From swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 1 01:15:57 1997 From: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 01:15:57 +0000 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031709.23782.12440050303026691835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may take note of the following poets in KANNADA to name only a few: 1. Kuvempu 2. Da Ra Bendre 3. K S Narasimhaswamy 4. G S Shivarudrappa With best wishes for your endeavour, Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji Taralabalu Kendra, Bangalore ---------- From: Andy McCord[SMTP:amccord at ibm.net] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:04 PM To: Members of the list Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets For South Asian entries in a Routledge biographical dictionary of 20th Centry poetry I am seeking advice for literatures I'm not familiar with. The entries are to be very short, giving dates and major works and life events. I expect they will not be able to include more than 15-20 poets from the Indian subcontinent. My list, from which some may have to be winnowed, so far includes Muhammad Iqbal & Faiz Ahmed Faiz (Urdu), Mahadevi Verma and Nirala (Hindi), Rabindranath Tagore (Bengali), Arun Mhatre (Marathi), and A.K. Ramanujan and Nissim Ezekiel (English). Any advice on who I have overlooked in these languages and who to look into for Tamil, Telegu, Kannada, Malyalam, Gujarati, Punjabi, etc., would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Andy McCord amccord at ibm.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2125 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 1 02:33:56 1997 From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 07:33:56 +0500 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031714.23782.4546638128918255611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may also consider Maithilisarana Gupta in the Hindi section Sunil On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Andy McCord wrote: > For South Asian entries in a Routledge biographical dictionary of 20th > Centry poetry I am seeking advice for literatures I'm not familiar with. > The entries are to be very short, giving dates and major works and life > events. I expect they will not be able to include more than 15-20 poets > from the Indian subcontinent. My list, from which some may have to be > winnowed, so far includes Muhammad Iqbal & Faiz Ahmed Faiz (Urdu), Mahadevi > Verma and Nirala (Hindi), Rabindranath Tagore (Bengali), Arun Mhatre > (Marathi), and A.K. Ramanujan and Nissim Ezekiel (English). Any advice on > who I have overlooked in these languages and who to look into for Tamil, > Telegu, Kannada, Malyalam, Gujarati, Punjabi, etc., would be greatly > appreciated. > > Thank you, > Andy McCord > amccord at ibm.net > > From cssetzer at mum.edu Fri Aug 1 16:31:10 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 11:31:10 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227031719.23782.3581281380606067546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In trying to clean up some Vedic etexts, I have noticed the following very strange anomaly and wonder if anyone can explain it to me and perhaps suggest a solution. In the font used to type the text, the conjunct character, kta, is character 160, which on a PC in Microsoft Word, at least with HP printer driver, is not a printing character. (Evidently, long ago HP used this for a printer control code and MS permanently removed it form use.) Therefore, all of the 160's in the text appear as a blank space. The strangeness comes in when I shift to another font for that portion of text. This font has the kta as character 134. Even though the character was entered in the original text as 160, it now shifts to 134 and appears correctly on the screen!!!!!!!!!! How can this be???? If I do a character search with the old font, all of the kta's appear as 160. If I search after changing fonts, no 160's appear and all of the kta's appear as 134's!!! Thanks for any help!! Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri Aug 1 18:40:57 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: 20th century Poets Message-ID: <161227031722.23782.9304698378558683724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Tamil, Bharatiyar and Bharatidasan must be included. After them, Kavimani Desigavinayagam Pillai, Namakkal Kavignar, Mahakavi Rudramurti etc., can be considered. For Malayalam, Vallathol Narayana Menon must be included. Then, Ayyappa Panicker, Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan, Satchidanandan etc can be considered. N. Ganesan From Sfauthor at aol.com Fri Aug 1 18:21:47 1997 From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 14:21:47 -0400 Subject: 20th Century Indian Poets Message-ID: <161227031721.23782.8009546340274138680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The most famous modern Telugu poet was Sri Sri. -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From silk at wmich.edu Fri Aug 1 18:57:05 1997 From: silk at wmich.edu (silk at wmich.edu) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 14:57:05 -0400 Subject: Qvarnstrom Message-ID: <161227031725.23782.1507536624522866771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to those colleagues who responded so kindly by sending me the email address of Olle Qvarnstrom, who must be the scholar for whom my friend is searching. I have passed on the relevant information, and hereby thank those friends and colleagues in cyberspace who make such scholarly cooperation not only possible, but a true pleasure. (It even makes me hope, in my more optimistic moments, that it will make the world a smaller place, and thus a more peaceful place. But perhaps that is asking too much from wires and silicon...?) Jonathan Silk SILK at wmich.edu From A.Bowles at latrobe.edu.au Fri Aug 1 05:14:34 1997 From: A.Bowles at latrobe.edu.au (Adam Bowles) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 15:14:34 +1000 Subject: Text references on 'kalasha/ kumbha/ ghaTa' Message-ID: <161227031715.23782.16044263360640889495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The poet Bhartrihari speaks of comparing breasts to golden jugs (kanakakalasha) in one of the poems from the Vairagya shataka. In D.D. Kosambi's edition of the Shatakatrayam it is poem number 159. The text runs as follows: stanau maa.msagranthii kanakakalashaav ity upamitau mukha.m shle.smaagaaram tad api ca shashaankena tulitam sravanmuutraklinna.m karivarakaraspardhi jaghanam aho nindya.m ruupa.m kavijanavishe.sair guru k.rtam Though this is obviously not a ritual text, perhaps it will be of some use to you? AB >Dear members of indology list > >I am working on the use and symbolism(s) of 'kalasha/kumbha/ghata' in the >ritual context. My main stress is on rituals the way they are executed >nowadays. My main three categories are=20 >1) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as recipient of different substances (purified >water, milky products,...) for ritual use; >2) the pot/ vessel/ jar used as (temporary) seat of a deity (male or female) >to be worshipped in this form; >3) The symbolism of an earthen pot explicitly broken during a ritual >(especially antyeshTi). > >Within such an 'All-over-India-topic' I would be very grateful to get some >further references of text material (sources or other) concerning the >following questions: > >a) references to passages dealing with the terms 'kalasha', 'kumbha' or >'ghaTa' in connection with their size/form and material (shilpa shAstras and >others); > >b) references to passages out of philosophical texts and subhAshya dealing >with the vessel/ pot/ jar as a metaphor/ symbol (Advaita and other= > traditions); > >c) passages to compare the vessel/pot/jar with the (human) body; > >d) references of texts/ ritual manuals - exept antyeshTi rituals - where the >breaking of a pot is explicitly described (and interpreted). > >Any hint to one or the other point is most welcome - thank you so much! > > >Marianna Kropf > > >**************************************************************************** >****** >Marianna Kropf >Universit=E4t Bern >Institut f=FCr Religionswissenschaft >L=E4nggassstrasse 51 >CH-3000 Bern 9 From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Fri Aug 1 13:58:37 1997 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 15:58:37 +0200 Subject: INDOEUROPEAN COURSES LISTED BY UNIVERSITIES (Fall 1997) Message-ID: <161227031717.23782.14371315047878464938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ********Apologies for any multiple postings******* The TITUS Project & the Indogermanische Gesellschaft present INDOEUROPEAN COURSES LISTED BY UNIVERSITIES (Fall 1997) See http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/idg-ws97.html From Andreas.Schuettler at Uni-Koeln.DE Sat Aug 2 12:28:09 1997 From: Andreas.Schuettler at Uni-Koeln.DE (Andreas Schuettler) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 97 14:28:09 +0200 Subject: Puranic Myths in Maun_i short story Message-ID: <161227031726.23782.8443767086603399855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need to identify a most probably puranic myths occuring in a Tamil short story of Maun_i entitled "Caavil piRanta ciruSTi (Creature Born in Death)". It narrates that Brahma is tired of creating wants to go for sleep and requests Vishnu to have a break in maintaining the world. Vishnu agrees but when the same request comes to Shiva he refuses. After quarrelling with Shiva Brahma goes to sleep leaving the world to its fate. When he wakes up from sleep and starts again creating he finds Shiva has not only destroyed all his former creations but also those he is going to create in future. Can anybody help me out with the detailed bibliographical data for this myth. I checked the table of contents of PuraaNa-translations but could'nt find out about this myths. Any information or hint is highly appreciated. Andreas Schuettler Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies University Cologne email: ami11 at rs1.rrz.uni-koeln.de From thillaud at unice.fr Sat Aug 2 14:16:21 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 97 16:16:21 +0200 Subject: How a buck/stag could have become a lion! Message-ID: <161227031729.23782.6130077325833639920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Palaniappa, Thinking about your problem, I've found a curious analogy in the greek mythology. In many occasions, the lion is closely associated with the boar: 1) Achilleus is breeded by the centaur Cheiron and this one give him to eat 'splankhnois leontOn kai suOn agriOn kai arktOn muelois' : 'with inwards of lions and wild swine and marrows of bears'. The splankhna are (heart, lungs, spleen, kidneys, liver), in the sacrifice, the part of the victim first spit-roasted (today's kokoretsi), the rest of the meat is boiled. 2) When Admetos would marry Alkestis, daughter of Pelias, he must, as an ordeal, yoke together a lion and a boar. Apollon (a great hunter) help him to do it. 3) When Adrastos, king of Argos, is searching husbands for his two daughters, an oracle said him to take a lion and a boar: he choose Tydeus and Polynikes for this reason (the two beasts were on their shields ?). 4) the epic give other examples in metaphors; preys in (IL. 11.292-3): hOs d'hote pou tis thErEtEr kunas argiodontas seuEi ep' agroterOi sui kapriOi Ee leonti 'as the hunter slip his white-toothed dogs against the boar, wild hog, or the lion'; or predators in (IL. 6.782-3): ..., leiousin eoikotes Omofagoisin E susi kaproisin, tOn te sthenos ouk alapadnon '..., to lions similar, raw-eater, or to boar-like hogs, their strength can't be weakened' (NB: raw-eater is not necessarily raw-meat-eater (gr. Omos = skr. Ama), the main idea is the wildness). But this is a strange association because: 1) in Greece, the lion is a mythical beast (Nemeus lion, first heraklean labour), not a common one as the boar. 2) the lion is not eatable! 3) the stag would be a better companion for the boar (the solitary males are both very dangerous preys for the hunter and killers of many dogs), but he is very rare in greek myths (except Akteon's one). The greek word leOn (gen. leontos) has the form of a present participe of a verb *lew- (mycenian instrumental 're-wo-pi'), a verb very close of the sanskrit rauti and, perhaps, has the first meaning 'roaring'. But the bell of the stag is the more tremendous sound in the forest (if you hear it one time, you'll never forget it)! Conclusion ? Some of the greek lions are perhaps stags. Remembering varAha and narasiMha, the last animal incarnations of Vishnu, an interresting problem, is'nt'it ? Hoping to help, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sat Aug 2 20:04:35 1997 From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 01:04:35 +0500 Subject: Udupi mathadhipati threatened with excommunication Message-ID: <161227031731.23782.7158164869103844492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Kannada-language daily newspaper Prajaavaa.ni yesterday (1.8.1997) reported the following: Sri Sugunendratirtha, the mathadhipati of Puttige Matha (one of the eight mathas founded by Madhvacharya which now have their headquarters in Udupi) is at present visiting the United States, where he has been invited by followers to spend his chaturmasya. This has led to an outcry among certain Maadhvas and also among a few of the other mathadhipati-s of the astamatha-s in Udupi, with Sri Vidyavarinidhitirtha, the head of Kaniyur Matha, threatening to have Sugunendratirtha excommunicated for visiting America, which by some is considered a forbidden act. Several years ago there was a precedent, when the then junior mathadhipati of Pejavara Matha, Sri Visvavijayatirtha, visited the United States and afterwards was excommunicated. It is reported that this former mathadhipati has now settled in Pittsburg as a priest. The newspaper report further mentions that Sri Sugunendratirtha will travel in North America and meet Canadian and American scholars (no names of persons or institutions are mentioned). Also on behalf of the more progressive members of that religious community, I would like to request those in North America who meet Sri Sugunendratirtha to explicitly express their appreciation of his visiting the continent - and perhaps, where appropriate, to make a public statement about the value of such visits by the highest clergy in the interest of furthering mutual understanding between people in different countries and on different continents, so that some signals from the liberal world outside India which takes an interest in Indian culture and religious thought may reach Udupi. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Mysore (India) e-mail zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in From cssetzer at mum.edu Sun Aug 3 21:42:08 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 16:42:08 -0500 Subject: beginning Bengali Message-ID: <161227031735.23782.3841208384104455265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The script of Bengali is slightly similar to Devanagari, but also quite different. I would not recommend learning anything "first" if Bengali is what you want to know. I have a book called "teach yourself Bengali" by D.F. hudson, published by The English Univerties Press, London. It looks quite good for a beginner. It seems to have good pronunciation aids and quite practical examples. Claude Setzer, cssetzer at mum.edu PS it was many years ago when I studied this, so my memory is vague, but the book is before me now and I remember it being good. ---------- > From: David R. Israel > To: Members of the list > Subject: beginning Bengali > Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 4:59 PM > > Esteemed scholars -- > > might anyone kindly recommend self-study programs in beginning > Bengali? -- preferably acomputer-based CD tutorial, or, > alternatively, a textbook-plus-cassette package, or something. > > Also (or alternatively), does there exist any sort of accellerated > 8-week (or whatever) course in the Bengali language, either at a > university or some private instituteion (prob. preferably in the > eastern United States)? > > Also, simple question: is the Bengali script altogether different than > the devanagari script used in Hindi? . . . -- relatedly: is it > especially recommended that one have some background in Hindi before > approaching Bengali?, or does a fresh dive into Bengali w/o any prior > indic-language study seem a plausible endeavor? (at least with the > goal of arriving at dictionary-aided reading ability) . . . > > advance thanks for attention to this (pre)-abecedarian query, > d.i. > . > ..... > ............ > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > david raphael israel < > >> washington d.c. << > | davidi at wizard.net (home) > | disrael at skgf.com (office) > ========================= > | thy centuries follow each other > | perfecting a small wild flower > | (Tagore) > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// > From davidi at mail.wizard.net Sun Aug 3 20:45:50 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 16:45:50 -0400 Subject: beginning Bengali Message-ID: <161227031733.23782.12354707811521006117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed scholars -- might anyone kindly recommend self-study programs in beginning Bengali? -- preferably acomputer-based CD tutorial, or, alternatively, a textbook-plus-cassette package, or something. Also (or alternatively), does there exist any sort of accellerated 8-week (or whatever) course in the Bengali language, either at a university or some private instituteion (prob. preferably in the eastern United States)? Also, simple question: is the Bengali script altogether different than the devanagari script used in Hindi? . . . -- relatedly: is it especially recommended that one have some background in Hindi before approaching Bengali?, or does a fresh dive into Bengali w/o any prior indic-language study seem a plausible endeavor? (at least with the goal of arriving at dictionary-aided reading ability) . . . advance thanks for attention to this (pre)-abecedarian query, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From amarjit at lij.edu Mon Aug 4 19:11:11 1997 From: amarjit at lij.edu (amarjit at lij.edu) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 97 14:11:11 -0500 Subject: Does Hinduism fall under Pantheism. Message-ID: <161227031737.23782.14830378043789977669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone clarify whether Hinduism is a Pantheistic religion. Why? Why not? Would appreciate any help. From davidi at mail.wizard.net Tue Aug 5 01:37:52 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 97 21:37:52 -0400 Subject: Does Hinduism fall under Pantheism. Message-ID: <161227031740.23782.15788181033882360118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amarjit asks: > Can someone clarify whether Hinduism is a Pantheistic religion. > Why? Why not? Would appreciate any help. no doubt one must define both "Hinduism" and "Pantheism" to do the subject justice (i.e., whose Hinduism? & whose Pantheism?) -- but -- promsing to be brief! -- perhaps the assembled scholars will look indulgently on an impromptu "general understanding of this stuff" manner of reply? -- Pantheism, I think, usually denotes (mainly) the presence of divinity (or, divinities) in all (hence, pan) embodied forms -- particularly, in the living forms of the manifest world -- trees, animals -- as well stones, stars, clouds -- in short, the universe -- Hinduism, by most reckonings, recognizes what might be called "both the manifest and unmanifest aspects of God" -- therefore, I'd say Hinduism both includes & transcends Pantheism. -- will allowing that there may be Hinduisms which are equivalent to (the thus-defined Panthesim), just as there might be Pantheisms that reach to the level of the (thus-suggested) Hinduism. Does that clarify? Meher Baba's Parvardigar Prayer -- while certainly syncretic in its lexicon & approach (especially, combining terms / categories / etc. of Hinduism, Sufism, and Zoroastrianism) -- has many lines rouching upon this business of the iminent & transcendent -- that is, it brings into focus what, in my view, is indeed present in Hinduism qua Hinduism (at least, certainly, the Hinduism of Ramakrishna, say) Here are a few (from memory -- ergo punctuation & capitalization [at least] may likely be somewhat awry) -- from said prayer: . . . . You are without beginning and without end, non-dual, beyond comparisoon, and none can measure you. You are without color, without expression, without form, and without attributes. You are unlimited and unfathomable, beyond imagination and conception, eteranal and imperishable. You are indivisible and none can see you but with eyes divine. You always were you always are and you always will be. You are everywhere, you are in everything, and you are also beyond everywhere and beyond everything. You are in the firmament and in the depths, you are manifest and unmanifest, on all planes and beyond all planes. You are in the three worlds and also beyond the three worlds. You are imperceiptible and independent . . . / / / / wonderful passages are found in the Gospel of Ramakrishna addressing questions generally cognate to this "panthism?" matter -- one could open the volume most anywhere, but certainly in the initial pages, where that great Hindu master chides his new student for taking a disparaging view of the stone-worshipping (pantheistic) aspects of devotional faith . . . this ia a large topic, and I've exceeded my promised pinch. The leraned can more usefully (re)cite chapter & verse of Shankara or Upanishads or for that matter the Gita, etc., on these themes. Consider the passage where Krishna reels out the spool of who-all he is. Both in the forms of the world (pantheism) and beyond them (transcendentalism) -- if one cares to view that list w/ such a "dualism" (or bifurcation) in mind . . . best, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Aug 5 22:16:53 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 15:16:53 -0700 Subject: Dhaatuko'sa Message-ID: <161227031743.23782.13331090008854800179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> W. Trimble wrote: >I am about to embark on a research project that looks at the importance of >the __Dhaatupaa.tha__ in the revival of Indian grammar. I will start with >the debate between Whitney and Bhandarkar and from there expand my >examination. My principal source has been Frits Staal's __Reader on the >Sanskrit Grammarians__: beyond that, I've not had much success. Any source >that muses on the Dhaatupa.tha would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. You should find G.B. Palsule's two books on the Dhatu-paa.thas, published by Deccan College, Poona/Pune, useful. They review the earlier work of Liebich etc. Bhagiiratha Prasaada Tripaa.thii (pen-name Vaagii;sa ;Saastri) also has a book in Sanskrit dealing with dhaatus. It is published by the Sampurnananda Sanskrit Univ., Varanasi. Dr. Ch. Werba (Indologisches Seminar, Wien/Vienna) is working on a considerably improved version of Whitney's _Roots._ (the project has several other important features too). A reference to George Cardona's Paa.nini: Survey of Research, if not already made, should be rewarding. From mfrstjsh at fs1.go.man.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 17:34:29 1997 From: mfrstjsh at fs1.go.man.ac.uk (Jacqueline Suthren Hirst) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 17:34:29 +0000 Subject: Paper Call: Creating the Future Message-ID: <161227031742.23782.7429123433656477735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dharam Hinduja Institute of Indic Research, University of Cambridge: Gender and Dharma Working Group Friday 3 and Saturday 4 July 1998 Creating the Future: the use and abuse of Indian role models today The 1998 DHIIR conference will explore ways in which textual and other normative role models have been used to provide paradigms for values and behaviour in contemporary Indian communities, both within and outside India today. Four main sections for the conference are envisaged: i) Textual sources for role models ii) Role models in popular culture and the arts (including a performance) iii) Transmitting role models to the next generation iv) Communalism and the use of role models Each section will contain two or three thirty minute papers (to include time for questions from the floor) with a further hour for chair's response and group discussion. Offers of papers on any of the above topics or on the general theme of the conference will be welcomed. The conference will take place in the University of Cambridge and all speakers will be provided with accommodation for up to two nights. Accommodation will also be available for partners, but this will not be funded by the conference organisers. At the moment, it is unlikely that funds will be available for travel expenses. Proceedings of previous DHIIR conferences are being published by Bayeux Arts, Calgary, and a similar volume will arise from this conference. Papers for the volume should be between 5000 and 10000 words and be ready for 30 September 1998. To offer a paper, please contact Dr Jacqueline Suthren Hirst, Dept of Religions and Theology, University of Manchester, M13 9PL, UK; e-mail: jacqueline.hirst at man.ac.uk; Fax: +44 (0)161 275 3613, sending name, address, phone no., fax or e-mail no, brief CV, topic and preliminary abstract by 10 Oct 1997. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Aug 6 05:36:05 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 21:36:05 -0800 Subject: Puranic Myths in Maun_i short story Message-ID: <161227031745.23782.3407695529897468566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Andreas Schuettler wrote: > I need to identify a most probably puranic myths occuring in a Tamil > short story of Maun_i entitled "Caavil piRanta ciruSTi (Creature Born > in Death)". It narrates that Brahma is tired of creating wants to go > for sleep and requests Vishnu to have a break in maintaining the world. > Vishnu agrees but when the same request comes to Shiva he refuses. > After quarrelling with Shiva Brahma goes to sleep leaving the world to > its fate. When he wakes up from sleep and starts again creating he > finds Shiva has not only destroyed all his former creations but also > those he is going to create in future. > Can anybody help me out with the detailed bibliographical data for this > myth. I checked the table of contents of PuraaNa-translations but > could'nt find out about this myths. Any information or hint is highly > appreciated. < Checking myths 7-8 in _Hindu Myths_ (Penguin Books) by Wendy Doniger (the last name is Doniger O'Flaherty on the first edition I have), along with the related myths mentioned in the annotation (pp. 315-16 in the 1975 edn I have before me), should be useful. The possibility that Maun_i's narrative could be a deliberate take-off on earlier narratives should be borne in mind. Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed Aug 6 14:31:22 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 09:31:22 -0500 Subject: A myth found in Mauni's short story Message-ID: <161227031749.23782.16346125394819371015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tamil stalapurANams are large and varied. About 600 of them, a total corpus of about 300,000 verses. Many printed talapuraaNams can be found in Maraimalai Adigal Library, UVS library, Roja Muttaiya library, TN archives etc., These "ceyyuL" works 12th century onwards largely remain untouched by modern scholarship. One reason is Dravidian movement which sees these works as useless:"For every ruin, there is a talapurANam. There is not a single bit of land where Indran or Chandran did not come seeking cure for a curse!". But as David Shulman and Bill Harman have pointed out,tamil talapurana tradition makes inversions and variants from myths of sanskrit. There are many instances where some myths are told that have no source in sanskrit. For reasons of authenticity, prestige, outright claims that this is from skAntam, chapter 11 & so on. which may not be true. Thanjavur district where temples and temple myths abound. Mauni is from that background. He might have told what he has heard as a child. I would think the source has to be sought in talapuranams or locally. Bharanidharan who wrote series on Tanjore temples called Tiruttalap Perumai (200+ essays) in Ananda Vikadan magazine, Vidhvan M. Shanmugam Pillai, Ta. Ca. Minakshisundaram Pillai (late) of Tiruvavaduthurai Adheenam might know this story and where it comes from. I am sure U. V. Saminathaiyar (late) or Kanchi Chandrasekharendra Sarasvathi (late) would know many of these myths. N. Ganesan From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Wed Aug 6 13:50:04 1997 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 14:50:04 +0100 Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <161227031747.23782.17341491412450836590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (posted earlier, a few times, but message somehow did not come through) On Saturday 5 July S. Palaniappan wrote: +++ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:12:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Palaniappa at aol.com To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <970705131246_472972654 at emout14.mail.aol.com> Can anybody give the correct translation of RV 10.146.6? I have seen four versions. "AraNyAnI is lauded by the worshipper as the mother of wild, the unctuous-scented, the fragrant, who fields abundance of food though has no hinds to till her." Translated by V. Muir "Now have I praised the Forest Queen, sweet-scented, redolent of balm, The Mother of all sylvan things, who tills not but hath stores of food." Translated by R. T. Griffith "Adorned with fragrant perfumes and balms, she needs not to toil for food. Mother of untamed forest beasts, Sprite of the wood, I salute you." by Translated by R. Panikkar "Now I have praised the Lady of the Forest, who is perfumed with balm, and fragrant, who is well-fed, although she tills not, the mother of all things of the wild." Translated by A. L. Basham Is there a translation accepted by Vedists as the best translation? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan +++ For the sake of completeness and as a supplement to D. Thillaud's reaction I point out that H.W. Bodewitz wrote an article entitled "Rgveda 10,146: the hymn to Ara.nyaanii" which was published in Dr. D.N. Shastri Felicitation Volume, Indological Studies, presented to Dr. Dharmendra Nath Shastri, in 85th year of his life by hi students, admirers and friends, dhief editor Keshav Ram Pal, Ram Nagar, Ghaziabad: Vimal Prakashan, 1982, pp. 3-15. Bodewitz (B.) discusses earlier views on this hymn and argues that Ara.nyaanii should not be seen as a female deity or even just as a forest-genius. It is rather a (poetic) personification. B. is mainly interested in verse 2 of this hymn (on which Thieme wrote in 1968 in Pratidaanam, Felicitation Volume F.B.J. Kuiper). On p. 6 of his article B. translates stanza 6 as follows: "I have praised the forest, the mother of the animals, who smells of cosmetics and is fragrant (like a young woman), the forest who yields much food though not being cultivated." It is perhaps interesting to note that ara.nyaanii as the feminine counterpart to ara.nya is for Bhart.rhari expressive of "greatness" (so: "a large forest or wilderness"), just as himaanii (counterpart of hima) means "mass of snow"), see Vaakyapadiiya 3.13.25 and Helaraaja's comm. Jan E.M. Houben From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Aug 6 19:39:20 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 21:39:20 +0200 Subject: Translation of RV 10.146.6 Message-ID: <161227031751.23782.323733051468492414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:00 +0200 6/08/97, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: >Bodewitz (B.) discusses earlier views on this hymn and argues that >Ara.nyaanii >should not be seen as a female deity or even just as a forest-genius. It is >rather a (poetic) personification. That could be an interresting subject to debate: what difference between 'female deity', 'forest-genius' and '(poetic) personification' ? I'm not sure this distinctions are pertinent in eurindian religions (I don't speak for others because I don't know them). 1) 'genius' is a latin word very hard to understand. 2) the literary expression of the religion is allways poetic. 3) to understand the word 'personification' we must first understand 'person'. The latin 'persona' is a theater mask, hence able to be an authentic God. Being a pagan (worshipper of the greek Pantheon) I feel this distinctions very 'monotheocentrist' and supposing the eurindian religions inferior and primitive. Have the Hinduists of the list the same feeling ? Classifying AraNyAnI is really a problem ? Dominique PS: evidently, that's not an attack against Jan E.M. Houben nor B. Bodewitz, just against some methods strongly influenced by the christianism in the studies of religions. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sohum at convex.cc.uky.edu Thu Aug 7 13:16:03 1997 From: sohum at convex.cc.uky.edu (SATHAYE AVINASH) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 09:16:03 -0400 Subject: A query about Sanskrit Prosody Message-ID: <161227031758.23782.13789184268321488402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Here is a query originally posed by D. Knuth. In Sanskrit prosody there are short syllables (la), long syllables (gA) and 8 gaNA's formed by the triples of these. There is a well known way of memorizing their names and definitions by the aphorism: ya-mA-tA-rA-ja-bhA-na-sa-la-gA The way to use this aphorism is: 1. the first letters list the names of the gaNA's 2. and the pattern is noted by the triple of syllables starting from it. For example, the gaNa "ya" has pattern ya-mA-tA or short-long-long. This clever way of getting all the 8 combinations is presented as an exercise in Computer Science books related to coding theory. (Not in relation to prosody, of course(:-)) The question is where and when was this wonderful device invented. Many people know this by word of mouth, but no reference has yet been located. Any clues? P.S. One can get even more clever by dropping the last la-gA part, but imagine the syllables arranged in a circle for the purposes of deducing the patterns. -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | And now, the next thought is from our CPU ... If you live to the age of a hundred you have it made because very few people die past the age of a hundred. -- George Burns From nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca Thu Aug 7 23:07:32 1997 From: nsalmond at ccs.carleton.ca (Noel Salmond) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 19:07:32 -0400 Subject: Query: the nine Rasas; what colours are associated? Message-ID: <161227031760.23782.14862921937994342450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:53 PM 8/7/97 BST, you wrote: >Dear list-members, > >I've been reading up on Indian aesthetic theories and I gather that each >rasa has its associated colour. So far I have - > the comic white > the furious red > the terrible black > the erotic blue-black >(from B. N. Goswamy, "Another past, another context: Exhibiting Indian >Art Abroad", in "Exhibiting Cultures", Eds Karp & Levine) > >However a literature search has failed to reveal any of the others. If anyone >knows the other colour associations I'd be very keen to hear from you. This >is of more than academic interest to me because I am a visual artist and want >to use this in a series of artworks. > >Thank you; Clare > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Clare Martin clare at coombs.anu.edu.au > PO Box 13 Tel: (06) 247 2397 > Ainslie +61 6 247 2397 > ACT 2602 > Australia > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Clare My notes remind me: rasa colour deity S.rn.gaara erotic: bluish black Vi.s.nu haasya comic: white Siva karu.na pathetic: ash colour Yama raudra furious: red Rudra viira heroic: light orange Indra bhayaanaka terrrible: black Kaala biibhatsa odious: blue Mahaakaala adbhuta marvellous: yellow Brahma Saanta peaceful: jasmine Naaraaya.na B.N. Goswamy did an exhibition catalog for the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco that was titled (1986) I think there's quite a bit of rasa theory in there and an attempt to correlate rasa theory with the visual arts. best wishes Noel Salmond Carleton University From chirmuley at senet.com.au Thu Aug 7 09:46:22 1997 From: chirmuley at senet.com.au (Dilip Chirmuley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 19:16:22 +0930 Subject: Kinbg Shaalivaahana Message-ID: <161227031753.23782.14189257277953747399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone provide information about King Shaalivaahana? Who he was before he became a king, when did he rule, his capital etc. Any stories about him and where I can find information about him. Thanks. From clare at coombs.anu.edu.au Thu Aug 7 11:39:04 1997 From: clare at coombs.anu.edu.au (Clare Martin) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 21:39:04 +1000 Subject: Query: the nine Rasas; what colours are associated? Message-ID: <161227031755.23782.15973124771150120447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I've been reading up on Indian aesthetic theories and I gather that each rasa has its associated colour. So far I have - the comic white the furious red the terrible black the erotic blue-black (from B. N. Goswamy, "Another past, another context: Exhibiting Indian Art Abroad", in "Exhibiting Cultures", Eds Karp & Levine) However a literature search has failed to reveal any of the others. If anyone knows the other colour associations I'd be very keen to hear from you. This is of more than academic interest to me because I am a visual artist and want to use this in a series of artworks. Thank you; Clare ---------------------------------------------------------- Clare Martin clare at coombs.anu.edu.au PO Box 13 Tel: (06) 247 2397 Ainslie +61 6 247 2397 ACT 2602 Australia ---------------------------------------------------------- From gldnreef at primenet.com Sat Aug 9 16:28:46 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 97 09:28:46 -0700 Subject: Dhatupatha Message-ID: <161227031762.23782.18373114839762295334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:24 PM 8/8/97 +0100, Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: >What do you mean by "revival of Indian grammar"? Which period are you >talking about? Perhaps I have not correctly understood the aim of your >research project. Dear Sir: More generally, I am interested in the criticism of the native Indian grammatical tradition by philologists in the C. IXX which culminated in the radical empiricism of W.D. Whitney in the 1880's. At that time his masterful __Grammar__ was used by Indian students in school and university. A number of Indian scholars began to see that "grammar is not an empirical study among the Hindus" (Bhandarkar) and began to write their own Paninian, Sanskrit grammars in the English language. This coincides with many other socio-religious revivalist efforts in the late C. IXX and early C. XX. I would like to concentrate my research on the heated debate over the Dhaatupatha and the value, accuracy (and even veracity!) of nirukta in specific and vyaakara.na in general. On a deeper level, I am interested in the philosophical strains underneath these postures. Whitney was a collegue of the pragmatist William James and, I believe, Charles Pierce as well. I wonder to what extent the conflict between Whitney and Boethlingk, for example, embodies the differences between Hegelian idealism and Anglo/American analytics. On the Indian side, what underlies the opposition to a pragmatic approach when there are certainly pragmatic elements to grammar (Panini: "lokavij~naanaat siddhi")? Is a word given more denotative power when it has an elabourate etymology or is, with other words, decended from a verbal root? I hope this explaination elicits more responses. Thanks very much to Mr.s Aklujkar and Bronkhorst for what they have already provided. Yours, Walker Trimble From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Mon Aug 11 14:04:59 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:04:59 -0400 Subject: TOC & CFP & APPEAL: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Message-ID: <161227031764.23782.10347381521935057233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CONTENTS VOLUME 1, NUMBER 2, AUGUST 1997 (available in about 4 weeks) ARTICLES: When Rahu devours the moon: The myth of the birth of Krsna Caitanya ~ 221-64 Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University The yogi and the Goddess ~ 265-87 Nicholas F. Gier, University of Idaho Jaina ideology and early Mughal trade with Europeans ~ 288-313 Ellison Banks Findly, Trinity College Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part II of III: The imperative of the wish ~ 314-36 Dan W. Forsyth, University of Southern Colorado What's a God? The quest for the right understanding of devata in Brahmanical ritual theory (mimamsa) ~ 337-85 Francis X. Clooney, Boston College Radhakrishnan as advocate of the class/caste system as a universal religio-social system ~ 386-400 Robert N. Minor, University of Kansas BOOK REVIEWS AND NOTICES, ~ 401-20 ABOUT THE JOURNAL & CALL FOR PAPERS The aim of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is to examine Hinduism centrally and in a special way. It wishes to consider Hinduism analytically and comparatively as a "form of life" as clarified by its contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms. This is to say that we will be less concerned with the intrinsic forms of Hinduism and its history, as illuminated by philological and descriptive studies. Rather, our focus will be, on the one hand, on Hinduism's adaptations to a wide range of historical circumstances and ecological, economic, and political possibilities and, on the other, on the Hindu forms that work "on the ground" in particular places and times to generate special kinds of social, cultural, and psychological order and problems. We consider this to be necessarily a comparative exploration and welcome (and need) contributions from scholars in other fields who wish to bring their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into dialogue with Hindu studies. We equally encourage South Asia scholars to explore such perspectives in their own work. We wish to explore whether it may be productive to ask--in addition to the descriptive "_What_ is Hinduism?"--the theoretical question (or questions, for we expect there is a large and productive set of answers) "_Why_ is Hinduism the way it is?" The Journal, therefore, invites submissions of a comparative or theoretical nature in all fields of the social sciences and humanities in the hope of furthering a dialogue that centers on one of the great human creations, Hinduism, which differs in so many respects from the religions and societies that have informed much of classical Western thought. Articles falling within the broad and deliberately somewhat vague boundaries we envisage will be chosen on the basis of the quality, importance and general interest of the research, the force of theoretical argument, and felicity of expression. Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be sent to the Journal's editorial office: Sushil Mittal, Editor, _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, International Institute of India Studies, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Tel (514) 771-0213, Fax (514) 771-2776, Email . Books for review and correspondence concerning reviews should be sent to: Carl Olson, Review Editor, _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, Department of Religious Studies, Allegheny College, Meadville, Pennsylvania 16335-3902, USA. Tel (814) 332-3313, Fax (814) 333-8180, Email _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ (ISSN 1022-4556) is published three times a year in April, August, and December. Annual subscription rates: Institutional: $150 (North America); $156 (Rest of world). Individual: $60 (North America); $66 (Rest of world). Students: $30 (North America); $36 (Rest of world). Orders from outside Canada must be paid in US dollars. Prices include postage. To order a subscription, to receive advertising information, or to reserve ad space in the Journal, contact World Heritage Press, Journals Department, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Tel (514) 771-0213, Fax (514) 771-2776. JOURNAL HOMEPAGE Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal homepage at: . The site includes a statement of aims and scope, list of editors, information for prospective contributors, reviewers, subscribers, and advertisers. Also includes contents, abstracts, and information about authors for each issue as published, and plans for upcoming issues. APPEAL Currently the International Institute of India Studies and World Heritage Press are engaged in a subscription drive on behalf of _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. If you like what we are doing please help us obtain new subscribers. Please encourage your colleagues and students and get your library to subscribe to _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Institutional subscriptions are a key to success for a journal. Every subscription counts!!! Many thanks in advance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Mon Aug 11 15:17:09 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 18:17:09 +0300 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia (cont'd) Message-ID: <161227031766.23782.1305053184384350585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About a week ago I circulated an appeal on behalf of Acta Orientalia that this journal is at risk of ceasing publication. This original message will be repeated at the end for those who may not have seen it or have lost it. In the meanwhile I have received several responses, and in some of them I have been encouraged to list the contents of some recent issues to illustrate the relevance of this journal to potential subscribers. It was also pointed out that I forgot to mention (in most of my messages) that this is a refereed journal that has always retained a very high quality of scholarship. A third point occasioned by the replys: please note that there exists also another journal with exactly the same name (at least as far as the main title is concerned), namely ACTA ORIENTALIA Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, published from Budapest and now in its 48th vol. (1995). The ACTA ORIENTALIA now in danger is published from Copenhagen, its ISSN is 0001-6438 and the latest issue is vol. 57 (1996). It has the following contents (diacritical marks ignored): Acta Orientalia 57 (1996) Frede Lokkegaard: Rough treatment without an instrument (pp. 7-12) Raju Kalidos: Nataraja as portrayed in the Tevaram hymns (pp. 13-56) Claus Oetke: "Nihilist" and "non-nihilist" interpretations of Madhyamaka (pp. 57-104) Peter Schalk: A. J. Wilson on Tantai celva (pp. 105-115) Roy Andrew Miller: Language, linguistics and Japanology (pp. 116-140) Poul Andersen: Taoist talismans and the history of the Tianxin tradition (pp. 141-152) Book reviews (pp. 153-294) Earlier issues: Acta Orientalia 56 (1995) Editorial (p. 7) Obituaries: Soren Egerod (1923-1995), by Poul Mohr (pp. 9-15) E. R. Sreekrishna Sarma (1922-1994), by Asko Parpola (pp. 16-24) Nils Simonsson (1920-1994), by Gunilla Gren-Eklund (pp. 25-27) Carl Suneson (1941-1995), by W. L. Smith (pp. 28-30) Articles: Philippe Provencal: Note on the zoological identification of the birds named Bulbul, 'Andalib and Hazar in Arabic and their translation / zoological identification in some dictionaries (pp. 31-38) Francois de Blois: The 'Sabians' (Sabi'un) in pre-Islamic Arabia (pp. 39-61) Andrey Korotayev: Middle Sabaean cultural-political area: Qayls and their tribesmen, clients and maqtawIs (pp. 62-77) Mohamed Meouak: Representations, emblemes et signes de la souverainete politique des Umayyades d'al-Andalus d'apres les textes arabes (pp. 78-105) Thomas Oberlies: Arjunas Himmelreise und die Tirthayatra der Pandavas (pp. 106-124) W. L. Smith: Changing bodies: The mechanics of the metamorphic curse (pp. 125-143) Annette L. Heitmann: Er?rterungen zum Begriff "Gnosis" (jnana) (pp. 144-161) Siegbert Hummel: Neues Material zur Sprache von Zhang-Zhung (pp. 162-168) Albrecht Wezler: German research in Nepal (pp. 169-172) Poul Andersen: Cults and liturgical frameworks: Religious revival in southern Fujian (pp. 173-183) Jaakko Hameen-Anttila: Oral vs. written: Some notes on the Arabian Nights (pp. 184-192) Book reviews (pp. 193-345) Acta Orientalia 55 (1994) Abdelmadjid Allaoua: La question du sujet nul et la fonction sujet en berbere (pp. 7-22) Daniel E. Gershenson: Understanding Puskansa (pp. 23-36) Hamid Dadkhah: A Judeo-Persian medical manuscript (pp. 37-41) Andrey Korotayev: Legal system of the Middle Sabaean cultural-political area (pp. 42-54) Wael B. Hallaq: Murder in Cordoba: Ijtihad, Ifta' and the evolution of substantive law in medieval Islam (pp. 55-83) Jaakko Hameen-Anttila: On the personal library of 'Abdal-qadir al-Baghdadi (pp. 84-101) Georg Buddruss: Epilegomena zu einem Baloci-Glossar (pp. 102-105) A. K. Singh: An inscribed bronze Padmapani from Kinnaur (pp. 106-111) Jens Braarvig: The practice of the Bodhisattvas: Negative dialectics and provocative arguments (pp. 112-160) Siegbert Hummel: Die Lieder der unglucklichen Konigin Sad-mar-kar (pp. 161-173) Tor Ulving: A new reconstruction of the Old Chinese sound system (pp. 174-186) Book reviews (p. 187ff.) Acta Orientalia 54 (1993) Manfred Schretter: Sumerische Phonologie: Zu Konsonantenverbindungen und Silbenstruktur (pp. 7-30) Abdelmadjid Allaoua: Les verbes de qualite et quelques remarques sur les pronoms personnels en berbere (pp. 31-45) Jaakko Hameen-Anttila: The lost ragaz of Abu'n-Nagm on the defeat of Yazid ibn al-Muhallab by Maslama ibn 'Abdalmalik (pp. 46-52) Herbert Eisenstein: Zu dre nordeuropaischen Tieren aus Ibn Sa'id's Geographie (pp. 53-61) David A Nelson: OIA kumbakurira - "horned headdress" (pp. 62-67) Raju Kalidos: The twain-face of Ardhanari (pp. 68-106) Per Kvaerne: A bibliography of the works of Siegbert Hummel: Supplement (pp. 107-112) Per Kvaerne & Elliot Sperling: Preliminary study of an inscription from Rgyal-rong (pp. 113-125) Vibeke Bordahl: "Wu Song fights the tiger" in Yangzhou storytelling (pp. 126-149) Lone Takeuchi: Long-term developments in the Japanese aspect-tense system: A case of linguistic drift? (pp. 150-174) Book reviews (p. 175ff.) Acta Orientalia 53 (1992) John Strange: The Arabian Gulf in antiquity (pp. 7-20) Jaakko Hameen-Anttila: An early Arabic loan from Persian (pp. 21-27) Karl Hadank: Zur Einteilung westiranischer Sprachen (pp. 28-75) Rodolphe Kasser: Le Premier Homme (celui du commencement): Troisieme chant de Thom le Manicheen (pp. 76-85) Erik Reenberg Sand: The Bhimamahatmya: A hitherto unpublished source for the study of Pandharpur (pp. 86-105) Jens Ostergard Petersen: On the expressions commonly held to refer to Sun Wu, the putative author of the Sunzi Bingfa (pp. 106-121) Jens Ostergard Petersen: The Taiping jing and the AD 102 clepsydra reform (pp. 122-158) Torbjorn Loden: A review article of Knud Lundbaek: T. S. Bayer (1694-1738), pioneer Sinologist (pp. 159-168) Book reviews (p. 169ff.) Acta Orientalia 52 (1991) Bo Dahl Hermansen: Ancient Egypt in Barry Kemp's perspective (pp. 7-34) Joyce Akesson: The strong verb and infinitive noun in Arabic (pp. 35-48) Wael B. Hallaq: Ibn Taymiyya on the existence of God (pp. 49-69) Harry Falk: Zur Geschichte von Lumbini (pp. 70-90) James A. Matisoff: Jiburish revisited: Tonal splits and heterogenesis in Burmo-Naxi-Lolo checked syllables (pp. 91-114) Halvor Eifring: Chinese conditionals of comparison (pp. 115-134) Vibeke Bordahl: 'Square mouth' and 'round mouth' in Yangzhou storytelling (pp. 135-147) Roy A. Miller: Japanese and Austronesian: A review article of Paul K. Benedikt: Japanese Austro-Tai (pp. 148-168) Book reviews (pp. 169ff.) I apologize for not giving the final page numbers of the book reviews - I have only copies of the tables of contents at hand now. Here follows my original appeal: ACTA ORIENTALIA, a journal founded in 1922 and published annually under the auspices of the Oriental Societies of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, is devoted to the study of the languages, history, archaeology and religions of the Orient from the earliest times to our days. It is issued once a year, and each issue normally contains at least 300 pages. This well-known refereed journal is now on the verge of ceasing publication. The Nordic Publications Board for Humanistic Periodicals funding the journal has stipulated that a conditio sine qua non is that the journal has a minimum of 200 subscribers. Due to tightening budgets the world over, the number of subscriptions has been steadily dropping and is now very close to that limit. If your library is not already subscribing to Acta Orientalia, please make a suggestion to that effect. The annual subscription rate is 420 Danish crowns (DKK) (around 70 USD), and the subscription order can be placed at MUNKSGAARD International Publishers Ltd, POB 2148, DK-1016 Copenhagen K, Denmark (tel. +45 33 12 70 30, fax +45 33 12 93 87) or at their regional office in the US: MUNKSGAARD, 238 Main Street, Cambridge, MA 02142-9740 (tel +1-617-547-7665, fax +1-617-547-7489). Every subscription counts!!! Thanks in advance for your efforts to help AO survive. Yours, Asko Parpola Professor of South Asian Studies University of Helsinki From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Tue Aug 12 10:40:21 1997 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 12:40:21 +0200 Subject: Sem: TOCHARIAN Message-ID: <161227031769.23782.5988196869201309833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Blockseminar: G. Pinault (Professeur ` l'Universiti de Clermont-Ferrand - Directeur ` l'IPHI IVe ) Einf|hrung TOCHARISCH FU Berlin, 22.-26.Sept.1997 http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/colloq.htm#berlin97 From magier at columbia.edu Tue Aug 12 17:28:45 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: Bill Gates & India Message-ID: <161227031772.23782.6965508975768060332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For your information, the current issue (August 18, 1997) of Fortune magazine has an article (Pp.214-218) by Brent Schlender, entitled "Microsoft, First America, Now the World" which is all about Bill Gates' investments and activities in India. The online version of the article can be viewed at: http://www.pathfinder.com/@@Q3N7vwcAUfin1naG/fortune/1997/970818/smanaging.html David Magier Columbia University From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Aug 12 11:04:22 1997 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 14:04:22 +0300 Subject: On leave Message-ID: <161227031770.23782.5977586352041791623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I will be on research leave until January, 1998. During this period I can be reached at my usual mailing, fax and email addresses, however I will not be available at my usual telephone number. During this period I will also discontinue my subscription to this list. I look forward to rejoining it in January. With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From magier at columbia.edu Tue Aug 12 20:32:09 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 16:32:09 -0400 Subject: url for Fortune article Message-ID: <161227031774.23782.5023882271209218814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for Jim Wilce for pointing out the correct URL for the Fortune magazine article (on Bill Gates in India) that I mentioned earlier. The correct url is: http://www.pathfinder.com/@@yat1ZwcAXfjSlHP@/fortune/1997/970818/fea.html David Magier From athr at loc.gov Wed Aug 13 11:05:10 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 07:05:10 -0400 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia : backfiles? Message-ID: <161227031784.23782.17413636771808000506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asko, Library of Congress's run is incomplete. Are back issues from several years ago still available? A sudden request for backfiles might help. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed Aug 13 15:04:34 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 10:04:34 -0500 Subject: A Wounded Literature Message-ID: <161227031779.23782.11065038313540303732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read an article from The Hindu. Here are some excerpts. The arguments are forceful for putting more Western emphasis on the literatures from modern North and South Indian languages. For the complete article, see The Hindu website. N. Ganesan [THE HINDU] Sunday, July 06, 1997 The case of a wounded literature K. Satchidanandan ************************* The critical tools of the majority of our Anglophile critics, I fear, are hardly adequate to grasp the civilisational significance of hundreds of rich, complex and stimulating works of every genre in the Indian languages that they may choose to qualify, either as ''vernaculars``, a term with implied derision for the ''natives`` inherited from the colonial masters or as ''regional languages``, a term that vainly imagines the existence of some other ''Indian`` language and slyly hints at the pan- Indian appeal of Indian writing in English and silently asserts its hegemonic role. Let me make it clear that I have nothing against Indian writing in English which I consider a legitimate product of our historical and existential conjuncture, a genuine expression of our profound post-colonial civilisational crisis, for what can be a greater crisis to a civilisation than to have to seek articulations in the coloniser`s own tongue? Only I am unwilling to concede to it, the centrality it seems to claim: it is but a peripheral region of Indian literature and there is an obvious disparity between the publicity it attracts and its literary quality and ability to reflect our social as well as spiritual lives. It is the politics the power-knowledge nexus behind Indian writing in English that has attracted greater criticism than the writing itself. *********** The belief that subaltern can speak only in English or in Sanskrit (''The Encyclopaedia of Post-Colonial Literatures in English`` has a long entry on Sanskrit literature, but none on the living languages of India) is certainly more than a joke since it has disastrous political implications in our context which is a strange juncture of neo-colonialism and religious revivalism. That some academics like Harish Trivedi, Meenakshi Mukherjee and Arun P. Mukherjee have begun to realise these dangers is evident from their entries in the recently published collection of seminar-papers, ''Interrogating Post-Colonialism: Theory, Text and Context.`` Colonial intervention had in fact been a major blow to Indian literatures in that it privileged Sanskrit and Perso-Arabic over the modern Indian languages. Earlier a poet like Kabir had found Sanskrit ''the stagnant water of the Lord`s private well`` while the spoken language was ''the rippling water of the running stream.`` This perception of the medieval saint poets many of whom were the founders of native poetic traditions was subverted by the British who drew on a completely invented ''tradition`` to legitimate and endorse ''modernisation.`` Lord Minto ignored all literatures in modern Indian languages to assert that science and literature in India were ''in a progressive state of decay.`` The General Council of Education in India found Indian literatures to be ''profane`` ''immoral`` and ''impure``, and Sir Richard Temple found them ''scanty`` and ''obsolete.`` Thus began the colonial project for the creation of a ''national`` literature for India through translations of Sanskrit and Arabic classics into English and of English ''classics`` into Indian languages. Charles Trevelyan had found ''The diversity among languages`` to be ''one of the greatest existing obstacles to improvement in India.`` The British with their monolingual and monoreligious culture were unable to comprehend the multi-lingual, multi-religious culture of India. ***************************** The insurrectionary Dalit writing, most visible in languages like Marathi and Gujarati and emerging into visibility in Telugu, Tamil and Kannada, for example, attempts to define difference in terms of caste. Thirty centuries of silent suffering a whole ''culture of silence`` lie behind their articulations of indignant subalternity. They have succeeded in redrawing the literary map in their languages by exploring a whole new continent of experience as also by revitalising language with styles, tones, timbers, words and phrases so far kept out of literary use. They compel critics to re-examine their canons, challenge the fixed and stale social modes of looking at reality and ordering knowledge, beauty and power and subvert the age-old aesthetic principles of what they qualify as ''Brahminist poetics`` with dhwani, rasa and oucitya at the centre. They are ideologically heterogeneous as they have ambivalent relationships with Buddha, Gandhi and Ambedkar. Their poems and stories are invocations of cultural memory while their autobiographies unearth a whole buried realm of oppressive experience. The achievements of Dalit literature seem most evident in poetry as in the poems of Narayan Surve, Namdeo Dhasal, Keshav Meshram or Mallika Amar Sheikh of Marathi, Yoseph Macwan or Pravin Gadhvi of Gujarati or Siddhalingaiah of Kannada to cite only a few writers attempting to form an alternative aesthetics of social combat. ***************************************** From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Aug 13 09:05:23 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 11:05:23 +0200 Subject: the karNa's plate Message-ID: <161227031786.23782.12483531652187539501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I'm unable to find in the mahAbhArata the passage where indra take the gold plate of karNa (and when the idea comes in his mind). Can someone help me ? Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Aug 13 15:33:15 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 17:33:15 +0200 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia (cont'd) Message-ID: <161227031781.23782.3054332726651185296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I used to look through several copies of the journal and it's seems to me I know the >reason of today's state of things. The main problem is that the content of this journal is >not interesting: many articles on the same matters are available in other journals. Natural- >ly, nobody wants to get the same information twice. As far as I know, ALL journals dealing with oriental studies will necessarily contain the same kind of material. Acta Orientalia is just as interesting - or uninteresting - as other oriental journals. But it is the only oriental journal published by the Nordic countries (or rather by Denmark). Which is why some of us want to keep it. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru Thu Aug 14 00:50:36 1997 From: dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru (dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 17:50:36 -0700 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia (cont'd) Message-ID: <161227031777.23782.4353348791966807863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, I used to look through several copies of the journal and it's seems to me I know the reason of today's state of things. The main problem is that the content of this journal is not interesting: many articles on the same matters are available in other journals. Natural- ly, nobody wants to get the same information twice. Truthly Yours, Tattvarthi. dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru Institute for Oriental Studies (St.Petersburg) From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Wed Aug 13 15:36:41 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 18:36:41 +0300 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia (cont'd) Message-ID: <161227031783.23782.2576217124035036218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Sir, > > I used to look through several copies of the journal and it's seems to >me I know the >reason of today's state of things. The main problem is that the content of >this journal is >not interesting: many articles on the same matters are available in other >journals. Natural- >ly, nobody wants to get the same information twice. > > > Truthly Yours, > Tattvarthi. dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru > > Institute for Oriental Studies (St.Petersburg) Do you mean that many articles in Acta Orientalia plagiarize articles in other journals?? Please give concrete examples! Asko Parpola From adrian.burton at anu.edu.au Wed Aug 13 12:36:53 1997 From: adrian.burton at anu.edu.au (adrian.burton at anu.edu.au) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 22:36:53 +1000 Subject: Shrikrishna Patil Message-ID: <161227031776.23782.1049507441315067264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the e-mail address of Shrikrishna Patil, resident of Cupertino CA and developer of a group of South Asian fonts in collaboration with Avinash Chopde? Two years ago his address was sapatil at aol.com, but now that address does not respond. Merci d'avance _______________________________________________________________ Adrian Burton South and West Asia Centre Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au Faculty of Asian Studies +61-6-279 8241 Australian National University From HFArnold at aol.com Thu Aug 14 05:01:00 1997 From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 01:01:00 -0400 Subject: beginning Bengali Message-ID: <161227031788.23782.8060422039748688330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/3/97 8:56:31 PM, david raphael israel wrote: <> I used Teach Yourself Bengali by William Radice to learn the Bengali script. I only worked through the lessons on the script, but I also learned a bit of the Bengali language in the process. The book is so well structured that I wished that I had had the time to continue to learn the language. Teach Yourself Bengali is available with or without two cassettes. I recommend it highly. From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com Thu Aug 14 10:28:59 1997 From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 06:28:59 -0400 Subject: beginning Bengali Message-ID: <161227031796.23782.15040083945400478359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are there any shareware Bengali TrueType fonts available? --ralph From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Aug 14 12:19:44 1997 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 07:19:44 -0500 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031798.23782.14232884193394306063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To John Power's student interested in _the role of faith in Hinduism_: Another angle I would recommend, with questions of _faith_ bearing on contending theories/theologies of _Grace_, is Raja Rao's novel, _The Cat and Shakespeare_. (Pardon, the incomplete citation). As you may know, it is said that the Vaisnava (?) parallel to the Christian debate over Predestination vs Free Will turns on the motif of mother love: does one have faith in an all-controlling Divine that carries one, like it or not/unmerited favor, by the scruff of the neck, or must one hold on for dear life, like the baby monkey? Michael Rabe Assoc. Prof. South Asian Art History Saint Xavier University & The School of the Art Institute of Chicago >A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith >in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't >think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd >greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my >student. > >John Powers >Faculty of Asian Studies >Australian National University Raja Rao. Title: Cat and Shakespeare From davidi at mail.wizard.net Thu Aug 14 13:03:45 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 09:03:45 -0400 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031799.23782.12472755028784294010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to John Power's query abt. "faith (if any) in Hinduism" -- one suggestion was relationship between knowledge & faith. On the other hand, isn't faith more typically an attribute of devotion than of knowledge? It seems that in Hinduism generally, there's long been a central bifurcation between the "path of knowledge" [jnana marga] and the "path of devotion" [bhakti marga] -- each having its own differing emphasis. To get an appreciation of the role of faith (among a little cluster of attributes of loving dependency) in devotional subjectivity (so to say), John's student might wish to consult some variety of texts of devotional poetry (and/or scripture) -- whether (say) the Rama Charita Manasa of Tulsidas, or the faith-suffused poems of Mira Bai, or the remarkable Saivite verses translated by Ramanujan in *Speaking of Siva* (or the Vaishnava verses translated by the same in *Hymns for the Drowning*) -- or, even, the *Bhaja Govindam* of Shankaracharya . . . likewise, *The Gospel of Ramakrishna* would surely seem a rich source for some overview of this topic . . . In general, faith implies (I think) a glimmer of existence that exceeds the grasp of direct knowledge -- which likewise seems to describe the experience of devotion. Thus, I'd think one would look into Bhakti literature generally, for evidence of faith & investigation into its role. If there is real knowledge, there's no need for faith -- one knows. Where direct knowledge is absent, faith becomes significant & needful. The relationiship & interplay & balance between the devotional & the knowledge approach in Hinduism seems a major teeter-totter (fulcrum) -- explicitly in the culture of Hinduism. I also suspect that some of Swami Vivekananda's myriad astute essays may well cover issues of faith interestingly . . . -- (all the more so since his tendancy of mind was not toward "blind faith" per se . . . ) so there are a few scattershot thoughts & poss. lines of investigation, for what worth -- best, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Thu Aug 14 08:55:28 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 09:55:28 +0100 Subject: the karNa's plate Message-ID: <161227031791.23782.11754954362103904321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Dear Indologists, > I'm unable to find in the mahAbhArata the passage where indra take > the gold plate of karNa (and when the idea comes in his mind). It's first told very briefly in critical edition 1.104. Then the background is given in 3.240, and the story itself is narrated at proper length in 3.284-94. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Thu Aug 14 10:37:51 1997 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 11:37:51 +0100 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031793.23782.1168926345752525220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith >in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't >think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd >greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my >student. > >John Powers >Faculty of Asian Studies >Australian National University Does "faith" include "knowledge"? Knowledge is, of course, indispensable in order to obtain liberation in various classical schools of Hinduism. Johannes Bronkhorst Lausanne From mgansten at sbbs.se Thu Aug 14 10:50:43 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:50:43 +0200 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031794.23782.16441096377437121460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does "faith" include "knowledge"? Knowledge is, of course, indispensable in >order to obtain liberation in various classical schools of Hinduism. I'm sure John has already thought of this, but there is of course some mention of these topics in the Bhagavadgita, for instance towards the end of the fourth chapter: 'sraddhaavaal labhate j?aana.m tatpara.h sa.myatendriya.h ... aj?a's caa'sraddadhaana's ca sa.m'sayaatmaa vina'syati -- etc. Perhaps something useful can be found in the various commentaries to these passages? Martin Gansten From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu Thu Aug 14 17:12:06 1997 From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 13:12:06 -0400 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031803.23782.1312897621142626700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Powers wrote: >A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith >in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't >think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd >greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my >student. As has already been noted, the answer to your query, John, depends somewhat on how you are using "faith." If by "faith" you mean the type of piety associated with devotionalism, then your student might best examine Bhakti in Indian traditions. The term "research project" suggests that your student may not be terribly advanced, and a study of bhakti would probably be easier for such a student, as opposed to a study of the use of "sraddhaa or abhisampratyaya in philosophical contexts. There are quite a few materials in English that treat devotionalism in Hinduism, and although I am a pramaa.na-wallah by inclination and training, I've been exposed (with considerable enjoyment) to a number of these works. On Tamil "Saiva devotionalism, Glenn Yocum's _Hymns to the Dancing "Siva_ is an excellent work, and it is accessible to those unfamiliar with the source languages (Yocum's book may be hard to obtain; it was published by South Asia Books, 1982). John Carman and Vasudha Narayanan have produced a volume called _The Tamil Veda : Pillan's interpretation of the Tiruvaymoli_, a study of the Nammalvar's famous opus. The pre-publication ms. I read some time ago included an extensive introduction and notes. Naryanan's _The Way and the Goal_ covers a similar theme. Of course, the best known work on Nammalvar's tradition of Vai"snava devotionalism is A.K. Ramanujan's _Hymns to the Drowning_, which is a good read even if one has no particular interest in the topic. Ramanujan also came out with a companion volume on "Saiva bhakti (primarily not Tamil) entitled, _Speaking of "Siva_. Both of Ramanujan's works contain excellent introductions/afterwords and explanations of the brilliantly translated poetry. Julius Lipner's _The Face of Truth_ is a serious philosophical examination of the theology of Raamaanuja's (the paramaguru of vi"si.s.taadvaita); Raamaanuja's work is the philosophical counterpart of Tamil Vai"snava devotionalism. A work that focuses on more recent forms of Hinduism is C.J. Fuller's _The Camphor Flame_. I have not had an opportunity to read it as yet, but it comes highly recommended. As I recall, the approach is somewhat more anthropological. Fuller's work does include an extensive bibliography, which may point you to other useful sources. As I suggested above, for many students "faith" in Hinduism amounts to devotionalism, and if this is the area that your student wishes to pursue, the sources listed above should be helpful. There are, however, many other works on this topic (including some on North Indian bhakti--the works I listed focus on the south); you may be able to find a bibliography at the RISA-L website. Let me know if you have difficulty finding the site. svaasti ________________________ John Dunne Study Of Religion Harvard University From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Aug 14 18:22:08 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 14:22:08 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227031807.23782.3872004546547813738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Happy Independence Day, BhArata From John.Powers at anu.edu.au Thu Aug 14 04:26:15 1997 From: John.Powers at anu.edu.au (John.Powers at anu.edu.au) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:26:15 +1100 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031789.23782.2994109077235674285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my student. John Powers Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University From jehms at globalxs.nl Thu Aug 14 17:40:52 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 18:40:52 +0100 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031801.23782.8949215532747624976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 14-aug-97 schreef John.Powers at anu.edu.au: >A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith >in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't >think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd >greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my >student. >John Powers >Faculty of Asian Studies >Australian National University Maybe 'A Philosophy of Devotion' from John C. Plott - Motilal Banarsidas, Delhi 1974 and for the erotic aspects: 'The place of the hidden moon, from Edward C. Dimock jr. - Chicago U.P.1966 From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Aug 14 23:43:02 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 19:43:02 -0400 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031809.23782.3872000290505695099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-08-14 08:23:14 EDT, mrabe at artic.edu writes: << As you may know, it is said that the Vaisnava (?) parallel to the Christian debate over Predestination vs Free Will turns on the motif of mother love: does one have faith in an all-controlling Divine that carries one, like it or not/unmerited favor, by the scruff of the neck, or must one hold on for dear life, like the baby monkey? >> While this cat vs. monkey debate is generally associated with Vaishnavism, here is a zaivite context where it is discussed by paTTin2attAr. mantik kuruLai ottEn2 illai nAyEn2 vazakku aRintum cintikkum cintaiyai yAn2 enceyvEn2 en2ait tItakaRRip puntip parivil kuruLaiyai Entiya pUcaiyaippOl entaikku uriyavan2 kAN attan2E kayilAyattAn2E Here, paTTinattAr explicitly says he is not a baby monkey but belongs to father ziva who is like a mother cat holding the kitten. Regards S. Palaniappan From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Aug 14 17:51:52 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 19:51:52 +0200 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031805.23782.6283289729984295710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:28 14.08.97 BST, you wrote: >John Powers wrote: > >>A student of mine is doing a research project on the role (fi any) of faith >>in Hinduism, both (or either) classical and contemporary. I really can't >>think of any sources that discuss this topic, but if anyone else can, I'd >>greatly appreciate it if you could share them. I'll pass them on to my >>student. > >A work that focuses on more recent forms of Hinduism is C.J. Fuller's _The >Camphor Flame_. I have not had an opportunity to read it as yet, but it >comes highly recommended. As I recall, the approach is somewhat more >anthropological. Fuller's work does include an extensive bibliography, >which may point you to other useful sources. I am familiar with Fuller's book, and give it my best recommentations. May I also suggest the brilliant little book by David R. Kinsley: The Sword and the Flute, Kali & Krshna. Dark Visions of the Terrible and the Sublime in Hindu Mythology. University of California Press, 1975. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:09:14 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:09:14 -0400 Subject: Help with Avestan words Message-ID: <161227031810.23782.4233261761814684612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I would like to know the words by which the following concepts would have been expressed in Avestan. 1. worshipper(s) of ahura 2. follower(s) of ahura 3. people of ahura 4. men of ahura 5. persons of ahura Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Jyotishi at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:29:44 1997 From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:29:44 -0400 Subject: Jai Bhaarat! Message-ID: <161227031812.23782.2406415431294269214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-08-14 14:28:54 EDT, mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) wrote: > > Happy Independence Day, BhArata Bhaarat Maataa Kee Jai Hoe! Jyotishi http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From ARB at maestro.com Fri Aug 15 10:48:50 1997 From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 06:48:50 -0400 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031817.23782.8593799020810957637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we happily e-mail to you upon your request. Thank you, Stephen Feldman ASIAN RARE BOOKS http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ From mkv1 at york.ac.uk Fri Aug 15 04:47:03 1997 From: mkv1 at york.ac.uk (Mahendra Verma) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 09:47:03 +0500 Subject: SALA XIX 1998 Message-ID: <161227031815.23782.4165858910224867923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you please make this announcement. Thanks. ==================================================================== From: MK Verma Subject: Nineteenth South Asian Languages Analysis Roundtable SALA XIX The Department of Language & Linguistic Science at the University of York, York, UK is pleased to announce that it will host the NINETEENTH SOUTH ASIAN LANGUAGES ANALYSIS ROUNDTABLE 18-20 July 1998 The theme of the conference will be ***************************************** SOUTH ASIAN LANGUAGES : FOCUS ON RESEARCH ***************************************** Proposals for 25 minute papers are invited on any aspect of Research in South Asian Languages (including English) covering the following areas: Bilingualism & The Mixed Code Syntax Semantics & Pragmatics ( including Indian Theories of Meaning) Phonestics &Phonology Socio-Historical Linguistics Language Variation & Change Sociolinguistics of Society First & Second Language Acquisition Applied Linguistics. ABSTRACTS will be considered for early acceptance starting October 1997. Final deadline for submission of abstracts and the Pre-Registration Form is 1st December 1997, and for submission of paper is 15 March 1998. Abstracts (200 words) together with the Pre-registration Form should be sent to the Local Organizing Committee: Mahendra K. Verma Kalika Bali Dept. of Language & Linguistic Science University of York YORK, YO1 5DD, UK. Your proposal should consist of the following : (1) the title of the abstract, along with up to 5 keywords; (2) the panel heading of the proposal; (3) Two copies of the abstract with (ON ONE COPY ONLY) the author's name, postal address, telephone & fax numbers, and e-mail address where available, and your status - research student, academic staff, researcher. Please send any request for information to the above address or to the following e-mail addresses: lang16 at york.ac.uk OR mkv1 at york.ac.uk OR kb107 at york.ac.uk Fax: 01904 432673. ************************************************************************ The National Organizing Committee welcomes you to SALA's first visit to Europe: Mahendra K. Verma ( University of York) Kalika Bali ( University of York) Mukul Saxena ( University College of Ripon & St. John, York) Dierdre Martin (University of Birmingham) Gillian Ramchand ( University of Oxford) Jane Stuart-Smith (University of Glasgow) More information will soon be available on http://www.york.ac.uk/~kb107 *********************************************************************** SALA XIX Department of Language & Linguistic Science University of York, York, UK NINETEENTH SOUTH ASIAN LANGUAGES ANALYSIS ROUNDTABLE 18-20 July 1998 SOUTH ASIAN LANGUAGES : FOCUS ON RESEARCH CONFERENCE PRE- REGISTRATION FORM Please complete the following as you would like it to appear on the participants' list : Your title: ................ Your family name.................................................................... .......... Your other name(s)................................................................. .............. Your address ........................................................................ ............. ........................................................................ .................... ........................................................................ .................... Phone & fax numbers ........................................................................ .. e-mail address ........................................................................ ........... Please reserve a conference place for me. Signature...................................................... From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Fri Aug 15 14:26:18 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 10:26:18 -0400 Subject: A question about Sri Aurobindo Ghosh Message-ID: <161227031821.23782.4581697299381853091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please request your friend to contact Peter Heehs of Sri Aurobindo Archives and Library, Sri Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry. sushil mittal iiis/whp On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru wrote: > > Dear members of the list, > > a friend of mine is interested in the philosophical system of Sri Aurobindo Ghosh. He > is a post-graduate student and studies the EVOLUTION of philosophical concepts of the > system. However, nearly all sources on the subject (which are available here, > in St.Petersburg) expose the ideas of Sri Aurobindo in synchronical order, > not diachronical. So, he encounters quite serious problems in this connection. > Could you please mention any sources (titles & names of authors) which deal with > the subject? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Sincerely Yours, > Tattvarthi, dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru > Institute for Oriental Studies, St.Petersburg > From lpatton at emory.edu Fri Aug 15 14:29:29 1997 From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie Patton) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 10:29:29 -0400 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031822.23782.5060161444339593329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For what it's worth: Renou has treated RV 10.151 on sraddha, or faith, in his Etude Vediques and Panineenes (16.172; from where I am I cannot check this cite directly but I think this is it) Other treatments from a more metaphysical perspective are given in Antonio de Nicolas,** Meditations through the Rg Veda**, and Raimundo Pannikar, **The Vedic Experience**. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-272-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From davidi at mail.wizard.net Fri Aug 15 16:14:20 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 12:14:20 -0400 Subject: A question about Sri Aurobindo Ghosh Message-ID: <161227031824.23782.10477280923669014653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tattvarthi, > . . . nearly all sources on > the subject (which are available here, in St.Petersburg) expose the > ideas of Sri Aurobindo in synchronical order, not diachronical. So, > he encounters quite serious problems in this connection. > Could you please mention any sources (titles & names of > authors) which deal with the subject? I'm not certain to what extent this interesting quest will meet with success -- in the sense that a hypothesis of evolution in Aurobindo's ideas may or may not find data to support it. Certainly he himself alludes, I believe, to a progression in his experience -- but it may well be that the progression was a progression of discovery of a (so to say) unitive world of principles . . . in any case, although I have not studied the work in depth, names to mention as far as secondary sources regarding Aurobindo's work would certainly include the prolific Frenchman by the name of Sat Prem (although he was possibly more an expounder of the work of the Mother than of Aurobindo -- his multi-volume Mother's Agenda is in print in both Frensh and English, I think). I am also aware that an Indian philosopher by the name of Madhasudan Reddy has written somewhat extensively regarding Aurobindo's work. I think his books are available in India. It's possible that something from Mr. Reddy may prove of relevance. I do recall that Aurobindo referred to his successive revisions (over a period of many years) of his poetic magnum opus, *Savitri*, as being correlated with a some manner of progression in consciousness. If I were your student, I would certainly look into Aurobindo's own writings ABOUT the process of writing Savitri, for some clues . . . best, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From John.Powers at anu.edu.au Fri Aug 15 02:09:34 1997 From: John.Powers at anu.edu.au (John.Powers at anu.edu.au) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 13:09:34 +1100 Subject: Faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031814.23782.1758882012529411922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everyone who responded to my query about faith in Hinduism. I'm sorry that it was a bit vague, but my hope in making it so was that it would get a range of responses, which it certainly did. My student's project is conceived as a sort of Geertzian approach, taking a category that's important in Western monotheistic traditions (faith) and asking what sort of role (if any) it plays in Hinduism. This is intended to reveal something about the internal logic and worldview of Hinduism through comparison and contrast. Since I mainly work on Buddhist philosophical texts, I'm not well-versed in devotional literature, so I recommended that the student in question speak to a colleague who is an expert on bhakti (Dr Richard Barz) and do a key word search on bhakti in the library catalogue. Of course, the Indian concept of bhakti has many significant differences when compared to the English word "faith," and the same could be said of 'sraddhaa and faith. Many thanks for the excellent suggestions of books and other sources. I've passed them on to my student, and if anyone thinks of anything else that might be relevant, please pass them on to me. John Powers Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University From dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru Sat Aug 16 00:46:39 1997 From: dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru (dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 17:46:39 -0700 Subject: A question about Sri Aurobindo Ghosh Message-ID: <161227031819.23782.2556879879651311772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, a friend of mine is interested in the philosophical system of Sri Aurobindo Ghosh. He is a post-graduate student and studies the EVOLUTION of philosophical concepts of the system. However, nearly all sources on the subject (which are available here, in St.Petersburg) expose the ideas of Sri Aurobindo in synchronical order, not diachronical. So, he encounters quite serious problems in this connection. Could you please mention any sources (titles & names of authors) which deal with the subject? Many thanks in advance, Sincerely Yours, Tattvarthi, dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru Institute for Oriental Studies, St.Petersburg From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Sat Aug 16 14:50:01 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 97 07:50:01 -0700 Subject: A question about Sri Aurobindo Ghosh Message-ID: <161227031826.23782.4948177766067618437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Volume 18, titled "On Himself," of the Centenary (1972) Edition of Sri Aurobindo's collected works would be a good place to start. Also see "Sri Aurobindo or the Adventure of Consciousness" by Satprem, and Kees Bolle's fascinating "The Persistence of Religion; an Essay on Tantrism and Sri Aurobindo's Philosophy." On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:11:47 BST dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru wrote: > > Dear members of the list, > > a friend of mine is interested in the philosophical system of Sri Aurobindo Ghosh. He > is a post-graduate student and studies the EVOLUTION of philosophical concepts of the > system. However, nearly all sources on the subject (which are available here, > in St.Petersburg) expose the ideas of Sri Aurobindo in synchronical order, > not diachronical. So, he encounters quite serious problems in this connection. > Could you please mention any sources (titles & names of authors) which deal with > the subject? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Sincerely Yours, > Tattvarthi, dmitry at quant.stu.neva.ru > Institute for Oriental Studies, St.Petersburg > ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Sat Aug 16 17:19:41 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 97 20:19:41 +0300 Subject: Help Acta Orientalia : backfiles? Message-ID: <161227031828.23782.10827480399373842474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Asko, > >Library of Congress's run is incomplete. Are back issues from >several years ago still available? A sudden request for backfiles >might help. > > >Allen Thrasher >Library of Congress Dear Allen, I should think back issues are available, but do not know for sure. Please consult Munksgaard (telephone and fax in my previous messages). With many thanks for your support, Asko From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Sat Aug 16 17:33:51 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 97 20:33:51 +0300 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031829.23782.7783635918632295256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello, >Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short >list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we >happily e-mail to you upon your request. >Thank you, >Stephen Feldman >ASIAN RARE BOOKS >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ Please send the list. With regards, AP From apandey at u.washington.edu Sun Aug 17 09:01:59 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 02:01:59 -0700 Subject: Q: Indo-Chinese Wars. Message-ID: <161227031831.23782.2163705019500631948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello! I was speaking with an individual at an Independence Day of India celebration who mentioned that during a war between India and China an Indian soldier fended off a rather large battalion of Chinese troops in the mountains by himself. Apparently the rest of his battalion was defeated and he was the lone survivor, until his ammunition, and his stamina, were exhausted and he too was eventually defeated. This is a rather vague narration (the soldier's name and place of battle were unknown to whom I was speaking with) and I was not aware of such an occurance. It seems to me like a nifty little piece of patriotic flag raising! Did something similar to the above ever transpire during a war between India and China? If so, could anyone please tell me what the name of the soldier was and where the battle took place? Thank you! Regards, Anshumnan Pandey From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com Sun Aug 17 08:32:51 1997 From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 04:32:51 -0400 Subject: Q: Indo-Chinese Wars. Message-ID: <161227031832.23782.16353939620304023620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is your friend's involvement in the Cosmic Software stuff? Did you get my message about Bill Gates and India. What is the timestamp on the last vttype32x.zip I sent you? --ralph From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com Sun Aug 17 09:15:19 1997 From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 05:15:19 -0400 Subject: Q: Indo-Chinese Wars. Message-ID: <161227031834.23782.16600869499572758280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry. This message was not intended for the Indology list. Would it be possible to have an option that will ask for verification before sending a message to the entire list? >What is your friend's involvement in the Cosmic Software stuff? Did you get >my message about Bill Gates and India. What is the timestamp on the last >vttype32x.zip I sent you? > From davidi at mail.wizard.net Sun Aug 17 12:45:30 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 08:45:30 -0400 Subject: verification Message-ID: <161227031836.23782.17486584267323988873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [ was, Subject: Re: Q: Indo-Chinese Wars. ] Ralph Bunker asked, > Sorry. This message was not intended for the Indology list. Would it > be possible to have an option that will ask for verification before > sending a message to the entire list? Since a mailing list (such as this listproc -- same deal for a listserv) functions simply through email as such -- i.e., IF you send a msg. to the Indology address, THEN it will be distributed to the list, if you don't, it won't -- ergo, my half-educated guess is that any verification procedure would have to be instituted individually by the partricular writer at his/her own end of the interaction. Unless you're suggesting that all messages sent to the Indology addres should be automatically returned to sender with the question, "Did you *really* mean to send this here? if so, please re-post"? Beyond whatever technical difficulties might be involved in establishing such a hypothetical, it's hard to think of it as being less cumbersome than the current procedure, -- a procedure wherein a quick glance at the TO field should generally suffice to serve as an excellent (albeint non-automated) verification mechanism . . . . pardon the techno-note, all -- d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mon Aug 18 00:11:27 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 19:11:27 -0500 Subject: Vrindavan Research Institute Message-ID: <161227031842.23782.18084945988516855469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Probably you can get a quick answer from Srivatsa Goswami in Vrindaban. He is now on e-mail. I don't know how often he checks, but at least a few times a week: Sri Caitanya Prema Samsthana Fred Smith Univ. of Iowa From nayak at inetport.com Mon Aug 18 10:48:35 1997 From: nayak at inetport.com (nayak at inetport.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 05:48:35 -0500 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031848.23782.4209892954861583241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please send me the list. Thank You, VR >Hello, >Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short >list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we >happily e-mail to you upon your request. >Thank you, >Stephen Feldman >ASIAN RARE BOOKS >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ > > > From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 18 02:27:14 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 07:57:14 +0530 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031843.23782.4693806960385033071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I AM INTERESTED IN GETTING THE LIST. thanks. kalyanaraman. mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in At 06:39 PM 8/16/97 BST, you wrote: >>Hello, >>Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short >>list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we >>happily e-mail to you upon your request. >>Thank you, >>Stephen Feldman >>ASIAN RARE BOOKS >>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ > >Please send the list. With regards, AP > > > > > > > From A.Bowles at latrobe.edu.au Sun Aug 17 23:21:12 1997 From: A.Bowles at latrobe.edu.au (Adam Bowles) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 09:21:12 +1000 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031838.23782.1044967687521017994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello, >Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short >list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we >happily e-mail to you upon your request. >Thank you, >Stephen Feldman >ASIAN RARE BOOKS >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ I would like to see the list. Thank You Adam Bowles From athr at loc.gov Mon Aug 18 13:22:49 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 09:22:49 -0400 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available -Reply Message-ID: <161227031855.23782.560641494213027306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen, Could you send me a copy of the art book list, please? Allen Thrasher From adrian.burton at anu.edu.au Mon Aug 18 00:00:50 1997 From: adrian.burton at anu.edu.au (adrian.burton at anu.edu.au) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 10:00:50 +1000 Subject: Vrindavan Research Institute Message-ID: <161227031840.23782.3304588049677039321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I visited India in January of this year the Vrindavan Research Institute was closed and had been so for about five months because of an industrial dispute. I am planning to return to India again in December and would dearly like to look at some material there. Can anyone tell me whether the VRI is open again? Maybe someone from SOAS would know. Merci d'avance Adrian Burton _______________________________________________________________ Adrian Burton South and West Asia Centre Adrian Burton at anu.edu.au Faculty of Asian Studies +61-6-279 8241 Australian National University From naniji at mail.telepac.pt Mon Aug 18 11:02:02 1997 From: naniji at mail.telepac.pt (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 10:02:02 -0100 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031846.23782.16209138756895186018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello, >Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short >list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we >happily e-mail to you upon your request. >Thank you, >Stephen Feldman >ASIAN RARE BOOKS >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ Hello! I would like to see it, please could you email it to me. Thanks. From js253 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon Aug 18 11:21:19 1997 From: js253 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (J. Shaw) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 12:21:19 +0100 Subject: list of old Indian art-books available Message-ID: <161227031851.23782.4083787216125220638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very happy to receive the list too! Thanks. Yours, J. Shaw > > > > > > > >Hello, > >Asian Rare Books(New York City) has prepared a short > >list of out-of-print Indian art-books which we > >happily e-mail to you upon your request. > >Thank you, > >Stephen Feldman > >ASIAN RARE BOOKS > >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ > > > > > > > > > From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 18 21:33:20 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031859.23782.11991050784750493212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A common name of Draupadii in the Mahaabhaarata is K.ri.s.naa, 'the black one.' Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 09:45 PM 8/18/97 BST, you wrote: >While I have heard of a (highly argued over) Black Athena, I only today >read of a Black Draupadi. It occurs on p. ix of _Imaginary Maps_, which >is a translation of three stories by Mahasweta Devi, translated from the >Bengali by Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak and published by Routledge USA and >Thema Calcutta in 1995. The stories are preceded by a section called "The >Author in >Conversation". Here is where Mahasweta Devi mentions that Draupadi was >black. She says, "Remember, Draupadi in the _Mahabharata_ is a black >woman. She must have been a tribal." > >I haven't finished reading the _Mahabharata_ yet, and I don't remember >everything I have read of it, but I don't recall Draupadi being black >or a tribal. Does anyone else? > >Gratefully, >Bob Hueckstedt > >Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages >Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba >Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada >http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies >fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 > > > > From KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Aug 18 14:42:19 1997 From: KJKARTTU at elo.Helsinki.fi (KJKARTTU) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 14:42:19 +0000 Subject: Tagore in Germany Message-ID: <161227031853.23782.8593206079178856002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues Petra Wehmeyer asked (28th July) about M.-L. Gothein and a few other German connections of Tagore. Of Gothein I have written down a brief note: GOTHEIN, Marie-Louise (n?e Schr?ter) 12.9.1863 - 24.12.1931. German Authoress interested in India. Daughter of Constantin Schr?ter, Landesgerichtsrat in Breslau, and Hermine Auguste Leonhardy. From 1885 married with Eberhard Gothein (1853-1923), an economist and cultural historian who worked as Professor d. National?konomie at Technische Hochschule Karlsruhe in 1884-90, at Bonn 1890-1905 and from 1905 at Heidelberg University. Publications: Indische Garten. - translated: Tagore, Gitanjali. Sources: husband in N.D.B. 6, 1964, 654-656. Helene Meyer-Frank had some relation (wife?) to Heinrich Meyer-Benfey (d. 1945) who wrote a book about Tagore in 1922. Earlier the two had translated together: Tagore, Das Opfer und andere Dramen. 1920. The others are unknown to me P.S. I have still to check details of their publications from library catalogues etc. but at present there is no time for it. I hope this helps Klaus From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Aug 18 21:53:44 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 14:53:44 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031861.23782.11177921830159019991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Draupadi's polyandry is typically given as a reason to say that she and the Pandavas were from a more primitive tribe than the Kurus. And she is often called K.rshNaa. Vidyasankar From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 18 22:35:32 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 15:35:32 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031863.23782.4310795596495049120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The birth of Draupadii/K.r.s.naa is described in Mbh 1.155.41ff. In van Buitenen's translation this appears in vol. 1, p. 318. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Mon Aug 18 20:37:59 1997 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 15:37:59 -0500 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031856.23782.2309195679100159906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I have heard of a (highly argued over) Black Athena, I only today read of a Black Draupadi. It occurs on p. ix of _Imaginary Maps_, which is a translation of three stories by Mahasweta Devi, translated from the Bengali by Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak and published by Routledge USA and Thema Calcutta in 1995. The stories are preceded by a section called "The Author in Conversation". Here is where Mahasweta Devi mentions that Draupadi was black. She says, "Remember, Draupadi in the _Mahabharata_ is a black woman. She must have been a tribal." I haven't finished reading the _Mahabharata_ yet, and I don't remember everything I have read of it, but I don't recall Draupadi being black or a tribal. Does anyone else? Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From gldnreef at primenet.com Tue Aug 19 14:29:30 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 07:29:30 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031866.23782.9408547367558658636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:55 PM 8/18/97 BST, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: And she is >often called K.rshNaa. > > Because she is called K.r.sNaa does that mean that she has black skin? K.r.sna, "The Dark Lord" is said to have blue-black skin. Does someone with a "lotus-face" suffer from cauliflower-ear? From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Tue Aug 19 13:04:55 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 09:04:55 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031865.23782.17341521809608557416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Draupadi's polyandry is typically given as a reason to say that she and > the Pandavas were from a more primitive tribe than the Kurus. Oh yeah, polyandry is primitive, polygamy less so, lifelong monogamy is feudal and serial monogamy is the height of civilization. In RV, Maruts are described as travelling with a single woman, concieved of as a common wife. This is usually explained in naturalistic terms, but if ``Nature religion'' is not subscribed to anymore, should we conclude that the Maruts are not really `Aryan' gods, but come from a more primitive source? And, of course, Dumezil had a very different explanation for this. I have never seen any of those who claim that Draupadi's polyandry is a sign primitivity to attempt to explain why Dumezil must be wrong. I am not even sure that many of those even knew what Dumezil had to say. Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 19 16:39:34 1997 From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 09:39:34 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031870.23782.11675566085379596518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dumezil was champion of the New Comparative school of IE mythology which found a tripartite division in Indo-European myths and ideology, i.e., a first "function" contractual/religious domain, a second function martial force domain (ksatriya), and a third function pastoral, agricultural domain. For more on Dumezil's paradigm, consult C. Scott Littleton's The New Comparative Mythology(Berkeley, and Los Angeles 1982) I, too, am unfamiliar with his views on polyandry. &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*& Chandan R. Narayan 510.642.4551 (work) 510.770.1734 (home) On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, David R. Israel wrote: > Regarding Draupadi's polyandry, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > And, of course, Dumezil had a very different explanation for this. I > > have never seen any of those who claim that Draupadi's polyandry is > > a sign primitivity to attempt to explain why Dumezil must be wrong. > > I am not even sure that many of those even knew what Dumezil had to > > say. > > I'm among those who don't know what Dumerzil had to say on this (or > any other) topic. Might you care to share (in some summary form) the > view / interpretation / idea(s) in question? > > advance thanks, > d.i. > . > ..... > ............ > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > david raphael israel < > >> washington d.c. << > | davidi at wizard.net (home) > | disrael at skgf.com (office) > ========================= > | thy centuries follow each other > | perfecting a small wild flower > | (Tagore) > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// > > From davidi at mail.wizard.net Tue Aug 19 16:01:58 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:01:58 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031868.23782.2453866179643324197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Draupadi's polyandry, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > And, of course, Dumezil had a very different explanation for this. I > have never seen any of those who claim that Draupadi's polyandry is > a sign primitivity to attempt to explain why Dumezil must be wrong. > I am not even sure that many of those even knew what Dumezil had to > say. I'm among those who don't know what Dumerzil had to say on this (or any other) topic. Might you care to share (in some summary form) the view / interpretation / idea(s) in question? advance thanks, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Aug 19 19:54:03 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:54:03 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031874.23782.7566024832754879080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > the well-known K.r.s.na of Vrindaban, Mathura and Dvaraka. I do not think > that we can automatically equate a dark complexion with a "tribal" > background. Thus, Arjuna's brother, Yudhi.s.thira, born of the same mother, > is said to be of fair complexion in the Mahabharata. Also Draupadi's brother, Well, the Pandavas and Kauravas are cousins, sharing a common grandfather, vyAsa, who is also dark-skinned. They belong to the same family, not to mention tribe. However, all this has not stopped those who interpret the epic as a war between different tribes. Vidyasankar From Hrid at aol.com Tue Aug 19 17:40:41 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 13:40:41 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031872.23782.17264357194957304752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Draupadi's very well-known name, K.r.s.naa, indicates that Draupadi was of dark complexion. For the similar reasons, Arjuna is called K.r.s.na, as is the well-known K.r.s.na of Vrindaban, Mathura and Dvaraka. I do not think that we can automatically equate a dark complexion with a "tribal" background. Thus, Arjuna's brother, Yudhi.s.thira, born of the same mother, is said to be of fair complexion in the Mahabharata. Also Draupadi's brother, Dh.r.s.tadyumna is of a fiery complexion. And of course Draupadi herself has a special birth from a sacrificial altar. With best wishes, Howard Resnick From thillaud at unice.fr Tue Aug 19 17:17:20 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 19:17:20 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031876.23782.18076337499916060379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The true name of DraupadI (= daughter of Drupada) is KRSNA just because she's born in the same fire's sacrifice as his brother DhRSTadyumna; she's no more black than Arjuna is silver-made. The polyandry of DraupadI is not ethnological but mythical and there are many explanations of the fact in the MahAbhArata itself. She's not the only woman to have many husbands in the epic: KuntI and MAdhavI are in the same situation and I recall the three ones become again virgins for each change of husband, not very usual in 'tribal' is'nt it ? The fact is not specific to Indian epic, the Greek Helen and the Irish Medb have many husbands. Sorry for the male chauvinists! About Dumezil, it's very hard to explain in few words the work of an entire life. The best is perhaps to read the first volume of Mythe et Epopee (an english translation exists). Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 10:08:05 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 03:08:05 -0700 Subject: Shushruta Samahita on Plastic Surgery Message-ID: <161227031881.23782.15934563012966327152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Medical Science was one area where advances had been made in ancient times in India. Specifically these advances were in the areas of plastic surgery, extraction of catracts, dental surgery, etc. The practice of surgery has been recorded in India around 800 B.C. This need not come as a surprise because surgery (Shastrakarma) is one of the eight branches of Ayurveda the ancient Indian system of medicine. The oldest treatise dealing with surgery is the Shushruta-Samahita (Shushruta's compendium). Shusruta who lived in Kasi was one of the many Indian medical practitioners who included Atraya and Charaka. Shushruta was one of the first to study the human anatomy. In the Shusruta Samahita he has described in detail the study of anatomy with the aid of a dead body. Shusruta's forte was rhinoplasty (Plastic surgery) and ophthalmialogy (ejection of cataracts). Shushruta has described surgery under eight heads Chedya (excision), Lekhya (scarification), Vedhya (puncturing), Esya (exploration), Ahrya (extraction), Vsraya (evacuation) and Sivya (Suturing). The above passages are extracted from a free site hosting the web edition of a book on the above subject. Visit it at the address: "http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/medicine.html" Regards Sudheer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Wed Aug 20 09:15:39 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 10:15:39 +0100 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031878.23782.4237309011613334708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Dear Indologists, > The true name of DraupadI (= daughter of Drupada) is KRSNA just > because she's born in the same fire's sacrifice as his brother > DhRSTadyumna; she's no more black than Arjuna is silver-made. MBh 1.155.41-2, 50 in van Buitenen's translation: Thereupon a young maiden arose from the center of the altar, the well-favored and beautiful Daughter of the Paa~ncaalas, heart-fetching, with a waist shaped like an altar. She was dark ["syaamaa], with eyes like lotus petals, her hair glossy black and curling...Her they called K.r.s.naa, for she was dark of complexion [k.r.s.nety evaabruvan k.r.s.naa.m k.r.s.naabhuut saa hi var.nata.h]. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Wed Aug 20 10:11:03 1997 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 12:11:03 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031883.23782.12903465888966830142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > background. Thus, Arjuna's brother, Yudhi.s.thira, born of the same mother, > is said to be of fair complexion in the Mahabharata. Also Draupadi's brother, > Dh.r.s.tadyumna is of a fiery complexion. And of course Draupadi herself has > a special birth from a sacrificial altar. > With best wishes, > Howard Resnick But remember the pandavas were born to different fathers!!! Pratap From Hrid at aol.com Wed Aug 20 16:57:23 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 12:57:23 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031884.23782.13386809230002098661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/20/97 10:24:08 AM, you wrote: >But remember the pandavas were born to different fathers!!! Yes, and none of them "tribal". From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Aug 20 10:57:35 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 12:57:35 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031888.23782.1094065216536994952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:22 +0200 20/08/97, John Smith wrote: >On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > >> Dear Indologists, >> The true name of DraupadI (= daughter of Drupada) is KRSNA just >> because she's born in the same fire's sacrifice as his brother >> DhRSTadyumna; she's no more black than Arjuna is silver-made. > >MBh 1.155.41-2, 50 in van Buitenen's translation: > > Thereupon a young maiden arose from the center of the altar, the > well-favored and beautiful Daughter of the Paa~ncaalas, > heart-fetching, with a waist shaped like an altar. She was dark > ["syaamaa], with eyes like lotus petals, her hair glossy black and > curling...Her they called K.r.s.naa, for she was dark of complexion > [k.r.s.nety evaabruvan k.r.s.naa.m k.r.s.naabhuut saa hi var.nata.h]. > >John Smith Very clear: seeing the text, I was wrong. But are we sure this passage is not an etymological play to explain his name ? There are many other examples of such plays (BhISma, DroNa, KRpa, &c.) in the MBh. This is an old debat: is the MBh historical or mythical ? The same thing arise in Greece with the Trojan War. I'm working about the links between the two epics and I believe they are very near, hence mythical ones. For example, briefly: Draupadi had five husbands, Helen had five husbands: the pious and just Theseus, the brutal windrunner Achilleus, the loudvoiced Menelaus and the two brothers Paris and Deiphobos (born in an other nation as the twins are born from Madri, an other mother). Draupadi had an ayonisambhava, Helen is born from an egg. Draupadi is an incarnation of Sri, Helen is the gift of Aphrodite, both Goddesses born in the Ocean, churned or foamy, from a lotus or a shell. Draupadi and Helen married in a svayamvara, the first a son of Indra, the second a direct descendant of Zeus, both Thunder's Gods. Drupada made for revenge the sacrifice where Draubadi was born, in a parallel version Helen is not the daughter of Leda but of Nemesis, revenge's Goddess. Hence I suppose nor Draupadi, nor Helen, beeing historical or ethnical characters, but that's just my opinion. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Hrid at aol.com Wed Aug 20 16:58:10 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 12:58:10 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031886.23782.11308698351760244039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 8/19/97 9:00:41 PM, vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) wrote: >Well, the Pandavas and Kauravas are cousins, sharing a common grandfather, >vyAsa, who is also dark-skinned. They belong to the same family, not to >mention tribe. However, all this has not stopped those who interpret the >epic as a war between different tribes. I wonder if "tribe" in this context connotes something more primitive than, say, a "community". Do we speak of contemporary ethnic/racial/cultural groups as "tribes"? From ramkumar at batelco.com.bh Wed Aug 20 10:09:37 1997 From: ramkumar at batelco.com.bh (Ramkumar) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 13:09:37 +0300 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031880.23782.3811369264375340666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists: Dr. John Smith wrote: > MBh 1.155.41-2, 50 in van Buitenen's translation: > > Thereupon a young maiden arose from the center of the altar, the > well-favored and beautiful Daughter of the Paa~ncaalas, > heart-fetching, with a waist shaped like an altar. She was dark > ["syaamaa], with eyes like lotus petals, her hair glossy black and > curling...Her they called K.r.s.naa, for she was dark of complexion > [k.r.s.nety evaabruvan k.r.s.naa.m k.r.s.naabhuut saa hi var.nata.h]. In Swami Chidbhavananda's commentary of the Bhagavad Gita(6.34), the word Krishna is explained as "a person who has control over the mind".The first part of the name "Krish" means "to plough and process", the latter part "Na" means "the master of". So Krishna means "the master of the act of ploughing and processing the mind" or in short, someone who has control over the mind. Swami Chidbhavananda has explained this in Chapter VI of the Bhagavad Gita, in the context of controlling the mind in meditation. -- Sowmya The Bhagavad Gita homepage http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5294/ email: soms at geocities.com or ramkumar at batelco.com.bh From roheko at classic.msn.com Wed Aug 20 18:43:14 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 18:43:14 +0000 Subject: aatape (vi)dhaarita.h Message-ID: <161227031901.23782.3433564730041642275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The story according to the MSV tradition is translated by Prof. Schlingloff in his life-work dealing with the Ajanta-paintings. There in Ajanta this avadana is painted according the MSV-tradition. The tibetan version is translated by the Tibetan scholar Lobsang Panglung from Munich in Germany. All works are written in German: "Panglung "Die Erz?hlstoffe des Mulasarvastivada-vinaya" Tokyo 1981; D. Schlingloff "Zur geschichtlichen Bedeutung der fr?hen Seefahrt" Munich 1982. The Ajanta book of Prof. Schlingloff will be published at the end of 1997. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Aug 21 05:47:30 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 22:47:30 -0700 Subject: faith in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227031891.23782.10443561169046539767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A delayed response to the recent question about faith. Yoshitsugu Sawai has written a book titled The Faith of Ascetics and Lay Smartas, focussing on the advaita sannyasin tradition, discussed in light of W. C. Smith's definition of faith. He discusses the emphasis on SraddhA and bhakti in the contemporary advaita tradition very well. Vidyasankar From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Wed Aug 20 22:16:57 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 23:16:57 +0100 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031889.23782.12670703829559183442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > This is an old debat: is the MBh historical or mythical ? The same > thing arise in Greece with the Trojan War. Yes, and the details you give of comparable elements in the two are genuinely interesting. But "is the MBh historical or mythical" sounds like a dangerous question to me. "Is the Bible historical or mythical?" --- "Is this plate round or is it white?" John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From gldnreef at primenet.com Thu Aug 21 14:37:33 1997 From: gldnreef at primenet.com (gldnreef at primenet.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 07:37:33 -0700 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031903.23782.16270709787492455980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:04 PM 8/21/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >At 23:20 20.08.97 BST, you wrote: >>On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >> >>> This is an old debat: is the MBh historical or mythical ? The same >>> thing arise in Greece with the Trojan War. >> >>Yes, and the details you give of comparable elements in the two are >>genuinely interesting. But "is the MBh historical or mythical" sounds like >>a dangerous question to me. "Is the Bible historical or mythical?" --- "Is >>this plate round or is it white?" >> >>John Smith > >Why on earth should any of the questions be dangerous? I think, to the >contrary, that such definitely should be asked by scholars. The last >question about the plate is not apt in the context. I think it's quite apt. There is no reason why these epics could not be both mythological and historical. The only "danger" in such a premise is in methodology -- would our bibliographies have references to carbon dating or the collective unconscious! From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Aug 21 13:46:21 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 09:46:21 -0400 Subject: comaparative exploration... Message-ID: <161227031900.23782.8414465221636850619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominique Thillaud wrote: > > Hence I suppose nor Draupadi, nor Helen, beeing historical or > > ethnical characters, but that's just my opinion. Pratap Kumar wrote: > This is great stuff. I have been waiting for someone to say this. I > think a lot of Indian materials could be understood through comparative > mythology and this might be problematic to those who tend to argue that > there is nothing unique about the Indian materials. But that is not the [.........] I agree. We therefore need to encourage scholars in other fields to bring their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into dialogue with Hindu Studies. We equally need to encourage South Asia scholars to explore such perspectives in their own work. To consider Hinduism comparatively as a 'form of life' as clarified by its contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms would make it more interesting to non-Indologists and more relevant to contemporary thought. Regards, Sushil Mittal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Full details on _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ can be found on the Journal Homepage at: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu Aug 21 09:45:37 1997 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 11:45:37 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031893.23782.11992105751008444888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 Hrid at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/20/97 10:24:08 AM, you wrote: > > >But remember the pandavas were born to different fathers!!! > > Yes, and none of them "tribal". > Yes, I agree. Pratap From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu Aug 21 10:02:02 1997 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:02:02 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031895.23782.5631372092107010772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Hence I suppose nor Draupadi, nor Helen, beeing historical or > ethnical characters, but that's just my opinion. > Regards, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France This is great stuff. I have been waiting for someone to say this. I think a lot of Indian materials could be understood through comparative mythology and this might be problematic to those who tend to argue that there is nothing unique about the Indian materials. But that is not the point, but what is important to recognize is that many of the characters of epics and other texts of the Indian traditions have parallels elsewhere, and this could have happened in the course of a long interaction between cultures. Thus it is true for most ordinary people reading Indian epic texts to consider them as historical persons, but scholarly treatment of these texts need to bear in mind all the critical issues involved in such assumption and therefore should indulge in serious compartive studies. For instance, there are many structural relations between many creation stories present in both Indian texts as well as western texts such as Biblical, Babylonian and other mythologies. Pratap From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu Aug 21 18:11:15 1997 From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:11:15 -0600 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031906.23782.1588844775783827283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >At 03:04 PM 8/21/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>At 23:20 20.08.97 BST, you wrote: >>>On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: >>> >>>> This is an old debat: is the MBh historical or mythical ? The same >>>> thing arise in Greece with the Trojan War. >>> >>>Yes, and the details you give of comparable elements in the two are >>>genuinely interesting. But "is the MBh historical or mythical" sounds like >>>a dangerous question to me. "Is the Bible historical or mythical?" --- "Is >>>this plate round or is it white?" >>> >>>John Smith >> >>Why on earth should any of the questions be dangerous? I think, to the >>contrary, that such definitely should be asked by scholars. The last >>question about the plate is not apt in the context. > >I think it's quite apt. There is no reason why these epics could not be >both mythological and historical. The only "danger" in such a premise is in >methodology -- would our bibliographies have references to carbon dating or >the collective unconscious! > > According to tradition, both RAmAyaNa and MahAbhArata are called "itihAsAs"; and 'the popular memory' or 'smr^ti' would refer to the purANAs. This would imply that MBh would be more historical and the purANAs would be more mythological.i.e., if tradition has any significance for Indologists -Narahari Achar From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 21 19:15:42 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:15:42 -0700 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031910.23782.11873591622289821945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:37 PM 8/21/97 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Evidently, both the Mbh. and the Bible contain historical information. But >both of them also contain rather a lot of mythology. The problem for the >scholar is to determine whether he is dealing with historical or >mythological material when he is interpreting the texts. >Anyway: There is no history without historical documents: Inscriptions, eye >witness accounts, archives..... Popular memory cannot be trusted. And this >is why I think that Smith's last question isn't apt: round or white? >historical or mythological? With no means of checking on the historicity of >the information, Mbh. is, for all practical purposes, mythological. As an >historical source, it must be used with the utmost care. Dear Lars Martin, I agree with your first paragraph. I almost agree with the second one, except for the supposition that for all practical purposes the Mbh has to be considered myth. I still think that John Smith 'plate' question is apt. It is all a matter of degrees and approach. The 'danger' is in the assumption that it is either one or the other, either historical or mythological. This can lead to extremes. You seem to be addressing one of the extremes, namely uncritically taking the epic as history. In that respect, your warning is on the mark. But there is also the other extreme, that of considering the Mahabharata (and other epics) as purely mythological, a la Biardeau. In the case of the Mbh, the historical-mythical opposition doesn't necessarily have to revolve around whether certain events are exact historical facts (although it can). It can also take the form of whether its story is an old k.satriya tale based on some facts (however distorted) that were later mythologized, as Hopkins argued (and van Buitenen agrees); or a myth with an intention, that is, a purely mythological plot dressed in historical garb, as Biardeau maintains. By the way, didn't Schliemann discover Troy because he stubbornly took the Iliad as history? All the best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Aug 21 13:31:10 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 15:31:10 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031898.23782.15047747635070442753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:20 20.08.97 BST, you wrote: >On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > >> This is an old debat: is the MBh historical or mythical ? The same >> thing arise in Greece with the Trojan War. > >Yes, and the details you give of comparable elements in the two are >genuinely interesting. But "is the MBh historical or mythical" sounds like >a dangerous question to me. "Is the Bible historical or mythical?" --- "Is >this plate round or is it white?" > >John Smith Why on earth should any of the questions be dangerous? I think, to the contrary, that such definitely should be asked by scholars. The last question about the plate is not apt in the context. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From nethabad at ad1.vsnl.net.in Thu Aug 21 11:00:58 1997 From: nethabad at ad1.vsnl.net.in (Gauri Wagenaar) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 16:30:58 +0530 Subject: Gateway Multimedia India Limited Message-ID: <161227031896.23782.784019572790469336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ahmedabad, August 20, 1997 Dear scholars, I am Henk W. Wagenaar, originally from Amsterdam, The Netherlands, married to an Indian and living and working in Ahmedabad, India. Our company, Gateway Multimedia India Ltd., in which Sangeeta S. Parikh is my partner, is the one that computerised the first Hindi-English dictionary ever and issued it on CD-ROM as well as in print. Gateway is specialised in the computerisation of Indian languages in their respective scripts. Since February '95 we are working on a multi-lingual database of Indian languages linked to the major European and at a later stage Arabic and others. In collaboration with the Alliance Francaise of Ahmedabad, we plan to start a French-Hindi-French and a French-Gujarati-French database, each direction containing approx. 100 - 150.000 entries. Its Ahmedabad director, Olivier Debray and the Cultural Attache of the French Embassy in Delhi, are strong supporters of the project. We opt to involve students in particular for the data entry, basic corrections, etc. and the professors for the editing. For your kind information, the Alliance Francaise in Ahmedabad attracts approx. 1250 students a year and is the best functioning cultural society in Gujarat. Cost of the project is estimated at Rs. 25 Lakh, which would be approx. FF 412,500 / $ 69.500. I am sure you all are aware of the average Indian income and expenditures. In short, the two figures out-balance each other to the extreme. For funding of the project we will naturally approach all French companies based in India (fortunately the French embassy had a comprehensive booklet on them). But you have the honour to be the first ones (your address was ready at hand). If your department, your faculty or institute is interested in the project, in whatever way, let us know, and we will supply you with additional information and answer all the questions from your side. For the French speaking among you, Olivier will answer them in person (and in French of course). Some additional information; our database contains Hindi-English, English-Hindi, almost the entire Manak Hindi Kosh, plus other Indian languages (often per target group, such as business, technical & administrative terms, social science, daily life, etc.). At present we are working on English-Malayalam. We also develop linguistic software. A so-called Keyboard Hook of which the foundation was laid by Jeroen Hellingman, is being developed by our youngest system engineer, Ashish Shah (and is almost ready for WIN95 as well) with a transparent phonetic notation. All of you familiar with the (Frans) VELTHUIS notation can start instantly! This is unlike the complicated one as developed by C-DAC in Pune, but one that uses the same keystrokes for each of the 18 Indian languages, no overlay required. It will also enable you to develop your private (multimedia) applications under WINDOWS. The modules can be used with Delphi, Visual C++, etc., in the Indian script of your choice. In the near future we will market this product commercially to finance our linguistic productions. Although we are a public limited (for tax reasons), we are highly depending on the sale of such products and on DATA ENTRY work. In case your department has huge amounts of data entry work in Sanskrit, Hindi & Gujarati, do contact us for a quotation. Yours sincerely, Henk W. Wagenaar Sangeeta S. Parikh PS. Any supporters for the Monier-Williams on CD-ROM? We all dreamed & talked about it. Gateway can do it! From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Aug 21 20:33:22 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 16:33:22 -0400 Subject: Question about vikrtis in Vedaadhyayana Message-ID: <161227031914.23782.4764909498772620473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I would like to know if there is any mention in the sUtra literature of usage of Vedic vikrtis such as krama, jaTA, ghana, ratha pAThas in ritual as opposed to adhyayana. Ghana recitation is heard on some occasions in Vedic ritual in S.India... does this have any basis in the existing textual sources ? Thanks, -Srini. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Aug 21 16:30:46 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 18:30:46 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031905.23782.6702031595395197856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>Yes, and the details you give of comparable elements in the two are >>>genuinely interesting. But "is the MBh historical or mythical" sounds like >>>a dangerous question to me. "Is the Bible historical or mythical?" --- "Is >>>this plate round or is it white?" > >I think it's quite apt. There is no reason why these epics could not be >both mythological and historical. The only "danger" in such a premise is in >methodology -- would our bibliographies have references to carbon dating or >the collective unconscious! Evidently, both the Mbh. and the Bible contain historical information. But both of them also contain rather a lot of mythology. The problem for the scholar is to determine whether he is dealing with historical or mythological material when he is interpreting the texts. As for history, extracting historical information from the Mbh. is a tricky problem. However, see van Buitenen's introduction to his Mbh. translation. He gives an interesting example. As far as the Bible is concerned, we have certain opportunities of checking on it in other ancient documents from the Middle East (e.g. cuneiform writings). This is, I believe, more difficult with the Mbh. The bottom line is, if you can't demonstrate that something is historical - as opposed to mythological - then the "historical value" of the historical information is nil, even if it IS historical. And this is often the case with the Mbh. Let me give you an example: The late Roman emperor Theodoric the Great made such an impression on Germanic peoples that they built a whole set of legends around him. 500 years after his death, the historicity of the information given about Theodorik ("Didrik" in Old Norse sources) mainly consisted of his name. Practically everything else that was told about him, was balderdash (historically speaking), although it makes good reading. Mircea Eliade has written about this kind of phenomenon in "The Myth of the Eternal Return". Bottom line: Popular memory retains historical happenings for 300 years at the most. After that, everything is turned into myth and legend, archetypes taking over. Often, myth takes over practically immediately (Eliade gives a very striking example!) Anyway: There is no history without historical documents: Inscriptions, eye witness accounts, archives..... Popular memory cannot be trusted. And this is why I think that Smith's last question isn't apt: round or white? historical or mythological? With no means of checking on the historicity of the information, Mbh. is, for all practical purposes, mythological. As an historical source, it must be used with the utmost care. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Aug 21 23:28:55 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 19:28:55 -0400 Subject: Question about vikrtis in Vedaadhyayana Message-ID: <161227031915.23782.4613680548050061608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Shaunakiiya Caturadhyaayikaa suutra 4.108 relates to the value of the recitation (adhyayana) of Krama : it is meant to firm up one's control of the Samhitaa and the Pada recitations. I have not seen any sources which prescribe the use of the Vik.rtipaa.thas in ritual. Would like to know if such prescriptions are found anywhere. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: > > Dear members, I would like to know if there is any > mention in the sUtra literature of usage of Vedic > vikrtis such as krama, jaTA, ghana, ratha pAThas > in ritual as opposed to adhyayana. > > Ghana recitation is heard on some occasions in > Vedic ritual in S.India... does this have any > basis in the existing textual sources ? > > Thanks, > -Srini. > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Aug 21 18:20:00 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 20:20:00 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031908.23782.9207842427675965687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> > >According to tradition, both RAmAyaNa and MahAbhArata are called "itihAsAs"; >and 'the popular memory' or 'smr^ti' would refer to the purANAs. This would >imply that MBh would be more historical and the purANAs would be more >mythological.i.e., if tradition has any significance for Indologists >-Narahari Achar I would suppose that tradition means different things to different Indologists! My own personal opinion is this: Traditions have to be checked and double-checked. If independent traditions say approximately the same thing, that would strengthen their case for being historically valid. But even written documents should be treated with care! We all know how history is falsified every day for various reasons - often political. True historical writing involves a cumbersome sifting of material, methodical care and access to the necessary sources. As a general rule, scepticism is called for. No matter what the claims of the epics are, they hardly qualify as historical writings in the same sense as e.g. Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War - where he participated as a commander himself (although with far less success than he had as a writer. He is, as far as I know, the first true historian in the modern sense of the word.) But again: There is no iron rule. Historical interpretations of certain features or parts of the epics may be valid, although the interpreter does have a lot to prove. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Aug 21 19:52:43 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 21:52:43 +0200 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031912.23782.7544115393385385960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >Dear Lars Martin, > >I agree with your first paragraph. I almost agree with the second one, >except for the supposition that for all practical purposes the Mbh has to be >considered myth. >I still think that John Smith 'plate' question is apt. It is all a matter >of degrees and approach. The 'danger' is in the assumption that it is >either one or the other, either historical or mythological. This can lead >to extremes. You seem to be addressing one of the extremes, namely >uncritically taking the epic as history. In that respect, your warning is >on the mark. I think my basic point ist this: Unless you can prove (at least to some degree) something to be history, you might as well treat it as legend or myth. >But there is also the other extreme, that of considering the Mahabharata >(and other epics) as purely mythological, a la Biardeau. >In the case of the Mbh, the historical-mythical opposition doesn't >necessarily have to revolve around whether certain events are exact >historical facts (although it can). It can also take the form of whether >its story is an old k.satriya tale based on some facts (however distorted) >that were later mythologized, as Hopkins argued (and van Buitenen agrees); >or a myth with an intention, that is, a purely mythological plot dressed in >historical garb, as Biardeau maintains. I think both Oldenberg and Parpola have given historical interpretations of parts of the Mbh. (Oldenberg saw Krisha as a historical person). >By the way, didn't Schliemann discover Troy because he stubbornly took the >Iliad as history? That is a very interesting point. But let me point to another case: Attilas presence in Germanic epics (the Niebelungenlied) and in the Nordic Eddic writings (where he is called Atli). He is, undoubtedly, a historical figure. However, in these texts he comes across as a legendary figure. There is little of historical value left, historians cannot use these tales as historical material. I think that what happened in Greece, was that Greeks (and/or for that matter other peoples in the area) made war on Troy during some part of their history, probably repeatedly, so that Troy was made the scene of the great epic tale, the Iliad. This does not mean that the literary motives that you find in the Iliad are historical, although scraps of history very well may have crept into the tale. But if that is the case: What scraps, exactly? Eliade made a study of Yougoslav epics relating to events that took place during the Middle Ages. He can show that historical figures that lived in different centuries are made to fight shoulder-to-shoulder in the same battle! (Again: See the book I mentioned earlier). It would seem that literary and mythical archetypes gobble up historical persons and events, so that history is made to conform to myth. True history does not grow out of epics and literary tales (at least most of the time). It is the product of inscriptions, personal testimonies and archives. I think, therefore, that Biardeau has good reasons for treating the Mbh. as a mythological piece. Whatever historical persons and events have left their traces, they will have been adapted to the religious and ideological needs of the people who transmitted the epic. The structure of the epic determines what sort of history is allowed and what not. Thus, history becomes an integrated part of myth. Oh well, I suppose that I am just an old sceptic ......... Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 From davidi at mail.wizard.net Fri Aug 22 03:26:22 1997 From: davidi at mail.wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 23:26:22 -0400 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031917.23782.17480263443518731154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann writes, > . . . But there is also the other extreme, that of considering the > Mahabharata (and other epics) as purely mythological, a la Biardeau. > In the case of the Mbh, the historical-mythical opposition doesn't > necessarily have to revolve around whether certain events are exact > historical facts . . . . > > By the way, didn't Schliemann discover Troy because he stubbornly > took the Iliad as history? Good points. Here's a further thought, which I happen to subscribe to (althought I would expect many scholars to look at it somewhat askance) -- Somewhere (I've long since lost track) in his voluminous writings about mysticism &c., the late Manley Palmer Hall proposed that, generally speaking (and I'm paraphrasing), nearly all divine *figures* in great mythologies have arisen from human historical underpinnings -- that is, for every Dionysus, Demeter, Orpheus, Rama, Krishna, Siva, Parvathi, or you name it, there was, once, a real human tale, now remembered in the transformed manner of myth. No doubt, this notion -- which might sound to be a rather ludicrous proposition to many here -- arises from (and finds support in) areas of thought that are far afield from the approach and concerns of historians. Nonetheless, to me it has the ring of a useful insight. I will in fact admit to feeling comfortable applying this principle (in my estimation & view) to familiar figures of Indian mythology: that is, I feel privately confident that for every Rama, Krishna, Bhairava, Uma, Draupadi, Ganesha, et cetera, et alia, there was indeed a human life -- and that some (at least) of the attributes and episodes recollected in such figures' tales and myths, are grounded in what once (humanly) was. Such a view is naturally beyond the (direct) circumference (& the needful rigors) of the historian's work; -- but this view may have uses (or resonances, shadows & valuable harmonics), even so. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From apandey at u.washington.edu Fri Aug 22 11:33:14 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 04:33:14 -0700 Subject: Transliterating Samavedic accents. Message-ID: <161227031922.23782.724629043371071258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Could anyone please tell me whether there is an accepted method of translitering the Samavedic accents "2ra", "3ka", and "2u"? As some of you may be aware, I completed a electronic version of the Samaveda Kauthuma Samhita sometime ago, and am now putting the finishing touches on the accented text. The original version of my work was typeset using the Velthuis dvng font in the ITRANS transliteration scheme. As I had not completed the work of adding accents to the text, I made the original version available in Postscript format at: ftp://jaguar.cs.utah.edu/private/sanskrit/sv_kauthuma.ps I've since had to change directions and switch over to the Wikner package as it is has the only font which currently supports accents. I was contacted by Jost Gippert who expressed interest in adding the Kauthuma Samhita to the TITUS Project, but has asked that the text be submitted in LaTeX format; diacritics coded using the standard LaTeX macros system. I am able to code the udatta, anudatta, and svarita accents, but do not know the convention for the other three accents found in the samhita. Here is where progress on my project comes to a halt. Anyhow, I should wish to make the final completed edition of the Kauthuma Samhita accessible to those interested by placing it in the INDOLOGY archive as well. Dominik? Thanks in advance. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Aug 22 05:26:49 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 07:26:49 +0200 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031919.23782.1849783184931268144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:09 +0200 21/08/97, Pratap Kumar wrote, refering to my post: >> Hence I suppose nor Draupadi, nor Helen, beeing historical or >> ethnical characters, but that's just my opinion. > > >This is great stuff. I have been waiting for someone to say this. I >think a lot of Indian materials could be understood through comparative >mythology and this might be problematic to those who tend to argue that >there is nothing unique about the Indian materials. But that is not the >point, but what is important to recognize is that many of the characters >of epics and other texts of the Indian traditions have parallels >elsewhere, and this could have happened in the >course of a long interaction between cultures. >Thus it is true for most ordinary people reading >Indian epic texts to consider them as historical >persons, but scholarly treatment of these texts >need to bear in mind all the critical issues >involved in such assumption and therefore should >indulge in serious compartive studies. For >instance, there are many structural relations >between many creation stories present in both >Indian texts as well as western texts such as >Biblical, Babylonian and other mythologies. Yes, I agree. I'll try, despite my poor English, to explain my opinion. That's not a problem for me to believe Draupadi's or Helen's existence. Being a 'pagan' (there is no words for the old Greek religion) and a scholar, I have not an uniform conception of the truth or of the reality: there are not only exoteric meanings but esoteric ones, too. And history and ethnology are modern sciences, definitely out of this scope and unable to treat such problems. The Heroes of the Greek or Indian epics have a reality because they are divine models of the human life. But this reality is not an historical one, we are unable to give them place and date of birth and death, and that would be stupid to try it! The important is: they are in our past and the past is teaching our present (history has the same objective but needs dates, I don't know why). About the rapports with Biblical or Babylonian mythologies, I don't know anything because just eurindian ones are in my scope. Regards, Dominique PS: I was very interrested by the mail of Dr Ramkumar, considering the root kRS- is very simple and give good tracks. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From athr at loc.gov Fri Aug 22 14:26:12 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 10:26:12 -0400 Subject: Robert Stolper Message-ID: <161227031924.23782.8425039203645553669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an address and telephone for the Oriental rare book seller Robert Stolper, Bath, England? Allen Thrasher athr at loc.gov From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 22 11:08:23 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 12:08:23 +0100 Subject: Shushruta Samahita on Plastic Surgery Message-ID: <161227031920.23782.1861059563894845403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm afraid that much of the quotation given on Wed, 20 Aug 1997 by sudheer birodkar is incorrect. > Medical Science was one area where advances had been made in ancient > times in India. Specifically these advances were in the areas of plastic > surgery, extraction of catracts, dental surgery, etc. Surgery was normally called "salyatantra, not shastrakarma. Cataracts are not extracted. The operation is called couching, and involves piercing the eyeball with a scalpel and detaching the opaque lense from its muscle mount. The lens falls to the bottom of the eye interior, and lies on the bottom of the eye (hence "couching"). The patient can then see light and shade, and some shape, but cannot focus, of course. No anaesthetic was used. > The practice of surgery has been recorded in India around 800 B.C. This date is fanciful. It it possible that some parts of the ayurvedic corpus of practice go back as far as the time of the Buddha, but probably not much earlier than that. The text of the Susrutasamhita which we have today is only datable to the early centuries of the common era, probably about 3rd or 4th century AD. > Shusruta who lived in Kasi ... There is no very strong evidence for this. Most of the Susrutasamhita is cast as a dialogue between Susruta and a teacher Divodaasa who is sometimes called the king of Kasi. > Shusruta's forte was rhinoplasty (Plastic surgery) Rhinoplasty is the name for the specific operation to rebuild a torn or severed nose. > and ophthalmialogy (ejection of cataracts). This ophthalmological parts of the Susrutasamhita occur in the last chapter, the Uttaratantra, which is stated by the tradition to have been composed by a later author, perhaps called Nagarjuna. > The above passages are extracted from a free site hosting the web > edition of a book on the above subject. Visit it at the address: > "http://members.tripod.com/~sudbee/medicine.html" I haven't yet consulted this site, but scholars interested in Indian medical history would do themselves a favour by looking at books like G. J. Meulenbeld, _The Madhavanidana_ (Brill, 1974), which has extremely useful appendices on authors, plants, dates, etc., and P. V. Sharma, _History of Medicine in India_ (Indian National Science Academy, 1992). There are many other trustworthy books. See the bibliography of my forthcoming book _Sanskrit Medical Texts_ (Penguin, Delhi). All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Aug 22 18:27:10 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 13:27:10 -0500 Subject: Question about vikrtis in Vedaadhyayana Message-ID: <161227031927.23782.15086867069320349716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that Madhav is correct about this. I will try to check, But RV recitation in the "srauta ritual is always eka"sruti, and the advanced paa.thas must retain their accents (for brief examples see an appendix to Satavalekar's expanded RV text). It is possible that non-"srauta rituals in South India could contain vik.rtipaa.tha, but that would be the result of "modern ritualizing" (as my old teacher in Madras, Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathacharya, calls it). As an immediate reaction, however, I must say I have never read, heard of, or heard vik.rtis in "srauta ritual. Fred Smith Univ. of iowa On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The Shaunakiiya Caturadhyaayikaa suutra 4.108 relates to the value of the > recitation (adhyayana) of Krama : it is meant to firm up one's control of > the Samhitaa and the Pada recitations. I have not seen any sources which > prescribe the use of the Vik.rtipaa.thas in ritual. Would like to know if > such prescriptions are found anywhere. > Madhav Deshpande > > On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: > > > > > Dear members, I would like to know if there is any > > mention in the sUtra literature of usage of Vedic > > vikrtis such as krama, jaTA, ghana, ratha pAThas > > in ritual as opposed to adhyayana. > > > > Ghana recitation is heard on some occasions in > > Vedic ritual in S.India... does this have any > > basis in the existing textual sources ? > > > > Thanks, > > -Srini. > > > > > > From beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Fri Aug 22 18:47:32 1997 From: beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 14:47:32 -0400 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031929.23782.5292282114757909775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Putting these two questions together is like walking into the same trap Martin Bernal set for himself with his Black Athena. The first question is an historical question for which there is no historical answer. The second question is a literary question for which the text gives all the answer we deserve. Mixing these questions up can only reiterate silliness, of which scholars have produced too much already for over a century. Alf Hiltebeitel On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > > > >Dear Lars Martin, > > > >I agree with your first paragraph. I almost agree with the second one, > >except for the supposition that for all practical purposes the Mbh has to be > >considered myth. > >I still think that John Smith 'plate' question is apt. It is all a matter > >of degrees and approach. The 'danger' is in the assumption that it is > >either one or the other, either historical or mythological. This can lead > >to extremes. You seem to be addressing one of the extremes, namely > >uncritically taking the epic as history. In that respect, your warning is > >on the mark. > > I think my basic point ist this: Unless you can prove (at least to some > degree) something to be history, you might as well treat it as legend or myth. > > >But there is also the other extreme, that of considering the Mahabharata > >(and other epics) as purely mythological, a la Biardeau. > >In the case of the Mbh, the historical-mythical opposition doesn't > >necessarily have to revolve around whether certain events are exact > >historical facts (although it can). It can also take the form of whether > >its story is an old k.satriya tale based on some facts (however distorted) > >that were later mythologized, as Hopkins argued (and van Buitenen agrees); > >or a myth with an intention, that is, a purely mythological plot dressed in > >historical garb, as Biardeau maintains. > > I think both Oldenberg and Parpola have given historical interpretations of > parts of the Mbh. (Oldenberg saw Krisha as a historical person). > > >By the way, didn't Schliemann discover Troy because he stubbornly took the > >Iliad as history? > > That is a very interesting point. But let me point to another case: Attilas > presence in Germanic epics (the Niebelungenlied) and in the Nordic Eddic > writings (where he is called Atli). He is, undoubtedly, a historical figure. > However, in these texts he comes across as a legendary figure. There is > little of historical value left, historians cannot use these tales as > historical material. I think that what happened in Greece, was that Greeks > (and/or for that matter other peoples in the area) made war on Troy during > some part of their history, probably repeatedly, so that Troy was made the > scene of the great epic tale, the Iliad. This does not mean that the > literary motives that you find in the Iliad are historical, although scraps > of history very well may have crept into the tale. But if that is the case: > What scraps, exactly? Eliade made a study of Yougoslav epics relating to > events that took place during the Middle Ages. He can show that historical > figures that lived in different centuries are made to fight > shoulder-to-shoulder in the same battle! (Again: See the book I mentioned > earlier). It would seem that literary and mythical archetypes gobble up > historical persons and events, so that history is made to conform to myth. > True history does not grow out of epics and literary tales (at least most of > the time). It is the product of inscriptions, personal testimonies and > archives. > > I think, therefore, that Biardeau has good reasons for treating the Mbh. as > a mythological piece. Whatever historical persons and events have left their > traces, they will have been adapted to the religious and ideological needs > of the people who transmitted the epic. The structure of the epic determines > what sort of history is allowed and what not. Thus, history becomes an > integrated part of myth. > > Oh well, I suppose that I am just an old sceptic ......... > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: L.M.Fosse at internet.no > Mobile phone: 90 91 91 45 > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 22 16:23:01 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 17:23:01 +0100 Subject: Robert Stolper Message-ID: <161227031926.23782.11184312103277279860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Does anyone have an address and telephone for the Oriental rare book > seller Robert Stolper, Bath, England? I think you mean Paul Stolper. 120 Cheyne Walk, London SW10 0ES Tel: 0171 352 8092. My record is a few years old. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From roheko at classic.msn.com Sat Aug 23 03:48:47 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 03:48:47 +0000 Subject: aatape (vi)dhaarita.h Message-ID: <161227031931.23782.18328562823198198022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The story according to the MSV tradition is translated by Prof. Schlingloff in his life-work dealing with the Ajanta-paintings. There in Ajanta this avadana is painted according the MSV-tradition. The tibetan version is translated by the Tibetan scholar Lobsang Panglung from Munich in Germany. All works are written in German: "Panglung "Die Erz?hlstoffe des Mulasarvastivada-vinaya" Tokyo 1981; D. Schlingloff "Zur geschichtlichen Bedeutung der fr?hen Seefahrt" Munich 1982. The Ajanta book of Prof. Schlingloff will be published at the end of 1997. The word aatapa occurs about 5 times in Buddhacarita (1.18/1.73/13.43/11.37/9.22), also in connection with the root dh.r, further instances are to be found in Palicanon. From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 25 04:26:36 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 20:26:36 -0800 Subject: verification Message-ID: <161227031935.23782.2921885003020702387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:54 +0100 8/17/97, David R. Israel wrote: > a >quick glance at the TO field should generally suffice to serve as an >excellent (albeint non-automated) verification mechanism . . . . One would also need to take a look at the *Cc* line, as the automatic reply puts the list address there as well. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 25 06:06:09 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 22:06:09 -0800 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031937.23782.6046882282798595121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:38 +0100 8/22/97, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: >Mixing these questions up can only reiterate silliness, of >which scholars have produced too much already for over a century. Alf >Hiltebeitel Could you, perhaps, elaborate on that? How about providing criteria for defining any narrative as "history" and/or "myth"? Thanks. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From Jyotishi at aol.com Mon Aug 25 03:55:22 1997 From: Jyotishi at aol.com (Jyotishi at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 23:55:22 -0400 Subject: Bharat Wins Turmeric Battle Message-ID: <161227031933.23782.8890070191319620665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BHARAT WINS PATENT BATTLE ON TURMERIC POWDER Excerpts begin: New Delhi, August 24, 1997 (Reuter) - The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has rejected a patent for a U.S. university for use of turmeric powder as a healing agent after India challenged the patent saying the technique was not new, an Indian government statement said. "After a long techno-legal argument, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (US PTO) has unequivocally rejected all the six claims of US Patent No 5401504 for the use of turmeric powder as a wound healing agent on August 13, 1997,'' said a statement issued late on Saturday. [...] "The patent was granted to the University of Mississippi Medical Centre on March 28, 1995. India's state-run Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) challenged the patent on October 28, 1996, the statement said. "'This is a significant development of far reaching consequences for the protection of the traditional Indian knowledge base in the public domain,'' the statement said. "'This success sent strong signals that if patent cases are fought on well with well-supported techno-legal grounds, there is nothing to fear about protecting our traditional knowledge base,'' [CSIR director general] Mashelkar said. . . ." End of excerpts What a great victory! Jyotishi http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti From sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 12:47:44 1997 From: sudheer_birodkar at hotmail.com (sudheer birodkar) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 05:47:44 -0700 Subject: Address and specialist needed (Making of Inflammable Arrows) Message-ID: <161227031942.23782.10010171117046253778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is an extract on the making of inflammable arrows. This comes from a text "Ancient India as described by Ktesais the Knidian" Transalted from Greek by J.M.McCrindle, Published by Trubner and Co. London in 1882 (One Thousand Eight Hundred and Eighty Two) P.28. The Greek text is believed to be dated around the 4th Century B.C.E. (Before the Common Era). Ktesias was supposed to be a physician at the court of the Acheamenian (Hakkamanishiya) Kings who ruled Persia from the 5th Century BCE to the 3rd Century BCE. Here is his passage: "There is bred in the Indian river a worm like in appearance to that which is found in the fig, but seven cubits more or less in length while its thickness is such that only a boy of ten years old could clasp him within the circuit of his arms." In this passage Ktesias is seemingly referring to some species of the Indian Python. The text further says, "For catching this worm a large hook is employed to which a kid or lamb is fastened with hooks of iron. The worm being landed the captors hang up its carcass and placing vessels underneath it leave it for thirty days. At he end of thirty days they throw the carcass, and preserving the oil they take it to the king of Indians alone, for no subject is allowed to get a drop of it. This oil like fire sets everything ablaze over which it is poured and it consumes not alone wood but also animals. The flames can be quenched only by throwing over it a large quantity of clay and that too of a uniform consistency." This passge describes the process of extraction of body oil from a python which it describes as highly inflammable. Such oils we are told. were used in tipping arrows to make them inflammable. This could be the process of making inflammable arrows which have been referred to as Agni-astras and agni-bans in Indian epics. This hypothesis obviously is a only conjecture and need not be taken as a gospel truth. Sudheer >From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Mon Aug 25 05:07:21 1997 >Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail.liv.ac.uk > with Local-SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:06:33 +0100 >Message-Id: <3401F30D.11D4 at urz.uni-heidelberg.de> >Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:06:04 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Ditte Koenig >To: Members of the list >Subject: Address and specialist needed >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Does 1) anyone know the address (e-mail?) of G. Gropp in Hamburg? And >does 2) anyone know who is a specialist in questions of pre-islamic >weapons (axes, bows etc) in India/Pakistan/Afghanistan? = > >Thank you! >Ditte Bandini-K=F6nig >-- = > > > >Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >>Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< >Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > >Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 >mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de >http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Aug 25 15:10:37 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 09:10:37 -0600 Subject: A Tamil Poem Message-ID: <161227031944.23782.13775478949400480273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 8/19/97 A Tamil Poem by Kavignar Cirpi ********************************** The following is a translation of a poem by Sirpi Balasubramaniam. He is visiting USA. This avant-garde poem is remarkable. In a quest for his origins, the poet hints at the physical self's commencement in flesh and blood, his growth to include immediate environment, his soul's urges to wear religious clothes, innate pre-civilizational beginnings and associated barbarianisms haunting as remainders even now. He concludes with the origins of Life from sun's speck of light and his connection to it. Within him is a drop of light from the ancient sun surrounded by darkness. Many voices heard and spoken by the poet along his life's journey are used here effectively as devices to answer his own inner conscience's moorings. This image-laden modern poem has lots of uLLuRai of Tholkaappiyar or dhvani aspects. That is one way of looking at it. Washington, DC Lecture, Aug. 30, 1997, (For Details, contact Mr. S. Krishnan, 301-869-8202 or Mr. Sundar Chockalingam 301-926-9278) New Jersey Tamil sangam function, Sep. 6, 1997 (For venue and time, contact Mr. N. Muruganandham, 908-281-6078 or Mr. R. Kumaraswamy of NJ Tamil sangam, 908-549-8937) Enjoy, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov *********************************************************************** The Sun's Shadow SIRPI BALASUBRAMANIAM A voice stumbled out of my interior universe ... O Whose shadow am I? Father.. Grandfather? My great-grandfather? This unbroken chain of my countless dead ancestors ".. he has the ear of an elephant taking after his grandfather!" ".. even now he has turned bald a hereditary trait.." O Whose shadow am I? The dust of my village? The lonely portia tree performing a solitary penance? The foam-flecked river running wild? ".. where has he gone.. Look around the portia tree. will be playing marbles.." ".. Hey.. whom do you take me for? I'm one who grew up drinking Aliyar's water" O Whose shadow am I? The earthen lamp shining faintly in the Mariamman temple? The temple tower at Palani going high up step by step? The continuous run of the Jain, the Buddhist, the Vaishnavaite? "The priest is possessed.. I'm sacred.." "I'm carrying files added to files as though I'm taking a kavadi for Murugan.." "Always I'm a vegetarian." O Whose shadow am I? The primeval forests where the cricket buzzes? The cheetah? The ape? The cascades - the music of the woods? ".. Look at his face.. a barbarian in truth." "If only he has a tail verily would he be a monkry.." "Speech.. It is that .. It's a cascade, hey.. a veritable cascade!" O .. Whose, whose, whose shadow am I? Am I an insignificant worm covered by the clinging smear of universal darkness? On me the brush strokes of darkness.. Yet within me.. always the drops of light (the beams) of the ancient sun like the gleaming smile of a black child. (Translated by M. S. Ramaswami) *********************************************************************** Kavignar Dr. Sirpi Balasubramaniam, former Head of Dept, Tamil, Bharatiyar university, Coimbatore is visiting USA. Well-known poet and Winner of many awards, like Bharatidasan Parisu from Govt. of Tamil Nadu. Once Bharatidasan sang of him: naaTTuth thiRam ennE! naavuuRip pOnEn naan! Also, He has translated many poems from Malayalam. Wrote comparing the poetry of Bharatiyar and VallaththOL. Wrote poetry using themes from science. He has graduated many students who are into Tamil literature research or creative writing. ######################################### Some of Kavignar Sirpi's Publications ######################################### 1) Cirpi, 1936- Alaiyum cuvatum / Pi. Palacuppiramaniyan (Cirpi). 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1994. 125 p. ; 23 cm. SUBJECTS: Tamil literature--History and criticism. 2) Cirpi, 1936- Atirai / Cirpi. 2. patippu. Kovai: Kolam Veliyitu, 1993. 102 p. ; 19 cm. SUBJECTS: Verse drama, Tamil. 3) Cirpi, 1936- A comparative study of Bharati and Vallathol / Sirpi Balasubramaniam. 1st ed. Tamil Nadu : Kolam Veliyeedu, 1991. 320 p. ; 22 cm. SUBJECTS: Paratiyar, 1882-1921--Criticism and interpretation. Vallattol, 1878-1958--Criticism and interpretation. Study of the works of Paratiyar, 1882-1921, Tamil poet, and Vallattol, 1878-1958, Malayalam poet. 4) Cirpi, 1936- Curiya nilal / Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1990. 96 p. ; 19 cm. NOTES: Poems with Scientific themes 5) Cirpi, 1936- Ilakkiyac cintanai / Cirpi. Kolam Veliyitu ; Civakankai : Virpanai urimai, Annam, 1989. 124 p. ; 22 cm. Critical articles on Tamil literature. Includes bibliographical references. 6) Cirpi, 1936- Mauna mayakkankal / Cirpi. 1st ed. Kolam Veliyeedu, 1982. 109 p. ; 19 cm. 7) Cirpi Punnakai pukkum punaikal / Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Annam, 1982. 123 p. ; 20 cm. 8) Cirpi Makakavi Parati matippitukal : ayvuk katturaikal / tokuppu, Cirpi. 1. patippu. Civakankai : Virpanai urimai, Annam, 1981. ca. 150 p. ; 22 cm. Paratiyar, 1882-1921--Criticism and interpretation--Addresses, essays, lectures. 9) Kavignar Cirpi manivila malar, 1996 ####################################################################### From beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Mon Aug 25 14:21:27 1997 From: beitel at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Alf Hiltebeitel) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 10:21:27 -0400 Subject: History or Myth? Was: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031946.23782.2514787133837733222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Myth has never been satisfactorily defined as an entity in itself. It seems to only get defined as something that something else is not. The clearer contrast, and the one most people seem to mean in such contexts as this Indology discussion, is whether it is history or fiction. But I prefer for now: history or literature, in this case, literature about whose historicity (e.g., Draupadi) we know nothing, and are thus free to create our own historical or ethnographic fictions. On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, B. Reusch wrote: > At 21:38 +0100 8/22/97, Alf Hiltebeitel wrote: > >Mixing these questions up can only reiterate silliness, of > >which scholars have produced too much already for over a century. Alf > >Hiltebeitel > > Could you, perhaps, elaborate on that? > How about providing criteria for defining any narrative as "history" and/or > "myth"? > Thanks. > > Beatrice Reusch > University of California, Berkeley > > > > From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Aug 25 15:20:14 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 11:20:14 -0400 Subject: Q: Black Draupadi? Message-ID: <161227031949.23782.6015839710338027478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I like to apologize for not responding sooner. David R. Israel wrote: > Regarding Draupadi's polyandry, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > And, of course, Dumezil had a very different explanation for this. I > > have never seen any of those who claim that Draupadi's polyandry is > > a sign primitivity to attempt to explain why Dumezil must be wrong. > > I am not even sure that many of those even knew what Dumezil had to > > say. > > I'm among those who don't know what Dumerzil had to say on this (or > any other) topic. Might you care to share (in some summary form) the > view / interpretation / idea(s) in question? The short, potentially misleading, answer to this particular question is that prominent `senior' godesses are rare in IE traditions (except Greek) but there is always one or two. Why this explanation matters for Draupadi can only be answered by reading Dumezil in extenso. ------ The discussion about the historicity of Mahaabhaarata seems to be a fit occassion for a question that has always intrigued me. The critical edition puts two geneologies (in 1.89 and in 1.90), and van Buitenen's notes say that there seems to be no way to reconcile the two. What I don't understand is the presence of two very different versions and the fact that the editor(s) did not feel capable of picking one as better supported than the other. I do not have access to the edition itself (only to Tokunaga's e-text; so call me a cheapskate :-) I will appreciate if someone can summarize any comments the editor makes on this point. Especially, any pointers to discussions of this in the literature about historical interpretation of the Mahaabhaarata. The really strange thing is the geneology just prior to Pratiipa. The second one shows no strange pattern. But the first shows a break, which Suktankar felt was unbridgable, just before Pratiipa. But the portion prior to that has only two points in common with the second geneology: (1) Ajamii.dha has a son Sa.mvarana, who married Tapatii and begot Kuru; (2) Parik.sit has a son named Bhiimasena. But the second genelogy does not mention any Janamejaya at this point, only much earlier, as a son of Puuru and a long-removed ancestor of Du.s.santa and Bharata. Going back to the first: It makes Parik.sit a son of Abhi.svat and grandson of Kuru and a nephew of a Janamejaya (1.89.42--46). Among Parik.sit's seven sons, it lists Bhimasena and Ugrasena (but not "Srutasena), names which occur in Late Vedic texts with the patronymic Paarik.sita. To me it seems that it mentions another Janamejaya as a son of Parik.sit, though van Buitenen avoids saying so explicitly (1.89.47,48). It gives this Janamejaya eight sons, among whom are Dh.rtaraa.s.tra, Paa.n.du and Baahlika (1.89.49,50)! Dh.rtaraa.s.tra is credited with eight sons too, including a Hastin (1.89.51). Now comes the break, after which it starts anew with Pratiipa, Santanu etc. This is all very intriguing. Unraveling this knot is obviously crucial to any attempt to extract history from MBhr and attempts to connect the Epic names to Vedic literature (Parik.sit and Janamejaya known to Vedic literature are which ones? Pratiipa's ancestors or Abhimanyu's son and grandson?). Surely there must some discussion of this in the literature. Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From roheko at classic.msn.com Mon Aug 25 12:02:36 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 12:02:36 +0000 Subject: cAra Message-ID: <161227031940.23782.7320494682720731061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term cAra is explained by the various scholars as "spy". The Buddhist canon has not one example like this. The Jains commentators interpret cAra as something like "Astrology" or better, I am not sure, as "making a Horoskop (german)". I suppose the explanation "spy" is not right. Why an ancient king needs to employ a spy in case his astrologers knew precisely the course of the enemy? Does anyone knows some more informations? Similar the term praticAra, often mentioned together with cAra is not clear to me. Thanks. From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Mon Aug 25 21:03:09 1997 From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 14:03:09 -0700 Subject: Address and specialist needed Message-ID: <161227031939.23782.13184077712994780844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does 1) anyone know the address (e-mail?) of G. Gropp in Hamburg? And does 2) anyone know who is a specialist in questions of pre-islamic weapons (axes, bows etc) in India/Pakistan/Afghanistan? Thank you! Ditte Bandini-K?nig -- Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Mon Aug 25 15:07:05 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 18:07:05 +0300 Subject: Address and specialist needed Message-ID: <161227031948.23782.1709777050400732410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does 1) anyone know the address (e-mail?) of G. Gropp in Hamburg? And >does 2) anyone know who is a specialist in questions of pre-islamic >weapons (axes, bows etc) in India/Pakistan/Afghanistan? >Thank you! >Ditte Bandini-K?nig >-- > > >Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >>Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< >Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > >Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 >mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de >http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html Dr Gayatri Nath Pant (1940-), Director, National Museum of India, New Delhi, is a specialist in Indian weapons, who has published i.a. the following: Pant, Gayatri Nath, 1989. Mughal weapons in the Ba^bur-Na^ma^. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan. xxix, 247 p., many ill. Pant, G. N., 1993. Indian archery. 2nd ed. With a foreword by W. F. Paterson. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan.xxii, 416 pp.,59 p. of b/w pl., bibliogr. (pp. 397-408), index. USD 60. Pant, G. N., 19??. Horse and elephant armour. INR 1500. Pant, G. N., and Yashodhara Agrawal, 199?. A catalogue of arms and armours in Bharat Kala Bhavan. INR 500. Professor Burkhard Brentjes of Berlin has published the following book: Brentjes, Burchard, 1995. Arms of the Sakas (and other tribes of the Central Asian steppes). Varanasi: Rishi Publications. 4:o, viii, 164 pp., 42 pl., 15 b/w photographs, index. ISBN 81-85193-16-9. Hb INR 1600. Best regards, AP From fo5a012 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de Tue Aug 26 15:50:14 1997 From: fo5a012 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Michael Pahlke) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 08:50:14 -0700 Subject: Address and specialist needed Message-ID: <161227031952.23782.18297205358754989484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ditte Koenig wrote: > > Does 1) anyone know the address (e-mail?) of G. Gropp in Hamburg? And > does 2) anyone know who is a specialist in questions of pre-islamic > weapons (axes, bows etc) in India/Pakistan/Afghanistan? > Thank you! > Ditte Bandini-K?nig > -- > > Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften > >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< > Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg > > Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 > mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de > http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html The address of G. Gropp in Hamburg is - Seminar fuer Geschichte und Kultur des Vorderen Orients, Arbeitsbereich Iranistik, Rothenbaumchaussee 36, 20148 Hamburg. He has no e-mail address. Michael Pahlke -- Michael Pahlke - Hamburg University e-mail : pahlke at rrz.uni-hamburg.de From thillaud at unice.fr Tue Aug 26 08:45:02 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 10:45:02 +0200 Subject: cAra Message-ID: <161227031954.23782.16276323436624852155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:12 +0200 25/08/97, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: >The term cAra is explained by the various scholars as "spy". The Buddhist >canon has not one example like this. The Jains commentators interpret cAra as >something like "Astrology" or better, I am not sure, as "making a Horoskop >(german)". I suppose the explanation "spy" is not right. Why an ancient king >needs to employ a spy in case his astrologers knew precisely the course of >the >enemy? Does anyone knows some more informations? Similar the term praticAra, >often mentioned together with cAra is not clear to me. >Thanks. Both meanings 'spy' and 'astrology' come naturally from a general 'to observe' and, despite Mayrhofer, cAra is probably linked with the Greek verb tEreO 'to observe' (root *kvEr-) and not with carati 'to walk' (root *kvel-). About using both spies and astrologers, I suppose a wise king use all the ways to have knowledge of the ennemy, because even if you trust the astrology, astrologers are men and can make mistakes. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From garzilli at shore.net Tue Aug 26 16:48:34 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:48:34 -0500 Subject: JSAWS Vol. 3, No. 1 Message-ID: <161227031958.23782.1357759855337495719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to announce that the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* Vol. 3, No. 1 (Aug. 25) has just been issued by email. In a few weeks you will find the abstracts of the papers on our web page: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ The hard-copy book *The Journal of South Asia Women Studies: Collected Issues -- 1995-97* is in print, and will be available by September. IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPER: *The Perils of Free Speech* by Taslima Nasrin - REPORT: *An Unconventional Woman: Two Evenings with Taslima Nasrin* by Enrica Garzilli - NEW TITLES: *Review* of Eva Kipp, with contributions from Kim Hudson, Lucia de Vries, Marieke van Vliet and Alieke Barmentloo, *Bending Bamboo Changing Winds: Nepali Women Tell Their Life Stories* (Damber K. Gurung and Ambika Gurung) - COPYRIGHT NOTICE * * * * * *THE PERILS OF FREE SPEECH* by Taslima Nasrin Abstract Taslima Nasrin gave this lecture in April 26, 1996 in Cambridge, Massachusetts (U.S.A.). Never previouly published, it is about women who want to be writers and poets. It is about herself and her problems as a writer in Bangladesh nowadays. These difficulties are both due to Islamic fundamentalism, and to the general idea that the education of women would ruin the family. Educated girls would forget their rituals, neglect their husbands and their families. In a reaction to the initial attempts to educate girls, the idea was spread that women, if educated, would become widows, which means their husbands would die. Another common idea is that the educated women would lose their virtue. There is a saying in Bengali to the effect that if women put on shoes the lunch is spoiled. Working women are still very rare in Muslim middle-class families; some of them work for wages but mostly in the informal sector like private tutoring, or they are teachers at schools, colleges, hospitals and a few other types of institutions. In this situation one can hardly expect hundreds of women to take up the pen. There are women among the authors and journalists in Bangladesh, but there are few in number. The problem grows up when a Bangladeshi woman wants to do some really creative writing. As long as a woman writes about males, stories or poems, as long she imitates the style and subject matter of male writers, as long she follows the beaten track, and as long as she remains conformist, she will be all right. But if someone starts saying what she really means, editors and publishers are bound to raise their eyebrows. Indeed, the moment a girl in Bangladeshi society starts writing, the first reaction of men is that there must be something wrong with her. Why should a happy housewife want to write? Men think girls with problems usually end up in a mental asylum, become prostitutes, or commit suicide. And those who cannot do any of these things, pick up the pen and shamelessly intrude into the men's world. The paper continues with questions, comments, and speculation regarding herself. Nasrin describes her career and problems she has being a free, atheist woman writer in a Muslim patriarchal country. The talk is followed by her reading of poems, and by more than an hour answering the audience's questions. * * * * * *A NON-CONVENTIONAL WOMAN: TWO EVENINGS WITH TASLIMA NASRIN* by Enrica Garzilli What is published after Nasrin's lecture, is a report of two evenings Garzilli spent with Taslima Nasrin in April 1996 in Cambridge (Mass., U.S.A.). Especially during the first, informal meeting and dinner, Garzilli approached Nasrin as a woman and a friend, trying to understand her, and to delve into her public, dramatic personality as a controversial and criticized writer and polemist, and as a symbol of freedom for thousands of women writers in the world. *********************************************************************** Enjoy the Reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 74388 URL: From ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Tue Aug 26 21:01:59 1997 From: ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Ditte Koenig) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 14:01:59 -0700 Subject: Danke! Message-ID: <161227031955.23782.10823652873842920186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Asko Parpola, Sudheer Birodkar and Michael Pahlke for their help! Ditte Bandini -- Dr. Ditte Bandini Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 D-69117 Heidelberg Tel: ++49-6221-543273 Fax: ++49-6221-543355 mailto:ditte.koenig at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/sonst/adw/kara/welcome.html From garzilli at shore.net Wed Aug 27 14:05:08 1997 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 09:05:08 -0500 Subject: JSAWS 3,1: TOC Message-ID: <161227031963.23782.7583767903664732385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to announce that the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* Vol. 3, No. 1 (Aug. 25) has just been issued by email. In a few weeks you will find the abstracts of the papers on our web page: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ The hard-copy book *The Journal of South Asia Women Studies: Collected Issues -- 1995-97* is in print, and will be available by September. IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPER: *The Perils of Free Speech* by Taslima Nasrin - REPORT: *An Unconventional Woman: Two Evenings with Taslima Nasrin* by Enrica Garzilli - NEW TITLES: *Review* of Eva Kipp, with contributions from Kim Hudson, Lucia de Vries, Marieke van Vliet and Alieke Barmentloo, *Bending Bamboo Changing Winds: Nepali Women Tell Their Life Stories* (Damber K. Gurung and Ambika Gurung) - COPYRIGHT NOTICE * * * * * *THE PERILS OF FREE SPEECH* by Taslima Nasrin Abstract Taslima Nasrin gave this lecture in April 26, 1996 in Cambridge, Massachusetts (U.S.A.). Never previouly published, it is about women who want to be writers and poets. It is about herself and her problems as a writer in Bangladesh nowadays. These difficulties are both due to Islamic fundamentalism, and to the general idea that the education of women would ruin the family. Educated girls would forget their rituals, neglect their husbands and their families. In a reaction to the initial attempts to educate girls, the idea was spread that women, if educated, would become widows, which means their husbands would die. Another common idea is that the educated women would lose their virtue. There is a saying in Bengali to the effect that if women put on shoes the lunch is spoiled. Working women are still very rare in Muslim middle-class families; some of them work for wages but mostly in the informal sector like private tutoring, or they are teachers at schools, colleges, hospitals and a few other types of institutions. In this situation one can hardly expect hundreds of women to take up the pen. There are women among the authors and journalists in Bangladesh, but there are few in number. The problem grows up when a Bangladeshi woman wants to do some really creative writing. As long as a woman writes about males, stories or poems, as long she imitates the style and subject matter of male writers, as long she follows the beaten track, and as long as she remains conformist, she will be all right. But if someone starts saying what she really means, editors and publishers are bound to raise their eyebrows. Indeed, the moment a girl in Bangladeshi society starts writing, the first reaction of men is that there must be something wrong with her. Why should a happy housewife want to write? Men think girls with problems usually end up in a mental asylum, become prostitutes, or commit suicide. And those who cannot do any of these things, pick up the pen and shamelessly intrude into the men's world. The paper continues with questions, comments, and speculation regarding herself. Nasrin describes her career and problems she has being a free, atheist woman writer in a Muslim patriarchal country. The talk is followed by her reading of poems, and by more than an hour answering the audience's questions. * * * * * *A NON-CONVENTIONAL WOMAN: TWO EVENINGS WITH TASLIMA NASRIN* by Enrica Garzilli What is published after Nasrin's lecture, is a report of two evenings Garzilli spent with Taslima Nasrin in April 1996 in Cambridge (Mass., U.S.A.). Especially during the first, informal meeting and dinner, Garzilli approached Nasrin as a woman and a friend, trying to understand her, and to delve into her public, dramatic personality as a controversial and criticized writer and polemist, and as a symbol of freedom for thousands of women writers in the world. *********************************************************************** Enjoy the Reading! -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06100 Perugia Tel/Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) Journal of S. Asia Women Studies (www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/) ************************************************************** From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 10:57:25 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 11:57:25 +0100 Subject: Roman fonts for Indian languages Message-ID: <161227031961.23782.3432731161911337161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few weeks ago I made a set of fonts available for representation of Indian-language material in Roman script. They exist for both PC and Mac, in both TrueType and PostScript Type 1 forms, and they are available in both the CSX and Norman encodings. At the time I released these fonts, I was unaware of the specific restrictions imposed by Adobe Type Manager on the form of a Type 1 PostScript font, with the result that ATM rejected the .pfb files I supplied. This has now been fixed, and Windows users who would like to make use of the PostScript forms of these fonts should download the new versions. The ftp site is bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. Change to directory /pub/john/software/fonts/norman or /pub/john/software/fonts/csx_fonts as appropriate. Alternatively, use your web browser to connect to http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html and follow the "fonts" link. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From magier at columbia.edu Wed Aug 27 16:50:40 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 12:50:40 -0400 Subject: Roman fonts Message-ID: <161227031965.23782.12140063433680159718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The url for directly accessing these fonts with one click in any web browser is: ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts/ David Magier ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:05:06 BST From: John Smith Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk To: Members of the list Subject: Roman fonts for Indian languages A few weeks ago I made a set of fonts available for representation of Indian-language material in Roman script. They exist for both PC and Mac, in both TrueType and PostScript Type 1 forms, and they are available in both the CSX and Norman encodings. At the time I released these fonts, I was unaware of the specific restrictions imposed by Adobe Type Manager on the form of a Type 1 PostScript font, with the result that ATM rejected the .pfb files I supplied. This has now been fixed, and Windows users who would like to make use of the PostScript forms of these fonts should download the new versions. The ftp site is bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. Change to directory /pub/john/software/fonts/norman or /pub/john/software/fonts/csx_fonts as appropriate.. Alternatively, use your web browser to connect to http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html and follow the "fonts" link. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 16:57:37 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 17:57:37 +0100 Subject: Roman fonts Message-ID: <161227031967.23782.3265032031865832699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A link has been added to the Software page of the INDOLOGY web site All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE "Internet Spam Control Center" http://drsvcs.com/nospam/ , England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From DKumar6248 at aol.com Thu Aug 28 01:11:05 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 21:11:05 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography Message-ID: <161227031969.23782.65994244998879959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, I am pleased to bring to your attention that a discovery of fundamental importance concerning the Dravidian language family has been posted on the Internet at http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ Dravidian is cryptographic in nature and it is so imbued with the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution that without its operation, many times in co-operation with such other linguistic phenomena as the phonetic correspondences, there could scarcely have been the tightly knit languages of Dravidian. The realization of the cryptographic nature of Dravidian will provide us with great insight in the studies of many fields of not only Dravidian, but also Indo-Aryan. The reason why the site of this Indology List has been chosen as the first place for this announcement is that, because of the realization of the existence and operation of this ancient Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution, Indology is going to be much more interesting. In fact, I believe, it is never going to be the same again. One of the reasons for this is that numerous words, terms, names, etc., which occur in the ancient Indian texts, including the Vedas, are the result of the operation of this phenomenon. To put it concisely, they have been encoded by the employment of this linguistic technique of inversion and substitution. It may be noted that these words, names, etc., are not obscure items, (and there are, as scholars like T. Burrow have noted, a remarkable number of them in Sanskrit, the meanings of which are either unknown or obscure), but those which we have known for a long time; but we have not known that they are the result of the operation of this Dravidian linguistic phenomenon. This can be demonstrated by taking a name Drupada (who was the father of Droupadi, whose other names and black complexion have been the subject of a lively discussion on this site lately) in light of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution. It is well known to the Indologists that Drupada was a PanchAla king, the son of Prishata. In a legend concerning his birth, it is said that Prishata was childless, and in order to get an heir he lived in a forest performing the most severe penences. During this time an incident occurred: Prishata beheld the sight of the ravishing MEnaka, the apsara, when she was walking by in the forest in a diaphanous robe. Prishata lost his seed which fell to the ground. Ashamed that this happened, Prishata made a 'hasty step' (dru-pAda), and trod upon the seed, and tried to rub it away. But the seed lived, and from it a son was born bearing the name Drupada. The elements which should be kept in mind concerning this story are that Prishata took a stride and rubbed the seed. Now, in the Dravidian Kannada language, the word dApu denotes: stretch or the measure of a stride (DED #2433). Also in Kannada, the word urdu denotes: to rub (DED. #665). Now when we put these two Kannada words together as (dApu+urdu) dApuurdu, and invert the order of the consonants and vowels, it yields: udruupAd, which with the slightest change in the vowels, becomes drupada, which is Drupada, the name of the son of Prishata thus born according to the legend. It might be asked why we should look up these Dravidian words and their meanings alone and not the others? The simple reason is the same why we look for a certain meaning of a certain word in a dictionary. The linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution is an integral part of the greater Dravidian linguistic phenomenon. Without taking it into account, the true nature of the dravidian language family can not be fully comprehended. Besides, like always, regarding this illustration also, there are other related Kannada words which elucidate the relationship of the phenomenon of inversion and substitution with these words concerning Drupada. But, this announcement is not the place to mention them. Now, it should be noted that if the above noted case of Drupada was the only such example, we could have ascribed it to an accident or a chance. But the fact is, this is only one of the numerous illustrations which the phenomenon of inversion and substitution reveals to us regarding the words, terms, and names occurring in the ancient texts. This linguistic phenomenon (which has been defined in the above noted document as - the order of consonants in numerous Dravidian words participating in the phenomenon of inversion and substitution is reversed in their counterpart words with the same or logically related meaning or meanings, while the vowels of the former are usually, but not necessarily always, substituted by the vowels of the latter - ), is not a quirk in the Dravidian language family, it is not due to an accident or coincidence, but a linguistic technique conceived and deliberately applied by the ancient Dravidians who by its employment increased and enriched their vocabulary. The significance and usefulness of this phenomenon can be gathered by noticing the fact that the results of its operation are still with us to this day. It is in this respect that it can be said that this phenomenon is still alive in Dravidian, even though this linguistic secret has been forgotten for many centuries. The realization of the existence and operation of this ancient linguistic instrument will help us understand and solve some problems which face us in the pertaining fields. For instance,in spite of the knwon fact that the ancient Dravidians had profound religious experience and expression, how is that the names of most of the Indian deities, demons, and other natural and supernatural figures are in Indo-Aryan languages? Again, in view of the fact that the theory of the so-called invasion of the Aryans into prehistoric India has been proven to be false and utterly baseless, how do we account for the relationship that does exist between the Indo-Aryan and the Indo-European languages? I believe that the realization of the cryptographic nature of Dravidian and that of its implications will help us approach and solve these and other such problems with confidence. I also believe that we are entering a new era of understanding and research not only concerning the Dravidian and other Indian languages, but also in the understanding of the cultures, religions, and other manifestations of their speakers. First, however, this linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution must be understood and studied in its home, which is Dravidian. The World Wide Web site of the above noted document is best viewed on Netscape, for it has been observed that its contents do not take kindly to all browsers. It has also been noticed that certain browsers make the type of letters either too big or too small or the text crowded. Note that it is going to take some time to laod, and please be patient if the browser scrambles the contents. I will attempt to post other information and illustrations concerning Dravidian cryptography, but it would help the interested reader to go through the contents of the document first. I will also attempt to bring this document to the notice of each and every scholar through email etc., but I would appreciate it if the reader informs other interested scholars about the location of this document on the Internet on his or her own. Thanks in advance. Best regards. Yours, V.Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Thu Aug 28 11:52:38 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 12:52:38 +0100 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031972.23782.11451646622149812095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Dear Indologists, > Louis Renou, in L'Inde classique, I, ' 726, says, before the > azvamedha, must be throwed a dog's corpse under the horse's legs. > Does anyone know the meaning of this act ? Satapatha Brahmana 12.1.2.9 (in Eggeling's transl: Part V, p. 279): "... But his wicked enemy seeks to lay hold of him who performs the horse-sacrifice, and the horse is a thunderbolt;-- having killed the four-eyed dog, he -- with `Undone is the man! undone is the dog!' -- plunges it under the horse's feet: it is by means of the thunderbolt he thus stamps him down; and the wicked enemy does not lay hold of him." There are two lengthy footnotes to this passage, which I shan't type up, and they also refer one on to other texts (Samhita and Sutra). It appears that the sacrificial priest tells a mixed-caste woman or a lewd man to kill the four-eyed dog before passing it below the horse. "If a four-eyed dog is not available(!), a dog with marks about the eyes should be used." John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From thillaud at unice.fr Thu Aug 28 11:19:07 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 13:19:07 +0200 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031970.23782.15282774311813714972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Louis Renou, in L'Inde classique, I, ? 726, says, before the azvamedha, must be throwed a dog's corpse under the horse's legs. Does anyone know the meaning of this act ? Namaste, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 28 21:03:18 1997 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 14:03:18 -0700 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031974.23782.18163828389023355490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following article addresses your question: White, David Gordon. 1989. Dogs Die. History of Religions 28, no. 4: 283-303. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 12:26 PM 8/28/97 BST, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, > Louis Renou, in L'Inde classique, I, ' 726, says, before the >azvamedha, must be throwed a dog's corpse under the horse's legs. > Does anyone know the meaning of this act ? > Namaste, >Dominique > >Dominique THILLAUD >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > > From lpatton at emory.edu Thu Aug 28 21:48:10 1997 From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie Patton) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 17:48:10 -0400 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031976.23782.1739158769817657221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Taittiriya Brahmana 3.8.4.2 for relevant passage, which gives its own interpretation of the ritual act. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Laurie L. Patton + Dept. of Religion + Emory University + Atlanta, GA 30322 + PH: 404-727-5177 + FAX: 404-272-7597 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > At 12:26 PM 8/28/97 BST, you wrote: > >Dear Indologists, > > Louis Renou, in L'Inde classique, I, ' 726, says, before the > >azvamedha, must be throwed a dog's corpse under the horse's legs. > > Does anyone know the meaning of this act ? > > Namaste, > >Dominique > > > >Dominique THILLAUD > >Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > > > > > > > > > From roheko at classic.msn.com Fri Aug 29 00:53:34 1997 From: roheko at classic.msn.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 00:53:34 +0000 Subject: AW: cAra Message-ID: <161227031977.23782.6593362441154197676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I can agree. So can you help me also with the term praticAra, which is mentioned together with cAra? Both are part of the list of 72 arts which a young m a n has to be taught (correct English??) Heiner -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk im Auftrag von Dominique.Thillaud Gesendet am: Dienstag, 26. August 1997 13:47 An: Members of the list Betreff: Re: cAra At 14:12 +0200 25/08/97, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: >The term cAra is explained by the various scholars as "spy". The Buddhist >canon has not one example like this. The Jains commentators interpret cAra as >something like "Astrology" or better, I am not sure, as "making a Horoskop >(german)". I suppose the explanation "spy" is not right. Why an ancient king >needs to employ a spy in case his astrologers knew precisely the course of >the >enemy? Does anyone knows some more informations? Similar the term praticAra, >often mentioned together with cAra is not clear to me. >Thanks. Both meanings 'spy' and 'astrology' come naturally from a general 'to observe' and, despite Mayrhofer, cAra is probably linked with the Greek verb tEreO 'to observe' (root *kvEr-) and not with carati 'to walk' (root *kvel-). About using both spies and astrologers, I suppose a wise king use all the ways to have knowledge of the ennemy, because even if you trust the astrology, astrologers are men and can make mistakes. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From DKumar6248 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 07:52:45 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 03:52:45 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography; onomatopoeic: Message-ID: <161227031983.23782.5279404688556974169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology List, and other scholars, Since posting the announcement on 8/27/97 on this site about the publication of the work concerning the discovery of cryptography or the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution in the Dravidian language family at < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > I have been getting quite a few emails concerning the subject. It has been heartning to see the interest and the positive tone of the responses. After so many years of work, I am glad that this discovery has been disclosed to world view unlike in the case of my other work: The Sumerians: Their True Identity and the Evidence for it, which was a desktop publication of my manuscript. My thanks to all who have responded. To those who have asked for individual attention concerning the matter, I must submit my apologies, for it is quite impossible for me to answer so many all at once, and individually. But, I have attempted to classify questions into groups pertaing to a certain general area of the matter, and I will try to give general answer pertaining to each area, one at a time, and post it here so that others who may have the same question may also see the information. The question I would like to respond to is: are the results of the operation of the Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution hard to find? A general answer to this question is already clear when you notice the illustrations in the above noted published work. There are participating words which are used everyday by the Indians in general and the Dravidians in particular. There are also many words which are not used so popularly. But to answer the question whether they are hard to find or not, the answer must be: it is fairly easy if one is observant. In order to demonstrate this, I would like to take a few examples almost all of which belong to a class or category of words generally known to the scholars as the onomatopoeic expressions. They are similar to such English words as: bang, crunch, zap, etc. These, as might be gathered, are used in the daily speech of people speaking any language. So they are not obscure words in Dravidian languages also. Most of them are in the colloquial sphere of Dravidian, and unfortunately nobody has made a special attempt to gather them all and publish them in a systematic manner. No dictionary concerning itself with a Dravidian language or languages has paid much attention to them. Nothing significant has been done about the colloquial words, terms, etc., by the scholars in spite of the fact that almost all of them are of very ancient age and contain considerable information concerning the ancient Dravidians, their cultures, religions, and their relationship with other peoples. Since these are not included in the dictionaries, scholars, particularly those who have to rely on dictionaries for their research concerning the Dravidians, miss much that might be useful to them. Now, assuming that you have read the above noted work to the extent that you are aware of the various types of words which have been influenced by the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution in Dravidian, (that is, factors such as that sometimes an addition or subtraction of the partcipating consonant or consonants, vowel or vowels takes place, sometimes they vary due to such factors as the phonetic correspondences affecting them, and so on), let us start with the Tamil: kopp-enal, which is defined as an onomatopoeic expression of moving suddenly (DED. #2112). The element we should be concerned with here is kopp, because enal is attached to almost all of this type of words in Tamil; it is similar to the English 'thus' or 'like' - in that manner - as in 'the expression 'like crunch'. Now, the inverted and substituted form of this Tamil: kopp-enal is the other Tamil: pakk-enal, which is another onomatopoeic expression of being sudden (DED. #3813). As can be seen in these two expressions the order of the consonats in one is reversed in the other (there is of course the addition of a consonant and the role played by the substituting vowels), and they both essentially denote the same meaning even though they are pronounced differently and are located in two different places in the dictionary (DED). They are both onomatopoeic expressions. Now, we can take pett-enal, which is a Tamil onomatopoeic expression signifying quickness (DED. #4393). Here we need to notice that the related words of this pett-enal are the Tulu: pettugu, and pettige, denoting: immediately (DED. #4393). Now, the inverted and substituted form of pett-enal is the currently existing tapukk-enal, which is also an expression signifying haste in Tamil (DED. #3069). Notice again that both of these are also onomatopoeic expressions signifyng essentially the same meaning: quickness or haste. We may also notice that there are the other Tamil: pata-pat-enal (which is another onomatopoeic expression signifying hurry or speaking in haste - DED. #3842 -), and pata-pat-enal (another onomatopoeic expression signifying the trembling of the heart - DED. #3910; that is, there is the element of hurriedness or quickness in the beat of the heart) which are also in the picture we are witnessing here. There is also the other Tamil: potukk-enal, which is another onomatopoeic expression signifying quickness (DED. #4483). Notice how the above noted tapukku and this potukk end in kk, even though the order of the consonants in the rest of one is reversed in the rest of the other. Next, we have the Tamil: patar-patar-enal (DED.#3841), which has its inverted and substituted form in the othet Tamil: tapar-enal DED. #2947), both of which are onomatopoeic expression signifyng: cracking. Note also that there is the Kannada: teppa, which denotes: suddenly (DED.#3069), which has its inverted and substituted form in the Tulu: patta, also denting: suddenly (DED. #3842). Further, we may notice the case of another Tamil taka-tak-enal, which is an onomatopoeic expression of boiling (DED. #2997), which has its inverted and substituted form in the Kannada colloquial: kata-kata or kota-kota, which is an onomatopoeic expression of boiling. The Kannada kudi and kata-kata also have their inverted and substituted form in the Tamil: uduku (meaning: to boil - DED. 588 -) which is, of course, related to the bove noted Tamil: taka-tak-enal, and another Tamil: tiku-tik-enal, which is also an onomatopeic expression signifying: bubbling of water (DED. #3203). Notice that another Tamil: taka-tak-enal denotes: glittering (DED. #2998), and it has its inverted and substituted form in the Toda: kot- (koty-), denoting: glitter (DED. #1207). There is the Malayalam: taka taka, which denotes: beating time (DED. #2997), and it has its inverted and substituted form in the Tamil: kotti, which denotes: time measure (DED. #2063), and the other Tamil: kottu, meaning: to beat (as drum), time measure (DED.#2063). These latter words denoting drumbeat, and time measure are realted to such other Tamil words as kitukku-kitukk-enal, which is an onomatopoeic expression signifyng hollow sound (DED. #1531), kitukku, which denotes: small drum (DED. #1531), and these in their turn are related to such other words as utukkai denoting: small drum (DED.#589), so on and so forth. And we have not even exhausted the ones in the dictionary, let alone those which are in the colloquial spheres of these languages! So, yes, the phenomenon of inversion and substitution in Dravidian can be witnessed fairly easily, for the Dravidian language family is imbued with it. What is more important is the fact that it is not hard to see this phenomenon when we are witnessing words, terms, names, etc., which pertain to the ancient gods, goddesses, demons, and which are used in the Indo-Aryan languages. Thanks for your patience. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > < dkumar6248 at aol.com > From jwoo at sas.upenn.edu Fri Aug 29 08:00:40 1997 From: jwoo at sas.upenn.edu (jwoo at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 04:00:40 -0400 Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat Message-ID: <161227031984.23782.11174843383329038934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members: In order to explicate that existence (sattva) is asAdhAraNAnaikAntika hetu, VAcaspatimizra gives 'gandhavattva' as an example in his TAtparyaTIkA (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha,1985: 841.9). In their refutations of this view of VAcaspatimizra, both JjAnasrImitra and RatnakIrti quote this example (JN 2ed. A. Thakur, 1987: 50.13 and RN 2ed. A. Thakur, 1975: 80.8). It seems that the 'gandhavattva' is well-known example to both sides of debaters. So far, however, I have not succeeded in identifying the source of the example. I would appreciate it in advance if somebody helps me with this. Jeson Woo A Visiting Scholar Dept. of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu Fri Aug 29 14:27:28 1997 From: pmg6s at server1.mail.virginia.edu (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 07:27:28 -0700 Subject: dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031986.23782.1490941909895331384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See David White's book -Myths of the Dog-Man-, Chicago 1991. ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies Cocke Hall University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22901 From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 29 07:24:48 1997 From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 12:24:48 +0500 Subject: Ayur Vedic or Tibetan Medical Texts Message-ID: <161227031981.23782.3112855673087230665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are publishing the English translation of the Rgyud-bzi, it containsTibetan text in Roman, Sanskrit restoration and English translation of the text.Four volumes have been published so far.The English translation is by Vaidya Bhagwan Dash, Each volume is US$ 40-00. You can also visit our site at http://ibcindia.com for books on Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine Thanking you Sunil Gupta On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, David Dargie wrote: > I have a friend who would like to acquire a book dealing with medical > diagnosis and treatment in Sanskrit and/or Tibetan. > > The book would included Tibetan/Sanskrit original with english translation, > perhaps by CandrAnada or rGyu-Zhi or with commentaries by the same. > > She already is familar with > > Author: Vogel, Klaus > Title: Astangahrdayasamhita: the first five chapters of its tibetan version ... > Place of Publication: Wiesbaden > Publisher: Franz Steiner > Publication Date: 1965 > > > She is especially interested in any text of this ilk that discusses pulses > and their diagnosis. > > Could anyone help me with this? > > Thanks in advance > > David Dargie > > ***************************************************************** > David Dargie > Centre for Language Teaching and Research > University of Queensland > email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au > Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 > Home: +61 7 3397 6863 > ***************************************************************** > > > From sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 29 20:47:09 1997 From: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 12:47:09 -0800 Subject: Job Listing Message-ID: <161227031989.23782.15792165965409473342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Department of South and Southeast Studies of the University of California at Berkeley invites applications for a full-time, tenure or tenure-track position in Sanskrit Language and Literature to be effective July 1, 1998. The rank of the appointment is open and will depend on the qualifications of the successful applicant. Applicants must possess the Ph.D. in some area of Sanskrit Language and Literature. Familiarity with spoken Sanskrit will be an advantage. Knowledge of one or more Middle Indic languages is required and familiarity with at least one New Indic (Indo-Aryan or Dravidian) language is highly desirable. Training in historical and comparative Linguistics and a good grounding in VyAkaraNa is essential. Research specialization is open, but the successful candidate will be expected to have demonstrated competence in at least one area from among the three central fields of traditional Sanskrit learning: Vyakarana, Sahitya and Darshana. It is expected that the successful applicant will be able to demonstrate scholarly familiarity with various genres and forms of the language. Applicants must additionally demonstrate significant engagement with the theoretical and methodological concerns of contemporary literary, social, historical and cultural scholarship on South Asia and should be aware of contemporary developments in language pedagogy. Such demonstration will be in the form of a corpus of completed research writing appropriate to the stage in his or her career. Teaching responsibilities will include advanced courses in Sanskrit and Middle Indic languages and literatures, upper division and graduate lectures and seminars in Indian literature and civilization as well as undergraduate and graduate courses on the cultures, religions, literatures and civilizations of traditional and contemporary South Asia. Applicants' letters should describe their current and projected research and teaching interests and should be accompanied by copies of relevant publications, vita, the names and addresses of three referees, and, where available, evaluations of teaching. APPLICATION DEADLINE: FRIDAY, December 12, 1997 Direct applications and inquiries to: The Chair, Sanskrit Search Committee Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 The University of California is an Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action Employer. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Chairman Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Center for South Asia Studies University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Aug 29 11:17:24 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 13:17:24 +0200 Subject: AEGEANET Anti-Spam Web Site Message-ID: <161227031993.23782.9491517492499687787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Subject: AEGEANET Anti-Spam Web Site >Sender: aegeanet-owner at acpub.duke.edu >Precedence: bulk >Status: U > >I encourage anyone receiving spam to visit out the following web site, >dedicated to the eradication of spam and other forms of abuse of e-mail, >Usenet, &c. > >http://www.abuse.net > >Please feel free to distribute this message to other effected discussion >lists. Sorry to continue the thread, but here is a solution that has not yet been suggested. I urge all Aegeanet members to forward the unsolicited message (if you still have it) to postmaster at rocketmail.com. It is almost universal that these free Email accounts come with the stipulation that no bulk mailings will be sent out. If they are aware that this person sent out this bulk mailing, and enough people complain about it, they will probably drop her from their service. Be sure that the full mail header is included in the forward, this will show that it did come from their service. Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Aug 29 11:44:00 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 13:44:00 +0200 Subject: AW: cAra Message-ID: <161227031995.23782.2892729949415795117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 2:59 +0200 29/08/97, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: >Yes, I can agree. So can you help me also with the term praticAra, which is >mentioned together with cAra? Both are part of the list of 72 arts which a >young m a n has to be taught (correct English??) Sorry, I can't. Just an idea without any proof. If I'm unable to imagine the meaning of praticAra with cAra = astrologer, I can imagine with cAra = spy, observer the meaning counter-espionage, protection against the observers. Naturally, such terms would be frequently linked. Perhaps you can try to test it ? Namaste, Dominique PS: I'm unable to correct your English, but I've understanded it ;-) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu Fri Aug 29 18:04:34 1997 From: chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 14:04:34 -0400 Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat Message-ID: <161227031988.23782.7008650791457715222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Members: > >In order to explicate that existence (sattva) is asAdhAraNAnaikAntika >hetu, VAcaspatimizra gives 'gandhavattva' as an example in his >TAtparyaTIkA (NyAyadarzanam, ed. T. Nyaya-Tarkatirtha,1985: 841.9). In >their refutations of this view of VAcaspatimizra, both JjAnasrImitra and >RatnakIrti quote this example (JN 2ed. A. Thakur, 1987: 50.13 and RN 2ed. >A. Thakur, 1975: 80.8). > >It seems that the 'gandhavattva' is well-known example to both sides of >debaters. So far, however, I have not succeeded in identifying the source >of the example. > >I would appreciate it in advance if somebody helps me with this. > >Jeson Woo >A Visiting Scholar >Dept. of Indian Philosophy >Hiroshima University Dear Jeson: I recall having searched in vain for a source for the example 'gandhavattvavat', which occurs first in VAcaspati's NyAyakaNikA (Pandit edition 137.2; my dissertation, 529.4). If some other member can identify a source, I too will be grateful. Please also note that, when JjAnazrImitra quotes this example, it is within a long quote from NyAyakaNikA that Thakur did not identify (JN 2nd ed.49.18-50.19, quoting NyAyakaNikA Pandit ed. 136.4-137.8 = my dissertation 527.526.7-530.5). RatnakIrti also seemed to be following NyAyakaNikA more than NyAyavArttikatAtparyaTIkA, but I recall that influence from the parallel passage in NyAyavArttikatAtparyaTIkA cannot be ruled out, as RatnakIrti weaves together quotation and paraphrase. Elliot Stern Philadelphia Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Fri Aug 29 06:17:11 1997 From: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au (dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 16:17:11 +1000 Subject: Ayur Vedic or Tibetan Medical Texts Message-ID: <161227031979.23782.12448846166746647985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a friend who would like to acquire a book dealing with medical diagnosis and treatment in Sanskrit and/or Tibetan. The book would included Tibetan/Sanskrit original with english translation, perhaps by CandrAnada or rGyu-Zhi or with commentaries by the same. She already is familar with Author: Vogel, Klaus Title: Astangahrdayasamhita: the first five chapters of its tibetan version ... Place of Publication: Wiesbaden Publisher: Franz Steiner Publication Date: 1965 She is especially interested in any text of this ilk that discusses pulses and their diagnosis. Could anyone help me with this? Thanks in advance David Dargie ***************************************************************** David Dargie Centre for Language Teaching and Research University of Queensland email: dargie at lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 3365 6917 Home: +61 7 3397 6863 ***************************************************************** From chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu Fri Aug 29 23:13:29 1997 From: chibbard at pobox.upenn.edu (Chris Hibbard/E. Stern) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 19:13:29 -0400 Subject: Qe: gandhavattvavat; correction Message-ID: <161227031991.23782.10513634187967764615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my reply earlier today, I absentmindedly erred on a page reference: for (JN 2nd ed.49.18-50.19, quoting NyAyakaNikA Pandit ed. 136.4-137.8 = my dissertation 527.526.7-530.5), please read (JN 2nd ed.49.18-50.19, quoting NyAyakaNikA Pandit ed. 136.4-137.8 = my dissertation 526.7-530.5) I should also have given the dissertation reference: "VidhivivekaH" of MandanamizraH, with commentary, "NyAyakaNikA," of VAcaspatimizraH, and supercommentaries, "JuSadhvaGkaraNI" and "SvaditaGkaraNI," of ParamezvaraH, critical and annotated edition: the pUrvapakSaH (University of Pennsylvania, 1988). I hope to have the whole work (pUrvapakSaH, and uttarapakSaH) ready to send off to a publisher in the spring of 1988. Elliot M. Stern Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 USA From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Aug 29 23:25:48 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 97 01:25:48 +0200 Subject: end of the dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031997.23782.13161024110617328464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to John Smith, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, Laurie Patton and Patricia Meredith who give me together a full answer. Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Hrid at aol.com Sat Aug 30 14:14:07 1997 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 97 10:14:07 -0400 Subject: end of the dog's corpse Message-ID: <161227031999.23782.6776694937909357792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those of us who will not read those books and articles, could we find, briefly, out on this forum the mystery behind the dog? From DKumar6248 at aol.com Sun Aug 31 04:22:40 1997 From: DKumar6248 at aol.com (DKumar6248 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 97 00:22:40 -0400 Subject: Dravidian Cryptography:Vyasa Message-ID: <161227032000.23782.2229045724630347462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear member of the Indology List, I have been asked through email whether one can quote short statements from my document about Dravidian cryptography or the linguistic phenomenon of inversion and substitution for noncommercial purpose. And I want to make it clear that, like we all do in our academic discussions, one can with due acknowledgment. To those who wanted to know when I posted my other communication: on 8/28/97. Some have asked me what are the other keys or tools needed to explore this phenomenon further: When we select certain tools, it also means that we are leaving behind some others which have not performed well. These are the notions, suppositions, unproven and unprovable theories, and such others concerning the Indian phenomenon in general and the Dravidian phenomenon in particular whether it is linguistic, cultural, religious, or any other aspect of this people. One who leaves this baggage behind and goes with the right tools will travel light and far toward truth and knowledge. The first key is the realization of the existence and operation of this linguistic phenomenon in Dravidian. Any lock or door needs to be opened just once. And this has been done by the publication of the document concerning this phenomenon. In the endeavor to explore this phenomenon, my experiance is that the Dravidian Kannada and Tamil languages are primary tools, eventhough it has been observed that other so-called minor Dravidian languages such as the Toda and Tulu contain numerous ancient and valuable linguistic, cultural, and religious elements, not to speak of, of course, the importance of the other literary languages such as the Telugu and Malayalam; (note that the name of this latter Dravidian language can be read in the reverse order). But of all the Dravidian languages, Kanada (as it is almost always pronounced in its daily speech) or Kannada (used in writing) signifies itself to be considered not only beacuse it performs well, but also it has still retained the same name by which the ancient Sumerians called themselves: kanada (See Oh Angry Sea (a-ab-ba hu-luh-ha): The History of a Sumerian Congressional Lament by Raphael Kutscher; edited by William W. Hallow -editor- Jacob J. Finkelstein, and William K. Simpson; Yale University Press; New Haven:1975; p.160). The fact that the name of a people and that of their land goes by the name of the language they predominantly speak is well known. For instance, the French people who live in France speak French. The people who live in Germany call themselves and their language German. In their documents the ancient Sumerians also called themselves the Black Heads (Samuel Noah Kramer; 1963;pp.285-86), and the Dravidian Todas, in their songs, precisely call themselves: the black headed ones (DED. #1278(a), and DED. #1494; these Todas need to be studied thoroughly, because not only most of them look like the Greeks, but they dress like the ancient Greeks, not to mention that they have many customs and traditions which are strikingly similar to those of the Greeks), and they live as neighbours of both the Kannada speaking and the Tamil speaking Dravidians. The Todas call the land of Kannada: Karno.t, which not surprisingly also denotes: ancient, of ancient times (DED. #1284). Most importantly, it is well known that Kannada means: black land, and black language, and we all also know that a language which is used for magical purposes is many times referred to as a black language. All this is important in the context of the ancient Sumerian language which even after its demise as a popular speech in Mesopotamia, servived as the religious language of the Semitic Akkadians who revered it as much as the ancient Sumerians did; (it is clear to me that when the Sumerologist Samuel Noah Kramer stated that there was much interrelationship between the Sumerians and the Semitic Akkadians, he was only making an understatement; there was much more intimacy between the two peoples than meets the eye). Some scholars have noted that Sumerian hymns were being sung in Mesopotamian temples as late as the first century B.C. or later. Sumerian was thus conceived as a language imbued with magic and religious significans. In the Indian theater, there is much evidence that Dravidian Kannada, the black language, also performed in the same manner. So, it is not surprising that numerous words, terms, names occurring in the ancient Indian texts are easily recognizable in their inverted and substituted forms in Kannada. It is also significant that a striking number of ancient Indian scholars and sages including Vyasa "arranger" of the Vedas, who appear in the Hindu scriptures are reputed to have belonged to the so-called "an-Aryas" or they were their descendants on their mother or father's side, and as having dark complexion. Knowing what we know about Dravidian and its phenomenon of inversion and substitution today, it is not hard to gather that these scholars and sages (rishis) may have had not a little orientation in Dravidian language or languages and their phenomena. It is not surprising that the name Vyasa is an inverted and substituted form of the Kannada word save denoting: prepare, to be made ready (DED #2342; note that one of the related Telugu word precisely denotes: to arrange - DED#2342). The origin of the term rishi is noted as unceratin but it has been thought to have derived from a word denoting: "flow" (Benjamin Walker; The Hindu World; 1968; Vol.II;p.297). Here, note the Kannada word sOr, which denotes: flow as coconut water (DED.2883), the inverted and substituted form of which is rishi. Best regards. Yours V. Keerthi Kumar < http://www.mninter.net/~kumar/ > email: < dkumar6248 at aol.com >