From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 1 01:28:12 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 17:28:12 -0800 Subject: Are violins endowed with religious significance? (was Re: european musical instruments in India) Message-ID: <161227029244.23782.2912924876700946208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, adheesh sathaye wrote: > [..] > which we were familiar. However, when playing the violin, there is > necessarily contact with the foot. > > This raises a few questions: > > ** 1) Is this prohibition of 'foot contact' really as explicit as I have > made it out to be? I should think not. The Sitar is held diagonally over the left shoulder, but the gourd on the right is stabilized by the left foot. For the south Indian Veena, two postures are recognized: one in which the stem of the Veena is held diagonally across, and another in which the left gourd rests on the left lap. There is even a third "Urdhva" posture said to have been used by Veena Venkatramana Das, a famous musician from Andhra Pradesh, who held the Veena vertically up. For whatever it is worth, I can personally testify that it is impossible to hold the Veena either vertically up or diagonally across the left shoulder (and still play), without stabilizing the resonator bowl with your foot. Among the north Indian Vainikas, only Zia Moinuddin Dagar seems to hold the Rudra Veena on his left lap. Almost everybody else holds the Rudra Veena diagonally across, and again the left foot is used to stabilize the huge gourd on the right. Thus, by no means is foot contact either explicitly prohibited or subconsciously avoided. > > This is basically the crux of the argument; if this rule is not explicit or > very widespread, then there is no further debate. > > However, if it is true, then we must assume it has to do with either the > association of the said instruments with either religious sanctity, or with > levels of respect. (That is, the same respect is accorded to the instrument > as is given to other people, with whom 'foot contact' is also explicitly > prohibited.) That is why I brought up the flute and nadaswaram. While only non-Brahmin castes typically play the nadaswaram, there is a huge amount of religious association with the instrument in south India. No temple procession is complete without two nadaswarams leading it, notwithstanding a conceivably similar prohibition against the polluting contact of saliva. I don't think explicit rules can be stated that apply all across India. As far as Carnatic music is concerned, Brahmins, who tend to be the most orthoprax about such things, have been playing the flute and the mridangam (which could again be "non-kosher", because it uses animal hide) for close to two centuries now. Sarabha Sastri, the flautist, and Tanjavur Vaidyanatha Iyer, the mridangist, both lived in the post-1850 period, when Brahmins got increasingly involved in classical music. This is the same period when the violin rose to prominence. Any theory that talks of the violin being considered 'on par' with other stringed Indian instruments in religious terms also has to account for non-stringed Indian instruments consistently. > > ** 2) If either of these is the case, then why the discrepancy when it > comes to the violin? > > I suggest that if the violin was truly considered 'on par' with other Indian > classical instruments, then there would necessarily be this same prohibition > of foot contact, and thus in the development of the Indian playing style > (once again a question of origins) this consideration would have to be taken > into account--perhaps by resting the violin on a different part of the body, > or on a cushion a la the tabla. My suggestion was, although primarily in An intriguing suggestion, but playing a violin whose scroll rests on a cushion a la the tabla will break your back. > jest, the possibility that the early players were indeed conscious of the > disrespectful nature of foot contact, and it was a deliberate statement on > their part....A subalternist approach to classical Indian music, if you will.... > One of the earliest Indians to play the violin, Baluswami Dikshitar, was a younger brother of Muttuswami Dikshitar, the famous composer. The entire Dikshitar family was steeped in religious activity. I should think that if they were concerned about the foot contact, Baluswami Dikshitar might have preferred not to play the violin at all, rather than make some deliberate statement about it. > Or perhaps, more seriously that indeed the violin is not endowed with the > same sort of sacred overtones as other classical instruments, and thus the > aforementioned prohibition need not apply.... I disagree. All musical instruments, and for that matter, even other kinds of instruments, are endowed with some sacred overtones in the general Hindu mindset. On the day before Dassehra, Hindu workers in all Indian factories ceremonially worship their industrial equipment. The military men worship their tanks and missiles. Thus, this sort of reverence is extended not just to books and musical instruments. The entire notion that the violin does not have sacred overtones to it overlooks this sentiment. Take a look at the violin and the violin case of any visiting Carnatic musician to see what I mean. S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 1 01:35:26 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 17:35:26 -0800 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029245.23782.11705711883940712150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: [..] > > But Pandit Subramaniam sounds > somewhat awkward... in S.Indian musical idiom, it is just > S'rI L.Subramaniam or VidvAn L.Subramaniam. > The south Indian usage also gracefully avoids the Pandit vs. Ustad designations of North Indian music. Sheikh Chinna Moulana and Rajaratnam Pillai are both called vidvans. The word Pandit is generally reserved in south Indian usage for Sanskrit scholars and such. S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 1 02:21:30 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 18:21:30 -0800 Subject: Question on Patanjali (Kashmir and P's MB) and kApyas Message-ID: <161227029247.23782.17606049647778610730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: [..] > > Can 'possession' by a gandharva be taken to suggest that the wife mentioned > in passage 3.7.1 of the above upaniSad is at least culturally non-Vedic? > The Vedic scholars on this list should be able to expand on the following. Possession by (or at least association with) one or more gandharvas seems to be commonly applied to women in general. In the rgvedic hymns relating the marriage of sUryA, the first three husbands of the bride are Soma, an unnamed gandharva and Agni. The mortal husband is the fourth. This hymn is commonly used in weddings, I believe. One particular gandharva named viSvAvasu is also associated with women in the Vedic hymns. Other than rgvedic references, the BU also has one reference to this gandharva, in the portion relating to the sexual relations of a married couple. After eating the food prepared according to the sthAlI-pAka, viSvAvasu is requested to go away before the husband lies with the wife. These references to gandharvas seem to be quite general, with no indication that the woman in question is culturally non-Vedic. So I doubt if such a general indication can be read in the two references to patancala kApya. In fact, unless all women are deemed to be culturally non-Vedic, the opposite conclusion might be equally or more valid. What I find interesting is that this kApya seems to have had both his wife and his daughter possessed by specific gandharvas. But this possession by a non-human spirit does not seem to have any negative connotations to it. There is no mention of any attempts to exorcise the gandharvas out. Another interesting thing is that these gandharvas are an Angirasa (sudhanva, who possesses the daughter) and an atharvaNa (kabandha, who possesses the wife). And both gandharvas know something important about brahman that patancala kApya and his students do not. For example, kabandha's question sets the background for the very significant antaryAmi brAhmaNa of the upanishad. Assuming a broad textual contemporaneity of the upanishads and the atharvAngiras, this might be of some significance. S. Vidyasankar From wgw at dnai.com Tue Apr 1 04:44:55 1997 From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 20:44:55 -0800 Subject: ye me bhakta-janah partha ... Message-ID: <161227029250.23782.13894388585032361419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: I received this message from a colleague. I can't answer it. Can anyone else? Regards, Bill >Newsgroups: Sanskrit >Dear Panditas, > ye me bhakta-janaa.h paartha na me bhaktaa's ca te janaa.h mad-bhaktaanaam ca ye bhaktaas te me bhakta-tamaa mataa.h >I'm looking for the reference of the above verse-spoken by Lord Krsna. In Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 11.28, this verse is quoted by Krsnadasa Kaviraja, and it is cited as from from "Adi Purana". > >Now, I never heard of Adi Purana. Can it be "Adi-parva" (of Mahabharata) > >If so (and also if not), can anyone give me the exact number of the >respective chapter and verse? > >Thank you very much. >Your servant, Raja Vidya Dasa > > William G Wall, Ph.D. Institute for Vaisnava Studies Graduate Theological Union PO Box 11216 Berkeley CA 94712 (510) 849-8280 (office) email: wgw at dnai.com Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se From jaybee at tm.net.my Tue Apr 1 06:11:58 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 22:11:58 -0800 Subject: Happy New Year! Message-ID: <161227029683.23782.4369309243227046329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter J. Claus wrote: > > Date: April 14, 1997 > > Indology List > indology at Liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Members, > > Happy Tamil New Year to everyone and especially those > of you who took the trouble to help me understand why > it always falls on this day in Tamil Nadu (and, as I > have discovered, Sri Lanka and Malaysia among other > places, no doubt). > > Peter J. Claus > fax: (510) 704-9636 > pclaus at csuhayward.edu Thank you so much. Wish you prosperity and success. JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia. From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Apr 1 05:44:17 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 00:44:17 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029251.23782.2522891560562790574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Danie'lou has translated the Tamil epic 'cilappatikAram' as a separate work entitled, "Shilappadikaram (The ankle Bracelet) By Prince Ilango Adigal" A New Directions Book, 1965, Published by New Directions Publishing Corporation, 333 Sixth Avenue, New York 14. In the introduction he says, "I was led to the study of tThe Ankle Bracelet in the course of my work on ancient Indian literature concerning musical theory The interest of the novel seemed to me so great that I undertook its complete translation. The interpretation of of the numerous technical terms on the text - many of which earlier editors had considered obscure - is based on my analysis of the theoretical possibilities of the ancient musical system and on parallel theories found in Sanskrit works on music dating between the commencement of the Christian Era and the tenth century. Certain of these interpretations, however, remain hypotheses, and further research may produce a few variants." Since the time he produced this book, there has been considerable progress in Tamil musicology. However, due to the separation of language studies and music/musicological studies in the present day Tamilnadu, one side does not know what is happening on the other side. Dr. S. Ramanathan's work in his dissertation on music of cilappatikaram at Wesleyan was further advanced by Dr. V. P. K. Sundaram currently at Bharatidasan University in Tiruchirappalli. The 82-year old Dr. Sundaram has cleared many obscurities and errors with regard to ancient Tamil musicology and is in the process of completing his third volume of the Musical Encyclopedia of Tamil, published by the university. Since he is also a Tamil scholar, he was able to state that that puranIrmaip paN was not rAga pauLi but zivaranjani. Similarly, indaLap paN was not mAlava gauLai but rAga hindoLam. He has also explained the two different processes of paNNup peyarttal (in Tamil) or grahabeda (in Sanskrit) and clearly established the basic musical scale of ancient Tamils as 'cempAlaip paN' or present rAga harikAmbodi. I may be wrong on this, but my cursory impression is that the new translation of cilappatikAram by Parthasarathy does not pay much attention to the music and dance aspect of cilappatikAram. Regards. S. Palaniappan From jaybee at tm.net.my Tue Apr 1 09:54:45 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 01:54:45 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: REQUEST:Cloning of sheep:Duplicate Souls?] Message-ID: <161227029724.23782.7059287750668356763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the Hon.Members of the List might have something to say in this matter.....? JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 5052 URL: From thompson at jlc.net Tue Apr 1 12:06:10 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 08:06:10 -0400 Subject: Danielou Message-ID: <161227029261.23782.4626445882616855835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >>Also with due respect, I would like to point out that, as the biographical >>notes reproduced by Dominique show (which don't mention that he put together >>recordings for UNESCO), Danielou was mainly an expert on Indian music. >> > I seem to remember that Danielou also produced a translation of the Kama >Sutra, so he did not only work with music. > >Lars Martin Fosse Well, now that you mention it, Lars Martin, I recall that a few years ago this semi-employed Sanskritist was invited by a small Vermont publisher of "esoteric" books to review Danielou's translation of the KAma SUtra into English, along with the Sanskrit commentary of Yazodhara and extracts from the Hindi commentary of Devadatta ZAstrI. I was asked to read Danielou's manuscript [in English, which was apparently prepared with the help of Kenneth Hurry] and to help the book's editor to present a consistent and informal [i.e., accessible] transliteration system of the extensive Sanskrit and Hindi terminology that was used in D's translation [with several glossaries]. I was also asked to correct any mistakes that I might by chance observe. Now, I am a Vedicist with no special knowledge of the India of VAtsyAyana's time, but the publisher was apparently under intense deadline pressure, and was eager to print the thing on time. As a result, I was rather abruptly offered a few dollars to look at it, and so, unresisting, I spent a couple of weeks trying to make D's Sanskrit references consistent and correct [not knowing Hindi, I did not touch D's translation from it]. Also, I did not have access to the Sanskrit text itself. So I have certain misgivings about my involvement in this publication, which in an editor's note cites my "assistance with the Sanskrit terminology." Given these reservations, here are my impressions of D's translation of the KAma SUtra: he moves skillfully and easily [perhaps TOO easily] between Hindi and Sanskrit. I found that he sometimes did not bother to distinguish between Sanskrit and Hindi terms for certain aphrodisiacs and for technical terms referring to assorted sexual practices. This caused me great consternation as I searched for correct Sanskrit forms for highly technical terms of Hindu erotic technology. But it did not make me doubt his knowledge of the issues treated in the text. Does this translation show that D was an impeccable philologist? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it has convinced me that he was very intimate with traditional Hindu culture [in this case, erotics]. I know that, in spite of whatever errors I might not have been able to catch, D's translation is, for me, both informative and illuminating. I found the work that I did on his MS profitable for myself [though not monetarily]. Was he a good Indologist? Yes [because there is room under that label for others besides philologists]. In defense of Dominique, perhaps it was the gossipy tone of Jacob's query that set him off.... In any case, what about these "Kannada words in a Greek play"? Anyone? George Thompson From jagat at polyinter.com Tue Apr 1 14:44:19 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 09:44:19 -0500 Subject: ye me bhakta-janah partha ... Message-ID: <161227029258.23782.5117303247610186659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Wall, This verse is found in Bhaktirasamritasindhu (1.2.218), as are so many other quotations found in Caitanyacaritamrita. Unfortunately, Rupa Gosvami has only specified Adipurana as the source of the verse, and I cannot say more than that, never having seen the Adipurana. Jan At 05:53 97-04-01 BST, you wrote: >Greetings: > >I received this message from a colleague. I can't answer it. Can anyone else? > >Regards, > >Bill > > > > >>Newsgroups: Sanskrit > >>Dear Panditas, > >> >ye me bhakta-janaa.h paartha >na me bhaktaa's ca te janaa.h >mad-bhaktaanaam ca ye bhaktaas >te me bhakta-tamaa mataa.h > >>I'm looking for the reference of the above verse-spoken by Lord Krsna. In >Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 11.28, this verse is quoted by Krsnadasa >Kaviraja, and it is cited as from from "Adi Purana". >> >>Now, I never heard of Adi Purana. Can it be "Adi-parva" (of Mahabharata) >> >>If so (and also if not), can anyone give me the exact number of the >>respective chapter and verse? >> >>Thank you very much. >>Your servant, Raja Vidya Dasa >> >> > > >William G Wall, Ph.D. >Institute for Vaisnava Studies >Graduate Theological Union >PO Box 11216 >Berkeley CA 94712 >(510) 849-8280 (office) > >email: wgw at dnai.com >Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se > > > > > Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From jagat at polyinter.com Tue Apr 1 14:57:50 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 09:57:50 -0500 Subject: ye me bhakta-janah partha ... Message-ID: <161227029260.23782.17999073665544678921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Wall, Excuse me, I noticed that the BRS quotation that I referred to is slightly different than the one found in CC. The last line reads mama bhaktaas tu te naraa.h. I call these types of verses 'free floating quotations'. There are, for example, numerous quotations ascribed to the Brahmavaivarta purana in the works of the Gosvamis which cannot be found in any extant version. I believe that the R. C. Hazra has made some comments on the Adi Purana in his work on the Upapuranas. Jan Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Tue Apr 1 15:38:04 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 10:38:04 -0500 Subject: FYI: IJHS Inaugural issue is out Message-ID: <161227029262.23782.10090619869799528461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> April, 1997 Dear Colleagues, As active authors and researchers in the field of Hindu Studies, broadly conceived, you will be interested to learn that the inaugural issue of your INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES has now appeared. Information about the Journal is appended below, and includes the content page. Do not hesitate to ask if you need any more information. With best wishes. Sincerely yours, Rejean Gauvreau International Journal of Hindu Studies World Heritage Press 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 [Temporary] Email ************************************************************************** INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES is a forum for the presentation of research studies on Hindu societies and cultures and for the discussion of different approaches to their study. ISSN: 1022-4556 Editor: Sushil Mittal Publisher: World Heritage Press, Journals Division, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Sponsor: International Institute of India Studies Frequency: Three times a year: April, August, and December Article selection: Peer review Subscription rates: Institutions $150.00 Individuals $60.00 Students $30.00 -Orders from outside Canada must be paid in US dollars. -Orders from outside North America, add $6 for postage. Canadians, please add 7% GST as follows: $4.20 individuals, $2.10 students, $10.50 institutions. ------------------------------------------------------------------ /^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^\ < INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES > \v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v/ Volume 1 Number 1 January-April 1997 ISSN 1022-4556 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TABLE OF CONTENTS Editorial, 1-2 The center and circumference of silence: Yoga, poststructuralism, and the rhetoric of paradox, 3-18 George Kalamaras Imagining Ayodhya: Utopia and its shadows in a Hindu landscape, 19-54 Philip Lutgendorf The power of space in a traditional Hindu city, 55-71 Robert I. Levy Mountains of wisdom: On the interface between Siddha and Vidyadhara cults and the Siddha orders in medieval India, 73-95 David Gordon White Temple rites and temple servants: Religion's role in the survival of Kerala's Kutiyattam drama tradition, 97-115 Bruce M. Sullivan Bengali religious nationalism and communalism, 117-139 Peter Heehs Ajatasattu and the future of psychoanalytic anthropology Part I: The promise of a culture, 141-164 Dan W. Forsyth Advaita Vedanta and typologies of multiplicity and unity: An interpretation of nondual knowledge, 165-188 Joseph Milne Book reviews and notices, 189-216 ========================================================================== cross-posted: Indology, Tantral-L, RS-UK, Risa, HAsia. 0497. From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Tue Apr 1 02:43:18 1997 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 10:43:18 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) query: Gita tapes Message-ID: <161227029248.23782.9025002789530796276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a set of tapes available from E. Bharatha Pisharody, the originator of the Kamadenu course for learning Sanskrit. These tapes have been prepared without any background music. The address is : E. Bharatha Pisharody KAMADENU P.O Eranellur Trissur Kerala India. Regards...Das > >> >Would you know where I could find out about audio tape >> >recordings of the Bhagavad Gita? My sister (who studies Sanskrit) is >> >looking for something with a real Indian pandit reading (or chanting) >> >in Sanskrit, with no musical background. >> >> I don't have any answers to David's query, I'm afraid, but would appreciate From rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu Tue Apr 1 16:27:54 1997 From: rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 11:27:54 -0500 Subject: ye me bhakta-janah partha ... Message-ID: <161227029264.23782.7419831566592115884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> wgw at dnai.com (WILLIAM G WALL) wrote: >Greetings: >I received this message from a colleague. I can't answer it. Can anyone else? >>I'm looking for the reference of the above verse-spoken by Lord Krsna. In Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 11.28, this verse is quoted by Krsnadasa Kaviraja, and it is cited as from from "Adi Purana". > >>Now, I never heard of Adi Purana. Can it be "Adi-parva" (of Mahabharata) There is indeed an Adi purANa, which is however not a mahA purANa. There is a brief description of this in "The Puranas" by Ludo Rocher, History of Indian Literature. >>If so (and also if not), can anyone give me the exact number of the >>respective chapter and verse? I don't know if this has ever been published at all. The info would surely be available in the same book by Ludo Rocher. If you want me to look up whether it has been published, please send me mail. Ramakrishnan. -- http://yake.ecn.purdue.edu/~rbalasub/ From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Tue Apr 1 10:33:47 1997 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 12:33:47 +0200 Subject: Conference Announcement Message-ID: <161227029254.23782.4318208282666893012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The organizers of the 15th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies would like to inform you about one minor change in the list of panels of the conference: there is a new panel (no. 32) named Missionary Challenges in India since 1700: Histories of Cultural Cross-Communication, Confrontation, and Consequence. which will be convened by Prof. R.E. Frykenberg, University of Wisconsin - Madison. Anyone of those who have already submitted their registration forms can - of-course - change their panel preferences and/or paper preferences with regard to this new item in the panel list. The updated list of panels is attached to the Registration Form which you find below. Don't forget that you can register on our Web page (http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html) or you can send the attached Registration form by e-mail. The deadline is 30 April 1997! Yours Sincerely Jan Dvorak Organizing Committee E-mail: southasia at cuni.cz WWW: http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 15th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic 8-12 September 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------- | To be returned before 30 April 1997 to: | | Institute of Indian Studies | Charles University | Celetn? 20 | 116 42 Praha 1 | Czech Republic ----------------------------------------------- R e g i s t r a t i o n F o r m ================================= Surname________________________________________________________ First name(s)____________________________________Mr / Ms_______ University affiliation_________________________________________ Mailing address________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ Phone__________________________________________________________ Fax____________________________________________________________ E-mail_________________________________________________________ Working title of my paper______________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ Number of panel I wish to present my paper in__________________ Panels I would like to attend__________________________________ I prefer to obtain further information by e-mail [ ] yes [ ] no Accommodation preferences: Student hostel (double rooms only, two bedrooms sharing one bathroom) [ ] yes [ ] no Hotel: room [ ] single [ ] double category/rate [ ] tourist*** USD 55-90 [ ] first class**** USD 80-200 Appendix: List of panels 1. The First Century of British Rule in South Asia (Kolff) 2. Regional Development at the End of Empire (Collins) 3. Integration of Princely States/Princes in Post-Colonial India (Fasana) 4. Regional Cooperation in South Asia/ Politic and Economic (Kov??, Zingel) 5. Domestic Problems and Foreign Policy in South Asia (Weidemann) 6. Colonialism, German Indology and the Orientalist Predicament (Kulke) 7. Europe and South Asia in the 20th Century (Oesterheld) 8. Rural Development in South Asia (Lerche/Jeffrey, R.) 9. Environment and Water Resources in South Asia (Swain) 10. Democracy in South Asia / Multi-Party System (Komarov) 11. Decision Making at the Local Level (M?ller-B?ker) 12. Disaggregating the State in South Asia (Blomkvist) 13. Alternative Futures: The Panjab (Samad) 14. Tribal Structures and Tribal Movements (Gautam) 15. Untouchability: Past and Present (Aktor) 16. Ethnicity and the Diaspora (Raj) 17. Cultural Relativism and Human Rights in Islam (Noorani) 18. Human Rights (Madsen) 19. The Emergence of Individualism in South Asia (Tambs-Lyche) 20. Gender Issues and Social Change (Jeffrey, P., Mursheed) 21. Sufi Studies and Early Islam (De Bruyn) 22. Religious Reform Movements in South Asia (Copley/R?stau) 23. Performing Arts (Karpen) 24. Hindu Art and Buddhist Art: Mutual Dependence and Common Legacy (Gail) 25. Linguistics of South Asia (Nespital) 26. Romani linguistics and culture in relation to the country of its origin (Hubschmannova) 27. Ancient Indian Texts and Text Interpretation (Vacek, Elisarenkova) 28. The Role of the Mahabharata in South Asia (Sand) 29. Bengali and Bangladeshi Literature (Radice) 30. Modern Tamil Literature: Written and Oral (Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi) 31. Literature (to be specified) (Matringe) 32. Missionary Challenges in India since 1700 (Frykenberg) From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Tue Apr 1 11:06:17 1997 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 13:06:17 +0200 Subject: Vikram Seth again Message-ID: <161227029255.23782.3055150076443564124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe the last mail concerning the Czech translation of Vikram Seth's A Suitable Boy: 1) Can anyone of you provide us a detailed information about the festival Bhai-Duj? (viz. how, when, why and by whom it is celebrated). 2) What sort of dessert is rasmalai (ras is clear, malai is clear, but we do not understand what comes up when it is mixed)? The quotation: 'Dinner was simple but good: curds, vegetables, rice - and rasmalai for dessert.' (p. 715 of Phoenix edition, Chapter 11.11, c. 15th paragraph) 3) What sort of tree is Sita Ashok (the latin name is needed, as well as some basic description). Thank to all who have responded to the last series of questions (the Shakespearean quotations and allusions). (By the way, the first volume of the translation, i.e. Parts 1-10, is already in print and should appear on 1 July 1997, the second (and last) volume, which is now nearly finished should appear on 1 October 1997.) Thank you, Jan Dvorak From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Tue Apr 1 14:10:12 1997 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 14:10:12 +0000 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029257.23782.6246654716074746272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, the discussion about Danielou started so quickly that nobody has remembered the original question. Leaving Danielou I try to say as much as I can with very few sources at hand. In the Greek mimus contained in Pap. Ox. 413 part of the plot is located in India and it contains some sentences given as "Indian language". It was an idea of E. Hultzsch that these could be explained through Kannada, which he, having been long time in South India working as an epigraphist, probably knew rather well. His attempt was published twice, first in German in the journal Hermes 39, 1904, 307-311, and in English translation in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 1904, 399-405. The problem is that there is a gap of many centuries between earliest documents in Kannada and the Greek papyrus and that his comparisons are not very convincing. It might be that the Indian of the mimus was just a nonsense -- for the audience in Hellenistic Egypt this was as good as real Indian language. From this viewpoint he was well criticized by Otto Stein in Indologica Pragensia 1929, now reprinted in Stein's Kleine Schriften (1985). There is another attempt the Kannada explanation by an Indian scholar published in the QJMS in the 1920s, I think, but I do not have the reference here. The text of the Papyrus is most easily found in the Loeb Classical Library Greek Papyri volumes, where it is also translated into English. Klaus Karttunen From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Apr 2 01:02:23 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 17:02:23 -0800 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029271.23782.4591236911433528107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, J.Napier wrote: > I am quite interested in the last point. One assumption often made is that > because the accompanying instrument ideally today blends with the voice, > that the aim of accompaniment has always been to do so. In recent times (100-150 years), in Carnatic music, the aim of accompaniment has typically been to follow the vocalist like a shadow. The Tamil term used is "nezhal pOla". Many Carnatic musicians use the word "follow" synonymously with "accompany". > > The North Indian rudra vina or bin previously accompanied dhrupad. Though > built to have a very long decay to its sound, it still remains a plucked > instrument. We must also remember that Zia Mohiuddin Dagar seems to have > introduced the idea of playing without plectra (the absence of which > will produce less attack) only in the second half of this century. Add to > this the low volume of the rudra vina relative to the voice, which suggest > that if the instrument was to make any contribution to he total sound of > the performance, it must have been played quite assertively ie plucked very > hard. > North Indian khayaal singers seem to prefer saarangii or harmonium accompaniment. And khayaal has been steadily replacing dhrupad as the most widespread genre since the times of Tansen. > In addition, several North Indian musicians have suggested that the use of > an instrument (even the sarod) with a strong, crisp attack for accompanying > certain types of performance, such as the nom-tom of dhrupad, and tarana. This suggestion makes a lot of sense. Certainly, a plucked stringed instrument can accompany non-tom in dhrupad, or the taanam in Carnatic music extremely well. Actually, the use of the Veena to accompany vocal Carnatic music is not entirely unknown. There is a recording of Smt. M. S. Subbalakshmi accompanied by Sri K. S. Narayanaswamy on the Veena. The famous Veena Dhanammal used to sing and play the Veena at the same time. However, one perceived problem in Veena accompaniment to vocal music in modern times is one of pitch. The Veena used to be tuned to G or G# at the turn of the century, but the preferred pitch has come down to D# or E, which is too low for female voices and probably too high for most male voices. Also, modern audiences have gotten used to violin accompaniment, and there seems to be a great inertia against switching to anything else. Another experiment that has been tried recently is one by Dr. Balamuralikrishna, who has sung concerts with flute accompaniment. > > In searching for a blend with the voice, and a perfect legato (sorry to use > the Italian/European word, please provide Indian equivalent!), two other > factors may have been underplayed in searching for the ideals of > accompaniment: the idea of timbral contrast, and the idea of comparable > attack. > > Is it possible that the aims of accompaniment have changes over centuries, > and such changes might be causally linked to choice of accompanying > instrument. > Yes, these things have changed over time. In fact, the history of Carnatic music in the 19th and 20th centuries is one of rather rapid change in many things. One factor that has changed the aims and preferences of accompaniments in recent times is the shift in venue from an intimate private room to a public auditorium. S. Vidyasankar From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Apr 1 22:08:29 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 17:08:29 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029268.23782.17369241273117302463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the Danielou produced this book, there has been considerable progress in Tamil musicology. However, due to the separation of language studies and music/musicological studies in the present day Tamilnadu, one side does not know what is happening on the other side. Dr. S. Ramanathan's work in his dissertation on music of cilappatikaram at Wesleyan was further advanced by Dr. V. P. K. Sundaram currently at Bharatidasan University in Tiruchirappalli. Ramanathan's seminal work goes back to the 50s and was published, presented in Tamil as "cilappatikArattu icai nuNukkam"... his work builds on the research of Abraham Pandithar and Vipulananda's Yazh nUl. The above dissertation (1979) seems like a recast of that material into English. The 82-year old Dr. Sundaram has cleared many obscurities and errors with regard to ancient Tamil musicology and is in the process of completing his third volume of the Musical Encyclopedia of Tamil, published by the university. I just went thru the 2nd vol (k thru ~n) of this alphabetically ordered compendium ("Tami_licaikkalaikkaLa~niyam") ; it is very fascinating and richly detailed, including as it does musical details from the Cankam texts, from the CilappatikAram, and from the works and times of the Caiva saints. It has a few musically irrelevant entries too ! In any case the time is ripe, and has been so for a while, for scholars of Indian music to take a good, hard look at the wealth of _musicological_ detail described in Tamil literature and possibly in other regional literatures too, in addition to that described in the Sanskrit treatises... and discuss their relevance, morphing, etc in detail... rather than leaving alone the former with just a polite mention. He has also explained the two different processes of paNNup peyarttal (in Tamil) or grahabeda (in Sanskrit) and clearly established the basic musical scale of ancient Tamils as 'cempAlaip paN' or present rAga harikAmbodi. The exact modern equivalents of these terms were clear from earlier work... VipulAnanda, Ramanathan, etc agreed on cempAlaippAN as HarikAmbodi... Ramanathan further established the crucial fact that the pentatonic mullaippaN was the same as Mohanam. V.P.K.Sundaram's efforts, as you note, seem to be directed at resolving the disparities between the results of Abraham Pandithar, VipulAnanda, and S.Ramanathan... he criticizes S.Ramanathan's reverse cyclical method of deriving the pAlais (modes) starting off with cempAlai, arriving first at paDumalaipAlai (Kalyani) and so on, and prefers VipulAnanda's regular cyclical method (i.e. moving the tonic forward from kural (S) to tuttam (R)) on the basis of further literary evidence. VPKS also explicitly identifies the 5th tone of mullaippaN as G based on the CilappatikAram evidence itself... S.Ramanathan had identified the kural-tuttam-iLi-viLari of mullaippaN with the S-R-P-D of Mohanam and had extrapolated the G based on later evidence from Sekkizhar's writings. I may be wrong on this, but my cursory impression is that the new translation of cilappatikAram by Parthasarathy does not pay much attention to the music and dance aspect of cilappatikAram. Yes. I don't remember reading very much of musicological detail in Danielou's translation either... did he publish anything else based on his CilappatikAram research ? -Srini. ps: By two different processes of paNNup peyarttal, are you referring to the modal change of tonic, and the change of intervals with a fixed tonic ? From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Apr 2 01:19:14 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 17:19:14 -0800 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029272.23782.4158429238772574881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: [...] > > In any case the time is ripe, and has been so for a while, for > scholars of Indian music to take a good, hard look at the wealth > of _musicological_ detail described in Tamil literature and possibly > in other regional literatures too, in addition to that described in > the Sanskrit treatises... and discuss their relevance, morphing, > etc in detail... rather than leaving alone the former with just a > polite mention. A hearty yes to that. I find it fascinating that where the Sanskrit texts seem to be silent about the relationship of the gAndhAra to shaDja, the Tamil texts explicitly talk of the relationship of kaikkiLi and kuRal in terms of friendship (naTpu) and enmity (pakai). I have always wondered if the so-called gAndhAra grAma that is "sung only in heavenly realms" has anything to do with this. And Bharata's demonstration notwithstanding, I have found it impossible to make sense of the 22 Sruti theory without assuming something about the gAndhAra. Ramanathan's analysis of the Tamil references to 22 maattirais in an octave seemed to be much more straightforward. [..] > > ps: By two different processes of paNNup peyarttal, are you referring > to the modal change of tonic, and the change of intervals with a fixed > tonic ? I remember S. Ramanathan using the term kuRal tiripu for the modal shift of tonic, and paNNuppeyarttal for the change of intervals around a fixed tonic. S. Vidyasankar From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue Apr 1 20:41:24 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 19:41:24 -0100 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029265.23782.15469767622788671630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 29 Mar 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) jbb> I've read in a book by A. Danielou that a Greek papyrus jbb> from the 2nd c. AD was found at Oxyr. which contained jbb> a spoof on Euripides's "Iphigeneia [hi] en Taurois" in jbb> which are found some Kannada words. Does anyone know jbb> anything about this? If you could give me the "Kannada words", I could tell you whether they are Kannada words. I haven't seen them myself; but in Karnataka I have heard the rumour that those famous words (?) in that famous Greek play (? it must be that same play to which you referred) are not Kannada but Tulu. This could suggest that the words in the Greek text are distorted in Greek script in such a way that it is difficult to make out whether they are Kannada or Tulu; or perhaps they belong to an older stage of a Dravidian language which cannot easily be identified as either. But if you or somebody else can post them, we may reach some kind of verdict. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 2 06:32:05 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 22:32:05 -0800 Subject: SKT for LaTeX2e -- Was Re: home page Message-ID: <161227029275.23782.4717459971748247861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > Of late I have been unable to access the indology web page. Netscape > comes up with the error that the server is not responding. Is this > a site specific problem or a general one? I am trying desperately > to get hold of the LaTeX Skt font. You can get Charles Wikner's Sanskrit for LaTeX2e version 2.0 from the CTAN archives in the /tex-archive/language/sanskrit directory. A CTAN site that I know off-hand is: ftp.tex.ac.uk. Also, I just acquired a GNU C Compiler for IBM/PCs and will have a DOS executable version of the preprocessor ready in a few days. I'll put the executable in the .../sanskrit directory under an appropriate directory. If any one has already done this, then please let me know! Regards, Anshuman Pandey University of Washington apandey at u.washington.edu From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 2 04:48:34 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 23:48:34 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029274.23782.1237607862815998383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, Ramanathan published "cilappatikArattu icai nuNukkam" in 1956. According to his introduction in the book "cilappatikArattu icait tamiz", he had presented a research paper on the seven major musical scales at the First International Tamil conference in Kualalumpur. He wrote his dissertation at Wesleyan in 1970. He says that "cilappatikArattu icait tamiz" (published in 1981) was based on all his research until that time. So my guess is that he must have added some material between 1956 and 1970. The two processes of 'paNNup peyarttal' are 'valamurait tiripu' and 'iTamurait tiripu'. In the first one, in an ascending fashion 'ri' of Harikambodi (cempAlai) is kept as 'sa' to get Natabhairavi (paTumalaip pAlai) and then ga of Harikambodi is kept as 'sa' to get Thodi with two 'ma's, and so on. In the latter, in a descending manner, the 'sa' of Sankarabharanam (arum pAlai) becomes 'ni' of Kharaharapriya (kOTip pAlai), then the 'sa' of Sankarabharanam (arum pAlai) becomes 'da' of normal Thodi, and so on. VPKS also clarified the terminology with respect to mullaip paN. mullai yAz or mullaipperumpaN or cempAlaip paN is raga Harikambodi. paN mullaittImpANi or paN cAtAri is raga Mohanam which is derived from Harikambodi by eliminating 'ma' and 'ni' notes. Regards. S. Palaniappan From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Wed Apr 2 16:32:45 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 08:32:45 -0800 Subject: Other festivals, too. Message-ID: <161227029289.23782.954875903384018418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The recent question about the date Mahashivaratri is now celebrated reminds me that I have been meaning to ask if someone could give a difinitive date for when the new year begins in Tamilnad. Is it, as one of my friends claims, ALWAYS on April 14th? Ie. a fixed calendrical date? And THAT date in particular? Is there not (as there is in Karnataka) several different New Year dates, depending on the tradition ones community follows? Peter Claus From davidi at wizard.net Wed Apr 2 13:55:59 1997 From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 08:55:59 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029282.23782.18084284410836556352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan -- I'm interested by your remark -- > . . . Since the time [Danielou] produced this book [The > Ankle Bracelet in translation], there has been considerable > progress in Tamil musicology. However, due to the separation of > language studies and music/musicological studies in the present day > Tamilnadu, one side does not know what is happening on the other > side. Dr. S. Ramanathan's work in his dissertation on music of > cilappatikaram at Wesleyan was further advanced by Dr. V. P. K. > Sundaram currently at Bharatidasan University in Tiruchirappalli. While not acquainted with this field & its literature, must say I'm a bit curious abt. the work you mention from the late singer/scholar S. Ramanathan. Do you happen to know if if Ramanathan's study (or studies) found their way into print? So happens, his daughter and son-in-law (Geetha & Frank Bennett) are long-time acquaintances. Also a footnote: Geetha Ramanathan Bennett has become somewhat noted as a contemporary vina exponent; -- when I saw them in LA last spring, there was (for instance) mention of a concert-tour taking her to Australia, and a recording gig in Germany. > The 82-year old Dr. Sundaram has cleared many obscurities and errors > with regard to ancient Tamil musicology . . . . . and clearly > established the basic musical scale of ancient Tamils as 'cempAlaip > paN' or present rAga harikAmbodi. Might you (off hand) be able to identify the Hindustani-system equivalent raga (supposing that there must be one, at least in terms of the scale)? Again, this is from simple curiousity ... thanks, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From dicko at netletter.com Wed Apr 2 14:27:53 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 09:27:53 -0500 Subject: Mahashivaratri Message-ID: <161227029285.23782.243063999443798505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm wondering if any of you might be able to clarify a fairly recent historical change that I've had difficulty getting detailed information on. of the Magha and Phalguna Mahashivaratri celebrations has changed in this century. I get the impression that the Magha date was more widely celebrated with public festivals in the past, but that the Phalguna occurence has now become the more commonly celebrated and nationally recognized. What I'm trying to find out is: * Is my observation actually true in most regions, or just an artifact of the second-hand sources available to me? Which specific regions or towns have actually changed the dominant date of their celebration or festival, if any? * Can anyone refer me to sources that actually discuss this and other "standardization" of festivals and festival dates in this century? I hope a 20th century question isn't seen as "off topic"--my interest is in tracing the details of the history of Shiavite festivals from antiquity into the future, which seems to be within the scope of this list's interests. --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From pfilliozat at magic.fr Wed Apr 2 09:48:41 1997 From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 09:48:41 +0000 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029278.23782.2279886588473072806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Replies to msg 29 Mar 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) > >With reference to Robert Zydenbos query on kannada words in a greek play This interesting curiosity has inspired a modern play in Kanna.da by my brother Wasant Kawali, prducer of drama at All-India radio. The play is entitled "bere ko?ca madhu pAtrakke hAki". It was published on or before 1975 in Bangalore. It was enacted around the same date in Bangalore, Hassan etc. In the play the Greek words are interpreted as hale kanna.da. It is the story of Greek sailors reaching the port of Malpe. The action takes place there. The theme is the love of a Greek girl with a local chieftain, Malpe NAyaka. Attempts to interpret the words of the greek play in Tulu have been done several times. See Saletore, History of Tuluva. Kanna.da premiga?ligella namaskAra, Vasundhara Filliozat Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Apr 1 21:50:08 1997 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 09:50:08 +1200 Subject: home page Message-ID: <161227029267.23782.9701284667141841222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of late I have been unable to access the indology web page. Netscape comes up with the error that the server is not responding. Is this a site specific problem or a general one? I am trying desperately to get hold of the LaTeX Skt font. - & From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Wed Apr 2 00:46:26 1997 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 10:46:26 +1000 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029269.23782.14575375164423795943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:22:52 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: >Of course, the answer to the second question is yes, but there was a niche >into which the violin fit admirably - namely, that of accompaniment to >vocal music. Although Carnatic instrumental music revolves around vocal >music conceptually, none of the south Indian instruments (barring >percussion ones) is really suited for an accompanying role. The wind >instruments like the flute and the nadaswaram are too loud and can be >fickle in their pitches, the Veena is not loud enough, and in the hands of >an average player, can be quite staccato. I am quite interested in the last point. One assumption often made is that because the accompanying instrument ideally today blends with the voice, that the aim of accompaniment has always been to do so. The North Indian rudra vina or bin previously accompanied dhrupad. Though built to have a very long decay to its sound, it still remains a plucked instrument. We must also remember that Zia Mohiuddin Dagar seems to have introduced the idea of playing without plectra (the absence of which will produce less attack) only in the second half of this century. Add to this the low volume of the rudra vina relative to the voice, which suggest that if the instrument was to make any contribution to he total sound of the performance, it must have been played quite assertively ie plucked very hard. In addition, several North Indian musicians have suggested that the use of an instrument (even the sarod) with a strong, crisp attack for accompanying certain types of performance, such as the nom-tom of dhrupad, and tarana. In searching for a blend with the voice, and a perfect legato (sorry to use the Italian/European word, please provide Indian equivalent!), two other factors may have been underplayed in searching for the ideals of accompaniment: the idea of timbral contrast, and the idea of comparable attack. Is it possible that the aims of accompaniment have changes over centuries, and such changes might be causally linked to choice of accompanying instrument. john napier university of New South Wales Sydney Australia From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Apr 2 09:00:47 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 11:00:47 +0200 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029277.23782.7776277207198499824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology netters, the following poem is based on an Indian text. On behalf of someone else, I have a couple of questions. 1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? 2) Where was J. G. Saxe's poem published? (Bibliographic data, please!) The poem goes like this: ******************* _The Blind Men and the Elephant_ by- John Godfrey Saxe (Boston 1869) It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind. The First approached the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a wall!" The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, "Ho! what have we here So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a spear!" The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a snake!" The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee. "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he; " 'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!" The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said:"E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a fan!" The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Than, seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a rope!" And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong! Moral: So oft in theologic wars, The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen! ************************************ Thanks everybody who is helpful! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch Wed Apr 2 09:04:53 1997 From: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch (Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 11:04:53 +0200 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029281.23782.2518015334856980712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Indology netters, > >the following poem is based on an Indian text. On behalf of someone else, I >have a couple of questions. > >1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? > The story appears in some Theravada Buddhist texts: v.g. Dirgha-agama, Lokaprajnaptisutra ( ed. of Taisho Issaikyo, No.1, pp.128-129). All the best. Anand NAYAK Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Apr 2 16:47:02 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 11:47:02 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029291.23782.1291672330318045007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > . . . Since the time [Danielou] produced this book [The > Ankle Bracelet in translation], there has been considerable > progress in Tamil musicology. However, due to the separation of > language studies and music/musicological studies in the present day > Tamilnadu, one side does not know what is happening on the other > side. Dr. S. Ramanathan's work in his dissertation on music of > cilappatikaram at Wesleyan was further advanced by Dr. V. P. K. > Sundaram currently at Bharatidasan University in Tiruchirappalli. While not acquainted with this field & its literature, must say I'm a bit curious abt. the work you mention from the late singer/scholar S. Ramanathan. Do you happen to know if if Ramanathan's study (or studies) found their way into print? This is the only one in English I have seen - ___________ Author: Ramanathan, S., 1917- Title: Music in Cilappatikaaram : / S. Ramanathan. Published: Madurai, Tamilnadu, S. India : Madurai-Kamaraj University, 1979. Description: xix, 196 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. SUBJECT HEADINGS (Library of Congress; use s=): Ilankovatikal. Cilappatikaram Music--India--History and criticism. Notes: In English or Tamil (roman). Originally presented as thesis (Ph. D.)--Wesleyan University. Bibliography: p. 192-195. ___________________ > The 82-year old Dr. Sundaram has cleared many obscurities and errors > with regard to ancient Tamil musicology . . . . . and clearly > established the basic musical scale of ancient Tamils as 'cempAlaip > paN' or present rAga harikAmbodi. Might you (off hand) be able to identify the Hindustani-system equivalent raga (supposing that there must be one, at least in terms of the scale)? Again, this is from simple curiousity ... KamAj thAT. -Srini. From davidi at wizard.net Wed Apr 2 16:56:33 1997 From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 11:56:33 -0500 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029292.23782.3572187924389188329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the question -- Lars Martin Fosse > >1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the > >elephant? Anand Nayak replies: > The story appears in some Theravada Buddhist texts: v.g. > Dirgha-agama, Lokaprajnaptisutra ( ed. of Taisho Issaikyo, No.1, > pp.128-129). and so far as I know, Gautama Buddha is the first identified source for that famous allegorical tale. However, it may well be that John Godfrey Saxe's 19th century poem was inspired by some other version down the long story-stream; off hand, the most likely alternative candidate is probably the retelling of the tale by the great Sufi teacher, Jelaluddin Rumi, in his oceanic book of stories *Mathnawi*. (I don't know exactly where, in this classical Persian work, the tale appears.) I think one would not be incorrect in saying that the Pali texts of the Buddha's teaching, on the one hand, and Mathnawi of Rumi, on the other, represent the two great classical loci for this tale of the elephant & the blind men. Ralph Waldo Emerson, for one, was wrote about the work of some Persians (Hafez in particular) -- I don't recall if he made specific mention of Rumi, but he did seem conversant in writings of several Persians; similarly, both he and Henry David Thorou were students of Buddhism (etc.) -- so it seems (in short) not implausible that a Bostonian of that era could have acquainted this tale via either route . . . d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi at wizard.net (home) | disrael at skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Apr 2 18:13:36 1997 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 12:13:36 -0600 Subject: Tamil musicology Message-ID: <161227029295.23782.10892484604101952929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With reference to this thread, would it be possible to outline the arguments used to arrive at the new identification of paN intaLam, puRaniirmai and cAtAri in particular? Specific issues related to this are: (1) is there a paN equivalent to mAyamALava-gauLa at all? (2) is mOhanam the paN which comes about in the well-known episode from TiruviLaiyATaRpurANam? By the way, to answer N. Ganesan's query, the varieties of yAzh have been described in yAzh nUl (which was referred to already by S. Pichumani) and which contains several pictures. It does look like a small harp (again, see this book for details). It appears to have been used as an accompaniment and is attested in several places (I can't resist quoting KuRaL 66: kuzhal-ini ti-yAzh-ini t-enpa-tam makkaL mazhalai-c-col kElA tavar They say that the kuzhal is sweet, that the yAzh is sweet, who have not heard the faltering words of their (own) children) It seems to have been used concurrently with the `viiNai' (presumably an *earlier form* of the modern viiNai) and its disappearance has been attributed to changes in ornamentation and other reasons. S. Kichenassamy kichenas at math.umn.edu From Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 13:22:53 1997 From: Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 13:22:53 +0000 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029287.23782.12001544425554776488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In article: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch writes: > > >Dear Indology netters, > > > >the following poem is based on an Indian text. On behalf of someone else, I > >have a couple of questions. > > > >1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? > > > > The story appears in some Theravada Buddhist texts: v.g. Dirgha-agama, > Lokaprajnaptisutra ( ed. of Taisho Issaikyo, No.1, pp.128-129). It is in the Theravada Canon at Udaana 67 It is also in Shankara's Commentary on the Chandogya Upanishad at 5.18.2, and in Naiskarmyasiddhi at 2.70. Ramakrishna quotes it on page 125 of the Gospel of Ramakrishna, and the Persian Sufi Rumi quotes it at Mathnawi 3.1259. Take your pick! ATB John -- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Home Page http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Apr 2 21:45:19 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 13:45:19 -0800 Subject: Other festivals, too. Message-ID: <161227029304.23782.7054251426880702994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Peter J. Claus wrote: > > The recent question about the date Mahashivaratri is now celebrated > reminds me that I have been meaning to ask if someone could give a > difinitive date for when the new year begins in Tamilnad. Is it, as one of > my friends claims, ALWAYS on April 14th? Ie. a fixed calendrical date? > And THAT date in particular? Is there not (as there is in Karnataka) > several different New Year dates, depending on the tradition ones > community follows? There are two calenders usually followed in Tamil Nadu. The Tamil New Year is on the 13th or 14th of April, not always on the 14th. Tamil and Malayalam speakers celebrate this New Year day as 'vishu'. This date is solar, like Makara Sankranti (same day as the Tamil Pongal festival), and is therefore more or less fixed. The lunar calender that is followed elsewhere in India is also used in Tamil Nadu, but only for religious purposes. Thus, birth and death anniversaries are reckoned according to lunar calculation, with the lunar new year beginning on the day of ugAdi (Kannada, Telugu)/guDi paDvA (Marathi). Adding to the confusion, Tamilians begin the month of cittirai on the Tamil New year day (mid-April), which often runs concurrently with the lunar month of viSAkhA. S. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 13:23:58 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 14:23:58 +0100 Subject: home page Message-ID: <161227029298.23782.7191719536569838090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > Of late I have been unable to access the indology web page. Netscape > comes up with the error that the server is not responding. Is this > a site specific problem or a general one? I am trying desperately > to get hold of the LaTeX Skt font. The University College, London, web server was inacessible for most of the Easter weekend, I'm afraid. It is back online now. The problem was a power failure on Saturday. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 13:29:17 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 14:29:17 +0100 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029296.23782.9202710608707330327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > Incidentally, is there a way to get (maybe in email :) > an honest assessment of A. Danielou as an Indologist? I recommend reading what he has written, and then thinking about it. It's the method I most often use, and it works surprisingly well. Sorry -- I'm being cheeky. :-) I guess you mean getting an assessment from *someone else*. In which case you compound the epistemological problem by adding the question of the informant's probity to that of the subject himself. In the end, there's really no way out of this one, which is why book reviews are so often so unsatisfactory. In a spirit of amusement, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Apr 2 19:57:27 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 14:57:27 -0500 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029299.23782.1095149762227710956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Napier writes: One assumption often made is that because the accompanying instrument ideally today blends with the voice, that the aim of accompaniment has always been to do so. A related assumption, which seems to have taken strong hold among Carnatic audiences, is that instrumental music should towline vocal music... there are a few reasons for this development, including the dominating presence of some remarkable instrumentalists in the latter half of this century like Mali (flute), Balachander(vINa), and Lalgudi Jayaraman (violin) whose style is avowedly vocal. Also, the instrumentalists' repertoire has come to include a large number of kritis of the great composers... so a bias towards vocalism seems natural. Some try to strike a via media by adapting or completely morphing a few vocal compositions for their instrumental use... and it all sounds like an uneasy compromise ! Yet, that everything was not vocal-like, even at the beginning of this century, is very clear from various anecdotal evidence _and_ recorded examples. Flute seems to have been played in a fairly staccato manner... in the post-Mali era, this style is parodied as a tap-tap-tap style which resorted mainly to viralaDi (fast fingering) and tongueing rather than aiming at fluidity. NAgasvaram had its own hoary tradition and its practitioners more or less stuck to their traditional repertoire of mallArI- rAga AlApana-rakti-pallavi, leaving aside the compositions of the great 18th-19th century composers. In fact, it is a few vocalists of this century like GNB, Semmangudi, etc who are credited with mimicking the nAgasvara style, in very broad terms. Veena too had an interesting history... many vaiNikas simultaneously sang, at least in stretches, and played the instrument. The great composer, Muttusvami Dikshitar (1775-1835), calls him a vaiNika-gAyaka. Closer to us, Karaikkudi Brothers and Veena Dhanammal did the same and there are followers of this practice to this day. However, Rangaramanuja Iyengar, a historian and practitioner of Carnatic music, makes a crucial observation that in the case of the legendary Dhanammal, the voice and the wire worked in perfect complement, rather than simply mimicking each other... he is the only one to have called this insistence on "vocal-like instrumental music" a fallacy, that ignores the unique history and development of each instrument vis-a-vis the voice. In searching for a blend with the voice, and a perfect legato (sorry to use the Italian/European word, please provide Indian equivalent!), two other factors may have been underplayed in searching for the ideals of accompaniment: the idea of timbral contrast, and the idea of comparable attack. Absolutely... this underplaying of the latter ideals while laying undue stress on "legato"... really, in most cases, legato as understood merely as an explicit aural continuity through ample volume ;-) ... seems to have been a major factor in violin becoming an indispensable accompaniment in Carnatic music. Of course, violin accompaniment has developed far beyond being just that ! I wonder if there is a direct equivalent of legato as a style... what is Indian music if it is not all legato ??? At the level of a pair of svaras, legato could very well be subsumed under the "lIna" gamaka, while "jAru", "mIND" etc refer to slides over larger intervals. -Srini. From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Apr 2 20:36:19 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 15:36:19 -0500 Subject: Danielou and Tamil Musicology Message-ID: <161227029301.23782.7762763017846348667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Do you happen to know if if Ramanathan's study (or >>studies) found their way into print? This is the only English publication I have seen - _________________ Author: Ramanathan, S., 1917- Title: Music in Cilappatikaaram : / S. Ramanathan. Published: Madurai, Tamilnadu, S. India : Madurai-Kamaraj University, 1979. Description: xix, 196 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. SUBJECT HEADINGS (Library of Congress; use s=): Ilankovatikal. Cilappatikaram Music--India--History and criticism. Notes: In English or Tamil (roman). Originally presented as thesis (Ph. D.)--Wesleyan University. Bibliography: p. 192-195. ________________ >>Might you (off hand) be able to identify the Hindustani-system >>equivalent raga (supposing that there must be one, at least in terms >>of the scale)? Again, this is from simple curiousity ... >>thanks, d.i. khamAj thAT. -Srini. From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Wed Apr 2 21:40:13 1997 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 15:40:13 -0600 Subject: home page Message-ID: <161227029302.23782.1174770822817879271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > Of late I have been unable to access the indology web page. Netscape > comes up with the error that the server is not responding. Is this > a site specific problem or a general one? I am trying desperately > to get hold of the LaTeX Skt font. In the meantime, you can get that font, I believe, from CTAN sites. In the US, try ftp.cdrom.com. From there you will have to find the appropriate subdirectory, probably /languages. There's also a site closer to you, in Japan, but I forget its address. Other CTAN sites are: ftp.dante.de ftp.tex.ac.uk Best, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 15:01:16 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 16:01:16 +0100 Subject: Kamasutra text Message-ID: <161227029294.23782.3428704616588133638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jean Fezas (CNRS) has generously donated the full e-text of Vatsyayana's Kamasutra to the INDOLOGY "Virtual Archive of e-Texts". The file is available now, as kamasutra.zip, via the INDOLOGY web site http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html or directly by ftp from ftp.ucl.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Wed Apr 2 22:08:43 1997 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 16:08:43 -0600 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029306.23782.1917089636179760400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Arash Zeini wrote: > > A version of the same story is also to be found in the Massnavis of > Dschalaladdin Rumi, the persian poet who lived in the 13. c. > But sorry, I don't know exactly where to find it. > That would be at M 3:1259-68. See page 3 of Annemarie Schimmel's _Mystical Dimensions of Islam_. Bob Hueckstedt PS: There's a Jain source, too, isn't there? Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Wed Apr 2 14:17:07 1997 From: a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 16:17:07 +0200 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029284.23782.8406635771578518291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Indology netters, > >the following poem is based on an Indian text. On behalf of someone else, I >have a couple of questions. > >1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? > >2) Where was J. G. Saxe's poem published? (Bibliographic data, please!) > >The poem goes like this: > > ******************* The story also appears in UdAna 6, 4 (p. 66-69) in the edition of THE PALI TEXT SOCIETY. A version of the same story is also to be found in the Massnavis of Dschalaladdin Rumi, the persian poet who lived in the 13. c. But sorry, I don't know exactly where to find it. Best wishes, Arash *************** Arash Zeini e-mail: a2795850 at smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de Tel./Fax: 0049-221-4303060 *************** From NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Wed Apr 2 22:44:37 1997 From: NACHAR at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 16:44:37 -0600 Subject: Other festivals, too. Message-ID: <161227029308.23782.17487125100792459243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The Tamil Calendar is sauramAna; so the New Year begins on the day of meSa sankrAnti, which is almost always on April 14. Hope this helps-Narahari From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Apr 3 00:49:51 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 16:49:51 -0800 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029311.23782.216092575911678458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU wrote: > against the sarangi (as distinct from a prejudice against sarangi players) > to the 'polluting' gut strings. Given that gut strings were standard for > the violin in the nineteenth century, did this cause a problem in South > India? Did Indian violinists quickly adopt metal wires for stings? Contemporary Indian violinists prefer strings from Europe or USA, so they don't seem to make any special effort to use metal strings exclusively. Quite a few vaiNikas, including my guru (whose brother, father, sisters and husband are all violinists), feel that no musical instrument can be quite as sacred as the vINA. The fact that it has wood construction and metal strings is a reason for this. But earlier texts quoted by C. S. Anantapadmanabhan (The veena: its technique, theory and practice, New Delhi: Gana Vidya Bharati, 1954) seem to indicate that gut strings were used on the vINA also. It must be remembered that the south Indian vINA owes much of its present form to Govinda Dikshitar (16th century CE). S. Vidyasankar ps. Re: use of wires: there just might be some vastuSAstra texts that describe wires/strings. An alternative would be to take a field trip to the places where musical instruments are made, and interview the older artisans about their methods and sources of strings before India's modern industrialization. Trichy, Mysore, Miraj and Calcutta should be very good places for this. From mgansten at sbbs.se Wed Apr 2 16:01:29 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 18:01:29 +0200 Subject: Upanishadic epistemology Message-ID: <161227029288.23782.1208480905866708664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend of mine (not yet Sanskrit-literate) is looking for good secondary literature on the subject of epistemology in the early Upanishads. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Apr 3 07:20:07 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 02:20:07 -0500 Subject: Tamil musicology Message-ID: <161227029312.23782.9121321580547266241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-02 13:29:20 EST, kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) writes: << 2) is mOhanam the paN which comes about in the well-known episode from TiruviLaiyATaRpurANam? By the way, to answer N. Ganesan's query, the varieties of yAzh have been described in yAzh nUl (which was referred to already by S. Pichumani) and which contains several pictures. It does look like a small harp (again, see this book for details). It appears to have been used as an accompaniment and is attested in several places (I can't resist quoting KuRaL 66: kuzhal-ini ti-yAzh-ini t-enpa-tam makkaL mazhalai-c-col kElA tavar They say that the kuzhal is sweet, that the yAzh is sweet, who have not heard the faltering words of their (own) children) It seems to have been used concurrently with the `viiNai' (presumably an *earlier form* of the modern viiNai) and its disappearance has been attributed to changes in ornamentation and other reasons. >> Yes, zivA in the episode of selling firewood in Madurai sang paN sAtAri or rAga Mohanam. As for yAz and vIna being played simultaneously, mAnNikka vAcakar in a verse in TiruvAcakam states: innicai vINaiyar yAzinar orupAl irukkoTu tOttiram iyampinar orupAl on one side there were players of melodious lute and vINa on one side they were chanting Rig Vedic verses and stotras Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Apr 3 07:20:11 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 02:20:11 -0500 Subject: Tamil musicology Message-ID: <161227029314.23782.11028013624079694888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-02 13:29:20 EST, you write: << With reference to this thread, would it be possible to outline the arguments used to arrive at the new identification of paN intaLam, puRaniirmai and cAtAri in particular? Specific issues related to this are: (1) is there a paN equivalent to mAyamALava-gauLa at all? >> The arguments are in VPKS's commentary on the musical/dance Tamil text "panca marapu", published in 1993 by the South India Saiva Siddhanta Works Publishing Society. intaLam - based on a verse in periyapurANam (taDuttATkoNDapurANam 75) The basic process is to start with sa first and then go up to the sixth note which is ma1, then on to ni1 and as you go round the 12-note circle (vaTTap pAlai) you will get sa, ma1, ni1, ga1, and da1. The verse also states that it is a 5-note paN or 'pANi' (remember mullaittIm pANi for Mohanam?). puRanIrmai - based on the terminology of nErpAlai being kharaharapriya and nErtiram, another name for puRanIrmai being a 5- note paN based on nErpAlai cAtAri- based on aTiyArkkunallAr's commentary identifying cAtAri with mullaittImpANi and a verse in a text "tiNaimAlai nURRaimpatu" I do not know the paN equivalent of mAyamALava-gauLa. Regards. S. Palaniappan From prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp Wed Apr 2 22:12:17 1997 From: prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp (prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 07:12:17 +0900 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029305.23782.15386216939998955737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:10 AM 97.4.2 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? Liu tu chi ching? [Ed.] Taisho Tripitaka 3.50c1-51b6. [Tr.] Stanislas Julien, Les avadanas: contes et apologues indiens, inconnus jusqu'a ce jour, suivis de fables, de poeies et de nouvelles chinoises, 3 tomes (Paris: Benjamin Duprat, 1859), I.47-50. Edouard Chavannes, Cinq cents contes et apologues extraits du Tripitaka chinois, 4 tomes (1910-35; rpt. (= Collection UNESCO d'oeuvres representatives serie chinoise) Paris: Adrien-Maisonneuve, 1962), I.336-339 (tr.), IV.16 (anal. somm.), IV.136 (n.) [No 86]. Arthapadasutra, Taisho 4.178a19-c14. Sutta-nipata IV. Atthaka-vagga 25 ?P aramatthajotika II, 2. Smith ed., 529-531?. Udana VI(Jaccandha-vagga).5. S teinthal ed. 68.3-69.12. Comm. Paramatthadipani, Woodward ed. 341.29-343.12. Dirgha-agama, T 1.128c11-129a24; T 1.289c17-290a9; T 1.335b6-336a8; T 1.390a25-c27. Mahayana-Mahaparinirvanasutra T 12.556a8-21; T 12.802a10-24. P'u sa chu tai ching T 12.1026b25-c9. (Kuang ming chi T 52.51c22-25). Mahayanasamgraha T 31.98c16-24; 31.115b17-26; 31.135a9-19; [Comm.] Vasubandhu T 31.165a21-b9; T 31.277a21-b6; T 31.329a2-16; Asvabhava T 31.388c9-25. Tibetan text: Sasaki ed. 20-21;Etienne Lamotte, La somme du grand vehicule d'Asanga (Mahayanasamgraha), 2 tomes (= Bibliotheque de Museon 8)(1938; rpt. (= Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain 8)(.Louvain-la-Neuve: Institut Orientaliste, 1973), I.11(tib.), II.38 (tr.). Reconst. Skt Nagao vol.I, 27-28 cum 15153 (tr.). Hisashi MATSUMURA prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu Apr 3 17:14:53 1997 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 09:14:53 -0800 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029328.23782.13151678649217276245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some further references and comments on the supposedly Indian language in Pap. Ox. 413: L. D. Barnett, "The Alleged Kanarese Speeches in P. Oxy. 413," Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 12 (1926): 13-15. (Criticism of Hultzsch's Kannada theory). P. Shivaprasad Rai, "Sariti: A 2000 year old bilingual Tulu-Greek play," International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 14 (1985): 320-30. (Unconvincing interpretation of the passages as Tulu.) I have discussed this matter briefly in "Epigraphic Remains of Indian Traders in Egypt," International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 22 (1994): 7-16 (esp. 9-10) (revised and expanded version of article of the same title in JAOS 111 [1991]: 731-6). I came to the conclusion that it is reasonably likely that the passages in question are a rough imitation of some Dravidian language, but it is unlikely that it can be identified more precisely than that. Richard Salomon On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Klaus Karttunen wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > the discussion about Danielou started so quickly that nobody has > remembered the original question. Leaving Danielou I try to say as much > as I can with very few sources at hand. > > In the Greek mimus contained in Pap. Ox. 413 part of the plot is located > in India and it contains some sentences given as "Indian language". It > was an idea of E. Hultzsch that these could be explained through > Kannada, which he, having been long time in South India working as an > epigraphist, probably knew rather well. His attempt was published twice, > first in German in the journal Hermes 39, 1904, 307-311, and in English > translation in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 1904, 399-405. > The problem is that there is a gap of many centuries between earliest > documents in Kannada and the Greek papyrus and that his comparisons are > not very convincing. It might be that the Indian of the mimus was just a > nonsense -- for the audience in Hellenistic Egypt this was as good as > real Indian language. From this viewpoint he was well criticized by Otto > Stein in Indologica Pragensia 1929, now reprinted in Stein's Kleine > Schriften (1985). There is another attempt the Kannada explanation by an > Indian scholar published in the QJMS in the 1920s, I think, but I do not > have the reference here. > > The text of the Papyrus is most easily found in the Loeb Classical > Library Greek Papyri volumes, where it is also translated into English. > > Klaus Karttunen > > > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Apr 3 18:16:06 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 10:16:06 -0800 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029331.23782.12932146805069120778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Mohkamsing wrote: > > It seems that John refers to two levels of prejudice: one is socio-musical > level, and the other religio-cultural. > If John's assumption is valid then the prejudice against drummers must be > worse, because they are more directly and more extensively exposed to the > 'polluting' effects of leather (read: death) [just like tanners, butchers, > coblers, etc.]. That the socio-cultural status of drummers is very low indeed, > needs no mention, but the question is whether the prejudice against them should > be ascribed to the close contact/association with leather, or to their > relatively low hierarchical status as accompanists [in opposition to high > status solists]. > James Kippen, who wrote on North Indian drumming not so long ago, dwells on the > stigma and musically low status of accompanists (including bowers and harmonium > players), but faills to address the issue from a religio-cultural point of > view. I suspect that this aspect of the prejudice is more important than socio- > musical one. These sentiments for/against drummers are quite varied across India. What is true for the tabalchi who accompanies a mujra performance is not true for a mridangist who accompanies a Carnatic musician. Besides, if you look at Indian musical practice in terms of its practitioners of a century or so ago, you will find it dominated by the so-called 'musical castes'. In S. India, it was the devadAsI community which was the real torch-bearer of music and dance before brahmins entered in large numbers. In Goa and nearby regions, it was the kalAvant community, and in Orissa, it was the gotipuas and the dAsIs. In the context of musical castes, the social is religious, the musical is cultural. It is hard to decouple a social-musical prejudice from a religious-cultural prejudice. The two factors feed on each other in a cycle, almost like the buddhist pratItya-samutpAda. In an ultra-traditional framework, the drum would be ranked lower than other instruments because it uses leather. That is why the drum is given only an accompanying role in Indian classical music. As the drum, so the drummer, who almost always used to come from a specific caste. So now the drummer has a lower status, being an accompanist (the social-musical prejudice) and because his instrument has leather (the religious-cultural prejudice), and because he is of a lower caste status. But then, he belongs to a lower caste because of his profession as a drummer and his contact with leather. So if you think about it, all these things are highly correlated to one another. And this does not even begin to address a possible north Indian prejudice against musicians and dancers in general, owing to Islamic frowning down upon these arts. In terms of modern reality, all this is extremely passe. Nowadays, it has become highly fashionable to be proficient in music and dance. There is a new set of hierarchies taking over, one that is no longer determined by the traditional considerations of pollution and ritual purity, at least in south Indian communities. Almost every brahmin family has its sons trained in playing some musical instrument, the mridangam being extremely popular. Every brahmin family has its daughters learning to sing or to play the violin/veena and/or dance (Bharatanatyam/Odissi) and giving public performances. And if you think that brahmins would never stoop so low as to learn from lower castes, you would be completely wrong. To learn to play the mridangam, south Indian brahmins became sishyas of piLLais. Trichy Sankaran, the Toronto-based brahmin mridangist, and his elder cousin Poovalur Venkatraman, learnt from Palani Subramaniam Pillai. Dance gurus continue to be Pillais, to whom brahmin parents send their daughters to learn Bharatnatyam. The so-called brahminical sentiment of keeping its 'bhAratIya nArI' daughters at home, and away from potentially polluting contact with lower castes has been completely forgotten. So has the brahmin prejudice against leather. A brahmin mridangist is not considered any lower than other brahmins. As an example, one contemporary brahmin mridangist, Mannargudi Iswaran, has impeccable credentials, being a lineal descendant of Appayya Dikshita. His daily physical contact with animal hide has not decreased his status. Of course, it is not as if one is always polluted by contact with animal skin. A small piece of deer skin is always tied into the yajnopavIta of the student. Deer skin and tiger skin are used in religious contexts all the time. In a non-musical, and non-religious context, the brahmin executive in a modern corporation decks himself in fine leather belts and shoes. Why, there are even brahmin owners of tanneries and brahmin exporters of Indian leather goods. And if the process of Sanskritization still works, what the brahmins do today will be done by all other groups eventually. Here, I am reminded of a field trip taken by some students from the USA, who wondered about the caste of the workers at an industrial shop-floor in Bombay. One accompanying academician told them that all the workers had to be Sudras. He probably did not know or did not want to acknowledge that brahmin, kshatriya and vaisya castes could all be found on the shop-floor in significant numbers. He would have been right if he held that one's profession determined one's caste. However, don't we all know that caste has always been determined by birth? The reality is that Indian caste society is going through a huge change, although it has not diasappeared completely. The new hierarchies are being drawn on the basis of what is prestigious in modern urban India, which increasingly means class and economic status, not caste. A career in Indian music is sure to give you a boost in economic status, provided of course that you are talented. (Good looks, good luck, public relations and personal charisma help too.) If anybody out there thinks that the traditional prejudices and prohibitions, whether explicitly mentioned in dharmaSAstra texts or not, govern contemporary social reality, then my only suggestion is to get out of the ivory tower and observe the real world. What was true even fifty years ago is no longer true. The text-book descriptions are increasingly becoming even more outdated. Take a look at the members of this list. A large number of the Indians here are brahmins who have broken yet another prohibition, and crossed the seas, to live in Europe and America. Less than eighty years ago, the mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam went to England, which made him so impure in the eyes of his mother and his community, that they insisted on purification rituals. Today, brahmin boys *and girls* routinely come abroad to attend graduate school, and their parents and their community encourages them to do so. They don't think of purification rituals. Nobody really cares for the old prohibitions any more. I hope this answers Francois Quiviger's observation about the contemporary tabla players, Kishan Maharaj and Swapan Chowdhari. S. Vidyasankar From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Thu Apr 3 08:16:55 1997 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 10:16:55 +0200 Subject: musical instruments in India : gut strings Message-ID: <161227029320.23782.429429743555412761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:58 03/04/1997 BST, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU wrote: > >> against the sarangi (as distinct from a prejudice against sarangi players) >> to the 'polluting' gut strings. Given that gut strings were standard for >> the violin in the nineteenth century, did this cause a problem in South >> India? Did Indian violinists quickly adopt metal wires for stings? > >Contemporary Indian violinists prefer strings from Europe or USA, so they >don't seem to make any special effort to use metal strings exclusively. > >Quite a few vaiNikas, including my guru (whose brother, father, sisters >and husband are all violinists), feel that no musical instrument can be >quite as sacred as the vINA. The fact that it has wood construction and >metal strings is a reason for this. But earlier texts quoted by C. S. >Anantapadmanabhan (The veena: its technique, theory and practice, New >Delhi: Gana Vidya Bharati, 1954) seem to indicate that gut strings were >used on the vINA also. It must be remembered that the south Indian vINA >owes much of its present form to Govinda Dikshitar (16th century CE). > >S. Vidyasankar > >ps. Re: use of wires: there just might be some vastuSAstra texts that >describe wires/strings. An alternative would be to take a field trip to >the places where musical instruments are made, and interview the older >artisans about their methods and sources of strings before India's modern >industrialization. Trichy, Mysore, Miraj and Calcutta should be very good >places for this. > A literary testimony about the strings of the [ancient?] vINA : According to KathAsaritsAgara 5.3.158-161 & 169-171, string made of cow's gut were used on the vINA : the sight of a caNDAla bearing a load of cow's flesh reminds BindumatI that, formerly a vidyAdharI, she was reborn in a fisherman's family (dAza-kula-) because she was cursed for having cut with her teeth a string made of dried cow's gut while installing it on her vINA : 158. ekadA harmya-pRSTha-stho dhRta-go-mAMsa-bhArakam. mArgAgataM sa caNDAlaM dRSTvA tAm abravIt priyAm.. 159. vandyAs tri-jagato 'py etA yAH kRzodari dhenavaH. tAsAM pizitam aznAti pazyAyaM pApa-kRt katham.. 160. tac chrutvA sApy avAdIt taM patiM bindumatI tadA. acintyam Arya-putraitat pApam atra kim ucyate.. 161. ahaM gavAM prabhAveNa svalpAd apy aparAdhataH. jAtA dAza-kule 'muSmin kA tv etasyAtra niSkRtiH.. 169. ahaM janmAntare 'bhUvaM kApi vidyAdharI purA. martya-loke ca zApena paribhraSTAsmi sAMpratam.. 170. vidyAdharatve ca yadA chittvA dantair ayojayam. vINAsu tantrIs teneha jAtAhaM dAza-vezmani.. 171. tad evaM vadane spRSTe zuSkeNa snAyunA gavAm. IdRzy adhogatiH kA tu vArtA tan-mAMsa-bhakSaNe.. J.F. I shall shortly make available an e-text of the books 5-7 of the KSS... From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Apr 3 08:17:25 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 10:17:25 +0200 Subject: Blind men and elephants Message-ID: <161227029315.23782.1615813920598161668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:10 2.04.97 BST, you wrote: >At 10:10 AM 97.4.2 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >> >>1) Which Indian text relates the story of the blind men and the elephant? To all of you have answered my question: Thank you very much for your helpfulness! The answers have been forwarded to the person who originally asked the question. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Thu Apr 3 00:31:27 1997 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 10:31:27 +1000 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029310.23782.12973122144082500113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:01:10 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: For example, saliva is polluting, which is why many Indians >prefer to wet the gum on an envelope with water, rather than using their >tongues. But this ritual impurity associated with saliva does not stop >Indians from playing the bamboo flute or the shehnai or the nadaswaram. >Saliva necessarily touches these instruments in the act of playing. And >the flute is Krishna's instrument, while most festivals are incomplete >without shehnais or nadaswarams. No justification is offered. The >nadaswaram is quite openly described in Tamil as "echchal (saliva) >vAdyam (instrument)", although it is also considered an auspicious >instrument. This raises an interesting point. Many attribute a prejudice in North India against the sarangi (as distinct from a prejudice against sarangi players) to the 'polluting' gut strings. Given that gut strings were standard for the violin in the nineteenth century, did this cause a problem in South India? Did Indian violinists quickly adopt metal wires for stings? This relates to an earlier unanswered post about the introduction of metal stings, and the production of wire in general in India. The Sangitaratnakara refers to wound strings of silk, and eleventh century sculptures sometimes clearly show that stirngs were made of a wound substance (silk or even grass, as suggested by earlier, non-musicological texts). john napier University of New South Wales Sydney Australia From Palaniappa at aol.com Thu Apr 3 16:03:55 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 11:03:55 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029327.23782.5189615232921232652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a personal communication to me Vidyasankar Sundaresan said, "In connection with the spider and the loom metaphors, you might be interested in the following, if you haven't already thought of it. The muNDaka upanishad compares how the world comes from brahman, by using the metaphor of the spider. But there is no word in the text connoting 'web' or 'weave'.. The only verbs used there (srjate ca grhNate ca) relate to sending forth and drawing back. In the brhadAraNyaka, gArgI asks yajnavalkya about the substratum on which the world is woven as it were? Here, there are true words relating to weave (otaS ca protaS ca). The metaphor here seems to be the loom designed by human beings, with threads used as warp and woof. I was also struck by the coincidence of your posting with some of my own thoughts recently. A few weeks ago, I was wondering how to make a Sanskrit term for 'world wide web'. I rejected "jAla" as having too many negative connotations. Other than Uta/ota (deriving from the root ve, to weave), which are pretty obscure words (I doubt if 'ota' is used anywhere else than in the brhadAraNyaka), I could not come up with any positive Sanskrit word for 'web'!" This communication led me to take a fresh look at the Sanskrit side. What I found there was very interesting. Let me at the outset concede I am not a Vedist. My observations are based on translations/statements by other scholars. My hypothesis is that Dravidian 'nUl' and Sanskrit 'sUtra' are not directly related but only through the Sanskrit word 'tantra'. 'nUl' and 'tantra' seem to be more directly related. In several Rig Vedic passages such as 1.142.2, "Spin out the ancient thread for him who sheds, with gifts, the Soma juice", 8.13.14, 10.53.6, 10.57.2, 10.71.9, spinning out seems to mean 'to praise', 'to sing the praise' or as noun, 'vedic mantra'. This will correspond to the semantics of 'nuval'. The association of female weavers in 2.3.6 and 10.71.9 suggest correspondences with classical Tamil texts. Thus, I think the semantics of nuval will help in interpreting the vedic 'tantu' or 'ta'ntra'/'tantra'. My guess is even though 'tantra' seems to have a meaning of 'utterance' far earlier than 'sUtra', it was the search for a 'positive' word for 'text' which resulted in the use of the synonymous 'sUtra', 'ta'ntra'/'tantra' probably having acquired negative connotations in the mind of the orthodox because of association with secret/magical utterances/texts/spells. 'sUtra' in the sense of text seems to first appear in the bRhadAraNyaka upaniSad. While Dravidian concept of spider was that the thread comes out of its mouth, the Sanskrit concept was that the thread comes out of the navel. See the word 'tantu-nAbha' in the upanishads. This suggests that the Sanskrit 'tantu' meaning 'utterance/text' is not that directly related to the meaning 'thread' as opposed to the Dravidian 'nUl' which is. I would welcome comments from the scholars in the list. Regards. S. Palaniappan From MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu Apr 3 10:25:02 1997 From: MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (Mohkamsing) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 11:25:02 +0100 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029317.23782.919718709842824796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to elaborate on John Napier's remark on the 'polluting' effect of gut strings, and draw the attention to the practice of drumming. [At the same time I would like to apologize for side-tracking John's main inquires about 'metal wires'.] (On 3-APR-1997 01:50) he wrote: "Many attribute a prejudice in North India against the sarangi (as distinct from a prejudice against sarangi players) to the 'polluting' gut strings..." It seems that John refers to two levels of prejudice: one is socio-musical level, and the other religio-cultural. If John's assumption is valid then the prejudice against drummers must be worse, because they are more directly and more extensively exposed to the 'polluting' effects of leather (read: death) [just like tanners, butchers, coblers, etc.]. That the socio-cultural status of drummers is very low indeed, needs no mention, but the question is whether the prejudice against them should be ascribed to the close contact/association with leather, or to their relatively low hierarchical status as accompanists [in opposition to high status solists]. James Kippen, who wrote on North Indian drumming not so long ago, dwells on the stigma and musically low status of accompanists (including bowers and harmonium players), but faills to address the issue from a religio-cultural point of view. I suspect that this aspect of the prejudice is more important than socio- musical one. I would appreciate if someone would pass on some refference in Dharmasharstras etc., where the 'polluting' effect of leather, and whatever is made by them, is taught ??? Narender Mohkamsing University of Leiden/NWO The netherlands From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Thu Apr 3 09:44:38 1997 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 11:44:38 +0200 Subject: Danielou's French translation of the Kama sutra Message-ID: <161227029318.23782.10837921704701003018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am not to discuss A. Danielou's achievements in the field of musicology, I really enjoyed some of the recordings he directed. As to his translation of the kAma-sUtra [KS], I got it after the completion of my transcription of the text (available since yesterday on the INDOLOGY site; if you have any problem, commentary, critic or suggestions on this, please send them to [self-advertisement] ). At first glance I did not miss much : I think that a student who would translate the extremely simple sentence : KS. 1.2.23 varam adya kapotaH zvo mayUrAt (Better a pigeon TODAY than a peacock TOMORROW) by "Mieux vaut un pigeon ? manger qu'un paon dans le ciel" ("Better a pigeon to eat than a peacock in the sky" -- I don't know [and don't want to know] how it was (re)translated in English --) should decide to learn [another language than] sanskrit... I have no prejudice for or against sexual preferences, we, French, use to say that "Tous les go?ts sont dans la nature". I even committed a paper in the Journal Asiatique about the regulations regarding "Perversion et hi?rarchie au N?pal au XIXe si?cle..." (JA.1983, 281-344), [some more self-advertisement] but I would like to know the opinion of "genuine indologists" [maybe they have more serious subjects to discuss than the translation of the description of erotic practices] about, for instance, Danielou's translation of KS 2.8 "Le comportement viril des femmes et la sodomisation des gar?ons" (sic!). Critics of Marcel Proust noticed that, in in the last volumes of "A la Recherche du temps perdu", almost everybody appears, often unexpectedly, to share the author's preferences... But Proust was writing fiction,not translating vAtsyAyana. J.F. From umhardy at cc.UManitoba.CA Thu Apr 3 18:11:20 1997 From: umhardy at cc.UManitoba.CA (umhardy at cc.UManitoba.CA) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 12:11:20 -0600 Subject: avidya in Pali literature Message-ID: <161227029330.23782.1972319300865258023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In sutra II.5 of Patanjali's Yogasutra, avidya is defined as follows: anityaashuciduHkhaanaatmasu nityashucisukhaatmakhyaatiravidyaa | "Avidya is the taking of the non-eternal, the impure, the painful and the non-self to be the eternal, the pure, the pleasurable and the self." I'm almost certain that there exists, somewhere in early Buddhist (Pali) literature, a passage on avidya which uses very-similar wording. However, I can't seem to locate it at present. Can anyone out there help? Thanks, Kristen Hardy, student of religion, University of Manitoba From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 11:20:27 1997 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 12:20:27 +0100 Subject: shriimadbhagavadgiitaa tapes Message-ID: <161227029321.23782.14280235309601790095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Namaste Shrii Beeharry, Swami Dayananda Saraswati chants "shriimad bhagavadgiitaa" in the traditional manner in a set of three cassettes and also by CD-ROM. You can inquire and order from the Gurukulam in PA at the following address: Arsha Vidya Gurukulam P.O. Box 1059 Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania 18353 Phone: (717) 992-2339 FAX: (717) 992-7150 There is also a "bhagavadgiita Home Study Course" that I am taking at present. The course is very detailed. I only have about half of it now - 890 pages plus a tape. There are also the tapes from the classes from Coimbatore by Swami Dayananda that were taped during the three-year course. You could ask or write the Book and Tape Dept. about more details on all of this information. I hope this helps anyone who is interested. I would especially suggest that the Home Study course be taken by anyone - believers or non-believers - because it is so beautifully put together. (I also listen to the cassettes while studying so that I can learn to chant "bhagavadgiitaa") dhanyavaada-priyaNkaracha, Mantralaura ------- End of forwarded message ------- From bpj at netg.se Thu Apr 3 11:50:14 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 13:50:14 +0200 Subject: european musical instruments in India Message-ID: <161227029324.23782.10409048961417433431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:56 3.4.1997 +0100, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU wrote: > >> against the sarangi (as distinct from a prejudice against sarangi players) >> to the 'polluting' gut strings. Given that gut strings were standard for >> the violin in the nineteenth century, did this cause a problem in South >> India? Did Indian violinists quickly adopt metal wires for stings? > >Contemporary Indian violinists prefer strings from Europe or USA, so they >don't seem to make any special effort to use metal strings exclusively. > >Quite a few vaiNikas, including my guru (whose brother, father, sisters >and husband are all violinists), feel that no musical instrument can be >quite as sacred as the vINA. The fact that it has wood construction and >metal strings is a reason for this. But earlier texts quoted by C. S. >Anantapadmanabhan (The veena: its technique, theory and practice, New >Delhi: Gana Vidya Bharati, 1954) seem to indicate that gut strings were >used on the vINA also. It must be remembered that the south Indian vINA >owes much of its present form to Govinda Dikshitar (16th century CE). > >S. Vidyasankar > >ps. Re: use of wires: there just might be some vastuSAstra texts that >describe wires/strings. An alternative would be to take a field trip to >the places where musical instruments are made, and interview the older >artisans about their methods and sources of strings before India's modern >industrialization. Trichy, Mysore, Miraj and Calcutta should be very good >places for this. I mentioned this discussion to a friend of mine, who is a Baroque (sp?) violinist. Although himself a vegetarian he goes to great hardships to obtain gut strings, because he feels that their "sound" is significantly different from that of wire strings, and more "original". He wondered if this difference in sound have any role wrt to the choice of string material in Indic music? Philip From tat at quel.stu.neva.ru Thu Apr 3 22:26:01 1997 From: tat at quel.stu.neva.ru (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 14:26:01 -0800 Subject: Nyayabhashya encoding Message-ID: <161227029322.23782.12669814829744965432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues, I work on encoding the Nyayabhashya to make its electronic version. I would like to place this version on the indological server but I don't know how to. I will be very grateful for any useful information. Now first five Nyayasutras with commentary are encoded (font is roman) and first ah- nika of the first adhyaya will be finished till june. Thanks in advance, Yours Tattvarthi, tat at quel.stu.neva.ru From sponberg at selway.umt.edu Thu Apr 3 22:04:24 1997 From: sponberg at selway.umt.edu (Alan Sponberg) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 15:04:24 -0700 Subject: Nagarjuna in Vidarbha Message-ID: <161227029339.23782.5561146674897593591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked if I can provide any documentation for the tradition holding that the Buddhist philosopher Naagaarjuna resided for some time in a cave located on Ramtek Hill 30k north (or northeast) of Nagpur. I am guessing that there is no archeological evidence to support this story, but Bu-ston's History of Buddhism does locate Nagarjuna's birthplace in Vidarbha so there may be some historical basis for the tradition. Can anyone provide any further leads or references? Many thanks in advance. ************************************************************************* Alan Sponberg Phone: 406-243-2803 Professor of Asian 406-243-2171 (dept. office) Philosophy & Religion Univerisity of Montana Missoula, MT 59812 USA E-Mail: sponberg at selway.umt.edu From francois at sas.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 14:25:06 1997 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 15:25:06 +0100 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029325.23782.2200263212529001874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I am following this thread with considerable interest and confusion. Does the polluting effect of leather apply to string instruments like the sarod? I know an excellent sarod player who is also a Brahmin. Is this a contradiction in terms? I know about the low status of drummers, but in turn it seems contradicted by the extremely high prestige held by Hindu tabla players such as Kishan Maharaj or Swapan Chauduri. Best wishes. Francois Quiviger From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Apr 4 01:40:57 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 17:40:57 -0800 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029348.23782.17015890448734066645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, George Thompson wrote: [..] > > As for a Skt. term for "world-wide web", perhaps Rta'sya ta'ntu is as good > as any. ;-) > In a private email conversation, Prof. Aklujkar suggested to me the term, "viSva-vyApI-vitAna" - for a similar alliterative effect as in English. vitAna (extension) has the connotation of stretching out too. Isn't there a language-czar somewhere in an Indian govt. office whose job is to coin such terms for use in Hindi? I wonder what they have come up with. S. Vidyasankar From thompson at jlc.net Thu Apr 3 22:23:40 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 18:23:40 -0400 Subject: Danielou's French translation of the Kama sutra Message-ID: <161227029343.23782.13584063720647053820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, it appears that Jean Fezas has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that Danielou was no Sanskritist [D's translation of KS 1.2.23 is eye-opening, though I find myself more amused than aghast: D's interpretations of "adya" and "zvaH" look almost like bad puns!]. As for D's gloss [rather than translation?] of puruSAyita, perhaps it is driven to some extent by D's "personal preferences", but it appears from his English translation of both the Sanskrit and Hindi commentaries that these commentators understood this chapter more or less as D did. [Can you verify this, JF?] My sense is that D relied heavily on the Hindi commentary, and was not interested or perhaps even prepared to offer a literal translation of vAtsyAyana's KS. Of course, I accept the distinction that Jean Fezas makes between fiction and translation, and now that I have access to the Sanskrit text [thanks to JF!] I know not to trust D's translation. But I'm inclined to be tolerant, since I still believe that D knew more or less what vAtsyAyana was talking about [though I do not defend his translation, by any means!]. General question: can one be a bad philologist, but still a good Indologist in some sense? Thanks again to JF for making the text of the KS available. Best wishes, George Thompson From thompson at jlc.net Thu Apr 3 22:23:56 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 18:23:56 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029341.23782.5362852070827364085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear S. Palaniappan, Thank you for forwarding your message to me, and for giving me the opportunity to send you my apologies for not responding to your earlier messages. You are pursuing a very interesting train of thought here. Perhaps a few Vedic references and some comments will be of use to you. To my knowledge the most detailed discussion of the topic of weaving in Vedic is in German, by Wilhelm Rau, called "Weben und Flechten" ["Weaving and Braiding"]. Unfortunately, I do not have access to it any longer, so I cannot give you details of his point of view. However, I can tell you that metaphorical uses of terms for weaving, such as those that you have cited, can be found throughout Vedic literature, starting with the RV. Such metaphorical uses are probably not Vedic inventions but rather are likely to be inheritances from Indo-European, since similar metaphors are found in Avestan, Greek [cf. Ariadne's "thread"], Latin [cf. our English word "text" which derives from Latin textus -- also think of "textile" and "texture", all derived from texere "to weave": related to Skt. taks-, which one finds in Vedic with ma'ntra; also in Avestan], and Old Germanic [unfortunately, again, the best references are in German]. Various forms of the verb vA-/vi-/u [including infinitive o'tum] occur in the RV, in a metaphorical sense "to weave a song or vision" [a rather vivid example is the hymn RV 6.9]. The term sU'tra is attested at AVZ 10.8.37-38, a brahmodya-like pair [without interrogation] that in my view suggests a metaphorical sense [cf. the repeated phrase sU'traM sU'trasya with the verb vid- "to know the thread of the thread", very interesting in light of satya'sya satya'm, studied by Hanns Oertel, who mentions this passage]. Also, as you suggest, forms of the root tan- [ta'ntu, ta'ntra] exhibit this sort of metaphorical sense as well. Here, however, there is the additional factor of the collocation of the verb tan- with yajJa'm, "to stretch out the sacrifice"; see also the phrase Rta'sya ta'ntu [discussed by Lueders]. I won't go into details, for fear of "losing the thread." I apologize if it appears that I am merely throwing details and references at you. I myself would conclude from such evidence that the semantic leap from "weaving" to "utterance" is rooted in an old IE metaphor which the Vedic poets developed in quite elaborate ways. I myself am not capable of saying whether or not there is a connection with the Dravidian metaphor that you are studying. As for a Skt. term for "world-wide web", perhaps Rta'sya ta'ntu is as good as any. ;-) Hoping that this helps, George Thompson From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 18:19:13 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 19:19:13 +0100 Subject: Vatsyayana's Nyayabhashya Message-ID: <161227029333.23782.12973266185444574969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a time of plenty! It is my great pleasure to thank Tattvarthi (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru) for depositing a copy of Vatsyayana's Nyayabhasya with the INDOLOGY Virtual Archive of e-Texts. The files may be accessed via the www at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under "Virtual Archive...", or by ftp directly from ftp.ucl.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgdkw/indology/texts under the name vatsyayana-nyayabhasya.zip vatsyayana-nyayabhasya.readme Best wishes, Dominik From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Thu Apr 3 23:55:54 1997 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 19:55:54 -0400 Subject: avidya in Pali literature Message-ID: <161227029345.23782.4457758580550213713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> In sutra II.5 of Patanjali's Yogasutra, avidya is defined as follows: >> >> anityaashuciduHkhaanaatmasu nityashucisukhaatmakhyaatiravidyaa | >> >> "Avidya is the taking of the non-eternal, the impure, the painful and >the >> non-self to be the eternal, the pure, the pleasurable and the self." >> >> I'm almost certain that there exists, somewhere in early Buddhist >(Pali) >> literature, a passage on avidya which uses very-similar wording. These are the four viparyaasas, usually translated as "perversions" but meaning conceptual reversals. I'm not sure, off-hand, if these are listed in early Pali texts (I can't remember them there), but they do appear in early Prajnaparamita literature and other Mahayana texts. Check in Edgerton's Buddhist-hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary under viparyaasa for references (I don't have one in my office or I would have checked for you). Dan Lusthaus Flordia State University From Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 3 22:20:48 1997 From: Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 22:20:48 +0000 Subject: avidya in Pali literature Message-ID: <161227029337.23782.1868777925289695174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > In sutra II.5 of Patanjali's Yogasutra, avidya is defined as follows: > > anityaashuciduHkhaanaatmasu nityashucisukhaatmakhyaatiravidyaa | > > "Avidya is the taking of the non-eternal, the impure, the painful and the > non-self to be the eternal, the pure, the pleasurable and the self." > > I'm almost certain that there exists, somewhere in early Buddhist (Pali) > literature, a passage on avidya which uses very-similar wording. However, > I can't seem to locate it at present. Can anyone out there help? > > Thanks, > > Kristen Hardy, > student of religion, > University of Manitoba > Not entirely. I don't think you will find anything EXACTLY parallel to this in the Pali Canon, though there are a number of passages that CUMULATIVELY (taken together) come quite close. For example passages that describe avijjaa as failing to recognise the three signs (lakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anattaa, or failing to see the 4 truths, or failing to see the truths of assaada, aadiinava and nissara.na, or the failure to see that "Ya.m ki~nci samudayadhamma.m sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamma.m - Then there are verses like - To see the essence in the unessential and to see the essence as unessential means one can never get to the essence, wandering as one is in the road of wrong intentions. (Dhammapada 11) that are saying something very similar. As are the verses All processes (sankhaaraa) are impermanent. When one sees this with understanding, then one is disillusioned with the things of suffering. This is the Path of Purification. Dhammapada 277 All processes are painful. When one sees this with understanding, then one is disillusioned with the things of suffering. This is the Path of Purification. 278 All processes are out of my control (anattaa). When one sees this with understanding, then one is disillusioned with the things of suffering. This is the Path of Purification. 279 I hope this helps a little. Certainly, I would agree with you that Avijjaa as the failure to see the three lakkhana comes very close to the Patanjali definition - particularly if you translated this as - "Avidya is the taking of what is non-eternal, impure, painful and non-self to be eternal, pure, pleasurable and self." (The inclusion of the "thes" rather reifies "eternal" and "self" in a way that many Buddhists would probably find unacceptable.) -- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Home Page http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Apr 3 20:22:52 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 22:22:52 +0200 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029335.23782.2675432635618815952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Solomon wrote: >I have discussed this matter briefly in "Epigraphic Remains of Indian >Traders in Egypt," International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 22 >(1994): 7-16 (esp. 9-10) (revised and expanded version of article of >the same title in JAOS 111 [1991]: 731-6). I came to the conclusion that >it is reasonably likely that the passages in question are a rough >imitation of some Dravidian language, but it is unlikely that it can be >identified more precisely than that. Just for the record, similar imitations of "barbaric" languages are also found elsewhere in Greek literature. Mayrhofer in his Handbuch des Altpersischen quotes a sequence of words from the Acharnoi of Aristophanes, which he analyzes as an imitation of Persian and even turns into correct Persian. (see Mayrhofer p. 91). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu Fri Apr 4 08:34:20 1997 From: adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu (adheesh sathaye) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 00:34:20 -0800 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029352.23782.870758141872136762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello everyone, I wonder if the low social status of drummers--in particular I have in mind the paraiyans of Tamil Nadu, is more due with the powers/spirits associated with the _context_ of their drumming rather than the specific nature of the instruments they play; the paraiyans are primarily associated, as far as I know, with funerals, and therefore are thus 'polluted' by the dangerous and violent spirits they deal with in the cremation grounds, rather than by the leather on their drum. This would also explain the lack of such a castigation of the classical tabla/mrdangam player, as the players of such instruments are not present in such environments.... This sort of contextual consideration is certainly not an unusual paradigm in S. Asian thought, as evidenced by the entirety of the mAnavadharmashAstra.... --Adheesh --------------______________---------------------_____________--------------- adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu 510-704-0443 'Suddenly Marathi is everywhere.'--C. Masica, 1991. From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Apr 4 06:58:05 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 01:58:05 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029349.23782.16121319623849065528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As for a Skt. term for "world-wide web", perhaps Rta'sya ta'ntu > is as good as any. ;-) In a private email conversation, Prof. Aklujkar suggested to me the term, "viSva-vyApI-vitAna" - for a similar alliterative effect as in English. vitAna (extension) has the connotation of stretching out too. Isn't there a language-czar somewhere in an Indian govt. office whose job is to coin such terms for use in Hindi? I wonder what they have come up with. S. Vidyasankar Although this sounds neither alliterative nor fancy, how about this Tamil term ulagam-cUzh-oTTaDai ;-) -Srini. From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Apr 4 13:22:51 1997 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 08:22:51 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029359.23782.4978855449601053122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the metaphor of weaving and on the meaning of "ota" and "prota" in the Upanisads, I cite here my note on Brhadaranyaka Up. 6.1 in my recent translation of the Upanisads. The note is based on the extensive and wonderful study of Wilhelm Rau (Weben und Fleichten im vedischen Indien, Wiesbaden: Teiner Verlag, 1970) to which George Thompson refers: "The terms ota and prota are undoubtedly technical terms borrowed from weaving. They have been traditionally translated as warp and woof. The problem with that translation is that then the third term--that on which the weaving taken place and which is the basis of all the questions--makes little sense, since the warp and the woof are not woven on anything but by themselves form the cloth. We have then to think of the third either as the loom or as a place where the loom is fixed (both rather unattractive options). Rau (1970, 17) has shown that these terms (derived from A-ve, which is an equivalent of apa-ve, and pra-ve) refer to the back-and-forth movement of the shuttle in the process of weaving. Similar meaning of the prefixes apa and pra are found in the common terms apAna (breathing in) and prANa (breathing out). So both ota and prota refer to the weaving of the woof or weft, the former referring to the movement of the suttle towards the weaver and the latter to its movement away from the weaver. Then the third item upon which the weaving takes place is clear; it is the warp." This meaning also makes sense because the warp is the fixed and permanent element, whiche the woof represents movement and change. Patrick Olivelle *********************************** Patrick Olivelle Director, Center for Asian Studies Chair, Department of Asian Studies WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) University of Texas Austin, TX 78712-1194 USA *********************************** From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 4 13:53:39 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 08:53:39 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029362.23782.3207909722678766886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-03 18:36:37 EST, you write: << To my knowledge the most detailed discussion of the topic of weaving in Vedic is in German, by Wilhelm Rau, called "Weben und Flechten" ["Weaving and Braiding"]. Unfortunately, I do not have access to it any longer, so I cannot give you details of his point of view. However, I can tell you that metaphorical uses of terms for weaving, such as those that you have cited, can be found throughout Vedic literature, starting with the RV. Such metaphorical uses are probably not Vedic inventions but rather are likely to be inheritances from Indo-European, since similar metaphors are found in Avestan, Greek [cf. Ariadne's "thread"], Latin [cf. our English word "text" which derives from Latin textus -- also think of "textile" and "texture", all derived from texere "to weave": related to Skt. taks-, which one finds in Vedic with ma'ntra; also in Avestan], and Old Germanic [unfortunately, again, the best references are in German]. Various forms of the verb vA-/vi-/u [including infinitive o'tum] occur in the RV, in a metaphorical sense "to weave a song or vision" [a rather vivid example is the hymn RV 6.9]. The term sU'tra is attested at AVZ 10.8.37-38, a brahmodya-like pair [without interrogation] that in my view suggests a metaphorical sense [cf. the repeated phrase sU'traM sU'trasya with the verb vid- "to know the thread of the thread", very interesting in light of satya'sya satya'm, studied by Hanns Oertel, who mentions this passage]. Also, as you suggest, forms of the root tan- [ta'ntu, ta'ntra] exhibit this sort of metaphorical sense as well. Here, however, there is the additional factor of the collocation of the verb tan- with yajJa'm, "to stretch out the sacrifice"; see also the phrase Rta'sya ta'ntu [discussed by Lueders]. I won't go into details, for fear of "losing the thread." >> Thank you for your comments. Your reference of RV 6.9 made me consider the process of weaving more closely. In Tamil/Dravidian, the word for warp is 'pA' and the word for woof is 'UTu'. The basic meaning of 'pA' is 'to stretch, to spread'. The word 'pAy' meaning 'to flow' (as the river) is derived from this. Significantly, the word for 'verse' is also 'pA'. The word 'pATu' meaning 'to sing' is derived from this. Cognates of 'pATu' occur in all the groups of Dravidian. So this must go back to proto-Dravidian. Now, the use of "ta'ntu" the Sanskrit term for warp in the meaning of 'to sing' is identical. Again, we may be talking some universal concepts. But is there any evidence of Indo-European usage of 'warp' specifically to denote verses/songs which are stretched out utterances? By the way, if you can give the reference on or explain more Ariadne's "thread", it will be a help. Can you suggest somebody who can give me the conclusions of "Weben und Flechten"? Thanks. Regards. S. Palaniappan From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Apr 4 14:57:32 1997 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 08:57:32 -0600 Subject: Q: Neeladarpana Message-ID: <161227029367.23782.12644635098373461564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all members of the list: A colleague of mine here who knows nothing about India or South Asia generally is setting up a course on imperialism. She asked me yesterday if there were any materials from India or about India that she could use, particularly literary materials, that were from the nineteenth century and expressed an anti-imperialist point of view or that at least dealt explicitly with British or Company Rule in India. And, she said, though it wouldn't be necessary, it would also be nice if those materials also dealt with the status of women. I made a few suggestions, but any suggestions from any of you would be most welcome. (This is not exactly my area of knowledge.) The one literary piece that immediately came to mind, but which I have not yet mentioned to her is the play about indigo production called, I believe, _Neeladarpana_. My assumption has been that this was initially a Bengali play. I understand that many plays against particular British policies were put on in the mid to late nineteenth century, and at least partly because of those plays the British passed the Dramatic Performances Act of 1879 to censor such plays or prevent their production entirely. (_Indian Theater: Traditions of Performance_, ed. by Farley P. Richmond, U of Hawaii Press, 1990, pp 388-89.) I believe it was after the passing of that act that _Neeladarpana_ was performed in Lucknow, and the British responded by shooting the actors while they were on stage. But I'm only working from memory here, and I'm not confident of that memory. Can anyone confirm what I've written or tell me what in fact was the case? Is there a good English translation of that play? Any other help in this general area would be most appreciated both by me and by my colleague. Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 4 14:34:11 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 09:34:11 -0500 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029363.23782.13548824872648368028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-04 05:25:01 EST, adheesh at uclink4.berkeley.edu (adheesh sathaye) writes: << I wonder if the low social status of drummers--in particular I have in mind the paraiyans of Tamil Nadu, is more due with the powers/spirits associated with the _context_ of their drumming rather than the specific nature of the instruments they play; the paraiyans are primarily associated, as far as I know, with funerals, and therefore are thus 'polluted' by the dangerous and violent spirits they deal with in the cremation grounds, rather than by the leather on their drum. This would also explain the lack of such a castigation of the classical tabla/mrdangam player, as the players of such instruments are not present in such environments.... This sort of contextual consideration is certainly not an unusual paradigm in S. Asian thought, as evidenced by the entirety of the mAnavadharmashAstra. >> Tamil 'paRaiyar' were not considered untouchable in the period of Classical Tamil period, and 'paRai', the drum, and leather were not considered polluting at that time. That 'paRaiyar' were not considered untouchable even during medieval Tamilnadu is clear from inscription 4. of Rajaraja in Tanjore temple, in which a town called tirutteGgUr, 'paRaiccEri' and 'tINTAccEri' were said to be present. 'paRaiccEri' was the section of the town where the 'paRaiyar' lived and 'tINTAccEri' was the settlement where the untouchables ('tINTA' meaning 'untouchable') lived. Regards. S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 4 14:44:49 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 09:44:49 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029365.23782.2622228220730352440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I am not mistaken, in the looms I have seen in Tamilnadu, the movement of the shuttle is sideways with respect to the weaver, and not towards and away from the weaver. The width of the cloth is fixed by the size of the loom and it is the length of the cloth which is variable. In fact, it is because of this nature of looms, all the words for cloth in Tamil/Dravidian are derived from words meaning 'to cut'. Cf. words 'tuNi', 'tuNTu', 'kURai', 'aRuvai', etc. Is the Indo-European loom conceptually different? Regards. S. Palaniappan From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Fri Apr 4 08:00:35 1997 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 10:00:35 +0200 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029351.23782.5804532854146992576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >(On 3-APR-1997 01:50) Narender Mohkamsing wrote: >I would appreciate if someone would pass on some refference in Dharmasharstras >etc., where the 'polluting' effect of leather, and whatever is made by them, is >taught ??? The relation between pollution and leather is not a very explicit one in dharmazaastra. Persons working in hides (carmakaara) are classified as antyajas together with the washerman, the dancer / performer (naTa) and other groups. But this group of people is not regarded as untouchable in the classical literature. Only in medieval digests (SmRticandrikaa and CaturvargacintaamaNi for instance) do we find this view. I have not come across an explicit reference to drummers in dharmazaastra. But acording to one (but not the only one) etymology of the _tamil_ term (?, correct me if I am wrong) paRaiya (which in South Indian non-dharmazaastra sources is regarded as socially equal to the untouchable caNDaala in dharmazaastra), this term means something like "drum-people". In a hagiography of the paRaiya naayanmaar, Nantanaar, his hamlet is described very much according to stereotypical descriptions of caNDaala hamlets in Sankrit literature. But instead of clothes of dead people, which is a standard ingredient in such descriptions because caNDaalas according to dharmazaastra were prescribed to clothe themselves in such clothes, these paRaiyas are surrounded by their drums which are hanging from the branches of the mango trees. The text is quoted (from K.A.N. Sastri) in: K.R. Hanumanthan, _Untouchability: A historical study upto 1500 A.D._, Madurai, Koodal Publishers 1979, pp.166-67. Best regards Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Fri Apr 4 01:20:11 1997 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 11:20:11 +1000 Subject: 'polluting' effect of leather in music? Message-ID: <161227029346.23782.12244274953308162753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:41:22 BST, Mohkamsing writes: >I would like to elaborate on John Napier's remark on the 'polluting' effect of >gut strings, and draw the attention to the practice of drumming. . . . . the prejudice against drummers must be >worse, because they are more directly and more extensively exposed to the >'polluting' effects of leather (read: death) [just like tanners, butchers, >coblers, etc.]. The Indian musicologist A.D. Ranade, when asked about this very point, referred to the long established association of leather skinned drums with various deities, and the association of pakhawaj with Vaishnava tradition as long since ameliorating this situation. The issue is less certain with the tabla. He seemed to think that it was a case of time and associatin providing an 'out'. I can't recall any image of any Indian deity playing a sarangi, though I have seen a lovely C19 Bengali image of Krishna playing the violin. Given M's reference to the low status of players of harmonium, I do have a couple of recent bronze's of Ganesh playing the harmonium. Perhaps my tongue is in my cheek when I cite this as the instrument's "naturalisation certificate". John Napier From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Fri Apr 4 09:34:50 1997 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 11:34:50 +0200 Subject: Danielou's French translation of the Kama sutra Message-ID: <161227029354.23782.4373997384704297206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:01 04/04/1997 BST, G Thomson wrote: >Well, it appears that Jean Fezas has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt >that Danielou was no Sanskritist [D's translation of KS 1.2.23 is >eye-opening, though I find myself more amused than aghast: D's >interpretations of "adya" and "zvaH" look almost like bad puns!]. Sure... Adya : "eatable" and svar : "sky"... >As for D's gloss [rather than translation?] of puruSAyita, perhaps it is >driven to some extent by D's "personal preferences", but it appears from >his English translation of both the Sanskrit and Hindi commentaries that >these commentators understood this chapter more or less as D did. [Can you >verify this, JF?] For the transcription of the KS, I used two editions of the KS : The first was published in saMvat 1991 (1935), in Bombay, par gaGgAviSNu zrIkRSNadAsa, owner of the lakSmIveGkatezvara sTIm pres (i.e. steam press), it was 'for private circulation only' ! and includes in its two volumes : The text : zrIvAtsyAyanamaharSipraNItaM kAmasUtram, Yazodhara's commentary : zrIyazodharaviracitayA jayamaGgalAkhyavyAkhyayA sahitam, And the vernacular gloss (bhASA-TIkA) of a "non specialized (?) independant research scholar", a certain paNDita mAdhavAcArya : sarvatantrasvatantra-risarca-skAlar paNDita mAdhavAcArya-nirmitayA puruSArtha-prabhAkhyA-bhASA-TIkayA TIppaNIbhiz ca vibhUSitam The second is the well-known Kashi Sanskrit Series 29, the kAmasUtram of zrI vatsyAyAna muni... edited with Hindi Commentary by zrI devaduTTa zAstrI, VaranasI, 1964. (To which refers A. Dani?lou's translation : K?ma s?tra, le br?viaire de l'amour, commentaire Jayamagal? en sanskrit de Yashodhara; extraits d'un commentaire en hindi de Devadatta Sh?str?. I happened to make occasional references to both hindI commentaries in the French notes of my transcription, more often to Yazodhara's gloss or remarks, the problem is that none of these commentators undertands the chapter in question (purUSAyita) like D. It seems clear from the text and the commentaries that, when her lover is a bit exhausted, a woman can, with his consentmen.t (2.8.1) or not (2.8.2), or on his demand(2.8.3) come on top of him. Let's take a look at the following : 2.8.4 tatra yukta-yantreNaivetareNotthApyamAnA tam adhaH pAtayet. evaM ca ratam avicchinnarasaM tathA pravRttam eva syAt. ity eko 'yaM mArgaH. D. "Elle est d?cid?e ? l'unir ? l'instrument qu'elle lui introduit dans le cul de fa?on ? ce qu'il prenne go?t (Rasa) ? un plaisir (Rata) apr?s l'autre. Cela est une des fa?ons de proc?der." For those who do not read French : "She is decided to unite him to the tool she is busy introducing into his ass, so as to make him taste (rasa) one pleasure (rata) after the other. That is one of the ways to proceed." This kind of remedy to impotency (seasoned with some spices) may be familiar to the readers of Petronius Arbiter (Satyricon CXXXVIII) but this classical practice (only used in cases of emergency) has nothing to do with vAtsyAyana. If we take a look at yazodhara' commentary : tatreti -- puruSAyite / dvividhaH kramaH / tatrAyaM prathamo yukta-yantreNaivAparityakta-zalya-saMyogenaiva itareNa nAyakena tryasra-sthitenAsInena cotthApyamAnA bAhu-pAza-saMdAnitA saty upari kriyamANA taM nAyakam avapAtayed iti / evaM sati ratam avicchinna-rasaM tathA pravRttam eva syAt / yantraM vizleSya punaH saMdhAne ratam apUrvam eva syAt ... The gloss makes it clear that he woman gets on top of her lover keeping his penis inside of her (a-parityakta-zalya-saMyogena ... nayakena), and that in consequence there is no interruption in sensation, which would not be the case otherwise. The HindI commentary just gives a (poetical) confirmation: puruSa-kA sAdhana us-ke madana-maMdira-se alag na hone pAe ([this way], the instrument of the male has not the possibility of being separated from her 'love-palace'... [KSS29 p.340] >My sense is that D relied heavily on the Hindi commentary, and was not >interested or perhaps even prepared to offer a literal translation of >vAtsyAyana's KS. > D. did not rely heavily on Sk. or Hindi commentaries. He was not interested at all in the Kama-sutra. He relied on his own obsessions and was only interested in promoting them. >Of course, I accept the distinction that Jean Fezas makes between fiction >and translation, and now that I have access to the Sanskrit text [thanks to >JF!] I know not to trust D's translation. But I'm inclined to be tolerant, >since I still believe that D knew more or less what vAtsyAyana was talking >about [though I do not defend his translation, by any means!]. I believe that erotism and erotical practices, are an important part of any civilization. That the kAma-sUtra is one of the keys to understand the relation between men and women in ancient and in modern India. To try to be an indologist is also to warn against translations which distort the texts to make them fit to the religious, political, or sexual obsessions of the translator. >General question: can one be a bad philologist, but still a good Indologist >in some sense? > My answer : a bad philologist cannot be a good indologist in any sense; but a good philologist can still not be a good indologist :-) NB1. For the collectors, another recent french 'translation' of the KS exists : Les K?ma-s?tra, V?tsy?yana, Traduit du Sanskrit et pr?sent? par Jean Papin, Zulma, 1991 "Publi? avec le concours du Centre R?gional des Lettres Midi-Pyr?n?es" [?] Its only relation with the sanskrit original is a photocopy of the first page of the text in the Kashi Sanskrit Series edition of the text (Varanasi, 1964), otherwise it owes most of its substance to Burton / Arbuthnot's translation. From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 4 09:55:45 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 11:55:45 +0200 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029357.23782.6563702419138261177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:59 4.4.1997 +0100, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, George Thompson wrote: > >[..] > >> >> As for a Skt. term for "world-wide web", perhaps Rta'sya ta'ntu is as good >> as any. ;-) >> > >In a private email conversation, Prof. Aklujkar suggested to me the term, >"viSva-vyApI-vitAna" - for a similar alliterative effect as in English. >vitAna (extension) has the connotation of stretching out too. If this is to be put to a straw vote I really like this one. (And I must confess I never liked the image of the world caught in a net...). There is of course also the "indrajAla" as a useful simile in the old literature. >Isn't there a language-czar somewhere in an Indian govt. office whose job >is to coin such terms for use in Hindi? I wonder what they have come up >with. Unless they are any better than their Icelandic and Scandinavian counterparts, with their mindless calques on English that in any case run athwart the linguistic sensibilities of most people, it is probably worthwhile to give them a match on this. Incidentally the WWW would become VVV in Swedish also: "Vaerlds-vida Vaeven". Just a thought: In Devnagri the ellipsis of "viSva-vyApI-vitAna" would be "vi.vyA.vi". Unless "vivyAvi" is already an existing Sanskrit word (at least it is not in my desk-side dictionary [Mylius]) it might come in handy for day-to-day use, and sounds a lot better than "vavava". > >S. Vidyasankar Philip Jonsson From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Apr 4 17:03:26 1997 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 12:03:26 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029370.23782.6162892591312704844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We really do not know the type of loom that forms the basis of the metaphor. It appears that the weaver was located not behind the warp (as in modern hand-looms) but on the side where she (and it is mostly women!) can pass the shuttle back and forth. I have seen one reference that speaks of a pair of women weaving (can't think of the source); if so there may have been two women on either side of the loom passing the shuttle back and forth Patrick >If I am not mistaken, in the looms I have seen in Tamilnadu, the movement of >the shuttle is sideways with respect to the weaver, and not towards and away >from the weaver. The width of the cloth is fixed by the size of the loom and >it is the length of the cloth which is variable. In fact, it is because of >this nature of looms, all the words for cloth in Tamil/Dravidian are derived >from words meaning 'to cut'. Cf. words 'tuNi', 'tuNTu', 'kURai', 'aRuvai', >etc. Is the Indo-European loom conceptually different? > >Regards. > >S. Palaniappan *********************************** Patrick Olivelle Director, Center for Asian Studies Chair, Department of Asian Studies WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) University of Texas Austin, TX 78712-1194 USA *********************************** From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Apr 4 17:06:21 1997 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 12:06:21 -0500 Subject: Pingree address Message-ID: <161227029372.23782.3673069885142607644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David does not like computers! But I think he can be reached at: hmath at brownvm.brown.edu The telephone is (401) 863-2101; Box 1900, Brown University, Providence, RI 02912 Patrick >I would like to get in touch with Prof. David Pingree. Would anyone know >whether he has an email account, or failing that, his mailing address, >phone/fax number(s), etc? Thanks very much in advance. > >Martin Gansten *********************************** Patrick Olivelle Director, Center for Asian Studies Chair, Department of Asian Studies WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) University of Texas Austin, TX 78712-1194 USA *********************************** From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Fri Apr 4 12:50:53 1997 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 12:50:53 +0000 Subject: Q: Kannada words in a Greek play? Message-ID: <161227029356.23782.17591239586775903490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thu, 3 Apr Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Just for the record, similar imitations of "barbaric" languages are >also >found elsewhere in Greek literature. Mayrhofer in his Handbuch des >Altpersischen quotes a sequence of words from the Acharnoi of >Aristophanes, >which he analyzes as an imitation of Persian and even turns into >correct >Persian. (see Mayrhofer p. 91). > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > Another example: In the Latin play Poenulus by Plautus there is a speech supposedly given in Punic. The Punic language being a development of Phoenician and mainly known only from short inscriptions, Semitic scholars have had great trouble to explain this passage, but as far as I know nothing convincing has been achieved. Last sunday my family was watching at an old Finnish movie, made about 60 years ago. In this movie there were some Russians who spoke something which in Finnish ears perhaps sounded like Russian, but was not. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Apr 4 21:32:07 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 13:32:07 -0800 Subject: Tr of sarva-tantra-sva-tantra Message-ID: <161227029385.23782.8386153609982158380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the highly helpful messages of Jean Fezas , there is one detail regarding which he shows uncertainty: >And the vernacular gloss (bhASA-TIkA) of a "non specialized (?) >independant research scholar", a certain paNDita mAdhavAcArya : >sarvatantrasvatantra-risarca-skAlar paNDita mAdhavAcArya-nirmitayA >puruSArtha-prabhAkhyA-bhASA-TIkayA TIppaNIbhiz ca vibhUSitam < sarva-tantra-sva-tantra usually has an implication of great mastery over several branches of learning and/or of originality. It is used to refer to a scholar or thinker who is not constrained by any one branch of learning or by all relevant branches of learning taken together -- an author who has acquired the right to introduce changes in the traditionally handed down body of knowledge ( a good example would be Vaacaspati-mi;sra I). According to Indian cultural norms, a scholar should not employ sarva-tantra-sva-tantra to refer to himself or herself. Others, impressed by his scholarship and originality, should feel like extending that honour to him. However, I would not be surprised if some nineteenth and twentieth century pa.n.ditas glorified themselves with this epithet when they put down their names as authors or editors. Theirs was a time when job opportunities for Sanskritists were shrinking (thanks largely to the Thomas Macawleys of the world) and self-advocacy had, in many cases, become a matter of personal survival. (This is not to say that there could not have been pa.n.ditas with strong egos who thought that the world owed them this title.) More learned variants of sarva-tantra-sva-tantra are nikhila-tantraaparatantra etc. The title pa.n.dita-raaja offers a comparable case. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Apr 4 21:32:09 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 13:32:09 -0800 Subject: Balram Message-ID: <161227029383.23782.14841336232634146861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I may not be getting the exact intention behindLeona Anderson's question (>Specifically, how would you interpret the use of this god as a symbol of a contemporary, pro-Hindutva agrarian movement?<), but isn't Balaraama's association with a plough and with diverting the waters of Yamunaa a sufficient basis for anyone wanting to associate him with agriculture? A verse quoted in Raaja-;sekhara's Kaavya-miimaa.msaa (halam agu balasyaiko 'na.dvaan ... prabhavati k.r.sir naadyaapy e.saa.m dvitiiya-gava.m vinaa) already shows such an association, albeit in a non-serious way. From rupert.gethin at bristol.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 13:38:14 1997 From: rupert.gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 13:38:14 +0000 Subject: avidya in Pali literature Message-ID: <161227029360.23782.15046952468728597648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>> In sutra II.5 of Patanjali's Yogasutra, avidya is defined as >follows: >>> >>> anityaashuciduHkhaanaatmasu nityashucisukhaatmakhyaatiravidyaa | >>> >>> "Avidya is the taking of the non-eternal, the impure, the painful >and >>the >>> non-self to be the eternal, the pure, the pleasurable and the self." >>> >>> I'm almost certain that there exists, somewhere in early Buddhist >>(Pali) >>> literature, a passage on avidya which uses very-similar wording. > >These are the four viparyaasas, usually translated as "perversions" but >meaning conceptual reversals. I'm not sure, off-hand, if these are >listed >in early Pali texts (I can't remember them there), but they do appear >in >early Prajnaparamita literature and other Mahayana texts. Check in >Edgerton's Buddhist-hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary under viparyaasa for >references (I don't have one in my office or I would have checked for >you). > >Dan Lusthaus >Flordia State University > The Pali equivalent of Sanskrit viparyaasa is vipallaasa, but the forms vipariyesa and vipallattha are also found. The four vipallaasa are found in the later Nikaaya texts (e.g. A II 52) and early Abhidhamma texts (e.g. Vibh 376). For further references, see the PTS Pali-English Dictionary. Rupert Gethin University of Bristol rupert.gethin at bristol.ac.uk From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 4 18:46:34 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 13:46:34 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029375.23782.10683177951113559749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Isn't there a language-czar somewhere in an Indian govt. office whose job > is to coin such terms for use in Hindi? I wonder what they have come up > with. This brings up something that has been bothering me. In which language did the word `antarraaSTriya' originate as the translation of `international' and did this use of antar have antecedents in that language? The reason why I don't think that this is natural in Hindi is this: One dictionary (I think `Oxford') translates `antarjaata' as `innate', `endogamous', and `antarjaatiya' as `intercaste'. Another, called something like `Bhargava's Hindi-English Dictionary' translates `antarjaatiya' as `intercaste' but has a seperate entry for `antarjaatiya vivaah' with the meaning given as `endogamous marriage' [I am not kidding.] And Raghu Vira's English-Hindi dictionary suggests `antar' to form claques of both `endo' and `inter'. Very confusing. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Apr 4 22:28:33 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 14:28:33 -0800 Subject: Not about Neeladarpana but related Message-ID: <161227029388.23782.6608025197366283285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bob Hueckstedt inquired about >particularly literary materials, that were from the nineteenth century and expressed an anti-imperialist point of view or that at least dealt explicitly with British or Company Rule in India. < As I recall, there is a book listing publications proscribed by British authorities of India. I saw a copy of it some years ago in the India Office Library (and was amused to notice that not a single Sanskrit work was mentioned in it although, I am sure, some Sanskrit periodicals were publishing patriotic, possibly seditious, writing at least in the early twentieth century if not in the nineteenth). Frank Conlon, where are you? I also have an impression that a poem (most probably originally written by R. Tagore) was translated and recreated in various Indian languages in the early twentieth century. It was addressed to a caged bird/parrot and allegorically spoke of lack of freedom. I have read Appaa;saastrii Ra;siva.dekara's elegant Sanskrit poem "Pa;njara-baddha.h ;suka.h" which makes the same point using the same allegory. It was certainly written before 1913/1914, for that was the year in which Appaa;saastrii died (prematurely at the age of 39). (To find out the exact year of Appaa;saastrii's composition, I will need access to Sa.msk.rta-candrikaa issues, which are not available here). Perhaps specialists of the different traditions of Indian literature subscribing to this list can help in tracing the history of a poetic motif and device that played a significant role in India's struggle against imperialism. From andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca Fri Apr 4 20:47:15 1997 From: andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca (Leona Anderson) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 14:47:15 -0600 Subject: Balram Message-ID: <161227029381.23782.8550260566117867631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a special request related to a research project for an MA. The movement under study is a farmers' organization known as the Bhartiya Kisan Sangh affiliated with the RSS in Gujarat. Balram, to quote one of their leaders, has been adopted as a symbol by the movement because he was "the first scientific farmer". He is depicted with a large pestal for processing rice and a cultivating implement. Specifically, how would you interpret the use of this god as a symbol of a contemporary, pro-Hindutva agrarian movement? Another request for information, relates to general religious beliefs and deities important to the Patidar caste community of Gujarat. Patidars (with surnames of Patel and Chaudhary, for example) dominate the movement's leadership. Krishna seems to be an important deity, so does this explain the use of Balram? What do you know of the general beliefs of Patidars? Thirdly, the Patidar community has apparently undergone a dramatic transformation in terms of various caste and religious practices. Apparently, before the 19th century they generally engaged in goddess worship and practices of bride price, meat eating, and others more typical of a Sudra origin. Now, they claim kshatriya status, are involved in vaishnavism, dowry and a prohibition on meat eating. Please comment. From magier at columbia.edu Fri Apr 4 20:22:13 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 15:22:13 -0500 Subject: Pingree address Message-ID: <161227029378.23782.13216688243388683211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I would like to get in touch with Prof. David Pingree. Would anyone know > whether he has an email account, or failing that, his mailing address, > phone/fax number(s), etc? Thanks very much in advance. > > Martin Gansten > > His mailing address is: Prof. David Pingree History of Mathematics Department Brown University Box 1900 Providence, RI 02912 He doesn't use email. David Magier From tat at quel.stu.neva.ru Fri Apr 4 23:53:39 1997 From: tat at quel.stu.neva.ru (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 15:53:39 -0800 Subject: Nyayabhashya Message-ID: <161227029395.23782.12144372714702146115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, resently I encoded first five Nyayasutras with their commentary-bhashya and Mr. Domi- nik was so kind as to place them on indological server. Sure, mistakes are not imposib- le, so any remarks and recommendations are welcomed. Sincerely Yours, Tattvarthi. (tat at quel.stu.neva.ru) From mgansten at sbbs.se Fri Apr 4 15:39:34 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 17:39:34 +0200 Subject: Pingree address Message-ID: <161227029368.23782.10917848891020228926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to get in touch with Prof. David Pingree. Would anyone know whether he has an email account, or failing that, his mailing address, phone/fax number(s), etc? Thanks very much in advance. Martin Gansten From zskiljan at alf.tel.hr Fri Apr 4 17:36:11 1997 From: zskiljan at alf.tel.hr (Zdenko Skiljan) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 19:36:11 +0200 Subject: Looking for commercial dictionary Message-ID: <161227029373.23782.17684909287994429791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very grateful if anybody would send me information about available commercial dictionaries end texts on CD-ROM. Thanks, Zdenko Skiljan, student of Indology, Croatia ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Zdenko Shkiljan e-mail: zskiljan at jagor.srce.hr (University Computing Centre - Zagreb) zskiljan at alf.tel.hr (HPT - Zagreb) snail-mail: Praunspergerova 2/1 10430 Samobor CROATIA telephone: +385 1 785 704 From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Fri Apr 4 20:07:52 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 22:07:52 +0200 Subject: Danielou's French translation of the Kama sutra Message-ID: <161227029377.23782.17069049181346476639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Salut: Est-ce que tu sais qqchose de rumeurs selon laquelle la traduction que Dani?lou a faite du maNimEkalai tamoul (publi?e chez Flammarion en 1987) ?tait en fait un plagiat de celle de T.V. Gopal Iyer de l'Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry? La petite histoire (telle qu'on me la dite) veut que Iyer ait inno- cement montr? sa traduction ? Dani?lou qui l'a ensuite aimablement remerci? de son aide pr?cieuse en en faisant (malgr? lui) un collabo- rateur ? la traduction, ou en d'autres termes que la traduction de Dani?lou avec la collaboration de Iyer est en fait la traduction de Iyer emprunt?e par Dani?lou sans l'accord de son propri?taire. Il y a-t-il des raisons de croire ? cette histoire? Ciao Jacob From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Fri Apr 4 20:36:03 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 22:36:03 +0200 Subject: please travel back in time and don't read my previous message! Message-ID: <161227029380.23782.17232403448042215204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> please do not read my previous message!!! (what, too late???) grrr. my previous message was supposed to be a private email to jean fezas. i've had been caught by that "feature" of that list but never with such embarrassing results. isn't there a setting so that replying to a message on the list would mean replying privately to the poster? embarrassed in brussels From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Apr 5 05:08:05 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 00:08:05 -0500 Subject: Not about Neeladarpana but related Message-ID: <161227029390.23782.16737588547683045497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Tamil the writings of cuppiramaniya parathiyar (I have used a spelling which will be useful for library catalog searches) and especially his work "pAJcAli capatam" dealing with the episode where draupati swears not to braid her hair until duhsasana is killed . Here India is supposed to be figuratively portayed as draupatI. From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Apr 5 05:23:22 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 00:23:22 -0500 Subject: Balram Message-ID: <161227029391.23782.15652426978409533318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-04 18:37:46 EST, you write: << Another request for information, relates to general religious beliefs and deities important to the Patidar caste community of Gujarat. Patidars (with surnames of Patel and Chaudhary, for example) dominate the movement's leadership. Krishna seems to be an important deity, so does this explain the use of Balram? What do you know of the general beliefs of Patidars? Thirdly, the Patidar community has apparently undergone a dramatic transformation in terms of various caste and religious practices. Apparently, before the 19th century they generally engaged in goddess worship and practices of bride price, meat eating, and others more typical of a Sudra origin. Now, they claim kshatriya status, are involved in vaishnavism, dowry and a prohibition on meat eating. Please comment. >> Two useful references are "Party Building in a New Nation" by Myron Weiner (1967) and Democracy and Dissent by Atul Kohli. You can find information about Patidars of Kaira district in Gujarat in particular and Patidars in general. Kohli studied the same places studied by Weiner, after more than 20 years. Regards. S. Palaniappan From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 4 22:25:04 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 00:25:04 +0200 Subject: please travel back in time and don't read my previous message! Message-ID: <161227029386.23782.13768644043139740515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:41 4.4.1997 +0100, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >please do not read my previous message!!! (what, too late???) > >grrr. my previous message was supposed to be a private email >to jean fezas. i've had been caught by that "feature" of that >list but never with such embarrassing results. > >isn't there a setting so that replying to a message on the >list would mean replying privately to the poster? > >embarrassed in brussels Why embarrassed? If that rumor is true it should be made known, else it should be refuted. The truth does not thrive in secrecy. Philip PS: I also got a chance to dust off my French :-) From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Sat Apr 5 08:06:20 1997 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 10:06:20 +0200 Subject: Danielou and maNimEkalai Message-ID: <161227029393.23782.2137947513148821113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since too much has already been said or alluded to, I believe I should say what I know: I personnaly know T.V.Gopal Iyer (I have been his student). He is an immense Tamil scholar. He did an english translation of maNimEkalai but he was cheated by Danielou. I cannot give you the details of how it happened (only T.V.Gopal Iyer could) The translation which was published as Manimekhala? (The Dancer with the Magic Bowl) by Merchant-Prince Shattan Translated by Alain Danielou with the collaboration of T.V.Gopala Iyer A New Direction Book is mostly TVG's although at places Dani?lou has introduced errors. This is a shame and a pity. I do not how the matter stands with Dani?lou's "translation" of cilappatikAram but it has to be the same (somebody else doing the translation and Dani?lou doing some polishing and putting his signature). I won't give any more details. All I have for a proof is TVG's testimony and my admiration for him. -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) From jehms at globalxs.nl Sat Apr 5 10:33:38 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 11:33:38 +0100 Subject: Nietzschegati Message-ID: <161227029396.23782.3387883345487395760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In section 27 of 'Beyond Good and Evil', Nietzsche uses the? Sanskrit terms 'Gangasrotagati','Kurmagati', and 'Mandukagati', to describe different types of living and thought. Can anyone tell me where he might have read these expressions and in what context they're used?? ? thanks? ? erik hoogcarspel From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat Apr 5 14:09:26 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 13:09:26 -0100 Subject: Danielou's French translation of the Kama sutra Message-ID: <161227029402.23782.16815039110180113612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 04 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (thompson at jlc.net) tn> From: thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) tn> Subject: Re: Danielou's French translation of the Kama tn> sutra tn> Well, it appears that Jean Fezas has demonstrated beyond tn> reasonable doubt tn> that Danielou was no Sanskritist [...] With reference also to the rumour about the hijacked Ma.nimeekalai translation which Jacob Baltuch unintentionally mentioned: we may as well add that Danielou was hardly a great Tamil scholar either. His translation of the Cilappatikaaram is not a "translation", but rather a feeble paraphrase. I have not read D.'s Ma.nimeekalai, but his Cilappatikaaram is so poor that I am inclined not to dismiss the rumour as mere hearsay. It is of course suspect that Gopal Iyer had been working on a translation for quite a while. tn> General question: can one be a bad philologist, but still a good tn> Indologist in some sense? (A tentative answer:) When a person's philology / general mastery of his Indian source language reaches a certain level of badness, we may doubt whether he still has an adequate idea of what he is talking about. So there clearly is a connection. Within certain reasonable margins, depending also on the focus of the writing, we may forgive an occasional bit of philological laxity. And there are different personal styles of presentation. But if something is offered as a translation from the Sanskrit when it is actually more from the Hindi... Robert Zydenbos From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Apr 5 13:23:13 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 14:23:13 +0100 Subject: Pingree address Message-ID: <161227029398.23782.5711600900093201867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Martin Gansten wrote: > I would like to get in touch with Prof. David Pingree. Would anyone know > whether he has an email account, or failing that, his mailing address, > phone/fax number(s), etc? Thanks very much in advance. Prof. Pingree does not have a direct email account, but email to his research assistant Kim Plofker will reach him: HMATH at brownvm.brown.edu His postal address is P O Box 1900 Brown University Providence, RI, 02912 USA All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Apr 5 13:24:41 1997 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 14:24:41 +0100 Subject: please travel back in time and don't read my previous message! Message-ID: <161227029399.23782.15727094865505157330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > isn't there a setting so that replying to a message on the > list would mean replying privately to the poster? Yes, INDOLOGY could be set up this way (I believe), but we've had straw polls in the past, and most people have said they prefer it the way it is. All the best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From newman at virtu.sar.usf.edu Sat Apr 5 21:36:39 1997 From: newman at virtu.sar.usf.edu (John Newman (NC)) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 16:36:39 -0500 Subject: Identification of sm.rti and vedic (?) quotations Message-ID: <161227029404.23782.7538265039088532889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With apologies, this is a re-posting (the last) of a message I posted one month ago, in the hope that members of the list who missed it the first time will be able to offer assistance: > I am working on a paper titled "Islam in the Buddhist Kaalacakra Tantra," > and one > of my major sources, the Vimalaprabhaa, cites two passages apparently > drawn > from brahmanical sources in the context anti-brahmanical polemics. > I would be grateful for any assistance members of the list might offer in > identifying the sources of these passages: > > 1) do.san tatra na paZyaami yo du.s.te du.s.tam aacared iti > > I suspect this is drawn from a sm.rti, because the Vimalaprabhaa anonymously cites > Manu, Yaajnyavalkya, and the Mahaabhaarata in the same context. > > 2) indra.h paZur aasiid iti > > I suspect this is Vedic, because it is cited within a refutation of Vedic > scriptural authority. > > John Newman > New College > > > From magier at columbia.edu Sat Apr 5 22:12:23 1997 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 17:12:23 -0500 Subject: [Nancy Braxton : "Domestic Conflict:South Asian Perspectives" Exhibit & Events (fwd)] Message-ID: <161227029405.23782.820071539173383432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was asked to forward this event announcement to your mailing list or listserv. If you have further questions or comments, please contact event organizers directly (at addresses listed below). Thank you. David Magier ================================ The Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center at Columbia University invites you to join us for a reception inaugurating a spring program on Domestic Conflict: Images of Brokenness, Strategies for Healing. South Asian Perspectives with an exhibit featuring the works of artist Malati Narsu 4:00-5:30 pm, Friday, April 11, 1997 Columbia University Lehman Library, West Reading Room International Affairs Bldg.(IAB), 3rd Floor 420 West 118th Street, New York, NY USA This recent series of drawings and paintings by Malati Narsu portrays hardships of women in India, bringing practices such as female infanticide, sati, dowry deaths, child marriage and prostitution to public attention. An artist from Long Island, New York living in the US since 1959, Narsu combines a background in Indian art with Western influences. Her works have been shown at numerous venues throughout the greater New York area, most recently at the American Museum of Natural History (1996). Malati Narsu will be present at the reception on the 11th and will speak from 4:45-5:00 pm about the inspiration for her works on domestic conflict. Light refreshments will be served! * * * In conjunction with the exhibit, the Dharam Hinduja Center, together with Asian American Center (Queens College), The Asian Journal, Asian/Pacific American Awareness Month, Barnard Center for Research on Women, Center for the Study of Human Rights, Domestic Violence Project(Columbia Law School), Hindu Students Organization, Isma'ili Muslim Students Association,Indian Progressive Study Group, Jain Forum, Manavi, Organization of Pakistani Students, Pragati, Inc, Sakhi for South Asian Women, South Asian Law Students Association, and Club Zamana (South Asian Students Organization) are pleased to sponsor the following events: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 Broken Promises: 5 -7:00 pm Reflections on Field Work and Domestic Violence in Rajasthan 1134 IAB a talk by MAXINE K. WEISGRAU, Ph.D., Anthropology Dept., Barnard College Wednesday, April 23, 1997 A Life Without Fear 4-5:00 pm a 23-minute docu-drama exploring domestic violence in the South Asian 1512 IAB immigrant community, presented by Sakhi for South Asian Women followed by discussion 5-7 pm Addressing Domestic Violence in the South Asian Immigrant Community (tea and light refreshments) a roundtable discussion moderated by MADHULIKA KHANDEWAL, Ph.D., Director, Asian American Center, Queens College, with SHAMITA DAS DASGUPTA, Ph.D., Psychology Dept., Rutgers University RAMKUMAR S. IYER, MSW, CSW, Elmhurst Hospital ANITA SINHA, Senior, Barnard College PREMA VORA, Program Director, Sakhi for South Asian Women SUJATA WARRIOR, Ph.D., NY Office of Prevention of Domestic Violence Thursday, April 24, 1997 Neither Coal Nor Ashes 5-6:30 pm a 23-minute documentary film exposing the "accidental" kitchen stove 1134 IAB deaths of Pakistani women, followed by a talk by KAUSER SHEIKH,Activist, Simorgh: Women's Resource & Publication Centre, Lahore Friday, April 25, 1997 When Women Unite 5-7:00 pm an 80-minute film merging feminism, politics, and democracy on one 1101 IAB of the most extraordinary social uprisings of modern India followed by discussion Wednesday, April 30, 1997 When This Day is Named 5-7:00 pm an hour-long film on laws re domestic violence and rape in Pakistan 1512 IAB followed by discussion Monday, May 5, 1997 V for ... 8:00 pm a dance drama on violence performed by MALLIKA SARABHAI, Miller Theatre internationally-acclaimed Indian dancer, (Broadway at 116th St.) directed by JOHN MARTIN For further information, contact the Dharam Hinduja Center, 1102 IAB, 854-5300, dhirc at columbia.edu. From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sat Apr 5 16:18:06 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 18:18:06 +0200 Subject: please travel back in time and don't read my previous message! Message-ID: <161227029401.23782.4694014617707078254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: >> isn't there a setting so that replying to a message on the >> list would mean replying privately to the poster? > >Yes, INDOLOGY could be set up this way (I believe), but we've had straw >polls in the past, and most people have said they prefer it the way it is. And now I can see why: it's a lot more entertaining this way. From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Apr 6 02:59:50 1997 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 20:59:50 -0600 Subject: Nietzschegati Message-ID: <161227029408.23782.10456571866374175496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The source is most likely P. Deussen, an acquiantance of Nietzche's (he was also friends w/ Schopenhauer, who was well-read in matters Indological). See Halbfass' _India and Europe_ (1988) and Raymond Schwab's _The Oriental Renaissance_ (1984 [1950]). (There's also a book by Mistry, _Nietzsche and Buddhism: Prolegomenon to a Comparative Study_ (1981) which is probably the most comprehensive source.) Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago From a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Sun Apr 6 00:31:39 1997 From: a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 02:31:39 +0200 Subject: Nietzschegati Message-ID: <161227029407.23782.14655961411262187381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In section 27 of 'Beyond Good and Evil', Nietzsche uses the? >Sanskrit terms 'Gangasrotagati','Kurmagati', and 'Mandukagati', to describe >different types of living and thought. >Can anyone tell me where he might have read these expressions and in what >context they're used?? > Nietzsches source could be Schopenhauer, who knew the Sanskrit-Literature and loved the Bhagavadgita. And Nietzsche knew Schopenhauer very well. So I can imagine that he had this terms from Schopenhauer. In 'Beyond Good and Evil' there are some polemic sections against Schopenhauer. Perhaps this section is one of them. Good luck, Arash *************** Arash Zeini e-mail: a2795850 at smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de Tel./Fax: 0049-221-4303060 *************** From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 6 12:57:21 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 08:57:21 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029410.23782.1400274505282857958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with a discussion of classical Sanskrit accent, it may be remembered that classical Sanskrit as spoken today has regionally distinctive styles. Just as one can identify a person's region within India from his/her Indian English, one can do the same from the style of spoken Sanskrit. As someone who was extensively trained in a Sanskrit-speaking institution in Pune, I remember that we had a few teachers from the region of Karnataka, and their spoken Sanskrit accent was distinctly different from our other Maharashtrian teachers. While we admired our teachers from Karnataka, we were not encouraged to follow them in their "accent". The different "accents" in the regional modes of Sanskrit pronunciation were evident in all-India events such as Panditasabhas, Kavisammelanas, and in the various inter-university Sanskrit debate competitions. The most important feature I have always noticed, and is imperceptibly also part of my own personal pronunciation, is that the Sentence intonation of modern Sanskrit is almost exclusively connected with one's regional language. The same is true in the phonetic quality of vowels and consonants. The gap between dentals and retroflexes gets wider as one travels to the south. Similarly, one can notice the differences in the pronunciation of a sound like .n, which appears more as a flapped sound in the region of Gujarat, while it becomes more firmly stop-like in the region of Maharashtra. The visarga and anusvaara are also pronounced distinctively in different regions. What I find most interesting in Witzel's comments is the possibility of the regional accents interfering in the pronunciation of Vedic accents. Since the pronunciation of a text like the Rigveda is identifiably different in Maharashtra from let us say Tamilnadu, one needs to objectively investigate the relationship of the regional accent of Sanskrit and its impact on the recitation of Vedic accented texts. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From dicko at netletter.com Sun Apr 6 15:46:27 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 11:46:27 -0400 Subject: Other Festivals Too. Message-ID: <161227029416.23782.13280194766451287103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jayabarathi writes: >At present there are two systems of calender being usedin India. >One is the SauramAna or Solar. THhe other one is the ChandramAna or Lunar. It should perhaps be noted for those who don't already know that there are several variations on the lunar calendar. Most importantly, in South India and Bengal, months begin on the new moon while in other regions months generally begin on the full moon. The lunar month names vary from language to language, but it's quite common for a month starting on the full moon to have the same name in one region as a month starting on a new moon in another (possibly nearby) region. I've noticed that this has introduced some inconsistencies and errors in modern festival calendars, especially those collected for travelers by western companies. It's also something to watch out for when doing historical research, since sources often don't clearly specify which calendar system they are using when lunar dates are given. --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 6 19:42:14 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 15:42:14 -0400 Subject: Concept of text and its ramifications for Indian pre-history Message-ID: <161227029424.23782.13943317534972754197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My initial investigation of two related terms nUl in Tamil and sUtra in Sanskrit led me to discovering important conclusions regarding Indian pre-history. The list members have seen the progress of this work in the various postings of mine. Here are my final findings as of now. We have to consider three pairs of words. The Tamil/Dravidian and Sanskrit/Indo-Aryan equivalents are shown below. no. Tamil/Dravidian Sanskri/Indo-Aryan ---- --------------------- ------------------------ 1. nuval(nUl) sUtra 2. pA ta?ntu 3. panuval ta?ntra When the Aryans came to India, they could have developed different metaphors to denote verse or text, as their western counterparts did, from words meaning ?to weave? as George Thompson had noted. But the words which have come to dominate the Indo-Aryan languages in the sense of text are ?tantra? and ?sUtra?. The Sanskrit ?ta?ntu? means ?warp?, and Sanskrit ?sUtra? means ?thread? or ?text?. The Dravidian ?nuval? can mean ?thread? as well as ?utterance/praise/sound/call/song/text?. It is derived from a compound meaning ?web of the spider?. The Dravidian pA from the root ?pA? meaning ?to stretch, to spread? means ?warp of a loom? as well as ?verse/song?. Dravidian ?panuval?, apparently a compound of the other two means ?warp thread/warp, song, book?. The first two Dravidian words have been traced to proto-Dravidian. The Sanskrit word ?ta?ntu? comes from a root ?tan? meaning ?to stretch? and is used to refer to the warp of the loom in Rig Veda, the earliest Indo-Aryan text in India. We also find that ?ta?ntu?, the warp, is beginning to be used in the sense of ?song/praise? in the Rig Veda. In the tenth maNDala, we also find ?ta?ntra? which is also derived from ?tan?/?ta?ntu? used synonymously with ?ta?ntu?. Only later ?sUtra? comes to be used in the sense of text. The word ?tantra? denoting the (secret) texts or spells also means ?web of the spider? later. The adoption of ?ta?ntu? and ?ta?ntra?as the word to mean ?warp? parallels the Dravidian adoption of ?pA? and ?panuval?. Since, in the Indo-European languages, the word ?warp? seems to come from a word meaning ?to throw?, the ?woof? or ?weft? comes from a word meaning ?to weave? and ?thread? comes from a word meaning ?to turn?, it seems probable the Sanskrit terms are translations of Dravidian concepts into Indo-Aryan. (If there is an Indo-European tradition of using the 'warp' as the basis for text, then we may have to re-work the hypothesis.) According to Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages, the Sanskrit word ?sUtra? is derived from the root ?sU? meaning ?to provide, bring forth, bear young? or possibly from the root ?sIv? meaning ?to sew?. Till now, the usage of ?sUtra?, meaning ?text? has been explained, by scholars such as Scharfe, as having been taken from the image of weaving, i.e., a ?thread stretched out lengthwise as a warp to be crossed by the woof?. But if this had been the case, then the authors of these texts already had the warp thread par excellence in ?ta?ntu?or ?ta?ntra?. Why was ?ta?ntu? or ?ta?ntra? not used to denote the texts? The reason must have been that it was already used to refer to the tantric texts which must have been negatively viewed by the author/authors of the ?sUtra? texts. So when they looked for an alternate word, there was already a Dravidian word for texts which also meant ?thread?. So they probably used the Indo-Aryan equivalent of the Dravidian word which also had a general sense of ?production?. (Note that nuval includes meanings of producing thread as well as sound.) When it comes to ?ta?ntra?, it was probably coined by the pre-Vedic Aryans or Vratyas whose culture was a syncretistic one composed of Aryan as well as Dravidian elements. In such a situation, it is possible that they adopted the Dravidian concept of ?warp? being used in the sense of ?verse? or ?text? and so adopted ?ta?ntu? and ?tantra?. As the intrusion of the pre-vedic elements into the Vedic culture progressed, these terms entered the Vedic culture also. The disapproval of ?tantric? culture probably led to the adoption of the synonymous ?sUtra?. These findings suggest that the interaction of Dravidians and Aryans (earlier with pre-Vedic Aryans and later with Vedic Aryans) was probably at a much higher intellectual/literary level than had been assumed until now. The association of ?ta?ntra? with pre-Vedic society can also be inferred from the term for Vedas in Tamil, ?maRai? or ?maRainUl? meaning secret or secret texts. Till now, it has been believed that the terms which should have been applied to the upanishads came to be applied for the Vedic hymns . But the Classical Tamil texts refer to chanting/singing of ?maRai? in public. I do not think the upanishads were sung or chanted in public. So this term, I feel, probably goes back to the pre-Vedic days. But the Dravidian concept of ?nUl? should have had no concept of secrecy. That is why they had to use the modifier ?maRai?. The concept of secrecy with respect to texts should have developed among the Vratyan practitioners of ?ta?ntra?. Thus we have three sets of terms or symbols corresponding to three cultural streams in India. For texts, nuval/nUl for the Dravidian, t?antra for the pre-Vedic Aryan, and sUtra for the Vedic Aryan. Similarly, in religion, we have ?murukan? symbolizing Dravidian, ?ziva? signifying the pre-Vedic Aryan, and ?indra/viSNu? signifying the Vedic Aryan religious streams. It was no coincidence that in order to reconcile the three, ?murukan? was related to ?ziva? as son and to ?indra? and ?viSNu? as son-in-law. Of course, ?murukan? was made to teach the ?praNava?, the utterance par excellence, to ?ziva?. This leads to interesting possibilities, was the concept of a refined/well-made language, (and the associated concept of lower language), and sophisticated grammatical analysis due to the Indo-European/Indo-Aryan/Sanskrit genius per se? Or could they also be due to earlier impulses which have also manifested in Dravidian/Tamil? Compare the parallels in Sanskrit-centamiz, Prakrit-koTuntamiz, (the Tamil diglossia), the grammatical traditions with meta-languages as Sanskrit and Tamil, the importance of grammar for the Jains as evidenced by Tamil tradition, etc. One may have to take a whole new look at Indian cultural history. Regards. S. Palaniappan From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 6 19:54:44 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 15:54:44 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029426.23782.15463080440720293819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pronunciation of Sanskrit by Marathi Pandits of today basically works within the range of Marathi phonology. It should however be noted that there is a range of sophistication and nuances within the Marathi Sanskrit pronunciation. Except for a few determined individuals who maintain a conscious distinction between "s and .s, most Marathi Pundits pronounce both of these sounds as "s. Thus the distinction between s and "s is maintained, but not between "s and .s. The visarga is almost universally pronounced as a voiced h, followed by an echo of the previous vowel. The short vowels preceding consonant clusters get stressed. In general, the sentence intonation of Sanskrit in Maharashtra follows that of Marathi. During my college days in Pune, I translated a children's play from Marathi into Sanskrit, staying as close in vocabulary and word order to Marathi as was possible within the rules of Sanskrit. When the play was staged by the children, they first learned to do the play in Marathi, and at some time the language change was carried out. The children pronounced Sanskrit sentences with exactly the same intonation. This was not just perceived as children's Sanskrit, but was perceived very favorably by the judges, who awarded this children's group the first prize, while the "Saakuntala presented by myself and my college classmates was awarded a second prize. Within the range of Marathi/Sanskrit pronunciation, however, there are many interesting areas of explicit vernacularization of Sanskrit. I have covered some of these in my article "Features of Priestly Sanskrit" in the volume "Ideology and Status of Sanskrit" edited by Jan E.M. Houben, Brill, 1996. All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > This's a thread which originated on VYAKARAN and for some reason > was redirected by Madhav Deshpande to Indology. Am I correct in > assuming most of the people on Indology are also on VYAKARAN? > (In any case if you haven't seen Michael Witzel's post Madhav > Deshpande had been responding to, just ask me for it in email) > > Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > >The most important feature I have always > >noticed, and is imperceptibly also part of my own personal pronunciation, > >is that the Sentence intonation of modern Sanskrit is almost exclusively > >connected with one's regional language. > > Then, putting this together with Michael Witzel's statement about > the source of the "classical Sanskrit accent rule," that it apparently > could be due to Buehler and have originated in his observation of > the practice of Marathi pandits [I am paraphrasing what I think MW > said; I hope it is correct], can we conclude that rule is nothing > but the accent rule of Marathi? Do you recognize any Marathi accent > rule in there? > > Cheers > Jacob > > > > From bpj at netg.se Sun Apr 6 14:34:27 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 16:34:27 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029413.23782.14890521352227198792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This question of Sanskrit accents in different parts of India rises the question what model a western student should adopt: a theoretical "scientifically reconstructed" accent -- more or less that of P^a.nini i.e. --, the modern Indian accent closest to this ideal (Maharashtra?), the accent of their Indic teacher, or allow for a greater degree of influence from their _western_ substrate languages? The latter was AFAIK the rule among western scholars a generation or so back, and given the fact that Sanskrit is for us mainly a _read_ language, it may have some justification, as long as students are aware of the fact and the manner that their pronunciation differs from that of P^a.nini and of modern Indians -- especially the latter is often lacking. Admittedly this would give a variation of pronunciation across Europe no less than across India. I as a Swede have no trouble distinguishing retroflex and dental sounds (Swedish, and Norwegian, even has a distinction between palatal, retroflex and dental sibilants!), while vowel length is a crux -- in Swedish vowel length is correlated with stress, so that I tend to stress every long vowel, with a main stress falling on the last one of a word even if it is final, since the quantity of the last syllable often carries important grammatical information. A Swede will also pronounce anusv^ara as [N] (velar nasal!) and visarga as [x]. By contrast a Finn will have no problem with quantity or visarga, but their language contains only one sibilant, no voicing distinction, only one series of apicals and has severe restrictions on consonant clusters -- incidentally Finnish differs from other European languages much the same way Tamil differs from IA languages! English, German, Spanish, French, Italian, Russian, Polish, Czech, etc. would each present its own modification/deviation from a P^a.ninian standard. Aspiration is of course a problem for almost ALL Europeans! My question is: given the variation that is a fact of life in India (not to mention Tibetan -- vajra -> /bendzra/! -- or Thai pronunciation of Sanskrit), is it REALLY worth the while to try to impose an elusive standard of "correctness" on western students (unless they be phoneticians)? Isn't it better to aim at "local" pronunciation standards that still allow for good scansion of verse and hilights grammatically important contrasts like final long vowels? The phonetician and the pedagogue (sp?) in me have fought their battles over this... How, btw, do Anglophones pronounce visarga? Does "du.hka" come out as /dUhUka/, as /dUxka/ or as P^aliesque /dUkha/? I guess it would vary. And how do Francophones and other Romance speakers handle /h/ and /.h/? Regards, Philip Jonsson (aka "V^ag^i;svara/Ngaq-dbang" :-) At 14:05 6.4.1997 +0100, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > In connection with a discussion of classical Sanskrit accent, it >may be remembered that classical Sanskrit as spoken today has regionally >distinctive styles. Just as one can identify a person's region within >India from his/her Indian English, one can do the same from the style of >spoken Sanskrit. As someone who was extensively trained in a >Sanskrit-speaking institution in Pune, I remember that we had a few >teachers from the region of Karnataka, and their spoken Sanskrit accent >was distinctly different from our other Maharashtrian teachers. While we >admired our teachers from Karnataka, we were not encouraged to follow them >in their "accent". The different "accents" in the regional modes of >Sanskrit pronunciation were evident in all-India events such as >Panditasabhas, Kavisammelanas, and in the various inter-university >Sanskrit debate competitions. The most important feature I have always >noticed, and is imperceptibly also part of my own personal pronunciation, >is that the Sentence intonation of modern Sanskrit is almost exclusively >connected with one's regional language. The same is true in the phonetic >quality of vowels and consonants. The gap between dentals and retroflexes >gets wider as one travels to the south. Similarly, one can notice the >differences in the pronunciation of a sound like .n, which appears more as >a flapped sound in the region of Gujarat, while it becomes more firmly >stop-like in the region of Maharashtra. The visarga and anusvaara are >also pronounced distinctively in different regions. What I find most >interesting in Witzel's comments is the possibility of the regional >accents interfering in the pronunciation of Vedic accents. Since the >pronunciation of a text like the Rigveda is identifiably different in >Maharashtra from let us say Tamilnadu, one needs to objectively >investigate the relationship of the regional accent of Sanskrit and its >impact on the recitation of Vedic accented texts. > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande From bpj at netg.se Sun Apr 6 14:34:35 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 16:34:35 +0200 Subject: Call for co-op: webpage on different standards of transcription/transliteration Message-ID: <161227029414.23782.3377537860279485721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Apologies to those that get more than one copy of this message!) Dear friends, I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. Any suggestions and/or pointers to existing standards/proposals/existing habits are most welcome. ALL languages and scripts are of interest. Thank you, Philip Jonsson From HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net Sun Apr 6 18:10:40 1997 From: HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 18:10:40 +0000 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029421.23782.16824503702448743870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ABHI_5R.TXT URL: From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 6 17:03:21 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 19:03:21 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029417.23782.14003191637702781755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This's a thread which originated on VYAKARAN and for some reason was redirected by Madhav Deshpande to Indology. Am I correct in assuming most of the people on Indology are also on VYAKARAN? (In any case if you haven't seen Michael Witzel's post Madhav Deshpande had been responding to, just ask me for it in email) Madhav Deshpande wrote: >The most important feature I have always >noticed, and is imperceptibly also part of my own personal pronunciation, >is that the Sentence intonation of modern Sanskrit is almost exclusively >connected with one's regional language. Then, putting this together with Michael Witzel's statement about the source of the "classical Sanskrit accent rule," that it apparently could be due to Buehler and have originated in his observation of the practice of Marathi pandits [I am paraphrasing what I think MW said; I hope it is correct], can we conclude that rule is nothing but the accent rule of Marathi? Do you recognize any Marathi accent rule in there? Cheers Jacob From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 6 17:49:44 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 19:49:44 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029419.23782.18136265546123851525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't normally post corrections to my English mistakes but this one could lead to misunderstading. I wrote: >Then, putting this together with Michael Witzel's statement about >the source of the "classical Sanskrit accent rule," that it apparently >could be due to Buehler and have originated in his observation of >the practice of Marathi pandits [I am paraphrasing what I think MW >said; I hope it is correct] [...] I meant "I hope this [how I had just paraphrased MW] is correct", and of course not "I hope it [what MW had said] is correct". Cheers Jacob ps: and while I'm at it, I wrote >(In any case if you haven't seen Michael Witzel's post Madhav >Deshpande had been responding to, just ask me for it in email) Of course I meant, "the post Madhav Deshpande was responding to". From jehms at globalxs.nl Sun Apr 6 20:40:07 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 21:40:07 +0100 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029423.23782.6751789216838804945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 06-apr-97 schreef Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless : >This question of Sanskrit accents in different parts of India rises the >question what model a western student should adopt: a theoretical >"scientifically reconstructed" accent -- more or less that of P^a.nini i.e. >--, the modern Indian accent closest to this ideal (Maharashtra?), the >accent of their Indic teacher, or allow for a greater degree of influence >from their _western_ substrate languages? how about the meaning of the word 'saNskRta'? shouldn't we strive for one (re)constructed standard of decent pronounciation and rise above our indian or western prakRta? regards erik hoogcarspel From bpj at netg.se Sun Apr 6 20:59:39 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 97 22:59:39 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029427.23782.18016789980247944829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:49 6.4.1997 +0100, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: >Op 06-apr-97 schreef Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless : > >>This question of Sanskrit accents in different parts of India rises the >>question what model a western student should adopt: a theoretical >>"scientifically reconstructed" accent -- more or less that of P^a.nini i.e. >>--, the modern Indian accent closest to this ideal (Maharashtra?), the >>accent of their Indic teacher, or allow for a greater degree of influence >>from their _western_ substrate languages? > >how about the meaning of the word 'saNskRta'? shouldn't we strive for one >(re)constructed standard of decent pronounciation and rise above our indian or >western prakRta? Maybe we SHOULD, but could those of us who are not phoneticians? And is it worth it with a read-only language? Every language teacher sometimes ponder the question which is most reasonable: striving for a goal of perfection that some or most students cannot attain, or striving for an accent that, while "foreign" causes as little misunderstanding and embarrasment as possible? After all even the benefit of a native teacher is not as efficient as immersion, and what immersion is possible with Sanskrit? BTW: this is mostly not a question of pr^ak.rta versus sa.msk.rta, but of mapping one sa.msk.rta -- Standard English, Standard Swedish, Standard Dutch, Standard Marathi, Standard Tamil or whatever -- onto another, alien, sa.msk.rta, viz. ^Aryabh^a.sa, and of what level of perfection/accomodation best serves the purpose at hand. I KNOW what several native English dialects sound like, but my actual performance is a continuum dependent on several factors. Since I've stayed in Canada I am able to sound Canadian enough to fool even some US people, not to mention Brits, Aussies and non-Anglos, but mostly I have no reason to try doing so: I don't want to pass myself off as a Canadian, only to make myself understood! Regards, Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 6 22:00:39 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 00:00:39 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029429.23782.3137393064907136346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: >>how about the meaning of the word 'saNskRta'? shouldn't we strive for one >>(re)constructed standard of decent pronounciation and rise above our indian or >>western prakRta? > >Maybe we SHOULD, but could those of us who are not phoneticians? And is it >worth it with a read-only language? Every language teacher sometimes ponder >the question which is most reasonable: striving for a goal of perfection >that some or most students cannot attain, or striving for an accent that, >while "foreign" causes as little misunderstanding and embarrasment as >possible? Aren't you confusing the question of what quality of prononunciation to accept from a student, which is one thing, and the question of what model to propose, which is another thing? Arguing over whether to accept "Marathi Sanskrit" or "Reconstructed Sanskrit" as a model can to some extent make sense to me, but can it ever make sense to aim at "French Sanskrit" or "Swedish Sanskrit"? Can "French Sanskrit" or "Swedish Sanskrit" be targets or can they only be something one unwillingly accepts because there are higher priorities and time is limited? It's not clear to me which of the two you are saying here. Incidentally I think it would be interesting to hear from people who are teaching Sanskrit, whether the question of the prononciation model is an issue for them, how they have settled it (if they have), how much importance they attach to oral proficiency and a good pronun- ciation (if at all), how much importance and interest their students appear to attach to those questions, etc. From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 7 04:50:03 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 00:50:03 -0400 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227029431.23782.16167678365232579816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Dominique Thillaud for organizing this Indology list but for which I would not have been able to solve the problem of tracing the history of the 'text' in India, at least to my satisfaction. Without this 'web' of persons interested in Indology, solutions and insights like this may not have come about this soon, if ever. Distance, time, accessibility to information, and areal specialization would have presented considerable obstacles. I would also like to thank all those who contributed with information. Regards. S. Palaniappan From rmanring at indiana.edu Mon Apr 7 13:21:33 1997 From: rmanring at indiana.edu (Rebecca Manring) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 08:21:33 -0500 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029441.23782.6940090866856930483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of any material, outside of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition, which mentions Madhavendra Puri? I'm interested in seeing how any of the other sampradayas view and treat this shadowy figure who may represent a link between southern and northern Vaisnavism. Thanks - Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University From dicko at netletter.com Mon Apr 7 12:22:46 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 08:22:46 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029439.23782.59445234087957351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >And is it worth it with a read-only language? Sanskrit may not be conversational anymore, but let's hope it never becomes a read-only language! It would be a sad day when the Vedic oral tradition vanishes completely. >...only to make myself understood! The primary use of Sanskrit pronounciation today is not to make oneself understood, but to preserve what is almost certainly the planet's oldest language with a living oral tradition. Any efforts to identify how pronounciation varies regionally, and how it may vary from its historical pronounciation, is worthwhile in my book. Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you refrain from, as the South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu Mon Apr 7 13:27:40 1997 From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 08:27:40 -0500 Subject: Software for preparing a bibliography Message-ID: <161227029442.23782.17567239233191204207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, I am looking for software for compiling an annotated bibliography. If any of you know such software and let me know the name of the software/company name I would really appreciate it. Thanks. Kamal All the best, kamal From imj at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 7 16:45:25 1997 From: imj at u.washington.edu (South Asia Section) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 09:45:25 -0700 Subject: Proscribed publications Message-ID: <161227029451.23782.16532779554072302185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several major libraries with important South Asia collections, including the University of Washington Libraries, also own the accompaning microfilm set of the publications listed. Document 1 Author: India Office Library and Records. Title: Publications proscribed by the Government of India : a catalogue of the collections in the India Office Library and Records and the Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books, British Library Reference Division / edited by Graham Shaw and Mary Lloyd. Pub. Info.: London : British Library, 1985. Phy Descript: xv, 203 p. : ill. ; 25 cm. Notes: Includes index. @. LC Subject: Prohibited-books -- Bibliography. India -- Imprints. Other Author: Shaw, Graham. Lloyd, Mary. British Library. Dept. of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books. Status: Suzzallo General Stacks Z3208.P6 I52 1985 CHECK THE SHELVES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ South Asia Section Irene Joshi, M.L.S. South Asia Librarian University of Washington Libraries Box 352900 Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900 U.S.A. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~souasia/ From ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Mon Apr 7 04:59:23 1997 From: ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Shin Young Yoo) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 09:59:23 +0500 Subject: Q: sa.mjiiva~nasamaadhi Message-ID: <161227029430.23782.11405603651760767817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could anyone explain a qurious term "sa.mjiiva~nasamaadhi", referring to the after-death state of J~naneSvara. Where and how the term was used? Thanks young From deepak at ksu.edu Mon Apr 7 15:13:25 1997 From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 10:13:25 -0500 Subject: Software for preparing a bibliography Message-ID: <161227029448.23782.16761329672530564761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Kamal R. Adhikary wrote: > Dear all, > > I am looking for software for compiling an annotated bibliography. > If any of you know such software and let me know the name of the > software/company name I would really appreciate it. Thanks. > Kamal, The software 'PROCITE' will work for you. Check out the complete details at http://www.risinc.com/ good luck, d e e p a k g u p t a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 7 14:25:31 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 10:25:31 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029444.23782.8145581851624091805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-07 09:13:34 EDT, g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (Georg von Simson) writes: << Patrick Olivelle wrote on 04-04-97: >We really do not know the type of loom that forms the basis of the >metaphor. It appears that the weaver was located not behind the warp (as in >modern hand-looms) but on the side where she (and it is mostly women!) can >pass the shuttle back and forth. I have seen one reference that speaks of a >pair of women weaving (can't think of the source); if so there may have >been two women on either side of the loom passing the shuttle back and >forth The two weaving women at the loom are mentioned in the year allegory of the Paushyaparvan of the Mahabharata (Mbh. 1.3.147,151,167,172). >> Atharva Veda 10.8.42 also mentions a pair of maidens weaving. Whitney's translation reads, " A certain pair of maidens, of diverse form, weave, betaking themselves to it, the six-pegged web; the one draws forth the threads (ta'ntu), the other sets [them]; they wrest not off (apa-vrj), they go not to an end." Regards. S. Palaniappan From bpj at netg.se Mon Apr 7 08:26:58 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 10:26:58 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029435.23782.285560768733888962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:00 6.4.1997 +0100, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >B.Philip.Jonsson wrote: > >>>how about the meaning of the word 'saNskRta'? shouldn't we strive for one >>>(re)constructed standard of decent pronounciation and rise above our indian >>>or >>>western prakRta? >> >>Maybe we SHOULD, but could those of us who are not phoneticians? And is it >>worth it with a read-only language? Every language teacher sometimes ponder >>the question which is most reasonable: striving for a goal of perfection >>that some or most students cannot attain, or striving for an accent that, >>while "foreign" causes as little misunderstanding and embarrasment as >>possible? > >Aren't you confusing the question of what quality of prononunciation >to accept from a student, which is one thing, and the question of >what model to propose, which is another thing? Arguing over whether >to accept "Marathi Sanskrit" or "Reconstructed Sanskrit" as a model >can to some extent make sense to me, but can it ever make sense to >aim at "French Sanskrit" or "Swedish Sanskrit"? Can "French Sanskrit" >or "Swedish Sanskrit" be targets or can they only be something one >unwillingly accepts because there are higher priorities and time is >limited? It's not clear to me which of the two you are saying here. OK, let's put the question this way: given that most students will effect a broken pronunciation, should one allow _any and all deviations_, or should we aim for a pronunciation that, while broken, preserves as much as possible of the functionally most loaded distinctions, even if it does so in a non-native manner? To take two examples from experience as Swedish-as-second-language instructor: (1) if the students cannot make a distinction between dental and retroflex consonants, should one allow them to conflate them, or should they be encouraged to pronounce [r]+dental where a native Swede has retroflexes (in Swedish retroflex consonants and /r/+dental are in complementary distribution, though /r/+dental clusters are only used by those who have a uvular /r/ [R]). (2) Should a student be allowed to conflate the Swedish /%/ (High front to mid central lax rounded vowel [Yw]<>[U+]) with Swedish /u/, which distinction carries high functional load, or encouraged to conflate /%/ with /y/ which carries a low functional low, or encouraged to conflate /%/ and /@/ (Low front to central rounded vowel), as some native dialects do although this distinction carries a considerable functional load -- a very real problem; incidentally Finnish, German and Turkish learners follow quite different spontaneous strategies here! A parallel in Sanskrit is the distinction of long final vowels: should students be encouraged to stress these, to preserve this functionally rather highly loaded distinction? >Incidentally I think it would be interesting to hear from people >who are teaching Sanskrit, whether the question of the prononciation >model is an issue for them, how they have settled it (if they have), >how much importance they attach to oral proficiency and a good pronun- >ciation (if at all), how much importance and interest their students >appear to attach to those questions, etc. Yes, and how do they explain/describe the relevant distinctions to students without phonetic training? When I took part in a group learning Tibetan from tapes the problem wasn't with reproducing the tones accurately, but with understanding their distinctiveness and applying them correctly. And that in spite of Swedish being a tone language! The phonetically untrained are often not aware even of the distinctions of their own language. A fact, btw, that king Seidzong noted among Koreans half a millennium ago: people thought that the sounds of their language were those that the rhyme dictionaries described for Middle Chinese! I wonder if this applies wrt to Sanskrit in relation to modern Indic vernaculars also? Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From athr at loc.gov Mon Apr 7 14:35:53 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 10:35:53 -0400 Subject: Nietzschegati Message-ID: <161227029445.23782.10595954403921176710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Southern Asia Section is still involved in moving so I have no time to investigate this. But Nietzsche's knowledge of Indian culture was not limited to what he could find in Schopenhauer. His best friend, from student days, was Paul Deussen. Allen Thrasher On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Arash Zeini wrote: > >In section 27 of 'Beyond Good and Evil', Nietzsche uses the? > >Sanskrit terms 'Gangasrotagati','Kurmagati', and 'Mandukagati', to describe > >different types of living and thought. > >Can anyone tell me where he might have read these expressions and in what > >context they're used?? > > > > Nietzsches source could be Schopenhauer, who knew the Sanskrit-Literature > and loved the Bhagavadgita. > And Nietzsche knew Schopenhauer very well. So I can imagine that he had this > terms from Schopenhauer. > In 'Beyond Good and Evil' there are some polemic sections against > Schopenhauer. Perhaps this section is one of them. > > > Good luck, > Arash > > > *************** > Arash Zeini > e-mail: a2795850 at smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de > Tel./Fax: 0049-221-4303060 > *************** > > > From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 10:51:43 1997 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 11:51:43 +0100 Subject: Gita tapes - e-mail address] Message-ID: <161227029436.23782.13154205138064945402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Namaste Girish, I forgot to give you the e-mail address to Arsha Vidya Gurukulam. The mail could be directed to Swami Tadatmananda: ARSHA at epix.net or (sometimes I have trouble with that address and use the following) - ARSHA at peach.epix.net Also, Swami Viditatmananda has a set of tapes - "Vision of the Gita (An Overview)" which is a discourse of 20 of his talks (tapes) on the "bhagavadgiitaa". (I just found out about it on a new book/tape list that I have.) These can also be purchased from the Gurukulam. I hope I have been of help to you and the friends on the Indology List. dhanyavaada-priyaNkaracha, Mantralaura ------- End of forwarded message ------- From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Apr 7 19:00:30 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 12:00:30 -0700 Subject: Other Festivals Too. Message-ID: <161227029458.23782.972327784733491196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, JAYABARATHI wrote: [..] > The Medeival Tamils followed the Solar calender more faithfully. > In the Chola and Pandya inscriptions, we find that the Tamil months were actually named after the Signs of the > Zodiac. > When the Sun was in Aries i.e. MEsha, The corresponding Tamil month was called MEda NyAyiRu..Taurus(Rishabha) > =Idaba NyAyiRu.; Pisces = MIna NyAyiRu. The Malayalam calender still names its months meDam, iDavam etc. As in many other things, Malayalam speaking people have preserved more of this Tamil heritage than contemporary Tamil speakers. Vidyasankar From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Apr 7 12:29:29 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 13:29:29 +0100 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029438.23782.14784962048287037723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick Olivelle wrote on 04-04-97: >We really do not know the type of loom that forms the basis of the >metaphor. It appears that the weaver was located not behind the warp (as in >modern hand-looms) but on the side where she (and it is mostly women!) can >pass the shuttle back and forth. I have seen one reference that speaks of a >pair of women weaving (can't think of the source); if so there may have >been two women on either side of the loom passing the shuttle back and >forth The two weaving women at the loom are mentioned in the year allegory of the Paushyaparvan of the Mahabharata (Mbh. 1.3.147,151,167,172). Regards Georg v.Simson From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 7 17:30:00 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 13:30:00 -0400 Subject: Correction for thanks Message-ID: <161227029453.23782.10169167387313285734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should have thanked Dominik Wujastyk for starting the Indology list. I am sorry I got the names mixed up. Regards. S. Palaniappan From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Apr 7 18:28:06 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 14:28:06 -0400 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029455.23782.13510447425320431707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > [...] abhi is related to the > Greek preverb/preposition amphi < *(a)mbhi, compare Latin amb(i)Gallic ambi, > Old High German Umbi and the Albanian preposition mbi. The Sanskrit abhi > comes from a form with another accent pattern than the one in Greek and > Latin, .mbh'i, which in the regular manner of Sanskrit sound change becomes > abhi. (The .m is a vowel in Indo-European). The original concept related to > the word is "on both sides". Beekes, in his book on IE, reconstructs two different words, Hebhi and mbhi. Is this an idiosyncrasy or does it find some agreement among ohters? [I don't have Beekes' book at hand, so I am not sure what words he gives for Hebhi. I guess he does not like the same word to come out to mean `towards, against' as well as `on both sides'.] Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From francois at sas.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 15:09:07 1997 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 16:09:07 +0100 Subject: Nietzschegati Message-ID: <161227029447.23782.8285939647030800208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nietzsche's knowledge of Indology is briefly surveyed in the Penguin Indian edition of the *Laws of Manu* where you may find some useful references. Best wishes Francois Quiviger From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Mon Apr 7 18:00:50 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 17:00:50 -0100 Subject: Your Letter from Embassy of India (March 27, 1997) Message-ID: <161227029499.23782.12218706186468271729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a forwarded message, originally posted by Prof. Harman in RISA-L, which he also tried to post here, apparently without success, as he informed me. Robert Zydenbos ----- * Original date: 05 Apr 97 17:21:40 From: WILLIAM HARMAN Subject: Your Letter from Embassy of India (March 27, 1997) Honorable Siv S. Mukherjee Embassy of India 2107 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20008 Phone (202) 939-7041 Fax (202) 462-7276 I have received your letter describing the Indian Government's intention to bring out a Directory of Scholars of Hindi living abroad to commemorate India's 50th anniversary of independence. You describe your intentions to produce a directory with personal biographies, and photographs, as well as published works and awards and honors. You also indicate that if my interest is not in Hindi, you are not interested in including me in the directory. The message seems to me to be rather clear, and quite damaging to the notion that India is a nation concerned for the united cooperation of India's linguistic, cultural, and literary groups. I am a scholar of Tamil, and I regret that you have decided that the Tamil language, culture, and people are irrelevant or, at best, secondary to India's national celebration of independence. I would like to remind you that Tamilnadu has a long and remarkable history in terms of literary and religious contributions to national life in India. India is a great nation, but I would hate to see it diminished by parochial notions such as those claiming that any one linguistic, racial, geographic, or religious group carries the banner for the entire nation. I send this letter to academics on several lists concerned with the study of India. I encourage them not to participate in the project unless the project is enlarged to include all languages of India. Respectfully, William P. Harman Associate Professor of Religion DePauw University From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Apr 8 00:08:25 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 17:08:25 -0700 Subject: Call for co-op: webpage on different standards of transcription/transliteration] Message-ID: <161227029460.23782.12801170925767615837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Philip Jonsson wrote: > I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and > languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. Any suggestions > and/or pointers to existing standards/proposals/existing habits are most > welcome. ALL languages and scripts are of interest. I am nearly finished with a small paper on the transliteration of Urdu. It should be completed within the next week. If you'd be interested in it, please me mail me and I'll forward you a copy of the Postscript output. Regards, Anshuman Pandey From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Mon Apr 7 07:22:09 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 17:22:09 +1000 Subject: Call for co-op: webpage on different standards of transcription/transliteration Message-ID: <161227029433.23782.16556525876277793621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the webpage on various scripts, you might want to have a look at the following title which gives a considerable number of romanization tables etc. TITLE ALA-LC romanization tables : transliteration schemes for non- Roman scripts / approved by the Library of Congress and the American Library Association ; tables compiled and edited by Randall K. Barry. PUBLISHED Washington : Cataloging Distribution Service, Library of Congress, 1991. DESCRIPT vi, 216 p. : ill ; 28 cm. SUBJECT Transliteration. Oriental languages -- Transliteration. Semitic languages -- Transliteration. Slavic languages -- Transliteration. Cataloging of foreign language publications. NOTE "A new collection of transliteration schemes, the majority of which were previously published in the Library of Congress Cataloging service bulletin. The tables included in this edition supersede all of the ALA-LC romanization tables issued previously."--Introd. BIBLIOG. Includes bibliographical references and index. ADD TITLE Cataloging service bulletin. LC romanization tables. ISBN 0844407062 (pbk.) Royce Wiles On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 bpj at netg.se wrote: > (Apologies to those that get more than one copy of this message!) > > Dear friends, > > I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and > languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. Any suggestions > and/or pointers to existing standards/proposals/existing habits are most > welcome. ALL languages and scripts are of interest. > > Thank you, > > Philip Jonsson > > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Apr 7 16:42:15 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 18:42:15 +0200 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029450.23782.16114582655357508776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:15 6.04.97 BST, you wrote: > > >Attachment Converted: C:\INTERNET\EUDORA\ABHI_5R.TXT > In spite of the impressive number of examples in the paper, I am afraid that abhi has nothing to do with the root bhI (to fear). abhi is related to the Greek preverb/preposition amphi < *(a)mbhi, compare Latin amb(i)Gallic ambi, Old High German Umbi and the Albanian preposition mbi. The Sanskrit abhi comes from a form with another accent pattern than the one in Greek and Latin, .mbh'i, which in the regular manner of Sanskrit sound change becomes abhi. (The .m is a vowel in Indo-European). The original concept related to the word is "on both sides". Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 8 02:18:24 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 19:18:24 -0700 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029462.23782.15059082741533916636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Rebecca Manring wrote: > Does anyone know of any material, outside of the Gaudiya Vaisnava > tradition, which mentions Madhavendra Puri? I'm interested in seeing how > any of the other sampradayas view and treat this shadowy figure who may > represent a link between southern and northern Vaisnavism. > The short answer to this would be no, I think. Gaudiya Vaishnava sources also mention one Kesava Bharati, an advaita sannyAsin, as a guru of Caitanya. Puri and Bharati are daSanAmi suffixes, and are found almost always in names of advaita monks. Almost all monks from the dvaita tradition are Tirthas, which is also a daSanAmi suffix. And although the Gaudiyas claim affiliation with the dvaita tradition, the dvaitins are not very enthusiastic about acknowledging it. The dvaita monasteries do not seem to have any records of a Madhavendra Puri. Shrisha Rao, who is (or was) a member of this list, might elaborate. He and several ISKCON members participated in a rather heated discussion on the Usenet newsgroup soc.religion.hindu, about the Gaudiya school's affiliations with dvaita. All in all, the probability of there having been a dvaita monk named Madhavendra Puri is extremely low, if current usage and extant records of the dvaita maThas are any indication. If Madhavendra Puri was an advaita monk, then he does not represent southern Vaishnavism in any specific way. Of course, the SrIvaishNava school is ruled out in this case. Excluding Vallabha and Nimbarka, who were both south Indians, the one tangible medieval link between southern and northern vaishNavism is rAmAnanda, who was from the SrIvaishNava sampradAya. S. Vidyasankar From bpj at netg.se Mon Apr 7 18:44:36 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 20:44:36 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029456.23782.2593616975722154401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 13:28 7.4.1997 +0100, Dick Oliver wrote: >>And is it worth it with a read-only language? > >Sanskrit may not be conversational anymore, but let's hope it never becomes >a read-only language! It would be a sad day when the Vedic oral tradition >vanishes completely. Agree, but I was speaking specifically of the needs/requirements of WESTERN students. A bit of loud reading out of a book is normally the most oral their Sanskrit gets! >>...only to make myself understood! > >The primary use of Sanskrit pronounciation today is not to make oneself >understood, but to preserve what is almost certainly the planet's oldest >language with a living oral tradition. Any efforts to identify how >pronounciation varies regionally, and how it may vary from its historical >pronounciation, is worthwhile in my book. Agree again. I think this variation has a cultural identity value, and should not be rashly suppressed in favor of a "reconstructed" pronunciation having its origin in the head of western phoneticians. But as I said that was not the issue. >Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you refrain from, as the >South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." Assuredly, I'll stick to Swenglish, or even try English in worst cases! I was talking about what level of perfection would be worthwhile for loud reading, and only compared that to ESL use. In actual fact I, as a practicing Buddhist, recite in Sanskrit quite often -- preferring reasonably correct Sanskrit to crappy Tibetan, or English, until the day a Swedish translation of the relevant texts is available. Regards Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue Apr 8 02:22:21 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 21:22:21 -0500 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029463.23782.12798584180381465146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my own teaching, I constantly emphasize pronunciation as an important part of the language and am forever correcting it when I find it faulty. It seems to me that good pronunciation is one of the features that lifts Sanskrit from the unfair realm of "dead" language to the realm of the living. This also energizes the students and assists their precision in other aspects of the learning process. My own pronunciation is distinctly Maharashtrian, e.g. the j~n as dnya, etc. But I always explain the reginal variants and do not argue for any regional variety as inherently more *correct* (even if I privately feel differently). I write this as a non-Indian (though one who has spent more then 11 years in India, 7 of them in Pune), though one with a practiced appreciation for the beauties of the spoken Sanskrit word. I suspect I am not alone in this; indeed I'm under the impression that a growing number of Sanskrit teachers in *the academy* are emphasizing pronunciation to a greater degree than did our predecessors (whose awesome gu.nas I am not at all trying to deflate). Fred Smith University of Iowa From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue Apr 8 02:34:13 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 21:34:13 -0500 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029465.23782.156102567445830125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I assume that you are aware of the following, and only, article on the subject: Hardy, Friedhelm. 1974. Maadhavendra Purii: A Link Between Bengal Vaiavism and South Indian bhakti. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 1974: 23-41. I have also wondered if any material from other Vai.s.nava sa.mpradaayas is available, and have so far come up empty. Fred Smith Univ. of Iowa From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 8 01:49:49 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 21:49:49 -0400 Subject: sound.txt for the Bhagavad Gita Message-ID: <161227029475.23782.16495521615458093687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear folks, As I mentioned in my previous email, I have been playing with the "text to speech" feature of the new Macintosh system 7.6 to see if one can create a semblance of American approximation of the pronunciation of a Sanskrit text by manipulating the spellings. The "text to speech" feature provides different voices, and you can choose a voice such as Fred or Kathy to sound out the following text file. You need to read it with Simple Text. Remember, this is just for fun! But if my first year students can get this far in their pronunciation, I would not be unhappy. All the best, Madhav Deshpande FIRST TEN VERSES OF THE FIRST CHAPTER OF THE BHAGAVAD GITA Shreemud Bugguvud Geetau ... dhrutaraushtra oovaucha ... dharmakshaetrae coo roo kshaetrae samavaetau you you tsavuha. ... maumuckauhau paundduvaush chaaiva kimuckurvutta sunjaya. 1 ... sunjaya oovaucha ... drushtvau tou paundduvauneekum vyootdhum duuryoodhonus tudaa ... auchau ryum oupa sum gum ya raujau vuchunum upbraveet. 2 ... pashyaitaum paun do pootraunaum auchau rya ma hut team chum oom ... vyootdhaum drupadapootreina tava shishyeina dheamuttaa. 3 ... utra shoorau mahe shvausau bheemau rjunasammau you dhi ... you you dhauno virautush cha droopadush cha mahau rathaha. 4 ... dhrush tuckeitush chekitaunaha kaushiraujush cha veerya vaun ... poo roo jit koonti bhojush cha sheibyush cha nara poon gavaha. 5 ... yudhau mun yush cha vikraun ta oot tum oujaush cha veerya vaun ... sau bhud row drau puddeiyaush cha surva eva mahau rathau haa. 6 ... us mock um too vishishtau yey taun nibodha dvi jout tumma ... nau yuckau mumma sein yus ya sum jna-are tum taun braveemi tey. 7 ... bha vaun bheesh mush cha kar nush cha krupush cha sumittinjayaha ... ush vut thaummau veekar nush cha soumud duttis tuthaiva cha. 8 ... un yey cha bu how aha shoorau mud urt tey tyuckta jeevitau ha ... naunau shus tru pruha runau ha sur vey yood dha vishau radau ha. 9 ... upper yaup tum tud us mock um bullum bheesh mau bhi ruck shi tum ... per yaup tum tvi dum ey tey shaum bullum bhee mau bhi ruck shi tum. 10 From wgw at dnai.com Tue Apr 8 05:16:31 1997 From: wgw at dnai.com (wgw at dnai.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 22:16:31 -0700 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029469.23782.8671233547142286559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In my own teaching, I constantly emphasize pronunciation as an important >part of the language and am forever correcting it when I find it faulty. >It seems to me that good pronunciation is one of the features that lifts >Sanskrit from the unfair realm of "dead" language to the realm of the >living. This also energizes the students and assists their precision in >other aspects of the learning process. Hear!Hear! William G Wall, Ph.D. Institute for Vaisnava Studies Graduate Theological Union PO Box 11216 Berkeley CA 94712 (510) 849-8280 (office) email: wgw at dnai.com Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se From thillaud at unice.fr Mon Apr 7 20:43:08 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 22:43:08 +0200 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227029459.23782.11397472069107071379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:56 +0200 7/04/97, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: >I would like to thank Dominique Thillaud for organizing this Indology list I thank you in return for recalling my name, but I'm not Dominik Wujastyk! Friendly, Dominique (not perfect) Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Apr 8 03:08:33 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 23:08:33 -0400 Subject: Need Translation of Rig Veda Message-ID: <161227029466.23782.17584651790067608545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need the best available translation for Rig Veda or at least for RV 10.71. Can anybody suggest some publication or paper? (I have Ralph Griffith's work.) Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Apr 8 04:43:17 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 00:43:17 -0400 Subject: History of Grammar and Rig Veda 10.71 Message-ID: <161227029467.23782.8728090544817593515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rig Veda 10.71 is about 'vAc' or speech. 10.71.2 in Griffith's translation reads "Where, like men cleansing corn-flour in a cribble, the wise in spirit have created language, Friends see and recognize the marks of friendship: their speech retains the blessed sign imprinted." The actual Sanskrit text reads, "sa'ktum iva ti'taunA puna'nto ya'tra dhi'ra manasa vAcam a'krta I a'trA sa'hAyaH sakhiyA'ni jAnate bhadraiSaM lakSmi'r ni'hitAdhi vAc'i II" Here obviously signs of correct speech are intended, and may be grammar. I do not know if there is any discussion of this in Sanskrit scholarship. Has this hymn been ever discussed with respect to the history of the use of 'lakSaNa' as a term synonymous with 'vyAkaraNa'? I would appreciate any comments/references from the members. Regards S. Palaniappan From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 8 10:55:42 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 06:55:42 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029478.23782.860980902180020575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This was a message I had previously sent, but since it did not come back to me from Indology, I am not sure it was posted to the list: The whole discussion on the utility of the proper pronunciation of Sanskrit reminds me of a note I received from one of my terrified students a few years ago. This student wrote: "Professor Deshpande, you are the worst tormentor I have ever met. I don't understand why you insist on students reading this dead language aloud in class and why translate from English into Sanskrit. This language is dead, isn't it? Because of the fear that you will ask me to read something aloud in class and to translate something into Sanskrit, I lose my sleep the night before and the night after." Fortunately for her (and for me), the woman found some other class to switch to which she hoped would be less tormenting. I have not heard from her again. On the other hand, occasionally I get some enthusiastic first year students who want to learn nothing more than the holy chanting of OM. They are willing to sit on the floor and do this mystical chanting. As soon as they realize that Sanskrit is a language, and that it has a grammar which needs to be studied, they do not return to the class. Madhav Deshpande From pfilliozat at magic.fr Tue Apr 8 08:14:33 1997 From: pfilliozat at magic.fr (pfilliozat at magic.fr) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 08:14:33 +0000 Subject: History of Grammar and Rig Veda 10.71 Message-ID: <161227029472.23782.4977871788736330966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This remarkable stanza has been commented by Pata?jali in MahAbhA.sya, Paspa"sA,p. 4 (Kielhorn ed.). Pata?jali interprets it as a praise of VaiyAkara.na-s. Lak.smI is given by him as derived from the root lak.s but in the meaning of "shining,light". Regards Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Apr 8 16:21:15 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 10:21:15 -0600 Subject: Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227029482.23782.2099877006439043318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 4/7/97 Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley ******************************* On Apr. 4 & 5, there was a conference on Tamil organized by Prof. George Hart, Dept. of South & Southeast Asian studies. On the first day, there were several issues discussed regarding computerization of Tamil, putting digitized Tamil texts in the web, having mirror sites in California, Germany & Singapore, Unicode for Tamil characters, copyright issues, on-line dictionaries and bibliographies, putting the pictures of people who have contributed to furthering of Dravidian studies and making available pictures of Tamil art like temples, Chola bronzes in the web , etc ... were discussed. The second day was more of a cultural event open to students and others. In the morning, there were many Tamil students from schools like Stanford talking about their Tamil heritage. Vijaya Nagarajan who has written on Kolam - the floor decorations using rice flour - said that it takes years to resolve the question one invariably goes thru: "Who am I?" If South Asian children start out to explore, let us say, on North American Indians, their languages it will invariably lead at some point in time to know more about their own languages, literatures etc., I learnt a lot from observations by Vidya, Preetika, Jeyanthy Siva etal.,Hemant Parasuram wants to organize a National Youth conference. Dr. Jeyamohan chaired this panel and he gave insights into teaching tamil in US environment. It was great to see Mathurai Manickam (Brian Linebaugh) speak flawless Tamil, Carlos from Nicaragua, Keerthana Thangavelu and others interested in things tamil. In the afternoon, Professors spoke how they came to study Tamil. Prof. H. Schiffman on the importance of spoken language, materials available to learn tamil like videos, multimedia etc., He told "Don't just build millions-of-dollars temples only. Seeing to that Indian languages are taught in US campuses also will help your children".Dr. Norman Cutler, Univ. of Chicago told of his interests in Bhakthi poetry and KuRaL and gave an interesting recital of students and their research interests. Dr. Jim Ryan about his work on Ciivaka CintaamaNi and how deeply he is inspired by Indic cultures. I must mention meeting Dr. V. S. Rajam and Dr. Vasu Ranganathan. Of course, Mr. Thomas Malten from Koeln, Germany. Hope at least one more Professorship of Tamil studies is established in a Eastern university like UPenn or UMichigan. Also, for Telugu (Wisconsin?), Kannada & Malayalam. In the audience I saw many South Asia Professors like Drs. Murray B. Emeneau, Robert Goldman, Steven Poulos, Peter Claus etal., good friends like Kumar Kumarappan, Kaushalya Hart, Balakrishnan, What is interesting is I saw many people from computer industry and medical professions whose forefathers were great Tamil scholars eg., Sriganesh whose grandfather edited Tiruppugazh of Arunagirinathar with much effort, Senthil whose great grandfather J. M. Nallasavami Pillai wrote Studies in Saiva Siddhanta in early 1900s... Truly, I felt at home. Valluvar says in an immortal kuRaL uvappath thalaikkuuDi, uLLap pirithal - anaiththE pulavar thozhil. Is it not learned people's nature - to rejoice while in company, and to wonder "when shall we meet again?", in parting. Regards, N. Ganesan PS: *** Each time we learn a new language, we acquire a new personality, told by A. K. Ramanujan. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 8 17:25:42 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 10:25:42 -0700 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029486.23782.15939774561414581507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > At 03:24 97-04-08 BST, S. Vidyasankar wrote: > > > > > >Excluding Vallabha and Nimbarka, who were both south Indians, the one > >tangible medieval link between southern and northern vaishNavism is > >rAmAnanda, who was from the SrIvaishNava sampradAya. > > > I think that F. Hardy makes a rather good case that Madhavendra Puri was a > Southern Vaisnava with strong leanings to an emotional bhakti as exemplified > by the Alvars. Since clearly he was not a Madhva or a Srivaisnava, then what > was he? From the Caitanya-caritamrita, it is clear that Caitanya's group > included primarily both householder and sannyasi disciples of Madhavendra or > Isvara Puri. The Sannyasis were nearly all Puris or Bharatis. Kesava Bharati > also probably belonged to this group of Vaisnavas in Sankarite disguise. Which makes it all the more curious that the Gaudiyas explicitly claim a connection with the Madhvas, and strenuously deny any links to an advaita tradition. Any contemporary advaita monk would be labelled a Vaishnava or a Saiva or a Sakta in Sankarite disguise. For a few centuries, the followers of Sankara have tended to be inclusive, encouraging different kinds of karma and bhakti oriented religion. So, I don't think the designation "Vaishnava in Sankarite disguise" means much. Madhusudana Sarasvati was one such, and it becomes moot whether these people were Vaishnavas in Sankarite disguise, or Sankarites in Vaishnava disguise. That said, there have always been many southern Sankarite sannyasis who are steeped in Vaishnava bhakti. One example is Girvanendra Sarasvati (also known as Bhagavannama Bodhendra) of Kumbhakonam, who wrote advaita treatises and is also credited with codifying the bhajana sampradAya in the south. Milton Singer and T. K. Venkateswaran are good sources for this tradition, which they call the "rAdhA-kr.shNa bhajana" sampradAya. Interestingly, this bhajana sampradAya regards Caitanya very highly. > There is clearly a phenomenon here about which little is known and about > which little has been written. Hacker, I believe, wrote about Vaisnava > influences on Sankara, and Daniel Sheridan has written a book about the > advaita strands of belief in the Bhaagavata-puraa.na, which is clearly South > Indian in origin. Maadhavendra Puri was clearly a hybrid of sorts who grew Yes, there are whole chapters in the Bhagavata Purana which clearly teach advaita. But let us leave alone the topic of Vaishnava influences on Sankara himself aside. That is an entirely different issue, and can be debated forever. Madhusudana Sarasvati's influence in his native Bengal is probably a much more important factor for Gaudiya Vaishnavism than any of Sankara's texts. S. Vidyasankar From jkcowart at io-online.com Tue Apr 8 18:37:30 1997 From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 11:37:30 -0700 Subject: new language, new soul (was Re: Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley) Message-ID: <161227029491.23782.12965242829852713162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:10 PM 4/8/97 BST, Jacob Baltuch wrote: >>Each time we learn a new language, we acquire a new >>personality, told by A. K. Ramanujan. > >Ennius (ca 240-170 BC) is said to have said that, >since he knew Latin, Greek and Oscan, it was as >if he had "three hearts" Does anyone have bibliographic citations for these two gems? J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From thompson at jlc.net Tue Apr 8 18:13:46 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 14:13:46 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029489.23782.8928833485015347607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Patrick Olivelle wrote on 04-04-97: >>We really do not know the type of loom that forms the basis of the >>metaphor. It appears that the weaver was located not behind the warp (as in >>modern hand-looms) but on the side where she (and it is mostly women!) can >>pass the shuttle back and forth. I have seen one reference that speaks of a >>pair of women weaving (can't think of the source); if so there may have >>been two women on either side of the loom passing the shuttle back and >>forth > >The two weaving women at the loom are mentioned in the year allegory of the >Paushyaparvan of the Mahabharata (Mbh. 1.3.147,151,167,172). > >Regards > Georg v.Simson We also see USAsA-naktA, the pair of goddesses, characterized as a pair of weavers [vayye`] at RV 2.3.6. More later, George Thompson From sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de Tue Apr 8 09:16:19 1997 From: sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de (sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 14:46:19 +0530 Subject: Autobiography of S. C. Bose Message-ID: <161227029473.23782.8294187782662832742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List Member, I have an enquiry regarding the autobiography of Subhas Chandra Bose. The title is : "An Indian Pilgrim". I have been informed that this book had been published sometime ago by "Konark Publications". I have no further information as to the whereabouts of this publishing house. While I seek confirmation on this and the complete address of Konark Publishers, I would like to know if there is any other source from where I could get this book. I would also like to know if the "Netaji Research Bureau" in Calcutta could help in any way. Thanks & Regards, Sreenivasa Nittala From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Apr 8 22:58:34 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 15:58:34 -0700 Subject: ALA-LC romanization tables Message-ID: <161227029496.23782.1019629452432901926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Royce Wiles wrote: > For the webpage on various scripts, you might want to have a look at the > following title which gives a considerable number of romanization tables > etc. > > TITLE ALA-LC romanization tables : transliteration schemes for non- > Roman scripts / approved by the Library of Congress and the > American Library Association ; tables compiled and edited by > Randall K. Barry. One would imagine that an such a publication would maintain some sort of constancy in the transliteration of various scripts derived from a single script such as Arabic. But such an assumption may largely be due to my ignorance on academic/scholarly standardizations. I was complexed as to why certain characters of the Urdu script which are found in the Arabic as well were transliterated differently from that of the Arabic. There were also some differences in the transliteration between Urdu and Persian. Could anyone clarify as to why such variations were decided upon? Regards, Anshuman Pandey University of Washington apandey at u.washington.edu From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au Tue Apr 8 08:11:48 1997 From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 18:11:48 +1000 Subject: Software for preparing a bibliography Message-ID: <161227029470.23782.14982975516183533402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found procite much more cumbersome than refernce manager. They also have a web page which you can find through netsearch Sugandha At 16:55 7/04/97 BST, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Kamal R. Adhikary wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I am looking for software for compiling an annotated bibliography. >> If any of you know such software and let me know the name of the >> software/company name I would really appreciate it. Thanks. >> > >Kamal, >The software 'PROCITE' will work for you. Check out the complete >details at http://www.risinc.com/ > >good luck, > > > >d e e p a k g u p t a >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak > > > > > > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Apr 8 16:37:02 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 18:37:02 +0200 Subject: Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227029485.23782.18382408139533282257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Truly, I felt at home. Valluvar says in an immortal kuRaL > >uvappath thalaikkuuDi, uLLap pirithal - >anaiththE pulavar thozhil. > >Is it not learned people's nature - > to rejoice while in company, and > to wonder "when shall we meet again?", > in parting. Ganesan, I think that Valluvar was partially wrong. He must have forgotten those learned people who happen to *agree* with us. It is the other ones that are the problem! Best regards, Lars Martin From thompson at jlc.net Tue Apr 8 23:13:52 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 19:13:52 -0400 Subject: Need Translation of Rig Veda Message-ID: <161227029497.23782.16863578549493860163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I need the best available translation for Rig Veda or at least for RV 10.71. >Can anybody suggest some publication or paper? (I have Ralph Griffith's >work.) Thanks in advance. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan Frits Staal has translated and commented upon this hymn in *Revelation in Indian Thought* -- a Festschrift to T.R.V. Murti, edited by Coward and Sivaraman, 1977. More later, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Tue Apr 8 18:06:21 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 20:06:21 +0200 Subject: new language, new soul (was Re: Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley) Message-ID: <161227029488.23782.14496989193939955230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Each time we learn a new language, we acquire a new >personality, told by A. K. Ramanujan. Ennius (ca 240-170 BC) is said to have said that, since he knew Latin, Greek and Oscan, it was as if he had "three hearts" From mgansten at sbbs.se Tue Apr 8 18:51:57 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 20:51:57 +0200 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029493.23782.7439697794171666445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Vidyasankar wrote: >Which makes it all the more curious that the Gaudiyas explicitly claim a >connection with the Madhvas, and strenuously deny any links to an advaita >tradition. Any contemporary advaita monk would be labelled a Vaishnava or >a Saiva or a Sakta in Sankarite disguise. (---) > >That said, there have always been many southern Sankarite sannyasis who >are steeped in Vaishnava bhakti. One example is Girvanendra Sarasvati >(also known as Bhagavannama Bodhendra) of Kumbhakonam, who wrote advaita >treatises ... But this is exactly where Gaudiyas differ, isn't it? Gaudiyas would not generally consider someone who wrote Advaita treatises a genuine Vaishnava, no matter how devout he might seem. Thus, the emphasis seems to be more on siddhanta than on externals, including the line of sannyasa initiation. I don't believe any Gaudiya would try to deny the fact that Caitanya had a formal link to the Sankarite sampradaya -- as indeed did Madhva! It just doesn't seem as important. (In our post-Gaudiya Math days, things are of course different, since Siddhanta Saraswati established his own line of sannyasa with rituals borrowed, I believe, from the Srisampradaya.) Martin Gansten From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 9 04:54:51 1997 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (B. Reusch) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 20:54:51 -0800 Subject: help on applications Message-ID: <161227029501.23782.14103786467931368717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 4:17 +0100 4/9/97, Richard Barz wrote: >Hi Royce, >I've just heard that the Faculty has made some money available for helping >with grant applications. > >Would you be interested in helping me and so getting some of this money? > > Can I get a grant, too? Beatrice From jagat at polyinter.com Wed Apr 9 02:27:43 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 22:27:43 -0400 Subject: Inquiry about Rigveda electronic texts Message-ID: <161227029480.23782.10882622446645860293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please excuse me for not having paid attention. A friend (Dr. John Leavitt of Universit? de Montr?al) has asked if there is an electronic text of the .Rgveda Sa.mhitaa available. Thanks for the help. Jan. Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From jagat at polyinter.com Wed Apr 9 02:27:47 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 22:27:47 -0400 Subject: Madhavendra Puri Message-ID: <161227029483.23782.10095348183916849743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:24 97-04-08 BST, S. Vidyasankar wrote: > > >Excluding Vallabha and Nimbarka, who were both south Indians, the one >tangible medieval link between southern and northern vaishNavism is >rAmAnanda, who was from the SrIvaishNava sampradAya. > I think that F. Hardy makes a rather good case that Madhavendra Puri was a Southern Vaisnava with strong leanings to an emotional bhakti as exemplified by the Alvars. Since clearly he was not a Madhva or a Srivaisnava, then what was he? From the Caitanya-caritamrita, it is clear that Caitanya's group included primarily both householder and sannyasi disciples of Madhavendra or Isvara Puri. The Sannyasis were nearly all Puris or Bharatis. Kesava Bharati also probably belonged to this group of Vaisnavas in Sankarite disguise. There is clearly a phenomenon here about which little is known and about which little has been written. Hacker, I believe, wrote about Vaisnava influences on Sankara, and Daniel Sheridan has written a book about the advaita strands of belief in the Bhaagavata-puraa.na, which is clearly South Indian in origin. Maadhavendra Puri was clearly a hybrid of sorts who grew in this tradition. The mantras which are commonly used for initiation in the Gaudiya sampradaaya, the 18-syllable mantra and the kaama-gaayatrii, are found in the Naarada-pancaraatra, the Gopaala-taapaniiya Upani.sad and the Brahma-sa.mhitaa. With the exception of GTU, I would think, these are easily confirmed as having South Indian origin. The Nimbarka group also initiates with these mantras, so it would appear that the philosophical resemblances have another, more solid basis. Whatever the case, the idea of four sampradaayas should be understood as a complete fabrication which probably was born quite late. I would suspect the 18th century, but there are references which are cited from the 16th century which appear (to most impartial scholars) to be interpolations. The Gaudiya connection with South India does not stop here, however. GopAla BhaTTa GosvAmI was a South Indian Vaisnava who had a major influence on GauDIya doctrine and practice. JIva GosvAmI attributes the basic ideas behind the theological expos? of the BhAgavata, SaTsandarbha, to GopAla BhaTTa. The HaribhaktivilAsa, compiled by GopAla BhaTTa is a compendium of smArta regulations derived from various sources, including those of KeSava, the important 16th century AcArya of the NimbArka sampradAya. GopAla BhaTTa was likely a convert from the Srisampradaaya, and much of his sa.mskaara remained with him, it would seem, at least where it concerned the development of a smArta-type development of ritualistic practice, most of which has never caught on in the Gaudiya school at all. All these points beg to be investigated more thoroughly... Jan. Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 9 04:10:45 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 00:10:45 -0400 Subject: Other Festivals Too. Message-ID: <161227029502.23782.8764055917628561896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-08 01:37:12 EDT, vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) writes: << On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, JAYABARATHI wrote: [..] > The Medeival Tamils followed the Solar calender more faithfully. > In the Chola and Pandya inscriptions, we find that the Tamil months were actually named after the Signs of the > Zodiac. > When the Sun was in Aries i.e. MEsha, The corresponding Tamil month was called MEda NyAyiRu..Taurus(Rishabha) > =Idaba NyAyiRu.; Pisces = MIna NyAyiRu. The Malayalam calender still names its months meDam, iDavam etc. As in many other things, Malayalam speaking people have preserved more of this Tamil heritage than contemporary Tamil speakers. Vidyasankar >> In the post-Classical Tamil work cilappatikAram, a specific date for burning down of Madurai is specified. I am giving it below. In the month of ATi (AshADa) in the dark fortnight of the kArttika asterism ("azal cEr kuTTattu") on the day of aSTami on a Friday the famous Madurai will be consumed by fire. It is obvious lunar month was followed here. Considering the fact that the author of the text iLaGko was supposed to be from Kerala, I wonder what any one can say about which calendar was used. The present reckoning of years in Kerala is called kollam era based on the coming to power of some kings near kollam around 800 AD(?) Do we know what calendar they followed before that? Some people from Tirunelveli District also use kollam era (at least some of my relatives still do) probably due to Keralan rule over parts of Tirunelveli and Kanyakumari Districts. Regards S. Palaniappan From thillaud at unice.fr Tue Apr 8 22:26:27 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 00:26:27 +0200 Subject: ivy's berries Message-ID: <161227029494.23782.11041104170181482253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Midnight is a fine hour to work, all is quiet, namaste! Searching the translation of 'berry' in the English-Sanskrit dictionary of Vaman Shivram Apte, I've just found 'gulii' and 'guDikaa' whose meaning is 'ball', 'pill'. Searching for 'ivy', just the periphrastic 'taru-rohiNii' and 'vRkSa-lataa'. Why ? no berries nor ivy in Bharat ? If anyone knows better words (genuine and more precise),I'll be very grateful. And a second request: if there is ivy in Bharat, where ? (Arrien in his Anabasis (record of Alexander's expedition) said it was a mountain plant from the Meros (obviously the Meru), it's true ? Regards, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Wed Apr 9 03:19:48 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 02:19:48 -0100 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029519.23782.2677601982024344244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 07 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (dicko at netletter.com) dc> From: Dick Oliver dc> Subject: Re: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent dc> Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you dc> refrain from, as the dc> South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." Is this South Indian? I've never heard it. Perhaps you mean Tamilian? - Robert Zydenbos From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 9 07:17:50 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 03:17:50 -0400 Subject: Amazing PataJjali, lakSaNa, and vyAkaraNa Message-ID: <161227029503.23782.13666342719903481004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-08 18:11:11 EDT, pfilliozat at magic.fr (Pierre Filliozat) writes: << This remarkable stanza has been commented by Pata?jali in MahAbhA.sya, Paspa"sA,p. 4 (Kielhorn ed.). Pata?jali interprets it as a praise of VaiyAkara.na-s. Lak.smI is given by him as derived from the root lak.s but in the meaning of "shining,light". Regards Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat >> My heart-felt thanks to Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat. Scholars of Sanskrit grammar may not be aware of this. But PataJjali plays a pivotal role in dating the Tamil literature. Based on the use of the word ?ilakkaNam? by tolkAppiyar and an explanation for the location of the word with semantic significance when two words form a compound, a Tamil scholar by name Vaiyapuri Pillai and following him Kamil Zvelebil date tolkAppiyar after PataJjali. (Apparently, PataJjali was the one to introduce the word ?lakSaNa? in the sense of grammar and he was the one who introduced the classification of compounds into pUrvapadArtha, uttarapadArtha, anyapadArtha, and ubhayapadArtha. Vaiyapuri Pillai, in his discussion however, quotes Katyayana as saying "lakSya lakSane vyakaraNam" for which vArttika PataJjali is supposed to say "sabdo lakSya sUtram lakSaNam"!) Since the language of the Classical Tamil texts is supposed to be close to what is described by tolkAppiyam, Zvelebil says that there could hardly have been a wide gap of time between the two. Vaiyapuri Pillai and Zvelebil, when they saw similar expressions in tolkAppiyam and mahAbhASya, they did not consider the possibility that both could be drawing on a common tradition. They simply assumed that Tamil borrowed from Sanskrit. V.S. Rajam in her 1981dissertation demonstrated that there could have been several grammatical traditions in India and tolkAppiyar need not have modeled his grammar after any one tradition, such as that of pANini. Even after this result, Tamil literary historiography is still based on Zvelebil?s work. Even the recent translation of cilappatikAram by Parthasarathy uses a 5th century CE date based on Zvelebil. For a long time, I have felt that there was some common tradition that tolkAppiyar and PataJjali shared at least partly. If PataJjali was a kApya and tolkAppiar was also a kApya, then there might have been some common familial tradition. While I had planned to explore that more in future, in my research on ?ta?ntra?, I came upon Rig Veda 10.71.2 serendipitously. I was immediately reminded of Zvelebil?s discussion of the first use of ?lakSaNa? by PataJjali and how this might relate to the Tamil word for grammar ?ilakkaNam?. It may be a coincidence but only yesterday, in response to a personal query from Srini Pichumani on the native word in Tamil for grammar, I was explaining a possible etymology for ?ilakkaNam?, the word used to denote grammar in Tamil. (I had no idea what PataJjali has said.) I wrote, <<'ilakku' also means 'to brighten', (effective form for the affective ilaGku) synonymous with viLakku (effective form for the affective viLanku). Whenever something is made brighter, it becomes easier to perceive/understand. That is how the semantic extension of viLaGku to mean 'understand' and 'viLakku' to mean 'explain' came about. If similar extensions are made to 'ilaGku'/'ilakku' one can see how one could have used it in the context of a term 'explaining' a particular language. Now 'ilakku' and 'lakS' can be equivalents. The question is did 'ilakku' come first or 'lakS'? We do not know. In "Old Indian" by J. Gonda on page 222, he says, " The origin of the base lakS- is however in dispute." >> It is in this context, PataJjali?s explanation of the root ?lakS? as signifying ?shining/light? is absolutely amazing. Consider Tamil ?ilanku? meaning ?to shine, glisten, glitter? (DED 707) the affective form of an affective/effective verb pair. The effective form can be inferred as ?ilakku? from tolkAppiyar?s use of ?ilakkam?. ?ilakku? would mean that which makes something else bright.(The commonness of verbal noun forms and effective forms of affective/effective pairs in Dravidian has been noted by linguists.) ?ilakkam? as noun has been used in Classical Tamil texts to mean ?target to aimed at and shoot? as well as ?light?. In his book ?Aryans in the Rig Veda?, F. B. J. Kuiper has discussed how some non-Indo-European ?-kk-? clusters have been Sanskritized as ?-Sk-? clusters and at least in one case as ?-kS-? cluster (Dravidian Tamil ?pAkkam? meaning ?sea-side village, etc.? > Sanskrit ?pakSaNa? meaning ?village inhabited by savages?) If the same process has occurred along with the well-known Dravidian tendency of apical displacement or loss of root vowel before r, l, etc., then , we will have ilakk- > lakk > lakS This will explain the connection between the origins of Dravidian ilakkaNam and Sanskrit lakSaNa. Based on my experience with ?sUtra? and ?ta?ntra?, I tested to see if there was any semantic connection between ?vyAkaraNa? and ?viLakku?, the Tamil synonym for ?ilakku?. The result was unbelievable. vyAkaraNa means ?separation, grammatical analysis? (CDIAL 12182). ?viLaGku? (DED 4524) means ?to shine, become renowned, be polished, be clear or plain, know? and ?viLakku? means as a verb ?to make clear, explain, make illustrious, clean, polish, purify and as a noun ?lamp, light, lustre, brightening?. The verb ?viL? in DED 4459 means to open out, expand, unfold as a blossom, crack, split, burst, be at variance, become clear, be separated from?. DED 4460 lists additional meanings for the same word form as ?to say, reveal, make known?. The semantics of the root ?viL? is clear, i.e., ?to separate something from something attached to it and as a result make it clear/bright?. The striking parallels between ?viLakku? and ?vyAkaraNa? are obvious. The Dravidian/ Tamil terms are linked by the concept of brightness. The Sanskrit terms seem to come from different roots. But the linkage can be seen in Tamil. The cognates of root ?viL? are found in all the Dravidian language groups. Thus this can be traced to proto-Dravidian. If we remember that this is the hymn by bRhaspati AGgirasa, in which he has also used the word ?ta'ntra', then we know that definitely Dravidian/pre-Vedic influence was there. Thus, even the concept of the grammar as ?something which explains/makes thing bright by separation/analysis? seems to be Dravidian/pre-Vedic as well. The meaning of ?mark,sign? might have developed because of the brightness of the signs painted on ?targets to aim and shoot at?. If Pali and Prakrit words for grammar are ?lakkhaNa?, then they may represent a form closer to the original ?ilakkaNam?. So, no wonder Jains and probably Buddhists were well-versed in grammar. In conclusion, PataJjali was amazingly ?on target? when he tried to explain ?lakS? as meaning ?bright?. I would like to hear the reaction of the Sanskrit scholars on this list. Regards. S. Palaniappan From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 9 09:22:34 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 10:22:34 +0100 Subject: Inquiry about Rigveda electronic texts Message-ID: <161227029505.23782.12321865269176521722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > Please excuse me for not having paid attention. A friend (Dr. John Leavitt > of Universit? de Montr?al) has asked if there is an electronic text of the > Rgveda Sa.mhitaa available. Vol. 50 in the Harvard Oriental Series is Rig Veda: a metrically restored text with an introduction and notes, ed. B. A. van nooten and Gary B. Holland, 1994. It contains a disk with (a) the Aufrecht edition in more-or-less standard CSX transcription, (b) the metrically restored text in a version of CSX that has been extended in various undocumented ways. The Aufrecht text (which seems very accurate where I have looked at it) would probably suit Dr Leavitt. As I recall, there are few if any restrictions on its non-commercial use. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 9 15:45:47 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 11:45:47 -0400 Subject: Amazing PataJjali, lakSaNa, and vyAkaraNa (contd.) Message-ID: <161227029511.23782.15058399349969216051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forgot to mention in connection with the author of Rig Veda 10.71, bRhaspati aGgirasa, that Frits Staal in his work on Agnicayana ritual says, " Even if a word is Indo-European, like asura, for example, it might refer to things indian and pre-Vedic. It is possible that aGgirases were singers, and reasonably certain that they were priests of a fire cult. They are directly related to the asuras in Rgveda 3.53.7 and 10.67.2, where the aGgirases are called "heroes of asura" (asurasya vIrAH). Following Hillebrandt, it would not be farfetched to suppose that the aGgirases were originally an indigenous tribe or family that was incorporated into the Vedic cult at a relatively early stage. It is conceivable that the agnicayana was incorporated into the Vedic ritual through their intermediary, since they were primarily priests of a fire-cult. Thus the theory of Kosambi (1950), criticized in Brough (1953, xiv-xvi), that the Vedic brahmins were to a large extent recruited from the priest class of the conquered pre-Aryan population, would seem to be valid at least in the case of the aGgirases". (Agni: The Vedic ritual of the Fire Altar, Volume I, page 138) Thus the name bRhaspati aGgirasa is one more clue to the pre-Vedic/Dravidian origin of the concepts of text and grammar. From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Apr 9 15:48:12 1997 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 11:48:12 -0400 Subject: ivy's berries Message-ID: <161227029509.23782.870486086445289962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, the mention of Meru is fortuitous; I was going to ask a question about this. Recently a student asked me about the origin of the name Sumeru. I suspect that perhaps it is Su-Meru, and that what we have to look for is Meru. But I don't have the resources here to look into it. Is this etymologically Skt? Somehow - although my sense for this is not very good - it doesn't "feel" like Skt to me, although this is of course without value historically. Any idea about the origins of the names (Su)Meru? Jonathan Silk silk at wmich.edu PS: The student thought the name was Japanese, so partly I *could* answer his question! From bpj at netg.se Wed Apr 9 11:01:34 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 13:01:34 +0200 Subject: Other Festivals Too. Message-ID: <161227029507.23782.6641078732451668985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:14 9.4.1997 +0100, Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > >It is obvious lunar month was followed here. Considering the fact that the >author of the text iLaGko was supposed to be from Kerala, I wonder what any >one can say about which calendar was used. The present reckoning of years in >Kerala is called kollam era based on the coming to power of some kings near >kollam around 800 AD(?) Do we know what calendar they followed before that? > >Some people from Tirunelveli District also use kollam era (at least some of >my relatives still do) probably due to Keralan rule over parts of Tirunelveli >and Kanyakumari Districts. > BTW: which is the current year in the Saka epoch? Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Wed Apr 9 15:22:00 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 14:22:00 -0100 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029520.23782.17312700922683243900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit What disturbs me a bit in this discussion is that some people are writing about Sanskrit as a "dead" or "read-only" language. Why are there daily news broadcasts in Sanskrit on national Indian radio? Are they intended not to be understood? How is it that I hear panditas from different parts of India converse with each other in Sanskrit? And I have done the same, speaking with scholars from Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat, because I speak no Telugu and Gujarati. I see and hear scholars from far-off parts of India come to Mysore to work in the Oriental Research Institute, and they discuss their matters with the Mysorean employees of the institute in Sanskrit. Some Westerners may decide to ignore these facts, or for some reason decide that they do not need / want the possibility of communication through Sanskrit. But the fact remains that Sanskrit, also spoken Sanskrit, is not conveniently categorizable as either "living" or "dead". It is as undead as Latin was in Europe till recent times (and medieval Latin in, e.g., Scandinavia was not identical to that in, e.g., Iberia, also not in spelling, but nevertheless it remained in profitable use). F. Smith made a good point about the pedagogical usefulness of teaching pronunciation. As for which pronunciation: this is a quite minor issue. Phonemics matter, not phonetics. In my own teaching, I stress that one should distinguish between (a) dental and retroflex consonants, (b) prosodically long and short syllables, (c) aspirated and unaspirated consonants; if one gets those right, more than half the work is done. Pragmatically, it seems best to imitate the Indian Sanskrit speakers with whom one deals most. And my Karnatakan Sanskrit is understood by Andhras and Nepalis, and I understand Andhra and Nepali Sanskrit. In the worst case, in a conversation, you simply ask your interlocutor to repeat what he said when his pronunciation is difficult for you. The kind of people who speak Sanskrit tend to be of good will! (But it is better to use _real_ Sanskrit, not the 'simplified' Hindutva-Sanskrit of the ten-day crash courses from Bangalore, which is nowadays also offered in North America.) - Robert Zydenbos From athr at loc.gov Wed Apr 9 19:32:55 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 15:32:55 -0400 Subject: ivy's berries Message-ID: <161227029516.23782.14684534979368442740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suspect phala 'fruit' would cover most berries. Ivy grows wild in the hill station Dalhousie where I spent the hot season of 1979. Allen Thrasher On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Dominique.Thillaud wrote: > Midnight is a fine hour to work, all is quiet, namaste! > > Searching the translation of 'berry' in the English-Sanskrit > dictionary of Vaman Shivram Apte, I've just found 'gulii' and 'guDikaa' > whose meaning is 'ball', 'pill'. > Searching for 'ivy', just the periphrastic 'taru-rohiNii' and > 'vRkSa-lataa'. > Why ? no berries nor ivy in Bharat ? > If anyone knows better words (genuine and more precise),I'll be > very grateful. > And a second request: if there is ivy in Bharat, where ? (Arrien in > his Anabasis (record of Alexander's expedition) said it was a mountain > plant from the Meros (obviously the Meru), it's true ? > Regards, > Dominique > > Dominique THILLAUD > Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France > > > > From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Wed Apr 9 16:06:04 1997 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 16:06:04 +0000 Subject: ivy's berries Message-ID: <161227029508.23782.11272210364899592688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tue, 8 Apr 1997 "Dominique.Thillaud" wrote... > > ... > And a second request: if there is ivy in Bharat, where ? (Arrien in >his Anabasis (record of Alexander's expedition) said it was a mountain >plant from the Meros (obviously the Meru), it's true ? > Regards, >Dominique > > Mount Meros of the historians of Alexander's campaigns was situated in eastern Afghanistan and I think ivy is really growing there, though do not know any name for it. The name Meros is probably related to Meru, but its might still be of local origin and therefore not necessarily be directly connected with the mythological and cosmographical ideas connected to Meru. If I remember right, Tucci has discussed this question, too, in his long article in East and West 27, 1977. Klaus Karttunen From mm383 at columbia.edu Wed Apr 9 21:52:10 1997 From: mm383 at columbia.edu (Mary McGee) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 17:52:10 -0400 Subject: Tamil Conference, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227029517.23782.11051084990212174468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With the arrival of Professors Valentine Daniel and Nicholas Dirks as part of Columbia's growing faculty in South Asian studies, we certainly wouldn't mind a Tamil chair at Columbia! Mary McGee, Associate Professor of Classical Hinduism From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Wed Apr 9 16:10:46 1997 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Harry Falk) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 18:10:46 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227029514.23782.4571621637123921787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) I just finished working on a manuskript of a dharma text written by Somasrikantha Sarman It may be around 200 years old. Has anyone come across this person? Where did he live and what were his activities? 2) I am looking for information about a library in Kotah, Rajasthan. Who has personal ties to that place? Harry Falk From sarin at erols.com Thu Apr 10 00:23:41 1997 From: sarin at erols.com (sarin at erols.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 19:23:41 -0500 Subject: ivy's berries Message-ID: <161227029521.23782.9055770198335354515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Actually, the mention of Meru is fortuitous; I was going to ask a question >about this. Recently a student asked me about the origin of the name Sumeru. >I suspect that perhaps it is Su-Meru, and that what we have to look for is >Meru. But I don't have the resources here to look into it. Is this >etymologically Skt? Somehow - although my sense for this is not very good - >it doesn't "feel" like Skt to me, although this is of course without value >historically. Any idea about the origins of the names (Su)Meru? >Jonathan Silk >silk at wmich.edu > >PS: The student thought the name was Japanese, so partly I *could* answer >his question! For that matter, does the word have anything to do with Sumer? Often wondered if there is any connection with Sumer and all the Rajasthani cities like Jaiselmer, Ajmer etc. on the other side of the Indus from Mesopotamia. Apparently the Bhattis who founded Jaiselmer in the 12th c. had returned after some centuries in the middle east, so the 'mer' may have come in late with them. How old is the word Sumer anyway and does the original pronunciation rhyme with modern Ajmer? Amita Sarin From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Apr 10 05:48:23 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 22:48:23 -0700 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029523.23782.13991410972103321548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > > 10 abhinava-shankara: According to the annals of Heads of > the Sanctuary (Matha) in Kanchi-kamakoti, there were four > Shankaras after the Acharya Sri Shankara. The thity-eigth > Head is this Swamiji Shankara. As he traveled round the > country several times like the original preceptor and > vigorously propagated the ideals of Advaita, he was nick- > named as 'abhinava-shankara' ( died circa 841AD). > If "original preceptor" refers to the Adi Sankara who wrote commentaries to the upanishads etc., then that preceptor lived in the 7th or 8th century AD. It is difficult to believe that within one century, there were four other incarnations of Sankara, and that the fifth one called abhinava-Sankara died in 841 AD. It is certainly strange that vAcaspati miSra I, the author of bhAmatI, who must have been a close contemporary, seems to be completely unaware of this 'vigorous propagator of advaita ideals'. However, there *was* one fairly recent sannyAsin who was popularly called abhinava-Sankara, but he was not connected to the Kanchi Matha. His dIkshA name was rAma brahmAnanda tIrtha. He wrote a commentary (SrIrudrabhAshyam) to the rudram, which was published in 1962 by the Vani Vilas Press, Srirangam. S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Apr 10 12:52:22 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 05:52:22 -0700 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029530.23782.18190937081227189650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: [..] > > " abhinava-shankara: According to the annals of Heads of > the Sanctuary (Matha) in Kanchi-kamakoti, it seems that > there were four Shankaras after the Acharya Sri Shankara. > Among these, Sri KripA-shankara is the ninth. Sri Ujjwala-shnakara > is the fifteenth. Sri MUka-shanakara is the twnty-fifth. > The thirty-eigth Head is this Swamiji 'abhinava-shankara'. The only problem I have with this account is this. Adi Sankara lived from 788-820 AD ("offical" date.) Research on internal evidence of his works suggests that he might have lived closer to 700 AD. Even if we assume that Adi Sankara died as early as 650 AD, the time interval upto 841 AD is less than two hundred years. Don't you think that is a very short period of time to account for thirty-eight successors to a Sankaracharya title? If this account were true, there is just five years or so available for each successor. Does this sound reasonable? It is also incredible that all four later incarnations became the heads of the disputed Kanchi matha. I hope you are aware that the succession of the Kanchi matha is very controversial, and that it is highly probable, if not certain, that the Kanchi matha was not established by Adi Sankara at all. The general advaita tradition only names four mathas - Sringeri, Puri, Dwaraka and Badrinath - as having been established by Adi Sankara. The ten daSanAmI orders also affiliate themselves only with these four. Whatever be the history or the truth behind this tradition, the currently very famous Kanchi matha is conspicuous by its absence. The earliest evidence about this matha dates to the early 19th century. Therefore, it would take a highly credulous reader to accept this story of "abhinava-Sankara" unconditionally. > He is the son of Sri Chidambara Vishvajit. The Sankara vijayam of Anantanandagiri says that it is Adi Sankara who is the son of Chidambaram Visvajit. This text gives absolutely no indication that this birth was the fifth in a row of incarnations. I don't understand how another "abhinava-Sankara" can be said to be the son of Chidambaram Visvajit. Unless, of course, the first and the so-called fifth incarnations were so alike, that even their fathers had identical names! > As he traveled round the country several times like the > original preceptor (Acharya Shankara), and vigorously propagated > the ideals of Advaita and rejuvinated it, he was nick-named as > 'abhinava-shankara'. He has another nick-name 'dhIra-shankara' > because of his fierce debating character, a terror to his opponent > in debate (prativAdi-bhayanakara). According to a book > 'shakarEndu-vilAsa' by Sri vAkpati bhatta, his fame had spread > even to other countries abroad like China, Turkey and Persia. And yet, these countries know almost nothing of advaita vedaanta, no? Not all hagiography can be accepted as truth or as tradition. Has this vAkpati bhaTTa composed any other works? Is the Sankarendu-vilAsa available anywhere in India? My bet is that the work doesn't even exist, except as a quotation in Kanchi matha publications. > He was the head of the kAma-kOti pITha for 52 years and attained > nirvANa on AShADa shukla pratipat day of siddhArthi samvatsara > of kali era 3941". > Now, 52 of the 200 years between Adi and abhinava Sankara have been accounted for. This leaves less than 150 years to accomodate the intervening 36 heads of the Kanchi matha. Less than four years for each. If we take into account that the Kanchi matha's account says that Suresvara, Sankara's immediate disciple, lived for a very long time, there is just no time left to fit in the other 35. Of course, none of these absurdities arise if the entire account given by the Kanchi matha is questioned. What really bothers me about the Kanchi matha's account is that extremely precise information (down to the tithi, nakshatra, paksha, mAsa and samvatsara) is given for the birth, ascension and death of each one of its successors to the Sankaracharya title. Such information is generally not known for most Indian personalities. And sannyAsins are not supposed to care for their pUrvASrama lives very much. There is a very real probability that although the Kanchi matha's list is very precise, it is precisely wrong. > I have quoted above extracts from the article by 'H.G' > (= Prof. G Hanumanthachar, President, Sub-Committe on Philosophy > (tattva-shAstra), Kannada Encyclopedia, Mysore, India). > Taking a difference of 3101 years between kali & common era, > his probable date would be 'died circa 840AD'. The story of "abhinava-Sankara" can only make sense if Adi Sankara can be shown to have lived around the 5th century BC, which is the date given by the Kanchi matha. However, this date conflicts with internal evidence from Sankara's works. Of more importance to the living advaita tradition, this date also conflicts with the widely established tradition. As you may be aware, the Sringeri record places Adi Sankara in the time of Vikramaditya, who has been identified as a Chalukya king, who ruled between 650 and 680 AD. And in general, the Sringeri records are more extensive and have proved to be more reliable than those of any other matha. B. Lewis Rice (editor of Epigraphica Carnatica), Hayavadana Rao (Mysore Gazetteer) and A. K. Shastry have studied these records in some detail. Much earlier, Abbe Dubois had raised some objections to the records of the Sringeri matha, but these have since been fully countered. As an aside, if they want to maintain some academic standards, Indian editors of Indian language encyclopedias should be more critical about the information they include, don't you think? > > -Sincerely, > Harihareswara > PS: Is the book 'Sri rudra-bhAShya' you have quoted available? > Where can I get a copy of it, please? Thanks! > The University of California library system has copies in its general reserves and in the southern campus (UCLA, UCI) reserves. I'm sure you can get it through an interlibrary loan request. S. Vidyasankar From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Thu Apr 10 16:28:22 1997 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 09:28:22 -0700 Subject: Q: sa.mjiiva~nasamaadhi Message-ID: <161227029533.23782.14621866787209663720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shin Young Yoo asked: >Could anyone explain a qurious term "sa.mjiiva~nasamaadhi", referring to the after-death state of J~naneSvara. Where and how the term was used?< I do not know when or where the term was first used. However, I do know, however, that in the official publications of the J;nane;svara Sa.msthaana at Aa..landii the term is being increasingly used. Its spelling in the message reproduced above should be -vana-, not va~na. My guess would be that the term started its life as sajiiva- or sajiivana-samaadhi and has relatively recently been corrupted to sa.mjiivana-. It is almost a universal belief among the followers of Maharashtrian Sants that J;naane;svara (more authentic name J;naana-deva) chose his hour of departure from ordinary mortals, entered the place where his samaadhi/monument is now located, and asked that it be covered. Under the covering slabs, he is believed by his devotees to be still 'living.' He is thus probably unique among the Sants in being held as one who departed from the ordinary world but did not cease to be a living presence *with the same body.* The place of his samaadhi is considered to be jaag.rta or 'alive, charged with his saintly presence' (which is not unusual in the case of Sants) in an immediate and physical sense (which, however, is unusual). J;naana-deva devotees do not speak of his death. In fact, some officials of the Sa.msthaana and many Aa..landii locals objected to the 'death' part when J;naana-deva's periodwas specified in a publication of the Indian Philosophical Congress (held at Pune in Nov 96) with something like 'birth 1275 A.D., death 1296 A.D.' Thus, J;naana-deva departs sajiiva/sajiivana and remains sajiiva/sajiivana. Why do I consider corruption of sajiivana into sa.mjiivana probable? General decline of knowledge of Sanskrit has made ordinary Marathi speakers oblivious to distinctions such as sa and sam. The use of sa.mjiivana (which too is a perfectly good Skt word meaning 'rejuvenating') is found in some abha:nga compositions. I recall the famous singer Bhimsen Joshi singing an abha:nga with words like " samaadhi-saadhana sa.mjiivana naama" in his highly popular Santa-vaa.nii program. While this use of sa.jiivana is appropriate in its context, it could have led to an overapplication outside the context of the song. From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de Thu Apr 10 07:48:29 1997 From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 09:48:29 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029525.23782.13664715693007207280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Replies to msg 07 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (dicko at netletter.com) > dc> Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you > dc> refrain from, as the > dc> South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." > > Is this South Indian? I've never heard it. Perhaps you mean Tamilian? Oh, yes :)! Its said even in Telugu, and have heard some of my Malayali friends saying something 'very' similar. Regards, Sreenivas From lfdelcanto at redestb.es Thu Apr 10 08:37:37 1997 From: lfdelcanto at redestb.es (Leon Fernando Del Canto) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 10:37:37 +0200 Subject: pronunciation of sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029526.23782.3211253656857034793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar Robert and thanks for your defense of spoken samskrit. I agree with you in some points, however I would like you to clarify the following ones: 1. Re. Latin: I would like you to know that it is still used as spoken language in some scholars circles as the "Romanists" who are Ph D. involved in Roman History, Law, language and Philosophy teaching in the European Universities mainly. For instance, in Spain we study Roman Law as a mandatory subject for the Law Degree and many of the international conferences in Roman Law are hold in Latin. 2. Re. your appreciation on > it is better to use real_ Sanskrit, not the 'simplified' Hindutva-Sanskrit of the ten-day crash courses from Bangalore> it seems a bit offensive to me, specially as the little Samskrit I know has been learnt with them. I am not affiliated to them in any way but here in Spain there is no other possibility to learn Samskrit as it doesn't still have University recognition as such language, some basic Samskrit is thaught in Classical Philology in a course called Indoeuropean languages, but is even more basic that the one you can find in the "Learn Samskrit in 30 days" books. I would appreciate very much if you can make a more concrete critique to point the mistakes or problems you have observed in this method so the ones are following it can improve their Samskrit knowledge, as finally we are her to improve and help each other to learn. I am not sending this message to the list but if you think may be interesting you can do it. Awaiting your news, best regards, L. Fernando del Canto > From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Thu Apr 10 21:05:34 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 11:05:34 -1000 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029542.23782.17452439174120014446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > dc> Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you > > dc> refrain from, as the > > dc> South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." > > > > Is this South Indian? I've never heard it. Perhaps you mean Tamilian? > > Oh, yes :)! Its said even in Telugu, and have heard some of my Malayali > friends saying something 'very' similar. Yes, it's used jokingly in Tamil. It's also used jokingly in Marathi, to mean "saying something obscene". Regards, Raja. From HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 10 11:22:49 1997 From: HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 11:22:49 +0000 Subject: abhi/abhIh - Interesting Word/s in Sanskrit - an Analysis [Long] Message-ID: <161227029528.23782.4786862588980443564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:55 AM 4/10/97 +0000, you wrote: > >On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > >> >> 10 abhinava-shankara: According to the annals of Heads of >> the Sanctuary (Matha) in Kanchi-kamakoti, there were four >> Shankaras after the Acharya Sri Shankara. The thity-eigth >> Head is this Swamiji Shankara. As he traveled round the >> country several times like the original preceptor and >> vigorously propagated the ideals of Advaita, he was nick- >> named as 'abhinava-shankara' ( died circa 841AD). >> > >If "original preceptor" refers to the Adi Sankara who wrote commentaries >to the upanishads etc., then that preceptor lived in the 7th or 8th >century AD. It is difficult to believe that within one century, there were >four other incarnations of Sankara, and that the fifth one called >abhinava-Sankara died in 841 AD. It is certainly strange that vAcaspati >miSra I, the author of bhAmatI, who must have been a close contemporary, >seems to be completely unaware of this 'vigorous propagator of advaita >ideals'. > >However, there *was* one fairly recent sannyAsin who was popularly called >abhinava-Sankara, but he was not connected to the Kanchi Matha. His >dIkshA name was rAma brahmAnanda tIrtha. He wrote a commentary >(SrIrudrabhAshyam) to the rudram, which was published in 1962 by the Vani >Vilas Press, Srirangam. > >S. Vidyasankar > > > Dear Shri VidyAshankar, Thanks for your input on my article "abhi/abhIh". Here is some information on 'abhinava shanakara' : " abhinava-shankara: According to the annals of Heads of the Sanctuary (Matha) in Kanchi-kamakoti, it seems that there were four Shankaras after the Acharya Sri Shankara. Among these, Sri KripA-shankara is the ninth. Sri Ujjwala-shnakara is the fifteenth. Sri MUka-shanakara is the twnty-fifth. The thirty-eigth Head is this Swamiji 'abhinava-shankara'. He is the son of Sri Chidambara Vishvajit. As he traveled round the country several times like the original preceptor (Acharya Shankara), and vigorously propagated the ideals of Advaita and rejuvinated it, he was nick-named as 'abhinava-shankara'. He has another nick-name 'dhIra-shankara' because of his fierce debating character, a terror to his opponent in debate (prativAdi-bhayanakara). According to a book 'shakarEndu-vilAsa' by Sri vAkpati bhatta, his fame had spread even to other countries abroad like China, Turkey and Persia. He was the head of the kAma-kOti pITha for 52 years and attained nirvANa on AShADa shukla pratipat day of siddhArthi samvatsara of kali era 3941". I have quoted above extracts from the article by 'H.G' (= Prof. G Hanumanthachar, President, Sub-Committe on Philosophy (tattva-shAstra), Kannada Encyclopedia, Mysore, India). Taking a difference of 3101 years between kali & common era, his probable date would be 'died circa 840AD'. -Sincerely, Harihareswara PS: Is the book 'Sri rudra-bhAShya' you have quoted available? Where can I get a copy of it, please? Thanks! From dicko at netletter.com Thu Apr 10 18:08:41 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 14:08:41 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Classical Sanskrit Accent Message-ID: <161227029534.23782.349707073250204453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > dc> Oh, and BTW you'll probably be understood better if you > dc> refrain from, as the > dc> South-Indian idiom goes, "speaking in Sanskrit." > >Is this South Indian? I've never heard it. Perhaps you mean Tamilian? I'm not fluent in Tamil (which is a South-Indian language, last I heard), but my understanding is that the idiom suggests either speaking incomprehensibly or talking dirty, depending on the context. I don't really know how much the phrase is used in TN these days since I don't live there. Anyway, it was just a (very small) jest. As a rule, jesting falls rather flat when it has to be explained! --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From dicko at netletter.com Thu Apr 10 18:08:43 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 14:08:43 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029536.23782.16941108371493443548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >What disturbs me a bit in this discussion is that some people are writing about >Sanskrit as a "dead" or "read-only" language. Why are there daily news >broadcasts in Sanskrit on national Indian radio? Are they intended not to be >understood? How is it that I hear panditas from different parts of India >converse with each other in Sanskrit? It's really too bad in my opinion that Sanskrit hasn't much of a chance for adoption as a national language in India. English seems almost certain to continue playing that role (with certain parts of the academic and religious community excepted). It's interesting to fantasize, though, about how the "politicization of history" that has been discussed on this list from time to time would be effected if a larger portion of the population at large were able to speak and read Sanskrit. --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Apr 10 20:18:32 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 16:18:32 -0400 Subject: Q: sa.mjiiva~nasamaadhi Message-ID: <161227029537.23782.13856509688860153994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sa.mjiivana-. It is almost a universal belief among the followers of Maharashtrian Sants that J;naane;svara (more authentic name J;naana-deva) chose his hour of departure from ordinary mortals, entered the place where his samaadhi/monument is now located, and asked that it be covered. Under the covering slabs, he is believed by his devotees to be still 'living.' He is thus probably unique among the Sants in being held as one who departed from the ordinary world but did not cease to be a living presence *with the same body.* The place of his samaadhi is considered to be jaag.rta or 'alive, charged with his saintly presence' (which is not unusual in the case of Sants) in an immediate and physical sense (which, however, is unusual). J;naana-deva devotees do not speak of his death. In fact, some officials of the Sa.msthaana and many Aa..landii locals objected to the 'death' part when J;naana-deva's periodwas specified in a publication of the Indian Philosophical Congress (held at Pune in Nov 96) with something like 'birth 1275 A.D., death 1296 A.D.' Thus, J;naana-deva departs sajiiva/sajiivana and remains sajiiva/sajiivana. In a similar vein, the 19th century saint RAmalinga ADigaL (popularly known as VaLLalAr) is said to have asked his disciples to lock him in a house... and later disappeared without a trace... the house where he was "sublimated" is still a site of pilgrimage and is located in VaDalUr near Neyveli in TN. -Srini. From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Apr 10 21:31:55 1997 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 16:31:55 -0500 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029543.23782.14557070403086790176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless Knowledge] wrote: > > Pleasant to hear; I for one would love to be able to write and converse in > Sanskrit :-) it is hard to do from books, or from teachers who don't > themselves have that proficiency, though. About the 'simplified' Sanskrit: > if it is something like BASIC English, which your wording implies; either > you learn the real thing, or it is another thing that should be called by > another name. > A brief clarification: The 'simple' Sanskrit taught by Hindu Seva Pratishtanam (Sanskrita Bharati) in Bangalore is not exactly the same as C.K. Ogden's BASIC English (which was supposed to rely on ca. 700 'primitive' lexemes to construct an infinite number of BASIC sentences). Rather, the simplification has involved a certain amount of lexical levelling (i.e., reduction of synonymous roots, etc.), simplification of the nominal declensional system (instrumental and dative, I think, are replaced by various prepositional constructions), the aorist has been thrown out (as too complicated and cumbersome), and the past tense is usally expressed using nominalized verbs (e.g., past passive and active participles in -ta and -tavant), rather than imperfect or perfect finite conjugated verbs. There have been other simplifications and "register levellings" but I can't remember them off the top of my head. It's still the same language as "real" Sanskrit, inasmuch as "purified" Tamil is the same language as "non-purified/Sanskritized" Tamil (although that may indeed not be an appropriate analogy). Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Apr 10 20:50:06 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 16:50:06 -0400 Subject: Website for _INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES_ Message-ID: <161227029540.23782.8838139760371348353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Sushil Mittal A website for the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is now available at the following URL address: The site contains the following: 1. Aims and Scope 2. The Board of Editors 3. Contents of the Inaugural Issue 4. Information for Subscribers 5. Information for Authors 6. Information for Advertisers 7. Library Recommendation Form 8. Editorial and Publisher Address 9. Please Send Us Your Comments _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ (ISSN 1022-4556) is published three times a year through World Heritage Press Inc by the International Institute of India Studies. The website has been prepared by Gene Thursby of the University of Florida. Permission is freely given to link to other web pages without change to its contents. Links should acknowledge the source. From bpj at netg.se Thu Apr 10 15:21:34 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 17:21:34 +0200 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029531.23782.12303292815540324860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:54 10.4.1997 +0100, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit > >What disturbs me a bit in this discussion is that some people are writing about >Sanskrit as a "dead" or "read-only" language. Why are there daily news >broadcasts in Sanskrit on national Indian radio? Are they intended not to be >understood? How is it that I hear panditas from different parts of India >converse with each other in Sanskrit? And I have done the same, speaking with >scholars from Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat, because I speak no Telugu and >Gujarati. I see and hear scholars from far-off parts of India come to Mysore to >work in the Oriental Research Institute, and they discuss their matters with >the Mysorean employees of the institute in Sanskrit. Admirable. Are there any dictionaries of Sanskrit terms for modern concepts? I feel that my point has been grossly misunderstood. To begin with I was speaking specifically of western students whose only requirement is to master reading classical Sanskrit texts -- the incentive and opportunity to actually learn to _produce_ Sanskrit mostly lacking --, secondly I did not advocate a general laxity with regard to pronunciation, rather the aim of _as_clear_a_pronunciation_as_possible_with_as_little_strain_as_possible,_and _as_close_to_the_native_language_as_possible_, in place of a "historically correct" laboratory-product; a teacher's own clear pronunciation, optimized to the contrastive needs of the particular linguistic background of the students, which may or may not agree in particulars with any one Indic or "historical pronunciation.. If western Sanskrit teachers take the trouble to look up an Indic model, among the several available, that suits best the linguistic habits of their students' mother-tung, so much the better, but they should then make the effort to master it _themselves_, rather than relying on a tape of an Indian recitation. (I would for example imagine that a South Indian pronunciation be more accessible for Finnish students, a Marathi or Hindi one for Swedes. Does anyone have any idea of the contrastive properties of different Indic languages as compared to different western ones?) I fully agree that the three main points are (1)vowel quantity/heaviness, (2)retroflexion, (3)aspiration. As for retroflexion it can generally be learnt, especially if an apico-cacuminal articulation is permissible, as it is in Sanskrit. With the vowels I believe we will have to live with an individual and substrate conditioned variation, so that some will realize the distinction as stress or quality (or both) rather than quantity. After all the main thing is that the distinction is not lost. With aspiration the problem is to make people aware of it and able to control it consciously. I have tried to teach Finns learning Swedish to apply it, and even a Swede learning Finnish not to apply it, which was equally hard. Some grasp the distinction easily -- maybe with the help of a candle or holding the back of the hand in front of the mouth -- with others it just never clicks: they rise the pitch of their voice instead. I must admit that I have no first hand experience of teaching _Sanskrit_, but my experience as pronunciation tutor for people learning Swedish as a foreign language has shown me that an optimally clear and understandable pronunciation that still varies from any native pronunciation is often preferable to the results of a miscarriaged attempt to effect a native pronunciation. >Some Westerners may decide to ignore these facts, or for some reason decide >that they do not need / want the possibility of communication through Sanskrit. >But the fact remains that Sanskrit, also spoken Sanskrit, is not conveniently >categorizable as either "living" or "dead". It is as undead as Latin was in >Europe till recent times (and medieval Latin in, e.g., Scandinavia was not >identical to that in, e.g., Iberia, also not in spelling, but nevertheless it >remained in profitable use). Agreed. In fact I correspond in Latin with a person in Hungary, because it is the only language in which we are about equally proficient, and it is great fun too. :-) >In the worst case, in a conversation, you simply ask your interlocutor to >repeat what he said when his pronunciation is difficult for you. The kind of >people who speak Sanskrit tend to be of good will! (But it is better to use >_real_ Sanskrit, not the 'simplified' Hindutva-Sanskrit of the ten-day crash >courses from Bangalore, which is nowadays also offered in North America.) Pleasant to hear; I for one would love to be able to write and converse in Sanskrit :-) it is hard to do from books, or from teachers who don't themselves have that proficiency, though. About the 'simplified' Sanskrit: if it is something like BASIC English, which your wording implies; either you learn the real thing, or it is another thing that should be called by another name. Syaat tubhyam sarvam mangalam!! Ashvamitro Vagiishvaradaanah (aka Philip Jonsson/Ngawang Dzyiyn-pa) ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Apr 10 22:41:23 1997 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 17:41:23 -0500 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029546.23782.15814443662210633597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A representative from the Sa.msk.rta Bhaaratii was in Iowa City a month or so ago, teaching "spoken Sanskrit" to a relatively enthusiastic group of perhaps 30 or 40 people. The size is in and of itself newsworthy. It consisted of NRI engineers, medical personnel, etc. (perhaps 2/3), a few of my students, and a few others from outside (several from the Fairfield, IA, TM community). I attended only one of the five sessions that ran from Friday evening to Sunday afternoon. My impression is that the class was targeted to NRI's, people who had command of a certain amount of common vocabulary. The instructor was very active, very enthusiastic, with no evident political agendas (though I have heard from Adi Hastings that they are indeed funded by the RSS). As far as pronunciation goes, again, because of the target audience, little was done to drill or correct, and the non-Indians were clearly groping. The delicate pronunciation issues, such as those Robert Zydenbos mentioned, were not addressed. Among the grammatical simplifications, adding to the list Adi Hastings mentioned, was the complete non-recognition of duals. I would venture to guess that the class did little for the students except provide them with a sense of cultural recognition and identity, at least among the NRI's (something I can well appreciate out here amidst the cornfields); as for the others, I would guess that most if not all was quickly forgotten in the absence of follow-up. Nevertheless, it forced me to consider for the umpteen thousandth time the shortcomings of the oversystematized pedagogy we indulge in here in the universities. Everyone who teaches Skt is no doubt at their wits end constantly with regard to their primer of choice, no matter how good it might be. For my own part, I have decided to introduce 15 or 20 minutes of conversational Skt to the tail end of my 1 hour and 50 minute 1st year class (twice a week). For that I have had to introduce a few exceedingly common verbs such as aap and k.r that would not come until just about lesson 30, similarly numerals, and so on. But the students are enjoying the change. Fred Smith Univ. of Iowa From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu Apr 10 22:12:47 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 18:12:47 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029545.23782.2192780065945422366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in Sanskrit", it means he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking double-Dutch. Edwin From thompson at jlc.net Thu Apr 10 23:40:05 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 19:40:05 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029549.23782.8319021299681289354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in Sanskrit", it means >he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the >equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking double-Dutch. >Edwin Well, Edwin, I don't know what "speaking double-Dutch" means exactly, and I don't know Arabic either, but my guess is that "speaking in Sanskrit" in Arabic means "uttering mantras", since that is what Sanskrit is famous for around the globe...no? cf. "mandarin" [= mantrin], etc. George From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Thu Apr 10 23:44:26 1997 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 19:44:26 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029551.23782.2775547664082913801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in Sanskrit", it means >he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the >equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking double-Dutch. >Edwin At least in the States our equivalents are "Sounds Chinese to me" or "It's Greek to me" (thbe latter usually for written things). Dan Lusthaus Flordia State University From thompson at jlc.net Fri Apr 11 01:27:00 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 21:27:00 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029552.23782.6534681428963175034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have to confess that I have only the crudest understanding of how weaving works, so in looking over BAU 3.6, I was intrigued by Patrick Olivelle's conclusion that the "third term" upon which the weaving takes place must be the warp, and also his assertion that "this meaning also makes sense because the warp is the fixed and permanent element, while the woof represents movement and change." Is it reasonable to assume that the Skt. term that Patrick has in mind is ta'ntu, and that the RV phrase Rta'sya ta'ntu stands behind this BAU passage? I am aware that in the next BrAhmaNa [BAU 3.7] use is made of the term sUtra instead, but the metaphor there seems to be that of a string of beads, as Patrick suggests. On the other hand, the "ota and prota" theme returns in BAU 3.8, along with the term brahmodya. It may seem far-fetched to some of you, but I think that there is a significant link between the "to and fro" of the weft and the "to and fro" of the brahmodya [about which see my forthcoming article in JAOS 117.1]. The term ta'ntu is typically glossed as "thread" ["Faden"] or "warp" ["Aufzug"] [see in particular, Grassmann, Geldner, Renou]. I have always been struck by the ambiguity of such glosses. But having reviewed its use in the RV in light of this recent discussion [and a brief scan of Elizabeth Barber's book *Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years*, 1994, W. W. Norton; she is both an Indo- Europeanist and a specialist in textile history], I think I see better now what is meant by the term ta'ntu. A striking feature of the RV passages in which the term occurs is the *very* frequent association of ta'ntu with forms of its cognate verb tan-. What such collocations show, it seems to me, is that ta'ntu as string or thread refers to thread *stretched taut* [tata'], precisely like the threads of a warp. Besides the association with Rta' and yajJa' already mentioned, ta'ntu is also twice associated with the Vedic poet, kavi' [kave'H...ta'ntu... at 10.5.3, cf. also 159.4]. So the metaphorical concept "thread or warp of speech" seen at RV 6.9 and 10.71 is well attested elsewhere in the RV. Of course the taut threads of a warp [ta'ntu tata'] imply a framework or loom, without which there is no warp [as Barber, with her first-hand knowledge of the art, attests]. But the Vedic word for "loom" -- ve'man? or is this "yarn'? -- isn't even attested in the RV. Perhaps someone can identify the [or a] Vedic term for "loom" for me.... Might the term ta'ntu also suggest "loom", in particular as framework for weaving? My over-arching concern is this: there is a well-known motif, in the proto-philosophy of Vedic, of asserting a "network" [ta'ntu"] of correspondances [bandhus] between the Vedic macrocosm and the microcosm. It seems to me that the vocabulary of weaving has played a significant role in this philosophy. Does anyone have further insight into this central Vedic motif? By the way, the IE vocabulary for weaving [cf. IE cognates of ve-] is discussed at length in Ruediger Schmitt's thorough *Dichtung und Dichtersprache in Indogermanischer Zeit*, as well as the anthology edited by him, *Indogermanische Dichtersprache*. There is thus a strong presumption, it seems to me, that the Vedic metaphor is an IE inheritance. Thanks in advance for comments, etc, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Thu Apr 10 20:34:26 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 22:34:26 +0200 Subject: saMbuddhi rhythm (question) Message-ID: <161227029539.23782.6038132221772365941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would something like (say) 'mAdhava, pravishanti!' (Madhav, they're going in!) normally scan: 'mAdhava | pravishanti!' G L L L L G L or 'mAdhava pravishanti!' G L G L L G L From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Thu Apr 10 22:53:58 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 00:53:58 +0200 Subject: Samskrita Bharati Sanskrit (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029548.23782.14863152743580794281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adi Hastings wrote: >The 'simple' Sanskrit taught by Hindu Seva Pratishtanam (Sanskrita >Bharati) in Bangalore is not exactly the same as C.K. Ogden's BASIC >English (which was supposed to rely on ca. 700 'primitive' lexemes to >construct an infinite number of BASIC sentences). Rather, the >simplification has involved a certain amount of lexical levelling (i.e., >reduction of synonymous roots, etc.), simplification of the nominal >declensional system (instrumental and dative, I think, are replaced by >various prepositional constructions), the aorist has been thrown out (as >too complicated and cumbersome), and the past tense is usally expressed >using nominalized verbs (e.g., past passive and active participles in -ta >and -tavant), rather than imperfect or perfect finite conjugated verbs. >There have been other simplifications and "register levellings" but I >can't remember them off the top of my head. Is this "simplified" Sanskrit considered by Samskrita Bharati to be only a step towards the acquisition of "full" Sanskrit or is it con- sidered to be a goal in itself, maybe a way to bypass English (in many cases I would assume a fairly "simplified" English too) for All- Indian communication? From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 11 05:03:35 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 01:03:35 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029554.23782.2229396574463152906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-10 22:09:06 EDT, you write: << What such collocations show, it seems to me, is that ta'ntu as string or thread refers to thread *stretched taut* [tata'], precisely like the threads of a warp. >> This is precisely the meaning of Dravidian root 'pA' meaning 'to stretch, to spread' as I discussed. As for the name for 'loom', please check AV 10.8.42. Whitney's translation of 10. 8.42 reads, " A certain pair of maidens, of diverse form, weave, betaking themselves to it, the six-pegged web; the one draws forth the threads (ta'ntu), the other sets [them]; they wrest not off (apa-vRj), they go not to an end." I do not know the Sanskrit text. (What I have access to is just the translation.) The pegs seem to imply some structure. In his notes Whitney says, "A nearly related verse is found in T.B. (ii.5.53): dve' sva'sArAu vayatas ta'ntram etat sanAta'nam vi'tatam Sa'NmayUkham: a'va 'nyA'Gs ta'ntun kira'to dhatto' anyA'n nA' 'pa vRjyA'te (? both text and comm. have in the Calc. ed. nA'SapRjyA'Ate [and in the Poona ed. nA'vapRjyA'te]) na' gamAte a'ntam; this is a preferable version especially of c. We have to resolve tan-tR-am in order to make a full triSTubh. [The TB. comment makes the verse refer to day and night: cf. RV.i.113.3.] <> I would very much appreciate if you could let me know if these texts refer to any word for 'warp' derived from 'ta'n' or other words meaning 'to stretch'? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 11 04:21:32 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 03:21:32 -0100 Subject: simplified Sanskrit (was: pronunciation of sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029582.23782.9726632852882255787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 10 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lfdelcanto at redestb.es) le> From: Leon Fernando Del Canto le> Subject: pronunciation of sanskrit le> I am not sending this message to the list but if you think le> may be interesting you can do it. But your message came to me via the list anyway, so I will give a few points here. le> Namaskar Robert and thanks for your defense of spoken le> samskrit. I agree le> with you in some points, however I would like you to clarify le> the following ones: le> 1. Re. Latin: I would like you to know that it is still used le> as spoken language in some scholars circles [...] le> involved in Roman History, Law, language and Philosophy le> teaching in the European Universities mainly. For instance, [...] le> many of the international le> conferences in Roman Law are hold in Latin. This is nice to know. I did not want to go into non-Indological detail, but another obvious example is the Roman Catholic church, where an active use of Latin is still cultivated. le> 2. Re. your appreciation on > it is better to use real_ le> Sanskrit, not le> the 'simplified' Hindutva-Sanskrit of the ten-day crash le> courses from Bangalore> it seems a bit offensive to me, le> I would appreciate very much if you can make a more le> concrete critique le> to point the mistakes or problems you have observed in this le> method so le> the ones are following it can improve their Samskrit le> knowledge, as le> finally we are her to improve and help each other to learn. I hope you understand that it is far from my intention to offend eager learners of Sanskrit in Spain, o en otra parte, who have enthusiastically attended such courses. (I also hope that the other list members will forgive me for a detailed explanation of what I find offensive about that kind of Sanskrit.) My main objections to that "simplified Sanskrit" are these: (a) the dual number has been discarded completely, (b) the second person has in effect also been discarded, because it is substituted by the stilted "bhavaan", "bhavatii" etc. with the verb in the third person, (c) the verb system has been reduced to a bare minimum, (d) almost all sandhi has been discarded, except for certain frequent combinations (e.g. ko 'pi). These are my most serious objections. Matters such as some of the neologisms in the vocabulary, and some examples of ugly grammatical usage are debatable (e.g. a sentence such as "aham idaaniim aagatavaan": why not the simple "aagata.h"?). You may ask why I find these matters objectionable. I have attended such a course in Mysore, and I have seen how the teachers claim to give their students access to "devabhaa.saa" - and indeed, more than wanting to use Sanskrit actively, the majority of the students hope that they can read classical literature in the original language. But that classical literature is of course in the non-simplified language. It contains words in the dual (verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives), uses second-person pronouns and verb forms, uses the entire range of verb forms (the various forms for expressing the past in different nuances have been thrown out of the simplified Sanskrit), and if the reader does not know the rules of sandhi, he has a big problem. All these difficulties also occur when one reads contemporary Sanskrit writing by authors who were educated in the traditional manner (i.e., the vast majority among the limited number of people who write in Sanskrit), and also when one speaks Sanskrit with the majority of people who are able to speak in that language. These people will most probably be able to follow the simplified / impoverished / modernized Sanskrit; but if the other speaker (i.e. the student of this neo-Sanskrit) does not know how a dual, second person, imperfect etc. sound, or what these look like in writing, or if he does not know that they exist, then I foresee difficulties in mutual comprehension. When I mention my objections to those who propagate this new Sanskrit, I always hear the same reply: yes, everything that I say is correct, but their aim is to popularize Sanskrit and to remove the general fear that learning Sanskrit is excessively difficult; they want to help people cross a threshold, after which the students can continue studying on their own. But that fear is suspended. I personally know people who have gone through the ten-day crash course and afterwards picked up a Sanskrit grammar book to learn more: and when they saw what classical Sanskrit really is, they quickly gave up. I do not know how many of the students at all try to continue their study. The Hindu Seva Pratishthanam apparently has no intention of guiding their students further towards real Sanskrit - which in a way makes sense, since it appears that Hindutva does not really represent a genuine interest in the past. If anyone in the West wishes to learn Sanskrit without becoming a philologist, there are other, better methods. Apart from those which have been devised by academicians in the West, there is, for instance, the system which has been developed in the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry, which aims at being a simple method without simplifying the language (cf. their publications like _Samsk.rta.m bhaa.saamahai_ and the textbook with a title like _Sarala-sa.msk.rta-sara.ni.h_). One of the persons connected with that ongoing project has also written an article in which he points out the shortcomings of the HSP project. Personally, I strongly sympathize with the idea of propagating the active use of Sanskrit. And presumably some will argue that HSP Sanskrit is better than none at all. But when better alternatives exist, I think we should prefer them. - Robert Zydenbos From wtrimble at mail.slc.edu Fri Apr 11 13:15:05 1997 From: wtrimble at mail.slc.edu (W Trimble) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 08:15:05 -0500 Subject: Concept of text Message-ID: <161227029559.23782.2265178751249816447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (If there is an >Indo-European tradition of using the 'warp' as the basis for text, then we >may have to re-work the hypothesis.) There is always the possibility that all of these derivations are not related etymologically, but pragmatically. Perhaps a member of the list familiar with Hebrew or other Semitic languages that have such a strong relationship with *The Book* could contribute some valuable similarities or differences. From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 11 14:28:56 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 10:28:56 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029562.23782.8594206768294571114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-10 22:09:06 EDT, thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) writes: << I have to confess that I have only the crudest understanding of how weaving works, so in looking over BAU 3.6, I was intrigued by Patrick Olivelle's conclusion that the "third term" upon which the weaving takes place must be the warp, and also his assertion that "this meaning also makes sense because the warp is the fixed and permanent element, while the woof represents movement and change." >> The link between 'pA', the warp, and 'pA', the verse, in Dravidian gets even more interesting. The fundamental metrical unit of Tamil prosody is called 'acai' which also means 'to move, to shake' (DED 39) and 'to tie, to bind' (DED 43). Regards S. Palaniappan From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 11 10:03:02 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 12:03:02 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029556.23782.12935015785846507771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:44 11.4.1997 +0100, George Thompson wrote: >>In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in Sanskrit", it means >>he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the >>equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking double-Dutch. >>Edwin > >Well, Edwin, I don't know what "speaking double-Dutch" means exactly, and I >don't know Arabic either, but my guess is that "speaking in Sanskrit" in >Arabic means "uttering mantras", since that is what Sanskrit is famous for >around the globe...no? cf. "mandarin" [= mantrin], etc. > >George To me the South Indian "speaking in Sanskrit" associates most to "excuse my French!" BPJ ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 11 10:03:07 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 12:03:07 +0200 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029557.23782.12717502027048188556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:52 11.4.1997 +0100, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >>In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in Sanskrit", it means >>he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the >>equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking double-Dutch. >>Edwin > >At least in the States our equivalents are "Sounds Chinese to me" or "It's >Greek to me" (thbe latter usually for written things). > >Dan Lusthaus >Flordia State University AFAIK these expressions are pan-Occidental. We even got them in Swedish, though "sounds like Finnish to me" and "looks like Russian to me" would be culturally more appropriate. BPJ ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Apr 11 20:05:22 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 13:05:22 -0700 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029575.23782.7100531174731235194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is one of my pet peeves. There is an increased tendency in many Sanskrit publications from India, to form the past tense by addition of sma to the present. Sometimes, whole paragraphs are filled with constructions like karoti sma, vasati sma, ...... Does this reflect an unconscious desire among many Indians to recast their past in terms of the present?!! S. Vidyasankar From jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Apr 11 18:15:22 1997 From: jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 13:15:22 -0500 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029568.23782.13794703272363435066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Philip: it may originally be 'Maalinii', (first a and last i long), also in modern time 'Maalanii'--the garlanded one and similar meanings. Patrick Olivelle >Dear Indologists, > >a friend mailed me and asked: > >> >>Hello Philip. >> >>My friend "adopted" (ie sent money to) an Indian little >>girl, whose name is Melleny. >>Do you have any idea of what this name can mean? >>The -y sounds quite anglophone. > >I'm sure several of you find this an easy question to answer... > >Regards, > >Philip > > > >************************************************* >* B.Philip Jonsson * >* Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * >* Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * >************************************************* *********************************** Patrick Olivelle Director, Center for Asian Studies Chair, Department of Asian Studies WCH 4.134 (Mail Code G9300) University of Texas Austin, TX 78712-1194 USA *********************************** From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 11 18:21:12 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 14:21:12 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029569.23782.11114159458894045674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have my own pet peeves about modern Sanskrit, one in particular being a tendency to try to ape English word construction or syntax. But then this is not unique to Samskrita Bharati. `antaaraa.s.triya', which is an atrocity as a Sanskrit word, was not introduced by them [I would appreciate knwing who started this and when]. Neither was the calque of the English progressive tenses. What I find most distasteful is the apparently strong dislike of Sanskritizing/Indianizing the phonology of borrowed words. ``kaaphii sviikarotu'' is bad Sanskrit irrespective of what gender you give to `kaaphii'. Tamilians at any rate, and may be all South Indians would instinctively shorten the final `ii'. So would Sanskrit speakers, assuming that they give `kaaphii' the `natural' gender of neuter. Avoidance of such phonological changes, and looking down on those who use such pronunciations, is a trait that is typically associated with people of a certain social type and education, and a trait that should be discouraged, not encouraged. I would also agree that Samskrita Bharati's work is directed more towards strengthening the feeling of cultural continuity among urbanized Indians (in India or elsewhere) and to lessen the feelings of alienation. But the tone of the some of the criticisms makes me wonder what is Sanskrit anyway and who owns it? Adi Hastings >The 'simple' Sanskrit taught by Hindu Seva Pratishtanam (Sanskrita >Bharati) in Bangalore is not exactly the same as C.K. Ogden's BASIC >English (which was supposed to rely on ca. 700 'primitive' lexemes to >construct an infinite number of BASIC sentences). Doesn't Baisc English also involve lexical leveling? The old joke about `blood, sweat and tears' coming as `blood, body water and eyewash' comes to mind. >Rather, the simplification has involved a certain amount of lexical >levelling (i.e., reduction of synonymous roots, etc.), >simplification of the nominal declensional system (instrumental and >dative, I think, are replaced by various prepositional constructions), This well predates Samskrita Bharati. Speyer, in his Sanskrit Syntax, notes the frequent use of copmounds in -muulena, -maarge.na, -dvaaraa instead of tritiiyaa (not `the instrumental'; what is the instrument in `dadhnaudanam'?) etc in `Modern Sanskrit', presumably 18th and 19th century Sanskrit. Use of -artham, -nimittaaya etc. for caturtii is not new either. The various uses of the suffix -tas (for example, `tenaikadik')suggests that originally it had a different connotation from ablative. Yet it had become synonymous with the ablative quite early. >the aorist has been thrown out (as too complicated and cumbersome), >and the past tense is usally expressed using nominalized verbs >(e.g., past passive and active participles in -ta and -tavant), >rather than imperfect or perfect finite conjugated verbs. I had to reread the header to make sure that the writer is not D. W. Whitney. Wasn't the aorist out of general use umpteen centuries ago? And wasn't the replacement the past participle in -ta? The only thing different about S. B. Sanskrit is the relative popularity of -tavant. I guess South Indians do not like ergative constructions :-) There is a more serious question here: How far is medival Sanskrit, especially the Sanskrit of commentaries, `Real Sanskrit' and how much of it is `MIA with Sanskrit phonology'? Is Marathi or Hindi based Sanskrit somehow more `real' than Kannada based Sanskrit? This kind of thing goes quite far back. Many vaartikas have the form `... iti cet ...'. This is dead ringer for Tamil `e_n_taal' (`enRAl' in ITRANS). [I not claiming that Katyayana's first language was Tamil. Only that the dominant language of his childhood was likely Dravidian. Please note that `dominant' <> `first'.] Interestingly enough, this is not so common in Patanjali when he is not repeating vartikas. Now, which is `Real Sanskrit'? I am reminded of a question which was raised several months ago, about the use of `m' instead of anusvaara before p, ph, b, bh, m and v. Now praati"saakhyas universally recommend `m' before the first five and nasalized v (closer to m than to anusvaara) before v. Panini marks this with `vaa'; Kiparsky has produced strong evidence that `vaa' marks the preferred option. Yet there are those who would have us believe that the use of m is somehow substandard. Which is `Real Sanskrit'? I think that I will stop here, though much remains to be said. Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Fri Apr 11 13:30:36 1997 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 15:30:36 +0200 Subject: Amazing PataJjali, lakSaNa, and vyAkaraNa Message-ID: <161227029560.23782.3809718759931209955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:27 09/04/1997 BST, S. Palaniappan wrote: >Scholars of Sanskrit grammar may not be aware of this. But PataJjali plays a >pivotal role in dating the Tamil literature. Based on the use of the word >'ilakkaNam' by tolkAppiyar and an explanation for the location of the word >with semantic significance when two words form a compound, a Tamil scholar by >name Vaiyapuri Pillai and following him Kamil Zvelebil date tolkAppiyar after >PataJjali. (Apparently, PataJjali was the one to introduce the word "lakSaNa" >in the sense of grammar and he was the one who introduced the classification >of compounds into pUrvapadArtha, uttarapadArtha, anyapadArtha, and >ubhayapadArtha. Vaiyapuri Pillai, in his discussion however, quotes Katyayana >as saying "lakSya lakSane vyakaraNam" for which vArttika PataJjali is >supposed to say "sabdo lakSya sUtram lakSaNam"!) Since the language of the >Classical Tamil texts is supposed to be close to what is described by >tolkAppiyam, Zvelebil says that there could hardly have been a wide gap of >time between the two. > >Vaiyapuri Pillai and Zvelebil, when they saw similar expressions in >tolkAppiyam and mahAbhASya, they did not consider the possibility that both >could be drawing on a common tradition. They simply assumed that Tamil >borrowed from Sanskrit. ............ Since you mention Vaiyapuri Pillai, you should also say that the date he proposes for _tolkAppiyam_ is the second half of the 5th century A.D. (see his _History of Tamil Language and Literature_, P.48, second revised edition, 1988, NCBH, Madras) which is 600 years later than pataJjali whereas Zvelebil tries to explain that there is an original version of _tolkAppiyam_ which is pre-cangam and a final editing and redaction which took place in the 5th Cent. A.D. (see _The Smile of Murugan_, 1973, Leiden, E.J. Brill, P.143-146, where he gives his "first conclusion" and his "second, but not [...]final conclusion" on the date of _tolkAppiyam_) Regards -- Jean-Luc Chevillard From Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch Fri Apr 11 16:23:53 1997 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch (Francois Obrist) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 16:23:53 +0000 Subject: Reply to inquiry about Kamalasila Message-ID: <161227029566.23782.3820019254436276857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the list, Sorry for the time I took answering the thread I launched during february about the translation of the 2nd Bhavanakrama of Kamalasila. Thanks to all for your help with my query on this translation. I should have been more precise and tell you about the references I already had at hand. Sorry for that. Besides the Catalogs of important librairies and usual Buddhist bibliographies, I actually found the biggest number of references in P. Pfandt 'Mahayana Texts translated into Western Languages', Koeln, 1986 (as mentioned by P. Wyzlic), that have to be supplemented with the 'Guide to Buddhist Philosophy' of Frank E. Reynolds, Boston, 1981. Powers's 'The Yogacara School of Buddhism' doesn't mention any other translation of Bhavanakrama. Apart of the translations in Russian an hindi mentioned by Tattvarthi and Wyzlic, for the ones who are interested and have not the bibliographies mentioned above, hereby follows the references to the translations into Western languages of the first and third Bhavanakrama. 1st Bhavanakrama : 1. La progression dans la meditation (bhavanakrama of Kamalasila). Trad. du sanscrit et du tibetain par Jose van den Broek. Bruxelles, 1977. (traduit sur le texte edite par Tucci dans 'Minor Buddhist Texts', Roma, 1958 donc = 1er Bhavanakrama.) 2. Kamalasila. - Bhavanakrama translated by Stephen Beyer in 'Buddhist Experience', pp 99-115, Encino, 1974. 3. (Portions of the first Bhavanakrama) Kajima, Yuichi. 'Later Madhyamikas on epistemology and Meditation'. Kiyota 133-140 (!, unable to identify this reference). 4. Gomez, Luis O. Kamalasila. - Primer tratado de cultivo graduado (Purvabhavanakrama) (parte I). Traducion y notas. In 'Dialogos, Revista del Departemento de filosofia, Universidad de Puerto Rico'. Ano 11, numero 29-30 (noviembre 1977), 177-224. 3rd Bhavanakrama : 1. Lamotte, Etienne. Le troisieme Bhavanakrama de Kamalasila, traduction de la version tibetaine. In Paul Demieville ' Le Concile de Lhasa', Paris, 1952. 2. Olson, Robert F. and Masao Ichishima. An English translation of the Third Process of Meditative Actualization by Kamalasila. In 'Taisho Daigaku sogo Bukkyo kenkukyo nenpo', 1 (1979), 241 (17) 205 (53) (reference not controled. Pagination !!!) 3. Penza Corrado. Il terzo bhavanakrama di Kamalasila (traduzione). In 'Rivista degli studi orientali' (Roma), 39, 1964, 211-242. 4. Gomez, Luis O. Kamalasila. - Ultimo tratado de cultivo graduado (Uttarabhavanakrama). Traduccion y notas. In 'Dialogos, Revista del Departemento de filosofia, Universitad de Puerto Rico'. Ano 8, numero 23 (noviembre 1972), 85-137. A German tranlation has been published in 'Zeitschrift der deutschen Morgenlandischen Gesellschaft', 115, 1965, 309-319 (but I cannot say which Bhavanakrama it is, having not seing the book). I didn't find any mention of posthumous publication of Obermiller and I try to get in touch with R. Hayes privately on that matter. Thanks again. Francois Francois Obrist Section de langues et civilisations orientales Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne CH-1015 Lausanne e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 11 15:47:55 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 17:47:55 +0200 Subject: Concept of text Message-ID: <161227029563.23782.18047326252189219222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:18 11.4.1997 +0100, W Trimble wrote: > (If there is an >>Indo-European tradition of using the 'warp' as the basis for text, then we >>may have to re-work the hypothesis.) > >There is always the possibility that all of these derivations are not >related etymologically, but pragmatically. Perhaps a member of the list >familiar with Hebrew or other Semitic languages that have such a strong >relationship with *The Book* could contribute some valuable similarities or >differences. In Old Norse the verb "hverfa" 'to spin' can be used of poetic activity, and the poem itself can be called "tha'ttr" 'thread'! Obviously spinning must be taken into consideration too; after all it is prerequisite to warping and weaving. Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 11 15:58:48 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 17:58:48 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029565.23782.1531249517596146759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, a friend mailed me and asked: > >Hello Philip. > >My friend "adopted" (ie sent money to) an Indian little >girl, whose name is Melleny. >Do you have any idea of what this name can mean? >The -y sounds quite anglophone. I'm sure several of you find this an easy question to answer... Regards, Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Fri Apr 11 18:51:54 1997 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 18:51:54 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Seeking lawyer in Germany Message-ID: <161227029571.23782.2867087800790277047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, today I received this message fom the Indian-German Society (Deutsch-Indische Gesellschaft). Maybe someone of you could help. >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:11:37 +0000 >From: Jiri Tucek >Organization: Bruker Analytik GmbH >To: df6i at hrzpub.th-darmstadt.de >Cc: jtu at bruker.de >Subject: Suche Rechtsanwalt spezialisiert auf Indische/Parsen Recht !!! > >Dear members, > >I'm looking for a lawyer in Germany who is specialised in Indian/parsi law. >A friend of mine has marital problems and wants to get a divorce. >Please, help me. > >She is also searching for a Parsi-community in Germany. There is supposed to be >one in Pforzheim (near Karlsruhe). Any information is welcome. > > Thank you for assistance > > Jiri Tucek >--- >Info-Liste der Deutsch-Indischen Gesellschaft >Zweiggesellschaft Darmstadt-Frankfurt >http://www.th-darmstadt.de/events/dig >Anmeldung: Mail an df6i at hrzpub.th-darmstadt.de > > Tobias ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //OM/ SARVE BHAVANTU SUKHINAH/ SARVE SANTU NIRAMAYAH/ SARVE BHADRANI PASYANTU/ MA KASCHIT DUKHA BHAG BHAVET/ OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mr. Tobias Grote-Beverborg Theodorstr. 370, 40472 Duesseldorf, Germany ph/fax: 0049-211-6581306 e-mail: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de grotebev at uni-koeln.de ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Fri Apr 11 18:52:10 1997 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 18:52:10 +0000 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029572.23782.5714197633951543882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>My friend "adopted" (ie sent money to) an Indian little >>girl, whose name is Melleny. >>Do you have any idea of what this name can mean? >>The -y sounds quite anglophone. Could it be an anglicising of Melanie?! From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Fri Apr 11 23:05:21 1997 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 19:05:21 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029579.23782.8707370709773671908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Here is one of my pet peeves. There is an increased tendency in many >Sanskrit publications from India, to form the past tense by addition of >sma to the present. Sometimes, whole paragraphs are filled with >constructions like karoti sma, vasati sma, ...... Does this reflect an >unconscious desire among many Indians to recast their past in terms of the >present?!! > >S. Vidyasankar see A.s.taadhyaayii la.t sme, aparok.e ca (3.2.118, 119). From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 11 21:24:24 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 20:24:24 -0100 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029580.23782.1540458274316516284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 10 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (bpj at netg.se) bs> From: bpj at netg.se (Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless bs> Knowledge]) bs> Subject: Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit bs> Are there any dictionaries of Sanskrit terms for bs> modern concepts? I have a small Kannada-Sanskrit dictionary which contains some neologisms. I also know of a pictorial Sanskrit dictionary for beginners with similar words. My impression is that for typically modern things (auto-rickshaws, buses, etc.) either English words are adapted, or whatever word is in current use in the modern language of the region. As for modern abstract terms (hermeneutics, deconstructionism et al.), they are simply not used. bs> Does anyone have any idea of the bs> contrastive properties of different Indic languages as bs> compared to different western ones?) I'm afraid this depends on the specific Indian and Western languages in question. bs> I fully agree that the three main points are (1)vowel bs> quantity/heaviness, (2)retroflexion, (3)aspiration. [...] bs> After all the main thing is that the distinction is not lost. bs> an optimally clear and understandable bs> pronunciation that still varies from any native bs> pronunciation is often bs> preferable to the results of a miscarriaged attempt to bs> effect a native pronunciation. This is indeed the most pragmatic course to take. It may not lead to an elegant or near-native pronunciation, but it is an important start. Bhadram bhuuyaat, - Robert Zydenbos From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 12 00:39:33 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 20:39:33 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029583.23782.7107385296667111746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> bs> From: bpj at netg.se (Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless bs> Knowledge]) bs> Subject: Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit bs> Are there any dictionaries of Sanskrit terms for bs> modern concepts? The best source for these are not Sanskrit dictionaries per se, but terminological and administrative dictionaries published by the various state governments for the regional languages. The Indian states are almost all, except perhaps Tamilnadu, involved in developing new replacement-terminologies in the local language and these are by and large Sanskritic in their derivation, though modern in their reference. In many regions these new terminologies get routinely used especially in the school textbooks, and through them they become accessible to the new generations. Modern Sanskrit simply borrows these terms back into Sanskrit usage. The use of newly coined Sanskrit terms for modern linguistics can be seen in a modern Sanskrit work like Dr. G.B. Palsule's book Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rta.m prati ("From IE to Sanskrit"). Sanskritic or pseudo-Sanskritic terms were used in Marathi science textbooks when I was in school. Thus, our textbooks used praa.navaayu for oxygen, natravaayu for nitrogen, karba-dvi-praa.nila-vaayu for Carbon-di-oxide, etc. I remember modern Sanskrit use of these terms on some occasions. The same happens with respect to administrative/civic terms like loka-sabhaa, raajya-sabhaa, vidhaana-sabhaa etc. One can hear these terms routinely used in Sanskrit on the daily All India Radio news broadcasts. Madhav Deshpande From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 12 01:07:54 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 21:07:54 -0400 Subject: simplified Sanskrit (was: pronunciation of sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029585.23782.10878068244002791471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In view of some of the latest discussion, I think it is absolutely necessary to distinguish the notions of modern Sanskrit from simplified/impoverished Sanskrit. Otherwise, we are bound to be saddled with some wrong impressions. For example, serious technical modern works in Sanskrit like Dr. Palsule's Yubhaata.h Sa.msk.rta.m Prati ("From IE to Sanskrit") are in modern Sanskrit, and yet not in the simplified/impoverished Sanskrit. Similarly, there is a huge amount of literary output in the form of modern Sanskrit poetry, dramas, and even epic length narratives on the lives of characters like Mahatma Gandhi, Lokamaanya Tilak, etc. which are basically ignored by modern western scholarship. Dr. Varnekar of Nagpur, a fine example of a modern Sanskrit poet, also published a fat volume in Marathi on the history of modern Sanskrit literature, which provides an account of hundreds of works in Sanskrit produced during the past few decades. Ashok Aklujkar and myself have also contributed both to poetry and narrative writings in modern Sanskrit, but I would be careful to distinguish our Sanskrit from the simplified/impoverished Sanskrit currently being popularized. The language of the high variety of modern Sanskrit literature is modern in part of its vocabulary, the world of reference, ideological concerns, but is not grammatically impoverished. The grammatical impoverishment of the simplified Sanskrit is part of a deliberate corporate decision to popularize Sanskrit among the masses, who are believed to be incapable of learning the full variety. The movement to popularize Sanskrit among the masses most often remains satisfied with having given its clients a sense of return to a putative pure/Vedic/Hindu linguistic environment, without sacrificing anything of the modern civilization, or putting in the intensive effort needed to acquire the full classical language. The movement is, from my observation of participants, a quasi religious/political/revivalist movement with appeal to modern educated Hindus aimed at dealing with their sense of alianation. While it seems to infuse certain individuals with a sense of return to roots, I do not know of anyone who has started with this simplified Sanskrit and moved on to the serious variety. Madhav Deshpande From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 11 22:23:28 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 21:23:28 -0100 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029589.23782.4142405385998521957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 10 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (dicko at netletter.com) dc> From: Dick Oliver dc> Subject: Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit dc> It's really too bad in my opinion that Sanskrit hasn't much dc> of a chance for adoption as a national language in India. I was under the impression that Sanskrit already is a national language: one of the many national languages which are recognized by the constitution. Which is why it is one of the languages used on all banknotes, etc. - Robert Zydenbos From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 11 22:28:30 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 21:28:30 -0100 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029591.23782.12439762843142004100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 10 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (efb3 at columbia.edu) ee> From: Edwin F Bryant ee> Subject: Re: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit ee> In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in ee> Sanskrit", it means ee> he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the ee> equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking ee> double-Dutch. ee> Edwin Oh my goodness... and here I am, a Dutch mother-tongue speaker who also speaks a bit of Sanskrit... :-) - Robert Zydenbos From Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch Fri Apr 11 19:51:35 1997 From: Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch (Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 21:51:35 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029574.23782.17915739650426251944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Philip wrote: >> >>My friend "adopted" (ie sent money to) an Indian little >>girl, whose name is Melleny. >>Do you have any idea of what this name can mean? >>The -y sounds quite anglophone. Patrick Olivelle's exegesis: Philip: it may originally be 'Maalinii', (first a and last i long), also in modern time 'Maalanii'--the garlanded one and similar meanings. Tobias surmised: Could it be an anglicising of Melanie?! Dear Philp. Patrick and Olivelle, I have a niece in Bangalore whose name is Melanie. Her friends write it in all possible ways: Malini, Melleny, Melony.... You know there are about 17 million christians in India and we were until some years ago forced to have an European saint's name at our baptism. I was for example baptised with the name "Boniface" which I changed to "Anand" when I was adult. The European missionaries just couldn't believe us when we said that we were going to be the first christian saints with names like "Krishnamoorthy" Ramagopalachari" "Janadhana" and so forth. And so were forced to have ghastly names like Victor, Caesar and Napoleon... We have difficulty to pronounce English names. Sorry. We make spelling mistakes. There is a beautiful restaurant in my home town Bangalore (on the Brigade Road !) called "Quality". But if you ever wish to find it, ask for "Kallatti". Philip, please send my greeting to sweet Melleny or to Patrick's Maalinii.. Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Route du Jura CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK From bpj at netg.se Fri Apr 11 21:07:30 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 23:07:30 +0200 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029577.23782.4259052138923036294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:14 11.4.1997 +0100, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >Here is one of my pet peeves. There is an increased tendency in many >Sanskrit publications from India, to form the past tense by addition of >sma to the present. Sometimes, whole paragraphs are filled with >constructions like karoti sma, vasati sma, ...... Does this reflect an >unconscious desire among many Indians to recast their past in terms of the >present?!! > >S. Vidyasankar Or not having to bother about tense formation... Is there any rule that governs the choice of the "sma" construction in Sanskrit, since it is after all so scarce in classical texts, or was it simply that authors found it below their dignity to opt for that easy way around? I do by the way share Nath Rao's peevishness about aping English. It is certainly not a problem in Sanskrit only: to be able to write and read technical Swedish one will soon _have_ to know English spelling-to-sound rules. People in India are lucky that those imports at least get transcribed! Btw: my peeve about western Sanskrit teaching is the manifest bias towards a certain limited number of texts, and disregard for providing a variety of subject matter in the texts read. What do the practicing teacher of Sanskrit think? Regards to all, Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Apr 12 08:33:11 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 10:33:11 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029586.23782.11355043250213617839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Dear Philp. Patrick and Olivelle, > >I have a niece in Bangalore whose name is Melanie. Her friends write it in >all possible ways: Malini, Melleny, Melony.... You know there are about 17 >million christians in India and we were until some years ago forced to have >an European saint's name at our baptism. I was for example baptised with >the name "Boniface" which I changed to "Anand" when I was adult. The >European missionaries just couldn't believe us when we said that we were >going to be the first christian saints with names like "Krishnamoorthy" >Ramagopalachari" "Janadhana" and so forth. And so were forced to have >ghastly names like Victor, Caesar and Napoleon... I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint Caesar is new to me, too. Or did the missionaries simply believe that all Europeans should be regarded as saints? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Apr 12 08:34:11 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 10:34:11 +0200 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029588.23782.18214551301460779744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:15 11.04.97 BST, you wrote: > > >Here is one of my pet peeves. There is an increased tendency in many >Sanskrit publications from India, to form the past tense by addition of >sma to the present. Sometimes, whole paragraphs are filled with >constructions like karoti sma, vasati sma, ...... Does this reflect an >unconscious desire among many Indians to recast their past in terms of the >present?!! > This is fairly common in the epics! Lars Martin Fosse From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sat Apr 12 17:17:15 1997 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 12:17:15 -0500 Subject: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) Message-ID: <161227029592.23782.10057508159251722729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint Caesar is >new to me, too. Or did the missionaries simply believe that all Europeans >should be regarded as saints? > Much like the Church of the Latter Day Saints, if you convert, and become a Mormon, you can convert ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS posthumously. Or, as I discovered years ago, while I was a "practicing Unitarian," all progressives and liberal thinkers who have ever existed, are defacto or retroactively Unitarians (for they would obviously and innately HAVE BEEN Unitarians, had the Unitarian Church existed in their era and/or locale). Yvette C. Rosser UTAustin From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat Apr 12 16:21:24 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 15:21:24 -0100 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029613.23782.10948375645051108215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 11 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao voe> Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' >the aorist has been thrown out (as too complicated and cumbersome), >and the past tense is usally expressed using nominalized verbs >(e.g., past passive and active participles in -ta and -tavant), >rather than imperfect or perfect finite conjugated verbs. voe> The only thing different about S. B. Sanskrit is the voe> relative voe> popularity of -tavant. I guess South Indians do not like voe> ergative voe> constructions :-) It is possible (or likely?) that a parallel, though certainly not cognate, construction in the Dravidian languages has contributed to the popularity of -tavant, namely the combination of a relative participle with a pronominal ending. E.g.: Kannada maa.dida-, or Tamil ceyta-, is the past relative participle which means "having done" or "which / who did" (I am now slightly simplifying the matter), and Ka. maa.didavanu, Ta. ceytava_n, with the suffixes -vanu and -va_n, mean "he who did", which would be suitably translated into Sanskrit as k.rtavaan. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From wgw at dnai.com Sat Apr 12 17:59:04 1997 From: wgw at dnai.com (WILLIAM G WALL) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 17:59:04 +0000 Subject: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) Message-ID: <161227029599.23782.9752722985200969241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:46 PM 4/12/97 BST, you wrote: >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint Caesar is >>new to me, too. Or did the missionaries simply believe that all Europeans >>should be regarded as saints? >> >Much like the Church of the Latter Day Saints, if you convert, and become a >Mormon, you can convert ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS posthumously. > >Or, as I discovered years ago, while I was a "practicing Unitarian," all >progressives and liberal thinkers who have ever existed, are defacto or >retroactively Unitarians (for they would obviously and innately HAVE BEEN >Unitarians, had the Unitarian Church existed in their era and/or locale). > >Yvette C. Rosser >UTAustin > > > > > And Dante's Vergil would HAVE BEEN a Christian if he had had the opportunity! William G Wall, Ph.D. Institute for Vaisnava Studies Graduate Theological Union PO Box 11216 Berkeley CA 94712 (510) 849-8280 (office) email: wgw at dnai.com Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se From thompson at jlc.net Sun Apr 13 01:35:25 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 21:35:25 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029595.23782.10536202331505875564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan asks: > >I would very much appreciate if you could let me know if these texts refer >to any word for 'warp' derived from 'ta'n' or other words meaning 'to >stretch'? > >Thanks in advance. To my knowledge IE cognates of the root Skt. tan- have not been used to refer to "warp", but the words that are used seem to belong to the same semantic sphere as tan-. For example, the very word "warp" is derived from an IE root wer- which in Skt is manifest as vR + t = vRt- [wer + b => Germanic warp]. The English words "spin, spindle", etc, have a root sense "stretch". The English word "weave" [cf. web, weft, etc] has cognates in Greek, hyphe, etc., and in Avestan vaf-. These are ultimately related to our Skt. root u-, ve- [cf. for example Skt UrNa-vAbhi = wool-weaver, i.e., spider]. But the relationship between sewing, spinning, plaiting, and weaving is obscure to me. I wouldn't attempt to sort them out in IE languages, or even in Skt. [for that, perhaps we need to look directly at Rau's short monograph]. As for the metaphor, speech = text [weaving], perhaps a few other IE examples will be helpful: Avestan: the root vaf- = both "to weave" and "to sing". Old English: ic worcraeft waef = I weave word-craft Greek: rhapsoidos [cf. Eng "rhapsody"] = singer, lit. = weaver of songs. Besides the monograph and anthology of R. Schmitt, already cited, one might also consult F. Bader's *La langue des dieux, ou l'herme'tisme des poe`tes indo-europe'ens*, 1989 [like Schmitt's an interesting book on Indo-European poetics]. The AV passage that you mean is AV 10.7.42. It reads: tantram eke yuvatI virUpe abhyAkrAmaM vayataH SaNmayUkham prAnyA tantUMs tirate dhatte anyA nApa vRJjAte na gamAto antam Whitney's translation: "A certain pair of maidens, of diverse form, weave, betaking themselves to it, the six-pegged web; the one draws forth the threads [tantu], the other sets [them]; they wrest not off [apa-vRj] they go not to an end." mayUkha = peg; we also have tantra and tantu. Certainly, as you suggest, these six pegs imply a structure, a loom, but the word itself for "loom" does not appear here. To me, the task of deciding whether or not there is influence or contect between old IE and Dravidian traditions re this metaphor is *very* difficult, perhaps insoluble. Not only must Semitic be considered, as is rightly suggested by W. Trimble, but any number of other languages [and language-families] as well. For example, I recall, rather vaguely, that there is something very much like this metaphor among the Dogon of West Africa [Mali], discussed by Griaule and Calame-Griaule. Best wishes, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sat Apr 12 20:31:20 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 97 22:31:20 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit on video Message-ID: <161227029594.23782.14323738235890581068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think G. V. Iyer made at least two Sanskrit movies, with one of them said to have won some kind of award in 1992. I wouldn't mind hearing anything you might know about those movies or G. V. Iyer, primarily where one can get the tapes of the Sanskrit versions, how good those movies Sanskrit is, how one could get a hold of the scripts (maybe someone here knows the director), how good the movies are as movies, etc. From HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net Sun Apr 13 01:43:05 1997 From: HOYSALA at worldnet.att.net (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 01:43:05 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit on video Message-ID: <161227029597.23782.17806901681274037448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:39 PM 4/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >I think G. V. Iyer made at least two Sanskrit movies, with >one of them said to have won some kind of award in 1992. > >I wouldn't mind hearing anything you might know about those >movies or G. V. Iyer, primarily where one can get the tapes >of the Sanskrit versions, how good those movies Sanskrit is, >how one could get a hold of the scripts (maybe someone here >knows the director), how good the movies are as movies, etc. > > > > >----------------------- I have a copy of the video on 'Acharya Sri Shankara' in Sanskrit with English sub-titles, Produced/Directed by Sri G.V. Iyer. The title is: "Adi Shankaracharya".It is in color. I think you may get a copy & other details of the movie by contacting: National Film Development Corporation, D-6 Srisagar Estate, Worli, Bombay 400 019 Good Luck! Sincerely, -Harihareswara From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 13 06:47:42 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 02:47:42 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029600.23782.5612707307822624963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-12 21:52:33 EDT, thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) writes: << To my knowledge IE cognates of the root Skt. tan- have not been used to refer to "warp", but the words that are used seem to belong to the same semantic sphere as tan-. For example, the very word "warp" is derived from an IE root wer- which in Skt is manifest as vR + t = vRt- [wer + b => Germanic warp]. The English words "spin, spindle", etc, have a root sense "stretch". The English word "weave" [cf. web, weft, etc] has cognates in Greek, hyphe, etc., and in Avestan vaf-. These are ultimately related to our Skt. root u-, ve- [cf. for example Skt UrNa-vAbhi = wool-weaver, i.e., spider]. >> If the Vedic people had used a cognate of 'spin', then one can say that they are 'drawing' on their Indo-European tradition. The root of 'spin' seems to be 'spa' meaning 'to draw out' according to Walter Skeat. Actually, the spinning process involves rotation where the individual fibrous material is braided into yarn or thread and drawn out. (Without rotation or 'spin' one cannot get thread from a mass like cotton. Even 'thread's original sense is 'to twist' ) This yarn or thread is then woven into cloth. It is in the second stage, warp is used. Thus spinning comes first and second comes weaving. The unique thing about the Indian situation is the exact equivalence between Dravidian and Vedic, in the use of pA or ta'ntu. The root in both mean 'stretch'. There is no sense of 'rotation' or 'spinning' involved. Both mean 'warp'. Not only that. The Indo-European metaphors based on 'to weave' seem to have been reduced to relative insignificance compared to those particular words which have their parallels in Dravidian. There is another striking similarity between Vedic hymns and Classical Tamil poems. The loom we are talking about seems to be the vertical loom. The Atharva Veda 10.7.44 says,"These pegs propped up the sky." There are two poems in Classical Tamil which refer to the warp and let me give my translation. naRRiNai 353 "ALil peNTir tALiR ceyta nuNagkunuN panuval pOlak kaNaGkoLa ATumazai tavazum kOTuyar neTuvarai....." "The tall mountain where the swaying rain clouds gather and pour like the very very fine warp worked by the effort (or feet) of the women without men (widows)...." What is being described here is the pattern of parallel lines one would see when one is looking at falling rain from quite a distance outside the rain. puRanAnURu 125 "paruttip peNTin panuval anna neruppuccinan taNinta niNantayaGku kozunkuRai...." "The fat/thick piece of meat from which, after the anger of fire is lowered, the fat is slowly moving/dripping, like the warp of the 'cotton' woman....". What is being described here is a meat piece being roasted over a fire (probably held in a cross bar) from which fat/meat juice is dripping like icicles after the fire is put out. These descriptions imply what both Vedic and Classical Tamil texts were talking about were vertical looms. The poet may indeed have intended a pun here. 'niNam' as a noun means 'fat, flesh, serum'. The verb 'niNa' means 'to tie, to braid'. Also, the Tamil term for prosody is 'yAppu' which is from the root 'yA' meaning 'to tie, bind, compose (as a poem)'. The sequence of feet in poetry is called 'taLai'. As a verb 'taLai' means 'to fasten, bind, chain,' and as a noun 'taLai' means 'fastening, cord, rope'. Thus the Dravidian technical terminology related to prosody is full of terms referring to thread. As for Semitic origin, one can look for it. But, geographically, there is Iranian lying between Vedic and Semitic. If Avestan does not have a word for 'warp' derived from 'ta'n', I doubt if such effort is needed. There is a proverb in Tamil which translates into, "When you have butter in hand, why go all over looking for clarified butter?" Regards S. Palaniappan From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Sun Apr 13 13:52:32 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 06:52:32 -0700 Subject: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) Message-ID: <161227029603.23782.2670706335568393032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint Caesar... >>should be regarded as saints? Charlemagne, saint?, Napolean and Caesar of his day (Holy Roman Emperor), is enormously popular among Christians along SW coast, where, in Malayalam there is a whole genre of folk drama, Cavittu Natakam (resembling devoted to his life. From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Sun Apr 13 16:52:30 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 08:52:30 -0800 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029608.23782.13260900003851849051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Palaniappa at aol.com There is a > proverb in Tamil which translates into, "When you have butter in hand, why go > all over looking for clarified butter?" > Very well put. Unfortunately this is not the way Western scholarship has worked. Better to find the source in the Near East or Europe. Paul Kekai Manansala From dicko at netletter.com Sun Apr 13 13:13:57 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 09:13:57 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029602.23782.9767316355713061476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > dc> It's really too bad in my opinion that Sanskrit hasn't much > dc> of a chance for adoption as a national language in India. To which Robert Zydenbos replied: >I was under the impression that Sanskrit already is a national language: one of >the many national languages which are recognized by the constitution. Which is >why it is one of the languages used on all banknotes, etc. It is an *official* national language. I meant there doesn't seem to be much chance of it actually being used as a major medium of "interstate" communication by a large percentage of people the way English and some variations of Hindi are. (BTW Robert your English is amazingly proper for somebody speaking *both* double-Dutch and Sanskrit! ) --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 13 15:51:53 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 11:51:53 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029610.23782.9658367297698009381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A comparison of Rig Veda 10.71.9 and some Classical Tamil poems brings out some interesting findings. naRRiNai 353 "ALil peNTir tALiR ceyta nuNagkunuN panuval pOlak kaNaGkoLa ATumazai tavazum kOTuyar neTuvarai....." "The tall mountain where the swaying rain clouds gather and pour like the very very fine warp worked by the effort (or feet) of the women without men (widows)...." What is being described here is the pattern of parallel lines one would see when one is looking at falling rain from quite a distance outside the rain. In the poem, 'warp' is described using the words "nuNagkunuN panuval". Consider another poem, akanAnURu 345. ............................................................... kAnamar celvi aruLalin veNkAl palpaTaip puravi eytiya tollicai nuNaGkunuN panuval pulavan pATiya ....................................................... This is translated as, " the very very fine song/poem sung by the poet who obtained a horse with white legs due to the grace of the Goddess of the forest". In the poem, 'song/poem' is denoted by the words "nuNaGkunuN panuval", in exactly the same words as the warp of the weaving women in the previous poem. Thus the word 'panuval' in the context of weavers should mean 'warp' and in the context of poets/bards should mean 'verse/song/hymn'. But bRhaspati AGgiras is really mixing it up in Rig Veda 10.71.9. The Sanskrit text of 10.71.9 is ime' ye' nA'rvA'N na' para's' ca'rant' na' brAhmaNA'so na' sute'karAsaH I ta' ete' vA'cam abhipa'dya pApa'yA sirI's ta'ntraM tanvate a'prajajJayaH II Griffith's translation reads, "Those men who step not back and move not forward, nor BrAhmans nor preparers of libations, Having attained to VAk in sinful fashion spin out their thread in ignorance like spinsters." The author criticizes the speech/songs of those who are not participating in Vedic religious ceremonies and compares the sppech/songs to the 'stretched warp' of weaving women. There are several interesting things here. Why are the weaving women chosen to exemplify 'improper' song/speech? Were they non-Aryan and hence compared to those who do not participate in Vedic ceremonies? Further, the improper utterance of people not particiupating in Vedic rituals is directly compared to the warp of the (ignorant) weaving women. My feeling is that the author was cleverly punning with the concept of 'panuval' since he knew the two-fold meanings of Dravidian 'panuval' and its Indo-Aryan equivalent 'ta'ntra'. Considering the view that the AGgirasas were originally indigenous people, the criticism leveled against the improper speech of non-Vedic people, and women, doesn't bRhaspati AGgirasa look like a precursor for PataJjali? Regards S. Palaniappan puRanAnURu 125 "paruttip peNTin panuval anna neruppuccinan taNinta niNantayaGku kozunkuRai...." "The fat/thick piece of meat from which, after the anger of fire is lowered, the fat is slowly moving/dripping, like the warp of the 'cotton' woman....". What is being described here is a meat piece being roasted over a fire (probably held in a cross bar) from which fat/meat juice is dripping like icicles after the fire is put out. These descriptions imply what both Vedic and Classical Tamil texts were talking about were vertical looms. The poet may indeed have intended a pun here. 'niNam' as a noun means 'fat, flesh, serum'. The verb 'niNa' means 'to tie, to braid'. From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 13 16:12:09 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 12:12:09 -0400 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029611.23782.7951266000762565814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-13 11:30:18 EDT, you write: << Correct me if I'm wrong: I've heared English is still widely used at the official level because Hindi's not acceptable to the southern states. Now I do understand how this implies Hindi alone would not be acceptable, but I don't think I'm able to follow the implication this makes English indispensable. Is there no combination of 2 or 3 or even 4 languages which as Union languages would be acceptable to all? Could anyone explain this to me a bit more clearly? >> The attitude of Indians towards languages is a topic on which volumes could be/have been written. You probably read the following in an earlier posting in Indology. < Subject: Your Letter from Embassy of India (March 27, 1997) Honorable Siv S. Mukherjee Embassy of India 2107 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20008 Phone (202) 939-7041 Fax (202) 462-7276 I have received your letter describing the Indian Government's intention to bring out a Directory of Scholars of Hindi living abroad to commemorate India's 50th anniversary of independence. You describe your intentions to produce a directory with personal biographies, and photographs, as well as published works and awards and honors. You also indicate that if my interest is not in Hindi, you are not interested in including me in the directory. The message seems to me to be rather clear, and quite damaging to the notion that India is a nation concerned for the united cooperation of India's linguistic, cultural, and literary groups. I am a scholar of Tamil, and I regret that you have decided that the Tamil language, culture, and people are irrelevant or, at best, secondary to India's national celebration of independence. I would like to remind you that Tamilnadu has a long and remarkable history in terms of literary and religious contributions to national life in India. India is a great nation, but I would hate to see it diminished by parochial notions such as those claiming that any one linguistic, racial, geographic, or religious group carries the banner for the entire nation. I send this letter to academics on several lists concerned with the study of India. I encourage them not to participate in the project unless the project is enlarged to include all languages of India. Respectfully, William P. Harman Associate Professor of Religion DePauw University>> The attitude of the Indian Government as experienced by Prof. Harman and the farcical following of three-language formula by Hindi-speaking states is well-known. (They are supposed to study a non-Hindi language, but it is simply not done.) Tamilnadu and, if I am not mistaken, West Bengal openly adopted the two-language formula. In many non-Hindi states, I have heard that for passing Hindi, you have to just attend the exam and hand in your paper with your name, etc. written. I do not know if this is true any more. May be members more familiar with other states can elaborate. Regards S. Palaniappan From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Sun Apr 13 23:14:56 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 15:14:56 -0800 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029620.23782.14944946203068212111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > When I was a student I dabbled in folklore studies with Alan Dundes. He > had many memorable things to say, but I have found most useful his words of > caution AGAINST arguments based on either UNIQUENESS or on UNIVERSALITY. > Such arguments, he suggested, were especially vulnerable, for the reason > that they were ENTIRELY discredited with the discovery of only one > exception. > One exception does not discredit such arguments, but only renders them less probable. After all we are not dealing with absolute proof here. Neither Palaniappan or Thompson are presenting anything that *proves* their theories that these ideas are originally Dravidian or IE. If an exception existed only in Lakota, I would think it would have only a minimal effect on Palaniappan's theory. It would still be reasonable if a very close resemblance in thought existed between Dravidian and Vedic, but no such resemblance was found in the rest of IE. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 13 19:55:58 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 15:55:58 -0400 Subject: Western scholarship (was Re: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra) Message-ID: <161227029617.23782.15610566607624939742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-13 14:19:31 EDT, jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (Jacob Baltuch) writes: << I believe the purpose of looking outside IE and Dravidian is simply to check this wasn't a usual metaphor. This has nothing to do with looking for any sources. If you want to explain some convergence of IA and Dravidian as an influence of the one on the other (or vice versa), it may be wise to make sure the thing in question couldn't have appeared independently in both. >> I also believe in tracing the origin of the concept of text as 'warp' as far as it can go. However, when Indian and Semitic languages were not in direct contact at the time of the Rig Veda, even if we find Semitic has that concept, it does not help us in solving the problem in the Indian context. This is because, as George Thompson has shown, Avestan does not have it. Avestan would be expected to have a much more intimate contact with Semitic than Indian languages. Other than independent developments in Indian and Semitic, the only way Semitic would have influenced Vedic would be if the Aryans coming to India came as a group (independent of Iranians) separately making their own contact with Semitic. If I am correct, it is still believed that Indo-Iranian split into Iranian and Indic languages. If Semitic has the concept of text based on 'warp' as does Dravidian, then we can say just that unless, of course, a word can be shown to have been borrowed from one language by another. (If Indo-European had the concept of text derived from 'ta'n', then we would be in the same position also.) Even if one considers a super family of languages including Indo-European and Dravidian, it is Vedic which looks like the innovator. Consider the root 'spa' in Indo-European, and the words 'pA' in Dravidian, and 'ta'ntu' in Vedic, 'spa', and 'pA' are a lot closer than 'spa' and 'ta'ntu'. Incidentally, Frank Southworth has identified pairs of words in Dravidian and Indo-European with 's' being the difference between the two forms! (For example, English 'speak', Tamil 'pEcu') In any case, my aim for quoting the proverb in this case was only to point out the inefficacy of the search for roots outside the language families in contact. Lest some might get a wrong impression, let me reiterate that I do have a high regard for Western scholarship and in this particular case, I am especially grateful to George Thompson, but for whose crucial comments, we would not have reached this solution. Regards S. Palaniappan From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun Apr 13 14:39:01 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 16:39:01 +0200 Subject: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) Message-ID: <161227029605.23782.2657573458966147446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:56 13.04.97 BST, you wrote: >>>I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint >Caesar... >>>should be regarded as saints? > > >Charlemagne, saint?, Napolean and Caesar of his day (Holy Roman Emperor), >is enormously popular among Christians along SW coast, where, in Malayalam >there is a whole genre of folk drama, Cavittu Natakam (resembling >devoted to his life. If this business of making dead Westerns saints becomes a regular thing, we shall all (Westerners I mean) end up as saints sooner or later. What a relief! I shall never have to worry about my saintly qualities again. Lars Martin Fosse From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sun Apr 13 18:00:14 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 17:00:14 -0100 Subject: Sanskrit on video Message-ID: <161227029626.23782.1953336065633617445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 12 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) jbb> From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (Jacob Baltuch) jbb> Subject: Sanskrit on video jbb> I think G. V. Iyer made at least two Sanskrit movies, with jbb> one of them said to have won some kind of award in 1992. jbb> I wouldn't mind hearing anything you might know about those jbb> movies or G. V. Iyer, primarily where one can get the tapes jbb> of the Sanskrit versions, how good those movies Sanskrit jbb> is, jbb> how one could get a hold of the scripts (maybe someone here jbb> knows the director), how good the movies are as movies, jbb> etc. I happen to know G.V. Iyer personally. He reads Sanskrit and is obviously very fond of classical Sanskritic India, but he did not trust his own Sanskrit enough to write the Sanskrit portions of his scripts himself, so he had this done by his friend Bannanje Govindacharya in Udupi, who previously edited the collected writings of Madhvaacaarya and is a Sanskrit author in his own right. Govindacharya wrote the Sanskrit text for both the Shankaracharya and the Bhagavadgita movies which Iyer made, and he wrote the whole script for Iyer's film on Madhva. (And that Sanskrit is very real.) I do not know whether the scripts have been published. - Robert Zydenbos From thompson at jlc.net Sun Apr 13 21:22:22 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 17:22:22 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029619.23782.14830265567918901591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan [snip] > >The unique thing about the Indian situation is the exact equivalence between >Dravidian and Vedic, in the use of pA or ta'ntu. The root in both mean >'stretch'. There is no sense of 'rotation' or 'spinning' involved. Both mean >'warp'. [snip] >As for Semitic origin, one can look for it. But, geographically, there is >Iranian lying between Vedic and Semitic. If Avestan does not have a word for >'warp' derived from 'ta'n', I doubt if such effort is needed. There is a >proverb in Tamil which translates into, "When you have butter in hand, why go >all over looking for clarified butter?" > >Regards > When I was a student I dabbled in folklore studies with Alan Dundes. He had many memorable things to say, but I have found most useful his words of caution AGAINST arguments based on either UNIQUENESS or on UNIVERSALITY. Such arguments, he suggested, were especially vulnerable, for the reason that they were ENTIRELY discredited with the discovery of only one exception. Now, to discredit S. Palaniappan's argument re the uniqueness of the Vedic-Dravidian origins of the speech = weaving metaphor, all one need to do is to find one counter example, where the same metaphor occurs. That is precisely why it is a good idea to check out Semitic, Chinese, Lakota, Finnish, or ANY other language [-family]. I think we should all be very sceptical when it comes to arguments based on uniqueness. But in fact we don't have to go so far away as the Near East. The material that I have examined in the RV itself is not as clear-cut as one might think. There is good reason why the standard handbooks gloss ta'ntu as both "thread" and "warp": there are passages where the term does not seem to mean "warp" at all. For example, there are several passages where ta'ntu appears in the plural or is marked by a numeral [trita'ntu; cf. also ta'ntu trivR'ta]. In such passages "thread" seems the more appropriate interpretation. Furthermore, the phrase ta'ntu trivR'ta collocates ta'ntu with the Skt root vRt- [cf. etymology of "warp"], which perhaps shows that the distinction between spinning and weaving is less clear in Vedic than it is in S. Palaniappan's mind. It seems to me that if you look closely at the semantics of tan-, ta'ntu, ta'ntra, it appears rather similar to the semantics of Avestan vaf-, Greek hyphaino, Old Eng. wefan, etc. Furthermore, nearly every passage re weaving that I have encountered in the RV is figurative, metaphorical and obscure, wrapped in what Bloomfield once called "the Vedic haze." You don't very often get clear-cut reference to realia in the RV. Everything is typically a veiled reference to some other, say sacrificial, activity or phenomenon. It is clear to me, at least, that the Vedic poets were less interested in presenting us with a clear picture of contemporary weaving and spinning technology than they were in the elaborate schemes that were operating within their own heads. So it may well be that S. Palaniappan doesn't have "butter" in his hands at all, but rather a far more dangerous thing, an axe to grind. And in response to Paul Kekai Manansala's note, if you prefer you can ignore the Near East and Europe. Check out Marcel Griaule's "Conversations with Ogotemmeli" [Oxford Univ. Press, 1965], especially ch.10 on "The Word and the Craft of Weaving". After reading it, one will surely have to abandon the argument based on uniqueness, for the Dogon of Mali seem to think of weaving very much as the Vedic RSis do. Best wishes, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 13 15:25:32 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 17:25:32 +0200 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029607.23782.3690967497473215071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correct me if I'm wrong: I've heared English is still widely used at the official level because Hindi's not acceptable to the southern states. Now I do understand how this implies Hindi alone would not be acceptable, but I don't think I'm able to follow the implication this makes English indispensable. Is there no combination of 2 or 3 or even 4 languages which as Union languages would be acceptable to all? Could anyone explain this to me a bit more clearly? From sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu Mon Apr 14 02:20:21 1997 From: sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu (sac51900 at saclink.csus.edu) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 18:20:21 -0800 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029628.23782.16912180043077682615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:55:49 BST > Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra > >> When I was a student I dabbled in folklore studies with Alan Dundes. He > >> had many memorable things to say, but I have found most useful his words of > >> caution AGAINST arguments based on either UNIQUENESS or on UNIVERSALITY. > >> Such arguments, he suggested, were especially vulnerable, for the reason > >> that they were ENTIRELY discredited with the discovery of only one > >> exception. > >> > > > >One exception does not discredit such arguments, but only renders > >them less probable. After all we are not dealing with absolute proof > >here. Neither Palaniappan or Thompson are presenting anything > >that *proves* their theories that these ideas are originally > >Dravidian or IE. If an exception existed only in Lakota, I would > >think it would have only a minimal effect on Palaniappan's theory. > >It would still be reasonable if a very close resemblance in thought > >existed between Dravidian and Vedic, but no such resemblance > >was found in the rest of IE. > > > >Regards, > >Paul Kekai Manansala > > Well, let me put it this way. If someone shows me something and says that > it is one of a kind, and then I find something else that is of the *same* > kind and show it to her, I have not merely shown that her argument is > *improbable*. I have shown that it is wrong. No? > No, I don't think so. > In any case, I do not accept the premiss that there are no such > resemblances between Vedic and the rest of IE. As far as I can tell S. > Palaniappan's argument depends on a false distinction between tan- "stretch > [a warp]" and the other roots that belong to the semantic sphere of weaving > [e.g., u-, ve-, "weave"; vRt- "turn, spin", sIv-, syU- "sew"]. > This is not a "false" distinction. It is a semantic distinction. > By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of > UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, > Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of > this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to > Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? > > One last note: I am willing to entertain S. Palaniappan's claim that there > is a historical connection of some kind between the Vedic and Dravidian > material. But in order to consider the claim, for example, that the author > of RV 10,71 "was cleverly punning with the concept of 'panuval' since he > knew the two-fold meanings of Dravidian 'panuval' and its Indo-Aryan > equivalent 'ta'ntra'", I think I'd need more evidence. > > Why? Because there seems to be enough evidence, both from IE sources and > non-IE sources, to suggest that one could come up with the metaphor, speech > = weaving, independently of any knowledge of Dravidian. > Sorry, I haven't seen this evidence for such a metaphor. > For example, I would consider demonstrable *quotation* of a Dravidian > source in Vedic compelling evidence indeed [no question!]. Do you mean a Vedic quotation attributing the practice of weaving to the Asuras? Paul Kekai Manansala From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 13 22:36:20 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 18:36:20 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029623.23782.17514014437937081277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-13 17:34:34 EDT, you write: << So it may well be that S. Palaniappan doesn't have "butter" in his hands at all, but rather a far more dangerous thing, an axe to grind. >> If you read my earlier posting in response to Jacob Baltuch's comment, it will be obvious that I do not have any axe to grind. I was just taking the information provided by you further by one more step. I was saying that with your information about Avestan, you had already arrived at the solution. There was no need to go further. I did not mean I had the 'butter' in MY hand. As for the occurrences of 'ta'ntu' as 'thread', that is not a problem. As you point out, 'ta'ntu' occurs as both thread and warp. But, we are interested in the converse problem, i.e., in Vedic only 'ta'ntu/ta'ntra' is used as 'warp', not any combination of 'vRt' with other words meaning 'thread'. (If such occurrences are found, we have to revise the thesis. That is what scientific inquiry is all about.) That seems to me to be the critical question. Regards S. Palaniappan From thompson at jlc.net Sun Apr 13 23:45:11 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 19:45:11 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029624.23782.1949471318982844149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> When I was a student I dabbled in folklore studies with Alan Dundes. He >> had many memorable things to say, but I have found most useful his words of >> caution AGAINST arguments based on either UNIQUENESS or on UNIVERSALITY. >> Such arguments, he suggested, were especially vulnerable, for the reason >> that they were ENTIRELY discredited with the discovery of only one >> exception. >> > >One exception does not discredit such arguments, but only renders >them less probable. After all we are not dealing with absolute proof >here. Neither Palaniappan or Thompson are presenting anything >that *proves* their theories that these ideas are originally >Dravidian or IE. If an exception existed only in Lakota, I would >think it would have only a minimal effect on Palaniappan's theory. >It would still be reasonable if a very close resemblance in thought >existed between Dravidian and Vedic, but no such resemblance >was found in the rest of IE. > >Regards, >Paul Kekai Manansala Well, let me put it this way. If someone shows me something and says that it is one of a kind, and then I find something else that is of the *same* kind and show it to her, I have not merely shown that her argument is *improbable*. I have shown that it is wrong. No? In any case, I do not accept the premiss that there are no such resemblances between Vedic and the rest of IE. As far as I can tell S. Palaniappan's argument depends on a false distinction between tan- "stretch [a warp]" and the other roots that belong to the semantic sphere of weaving [e.g., u-, ve-, "weave"; vRt- "turn, spin", sIv-, syU- "sew"]. By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? One last note: I am willing to entertain S. Palaniappan's claim that there is a historical connection of some kind between the Vedic and Dravidian material. But in order to consider the claim, for example, that the author of RV 10,71 "was cleverly punning with the concept of 'panuval' since he knew the two-fold meanings of Dravidian 'panuval' and its Indo-Aryan equivalent 'ta'ntra'", I think I'd need more evidence. Why? Because there seems to be enough evidence, both from IE sources and non-IE sources, to suggest that one could come up with the metaphor, speech = weaving, independently of any knowledge of Dravidian. For example, I would consider demonstrable *quotation* of a Dravidian source in Vedic compelling evidence indeed [no question!]. But beyond that, what other evidence would be considered *compelling* by others on this list? S. Palaniappan himself has acknowledged the possibility that "we may be talking [about] some universal concepts." Best wishes, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 13 17:52:57 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 19:52:57 +0200 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029614.23782.15964471718384595202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to a question of mine S. Palaniappan wrote: >The attitude of the Indian Government as experienced by Prof. Harman and the >farcical following of three-language formula by Hindi-speaking states is >well-known. Please excuse my ignorance but what is that three-language formula? >(They are supposed to study a non-Hindi language, but it is simply not done.) You mean a non-Hindi language to add as language of the Union? >Tamilnadu and, if I am not mistaken, West Bengal openly adopted the two- >language formula. Are you talking of a federal two-language formula (in which case how can Tamilnadu and West Bengal do it on their own since this by definition would involve the whole country?), but if you mean at the state level, I thought (has that changed?) Tamil Nadu and West Bengal had one official language each? From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 13 18:13:00 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 20:13:00 +0200 Subject: Western scholarship (was Re: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra) Message-ID: <161227029616.23782.669001877780746459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> There is a >> proverb in Tamil which translates into, "When you have butter in hand, >> why go all over looking for clarified butter?" > >Very well put. Unfortunately this is not the way Western scholarship >has worked. Better to find the source in the Near East or Europe. I believe the purpose of looking outside IE and Dravidian is simply to check this wasn't a usual metaphor. This has nothing to do with looking for any sources. If you want to explain some convergence of IA and Dravidian as an influence of the one on the other (or vice versa), it may be wise to make sure the thing in question couldn't have appeared independently in both. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Apr 14 03:01:17 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 21:01:17 -0600 Subject: Kannada words in Greek play Message-ID: <161227029632.23782.3146519916260217185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kannada Words in a Greek Play ***************************** Attempts have been made to decipher the words in the old Greek play. See the Tamil book: irA. mativANan, kirEkka naaTakattil tamizh uraiyaaTal, cennai, 1978, 50 p. Regards, N. Ganesan From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 14 01:41:29 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 21:41:29 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029629.23782.9542614213564817741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-13 19:53:42 EDT, you write: << By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? >> See Old Indian by Jan Gonda, pp. 174. " Irregular or semantically obscure forms were also in Old Indian replaced by new forms of more normal structure and intelligible semantic content, although the latter were apt to be overdone: the oldest form for "spider" is in all probability UrNa-va'bhi- "the she-weaver of wool"; when however the second member of this compound became un intelligible - the root vabh-had fallen into disuse-it was replaced by nA'bhi- "navel", the name of the spider becoming UrNanAbha- "having wool on the navel" and hence tantunAbha- "emitting threads from its navel". UrNanAbhi and tantunAbha are attested in the upanishads. Regards S. Palaniappan From thompson at jlc.net Mon Apr 14 01:44:08 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 21:44:08 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029630.23782.15153267392072700367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> Well, let me put it this way. If someone shows me something and says that >> it is one of a kind, and then I find something else that is of the *same* >> kind and show it to her, I have not merely shown that her argument is >> *improbable*. I have shown that it is wrong. No? >> > >No, I don't think so. > >> In any case, I do not accept the premiss that there are no such >> resemblances between Vedic and the rest of IE. As far as I can tell S. >> Palaniappan's argument depends on a false distinction between tan- "stretch >> [a warp]" and the other roots that belong to the semantic sphere of weaving >> [e.g., u-, ve-, "weave"; vRt- "turn, spin", sIv-, syU- "sew"]. >> > >This is not a "false" distinction. It is a semantic distinction. > >> By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of >> UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, >> Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of >> this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to >> Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? >> >> One last note: I am willing to entertain S. Palaniappan's claim that there >> is a historical connection of some kind between the Vedic and Dravidian >> material. But in order to consider the claim, for example, that the author >> of RV 10,71 "was cleverly punning with the concept of 'panuval' since he >> knew the two-fold meanings of Dravidian 'panuval' and its Indo-Aryan >> equivalent 'ta'ntra'", I think I'd need more evidence. >> >> Why? Because there seems to be enough evidence, both from IE sources and >> non-IE sources, to suggest that one could come up with the metaphor, speech >> = weaving, independently of any knowledge of Dravidian. >> > >Sorry, I haven't seen this evidence for such a metaphor. > >> For example, I would consider demonstrable *quotation* of a Dravidian >> source in Vedic compelling evidence indeed [no question!]. > >Do you mean a Vedic quotation attributing the practice of >weaving to the Asuras? > >Paul Kekai Manansala I see a certain resemblance here between your philosophy and Nancy Reagan's: "Just say no...." Well, I guess it worked for her... Best wishes, George Thompson From thompson at jlc.net Mon Apr 14 02:35:38 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 22:35:38 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029633.23782.5356223341076134038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a message dated 97-04-13 19:53:42 EDT, you write: > ><< By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of > UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, > Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of > this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to > Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? >> > >See Old Indian by Jan Gonda, pp. 174. > >" Irregular or semantically obscure forms were also in Old Indian replaced by >new forms of more normal structure and intelligible semantic content, >although the latter were apt to be overdone: the oldest form for "spider" is >in all probability UrNa-va'bhi- "the she-weaver of wool"; when however the >second member of this compound became un intelligible - the root vabh-had >fallen into disuse-it was replaced by nA'bhi- "navel", the name of the spider >becoming UrNanAbha- "having wool on the navel" and hence tantunAbha- >"emitting threads from its navel". > > UrNanAbhi and tantunAbha are attested in the upanishads. > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan Thank you for this reference. The phonic, morphological, and semantic similarity of UrNavAbhi and UrNanAbhi caught my attention too. But the point is that the form UrNavAbhi displays a nice cognate of the Avestan root vaf-, uf-, "to weave, sing". Thus, no chasm at all between Old Iranian and Old Indic re this verbal root. Perhaps with a lot of hard work we can get to the bottom of this problem. Best wishes, George Thompson From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Sun Apr 13 22:36:18 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 00:36:18 +0200 Subject: Western scholarship (was Re: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra) Message-ID: <161227029622.23782.9665555633197253037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ><< I believe the purpose of looking outside IE and Dravidian is simply > to check this wasn't a usual metaphor. This has nothing to do with > looking for any sources. If you want to explain some convergence of > IA and Dravidian as an influence of the one on the other (or vice versa), > it may be wise to make sure the thing in question couldn't have appeared > independently in both. >> > >I also believe in tracing the origin of the concept of text as 'warp' as far >as it can go. However, when Indian and Semitic languages were not in direct >contact at the time of the Rig Veda, even if we find Semitic has that >concept, it does not help us in solving the problem in the Indian context. >This is because, as George Thompson has shown, Avestan does not have it. I'm afraid I did not convey my point clearly: I did *not* suggest that the presence of the metaphor in Semitic would mean that Semitic would be the source of the Vedic metaphor. Semitic is simply one a place to look for it, which would not be Indic. If you don't like Semitic try Polynesian, or Quechua, or Chukchi-Kamcha- dal. "Semitic" is not important. Replace "Semitic" with "any language (family) outside India" if you wish. The reason one might want to look around is that, *if* that metaphor is found in contexts other than Indic it could simply mean that this is a natural metaphor. This in turn *might* imply that its presence in both Vedic and Tamil might be due to independent development rather than to mutual influence. Incidentally, I'd never meant to get involved in this discussion. I was merely reacting to yet another claim that "Western Scolarship (tm)" was trying to take something away which ought to be credited to India. At least in this specific instance, this wasn't the case, because, at the risk of repeating myself, the purpose of the inquiry was *not* to find a Semitic or any other outside source for the Vedic metaphor, but to verify whether Tamil and Vedic could not have originated that metaphor independently (*and* independently of *any* outside source, Semitic or other) From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Apr 14 10:42:14 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 00:42:14 -1000 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029638.23782.15350149365942061935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A list member wrote: >> Subject: Your Letter from Embassy of India (March 27, 1997) >> >> >> Honorable Siv S. Mukherjee >> Embassy of India [...deleted...] >> indicate that if my interest is not in Hindi, you are not interested in >> including me in the directory. The message seems to me to be rather >> clear, and quite damaging to the notion that India is a nation concerned >> for the united cooperation of India's linguistic, cultural, and >> literary groups. >> >> I am a scholar of Tamil, and I regret that you have decided that the >> Tamil language, culture, and people are irrelevant or, at best, secondary >> to India's national celebration of independence. I would like to remind you [...deleted...] Who was it who said "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity"? I think India would be a less quarrelsome place if everyone would make that their motto. What an irony to write a confrontational letter to a "Honorable Siv Mukherjee" -- a Bengali -- virtually accusing him of being a Hindi bigot? The poor man is surely a bureaucrat mindlessly following some routine mandated by another bureaucrat -- who, for all I know, could easily be a Tamilian. In general, I think that the "system" in India is well-intentioned, even idealistic in theory -- though usually bungling in practice. And if one is friendly rather than confrontational, people will usually see your point and try to cooperate. And I wish our foreign friends would pick up some of our good points, not our tendency to waste time striking poses of self-righteous martyrdom and bickering with one another. ------------ > The attitude of the Indian Government as experienced by Prof. Harman and > farcical following of three-language formula by Hindi-speaking states is > well-known. (They are supposed to study a non-Hindi language, but it is > simply not done.) Tamilnadu and, if I am not mistaken, West Bengal openly > adopted the two-language formula. In many non-Hindi states, I have heard Sounds like the Hindi-speaking states at least pretend to study a third language, while we great and glorious Tamils have dropped even the pretence of studying any language other than Tamil and Hindi. Which one sounds more fanatical? I think more people in the world would study Tamil if we Tamilians would achieve something remarkable. Many people are now learning Japanese and Korean. It's because of those peoples' achievements. Not because of their boasting, quarreling, and being just plain unpleasant. You can't even sell a Big Mac by being confrontational. Much less convince people to study your culture. Anbudan, Raja. ________ ________ __ __ ________ | | | | (/ \/ ) | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | _/ __ | | | | | | (__/ \) | | / From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon Apr 14 13:00:48 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 06:00:48 -0700 Subject: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) Message-ID: <161227029644.23782.4461437126837441394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well Lars, Sorry. As a Westerner, you have to do something REALLY GREAT, and have a meglamania, like, say, Saint Bill-who-stands-at-the-Gates-to-Heavan to be treated like a saint in India these days. Peter On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:50:11 BST > From: Lars Martin Fosse > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Posthumous Conversions (was Re: Melleny) > > > If this business of making dead Westerns saints becomes a regular thing, we > shall all (Westerners I mean) end up as saints sooner or later. What a > relief! I shall never have to worry about my saintly qualities again. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From wgw at dnai.com Mon Apr 14 07:45:35 1997 From: wgw at dnai.com (WILLIAM G WALL) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 07:45:35 +0000 Subject: ra.ngana Message-ID: <161227029654.23782.16027323982999145702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Rupa Gosvami's Vidagdhamaadhava there is a reference to a "ra.ngana" garland (Act II). This does not appear to be a flower. Etymologically, it seems to come from "ra.nga" ("play," perhaps sport, but also in the sense of drama). Can anyone shed more light on this garland? Thanks, Bill William G Wall, Ph.D. Institute for Vaisnava Studies Graduate Theological Union PO Box 11216 Berkeley CA 94712 (510) 849-8280 (office) email: wgw at dnai.com Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon Apr 14 15:08:50 1997 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 08:08:50 -0700 Subject: Happy New Year! Message-ID: <161227029652.23782.2949694232851100381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: April 14, 1997 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, Happy Tamil New Year to everyone and especially those of you who took the trouble to help me understand why it always falls on this day in Tamil Nadu (and, as I have discovered, Sri Lanka and Malaysia among other places, no doubt). Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From athr at loc.gov Mon Apr 14 13:54:37 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 09:54:37 -0400 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029648.23782.2878630722628882080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re St. Napoleon: There is one, though I am doing reference duty at the Asian RR desk and can't check Butler's Lives of the Saints. How do you think Buonaparte got his Christian name? Napoleon the Emperor encouraged the spread of the cult of Napoleon the Saint, without much permanent success, obviously. I asked my late colleague Dr. Sam Iftikhar, a Pakistani (Punjabi) Christian (Presbyterian), once, why S. Asian Christians sometimes had for personal names English family names. He said they were the names of specially respected missionaries. Which implies that it was not thought that every European name and only European names were suitable for Christians. My impression is that S. Asian Christian females are more likely to have 'Indian' (large scare quotes) names in addition to or instead of a saint's name than males. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > >Dear Philp. Patrick and Olivelle, > > > >I have a niece in Bangalore whose name is Melanie. Her friends write it in > >all possible ways: Malini, Melleny, Melony.... You know there are about 17 > >million christians in India and we were until some years ago forced to have > >an European saint's name at our baptism. I was for example baptised with > >the name "Boniface" which I changed to "Anand" when I was adult. The > >European missionaries just couldn't believe us when we said that we were > >going to be the first christian saints with names like "Krishnamoorthy" > >Ramagopalachari" "Janadhana" and so forth. And so were forced to have > >ghastly names like Victor, Caesar and Napoleon... > > I never heard about a Christian saint called Napoleon!! And saint Caesar is > new to me, too. Or did the missionaries simply believe that all Europeans > should be regarded as saints? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From athr at loc.gov Mon Apr 14 13:57:28 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 09:57:28 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029646.23782.15986258352515684044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Replies to msg 10 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (efb3 at columbia.edu) > > ee> From: Edwin F Bryant > ee> Subject: Re: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit > > > ee> In Arabic, when you tell someone he is "speaking in > ee> Sanskrit", it means > ee> he is speaking nonsense, or incomprehensibly--perhaps the > ee> equivalent of telling someone in English that he is speaking > ee> double-Dutch. > ee> Edwin > > Oh my goodness... and here I am, a Dutch mother-tongue speaker who also speaks > a bit of Sanskrit... :-) > > - Robert Zydenbos > > > What does Edwin Bryant mean by double-Dutch? I thought it meant some kind of code speech using reduplication employed by children, especially girls. Allen Thrasher From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Mon Apr 14 08:01:16 1997 From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 10:01:16 +0200 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029635.23782.13752942572113087049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >By the way, would anyone care to contest Monier-Williams's analysis of >UrNavAbhi, wherein -vAbhi is "from an obsolete root vabh- [= Grk. hyphainO, >Old High Germ. web-an, "to weave"]? I myself cannot find any discussion of >this in the literature available to me. Does anyone with easy access to >Wackernagel-Debrunner care to look it up? See, e.g., Manfred Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, 1. Band, Heidelberg (Carl Winter Universitaetsverlag) 1992, p. 243, s.v. 'uur.naavabhi-: "... primaere Form eines regelrechten Kompositums "Wolle" ('uur.naa-) webend (s. VABH)" [vgl. neuhochdeutsch Weber, Web(er)spinne usw. ...]. - Durch Angleichung an VAA `weben' ... entstand daraus Maitraaya.nii Sa.mhitaa 'uur.na-v'aabhi-, weiter ... Kaa.thaka + uur.na-v'aabhi- ... Dieses erscheint volksetymologisch umgestaltet in Taittiriiya-Braahma.na + uur.na-n'aabhi-, Upani.sad -naabha (~ n'aabhi- `Nabe[l]) ..." Best wishes, Roland Steiner From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Apr 14 20:03:52 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 10:03:52 -1000 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029665.23782.1580402831567633085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: Raja wrote: >> Sounds like the Hindi-speaking states at least pretend to >> study a third language, while we great and glorious Tamils >> have dropped even the pretence of studying any language >> other than Tamil and Hindi. Which one sounds more fanatical ? > ^^^^^ > English ? Yes, I meant English. Thank you. > I think more people in the world would study Tamil if we > Tamilians would achieve something remarkable. Many people > are now learning Japanese and Korean. It's because of those > peoples' achievements. Not because of their boasting, quarreling, > ^^^^^^^^^^ > and being just plain unpleasant. You can't even sell a Big Mac by being > confrontational. Much less convince people to study your culture. > > Its' interesting that you get most quarrelsome and pontificating > whenever someone brings up this issue... earlier, it was Robert Well, I'll just repeat, this time about my own behaviour: "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." :-) :-) I apologize for being quarrelsome. > Zydenbos and others discussing the very real marginalization of > other Indian languages. My observation is that Indian languages (including Hindi) are all being marginalized by English. Hindi -- if at all it's a "threat" to other languages, which I doubt -- is much less so than English. Young kids in Madras nowadays are chattering away in English (not in Tamil, definitely not in Hindi). I was unable to find any good-quality Tamil books or tapes for my daughter, despite searching for two days in Trichy, and one day in Madras. I was told "There aren't any." (No, the Tamil books had not been driven out by Hindi books. You can easily guess which language books were easily available everywhere). Seriously, what do you think? Is it English or Hindi that is displacing Tamil among many Tamil-speakers? Since you live in Michigan (as I used to), perhaps you attend meetings of the Detroit/Michigan Tamil Sangham. In what language do most people -- Tamilians from TN, most of them -- talk at those meetings? You'd expect that people would see a "Tamil Sangham" meeting as a rare opportunity to speak Tamil, wouldn't you? But in reality...? This used to be primarily a Tamil Brahmin problem. Unfortunately, that isn't true any longer. I don't mind about the "takeover" by English. I think it has become part of "Tamil culture." But it bugs me when people quietly ignore that fact and pick on Hindi. That seems like people in search of a grievance, rather than people who are really concerned about what's happening to Tamil. Regards, Raja. ----------------------------------------------------------- And one final repetition, again applicable to myself as well as to others: "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." Thank you. :-) :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- From athr at loc.gov Mon Apr 14 15:58:07 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 11:58:07 -0400 Subject: P.p.c. Message-ID: <161227029656.23782.432492322358551907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be away (Rome and Arezzo) April 15-21 inclusice and presumably be back at work on April 22. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Apr 14 11:02:47 1997 From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 12:02:47 +0100 Subject: Elegy Literature Message-ID: <161227029636.23782.4969994253113876035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: Re: Elegy Literature (...) Dear list-members, Tuebingen university library has acquired the follwing PhD thesis. Its shelf number is: 1 G 3178 - So long, Gabriele -------------- Yoshitaka Terada, Multiple interpretations of a charismatic individual: the case of the great Nagasvaram musician, T. N. Rajarattinam Pillai. PhD thesis, 1992, Univ. of Washington, Seattle, 361p. ------------------- (...) ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr Gabriele Zeller Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 Tuebingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub ---------------------------------------------------------- From srini at engin.umich.edu Mon Apr 14 16:20:30 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 12:20:30 -0400 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029658.23782.17124760800416095063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sounds like the Hindi-speaking states at least pretend to study a third language, while we great and glorious Tamils have dropped even the pretence of studying any language other than Tamil and Hindi. Which one sounds more fanatical ? ^^^^^ English ? Pretension is just swell, eh ? I think more people in the world would study Tamil if we Tamilians would achieve something remarkable. Many people are now learning Japanese and Korean. It's because of those peoples' achievements. Not because of their boasting, quarreling, ^^^^^^^^^^ and being just plain unpleasant. You can't even sell a Big Mac by being confrontational. Much less convince people to study your culture. Its' interesting that you get most quarrelsome and pontificating whenever someone brings up this issue... earlier, it was Robert Zydenbos and others discussing the very real marginalization of other Indian languages. -Srini. From jkcowart at io-online.com Mon Apr 14 19:51:07 1997 From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 12:51:07 -0700 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029663.23782.13027797589992413615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Philip Johnson wrote: >I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and >languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. I wonder if anyone is thinking of a way to create software by which one might universally apply all possible diacriticals to any existing font? It would be a formidable undertaking--and a most welcome development. J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From dicko at netletter.com Mon Apr 14 16:58:13 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 12:58:13 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029659.23782.11707455910690008688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Well, let me put it this way. If someone shows me something and says that >> it is one of a kind, and then I find something else that is of the *same* >> kind and show it to her, I have not merely shown that her argument is >> *improbable*. I have shown that it is wrong. No? That would depend greatly on what you mean by "same kind." In linguistics, one can generally only speak of similarities, not identities. Even with exact cognates, it is always a possibility that they evolved independently or through a natural association (e.g. "ma" as mother in various languages may not indicate any linguistic sameness other than a natural association of that sound with nursing). So I would question whether it is ever possible in linguistics to "find something else that is of the *same* kind" in the strictly logical way that you are indicating. We have to remember that neither linguistics nor history is an experimental science, so we are really always limited to inductive, not deductive logic. I would still agree that arguments from uniqueness or universality are less convincing than arguments of other kinds. But I would have a hard time believing that any historical or linguistic phenomenon was truly and without exception unique or universal anyway. When one argues that a word usage or linguistic element is "unique" to a region or language, what one almost always means is simply that it appears to occur with a much higher frequency there. Such claims are always as rough and probabilistic as our knowledge of history itself, and any refutation of such claims should also be weighed as probabilistic rather than with strict "true or false" logic. Going back to the question at hand, some interesting coindidences have been pointed out. To interpret this as proving or disproving any major theory of relationship between language groups would be premature to say the least. --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From bpj at netg.se Mon Apr 14 11:18:35 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:18:35 +0200 Subject: Call for co-op: webpage on different standards of transcription/transliteration (2) Message-ID: <161227029640.23782.2690002782707543725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > >Dear friends, > >I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and >languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. Any suggestions >and/or pointers to existing standards/proposals/existing habits are most >welcome. ALL languages and scripts are of interest. > >Thank you, > >Philip Jonsson Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this project! This is an ongoing work. I would especially appreciate any information any of you can give on 127-character ASCII-based transliterations of various languages and scripts. I intend to present these alongside .gif images of the original scripts as well as more traditional transliterations, as well as presenting comparative tables of alternative ASCII transliterations of the same scripts. I would also appreciate your help to propagate this request (including the original one) on mailing-lists and newsgroups concerned with linguistic scholarship, as well as other Internet fora where such transliteration schemes are in practical use. Again apologies to those who get multiple cross-posted copies! Please be sure to include my email adress and to point out that responses should go directly to me, since I see no point in burdening lists' traffic with responses to this request! Thank you, Philip Jonsson ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Mon Apr 14 11:59:26 1997 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:59:26 +0200 Subject: Prague Conference 1998 Message-ID: <161227029642.23782.5982836945206057050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, some of you asked the question whether we plan to publish the papers which will be presented at the Conference. Yes, we hope to prepare several volumes arranged by topic and to publish them in 1999 in Prague. Jan Dvorak, Organizing Committee P.S. Don't forget to register, the deadline is 30 April 1997! Visit our homepage http://www.ruk.cuni.cz/~dvorakj/southasia.html to see all relevant information and to register via the electronic registration form. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Apr 14 21:25:19 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 14:25:19 -0700 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029670.23782.8134869978204975158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > In response to a question of mine S. Palaniappan wrote: > > >The attitude of the Indian Government as experienced by Prof. Harman and the > >farcical following of three-language formula by Hindi-speaking states is > >well-known. > > Please excuse my ignorance but what is that three-language formula? Federal education policy in India requires that every accredited school teach three languages to children. Usually, for non-Hindi speaking states, this means that basic courses in English, Hindi and the regional language of the state are required. This means that if you are a Tamilian living in Bombay or a Punjabi living in Madras, you will most probably not be able to learn your native language at school. Sanskrit or a foreign language can be substituted as the third language in the higher grades, especially if you want to earn a high score in the state level examinations after the tenth grade. The fact that you can answer greater than 90% of a Sanskrit examination in English helps you earn the score, although you may not really learn any Sanskrit. > > >(They are supposed to study a non-Hindi language, but it is simply not done.) > > You mean a non-Hindi language to add as language of the Union? For Hindi speaking states, the third language is supposed to be another Indian language. The complaint is not about including a language to the official list of Indian languages, but about the actual practice of teaching (or not teaching) a non-Hindi language to native speakers of Hindi. Nowadays, I hear Tamil is becoming popular as a third language in Uttar Pradesh schools, because of the popularity of Periyar (E. V. Ramaswami Naicker) and Anna (C. N. Annadurai) among its politicians. > > >Tamilnadu and, if I am not mistaken, West Bengal openly adopted the two- > >language formula. > > Are you talking of a federal two-language formula (in which case how can > Tamilnadu and West Bengal do it on their own since this by definition > would involve the whole country?), but if you mean at the state level, Indian officialdom classifies most things into three lists - a union list, a state list and a joint list. Defense, currency etc. are on the union list and an individual state has no jurisdiction over them. Items on the state list are supposed to be under the sole jurisdiction of the individual state, but in practice, the union government usually gets involved in the form of special tribunals or some such - e.g. water rights and the disputes arising over the sharing of water among the different states through which a river flows. Education is on the joint list, which means that both the union govt and the state govt have a say in the matter. Tamil Nadu has eliminated teaching of Hindi from state-accredited schools. This means that if a domicile of the state of Tamil Nadu wants to learn Hindi, she should attend private classes, or else go to a school that follows a syllabus prescribed by NCERT (National Council for Educational Research and Training), instead of the local state examination board. Tamil Nadu's decision to boycott Hindi extends not only to education, but also to Doordarshan broadcasts of the news in Hindi. That time slot is used for Tamil news, whereas in a state like Maharashtra, Marathi news is broadcast at a different time. Thus, a state can sometimes take decisions on a joint-list item, that directly contradict official federal policy. Needless to say, this means that the state government has been dominated by a non-Congress party for most of the past 50 years. S. Vidyasankar From zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu Mon Apr 14 21:54:20 1997 From: zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu (zwilling) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 15:54:20 -0600 Subject: Double-Dutch Message-ID: <161227029668.23782.11363957601616118473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to the Dictionary of American Regional English (of which I have the honor to be an editor), Dutch (from Deutsch, as in Pennsylvania Dutch, i.e. Pennsylvania German) used with ref to incomprehensible speech, is attested in American English as far back as 1899, and double-Dutch, 1942. Allen Thrasher's "children's code speech" is actually a "jargon" made by systematically deforming words in the manner of pig Latin or goose Latin. One of our informants from Minnesota gave an ex of such deformation "in which 'eese' was put before the vowel in each syllable of a word, e.g. peese-a-peese-per for 'paper,' beese-ook for 'book." I hope this sheds some light on the question. Leonard Zwilling DARE From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Apr 14 14:55:14 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 16:55:14 +0200 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029650.23782.16424447754239856549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Raja wrote: >I think more people in the world would study Tamil >if we Tamilians would achieve something remarkable. >Many people are now learning Japanese and Korean. >It's because of those peoples' achievements. Not >because of their boasting, quarreling, and being >just plain unpleasant. You can't even sell a Big Mac >by being confrontational. Much less convince people >to study your culture. If it is any consolation to you, Narayan, the confrontational frenzy is a fact of life in all societies that enjoy the luxury of being the home of more than one language (to the best of my knowledge). Such societies can roughly be divided into two groups: Those where people kill for reasons of grammar, and those where people are just nasty to each other (e.g. speakers of Dutch and French in Belgium, and Norwegian adherents of "bokmaal" and "nynorsk"). In Norway the language debate has been a burning issue for almost a century, and in 1917, when the Russian revolution broke loose, the Norwegian cartoonist Blix pictured a bunch of angry Norwegian revolutionaries building barricades in the streets. They are visited by a Russian commissar who asks them: "How is the revolution coming along in Norway?". The answer: "So far, we have been fighting about how to spell it". Is there any consolation in this? Anyway, I agree that a confrontational attitude rarely brings any good in such conflicts. Conflicts are very much number games. If noone is able to gain a decisive advantage, and that is usually the case in such matters, the conflicts drag on forever and cause the waste of tremendous resources. India has more than enough conflicts. We should not contribute to make the situation worse. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From efb3 at columbia.edu Mon Apr 14 22:01:05 1997 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 18:01:05 -0400 Subject: VYAKARAN: Re: Speaking in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029672.23782.6872997364371012107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Double-Dutch is UK English. Someone on this list suggested the idiomatic American equivalent of this would be "speaking in Greek". Edwin From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Apr 15 02:47:25 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 20:47:25 -0600 Subject: Churki/kuDumi Message-ID: <161227029675.23782.14617354101825030828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: CHURKI Is churki/juu.Du attested in Vedas or post-Vedic literature? cuuTu is to wear, in Tamil. cuuTu and juuDa look pretty close. kuDumi means mountain top, and also churki in Tamil. Sangam Tamil poems show warriors wearing kuDumi. Could this be a custom adapted by Brahmins from Dravidians and later on, came to be associated with Brahmanical culture? Did Jains always shave off their head? When Tiruvalluvar says, "mazhiththalum, nITTalum vENDaa" he seems to refer to the complete shaving off by Jain monks and kuDumis of Samnyasis. By the way, the chinese tale of tying down the churki to a nail in the ceiling, during a long night of study for examinations is very current in Tamil Nadu. I heard it 30 years ago in my village. I did not know it has a chinese parellel. Like the Nambudiris, the ChOziya Brahmins were also having kuDumi in the front (munkuDumi). Periyavaachchaan PiLLai, Vyakhyana Charavarti in Srivaishnavism is a ChOziya Brahmin, if my memory is right. There is a proverb "chOziyan kuDumi summa aaDaathu" - "The kuDumi of the Brahmin from Chola country does not swing without a reason". There is a nice story behind this proverb. If I find out, I will post. N. Ganesan From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Apr 15 03:22:13 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 21:22:13 -0600 Subject: Speaking in (or) of Sanskrit or Tamil Message-ID: <161227029677.23782.6612571059097787646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Speaking in (or) of Sanskrit (or) Tamil ********************************************** as Dr. Deshpande's observations. Just like "Speak Sanskrit" courses, the Tamil sangam events serve a similar purpose. Cultural togetherness, avoiding alienation, going back to "roots", seeing your own kind, ... People are comfortable in simple talks, skits, jokes or at their best, reading a Bharathiyar poem. Of course, they are into latest cinemas. Little deep, - prabandhams, TirukkuRaL, Kamban, or Cilappathikaram. the general public avoid contact with them. As an image to invoke "heritage", yes. But reading & exploring, a definite NO! Tamil Nadu Foundation, annually brings two retired/retiring Tamil professors to their July 4th convention. They go on a US wide tour. Many years I have hosted these scholars. From them, I gather in Tamilnadu too, things are not very different. As an image to invoke "heritage", yes. But reading & exploring, a definite NO! This is the interest of classical Tamil or Sanskrit literature. Is it different in Europe for classical Greek or Latin studies? N. Ganesan From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Mon Apr 14 19:34:03 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 21:34:03 +0200 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029661.23782.13150004422897481462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I realize this is a contentious issue but I'm sure this doesn't need to degenerate. Not on this list, I hope. I was simply interested in understanding the logic behind language policies, unless of course it is just a historical accident. Beside the interest it presents for understanding India, to me it is also interesting because some day, if Europe is ever to become something real politically, I suspect there will be a lot of the same arguments going on here. For now what I seem to gather is that the problem is not soluble. I wonder if one radical solution was ever envisaged, namely a "no official language" policy? In practice a language needs to be chosen, but on a case by case basis, with no symbolic implications attached and with the practical importance of having one single communication language in specific cases being more obvious to everyone, wouldn't that be easier? For example can I assume the Indian armed forces function in only one language? (English? Hindi?) From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Apr 14 20:09:13 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 22:09:13 +0200 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029667.23782.11056354988311473499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:43 14.04.97 BST, you wrote: >I realize this is a contentious issue but I'm sure >this doesn't need to degenerate. Not on this list, >I hope. I was simply interested in understanding >the logic behind language policies, unless of course >it is just a historical accident. Beside the interest >it presents for understanding India, to me it is also >interesting because some day, if Europe is ever to >become something real politically, I suspect there >will be a lot of the same arguments going on here. > >For now what I seem to gather is that the problem is >not soluble. I wonder if one radical solution was >ever envisaged, namely a "no official language" policy? As far as Europe is concerned, here is a recipe for creating a common language: Introduce Esperanto gradually in schools all over Europe and define as your objective that Esperanto shall be the official link language of Europe in a given year, say 2050. I think this could be done, and Europe would have a link language that did not belong to anyone in particular, so that national pride would not be hurt. However, in Europe as in India, everybody is jealously guarding their own linguistic interests, partially for fear of being swamped by English (or, perhaps, American), but also for reasons of national pride. It seems inevitable to me that a multi-language state needs a link language, unless you want to create a wonderful market for translators and interpreters (and a lot of practical problems). India might have settled for English, but chose Hindi because it was an Indic language and not a European one, and because it was the language spoken by the largest group of people in India. Given the political reactions, the choice was probably not a wise one, but that is a different story. It is truly hard to make everybody happy. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Mon Apr 14 23:32:51 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 01:32:51 +0200 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029674.23782.14558289470102558690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to thank Sundaresan Vidyasankar for answering my questions in a relaxed, factual, dispassionate, informative manner. I hadn't realized the "three-language formula" was something which had to do only with educational policy, so I might have asked what could seem like somewhat odd questions. Thank you for clarifying it all. Jacob From kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu Tue Apr 15 13:50:22 1997 From: kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu (kradhikary at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 08:50:22 -0500 Subject: Software for preparing a bibliography Message-ID: <161227029690.23782.11166642007727114919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all, Thank you all who responded to my bibliogaphy software query. It has been very helpful, and I am grateful to you all. Regards, Kamal >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Kamal R. Adhikary wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I am looking for software for compiling an annotated bibliography. >> If any of you know such software and let me know the name of the >> software/company name I would really appreciate it. Thanks. >> > >Kamal, >The software 'PROCITE' will work for you. Check out the complete >details at http://www.risinc.com/ > >good luck, > > > >d e e p a k g u p t a >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak > All the best, kamal From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Tue Apr 15 09:11:26 1997 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:11:26 +0000 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029678.23782.13992973953760308756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Apr 97 at 21:06, J. Kingston Cowart wrote: >Philip Johnson wrote: > > >>I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and >>languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. > >I wonder if anyone is thinking of a way to create software by which one >might universally apply all possible diacriticals to any existing font? > >It would be a formidable undertaking--and a most welcome development. > >J. Kingston Cowart I have made a TrueType font, called LeedsAccent, containing all the Latin-alphabet characters I can cram into it, plus all the diacriticals that I know of. The diacriticals are coded separately, so almost any accent(s) can be combined with any character. The font is free for non-commercial use. It's not particularly beautiful, being based on Bitstream Charter, but it works. (I'm working on another version, to look more like Times New Roman, as well as a Cyrillic equivalent.) I'd be happy to send copies to anyone who is interested. I suggest that you send such requests off-list. Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From fp7 at columbia.edu Tue Apr 15 13:55:09 1997 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:55:09 -0400 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil-- and ENGLISH Message-ID: <161227029688.23782.13134842707652585645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just came back from a visit to North India and Pakistan. I found that more than ever, my Urdu (and Hindi) literary friends have their kids in English-medium schools. Then they complain that Urdu (or Hindi) is not well taught in the child's school, thus the child is not learning it well or taking enough interest in it. Some of them try very hard to supplement the child's education with home experience, storybooks, videos, etc., or even private tutorials in their own language. Others of them just complain a lot but are resigned. In the first case, the result tends to be a child who knows English better and the South Asian language more or less adequately (especially on a passive level, for understanding rather than sophisticated speech). In the second case, the result tends to be a child who knows only a sub-literary "street" version of his or her "own" or "native" language. English is definitely a *preferred* language for most of these elite kids, right from their childhood. It almost calls into question the concept of "native" language, in some cases. Maybe the people I know are atypical? But I doubt it... my friends themselves think they are not, they feel that the problem is deep and widespread. I don't know what can or should be done about this, if anything. After all, it's the direct result of people's own choices within the culture, and those choices are the result of pressures we can all recognize and understand. The utility of English as the incipient "world language" seems to be even more obvious to the next generation than it is to this one. In practice as opposed to theory, many people hardly seem to be resisting it at all. Let's hope for some kind of swing of the cultural pendulum that will cause people to be more seriously committed to *real* bilingualism and *genuine* literary maintenance of the modern South Asian languages than many of them they now appear to be. From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Tue Apr 15 09:21:04 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:21:04 +0100 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029682.23782.12303938275925325453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J. Kingston Cowart wrote: > I wonder if anyone is thinking of a way to create software by which one > might universally apply all possible diacriticals to any existing font? I have written a program to do more-or-less this. "All possible diacriticals" is perhaps a bit strong, but it will place one or more *existing* accents on any *existing* character in a given font. Since high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, and many other fonts are now available as free software (as part of the Ghostscript package), it should soon be posible to create and distribute legal, free fonts with any desired set of accented characters. > It would be a formidable undertaking--and a most welcome development. When you get down to it, it isn't all that formidable, and I'm surprised it hasn't been done before. My program is still under development, but you may expect a beta release within weeks. I also intend to make free fonts available in various suitable encodings -- CSX and Norman, for example. This may take a little longer, as it will be necessary to prepare different versions for different requirements -- PC and Mac, Truetype and PostScript. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From jagat at polyinter.com Tue Apr 15 14:43:05 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:43:05 -0400 Subject: ra.ngana Message-ID: <161227029694.23782.3727379500285484304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:00 97-04-14 BST, you wrote: >In Rupa Gosvami's Vidagdhamaadhava there is a reference to a "ra.ngana" >garland (Act II). This does not appear to be a flower. Etymologically, it >seems to come from "ra.nga" ("play," perhaps sport, but also in the sense >of drama). > >Can anyone shed more light on this garland? > What's wrong with 'dancing, merry-making' from ra.ng (Dhaatup. iv.33) 'to move to and fro'? Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Tue Apr 15 17:46:07 1997 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:46:07 -0700 Subject: recent publication Message-ID: <161227029680.23782.3316010759956388036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I would like to draw your attention to our recent publication on rock carvings and inscriptions from the upper Indus valley in the Northern Areas of Pakistan: Die Felsbildstation Shatial by G. Fussman and D. Koenig with contributions by O. von Hinueber, Th.O. Hoellmann, K. Jettmar and N. Sims-Williams in collab. with M. Bemmann. Mainz (Verlag Philipp von Zabern) 1997. (Materialien zur Archaeologie der Nordgebiete Pakistans 2) 427 pages and 136 plates, hb., price less than 200 DM. ISBN 3-8053-2027-2 The second volume of "Materialien zur Archaeologie der Nordgebiete Pakistans" is dealing with the petroglyph site Shatial, 60km west of Chilas in the upper Indus valley of Pakistan. As manifested in the rock carvings this place was a traffic junction where, during the first centuries AD, influences from Central and South Asia met. The most remarkable feature of this site is the unique concentration of more than 550 Sogdian (and other Iranian) inscriptions. Besides there are more than 400 inscriptions in Brahmi, Kharosthi, Proto-Sarada and Chinese and many representations of stupas of particular quality. Some of the other engravings like tamgas, fire altars and animal drawings, too, refer to the Sogdians, a lot of other carvings show other cultural influences. Key words: Rock Art, Buddhism, Archaeology South Asia, Iranian Epigraphy, Indian Epigraphy, Onomastics. -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway< Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg -- Germany phone: ++49-6221-543276 fax: ++49-6221-543355 e-mail: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Apr 15 19:14:54 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 12:14:54 -0700 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029699.23782.4403594557954123102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J. Kingston Cowart wrote: > >I'm preparing a webpage dealing with transcription of various scripts and > >languages, as well as phonetic notation, in ASCII and HTML. > > I wonder if anyone is thinking of a way to create software by which one > might universally apply all possible diacriticals to any existing font? My $.02 -- LaTeX using the WSU IPA and TIPA packages allows you to apply all possible diacriticals to any letter. The only drawback to this is that you have to use the Computer Modern typeface (unless you're willing to shell out some money to get fonts from Adobe, etc.). Regards, Anshuman Pandey From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Apr 15 18:47:51 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 14:47:51 -0400 Subject: Attitudes to Hindi, Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227029697.23782.16553261549745769643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Sriranga Raja wrote: "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." :-) :-) Unfortunately, there are many instances of stupidity in Indian education policy and language policy... these are compounding in nature and soon amount to gross insenstivity at least, if not malice. My observation is that Indian languages (including Hindi) are all being marginalized by English. Hindi -- if at all it's a "threat" to other languages, which I doubt -- is much less so than English. Seriously, what do you think? Is it English or Hindi that is displacing Tamil among many Tamil-speakers? Robert Zydenbos' main thrust was the marginalization of other languages in Indological studies... I was merely referring to the arguments you presented then. In any case, that's quite a different issue from your angst as a Tamil speaker or Kannada speaker or Hindi speaker in India, of being overrun by English. Tamil may very well be losing out to English... but it is still _perceived_ by many as desirable and as a matter of right choice... since it is seen as a language of modernisation, empowerment, and what not. Hindi on the other hand is quite irrelevant in this whole scenario... hence any efforts to impose its use, as has been tried at various junctures, is unwelcome. Since you live in Michigan (as I used to), perhaps you attend meetings of the Detroit/Michigan Tamil Sangham. In what language do most people -- Tamilians from TN, most of them -- talk at those meetings? You'd expect that people would see a "Tamil Sangham" meeting as a rare opportunity to speak Tamil, wouldn't you? But in reality...? I am afraid that you may have seen very little of the Michigan Tamil Sangam... I have been here for 12 years and have been on its Executive Committee for a year... most gatherings are largely social affairs, and so people talk to each other mostly in colloquial Tamil, and additionally in English, Telugu, and even Marathi (since there are a good many Bombayites who like to keep up their Marathi). But when the President or Secretary gets up to speak to the crowd, they try to speak in formal Tamil... with people like Ramalinga Raja (son of the great poet Namakkal Kavignar), Shantha Jayabalan (who has taught Tamil at U of M, off and on), I must say that it has been pretty successful. Tamil movies, dramas, etc are a big draw... the crowd at literary events is very sparse... but this is as expected. This used to be primarily a Tamil Brahmin problem. Unfortunately, that isn't true any longer. I don't mind about the "takeover" by English. I think it has become part of "Tamil culture." But it bugs me when people quietly ignore that fact and pick on Hindi. That seems like people in search of a grievance, rather than people who are really concerned about what's happening to Tamil. It is unfortunate that you raise the caste issue... but since you mention it, I have to remark that it is largely Brahmins, and mostly Tamil Brahmins domiciled outside TN, who are at their carping best on this issue, paying little attention to even the reasoned and reasonable voices coming out of TN. Tamils within TN itself couldn't care less... as I said, they see English as a language of empowerment... and those with all-India aspirations take to Hindi on their own initiative. It is when Big Brother comes down with 3-language poop for their schools, that they revolt. They would rather be learning Tamil/English/Java or English/Java/Mocha. -Srini. ps: Please do not mistake me for a Hindi-hater ;-) Since my father was all-India transferable, I studied in Central Schools all my life... Hindi was our first language and we did even Social Studies (Hist/Geo/Civics) entirely in Hindi... so, to use the felicitous Americanism, I can kickass in Hindi and indeed do so with mirth ! From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Tue Apr 15 13:14:43 1997 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 15:14:43 +0200 Subject: Punthi Pustak - address? Message-ID: <161227029685.23782.6701212022284379165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Does anyone of you know the address of the Punthi Pustak publishing house (INDIA)? Thank You. Jan Dvorak P.S. Thank to all who responded to my last queries about Vikram Seth. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Apr 15 22:40:55 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 15:40:55 -0700 Subject: Problems in Indian democracy (was Re: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit)) Message-ID: <161227029709.23782.13280570008269235265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 2. It is during the darkest period of Indian democracy thus > far that education was moved to the Concurrent List - the > Emergency during the mid-70s when many liberties were arbitrarily > suspended, governments were dissolved on a whim, and hooshiinis > of a number of people cut off. Almost every Indian shares these concerns regarding Indian democracy. Not only education, over the years many other items of jurisdiction have been consistently moved from the state to the concurrent list. Some of these transfers have also been justified under the Directive Principles of State Policy. And then, along comes a mindless bureaucrat who ensures that the regional voice is completely ignored/suppressed for the sake of a unity which exists more on paper than in practice. These kinds of actions account in no small part for the various separatist movements one finds in India. Parliamentary democracy in India has moved from crisis to crisis, and we are seeing the fruits of its history now. S. Vidyasankar ps. Are there any legal/constitutional experts on this list who think that President Sharma should have told the Congress to introduce a no-confidence motion against Deve Gowda, instead of asking Gowda to seek a second trust vote? After all, as the Congress party withdrew its support, shouldn't the onus be on them to prove their point on the floor? I thought that the Indian constitution requires a trust vote only for a freshly formed government following elections. The outcome might have been the same, but isn't the parliamentary process as important as its outcome? Now, a precedent has been set whereby the president officially recognizes a coalition government as always being hostage to the whims of a supporter. Any party can table a no-confidence motion, however many times it wishes during the tenure of a government, but how many trust votes is a government expected to seek? Am I alone in thinking that this is an unhappy precedent to set for the future, which is almost certainly going to feature hung parliaments and coalition governments? From bpj at netg.se Tue Apr 15 13:47:38 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 15:47:38 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029687.23782.2357021525636104092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:36 14.4.1997 +0100, Allen Thrasher wrote: >Re St. Napoleon: > >There is one, though I am doing reference duty at the Asian RR desk and >can't check Butler's Lives of the Saints. How do you think Buonaparte got >his Christian name? Napoleon the Emperor encouraged the spread of the >cult of Napoleon the Saint, without much permanent success, obviously. Not surprising, but the emperor has effectively eclipsed the saint as "owner" of the name. >I asked my late colleague Dr. Sam Iftikhar, a Pakistani (Punjabi) >Christian (Presbyterian), once, why S. Asian Christians sometimes had for >personal names English family names. He said they were the names of >specially respected missionaries. Which implies that it was not thought >that every European name and only European names were suitable for >Christians. > >My impression is that S. Asian Christian females are more likely to have >'Indian' (large scare quotes) names in addition to or instead of a saint's >name than males. I read once that while Sikh males always have typical Sikh names, that is not always so with women, since "Hindu" (VERY big scare-quotes!!) girls' names are perceived as more "feminine". Is anyone of you able to confirm/refute this? It's interesting because many European languages also seem to be more open to foreign female names than to foreign male names. BPJ ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk Tue Apr 15 15:49:01 1997 From: jds10 at cus.cam.ac.uk (John Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 16:49:01 +0100 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029695.23782.6646570208051325164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Mr B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless Knowledge] wrote: > At 10:30 15.4.1997 +0100, John Smith wrote: > > >high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, and many other fonts are now > >available as free software (as part of the Ghostscript package), it should > >soon be posible to create and distribute legal, free fonts with any > >desired set of accented characters. > > This is great good news indeed. Where can those be found? My customers > always want diacriticized versions of Times, and I've had to pesuade them > into using another font or strech my conscience... As I said (and as you quote!), "*it should soon be posible* to create and distribute legal, free fonts with any desired set of accented characters." They do not yet exist. When they exist, I shall announce them to members of Indology (and elsewhere). John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From bpj at netg.se Tue Apr 15 14:55:50 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 16:55:50 +0200 Subject: Universally applicable diacriticals Message-ID: <161227029692.23782.11612153400710220758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:30 15.4.1997 +0100, John Smith wrote: >high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, and many other fonts are now >available as free software (as part of the Ghostscript package), it should >soon be posible to create and distribute legal, free fonts with any >desired set of accented characters. This is great good news indeed. Where can those be found? My customers always want diacriticized versions of Times, and I've had to pesuade them into using another font or strech my conscience... Philip PS for J. Kingston Cowart: I have been away a lot the last week and an horrendous backmail has amassed. I will get back to you privately ASAP! ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Apr 15 21:35:20 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 17:35:20 -0400 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029704.23782.934390485417859101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to thank Sundaresan Vidyasankar for answering my questions in a relaxed, factual, dispassionate, informative manner. I hadn't realized the "three-language formula" was something which had to do only with educational policy, so I might have asked what could seem like somewhat odd questions. Thank you for clarifying it all. Jacob I am afraid that there are a lot more unpleasant/disturbing details than what one can gather from Vidyasankar's post... for people interested in a healthy democracy and federalist structure and for folks interested in the history of these policies... here are some of them... I apologize in advance for violating Dominik's 2 screen rule. 1. Originally, in the Indian Constitution, education was not on the Concurrent list but was entirely in the State list. This had its antecendents in the 1935 Govt of India act which had provided for provincial jurisdiction over education. The Constitution framers thus took into account the length and breadth of the country, the huge population, the wide linguistic, cultural and ethnic diversities. 2. It is during the darkest period of Indian democracy thus far that education was moved to the Concurrent List - the Emergency during the mid-70s when many liberties were arbitrarily suspended, governments were dissolved on a whim, and hooshiinis of a number of people cut off. Here is a quote from Siba Bhattacharya and Luna Kayal's "Indian Education Policy Study" (Ajanta Publications, 1995). The authors are faculty at the Dept of Education, Univ of Calcutta. "Developments of a far graver import took place subsequently. The trend towards centralisation gathered momentum in the country from the early 1970's, and those in control of the Union government began to betray increasingly pronounced authoritarian trends. A decision was reached in this climate to remove education from the State List and place it in the Concurrent List. A few State governments had strong reservations regarding such a reversal of Constitutional arrangements; their voices lost out. Most of the State governments were in any case still under the dominance of the political party which also exercised authority at the Centre; opposition on their part to the Centre's move was either perfunctory or non-existent. Taking advantage of the extraordinary circumstances that prevailed during the Emergency, in 1976 the Union Government rushed through Parliament an amendment of the Constitution which transferred education to the Concurrent List." 3. The Concurrent List has turned out to be a misnomer despite Article 246 of the Indian Constitution. Legislation, administrative measures taken by the Union Govt has precedence over similar measures of a State Govt. The implications are clear - the Concurrent List can be construed/implemented just like an Union List... thus severely marginalizing a State Govt's role. 4. The first National Educational Policy was voiced in 1968, wherein the 3 language formula was given an impetus... it came right on the heels of the severe and tragic disturbances of 1965 when Hindi was supposed to take over as THE official language and English was supposed to die... well, in the event, the deadline on English was postponed sine die ;-) The question arises as to why a 3-language formula for education as in English/Hindi/ would be stressed right after things soured... and right after "unfriendly" governments came to power... the whole thing has a Machiavellian ring to it. The earlier form of inducement in the South to learn the Hindi language i.e Dakshin Bharat Hindi PracAr Sabha and so on seems to have been relatively innocuous... their role could have been stressed. [Autobiographical note: ammA, sister, and self did go thru this route to achieve Hindi proficiency before joining Kendriya Vidyalaya where we sang "bhArat kA svarNim gaurav kendriya vidyAlay lAyegA takSas'ilA nAlandA kA itihAs lauT kar AyegA".] 5. Despite the ceaseless chant of "unity within diversity", many Central measures, including the educational, overlook the diversities which enrich the nation and the need to nurture them. 6. Here are some expert opinions on the 3-language formula: "The so-called three language formula, which proposed that school going children in States north of the Vindhyas would learn a southern language and similarly children in the South would learn a northern language, in addition to their respective mother tongue and English, did not make any headway. Nor has it been possible to introduce Hindi as a compulsory third language, in addition to the mother tongue and English, in the primary and secondary stages in the different parts of the country." (Bhattacharya. op.cit.) "With the failure of the Three Language Formula in the Hindi speaking States (see Table 3), bilingualism has not spread in the Hindi States. All translations from and into Hindi are done by scholars of other languages. Consequently during the past 44 years Hindi has hardly absorbed any elements from the other non-Hindi languages. As against the national average of 13.34%, bilingualism in the Hindi States is the lowest i.e. 4.76% (1981 Census)." (Bh.Krishnamurti. "Official Language Policies with Special Reference to the Eighth Schedule of the Constitution of India" in Language and the State: Perspectives on the Eighth Schedule. Creative Books, New Delhi,1995. A collection of articles by distinguished scholars. 7. Again a quote from Bhattacharya (op.cit.) regarding the Navodaya Vidyalaya scheme of secondary level education, introduced by the Central Govt in the middle '80s... one model school in all the districts of the country... "The children admitted to these schools are expected to forsake their mother tongue and agree to have, both as the medium of instruction and as language courses, only Hindi and English. Provisions will be made for teaching these children other foreign languages, but not their own mother tongue nor any other Indian language. This, to put it mildly, is perversity at its worst. The seeming unreasonableness of the scheme does not quite end here. A State Govt must accept its details in toto, otherwise no funds will be forthcoming from the Centre under this head." 8. Finally, a little real data... the Eighth 5-Year Plan (92-97) outlay for education allots Rs. 7443.00 crores to the Centre and Rs.12156.73 crores to the States and Union Territories. Concurrent List... indeed ! -Srini. Ref: 1. Indian Education Policy Study. Ajanta Publication, 1995. Authors: Siba Bhattacharya and Luna Kayal. 2. Language and the State. Creative Books, 1995. Editors: R.S.Gupta, Anvita Abhi, Kailash S.Aggarwal. 3. Language movements in India. Central Inst of Indian languages. 1979. Editor: E.Annamalai. 4. National Policy on Education - 1986. Ministry of Human Resource Development, Govt of India. New Delhi, May 1986. From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Apr 15 22:05:44 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 18:05:44 -0400 Subject: languages (question) (was Re: pronunciation of Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227029707.23782.14786181686183936280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Hindi speaking states, the third language is supposed to be another Indian language. The complaint is not about including a language to the official list of Indian languages, but about the actual practice of teaching (or not teaching) a non-Hindi language to native speakers of Hindi. Nowadays, I hear Tamil is becoming popular as a third language in Uttar Pradesh schools, because of the popularity of Periyar (E. V. Ramaswami Naicker) and Anna (C. N. Annadurai) among its politicians. I wonder if there are any hard facts to support this... I too have heard somewhere that Telugu is studied in some Haryana schools... but Bh.Krishnamurti (Osmania Univ), Siba Bhattacharya (Calcutta Univ) discount the 3-language policy's working in the Hindi speaking states and elsewhere. In any case, the inclusion of EVR in the list above is interesting since he didn't lay much store by Tamil. Tamil Nadu has eliminated teaching of Hindi from state-accredited schools. This means that if a domicile of the state of Tamil Nadu wants to learn Hindi, she should attend private classes, or else go to a school that follows a syllabus prescribed by NCERT (National Council for Educational Research and Training), instead of the local state examination board. I am not sure if this is right or if this is a recent development... I know of people who have studied Hindi in state-accredited schools in TN... it all depended upon the school's resources. But you can't study it in a TN state run school, I believe... like the schools run by Madras Corporation. Corrections ? For the sake of completeness, one needs to mention that Mizoram and Pondicherry (which is completely surrounded by TN anyway, except for the Bay of Bengal) too don't have Hindi in their schools. But since this data comes from Chaturvedi and Mohale 1976, the situation may have changed in Mizoram. Tamil Nadu's decision to boycott Hindi extends not only to education, but also to Doordarshan broadcasts of the news in Hindi. That time slot is used for Tamil news, whereas in a state like Maharashtra, Marathi news is broadcast at a different time. This has to be seen in light of the overbearing attitude of folks in the Central Govt who feel the desire to push Hindi down everyone's throats. Very real measures and directives in various sectors like railways, post and communications, banking, insurance, etc and of course on Doordarshan attest to this attitude. s'ubh kAmanAyen, -Srini. From cssetzer at mum.edu Wed Apr 16 00:05:46 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:05:46 -0500 Subject: Re Manava Dharma Sastra, original devanagari Message-ID: <161227029712.23782.12656781809841552548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try www.amazon.com They have over 2.5 million books, and will search for others at your request. Claude Setzer ---------- > From: Leon Fernando Del Canto > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re Manava Dharma Sastra, original devanagari > Date: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 3:38 PM > > Dear friends, > > I have two different copies in English and one in Spanish (translated > from German) of the Manu Code but I would like to get a copy of an > original Samskrit text. Could you send me a bookstore or publisher > address where I can order from? > > Thanks a lot, > > Fernando > --------------- > Leon Fernando Del Canto > Edificio EL CARMEN 201 > 11403 Jerez de la Fra > SPAIN > Tfax: +34-56-333570 > email: lfdelcanto at redestb.es > > From rtumkur at ford.com Wed Apr 16 00:21:37 1997 From: rtumkur at ford.com (rtumkur at ford.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 20:21:37 -0400 Subject: From Sanskrit pronunciation to Indian Constituition Message-ID: <161227029710.23782.1446473522289212682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Vidyasankar from "indology at liverpool.ac.uk" wrote {some stuff snipped} >Now, a precedent has been set whereby the president officially recognizes >a coalition government as always being hostage to the whims of a >supporter. Any party can table a no-confidence motion, however many times >it wishes during the tenure of a government, but how many trust votes is a >government expected to seek? Am I alone in thinking that this is an >unhappy precedent to set for the future, which is almost certainly going ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >to feature hung parliaments and coalition governments? > You are certainly not alone in thinking about precedents such as these being set for the future. But then, since 1969 as I can remember, no opportunity seems to have been missed to set as precedent, things clearly in open violation of the spirit of the Constitution - foisting of Chief Ministers on states, Governors reporting to Prime Minister, Department Secretaries (IAS cadres) taking orders from Party chiefs, open support of dissidence and so on. In the current situation, it may not be too much to expect Annual Elections hence forth. -- ramu From lfdelcanto at redestb.es Tue Apr 15 19:21:43 1997 From: lfdelcanto at redestb.es (Leon Fernando Del Canto) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:21:43 +0200 Subject: Re Manava Dharma Sastra, original devanagari Message-ID: <161227029700.23782.9711508618900631922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I have two different copies in English and one in Spanish (translated from German) of the Manu Code but I would like to get a copy of an original Samskrit text. Could you send me a bookstore or publisher address where I can order from? Thanks a lot, Fernando --------------- Leon Fernando Del Canto Edificio EL CARMEN 201 11403 Jerez de la Fra SPAIN Tfax: +34-56-333570 email: lfdelcanto at redestb.es From thompson at jlc.net Wed Apr 16 01:27:14 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:27:14 -0400 Subject: Re Manava Dharma Sastra, original devanagari Message-ID: <161227029713.23782.12422885857290652322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Try www.amazon.com > >They have over 2.5 million books, and will search for others at your >request. > >Claude Setzer > As far as I can tell, www.amazon.com has a lot of books but few of them are Sanskrit books. Perhaps the D.K. Agency or some other Indian bookseller could serve us better. Europeans might best be served by those stores in Leiden, or by Harrassowitz, and No. Americans by South Asia Books. Good luck, George Thompson From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Tue Apr 15 19:41:46 1997 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 21:41:46 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029702.23782.239370193884066533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is hardly an indological matter, but since the question got asked, I may as well add my bizarre grain of salt. Re Napoleon the Emperor encouraged the spread of the cult of Napoleon the Saint, without much permanent success, obviously. Well, actually, in the Roman Catholic Church nearest to my home, Eglise St Germain in Le Chesnay-Rocquencourt (Yvelines, France), there is a nice stain glass labeled "St Napoleon" and with a striking resemblance to the Emperor. This church used to be the Chapel of the Palace of Princess Murat, Napoleon's sister. I know no other instance in France, though. GH From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Apr 16 02:37:19 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:37:19 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029716.23782.870877891665086372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos) wrote: > It is possible (or likely?) that a parallel, though certainly not cognate, > construction in the Dravidian languages has contributed to the popularity of > -tavant, namely the combination of a relative participle with a pronominal > ending. E.g.: Kannada maa.dida-, or Tamil ceyta-, is the past relative > participle which means "having done" or "which / who did" (I am now slightly > simplifying the matter), and Ka. maa.didavanu, Ta. ceytava_n, with the > suffixes -vanu and -va_n, mean "he who did", which would be suitably > translated into Sanskrit as k.rtavaan. I don't know Kannada. But in colloquial Tamil, the past tense is not expressed using participle like forms. The typical formation would be ``vii.t.tukku ppo_n~e'' and not ``vii.t.tukku po_nav~a n~aa'' [~ preceding a vowel indicates nasalization, and corresponds to a word-final _n following in formal Tamil.] Participles are used in place of relative claueses and to put emphasis on the subject, but not, AFAIK, as the typical means of expressing the past tense. From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 16 05:23:07 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 01:23:07 -0400 Subject: ra.ngana Message-ID: <161227029718.23782.5521381902453303614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-14 15:42:43 EDT, wgw at dnai.com (WILLIAM G WALL) writes: << In Rupa Gosvami's Vidagdhamaadhava there is a reference to a "ra.ngana" garland (Act II). This does not appear to be a flower. Etymologically, it seems to come from "ra.nga" ("play," perhaps sport, but also in the sense of drama). Can anyone shed more light on this garland? Thanks, Bill >> In Tamil and other Dravidian languages, there is an affective-effective pair of verbs, i.e., 'araGku'-'arakku'. The basic meaning is 'to undergo rubbing- - 'to rub'. It is commonplace in Tamil literature to find this pair of words being used in the context of someone wearing a garland. (Remember, even English 'to wear' has a sense of 'to rub'.) Two years back, I did some research on this word 'araGku'. At that time, I collected the usage data regarding this word. Unfortunately, I do not have access to that list now. But from the hard copy of a part of it, I can give you an occurrence of the effective form of the word in tEvAram 1.65.8.1 "tAr arakkum tiNmuTikaL UnRiya caGkaran Ur" It can be translated as "the town of caGkaran who pressed down the crowns which garlands rubbed". I am sure a text search of "tEvaram" and may be "nAlAyirat tivviyap pirapantam" may turn up examples. A search of "cIvaka cintAmaNi" or "kamparAmAyaNam" will also turn up examples of such usage. I am sure the origin of the word 'raGgana' is from the sense of "that which 'araGku's" (i.e, garland). Even though the Tamil word has a 'k', following the nasal 'G', it is pronounced just as a 'g'. The reason both the affective and effective forms are possible in this usage is due to the fundamental nature of rubbing. When two objects move with respect to each other with friction being present, both objects undergo the result of the action, i.e., both get worn away. I wonder if bhAgavatapurANa has such usage, since it was supposedly produced in Tamilnadu. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 16 06:25:24 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 02:25:24 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda, ta'ntra, nUl, and sUtra Message-ID: <161227029720.23782.4585552706625001349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-13 19:53:42 EDT, thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) writes: << For example, I would consider demonstrable *quotation* of a Dravidian source in Vedic compelling evidence indeed [no question!]. But beyond that, what other evidence would be considered *compelling* by others on this list? >> I do not know if we can find exactly the kind of evidence required by Thompson. But, N. Ganesan pointed out the following from Michael Witzel's posting on 2/9/96. Here it goes. "As I do not have an older pre-colonial or pre-Muslim (?!) description of Holi at my hands (anyone? we should check the early Nibandhas or the Kaavyas) I offer something I have been working on recently: a much older, c. 2500 years old description ---- by Brahmins for Brahmins but ``graphic`` enough --- of another year-end festival/ritual, the winter solstice rite of Mahaavrata (at the end of the year long Gavaam Ayana ritual). This description, taken from the Aapastamba Shrautasutra of the Black Yajurveda is ``smrti`` in the technical, traditional Hindu sense, but some shorter versions of this Sattra ritual are found in the Sruti as well: in the Samhitas and Brahmanas --- again composed by Brahmins for Brahmins and therefore definitely above all ``colonial`` (but certainly not anti-Shudra!) suspicion. Enjoy the musical chaos, the social upheavel and the (almost!) sexual liberty -- this is a sanctified srauta rite, after all... -- all of which we are used to in ``carnivals`` from ancient and present Europe to Brazil, from the Dayaks in Indonesia to medieval Japan... I have witnessed these things myself in the Rhineland (Germany), during Holi and similar festivals in Nepal < with the worst obscenities shouted in the streets, of course only during the festival>, and a colleague has told me the story of his Holi in Benares where he, after having had the common dosis of bhang the night before with his Hindu hosts, awoke up next morning on the roof terrace of his hosts, with no memory of last night and, equally, sans culottes, -- the women of teh household smiling at him; he summarized his experience: ``after that, I was accepted by all...`` A quick translation runs like this. Remember, all of this is part of a Soma ritual!) Aapastamba Zrauta Suutra 21.9.1 sqq. When the stotra belonging to the Mahendra drink < thus at noon> has been "driven" near, 'all voices sound'. 2. The offerers (participants of the Sattra, all Yajamaanas) raise a loud shouting din. 3. The wives play the ApaaghaaTalikas, Tamil lutes, and the Piccholaas." Now, I do not have access to the Sanskrit text. My guess is Tamil Lutes are probably referred to by something along the lines of "drAviDa vINA". (I also remember a citation of aiteraya AraNyaka or brAhmaNa as having the usage 'panca drAviDa'). That the wives play Tamil lutes is, to me, a very strong indication that the wives of these yajamAnas were of Dravidian origin, if not from the specific community of bards. In the Classical Tamil texts which are dated by Zvelebil to be at least 800-1000 years after these 'sUtra' texts, the 'yAz" or Tamil lute is mainly, if not exclusively, still played by the bardic community alone. If, as Parpola has indicated that the zrauta sUtra rituals indicate a pre-Vedic Vratyan basis, then the zrauta sUtra text above provides evidence for the presence of representatives of the bardic community among the elites of the Aryan community or at least the presence of musical training of the elite Aryans by the Dravidian bardic community. The word 'panuval' is used many times in the context of singing/lute-playing of the bards in Classical Tamil. See examples below. "vaLaikikai viRaliyen pinnaLAkap ponvArntanna puriyaTaGku narampin vari navil panuval pulam peyarntu icaippap paTumalai ninRa payaGkezu cIRiyAz" (puRanAnURu 135.4-7) A translation of this would be "with the woman of the bardic community following me and my efficacious small lute with braided strings seemingly made of gold and playing the song ("panuval") in the musical scale of paTumalai (carnatic rAga-'naTa bhairavi') which reverberates all over the land" "kaTumparipuravi neTuntEr anci nallicai niRutta nayavaru panuval tollicai niRIiya uraicAl pANmakan" (akanAnURu 352.12-14) It can be translated as, "the bard of fame, who set to ancient music the well-liked song ("panuval") establishing the good fame of anci who had the tall chariot with fast horses". Is this sufficient evidence? Regards S. Palaniappan From sarin at erols.com Wed Apr 16 11:14:07 1997 From: sarin at erols.com (sarin at erols.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 06:14:07 -0500 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029726.23782.17263661634951132140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I read once that while Sikh males always have typical Sikh names, that is >not always so with women, since "Hindu" (VERY big scare-quotes!!) girls' >names are perceived as more "feminine". Is anyone of you able to >confirm/refute this? It's interesting because many European languages also >seem to be more open to foreign female names than to foreign male names. > >BPJ > I've noticed that many Sikh names are almost entirely interchangeable between men and women, the only difference being the Singh or Kaur after the name. Interestingly, Inder is a pervasive suffix: Mahinder, Rajinder, Bhupinder, etc. A reference to the martial qualities of Indra, the god of storms, I suppose. If that is the case, then Punjab is the only place where this Vedic deity is so regularly refered to in everyday life today! Amita Sarin From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Wed Apr 16 06:43:27 1997 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 06:43:27 +0000 Subject: Virus warning Message-ID: <161227029722.23782.4011248378022352437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's impossible to get a virus via e-mail as long as you don't extract any attached and unknown files. Yours, Tobias At 21:55 15.04.1997 BST, Jan Brzezinski wrote: >>>X-Sender: ykoizumi at red.weeg.uiowa.edu >>>Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:13:56 -0500 >>>Reply-To: "Y. Koizumi" >>>Sender: General Anthropology Bulletin Board >>> >>>From: "Y. Koizumi" >>>Subject: Virus Beware (fwd) >>>To: ANTHRO-L at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>> >>>-------------------------------------- >>>Date: 4/7/97 14:52 >>>From: Mark Jones >>>This information was received this morning, please share it with >>>anyone that might access the Internet: >>> >>>If anyone receives e-mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete it >>>WITHOUT reading it. ON NO ACCOUNT BE TEMPTED TO OPEN AND READ THE >>>MESSAGE. >>> >>>This is a warning for all Internet users. There is a dangerous virus >>>propagating across the Internet through an e-mail message entitled >>>"PENPAL >>>GREETINGS!". DO NOT OPEN ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS!". >>>The >>>message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you are >>>interested >>>in a penpal, but by the time you open it to read it , it is too late. >>>The >>>"trojan horse" virus will have already infected the boot sector of your >>>hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It is a >>>self-propagating >>>virus, and once the message is read, it will AUTOMATICALLY forward >>>itself >>>to anyone whose e-mail address is present in YOUR mailbox. This >>>virus will >>>destroy your hard >>>drive, and holds the potential to destroy the hard drive of anyone >>>whose >>>mail is in your in box, and whose mail is in their in box and so on. >>>If >>>this virus keeps getting passed, it has the potential to do a great >>>deal >>>of damage to computer networks worldwide. >>> >>>Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as you >>>see >>> it. And pass this message along to all of your friends, relatives and >>>the >>>other readers of the >>>newsgroups and mailing lists which you are on. >>> >> >Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. >1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 >(819) 322-3382, 322-6146 > > > > From prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp Tue Apr 15 22:04:50 1997 From: prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp (prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 07:04:50 +0900 Subject: Punthi Pustak - address? Message-ID: <161227029706.23782.18327572416332837324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 2:38 PM 97.4.15 +0100, Jan Dvorak wrote: >Does anyone of you know the address of the Punthi Pustak publishing house >(INDIA)? M/S. Punthi-Pustak P.O. Box 16602, 136/4. B. Bidhan Sarani, Calcutta 700 004. Fax 91.033. 555 5573 Hisashi MATSUMURA prince at mx.kobe-shinwa.ac.jp From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Apr 16 02:57:44 1997 From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 07:57:44 +0500 Subject: Punthi Pustak - address? Message-ID: <161227029715.23782.11078607806029596848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The address is Punthi Pustak, 34 Mohan Bagan Lane, Calcutta- 700 00, India as per our records On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jan Dvorak wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone of you know the address of the Punthi Pustak publishing house > (INDIA)? > > Thank You. > > Jan Dvorak > > P.S. Thank to all who responded to my last queries about Vikram Seth. > > From jagat at polyinter.com Wed Apr 16 12:34:00 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 08:34:00 -0400 Subject: Apologies to all Message-ID: <161227029728.23782.18034064865066617583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies to all for wasting your time with a bogus virus alert. Thank you for wisening me up. Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Wed Apr 16 16:20:47 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 10:20:47 -0600 Subject: LANGUAGES OF INDIA Message-ID: <161227029733.23782.4212328422482624843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Languages of India ************************* Hindi and English operate in two completely different domains. South Indians resist Hindi because of the real fear of losing their linguistic heritages. On the other hand, English is the language par excellence for today's science and technology, especially anything to do with computers. In US universities, for engineering PhD qualifying examinations, another European language like German used to be a requirement. With major and varied scholarly writings coming out in English, that requirement is slowly going away nowadays. If this is happening to German and French, it is hard to push down the throat of any Indian, Hindi or any other language. About the three language formula, people used to explain as: a) use regional language in the state b) use Hindi for communicating with others c) use English elsewhere. C. N. Annadurai quipped, "We build only one doorway from our home to outside. Why a small door to go to a neighbour, and a large one to elsewhere?" When they told that Hindi is the majority language, so it becomes the official language of the Central Government, his reaction:"We choose the national bird for its beauty. Is it not? Crows far outnumber peacocks". In her desperate desire to establish family dynastic rule, Indira Gandhi concentrated many powers towards the center. It is unfortunate that education was added to the joint list between state and central governments during the Emergency. In the current political climate, politicians at the Central government are on the run and are not interested in imposing anything. But, the bureaucrats at the Center are different so far. Many are Tamil-speaking, but they have been advocating/implementing the use of Hindi for years. Hope they change looking at the ground realities. Look at old Russia. Baltics, Central Asia do not speak Russian anymore. Even Slavs like Poles, Czechs are eagerly learning English, rather than Russian, a Slavic language. Why? "Big Brother" approaches tend to backfire. With the current technology's pace, we don't have to get rid of any language or script. South Indian grantha script is beautiful for printing Sanskrit books. I hope it is not sent to gallows. Adhisaiva Sivacharyars, in Saivaite temples get the Saiva Agama editions of French Institute of Pondichery, photocopy it and transcribe it in Grantha script. Agamas are their tradition anyway! Dr. S. Kalyanaraman's earlier suggestion for Roman scripts for Indian languages is excellent. First, Central government has to start implementing it. By the way, e-mail in Tamil script (called Murasu Anjal, originating in Malaysia) has been downloaded 18000 times for PC and for Unix, 10000 times SUMMARY: One Script and One language is bad for India. India's 5000 year history always supports variety and diversity. Regards, N. Ganesan From Mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu Wed Apr 16 17:21:21 1997 From: Mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu (Mehta, Shailendra) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 12:21:21 -0500 Subject: More on Indian Languages Message-ID: <161227029736.23782.3855976241875930047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >Frances Pritchett wrote: > >"I just came back from a visit to North India and Pakistan. I found that >more than ever, my Urdu (and Hindi) literary friends have their kids in >English-medium schools." > >1. So true! I can add several examples here. Most of the prominent Hindi >literary personalities that I know of, have sent their children to English >medium schools, and indeed encouraged them to go on to prominent universities >in England and in the United States. This includes several of India's most >famous editors and writers. It is not entirely a drawback. In fact, their >home environments being what they are, these children have, almost without >exception, turned out to masters of Hindi and of English, and thereby >enhanced their ability to advance the cause of Hindi in a wider context. > > >2. Indeed there is a fairly robust tradition of many Hindi writers having >specialised in English literature before going on to write in Hindi. A case >in point, is, arguably the greatest Hindi writer alive, Harivanshrai Bacchan. >He did his Ph.D at Cambridge, (on Keats if memory serves correctly). (His >son the famoust thespain, too was all set towards a degree in English, except >that his indifferent academic performance put him out of the running for the >few places in India where English literature is taught well. He ended up >studying Chemistry.) Similar remarks apply to Dharamvir Bharati, to Amit >Khanna and to many others. > >3. My mother too, is a writer and has written several dozen books and several >hundred short stories for children in Hindi. However, she too was adamant >that all of her children go to English medium schools. For about the same >reasons that Chelsea Clinton goes to a private school and not to a public >school. > > >Srinivasan Pichumuni wrote: > >Since my father was all-India transferable, I studied in Central >Schools all my life... Hindi was our first language and we did >even Social Studies (Hist/Geo/Civics) entirely in Hindi... so, to >use the felicitous Americanism, I can kickass in Hindi and indeed >do so with mirth ! > >4. I think the ideal situation is what Srini describes above. A child growing >up in India needs both local and global awareness. One should endeavor to >teach literature and social studies and perhaps Mathematics in the native >language while perhaps teaching the Sciences in English. > >5. What is especially dangerous is the situation where the child grows up >largely unable to speak any Indian language well. If that happens, then we >literally have an individual who is an internal expatriate in that his mental >world is completely different from those around him. In fact he will then >have only the accident of his birth in common with the common man around him. >If he attains a position of power, which is quite likely on average, he will >have nothing in common with most of those over whom he rules. This situation >is profoundly undemocratic, and if allowed to persist would result in severe >strains on the political fabric. But things are improving in many respects. >Why do I say this? > >6. Right up until the early 1970s there was a whole class of individuals in >India which was entirely educated in English and had almost no contact with >Indian culture in any meaningful sense. They knew nothing about Indian >classical music or dance (disdaining the latter as fit for dancing girls, a >common North Indian prejudice at that time) or indeed about literature in any >Indian language. If they were in Hindi speaking areas they disdained Hindi >films and cared little about the excellent Hindi and Urdu poetry to found in >its songs. Further, they were largely unaware of Indian philosophy and Indian >mythology. Mutatis mutandis, for other areas in India. All this has changed, >and I would be hard pressed to find any young Indian in India who fits the >above description today. Of course, the sociological understanding of this >phenomenon will be quite complex, and nuanced, but I will identify four >factors: > >A. The growth of SPIC MACAY - the Society for the Promotion of Indian >Classical Music and Culture Among Youth. I was a college student in India in >the late 70s when we organised the first concert under the aegis of this body >in Delhi University. The response was electric. Suddenly, Indian Classical >Music and Dance became "high brow" and "cool" and spread like wildfire across >campuses all over India. It also changed the economics of the performing arts >in that artists could now subsist, indeed thrive without patronage of any >kind. > >B. An exceptional generation of light classical musicians from India and >Pakistan popularised the ghazal form in India. It took India by storm and >created a groundswell of interest in this and related genres, benefitting >both Urdu and Hindi poetry. > >C. The Amar Chitra Katha series, developed a taste for mythological and >historical stories among young children. As a result, children growing up in >the early 80s had an order of magnitude greater familiarity with the Indian >classics. This is now completely superceded by: > >D. The popular appeal of Ramayana, Mahabharata and other mythologicals on >Television. > >7. As a result the average Indian growing up in India, is likely to know more >about "highbrow" Indian culture than his or her parents did. This is >especially true in North India. It probably applies to a lesser degree in >Southern India. > >8. I think we should realise that the time has come to move on to the next >logical step, which is to promote the use of Indian languages in the same >way that Indian classical music and dance have been promoted - that is >through a collaboration of like-minded indviduals who communicate their >passion, and make plain that Indian culture as expressed in Indian languages >enriches Indian life. I hope, in a few years Frances Pritchett would not need >to add: > >"Let's hope for some kind of swing of the cultural >pendulum that will cause people to be more seriously committed to *real* >bilingualism and *genuine* literary maintenance of the modern South Asian >languages than many of them they now appear to be." > >It will require the extension to language, the sea change which has been >observed in Indian music, dance and symbolism. > >9. How can one bring this about? I do not have all the answers, but here is a >thought. As I have argued before, at the technical level Indian languages >largely use identical vocabulary based on Sanskrit. The one exception is Urdu >and another partial exception is Tamil (as several people pointed out in this >forum). We should use this commonality to promote all the Indian languages >simultaneously. Why? For this let me turn to perhaps the most useful >observation made about Indian langugages on this forum. Narayan Raja has >written: > >"My observation is that Indian languages (including Hindi) >are all being marginalized by English. Hindi -- if at >all it's a "threat" to other languages, which I doubt -- >is much less so than English. > >Young kids in Madras nowadays are chattering >away in English (not in Tamil, definitely not >in Hindi). I was unable to find any good-quality >Tamil books or tapes for my daughter, despite searching >for two days in Trichy, and one day in Madras. I was >told "There aren't any." (No, the Tamil books had not >been driven out by Hindi books. You can easily guess >which language books were easily available everywhere). > >Seriously, what do you think? Is it English or Hindi >that is displacing Tamil among many Tamil-speakers?" > >10. I think, in focusing on the internal threats (which are minor) we are >losing sight of the external threat (which is major). This is of course, a >situation not entirely unknown in Indian, especially Rajput, history. Or as >the Panchatantra story goes, in the fight between the the monkeys (the Indian >languages) it is the cat (English) which is winning. Let us realise that all >Indian languages will rise and fall together, because they constitute a >finely balanced ecosystem where to disturb one part is to disturb all. And >let us not forget that >each one of them is precious to us all. This is the reason why we must move >especially quickly to help the cause of the most marginalised of the Indian >languages as Robert Zyndenbos has so eloquently argued. And oh, I am not >thinking of languages which were recently mentioned here in one context or >another, namely Hindi, Tamil, Bengali, Kannada or Marathi etc... which are >doing quite well, thank you. Rather, I am thinking of proud languages such as >Oriya and Assamese and others like them which have never been mentioned in >this forum in recent times, and which have no discernable presence on the >Web, nor are likely to have one in the near future. > >11. (Of course, there are several ironies here including the most obvious one >- I am making this case for Indian languages, in English, but then I have >long adovocated the use of judo linguistics.) > >12. A start has been made, in that we have set up a small group of people in >India and in the United States who will actively promote the >inter-operability of the all the Indian scripts on a unified basis, by >interacting with the Unicode forum, the software developers and the bodies >which set Internet standards. Now that at least three newspapers each have >appeared on the Web in Hindi and Tamil and several others in Kannada, Marathi >and Begali, among others, the time has come to set standards and to make >available fonts, software, multimedia kits and original literature in all >Indian languages on a unified basis, so that we can all plumb the treasures >of all the Indian languages in the original, using the script of our choice, >whichever that may be. And I for one will be quite willing to help spread the >sweetness of "high culture" in all the Indian languages. If I may be allowed >to express a little bit of partiality, I would like to add that I would >particularly like to promote the spread of the South Indian languages in the >North, since treasures, such as those of the Tirukkural, are quite unknown >there. I for one, would like to see Prakrit Bharati's excellent Hindi and >English translations of this classic vade mecum, made available to everyone >on the Web. > > > Shailendra Raj Mehta >mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu > > > > From das at netcom.com Wed Apr 16 19:30:01 1997 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 12:30:01 -0700 Subject: Address of Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam Message-ID: <161227029741.23782.7961848378567370206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anybody know the contact information for "Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam"? Believe they have a branch in Chennai (Madras). Also, looking for a list of their publications. das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From dicko at netletter.com Wed Apr 16 17:10:37 1997 From: dicko at netletter.com (Dick Oliver) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 13:10:37 -0400 Subject: Himalaya Message-ID: <161227029734.23782.12092628362761844640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:01 PM 4/16/97 BST, you wrote: > And yet I can't help wondering why mountains, and Himalaya in > particular, is considered to be especially holy. Given the association of the sky with divinity--a nearly universal association across cultures--the holiness of high mountains seems rather natural. --Dick Oliver ---------- Cedar Science Center Wolcott, Vermont USA From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Apr 16 18:01:34 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 14:01:34 -0400 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029739.23782.10909408950582978766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am curious about the use of sandhi in `real' spoken Sanskrit: In print, it is customary to apply sandhi except at sentence junctures. Do people pronounce whole sentences in one breath? If not, do sandhi rules still apply when they pause to take a breath? What about long compounds with twenty or more syllables? My gut feeling, but one which I cannot check objectively, is that it was easier to resolve sandhi when I heard the text being read by someone familiar with it, than when reading printed texts. I wonder if others have had the feeling. What does this tell us about aural clues to word breaks? We all have read about the `errors of sandhi' in manuscripts. What is the type of error they are talking about? Are the sandhi results distorted by Prakritic phonology? If is it a case of not applying sandhi? Has anyone looked for patterns in these `errors'? All this talk about rigorous application of sandhi rules reminds me of two essays on this topic. The first is in the series editor's introduction to one of the HSS volumes published in the 1920's. [It might be the tantraakhyaana.] The other is V. L. Joshi's ``Paa.nini and Paa.niniiyas on sa.mhitaa'' in the proceedings of the Delhi Congress of 1964. I would be curious to know how members of this list react(ed) to these two articles. In particular, does `real' spoken Sanskrit have pauses of varying lengths? Or is it punctuated like `real' printed Sanskrit: only da.n.das, with commas etc. for the weak-minded only? To give a specific example, if I want to speak the following in `real' Sanskrit, am I supposed to run through the whole thing in one breath, or can I pause? If I can pause, where should I pause? Only where there is a space in the usual Devanagari printing, or should I be guided by synctactic breaks? What if syntactic breaks are obscured by sandhi, as in `satiidam' in this example? tarhi mamaanena ka.n.tharaktena t.rptaa satiida.mta.taaka.mjalai.h paripuur.na.mkuru To return to a point I raised earlier: Oral communication often contains information that is hard to communicate in writing. Western practice has been to try and convey this by other means. In particular, indicating word divisions and use of punctuation were introduced and developed for this purpose. In India, teaching has been soley oral, with books serving as only aids to memory. But in the modern world, written communication continues to be important. Just listen to all the lamentations about the (presumed) deterioration in the ability to punctuate, to write clearly etc. If Sanskrit is to serve a medium of modern communication, how can we insist that Sanskrit must continue to do without such aids? Isn't it the case that in Pali and Prakrits, sandhi is applied only to standing phrases or very closely connected words? Isn't the same the case in living languages? Sanskrit learners face a chicken-and-egg situation: they need am extensive vocabulary to resolve sandhi; but to get such a vocabulary, the best way would be to read lot, to do which they need to know how to resolve sandhi. Why not break this cycle by ignoring sandhi in printing (as in done in >all< languages except Sanskrit) and leaving sandhi in spoken language to be applied within short phrases, with the boundaries determined by the speaker? If that makes Sanskrit sound more natural and easier to follow, why is it so bad? To return to my original question, who owns Sanskrit? That is, who decides what is `real' Sanskrit? Why is it `real' Sanskrit even when intonation patterns that peek out from A.s.taadhyaayi are not followed [for example, ``ki.m kriyaapra"sne ...'' suggests that it was ``kim, ga'cchasiii'' for ``Are you going'' (literally ``What, you are going?'') opposed to ``ki"n gacchasiii'' for ``Whither are you going?''], but it is no longer Sanskrit when sandhi is not applied blindly paying no attention to natural pauses? Why is it `real' Sanskrit when we write ``ki.m gacchasi'' even though the pronunciation is mostly ``ki"n gacchasi''? -Nath From Christina.Gillberg at eu.pnu.com Wed Apr 16 13:17:17 1997 From: Christina.Gillberg at eu.pnu.com (Christina.Gillberg at eu.pnu.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 15:17:17 +0200 Subject: Himalaya Message-ID: <161227029730.23782.16813593130776007489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Some years ago I went trekking in the Himalayas and got fascinated with its majesty and beauty. But it also produced some questions that I have been trying to answer, without much luck, and now I wonder if anyone of you can help me. I know that Himalaya is considered to be Mt Meru, and one of the best places for yogis to live at as well as for laymen to go on pilgramage to. And yet I can't help wondering why mountains, and Himalaya in particular, is considered to be especially holy. Does anyone know what does the scriptures have to say about this? Are there any passages in the Puranas, Agamas or Tantras that deal with Himalaya? And which places are considered to be the most holy? (It probably changes if you are for instance a shaiva, a vaishnava or a smarta-hindu but I suppose there are some places of extra importance.) All proposals are gratefully received, both sources and modern scholarly books. Best regards, Christina Gillberg christina.gillberg at eu.pnu.com From bpj at netg.se Wed Apr 16 14:18:51 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 16:18:51 +0200 Subject: Melleny Message-ID: <161227029731.23782.6902336379901621175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:20 16.4.1997 +0100, Sarin wrote: >>I read once that while Sikh males always have typical Sikh names, that is >>not always so with women, since "Hindu" (VERY big scare-quotes!!) girls' >>names are perceived as more "feminine". Is anyone of you able to >>confirm/refute this? It's interesting because many European languages also >>seem to be more open to foreign female names than to foreign male names. >> >>BPJ >> > I've noticed that many Sikh names are almost entirely interchangeable >between men and women, the only difference being the Singh or Kaur after That's correct, and the probable reason for the (re)introduction of more markedly feminine names. >the name. Interestingly, Inder is a pervasive suffix: Mahinder, Rajinder, >Bhupinder, etc. A reference to the martial qualities of Indra, the god of >storms, I suppose. If that is the case, then Punjab is the only place >where this Vedic deity is so regularly refered to in everyday life today! The word "indra" was also used as a common noun 'hero, warrior', even among Buddhists who knew the god under the name $akra. I for my part knew a Javanese named Ali Birendra! BP ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Wed Apr 16 19:59:06 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 18:59:06 -0100 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029745.23782.5036451502606231791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 16 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao voe> Subject: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' > It is possible (or likely?) that a parallel, though certainly not > cognate, > construction in the Dravidian languages has contributed to the popularity > of -tavant, namely the combination of a relative participle with a > pronominal ending. E.g.: Kannada maa.dida-, or Tamil ceyta-, [...] voe> I don't know Kannada. But in colloquial Tamil, the past voe> tense is not voe> expressed using participle like forms. The typical voe> formation would be voe> ``vii.t.tukku ppo_n~e'' and not ``vii.t.tukku po_nav~a voe> n~aa'' [...] voe> Participles are used in place voe> of relative claueses and to put emphasis on the subject, voe> but not, AFAIK, voe> as the typical means of expressing the past tense. Of course, "vii.tukku poo_nava_n naa_n" would be more literally translated something like: "The one who went home am I." And this is hardly a typical everyday past tense construction -- just as, we may add, the Sanskrit past in -tavant is unusual. But passive constructions in the Dravidian languages are cumbersome and little used, which is a reason why South Indians (and not only they: me too!) have difficulties in using the Urdu-Hindi past tense of transitive verbs, which is historically a passive. So it is understandable that they would gladly avoid common Sanskrit constructions like "mayaa pustakam pa.thitam", with the agent in the instrumental case, in favour of "aham pustakam pa.thitavaan", where the agent is in the nominative case and the object in the accusative, as in Dravidian. And Kannada "naanu pustakavannu oodidavanu" and Tamil "naa_n puttakattai pa.tittava_n" ("I am [the] one who read a book") superficially mean the same as the Sanskrit sentence, have the same word order, and also the endings resemble each other phonetically, which is helpful in memorizing the construction. Furthermore, avoiding a conjugated active past-tense verb form by using a verbal agentive noun reduces the amount of grammar which the learner needs to learn and thus further simplifies this neo-Sanskrit. - Robert Zydenbos From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Wed Apr 16 17:49:39 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 19:49:39 +0200 Subject: -indra Message-ID: <161227029738.23782.6300498916493471548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Interestingly, Inder is a pervasive suffix: Mahinder, Rajinder, >>Bhupinder, etc. A reference to the martial qualities of Indra, the god of >>storms, I suppose. If that is the case, then Punjab is the only place >>where this Vedic deity is so regularly refered to in everyday life today! > >The word "indra" was also used as a common noun 'hero, warrior', even among >Buddhists who knew the god under the name $akra. I for my part knew a >Javanese named Ali Birendra! You've also got "shilendra" which is an epithet of Shiva (from which the name of the Javanese slendro I'm told is derived), although I don't know what it means. Same etymology I suppose? Otherwise, since you know where to find all those fonts, do you know by any chance where I could find a font of the shavian alphabet? (Does it even have an encoding scheme?) No that's not a trivia question :), I really like how it looks, looks a bit like malayalam to me, except for that it's not incredibly useful. It suddenly got reminded I don't know why, and I thought you were the right person to answer this question. (If you can't don't lose any sleep over it :) Cheers Jacob ps: Don't forget to add info for translitteration of shavian to your page :) From deepak at ksu.edu Thu Apr 17 02:42:26 1997 From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 21:42:26 -0500 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029747.23782.7558529026343380857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi everybody, I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant relation to mandalas as archiectural devices Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. Thanking in advance, sincerely d e e p a k g u p t a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak From bpj at netg.se Wed Apr 16 22:13:28 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 00:13:28 +0200 Subject: -indra Message-ID: <161227029742.23782.6032918891289382681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Otherwise, since you know where to find all those fonts, do you know by >any chance where I could find a font of the shavian alphabet? (Does it There is a Shavian font somewhere at this site: http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/info.html It is a long time since I actually was there, and I haven't used the font myself. If it doesn't fit your platform, tell me and I'll convert it -- assuming that you use something else than unix. >even have an encoding scheme?) No that's not a trivia question :), Actually there is a proposal in the ConScript Unicode Registry, IIRC (whose url I can dig up on request...) I don't think this font complies to it, though; rather it is one of those like-sound-to-like-letter mappings made by people who have either not heard of Unicode, or think it's a waste of time to comply to it until it's properly implementable everywhere. ( I vacillate between this attitude, lip service to the idea of Unicode, and thinking that a lot of the Unicode stuff is the darn silly produce of engineering nerds without feeling for the linguistic side of scripts, not to mention the distinction between nice-looking, identity-building, market-friendly printer output and just plain getting a message across... >I really like how it looks, looks a bit like malayalam to me, >except for that it's not incredibly useful. I like it too. That it "looks" like an eastern script rather than a western one is probably one (relatively minor!) factor why it didn't catch on, even among those who might have found it a good compromise between shorthand and longhand for note-taking. I know one person over the Net, who actually has used it that way, and who is actually concerned about the problem of English spelling. He thinks that for a new script for English to catch on it must BOTH be autonomous of the Latin alphabet AND look like a western alphabet. Also there must be a major global upheaval, imo, but that's another story... In a way Shavian reminds me an uncanny lot about the various "missionary scripts". One problem with Shavian is that it's poorly portable to other languages. I tried to remap the vowels onto Swedish some ten years ago when I first discovered Shavian, but the result lacked the sense of logic of the original. Comment on ecrit en Francais en Shavienne? Have you tried it? >It suddenly got reminded I don't know why, and I thought you were the >right person to answer this question. (If you can't don't lose any >sleep over it :) I don't sleep a lot anyways, since I got an aching back... >ps: Don't forget to add info for translitteration of shavian to your > page :) Dhaet wood bee Nue Speling, Ie taek it! | _ \ \ _ / / _ _ / | (_ | | \ \/ \_ \ \ \ \_ / / ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From bpj at netg.se Wed Apr 16 22:18:29 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 00:18:29 +0200 Subject: Sorry (was: Re: -indra) Message-ID: <161227029744.23782.14762306114729656936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My private respons to Jacob Baltuch's font question went to the list by mistake. Sorry about that... Philip ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From jaybee at tm.net.my Thu Apr 17 09:39:08 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 02:39:08 -0700 Subject: Address of Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam Message-ID: <161227029750.23782.11428488829682758798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das Devaraj wrote: > > Anybody know the contact information for "Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam"? > Believe they have a branch in Chennai (Madras). Also, looking for > a list of their publications. > > das > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek > Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 > e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 > Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA The address for Saiva Siddhantha Kalzhagam:- The South India Saiva Siddhantha Works, Publishing Society Tinnevelly Ltd., 154,T.T.K. Road, MADRAS-18 The Managing Director: Mr. Muthu Kumara Samy Mr. Das Devaraj, If you do write to Mr. Muthu Kumara Samy, please feel free to refer my name. I, very much doubt, whether they have ablist of all their publications. They have published more than 1500 books to date. And they have a long history. There is a rare book called "kanakkadhikAram" which was published by them in the twenties. On being enquired, they did not even know the very existence of the book. Pssst.....(I have a copy). JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani, Kedah. Malaysia. From jaybee at tm.net.my Thu Apr 17 10:15:46 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 03:15:46 -0700 Subject: Address of Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam Message-ID: <161227029753.23782.6335015273632795371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das Devaraj wrote: > > Anybody know the contact information for "Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam"? > Believe they have a branch in Chennai (Madras). Also, looking for > a list of their publications. > > das > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek > Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 > e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 > Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA Address for Saiva Siddhanta Kalzhagam:- The Saiva Siddhantha Works, Publishing Society Tinnevelly Ltd, 154, T. T. K. Road, MADRAS -18. The Managing Director, Mr.MUTHU KUMARA SAMY Mr.Das Devaraj, Please feel free to refer my name in case you write to Mr Muthu Kumara Samy. The Kallzagam ,to date has published more than 1500 books. It also has a long history. I doubt very much whether they have a list of all their publications. There is a very rare book called" kanakkadhikAram".It was published in the twenties. But , when enquired about the book , the Kalzhagam did not know about the very existance of the book. Pssst.... (I have a copy.)< smug grin> JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani, kEDAH mALAYSIA From wgw at dnai.com Thu Apr 17 06:46:02 1997 From: wgw at dnai.com (WILLIAM G WALL) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 06:46:02 +0000 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029764.23782.16417614816527563564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:51 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: > >Hi everybody, > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices > >Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz >and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city > >Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references >about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. > >Thanking in advance, > >sincerely > > >d e e p a k g u p t a >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak > You might take a look at Natalia Lidova's "Drama and Ritual of Early Hinduism" (Delhi: Motilal, 1994). Very interesting argument that drama is related to puja and that rectangular temples are designed specifically with drama in mind. Bes, Bill William G Wall, Ph.D. Institute for Vaisnava Studies Graduate Theological Union PO Box 11216 Berkeley CA 94712 (510) 849-8280 (office) email: wgw at dnai.com Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se From jai at mantra.com Thu Apr 17 18:33:44 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 08:33:44 -1000 Subject: First Private University in China Message-ID: <161227029776.23782.1797698713343355501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list: I have learned from a client who is involved in arranging funding for it that China's first private university is in the planning stages. Details about the type of schools, curricula, etc., are not yet available. Please let me know if any of you would like to be kept informed as more information is released. If this is indeed going to be the first private university in China, then the history-making event is matched by the fact that it will be partly funded by by external sources. Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com Honolulu, Hawaii Om Shanti From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Thu Apr 17 06:35:42 1997 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 08:35:42 +0200 Subject: Address of Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam Message-ID: <161227029748.23782.12523220084939770195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It used to be Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam 79, Pragasam Salai (Broadway) Chennai 600 001 It may have changed -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris) At 20:41 16/04/1997 BST, you wrote: > >Anybody know the contact information for "Saiva Siddhanta Kalagam"? >Believe they have a branch in Chennai (Madras). Also, looking for >a list of their publications. > >das From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Thu Apr 17 13:23:14 1997 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 09:23:14 -0400 Subject: nAma Message-ID: <161227029759.23782.6516432858591797373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Journal of Vaisnava Studies (vol. 2/ no. 2, spring 1994) is a special issue with a focus on "The Power of the Holy Name." Bill Jackson (wjackson at indyunix.iupui.edu), Professor of Religion at Indiana Univ. at Indianapolis (who has an article in this volume) has worked also on the saints of the Kaveri Delta. He was very interested in Namasiddhanta issues about 10 years ago and I think he wrote a couple of articles then. On the issue of local deities having 108 names-- I'm not sure what kind of "local" you had in mind; some local goddesses (Chellattamman, Nagattamman et al) do not as far as I know have 108 names, but local Visnus (Kanchi Varadaraja, for instance) and local Lakshmis do. Occasionally, when the local Amman gets prominent (and gets Brahmanized and Sanskritized in the process), she acquires these names. Best wishes, Vasudha From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu Apr 17 08:15:19 1997 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 10:15:19 +0200 Subject: Indian Diaspora Message-ID: <161227029751.23782.1007585861931317796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am writing to inform you of a conference being organised by the Indological Society of Southern Africa on the theme Indian Diaspora on the 18 and 19 September 97 at the University of Witwatersrand, South Africa. Proposals for papers on Religion, Culture, History, Art and other related topics are invited. Please contact me for more information at : P Kumar Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Fax: 031-204-4160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za or Garth Mason Department of Religious Studies University of Witwatersrand Johannesburg PO WITS 2050 South Africa Email: 044gym at muse.arts.wits.ac.za Thanks, Pratap From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Thu Apr 17 16:18:39 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 10:18:39 -0600 Subject: Saiva Siddhanta Kazhagam Message-ID: <161227029767.23782.7162035435101538628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Saiva Siddhanta Kazhagam ************************ The book that Tiru. Jayabarathi refers to: kArinAyan_Ar. # kaNakkatikAram. innUl koRukkaiayUr kArinAyan_Ar ceytatu. ikatu tiruvoRRiyur paramAn_anta- cuvamikaLAl paricOtikkappaTTu.. # caitApETTai ce. # ilakSumivilAca-accukkUTam # 1862 # 74 # ? [treatise on arithmatic with a commentary] [brittle copy] {mathematics(k7)} kaNakkatikAram. kArinAyan_Ar aruLicceytatu. tirunelvEli: caivacittAnta (1958). 24, 104 pp. 8 (kazaka veLiyITu. 931) This is a medieval text on mathematics. I got this information from Institute of Indology and Tamil studies gopher at University of Koeln, Germany. They have built a fantastic library of Tamil books of about 40,000 books. gopher://linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de Thomas Malten and Ulrike Niklas informed me that soon the book catalog will be on the Web. Also, about 70000 Tamil book titles are available on-line from University of Chicago web page. This collection exists due to the untiring labour of one man, Sri. Roja Muttaiyah of Chettinad. These books are available at Roja Muttaiyah Research Library at Madras. If you are interested, please visit the library while at Madras. Contact Jim Nye at university of Chicago. Initially, scholars thought Tamil books printed before 1947 must be around 15,000 or so. Information that was widely available came from British Library catalogs of Tamil printed books (G. U. Pope and L. D. Barnett (1909), L. D. Barnett (1931), A. Gaur (1981)). These three catalogs talk of only about 10,000 books. Now we know for sure, that books printed in Tamil before India's independence must be in the range of 100,000. May be even 120,000! With this wealth of printed works in 19th century, many more PhDs/books can be done pertaining to Tamil, South India etc., Tamil manuscripts: ****************** Tamil has 40000 stone/copper plate inscriptions from second century B.C onwards. Karandai Tamil sangam copper plates of Rajandra Chola (1050 A.D.) are the largest written inscription anywhere in the world from premodern times. (This Drs. R. Nagaswamy and C. Sivaramamurti told me once) Tamil, other than Sanskrit, possesses a large number of manuscripts. Many of the Tamil manuscripts remain unpublished. Out of a total of 25000, there are about 2500 Tamil manuscripts scattered in many libraries all over Europe. This century's great Tamil scholars like U. V. Swaminathaiyar, never travelled to Europe & they knew little or no English. Some Tamil sangam work or atleast few important prabandham/talapurANam will be existing somewhere, hitherto unpublished or thought to have been lost. Hope some Indian/Western/Eastern scholars in the future will come forward to study Tamil and help to preserve/publish the Tamil manuscripts. Dravidian studies are roads less travelled, even today. The following books give nice writings on how to read from palmleaves. It is very different than reading print! 1) K. C. Chellamuthu, International catalogue of Tamil palmleaf manuscripts, 5 vol. 1995, Tamil university, Thanjavur. 2) A descriptive catalogue of Tamil palm-leaf manuscripts, The first 3 volumes in 6 parts has come out, Madras. 3) G. John Samuel, Palmleaf manuscripts in tamil and their preservation, p. 85-100, Journal of the Institute of Asian studies, XIII, 1, Sep. 1995. 4) pU. cuppiramaNiyam, cuvaTi iyal, IITS, 1991, 328 p. 5) irA. iLangkumaran, cuvaTikkalai, Salem, 1991, 380 p. 6) ti. vE. kOpAlaiyar, tamizh ezhuttum ETum, Thanjavur, 1990, 68 p. Caring of Palm-leaf Manuscripts - Tamil literature ************************************************** Two old poems from Tamil literature come to my mind. U. V. Saminathaiyar who edited the Sangam classics for the first time in print brought out a messenger poem on Madurai Siva. (UVS, maturaic cokkan^Atar tamizviTu tUtu, 1930, Madras, I edition. 7 reprints were made after). The heroine sends "Tamil" as her messenger to her Lord. There are few couplets describing Tamil as a girl. One of them is, manjaL kuLippATTi maiyiTTu muppAlum minjap pukaTTa mikavaLarn^tAy! 1) As for a girl, the meaning is: When you were a baby, you enjoyed taking showers with turmeric (manjaL) smeared all over. decorated using cosmetics (mai/anjana) and consumed milk/juices that are essential for healthy growth. 2) As for the sweet Tamil, the meaning is: All your treasures/literatures in palmleaves are protected with turmeric, the letters on palmleaves are coated with soot (mai/anjana) to make the writing more visible, and in the early stages of life, Valluvar's KuRaL nourished you! (muppAl is another name for the famous TirukkuRaL because it is divided into three sections.) The second example comes from ParanjOti Munivar's tiruviLaiyATal purANam (16th century?). The local stala purANam for Madurai. (Dr. William Harman translated parts of this work.) Here the imagery is grand and beautiful. cEya tArakai varuNamAt tITTiya vAnam Aya ETTinai iruLenum anjanam taTavi tUya vALn^ilA enumveN tUcinAl tuTaippAN pAya vElaiyil muLaittanan panimatik kaTavuL. Siva appears in the sea. The crescent moon on his head sends out lunar rays to remove the darkness of the night sky and the stars shine. It is like The poet using a soft, white cloth to remove the carbon (anjanam) from the face of palmleaf manuscript and the letters look bright! Here, the comparison is: sky ------> palmleaf stars -----> written letters darkness of the night ---> carbon smear moon's rays ----> soft cloth Have a good day. Yours, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Thu Apr 17 09:37:38 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 10:37:38 +0100 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029755.23782.2818859840472543428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been following the dialogue with interest, and would like to comment on Vidyanath Rao's question about what is 'real' Sanskrit. The quotation marks on 'real' are apt, because reality in this context is relative. That's not to say it doesn't exist or can't be defined, but it has to be defined differently for different situations. For myself and many of the people I have taught Sanskrit to, 'real' Sanskrit is what we find in the published texts that we read. (These texts are mostly Vedic and Vedantic texts with their commentaries, BhG with its commentaries, MBh.) While presenting students with specially written beginners' Sanskrit, I have to warn them that when they come to 'real' Sanskrit they will find a much wider vocabulary, greater variety of inflections, etc. If I were preparing them to converse in Sanskrit as spoken by pandits, I would probably give them a different warning: that .r is not distinguished from ri, that a vowel is repeated after visarga, and that sandhi may be freer. If I were preparing them to converse in modern spoken Sanskrit (as described by some participants in this exchange, or in Hajime Nakamura's *A companion to contemporary Sanskrit*, Motilal Banarsidass 1973), I would warn them to expect a _narrower_ range of inflections, plural for dual, etc. But the 'reality' I am preparing them for is the printed text. That 'reality' is to some extent artificial, in that it has been created by the people who took part in the growth of printed texts. For a start, the kind of Sanskrit we read is in Devanagari, though I occasionally read sources printed in Bengali or other script (and of course quite often in Roman). Verses, which are run-on in manuscripts, are set out in lines. And--to take up one of Vidyanath's points--sandhi is regularised, 'correcting' the 'errors of sandhi' which occur in manuscripts. (Here we come to the relative nature of 'reality': if the 'errors of sandhi' reflect the way a shishta scribe spoke the text, then from the point of view of someone wanting to speak Sanskrit as pandits spoke it, these 'errors' are 'real Sanskrit'.) Commas, quotation marks, question marks, exclamation marks and dashes may be used. And sandhi breaks are not only at sentence breaks, but sometimes between clauses in a complex sentence, as a form of invisible punctuation. This is not the only 'real' Sanskrit, but it is the first one that many of us in the West encounter or want to encounter. It puts us in touch with a vast, varied and fascinating range of literature. Vidhyanath wrote: To return to my original question, who owns Sanskrit? That is, who decides what is `real' Sanskrit? I'd say nobody owns it, and everyone decides what, for themselves, is 'real' Sanskrit. But as with any language, a merely private reality is a contradiction of the communal and communicative nature of language itself. Also, while the existence of varieties for different regions, registers, social situations (including teaching and learning situations) and so on is essential to language, one needs to be aware of which is which, and which belongs where. Therefore: one shouldn't talk like a printed book (with long sentences and no intonation) and expect to be understood; nor should one use or teach a variety designed for beginners and try to pass it off as the language of a learned tradition. With best wishes to you all, Dermot Killingley Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Apr 17 15:32:14 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 11:32:14 -0400 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029766.23782.13884437329888835303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in > >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant > >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices > > I suggest you look at some of the studies of Newar urban space and ritual. > The Newars make much of various spatial orientations of their valley, and > quite explicitly articulate their rituals within that geometry. A good > place to start is > Gutschow, N., and Kilver, B. 1975 _Ordered Space, Concepts and Functions in > a Town in Nepal. > Even more fun, but in German: > Gutschow, N. 1982 _Stadtraum und Ritual der Newarischen Stadte im Kathmandu-tal > > Hope this helps. > > -wbd. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > William Douglas Also see, Robert Levy's "The power of space in a traditional Hindu city" in _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ 1, 1 (April 1997) and _Mesocosm: Hinduism and the Organization of a Traditional Newar City in Nepal_ (1990) Sushil Mittal International Institute of India Studies World Heritage Press From wilke at theol.unibe.ch Thu Apr 17 10:06:00 1997 From: wilke at theol.unibe.ch (Annette Wilke) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 12:06:00 +0200 Subject: nAma Message-ID: <161227029756.23782.16099543323779194933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:25:01 +0200 >To: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >From: Annette Wilke >Subject: nAma > >Dear Indologists, > >I am presently working on Divine Names in Hinduism and I am interested in some informations concerning the topic: > >1) Do also folk deities have (sahasra)nAmAvalis or even nAmastotras? (I know only a vast number of examples of litanies to the deities of the pancAyatana-group) > >2) Modern gurus often do have litanies with 108 or 1000 names (such as Chinmaya, Ramana Maharshi, Amma). Is it a modern practice or do you know litanies to historical saints? > >3) Which editions and translations are available of nAmasiddhAnta-sources, especially those of the saints of the Kaveri-delta/Tanjavur (SadAshiva Brahmendra, Bodhendra, SadgurusamI). Is LaxmIdhara's BhagavannAmakaumudI edited or even translated? > >4) Is there a traditional codex of the japa-formulas of Vishnu, RAma, Krishna and synonyms (To my knowledge there seems to be no restriction, but rather dependence on certain sampradAyas, initiated by gurus) > >5) Is it still a common practice to give a secret name to a child? (In interviews I got the impression that the practice is rather outdated) > >Thanks indeed for all informations and suggestions. >Yours, Annette Wilke > ================================================================================ Dr. Annette Wilke University of Berne Institute for the Science of Religions Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: 031 / 631 35 81 Fax.: 031 / 631 35 51 From wharman at DEPAUW.EDU Thu Apr 17 17:35:04 1997 From: wharman at DEPAUW.EDU (WILLIAM HARMAN) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 12:35:04 -0500 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029770.23782.230457898745343349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, WILLIAM G WALL wrote: > At 03:51 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: > > > >Hi everybody, > > > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in > >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant > >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices > > > >Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz > >and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city > > > >Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references > >about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. > > > >Thanking in advance, > > > >sincerely > > > > > >d e e p a k g u p t a > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dennis Hudson at Smith College has done some remarkable work on ritual and architecture in southern India. I don't know if he reads this list, but he is a real goldmine of information (and insights). Bill Harman DePauw University Ref: dhudson at julia.smith.edu From lfdelcanto at redestb.es Thu Apr 17 10:40:15 1997 From: lfdelcanto at redestb.es (Leon Fernando Del Canto) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 12:40:15 +0200 Subject: Ritual and architecture Message-ID: <161227029758.23782.10690707141871140193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did you try this address>>>> http://www.mum.edu/search_library/search_mum_library.html <<<<< At 04:54 PM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: >At 03:51 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: >> >>Hi everybody, >> >>I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in >>traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant >>relation to mandalas as archiectural devices >> >>Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz >>and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city >> Might you mean: Title: City of victory, Vijayanagara : the medieval Hindu capital of southern India / photographs by John Gollings ; essay and site descriptions by John M. Fritz and George Michell. Published: New York, N.Y. : Aperture : Distributed in the United States by Farrar, Straus and Giroux, c1991. Description: 118 p. : ill. ; 31 cm. Michell also has a later work that may be of some interest: Title: Architecture and art of southern India : Vijayanagara and the successor states / George Michell. Published: Cambridge ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 1995. Description: xxii, 302 p. : ill., maps ; 26 cm. Series: The new Cambridge history of India ; I, 6 Peter Granda University of Michigan >>Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references >>about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. >> >>Thanking in advance, >> >>sincerely >> >> >>d e e p a k g u p t a >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak >> > You might take a look at Natalia Lidova's "Drama and Ritual of Early >Hinduism" (Delhi: Motilal, 1994). Very interesting argument that drama is >related to puja and that rectangular temples are designed specifically with >drama in mind. > >Bes, > >Bill > > >William G Wall, Ph.D. >Institute for Vaisnava Studies >Graduate Theological Union >PO Box 11216 >Berkeley CA 94712 >(510) 849-8280 (office) > >email: wgw at dnai.com >Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se > > > > > > From rveluri at smtpgate.anl.gov Thu Apr 17 20:10:22 1997 From: rveluri at smtpgate.anl.gov (Rao Veluri) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 14:10:22 -0600 Subject: "AOL4FREE" NOT A HOAX Message-ID: <161227029778.23782.14181425715265907072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: This alert is circulated officially at Argonne National laboratory. Thought it might be useful to circulate elsewhere too! V R Veluri ________________________________________________________________________ AOL4FREE.COM IS NOT A HOAX A Trojan horse program called AOL4FREE.COM is circulating on the Internet. This is not a virus and cannot be detected by most anti-virus programs. The program is executed by the individual user and deletes all files on a hard drive. PLATFORM: DOS/Windows-based PCs DAMAGE: When the AOL4FREE.COM program is executed, all files and directories on the user's C: drive are deleted. DO NOT execute this program. [Note: Double clicking on.com or .exe will start a selected program.] If the program starts executing, quickly pressing Ctrl-C will save some of your files. If this has happened, shut down immediately and call for assistance. DO NOT attempt to write anything to your hard drive. Files that have been destroyed may be able to be recovered IF you have not written anything to the hard drive and IF your system has not written anything such as when utilizing a auto-save program. Please see CIAC Bulletin H-47 available on the CIAC homepage (http://ciac.llnl.gov/) for detailed information. _______________________________________________________________________ Received: from dns2.anl.gov by smtpgate.anl.gov (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) ; Thu, 17 Apr 97 12:03:20 CST Return-Path: Received: from achilles.ctd.anl.gov (achilles.ctd.anl.gov [146.137.72.1]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA21422; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:38 -0500 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [130.202.20.3]) by achilles.ctd.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA17589; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:31 -0500 Received: from achilles.ctd.anl.gov (achilles.ctd.anl.gov [146.137.72.1]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA20800; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:22 -0500 Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [130.202.20.3]) by achilles.ctd.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA17568 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:16 -0500 Received: from qmgate.anl.gov (qmgate.anl.gov [146.137.160.48]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA20797 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:14 -0500 Message-ID: Date: 17 Apr 1997 11:44:39 -0500 From: "David Jacque" Subject: "AOL4FREE" NOT A HOAX To: "All employees" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 4.0.0 From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Apr 17 18:11:38 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 14:11:38 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029773.23782.2466907557157684135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> But passive constructions in the Dravidian languages are >> cumbersome Robert, I am reminded of this striking paragraph in P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's "History of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D." (Madras, C. Coomarasawmy Naidu, 1929)... _________________ As he imported the seven cases of Sanskrit into Tamil, Agattiyanar is also responsible for importing the passive voice from Sanskrit. The passive is a definite inflection which all verbs, transitive or intransitive, undergo in Sanskrit. When transitive verbs become passive, it serves the purpose of making the object of the action the subject of the sentence, as when in English we say, "the lion was killed". This way of speaking is useful, when the subject of the action is not known or is not intended to be mentioned or when the object has to be emphasized. When intransitive verbs were given the passive inflection no such rational use can be found for it, but yet in Sanskrit the use of the passive intransitive is more idiomatic than that of the active, though no special meaning can be attached to the passive use; thus, "saH bhavati" is the same as "tena bhUyate", only the latter cannot be translated into any other language, for "he is been" is absurd even in English, though it is allied to Sanskrit. Agattiyanar imposed the passive construction on Tamil; even he could not transfer the passive intransitive into Tamil, though he could translate "tADyate" into "aDikkapaTTAn", agglutinating the verb paDu, to the past participle of aDi. aDikkapaDu, if analysed into aDikka [while (another man) beats], and paDu [let (you) suffer] is seen to be opposed to the genius of Tamil, for compounding two verbs into one and assuming different persons to be the subjects of the two elements of the compound verb is violating both logic and grammar which is based on logic at least as far as Tamil is concerned. The true Tamil idiom for "undergoing beating" is aDipaDu or aDiyu_n, where the first part of the compound is an abstract noun. AgattiyanAr invented this passive, because it is necessary for translating the Sanskrit passive verbs into Tamil and it proved so useful for men who think in Sanskrit and write in Tamil that AgattiyanAr's disciple, TolkAppiyanAr, begins his grammar with a pseudo-passive "ezhuttenapaDupa". This pseudo-passive which no Tamil man ever uses in natural Tamil speech, but which was invented to enable Sanskritists to translate easily from Sanskrit into Tamil, has, in our days, become very fashionable in written Tamil, because we have learnt to think in English (which revels in passive forms) and write in Tamil. This barbarous form in "paDu" mars every page of the Tamil translation of the Bible, and unfortunately the Tamil composition of Pandits." ____________________________ PTSI's book is quite dated now, but still makes for _very_ interesting reading. For his times, he seems to have steered well clear of "patriotic megalomania" and "prejudiced micromania". Happenstance, I found out that this book which grabbed my attention about 8 years ago, inspired Prof.Zvelebil too... he says this in a footnote in his "Companion Studies to the History of Tamil Literature" (Leiden, Brill 1992)... ____________ I remember being absolutely thrilled by reading this book for the first time while I was a student at Charles University in Prague in 1947 or 1948. ______________ Wish I could say sans embarrassment that "great minds think alike". ;-) -Srini. From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Thu Apr 17 18:19:07 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 14:19:07 -0400 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029775.23782.11770959984204874098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > > At 03:51 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi everybody, > > > > > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in > > >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant > > >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices > > > > > >Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz > > >and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city > > > > > >Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references > > >about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. > > > > > >Thanking in advance, > > > > > >sincerely > > > > > > > > >d e e p a k g u p t a > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > See also, Subhash Kak's work. For references, see his _The Astronomical Code of the RgVeda_ (New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1994). His email address is: . Sushil Mittal IIIS and WHP From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Thu Apr 17 14:17:29 1997 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 15:17:29 +0100 Subject: XIIth IABS Conference Message-ID: <161227029761.23782.14576914456859731238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tomabechi, pourrais-tu me donner un exemplaire du circulaire que tu as envoy? ? tant de monde? Merci d'avance. Johannes From william at sattvajala.org Thu Apr 17 14:23:15 1997 From: william at sattvajala.org (William Douglas) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 15:23:15 +0100 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029762.23782.7220277612202966379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hi everybody, > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices I suggest you look at some of the studies of Newar urban space and ritual. The Newars make much of various spatial orientations of their valley, and quite explicitly articulate their rituals within that geometry. A good place to start is Gutschow, N., and Kilver, B. 1975 _Ordered Space, Concepts and Functions in a Town in Nepal. Even more fun, but in German: Gutschow, N. 1982 _Stadtraum und Ritual der Newarischen Stadte im Kathmandu-tal Hope this helps. -wbd. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Douglas Wolfson College & +44 1865 310 759 Oriental Institute, Oxford. From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Thu Apr 17 17:26:01 1997 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 19:26:01 +0200 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029769.23782.3985875393127963433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the list, A student is looking for literature on the influence of English on modern Hindi, especially on gender attribution to English loan words in Hindi and on borrowing of verbs from English. Here, in our library, we could only find works like "Indianization of English". Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 18 00:51:32 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 20:51:32 -0400 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029782.23782.13999764017899547093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to a discussion on modern varieties of Sanskrit, the following comment was recently made: >Ten-day HSP Sanskrit has not gone quite as far as Latino sine flexione, >but by the same criteria we can say that it is no longer "real" Sanskrit >(in the sense that it is far from what Madhav Deshpande aptly termed the >"full variety"). While I would support the use of the term "full variety" to refer to the high-end variety of modern Sanskrit seen in scholarly Sanskrit works, Sanskrit research journals like Saarasvatii-Su.samaa, and the high quality Sanskrit poetry of poets like Bhaaskara Varnekar, we need to take a more studied look at the kind of Sanskrit taught by the HSP. While it is clearly not "full" in terms of its relatively small inventory, I would not call it "unreal". It is, to use a more neutral expression, a "subset" of the full variety. It sticks to a narrower set of choices which are indeed available in the full variety. It is possible, as suggested in several email messages, that a usage like raama.h graamam gatavaan may be preferred in the south because of its similarity with some constructions in Kannada and Tamil. However, we should not lose sight of the fact that it is a construction fully allowed by the Paninian grammar. Increased use of past participal constructions, in the place of finite verb constructions, in the medieval narrative works is in all likelihood related to the ergative construction in the mother-toungues of the users of Sanskrit. What seems most interesting is that different local varieties of simplified Sanskrit make different choices for their subsets. To the extent these subsets do not violate the rules of the full variety, these subsets could serve as elementary steps toward a later acquisition of the full variety. However, if the subset violates the rules of the full variety, for example by substituting the plural for the dual, then this is indeed not a subset of the full variety, but a compromised form of Sanskrit. Such compromises were suggested by some innovators in Pune when I was growing up. One of these was to have all verb roots moved to the first conjugation, and of course to get rid of the dual. I would be very careful to avoid such compromised varieties. But, otherwise, a subset variety may be useful for certain pedagogical purposes. I remember that when we were learning Sanskrit at the Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapith in Pune, we did not go beyond the past imperfect for quite some time. It was only later that we were introduced to the forms of past perfect and aorist. The last one was particularly felt to be a difficult acquisition, and being able to use aorist was considered to be a great accomplishment. Here, the decision to start with a smaller subset of grammar was indeed a pedagogically sound decision. If one were to stop before acquiring the past perfect and the aorist, one still had a legitimate subset of Sanskrit grammar. Thus, each variety of Sanskrit needs to be carefully analysed to see whether it is a legitimate subset of the full variety, or whether it involves compromises which violate the rules of the full variety. Madhav Deshpande From rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu Fri Apr 18 02:13:23 1997 From: rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 21:13:23 -0500 Subject: nAma Message-ID: <161227029784.23782.11947847716011337664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Annette Wilke wrote: >I am presently working on Divine Names in Hinduism and I am interested in some informations concerning the topic: > >1) Do also folk deities have (sahasra)nAmAvalis or even nAmastotras? (I know only a vast number of examples of litanies to the deities of the pancAyatana-group) I am not sure what you mean by folk deities. But, nAmastotra-s etc are not restricted to devata-s in the pa.nchAyatana. My copy of the bR^ihatstotra ratnAkaraH contains ashTottaram-s of the all the planets. There is a sahasranAma of sarasvatI from the skanda purANa. I have also seen a laxmI sahasranAma. But, usually, these litanies are on shiva or vishhNu or one of their popular forms. >2) Modern gurus often do have litanies with 108 or 1000 names (such as Chinmaya, Ramana Maharshi, Amma). Is it a modern practice or do you know litanies to historical saints? I have seen ashTottaram-s on sha.nkara and vidyAraNya also. You might want to take a look at: Medieval Sanskrit literature, [ History of Indian Literature ], by Jan Gonda. It has a whole section on stotra-s. He talks about sahasranAma-s etc also in some detail. Ramakrishnan. -- http://yake.ecn.purdue.edu/~rbalasub/ From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu Apr 17 22:34:20 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 21:34:20 -0100 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029781.23782.4341095064117494289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 16 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao voe> Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' voe> Sanskrit voe> I am curious about the use of sandhi in `real' spoken Sanskrit: voe> In print, it is customary to apply sandhi except at voe> sentence junctures. voe> if I want to speak the following in `real' Sanskrit, am I voe> supposed to voe> run through the whole thing in one breath, or can I pause? In texts written in technical Sanskrit prose (e.g. commentatorial literature), we see that in practice sandhi rules were relaxed. In metrical texts we do not see this, because sandhi effects the phonetic form of the words and therefore has prosodical influence. voe> Isn't it the case that in Pali and Prakrits, sandhi is voe> applied only voe> to standing phrases or very closely connected words? Isn't voe> the same the case in living languages? voe> [...] Why not break this cycle by ignoring voe> sandhi in printing (as in done in >all< languages except Sanskrit) This is not so. Sandhi is very much alive in the literary Dravidian languages. (If by "all" you also mean languages outside India: French is an obvious example of a language with written sandhi.) It is of course true that sandhi in these languages has less far-reaching consequences, but it is there. voe> To return to my original question, who owns Sanskrit? That is, who voe> decides what is `real' Sanskrit? Why is it `real' Sanskrit even voe> when intonation patterns that peek out from A.s.taadhyaayi voe> are not followed [for example, ``ki.m kriyaapra"sne ...'' suggests voe> that it was ``kim, ga'cchasiii'' for ``Are you going'' voe> (literally ``What, you are going?'') opposed to ``ki"n gacchasiii'' voe> for ``Whither are you going?''], but it is no longer Sanskrit voe> when sandhi is not applied blindly paying no attention to voe> natural pauses? Why is it `real' Sanskrit when we write ``ki.m voe> gacchasi'' even though the pronunciation is mostly ``ki"n gacchasi''? Clearly Hindus do not "own" Sanskrit, since it has also been used by Jainas and Buddhists (and Caarvaakas: viz. the Tattvopaplavasi.mha). Nor does any jaati or var.na own it. Nor do people in any part of India own it, since it is used all over India. Nay: it is not even owned solely by Indians, since it is has been used also by Nepalis, Indonesians and Tibetans. Nor is there any need for a distinct group of 'owners' to determine when something is no longer real Sanskrit. There is no such thing as an English Academy in imitation of the Academie francaise, and yet it is possible for the average speaker of English to determine whether something is real English or pidgin English. This also allows a degree of variation among e.g. regional varieties of English (southern English, northern English, Scottish, Irish, Canadian,...). There are varieties of Sanskrit, just as there were varieties of later Latin. When somebody arbitrarily decides to abolish features of a language which have been part and parcel of the traditional, gradual development of that language, and abolishes such features as to make it extremely difficult to understand the literary products in that language as they have been produced up to that point in time, then there is a break in the natural development and we have a newly produced language, derived from the old one, but not the same. Decades ago an Italian mathematician, Dr. Peano, devised "Latino sine flexione" as an international link language: Latin without inflexions. The very name shows that it is no longer real Latin: "Latino" cannot possibly be a nominative in real Latin, and although I do not "own" Latin, I can say this with certainty. Ten-day HSP Sanskrit has not gone quite as far as Latino sine flexione, but by the same criteria we can say that it is no longer "real" Sanskrit (in the sense that it is far from what Madhav Deshpande aptly termed the "full variety"). - Robert Zydenbos From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu Apr 17 22:47:02 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 21:47:02 -0100 Subject: LANGUAGES OF INDIA Message-ID: <161227029779.23782.6014621467339917534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 16 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Gue> From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Gue> Subject: RE: LANGUAGES OF INDIA Gue> Hindi and English operate in two completely different Gue> domains. South Indians resist Hindi because of the real Gue> fear of losing their linguistic heritages. On the other Gue> hand, English is the language par excellence for today's Gue> science and technology, especially anything to do with Gue> computers. Gue> In US universities, for engineering PhD qualifying Gue> examinations, another European language like German Gue> used to be a requirement. With major and varied scholarly Gue> writings coming out in English, that requirement Gue> is slowly going away nowadays. Is this a real reason, or is this only a pretext and is the real reason intellectual laziness and a general degeneration in standards? I know Western social scientists who claim to be experts on Karnataka but who cannot produce a single correct sentence of Kannada. Still nicer: I once heard a lady who knew no Kannada speak at an international conference about oral epics in Kannada. (And this is not because there is a wealth of good writing on these topics in English or other European languages.) Recently there was mention of "Danielou's" translation of Ma.nimeekalai on this list. All sorts of things are going on nowadays. Gue> If this is happening Gue> to German and French, it is hard to push down the throat Gue> of any Indian, Hindi or any other language. I do not see a necessary connection here. In Toronto we had the phenomenon of North Indian students who already knew at least some Hindi taking Hindi for their "humanities requirement" -- the staff suspected that this was because the students thought they could pass easily! - Robert Zydenbos From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 18 10:49:23 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 06:49:23 -0400 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029789.23782.10184837118025308216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The basic distinction seems to be between north and south Indian pronunciation. The south Indian pronunciation handles these as sequences of a short 'a' followed by i/y or u/v. This is what makes a word like vaiyaakara.na indistinguishable from vayyaakara.na. This is evidenced by errors in the manuscripts of this kind. In the Hindi speaking area, these are pronounced often as ae and ao, similar to vowels in the English words 'at' and 'mall'. Thus the word 'maithi(la)' in north Indian pronunciation often sounds like 'Kathy'. These differences also become evident when for instance a south Indian person speaks Hindi. In these respects, the pronunciation of the Maharashtrian Sanskrit users is more like their southern neighbors (though in terms of the current political trends in Maharashtra, we do not like to admit that We the Aryans have anything to do with our Dravidian neighbors to the south!). Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Richard Barz wrote: > I've been away and am late in the conversational Sanskrit discussion so I'm > sorry if my question has already been dealt with, but I'd very much like to > hear from Sanskritists familiar with the current Sanskrit pronunciation in > various parts of India how the vowels "ai" and "au" are pronounced in the > different areas. > > Richard Barz > Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au > > > > From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu Fri Apr 18 15:22:46 1997 From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 08:22:46 -0700 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029793.23782.9070355051629765054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to Prof. Deshpande's observations, I have also noticed a "North Indian" pronunciation of ai as different from the "Dravida" pronunciation. But here I observe something different than Prof. Deshpande... I have noticed the word jaina pronounced "jane". (We "Dravidians" tend to give the dipthong its full pronunciation) cheers, Chandan Narayan. On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The basic distinction seems to be between north and south Indian > pronunciation. The south Indian pronunciation handles these as sequences > of a short 'a' followed by i/y or u/v. This is what makes a word like > vaiyaakara.na indistinguishable from vayyaakara.na. This is evidenced by > errors in the manuscripts of this kind. In the Hindi speaking area, these > are pronounced often as ae and ao, similar to vowels in the English words > 'at' and 'mall'. Thus the word 'maithi(la)' in north Indian pronunciation > often sounds like 'Kathy'. These differences also become evident when for > instance a south Indian person speaks Hindi. In these respects, the > pronunciation of the Maharashtrian Sanskrit users is more like their > southern neighbors (though in terms of the current political trends in > Maharashtra, we do not like to admit that We the Aryans have anything to > do with our Dravidian neighbors to the south!). > Madhav Deshpande > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Richard Barz wrote: > > > I've been away and am late in the conversational Sanskrit discussion so I'm > > sorry if my question has already been dealt with, but I'd very much like to > > hear from Sanskritists familiar with the current Sanskrit pronunciation in > > various parts of India how the vowels "ai" and "au" are pronounced in the > > different areas. > > > > Richard Barz > > Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au > > > > > > > > > > > From jaybee at tm.net.my Fri Apr 18 15:43:11 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 08:43:11 -0700 Subject: Apologies to all Message-ID: <161227029817.23782.818214389871169772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Brzezinski wrote: > > Apologies to all for wasting your time with a bogus virus alert. Thank you > for wisening me up. > Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. > 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 > (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 I read something in the Malaysian papers recently about "Mail Bomb". If you receive it, it is supposed to start off an unending stream of the same word which just goes on repeating itself thus causing irrepairable damage.. Is such a thing in existence? JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Fri Apr 18 13:30:46 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:30:46 -0400 Subject: IJHS Book review panel Message-ID: <161227029790.23782.3874073523950760851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BOOK REVIEW PANEL _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ wishes to add to its files the names of individuals willing to undertake occasional book review assignments for the Journal. It is important to keep our reviewers files up to date in order to have access to as broad a group of scholars as possible for the numerous review assignments. _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ invites interested individuals to complete the form below and email it to: Review Editor, Carl Olson, Department of Religious Studies, Allegheny College, Meadville, PA 16335-3902, USA Tel.(814) 332-3313 FAX (814) 333-8180 Email: ======================================================================= _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Book review panel I would be willing to accept occasional assignments to review books for _International Journal of Hindu Studies_. Name: Mailing address: Tel nos: Work: Home: Fax no: Email address: Present position, Institutional affiliation (if any): Academic discipline (e.g. Religion, Anthropology): Subject interest (e.g. folklore, women) Country interests (list in descending order): 1. 2. 3. 4. Specialist research (e.g. Kashmir Saivite theory of aesthetics): Cite one recent title you have published (publisher and date): If willing to review books written in languages other than English, please specify which languages: Signature: Date: ========================================================================== From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Fri Apr 18 21:08:54 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 11:08:54 -1000 Subject: Cloning souls Message-ID: <161227029808.23782.14396115419147309072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The problem of cloning souls put forth by Erik Hoogcarspel is interesting. Do they have a lifetime warranty? Curious, Raja. From deepak at ksu.edu Fri Apr 18 16:58:33 1997 From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 11:58:33 -0500 Subject: Ritual and Architecture. Message-ID: <161227029800.23782.552916325672391823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Everybody Thanks a lot for the quick and immense response. I could find some material to get me started. regards d e e p a k g u p t a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ deepak at ksu.edu || www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Apr 18 16:42:34 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:42:34 -0400 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029795.23782.15762820256132770451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to Prof. Deshpande's observations, I have also noticed a "North Indian" pronunciation of ai as different from the "Dravida" pronunciation. But here I observe something different than Prof. Deshpande... I have noticed the word jaina pronounced "jane". (We "Dravidians" tend to give the dipthong its full pronunciation) cheers, Chandan Narayan. Is it possible that this is so because the Southern languages recognize 2 varieties (e, E and o, O as opposed to just e and o in Sanskrit/Hindi etc) in the preceding vowels ? > The basic distinction seems to be between north and south Indian > pronunciation. The south Indian pronunciation handles these as sequences > of a short 'a' followed by i/y or u/v. This is what makes a word like > vaiyaakara.na indistinguishable from vayyaakara.na. This is evidenced by > errors in the manuscripts of this kind. In the Hindi speaking area, these > are pronounced often as ae and ao, similar to vowels in the English words > 'at' and 'mall'. Thus the word 'maithi(la)' in north Indian pronunciation > often sounds like 'Kathy'. These differences also become evident when for > instance a south Indian person speaks Hindi. I am reminded painfully ;-) of the parodies of South Indian speech in Hindi films... Mehmood in "paDosan" springs to mind ! > In these respects, the > pronunciation of the Maharashtrian Sanskrit users is more like their > southern neighbors (though in terms of the current political trends in > Maharashtra, we do not like to admit that We the Aryans have anything to > do with our Dravidian neighbors to the south!). > Madhav Deshpande I have met certain KannaDigas who themselves disown any connection of their language to Dravidian !!! And certain relatives of mine swear, partly in jest, that they have Aryan blue blood flowing thru their veins... all I know is that these jokers are all hot-blooded ;-) -Srini. From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Fri Apr 18 02:48:20 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:48:20 +1000 Subject: conv-dev: how to join the South Asian special list Message-ID: <161227029786.23782.9149161898317685803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to recent questions on this list about the transliteration of South Asian languages, I am forwarding information I received about a (new?) list devoted to discussing just that. Royce Wiles >> >>conv-dev: how to join the South Asian special list >> >> >>This is a reminder to all those listed below, who have expressed an >>interest in South Asian scripts, that the following email discussion list: >> >> conv-dev at elot.gr >> >>has been set up to allow detailed discussion on transliteration of South >>Asian languages and scripts. >> >>Currently this is underused (too few messages and too few subscribers) >>and I would urge any of the following who are not yet subscribed to do >>so. If you received a test message very recently which confirms you are on >>the list you need take no further action: if you did not receive such a >>test message, I would urge you to subscribe. All you need do is: >> >>Send an email to >> >> majordomo at elot.gr >> >>with this message in the body of the text: >> >> subscribe conv-dev your at email.address >> >>(but with your real email address replacing the string your at email.address). >> >>Once you are subscribed, you will receive an e-mail welcome message with >>useful information when your subscription request is processed and approved. >>You can then send messages to conv-dev at elot.gr and receive messages from >>other members of the list. Please reply where possible to the list as a >>whole, so that all can benefit: using the Group Reply function (pressing G >>on some email software) is the simplest way to achieve this. >> >>Other members will also be interested to see who else is joining the list, so >>it is useful to send a brief introduction (say, one or two short paragraphs) >>to conv-dev at elot.gr at the outset, saying what languages, scripts and other >>things you are involved in. That is the most likely way to stimulate others >>to write on the subjects you are interested in! >> >>Here is the list of those who have expressed an interest in South Asian >>scripts, arranged by country code: others with an interest in this area, >>who have not been included (apolgies for any omissions) are of course >>welcome to subscribe to conv-dev, but please send me information on the >>specific scripts that you are interested in. >> >>AE chambers at mail.emirates.net.ae Ge He Et Ar SOA >>AU daw601 at anu.edu.au Ar SoA >>AU wellsd at boris.curtin.edu.au Gr Cy De Ta CJK >>CA alb at sct.gouv.qc.ca Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>CA arsenaul at fis.utoronto.ca Cy SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>CA- RIVA at LIB1.LAN.MCGILL.CA Gr Cy Am De >>DE 100124.3075 at CompuServe.COM Gr SoA Tib Mon CJK >>DE gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de SoA SEA Tib >>DE grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de SoA >>DK viralbus at ling.hum.aau.dk Gr Cy Ge SoA SEA CJK >>FR chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr SoA >>GB 101621.104 at compuserve.com; SoA Tib >>GB bw at pindar.co.uk Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>GB converse at sesame.demon.co.uk Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>GB T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK Gr Cy Ge He Ar De Gu BeTib Mon CJ- >>GE viralbus at access.sanet.ge Gr Cy Ge SoA SEA CJK >>IE everson at indigo.ie Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>IN- doctor at parcom.ernet.in SoA >>IN sibal at att.com SoA SEA >>LK- ibric at sri.lanka.net SoA >>LK jayeward at cc.ruh.ac.lk Si >>MY mrm at eng.upm.edu.my SoA SEA >>NL WITKAM at rulub3.LeidenUniv.nl Gr Cy Am Ge He Et AR Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>NO haavardh at powertech.no Gr Cy He Ar De Ta >>SG dmenon at pacific.net.sg SoA Th >>US abreeve at afterlife.ncsc.mil Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>US ajatkar at astromet.com SoA (mar) >>US apandey at u.washington.edu Ar SoA Tib >>US barbara_brownell at oclc.org Cy Am Ge He Ar SoA SEA >>US bmisra at fas.harvard.edu SoA >>US Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu SoA SEA >>US csetzer at mum.edu SoA SEA >>US ECOLING at aol.com Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>US elaine at selway.umt.edu Gr Cy am ge he et ar di SoA sea tib mon CJk >>US fayerl at vms.cis.pitt.edu gr Cy am ge He et Ar di soa sea tib mon cjk >>US fnewton at cumberland.lib.nc.us Gr Cy De Gu >>US fp7 at columbia.edu Ar SoA >>US jblowe at garnet.berkeley.edu Gr Ar SoA SEA Tib CJK >>US jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu SoA >>US Joe at Duxsys.com Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>US monggol at waldorf.cc.wwu.edu Cy Ar SoA Tib Mon CJK >>US rbar at loc.gov gr Cy am ge he et Ar di soa sea tib mon cjk >>US rscook at world.std.com Gr SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>US sbladey at omnilex.com Gr Cy Am Ge He Et Ar Di SoA SEA Tib Mon CJK >>US tlander at cse.ogi.edu Cy Ar SoA CJK >>US zbarlev at mail.sdsu.edu Gr Cy He Ar soa CJ- >> >>I look forward to seeing new participants on the conv-dev list. Please >>feel free to forward this to anyone else who may be interested in >>transliteration of South Asian scripts, and to send any queries about the >>list to me. >> >> Yours sincerely >> >> >> John Clews >>-- >> John Clews (Chairman of ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages) >> >>SESAME Computer Projects, 8 Avenue Rd. * email: Converse at sesame.demon.co.uk >>Harrogate, HG2 7PG, United Kingdom * telephone: +44 (0) 1423 888 432 Royce Wiles Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 From jai at mantra.com Fri Apr 18 22:56:31 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:56:31 -1000 Subject: Cloning souls Message-ID: <161227029811.23782.8715406446254919620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:12 p.m. 4/18/97 BST, Narayan S. Raja wrote: >> The problem of cloning souls put forth by Erik Hoogcarspel is >> interesting. > > Do they have a lifetime warranty? > Curious, Raja. The soul is everlasting; no warranty required if this point is realized! Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com Om Shanti From jehms at globalxs.nl Fri Apr 18 12:36:22 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 13:36:22 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: REQUEST:Cloning of sheep:Duplicate Souls?] Message-ID: <161227029796.23782.13578403514096791005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 16-apr-97 schreef JAYABARATHI: >Perhaps the Hon.Members of the List might have something to say in this >matter.....? einstein was theologist or philosopher, so let's not dwell on this last quotation. cloning however, raises the question of the relation between life and soul...and maybe time and knowledge. life can be artificially created, but can a soul be created and designed? if a soul were designed, how could it have a will of it's own? it's possible to design a computerprogram with many inpredictable reactions, the inpredictability is however still predictable, but don't we expect a soul to have a life of it's own? are animal souls the same as human one's? when some people say ziva creates the souls, they're talking about a myth, a narrative with a nonfactual content so to say. the scientific fact is that souls come into being when conditions are suitable and that thinking requires language, so that a human soul cannot exist outside some kind of community. another fact is that the concept of a soul, implies that it has it's own will and that excludes causal explanation. i want what i want because i want it. another question is wether we would call a soul an event or a thing. science can only create things and events. if a soul is no such thing, what else? i would suggest to define the soul as the meaning of a personal name, so the birds in the tree outside your window don't have souls, but your cat minny has one. soul would then be a sociolinguistic phenomena. would this go along with the myths? erikh From jaybee at tm.net.my Fri Apr 18 20:43:57 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 13:43:57 -0700 Subject: -indra Message-ID: <161227029821.23782.13666548646956544839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch wrote: > > >>Interestingly, Inder is a pervasive suffix: Mahinder, Rajinder, > >>Bhupinder, etc. A reference to the martial qualities of Indra, the god of > >>storms, I suppose. If that is the case, then Punjab is the only place > >>where this Vedic deity is so regularly refered to in everyday life today! > > > >The word "indra" was also used as a common noun 'hero, warrior', even among > >Buddhists who knew the god under the name $akra. I for my part knew a > >Javanese named Ali Birendra! > > You've also got "shilendra" which is an epithet of Shiva (from which the > name of the Javanese slendro I'm told is derived), although I don't know > what it means. Same etymology I suppose? > > Otherwise, since you know where to find all those fonts, do you know by > any chance where I could find a font of the shavian alphabet? (Does it > even have an encoding scheme?) No that's not a trivia question :), > I really like how it looks, looks a bit like malayalam to me, > except for that it's not incredibly useful. > > It suddenly got reminded I don't know why, and I thought you were the > right person to answer this question. (If you can't don't lose any > sleep over it :) > > Cheers > Jacob > > ps: Don't forget to add info for translitteration of shavian to your > page :) Sailendra is one of the names of Siva. Parvati is known as Sailenra Dhanaya,or Sailendri. But in history, the Sailendras were a powerful dynasty who ruled over the Malay Archipelago- (Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java,and few thousand more islands).The region was known at one time,as the Sri Vijaya Empire. The Sailendra emperors held sway for over six hundred years. They were known as the "Kings of the Mountains" for a reason.The Pandyas of Tamilnadu were also known as" Saila raja"s.They were better known as "Malayan"s. The mainland part of the Sri Vijaya Empire was known as "Malaya".It is known still by the same name.Kings of "Malaya"-"Sailendra"s. The Khmer Emperors also were known by a similar name for a similar reason. After all,the" Phnom" in" Phnom Phen" also means a mountain. "Silendro"is a derivative of the" Sailendra".The Sailendras had a close affinity with East Java. JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah (@Kadaram- province of Sri Vijaya) Malaysia (@Malaya) From Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au Fri Apr 18 04:04:26 1997 From: Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au (Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 14:04:26 +1000 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029787.23782.7726753153192077818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been away and am late in the conversational Sanskrit discussion so I'm sorry if my question has already been dealt with, but I'd very much like to hear from Sanskritists familiar with the current Sanskrit pronunciation in various parts of India how the vowels "ai" and "au" are pronounced in the different areas. Richard Barz Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 18 18:53:48 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 14:53:48 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029801.23782.13489986983083229787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos) wrote: > Furthermore, avoiding a conjugated active past-tense verb form by > using a verbal agentive noun reduces the amount of grammar which the learner > needs to learn and thus further simplifies this neo-Sanskrit. I expressed my reservations about this view earlier, but it may be worthwhile to be more explicit: (1) Replacement of finite forms by participal forms goes back a long way. By Patanjali's time, the participle in -ta had replaced perfect in asking questions: `kva yuuyam u.sitaa.h?' instead of `[kva] uu.sa?' In drama dialogues, the use of -ta participle is quite common compared to aorist or perfect. This process may have started even in Vedic times: McDonell (Vedic Grammar for Students) qualifies the use of -ta forms in place of finite verbs as `frequent', in constrast to the use of other participle forms in place of finite verbs. (2) The participle in -ta is more ergative than passive. It is `raama aagata.h' vs `raame.na pustakam pa.thitam'. (I know that many Sanskrit grammars call it the `past/perfect passive participle', but syntax should be determined from usage, not from what names books choose to give to a construction. This is especially true for the most used books on Sanskrit grammar, which are quite outdated in terms of the underlying theory of language.) [An interesting tidbit: In English, even in the 18th century, the past participle of verbs of motion used forms of `be' as auxillaries (see Jespersen's ``Essentials of English Grammar'' for citations). This would have led to the above situation in English also: `Mr. Harley was gone out' vs `The song was sung by John'. Of course, English also used `have' as the auxilary and that prevailed, with `be' only for the passive and for indicating close relation with the present (``He is gone!''). What I find curious is that `The fat lady has sung' virtually the same as `giitavatii pu.s.ta"sariiraa'. After all, the meaning of the suffix -vat/mat is not so different from `have'.] (3) Technical and scholarly writing in English uses the passive more often than colloquial talk, either in English or Tamil. Tamilians seem to have no trouble with this. Why should they have trouble with passive in Sanskrit? (4) The way present is formed in the writings I see in Sambhaa.sana- Sande"sa is with present participle `vadan asti', instead of `vadati'. For thematic verbs, the vast majority of verbs in actual use, the imperfect is trivial to form from the present participle. There is no reason to avoid the imperfect to simplify the conjugation. [Of course, even if the imperfect is sytematically used, somebody would say ``They teach their students to say `gate ravivaasare raama.h aagacchat'. That is not `real' Sanskrit.'' I fully expect some others to just keep repeating this. Such is human nature.] (5) If nominal formations are preferred, periphrastic future should be preferred to sigmatic future. Is there any evidence for this? It is far simpler to assume that `Conversational Sanskrit' started from the widespread use of -ta participle and replaced it by -tavat so that sentences are subjective [closer to Dravidian and English] rather than ergative. The simplication of inflection occured centuries ago, and has nothing to do with `this neo-Sanskrit'. ---------- To change the topic :-), is there a difference in attitudes to things Indian between those who learnt Sanskrit grammar from Whitney and those who learnt it from McDonell or Renou (and then went straight to Altindische Grammatik/Syntax for further information)? Just curious. --------- Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Fri Apr 18 14:06:58 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 15:06:58 +0100 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029792.23782.11587844930761673838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rupert Snell, 'The Hidden Hand: English lexis, syntax and idiom as determinants of modern Hindi usage', *South Asia Research* vol 10, No. 1, May 1990, pp. 53-68. Detailed study, with some references to previous work. Dr Dermot Killingley Dept of Religious Studies University of Newcastle upon Tyne Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU Phone 0191 222 6730 Fax 0191 222 5185 On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, pwyzlic wrote: > > Dear Members of the list, > > A student is looking for literature on the influence of English on modern > Hindi, especially on gender attribution to English loan words in Hindi and > on borrowing of verbs from English. Here, in our library, we could only > find works like "Indianization of English". Any help will be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de > > > From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Sat Apr 19 01:24:02 1997 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 15:24:02 -1000 Subject: Cloning souls Message-ID: <161227029812.23782.13129735828495137736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote: > At 10:12 p.m. 4/18/97 BST, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > >> The problem of cloning souls put forth by Erik Hoogcarspel is >> > interesting. > > > > Do they have a lifetime warranty? > > Curious, Raja. > > The soul is everlasting; no warranty [...] Only if lubricated regularly, as Lord Krishna himself attests. Madhu --> Maadhava. Hic. Raja. From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 18 19:31:05 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 15:31:05 -0400 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029803.23782.6799421168402796604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pronunciation of 'Jaina' as 'jane' is interesting indeed. Clearly there was a lot of dialectal variation in the pronunciation of the diphthongs. I have discussed some of this variation in my forthcoming edition of Shaunakiiyaa Caturaadhyaayikaa (HOS, 1997?). The coloring of the components is an interesting issue. For example, while most southern speakers cannot distinguish between vaiyaakara.na and vayyakara.na, notice the Pali veyyaakara.na. This is a sign of some old dialectal coloring. For Patanjali, the constituents of e and o are fused with each other (pra"sli.s.ta), while the constituents of ai and au are not so fused. These two are called samaahaaravar.na, groupings of vowels. But for Patanjali, the constituents of ai and au are viv.rtatara "more open" than their independent occurrences. This is, in my opinion, not the case with the modern south Indian pronunciation of ai and au, where the initial a seems, if anything, shorter and less open than the normal a. In any case, modern regional pronunciations of Sanskrit are more closely connected with the regional vernaculars, than with anything inherited from Patanjali. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jacob Baltuch wrote: > >In addition to Prof. Deshpande's observations, I have also noticed a > >"North Indian" pronunciation of ai as different from the "Dravida" > >pronunciation. But here I observe something different than Prof. > >Deshpande... I have noticed the word jaina pronounced "jane". (We > >"Dravidians" tend to give the dipthong its full pronunciation) > >cheers, Chandan Narayan. > > It seems to me that the main thing distinguishing the prononciation > of the diphtongs 'ai' or 'au' compared to the sequence 'a-i' and 'a-u', at > least in the theoretical pronunciation of sanskrit, is that the *color* > of the first element of the diphtongs is that of *long* 'a' whereas the > color of the the 'a' in 'a-i' and 'a-u' is that of short 'a'. > > Indeed, as far as I know long 'a' and short 'a' are not only distinguished > by length but also by vowel color. (Apparently this is the meaning of > Panini's shortest sutra? At least that's what Coulson says) > > Note I'm *not* saying that the first element of 'ai' and 'au' is long, only > the vowel color is the same. > > Is that correct? > > (Of course another thing distinguishing in principle a diphtong > from a sequence of vowels in hiatus is that the vocal chords are > supposed to continue their vibrations thru the modification of > color in the enunciation of a diphtong, whereas in a sequence of > vowels there is a global readjustement which implies at least a > very light interruption of the vibrations of the vocal chords. > Phoneticians please don't kill me if this is wrong :) > > > > From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 18 19:36:13 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 15:36:13 -0400 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029804.23782.11314134695288177375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos) wrote: > In texts written in technical Sanskrit prose (e.g. commentatorial > literature), we see that in practice sandhi rules were relaxed. In > metrical texts we do not see this, because sandhi effects the phonetic > form of the words and therefore has prosodical influence. The editor's introduction in the HSS I referred to earlier notes that in some verses attributed to Bhart.rhari, sandhi is occasionally not applied at the caesura. In the Kaavyas, sandhi is applied between the padas, but not always in puraa.nas. > > voe> Isn't it the case that in Pali and Prakrits, sandhi is > voe> applied only > voe> to standing phrases or very closely connected words? Isn't > voe> the same the case in living languages? > > voe> [...] Why not break this cycle by ignoring > voe> sandhi in printing (as in done in >all< languages except Sanskrit) > > This is not so. Sandhi is very much alive in the literary Dravidian > languages. In Tamil, for novels, prose works expounding some aspect of Tamil literature or cilture etc, sandhi is applied only for word/morpheme groups that form a whole, like words forming a compound verb. > (If by "all" you also mean languages outside India: French is an obvious > example of a language with written sandhi.) Between articles and associated nouns, between (some) prepositions and associated nouns etc. Do you mean to say that sandhi is applied in print between the object and the verb, between the subject and the verb? My reading of French is for the most part limited to math papers, but I don't even remember sandhi being applied in print between adjective and the noun. > It is of course true that sandhi in > these languages has less far-reaching consequences, but it is there. `less far-reaching' is to put it mildly. > Ten-day HSP Sanskrit has not gone quite as far as Latino sine flexione, > but by the same criteria we can say that it is no longer "real" Sanskrit > (in the sense that it is far from what Madhav Deshpande aptly termed > the "full variety"). We are going around in circles here. What is `real Sanskrit'? What features must the dialect have before it is `real' Sanskrit? I get the feeling that the answer will end up being ``Whatever features of Sanskrit I know''. And what is >the< `full variety'? Is it `the full variety' if I say `prabhaate kaaphi apibam'? [Did "Saakalya speak `real' Sanskrit? :-^] What about `godser gaandhim ahan'? Can one have servicable Sanskrit by knowing only the imperfect, as Professor Deshpande implied in his reply, or would you disagree with it? Would it be `the full variety' if baadhate and kli"snaati are used interchangeably? What about siidati and aaste? Where does one draw the line? Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From raynaldp at bbsi.net Fri Apr 18 21:28:36 1997 From: raynaldp at bbsi.net (Raynald Prevereau) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 16:28:36 -0500 Subject: Cloning souls Message-ID: <161227029806.23782.8828515577097055773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > cloning however, raises the question of the relation between life and >soul...and maybe time and knowledge. The problem of cloning souls put forth by Erik Hoogcarspel is interesting. Of course, for Buddhists this is a false problem since the soul is a fiction and the origin of life is not nearly as important (perhaps even insignificant) as putting an end to du.hkha. I leave it to others to address Erik's question, but I wish to raise another one: How would Buddhists approach the problem of cloning? In fact, what could be the problem with cloning for a Buddhist? I suspect that cloning sheeps opens the door to cloning humans and, perhaps eventually, to creating a 'perfect humain being' on the basis of, undoubtedly, very arbitrary criteria if politicians, economists and war generals ever had their say in the decision. Yet, as Vasubandhu suggested in his Vi.m"satikaa, it is because we have a similar karmic history that we have similar experiences of the world. Cloning humans would reshape the karmic potential/status of humanity, but in what sense is it a problem? Please note that I am not totally immoral and that I am aware of some of the problems related to cloning. In this message, I simply wish to raise the question of cloning in the context of Buddhist philosophy; I have no thesis (thank you Naagaarjuna!). Raynald Prevereau Sept-Iles, Quebec, Canada P.S. I realise that my question is perhaps more appropriate for a list such as BUDDHA-L. BTW, is the BUDDHA-L list still alive? (If not, where did its soul go? -- no pun intended. I just had a long day.) From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 18 21:25:01 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:25:01 -0400 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029809.23782.3601276522224839840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are getting some interesting discussion here. >Can one have servicable Sanskrit by knowing only the imperfect, as >Professor Deshpande implied in his reply, or would you disagree with it? >Would it be `the full variety' if baadhate and kli"snaati are used >interchangeably? What about siidati and aaste? Where does one draw the >line? The tradition itself drew such lines in all sorts of ways. Many texts begin with words like baalaanaam sukhabodhaaya. We not only have the Siddhaantakaumudii of Bha.t.toji Dik.sita, we have Madhyasiddhaanta- kaumuddii, Laghusiddhaantakaumudii, and Saarasiddhaantakaumudii. The great Naage"sabha.t.ta himself produced elementary and advanced versions of his works like "Sekhara and Manjuu.saa, and to match Bha.t.toji's Prau.dhamanoramaa, his disciple produced a Baalamanoramaa. Different simplified and/or compromised varieties of Sanskrit have existed throughout history, and Patanjali himself admitted that people do not go to the house of a grammarian to have their words produced for them. They just go ahead and use the language as they please. The grammarians (and us today) can only sit back and pass our opinions, but that has not prevented the emergence of different sorts of Sanskrit. The simple fact is that serviceability and adequacy of a variety is in the eye of the beholder. In the Venkateshwara temple in Pittsburgh, I heard a priest give a blessing to a woman named Kamalaa with : kamalaasya sukham bhavatu. Obviously, the only person who was unhappy was I. Kamalaa was very happy with the blessing she received. The priest continued to add -sya after the name of every devotee who came by and did not seem to be aware of any problems. As for Venkateshwara himself, I am waiting to hear his reaction. Madhav Deshpande From jai at mantra.com Sat Apr 19 03:25:20 1997 From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:25:20 -1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: REQUEST:Cloning of sheep:Duplicate Souls?] Message-ID: <161227029816.23782.7005503233475253290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:25 AM 4/19/97 BST, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > I don't think this is a very appropriate subject for this list, but > here are my $0.02 anyway [...] The above is hilarious. Dhanyavaad for the laughs! Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com Om Shanti From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Fri Apr 18 16:58:06 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 18:58:06 +0200 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029798.23782.1473056279982057191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In addition to Prof. Deshpande's observations, I have also noticed a >"North Indian" pronunciation of ai as different from the "Dravida" >pronunciation. But here I observe something different than Prof. >Deshpande... I have noticed the word jaina pronounced "jane". (We >"Dravidians" tend to give the dipthong its full pronunciation) >cheers, Chandan Narayan. It seems to me that the main thing distinguishing the prononciation of the diphtongs 'ai' or 'au' compared to the sequence 'a-i' and 'a-u', at least in the theoretical pronunciation of sanskrit, is that the *color* of the first element of the diphtongs is that of *long* 'a' whereas the color of the the 'a' in 'a-i' and 'a-u' is that of short 'a'. Indeed, as far as I know long 'a' and short 'a' are not only distinguished by length but also by vowel color. (Apparently this is the meaning of Panini's shortest sutra? At least that's what Coulson says) Note I'm *not* saying that the first element of 'ai' and 'au' is long, only the vowel color is the same. Is that correct? (Of course another thing distinguishing in principle a diphtong from a sequence of vowels in hiatus is that the vocal chords are supposed to continue their vibrations thru the modification of color in the enunciation of a diphtong, whereas in a sequence of vowels there is a global readjustement which implies at least a very light interruption of the vibrations of the vocal chords. Phoneticians please don't kill me if this is wrong :) From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat Apr 19 02:22:25 1997 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 19:22:25 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Re: REQUEST:Cloning of sheep:Duplicate Souls?] Message-ID: <161227029814.23782.3196875880247578101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > cloning however, raises the question of the relation between life and > soul...and maybe time and knowledge. I don't think this is a very appropriate subject for this list, but here are my $0.02 anyway. Strictly speaking, cloning raises no more troubling questions about life and soul than good old sexual reproduction, or artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization or surrogate motherhood do. It is just a different method of moving DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) around and getting it to replicate. It seems to me that most of the questions raised about cloning are based on one questionable premise, viz. that the creation (birth, if you will) of a new body implies the creation of a new soul. This premise is questionable because normal sexual reproduction also results in a new body, and nobody is overly concerned about creating or duplicating souls this way. No religion, whatever its individual conception of soul may be, would consider that the father and mother have actually created a new soul. They would rather assign such creatorship to God or say that the soul is eternal and never created. Why not extend the same religious sensibility to a clone? The problems people perceive with cloning also overlook a more fundamental question that biology poses - namely the fact that there is no life (and may be no souls) without the material basis in the nucleic acids, RNA and DNA. If you are worried about "creating" souls by cloning, then you should be equally worried about whether the bacterium has a soul as a human being does - after all, the life of both comes from the same material source - and you should be worried about all sorts of ethical problems about killing bacteria that cause infections and killing animals to eat them. As an Indian scientist, I am almost tempted to say that people in the West are not bothered about these questions, but get all worked up over cloning, only because of their Judeo-Christian, anthropomorphic constructions of soul and God. Really, the only moral/ethical problems with cloning (if it becomes technically possible to do it successfully on humans, which by the way, is not very sure) arise not from the fact that it can be done, but from the question whether it should be done. That science can do something is one thing. Whether a scientist should do it is another. Good scientists will be the first to accept that, for something that affects people as personally as the possibility of human cloning, scientists alone cannot and should not decide the matter. From the Buddhist or the Vedantic perspectives, the only "karmic" consequences will result from the choices that we human beings make, and the level of avidyA that dictates such choices. > life can be artificially created, but can a soul be created and designed? if a Such an argument seems to create a rather artificial distinction between "life" and "soul" in the first place. One could argue that nothing without a "soul" can "live", so that by definition, it is the soul that causes an entity to live (in whatever sense you understand these two terms). Secondly, life cannot be "artifically created", at least not yet. Although nucleic acids, proteins and cell wall components can all be individually synthesized in the laboratory, scientists have not been able to put together even the simplest unicellular organism, starting from artificially synthesized chemicals. Frankenstein monsters, computers with free will and self-reproducing robots exist only in fiction. The hard fact is that cloning, as much as sex, can only "create" new life from pre-existing life. > soul were designed, how could it have a will of it's own? it's possible to > design a computerprogram with many inpredictable reactions, the > inpredictability is however still predictable, but don't we expect a soul to > have a life of it's own? are animal souls the same as human one's? > when some people say ziva creates the souls, they're talking about a myth, a > narrative with a nonfactual content so to say. the scientific fact is that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > souls come into being when conditions are suitable and that thinking requires ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ As a scientist with an abiding interest in philosophy, I sharply disagree with the above statement. Science has nothing to say about when a soul comes into being and when it passes into non-being, nor whether it comes into being at all, nor whether something called soul even exists. That is the province of metaphysics/religion/philosophy, call it what you will. Some RELIGIONS say that a soul comes into being, other RELIGIONS say that the soul is eternal, and some RELIGIONS deny that the soul exists. Science (and the so-called scientific method) simply do not have the means to decide in favor of one vs. the others. Calling something a "scientific fact" does not invest it with any more or any less certitude than other kinds of fact. For that matter, there is no fact that is "scientific" in itself, and no fact that is "not scientific" in itself. What science does is to give you hypotheses, theories and conclusions, which explain the observed facts. These theories then make predictions, which can be verified or refuted. The verification of a prediction does not make it a scientific fact; on the other hand, what makes scientists accept a given theory is the degree to which a prediction made by that theory succeeds in explaining experimental results. A theory that does not make satisfactory predictions or one that makes wrong predictions is rejected. In any case, what is "scientific" is the theory, the explanation, the prediction; not the facts themselves. The statements, 1. the soul does not exist, 2. souls come into being and 3. souls are eternal are all equivalent, or should be, as far as scientists are concerned, because none of these can be either verified or refuted according to the scientist's way of thinking. They are of the same category as the statements, "God exists" and "God does not exist". These kinds of statements cannot be subjected to scientific examination and proof. As a result, these notions about the soul are facts or not facts according to your religious sensibilities, they are not scientific (not that any fact could ever be "scientific"). Don't expect science (or scientists) to bolster or weaken any of these notions. > language, so that a human soul cannot exist outside some kind of community. You're right about language being required for thinking. And if any decent thinking on the topic of cloning is ever to develop, we had better be careful about the language we use, and not define things arbitrarily. > another fact is that the concept of a soul, implies that it has it's own will Again, debatable. If you were to talk to advaitins, they would say that it is ultimately meaningless to talk of the "own will" of the Atman. > and that excludes causal explanation. i want what i want because i want it. > another question is wether we would call a soul an event or a thing. science > can only create things and events. if a soul is no such thing, what else? > i would suggest to define the soul as the meaning of a personal name, so the > birds in the tree outside your window don't have souls, but your cat minny has > one. soul would then be a sociolinguistic phenomena. This is just one step away from Descartes' argument about human beings having souls. Are you saying that the sparrow on the tree does not have a soul, but your parrot Polly has a soul, just because you gave her a name? If it were that easy to define soul as you do, the soul's existence is based on a whim, and is effectively removed both from the domain of science and the domain of religion. Are you sure that is such a good thing? S. Vidyasankar From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat Apr 19 00:52:08 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 23:52:08 -0100 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029822.23782.7154222266650193045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 18 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (mmdesh at umich.edu) me> From: Madhav Deshpande me> Subject: Re: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit >Ten-day HSP Sanskrit has not gone quite as far as Latino sine flexione, >but by the same criteria we can say that it is no longer "real" Sanskrit >(in the sense that it is far from what Madhav Deshpande aptly termed the >"full variety"). me> While I would support the use of the term "full variety" me> to refer me> to the high-end variety of modern Sanskrit seen in scholarly me> Sanskrit works, [...] we need to take me> a more studied look at the kind of Sanskrit taught by the me> HSP. While it me> is clearly not "full" in terms of its relatively small me> inventory, I would not call it "unreal". It is, to use a more neutral me> expression, a "subset" of the full variety. Agreed, this looks like a fair assessment of the nature of that new Sanskrit. But my problem is this: speech is, or at least should hold out the possibility of, two-way communication. Those who master full Sanskrit will understand the subset, but those who have only learnt the subset will be lost when confronted with the full variety. So two-way communication will be impossible. There is of course the theoretical possibility that all those who master full Sanskrit will learn what the subset is and use only that subset in conversation, thus knowingly and willingly impoverishing their Sanskrit, but I doubt whether this will happen. The same applies to written communication, and also to the one-way communication through time with authors of the past. Therefore I still think of ten-day Sanskrit not so much as "false" or "sham", nor as truly "real", but as "unreal" (just as Sanskrit in general is neither "dead", nor fully "living", but "undead"). (I hope this does not sound facetious.) It would have been fair if the HSP teachers would warn their students in advance ("if you read or hear something which you cannot recognize at all, it may be one of the many things which we do not teach you," or something like that). But it seems that they do not do so, or at least not explicitly and clearly enough; and if this impression of mine is correct, then I think they are committing a pedagogical blunder. me> What seems most interesting is that different local me> varieties of simplified Sanskrit make different choices for me> their subsets. This is a serious topic for study, which seems to have been relatively neglected till now: not only for contemporary Sanskrit, but for medieval Sanskrit too. Several studies have appeared about varieties of medieval Latin, but I have not seen so many thorough studies about varieties of later Sanskrit, apart from Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I suspect that it should be possible to give well-founded descriptions of regional varieties, as in the case of medieval Latin, for instance along the lines indicated by Vidhyanath Rao (influence of local Prakrits etc.). When a Sanskrit text contains e.g. Kannada words, it is clear where the text is from; but more interesting would be the frequency of / preference for certain genuinely old Sanskrit words / constructions (such as I suggested in my analysis of the penchant for -tavant). Such descriptions will be useful tools for literary historians. - Robert Zydenbos From jaybee at tm.net.my Sat Apr 19 08:25:37 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 01:25:37 -0700 Subject: Churki/kuDumi Message-ID: <161227029838.23782.16408387558840791760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > Mr. Ganesan has raised some interesting facts, which can have somemore facts added onto. > RE: CHURKI > > Is churki/juu.Du attested in Vedas or post-Vedic literature? > cuuTu is to wear, in Tamil. cuuTu and juuDa look pretty close. > > kuDumi means mountain top, and also churki in Tamil. Sangam Tamil poems > show warriors wearing kuDumi. Could this be a custom adapted by > Brahmins from Dravidians and later on, came to > be associated with Brahmanical culture? > Wearing kudumi is a very ancient custom.At least two figuirines from Harappa are seen to be sporting kudumi. Kudumi, generally speaking, is the hair on top of the head.Sometimes it is just a tuft of hair, kept at various spots on the scalp.The position of the tuft varies according to the caste, profession, social standing etc. of the wearer.It also varies in length and density. The kudumi is usually tied into a knot.It may be allowed to hang down . Or it may be tied tightly and held in position by a head gear or an ornament. According to its position, it is known as either "munkudumi"-front knot; "pakkak kudumi"-side lock; "pin kudumi'"-back knot; "uchchik kudumi"-top knot. The side knot was kept by the warriors.We can see the figures of RajaRaja Chola, Sundara Pandiya, and Tirumalai Naayak adorning side kudumies. The " mun kudumi" was kept by certain sects of Brahmins. The Choliya Brahmins were among the wearers. Now ,the Namboodris have it. There were some factors attached to the kudumi. During a combat, if the kudumi of one of the combatants were to come loose, the fight had to be stopped. A respite was given, during which the opponent could tie back his kudumi.Only after that, could the contest proceed. Even if the combatant had all the tactical advantages of the fight, he could not kill an opponent with unravelled hair. A victory thus attained was a very ignoble act and was an unchivalrous act , condemned by all. Even when running for life , the fugitive had to hold tight to his kudumi, which gave rise to the phrase," kudumiyai ppidiththuk kondu Oduthal" A totally reckless flight was called,"Thalai viri kOlamAy Oduthal". > Did Jains always shave off their head? When Tiruvalluvar says, > "mazhiththalum, nITTalum vENDaa" he seems to refer to the complete shaving > off by Jain monks and kuDumis of Samnyasis. > The Jaina nonks did not shave their head. In fact they were not allowed to. What they practiced was removal of hair. Just before the monk was initiated, the Neophyte had to remove his hair. He should not use a razor. He had to pluck off the hair with his fingers.All the hair to be plucked off in small tufts or a few strands of hair at a time. Therafter , whenever the hair had grown, they had to undergo the same ceremony. This ceremony was known as "LOCAM". They had to observe some penances before and during the ceremony. They also had to fast. They had to suffer the pain in silence. The Tamil Jainas are known to have repeated the phrase,"Ip dhuk;ap suk", during the procedure. The Tamil Saivites ,who always hated the Jainas with all their mind, heart and soul,looked down upon this practice with disdain. To them, a starved Jaina monk, in all solemnity, sitting and doing nothing else but occasionally plucking hair seriously, for days on end, was a subject of irresistible ridicule, scorn, and abuse. So, the Tamil Saivites attached a very degrading meaning to it and called it "Mayir pidunggudhal". If a person had nothing better to do or was procrastinating, they were asked,"mayirA pidungginAy?" ("Were you plucking hair?"). This phrase is still in use. Among the Hindu sanyasi orders, there were sanyasis of some orders who shaved their heads; there were others who grew their hair long. Those with the shaven heads were known as "mottai Andi"s; while the hairy ones were known as the "mayir Andi"s The Kapaalikas had uncut, unkept, unkempt, matted hair, and smeared their bodies with ash from the cremetotium, or burning ghats. So, they were known as "Poochchaandi"s (Poochchu=Smear; Poochchu+Aandi) During the course of time, these harmless terms which were used to denote the monks according to their appearances, became corrupted in meaning and took on a very derogatory nature. Even among the sanyasis of the same sect, there are different views and practices of growing or shaving off of the hair. E.g., The chief pontiff of the Saivite Madurai Aadheenam is well-shaven, whereas his counterpart, the Swamigal of Kundrakkudi sports long hair and beard. There must have been much controversy regarding this issue in those bygone days, that would have prompted Thiru Valluvar to have uttered, "malzhiththalum nIttalum vEndA...." I wonder... I just wonder .... How Thiru Valluvar would have looked? By the way, the chinese tale of tying down the churki to a nail in > the ceiling, during a long night of study for examinations is very current > in Tamil Nadu. I heard it 30 years ago in my village. I did not know > it has a chinese parellel. > > Like the Nambudiris, the ChOziya Brahmins were also having kuDumi > in the front (munkuDumi). Periyavaachchaan PiLLai, Vyakhyana Charavarti > in Srivaishnavism is a ChOziya Brahmin, if my memory is right. > There is a proverb "chOziyan kuDumi summa aaDaathu" - "The kuDumi of > the Brahmin from Chola country does not swing without a reason". > There is a nice story behind this proverb. If I find out, I will post. > > N. Ganesan I don't have a story for this. But I have a different story involving a Cholzhia Brahmin and his Munkudumi. There is an interesting episode involving the poet Kaala megam. One day, he was attending a feast. Next to him was a Cholzhia Brahmin with a side knot, eating away with gusto.Suddenly the munkudumi knot untied and fell onto the food. The cholzhia grabbed it with his left hand and shook it to dislodge the food crumbs sticking to it. The polluted crumbs feel on Kaalamegam. He let loose with a litany of curses which took the form of a verse. "Churukk avilzhndha munkudumi chOlzhiyA!ChOtrup PoRukk Ularndha vAyA! PulaiyA!- Thiruk Kudandhaik KOttAne! NAyE! KuranggE! unai orutththi POttALE vElaiyatup pOy!" O Cholzhiya of untied munkudumi! With a mouth of dried rice crumbs! Chandaalaa! Owl of Thiru Kudandhai! (Kumba konam) Dog! Monkey! A woman had dropped you into this earth, having had nothig better to do!." People are immortalised in poems for different reasons. The Siva of Kudumiyaa Malai is known as "Kudumi Naathar" There was a king during the Sangam Era , known as "pal yAga sAlai mudhu kudumip peru valzhudhi" JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia From davidi at wizard.net Sat Apr 19 09:10:10 1997 From: davidi at wizard.net (David R. Israel) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 04:10:10 -0500 Subject: Sandhya bhasa / Ulatbamsi / "Dakini script" Message-ID: <161227029819.23782.10556429176071633734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Scholiasts et alia -- you'll recall, some few weeks ago, the sandhyabhasa thread -- which originated from my forwarding to you'all a question posed by a participant in the Poetics (Univ. of Bufallo's) listserv. By way of refresher here -- the original writer, Gwen McVay, had noted: > In her introduction to the City Lights edition of Kerouac's /Scripture > of the Golden Sutra/, Anne Waldman sez, > > Sanskrit poetics speaks of /Sandhyabasha/ or > twilight speech, which is an "upside-down" > language harboring contradictions and > paradoxes. This elicited several Indology responses, for which (again) thanks. Just now, some (perhaps) clarifying notes have surfaced on said Poetics listserv, in form of Anne Waldman's -- and also Andrew Schelling's -- transcribed comments. (Earlier, I'd forwarded to Poetics some Indology posts arising in this thread -- hence the occasion for comment from Waldman/Schilling.) Herewith, I'm forwarding to you these new(er) remarks. Schilling, btw, is the chap who had done a likeable, recent vol. of translations from Mirabai, which little book Shambhala issued in handy mini-book form (in their Centaur Editions series). As you might know, Both Schilling and Waldman are involved in the Poetics wing of the Naropa Institute, in Boulder, Colorado (The Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics is -- if memory serves -- the proper departmental rubric). So, am forwarding this for any poss. gen. interest in such further elucidation of intentions, etc. If anyone happens to have remarks regarding new twists in the discussion -- e.g., the term "Ulatbamsi" -- I'd be pleased to hear them. For that matter, Waldman's passing mention of so-called "dakini script" seems of additional interest. Incidentally, the gentleman who usefully forwarded to Poetics the Waldman/Schilling remarks -- namely, a certain Anselm Hollo -- is a rather well-known poet in the (if this shd. suffice) contemp. experimentalist mode. With (as always) thanks, d.i. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:05:09 -0400 From: JDHollo at AOL.COM Subject: Sandhyabasha, from a while back This is Anselm Hollo. Colleagues Anne Waldman and Andrew Schelling (who promise to acquire e-mail capability *soon*) have asked me to forward the following in re the Sanskrit Poetics thread: (Anne:) Yes, the somewhat free use of the term "sandhyabasha" doesn't come particularly from a reading of Eliade and was never used or recorded to my knowledge by Kerouac or Ginsberg or other confreres. I had Andrew Schelling's expanded sense of the term and my own desire to present the idea of a secret code--perhaps intuited by other initiates (see the collaboration "Pull My Daisy". We are certainly aware of the literal definitions. Apologies for taking poetic liberties. This only encourages me to more dialogue with the scholars. "Ulatbamsi," more literally upsidedown is probably more accurate term. And of course there's "dakini script" which is what some poets think they're onto, not to mention the sense of poem as "terma," or hidden treasure. What do you think? Not on the Net yet; this intervention is courtesy of Anselm Hollo who alerted me to the discussion. (Andrew:) Confess I'm the source for Waldman's use of the Sanskrit term sandhyabasha. It is quite unlikely Kerouac ever encountered the term, certainly he never used it. Anne ws employing it as a way to line up Kerouac "goofiness" (playful duplicity in language) with older Tantric traditions. Her "upside down" skips across to another word, another tradition, ulatbamshi--which I know best from Charlotte Vaudeville's scholarly work on Kabir--who of course did not write in Sanskrit. I've tended to use the term sandhyabasha without much concern for getting right its original Sanskrit usage. This I hope is okay since nobody knows precisely what it meant in the old days. Hence debate about whether it is sandhya- (twilight) or sandha- (intentional) speech. I've tried to give it a contemporary spin: poetry as a place where language has the "conjoint" (lit. sandhya-) lights of day and night, waking & dreaming--goofiness or double-meaning--as opposed to secret initiate language. I gave my essay book published in Indi the title Twilight Speech. Its USA publication I'd hoped would have the same title, but Leslie Scalapino who published it was alerted by Philip Whalen to how close the term sounds to "twilight sleep" which he said is what women go into when they have spinals for Caesarean sections. So Leslie insisted we come up with another title. As for the Masson/Merwin book, it is a good collaboration. Masson's introduction particularly fine. The choice of poems is surprising--even inspired--though Merwin doesn't know the language so he can swim a bit with tone and meaning. Masson was once upon a time a terrific Sanskritist, but on occasions sloppy. Notice for instance the opening verse to his introduction, which is not in any Sanskrit anyone I know has been able to decode. Not even Masson when I took it to him and said what the hell's this. Said he thinks he got it from his guru. End of Waldman/Schelling transmission From cssetzer at mum.edu Sat Apr 19 21:47:52 1997 From: cssetzer at mum.edu (claude setzer) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 16:47:52 -0500 Subject: Apologies and Viruses Message-ID: <161227029827.23782.14164568762687370093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After my message saying that you could not get a virus from email, Ralph Bunker suggested that it is not very wise to make "challenging" statements like that because it encourages hackers to invent a way to do it. So I should revise my statement: normal "viruses" are not generally embedded in email in such a way that they automatically activate when you read your mail. However, it is definitely possible, and not even much of a challenge, to make readers uncomfortable, even by mistake. It is also possible to cause problems with specific email packages, that might have been damaged by some other (previously embedded but inactive) virus, etc. So we should not throw caution to the wind. One thing you should be very careful about is opening attached documents, especially ones ending in .exe or .com (PC) if you don't know what they are. On MAC systems, just about any file name can be trouble for an attached document. It also might be wise to turn off any accessories that automatically act on attached documents. The possibilities for trouble become even more complicated when technologies start to become available that allow transmission of sounds and movies within email. So...there is no need for paranoia, but some caution and alertness with regard to unusual email from unknown sources is always wise. Claude Setzer ---------- > From: JAYABARATHI > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Apologies to all > Date: Friday, April 18, 1997 11:38 PM > > Jan Brzezinski wrote: > > > > Apologies to all for wasting your time with a bogus virus alert. Thank you > > for wisening me up. > > Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. > > 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 > > (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 > > > I read something in the Malaysian papers recently about "Mail Bomb". > If you receive it, it is supposed to start off an unending stream of the > same word which just goes on repeating itself thus causing irreparable > damage.. > Is such a thing in existence? > > JAYABARATHI > > Sungai Petani > Kedah > Malaysia > From jehms at globalxs.nl Sat Apr 19 21:05:24 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 22:05:24 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: REQUEST:Cloning of sheep:Duplicate Souls?] Message-ID: <161227029824.23782.2182906707899047773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 19-apr-97 schreef Vidyasankar Sundaresan: >> cloning however, raises the question of the relation between life and >> soul...and maybe time and knowledge. >I don't think this is a very appropriate subject for this list, but here >are my $0.02 anyway. so i hope you'll forgive me if i don't answere all the interesting points you made. another reason is that since each darZana has it's own answere, the discussion could go on endlessly. >> and that excludes causal explanation. i want what i want because i want it. >> another question is wether we would call a soul an event or a thing. science >> can only create things and events. if a soul is no such thing, what else? >> i would suggest to define the soul as the meaning of a personal name, so the >> birds in the tree outside your window don't have souls, but your cat minny >has >> one. soul would then be a sociolinguistic phenomena. >This is just one step away from Descartes' argument about human beings >having souls. Are you saying that the sparrow on the tree does not have a >soul, but your parrot Polly has a soul, just because you gave her a name? >If it were that easy to define soul as you do, the soul's existence is >based on a whim, and is effectively removed both from the domain of >science and the domain of religion. Are you sure that is such a good >thing? descartes never could have seen the ego as a sociolinguistic phenomena since he believed it's a substance, 'something existing and being known by itself' (spinoza). my point is that a soul needs a community and a history (or karma if you want) in order to be aware of itself and to exist. to exist in a community means to have a name. think of the patiens of psychiatrist Oliver Sax who were cured of a kind of sleep during some 20 years. they found they couldn't live in this time because their memories stopped 20 years ago. some of them committed suicide others begged to stop the treatment. of course in everyday language people talk about souls as things hidden inside bodies, but i don't have to explain how problematic this view is. erik From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat Apr 19 23:41:26 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 22:41:26 -0100 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029832.23782.9012581072556466571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 18 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (mmdesh at umich.edu) me> From: Madhav Deshpande me> The coloring of the components is an interesting issue. For example, me> while most southern me> speakers cannot distinguish between vaiyaakara.na and me> vayyakara.na, notice me> the Pali veyyaakara.na. This is a sign of some old dialectal me> coloring. me> For Patanjali, the constituents of e and o are fused with me> each other me> (pra"sli.s.ta), while the constituents of ai and au are not me> so fused. me> These two are called samaahaaravar.na, groupings of vowels. But for me> Patanjali, the constituents of ai and au are viv.rtatara me> "more open" than me> their independent occurrences. This is, in my opinion, not me> the case with me> the modern south Indian pronunciation of ai and au, where the initial me> a seems, if anything, shorter and less open than the normal a. me> In any case, modern regional pronunciations of Sanskrit are more me> closely connected with me> the regional vernaculars, than with anything inherited from me> Patanjali. The southern pronunciation is still recognizable as samaahaaravar.na, but can we still say this in the case of the northern pronunciation? When "Maithi(li)" sounds like "Kathy", the first vowel is not a diphthong. The northern short 'a' is more closed, but also weaker than the southern, and this weakening of 'a' in the northern languages finally led to the final 'a' as well as medial 'a' in non-stressed syllables being dropped from current pronunciation altogether. I can imagine that a vowel which is so weak will leave no trace as a distinct element in what was originally a diphthong but later became a new single vowel with a distinct quality. This could explain the phenomenon described in Sukumar Sen's _A Comparative Grammar of Middle Indo-Aryan_ (par. 41), where he writes that ai and au became e and o in Prakrit, "pronounced probably as" open e and o. This is what we hear when Hindi-Urdu-speakers pronounce "hai" and "aur", which are written as if they are diphthongs. - RZ From jaybee at tm.net.my Sun Apr 20 05:46:53 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 22:46:53 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [tamil.net] Re: -indra] Message-ID: <161227029874.23782.6585194342123063731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 5761 URL: From bpj at netg.se Sat Apr 19 23:17:20 1997 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 01:17:20 +0200 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029830.23782.10447294714095327311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >---------- > >To change the topic :-), is there a difference in attitudes to things >Indian between those who learnt Sanskrit grammar from Whitney and >those who learnt it from McDonell or Renou (and then went straight >to Altindische Grammatik/Syntax for further information)? Just curious. > >--------- > > > > > >Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 What do you mean? I find Whitney one of the few linguists of his century that are still profitably readable. Grammarwise I find Whitney too chunky for reference, while McDonell has the right format. I don't know about attitudes to things Indian because of the grammars, but I have second thoughts about "Vedic Reader", to be sure... BPJ PS: please don't change the subject! I find Sanskrit usage -- for that's what it's about --, and especially post-classical Sanskrit, a neglected topic. The question is to what extent Sanskrit really functions as a code of the vernacular(s) of the time. Much to my surprise a Tamilian friend stated that he thought that the "grammar" -- i.e. syntax and usage -- of Sanskrit as he knows it agrees quite well with Tamil! Much Medieval Latin is just such a code on the respective vernaculars, and I suspect the same to be true of Sanskrit, though it is not appreciable to me, as I know practically no other Indic language than Sanskrit and Pali. ************************************************* * B.Philip Jonsson * * Editor, Translator (English <-> Swedish), * * Scholarly font-designer, Web-book designer * ************************************************* From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sun Apr 20 03:16:12 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 02:16:12 -0100 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029834.23782.17543754394826424819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 18 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao voe> The editor's introduction in the HSS I referred to earlier notes voe> that in some verses attributed to Bhart.rhari, sandhi is voe> occasionally not applied at the caesura. In the Kaavyas, sandhi voe> is applied between the padas, but not always in puraa.nas. Which is one reason why some modern authors call the language of the puraa.nas "corrupted" because of "errors in sandhi". But whether these are really to be considered "errors" is debatable in some cases, and could indeed reflect a manner of thinking about prosody that relaxes the application of sandhi rules in favour of a more natural pronunciation of verses instead of considering the metrical verse the unit of pronunciation. voe> In Tamil, for novels, prose works expounding some aspect of voe> Tamil literature or cilture etc, sandhi is applied only for voe> word/morpheme groups that form a whole, like words forming voe> a compound verb. Well, I suggest that you watch the behaviour of the suffix "-ku" and of words like "inta". And when do "words form a whole"? It may be that in contemporary Tamil prose, written sandhi is largely, though not completely, limited to the internal sandhi of compounds (though I call it "internal" here, we could debate over whether "words forming a compound verb" is an instance of internal or external sandhi). Unambiguous external sandhi is very much there in Kannada (both loopasandhi and aade;sasandhi), besides internal sandhi. > (If by "all" you also mean languages outside India: French is an obvious > example of a language with written sandhi.) voe> Between articles and associated nouns, between (some) prepositions voe> and voe> associated nouns etc. Do you mean to say that sandhi is applied in voe> print between the object and the verb, between the subject voe> and the voe> verb? My reading of French is for the most part limited to math voe> papers, but I don't even remember sandhi being applied in voe> print between adjective and the noun. Adjective and noun? - nouveau livre - nouvel arbre Perhaps you should go through some linguistic literature to see how linguists use the term 'sandhi', and that sandhi has not much to do with objects and verbs. > It is of course true that sandhi in > these languages has less far-reaching consequences, but it is there. voe> `less far-reaching' is to put it mildly. Are you suggesting, in your criticizing of other sandhis, that only Sanskrit has the "full variety", and that other languages (French, Italian, Portuguese, Tamil, Kannada, what else? Irish is another good one) do not have "real" sandhi? But then, who owns sandhi and decides what real sandhi is? (This is a rhetorical question, mind you. I am just being nasty. Ignore it.) - RZ From jaybee at tm.net.my Sun Apr 20 09:27:22 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 02:27:22 -0700 Subject: Change in Word Meanings Message-ID: <161227029903.23782.2441376699268784169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > 1/21/97 > > Change in Word Meanings > ************************ > > Some tamil words have acquired almost opposite meanings > over time. Examples: > > 1) n^ARRam - originally good smell, but now it signifies bad odour. > When Andal sings "karuppUram n^ARumO? kamalappU n^ARumO?", > the pleasant smell of lotus, camphor are referred. > > 2) mANTa - originally lofty (related to mANpu), > but now it is "dead/destroyed" > > "maaNTa en manaiviyoTu" - puRam song by picirAnthaiyAr. > > "uram mANTa thamizhar" - has double meanings. > > 3) kuppai - Originally, it seems to mean "heap/kuviyal" only. > There is a village by name, neRkuppai (heaps of paddy). > But now it means dirt/garbage. > > 4) iRantha - originally, crossing, ending etc., > In sangam poetry, "neTunjcuram iRanthAn" meant > crossing a large tract of wasteland. > > 5) kazhakam - originally, a gambling place. > Now, thamizhk kazhakam - tamil society etc., > > Can you please add some more Tamil words like this? > Any examples from Sanskrit? > N. Ganesan Dear Sir , Quite a number of words have changed their meanings in the course of time.Allow me add on. attavaNai - In the epigrahical parlance, it originally meant a royal diary. It contained all the things that the king had to do in a day and his appointments. The officer in charge of preparing the diary and reminding the king was also known as the "attavaNai". Later it meant a "list" Now its scope has further narrowed down to mean " a list of contents of a book. vetti vElai - It now means useless, unproductive work. Its earlier meaning was "voluntary work". As such all social service would fall into the category of "vetti vElai".No salary, no wages,nothing. The "vetti vElai kkAran'" had to bring his own equipment. sillaRai - This is a compound word.... sil+ iRai. In the medieval times, numerous taxes were imposed upon the people. Some taxes were miscellaneous and sundry. They had to paid in coins of the smallest denominations. in ude course, the word became a single word - "sillaRai". The tax part of it passed into oblivion. It just came to mean, coins of small denomination or small change. amar kaLam - This was the battle field. Now is different. In a kachchEri, a sangItha vidhvAn ," amarkkaLamAga ppAduthal" means singing with gusto. pilzhaiththal - Now we use it to mean escaping from death, or recovering from a dangeros illness. It meant, "wrong doing", or lapse, mistake etc. Appar"s Kanchi Thiruppadhigam - "nin paNi pilzhaikkil, puLiyam vaLArAl mOdhuvippAy, ugappAy, munivAy, kachchi EgambanE!" madaiyan - was originally a cook! Not a fool. algul - means the female genitalia. But also meant the "Groin". Thiru vOththUr thiruppadhigam of Sambandhar- "koLvIr algul Or kOvaNam" pasu - Was used to mean the whole bovine species in general. kOLaRu thiruppadhigam - Sambandhar "pala pala vEdamAgum para nAri bAgan pasu vErum engaL paraman" Now, only the female of the species -pasu kOlzhi - Stood for the domestic fowl in general. The male was known as "kolzhi chEval" Incidentally, the word "cheval" used to mean tha male member of any bird. Now , only the cockeral is addressed thus. vimAnam _ This stood for the Garbha Griha and the super structure above it. later it meant yhe superstructure alone. Mow, vimAnam has disappeared to give way to the "gOpuram". Arya - had a different meaning. Now we think of the Indo-Europeans,Caucasians race. " Der Fuehrer" took it to new heights. annam - meant any food. Now stands for cooked rice. summA - Just to type out what it really means is going to take two more days. It is NOT - repeat - NOT what it means. aRuvai - In tha Sangam, it meant "cloth" kULam - "Cereals. Madurai kkULa vAniganAr" JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani. Kedah. Malaysia. vetti vElai - From jaybee at tm.net.my Sun Apr 20 10:38:09 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 03:38:09 -0700 Subject: Change in Word Meanings Message-ID: <161227029909.23782.3432080898897368684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D.H. Killingley wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > > > Change in Word Meanings > > ************************ > > > > > 5) kazhakam - originally, a gambling place. > > Now, thamizhk kazhakam - tamil society etc., > > Was kazhakam _originally_ a gambling place, or was it a place of a ssembly According to the Tamil Lexicon, kalzhagam-(a)Assemly (b)Assemblky of poets (c)Public place of learning;college. (d)Place for practicing the use of arms;wrestling arena, boxing ring gymnasium, (e)Place gambling (f)Gambling JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani Kedah Malaysia. From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sun Apr 20 04:47:00 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 03:47:00 -0100 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029836.23782.1834593107176166678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 18 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> Subject: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' voe> (3) Technical and scholarly writing in English uses the passive more voe> often than colloquial talk, either in English or Tamil. Tamilians voe> seem to have no trouble with this. Why should they have trouble with voe> passive in Sanskrit? Because they are native Tamil-speakers and not Sanskrit-speakers. For more or less the same reason why they have problems with the past tense of Hindi transitive verbs, as I already mentioned. (See also Suniti Kumar Chatterjee on this subject in his _Indo-Aryan and Hindi_, if you insist on not believing me.) We are not talking about Raamaanuja and Appayyadiik.sita here, nor about modern Tamilians who have gone through so-called convent schools. The passive does not come naturally to Dravidian speakers. Apart from the authority of my own judgment, based on my own reading and speaking, I can also give you the following fragment, by a native Tamil speaker, after which I will not continue about this subject. Apart from specific history, all he says about Tamil holds good for Kannada too. This is reportedly from P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's "History of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D": ---begin quote--- As he imported the seven cases of Sanskrit into Tamil, Agattiyanaar is also responsible for importing the passive voice from Sanskrit. The passive is a definite inflection which all verbs, transitive or intransitive, undergo in Sanskrit. When transitive verbs become passive, it serves the purpose of making the object of the action the subject of the sentence, as when in English we say, "the lion was killed". This way of speaking is useful, when the subject of the action is not known or is not intended to be mentioned or when the object has to be emphasized. When intransitive verbs were given the passive inflection no such rational use can be found for it, but yet in Sanskrit the use of the passive intransitive is more idiomatic than that of the active, though no special meaning can be attached to the passive use; thus, "sa bhavati" is the same as "tena bhuuyate", only the latter cannot be translated into any other language, for "he is been" is absurd even in English, though it is allied to Sanskrit. Agattiyanar imposed the passive construction on Tamil; even he could not transfer the passive intransitive into Tamil, though he could translate "taa.dyate" into "a.dikkapa.t.taa_n", agglutinating the verb pa.du, to the past participle of a.di. a.dikkappa.du, if analysed into a.dikka [while (another man) beats], and pa.du [let (you) suffer] is seen to be opposed to the genius of Tamil, for compounding two verbs into one and assuming different persons to be the subjects of the two elements of the compound verb is violating both logic and grammar which is based on logic at least as far as Tamil is concerned. The true Tamil idiom for "undergoing beating" is a.dipa.du or a.diyu_n, where the first part of the compound is an abstract noun. Agattiyanaar invented this passive, because it is necessary for translating the Sanskrit passive verbs into Tamil and it proved so useful for men who think in Sanskrit and write in Tamil that Agattiyanaar's disciple, Tolkaappiyanaar, begins his grammar with a pseudo-passive "e_luttenapa.dupa". This pseudo-passive which no Tamil man ever uses in natural Tamil speech, but which was invented to enable Sanskritists to translate easily from Sanskrit into Tamil, has, in our days, become very fashionable in written Tamil, because we have learnt to think in English (which revels in passive forms) and write in Tamil. This barbarous form in "pa.du" mars every page of the Tamil translation of the Bible, and unfortunately the Tamil composition of Pandits." ---end quote--- - RZ From jaybee at tm.net.my Sun Apr 20 16:49:16 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 09:49:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [tamil.net] [Fwd: Re: Change in Word Meanings]] Message-ID: <161227029925.23782.5972557872357593385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To members of the list jaybee -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 5538 URL: From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Apr 20 17:36:40 1997 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 12:36:40 -0500 Subject: `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029846.23782.600460663354405941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > It would have been fair if the HSP teachers would warn their students in > advance ("if you read or hear something which you cannot recognize at all, it > may be one of the many things which we do not teach you," or something like > that). But it seems that they do not do so, or at least not explicitly and > clearly enough; and if this impression of mine is correct, then I think they > are committing a pedagogical blunder. With regard to the 'purpose' of the '10-day' HSP Sanskrit, there seems to be some variation of stated opinion by the proponents I have spoken to. Krishna Shastri (the 'founder' of HSP Sanskrit) has tried to make the case for 'simple Sanskrit' (as they term it) being not only a national link language for India, but an _international_ language as well (citing examples of how Sanskrit is being used in experiments with machine translation, etc). In other words, there does not seem to be much emphasis on using 'simple Sanskrit' as a first step in acquiring the more 'elaborated' Sanskrit (I think Basil Bernstein's opposition of 'elaborated' vs' 'restricted' codes may be useful here). However, when I visited Mattur (Karnataka) this summer, I got the impression that 'simple Sanskrit' was supposed to serve more as a launching board for further study (eventually leading to mastery of the 'elaborated' form of Sanskrit), ultimately enabling access to the canonical texts of the Sanskrit tradition. > me> What seems most interesting is that different local > me> varieties of simplified Sanskrit make different choices for > me> their subsets. > > This is a serious topic for study, which seems to have been relatively > neglected till now: not only for contemporary Sanskrit, but for medieval > Sanskrit too. Several studies have appeared about varieties of medieval Latin, > but I have not seen so many thorough studies about varieties of later Sanskrit, > apart from Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I suspect that it should be possible to > give well-founded descriptions of regional varieties, as in the case of > medieval Latin, for instance along the lines indicated by Vidhyanath Rao > (influence of local Prakrits etc.). When a Sanskrit text contains e.g. Kannada > words, it is clear where the text is from; but more interesting would be the > frequency of / preference for certain genuinely old Sanskrit words / > constructions (such as I suggested in my analysis of the penchant for -tavant). > Such descriptions will be useful tools for literary historians. > > - Robert Zydenbos > I think especially pertinent here are some of the manuals for spoken Sanskrit produced in classical India. For example, in Richard Solomon's (1982; IIJ 24:13-25) study of the _Ukti-vyakti-prakara.na_ he shows how the Sanskrit promoted by DAmodara is "often no more that Old Kosali with Sanskrit endings, and which may be regarded as an artificially regularized and exaggerated form of a current vernacular-influenced Sanskrit" (p. 21). What are we to make of the various attempts throughout Indian cultural history (the UVP is c. 12th century or so? Also see Deshpande's essay on the GirvA.navanmaNJjarI, a 16th-17th c.(?) manual of spoken Sanskrit) to promote an explicitly 'spoken Sanskrit,' which always seems to be informed by 'vernacular' sensibilities? Perhaps this isn't stated quite right, but what I'm trying to say is that the current HSP/Sanskrita Bharati 'simple Sanskrit' is, in some ways, a different face on a familiar phenomenon. Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago p.s. In response to Vidhyanath Rao's change of topic, my own experience was that my first Sanskrit professor started us out with Gonda and then Whitney, which ended up entirely crippling me: by the end of a year of Sanskrit study, I could sit down with a fairly simple text (e.g., the BhagavadgItA), and with the assitance of a dictionary and Whitney's grammar, read, but I had no internalized knowledge of Sanskrit grammar, and definitely no knowledge of the grammatical terminology used by the Sanskrit tradition. Over the next few years, I had to re-learn everything (and I'm still not entirely comfortable with it, as you can perhaps see). From Palaniappa at aol.com Sun Apr 20 16:47:18 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 12:47:18 -0400 Subject: Passive in Dravidian (Was: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit') Message-ID: <161227029842.23782.17649508596488931821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-17 15:42:02 EDT, srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) writes: << Robert, I am reminded of this striking paragraph in P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's "History of the Tamils: from the earliest times to 600 A.D." (Madras, C. Coomarasawmy Naidu, 1929)... _________________ As he imported the seven cases of Sanskrit into Tamil, Agattiyanar is also responsible for importing the passive voice from Sanskrit. The passive is a definite inflection which all verbs, transitive or intransitive, undergo in Sanskrit. When transitive verbs become passive, it serves the purpose of making the object of the action the subject of the sentence, as when in English we say, "the lion was killed". This way of speaking is useful, when the subject of the action is not known or is not intended to be mentioned or when the object has to be emphasized. When intransitive verbs were given the passive inflection no such rational use can be found for it, but yet in Sanskrit the use of the passive intransitive is more idiomatic than that of the active, though no special meaning can be attached to the passive use; thus, "saH bhavati" is the same as "tena bhUyate", only the latter cannot be translated into any other language, for "he is been" is absurd even in English, though it is allied to Sanskrit. Agattiyanar imposed the passive construction on Tamil; even he could not transfer the passive intransitive into Tamil, though he could translate "tADyate" into "aDikkapaTTAn", agglutinating the verb paDu, to the past participle of aDi. aDikkapaDu, if analysed into aDikka [while (another man) beats], and paDu [let (you) suffer] is seen to be opposed to the genius of Tamil, for compounding two verbs into one and assuming different persons to be the subjects of the two elements of the compound verb is violating both logic and grammar which is based on logic at least as far as Tamil is concerned. The true Tamil idiom for "undergoing beating" is aDipaDu or aDiyu_n, where the first part of the compound is an abstract noun. AgattiyanAr invented this passive, because it is necessary for translating the Sanskrit passive verbs into Tamil and it proved so useful for men who think in Sanskrit and write in Tamil that AgattiyanAr's disciple, TolkAppiyanAr, begins his grammar with a pseudo-passive "ezhuttenapaDupa". This pseudo-passive which no Tamil man ever uses in natural Tamil speech, but which was invented to enable Sanskritists to translate easily from Sanskrit into Tamil, has, in our days, become very fashionable in written Tamil, because we have learnt to think in English (which revels in passive forms) and write in Tamil. This barbarous form in "paDu" mars every page of the Tamil translation of the Bible, and unfortunately the Tamil composition of Pandits." >> I think P.T.S. Iyengar was overreacting to the inelegant uses of the 'paTu' form. V.S. Rajam cites Robert Caldwell as saying, "None of the Dravidian dialects possesses any passive particle or suffix, or any means of expressing passivity by direct inflectional change; the signification of the passive voice is nevertheless, capable of being expressed in a variety of ways. "The Dravidian languages, indeed, are destitute of passive properly so called, and therefore, resist every effort to bring paD-u into general use. Such efforts are constantly being made by foreigners, who are accustomed to passives in their own tongues, and fancy that they cannot get on without them; but nothing sounds more barbarous to the Dravidian ear than the unnecessary use of paTu as a passive auxiliary. It is only when combined with nouns its use is thoroughly allowable." (A Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, 534) Caldwell and P.T. S Iyengar are partly wrong. A Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry (AGCTP) describes three ways passive stems are formed in Tamil. 1. using bare verb stem 2. nominal stem+uN/uRu/paTu 3. infinitive ending with (kk)a+paTu/peRu It is (3) which has led to these misunderstandings. (In fact (3) occurs in poems by poets who did not have to think in Sanskrit. But this form has also given rise to inelegant uses where a simple active form could have been used.) What has not been realized is that (3) also can be modelled as nominal stem + verbal noun suffix ('al'/'kkal') + paTu/peRu where the puNarcci process will lead to the following nIGku + al > nIGkal nIGkal+paTu > nIGkaRpaTu (literary Tamil) nIGkaRpaTu (literary Tamil) > nIGkappaTu (colloquial Tamil) It can be translated as "to experience/undergo the action of being left behind" When the colloquial form is accepted in the literary tradition, what we have is a form which superficially looks like an infinitive. When this process is understood correctly, (2) and (3) are found to be essentially the same, i.e., verbal noun+a verb signifying 'to experience/undergo'. The familiarity with the superficial formulaic aspect related to the infinitive without proper semantic understanding of the process led to some indiscriminate uses of (3). Compare nI nayantu uraiyappaTTOL (aiGkuRunURu 370.3) nI nayantu uRainarkkum (puRanAnURu 163.1) In modern puranic discourses they often use the form 'atAkappaTTatu' which can be better rendered as 'atAvatu'. But using passive per se cannot be said to be said to be difficult for Dravidians. (2) is often used even by children. I remember a childhood song which I learnt not from any formal text but only from other kids. It goes like this. OTTaip pallu caGkarA oru vITTukkum pOkAtE Appam vAGkit tiGkAtE aTipaTTuc cAkAtE It can be translated as' Hey, CaGkarAn who has some teeth missing Do not go to any (other) house Do not get Appam (rice pan cake) and eat Do not get beaten up and die Now, I have no idea as to how Sanskrit handles passive or what the semantics are in Sanskrit. Regards S. Palaniappan From jagat at polyinter.com Sun Apr 20 17:07:35 1997 From: jagat at polyinter.com (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 13:07:35 -0400 Subject: asya diinasya prastaava.h Message-ID: <161227029844.23782.1584401685336258058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Parama=zraddheya-vidvad-vare.su, Bhavataa.m cara.ne.su mama ko.ti-namaskaara-puurvaka.m nivedanam idam -- Atredaanii.m katipayaani dinaani sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saa-vyavahaara-vi.saye bahuuni vaakyaani prayojitaani. ekasmincit patre paazcatya-dezaanaa.m pa.n.ditammanyaanaa.m bhaaratiiya-bhaa.saa-paarangatyaabhaavam samaalocya kincid alikhat Zrii-Zaidenbos-mahaazaya.h. Etat sarva.m mayaa samarthitam. Parantv aham api abhyaasa-suyogaabhaavaat aasta-sa.msk.rta-jnaano bhavitum prav.rtta.h. Ato mama manasiidam uditam : nanu kasmaan sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saayaa.m paraspara.m samaalocaniiya.m? Tatra kaanicit niyamaani avazya.m kara.niiyaa.ni. (1) Nanu vaya.m sarve vidvad-abhimaanina.h. Parantu asmaasu taaratamyam eva vartate. Baalaanaam utsaahanaaya pa.n.dita-vinodanaaya ca sarve.saam abhyaasaartha.m api e.saa kalpanaa. Asmaaka.m likhite.su do.saa anivaryaa. Bhavatu. Te do.saa anyair aprakaazyam eva sa.mzodaniiyaa.h, yan na kasyaapi lajjaa vaa utsaaha-bhanga.h syaat. (2) Aadhunika-sa.mjnaa.h zabdaa.h katha.m svaruupe sthaapaniiyaa.h? Atra puurva-k.rta-vivaade dezika-vibhedaa kincit kincid aalocyanta. Bhaarate bhinna-dezika-bhaa.sasu aadhunika-yantraadi-sa.mjnaa sa.msk.rta-tat-sama-zabda-ruupaa bhuutvaapi vibhinnaa.h santi. Atra ka.h pramaa.na iti vivecaniiyam. Mama sakaaze na ko'pi pramaa.niko 'dyatano vaa aangla-sa.msk.rta-kozo labhyate. Tasmaat 'television' iti duura-darzanam bhavati yad vaa .televizanam iti mayaa na jnaatam. Ni.hsandeham asmaabhir nava-koza eva pravartitavyam. Etad eva samaalocaniiyam. Anye dezika-zabda-bhedaa api avazyam eva prakaazyam aalocaniiyaa vivaadyaaz ca. Dezika-bhedaa d.rzyantaam iti sarve 'baadhitaa.h likhantv iti. (3) [Ga.naka-]yantraanurodhena ak.saraantariikara.nam anivaaryam. Upasthita-mahaanubhavair vividha-maargaa anus.rtaa.h. Yat sukha-sambodhyam avyabhicaara.m ca tat prayojyam. Yat sukha-bodhya.m tat vivaada-vi.saya.m na syaad iti sp.rhaa. Viraama-cihnaadi-likhanam sandhi-prayogaz ca yathaa-sukham kriyataam. (4) Puurva-suuribhi.h sthaapita.h sa.msk.rta-prayoga.h, aadhunika-sarala-sa.mskr.ta-prayogo vaa, sarva udaara-cittaanaa.m pa.n.dita-varaa.naa.m sahana-yogya.h. Na bhetavyam apakva-sa.msk.rta-jnaanena kenacid apiiti. Atra sarve na sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saa-vijnaa iti jnaatam. Nanv idam p.rthak-taalikaayaam (list) kara.niiyam ity api vivecyam. Ki.m vicaaryataa.m tatra-bhavadbhi.h? Aha.m sa.msk.rta-bhaa.saa.m banga-deze pa.thitavaan. Tatra vai.s.nava-kaavya.m darzana.m ca paa.thyam abhuut mama. [Uccaara.na-prasange bangadezasya ai-sthaane oy iti rephaante vyanjana-var.nasya-dvikara.nam ity api na kenacid ullikhitam.] Maat.r-bhaa.saa aangla-bhaa.saa eva. Asya bhaa.saa-bhrama-sahasrasya janasya savinaya-pra.naty-ante svaak.saram, Jan. Jan K. Brzezinski, Ph.D. 1262 rue St-Joseph, Val-David, QC J0T 2N0 (819) 322-3382, 322-6146 From aditya at smart1.net Sun Apr 20 14:23:17 1997 From: aditya at smart1.net (aditya at smart1.net) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 14:23:17 +0000 Subject: Taliban threaten to blow up Buddha statue Message-ID: <161227029840.23782.7667580080736032236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GHORBAND VALLEY, April 17: The Taliban have warned that they will demolish a massive and ancient statue of Buddha if they advance into enemy territory in central Afghanistan. Dubbing the famous cliff carving "unIslamic," a senior Taliban commander on Wednesday issued a simple warning about the fate of the "Big Buddha": "We will blow it up." Frontline commander Abdul Wahid told journalists the spectacular 55 metre high image would be dynamited if they managed to break through a rival faction's lines, 10 km from here. He said the carving - set in a huge niche in a sheer cliff face - was unIslamic as it represented an "infidel" religion. It also bears a human image, which is forbidden by Islam. The commander also denied the site - which has been the focus of major restoration and archaeological work - was of any scientific or historical value, and appeared determined to destroy it. "Our religion is a heavenly religion and we have no need of these things here," Wahid said. The site - once a key post on the ancient Silk Road, a major trading route - lies in the Hezb-i-Wahdat faction stronghold of Bamian province, a mere 60 km west of current Taliban positions. The huge white-stone statue was built in the third or fourth centuries after Christ, possibly by King Kanishka head of the now obscure Buddhist Kushan empire who came from nearby central Persia and conquered large parts of south and central Asia, including Afghanistan, archaeologists say. Early Buddhist pilgrims flocked to the site to pay homage to the statue for about four hundred years until the seventh century when new invaders brought Islam to the area long after the Kushans had faded away. The statue was, according to legend, originally ornately decorated with gold and precious stones which were looted after the statue fell into disrepair. Little appears to have been written about the Buddha for many years, until it was partially preserved by French archaeologists in the 1920s and 1930s. The "Big Buddha" then became one of the symbols of Afghanistan when the country opened up to international tourism in the 1960s and 70s, before civil war tore the country apart. In addition to the large statue, the site also boasts a slightly smaller carving 38 meters high, and is hailed by scholars as Afghanistan's most impressive archaeological treasure. A maze of caves and tunnels crammed with other Buddhist carvings and paintings were also carved into the cliff face following the initial third to forth century construction of the figures. An unexploded rocket-propelled grenade is now embedded in the chest of the large Buddha, reportedly fired by a pre-Taliban fighter during the war against the Soviet. But successive Afghan regimes seem to have been unconcerned about harbouring massive Buddhist relics in the highly-conservative country.-AFP ? DAWN Group of Newspapers, 1997 Have a peaceful and prosperous day. Aditya Mishra Phone/FAX (954)746-0442 (Must leave message on voice mail) mailto:a018967t at bc.seflin.org or mailto:aditya at smart1.net homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya Thought of the day: Everyone has the right...to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. --- Article 19, Universal Declaration of Human Rights From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Sun Apr 20 22:53:50 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 16:53:50 -0600 Subject: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul Message-ID: <161227029848.23782.13470510934221382077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 4/20/97 Re: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul ************************************ As illustrated by Dr. S. Palaniappan, 'paa' in Dravidian refers to both 'warp' and 'song'. If the sanskrit term 'tantra' is related to 'tantu' whose main meaning is 'warp', (I agree. It can generically refer to the whole art of weaving/spinning sometimes), there seems to be connection between 'paa' of dravidian and 'tantu/tantra' of sanskrit. Are there any IE cognates between words meaning 'warp' and 'songs/verses' as well? Sanskrit and Tamil have one word to denote both. The metaphor of relating weaving to composing a text can arise in any culture. I am reminded of the American usage, "may be in Timbuktu". But the 'warp' and 'text' meanings in 'paa' or `tantra` do not seem like a mere coincidence. I like Palaniappan's explanation that 'nuval' originally meant 'fine web' of spiders. From Nature, Dravidians got the clue and used 'nuul/nuval' also for composing texts. That is why, `nuul/nuval' refers to both 'thread' and 'text'. Similarly, in Sanskrit also, suutra (related to 'sIv-', 'syU') means 'thread' as well as 'text'. Are there any other languages where some term from weaving industry and text are identical? Again, Sanskrit and Tamil use a single word to denote 'thread' and 'text'. Any thoughts, N. Ganesan From thompson at jlc.net Mon Apr 21 02:37:15 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 97 22:37:15 -0400 Subject: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul Message-ID: <161227029850.23782.9822214682680020162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >4/20/97 > >N. Ganesan wrote, and so I will try to reply: > [snip] > >If the sanskrit term 'tantra' is related >to 'tantu' whose main meaning is 'warp', (I agree. It can >generically refer to the whole art of weaving/spinning sometimes), >there seems to be connection between 'paa' of dravidian >and 'tantu/tantra' of sanskrit. We need to determine *what kind* of connection there is between these terms. It seems to me that it is not valid to jump from the assumption of a semantic connection [or similarity] to a genetic connection. The semantic similarity is obvious, and is not disputed. But I would dispute the assumption of a genetic connection, unless you can provide *specific* evidence of such. > >Are there any IE cognates between words meaning 'warp' >and 'songs/verses' as well? Sanskrit and Tamil have one >word to denote both. There are *many* such in IE languages, and I have cited them already. To cite just one again: see Avestan vaf-, = "to sing, to weave". Bartholomae cites the Modern Persian form bAfad = "he weaves", whereas the Old Avestan forms of this root = "sing, song, etc." Compare Skt. ubh-, vabh-, clearly a root extension of u-, ve-, already cited. > >The metaphor of relating weaving to composing a text >can arise in any culture. I am reminded of the American usage, >"may be in Timbuktu". But the 'warp' and 'text' meanings >in 'paa' or `tantra` do not seem like a mere coincidence. Maybe, maybe not. But how can we determine whether this semantic association, attested elsewhere in IE, the Near East, and Africa, is NOT coincidence? Surely, there is equally strong evidence that the metaphor is widespread in IE. It seems natural to assume that the Vedic RSis thought that speech was like weaving because *it is* like weaving, and because IE poets had been thinking so for millennia. > >I like Palaniappan's explanation that 'nuval' originally >meant 'fine web' of spiders. From Nature, Dravidians >got the clue and used 'nuul/nuval' also for composing texts. That is why, >`nuul/nuval' refers to both 'thread' and 'text'. >Similarly, in Sanskrit also, suutra (related to 'sIv-', 'syU') >means 'thread' as well as 'text'. See earlier reference to UrNavAbhi = "spider". -vAbhi derives from the same root as Avestan vaf-, cited above, meaning "to sing". Clearly, Indo-Iranians, without any necessary assistance from Dravidians, also "got the clue from Nature". >Are there any other languages where some term from weaving industry and >text are identical? >Again, Sanskrit and Tamil use a single word to denote thread' and 'text'. > I could cite [already have cited] Indo-European, Semitic, and Niger-Congo language families, if anyone is interested. As I have already said privately to S. Palaniappan: "Let me say first of all that I have sympathy and respect for the industry with which you attack this problem. In general, I am persuaded [as most Vedicists are, I think] that Dravidian has left its mark on Vedic, even at the earliest attested stage [i.e., the RV]. So our disagreement does not involve this general point." Our disagreement arises when it comes to specifics. Best wishes, George Thompson From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Apr 21 08:13:07 1997 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 01:13:07 -0700 Subject: looking for article Message-ID: <161227029870.23782.7208379448468197809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Our library does not hold the volume mentioned below, so I am asking the esteemed members of this list whether anybody is in possession of a copy of the following article and would be so kind as to mail one to me: V. Varadachari: Conditions for the Rise of Perceptual Cognition. Prof. Suryya K Bhuyan Commemoration Volume, ed. M. Neog and H.K. Barpujari, Gauhati 1966, pp.248-251. TIA, -- Birgit Kellner Department of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 21 11:15:15 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 07:15:15 -0400 Subject: on vyaakaraNa-kauNDinya Message-ID: <161227029857.23782.13526077450646227465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The only text ascribed to Kau.n.dinya which comes within the broad category of grammatical/phonetic literature is Kau.n.dinya"sik.saa. This is included in Vedavik.rtilak.sa.nasa.mgraha edited by K.V. Abhyankar and G.V. Devasthali, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune 1978. There is no reason to believe that this Kau.n.dinya has anything to do with the Kau.n.dinya mentioned in the Buddhist texts. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, SUZUKI Takayasu wrote: > > Dear Members of the list, > > Can you give me any information about vyaakaraNa-kauNDinya? > (e.g. his biography or texts or books reffering to him) > > I think he might be a Brahmanic grammarian, but it seems that some > buddhist-texts take him to be aajJaata-kauNDinya (one of the first > disciples of Buddha). > This interests me very much. > > > Best Regards > > > ************************************************************* > SUZUKI Takayasu @ Inst. of Oriental Culture, Univ. of Tokyo > (Research Associate) > E-mail: suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp > ************************************************************* > > > From nelsond at pobox.upenn.edu Mon Apr 21 12:37:25 1997 From: nelsond at pobox.upenn.edu (David N Nelson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 08:37:25 -0400 Subject: Address Request Message-ID: <161227029858.23782.16207335046473109898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to the Directory of Indian Publishers and Distributors, 1994 the entry is: Asia Publishing House Calicut Street Ballard Estate Bombay 400 001 There was not a phone number listed. David Nelson South Asia Bibliogapher University of Pennsylvania > > I am looking for the whereabouts of Messrs. Asia Publishing House, Bombay. > > If anyone happens to know the address, please inform me. I understand that this publishing house has a > representation in Delhi and Calcutta also. > > Thanks in Advance, > Sreenivasa Nittala > > > From sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de Mon Apr 21 09:23:22 1997 From: sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de (Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 09:23:22 +0000 Subject: Address Request Message-ID: <161227029853.23782.16602621773286447781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the whereabouts of Messrs. Asia Publishing House, Bombay. If anyone happens to know the address, please inform me. I understand that this publishing house has a representation in Delhi and Calcutta also. Thanks in Advance, Sreenivasa Nittala From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Mon Apr 21 14:15:57 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 10:15:57 -0400 Subject: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES: Invitation to Subscribe Message-ID: <161227029860.23782.5272998123723206654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES in your institution's library? If not, perhaps it should be. The articles and book reviews appearing in INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES are timely, essential reading for colleagues and students throughout the social sciences and humanities. Please take a few minutes to recommend INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES to your librarian for acquisition. (Your institution library depends upon their faculty for recommendations before purchasing.) Librarians may order sample copies. ISSN: 1022-4556 Editor: Sushil Mittal Publisher: World Heritage Press, Journals Division, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 FAX (514) 771 2776 Sponsor: International Institute of India Studies Frequency: Three times a year (in April, August, December) Volume 1: 1997 Article selection: Peer review Subscription rates: N. America Rest of World Institutions $150.00 $156.00 Individuals $60.00 $66.00 Students $30.00 $36.00 Canadians, please add 7% GST as follows: $10.20 institutions, $4.10 individuals, $2.10 students Orders from outside Canada must be paid in US dollars. For further details on the INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES please visit its homepage at http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Mon Apr 21 09:40:51 1997 From: w.behr at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Wolfgang Behr) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 10:40:51 +0100 Subject: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul Message-ID: <161227029855.23782.16013601515060766982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: | Similarly, in Sanskrit also, suutra (related to 'sIv-', 'syU') | means 'thread' as well as 'text'. Are there any other languages | where some term from weaving industry and text are identical? | Again, Sanskrit and Tamil use a single word to denote | 'thread' and 'text'. Classical Chinese has a word jing1 (< Old Chinese *ke:ng), regularly used for "classic" or "canonical text", which originally meant sth. like "warp" or "thread" during the Archaic period. Other Classical usages include "rule", "norm", "law"; "to regulate", "to plan"; "to pass through" etc. The word is written with a character that consists of a phonetico-semantic element that is usually explained as a depiction of a "hand-loom" by modern paleo- graphers, and a (semantic) siginific meaning "silk" or "thread", which was added to the original character during the early classical period. It comes as no surprise then, that jing1 is used as _the_ standard translation of Skt. suutra in Chinese Buddhist texts, although it occasionally stands for prava- cana, pi.taka, nirde"sa, upade"sa, even "saastra as well. For a (_semantic_) comparison of the Sanskrit and Chinese concepts see (inter alia) Corless, Roger J. (1975) "The meaning of ching (su1tra?) in Buddhist Chinese", Journal of Chinese Philosophy 3: 67-72 Victor Mair (1990) "File on the Track and Dough[tiness]", Sino-Platonic Papers 20: 6-68 Best wishes, Wolfgang Behr PS: George Thompson wrote on the same subject: |I could cite ... Semitic, and Niger-Congo language |families, if anyone is interested. I am, if it is not too much of a hassle for you. Thanks for taking the time to answer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wolfgang Behr Sinologie, J.W. Goethe-Universitaet, Dantestr.4-6, P.O.B. 111 932, D-60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany Tel.: (o) +49-69-798-22852, Fax: +49-69-798-22873 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp Mon Apr 21 03:21:52 1997 From: suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (SUZUKI Takayasu) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 12:21:52 +0900 Subject: on vyaakaraNa-kauNDinya Message-ID: <161227029851.23782.4019493140285873056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the list, Can you give me any information about vyaakaraNa-kauNDinya? (e.g. his biography or texts or books reffering to him) I think he might be a Brahmanic grammarian, but it seems that some buddhist-texts take him to be aajJaata-kauNDinya (one of the first disciples of Buddha). This interests me very much. Best Regards ************************************************************* SUZUKI Takayasu @ Inst. of Oriental Culture, Univ. of Tokyo (Research Associate) E-mail: suzuki at culture.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp ************************************************************* From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Apr 21 21:48:01 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 15:48:01 -0600 Subject: Change in Word Meanings Message-ID: <161227029864.23782.4233183456527022343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1/21/97 Change in Word Meanings ************************ Some tamil words have acquired almost opposite meanings over time. Examples: 1) n^ARRam - originally good smell, but now it signifies bad odour. When Andal sings "karuppUram n^ARumO? kamalappU n^ARumO?", the pleasant smell of lotus, camphor are referred. 2) mANTa - originally lofty (related to mANpu), but now it is "dead/destroyed" "maaNTa en manaiviyoTu" - puRam song by picirAnthaiyAr. "uram mANTa thamizhar" - has double meanings. 3) kuppai - Originally, it seems to mean "heap/kuviyal" only. There is a village by name, neRkuppai (heaps of paddy). But now it means dirt/garbage. 4) iRantha - originally, crossing, ending etc., In sangam poetry, "neTunjcuram iRanthAn" meant crossing a large tract of wasteland. 5) kazhakam - originally, a gambling place. Now, thamizhk kazhakam - tamil society etc., Can you please add some more Tamil words like this? Any examples from Sanskrit? N. Ganesan From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Apr 21 18:04:44 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 20:04:44 +0200 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029862.23782.6781916240754149137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:46 17.04.97 BST, you wrote: > >Dear Members of the list, > >A student is looking for literature on the influence of English on modern >Hindi, especially on gender attribution to English loan words in Hindi and >on borrowing of verbs from English. Here, in our library, we could only >find works like "Indianization of English". Any help will be appreciated. > I don't know about any literature on the subject, but if everything else fails, you could compare the Hindi and the English version of India Today. That might give you few hints. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Tue Apr 22 01:12:53 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 03:12:53 +0200 Subject: more Gita recordings (sigh) Message-ID: <161227029865.23782.11073446294876715298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone is maintaining a canonical list of Gita recordings I can mention but I don't particularly recommend, something I've just heard, a musical rendition of Chapters 12 & 15 by Yesudas, music by Rangasami Parthasarathy (who apparently also set Chapter 2 elsewhere) (Oriental Records CD 114) Couldn't those guys find anything other than the Gita to in- flict their bad taste on? From thompson at jlc.net Tue Apr 22 12:42:01 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 08:42:01 -0400 Subject: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul Message-ID: <161227029879.23782.5739145249071973155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wolfgang Behr wrote: >Classical Chinese has a word jing1 (< Old Chinese *ke:ng), regularly used >for "classic" or "canonical text", which originally meant sth. like "warp" >or "thread" during the Archaic period. Other Classical usages include "rule", >"norm", "law"; "to regulate", "to plan"; "to pass through" etc. The word >is written with a character that consists of a phonetico-semantic element >that is usually explained as a depiction of a "hand-loom" by modern paleo- >graphers, and a (semantic) siginific meaning "silk" or "thread", which was >added to the original character during the early classical period. It comes >as no surprise then, that jing1 is used as _the_ standard translation of Skt. >suutra in Chinese Buddhist texts, although it occasionally stands for prava- >cana, pi.taka, nirde"sa, upade"sa, even "saastra as well. >For a (_semantic_) comparison of the Sanskrit and Chinese concepts see >(inter alia) > > Corless, Roger J. (1975) > "The meaning of ching (su1tra?) in Buddhist Chinese", > Journal of Chinese Philosophy 3: 67-72 > > Victor Mair (1990) > "File on the Track and Dough[tiness]", > Sino-Platonic Papers 20: 6-68 Thank you very much for these references, which appear to confirm the point that the association of weaving and speech is by no means "unique" to the Indian sub-continent. > >PS: George Thompson wrote on the same subject: > |I could cite ... Semitic, and Niger-Congo language > |families, if anyone is interested. > I am, if it is not too much of a hassle for you. Thanks > for taking the time to answer. > The Semitic reference is to the Hebrew root Aleph-Resh-Beth, "to weave", which was cited by someone in a private e-mail, in response to a discussion on another list. I do not have solid text references yet [they have been requested], but for the time being I can cite Driver's "Hebrew English Lexicon of the Old Testament", pp. 70-71, which cites Is. 59.5 for the metaphor "weave a spider's web" = "intrigue". When more explicit collocations surface I will forward them. Dogon, a Niger-Congo language of Mali, attests the metaphor, speech = weaving, in a way that is remarkably suggestive of the Vedic set of metaphors. The Dogon term "soy" refers to woven material on the one hand and "it is the spoken word" on the other [cf. Griaule, already cited, p.28]. To corroborate this, compare Dieterlen: "chez les Dogon, le mot *so* signifie 'parole'. Le mot *soy*, qui de'signe le ve^tement , signifie litte'ralement 'c'est la parole'. Tout le monde le sait. Le tissage est conside're' comme un entrelacs de 'paroles'. L'homme nu est diffe'rent de l'homme habille', car ce dernier est ve^tu de 'parole'...." ["Syste`mes de Connaissance" in *African Systems of Thought: Studies presented and discussed at the 3rd International African Seminar in Salisbury, December 1960*, ed. M Fortes & G. Dieterlen, 1965, Oxford Univ. Press]. More detailed discussion can be found in Calame-Griaule: "Ethnologie et langage: La parole chez les Dogon" [1965, Gallimard], which unfortunately I no longer have access to. I would not be surprised if the metaphor appeared also among, say, the Navaho of No. America, or in Indonesia, cultures which exhibit refined weaving traditions laden with elaborate symbolisms. Best wishes, George Thompson From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Tue Apr 22 12:57:51 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 08:57:51 -0400 Subject: India's role in the history of linguistics Message-ID: <161227029880.23782.10414648049908341116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Marcin Lewandowski wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > I am looking for general materials related to India's contribution to the > study of language. So far I have found one book carrying the above-mentioned > title, namely "The Word and the World : India's contribution to ..." by the > late Prof. B. K. Matilal. Is this book accessible on the net in any > readable form(abstract, or summary, etc., etc.)? I would be extremely > grateful for any other valuable links to relevant websites. > Thank you in advance > Best regards > > Marcin Lewandowski > Institute of Linguistics > Adam Mickiewicz University > Poznan, Poland see Coward, Howard. 1980. _Sphota theory of language: A philosophical analysis_. Varanasi: Motilal Banarsidass. sushil mittal From mkropf at theol.unibe.ch Tue Apr 22 08:41:18 1997 From: mkropf at theol.unibe.ch (Marianna Kropf) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 10:41:18 +0200 Subject: List on "Fold threatre, puppetry, street-plays and the like" Message-ID: <161227029869.23782.11990019303598358226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:37 22.3.97 GMT, you wrote: >From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. > > E-MAIL TRANSMISSION > > >Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2597-96 March 21, 1997 > > >To: > >INDOLOGY > Please could you transmit the above indicated book list to my email account - thank you! Marianna Kropf University of Berne, Science of Religion > > > > > > **************************************************************************** ****** Marianna Kropf Universit?t Bern Institut f?r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 32 CH-3000 Bern 9 From andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca Tue Apr 22 18:19:38 1997 From: andersle at leroy.cc.uregina.ca (Leona Anderson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 12:19:38 -0600 Subject: Ritual and archiecture Message-ID: <161227029889.23782.8323359231084208135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the book Vijayanagara - City and Empire, New Currents of Research, ed. Anna Libera Dallapiccola etc. Stuttgart, 1985 the text you are looking for? On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:42:31 BST Mittal Sushil wrote: > > > > > At 03:51 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Hi everybody, > > > > > > > >I am looking for research/ studies relating to ritual in > > > >traditional Indian Architecture and find out if ritual has any significant > > > >relation to mandalas as archiectural devices > > > > > > > >Also, I cannot locate a study of ancient town of Vijayanagara by John Fritz > > > >and George Michell, It deals with urban morphology and rituals in the city > > > > > > > >Please let me know if anybody has come across such a study. Any references > > > >about ritual in ancient India will greatly help. > > > > > > > >Thanking in advance, > > > > > > > >sincerely > > > > > > > > > > > >d e e p a k g u p t a > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > See also, Subhash Kak's work. For references, see his _The Astronomical > Code of the RgVeda_ (New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1994). His email address > is: . > > > Sushil Mittal > IIIS and WHP > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Apr 22 10:21:58 1997 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 12:21:58 +0200 Subject: more Gita recordings (sigh) Message-ID: <161227029872.23782.14724800350888845400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:17 22.04.97 BST, you wrote: >If anyone is maintaining a canonical list of Gita recordings >I can mention but I don't particularly recommend, something >I've just heard, a musical rendition of Chapters 12 & 15 by >Yesudas, music by Rangasami Parthasarathy (who apparently >also set Chapter 2 elsewhere) (Oriental Records CD 114) > >Couldn't those guys find anything other than the Gita to in- >flict their bad taste on? I have got the same record. It is rather filmi, but doesn't sound quite as awful as some of the filmi stuff I have heard. If you want "religion light", I suppose it is the music for you. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk Tue Apr 22 11:58:28 1997 From: D.H.Killingley at newcastle.ac.uk (D.H. Killingley) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 12:58:28 +0100 Subject: Change in Word Meanings Message-ID: <161227029877.23782.17522229733662827080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 GANESANS at cl.uh.edu wrote: > > Change in Word Meanings > ************************ > > 5) kazhakam - originally, a gambling place. > Now, thamizhk kazhakam - tamil society etc., Was kazhakam _originally_ a gambling place, or was it a place of assembly in general, with 'gambling place' as a specialized meaning? Sanskrit sabhA offers a parallel: generally an assembly, but in sabhA parvan of MBh it has the special meaning of a gambling session. In both instances, the specialised meaning may reflect the importance of public gambling in the culture. Dermot Killingley From marcinl at hum.amu.edu.pl Tue Apr 22 11:41:45 1997 From: marcinl at hum.amu.edu.pl (marcinl at hum.amu.edu.pl) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 13:41:45 +0200 Subject: India's role in the history of linguistics Message-ID: <161227029876.23782.1239664487930512807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking for general materials related to India's contribution to the study of language. So far I have found one book carrying the above-mentioned title, namely "The Word and the World : India's contribution to ..." by the late Prof. B. K. Matilal. Is this book accessible on the net in any readable form(abstract, or summary, etc., etc.)? I would be extremely grateful for any other valuable links to relevant websites. Thank you in advance Best regards Marcin Lewandowski Institute of Linguistics Adam Mickiewicz University Poznan, Poland From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Tue Apr 22 19:30:42 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 15:30:42 -0400 Subject: Marathi word processors (fwd) Message-ID: <161227029891.23782.9318714228126697853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:35:20 -0400 From: Champa_Bilwakesh at AVID.COM To: Multiple recipients of list SASIALIT Subject: Re: Marathi word processors [cut...] Apple Computer Inc launches Indian language software By Narayanan Madhavan NEW DELHI, Feb 11 (Reuter) - Apple Computer Inc, eyeing a potential market of more than 200 million people, launched on Tuesday basic computer software in major Indian languages. Apple officials unveiled in New Delhi the Indian Language Kit (ILK), described as "the world's first operating system (OS)-level solution for Indian language computing." "It is a paradigm shift. It is the first of its kind in India," Apple Computer India's managing director, R.K. Gupta, told a news conference in the Indian capital. The operating system is the core standard around which software applications for users are developed. The ILK could serve as the foundation to write software applications in Indian languages and court a huge market that looks beyond English-speaking people of the 950-million-strong nation, Apple officials said. Apple officials said there were at present no Indian language equivalents for Disk Operating System (DOS) and Windows, the systems software made by Microsoft Corp for Apple's arch-rival, International Business Machines Corp .. A Microsoft spokeswoman confirmed to Reuters that DOS or Windows were not currently available in Hindi or any other Indian language. Apple said its OS kit would support three Indian scripts, enabling users to work with Hindi, India's main language, and the Marathi, Sanskrit, Nepali, Punjabi and Gujarati languages. India has 14 languages in which official communications are made. Apple was expected to develop basic software in other Indian languages within two years, Gupta said. Apple has developed similar OS software for Japanese, Hebrew, Arabic and Cyrillic (Russian) scripts. Apple's software requires compatible computer machines mostly made by the company itself, although it has now allowed the manufacture of clones, which IBM championed to pioneer a worldwide spread of personal computers. The software could also help the launch of World Wide Web pages on the Internet, they said. An Apple spokesman said Hindi was the first language for 182 million people, Gujarati for 39 million and Gurmukhi (Punjabi script) for 20 million people residing in India alone. Besides serving these people, ILK could cater to others who speak these languages in countries like South Africa, Yemen and Britain, he said. "This has been the dream of our industry," Dewang Mehta, executive director of the National Association for Software and Service Companies (Nasscom), told the news conference. Mehta said India's federal government had asked state governments to use one percent of their budgets in 1997/98 (April-March) on information technology. The state governments mostly communicate in local languages unlike the federal government, which mainly uses English. Indian language software could help boost the number of personal computers, currently as low as 1.6 million, Mehta said. He said an independent study had shown that the government of Uttar Pradesh, India's most populous state, would spend 35 billion rupees (about $1 billion) in 1997/98 on computers and peripherals if computing was possible in Hindi. Indian users, notably publishers, currently use local language software applications, but they are built with the help of intermediate tools based on English language operating systems, and lack flexibility, Apple officials said. From mkv1 at york.ac.uk Tue Apr 22 10:43:00 1997 From: mkv1 at york.ac.uk (Mahendra Verma) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 15:43:00 +0500 Subject: India's role in the history of linguistics Message-ID: <161227029882.23782.9792312271189918660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Marcin You could look at the following: G.Sastri.1959. The Philosophy of Word and Meaning. Sanskrit College, Calcutta. Pandey, R.C. 1963. The Problem of Meaning in Indian Philosophy. Motilal Banarasidas. Raja, K.Kunjunni. 1963. Indian Theories of Meaning. Chakravarti, P. 1933. Linguistic Speculations of the Hindus. Cheers. mahendra MahendraK. Verma Dept. of Language & LIng. SCience UNiversity of York YORK, UK From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Apr 22 22:53:59 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 15:53:59 -0700 Subject: problems with sanskrit font... Message-ID: <161227029894.23782.12660712093881596327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > I am trying to typeset a page in TeX with with some sanskrit text on > it using Charles Wikner's sanskrit package. However, although I am > certain I got the entire package (fonts/sanskrit.gz), dvips gives me > the following error about a missing file skt10. Any help in solving > this urgent problem would be greatly appreciated. Are the skt*.mf and skt*.tfm files placed in the appropriate directories? They should be in the directories where other *.mf and *.tfm files are kept. Dvips looks in these directories for these files and if they are not there, then it returns an error. Lastly, if you placed them elsewhere, did you remember to append that directory to your fonts path? Regards, Anshuman Pandey From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Apr 22 04:45:39 1997 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 16:45:39 +1200 Subject: problems with sanskrit font... Message-ID: <161227029867.23782.8393981594830869442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi I am trying to typeset a page in TeX with with some sanskrit text on it using Charles Wikner's sanskrit package. However, although I am certain I got the entire package (fonts/sanskrit.gz), dvips gives me the following error about a missing file skt10. Any help in solving this urgent problem would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance. - & dvipsk 5.66a Copyright 1986-97 Radical Eye Software (www.radicaleye.com) ' TeX output 1997.04.22:1639' -> test.ps kpathsea: Running MakeTeXPK skt10 657 600 magstep\(0.5\) canonex /usr/local/share/texmf/web2c/MakeTeXnames: Could not map typeface abbreviation k t. /usr/local/bin/MakeTeXPK: Running mf \mode:=canonex; mag:=magstep(0.5); scrollmo de; input skt10 This is METAFONT, Version 2.718 (Web2c 7.0) kpathsea: Running MakeTeXMF skt10 ! I can't find file `skt10'. <*> ... mag:=magstep(0.5); scrollmode; input skt10 Please type another input file name: ! Emergency stop. <*> ... mag:=magstep(0.5); scrollmode; input skt10 Transcript written on mfput.log. /usr/local/bin/MakeTeXPK: `mf \mode:=canonex; mag:=magstep(0.5); scrollmode; inp ut skt10' failed. kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log. dvips: Font skt10 not found, using cmr10 instead. dvips: Checksum mismatch in skt10 From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Tue Apr 22 16:13:23 1997 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:13:23 +0200 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029885.23782.4479523561846823949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, D.H. Killingley wrote: > Rupert Snell, 'The Hidden Hand: English lexis, syntax and idiom as > determinants of modern Hindi usage', *South Asia Research* vol 10, No. 1, > May 1990, pp. 53-68. Detailed study, with some references to previous > work. Thank you very much. I have handed over this information to the student. All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Wed Apr 23 00:32:47 1997 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (GAIL COELHO) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:32:47 -0600 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029901.23782.93763628275772690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've come across one reference to the influence of English on Hindi in Bernard Comrie's 'The World's Major Languages' (published by Oxford Univeristy Press in 1990), where Yamuna Kachru has an article on Hindi. She says that usually relative clauses in Hindi are not constituents of the main clause (e.g. jo ladka vahaa betha he vah mera bhai he), but 'under the influence of Persian and later, English, the relative clause is sometimes positioned following the head noun' (e.g. vah ladka jo vahaa betha he mera bhai he) (p. 488). She might be the one to contact for further information -- I think she's at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Gail Coelho > At 18:46 17.04.97 BST, you wrote: > > > >Dear Members of the list, > > > >A student is looking for literature on the influence of English on modern > >Hindi, especially on gender attribution to English loan words in Hindi and > >on borrowing of verbs from English. Here, in our library, we could only > >find works like "Indianization of English". Any help will be appreciated. > > From mgansten at sbbs.se Tue Apr 22 16:32:59 1997 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 18:32:59 +0200 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029887.23782.9025483904577586744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On another list, I noticed this posting: >I would very much appreciate your advice on how the word >Brahma is to be pronounced. Is it pronounced as Bramma >(with no h sound), Bramha (with the h coming after the m), >or is it pronounced as Brahma (with the m coming after the h)? >The way it is written in Sanskrit and in English is with the m >coming after the h. However, in many vedic chanting recordings >and in recordings of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam, I notice that people >are pronouncing the word with the h coming after the m, or as >Bramma. With the recent discussion among our Sanskrit scholars concerning what constitutes "correct" Sanskrit, etc, I thought it might be interesting to hear what pronunciation(s) you all feel would be permissible. Here in Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a German Ach-Laut, which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! -- only in Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own pronunciation as well? as it tends towards the "bramha" variety so often heard among panditas. Any comments? Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From HFArnold at aol.com Tue Apr 22 23:42:18 1997 From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 19:42:18 -0400 Subject: Himalaya Message-ID: <161227029897.23782.15740693766638253868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "And yet I can't help wondering why mountains, and Himalaya in particular, is considered to be especially holy. " You might find answers to some of your questions in Edwin Birnbaum's book Sacred Mountains of the World. Harold Arnold From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tue Apr 22 16:07:16 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 21:07:16 +0500 Subject: address request Message-ID: <161227029883.23782.3998835182303042500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, can someone give me the email address of Prof. Louis Flam. thanks. kalyanaraman. From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Tue Apr 22 19:21:15 1997 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 21:21:15 +0200 Subject: problems with sanskrit font... Message-ID: <161227029893.23782.1251427144589087743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > I am trying to typeset a page in TeX with with some sanskrit text on > it using Charles Wikner's sanskrit package. However, although I am > certain I got the entire package (fonts/sanskrit.gz) Most probably you mean sanskrit.tar.gz? The compression program gzip can only store one file. > dvips gives me the following error about a missing file skt10. Any > help in solving this urgent problem would be greatly appreciated. > dvipsk 5.66a Copyright 1986-97 Radical Eye Software (www.radicaleye.com) > ' TeX output 1997.04.22:1639' -> test.ps > kpathsea: Running MakeTeXPK skt10 657 600 magstep\(0.5\) canonex > /usr/local/share/texmf/web2c/MakeTeXnames: Could not map typeface > abbreviation k > t. > /usr/local/bin/MakeTeXPK: Running mf \mode:=canonex; > mag:=magstep(0.5); scrollmo > de; input skt10 > This is METAFONT, Version 2.718 (Web2c 7.0) > > kpathsea: Running MakeTeXMF skt10 > ! I can't find file `skt10'. I am using tetex 0.4 which is based on the previous version of Web2c, so things may have changed. In my case the MakeTeX-scripts look for filenames either in the filename database which rests in /var/texfonts/ls-R or in the .map files in $TEXMF/fontname. I have a file $TEXMF/fontname/special.map where I can specify filenames and their locations for non-standard font names. For example I have added the following: tc jknappen tc wasy jknappen sauter stmary jknappen sauter @c Added by pwyz (local stuff) skt10 public misc gtib public misc gtibsp public misc This means: search skt10 in $TEXMF/fonts/source/public/misc. Perhaps this helps. \bye -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 23 11:07:46 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 07:07:46 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029905.23782.17237483515166956636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The metathesis of h-initial consonant clusters in Sanskrit due to Prakritic (and other possible) influences are indeed very old. I have discussed some of the problems created by this inversion in Sanskrit sandhis in my paper "Linguistic Presuppositions of Panini 8.3.26-27", Proceedings of the Intrernational Seminar on Studies in the Astadhyayi of Panini, University of Poona, Pune 1983, pp. 23-42. While the Pali orthography keeps alive the cluster -hma- in words like Braahma.na, the inversion is operative in words like guyha < Skt. guhya; mayham and tuyham < mahyam and tubhya. The pronunciation of the word Braahma.na as assumed by the Pali authors was in all probability something like B(r)aahma.na, as suggested by the folk etymology of the word as baah(ita-paapa-dha)mma. The folk etymology seems to assume the sequence of baah followed by mma. All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Miroslav Rozehnal wrote: > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Martin Gansten wrote: > > > >I would very much appreciate your advice on how the word > > >Brahma is to be pronounced. Is it pronounced as Bramma > > >(with no h sound), Bramha (with the h coming after the m), > > >or is it pronounced as Brahma (with the m coming after the h)? > > >The way it is written in Sanskrit and in English is with the m > > >coming after the h. However, in many vedic chanting recordings > > >and in recordings of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam, I notice that people > > >are pronouncing the word with the h coming after the m, or as > > >Bramma. > > > > With the recent discussion among our Sanskrit scholars concerning what > > constitutes "correct" Sanskrit, etc, I thought it might be interesting to > > hear what pronunciation(s) you all feel would be permissible. Here in > > Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a German Ach-Laut, > > which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! -- only in > > Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own pronunciation as > > well? as it tends towards the "bramha" variety so often heard among panditas. > > > > Any comments? > > It seems to be a "prakrtization" of Sanskrit - in Pali for example almost > all Sanskrit "hm"s are pronounced (and written) "mh". > In Sri Lanka I met one monk who claimed that this change is regular for > pali and words "Bramha" and "braamha.na" are regular for Pali. > > Regards, > > Miroslav Rozehnal > Mandarin Training Center > National Taiwan Normal University > Taipei > Taiwan, R.O.C. > E-mail: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw > see: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/e-cbs.htm > > From thompson at jlc.net Wed Apr 23 11:18:47 1997 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 07:18:47 -0400 Subject: India's role in the history of linguistics Message-ID: <161227029907.23782.13527523708248949834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Colleagues, >I am looking for general materials related to India's contribution to the >study of language. So far I have found one book carrying the above-mentioned >title, namely "The Word and the World : India's contribution to ..." by the >late Prof. B. K. Matilal. Is this book accessible on the net in any >readable form(abstract, or summary, etc., etc.)? I would be extremely >grateful for any other valuable links to relevant websites. >Thank you in advance >Best regards > >Marcin Lewandowski >Institute of Linguistics >Adam Mickiewicz University >Poznan, Poland It occurred to me that, besides the enormous literature on Indian linguistics, you might find it useful to see what is said about "India's contribution to..." in a general history of linguistics. There is an accessible one written by R. H. Robins, called "A Short History of Linguistics" [2nd edit, 1979]. Chapter Six "The Eve of Modern Times", opens with an extensive discussion of the European discovery of Skt., from Sir Wm. Jones on.... Best wishes, George Thompson From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Apr 22 22:54:28 1997 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 10:54:28 +1200 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029896.23782.15115255024893842373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten (mgansten at sbbs.se (Martin Gansten)) wrote: >Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a German Ach-Laut, >which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! -- only in >Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own pronunciation as I think there is reason to believe that the original pronunciation of Brahma would have been Bruh-ma and not Brum-ma. In this respect, I also think that the h would have been very close to the German Ach-Laut, if my understanding that it is a velar fricative is correct. I base this on the following two pieces of evidence. 1. Greek and Roman accounts of ancient India record the related word Brahmana as "Bragmane" or "Brachmana", both of which indicate that the phoneme preceding m is a velar (I understand Greek "ch" is the X in TeX?) 2. Sir Monier Williams' claim that the word Brahma derives from the root "vrih" (cf vriksha = tree) meaning to grow. Having said this, I must also say that I have seen several North Indian temple walls with the word Brahma written in Hindi as Bramha with the "mh" conjunct consonant used instead of "hm". I was surprised when I first noticed that. I am of course open to correction on this point. Cheers. - & -- Anand Raman Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h) Dept of Computer Science Fx: +64-6-350-2259 http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman From STASIKD at plearn.edu.pl Wed Apr 23 15:33:02 1997 From: STASIKD at plearn.edu.pl (Danuta Stasik) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 15:33:02 +0000 Subject: Impact of English language on Hindi Message-ID: <161227029911.23782.3442947006955995969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:41:09 BST pwyzlic said: > >Dear Members of the list, > >A student is looking for literature on the influence of English on modern >Hindi, especially on gender attribution to English loan words in Hindi and >on borrowing of verbs from English. Here, in our library, we could only >find works like "Indianization of English". Any help will be appreciated. > >Thanks in advance > >Peter Wyzlic > >-- >Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Yamuna Kachru has written on this subject in a number of her articles and essays, e.g.: 'Impact of expanding domains of use on a standard language: contemporary Hindi in India'; in Studies in the lingustic sciences, vol. 17. no. 1, 1987; 'Corpus planning for modernization: sanskritization and englishization of Hindi'; In: as above, vol. 19, no. 1, 1989, where you can find a useful bibliography. With best wishes, Danuta Stasik Oriental Intstitute University of Warsaw ul. Krak. Przedmiescie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa, Poland e-mail stasikd at plearn.edu.pl From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Apr 23 20:10:48 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 16:10:48 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029913.23782.568280587262848271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos) wrote: >Well, I suggest that you watch the behaviour of the suffix "-ku" and of >words like "inta". Here what I found in my bookshelf. [Transliteration as per ITRANS 3.10] Pathippagam, 1993. (p.118) n^arapali vishayamaay enakku oru yOchanai tOnRivittathu. ----- If you object that Tenali Raman stories are not high-brow, let us turn to a typical modern prose rendering of the Thirukural. ``thirukkuraL, puthiya urai'', by puliyuurk kEchikan. puumpukaar pirachuram 1976. (prose rendering of kural 1.8) aRak katalaana an^thaNanin thiruvatikaLaich chErn^thavarkku allaamal, piRarkku, inpamum, ... ------ > Unambiguous external sandhi is very much there in Kannada > (both loopasandhi and aade;sasandhi), besides internal sandhi. Not knowing Kannada, I will take your word for it. >> (If by "all" you also mean languages outside India: French is an obvious >> example of a language with written sandhi.) voe> Between articles and associated nouns, between (some) prepositions voe> and voe> associated nouns etc. Do you mean to say that sandhi is applied in voe> print between the object and the verb, between the subject voe> and the voe> verb? My reading of French is for the most part limited to math voe> papers, but I don't even remember sandhi being applied in voe> print between adjective and the noun. >Adjective and noun? > - nouveau livre > - nouvel arbre I forgot about those. But how many of these are there anyway? English has sandhi between subject and verb in ``He's here''. That does not make written sandhi the usual pattern in English. The point I am trying to make is that even in spoken language, sandhi is limited to words which are closely connected. Let us take the Sanskrit example I gave earlier: tarhi mamaanena ka.n.tharaktena t.rptaa satiida.mta.taaka.mjalai.h paripuur.na.mkuru [This is from Vikrama's throne stories, edited by Edgarton]. `satii' and `idam' belong to different clauses. If the speaker pauses between clauses, there can be no sandhi here. If speakers insert pauses of different lengths to mark the transition to different parts of speech, then sandhi can occur only where the pause is non-existent to very short. BTW, I am still waiting to know how `real' Sanskrit speakers pronounce the sentence above. Anyway, all this is rather peripheral to the original question. What qualifies as `real' Sanskrit? Is it `real' Sanskrit if I say `prabhaate kaphi apibam'? Is it real Sanskrit if I say `godser gandhim ahan'? What about the difference between `badhate' and `kli"snaati'? I have still not found anyone willing to explain these things to me. ---------- >Because they are native Tamil-speakers and not Sanskrit-speakers. For more or >less the same reason why they have problems with the past tense of Hindi >transitive verbs, as I already mentioned. (See also Suniti Kumar Chatterjee on >this subject in his _Indo-Aryan and Hindi_, if you insist on not believing me.) I do not dispute that Tamil speakers have trouble with the Hindi (perfect) past tense. I dispute the explanation. Tamil is strictly accusative. The Hindi past is ergative. Ergative and accusative are fundamentally different ways of organizing grammatical categories and such differences cuase trouble at a gut level even to those who understand at the abstract level. This is worsened by the introductory books which lack the terminology to explain ergativity and instead continue the confusion with passive. [`ergative' is not even in my desk dictionary, unlike, says, `aorist' or `ablative'.] It does not matter how many people you quote. Unless they discuss the difference between ergative constructions and passives of strictly accussative languages, they are not coming to grips with the real issue. Surely we understand the difference much better than those who wrote fifty years ago; we must take this difference into account. I don't understand why you keep referring to the `passive' with respect to the Hindi past. Why do you not consider it ergative? What features of the ergative is it missing? > The passive does not come naturally to Dravidian speakers. And another native Tamil speaker disagreed with this already. Having spent the first nineteen years of my life in Maduari, I think that I have enough personal experience to conest the correctness of the claim. >---begin quote--- > This way of speaking is useful, when the subject of the action is not > known or is not intended to be mentioned or when the object > has to be emphasized. [Or when the subject of the sentence is the object in the qualifying clause. Like in the above sentence or in the example Palaniappan gave.] >have learnt to think in English (which revels in passive forms) The `man in the street' who talks in English does not use the passive in everyday conversation either. Whence this `English which revels in passive forms'? I suspect that the place of the passive in Tamil is similar to the case in English. It exists, but not often used in everyday conversation. In written styles, it has become more prominent for reasons other than `importation'. We must also distinguish, as Gonda pointed out in his `Remarks on the Sanskrit Passive', between the full passive and `passives' which use what is termed a passive form of the verb but are missing the agent. Even technical writting in Egnlish, which is full of `passives', mostly omits the agent, to appear `objective'. In other languages, first or second person pronouns may be omitted to appear modest or to avoid `finger-pointing'. When we look at the ya-passives, these kinds of uses of the passive are the most prominet in Vedic prose or simple narratives such as the Hitopade"sa. It is in kavyas that the ya-passive with the agent is more popular, but then it is more popular in Rgveda compared to the early Brahmanas. The full passive was no more popular in OIA than in Tamil or English. The explanation for the use of ta-participles to form the past tenses does not lie in the popularity of the passive because (1) the passive was not particulary popular, and more importantly (2) the ta-participle is not a purely passive construction. Speyer's Sanskrit Syntax explains (2) in good detail and I recommend it for those who think that `aaruu.dha' is `passive' because that is what the grammar book they read called it. Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw Wed Apr 23 08:40:33 1997 From: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw (Miroslav Rozehnal) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 16:40:33 +0800 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029899.23782.9594415666302543344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Martin Gansten wrote: > >I would very much appreciate your advice on how the word > >Brahma is to be pronounced. Is it pronounced as Bramma > >(with no h sound), Bramha (with the h coming after the m), > >or is it pronounced as Brahma (with the m coming after the h)? > >The way it is written in Sanskrit and in English is with the m > >coming after the h. However, in many vedic chanting recordings > >and in recordings of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam, I notice that people > >are pronouncing the word with the h coming after the m, or as > >Bramma. > > With the recent discussion among our Sanskrit scholars concerning what > constitutes "correct" Sanskrit, etc, I thought it might be interesting to > hear what pronunciation(s) you all feel would be permissible. Here in > Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a German Ach-Laut, > which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! -- only in > Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own pronunciation as > well? as it tends towards the "bramha" variety so often heard among panditas. > > Any comments? It seems to be a "prakrtization" of Sanskrit - in Pali for example almost all Sanskrit "hm"s are pronounced (and written) "mh". In Sri Lanka I met one monk who claimed that this change is regular for pali and words "Bramha" and "braamha.na" are regular for Pali. Regards, Miroslav Rozehnal Mandarin Training Center National Taiwan Normal University Taipei Taiwan, R.O.C. E-mail: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw see: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/e-cbs.htm From cbond at sas.upenn.edu Wed Apr 23 23:20:11 1997 From: cbond at sas.upenn.edu (cbond at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 19:20:11 -0400 Subject: Penn-Pune Connection Message-ID: <161227029915.23782.8397209267853173500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Penn-in-India > South Asia Regional Studies > University of Pennsylvania > Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 > > Greetings from Philadelphia! > If you have spent time at Penn and also in Pune as part of your studies > or research, we would like to hear from you! > Penn-in-India, the summer-abroad program of the University of > Pennsylvania that > is based in Pune, will be offering special courses and other activities > in honor of the golden jubilee celebration of IndiaMs independence. In > conjunction with this, Penn-in-India is bringing out a special > publication, the theme of which will be the long, rich, and fruitful > connection that exists between Penn and Pune. In this publication we > will be listing the past and present faculty and students of the > University of Pennsylvania who have had connections with Pune as part of > their scholarly work. > If you are or have been part of the Penn-Pune connection, we are asking > you to send us a brief write-up about yourself. Please include such > things as your present academic affiliation, the dates and nature of your > association with Penn, the dates and nature of your affiliation with > Pune, your field of research or study both here and there, persons you > have worked with, and any details of special interest that you think > others would enjoy hearing. A courtesy copy of the publication will be > sent to all contributors. > If you can send your write-up by Monday, April 28th, we would be > grateful. Please send it by Friday, May 2nd at the latest, as our > printer date is coming up soon! You can send it by email to: > cbond at sas.upenn.edu, or by FAX to (215) 573-2138, or by conventional mail > to: Carolyn Bond > South Asia Regional Studies > 820 Williams Hall > 36th and Spruce Streets > Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 > We are looking forward to hearing from you! > > With many thanks, > Surendra Gambhir > Carolyn Bond > > From wharman at DEPAUW.EDU Thu Apr 24 01:21:01 1997 From: wharman at DEPAUW.EDU (WILLIAM HARMAN) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 20:21:01 -0500 Subject: Indological Booksellers in France Message-ID: <161227029919.23782.6692249223453548702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Visa (Carte Bleu in France) is widely honored. Have you tried it? W. Harman On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Royce Wiles wrote: > I would like to be able to order books directly from France (mainly on > Indology related topics), the catch is I want to pay by credit-card. Any > recommendations anyone? > > Royce Wiles > Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies > Australian National University > GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA > > Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 > Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 > > > > From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu Apr 24 01:03:56 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 00:03:56 -0100 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029952.23782.15090079867130463781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 22 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (mgansten at sbbs.se) ms> From: mgansten at sbbs.se (Martin Gansten) ms> Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma ms> On another list, I noticed this posting: >I would very much appreciate your advice on how the word=20 >Brahma is to be pronounced. Is it pronounced as Bramma=20 >(with no h sound), Bramha (with the h coming after the m),=20 >or is it pronounced as Brahma (with the m coming after the h)? =20 >The way it is written in Sanskrit and in English is with the m=20 >coming after the h. However, in many vedic chanting recordings=20 >and in recordings of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam, I notice that people=20 >are pronouncing the word with the h coming after the m, or as=20 >Bramma. =20 ms> Here in Sweden, I often hear the -h- pronounced more or less like a ms> German Ach-Laut, ms> which to my ears at least is an abomination (not in itself! ms> -- only in Sanskrit words). But I suspect some would frown at my own ms> pronunciation as ms> well=82 as it tends towards the "bramha" variety so often ms> heard among panditas. ms> Any comments? It should be obvious that the ancient Indians would not write "hm" when they meant "mh" -- only to discover, when they write in Prakrit, that "mh" can be written: and so 'brahma' becomes Prakrit 'bamha'. The "mh" pronunciation is clearly later. This inversion of h and something else also occurs elsewhere in the pronunciation of pundits: cf. the name 'Prahlaada' / 'Pralhaada'. And (perhaps we may say "of course") this also occurs in several modern languages. I overheard a discussion of precisely this topic of "hm" and "hl" once among pundits in Mysore, and their conclusion was that although the pronunciation "mh" and "lh" was historically wrong, it had become extremely common, and misunderstandings would not occur anyway, so it did not matter much how one pronounced these combinations. - RZ From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu Apr 24 02:13:48 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 01:13:48 -0100 Subject: Change in Word Meanings Message-ID: <161227029950.23782.1854057157967200556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 21 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Gue> From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Gue> Subject: Change in Word Meanings Gue> Some tamil words have acquired almost opposite meanings Gue> over time. Examples: Gue> 1) n^ARRam - originally good smell, but now it signifies Gue> bad odour. Gue> Can you please add some more Tamil words like this? Gue> Any examples from Sanskrit? Perhaps it is worth mentioning that in modern Kannada, the word vaasane (from Sanskrit vaasanaa) is generally used in the sense of "bad smell", unless something explicitly indicates that the smell is not unpleasant. - Robert Zydenbos From Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de Thu Apr 24 08:07:19 1997 From: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de (Nadejda Moiseeva) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 08:07:19 +0000 Subject: TASTE TERMS: SWEET Message-ID: <161227029923.23782.1317141746223737587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleages, I am doing a cross-linguistic survey of taste terms, and I would appreciate your assistance with the following questionnaire, focusing on the taste term ?sweet?. Thanking you in advance, N.Moiseeva Language Are you a native speaker? Your name How to contact you A. Please translate these words and phrases. Provide alternative translations if there are any, and gloss the translations where this helps to understand them. 1. sugar is sweet 2. salt 3. sweet pie 4. sweet apple 5. sweet tea 6. fresh water (as opposed to salt or sea water) 7. full-fat milk (as opposed to low-fat or skimmed) 8. fresh milk (as opposed to sour) 9. non-salted butter 10. tasty soup 11. cooked ham 12. sweet potatoes 13. sweets 14. sweet cane 15. mild cheese 16. orange (the fruit) 17. ice-cream 18. good taste 19. cold food 20. sweet words 21. sweet baby 22. sweet heart 23. sweet life (dolce vita) 24. sweet-smelling 25. sharp knife 26. sound sleep 27. mild climate 28. brown (gold-brown, red-brown) 29. mellow colour 30. own sister 31. ring-finger 32. shin B. Could you mention any other uses of 'sweet' you can think of in this language, i.e. any other things that 'sweet' applies to? Dr. Nadejda MOISEEVA Universit?t Konstanz Philosophische Fakult?t Fachgruppe Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 5560 D-78434 KONSTANZ Germany Phone: +49 - 7531 - 882365 e-mail: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de From RAMALINGAM at elo.Helsinki.fi Thu Apr 24 08:43:42 1997 From: RAMALINGAM at elo.Helsinki.fi (RAMALINGAM) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 08:43:42 +0000 Subject: Kalevala in Tamil Message-ID: <161227029920.23782.8023431633411862301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After three years of research, KALEVALA, the national epic of Finland and one of the great classics of the world is available in Tamil language now. The Tamil translation in 480 pages contains all 22,795 lines in 50 poems. Tamil is now the 30th language into which Kalevala has so far been translated in its entirety; abbreviated translations have been made into another fifteen languages. All in all Kalevala has todate been translated to 45 languages in well over a hundred editions. NOW, INFORMATION REGARDING "KALEVALA IN TAMIL" IS ALSO AVAILABLE IN INTERNET. The article in the internet contains : 1. A part of the introduction written by Prof. Asko Parpola, Head of the Department of Asian and African studies, University of Helsinki, Finland. (This introduction is written elaborately under several sub headings which is published in English with a Tamil translation in the book); 2. A speech by His Excellency Mr. Benjamin Bassin, Ambassador of Finland to India, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh as Chief Guest at the Kalevala Festival held at Tamil Sangam Society Hall, Colombo, Sri Lanka; 3. A review specially written by Professor Karthigesu Sivathamby of Universities of Jaffna and Batticaloa in Sri Lanka; also - -the colour plate of the front cover, a part of the translator's forword in Tamil and about other links connected with Kalevala and Finland. =================================================================== For more please visit web site: http://www.helsinki.fi./~ramaling/kalevala-tamil/ - and pass this information to those who are interested in culture and world classics. =================================================================== Thank you R. Sivalingam ('Uthayanan') Tamil Translator of Kalevala Department of Asian and African Studies Post Box 13 (Meritullinkatu 1) 00014 University of Helsinki Finland Tel. & Fax: + 358 - 9 - 395 2413 From rbunker at franklin.lisco.com Thu Apr 24 13:31:46 1997 From: rbunker at franklin.lisco.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 09:31:46 -0400 Subject: Apple Indian Language Kit Message-ID: <161227029930.23782.4599794633428846791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Check out this website for info on the Apple Indian Language Kit: http://www.macos.apple.com/multilingual/indian/texthandling.html It seems that you HAVE to type a virama to make a consonent appear in its partial form. Wouldn't it be better just to type a conjunct consonent and have the computer figure out which consonents appear in partial form and which do not? So instead of typing 's(v)t(v)r' where (v) is whatever character Apple uses to type a virama (or halant as they call it), just type 'str'. Is there some cultural reason why viramas must be typed? --ralph From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Thu Apr 24 00:49:08 1997 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 10:49:08 +1000 Subject: Indological Booksellers in France Message-ID: <161227029917.23782.8842880769868607370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to be able to order books directly from France (mainly on Indology related topics), the catch is I want to pay by credit-card. Any recommendations anyone? Royce Wiles Asian History Centre, Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University GPO Box 4, Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 6 279 8853 (message) Home: +61 6 258 5134 Facsimile: +61 6 279 8326 Mobile: +61 (0)41 928 7569 From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 24 15:26:20 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 11:26:20 -0400 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029932.23782.7953518707831086322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao > > voe> The editor's introduction in the HSS I referred to earlier notes > voe> that in some verses attributed to Bhart.rhari, sandhi is > voe> occasionally not applied at the caesura. In the Kaavyas, sandhi > voe> is applied between the padas, but not always in puraa.nas. > > Which is one reason why some modern authors call the language of the puraa.nas > "corrupted" because of "errors in sandhi". But whether these are really to be > considered "errors" is debatable in some cases, and could indeed reflect a > manner of thinking about prosody that relaxes the application of sandhi rules > in favour of a more natural pronunciation of verses instead of considering the > metrical verse the unit of pronunciation. The key is the word `modern'. It might be better to talk of Sandhi in `reified' Sanskrit instead of `real' Sanskrit. From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Apr 24 16:35:38 1997 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 11:35:38 -0500 Subject: Apple Indian Language Kit Message-ID: <161227029934.23782.15671357333598445312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indian Languages on the Apple are truly computer savvy with the new kit. Apple's ILk uses the "f" key for the virama/halant. It is a fairly accessible and convenient key. They did this--to my understanding--in order to maintain compliance with both ISO 8859 (the Indian equivalent in 8-bit coding is ISCII) and Unicode/10646 (16 bit) and allow the software to generate the conjunct characters. As has been noted many times on this list, the conjuncts are not characters unto themselves and thus should not be Hex-code points. The "f" key functions as a hot key to invoke the worldscript software to generate an appropriate glyph combining the respective consonants. Thus, leaving each code point as a specific complete consonant in its glyph form, typing "str" instead of s/f/t/f/r gives satara, not str. Considering the future of mac OS-- to run on multi-platforms via the PPCP (formally called Chirp) chip, this ILK solution is well-worth investigating. In addition, the folks at Cupertino tell me that a transliterator is also in the works which will facillitate conversion of the ITRANS databases of e-texts into ILK-- another very attractive issue. In short, this ILK is intuitive (one can choose from a QWERTY or standard Indian keyboard layout) and easy to use, it's gentle on memory and, above all, it makes Indian languages an actual TEXT-- not simply a font. It means that anything you currently do--on the web, wherever--with text, you can now do with these Indian languages. They are also quite attractive with no disintegration at any point size. It has been noted that the Vedic accent is missing. I am looking to program these for Apple as a third-party developer (once I get done with dissertation work!). Inquiries welcome, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Robert Gardner Obermann Center School of Religion for Advanced Studies University of Iowa University of Iowa 319-335-2164 319-335-4034 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation. On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Ralph Bunker wrote: > Check out this website for info on the Apple Indian Language Kit: > > http://www.macos.apple.com/multilingual/indian/texthandling.html > > It seems that you HAVE to type a virama to make a consonent appear in its > partial form. Wouldn't it be better just to type a conjunct consonent and > have the computer figure out which consonents appear in partial form and > which do not? So instead of typing 's(v)t(v)r' where (v) is whatever > character Apple uses to type a virama (or halant as they call it), just type > 'str'. Is there some cultural reason why viramas must be typed? > > --ralph > > From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Thu Apr 24 13:04:29 1997 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 16:04:29 +0300 Subject: TASTE TERMS: SWEET Message-ID: <161227029928.23782.5055740018189340643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear colleages, >I am doing a cross-linguistic survey of taste terms, and I would appreciate >your assistance with the following questionnaire, focusing on the taste term >?sweet?. >Thanking you in advance, >N.Moiseeva > >Language Finnish > >Are you a native speaker? Yes > >Your name Asko Parpola > >How to contact you e-mail: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi > > >A. Please translate these words and phrases. Provide alternative >translations if there are any, and gloss the translations where this helps >to understand them. > >1. sugar is sweet sokeri /sugar/ on makeaa (makea 'sweet' < maku 'taste') > >2. salt suola > >3. sweet pie makea piirakka > >4. sweet apple makea omena > >5. sweet tea makea tee > >6. fresh water (as opposed to salt or sea water) makea vesi > >7. full-fat milk (as opposed to low-fat or skimmed) kokomaito, t?ysimaito > >8. fresh milk (as opposed to sour) (tuore) maito > >9. non-salted butter suolaton voi > >10. tasty soup makoisa / maittava / maukas keitto > >11. cooked ham keittokinkku > >12. sweet potatoes (makea) peruna > >13. sweets makeiset > >14. sweet cane sokeriruoko > >15. mild cheese mieto juusto > >16. orange (the fruit) appelsiini > >17. ice-cream j??tel? (j?? 'ice') > >18. good taste hyv? maku > >19. cold food kylm? ruoka > >20. sweet words hyv?t / miellytt?v?t / herttaiset / suloiset sanat (depending on the context) > >21. sweet baby ihana / suloinen vauva > >22. sweet heart hyv? syd?n (good heart), (my) sweetheart (= darling) >syd?nk?py(seni) etc. > >23. sweet life (dolce vita) makea el?m? > >24. sweet-smelling hyv?lt? tuoksuva > >25. sharp knife ter?v? veitsi > >26. sound sleep hyv? (good), riitt?v? (sufficient), kunnon uni (sleep) > >27. mild climate leuto ilmasto > >28. brown (gold-brown, red-brown) ruskea (kullanruskea, punaruskea) > >29. mellow colour l?mmin (warm), t?ytel?inen (fullish), pehme? (soft) v?ri > >30. own sister oma sisar > >31. ring-finger nimet?n (nameless) sormi (finger) > >32. shin s??ri > >B. Could you mention any other uses of 'sweet' you can think of in this >language, i.e. any other things that 'sweet' applies to? > > > >Dr. Nadejda MOISEEVA >Universit?t Konstanz >Philosophische Fakult?t >Fachgruppe Sprachwissenschaft >Postfach 5560 >D-78434 KONSTANZ >Germany > >Phone: +49 - 7531 - 882365 >e-mail: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 25 01:00:53 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 21:00:53 -0400 Subject: Wayne Howard? Message-ID: <161227029935.23782.2329180076502062303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone give me the email and/or regular mailing address for Wayne Howard? Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 25 03:04:24 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 02:04:24 -0100 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029954.23782.2585997162381103601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 23 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao >Well, I suggest that you watch the behaviour of the suffix "-ku" and of >words like "inta". voe> Here what I found in my bookshelf. voe> [Transliteration as per ITRANS 3.10] voe> Pathippagam, 1993. (p.118) voe> n^arapali vishayamaay enakku oru yOchanai tOnRivittathu. voe> ----- voe> If you object that Tenali Raman stories are not high-brow, let us voe> turn to a typical modern prose rendering of the Thirukural. Tirukku_ra.l, please - there is a sandhi there. :-) ^ voe> ``thirukkuraL, puthiya urai'', by puliyuurk kEchikan. voe> puumpukaar voe> pirachuram 1976. (prose rendering of kural 1.8) voe> aRak katalaana an^thaNanin allaamal, piRarkku, inpamum, ... voe> ------ But at the same time please observe in this very same sample: puliyuurk kEchikan ^ aRak katalaana ^ thiruvatikaLaich chErn^thavarkku ^ from which we can conclude that the editor dissolved only those sandhis which he thought too confusing for the less sophisticated reader. To be honest, I had not even thought of the loopasandhi (enakku oru -> enakkoru), but rather of the insertion of additional plosive consonants, which I think is typically Tamil. For instance, I am just now glancing through a page of Putumaippitta_n: "enakkut teriyum", "jamparukkup pi_n_naal", "vii.t.tukkup poo", "intac cuvarkkattaip pe_ruttavarai". voe> I do not dispute that Tamil speakers have trouble with the voe> Hindi (perfect) voe> past tense. I dispute the explanation. Tamil is strictly voe> accusative. I have the feeling that we are drifting away from the issue, which is: why is there a preference for the -tavant construction? A debate over whether we should call a certain category of verb forms ergative or passive could be potentially interesting, but the effort is wasted here. Rather than go into terminological subtleties (which are not in the minds of the speakers anyway, but in ours; and I must confess that I have never heard of an "accusative language") or terminological filibustering, let us look at what these forms syntactically demand. Irrespective of our considerations on more abstract and debatable levels, what matters very much is the switch from "aha.m pa.thaami" to "mayaa pa.thitam", clearly visible in the surface grammar. Why should "aham" suddenly become "mayaa"? Or, to take a parallel example from Urdu-Hindi: "mai.m karataa huu.m", "mai.mne kiyaa hai", "mujh se karanaa hai". My point is that in Dravidian, the nominative case would be used to translate the agent in all three instances (hence I would actually prefer "agentive" as a term for that case; but this does not matter here). This should be empirically absolutely clear, irrespective of whether we call something ergative, passive or anything else. (If you want to call it ergative, that is fine with me, because it does not matter.) Hence "aha.m pa.thitavaan", etc. >have learnt to think in English (which revels in passive forms) voe> The `man in the street' who talks in English does not use voe> the passive voe> in everyday conversation either. Whence this `English which voe> revels in passive forms'? If you are really interested: if you read a few English and Tamil newspapers or novels, you will be able to draw up your own statistics - which I think is a waste of time and energy when something is glaringly obvious. It is just as obvious as the surface grammar in my explanation of -tavant. - Robert Zydenbos From L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fri Apr 25 08:31:46 1997 From: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 08:31:46 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Brahma Message-ID: <161227029945.23782.1042337168398171505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande writes: > While the Pali orthography keeps alive the cluster -hma- in words >like Braahma.na, the inversion is operative in words like guyha < Skt. >guhya; mayham and tuyham < mahyam and tubhya. It is likely that cases like braahma.na are special, learned forms. They most probably became current when the texts of the Pali Canon were first put to writing, not earlier. Indeed they may only have arisen later (even possibly much later) as a result of the scribal tendency towards slight Sanskritization of Pali. We can say that metathesis is the normal development for Pali of h in combination with a following nasal. > The pronunciation of the >word Braahma.na as assumed by the Pali authors was in all probability >something like B(r)aahma.na, as suggested by the folk etymology of the >word as baah(ita-paapa-dha)mma. The folk etymology seems to assume the >sequence of baah followed by mma. But at Sn v. 519 we have only baahetvaa sabbapaapakaani without the presence of dhamma. So we can only assume that the beginning was some form such as baah-. Since this well-known explanatory wordplay was current in various schools of Buddhism, we do not know which Middle Indian dialect it would have been composed in. Metrical considerations make it clear that more developed forms were current in the spoken language behind the written forms of the Pali text as we have it. L.S. Cousins MANCHESTER, UK NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: Email: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Apr 25 15:48:37 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 11:48:37 -0400 Subject: Sandhi in `real' Sanskrit vs `conversational' Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029937.23782.11518892228328167527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> variety is in the eye of the beholder. In the Venkateshwara >> temple in Pittsburgh, I heard a priest give a blessing to a >> woman named Kamalaa with : kamalaasya sukham bhavatu. Obviously, >> the only person who was unhappy was I. Kamalaa was very happy >> with the blessing she received. The priest continued to add -sya >> after the name of every devotee who came by and did not seem to >> be aware of any problems. As for Venkateshwara himself, I am >> waiting to hear his reaction. >> Madhav Deshpande The Lord of Seven Hills just sent me His reaction, coincidentally after 7 days... it is the familiar finger-wagging refrain... "nahi nahi rak.sati .duk.r~n karaNe" ;-) ;-) ;-) -Srini. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Fri Apr 25 20:56:18 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 14:56:18 -0600 Subject: Searching Indology Archives Message-ID: <161227029939.23782.4374572412915340472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 4/25/97 Searching Indology Archives ***************************** With Indology postings growing, it will be great if we can search for a WORD in all of the postings in the archives. Not only the titles, but inside the postings too. I request Dr. Dominik Wujastyk to take a look at this. It will be very useful. Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov or ganesans at uhcl2.cl.uh.edu Note: I posted a wrong file under this title. Sorry. From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Apr 25 19:57:35 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 15:57:35 -0400 Subject: Passive in Dravidian (Was: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit') Message-ID: <161227029941.23782.5465416410342090916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think P.T.S. Iyengar was overreacting to the inelegant uses of the 'paTu' form. V.S. Rajam cites Robert Caldwell as saying, "None of the Dravidian dialects possesses any passive particle or suffix, or any means of expressing passivity by direct inflectional change; the signification of the passive voice is nevertheless, capable of being expressed in a variety of ways. "The Dravidian languages, indeed, are destitute of passive properly so called, and therefore, resist every effort to bring paD-u into general use. Such efforts are constantly being made by foreigners, who are accustomed to passives in their own tongues, and fancy that they cannot get on without them; but nothing sounds more barbarous to the Dravidian ear than the unnecessary use of paTu as a passive auxiliary. It is only when combined with nouns its use is thoroughly allowable." (A Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, 534) Palaniappan, thanks for pointing this out... I saw this in Rajam's book, but was a little dismayed by the lack of any comment by her on this issue. Of course, the book's chapter on "passive" itself could be construed by the reader partly as a response... Caldwell and P.T.S Iyengar are partly wrong. PTSI himself mentions aDipaDu/aDiyu_n as "true" Tamil idiom... so he isn't ruling out passive totally, it seems... except for conjecturing that it was imported. The larger context of his discussion is the earliest importation of Sanskritic ideas into Tamil literature and grammar... thus, he makes this remark wrt the passive voice, the adoption of eight case-inflections for nouns, and discusses the intrusion of other ideas in the poruL-atikAram (the chapter on "subject matter"). Regarding the 8 case inflections described/introduced by TolkkApiyanAr, PTSI says "Now if kAdalipin may be a case of kadali, why not kAdaliyedir ? At this rate Tamil nouns should have as many cases as there are adverbial and adjectival phrases derived from nouns in that language". PTSI raises these issues to suggest that, at least, various sections of the TolkkAppiyam are an unnecessary fit on the language, literature, it seeks to describe. Comments ? Regards, -Srini. From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Apr 25 20:00:05 1997 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 16:00:05 -0400 Subject: Passive in Dravidian (Was: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit') Message-ID: <161227029943.23782.15411609250746812543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>"Now if kAdalipin may be a case of kadali, why not kAdaliyedir ? ^^^^^^ That should be "kAdali". -Srini. From athr at loc.gov Fri Apr 25 21:52:39 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 17:52:39 -0400 Subject: MAY 4 FESTIVAL OF CULTURES CELEBRATES REOPENING OF JEFFERSON BUILDING, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS Message-ID: <161227029947.23782.15951132508038518805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LIBRARY OF CONGRESS MARKS PUBLIC REOPENING OF THOMAS JEFFERSON BUILDING WITH COMMUNITY EVENT To herald the completion of the decade-long restoration and modernization of the Library's original 1897 Thomas Jefferson Building and to celebrate its centenary, the Library is inviting the metropolitan area community for a free "Festival of Culture s" on Sunday, May 4. The event is supported by The Xerox Foundation, which is also funding the exhibition, "American Treasures of the Library of Congress" that opens May 1. Highlights of the celebration, which will run from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m., rain or shine, are tours of the magnificent art and architecture of the building's interior; views of the new colonnaded area studies reading rooms of the European, Asian, and Afri can and Middle Eastern divisions; and visits to some of the decorated rooms that are normally not open to the public. Performances by nationally known musical groups (see following schedule), celebrity readings, and treasure hunts for children will take place throughout the day. Food vendors will be available for those who wish to purchase lunch and snacks. All e vents are free. The Capitol Hill community is also celebrating Friendship House's "Market Day" on May 4, providing yet another reason to spend the day on the Hill. The 34th annual Market Day, 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. at 7th and Pennsylvania Ave. S.E., features food, games for children, crafts, music and much more. It benefits Friendship House, a Capitol Hill fixture since 1904, which provides a wide range of child development and community services. Visitors are advised to use Metrorail (Capitol South on the Blue and Orange lines or Union Station on the Red Line) to reach the Library of Congress as well as Eastern Market (Eastern Market on Blue and Orange lines). SCHEDULE FOR FESTIVAL OF CULTURES May 4, 1997, 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Events subject to change) NEPTUNE PLAZA STAGE 10 a.m. -- Opening remarks by Librarian of Congress James H. Billington 10:15 a.m. -- Italian flag-throwers MAIN STAGE - SOUTH LAWN OF JEFFERSON BUILDING 10:30-11:15 a.m. -- Nilimma Devi from the Sutradhar Institute of Dance 11:30 a.m. - 12:15 p.m. -- Celtic Thunder 12:30 - 1:15 p.m. -- Legendary Orioles and Hand Dancers 1:30 - 2:15 p.m. -- Sweet Honey in the Rock 2:30 - 3:15 p.m. -- The Seldom Scene 3:30 - 4:15 p.m. -- Steve Riley and the Mamou Playboys CHILDREN'S CORNER (Librarian's Reception Area, northwest corner, first floor of Jefferson Building) Readings for children from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m., for 15 minutes on the hour and half-hour. April 16, 1997 ASIAN DIVISION EVENTS (IN NEW READING ROOM) Chinese Calligraphy Judy Lu Kestell, David Hsu 11:00 am - 12:00 noon Exhibit of Indonesian shadow puppets Dr. Walter Koenig 12:00 noon - 3:00 pm Ikebana, Japanese flower arrangement 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm Chinese ethnic dances, puppet show, paper cutting, and Chinese yoyo 2:00 pm - 3:15 pm Liming Group Japanese dance 3:15 pm - 3:45 pm Ikebana, Japanese flower arrangement 3:45 pm - 5:00 pm Jessie Munn [The Asian Division will also have a separate celebration of its new reading room in the autumn, details to be announced later.] From Palaniappa at aol.com Sat Apr 26 02:23:01 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 22:23:01 -0400 Subject: tantra and paa, suutra and nuul Message-ID: <161227029948.23782.11101365788429754688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me first apologize for the length of this posting. I feel, however, that this way we can answer many questions related to the issue of 'ta'ntu/tantra'. In studying this problem, I do agree that the weaving metaphor might have been used by different cultures all over the world. However, it is not enough just to see if there is any use of weaving metaphor in other cultures. My approach to solving this problem is based on what Jan Gonda discusses in his book ?Old Indian? (p. 177-178). He says ?Awaking to the insight that also in an ancient language real synonyms must have been an extremely rare occurrence a few scholars embarked upon an investigation into the semantic differences of words which are commonly but incorrectly regarded as such. Thus studies were made of words belonging to the important fields of speech, inspiration, production of poetry, and producers of sacral texts by which interesting differences, special uses etc. were brought to light.? (As examples of this approach, he cites along with other works his own ?The Vision of the the Vedic Poets? and Grassman?s identification of the semantic distinction between ?sa?rva? and ?vi?zva? ) Pursuing this further, he also says, ?A thorough examination of semantically related terms proves indeed to be very fruitful........Studies of this type were, at least in part, intended to argue in favour of an adapted application of the theory of semantic fields to the examination of the Old Indian vocabulary. There is indeed no reason not to suppose that the Vedic corpus will show us in many respects pictures of closely knit and articulated lexical spheres in which the significance of each unit is determined by its neighbours so that the semantic areas reciprocally limit each other, and while covering the whole sphere divide it up between them?. Having stated my approach, let me say that the problem we are trying to address is the shifts that have takenplace within that overall field of weaving between spin, spindle, thread, strand, string, twine, weft, warp, on the one hand and ubh, vE, vApa,vAbha,Uta, otu, vartani, tanti, ta?ntu, and ta?ntra on the other. (The English words, most of which are clearly traceable to IE roots, are surrogates for Indo-European outside India.) To understand this shift, one has to look at the technology of weaving at first. Spinning involves drawing out and twisting the fibres of materials like cotton to form a continuous thread. In the European tradition, the word ?spin? is supposed to be derived ultimately from IE *spe- or *spi- meaning ?to stretch? according to some etymologists. If this is correct, then it means that the twisting aspect was not emphasized in the word ?spin?. (Twisting or turning is an absolute necessity in spinning natural fibres. The fibres form a helical structure.) But the fact that early IE recognized the basic nature of spinning is indicated by the word ?thread? which is derived from a word meaning ?that which is twisted?. If indeed ?spin? did not have any sense of ?twisting? in the beginning, in course of time, it has come to acquire the essential meaning of ?twisting? or ?turning?. ?Spindle? is obviously related to ?spin?. ?Twine? also has a basic meaning of ?twisted or doubled? thread. ?String? is a ?line for binding or attaching anything; normally one composed of twisted threads of spun vegetable fibre? is probably derived from an IE root meaning ?to draw close, press tight, contract?. ?Strand? refers to each of the strings or yarns which when twisted together or ?laid? form a rope, cord, line, or cable. In terms of threads, the meaning of ?stretch? seems to be relatively sparse in IE. Having spun the thread, let us look at weaving. IE seems to have considered the ?weft? the focus of the weaving process. The name ?weft? derives from *webh- meaning ?to weave? ,i.e., to pass the weft thread over and under successive threads of the warp. But the name ?warp? comes from words meaning ?throw? or ?turn? with the ultimate IE root being apparently *uer- meaning ?to turn?. But ?warp? is not thrown in the weaving process. It is the shuttle carrying the weft thread which is thrown or passed back and forth (thus turning) around the warp threads. (Skeat, in giving the etymology of warp links it to A.S. 'weorpan' meaning 'to cast, throw, hence, to throw the shuttle'. Also, in a woven cloth like a saree, if one were to remove all the warp threads, the remaining weft threads will form a flattenned helix.) Thus, the warp also seems to have been named with the focus on the action of the weft as the one around which the weft is thrown/turned. Now, let us look at the Indic situation. ?vartani? meaning ?spindle? is derived from ?vRt? meaning ?to turn? and is of post-Vedic attestation. But, as we shall see later, 'vRt' does occur in the sense of twisting threads in Vedic. So we can assume Vedic probably had a concept of spinning derived from 'to turn'. ?ve, ubh, vApa, vAbha, Uta,? are all related to ?weave?. ?otu? means ??weft? and is derived from ?ve?. Thus the word for weaving and weft in Vedic are similar to their European counterparts conceptually. ?ta?ntu? means ?(warp) thread? or ?warp? and is derived from ?tan-? meaning ?to stretch? ultimately derived from IE *ten-. ?tanti? meaning ?cord, string? is derived from ?tan-? also. ?tantra? meaning ?warp? is derived from that root as well. Regarding the use of ?tan-? in Vedic, Gonda says in The Vision of the Vedic poets (p. 114), ?The use of the verb tan- is instructive: it occurs also to denote the performance of a sacrifice or prolonged act of worship, implying that like the warp of a woven fabric it is put on the stocks and elaborated (e.g. 1, 170, 4; 3,3, 6 agnir... tanvAno yajJam purupezasam dhiyA; 10,130,2)? Later, in page 157, he also says, ?Expressing such ideas as ?extending, spreading, being protracted, continuing, stretching? this verb may be used in connection with various activities which in some way or other remind one of processess such as weaving, performing prolonged ceremonies.? Words for thread or warp deriving from ?to twist? or ?turn? are conspicuous by their relative absence in Vedic. While ?ta?ntu? seems to mean either a thread or a warp thread, ?ta?ntra? seems to mean ?warp? alone. What should be noted is that warp is not denoted by a word derived from ?to throw or turn? but one derived from ?to stretch?. (But in Ossetic (Iranian) , there is a word ?urd? for warp. This suggests a difference between Iranian and Indic) Also, the relative importance of the warp has increased compared to the rest of IE. For one, ?ta?ntu? is named so on the basis of a characteristic of the warp per se. Also, in several instances, when weaving is described, only ?ta?ntu? or words deriving from ?tan-? are collocated. Weft or ?otu? is not mentioned unlike in RV 6.9. In post-Rig Vedic usage, the bRhadAraNyaka upaniSad 3.6.1, also underlines the significance of the warp as the fixed or unchanging element, as J. Patrick Olivelle noted earlier. Later ?tantra? comes to mean standard form or model. Discussing a section of Baudhayana zrauta sUtra, Gonda says, ?In section 3 an explanation is offered of the distinction between the ?warp? (tantra) and the ?woof? (AvApa) of a sacrificial rite, that is of the framework, standing model, or those components which it has in common with other rites and those that vary from ritual to ritual and are therefore the special characteristic features.(The Ritual sUtras, 510) Now coming to RV 9.86.32, we have ?sa? sU?riyasya razmi?bhiH pa?ri vyata ta?ntuM tanvAna?s trivR?taM ya?thA vide?. This is translated by Griffith as ?He hath assumed the rays of sUrya for his robe, spinning, as he knows how, the triply-twisted thread.? Here ?vR-? is used in the sense of twisting as when individual strands/threads or twisted to form a thicker thread/cord. As we have noted earlier, individual sacrifices are metaphorically expressed as (warp)threads, and here the three sacrifices of morning, noon, and evening are referred to in a composite way. (This also reminds me of a Tamil verb ?puri? which means both ?to twist? and ?to perform? which is used in connection with the sacred thread of brahmins (?mUnRu puri nuNJAN? - thin cord with three twists/strands) as well as their performance of sacrifices, etc. (?Otal vETTal avaipiRarc ceytal Ital ERRal enRu ARu purintozukum aRampuri antaNar? - brahmins desiring Order/Law(?) who conduct themselves by performing the six actions of reciting vedas, sacrificing, making others do these two, giving, and receiving). Thus, there seems to have takenplace a significant shift in the perspective of the Indo-European descendants in India with respect to weaving. It can be seen in the comparison below. IE outside India Vedic ---------------------------- ---------------------- spinning derived from ?stretch? spinning derived from ?turn? warp named after the action of weft warp named after its own action thread/warp derived from ?turn? thread/warp derived from ?stretch? Both perspectives are reasonable being based on the weaving technology, but emphasize different aspects. So, it is possible that different cultures with similar technology might arrive at terms similar to either one or both of these. But in the case of IE in India, because of the presence of Dravidian with the words for spin derived from ?to turn? and thread/warp derived from the root meaning ?to stretch?, I would ascribe the usage and ultimate survival of ?tantra? to Dravidian influence. An anology might make this clear. Let us assume there is a village in India. A group of persons in the village traditionally wear a piece of cloth over their upper part of the body. Due to some reason, like a famine, some members of this group leave the village. Some settle in other villages with similar customs. One person goes to a city and settles there. Initially he wears the same cloth as he did in the village. After sometime, he is found to be wearing shirts instead of the piece of cloth he used to wear in the village. All his relatives in his native village, and others settled in other villages still wear the traditional cloth. Two persons are discussing the behavior of the villager. One says that there is no real change in behavior because the villager wore some upper garment both before and after coming to the city. And even if one were to concede the change in behavior, there are many villagers in other parts of the world such as Europe who also wear shirts and so the change in behavior could be due to independent evolution of the villager?s desire and not due to any exogenous influence. The second person says that the change from the piece of cloth to shirt is a behavioral change indeed and that the villager saw the city people wearing shirts and was influenced to change his own attire also. Personally, I would say that even though the arguments of both persons are possible theoretically, the more probable one is the latter. Regards S. Palaniappan From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 26 21:25:51 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 17:25:51 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029956.23782.17958009339576142218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos recently wrote: >Irrespective of our considerations on more abstract and debatable levels, >what matters very much is the switch from "aha.m pa.thaami" to "mayaa >pa.thitam", clearly visible in the surface grammar. Why should "aham" >suddenly become "mayaa"? Or, to take a parallel example from Urdu-Hindi: >"mai.m karataa huu.m", "mai.mne kiyaa hai", "mujh se karanaa hai". My >point is that in Dravidian, the nominative case would be used to >translate the agent in all three instances (hence I would actually >prefer "agentive" as a term for that case; but this does not matter >here). This should be empirically absolutely clear, irrespective of >whether we call something ergative, passive or anything else. (If you >want to call it ergative, that is fine with me, because it does not >matter.) Hence "aha.m pa.thitavaan", etc. I think it would be useful to differentiate the preference for different kinds of past participles in different varieties of Sanskrit. In Hindi, we have (split) ergativity, in that the ergative appears in the past tense, but not in the present tense. Thus, generally aham pa.thaami is fine, but instead of aham apa.tham, we are more likely to get mayaa pa.thitam. This is because in Hindi past tense, one has to say, without any option, something like mai~ne pa.dhaa. This is the kind of preference for the -ta participle that is seen in the stories of Vetaalapa~ncavi.m"sati etc. (See: Hans Hock's study: "P-Oriented Constructions in Sanskrit", in South Asian Languages, Structure, Convergence and Diglossia, ed. by Bh. Krishnamurti etal, Motilal Banarsidass, 1986). Obviously, the preference for -tavat in the Bangalore Sanskrit of Krishna Shastri is a distinct phenomenon. Such a preference is not manifest in the modern Sanskrit varieties coming from north India, or even from Maharashtra. The entire past tense systems of Hindi and Marathi are derived from the derivatives of the -ta participle in Sanskrit, and there is no trace of -tavat. Where one can get the agentive use of -ta in Sanskrit, such as aham gata.h (cf. Panini: gatyarthaakarma"sli.sa- "sii~gsthaasavasajanaruhajiiryatibhya" ca), we get agentive constructions like mai~n gayaa (Hindi) and mii gelo (Marathi). But for transitive verbs like khaad, one cannot have an agentive -ta in Sanskrit, and hence one can only say mayaa phalam khaaditam, the modern languages appropriately have mai~ne phal khaayaa (Hindi) and mii phaL khaalle (Marathi). These languages do not have a construction corresponding aham phalam khaaditavaan, because such a construction is dead in Prakrit a long time ago. Therefore, there is no preference for such a construction in Sanskrit rooted in Hindi and Marathi. In contrast, the preference for the -tavat construction in southern Sanskrit (I do not know if this can be generalized) is a truly distinctive phenomenon, and its underlying causes need to be distinguished from ergativity in Hindi and Marathi. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de Sun Apr 27 10:33:10 1997 From: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de (Nadejda Moiseeva) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 10:33:10 +0000 Subject: TASTE TERMS: SWEET Message-ID: <161227029958.23782.15267579913785719047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am doing a cross-linguistic survey of taste terms, and I would appreciate your assistance with the following questionnaire, focusing on the taste term ?sweet?. Thanking you in advance, N.Moiseeva Language Are you a native speaker? Your name How to contact you A. Please translate these words and phrases. Provide alternative translations if there are any, and gloss the translations where this helps to understand them. 1. sugar is sweet 2. salt 3. sweet pie 4. sweet apple 5. sweet tea 6. fresh water (as opposed to salt or sea water) 7. full-fat milk (as opposed to low-fat or skimmed) 8. fresh milk (as opposed to sour) 9. non-salted butter 10. tasty soup 11. cooked ham 12. sweet potatoes 13. sweets 14. sweet cane 15. mild cheese 16. orange (the fruit) 17. ice-cream 18. good taste 19. cold food 20. sweet words 21. sweet baby 22. sweet heart 23. sweet life (dolce vita) 24. sweet-smelling 25. sharp knife 26. sound sleep 27. mild climate 28. brown (gold-brown, red-brown) 29. mellow colour 30. own sister 31. ring-finger 32. shin B. Could you mention any other uses of 'sweet' you can think of in this language, i.e. any other things that 'sweet' applies to? Dr. Nadejda MOISEEVA Universit?t Konstanz Philosophische Fakult?t Fachgruppe Sprachwissenschaft Postfach 5560 D-78434 KONSTANZ Germany Phone: +49 - 7531 - 882365 e-mail: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de From mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA Sun Apr 27 21:29:49 1997 From: mittals at MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 17:29:49 -0400 Subject: Call for Submissions: _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Message-ID: <161227029960.23782.7446131887113203511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HINDU STUDIES Aims and scope The aim of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is to examine Hinduism centrally and in a special way. It wishes to consider Hinduism analytically and comparatively as a "form of life" as clarified by its contrasts and similarities to other historical and present day forms. This is to say that we will be less concerned with the intrinsic forms of Hinduism and its history, as illuminated by philological and descriptive studies. Rather, our focus will be, on the one hand, on Hinduism's adaptations to a wide range of historical circumstances and ecological, economic, and political possibilities and, on the other, on the Hindu forms that work "on the ground" in particular places and times to generate special kinds of social, cultural, and psychological order and problems. We consider this to be necessarily a comparative exploration and welcome (and need) contributions from scholars in other fields who wish to bring their own studies of religion, world views, theories of modernity and pre-modernity, social organization and social control, and so on, into dialogue with Hindu studies. We equally encourage South Asia scholars to explore such perspectives in their own work. We wish to explore whether it may be productive to ask--in addition to the descriptive "_What_ is Hinduism?"--the theoretical question (or questions, for we expect there is a large and productive set of answers) "_Why_ is Hinduism the way it is?" The Journal, therefore, invites submissions of a comparative or theoretical nature in all fields of the social sciences and humanities in the hope of furthering a dialogue that centers on one of the great human creations, Hinduism, which differs in so many respects from the religions and societies that have informed much of classical Western thought. Articles falling within the broad and deliberately somewhat vague boundaries we envisage will be chosen on the basis of the quality, importance and general interest of the research, the force of theoretical argument, and felicity of expression. For further details on the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ please visit the Journal Homepage at http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ijhs/ Completed manuscripts, inquiries about material for possible publication, and correspondence to the editor should be sent to the Journal's editorial office: Sushil Mittal, editor _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ International Institute of India Studies 1270 St-Jean St-Hyacinthe, Quebec Canada J2S 8M2 Phone: 514-771-0213 Fax: 514-771-2776 Email: mittals at magellan.umontreal.ca Article manuscripts, including notes, should not exceed 40 pages in length. Please submit four copies. All submitted work should be double-spaced, including extracts, notes, and references. Footnotes should be as few as possible, and typed double-spaced at the end of the text. Documentation should follow the style recommended in sections 16.3 through 16.28 of the _Chicago manual of style_, 14 ed. (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1993), pp. 641-51. Authors are encouraged to submit tables, figures, maps, photographs, and other illustrations along with their manuscripts; please consult the editor for specifications. Additional guidelines on manuscript preparation will be sent upon request. All manuscripts submitted to the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ are expected not to have been published elsewhere and not be under review for possible publication elsewhere. Unsolicited book reviews are not accepted. Books for review and correspondence concerning reviews should be sent to: Carl Olson Department of Religion Allegheny College Meadville, Pennsylvania 16335-3902 USA Tel (814) 332-3313 Fax (814) 333-8180 Email: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jehms at globalxs.nl Sun Apr 27 21:22:24 1997 From: jehms at globalxs.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 97 22:22:24 +0100 Subject: TASTE TERMS: SWEET Message-ID: <161227029974.23782.11231587012760462292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Op 27-apr-97 schreef Nadejda Moiseeva: >Dear colleagues, >I am doing a cross-linguistic survey of taste terms, and I would appreciate >your assistance with the following questionnaire, focusing on the taste term >sweet. >Thanking you in advance, >N.Moiseeva >Language dutch >Are you a native speaker? y >Your name erik hoogcarspel >How to contact you jehms at globalxs.nl >A. Please translate these words and phrases. Provide alternative >translations if there are any, and gloss the translations where this helps >to understand them. >1. sugar is sweet suiker is zoet >2. salt zout >3. sweet pie > zoete koek, zoete taart >4. sweet apple > zoete appel >5. sweet tea > thee met suiker >6. fresh water (as opposed to salt or sea water) > zoet water >7. full-fat milk (as opposed to low-fat or skimmed) > volle melk >8. fresh milk (as opposed to sour) > zoete melk >9. non-salted butter > ongezouten boter >10. tasty soup > lekkere soep >11. cooked ham > gekookte ham >12. sweet potatoes > zoete aardappel >13. sweets > zoetigheid >14. sweet cane > suikerriet >15. mild cheese > jonge kaas >16. orange (the fruit) > sinaasappel >17. ice-cream > ijsje >18. good taste > goede smaak >19. cold food > koud eten, broodmaaltijd >20. sweet words > lieve woordjes >21. sweet baby > schattige baby >22. sweet heart > lieverd, liefje >23. sweet life (dolce vita) > een onbekommerd leven >24. sweet-smelling > aangenaam geurend >25. sharp knife > scherp mes >26. sound sleep > diepe slaap >27. mild climate > mild klimaat >28. brown (gold-brown, red-brown) > bruin, goudkleurig >29. mellow colour > pasteltint >30. own sister > (eigen) zuster >31. ring-finger > ringvinger >32. shin scheenbeen >B. Could you mention any other uses of 'sweet' you can think of in this >language, i.e. any other things that 'sweet' applies to? zoete broodjes bakken (appeasing talk), zoetgevoisd (havign a nice voice), zoethouden (to keep silent or occupied), mierzoet (very sweet) >Dr. Nadejda MOISEEVA >Universit?t Konstanz >Philosophische Fakult?t >Fachgruppe Sprachwissenschaft >Postfach 5560 >D-78434 KONSTANZ >Germany >Phone: +49 - 7531 - 882365 >e-mail: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 28 05:40:58 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 01:40:58 -0400 Subject: Translations of Tamil names into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029962.23782.11483127893792457019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many place names and names of deities in Tamilnadu were translated into Sanskrit as is clear from inscriptions and literary texts. For instance, in the famous 10 th century CE Anbil plates of Sundara Chola (father of the famous Rajaraja Chola), the name of the village in the Tamil portion of the inscription is 'anpil' meaning 'place of love' and derived from 'anpu' meaning 'love'. But in the Sanskrit portion, it is called 'prema'. (See Epigraphica Indica Vol.XV) Similarly, in the 11th century CE Tiruvalangadu plates of Rajendra Chola, the village of 'pazaiyanUr' found in the Tamil portion is called 'purANagrAma' in the Sanskrit portion. (See South Indian Inscriptions, Volume III) The Tamil name meant 'the village of pazaiyan' where the name 'pazaiyan' is derived from Tamil 'pazaiya' meaning 'old', A place called 'mutukunRam' meaning 'old hill' has been sung by the Saivite Saints of the 7th century CE. Today it is known as 'vriddAchalam'. A comparison of names of places sung by the Saivite saints and their later names reveals many such translations into Sanskrit. Similar translations have occurred in the names of the temple deities also. The deity in the temple at 'tiruvaiyAru' meaning 'five rivers' is called 'pancanatIswarar'. The deity in 'tirumeyyam' derived from Tamil 'mey' meaning 'truth' is called 'satyamUrti'. I am curious if such a tendency is seen in other language areas? Regards S. Palaniappan From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 28 10:33:54 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 06:33:54 -0400 Subject: Translations of Tamil names into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029967.23782.16970426561539606034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed I come from Pu.yapattana or Pu.nyanagarii (= Pune, pu.ne in Marathi). I don't know how old this usage is, but it is commonly seen not only in modern Sanskrit publications from Pune, but often also in Marathi. The old pre-urbanization name of this place was punava.dii. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > Many place names and names of deities in Tamilnadu were translated into > Sanskrit as is clear from inscriptions and literary texts. > > For instance, in the famous 10 th century CE Anbil plates of Sundara Chola > (father of the famous Rajaraja Chola), the name of the village in the Tamil > portion of the inscription is 'anpil' meaning 'place of love' and derived > from 'anpu' meaning 'love'. But in the Sanskrit portion, it is called > 'prema'. (See Epigraphica Indica Vol.XV) Similarly, in the 11th century CE > Tiruvalangadu plates of Rajendra Chola, the village of 'pazaiyanUr' found in > the Tamil portion is called 'purANagrAma' in the Sanskrit portion. (See South > Indian Inscriptions, Volume III) The Tamil name meant 'the village of > pazaiyan' where the name 'pazaiyan' is derived from Tamil 'pazaiya' meaning > 'old', > > A place called 'mutukunRam' meaning 'old hill' has been sung by the Saivite > Saints of the 7th century CE. Today it is known as 'vriddAchalam'. A > comparison of names of places sung by the Saivite saints and their later > names reveals many such translations into Sanskrit. > > Similar translations have occurred in the names of the temple deities also. > The deity in the temple at 'tiruvaiyAru' meaning 'five rivers' is called > 'pancanatIswarar'. The deity in 'tirumeyyam' derived from Tamil 'mey' meaning > 'truth' is called 'satyamUrti'. > > I am curious if such a tendency is seen in other language areas? > > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > > > From Palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 28 13:36:05 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 09:36:05 -0400 Subject: Translations of Tamil names into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029969.23782.15376976839991722754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-28 07:36:34 EDT, you write: << Indeed I come from Pu.yapattana or Pu.nyanagarii (= Pune, pu.ne in Marathi). I don't know how old this usage is, but it is commonly seen not only in modern Sanskrit publications from Pune, but often also in Marathi. The old pre-urbanization name of this place was punava.dii. >> This is very very interesting. In an article entitled, "Etymology of Place-Names PaTTi-HaTTi", in Annals of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, S.B. Joshi gives a Dravidian origin for words like, paTTi, paTTaNa, haTTi, pADa, vADa, vADi, etc. As for the first portion, 'puna', DED 3558 lists " puJcaTamil 'punam' upland fit for dry cultivation; 'punakkATu' shifting cultivation on the hills; 'puncey' land fit for dry cultivation only, dry crop; Malayalam 'punam' a jungle, chiefly highland overrun with underwood and capable of irregular cultivation; 'punakkaNTam' as hill-tract; 'puJca' dry crop; 'puJca-kkaNTam' field under irrigation, yielding even three harvests. Kannada 'puNaji' dust-like dry soil in which a kind of paddy is grown. Tulu 'puJca-kaNDa a very good rice-field. Telugu 'punja' land cultivated without artificial irri8gation, high land." In Classical Tamil literature one of the important landscape division is the mountain/hill region (kuRinci) where the girls (heroines) are depicted as going to 'punam' or millet-fields to protect them from birds like parrots that would otherwise eat the grains. This 'punam' is the place where the hero meets the heroine and falls in love in the hill-country. Thus the old name for 'Pune' seems to have meant 'village of uncultivated fields in the hills'. Regards S. Palaniappan From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Mon Apr 28 14:26:22 1997 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 10:26:22 -0400 Subject: nAma Message-ID: <161227029971.23782.1572468152518289853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Wilke: Thanks for your note. I re read your original questions carefully now and would like to add some trivial information for what it is worth. I'm afraid I have not really explored this field and you are probably familiar with most of these points. 1. I have seen nAmAvalis for deities like Hanuman, Murugan etc in addition to local manifestations of Visnu et al. The number in a recent namavali for Murugan was acutally 300 or so. I checked with the composer and she said that's what she got in her dreams. Have also seen names for Sai Baba. 2. I don't know about secret names, but the custom of giving "ritual" names is still very strong among many families. This is a traditional name like Lakshmi, or the name of one's village goddess or kula daivam. such names are used only for rituals (samskaras, or when archana is done in your name in the temple). Certainly not secret by any stretch of the imagination. My mother insisted that my name Lakshmi (which probably only she uses even in ritual circumstances) be put on my Tamil wedding invitation. However, my "official" name has always been Vasudha. A lot of families use a modern name like "Priya" as the official one and the ritual "devijagadAmbAL" or something comparable for the ritual usage. Three names were given to me, five to my sister (I feel deprived!) The custom of changing a girl's name by her in-laws (soon after the wedding) is almost gone now, though I did here of one instance a few years back. This was more the rule during the time of my grandmother. 3. I'm afraid I 'm not familiar with Coomaraswami's thesis on the namavali beginning with Yaksha stuff. Since I had not studied this, I had simply assumed that the Vishnu sahasranama in the MBh was a kind of prototype. 4. New namavalis come into existence all the time; recently, I saw a list where names and epithets from Tyagaraja's kritis were lined up. I also have lists praising the kuttu vilakku (the oil lamps). If I do come accross any lists for Chellattamman or Nagatamman ( I will be in south India this July during the ADi month when these ammans are worshipped) I will let you know. Best wishes, Vasudha Vasudha Narayanan Professor of Religion Gibson Professor in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 At 11:59 AM 4/17/97 BST, you wrote: >>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:25:01 +0200 >>To: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >>From: Annette Wilke >>Subject: nAma >> >>Dear Indologists, >> >>I am presently working on Divine Names in Hinduism and I am interested in >some informations concerning the topic: >> >>1) Do also folk deities have (sahasra)nAmAvalis or even nAmastotras? (I >know only a vast number of examples of litanies to the deities of the >pancAyatana-group) >> >>2) Modern gurus often do have litanies with 108 or 1000 names (such as >Chinmaya, Ramana Maharshi, Amma). Is it a modern practice or do you know >litanies to historical saints? >> >>3) Which editions and translations are available of nAmasiddhAnta-sources, >especially those of the saints of the Kaveri-delta/Tanjavur (SadAshiva >Brahmendra, Bodhendra, SadgurusamI). Is LaxmIdhara's BhagavannAmakaumudI >edited or even translated? >> >>4) Is there a traditional codex of the japa-formulas of Vishnu, RAma, >Krishna and synonyms (To my knowledge there seems to be no restriction, but >rather dependence on certain sampradAyas, initiated by gurus) >> >>5) Is it still a common practice to give a secret name to a child? (In >interviews I got the impression that the practice is rather outdated) >> >>Thanks indeed for all informations and suggestions. >>Yours, Annette Wilke >> >=========================================================================== ===== >Dr. Annette Wilke >University of Berne >Institute for the Science of Religions >Lerchenweg 36 >CH-3000 Bern 9 >Tel.: 031 / 631 35 81 Fax.: 031 / 631 35 51 > > > From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Apr 28 17:59:30 1997 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 10:59:30 -0700 Subject: ra.ngana Message-ID: <161227029977.23782.13777350975306607537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ra.ngana is a flower that blooms during the monsoon in Bengal. Its colour is red. Mandakranta Bose Department of Religious Studies University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. mbose at unixg.ubc.ca On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, WILLIAM G WALL wrote: > In Rupa Gosvami's Vidagdhamaadhava there is a reference to a "ra.ngana" > garland (Act II). This does not appear to be a flower. Etymologically, it > seems to come from "ra.nga" ("play," perhaps sport, but also in the sense > of drama). > > Can anyone shed more light on this garland? > > Thanks, > > > Bill > > > William G Wall, Ph.D. > Institute for Vaisnava Studies > Graduate Theological Union > PO Box 11216 > Berkeley CA 94712 > (510) 849-8280 (office) > > email: wgw at dnai.com > Bharata.Srestha.HDG at com.bbt.se > > > > > From Frank.vandenbossche at rug.ac.be Mon Apr 28 09:09:04 1997 From: Frank.vandenbossche at rug.ac.be (Frank Van Den Bossche) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 11:09:04 +0200 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227029963.23782.11894329458159953669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology list, Does anyone know if the SamaraangaNa-suutra-dhaara of King Bhojadeva (ed. by T. GaNapati Saastrii, GOS 25, 32) has been translated already? Where can I find information on 'vimaanas' (a kind a flying etc. machines)? Thanks in advance. Frank Van Den Bossche Ghent University From thillaud at unice.fr Mon Apr 28 10:42:10 1997 From: thillaud at unice.fr (Dominique.Thillaud) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 12:42:10 +0200 Subject: hair's colour in sanskrit Message-ID: <161227029965.23782.7404953884201997742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, That's very hard to find in a dictionary the words who design hair's colours in epic. I'm interrested by the names for: white-haired, red-haired, blond-haired, black-haired Can someone help me ? Thanks in advance, Dominique Dominique THILLAUD Universite' de Nice Sophia-Antipolis, France From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Mon Apr 28 19:55:03 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 13:55:03 -0600 Subject: Vimanam (Re: A question) Message-ID: <161227029984.23782.16638793949959043321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vimanam ********* I am reading Kamban's Ramayanam (11th century?). This is in relation to editing of a late 16th century Ramayanam, set to taaLam. This is an exact retelling of Kamban and a condensation in a different metre. Thakkai R.'s first 5 kANDams have been printed by Dept. of Archaeolgy, Madras, 1983. I am working on YuddhakaaNDam, about 5000 viruttams in Kamban, reduced to about 1650 taravu koccakak kalippA in thakkai r. After the War, Raman & co., including all vanaras, climb aboard a vimanam. On the way back, Raman explains many events and the places of occurence to Siithai. The pushpaka vimanam is huge and there are beautiful descriptions in Kamban. I am sure there are earlier descriptions in Tamil, may be in Ciivaka CintaamaNi, etc., Does Valmiki describe vimaanams and air travel? Wondering from Johnson Space Center, N. Ganesan ganesans at cl.uh.edu or nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Mon Apr 28 19:32:37 1997 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (vasu at religion.ufl.edu) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 15:32:37 -0400 Subject: nAma Message-ID: <161227029979.23782.3366203496124331513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OOPs! Sorry! I sent a note meant for Dr. Wilke to the whole group-- I apologize! Please ignore it. Vasudha> From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Apr 28 20:40:18 1997 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 16:40:18 -0400 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227029980.23782.6279279785870688735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (Robert Zydenbos) wrote: voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao >>Well, I suggest that you watch the behaviour of the suffix "-ku" and of >>words like "inta". voe> Here what I found in my bookshelf. voe> [Transliteration as per ITRANS 3.10] voe> Pathippagam, 1993. (p.118) voe> n^arapali vishayamaay enakku oru yOchanai tOnRivittathu. voe> ----- voe> If you object that Tenali Raman stories are not high-brow, let us voe> turn to a typical modern prose rendering of the Thirukural. >Tirukku_ra.l, please - there is a sandhi there. :-) It is also a compound. voe> ``thirukkuraL, puthiya urai'', by puliyuurk kEchikan. voe> puumpukaar voe> pirachuram 1976. (prose rendering of kural 1.8) voe> aRak katalaana an^thaNanin allaamal, piRarkku, inpamum, ... voe> ------ >But at the same time please observe in this very same sample: > puliyuurk kEchikan [...] >from which we can conclude that the editor dissolved only those sandhis >which he thought too confusing for the less sophisticated reader. How then do you explain ``mazhai peyvathanaalethaan'' (urai of 2.1) vs ``kuRain^thathaanaal'' (of 2.4). Since application of the sandhis is at least as prevalent in speech as in print, why should ``less sophisticated readers'' (who presumably also move their lips when reading :-) have trouble with sandhi in reading versus sandhi in speech? My position is that these variations refelct the actual speech of the writer. This is also the reason why `ch' is seldom doubled. In speech it is mostly `s' and `s' does not get doubled. This also what Sanskrit grammarians meant when they say that application of sandhi in sentences (as opposed to in compounds or within a pada, not a >half-stanza<) is upto vivak.saa. Hence my criticism of the position that regularizing by applying these rules mechanically everywhere in a sentence is somehow more `real' or `superior' to regularization by not applying them anywhere. And am still waiting to know how `real' Sanskrit speakers say tarhi mamaanena ka.n.tharaktena t.rptaa satiida.mta.taaka.mjalai.h paripuur.na.mkuru ------ [I prefer the term `accusative language' so that the name comes from the distinctive feature, just as in `ergative'.] voe> I do not dispute that Tamil speakers have trouble with the voe> Hindi (perfect) voe> past tense. I dispute the explanation. Tamil is strictly voe> accusative. >I have the feeling that we are drifting away from the issue, which is: >why is there a preference for the -tavant construction? No we are not. My position is that Dravidian speakers would have no trouble if they could consistently say ``mayaa nagaram gatam.'', `mayaa pustakam pathitam.'' The trouble comes only when the category of `subject' has to be reanalyzed into `ergative'/`absolute' cases depending on the semantics of the verb. The difference can be settled by an experiment that I am not in a position to perform. Teach Hindi to a number of students who have had no formal instruction in grammar, and not familiar with any language with ergative constructions. Do not talk of active versus passive during the introduction of the perfect past, and make sure that the textbook/readers and any supporting materials do so as well. First drill the students in the past of the `transitive' verbs. When they are familiar with it, introduce the changes to made in the case of the other verbs. My theory predicts that the students will insert `ne' in the case of intrasitive verbs more often than they drop it in case of transitives and that the tendency to do this will have no relation to the frequency of the `passive' in the student's primary language. Your theory predicts that they will do the reverse and will have been doing this from the beginning, and that this will be inversely correlated with the frequency of the `passive' in the student's primary language. >Irrespective of our considerations on more abstract and debatable levels, >what matters very much is the switch from "aha.m pa.thaami" to >"mayaa pa.thitam", clearly visible in the surface grammar. >Why should "aham" suddenly become "mayaa"? The real question is why ``aham aagata.h'' but ``mayaa pa.thitam''? >(If you want to call it ergative, that is fine with me, because it does >not matter.) It does matter. It would not ergative if it is always ``mayaa''. It would not be ergative even if it was ``mayaa grama.h gata.h.'' and ``mayaa pustakam pa.thitam.'' It is ergative because it is ``aham nagaram gata.h.'' but ``mayaa pustakam pa.thitam.'' It is the fact that the `subject' changes case depending on the verb, rather than on the tense, that makes the construction peculiar. voe> The `man in the street' who talks in English does not use voe> the passive voe> in everyday conversation either. Whence this `English which voe> revels in passive forms'? >If you are really interested: if you read a few English and Tamil >newspapers or novels, you will be able to draw up your own statistics If you analyze the `passive' constructions, keeping in mind the distinctions between agentless `passives', `passives' occuring in qualifying/attributive phrases and clauses, and full passives, you would find the results less `obvious' than you seem to think. I took the first 20 sentences of five stories in 4/28 edition of the Columbus Dispatch. Of the 100, only in three was the main sentence passive. All three were agentless; two had no `by ...' and one had the instrument: ``... were answered by a message.'' In one case, an agentless passive occurred in an independent clause (``... and was told ...''). In every other case, 11 by my count, the `passive' occurred in a subordinate phrase/clause that qualified something else (... canonizing a priest charged with treason...). In many cases, the `passive' was combined with the indirect construction (Asked about the comments made by Woods ...; ... not to be called black...). Agentless passives is well-known in Tamil. (BTW, is that sentence passive or active?) The `man in the street' does not say ``ennaal chaappaaDup pODappaTTathu'' but it is not uncommon to see signs that say ``inge chaappaaDup pODappaDum'' (or as the story goes, ``chaappaa/DuppO/Dappa/Dum'' :-). Colloquial English does not even like agentless `passives' in main sentences. It is very common for Americans to say ``They kept putting it off.'' but write ``It was repeatedly postponed.'' Does this mean that those who grew up speaking Colloquial English will have trouble with Formal English? > - which I think is a waste of time and energy when something is >glaringly obvious. It is just as obvious as the surface grammar in >my explanation of -tavant. It is also `obvious' that the sun goes around the earth or that when the motive force is removed, moving objects will come to a stop. Why dig deeper? From jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be Mon Apr 28 21:44:03 1997 From: jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 23:44:03 +0200 Subject: Macdonell's dictionary - what's the correct title? Message-ID: <161227029982.23782.156647962192485614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have 2 names for Macdonell's small (about 400 pp.) dictionary at OUP: "A Sanskrit Dictionary for Students" and "A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary". Which one is the correct one? (Or are we talking about 2 different ones?) Thanks Jacob From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tue Apr 29 02:48:30 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 07:48:30 +0500 Subject: vELANDu Message-ID: <161227029985.23782.12105094440826152868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The word appears in an epigraphical inscription and is interpreted as a culivator; it is also an affix to the names of cultivator caste in Tamilnadu. A synonym is: vELANmai-mAntar. kO-vEL means a potter (ancient Tamil) vEL-ANmai means agriculture gO = horn (Skt.) bEl, bail = bull (Gujarati, Punjabi) aNDemu, aNDiga = one side of a pannier (Telugu) Interpreting the 'unicorn' on the Harappan seals as an hieroglyph, the pictogram can be read as kO + vEl + ANma The substantive meaning is: potter-cultivator; kO is a honorific connoting eminence. In such an interpretating of the script symbol, the underlying assumption of the language is that circa 3000 B.C., the NW India, particularly on the banks of the Sarasvai and Sindhu rivers was a linguistic area which intermingled the dravidian, indo-aryan and munda sememes. Would appreciate receiving comments and suggestions to further advance this methodology in cracking the script problem. Regards, Kalyanaraman. PS. There is an interesting interpretation for the lexeme kshudraka in Kautilya's Arthazaastra: the word means: a maker of micro-beads. (micro-beads are the major products of the civilization). Ancient geographical references seem to locate the kshudraka's in the region of Sindh-Rajasthan. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Apr 29 16:57:37 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 10:57:37 -0600 Subject: nAmA Message-ID: <161227029989.23782.12087461757974263051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nAmA **** I have seen several nAmAvaLis printed by Saiva Adheenams for the utsava mUrtis of temples under their management in Thanjavur delta. TiruvAvaDutuRai, Dharmapuram, TiruppanandAL adheenams have many famous ancient temples under their administration. Chidambaram Nataraja has his own sahasranamams. There is a Mucukunda Sahasranamam on Tiruvarur Tyagaraja. It is worth looking at the recent, (fabulous, acc. to Indira Peterson) book, "Tyagaraja cult in Tiruvarur" by Rajesvari Ghose. While talking to Rajarathna Bhattar of Meenakshi Temple, Houston, he told that there is only one Siva namavali, but many for goddesses depending on the kshetram. Is this true that there is only one siva sahasranAmam? There are tamil nAmAvaLis extracted out of Tevaram, for Murukan from Tiruppukazh, etc., I believe that all the nAmAs for gurus are fairly recent. N. Ganesan From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu Tue Apr 29 19:23:51 1997 From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce M. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: FYI: IJHS Inaugural issue is out Message-ID: <161227029993.23782.6845433430098405048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sushil: I have received the first issue, and it really looks wonderful. Thank you for your work in assembling it and creating this opportunity. And congratulations on the success! BRUCE ************************************************************************* Prof. Bruce M. Sullivan Associate Professor, Religious Studies (520) 523-2055 -- office Coordinator of Asian Studies (520) 523-1881 -- fax Northern Arizona University, Box 6031 bruce.sullivan at nau.edu Flagstaff, AZ 86011 USA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From jaybee at tm.net.my Tue Apr 29 20:03:56 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 13:03:56 -0700 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227030009.23782.13848275548475290466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frank Van Den Bossche wrote: > > Dear members of the Indology list, > Does anyone know if the SamaraangaNa-suutra-dhaara of King Bhojadeva (ed. by > T. GaNapati Saastrii, GOS 25, 32) has been translated already? Where can I > find information on 'vimaanas' (a kind a flying etc. machines)? > Thanks in advance. > > Frank Van Den Bossche > Ghent University Dear Mr. Frank, The following books might be useful to you regarding your pursuit into the "VAIMAANIKA SAASTRA". 1. Vimaana in Ancient India. by Dilip Kumaar Kanjilaal Published by S.P.Bhattacharjee, Sanskrit Pustaka Bandar, 38,Bidhan Sarani, Calcutta-700 006. 1985 2.GODS and SPACEMEN in the ANCIENT EAST W.Raymond Drake Signet 1973 The New American LIbrary Inc. 1301 Avenue of the Americas, New York New York 10019. There are also some other books , especially by Eric von Daniken. But he makes passing mention about them. There are many referances. But work into this field has not been in depth. Some Pauraanic details even reveal the application Lorentz's Equation. Wish you luck. The "Samaraangana Suutra Dhaara" has been published in "Gaekwad's Oriental Studies" 1924, Baroda. JAYABARATHI Sungai Petani. Kedah Malaysia. From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Apr 29 13:27:12 1997 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 14:27:12 +0100 Subject: Macdonell's dictionary - what's the correct title? Message-ID: <161227029987.23782.16562829525496092042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jacob Baltuch asked: >I have 2 names for Macdonell's small (about 400 pp.) >dictionary at OUP: "A Sanskrit Dictionary for Students" >and "A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary". Which one is the >correct one? (Or are we talking about 2 different ones?) It is "A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary", first ed. Oxford Univ. Press, 1929, several reprints. Best regards Georg v. Simson From jaybee at tm.net.my Tue Apr 29 23:11:16 1997 From: jaybee at tm.net.my (JAYABARATHI) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 16:11:16 -0700 Subject: Translations of Tamil names into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227030015.23782.17537248474573611686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > > Many place names and names of deities in Tamilnadu were translated into > Sanskrit as is clear from inscriptions and literary texts. > > For instance, in the famous 10 th century CE Anbil plates of Sundara Chola > (father of the famous Rajaraja Chola), the name of the village in the Tamil > portion of the inscription is 'anpil' meaning 'place of love' and derived > from 'anpu' meaning 'love'. But in the Sanskrit portion, it is called > 'prema'. (See Epigraphica Indica Vol.XV) Similarly, in the 11th century CE > Tiruvalangadu plates of Rajendra Chola, the village of 'pazaiyanUr' found in > the Tamil portion is called 'purANagrAma' in the Sanskrit portion. (See South > Indian Inscriptions, Volume III) The Tamil name meant 'the village of > pazaiyan' where the name 'pazaiyan' is derived from Tamil 'pazaiya' meaning > 'old', > > A place called 'mutukunRam' meaning 'old hill' has been sung by the Saivite > Saints of the 7th century CE. Today it is known as 'vriddAchalam'. A > comparison of names of places sung by the Saivite saints and their later > names reveals many such translations into Sanskrit. > > Similar translations have occurred in the names of the temple deities also. > The deity in the temple at 'tiruvaiyAru' meaning 'five rivers' is called > 'pancanatIswarar'. The deity in 'tirumeyyam' derived from Tamil 'mey' meaning > 'truth' is called 'satyamUrti'. > > I am curious if such a tendency is seen in other language areas? > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan Dear Sir, With all respect, I wish to express a different view. Not in all cases has the translation done correctly from Tamil to Sanskrit .We see that with a certain motive in mind, the translations have been bent to suit the motive. WE find a certain trend in the Tamilland, during the Medieval times and thereafter. A town in order to have a certain status, had to claim to greatness or create greatness. The easist way to claim that greatness was to have a Sthala Puranam. In order to give credibility and to sound grandiose, Tamil names were Sanskritised.During the Pallava times a deliberate step was taken to Tamilianise religion .But later, it got reversed. Whatever was Tamil had to be Sanskritised. It was this reversed trend that actually made people indulge inin translating. There is a place called "eRumbiyUr". It has been eulogised in thEvAram hymns as "thiruveRumbiyUr"."eRumbiyUr' is a place surrounded by hills. But the name underwent corruption and became,'eRumbUr". A "sthala purAnam" was created . It said that Siva was worshipped by ANTS! in that place.Therefore the place was called "thirueRumbUr' This was conveniently translated as 'pipIlikApuri" "pipIlikam" being Ant. padiththavan pAttaik keduththAn elzhuthinavan Ettak keduthAn :KodngunRam" means a leaning or bent hill."kodum" is bent. But the pandits translated it as "koTOra giri". "thiruk kodung gunRamudaiya nAyanAr' became 'kaTOra girIswarar'. From GANESANS at cl.uh.edu Tue Apr 29 22:11:37 1997 From: GANESANS at cl.uh.edu (GANESANS at cl.uh.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 16:11:37 -0600 Subject: nAmA Message-ID: <161227029995.23782.3237646221575467778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nAmA ******* Pl. take a look at: V. Raghavan (1908-1979), The power of the sacred name: V. Raghavan's studies in namasiddhanta and Indian culture. Editor: W. J. Jackson Satguru Publications, 1994, 362 p. Regards, N. Ganesan From Palaniappa at aol.com Tue Apr 29 21:51:26 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 17:51:26 -0400 Subject: Vimanam (Re: A question) Message-ID: <161227029997.23782.745329499808437367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-29 03:47:26 EDT, you write: << I am sure there are earlier descriptions in Tamil, may be in Ciivaka CintaamaNi, etc., >> In Puram 27, it is said that those kings/chieftains praised by poets will attain the ' pilot-less sky vehicle' by the words "pulavar pATum pukazuTaiyOr vicumpin valavan EvA vAnavUrti eytuba". In CilappatikAram 23.197-200, the king of gods and other gods arrive in a 'sky vehicle' with resurrected kOvalan and pick up kaNNaki. "amarark karacan tamar vantEttak kOnakar pizaitta kOvalan RannoTu vAnavUrti yERinaN mAtO kAnamar purikuzaR kaNNaki tAnen" Regards S. Palaniappan From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue Apr 29 22:43:00 1997 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 21:43:00 -0100 Subject: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit' Message-ID: <161227030005.23782.14496763979128917376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 28 Apr 97: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu) voe> From: Vidhyanath Rao voe> And am still waiting to know how `real' Sanskrit speakers voe> say [...] Whether you wish to call written Sanskrit which is full of sandhis "reified Sanskrit", as you did previously, does not matter either. What matters is that written sandhi is found throughout Sanskrit literature. This is a hard, empirical fact. It cannot be denied. It has also been mentioned here, not only by me, that sandhi is not, and has not been, always written wherever it can and could be; sandhi is not just a matter of applying a straightforward mathematical formula or running something through a computer program. But a reader must know sandhi in order to understand traditional Sanskrit. This is my point, and it always has been my point. I am sorry if I have not been sufficiently clear. voe> The difference can be settled by an experiment that I am not in a voe> position to perform. Teach Hindi to a number of students who have voe> had no formal instruction in grammar, and not familiar with any voe> language with ergative constructions. Do not talk of active versus voe> passive during the introduction of the perfect past, and make sure voe> that the textbook/readers and any supporting materials do so as voe> well. First drill the students in the past of the `transitive' voe> verbs. When they are familiar with it, introduce the voe> changes to made voe> in the case of the other verbs. My theory predicts that the voe> students voe> will insert `ne' in the case of intrasitive verbs more often voe> than they drop it in case of transitives and that the tendency to do voe> this will have no relation to the frequency of the `passive' in the voe> student's primary language. Your theory predicts that they will do voe> the reverse and will have been doing this from the beginning, voe> and that this will be inversely correlated with the frequency of the voe> `passive' in the student's primary language. S.K. Chatterjee (in his book to which I referred before) has already noted that the dropping of "ne" is precisely what happens in the Hindi of those new speakers ("Mai.m pustaka pa.rhaa" etc.), so it is not a prediction of mine: it is an empirical fact. Moreover, this experiment of yours would be wrong. I believe that anyone can learn any language. I have learnt more than a dozen languages to date, with different levels of active and passive mastery. I also believe that you can drill innocent students in such a way as to make them make any kind of mistake, which is apparently what you want to do in this experiment. It does not disprove any point of mine. My point is that certain constructions which are extremely common in Indo-Aryan are not common at all in Dravidian, and that unfamiliarity with certain grammatical features (e.g. ergativity) is an additional hurdle in learning a new language, so the HSP tries to hide this in their simplified Sanskrit. >Irrespective of our considerations on more abstract and debatable levels, >what matters very much is the switch from "aha.m pa.thaami" to >"mayaa pa.thitam", clearly visible in the surface grammar. >Why should "aham" suddenly become "mayaa"? voe> The real question is why ``aham aagata.h'' but ``mayaa voe> pa.thitam''? But this is a different issue. We were talking about "aha.m pa.thitavaan", and I believe it was you who pointed out that this was a characteristic of HSP Sanskrit. I responded to that remark (and I now regret that I did, and I will not make this mistake again). I am not interested in a terminological squibble about "accusative languages", "ergatives" and what not, and a truly serious discussion about these matters is more philosophical than linguistic. This is most interesting, but my own thoughts on such semiological topics are such that I would need a small bookful of space to explain them. (We may also note that in HSP Sanskrit, one says not "aham aagata.h" but "aha.m aagatavaan", although this too is not common Sanskrit, in an obvious parallelism to "aha.m pustaka.m pa.thitavaan". Why? Again: simplification through superficial similarity - let all the past tense forms look alike.) > - which I think is a waste of time and energy when something is >glaringly obvious. It is just as obvious as the surface grammar in >my explanation of -tavant. voe> It is also `obvious' that the sun goes around the earth or that voe> when the motive force is removed, moving objects will come voe> to a stop. Why dig deeper? This depends entirely on what you want. You are, e.g., free to leave the empiricalness of falling objects and to speculate about gravitation. It is quite nice to do so. But think of this: when an airplane runs out of fuel, it will crash; so a builder of aircraft must install a sufficiently large fuel tank. This is all he needs to know for his purpose. He has no need of theories of unified force fields, relativity theory etc. Also, it seems unlikely that any such theory will dispel the need for a fuel tank. The remarks I made about -tavant were entirely on this admittedly low, technical level. I have not yet seen any better explanation of this empirical phenomenon about which we have no differences and which is not explained when we merely use terms like "ergative" in preference over "passive", "transitive" etc. - Robert Zydenbos From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 30 04:58:09 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 00:58:09 -0400 Subject: Address Request Message-ID: <161227030001.23782.8730805282833335993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have the e-mail address of Douglas Renfrew Brooks? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at aol.com Wed Apr 30 05:12:46 1997 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Palaniappa at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 01:12:46 -0400 Subject: Passive in Dravidian (Was: Re: `Conversational Sanskrit' vs `Real Sanskrit') Message-ID: <161227030003.23782.6738129014046504126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 97-04-25 16:21:52 EDT, you write: << PTSI raises these issues to suggest that, at least, various sections of the TolkkAppiyam are an unnecessary fit on the language, literature, it seeks to describe. >> Some of the errors/inconsistencies in Tolkappiyam's first two books have been pointed out by G. Devaneyan aka tEvanEyap pAvANar in his 'oppiyan mozinUl'. (You may have to disregard some of his other views on language history.) Of course, in the third book which scholars consider to be of later origin, there are quite a few 'nUrpA's which do not reflect the Tamil culture. Regards S. Palaniappan From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Wed Apr 30 02:12:24 1997 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 07:12:24 +0500 Subject: help on conference in moscow on south asian languages Message-ID: <161227029999.23782.7537509805187859440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi, i have accidentally erase my in and out mail boxes. can i get info. on the conference proposed in Moscow in late June (before the ICANAS)? thanks for the help. kalyanaraman. From lpatton at emory.edu Wed Apr 30 11:54:13 1997 From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie L. Patton) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 07:54:13 -0400 Subject: Address Request Message-ID: <161227030010.23782.2971376694145219090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Palaniappan, You can find Prof. Brooks at dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu Yours cordially, Laurie L. Patton ************************************************************** Laurie L. Patton Dept. of Religion Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 Palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > Does anybody have the e-mail address of Douglas Renfrew Brooks? Thanks in > advance. > > Regards > > S. Palaniappan > From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 30 13:07:24 1997 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 09:07:24 -0400 Subject: question regarding Vimaana "flying machines" Message-ID: <161227030013.23782.7616226949046951924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may also look up the following: Vaimaanika-prakara.nam, part of Yantrasarvasva ascribed to sage Bharadvaaja, (English title: Maharshi Bharadwaaja's Vymaanika-shaastra or Science of Aeronautics, as revealed to venerable Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, translated into English by G.R. Josyer) printed at the Coronation Press, Mysore). No date of publication on my copy, but it appears to have been published shortly after 1973, the date of the Foreword. The work of Bharadvaaja was evidently received by Subbaraya Sastry through occult perception. The intro says: "On 1-8-1918, he began to dictate Vymanika Sastra to Mr. Venkatachala Sarma, who took down the whole in 23 exercise books up to 23-8-1923." Bharadvaaja's work is presented in the form of Suutras, with a commentary by some Bodhaanandamuni, and there are citations from all kinds of interesting works, which, I presume, are not otherwise available to us. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, JAYABARATHI wrote: > Frank Van Den Bossche wrote: > > > > Dear members of the Indology list, > > Does anyone know if the SamaraangaNa-suutra-dhaara of King Bhojadeva (ed. by > > T. GaNapati Saastrii, GOS 25, 32) has been translated already? Where can I > > find information on 'vimaanas' (a kind a flying etc. machines)? > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Frank Van Den Bossche > > Ghent University > > Dear Mr. Frank, > The following books might be useful to you > regarding your pursuit into the "VAIMAANIKA SAASTRA". > > 1. Vimaana in Ancient India. > by > Dilip Kumaar Kanjilaal > Published > by > S.P.Bhattacharjee, > Sanskrit Pustaka Bandar, > 38,Bidhan Sarani, > Calcutta-700 006. > 1985 > > 2.GODS and SPACEMEN in the ANCIENT EAST > W.Raymond Drake > Signet > 1973 > The New American LIbrary Inc. > 1301 Avenue of the Americas, > New York > New York 10019. > > There are also some other books , especially by Eric von > Daniken. But he makes passing mention about them. > > There are many referances. But work into this field has > not been in depth. > Some Pauraanic details even reveal the application > Lorentz's Equation. > Wish you luck. > The "Samaraangana Suutra Dhaara" has been published in > "Gaekwad's Oriental Studies" 1924, Baroda. > > JAYABARATHI > > Sungai Petani. > Kedah > Malaysia. > > From Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de Wed Apr 30 09:44:38 1997 From: Nadejda.Moiseeva at uni-konstanz.de (Nadejda Moiseeva) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 09:44:38 +0000 Subject: TASTE TERMS: SWEET Message-ID: <161227030007.23782.3616558051388445012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, many thanks for your kind help in answering my questionnaire. If ever you need any help with Russian, please do not hesitate to contact me. Best regards, N.Moiseeva From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 30 22:35:24 1997 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 15:35:24 -0700 Subject: question regarding Vimaana "flying machines" Message-ID: <161227030019.23782.2255505996140491802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > You may also look up the following: > Vaimaanika-prakara.nam, part of Yantrasarvasva ascribed to sage > Bharadvaaja, (English title: Maharshi Bharadwaaja's Vymaanika-shaastra or > Science of Aeronautics, as revealed to venerable Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, > translated into English by G.R. Josyer) printed at the Coronation Press, > Mysore). [snip] I've come across this text in our libraries here as well. I've always wondered how authentic the text is. The drawings included at the end of the book in the edition we have were said to have been drafted according to additional revelations. I've doubted the authenticity of the work in general. Of course, if we begin discussing the authenticity of the text then we're going to get into the whole debate of exactly how advanced Vedic civilization actually was... Regards, Anshuman Pandey From athr at loc.gov Wed Apr 30 20:52:03 1997 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97 16:52:03 -0400 Subject: Language name 'Koslakhi' Message-ID: <161227030017.23782.3439568088967429659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of a language named Koslakhi, probably from India? It does not appear in refernce books such as Ethnologue or in the lists of languages in the Linguistic Survey of India or the Census of India. A commercial firm is trying to find a speaker, or what language it is a name for, or dialect of, or close to, so that a person whose native language it is can be deposed in a legal matter. Thanks for any help you can give me. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-3732 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov