From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Sun Sep 1 11:36:37 1996 From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 07:36:37 -0400 Subject: NEW BOOK: Early Sikh Canon Message-ID: <161227025863.23782.16892979737927754603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We take pleasure in announcing a new book in the HARVARD ORIENTAL SERIES (ed. M. Witzel): Vol. 51 The Goindval Pothis: The Earliest Extant Source of the Sikh Canon. by Gurinder Singh Mann pp. XIV + 219 [with 18 plates including 16 photos of the mss.] ISBN 0-674-35618-7, Price $ 35.00 (hard cover) ================================================= * For further details (also ordering) please look up the HOS entry via my homepage: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- After the recent publication of a reconstitution of the earliest Indian text, the Rgveda, in HOS vol. 50, this volume deals with the earliest available version of the Sikh canon. It contains the first critical description and partial edition of the Goindval Pothis, a set of proto-scriptural manuscripts prepared in the 1570s. The manuscripts also contain a number of hymns by non-Sikh saints, some of them not found elsewhere. Through a meticulous analysis of the contents of these rare manuscripts, G.M. Singh establishes their place and importance in the history of Sikh canon formation. The book will be of great interest to scholars of comparative canon studies and of medieval Indian literature. ----- From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Sep 2 00:56:20 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 17:56:20 -0700 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025865.23782.8672924235685991382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:04 PM 8/31/96 BST, Jakub Cejka wrote: >Yes, Sanskrit is a foreign language (even foreign to everyone), I do not, >however see the reason why romanized texts do any harm to it. We should >not forget that devanagari is not THE Sanskrit script. The original >Sanskrit texts (in mss) are written in devanagari, grantha, telugu, >bangla, sarada -aadi Scripts. Even today, students in India read Sanskrit >not only in devanagari which has otherwise been selected recently as the >script (perhaps because of Hindi being widely learnt)... And let us not lose sight of the fact that neither devanagari nor any of the other scripts (including brahmi, for that matter) have any "intrinsic" relationship to Sanskrit. For centuries Sanskrit texts were transmitted orally before any form of writing was used to write them down. So early (Vedic) Sanskrit has as much to do with devanagari as it has to do with the roman or any other script. It is just a matter of using diacritics. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From thompson at jlc.net Mon Sep 2 18:29:47 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 14:29:47 -0400 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025867.23782.18124415514842460626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jakub Cejka and Luis Gonzalez-Reimann are of course both right to point out the difference between writing system and language. This is especially true in cases where the writing system is clearly much later than the language which it transcribes [as in the case of devanAgarI and Vedic Sanskrit]. But one frequently encounters the folk linguistic view that identifies these two very different things [think of the complex magical relationship between Arabic -- as language and as script -- and the Koran]. DevanAgarI has taken on this sort of magical relationship with Sanskrit not only for traditional Hindus, but also for Western devotees as well. I have been told rather bluntly by this or that member of this or that spiritual group that Sanskrit should not be studied in any other written form than the devanAgarI. To study it in Romanized script seems somehow inauthentic. While it is not an issue for an oral tradition like Vedic, in a literate context, the relationship between writing system and language may not be quite as arbitrary as that between devanAgarI and Vedic. In a literate context, a writing system may have an obscure but nevertheless a significant semantic [semiotic] value. To take one instance [in fact the one that started this thread]: our modern habit of marking word boundaries with a space [as opposed to the devanAgarI habit of overlooking them]. Our habit compels us to seek word boundaries and to mark them. A writer [or reader] using devanAgarI is not so compelled. As a result, with our writing system, we operate with a more or less "padapATha" image of text, whereas with devanAgarI, we at least have the option of visualizing a saMhitA text, an uninterrupted flow. One possible result of this difference is that the metaphor "flow of speech" may have more semantic power or charge or resonance in the devanAgarI- than in the western- mind [so to speak]. The devanAgarI would appear to be closer to an oral sensibility than the modern writing system [since the metaphor is older than scripts, at least in India: it is certainly a prominent Vedic metaphor]. Frits Staal has argued, provocatively and I think rightly, that linguistics in India "did not originate *in spite of* the absence of writing but *because* of it" [in Arch. europ. sociol. 30, 1989; the starred passages reflect Staal's italics]. Perhaps it can be said that devanAgarI reflects, more closely than a western romanized script, *something* in the language itself, though I can't quite put my finger on it. Perhaps it is meta-language, since a writing system presupposes a conception of language. In any case, I think it has something to do with our problem of whether or not to analyze text [compounds, sandhi, etc.]. Sincerely, George Thompson From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 2 22:22:31 1996 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 16:22:31 -0600 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025870.23782.7685335184289869211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, George Thompson wrote: > Frits Staal has argued, provocatively and I think rightly, that linguistics > in India "did not originate *in spite of* the absence of writing but > *because* of it" [in Arch. europ. sociol. 30, 1989; the starred passages > reflect Staal's italics]. Perhaps it can be said that devanAgarI reflects, > more closely than a western romanized script, *something* in the language > itself, though I can't quite put my finger on it. Perhaps it is > meta-language, since a writing system presupposes a conception of language. > In any case, I think it has something to do with our problem of whether or > not to analyze text [compounds, sandhi, etc.]. > Bill Poser argues that writing systems represent a phonological analysis of the language for which they are used. This sounds to me like what you were trying to put your finger on. Devanagari does in fact reflect a particular phonological analysis of Sanskrit; e.g. consonant clusters are clearly distinguished from single consonants by the use of half-letter symbols. Most importantly, while the roman alphabet mixes vowels among consonants and does not organize the various Cs and Vs in its ordering of letters in the alphabet (abcdefghij...), Devanagari has vowels clearly distinguished from consonants and, further, organises the various sounds according to place and manner of articulation. Stops are listed separately from non-stops, the stops are also distinguished from each other in place and manner of articulation by the use of rows and columns (velar stops are written in the first row, etc.). I've noticed that the writing system does affect the psychological view (intuitions?) that speakers have of their language; e.g. some Hindi speakers think that the half-letters used for consonant clusters really are half sounds! From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 2 22:25:24 1996 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 16:25:24 -0600 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025872.23782.15384940639646540531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I forgot to add my name at the end of the last message (about writing systems and phonological analyses). That was from Gail Coelho, a graduate student at University of Texas at Austin. Gail Coelho. From thompson at jlc.net Mon Sep 2 23:37:23 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 19:37:23 -0400 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025874.23782.7861243327462845496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gail Coelho has put her finger on the point precisely, by reminding us of the elegant arrangement of the devanagari characters according to a remarkable phonological analysis [into kulas, according to points and manner of articulation, etc.], testifying to the dazzling linguistic sophistication of the grammarians [and so early too!]. The other point that I was groping for was that devanagari also places a different emphasis on the role of the isolated word [pada]. Whereas early Greek and Latin grammars were essentially word-based, Skt. grammar never was [except, perhaps, in the case of the padapATha]. Perhaps the fact that, for BhartRhari, the basic linguistic unit was the sentence [vAkya] rather than the word, is also reflected in the devanagari script. George Thompson From magier at columbia.edu Tue Sep 3 14:20:24 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 10:20:24 -0400 Subject: event announcement Message-ID: <161227025875.23782.16085595410395348915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of The South Asia Gopher. Please contact event organizers *directly* for any further information. Thank you. David Magier The South Asia Gopher ==================== The Barbara Stoler Miller Memorial Lecture Series and The Virginia C. Gildersleeve Fund of Barnard College proudly present a two-part slide lecture: "KALI: THE DARKER SIDE OF POWER" Dr. Vidya Dehejia Curator, South & Southeast Asian Collections The Freer Gallery of Art and the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. and "THE BLACK MOTHER GOES WEST: KALI IMAGES IN THE WESTERN ART OF THE 20th CENTURY" Dr. Cornelia Vogelsanger Curator, South & Southeast Asian Collections Museum of Anthropology The University of Zurich -------- Friday, September 20, 1996 7:00-8:30pm 304 Barnard Hall Barnard College Broadway and 119 Street New York, NY For more information, please call: Rachel Fell McDermott Department of Asian & Middle Eastern Cultures Barnard College 212-854-5416 ALL ARE WELCOME From swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Wed Sep 4 00:02:54 1996 From: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 00:02:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for e-mail addresses Message-ID: <161227025877.23782.6025724354666991191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arvind Sharma of McGill Uni can be contacted at the following e-mail address: Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji Taralabalu Kendra Bangalore, India ================================================== ---------- From: Frank Conlon[SMTP:conlon at u.washington.edu] Sent: Friday, August 30, 1996 9:08 PM To: Members of the list Subject: Looking for e-mail addresses Dear Colleagues: Can anyone supply e-mail addresses for Arvind Sharma of McGill Uni and/or Willard J. Johnson, the author of the recent book on the Gita? Any assistance is appreciated. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor of History University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 Co-editor of H-ASIA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2455 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rmanring at indiana.edu Wed Sep 4 19:27:00 1996 From: rmanring at indiana.edu (Rebecca Manring) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 14:27:00 -0500 Subject: fonts for PC Message-ID: <161227025887.23782.13840555701086899406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone offer advice on Indic fonts (Devanagari primarily, but also Bangla) for PCs? I have Fran Pritchett's comprehensive list but would like to hear from someone who's actually used one or more of them and can tell me how they are. Thanks - Rebecca Manring From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Wed Sep 4 15:11:27 1996 From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 15:11:27 +0000 Subject: book search Message-ID: <161227025880.23782.13851092937535419514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear members, in our 'Sondersammelgebiet Indolgie/Suedasien' we try to collect as complete as possible. The following title came in as a inter-library-loan request, and we ordered it immediately. Now the order came back with the note: 'untraceble publisher/address'. Can anyone help? The title is: Beyond the Texts : new approaches to the study of the Vedas. Proceedings of the International Vedic Workshop held at Harvard... Cambridge, MA. 1995 Thanks for helping, gabriele Dr Gabriele Zeller Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 Tuebingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Sep 4 17:35:36 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 19:35:36 +0200 Subject: compound analysis in e-texts Message-ID: <161227025885.23782.10405404971570768630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Birgit, I am sorry you had wait for so long for an answer. I have had a very busy week! >One problem, which Jakub Cejka mentioned before, are ambiguous compounds >which are read in different ways by the tradition itself, and I would like >to second his question whether you have a policy on such cases. When we talk about ambiguous compounds, we are dealing with two possibilities: Compounds that can be analysed as different types of compounds (tatpursha, bahuvrihi etc), and compounds consisting of words that can be analysed i different ways, like the following: a/sva.m cakravartinarav-ahanocitam = fit to be a vehicle for a ruler who is sovereign or cakravarti+narav-ahana+ucitam = fit for Narav-ahana, who is a sovereign cakra+varti+nara+v-ahana+ucitam =fit to be a vehicle for a ruler who displays the wheel cakra+varti+narav-ahana+ucitam = fit to be a vehicle for Narav-ahana, who displays the wheel (Examples courtesy of Gwendolyn Lane, translator of the Kadambari. This should be a good example of the problems that Birgit is discussing. In my system of transliteration, narav-ahana would be kept as one word provided it is actually a name (I expect the context to disambiguate in most cases). Otherwise, the analysis would be cakra+varti+nara+v-ahana+ucita. If we happen to know that cakravartin here means ruler, then that would also be kept as one word. If we have no pragmatic knowledge as to how we should interpret the compound, we should use computational codes that allow us to give all possible interpretations. Thus, any automatic analysis of the text would be able to tell the scholar that there is a problem which has to be solved "manually". Ambiguity is a technical problem, nothing else. The fact that occasional analytical errors are made, or that possibilities are overlooked, is no argument against the analysis of compounds. Other scholars should always be aware of the fact that there may be more work to do. >Add to which, my current experience with preparing an e-text version of the >complete works of J~naana'sriimitra (short: JNA) tells me that "competence" >is a very, very relative concept. I have typed in quite a lot of his texts >by now, and I am virtually "living" with two of his treatises, but his style >is so intricately difficult that, more often than not, I have to give up on >compound analysis. Another problem is my lack of competence outside the very >narrow field of pramaan.a-studies. An author like J~naana'srii, who >frequently uses vocabulary/illustrations taken from poetics or at least not >conforming to the "standards" of the poor man's pramaan.a-terminology in >general, requires constant lexicographical investigation, and a lot of >reading experience in other subject areas. I don't have this experience, and >if I had to gain it simply to TYPE in the text, it would take at least ten >more years for me to come up with the preliminary electronic version of JNA, >which is not really in anybody's interest. In other words, at your present level of competence you can only do part of the job. I see nothing wrong with that. Other scholars can do the part that you are not yet fit to do. Again, this is not an argument against the analysis of compounds, only a description of a practical problem. The main thing is that as long as we are able to return to the "original" shape of the text by means of filters or macros that reestablish the text as it was before analysis, you can have your text both ways. >Hence, I have formed the opinion that (a) we can never be sure about the >competence required for the analysis, Maybe not initially, but certainly after some time! and (b) if I personally have to choose >between probably flawed compound-analysis and no compound-analysis at all, I >would prefer the latter, as far as texts published for the general audience >are concerned. I disagree. All texts have to be read with a critical eye. This is also the case with analysed texts. I would definitely prefer a flawed compound-analysis to no compound-analysis, but I would of course try to correct the errors and fill out the missing parts. An electronic text, just like a medieval manuscript, is a living text. This, of course, does not prevent one from preparing >compound-analyzed texts for the tasks you mentioned (indexing, collocations >etc.). Maybe one should differentiate different target-audiences for >different types of e-texts in the first place. I don't see any need to differentiate target-audiences, only a need for some elementary programming. If a text is typed and analysed, furnished with the relevant bibliographical data concerning the person who typed the text originally, along with the necessary macros or filters needed to create a "proper" Sanskrit text, the recipient can continue work on the text as s/he pleases. The text can then be passed on in an improved state with new bibliographic data concerning changes, who made them, when and why they were made etc. At the bottom of this is good old-fashioned philology, which we should all cherish. What is new, is the way the work on the text is communicated. >Another question I would like to ask is what principles people apply when >carrying out compound-analysis. Motoi Ono, Jun'ichi Oda and Jun Takashima, >for example, separated compounds with hyphens in their recently published >KWIC-Index to Dharmakiirti's works. They adopted the policy not to separate >(1) words with the prefixes a-, dur- and nih.-; (2) possessive adjectives >with -vat/-mat are separated, while adverbs with -vat meaning "such as" are >not; (3) a numeral with -dha/-vidha/-prakaara remains unseparated; (4) >compounds with -taa/-tva or with the elements -bhaava/-bhuuta are not >separated; (5) compounds starting with evam-, tat-, tathaa-, para-, yathaa-, >su-, sva- are not separated; (6) some compounds which are considered as >technical terms are not separated, e.g. padaartha, agnihotra, >ayogavyavaccheda, prasajyapratis.edha, svabhaavapratibandha. >I would be very interested in getting opinions on this policy. This is an interesting question. Personally, I have separated a, an, nir/nih etc (negations) by means of an equal sign (=). This enables me to manipulate them in a slightly different manner than other compounds if I want to. As terms that are technical terms (concepts) or personal names, I have not separated them. >As to Lars' argument that compound-analyzed texts facilitate students' >efforts - this leads on to another discussion, that whether facilitating >reading Sanskrit for students should be made into a general policy for >e-texts, and whether it is such a good thing to facilitate too many things >for students in the first place. All sound paedagogics start with simple things and then proceed to the difficult stuff. As it is, Sanskrit teaching has been very much on the sadistic side. My idea is to lead the students on, through simple narrative texts, to a reasonably good grasp of the Sanskrit linguistic system, and then slowly enable them to make their own compound analyses. As for more seasoned scholars, they may very well be able to analyse their compounds, but computers need help. I personally don't like romanization at >all, and I think romanized textual editions should die out as soon as >possible. This opinion is not based on a somewhat sadistic dislike of >students as such, but on the assumption that Sanskrit is a foreign language >with its own distinct writing style, and that it should be taught as such. I think this has already been commented upon, but let me repeat that there is no particular Sanskrit writing system. The choice of devanagari for S. is arbitrary. I see nothing wrong in using romanized text. What's more, when we analyse S. computationally, we are definitely better off with romanized text. Once again, sorry about a late answer! Best regards, Lars Martin From kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp Wed Sep 4 14:36:21 1996 From: kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 23:36:21 +0900 Subject: About caramabhaavi-nimitta Message-ID: <161227025883.23782.2073413873749645521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I am studying Nyaayavaarttika. I encountered a strange concept, caramabhaava, pazcaadbhaava, caramabhaavinimitta or pazcaadbhaavinimitta. Uddyotakara uses such a concept in many cases, with the special reference to saadhakatama (it is appeared in the discussion of pramaaNa) and the definition of karma In the first case, he says pramaaNe tu sati bhavantii bhavaty eva, so 'yam atizayaH saadhakatamatvam ucyate. yadvaan vaa pramimiite so 'tizayaH. kiMvaan pramimiite. pramaaNe sati pramimiite, na asati iti. ......... saMyogavac caramabhaavitaa vaa, yathaa vaa saMyogaH pazcaadbhaavii dravyazakitir bhavati tathaa pramaaNaM caramabhaavi pramaatRprameyayoH pramaazakitr bhavati, pazcaadbhaavo 'tizayaH (NV ad 1-1-1, Calcutta edition p. 19,1f) In the next case, this concept is found in the interpretation of VS 1-1-17. The phrase "saMyoga-vibhaaga-anapekSa" must be interpreted into "without another caramabhaavinimitta".(Such a interpretation sametimes appears in NV ad 1-1-12, p. 200; NV ad 2-1-33, p.482) The caramabhaava or caramabhaavinimitta would be translated "final or succeeding being (or cause)", but it is unfamiliar to me. In fact, such a concept is found in some works succeeding to Uddyotakara, some of which are obvious citations of Uddyotakara. But. I can not find it in earlier works. So I wonder whether such a concept is Uddyotakara's original, and if it is not, I feel a hesitation to decide whether it is originated with VaizeSika tradition or not. If anyone find the same or similar concept in earlier VaizeSika or other School's works, or know any paper referring such a concept, please teach me. Best Regards Yasuhiro Okazaki Yasuhiro Okazaki 545 Arima, Chiyoda-cho, Yamagata-gun, Hiroshima-ken, 731-15 Japan E-mail:kappa-y at po.iijnet.or.jp or :khb12400 at niftyserve.or.jp TEL&FAX +81-826-72-8851 From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Sep 5 07:28:29 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 07:28:29 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati River Project: Research Scheme Message-ID: <161227025890.23782.18268883179716224979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indus Sarasvati Research Centre has been asked by the Ministry of Water Resources to submit a project proposal for preliminary studies related to the revival of the sacred Sarasvati river. Attached is a preliminary draft response which we propose to submit. Dr. Sivarajasingham, ex-FAO expert in hydrology, geology has provided great assistance in drafting this; this is the first draft subject to further revisions. The basic theme of the proposal is not to recreate the Sarasvati lakes; but to hold the waters of the (would-be perennial) river underground and to foster a comprehensive, and integrated development plan for the north-western region served by the river. We would deem it a privilege to receive your comments and suggestions so that we can incorporate them in the proposal. The proposal should include components related to archaeology and culural-linguistic studies; any suggestions in this regard are welcome. Looking forward to your early response. Best regards. Kalyanaraman. Indus Sarasvati Research Centre, 19 Temple Avenue #4, Srinagar Colony, Saidapet, Madras 600015, India Tel. +91 44 2354640; 4936288; 4935871; Fax. 4996380 email:mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: SARASV1.TXT URL: From nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp Thu Sep 5 04:23:48 1996 From: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp (NOZAWA Masanobu) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 13:23:48 +0900 Subject: About caramabhaavi-nimitta Message-ID: <161227025893.23782.599820913500297856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yasuhiro Okazaki wrote: >I encountered a strange concept,caramabhaava, pazcaadbhaava, >caramabhaavinimitta or pazcaadbhaavinimitta. Uddyotakara uses such a >concept in many cases, with the special reference to saadhakatama >(it is appeared in the discussion of pramaaNa) and the definition of >karma... >I wonder whether such a concept is Uddyotakara's original, and if it is >not, I feel a hesitation to decide whether it is originated with >VaizeSika tradition or not. If anyone find the same or similar concept >in earlier VaizeSika or other School's works, or know any paper >referring such a concept, please teach me. Please refer to my paper 'Nyaya-Vaishesika Gakuha niokeru atixaya no Gogi (Meaning of atixaya in the Nyaaya Vaixesika School', (in Japanese) Indotetsugaku Bukkyogaku (Hokkaido Journal of Indological and Buddhist Studies) vol.9, 1994, on p.146. NOZAWA Masanobu Numazu College of Technology 3600 Ooka Numazu, 410 JAPAN Tel: 0559-26-5763 E-mail: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Fri Sep 6 02:27:26 1996 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 19:27:26 -0700 Subject: Job Announcement (fwd) Message-ID: <161227025895.23782.9344550301178594267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forward from Brad Clough , via RISA-L. Bard College is conducting a search for a tenure-track position in Hinduism, beginning August 1997. The position requires a strong commitment to teaching, scholarship, and the support of students' research. Candidates should have completed or nearly completed the Ph.D., and possess an excellent teaching record; publications should demonstrate scholarly engagement in their chosen field. Fluency in the relevant languages of specialization is assumed. Teaching responsibilities will include the study of Hinduism from the post-classical to the modern periods, complementing current offerings in the history of Buddhist thought and practice. The successful candidate will be able to interact easily with colleagues who work in different methodologies and cultural traditions. Bard College is a highly selective liberal arts college located in the Hudson Valley, ninety miles north of New York City. Bard is a member of the New York State Independent College Consortium for Study in India, which sends twenty students each Fall for a semester in Jaipur. Deadline for applications is December 15; applications received by November 4 will be reviewed for the AAR annual meeting in New Orleans. Applications from women and minorities are especially encouraged. Send letter of application, vita, and letters of recommendation (addressed to the Chair of the Religion Search Committee) to Theresa Vanyo, Manager of Human Resources, Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY 12504. EOE/AAE. From pfreund at mum.edu Fri Sep 6 21:15:14 1996 From: pfreund at mum.edu (pfreund at mum.edu) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 15:15:14 -0600 Subject: fonts for PC Message-ID: <161227025900.23782.15027549039635213814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anyone offer advice on Indic fonts (Devanagari primarily, but also >Bangla) for PCs? I have Fran Pritchett's comprehensive list but would >like to hear from someone who's actually used one or more of them and can >tell me how they are. > >Thanks - > >Rebecca Manring Ralph Bunker and I have been working to develop devanagari and transliteration data entry systems that work on the Mac and on PC-Windows, and are truly cross platform--they permit exchanging files between the two platforms. Typing devanagari on the PC should be as easy as typing English. Typing speeds of as high as 120 devanagari verses per hour can be achieved by a fast typist. To achieve this kind of speed on a PC it is necessary to use a typing program. This blazing speed --does anyone know of any faster?-- has been clocked with Vedatype. The "Vedatype" typing program that was developed, uses VedicFont, by VedicFontFoundry, a simple devanagari truetype font, originally designed for the Mac. Because in Windows (3.1 or higher), it is laborious and tedious to access the upper 128 characters of a font, and because devanagari fonts make use of all the characters in the upper 128, a typing program is helpful, if reasonable typing speeds are to be attained. Effortlessly accessing the full range of characters available in the font is one purpose served by the Vedatype typing program. We know that the devanagari script itself is not strictly speaking sequential, so it becomes necessary, for example, to type a leading r in a conjunct at the very end of the syllable that it precedes: This mental juggling slows the typing process, causes errors and frustration, and great difficulties for beginners, and can be more easily handled by a computer program. This is another area where Vedatype is useful: The Vedatype typing program allows entering simple transliteration in natural phonetic sequence, and assembles the proper conjunct characters, and vowel symbols for you. Refinements, such as placement of offset vowel markings for "ka" and "pha" are automatically taken care of by the program. The Vedatype program uses the same keystrokes for typing transliteration and devanagari, and can therefore convert from one to the other. Text that has been typed can be cut and pasted into any other Windows application that uses truetype fonts. (Font name and font size is lost when going from one application to another, but the text need only be selected, and the Vedic font and desired size chosen, for it to reappear.) The advantages of Vedatype are: 1. It is easy to learn, even a beginner can be typing after about five minutes. 2. It is possible to achieve typing speeds in devanagari that are on a par with English typing speeds. In principle, the algorithm for Vedatype could be customized for any font, and text could even be converted effortlessly from any one devanagari font (with its own unique key assignments) to any other, but this refinement awaits further software development. The keystrokes on Vedatype are as follows: 1. The letters a, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, and h are in their respective home key positions. 2. The vocalic r is in the q position. the guttural n is in the z position. The palatal n is in the x position. The palatal s is in the f position. 3. The letters ai, au, kh, gh, ch, jh, .th, .dh, th, dh, ph and b h require typing the two keystrokes shown, for "a" and "i" in order to get "ai." 4. The letters aa, ii, uu, and long vocalic r are in the shift position of the corresponding short vowels. 5. The retroflex letters .t, .d, .n, and .s, are in the shift position of the corresponding dental letters. 6. Anusvara (.m) is in the shift-m position; visarga (.h) is in the shift-h position. 7. In Vedatype, when a consonant is typed without the following short "a", then a virama is added. The virama disappears when you type "a" or any other vowel. 8. A signle danda is the comma keystroke; double danda is the period. Avagraha is straight single quote. 9. Anunasika is in the shift Z position. 10. There are key assignments for anunasika, pranava, pada separation, and for Vedic accents. VedicFont is available from Yeoman Software, SU #152, Fairfield, IA 52557 for $34.95. Vedatype is shareware, also available from Yeoman Software, for $15, for a total of $49.95, shipping included. Hope this is useful, Peter Freund From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Sep 6 15:01:27 1996 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 17:01:27 +0200 Subject: address I.K.Sarma Message-ID: <161227025898.23782.11280585702935143573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could those who know please provide me with the address of Dr. I.K. Sarma, former Director of the Archaeological Survey of India? Thanks Harry From fp7 at columbia.edu Sat Sep 7 13:12:05 1996 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 09:12:05 -0400 Subject: fonts for PC Message-ID: <161227025904.23782.1931693469685971161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Peter Freund wrote: > >Can anyone offer advice on Indic fonts (Devanagari primarily, but also > >Bangla) for PCs? I have Fran Pritchett's comprehensive list but would > >like to hear from someone who's actually used one or more of them and can > >tell me how they are. > > > >Thanks - > > > >Rebecca Manring > > Ralph Bunker and I have been working to develop devanagari and > transliteration data entry systems that work on the Mac and on PC-Windows, > and are truly cross platform--they permit exchanging files between the two > platforms. Typing devanagari on the PC should be as easy as typing > English. Typing speeds of as high as 120 devanagari verses per hour can be > achieved by a fast typist. To achieve this kind of speed on a PC it is > necessary to use a typing program. > This blazing speed --does anyone know of any faster?-- has been > clocked with Vedatype. The "Vedatype" typing program that was developed, > uses VedicFont, by VedicFontFoundry, a simple devanagari truetype font, > originally designed for the Mac. Because in Windows (3.1 or higher), it is > laborious and tedious to access the upper 128 characters of a font, and > because devanagari fonts make use of all the characters in the upper 128, a > typing program is helpful, if reasonable typing speeds are to be attained. > Effortlessly accessing the full range of characters available in the font > is one purpose served by the Vedatype typing program. > We know that the devanagari script itself is not strictly speaking > sequential, so it becomes necessary, for example, to type a leading r in a > conjunct at the very end of the syllable that it precedes: This mental > juggling slows the typing process, causes errors and frustration, and great > difficulties for beginners, and can be more easily handled by a computer > program. This is another area where Vedatype is useful: The Vedatype > typing program allows entering simple transliteration in natural phonetic > sequence, and assembles the proper conjunct characters, and vowel symbols > for you. Refinements, such as placement of offset vowel markings for "ka" > and "pha" are automatically taken care of by the program. > > The Vedatype program uses the same keystrokes for typing transliteration > and devanagari, and can therefore convert from one to the other. > > Text that has been typed can be cut and pasted into any other Windows > application that uses truetype fonts. (Font name and font size is lost when > going from one application to another, but the text need only be selected, > and the Vedic font and desired size chosen, for it to reappear.) > > > The advantages of Vedatype are: > 1. It is easy to learn, even a beginner can be typing after about five minutes. > 2. It is possible to achieve typing speeds in devanagari that are on a par > with English typing speeds. > > In principle, the algorithm for Vedatype could be customized for any font, > and text could even be converted effortlessly from any one devanagari font > (with its own unique key assignments) to any other, but this refinement > awaits further software development. > > The keystrokes on Vedatype are as follows: > 1. The letters a, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, > and h are in their respective home key positions. > 2. The vocalic r is in the q position. > the guttural n is in the z position. > The palatal n is in the x position. > The palatal s is in the f position. > 3. The letters ai, au, kh, gh, ch, jh, .th, .dh, th, dh, ph and b h > require typing the two keystrokes shown, for "a" and "i" in order to get > "ai." > 4. The letters aa, ii, uu, and long vocalic r are in the shift position of > the corresponding short vowels. > 5. The retroflex letters .t, .d, .n, and .s, are in the shift position of > the corresponding dental letters. > 6. Anusvara (.m) is in the shift-m position; visarga (.h) is in the > shift-h position. > 7. In Vedatype, when a consonant is typed without the following short "a", > then a virama is added. The virama disappears when you type "a" or any > other vowel. > 8. A signle danda is the comma keystroke; double danda is the period. > Avagraha is straight single quote. > 9. Anunasika is in the shift Z position. > 10. There are key assignments for anunasika, pranava, pada separation, and > for Vedic accents. > > VedicFont is available from Yeoman Software, SU #152, Fairfield, IA 52557 > for $34.95. Vedatype is shareware, also available from Yeoman Software, > for $15, for a total of $49.95, shipping included. > > Hope this is useful, > > Peter Freund > > Just for completeness, I would like to know how one would type the Urdu-based sounds of /fe/, /ze/, /qaaf/, /khe/, and /ghain/. All five are needed for Urdu words, and the first two of course for English-derived words as well. If this system is to work satisfactorily for Hindi, it can hardly do without these sounds. Since the f, z, and q keys have been assigned to other purposes, can these letters be accessed in some other way? I do not see them on the chart. From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Sat Sep 7 08:55:15 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 11:55:15 +0300 Subject: fonts for PC Message-ID: <161227025902.23782.16468226917735852131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anyone offer advice on Indic fonts (Devanagari primarily, but also >Bangla) for PCs? I have Fran Pritchett's comprehensive list but would >like to hear from someone who's actually used one or more of them and can >tell me how they are. > >Thanks - > >Rebecca Manring I have used Ken Bryant's Jaipur (see Pritchett's list for details) for years and like it quite well, but there are a few compatibility problems with the latest Macs. I believe they have been addressed in the upgrade, which I haven't been able to get yet. Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From pfreund at mum.edu Sat Sep 7 19:43:27 1996 From: pfreund at mum.edu (pfreund at mum.edu) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 13:43:27 -0600 Subject: fonts for PC Message-ID: <161227025908.23782.12802975910579432726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> The keystrokes on Vedatype are as follows: >> 1. The letters a, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, >> and h are in their respective home key positions. >> 2. The vocalic r is in the q position. >> the guttural n is in the z position. >> The palatal n is in the x position. >> The palatal s is in the f position. >> 3. The letters ai, au, kh, gh, ch, jh, .th, .dh, th, dh, ph and b h >> require typing the two keystrokes shown, for "a" and "i" in order to get >> "ai." >> 4. The letters aa, ii, uu, and long vocalic r are in the shift position of >> the corresponding short vowels. >> 5. The retroflex letters .t, .d, .n, and .s, are in the shift position of >> the corresponding dental letters. >> 6. Anusvara (.m) is in the shift-m position; visarga (.h) is in the >> shift-h position. >> 7. In Vedatype, when a consonant is typed without the following short "a", >> then a virama is added. The virama disappears when you type "a" or any >> other vowel. >> 8. A signle danda is the comma keystroke; double danda is the period. >> Avagraha is straight single quote. >> 9. Anunasika is in the shift Z position. >> 10. There are key assignments for anunasika, pranava, pada separation, and >> for Vedic accents. >> >> VedicFont is available from Yeoman Software, SU #152, Fairfield, IA 52557 >> for $34.95. Vedatype is shareware, also available from Yeoman Software, >> for $15, for a total of $49.95, shipping included. >> On Saturday, September 7, Frances Pritchett wrote >Just for completeness, I would like to know how one would type the >Urdu-based sounds of /fe/, /ze/, /qaaf/, /khe/, and /ghain/. All five are >needed for Urdu words, and the first two of course for English-derived >words as well. If this system is to work satisfactorily for Hindi, it can >hardly do without these sounds. Since the f, z, and q keys have been >assigned to other purposes, can these letters be accessed in some other >way? I do not see them on the chart. Dear Frances: In terms of typing Urdu or Hindi using Vedatype, it is easy to accomodate a number of additional sounds on the keyboard: The shift z (Z), shift x (X), shift k (K), shift g (G), shift p (P), shift f (F), and shift v (V) keys are all unassigned for devanagari in Vedatype. Do you have some suggestions which of these keystrokes would best go with which sounds? We have a Hindi version of VedicFont, called VedicH, which has the ja, kha, ka, pha, ga, .da, and .dha devanagari characters all with a dot under them. Sanskrit is taught in our university, but not Hindi, so there has not been a demand for a Hindi typing program, and the development of this Hindi version of Vedatype has languished. If even a dozen people were interested in such a typing program it might be worth pursuing. However, the Vedatype system may not be readily adaptable to Hindi because Vedatype requires typing an "a" or other vowel after each consonant; otherwise the program will put the successive consonants together into a conjunct; alternatively, if there is no following consonant, and there is no vowel, it will insert a virama. The Hindi habit of dropping a's may prove no end of confusion for the typist. Vedatype is designed for a strictly phonetic, syllabic script, without spelling aberrations. We're not sure any script/language other than devanagari and Sanskrit fulfills these requirements. Sincerely, Peter Freund From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Sat Sep 7 13:36:55 1996 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 15:36:55 +0200 Subject: typing Sanskrit an other Indian languages Message-ID: <161227025906.23782.6683013179108466546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry I am a bit late with answer to some problems of transcription and BO. I had a lot of work recently and I feel it is better to slow down while discussing a serious problem like this. The problem is really hard to solve and tiresome (in that sense it is boring), however it is a matter of discussion if the problem is boring in the sense it is not worthy of analysis and discussion (this is a propos G. Huets remarks about "a very boring topic" and his competent discussion of it). "Boring" in the sense of not being interesting is quite subjective so I omitt the subject. I would like to thank everybody who took part in the discussion so far. As it is hard to answer to every proposal and question I would rather try and gather the major problems so far (then, in another letter, I would like to give answer to some problems raised by G. Huet). I) Is it useful to have a Roman script transcription of Indic languages for presentation (on a computer screen or in a printed form)? I think it is. Reasons: 1) it is easier to operate (produce, comment (!) etc) text in that form; 2) the produced text is much more then a devanagari text accessible to a) interdisciplinary research; b) general public (including young enthusiastic readers which may be more interested in spiritual, philosophical or simply Indian matters than in devanagari) 3) Roman script has advantage of better visibility on the screen than devanagari (given present day hardware and customs of majority of the net public but also because devanagari [not to mention some other Indian scripts] has so many beatiful curves in its ligatures that it will allways be hard to read on small computer screens) II) What features should such a system of transcription possess? I think it should: 1) be close to traditional (especially internationally accepted) systems of transcription for languages in question. * It would be no major problem if the same sounds were rendered by different sets af signs in different languages (that is their respective systems of transcriptions) especially when the languages are either very different or spoken by people who leave far away from one another. You can always mark the language the word belong to in case of doubt eg. skr. 2) It should not go against internationally accepted conventions of using Roman script (like usage of capital letters). Let us not get mistaken by names like INTRANS which are rather expression of aspiration (and tool of promotion) than real respect for international conventions. 3) It should be easy to learn (taking into account a given system of internationally accepted transcription) 4) It should be relatively easy to type for many people (and not only to a few martyrs who produce devanagari electronic texts and differ largely in their ways; my high regards and thanks to them for their benedictine work) Additionally, 5) I think we should start with Sanskrit, then move to Hindi and other Indian indoeuropean languages, and only then to Dravidian ones and some other. It may sound unpleasent for Southerners but as Sanskrit unites us all similarity to this language of Hindi etc. is simply a fact which should be acknowledged and taken advantage of. Finally, I would like to stress the international discussions are being conducted with Roman script rather then devanagari so I really do not feel we should leave the problem unresolved. I am sorry, this is all I have time for today. I will try and answer some other questions soon. Thank you once more for taking interest. Leslaw Borowski From apandey at u.washington.edu Sun Sep 8 02:02:56 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 19:02:56 -0700 Subject: typing Sanskrit an other Indian languages Message-ID: <161227025910.23782.1846796184870486859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Leslaw Borowski wrote: In writing about a transliteration standard, it was stated: > II) What features should such a system of transcription possess? > I think it should: > > 2) It should not go against internationally accepted conventions of using > Roman script (like usage of capital letters). Let us not get mistaken by > names like INTRANS which are rather expression of aspiration (and tool of > promotion) than real respect for international conventions. What is meant by the second part about not "gettiog mistaken by names like INTRANS..."? Secondly, what is INTRANS? And why is it an expression of aspiration rather than an expression of respect for international conventions? And thirdly, what does respect for international conventions have to do with this matter? (Do international conventions actually exist?) Thank you. Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Sun Sep 8 10:12:08 1996 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 12:12:08 +0200 Subject: typing Sanskrit an other Indian languages Message-ID: <161227025912.23782.13999855542822550632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to Anshuman Pandeys questions: > > II) What features should such a system of transcription possess? > > I think it should: > > > > 2) It should not go against internationally accepted conventions of using > > Roman script (like usage of capital letters). Let us not get mistaken by > > names like INTRANS which are rather expression of aspiration (and tool of > > promotion) than real respect for international conventions. > > What is meant by the second part about not "gettiog mistaken by names like > INTRANS..."? Secondly, what is INTRANS? And why is it an expression of > aspiration rather than an expression of respect for international > conventions? And thirdly, what does respect for international conventions > have to do with this matter? (Do international conventions actually > exist?) Maybe, I used words which sound to sharp. Sorry, if I offended anybody. The name INTRANS suggests to me International Transcription and I think many net surfers while getting to a site presenting this scheme of transcription of Sanskrit into Roman script will get an impression the scheme is internationally accepted one. While I think it is all right to have international or universal aspirations I would rather avoid the names suggesting international acceptance of a project. The international convention I meant was the international scientific system transcription of Sanskrit (with diacritical marks above or below letters which I was trying to render with upper or lower strokes (respectively) after a respective letter. "Respect" can be undestood in pragmatic terms. The international scientific transcription is going to stay with us for some time. This is why I think some similarity of a transcription scheme meant for typing Sanskrit (and other Indian languages) to the scientific transcription makes the whole set of procedures more coherent. Thank you, Leslaw Borowski From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Sun Sep 8 12:46:08 1996 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 14:46:08 +0200 Subject: typing Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227025914.23782.5907981008864632999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is an answer to G. Huet who is a lexicographer and definitely a man of wast experience in rendering Sanskrit. I would not like to deny any of his statements. In fact, I lack knowledge on many issues G. Huet et other list members are aquainted with by daily practice. What I would like to suggest is not to lose of our sight the fact 1) there exist an international transcription of Sanskrit in Roman script and 2) net users which are not expert philologist and computer wizzard but would like to discuss Indian problems while using some system of transcription which is easy to learn, convenient to type, and close to the international transcription. > First of all, let us not confuse 3 completely different views of > computerized sanskrit: > 1. What actual keys you type on your keybord when inputing > 2. What ASCII characters get entered in the computer text file > 3. What printing characters you get when you process this file with > a text processing system, either on paper or on your computer screen. > > What happens at 1 is basically your own problem: no two keyboards are the same, > different operating systems interpret keys differently, you may customize your > favorite text editor with macro-characters, etc etc > No need of standardisation here, everyone manages his own input convention. I am glad to get support for my distinction between production and presentation and I think it is important to further distinguish between 1 and 2. I think many keyboards are very similar and the number of popular text editors is limited but principally it is true that one can customize this or that to get an expected result on a screen or paper. However customization requires some effort to choose, find and apply the right scheme. I would suspect not so many people would like to spend time for looking for it. A group of scholars would do it but not many others. Therefore for highly specific tasks it may be right to devote some time for convenient and high output means which have little to do with learned and intuitive practice of typing Sanskrit etc. However, for people who would not like to use customised but often inconvenient procedures while typing say a text in German or Polish about Indian words for this discussion list or "usenet news" it could be good to have a possibility of typing without using keys like ctrl and alt (I imagine in German you would have to use some of the keys very often). > 2 is important, because it is computer files which are shipped around and > processed by computer tools on which we must agree. But, as Dominik said > many times, it does not really matter what is the convention as long as it > is unambiguous, since these conventions are parseable with easy grammars > amenable to tools such as oak/sed/lex/yacc/perl etc to translate into each > other. > The second mode permits the TeX processing convention for diacritics, > so that my romanized transliteration at level 3 will be with standard > REAL diacritics (i.e. not prefix or infix, but two-dimensional with a nice > dot below the "s"). However, people don't use much TeX for less specific tasks. I am not sure it it ever will be as popular as Word or WordPerfect and I am not sure if it can be easily applied for post editor. I would like to thank for the explanation of point 2. It helped to realise the problems which are important. However, I don't quite know if it could be possible to accept a convention of write eg s_ instead of .s. Judgeing by D. Wujastyk and G. Huet words it could be possible. > I hope I did not add to the confusion... No, definitely not. You simply helped to realize the complexity of the problem. While my preocupation were points 3) and (a little) 1) G. Huet seems to concentrate on 2). I have to say I cannot give definitive answers on how one should render Hindi words. My general idea is the rendition should not be essentialy different from the proposed scheme for Sanskrit and it should take into account the existing patterns of romaniseing Hindi and other Indian languages. I don't feel I have enough of competence for it. I read Hindi only in commentaries to Sanskrit texts and they are in Indian scripts so I may not realise problems of transcription. I guess some list members felt I was to bold in proposing to render kh with a dot as x. I would like to adhere to the accepted scheme of transcription of Hindi but I did not have any contact with it so far. If somebody would like to develop BO beyond Sanskrit accepting the general lines of it please do. I am not sure if this could be a subject of general discussion on the list. Maybe it is better to shift it to private post. Thank you, Leslaw Borowski > > > > From jakub at unipune.ernet.in Mon Sep 9 18:49:47 1996 From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 13:49:47 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227025916.23782.10429557234388522691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to George Thompson for several good points he made. On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, George Thompson wrote: > DevanAgarI has taken on this sort of magical relationship with Sanskrit > not only for traditional Hindus, but also for Western devotees as well. Again, I'd like to stress that (save Western devotees) for many Hindus the script for Sanskrit is their respective local script. Scripts such as Kannada, Telugu, Bengali, Oriya, Malayali have the same syllabic structure, same alphabetic arrangement, same ultimate origin (brahmi), can represent all peculiarities of Sanskrit (clusters, visarga). They are still used for printing (and writing) Sanskrit. They were always used for writing Sanskrit on palm leaves. Only Tamil script is not capable to represent Sanskrit fully, but they have (and still print) their Grantha for that. So, once again, Devanagari is neither historically nor structurally more fit for Sanskrit than the others. The magical power rather is borne by the syllables themselves, not only by the letters that represent them. The syllables associated with some deity or whatever in a ritual that are written in some yantra are as well pronounced in a prayer - in both cases their magical power works. Even if you have a certain yantra prescribed with the letters in its various parts, in Bengal they will be written in Bengali, in Bihar in "Hindi" script - neither of them is less or more proper, they represent the same syllable. I intentionally wrote "Hindi" script, which is the term by which usually the common people call Devanagari, to stress that all these scripts are simply associated (and usually named after) with the contemporary languages primarily and secondarily any of them is used for Sanskrit. The fact that many present-day educated Indians (non-Sanskritists and many Hindivaale Sanskritists) think that Sanskrit's original script is Devanagari, because scholarly books are published in Devanagari (both in India and abroad). But this recent belief does not change anything. The smart alphabetical arrangement also does not originate from Devanagari but from the mind of the ancient linguists who, as has been quoted from Staal (I do not think it is something provocative, I always thought it was obvious and commonly held), were able to carry out such an abstract analysis thanks to not being mislead by script, as they operated directly with the sound of the language. All the scripts consequently inherited this alphabetical arrangement deviced _for the language_ > > To take one instance [in fact the one that started this thread]: our modern > habit of marking word boundaries with a space [as opposed to the devanAgarI > habit of overlooking them]. Our habit compels us to seek word boundaries > and to mark them. A writer [or reader] using devanAgarI is not so > compelled. As a result, with our writing system, we operate with a more or > less "padapATha" image of text, whereas with devanAgarI, we at least have > the option of visualizing a saMhitA text, an uninterrupted flow. This is a very correct observation which some scholars doing a research in religion, philosophy and unfortunately even literature do not realize which results in taking the word boundaries in a text edition for granted. That is why, recently, I called for texts being available in totally unanalysed form (even without word boundaries) besides an analyzed or half-analyzed (i.e. the usual) one. This would result in seeing the text as it is heared - sentence as a basic unit. The mentioned sentence-basic-unit-ness (sorry:-) is also reflected in the fact that even slight changes of sounds on word boundaries were very sensitively noticed and their regularity described into what we have as sandhi rules. There is "sandhi" between words in all languages I know, we just do not write them and are not so conscious about them. Jakub Cejka From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon Sep 9 14:04:46 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 15:04:46 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227025919.23782.13589184844807149488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >The smart alphabetical arrangement also does not originate from >Devanagari but from the mind of the ancient linguists who, as has been >quoted from Staal (I do not think it is something provocative, I always >thought it was obvious and commonly held), were able to carry out such an >abstract analysis thanks to not being mislead by script, as they operated >directly with the sound of the language. All the scripts consequently >inherited this alphabetical arrangement deviced _for the language_ The interesting bit is, of course, the lack of proper treatment of the sounds themselves, and the various symbolisms associated with them, in Western universities. While I don't know why this is the case, the result is that people, educated in the west, tend to think of Sanskrit/Vedic as just another language. For instance, if one knows/assumes/believes that, say, the sound 'ra' is the biija mantra for the agni tatva, AND one can pronounce its properly, one would probably see the raamaayaNa in a different perspective. As a physicist, I am a bit influenced by the primary importance of experiments; however, the establishment in Indology would perhaps think that one should stay 'aloof' from the language in order to study it 'properly'. I believe some famous Dutch Indologist said something about students, showing too much interest in what they were studying, being 'lost to scholarship'... I am sure the paNDita-s have many things to say on this issue. Bye, Girish Beeharry From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Sep 9 22:22:09 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 15:22:09 -0700 Subject: typing Sanskrit an other Indian languages Message-ID: <161227025925.23782.6137011574897880974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Leslaw Borowski wrote: > > I) Is it useful to have a Roman script transcription of Indic languages for > presentation (on a computer screen or in a printed form)? > I think it is. Reasons: I agree that it is useful to have Roman script transcription of Indic languages for computer screens. However, I think we must remember that the computer screen is, for all purposes, a different medium than paper. This has implications for some of the points below. > II) What features should such a system of transcription possess? > I think it should: > > 1) be close to traditional (especially internationally accepted) systems of > transcription for languages in question. This may be desirable, but here it is important to remember that the traditional system of transcription is meant for printed matter. Computers being more than a medium to present text, it is conceivable that a scheme evolved for computer screens differs widely in some repects from the accepted transliteration schemes. > * It would be no major problem if the same sounds were rendered by > different sets af signs in different languages (that is their respective > systems of transcriptions) especially when the languages are either very > different or spoken by people who leave far away from one another. You can > always mark the language the word belong to in case of doubt eg. skr. > > 2) It should not go against internationally accepted conventions of using > Roman script (like usage of capital letters). Let us not get mistaken by > names like INTRANS which are rather expression of aspiration (and tool of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You are talking of ITRANS, I suppose. > promotion) than real respect for international conventions. I beg to differ, especially on the use of capital letters. If an entire text is to be transcribed, there is no reason why conventions of Roman script should be strictly adhered to. The Roman script becomes simply a convenient medium to present a text in a non-European language. Conventions regarding the use of capital letters are not uniform. In English, one does not use the capital letter to begin every noun. In German, I still see the use of capital letters for every proper and common noun. I don't know how it is in Swedish or some other European language, but I can generally identify that a scientific paper is by an author from Europe, if it uses capital letters in words like "Sulphuric Acid" or "Carbon", even in the middle of a sentence. These words would not be capitalized by British, Indian and American authors, unless they occur at the beginning of the sentence. Given these differences in conventions among the traditional users of Roman script, I see nothing problematic with using capital letters for transcription, especially if there are easy software solutions that convert the transcribed text to an Indic script. These conventions are still ad-hoc, but the governing motive is ease of use, rather than any ambition for self-promotion. For example, in a web-page that talks of advaita and Sankara, it is tedious to use an extra sign (either before or after the s) every time. The resulting text also looks awkward. Neither ";Sa.nkara" nor "S;an.kara" is very appealing. It is easier to simply denote it as "S", and reserve the lower-case letter "s" for the sibilant. This is important because there is no key combination which will allow me to put the acute symbol on top of the letter s. This is not a problem for the print media. Right here is a major difference between computer key-boards and conventional print media. Similarly with the long vowels and the cerebral consonants. It becomes tedious to write "ii;sa", "aananda", "tiirtha", "ma.tha" etc. when I can easily write "ISa", "Ananda", "tIrtha", "maTha" and so on. You simply mark the language as Sanskrit or Hindi or whatever else, and cease to expect European conventions for the use of the Roman script. This peculiar use of capital letters, if accepted on a popular level, will just become another convention for computer-oriented use of the Roman script for Indic languages. There is no reason why transliteration conventions developed in the context of print media should restrict those developed for computer screens. For the sake of continuity, the existing conventions may be taken as normative, but need not become prescriptive. > 4) It should be relatively easy to type for many people (and not only to > a few martyrs who produce devanagari electronic texts and differ largely > in their ways; my high regards and thanks to them for their benedictine work) The use of capital letters satisfies this criterion too, does it not? There is no introduction of extra characters to serve as diacritical marks, and no bothering with whether the mark comes before or after a letter. All one has to do is to hold down the shift key, and the assignation of characters becomes very logical. a = a , shift-a = A, and so on. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Sep 9 17:07:00 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:07:00 +0100 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227025921.23782.9912359048905843729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > The interesting bit is, of course, the lack of proper treatment of the > sounds themselves, and the various symbolisms associated with them, in > Western universities. While I don't know why this is the case, the > result is that people, educated in the west, tend to think of > Sanskrit/Vedic as just another language. This is nonsense, of course, just as it would be nonsense to generalize about physicists (although this is one of my favourite pastimes!). People "educated in the West", especially those doing Indian studies, are all different, have different points of view, prejudices, and so on. Also, the vast majority of those "educated in the West" in Sanskrit and other indological subjects have spent long periods actually being educated in India, very often during the highly formative years of undergraduate and postgraduate studies. > For instance, if one knows/assumes/believes that, say, the sound 'ra' is > the biija mantra for the agni tatva, AND one can pronounce its properly, > one would probably see the raamaayaNa in a different perspective. Many, many Indian authors of the past disapproved strongly of such ideas about mantras and mantrasastra generally, viewing them as part of a sordid, impure, magical worldview. I am talking now about philosophers, poets, and many other "establishment" figures in Sanskrit literature. What one tends to get at university -- in India or outside -- if one is doing a course in Sanskrit, is a selection of texts from the "great" tradition of epics, upanisads, and kavya. The commentators of this Sanskritic tradition, for example Govindaraja on the Ramayana, Kulluka on Manu, or Mallinatha on Kalidasa, do not generally use ideas about the mantric meaning of "ra" or other letters as part of their explanations for the meanings of the texts. That is why university students and teachers don't think primarily in these terms either. Because they are moulded by the tradition itself. > As a physicist, I am a bit influenced by the primary importance of > experiments; however, the establishment in Indology would perhaps think > that one should stay 'aloof' from the language in order to study it > 'properly'. I believe some famous Dutch Indologist said something about > students, showing too much interest in what they were studying, being > 'lost to scholarship'... I'm afraid that claiming to be a "physicist" is -- to me personally -- like a red rag to a bull. To me it is an immediate disqualification for someone to have any opinion on anything meaningful. (Okay, so I overstate the case a teeny weeny bit. :-) I went through an education as a physicist myself, and it was only long after it was over, and I had spent several years in the humanities, that I consider I actually began to understand anything about scholarship, history, or rigorous thought. (You may notice that in the current statement about the aims of INDOLOGY, I cite a scientific background as a serious hindrance.) Anyone who has spent time studying the humanities seriously knows that the point of view you refer to is facile in the extreme. It is precisely those who have been able to develop a deep sensitivity and empathy for their subject-matter who are most able to contribute meaningfully to the subject in their writings. I think of the writings of Peter Brown, Isaiah Berlin, Ernst Gombrich, Johan Huizinga, and many, many others. In indology, examples of such high scholarship are not very common, but are nevertheless available. (This gets ticklish.) I would say that Hardy's _The religious culture of India_ is a major achievement in this sense. -- I'm going to stop now, since I find myself fingering all my favourite books on the shelf next to me, and to list them was not the aim of this message, but rather to point out that great scholarship always bears the stamp of long study, the organized presentation of substantial amounts of information, and above all an insightfulness borne of the ability to see below the surface. Best wishes, Dominik From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon Sep 9 17:40:58 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:40:58 +0100 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227025923.23782.7937414545218297104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, This is quite unconvincing. It is only your opinion; based on your 'deep sensitivity and empathy' for your subject. :-) >Many, many Indian authors of the past disapproved strongly of such ideas >about mantras and mantrasastra generally, viewing them as part of a >sordid, impure, magical worldview. I am talking now about philosophers, >poets, and many other "establishment" figures in Sanskrit literature. >What one tends to get at university -- in India or outside -- if one is >doing a course in Sanskrit, is a selection of texts from the "great" >tradition of epics, upanisads, and kavya. The commentators of this >Sanskritic tradition, for example Govindaraja on the Ramayana, Kulluka on >Manu, or Mallinatha on Kalidasa, do not generally use ideas about the >mantric meaning of "ra" or other letters as part of their explanations for >the meanings of the texts. That is why university students and teachers >don't think primarily in these terms either. Because they are moulded by >the tradition itself. Well, if you are closed to new ideas, which are not based on 'authority', then its pointless arguing about anything. As a physicist (former) you might remember that each time a new idea has been put forward in Physics, it has been said to be 'crazy'! For instance Bohr asked Feynman whether he understood quantum mechanics when the latter was explaing his new approach for the first time... :-) >I'm afraid that claiming to be a "physicist" is -- to me personally -- >like a red rag to a bull. To me it is an immediate disqualification for >someone to have any opinion on anything meaningful. (Okay, so I overstate >the case a teeny weeny bit. :-) I went through an education as a >physicist myself, and it was only long after it was over, and I had spent >several years in the humanities, that I consider I actually began to >understand anything about scholarship, history, or rigorous thought. (You >may notice that in the current statement about the aims of INDOLOGY, I >cite a scientific background as a serious hindrance.) The mere fact of your using email/computers etc is a way of attesting to the 'rigorous' thinking of physicists. It is all based on very serious thinking in Quantum Mechanics. >Anyone who has spent time studying the humanities seriously knows that the >point of view you refer to is facile in the extreme. It is precisely >those who have been able to develop a deep sensitivity and empathy for >their subject-matter who are most able to contribute meaningfully to the >subject in their writings. Yes, but has it got anything to do with reality? How do you know that they are right? Is it because they write well? Or they are 'distinguished' orientalists from a 'prestigious' university? What 'experiments' can you do to convince a reader that you actually know what you are writing about? Indology is not like Mathematics, where internal consistency is of primary importance, but more like Physics. After all, both Indologists and physicists are trying to 'grasp' reality (in the etymological sense), no? I am apologetic for the low Indological content of my message! Bye, Girish Beeharry From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Tue Sep 10 14:36:14 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 07:36:14 -0700 Subject: milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025945.23782.16089326594632978249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can think of MANY examples in folktales, ballads and epics in India where the hero(ine) ingests milk, usually squirted in a continuous stream, from the breast, usually of his/her mother, and usually this proves the identity (as son/daughter) of the recipiant (rather than the blessing or grace indicated in the Bernard example). But other relationships may also exist. As oral tradition, it is difficult to date this material, and European (esp. Roman Catholic via missionaries) influences are possible. However, the motif is widespread and well-integrated into the stories in most cases. Peter J. Claus Department of Anthropology California State University, Hayward FAX: (510) 704-9636 From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Tue Sep 10 14:10:33 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:10:33 -0500 Subject: Milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025943.23782.11739000858155879532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Milk and Hindu Saint ************************ The most famous milk legend is that of the Tevaram saint, Tirugnanasambandhar (7th century A.D.) born at Seerkazhi in Tanjore district. He is one of the foremost leaders of Tamil Bhakti movement. It is said that Goddess Parvathi fed the Baby Saint at age three at the steps of the village temple tank while his parents were having a dip. After the bath, the father sees few drops of milk on the child's face and shouts "Who fed you?". Pointing finger at the Siva and Parvathi (rishaba ArOhaNa murti) statue in the Gopura, Gnanasambandhar started singing the praise of Siva rightaway. His known name seems to commemorate this event- the one who is connected/bestowed with "jn~Ana". There are several nice translations of his works and his legend is detailed in 12th century Chola age Saiva hagiography, Periyapuranam. 1) V. Dehejia Slaves of the Lord: The path of the Tamil Saints. Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1988 206 p. 48 p. of plates 2) G. Vanmikanathan Periya Puranam, a Tamil classic on the great Saiva Saints of South India. Madras: Sri Ramakrishna Math, 1985, 578 p. 3) Indira Peterson, Poems of Siva, Princeton university press, 1989 From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Tue Sep 10 13:14:59 1996 From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:14:59 -0400 Subject: milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025936.23782.17892901010350701925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> closer to home: what about Herakles and Hera/ Milky Way? M.W. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Sep 10 08:57:44 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:57:44 +0100 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227025928.23782.11090860894950327873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > This is quite unconvincing. It is only your opinion; based on your 'deep > sensitivity and empathy' for your subject. :-) Oh, I wish! If only I *had* written something of that calibre. But actually, I was talking about the sensitivity of those scholars I most admire, and who have contributed most substantially to our understanding of the past. > Well, if you are closed to new ideas, which are not based on > 'authority', then its pointless arguing about anything. As a physicist > (former) you might remember that each time a new idea has been put > forward in Physics, it has been said to be 'crazy'! For instance Bohr > asked Feynman whether he understood quantum mechanics when the latter > was explaing his new approach for the first time... :-) Oh dear. You've taken umbridge. I'm sorry, I must have come across more strongly than I intended. I apologise. But actually, I don't quite understand how what you say here relates to my message. Bohr could be a boor, certainly. > The mere fact of your using email/computers etc is a way of attesting to > the 'rigorous' thinking of physicists. It is all based on very serious > thinking in Quantum Mechanics. I'm not saying scientists are bad at science and technology; I'm saying they are often bad at humanistic scholarship. Such is the contemporary prestige of science and technology that those trained in these subjects tend to think their training is more general than it really is. That's why, in my opinion, we are these days subjected to a flood of feeble books by scientists claiming to reveal "the mind of God" and so forth. The current culture of science can be very arrogant. Rigorous thinking is not the prerogative of physicists. And anyway, Shannon and Weaver, who probably contributed more than anyone to the theoretical underpinning of the systems we use for electronic informaion interchange today, were engineers by profession, not theoretical physicists. And quantum mechanics doesn't come into it at all. The contemporary development of computer communications has much more to do with hardware and software engineering, i.e., technology, than with theoretical physics. > Yes, but has it got anything to do with reality? How do you know that > they are right? Is it because they write well? Or they are > 'distinguished' orientalists from a 'prestigious' university? What > 'experiments' can you do to convince a reader that you actually know > what you are writing about? > > Indology is not like Mathematics, where internal consistency is of > primary importance, but more like Physics. After all, both Indologists > and physicists are trying to 'grasp' reality (in the etymological > sense), no? No. I would say indology is more like philosophy and history than either mathematics or physics. You are suggesting that all intellectual endeavour has to be either formal or empirical. But as Isaiah Berlin argued years ago ("The Purpose of Philosophy" reprinted in _Concepts & Categories: Philosophical Essays_, OUP, 1980.) there is a third "pi.taka" into which questions may fall: precisely those questions for which the means of finding the answer is neither through formal rules, nor through empirical observation. And that is a reasonably plausible definition of philosophy. Indology comprises writing in many different categories, some empirical, some formal, some philosophical, and so forth. Best wishes, Dominik From phijag at zelacom.com Tue Sep 10 13:58:26 1996 From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 09:58:26 -0400 Subject: milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025940.23782.9833193861315073955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Indologists, > > Sorry to interrupt the useful exchange on pc fonts with an >amateurish question. Part of my research deals with the use of the five >senses in Christian though and imagery, especially taste, touch and smell. >I am at present studying the theme of the lactation of Saint Bernard, an >apocryphal legend which appeared from the 12th century onwards, less than >a hundred years after Bernard's death, and spread throughout Christianity. >In a vision the Virgin Mary herself pressed her breast to give some of her >milk to saint Bernard. There are many versions, texts and images; in some >it is a statue of the Virgin, rather than the Virgin herself, who sends >her milk; some versions of the legend mention three drops, while images, >from the 13th to the 17th century, tend to show a continuous jet of milk >directed to the saint's lips. In the traditional interpretation the scene >stands as an expression of the divine eloquence bestowed upon Bernard who >was acclaimed as a defender of the Virgin. > >I am not trying to track down influences, but would like to know if the >story, or rather the ideas on which it is based, appear only in the West. >I know that the statues of Hindu gods have swallowed rather than projected >milk, but I would be very curious to know if stories similar to Saint >Bernard's lactation have ever circulated in Hindu literature. If so how >was the taste and meaning of milk described? How distinct is it from cow >milk? > > My anticipated thanks for any suggestion. > > > Francois Quiviger > Warburg Institute > University of London > Two incidents in the Indian tradition which come immediately to mind are: 1) Shankaracharya was fed milk from the Devi's breast when he was 3 years old and 2) the child saint Jnanasambandar was given milk in a silver cup by the Devi. John From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Tue Sep 10 15:38:44 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 10:38:44 -0500 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025947.23782.1459469749401187219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order ******************************** Why are the Sanskrit vowels and consonants arranged into separate groups? This question is important becausee in other Indo-European languages this order is not found. Is this order derived after ancient Indo-Europeans came in contact with the then residents of India, (Dravidians?). Any pointers or references? N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 10 09:45:47 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 10:45:47 +0100 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227025930.23782.222271580985338893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >Oh, I wish! If only I *had* written something of that calibre. But >actually, I was talking about the sensitivity of those scholars I most >admire, and who have contributed most substantially to our understanding >of the past. I was just trying to be funny so that you calm down to your ground state! :-) >Oh dear. You've taken umbridge. I'm sorry, I must have come across more >strongly than I intended. I apologise. But actually, I don't quite >understand how what you say here relates to my message. Bohr could be a >boor, certainly. Not at all! No need to apologize, please. The reason for which I mentioned Bohr is that he was one of the first to see the fundamental problems of quantum physics. Yet, even he failed to see the radically new ideas of Feynman. >I'm not saying scientists are bad at science and technology; I'm saying >they are often bad at humanistic scholarship. Such is the contemporary >prestige of science and technology that those trained in these subjects >tend to think their training is more general than it really is. That's >why, in my opinion, we are these days subjected to a flood of feeble books >by scientists claiming to reveal "the mind of God" and so forth. The >current culture of science can be very arrogant. Rigorous thinking is not >the prerogative of physicists. I could not agree more! So let us take a concrete example and see how you paNDitas think: Suppose you read that Goraknaatha says that if one gazes at one's nose tip, the flow of thought is arrested. How do you understand this statement? a) You read what all the 'great' people heve said on it and try to make a synthesis of their thoughts. b) You go through the literature and try to find other similar statements by other people. c) You try to figure out what Goraknaatha means by this statement (and write a paper on that:-). d) You actually try to do what he says and see whether it is all nonsense. You, very probably, will have many other options. I would try option 'd' first! >theoretical physicists. And quantum mechanics doesn't come into it at all. Yes it does. An electron has a finite probability of going through a piece of matter, although classically it is not 'supposed' to do that. All trnsistors are based on this fact. >No. I would say indology is more like philosophy and history than either >mathematics or physics. You are suggesting that all intellectual >endeavour has to be either formal or empirical. But as Isaiah Berlin >argued years ago ("The Purpose of Philosophy" reprinted in _Concepts & >Categories: Philosophical Essays_, OUP, 1980.) there is a third "pi.taka" >into which questions may fall: precisely those questions for which the >means of finding the answer is neither through formal rules, nor through >empirical observation. And that is a reasonably plausible definition of >philosophy. Indology comprises writing in many different categories, some >empirical, some formal, some philosophical, and so forth. I agree, and a very careful study of the akshara 'ra' will involve formal and empirical thought as well as this third 'piTaka'. You don't have to believe me about the importance of 'ra', of course! :-) Again, I wish to apologize for the low Indological content of this message! Bye, Girish Beeharry From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue Sep 10 09:58:36 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 10:58:36 +0100 Subject: milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025932.23782.17047770969778029863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Sorry to interrupt the useful exchange on pc fonts with an amateurish question. Part of my research deals with the use of the five senses in Christian though and imagery, especially taste, touch and smell. I am at present studying the theme of the lactation of Saint Bernard, an apocryphal legend which appeared from the 12th century onwards, less than a hundred years after Bernard's death, and spread throughout Christianity. In a vision the Virgin Mary herself pressed her breast to give some of her milk to saint Bernard. There are many versions, texts and images; in some it is a statue of the Virgin, rather than the Virgin herself, who sends her milk; some versions of the legend mention three drops, while images, from the 13th to the 17th century, tend to show a continuous jet of milk directed to the saint's lips. In the traditional interpretation the scene stands as an expression of the divine eloquence bestowed upon Bernard who was acclaimed as a defender of the Virgin. I am not trying to track down influences, but would like to know if the story, or rather the ideas on which it is based, appear only in the West. I know that the statues of Hindu gods have swallowed rather than projected milk, but I would be very curious to know if stories similar to Saint Bernard's lactation have ever circulated in Hindu literature. If so how was the taste and meaning of milk described? How distinct is it from cow milk? My anticipated thanks for any suggestion. Francois Quiviger Warburg Institute University of London From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Sep 10 10:20:18 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 11:20:18 +0100 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227025934.23782.1409380103717718657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > I could not agree more! So let us take a concrete example and see how > you paNDitas think: Suppose you read that Goraknaatha says that if one > gazes at one's nose tip, the flow of thought is arrested. How do you > understand this statement? Gorakhanaatha is part of a tantric/alchemical milieu in which mystical/mantric/magic interpretations are de rigeur. Your previous example was of the "ra" in Ramayana, which is a different genre entirely. You have to use interpretative techniques which are appropriate to the subject matter under discussion. >> And quantum mechanics doesn't come into it at all. > Yes it does. An electron has a finite probability of going through a > piece of matter, although classically it is not 'supposed' to do that. > All trnsistors are based on this fact. Oooohhh no it doesn't. I wondered whether you would fall for this line when I wrote what I wrote: you have missed my point about the difference between technology and science. The theoretical physics of quantum electron behaviour has nothing to do with the technical and engineering developments which have made email a practical reality. The history of 20th cent. science shows the distinction between scientific and technological development clearly in many fields. The computer networks and so on have been developed using transistor technology, certainly, but they *assume* the solution of necessary theoretical problems, and do not re-solve them as part of technological implementation. > I agree, and a very careful study of the akshara 'ra' will involve > formal and empirical thought as well as this third 'piTaka'. This is getting too bizarre. I'm signing off on this topic now. \Bye. Dominik From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue Sep 10 13:52:29 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 14:52:29 +0100 Subject: milk, taste and eloquence Message-ID: <161227025938.23782.14914636903158836161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 witzel at husc3.harvard.edu wrote: > > closer to home: what about Herakles and Hera/ Milky Way? > > M.W. Yes, but with Herakles we are in mythology rather than in hagiography or history. Furthermore, in this tale, milk is not granted as a reward from a God to a mortal, as in Saint Bernard's case, but from a god to a semi-god. In fact Hera had been tricked by Hermes, and when she discovered whom she was nursing, she pulled Herakles of her breast (the Milky Way was formed from the excess milk that spurted out>. In any case, many thanks for the suggestion. F.Q. From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Sep 10 21:40:24 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 17:40:24 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025950.23782.5841874169761923963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George: > DevanAgarI has taken on this sort of magical relationship with Sanskrit > not only for traditional Hindus, but also for Western devotees as well. Jakub: The magical power rather is borne by the syllables themselves, not only by the letters that represent them. Considering the all important mono-syllable "Om", I find that the Tamil writing of this syllable has a much more "magical", numinous, and visually arresting quality than its Devanagari counterpart. -Srini. From sani at ling.unipi.it Tue Sep 10 18:02:34 1996 From: sani at ling.unipi.it (sani at ling.unipi.it) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 19:02:34 +0100 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025948.23782.4208874724254397042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order > ******************************** > >Why are the Sanskrit vowels and consonants arranged into separate >groups? This question is important becausee in other Indo-European >languages this order is not found. Is this order derived after >ancient Indo-Europeans came in contact with the then residents >of India, (Dravidians?). > >Any pointers or references? > >N. Ganesan >nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov No, it depends on the accurate phonetic analysis made by the ancient indian phoneticians of the sanskrit language. On the basis of this analysis was created the script which already in the III sec. b. C. (on the Asokan inscriptions) apperas on these principles From thompson at jlc.net Wed Sep 11 03:03:11 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 23:03:11 -0400 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025955.23782.13672917347241596959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I agree with Saverio Sani's response to N. Ganesan's query, it occurred to me that a more detailed response might be of use to N. Ganesan and to the rest of us. First of all, not being competent myself in Dravidian linguistics, I would ask those who are to recommend literature on the relationship between Skt. grammarians and their Dravidian counterparts. I suppose the question that is on Ganesan's mind is the direction of influence [if any]: which way? As for the arrangement of Skt. vowels and consonants, that is a very impressive achievement indeed [presumably of the Skt grammarians, without anybody's influence]. The vowels are arranged by point of articulation [back of the vocal apparatus to front], as are the consonants [from gutturals to labials: also back to front]. Of course, consonants are also grouped by manner of articulation [first the voiceless variant followed by its aspirate, then the voiced variant, followed by its aspirate, and then the corresponding nasal]. I confess that I do not remember who said what, but it has been frequently observed that credit for the transparent and lucid structure of Sanskrit should *not* be credited to the language itself, but rather to the grammarians who took the trouble to make that structure transparent by analyzing it so lucidly [the same applies to the scripts, as Gail Coelho and others have already suggested]. The point [not mine] is that the phonology of Sanskrit is not more logical and coherent than that of other languages. Rather, it is the analysis of the Sanskrit grammarians that is more incisive and penetrating. The answer to Ganesan's question, tnen, is that this sort of linguistic sophistication does not appear to be an inheritance from IE, nor a borrowing from Dravidian grammarians [as far as I know], but is attributable directly to the Snaskrit grammarians themselves [descendents, I would argue, of the Vedic poets, also connoisseurs of Sanskrit]. W.S. Allen's book "Phonetics in Ancient India" touches on many of these issues. best wishes, George Thompson From thillaud at unice.fr Tue Sep 10 23:49:35 1996 From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 01:49:35 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025951.23782.13325705009439417348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, >Considering the all important mono-syllable "Om", I find >that the Tamil writing of this syllable has a much more >"magical", numinous, and visually arresting quality than >its Devanagari counterpart. Je suis desole de devoir intervenir ici malgre mon respect de la religion et de la mystique indienne, mais il faut rappeler encore une fois que les langues preexistent a leur ecriture (et en Inde plus encore qu'en Occident). De plus, l'imagination n'a pas de limites et on peut toujours tout retrouver dans tout. Je le prouve avec "Om": 1) Ces deux lettres representent la conjonction du feminin (la rondeur du "O" est celle de la vulve ouverte ou du ventre qui porte un enfant) et du masculin (le "m" c'est deux jambes et un penis qui pend, c'est aussi l'initiale de "man", "masculin", "macho", etc.). Reunion des opposes complementaires elles sont donc l'image de la totalite. 2) Elles sont l'image du monde: par une symetrie on trouve "MO", les premieres lettres de l'italien "mondo" ou du francais "monde"; par une rotation on trouve "WO", les premieres lettres de l'anglais "world". 3) Si on decompose en "Aum", on trouve l'image de la bete a cornes (naturellement renversee car elle vient d'etre sacrifiee), la coupe dans laquelle son sang est recueilli et le sacrificateur lui-meme (deux jambes et un couteau). La syllabe represente donc le sacrifice qui unit le monde divin et le monde des hommes. 4) etc. C'est trop facile et tout-a-fait vain. Les systemes d'ecriture sont des conventions *ajoutees* aux langues par des hommes, ils ne sont pas des revelations divines et n'ont donc *rien* a nous reveler! Il n'en reste pas moins que le choix d'une ecriture satisfaisante pour le sanscrit est un probleme difficile et que j'observe avec passion le debat des indologistes sur ce sujet. PS: s'il est dur pour vous de lire le francais, pensez qu'il a ete dur pour moi de l'ecrire sans diacritiques (il n'y a pas qu'en sanscrit que l'imperialisme anglo-saxon pose des problemes :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis email : thillaud at unice.fr From thompson at jlc.net Wed Sep 11 11:35:30 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 07:35:30 -0400 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025961.23782.11979360379730009052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Anand Venkt Raman's note: >This is probably not fully correct as the Dravidian influence on >Sanskrit was felt much earlier on than the first grammatical works in >it. The most conspicuous pointer to it is the presence of retroflex >stops in Sanskrit which is not found in other IE languages, but is >found in Dravidian. > >-& I think that the context shows that I was referring to grammatical traditions, not languages. An important distinction. My impression is that Ganesan wanted to know where the tradition of grammatical analysis came from, *not* where retroflexes came from. As for the latter, I think that H.H. Hock has shown that it is not at all obvious that they came into Skt. from Dravidian. GT From thompson at jlc.net Wed Sep 11 11:41:26 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 07:41:26 -0400 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025963.23782.10772471978181270602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the extra posting, but I forgot to add that I do think that bilingualism may have been a factor in the development of the Skt. grammatical tradition. Perhaps this is what Anand Venkt Raman had in mind? GT From thompson at jlc.net Wed Sep 11 12:44:33 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 08:44:33 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025967.23782.14000626500360145031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I myself don't have anything personal against the French language, and in fact I welcome it to this list. But it seems strange to me to suggest that those young francophones who use English on the Internet are somehow "illetrees." Au contraire.... I also have to disagree with Dominique Thillaud. While writing systems are obviously "*ajoutees* aux langues par des hommes" [this is repeated over and over again since Saussure], the study of them can reveal a great deal to us [I think the francophone Derrida has also thought so]. Bonjour, GT From jage at loc.gov Wed Sep 11 13:31:56 1996 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 09:31:56 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit Alpha. Order Message-ID: <161227025972.23782.6476996043065303804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, September 11, 1996 A related question could be: Which came first: a. Writing? or b. Phonetic analysis followed by logical arrangements of the units of speech? If writing came first, what was the previous order of the units of writing? If the analysis came before writing their efforts are all the more impressive. The above may well oversimplify things--it is as likely that both the analysis and writing co-occured/evolved over a fairly long period. We shall probably never know due to lack of data but we can ask. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. From athr at loc.gov Wed Sep 11 13:52:08 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 09:52:08 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025973.23782.16540069544537700706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Dominique Thillaud wrote: > Bonjour, > >Considering the all important mono-syllable "Om", I find > >that the Tamil writing of this syllable has a much more > >"magical", numinous, and visually arresting quality than > >its Devanagari counterpart. > Je suis desole de devoir intervenir ici malgre mon respect de la > religion et de la mystique indienne, mais il faut rappeler encore une fois > que les langues preexistent a leur ecriture (et en Inde plus encore qu'en > Occident). > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis > email : thillaud at unice.fr Is it really true that languages preexist (chronologicall) their scripts? The Latin alphabet preexisted English, French, Spanish, etc. This seems to be taking a Boas-Levi-Straussian orthodoxy a bit far. Then there is the evidence that writing influences not just written but spoken language (even if in accord with the aforementioned orthodoxy it at least shouldn't). Who was that Czech linguist who showed how in both English and Czech the written representations of conventional sounds that aren't precisely words and don't fit into the phonemics of the language, such as "tsk, tsk" to represent a tongue-clicking of reproach and "ahem" to represent a discreet cough, in turn become actually pronounced as spelled and are themselves used as interjections in addition to the original ones. Allen Thrasher From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Wed Sep 11 02:05:46 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Pullat Devadas Das Menon) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 10:05:46 +0800 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025953.23782.5962955648404534439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One possible explanation is that the alphabets are always following the order of guttaral to labial. This can be seen very distinctly in the consonents. THe "ka" group as a guttaral sound and the 'pa' group as a labial sound. Regards...Das At 04:44 PM 9/10/96 BST, Ganesan wrote: > > > Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order > ******************************** > >Why are the Sanskrit vowels and consonants arranged into separate >groups? This question is important becausee in other Indo-European >languages this order is not found. Is this order derived after >ancient Indo-Europeans came in contact with the then residents >of India, (Dravidians?). > >Any pointers or references? > >N. Ganesan >nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov > > > From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Sep 11 14:25:33 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 10:25:33 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025975.23782.15094282968501874559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although Dominik did not emphasize it, let me express my probably foolish opinion: While it is perhaps imperialistic -- or *can* be imperialistic -- to write in English and assume that everyone can do so, and can read it, there should be no reason why one should not write in the language in which they are most comfortable. BUT: like it or not, English is becoming, or has already become, THE world language, de facto at least. Indologists who write in French or German are most welcome; I will happily read their work, and perhaps most, or many, of the members of this list will as well. But such writers must accept the fact that they are limiting their audience from the get go (and this in a field where the audience is rather limited no matter what language one writes in, if one might confess it). I do not mean to imply that this is not something our non-native English speaking colleagues are unaware of; I fear they are all too aware of it as a problem. But one thing those of us who are native speakers *can* do is help those non-natives who want to publish / write in English all we can. Perhaps if a post in another language comes along that one of us can read, but fears others cannot, he/she can just sit down and tap out a translation? I suspect that everyone would be grateful for the help. Anyway, just a few silly comments. Sorry to waste your time with them. jonathan From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Sep 11 14:34:33 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 10:34:33 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025977.23782.334298292013604068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I see that G Huet's comments have rendered mine null. Apologies. Jonathan Silk From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Sep 11 14:53:16 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 10:53:16 -0400 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025979.23782.14578452378962638344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, >Considering the all important mono-syllable "Om", I find >that the Tamil writing of this syllable has a much more >"magical", numinous, and visually arresting quality than >its Devanagari counterpart. Je suis desole de devoir intervenir ici malgre mon respect de la religion et de la mystique indienne, mais il faut rappeler encore une fois que les langues preexistent a leur ecriture (et en Inde plus encore qu'en Occident). De plus, l'imagination n'a pas de limites et on peut toujours tout retrouver dans tout. Je le prouve avec "Om": 1) Ces deux lettres representent la conjonction du feminin (la rondeur du "O" est celle de la vulve ouverte ou du ventre qui porte un enfant) et du masculin (le "m" c'est deux jambes et un penis qui pend, c'est aussi l'initiale de "man", "masculin", "macho", etc.). Reunion des opposes complementaires elles sont donc l'image de la totalite. 2) Elles sont l'image du monde: par une symetrie on trouve "MO", les premieres lettres de l'italien "mondo" ou du francais "monde"; par une rotation on trouve "WO", les premieres lettres de l'anglais "world". 3) Si on decompose en "Aum", on trouve l'image de la bete a cornes (naturellement renversee car elle vient d'etre sacrifiee), la coupe dans laquelle son sang est recueilli et le sacrificateur lui-meme (deux jambes et un couteau). La syllabe represente donc le sacrifice qui unit le monde divin et le monde des hommes. 4) etc. C'est trop facile et tout-a-fait vain. Les systemes d'ecriture sont des conventions *ajoutees* aux langues par des hommes, ils ne sont pas des revelations divines et n'ont donc *rien* a nous reveler! Il n'en reste pas moins que le choix d'une ecriture satisfaisante pour le sanscrit est un probleme difficile et que j'observe avec passion le debat des indologistes sur ce sujet. PS: s'il est dur pour vous de lire le francais, pensez qu'il a ete dur pour moi de l'ecrire sans diacritiques (il n'y a pas qu'en sanscrit que l'imperialisme anglo-saxon pose des problemes :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis email : thillaud at unice.fr Well, well, this is all Greek and Latin to me ;-) Puerile that I am, I can only understand the "keywords" above in 1) !!! And I know French only to the extent of recognizing "sil vouz plait" as probable bad English pronunciation of the words "silver plate"... So, parding your beggon, dear dominique of the very nice university, would you please translate this for me... you can send me e-mail if it is too embarrassing to write English on this list ;-) >>l'imperialisme anglo-saxon Aah! I see a red flag here... Anglo-Saxon imperialism... thank heavens for that... otherwise, I wouldn't be writing here in this manner. Begging-the-esteeemed-list-members'-indulgence, -Srini. From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Wed Sep 11 11:33:15 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 11:33:15 +0000 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025959.23782.11378524113926749763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > PS: s'il est dur pour vous de lire le francais, pensez qu'il a ete >dur pour moi de l'ecrire sans diacritiques (il n'y a pas qu'en sanscrit que >l'imperialisme anglo-saxon pose des problemes :-) > Tout a fait d'accord avec vous cher collegue! Et il nous faudra urgemment trouver une solution a ce probleme avant que les jeunes generations francophones ne deviennent totalement illetrees... Au passage: la solution de ce probleme pourrait nous amener un certain nombre d'eclairages nouveaux dans le domaine de l'indologie car une transliteration latine "universelle" du sanscrit existe bel et bien (elle a ete fixee par le Xeme congres des orientalistes a Geneve en 1894) et elle n'implique qu'au fond relativement peu de diacritiques. Les informaticiens pourraient donc faire un petit effort, a moins que cette tache soit plus difficile que d'envoyer une navette spatiale :-) Mes excuses envers nos collegues non-francophones pour avoir utilise cette langue dans cette communication. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Wed Sep 11 17:29:50 1996 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 12:29:50 -0500 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025984.23782.3914587155757936700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: > So, parding your beggon, dear dominique of the very > nice university, would you please translate this for me... > you can send me e-mail if it is too embarrassing to > write English on this list ;-) > > >>l'imperialisme anglo-saxon > > Aah! I see a red flag here... Anglo-Saxon imperialism... > thank heavens for that... otherwise, I wouldn't be writing > here in this manner. I agree with Srini in not being too sympathetic to the French cause. As a matter of fact, both French and English represent imperialism to some of us on this list. Given that the majority of the world's countries have had to accept the fact that their own cultures and languages have been superseded by various European ones -- French, English, Spanish, etc. -- I dont see why the French cant now accept the fact that their language has been superseded by English. Gail Coelho. From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 11 11:48:23 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 12:48:23 +0100 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025965.23782.15714033906029412438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Messieurs/Sirs, Par egard pour les nombreux membres non-francophones sur cette liste, je vous demanderais de bien vouloir joindre une traduction a vos messages. Merci. Out of respect for the many non-french speaking members of this list, I would ask you to please add a translation to your emails. Thanks. Au revoir/bye, Girish Beeharry From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Sep 11 18:20:58 1996 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 13:20:58 -0500 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025982.23782.12302220981384988014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a few *brief* remarks 1) The relation between scripts and major living Indian languages is a fact to be acknowledged: Tamil has had its own specific script for centuries, and the fact that ancient Tamil inscriptions can been found written in a form of Asoka's Brahmi is irrelevant, as a perusal of the scholarly editions of Tamil masterpieces would show. The same goes for other languages. 2) To S. Vidyasankar's, G. Huet's and others' judicious remarks, we may add that in Tamil, spaces are often used not to separate words, but metrical units (ciir). Alliterations, too, are much easier to appreciate when the Tamil script is used. The fact that certain letters cannot occur in certain positions in Tamil grammar helps separate words. 3) While mystical interpretations of scripts (in India or in Semitic or other traditions) are very interesting, one must remember that the association of Indian languages to their respective scripts is based on historical or cultural reasons, and esoteric speculation forms only a small part of these reasons. On the other hand such speculations do lead to very popular metaphors that no indologist can afford to ignore: isn't the script relevant in part to the epithet `praNava svarUpa vakra tu.mDam' for GaNapati? Doesn't every indologist know why? Besides, would anyone seriously say that one can claim to know Tamil without knowing its script? How many Sanskrit scholars are there, who cannot read one of the Indian scripts used for Skt? 4) The remarks from our French-speaking colleagues are quite interesting, if we compare them to the recent discussion on the languages of India. Just as English is not *universally* used in the Indology community, Sanskrit is not the only scholarly language in the country, and Hindi is not the lingua franca of the subcontinent. In the same vein, I have also seen people suggesting that scientists should adopt Latin as a common language... In an interdisciplinary subject such as indology, consensus on conventions may be difficult. It is important to keep the goal in focus (as many contributors to this discussion have), namely communication, not arbitrary uniformization. S. Kichenassamy School of Mathematics U. of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu Resume en francais: 1) Qu'on le veuille ou non, les langues vivantes indiennes ont chacune leur ecriture propre, qui s'impose aux indianistes. 2) En complement aux remarques judicieuses de S. Vidyasankar, G. Huet, ... on peut signaler que les espaces en Tamoul poetique separent non les mots, mais les unites metriques. La structure poetique (versification, rimes, assonances) est bien plus facile a comprendre si l'on utilise les caracteres T. 3) Il semble que le probleme des interpretations mystiques soit marginal (dans ce debat-ci). L'ecriture associee a une langue s'impose avant tout par des raisons historiques et culturelles, et l'indianisme est cense *etudier* l'Inde telle qu'elle est. Les aspects esoteriques, ici comme ailleurs, doivent prendre la place qu'ils ont de fait dans la litterature. 4) Il est interessant de noter le parallele entre l'affirmation que l'anglais doit etre *universellement* adopte par les universitaires du monde entier et celle qui consiste a dire que le Sanskrit est la seule langue qui donne acces a la culture indienne, ou que tous les Indiens devraient parler Hindi. Il serait utile de promouvoir la *communication*, et de faire en sorte que (en l'occurrence) les travaux de l'ecole francaise soient mieux connus si necessaire, en soulignant, dans une langue ou une autre, l'utilite et l'actualite de la contribution de l'ecole indianiste francaise. SK From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 11 20:27:31 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 13:27:31 -0700 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227025986.23782.4985889035649396264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Now my other point was: is that really so difficult for the >computer industry to respect other cultural points of view than the >anglo-saxon one or is it just bad will? Consider this: there are some email >addresses inside our University's LAN I can't write to in correct french >because the gateways (Unix based?) do not allow french accentuation (and we >are in the heart of the Swiss french-speaking aera). Ridiculous... > I think the computer industry now has to make a big effort of >reflection on this point or do we (indologists, french-, german-, hindi-, >japanese- etc speakers) have to do it for them and work on matters that >are actually not our primary task? >Francois Voegeli >Fac. des lettres >Section de langues et civilisations orientales >Universite de Lausanne >BFSH 2 >CH-1015 I think it was just plain lack of foresight, together with the absence of a more global perspective, something that, historically, is very common in whatever country is a world power at any given moment (whether it be Spain, France, Britain, the U.S., or any other country). As the ground work for the personal computers we use today was laid in the United States, those who did it where not thinking beyond the needs of the English language. As a native speaker of Spanish, I always found it ridiculous that something that is so simple on a typewriter, namely writing accents, or adding a dot above or below a letter, becomes an impossible task on a desktop computer. I learned from a computer-literate friend of mine that the reason has to do with how the ASCII characters were initially established, and that, at this point, changing them would be too complicated. So we need to rely on specially designed fonts. Could someone else throw more light on this? Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Sep 11 12:50:13 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 13:50:13 +0100 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025968.23782.859171178488428987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > Out of respect for the many non-french speaking members of this list, I > would ask you to please add a translation to your emails. Thanks. Please note that this request does not represent the policy of this discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, with or without translation. No disrespect to anyone will be implied by this. Posters will need to make their own judgements about what limitations this might put on their readership. Postings in classical Sanskrit are *very* welcome. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Wed Sep 11 14:56:57 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 14:56:57 +0000 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227025981.23782.5354225102256227385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 sept 1996 13:07 +0100, Girish Beehary wrote: >Par egard pour les nombreux membres non-francophones sur cette liste, je vous >demanderais de bien vouloir joindre une traduction a vos messages. Merci. >Out of respect for the many non-french speaking members of this list, I would >ask you to please add a translation to your emails. Thanks. My apologies (again) to the non-french speaking members of the list. Here it is (with a translation of Dominique Thillaud's text I answered): > PS: if it is difficult for you to read french, think that it was >difficult for me to write it without diacriticals (not only in sanskrit does >the anglo-saxon imperialism make problems :-) I totally agree with you, dear colleague! And we must urgently find a solution to this problem before young french-speaking generations turn totally illiterate... By the way: the solution could give us new highlights in the field of indology because a "universal" latin transcription of sanskrit indeeds exists (it was agreed upon during the Xth Orientalist Conference in Geneva in 1894) and it actually uses a limited set of diacriticals. The computer scientists could make a little bit of an effort or is this job more difficult than to send the space shuttle in orbit :-) My apologies to the non-french speaking members of this list for having used this language here. On Wed 11 sept. 1996 13:51 +0100, George Thompson wrote: >I myself don't have anything personal against the French language, and in >fact I welcome it to this list. Thank you very much / Merci beaucoup. >But it seems strange to me to suggest that >those young francophones who use English on the Internet are somehow >"illetrees." Au contraire.... Not at all and you're right. But my point was that the very domination of english in those new media makes indeed a threat to the literacy of young (and some older) french-(german-, danish-, polish- etc.)speaking generations because it's simply much easier to supress all the accents (especially in french orthography which could be sometime, as every french speaker/writer knows, especially ludicrous in some of its rules). Nevertheless, french has a vast litterary tradition and some french speakers feel strongly this threat against their writing culture (especially the quebecois, I was told, who are surrounded by the so-called anglo-saxon imperialism). Now my other point was: is that really so difficult for the computer industry to respect other cultural points of view than the anglo-saxon one or is it just bad will? Consider this: there are some email addresses inside our University's LAN I can't write to in correct french because the gateways (Unix based?) do not allow french accentuation (and we are in the heart of the Swiss french-speaking aera). Ridiculous... I think the computer industry now has to make a big effort of reflection on this point or do we (indologists, french-, german-, hindi-, japanese- etc speakers) have to do it for them and work on matters that are actually not our primary task? On Wed 11 sept. 1996, 14:18 +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >Please note that this request does not represent the policy of this >discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, >with or without translation. No disrespect to anyone will be implied by >this. Posters will need to make their own judgements about what >limitations this might put on their readership. >Postings in classical Sanskrit are *very* welcome. Thank you for this comment Dominik. On Wed 11 sept. 1996, 14:44 +0100, Gerard Huet wrote: >Les rosbifs voudraient qu'on traduise, Ca c'est pas tres poli, cher Gerard. Je crois savoir que les francais n'aiment pas non plus qu'on les appelle "froggies". / This is not very polite, dear Gerard. I think that the french don't like to be called froggies to. >je ne sais quoi leur repondre Merci pour tes traductions qui sont parvenues juste avant la mienne (mes excuses au reste du forum pour cette redondance). / Thanks for your translations that came just before mine's (apologies to the rest of the list for this redundancy). >This is indeed an important new (to me) information on this transcription >topic: what is exactly this convention, is it obsolete or is it close to >actual indologist usage, what is the distance between this convention and >say ITRANS, does it propose solutions to vedic letters and accents, does >it work to the extension of devanagari to hindi, etc etc. >Waiting for informed opinions on these topics >/En esperant que les personnes bien informees se manifesteront Les normes de cette transliteration se trouvent chez Renou "Grammaire Sanscrite. Tome I et II reunis" (la "grande" grammaire de Renou) pp.XI a XVIII. Renou ne dit rien de la transliteration de l'accent en revanche. Je ne sais quel est la distance entre cette transcriptionn et l'ITRANS (dont j'aimerai bien trouver une description precise quelque part, aide bienvenue). Cette transliteration est celle qui est utilisee dans la plupart des travaux indologiques imprimes en romain apres la seconde guerre et celle adoptee par les polices Normyn et Mytimes (pour Macintosh tout du moins). The norms of this transliteration can be find in Renou "Grammaire Sanscrite. Tome I et II reunis" (the "big" Renou's grammar) pp. XI to XVIII. Renou doesn't say anything about the transliteration of the accent. I don't what the distance is between this transliteration and ITRANS (of which I would like to find a precise description, help welcomed). This transliteration is the one most of the post second world war printed works in Indology uses and it is the one used by the Normin and Mytimes fonts (for the Mac at least). Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Wed Sep 11 03:22:57 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 15:22:57 +1200 Subject: Q: Sanskrit Alphabetical Order Message-ID: <161227025957.23782.10640865054384389412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) wrote: >that this sort of linguistic sophistication does not appear to be an >inheritance from IE, nor a borrowing from Dravidian grammarians [as far as >I know], but is attributable directly to the Snaskrit grammarians This is probably not fully correct as the Dravidian influence on Sanskrit was felt much earlier on than the first grammatical works in it. The most conspicuous pointer to it is the presence of retroflex stops in Sanskrit which is not found in other IE languages, but is found in Dravidian. -& From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Wed Sep 11 13:26:18 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 15:26:18 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025970.23782.6094689235067600310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Voila qu'on cause franc,ais dans le poste, maintenant! /What a surprise to hear french in this forum! Les rosbifs voudraient qu'on traduise, je ne sais quoi leur repondre /Dominique Thillaud's transaction, in a nutshell, is that languages exist before their writing conventions, and thus one should not expect revelations from the writing forms. He gives funny interpretations of various transcriptions of the pra.nava (Om etc) to push his point. I see no reason however to translate in english other people's transactions in full. Je m'excuse d'ailleurs vis-a-vis de mes correspondants francophones de faire cette traduction partielle sans leur autorisation /Then Francois Voegeli remarks, in connection to roman transcription of sanskrit, that actually an international convention was agreed upon at the Xth Orientalist Congress in Geneva in 1894, involving a modest amount of diacritics. He then remarks that it should not be a terribly difficult task for computer scientists to implement this convention. This is indeed an important new (to me) information on this transcription topic: what is exactly this convention, is it obsolete or is it close to actual indologist usage, what is the distance between this convention and say ITRANS, does it propose solutions to vedic letters and accents, does it work to the extension of devanagari to hindi, etc etc. Waiting for informed opinions on these topics /En esperant que les personnes bien informees se manifesteront Gerard Huet From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 12 08:37:03 1996 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 00:37:03 -0800 Subject: Programs on Hinduism Message-ID: <161227025989.23782.7730932667371840498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend doing research in Europe has asked me to compile a list of centers or programs dedicated to Hinduism in the US. I know of the Depts. of South Asian Studies in Philadephia, Berkeley, Madison, Austin TX and the Committee for the Study of Religion at Harvard and the Dept. of Religious Studies in Santa Barbara as well. Can the US indologists please help me get this list together? Thank you so much. Beatrice From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu Sep 12 12:25:32 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:25:32 -0400 Subject: Programs on Hinduism Message-ID: <161227025996.23782.5656253246340243288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the request posted by Beatrice Reusch, appended, note the WWW links provided by the University of Virginia at http://www.virginia.edu/~soasia/links.html that include the following US university centers for study of South Asia: University of California at Berkeley, University of Chicago, Columbia University, Cornell University, University of Pennsylvania, University of Texas at Austin, Univrsity of Virginia, University of Washington, and University of Wisconsin at Madison. The convenient set of links from the University of Virginia is augmented (but only slightly) on a page at my individual web site: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/linkndia.htm which offers a separate link to the Center for Advanced Study of India at the University of Pennsylvania (in addition to the South Asia Regional Center). Gene Thursby http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, B. Reusch wrote: > A friend doing research in Europe has asked me to compile a list of centers > or programs dedicated to Hinduism in the US. I know of the Depts. of South > Asian Studies in Philadephia, Berkeley, Madison, Austin TX and the > Committee for the Study of Religion at Harvard and the Dept. of Religious > Studies in Santa Barbara as well. > Can the US indologists please help me get this list together? > Thank you so much. From thompson at jlc.net Thu Sep 12 12:29:20 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:29:20 -0400 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227025998.23782.6202393548475876597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We all know [I hope!] that living languages, like French, change, whereas dead languages, like Sanskrit, don't. Today English is in ascendancy; tomorrow it will probably be Chinese that will rule the Internet. So what? I have no allegiance to English. If Chinese becomes the language of Indology tomorrow, I will learn it, in order to talk about what interests me to those who are also interested [we've all done this already with other languages of Indology, haven't we?]. I don't worry about what MTV is doing to English. I don't think that Anglophones need an academy to control the so-called damage done to the language, *by time* more than by anything else. I don't view African- American Vernacular, for example, as some dark threat to my cultural and linguistic heritage [I view it rather as an enrichment; I view the addition of *any* language as an enrichment -- even French, which, by the way, I see as rather similar, phonologically, to African-American Vernacular]. If we really wanted to display our philological feathers, perhaps Sanskrit should be the medium of exchange, after all, as it has been in India for some 2000 yrs [and probably for similar reasons].... This is the proper function of dead languages, I suppose. Sincerely, George Thompson From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Thu Sep 12 12:52:50 1996 From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:52:50 -0400 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026001.23782.12320376977023344139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I respect the sentiments that people should be free to communicate in any language they want, I wish to point out that the communication is useful when it is understood by the people who are assembled. English seems to be acceptable language of communication(for good or bad). Any creative writing has however a lot more value when done in one's native language. Without getting further into the philosophical aspects of communication (which is extremely interesting), let me request that we agree that English be used as the primary language of communication. I will also request that we have a set of net volunteers who may help translate material to English such that it gets understood. While saying this, let me volunteer to translate stuff from Sanskrit and Hindi to English if such postings occur. It will be cool if people occasionally create postings in Sanskrit! - Bijoy Misra. On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dominik wrote: > > >discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include > >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, > >with or without translation. > > To me as a person with a European educational background, postings in French > or German do not create a problem. I am not so sure about Americans, and > certainly not so sure about our colleagues in India, some of whom may have > thought it more worthwhile to learn other languages than French and German. > Putting French and German on an equal footing with English (the one European > language that educated Indians are certain to master) is in my opinion a > rather eurocentric thing to do these days (and we do want to communicate > with Indian colleagues too,don't we?) I think English should be the business > language of Indology. Apabhramshas like German and French should be left for > internal use in those countries, like Norwegian is left to Norwegians. > > Best (provocative?) regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Thu Sep 12 16:33:32 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 09:33:32 -0700 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227026014.23782.10953903216307180400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members, I had wanted to stay out of this discussion, but ... I'm sure nobody wants Sanskrit as the LIST medium, but to even suggest it is to equate Indology with the study of Sanskrit. I hope there is noone who wants to do THAT, either. Peter Claus On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:29:29 BST > From: Girish Beeharry > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Scripts (continued) > > Hi, > > >African-American Vernacular]. If we really wanted to display our > >philological feathers, perhaps Sanskrit should be the medium of exchange, > >after all, as it has been in India for some 2000 yrs [and probably for > >similar reasons].... This is the proper function of dead languages, I > >suppose. > > Well, I am looking forward to your sandeshas! There is some Net communicating, > by amateurs, in Sanskrit. It works very well. Practically everyone uses > ITRANS's scheme of transliteration. You professionals might think of doing it > in anushthubha; that should be easy ... :-) A convention for the Vedic accents > has to be agreed upon, though. > > As for describing Skt as a dead language, would you then classify Latin & Greek > as mummified languages? > > bye, > > Girish Beeharry > > From Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au Thu Sep 12 01:04:04 1996 From: Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au (Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 11:04:04 +1000 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025987.23782.12218676359440202458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: >> Out of respect for the many non-french speaking members of this list, I >> would ask you to please add a translation to your emails. Thanks. > >Please note that this request does not represent the policy of this >discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, >with or without translation. No disrespect to anyone will be implied by >this. Posters will need to make their own judgements about what >limitations this might put on their readership. > >Postings in classical Sanskrit are *very* welcome. > >Best wishes, >Dominik > > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine >email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > FAX: 44 171 611 8545 If the main languages languages of indological scholarship include >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, >with or without translation and Postings in classical Sanskrit are *very* >welcome, then I presume postings in Hindi are *very, very* welcome. parivartan kii or caleN hindii ke saath caleN . bhavadiiy, Richard Barz From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 12 09:47:42 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 11:47:42 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025993.23782.8917270137808779710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cher Dominique Thillaud, > PS: s'il est dur pour vous de lire le francais, pensez qu'il a ete >dur pour moi de l'ecrire sans diacritiques (il n'y a pas qu'en sanscrit que >l'imperialisme anglo-saxon pose des problemes :-) > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis >email : thillaud at unice.fr > Je crains que ce n'est seulement *dur* lire le francais. Pour beaucoup des membres d'Indology, particulierement pour notre membres Indiens et Indiennes, c'est probablement *impossible* lire le francais. Si vous voulez communiquer avec tous les membres de la liste, il faut utiliser l'anglais. Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 12 09:47:44 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 11:47:44 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227025991.23782.2632960550330272627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: >discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, >with or without translation. To me as a person with a European educational background, postings in French or German do not create a problem. I am not so sure about Americans, and certainly not so sure about our colleagues in India, some of whom may have thought it more worthwhile to learn other languages than French and German. Putting French and German on an equal footing with English (the one European language that educated Indians are certain to master) is in my opinion a rather eurocentric thing to do these days (and we do want to communicate with Indian colleagues too,don't we?) I think English should be the business language of Indology. Apabhramshas like German and French should be left for internal use in those countries, like Norwegian is left to Norwegians. Best (provocative?) regards, Lars Martin Fosse From kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 12 19:33:58 1996 From: kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 12:33:58 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026020.23782.13411501879988959149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When Mendeleev introduced his periodic system of elements in 1867, he predicted that the gaps in the table would be filled by as yet undiscovered elements with certain properties that he specified. He named his predicted elements by prefixing the Sanskrit numerals eka-, dvi-, tri-, shchatur- [sic] to the names of the corresponding known elements. (Unfortunately, the predicted elements were given new nationalistic names when they were later discovered, e.g. Mendeleev's "eka-aluminium" became gallium, "eka-boron" became scandium, "eka-silicon" became germanium, "dvi-tellurium" became polonium, and "tri-manganese" became rhenium.) Why did Mendeleev use Sanskrit terminology here rather than Greek or Latin as is normal? Could it be that he knew about the Sivasutras? If he did, he must have seen that they are really a periodic system of the Sanskrit sounds, amazingly similar to his own periodic system of chemical elements even in their arrangement. So could the Sanskrit names have been meant as homage to Panini? This raises the question how much Sanskrit Mendeleev knew. He taught at St. Petersburg. Could someone tell me what Sanskritists were there in the 1860's? When were Boethlingk and Roth there? The only other use of Sanskrit in scientific terminology that I know about is the modern term "antarafacial". Does anyone know of others? Paul Kiparsky From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 12:54:43 1996 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 12:54:43 +0000 Subject: Accented Characters Message-ID: <161227025994.23782.8343667402290310298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Sep 96 at 21:35, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >> Now my other point was: is that really so difficult for the >>computer industry to respect other cultural points of view than the >>anglo-saxon one or is it just bad will? Consider this: there are some email >>addresses inside our University's LAN I can't write to in correct french >>because the gateways (Unix based?) do not allow french accentuation (and we >>are in the heart of the Swiss french-speaking aera). Ridiculous... >> I think the computer industry now has to make a big effort of >>reflection on this point or do we (indologists, french-, german-, hindi-, >>japanese- etc speakers) have to do it for them and work on matters that >>are actually not our primary task? > > >>Francois Voegeli >>Fac. des lettres >>Section de langues et civilisations orientales >>Universite de Lausanne >>BFSH 2 >>CH-1015 > > >I think it was just plain lack of foresight, together with the absence of a >more global perspective, something that, historically, is very common in >whatever country is a world power at any given moment (whether it be Spain, >France, Britain, the U.S., or any other country). As the ground work for >the personal computers we use today was laid in the United States, those who >did it where not thinking beyond the needs of the English language. >As a native speaker of Spanish, I always found it ridiculous that something >that is so simple on a typewriter, namely writing accents, or adding a dot >above or below a letter, becomes an impossible task on a desktop computer. >I learned from a computer-literate friend of mine that the reason has to do >with how the ASCII characters were initially established, and that, at this >point, changing them would be too complicated. So we need to rely on >specially designed fonts. > >Could someone else throw more light on this? > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies >University of California, Berkeley I can shed a little light, and offer a little help. The problem isn't due to bad will: just historical accident. It isn't difficult to correspond in many languages: I regularly exchange email with colleagues, containing words using all sorts of accents in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and even Old English and Russian. (I don't always understand them -- it's usually just a matter of forwarding in interesting message in a language that I can barely decypher -- but that's another matter :-) That correspondence works correctly because we are all using similar equipment and software. A high percentage of the emails I receive have accents correctly displayed ... but some have strange symbols or blanks instead. In the early days of computing, most systems used a byte consisting of seven bits, which allows one to count up to 127, i.e. there could be 127 characters for the alphabet, numerals, punctuation and a few unprintable control characters (e.g. carriage return). That is just enough to handle American English. Pretty soon, these 7-bit systems were standardized into ASCII, the American Code for Information Interchange. This was not cultural imperialism: it was simply a result of the historical accidents that a) most early computer were made in the USA and b) American English does not usually use accented characters. There wasn't even a UK pound sign in that code: it was purely American. However, it became a de facto international standard, because most computers were made in the US, even when they were used elsewhere. Shortly afterwards, 8-bit systems were introduced. These allow up to 255 characters, which is enough to include the accented characters for most Western-European Latin-alphabet languages. The ASCII code was therefore extended to handle 8-bits, and an MS-DOS codepage was created for it. (Actually, there were many codepages, but the Western-European one was by far the commonest, again because of historical accident: the biggest markets for computers at that time happened to be in countries speaking W-E languages.) Predictably, that code-page also became a de facto international standard, simply because of its ubiquity. Unfortunately, it was designed by programmers rather than linguists, so the characters were in an illogical order, and not all were included: e.g. they forgot the oe ligature for French (the story goes that the French expert was ill on the day of the meeting ...) and entirely overlooked the a-tilde and o-tilde in Portuguese, apparently because they didn't have a Portuguese or Brazilian contact. At roughly this point, other manufacturers lost patience, and started creating their own sets of characters, sometimes better, but inevitably incompatible with those used in the IBM/MS world. Some of the standard Mac codepages date from about this time, and the UNIX world has yet another set of codepages. The one thing that they all agree on is the basic *unextended* ASCII set, i.e. everyone uses the same set of characters in the first 127 positions, which is why many writers ignore accented characters altogether: it isn't illiteracy, it's just playing safe, by using only those characters which are certain to be handled correctly on all systems. Naturally, the dominance of IBM/MS in the market meant that the Extended ASCII also became a de facto standard. The arrival of Windows coincided with a much-needed redesign, leading to what is now the default "code-page" in W-E and US Windows, also known as Latin-1 and by a variety of other names. This is much better, and contains all the accented characters needed for all the major W-E languages, but not in the same positions as they had in the old DOS Extended ASCII. This leads to problems: accented text created on one system appears on others with the accented characters shuffled or missing. Guess what? Latin-1 is now a de facto international standard too, in the sense that it dominates the market. There are also codepages for other languages, e.g. Latin-2 for Eastern-European Latin-alphabet languages, and others for Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic ... but worldwide, more people use Latin-1 than anything else. The last figures that I saw showed that about 83% of all the computers in the world are IBM-compatible PCs, most of them running Windows ... and that percentage was steadily increasing. All the other systems added together don't even come close in sales terms, and are losing even more ground. There is therefore very little likelihood of any other system becoming a standard in fact, whatever the international standards bodies might say. The standard is what most people use, regardless of whether it is official or not, or whether it's actually the best. So what can we do to handle accents? Well, the picture isn't all bleak. It is true that an 8-bit message sent through a 7-bit system tends to have the most significant bit cut off, with the result that 128 is subtracted from the code representing any accented letter: e.g. capital E-grave, which is character number 0200 in Latin-1, is converted into character 0072, which happens to be capital H! However, some email and data-transfer systems can convert every character into a code which can be expressed with 7 bits, send the message, then convert the characters back again at the other end. This works beautifully ... as long as the software at both ends of the transfer is using the same codes. Some email programs don't, but standards are emerging and beginning to dominate the market. Many can handle codes from different types of computer, and convert them automatically. (When this doesn't work, the codes are simply displayed in unconverted form, so you get strange things such as "=C8" which is the hexadecimal notation for 0200, i.e. the capital E-grave. It is tedious, but possible, to convert them all back and read the result. The Windows calculator has a single-click converter between hex, binary, octal and decimal notations.) Even if the message arrives safely, it still has to be displayed, and a message written in Latin-1 on a PC might have some characters shuffled when displayed on a Mac using some other codepage, or a UNIX box using a different one again. Again, some newer programs can convert between codepages automatically, but the characters must actually exist in the receiving computer before they can be displayed. One way round this problem is to agree with the recipient of the message which codepage you are using. This is much easier nowadays, because modern Macs can use TrueType fonts originally created for PCs, and other manufacturers are finding ways of representing the IBM/PC codepages on their own systems. Even if the email program does not allow the user to select which font (and therefore the codepage) that the message should be displayed in (and most modern ones do), it is possible to send an email with a document attached. The email program converts the document into 7-bit code, and sends it down the wires, and then the receiver's email program converts it back again. The recipient then displays it using the same layout as was used by the writer, if necessary by transferring the document into a word-processor, which is more likely to allow the choice of fonts. This, of course, sometimes means that users have to buy special fonts in order to be able to make sense of messages. As you can deduce from my name, I have Scottish ancestry. The Scots are often accused of being incredibly mean with money. That is untrue: they are as generous as anyone else. However, they have a centuries-old tradition of hating to see scarce resources wasted. (It's an ecological attitude towards money: use it, but don't waste it. A sort of greenery about greenbacks.) I therefore have a genetically-programmed horror of seeing anyone spend money unnecessarily. I have therefore created a number of fonts in many different codepage layouts. You are all welcome to use them for academic purposes, i.e. not for commercial gain. Theoretically, the fonts are shareware, but very few people ever bother to pay for them, so in practice they are free. (Some nice people don't pay, but send me paperback detective novels in languages other than English, which is a nice thought: I give them to our language students ... after having read them myself, of course.) Some fonts (LeedsBit and LeedsCyr, which between them can handle all the Latin- and Cyrillic-alphabet languages) are already available on FTP archive sites such as CICA, SIMTEL and their mirrors. They and some rather more elegant ones (similar to Times New Roman, but not copyright) that I am working on now will also be available on my WWW page ... which doesn't actually exist yet, because my system supervisor still hasn't allocated me a URL, but it will exist in a few days, or so he says. It will probably be: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs/software_distribution/win3.x/ Failing that, try looking under my entry in the list of staff at: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs I'm currently working on TrueType fonts which code accents and characters separately, so any accent(s) can be used with any character. These, of course, are entirely non-standard, and should be used only by consenting adults in private, but they do have their uses, e.g. for transliterating Indian languages, indicating scansion in verse, etc. These too, together with a couple of useful utility programs which make typing accented characters very simple, can be used by everyone on this list, and their colleagues. I hope this helps. Best wishes. Alec McAllister. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 12:36:52 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 13:36:52 +0100 Subject: Accented Characters Message-ID: <161227025999.23782.13989532766044965635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >I'm currently working on TrueType fonts which code accents and characters separately, so any accent(s) can be used with any character. These, of course, are entirely non-standard, and should be used only by consenting adults in private, but they do have their uses, e.g. for transliterating Indian languages, indicating scansion in verse, etc. These too, together with a couple of useful utility programs which make typing accented characters very simple, can be used by everyone on this list, and their colleagues. >http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs/software_distribution/win3.x/ The very useful work you are doing is highly commendable. Would these Indian script TrueType fonts be located at the site above? What scripts are you working on please? Many thanks for the information. Bye, Girish Beeharry From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 13:13:19 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:13:19 +0100 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227026003.23782.12041943233275555316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >African-American Vernacular]. If we really wanted to display our >philological feathers, perhaps Sanskrit should be the medium of exchange, >after all, as it has been in India for some 2000 yrs [and probably for >similar reasons].... This is the proper function of dead languages, I >suppose. Well, I am looking forward to your sandeshas! There is some Net communicating, by amateurs, in Sanskrit. It works very well. Practically everyone uses ITRANS's scheme of transliteration. You professionals might think of doing it in anushthubha; that should be easy ... :-) A convention for the Vedic accents has to be agreed upon, though. As for describing Skt as a dead language, would you then classify Latin & Greek as mummified languages? bye, Girish Beeharry From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 14:16:05 1996 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:16:05 +0000 Subject: Accented Characters Message-ID: <161227026005.23782.4309346412256813531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Sep 96 at 13:57, Girish Beeharry wrote: >Hi, > >>I'm currently working on TrueType fonts which code accents and >>characters separately, so any accent(s) can be used with any >>character. >>http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs/software_distribution/win3.x/ > >Would these Indian >script TrueType fonts be located at the site above? What scripts are you >working on please? Many thanks for the information. Alas, they are not Indian script. They are only in Latin and Cyrillic characters at present. They are suitable for *transliteration* of Indian languages. They will be on my WWW page, which will probably be at URL above, but the system supervisor hasn't created it yet, and might change the location. If so, I'll announce it. Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 14:22:32 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 15:22:32 +0100 Subject: Accented Characters Message-ID: <161227026008.23782.4060286744676129661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Alec McAllister wrote: > >>I'm currently working on TrueType fonts which code accents and > >>characters separately, so any accent(s) can be used with any > >>character. > >>http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs/software_distribution/win3.x/ May I ask how the accents are floated to the appropriate positions over the characters, when using applications like MS Word? Is there some trick I don't know? Secondly, are you aware of the modified Bistream and Utopia fonts available via the INDOLOGY web site? These fonts contain extra accented characters (accent+char = single glyph) for work with Indian languages. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thillaud at unice.fr Thu Sep 12 13:24:24 1996 From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 15:24:24 +0200 Subject: ksamaam yaacaami Message-ID: <161227026006.23782.8343752302594944262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops! I'm really sorry! My aim was not the war, I wrote in french because: 1) I'm just a froggy (I like this small animal and that's not injurious for me to be associated with) and, as you can see, I'm unabled to write cursorily a correct english. 2) I believed french (and german) would be accepted in indologist milieu (Bergaigne and Renou wrote in french without scandal). 3) Yes, I agree, english is irrevocably *the* international communication standard, but I dislike *overall* standardization. 4) I like my language. Yes. But I must admit that I had impolitely forgotten the non french readers and I apologize to them. And when I talk about anglo-saxon imperialism, that's not a red flag, that's just the reality. And that's a problem that the ASCII code were unable to transcript languages accurately, just because, historically, english people had no interest for an accurate transcription of their own language. So, here so much mailings about writing sanskrit. Let be clear: I mean there are no fair solutions with the 7-bits ASCII, just, perhaps, quite good ones. For example: If we have to use an english alphabet, we can use the correlative spelling principles: auxiliary characters for diacritics (as "h" in "sh", "th", "gh") and context-dependant spelling. In sanskrit too, many sounds are conditionned by environment and so some alterations are redundant. For my personal use, I write: "s " for the visarga, "n" or "m" for the anusvaara, rta-, tisthati, ksatriya-, dhenusu, cakrena, hansi, yajna-, etc. "aa", "ii" for the long vowels (I reserve upercases for proper nouns), "sh" for the palatal sibilant and "tz", "tzh", "nz", "sz" for the genuine retroflexes. So I save a lot of time, I gain frequently a plainer analysis of the words and there's no lack of information: if I need it, my computer can easily restore the "true" form with a one-pass parsing. That was my modest contribution to the debate. Finally, as I am disappointed that my jokes are not world-wide known, I give here a translation: << Moreover, imagination is boundless and all things are in all places. I'll prove it with "Om": 1) This two characters represent the conjunction of female (the roundness of "O" is like an open vulva or a pregnant belly) and male (the "m" is like two legs with a penis, that's too the first character of "man", "masculin", "macho", etc.). Union of complementary opposites, they are a picture of the totality. 2) They are too a picture of the world: by vertical symmetry they are "MO", the first two characters of italian "mondo" or of french "monde"; by halfplane rotation they are "WO", the first two characters of english "world". 3) If we split up "Aum", we find the picture of the horned victim (obviously reversed because just sacrified), the cup for the blood and the sacrificer himself (two legs and a knife). Therefore the syllable represent the sacrifice who joins the divine world with the human one. >> Well, that's not a criticism of this revered spell, just some suspicion against mystical interpretation of graphical characters: it's really too easy! namaste! -------------------------------------------------------------- Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis email : thillaud at unice.fr From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 16:46:27 1996 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 16:46:27 +0000 Subject: Accented Characters Message-ID: <161227026012.23782.16831207269996052152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Sep 96 at 15:25, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Alec McAllister wrote: > >> >>I'm currently working on TrueType fonts which code accents and >> >>characters separately, so any accent(s) can be used with any >> >>character. >> >>http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ucs/software_distribution/win3.x/ > >May I ask how the accents are floated to the appropriate positions over >the characters, when using applications like MS Word? Is there some trick >I don't know? There are two basic techniques: a) use WFW's equation editor feature (badly documented and clumsy, but still there and still useful, especially if you create macros for easy use) to overstrike two or more symbols to create accented characters; and b) create fonts in which the accents have zero advance-width (i.e. the cursor doesn't move when you type them) and which are actually situated to the left of the cursor, so they appear above, below or through the previous letter. One of my fonts uses the latter technique, and produces quite reasonable results on its own, i.e. you simply type the character, then the accent, and the result is pretty good and perfectly legible. It's adequate for first drafts, notes and student work, where the occasional off-centre accent over a particularly wide or narrow letter doesn't matter much. However, for really accurate results (i.e. camera-ready copy), it is necessary to use overstriking, which enable the writer to centre the accents exactly over the characters, regardless of their variable width. I've created variants of the basic font to make that easier. > >Secondly, are you aware of the modified Bistream and Utopia fonts >available via the INDOLOGY web site? These fonts contain extra accented >characters (accent+char = single glyph) for work with Indian languages. Yes. They are excellent fonts. My LeedsBit package was also based on Bitstream Charter, which is a good font, and all the better for being public domain. My fonts are not in competition with those on the INDOLOGY site. I'm trying to do something different. I'm trying to create a very small number of fonts which can handle a large number of different languages, so they are not tailor-made for transliterating Indian langs. My latest fonts also look different. Bitstream Charter is slightly "blocky", so I'm trying to modify it into something which looks rather more like Times New Roman ... but not so similar that I breach Monotype's copyright! :-) Best wishes, Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Sep 13 00:12:32 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 17:12:32 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026029.23782.1909150946755710082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > undiscovered elements with certain properties that he specified. He > named his predicted elements by prefixing the Sanskrit numerals eka-, > dvi-, tri-, shchatur- [sic] to the names of the corresponding known > elements. (Unfortunately, the predicted elements were given new > nationalistic names when they were later discovered, e.g. Mendeleev's > "eka-aluminium" became gallium, "eka-boron" became scandium, > "eka-silicon" became germanium, "dvi-tellurium" became polonium, and > "tri-manganese" became rhenium.) This is interesting. I knew about eka-boron but not about dvi-tellurium and tri-manganese. Still, I think it is a good thing that new names were given to the elements after they were discovered. Chemistry would have been quite cumbersome otherwise. Also note that the periodic table itself has undergone many changes in its principle (atomic number instead of atomic weight) and its structure (separation of A and B sub-groups, introduction of a separate positions for lanthanide and actinide series, etc.) since Mendeleev's original proposition. So there was no overriding reason to maintain his names for the as yet undiscovered elements. > > Why did Mendeleev use Sanskrit terminology here rather than Greek or > Latin as is normal? Could it be that he knew about the Sivasutras? > If he did, he must have seen that they are really a periodic system of > the Sanskrit sounds, amazingly similar to his own periodic system of > chemical elements even in their arrangement. So could the Sanskrit > names have been meant as homage to Panini? > How about the simpler possibility that Mendeleev was proposing something new and therefore wanted to avoid confusion? The Greek and Latin suffixes had already come to have other meanings in chemistry. For example, di-nitrogen is sometimes used to mean a nitrogen molecule that has two nitrogen atoms. Similarly with di-oxygen. These terms are falling out of usage, but they were in currency till fairly recently. So, when a chemist hears a word with a prefix like di-, he does not think of a completely different element, which just happens to have a related position in the periodic table. Rather he would think of a different form of the same element. The prefixes mono-, di- and tri- are still used in compound names, although not very often in names of elements. As such, the use of such prefixes would have been confusing. "Di-tellurium" could have well meant some bizarre creature like a molecule composed of two tellurium atoms. "Dvi-tellurium" would have drawn attention to the fact that Mendeleev was not talking of such a tellurium molecule. Interestingly, the term "Unnil" is used to denote the heaviest elements which do not occur naturally, but are seen within extremely short half-lives in some radioactive processes. Thus, "unnilpentium" is an element with atomic number 105 (here "pentium" is not that computer thingy :-)). Looks like Latin has won out once again. S. Vidyasankar From indobib at indoger.unizh.ch Thu Sep 12 15:14:05 1996 From: indobib at indoger.unizh.ch (Abt. f. Indologie) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 17:14:05 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227026010.23782.5091023056161617257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would agree with Lars Martin Fosse concerning the language of Indology: If we want to be understood by all, we must use English (or Sanskrit and perhaps Hindi). But we cannot dismiss the fact, that French and German are important languages for the Indology and that anyone who is not able to understand them will not have access to certain important books. So is just for example the still completest dictionary from Sanskrit to an European language the Petersburger Woerterbuch (I do not think that any of us will live to see the Poona-Dictionary reaching the end of the vowels...) and it is Sanskrit-German. With kind regards Andreas Bigger, Zuerich From schopra at cabler.cableregina.com Thu Sep 12 23:24:09 1996 From: schopra at cabler.cableregina.com (schopra at cabler.cableregina.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 17:24:09 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026022.23782.2450755659907145898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul: It is not neccessary to reinvent technical terms which are in common use, I feel we should use the terms as they are. Phone is a phone in most languages. Boron is Boron, and so it should be in Sanskrit. English is a great language because it has borrowed freely from all languages. What would a menu look like if translated into true English, very boring. Cafe au Lait expresses better than anything. A la carte, you couldnot improve on that. Taxi in Sanskrit should be nothing but a taxi. Helllo, becomes, ello in french but the spelling remains the same. Why not we think of importing words in Sanskrit. No pure language exists. At one time Sanskrit must have borrowed from the great Dravidian languages which pre-existed in India when Sanskrit arrived. No wonder the language grew - alchemy of mixing languages gives more more powerful communication tools. Unless we can improve, let us borrow .. words in Sanskrit. Of course there are incredible words that can be created by adding prefixes and suffixes which exist in Sanskrit. aqueous and anaqueous, wonder wondertum and maybe anwondertum .. we can explode the language ... maybe import those words into other languages and we have an explosion of ideas not just words. Maybe we start to create superlanguages .. Let us get creative ... and get away from pure languages, there are none ... they are dead. Let us create a million new words. >When Mendeleev introduced his periodic system of elements in 1867, he >predicted that the gaps in the table would be filled by as yet >undiscovered elements with certain properties that he specified. He >named his predicted elements by prefixing the Sanskrit numerals eka-, >dvi-, tri-, shchatur- [sic] to the names of the corresponding known >elements. (Unfortunately, the predicted elements were given new >nationalistic names when they were later discovered, e.g. Mendeleev's >"eka-aluminium" became gallium, "eka-boron" became scandium, >"eka-silicon" became germanium, "dvi-tellurium" became polonium, and >"tri-manganese" became rhenium.) > >Why did Mendeleev use Sanskrit terminology here rather than Greek or >Latin as is normal? Could it be that he knew about the Sivasutras? >If he did, he must have seen that they are really a periodic system of >the Sanskrit sounds, amazingly similar to his own periodic system of >chemical elements even in their arrangement. So could the Sanskrit >names have been meant as homage to Panini? > >This raises the question how much Sanskrit Mendeleev knew. He taught >at St. Petersburg. Could someone tell me what Sanskritists were there >in the 1860's? When were Boethlingk and Roth there? > >The only other use of Sanskrit in scientific terminology that I know >about is the modern term "antarafacial". Does anyone know of others? > >Paul Kiparsky > > From schopra at cabler.cableregina.com Thu Sep 12 23:28:58 1996 From: schopra at cabler.cableregina.com (schopra at cabler.cableregina.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 17:28:58 -0600 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026025.23782.12792880424810883452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Bijoy, we should be able to communicate in any language we wish. I have no problem with English, but Hindi is OK too, or French ... let us open it up. If people feel comfortable in Sanskrit let them write in that language. Translations may follow on request. That can be done on the net. I think it is an exciting .. > >While I respect the sentiments that people should be free to >communicate in any language they want, I wish to point out >that the communication is useful when it is understood by >the people who are assembled. English seems to be acceptable >language of communication(for good or bad). Any creative writing >has however a lot more value when done in one's native language. > >Without getting further into the philosophical aspects of >communication (which is extremely interesting), let me request >that we agree that English be used as the primary language of >communication. I will also request that we have a set >of net volunteers who may help translate material to English >such that it gets understood. While saying this, let me volunteer >to translate stuff from Sanskrit and Hindi to English if such >postings occur. > >It will be cool if people occasionally create postings >in Sanskrit! > >- Bijoy Misra. > > >On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> Dominik wrote: >> >> >discussion list. The main languages of indological scholarship include >> >French and German, and postings in these or other languages are welcome, >> >with or without translation. >> >> To me as a person with a European educational background, postings in French >> or German do not create a problem. I am not so sure about Americans, and >> certainly not so sure about our colleagues in India, some of whom may have >> thought it more worthwhile to learn other languages than French and German. >> Putting French and German on an equal footing with English (the one European >> language that educated Indians are certain to master) is in my opinion a >> rather eurocentric thing to do these days (and we do want to communicate >> with Indian colleagues too,don't we?) I think English should be the business >> language of Indology. Apabhramshas like German and French should be left for >> internal use in those countries, like Norwegian is left to Norwegians. >> >> Best (provocative?) regards, >> >> Lars Martin Fosse >> >> > > > From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Sep 12 17:13:45 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 20:13:45 +0300 Subject: ? Message-ID: <161227026016.23782.17600268129808736480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Helmut Nespital wrote: > >> i > >me too. > >Dominik I have had difficulties reaching Helmut Nespital's email address. As this is the first posting the Indo Net has had from him, perhaps we should take it as an indication that the Indology List has reached his location, and just say "welcome". Ruth Schmidt From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 13 00:30:19 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 20:30:19 -0400 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227026031.23782.4271415857194405327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following appeared in George Thompson's comment: "We all know [I hope!] that living languages, like French, change, whereas dead languages, like Sanskrit, don't." Anyone working with vernacular varieties of modern or medieval Sanskrit can vouch for the fact that even the dead (???) languages like Sanskrit do change. Just listen to the news broadcast on All India Radio in Sanskrit everyday, if one needs proofs of change. Madhav Deshpande From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Sep 12 18:53:45 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 20:53:45 +0200 Subject: Scripts Message-ID: <161227026018.23782.12627704877418854398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:21 12.09.96 BST, you wrote: >I would agree with Lars Martin Fosse concerning the language of Indology: >If we want to be understood by all, we must use English (or Sanskrit and >perhaps Hindi). But we cannot dismiss the fact, that French and German >are important languages for the Indology and that anyone who is not able >to understand them will not have access to certain important books. This is of course correct! The ability to read German and French is extremely valuable for the simple reason that so much highly important work has been produced in those languages. But in a world where global integration is happening all the time, using one's own native tongue is not always an advantage. This is self-evident to a speaker of a small language (there are only 4 million Norwegians, and we shall never be able to make our language a "world language"). It is a bit less clear to speakers of medium-sized languages like French, German or Italian (the Italians write important stuff in Italian, too), not to mention the Russians who write in Russian, but I think they have to realize that in the interest of communication and integration of the scholarly community throughout the world, a "business language" is an advantage, and in the case of India, English is the natural choice. As for using Sanskrit or Hindi as means of communication, that is not an ideal choice either. Scholars outside our field (e.g. comparative linguists or general linguists) may take a natural interest in our work, but would be excluded if we were to produce our stuff in Sanskrit or Hindi. Again, English commends itself. As a speaker of a minority language, I take a rather unsentimental approach to the choice of language in such matters. (I have to use a foreign language anyway, and I have minimal sympathy for speakers of other languages who cling to their own tongues regardless of whether their colleagues can understand them or not). I think of language purely as a means of communication, as a vehicle for bringing a thought from the mind of one person to the mind of another person. Efficiency should be a priority, and efficiency is not served if we insist upon using European languages that may be more or less incomprehensible to our Asian colleagues. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From thompson at jlc.net Fri Sep 13 01:19:41 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 21:19:41 -0400 Subject: Scripts (continued) Message-ID: <161227026034.23782.1238006570913535543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My point about the use of Skt. as a medium of exchange was a little tongue in cheek, and I do not intend to send out saMdeZas in anything but English for now. But in fact besides being an object of study for Sanskritists, Skt. has also been a language of scholarship. Like Latin, another dead language that has been used as a medium of exchange for international scholarship, Sanskrit has served as a more or less *neutral* language which could be used to discuss any number of things. This territoriality about one's language of preference [French, Hindi, English, Sanskrit, etc.] is, I confess, annoying [however, I apologize if I have been too vehement]. Clearly what is desired is a neutral medium of exchange, as well as a standard convention for transliterating Indic languages [in fact, I do not presuppose that Skt. = Indic]. I don't particularly care what that language of exchange is [as long as I can gain access to it: how about Latin?] nor do I especially care about transliteration conventions, as long as we all agree. Like G. Huet [I assume] I would like to see more of that "30% interesting indological communication".... Concerning which, I was intrigued by P. Kiparsky's posting re Skt. in scientific terminology. I cannot answer his questions re Mendeleev's knowledge of Skt. or the ZivasUtras, etc. But as for homage to Panini, I understand that Chomsky has also performed one to Panini. Perhaps members of the list might be interested to know more of this and related matters. Of course, linguists of all sorts use the term sandhi, and the field of comparative religion has been frequently enriched by numerous Skt. terms in its general vocabulary, and I am convinced that folklorists should adopt the term Atmastuti to designate a well-known but otherwise un-named genre of folk and ritual literature. Pseudo-science is of course filled with Skt. terminology [perhaps because it lends credence]. As for real science? I don't know. This is an interesting issue which I hope to hear more about from those who do. Sincerely, George Thompson p.s. in response to M. Deshpande's recent posting: perhaps Skt. is not quite dead yet. Or perhaps it has been reborn. From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri Sep 13 03:09:33 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 23:09:33 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026036.23782.13656866287132149046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Paul Kiparsky wrote: > The only other use of Sanskrit in scientific terminology that I know > about is the modern term "antarafacial". Does anyone know of others? Here's a cute one: a neurotransmitter believed to be involved in mediating the effects of marijuana, chocolate and perhaps other addictive(?) substances has been named "anandamide." When I first heard that a family of deadly viruses was called "hantaviruses" I thought... but no, the etymology seems to be Navaho. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu "Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia... in our own languages we hear them speaking about God's deeds of power." From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Thu Sep 12 22:35:22 1996 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 00:35:22 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026039.23782.11576874780985213441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Paul Kiparsky wrote: > This raises the question how much Sanskrit Mendeleev knew. He taught > at St. Petersburg. Could someone tell me what Sanskritists were there > in the 1860's? When were Boethlingk and Roth there? In 1845 Rudolf von Roth became a lecturer in Oriental philology in Tuebingen, Germany; in 1856 he was appointed to the rang of a professor at the same university. He died there in 1895. I do not know if he ever visited Sankt Petersburg (probably not). Boethlingk left Petersburg in the late sixties of the last century and settled in Germany, at first in Jena and later in Leipzig (about 1885) where he also died (1904). So far I know he never gave lectures. His post as "academician" allowed research but did not involve teaching. If Mendeleev attended Sanskrit lectures he perhaps heard Ivan Pavlovich Minaev who was the Sanskritist at the university in Peterburg. Sorry, I have not his exact dates at hand, I think he taught there from the 1860's on. Two other names are coming to my mind: the first indologist in St. Petersburg was probably Robert Lenz who died (28 years old) in 1836. Till 1852 the German born Friedrich Bollensen was assistant professor there. He published Kalidasa's Vikramorvasi in 1846 using materials collected by Robert Lenz. The Russian Pavel Jakovlevich Petrov (1814-1875) taught Sanskrit in Kazan and Moscow. Perhaps he had no relation to the Peterburgian intelligentsia. \bye -- Peter Wyzlic ................................. ... fugit inreparabile tempus ... ................................. From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Thu Sep 12 23:49:18 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 01:49:18 +0200 Subject: Latin Transcription of Sanskrit - one more try Message-ID: <161227026027.23782.3042085689246579953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now that the heat on anglo-saxon imperialism has subsided, I propose to return for a moment to the transcription discussion. First of all, to answer Leslaw Borowski's questioning why I qualified this discussion as "boring" - It is not at all because this question is not important, I think we need to advance on these standardisation issues indeed. It was just my personal feeling about Indology traffic, which I classify roughly in 3 categories: 30% interesting indological communication 10% tolerable information gathering (how to reach Pr X, biblio requests) 30% boring technical stuff about fonts and transliteration systems 30% noise (communalism, oppression of backward casts such as French, Kashmir, widow-burning, chain letters, subscribe magazines, etc) :-) Now, returning to Francois.Voegeli's allusion to the standardised latin transcription used say in Renou's grammar and the difference with say ITRANS convention. Well, here again we fall in the confusion I denounced in a previous message: what has been defined at the Indological Congress and presumably used by Renou is a typographical convention using latin letters augmented with diacritic marks (what I called level 3 previously), which does not give clues on possible computer encodings in the ASCII alphabet or other (what I called level 2, where competing conventions are ITRANS, DEVNAG, Borowski's system, etc). Now, let us see. I claim that discussing level 2 conventions is important, but a bit boring, in that this question occurs repeatedly in this forum, but is generally inconclusive, since as long as the convention is unambiguous it is mechanically translatable into any other one. But maybe the typographical look (level 3) may be agreed upon much more easily, since indeed most recent indological work use a de facto standard. So let us look at Renou's grammar for instance (or equivalently in the Stchoupak, Nitti and Renou `Dictionnaire Sanskrit-Franc,ais'). And indeed this conforms more or less to the de facto standard, with one serious exception: the palatal sibilant is written as a c with cedilla (like in franc,ais), rather than the now standard s with acute accent (\'s in TeX notation). Now this cedilla is one of these crazy peculiarities the French (me included) relish upon. No french typewriter or AZERTY keyboard goes without one. But I find it just confusing to use it to denote the palatal sibilant, which corresponds phonetically to the french ch, whereas the cedilla is to distinguish the s sound from the k sound. To my taste, the 's is a much better notation, or its slight variant s with a dot above as used by Monier-Williams. For the cerebral sibilant the transcriptions sh and s with a dot under have been used, and I think the latter usage prevails. I considered these issues when I was designing my sanskrit dictionary, and settled on \'s and {\d s} (in TeX notation, the latter means s with a dot down) for the two sibilants. I also considered several variants of the anusvAra, and settled on \.m (dot above m) for the `original' one, and {\d m} (dot under m) for the one which stands for another nasal. My feeling on these matters is that indeed it would be rather easy to come to an agreement on a standard on this typographical issue, possibly with a few slight variations. This could be finalised at the Bangalore conference in january. For historical completeness, we may mention MacDonnell's 1924 Practical Sanskrit Dictionary, whose latin transliteration, mixing straight and slanted letters, is remarkably unpractical. And still earlier, Emile Burnouf's Dictionnaire classique Sanscrit-franc,ais (1866), which uses a rather ingenious transcription system where special ligatures where designed to represent in one letter th, dh, etc. This is called the system of the `Ecole de Nancy', and in the enthusiasm for oriental studies that happened at the time they went as far as casting a lead font specially for this usage (at the `Imprimerie Orientale de Veuve Raybois, 3 rue du faubourg Stanislas, Nancy'). If I were serious as a french imperialist I should probably push for this tradition and build a METAFONT version of it, except that I have a hard time distinguishing these ligatured t's from ordinary t's without glasses, and I think this should just be put to rest as indological archeology. Oh, I almost forgot. The Ecole de Nancy system used x for k.s, which answers a query from Frances Pritchett some time ago. It also used w instead of v, an interesting variation. Enough for today G. Huet From grast5+ at pitt.edu Fri Sep 13 16:55:48 1996 From: grast5+ at pitt.edu (Giridhar R Akkaraju) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026045.23782.1122711981108984980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > When I first heard that a family of deadly viruses was called > "hantaviruses" I thought... but no, the etymology seems to be Navaho. > > -Peter D. Banos > pdb1 at columbia.edu I believe that Hantaviruses were named after a place in Korea (Hantan (?)) where an earlier outbreak of a virus with symptoms similar to the four corners area virus was first seen - I think during the Korean War. giri From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri Sep 13 13:07:20 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:07:20 +0100 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026042.23782.16721366007677612390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I, for one, welcome communications in Romance or Germanic languages. Indeed I would regard an openness to that as a mark of serious scholarship. I do not see the need to have a single language of communication. Apart from anything else, the quantity of important work in Indology conducted in French and German (taken together) is at least equal to that in English (and probably greater). Of course English far exceeds all other European languages in the production of rubbish ! If you restrict postings to the English language, then you merely produce the result that some French or German scholars will not post because it will be too time-consuming to do so. (Many who are fluent in reading English cannot write English at speed.) This would be a loss to us all. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 13 15:42:15 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 16:42:15 +0100 Subject: some remarks on transliteration Message-ID: <161227026044.23782.12403046674168899123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a different context, I was recently asked to write something about Devanagari transliteration. Since a discussion on this has been quite active here, I am making a rough version of my piece available via the INDOLOGY page. See the INDOLOGY section on "INDOLOGY member's queries and information". I'm afraid that none of the special characters or tables have converted to HTML, and it would take more work than I am prepared to do to get this working. So what you see is just a rough collection of notes. Please fill in the gaps with your imagination! Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat Sep 14 02:38:32 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 19:38:32 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026052.23782.9806285463813487808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One should not overlook the possibility that Mendeleev could have learnt Sanskrit when he was in Heidelberg, or during his other visits to Europe. Between 1859 and 1861, he was studying at the University of Heidelberg. He attended the famous First Internation Chemical Congress in Karlsruhe in 1860, where he made contacts with French and Italian scientists. He was very much influenced by Avogadro's pupil, Stanislao Cannizzaro, whom he met at Karlsruhe. Cannizzaro was responsible for reviving Avogadro's principle, viz. any gas at the same temperature, pressure and volume has the same number of particles (atoms or molecules), and extended it to gram-molecular weights of all materials, gaseous or otherwise. These ideas about atomic and molecular weights were significant in the development of the periodic table. Mendeleev returned to St. Petersburg in 1861, but became a professor there only in 1864. He was in Paris in 1867, organizing the Russian pavilion at a scientific conference. His final version of the periodic table with its predictions of as yet unknown elements appeared in 1871. S. Vidyasankar From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Sep 13 18:24:17 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 20:24:17 +0200 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026047.23782.6301847482187223885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:19 13.09.96 BST, Lance Cousins wrote: >I, for one, welcome communications in Romance or Germanic languages. Indeed >I would regard an openness to that as a mark of serious scholarship. > >I do not see the need to have a single language of communication. Apart >from anything else, the quantity of important work in Indology conducted in >French and German (taken together) is at least equal to that in English >(and probably greater). Of course English far exceeds all other European >languages in the production of rubbish ! I'll certainly not contest that! >If you restrict postings to the English language, then you merely produce >the result that some French or German scholars will not post because it >will be too time-consuming to do so. (Many who are fluent in reading >English cannot write English at speed.) This would be a loss to us all. I doubt very much that serious French and German scholars would not post because it would be too time-consuming. If a Norwegian can learn how to communicate in English, so can the French and the Germans. The important question is: How many in the world community of Indologists are able to read French and German (not to mention Russian and Italian) with ease? When I see bibliographies at the end of papers produced in India, there are hardly references to anything written by Germans or French scholars. This may partly reflect the state of the local libraries. There is, however, a Sanskrit World Conference coming up in January, and it might be an idea to discuss the question there, in a contest which is not dominated by Westernes. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons why Dumezil's work had trouble reaching the USA was that he wrote in French, which a large number of American scholars do read with ease. That is a pity, because Dumezil was extremely important (no matter what you think of his ideas). To repeat myself: What it boils down to, is communication. If you choose to communicate in a language that a group of potential readers do not read, and refuse to use a language that the same group does read, then you are excluding them. So: Do you want to exclude the readers that don't read French or German? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Sep 13 22:05:00 1996 From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 00:05:00 +0200 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026049.23782.15289916577269941910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse a ecrit le 13 Sep 1996 a 19:31:22 BST: >If I remember correctly, one of the reasons why *Dumezil*'s work >had trouble reaching the USA was that he *wrote in French*, which a large >number of American scholars do read with ease. *That is a pity*, because >Dumezil was extremely important (no matter what you think of his ideas). *c'est moi qui souligne* A part de rappeler que le College de France n'est pas encore une institution americaine, l'etiquette du reseau m'interdit de reagir comme je le devrais aux implications de ce discours; j'espere simplement que le clavier de l'auteur a ete plus vite que sa pensee! FOR NON FRENCH READERS: a translation in English, German, Italian or Sanskrit (all bad but, I hope, understandable) is available by personnal mailing. -------------------------------------------------------------- Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis email : thillaud at unice.fr From ehersak at public.srce.hr Sat Sep 14 02:28:37 1996 From: ehersak at public.srce.hr (Emil Hersak) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 04:28:37 +0200 Subject: scripts Message-ID: <161227026050.23782.8048403019397371933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a note. I was struggling with the notion of whether or not to respond to all the debate on the use of language on this list. Finally, I couldn't help myself. So let me just say that I FULLY SUPPORT all those who have upheld the free use of French and other languages (i.e. languages other than English) in discussion. Of course, I am not criticising English. Personally, my English (Russian and Italian) is better than my French, although I generally have no problem in understandering French, and I welcome all efforts to maintain variety in the exchange of ideas. Language is not just "purely a means of communication" as has been suggested, and neither is French just a "national language". However, I don't wish to continue a polemic, that most probably will not produce results. Sincerely, Emil Hersak (ehersak at public.srce.hr) Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies Zagreb (CROATIA) From kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu Sat Sep 14 13:49:32 1996 From: kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu (Kerry Martin Skora) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 09:49:32 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026057.23782.12840866938936327360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "Sam Bod rGya gSum Shan sByar Gi Tshig mDzod [rNam rGyal Tshe Ring; published by Mi Rigs dPe sKrun Khang, 1991] "gives Sanskrit in Tibetan tranliteration with the Tibetan and Chinese equivalents." [This is according to "Handbook for Tibetan Studies at the University of Virginia. I have not seen this myself.] I hope that's helpful. Kerry Martin Skora/Dept. of Religious Studies/University of Virginia/kms5f at virginia.edu According to Lars Martin Fosse: > > I am forwarding this from another list: > > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:17:48 CDT > From: kozonoj at gunet.georgetown.edu (Joseph Kozono) > Subject: Sanskrit Chinese > > I am not sure if this question has been asked before, but I would like > to know if there is any dictionary or glossary in one form or another > which contains Sanskrit with Chinese (Classical Chinese preferably) > and viceversa, Classical Chinese Sanskrit. If someone in this forum > knows of a resource like this, please let me know. > > Joseph M. Kozono > kozonoj at gunet.georgetown.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Best regards > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Sep 14 11:07:23 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 13:07:23 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026054.23782.8662239642845483259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding this from another list: Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:17:48 CDT From: kozonoj at gunet.georgetown.edu (Joseph Kozono) Subject: Sanskrit Chinese I am not sure if this question has been asked before, but I would like to know if there is any dictionary or glossary in one form or another which contains Sanskrit with Chinese (Classical Chinese preferably) and viceversa, Classical Chinese Sanskrit. If someone in this forum knows of a resource like this, please let me know. Joseph M. Kozono kozonoj at gunet.georgetown.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Best regards Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Sep 14 11:07:51 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 13:07:51 +0200 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026055.23782.13063401638691236085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominique Thillaud, >>If I remember correctly, one of the reasons why *Dumezil*'s work >>had trouble reaching the USA was that he *wrote in French*, which a large >>number of American scholars do read with ease. *That is a pity*, because >>Dumezil was extremely important (no matter what you think of his ideas). >*c'est moi qui souligne* > A part de rappeler que le College de France n'est pas encore une >institution americaine, l'etiquette du reseau m'interdit de reagir comme je >le devrais aux implications de ce discours; j'espere simplement que le >clavier de l'auteur a ete plus vite que sa pensee! Let me first of all quote C. Scott Littleton, who wrote "The New Comparative Mythology. An Anthropological Assessment of the Theories of Georges Dum?zil: "Yet with a very few exceptions, this new comparative mythology [of Dumezil] has been totally ignored by British and American anthropologists, even by those primarily concerned with the analysis of myth and folklore. The principal reason for their neglect - *aside from the fact that as yet none of Dumezil's works have been translated into English* [my emphasis] - would seem to lie in the history of the relationship between comparative mythology ... and anthropology."(p. 2) (Littleton's book was published for the first time in 1966. My own edition, the third, was published in 1982). I see, however, that my posting contains a very unfortunate printing error: "... a large number of American scholars do read with ease" should be "... a large number of American scholars do *not* read with ease. I think Littleton's remark speaks for itself. If the relevant scholars had been able to read French, Dumezil's work (which I admire very much personally, by the way) would have reached the Anglo-Saxon world much quicker. Again, communication is the keyword. Apart from that, no offense was intended. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de Sat Sep 14 13:43:59 1996 From: pwyzlic at pwyz.rhein.de (pwyzlic) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 15:43:59 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026059.23782.10869855200843092697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > I am not sure if this question has been asked before, but I would like > to know if there is any dictionary or glossary in one form or another > which contains Sanskrit with Chinese (Classical Chinese preferably) > and viceversa, Classical Chinese Sanskrit. If someone in this forum > knows of a resource like this, please let me know. Concerning Sanskrit -- Japanese look for : Unrai Wogihara (alias Ogihara): Kan'yaku taisho Bonwa daijiten. (References to Chinese translations are included.) Vice versa is more difficult. How about the indices in Mochizuki Shinko: Bukkyo Daijiten ;)? From nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp Sun Sep 15 03:32:15 1996 From: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp (NOZAWA Masanobu) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 12:32:15 +0900 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026061.23782.2464348441683119065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >I am not sure if this question has been asked before, but I would like >to know if there is any dictionary or glossary in one form or another >which contains Sanskrit with Chinese (Classical Chinese preferably) >and viceversa, Classical Chinese Sanskrit. If someone in this forum >knows of a resource like this, please let me know. An Index to the AbhidharmakozabhaaSya (parts 1 & 2, ed. by A. Hirakawa, Daizo Shuppan, Tokyo 1973) would be very helpful. It cross-refers to the various versions of AKBh in Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese, so it works as a means to know the terminology of Hsuan Tsung and Paramaartha. Mahaavyutpatti (vols 1 & 2, ed. by R. Sakaki, Suzuki Gakujutu Zaidan, Tokyo) might be also useful. NOZAWA Masanobu Numazu College of Technology E-mail: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Sun Sep 15 20:46:58 1996 From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 16:46:58 -0400 Subject: IPSAS 2: Handbook of Pali Literature Message-ID: <161227026063.23782.7766240183694674024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We take pleasure in announcing the release of another book in the new ``Grundriss``: Indian Philology and South Asian Studies (IPSAS), vol. 2: (ed. A.Wezler and M. Witzel), Berlin/New York (de Gruyter) Oskar von Hinuber A Handbook of Pali Literature Berlin/New York (W. de Gruyter), [July] 1996 pp. xiii + 257 --- ISBN 311 014992 3 < A concise discussion in 450 short sections of the various texts of the Tipitaka and of the other texts in Pali language. Excluded are, according to an older plan of a Handbook of Theravada Literature that did not materialize: Law, Medicine and Philology. > For further details, information about ordering, etc., please look up the IPSAS entry via my homepage: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm M.W. From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Sun Sep 15 22:05:43 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:05:43 -0400 Subject: Languages for communication Message-ID: <161227026066.23782.8019915904070257247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All this talk raised a question in my mind: How many non-Indian journals on Indology accept papers written in Tamil, Hindi etc? From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sun Sep 15 21:05:22 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 22:05:22 +0100 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026064.23782.3145216860373286325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse responds to: >>If you restrict postings to the English language, then you merely produce >>the result that some French or German scholars will not post because it >>will be too time-consuming to do so. (Many who are fluent in reading >>English cannot write English at speed.) This would be a loss to us all. with: >I doubt very much that serious French and German scholars would not post >because it would be too time-consuming. If a Norwegian can learn how to >communicate in English, so can the French and the Germans. If a Norwegian can learn to communicate in English, then we can all learn to communicate in Chinese. There is a large body of people in China we could write for. It is not a question of what we can do. It is a question of which investments of our time we choose to make and how we are taught languages in school. Undoubtedly any capable scholar could learn to be fluent in any given language. But does he want to spend his time doing that. >The important >question is: How many in the world community of Indologists are able to read >French and German (not to mention Russian and Italian) with ease? When I see >bibliographies at the end of papers produced in India, there are hardly >references to anything written by Germans or French scholars. This may >partly reflect the state of the local libraries. Surely this represents a failure to learn to communicate in French and German. >There is, however, a >Sanskrit World Conference coming up in January, and it might be an idea to >discuss the question there, in a contest which is not dominated by >Westernes. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons why Dumezil's work >had trouble reaching the USA was that he wrote in French, which a large >number of American scholars do read with ease. That is a pity, because >Dumezil was extremely important (no matter what you think of his ideas). I do not know about American scholars, but British scholars certainly read Dumezil in French as he was published. The reason they did not refer to him much was because they did not rate his ideas very highly ! >To >repeat myself: What it boils down to, is communication. If you choose to >communicate in a language that a group of potential readers do not read, and >refuse to use a language that the same group does read, then you are >excluding them. So: Do you want to exclude the readers that don't read >French or German? That's absurd. By that argument the use of any language would involve a decision to exclude the majority of the world that don't read that language - even English isn't that widely read ! As far as I am concerned, contributions in Norwegian would be perfectly welcome. (But I would reply in English!) Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 16 14:26:50 1996 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:26:50 -0500 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026078.23782.10383948564706186793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > You and I could very well communicate in that way, but the others would > immediately drop out of the conversation. I have no problem accepting the > use of Europe's "canonical" languages (English, French, German, Italian and > Spanish) in scholarly debates as long as we are among Europeans. But > Indology is a global business. The question is: Is it fair to our colleagues > in India, Japan and elsewhere in Asia to expect them to work their way > through four or five European languages to be able to participate in a > discussion, when we could agree upon using one language. Even if English is > not quite so universal as some people might think it is still the Latin of > our time. Right, I would love to learn all these European languages and have access to loads of scholarly literature in those langauges. But before I can get to doing that, as an Indian, there are *three* Indian languages that I *must* learn for various important purposes: the national language -- Hindi, the language of my state -- Tamil, and my community language -- Konkani. Its not that I'm not open to learning European languages -- I *have* learned some Italian, French, and Spanish but not enough to understand advanced discussions in those languages. So I, for one, would prefer it if English was used as the business language on Indology. Gail From als1 at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Sep 16 14:33:02 1996 From: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu (william j alspaugh) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:33:02 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026077.23782.5198727925863900747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the subject of Chinese-Sanskrit and vice-versa dictionaries, a search on Firstsearch (OCLC) under subject on the three terms Sanskrit, Chinese, and Dictionaries produces 54 titles. They are an interesting collection of ancient and modern dictionaries. Rather than trying to list all here, I suggest to Joseph Kozono and others interested that they do the same search. If you have questions, ask your reference librarian. The same search can be done on RLIN. The LC subject heading for S-C would be Sanskrit Language - Dictionaries - Chinese. Bill Alspaugh, Southern Asia Collection, University of Chicago Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon Sep 16 15:35:37 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 11:35:37 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026080.23782.1380843060944305590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know if others have already addressed this question, but of course there are a large number of indicies of Sanskrit / Chinese Buddhist texts. A good first source (without, however, precise references) is Wogihara Unrai, Bonwa Daijiten, nominally a Skt. / Japanese dictionary, but more useful (to nonJapanese anyway) for its Chinese translation quotations. silk From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Sep 16 11:47:07 1996 From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 11:47:07 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026068.23782.17942216479824297706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:52:12 BST > Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Kerry Martin Skora > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Sanskrit-Chinese Hello all of you, again two interesting books are mentioned, which I would like to have in our library. Does anybody know details about that "Handbook for Tibetan Studies at the University of Virginia" - is it available somehow or only for internal use? Who are the authors/editors? - And the Tibetan book, was it published in India, or where? > The "Sam Bod rGya gSum Shan sByar Gi Tshig mDzod [rNam rGyal > Tshe Ring; published by Mi Rigs dPe sKrun Khang, 1991] "gives > Sanskrit in Tibetan tranliteration with the Tibetan and Chinese > equivalents." [This is according to "Handbook for Tibetan > Studies at the University of Virginia. I have not seen this > myself.] I hope that's helpful. Kerry Martin Skora/Dept. of > Religious Studies/University of Virginia/kms5f at virginia.edu Thanks Gabriele Zeller ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr Gabriele Zeller Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 72016 Tuebingen Tel:+49-7071-2974030 Fax:+49-7071-293123 ---------------------------------------------------------- From francois at sas.ac.uk Mon Sep 16 12:04:27 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 13:04:27 +0100 Subject: Lactation Message-ID: <161227026070.23782.5463332947438499640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My warmest thanks for references regarding my query on Indian parallels to St Bernard's lactation. These are extremely useful and appreciated. Best wishes to all Francois Quiviger From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Mon Sep 16 18:03:38 1996 From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 14:03:38 -0400 Subject: Subscribing to IJTS Message-ID: <161227026082.23782.17874766164949704311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Simply send the message subscribe to: ijts-list-request at shore.net and you will receive automated confimation of your (free) subscription. If you have any problems, write to me and I will see that you get subscribed. Michael Witzel Managing Editor, International Journal of Tantric Studies (ijts-list at shore.net) (www.shore.net/~india/ijts) NB. same procedure for ejvs and jsaws. ---------------------------------------------- On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Natha Pratityananda wrote: > Please tell me how do I subscribe to IJTS. I have only EMail > services, I cannot navigate. > ThankYou > > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Sep 16 12:57:12 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 14:57:12 +0200 Subject: language for communication Message-ID: <161227026072.23782.14438323516434492094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >>I doubt very much that serious French and German scholars would not post >>because it would be too time-consuming. If a Norwegian can learn how to >>communicate in English, so can the French and the Germans. > >If a Norwegian can learn to communicate in English, then we can all learn >to communicate in Chinese. There is a large body of people in China we >could write for. Certainly, given time, resources and motivation. One problem though: Chinese is not a "world language" quite in the sense that English is (in spite of the fact that it is spoken by a rather large number of people). If I may remind you, English is the European language that most educated Indians master. English is already established in a large number of fields as the international means of communication. >It is not a question of what we can do. It is a question of which >investments of our time we choose to make and how we are taught languages >in school. Undoubtedly any capable scholar could learn to be fluent in any >given language. But does he want to spend his time doing that. In other words: Does he really want to communicate? This line of argument seems absurd to me. If I were to write in Norwegian, which you suggest I could, I would hardly communicate at all. This is a situation known to all speakers of minority languages. When it comes to communication, there are no free lunches either. But anyway, you touch upon something which is important in this context: Is it fair to demand of our Asian / Indian colleagues that they should spend their time learning a few extra European languages instead of learning other Asian languages. If I were a Hindi speaker, I might find it more profitable for various reasons to spend my time learning Bengali or Marathi than on learning, say, French, Russian or German. Europeans may want to learn these languages for various reasons - not only Indological - and also have easy access to study material and ample opportunity to practice. >>The important >>question is: How many in the world community of Indologists are able to read >>French and German (not to mention Russian and Italian) with ease? When I see >>bibliographies at the end of papers produced in India, there are hardly >>references to anything written by Germans or French scholars. This may >>partly reflect the state of the local libraries. > >Surely this represents a failure to learn to communicate in French and German. > >>There is, however, a >>Sanskrit World Conference coming up in January, and it might be an idea to >>discuss the question there, in a contest which is not dominated by >>Westernes. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons why Dumezil's work >>had trouble reaching the USA was that he wrote in French, which a large >>number of American scholars do read with ease. That is a pity, because >>Dumezil was extremely important (no matter what you think of his ideas). > >I do not know about American scholars, but British scholars certainly read >Dumezil in French as he was published. The reason they did not refer to him >much was because they did not rate his ideas very highly ! Here I can only refer to my quotation from Littleton: "Yet with a very few exceptions, this new comparative mythology [of Dumezil] has been totally ignored by British and American anthropologists, even by those primarily concerned with the analysis of myth and folklore. The principal reason for their neglect - *aside from the fact that as yet none of Dumezil's works have been translated into English* [my emphasis] - would seem to lie in the history of the relationship between comparative mythology ... and anthropology."(p. 2) But my information may be too limited. >>To >>repeat myself: What it boils down to, is communication. If you choose to >>communicate in a language that a group of potential readers do not read, and >>refuse to use a language that the same group does read, then you are >>excluding them. So: Do you want to exclude the readers that don't read >>French or German? > >That's absurd. By that argument the use of any language would involve a >decision to exclude the majority of the world that don't read that language >- even English isn't that widely read ! I fail to see the logic of this argument. We are writing for a certain scholarly community, primarily other Indologists, but also for any other scholar who for various reasons takes an interest in Indological matters. The vast majority of these people are capable of communication in English. This is not true of other languages. Using English as a "business language" is a pragmatic recognition of the fact that this is the vehicle that reaches most people. >As far as I am concerned, contributions in Norwegian would be perfectly >welcome. (But I would reply in English!) You and I could very well communicate in that way, but the others would immediately drop out of the conversation. I have no problem accepting the use of Europe's "canonical" languages (English, French, German, Italian and Spanish) in scholarly debates as long as we are among Europeans. But Indology is a global business. The question is: Is it fair to our colleagues in India, Japan and elsewhere in Asia to expect them to work their way through four or five European languages to be able to participate in a discussion, when we could agree upon using one language. Even if English is not quite so universal as some people might think it is still the Latin of our time. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Sep 16 12:57:46 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 14:57:46 +0200 Subject: Languages for communication Message-ID: <161227026075.23782.16357216045595941795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 23:18 15.09.96 BST, you wrote: > >All this talk raised a question in my mind: How many non-Indian journals >on Indology accept papers written in Tamil, Hindi etc? > That is a very good point! Lars Martin Fosse From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Mon Sep 16 20:13:36 1996 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 22:13:36 +0200 Subject: typing Sanskrit an other Indian languages Message-ID: <161227026083.23782.5623898421442582901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to answer Sundaresan Vidyasankar but first I would like to say something of a more general nature. 1) I agree the idea of a discussion on Roman script presentation of Indic words and texts on the Conference in Bangalore is quite convincing. (I do not remember all list members who proposed it so I do not mention names for fear of being unjust. My editor does not allow me to check it right now - imperialism of programmers ;-)). Indian "Sillicon Valley" seems a right spot for talk on computers. As for myself, I cannot afford to go to India for the conference but I would ask for the right to suggest the discussion should start with * general questions and decisions on qualities of an acceptable future system (points similar to what I presented before plus possibly some other) and then move to * either decide on more detailed but still general solutions or choose some of proposals in existence. 2) However, if the discussion had to be limited simply to making a choice of a small group of trusted people who are computer experts and whose task would be to decide on the matter I think it would be better conducted in the framework of the INDOLOGY list. (I do not know the program of the Conference and this is the reason I think the participants may not be ready for discussion on the problem and may decide on experts). And now for Sundaresan Vidyasankar letter (BTW thank you for comments) > I agree that it is useful to have Roman script transcription of Indic > languages for computer screens. However, I think we must remember that the > computer screen is, for all purposes, a different medium than paper. This > has implications for some of the points below. Let me add it is inconvenient to type on an ordinary tapewriter as well. Still ... > > > II) What features should such a system of transcription possess? > > I think it should: > > > > 1) be close to traditional (especially internationally accepted) systems of > > transcription for languages in question. > > This may be desirable, but here it is important to remember that the > traditional system of transcription is meant for printed matter. Computers > being more than a medium to present text, it is conceivable that a scheme > evolved for computer screens differs widely in some repects from the > accepted transliteration schemes. Agreed. However, I would like it happen in an organized, rational way. > > * It would be no major problem if the same sounds were rendered by > > different sets af signs in different languages (that is their respective > > systems of transcriptions) especially when the languages are either very > > different or spoken by people who leave far away from one another. You can > > always mark the language the word belong to in case of doubt eg. skr. > > > > 2) It should not go against internationally accepted conventions of using > > Roman script (like usage of capital letters). Let us not get mistaken by > > names like INTRANS which are rather expression of aspiration (and tool of > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > You are talking of ITRANS, I suppose. I was talking about general trend in new names formed with "inter", "continental", "logy" etc. The names suggest some qualities which are not always generaly ascribed to the objects of reference. It is obvious I cannot prove any intentions of the creators of names. I am simply noticing impressions their creation gives. > > promotion) than real respect for international conventions. > > I beg to differ, especially on the use of capital letters. If an entire > text is to be transcribed, there is no reason why conventions of Roman > script should be strictly adhered to. The Roman script becomes simply a > convenient medium to present a text in a non-European language. > > Conventions regarding the use of capital letters are not uniform. In > English, one does not use the capital letter to begin every noun. In > German, I still see the use of capital letters for every proper and common > noun. I don't know how it is in Swedish or some other European language, > but I can generally identify that a scientific paper is by an author from > Europe, if it uses capital letters in words like "Sulphuric Acid" or > "Carbon", even in the middle of a sentence. These words would not be > capitalized by British, Indian and American authors, unless they occur at > the beginning of the sentence. It is true that some of the national conventions differ. However, I think the majority of national conventions (and perhaps all in Latin script) accept that: 1) the first word of a sentence starts with a capital letter; 2) capital letters do not occur in the middle or at the end of a word. Of course, I remember the international convention for Sanskrit et al. but I think one should respect the ways of majority. As for "A" meaning long "a" I think it is also less convenient than "aa". > Given these differences in conventions among the traditional users of > Roman script, I see nothing problematic with using capital letters for > transcription, especially if there are easy software solutions that > convert the transcribed text to an Indic script. These conventions are > still ad-hoc, but the governing motive is ease of use, rather than any > ambition for self-promotion. They are not so easy to learn and they differ largely from other conventions what in the whole context makes them problematic. > I can easily write "ISa", "Ananda", "tIrtha", "maTha" and so on. You > simply mark the language as Sanskrit or Hindi or whatever else, and cease > to expect European conventions for the use of the Roman script. Let me notice what you call "European conventions" is observed in both of Americas, partly Africa, Australia and partly Asia. The capital letter means a lot for many people eg. God and god very often suggest different notions. > This peculiar use of capital letters, if accepted on a popular level, will > just become another convention for computer-oriented use of the Roman > script for Indic languages. There is no reason why transliteration > conventions developed in the context of print media should restrict those > developed for computer screens. They should be taken into account while forming new conventions for computers. It is a question of convenience in a larger context. > For the sake of continuity, the existing > conventions may be taken as normative, but need not become prescriptive. True. > > 4) It should be relatively easy to type for many people (and not only to > > a few martyrs who produce devanagari electronic texts and differ largely > > in their ways; my high regards and thanks to them for their benedictine work) > > The use of capital letters satisfies this criterion too, does it not? Yes, it is. However, this is only one of the criteria. Regards, Leslaw Borowski From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Sep 17 17:44:02 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 10:44:02 -0700 Subject: Muni Jambuvijaya's Adress Message-ID: <161227026087.23782.17953837208291984650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a Jain monk, Muni Jambuvijaya generally does not stay at one place for a long time except during the rainy season. The only concession he has made to himself in view of his scholarly and research interests (it is not easy to transport the books he needs to all the places at which he resides) and his advanced age is that his stays at any one place are not very short and that he generally moves only in the radius of a few kilometres around the sacred place of Sankheshwar/Shankheshwar. The best way to arrange a meeting with him is to write to the following address and find out where he is likely to be at the time of the planned visit. The lay disciples invariably ensure that Muniji gets the message. Muniji usually manages to write back in a few days. Address: Muni Jambuvijay, c/o Mr. Jitendra Manilal Sa?ghavi, A/3 Chandanabala Apartment, Nava-vikasa-griha Rd., Ashoknagar, Paladi, Ahmedabad 380 007. Other possible contact addresses: (a) c/o Himmatlal Sanghavi. Adariyana 382 780, Via Viramgam, Gujarat. (b) c/o Visanima Bhavan, Taleti Rd., Palitana 364 270. (c) c/o Jain Atmanand Sabha, Khargate, Bhavnagar, Saurashtra, Gujarat, 364 001. From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Tue Sep 17 18:22:49 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 14:22:49 -0400 Subject: Temporary Address for Correspondence Message-ID: <161227026089.23782.13671948472270764131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings: This is addressed to those of you who correspond with me. My apologies to others. Also, apologies to those who recieve more than one copy of this notice, which is crossposted. End of this month I'm off to India for four months' of field and library research. My contact address in India for the period Oct 8, 1996-Jan 20, 1997 is Sushil Mittal Prem Sadan Roshan Ganj, Holigate Mathura, U.P. 281 001 INDIA I can be reached daily by PHONE at 91-565-404932, until noon EST; by FAX (upon voice request) at 91-565-408498 (please put "c/o Ghurrimal Bhikkimal" beside my name); by EMAIL at (please put my name against the subject). PLEASE NOTE: -Best time to send a fax is between 6 to 10 am EST. -I will be checking my email messages once every ten days or so, since the computer account is in another city, New Delhi. With cordial regards, sushil mittal From kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp Tue Sep 17 15:04:19 1996 From: kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 00:04:19 +0900 Subject: Muni Jambuvijaya's Adress Message-ID: <161227026085.23782.17790712525379744085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I want to contact with Muni Jambuvijaya. If anyone know the way to contact with him, please tell me. Best Regards Yasuhiro Okazaki 545 Arima, Chiyoda-cho, Yamagata-gun, Hiroshima-ken, 731-15 Japan E-mail:kappa-y at po.iijnet.or.jp or :khb12400 at niftyserve.or.jp TEL&FAX +81-826-72-8851 From HEIJSTEE at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Wed Sep 18 10:28:39 1996 From: HEIJSTEE at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (HEIJSTEE at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:28:39 +0100 Subject: GG Message-ID: <161227026091.23782.11605882049955750940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> \dn namaste ji I'm applying the Generative Grammar, or Transformational Grammar according to Chomsky 1986 to the classical Sanskrit language. However, I do not know whether most/few indologist around the world have some knowledge about this grammar, which is already taught to students of modern, presumably European, languages. Do you think it would be a good idea to explain this grammar in one or two chapters in my forthcoming book before I get to the point in the next chapter? Or do you think I can skip this sketch and come to the point immediately? And give a very brief review of the GG, or TG, in the general Introduction? By the way, who's interested in the GG in the field of Sanskrit text research? \bye Sandra Van der Geer CNWS University of Leiden The Netherlands "heijstee at rullet.leidenuniv.nl" From jakub at unipune.ernet.in Wed Sep 18 17:42:08 1996 From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 12:42:08 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026092.23782.10721260788039199640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not scientific terminology, but once we are talking about Skt borrowings into modern languages of Europe, it might be of interest to someone that to literary criticism terminology of Czech language. and now simply as the basic word designating "stanza" in general language as well Sanskrit "sloka" was borrowed From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 18 20:22:56 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 13:22:56 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026094.23782.13436344585460835555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, There is a crater on the surface of Mercury called Vyasa, and another one called Valmiki. And, on Venus, there is a plain by the name of Lakshmi Planum. I have no idea who named them. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Sep 19 05:16:23 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 22:16:23 -0700 Subject: Ramanuja and Gaudapada Karika I.16. Message-ID: <161227026096.23782.15608277517860791391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few weeks ago, Howard Resnick (Hrid at aol.com) asked a question about Ramanuja's quotation of the GK: "Does Ramanuja's use of the word "SrUyate" with reference to GK I.16 mean that he accords GK (or part of it) the status of Sruti?" I have asked a few Sri Vaishnavas about it, and there does not seem to be any fixed opinion about it. One author, Kuranarayana, takes a position similar to Madhva, with respect to GK I. In his Brahmasutra Bhashya, Ramanuja quotes GK I.16 in the advaita purvapaksha. But it looks as if GK is not quoted by Ramanuja elsewhere. It turns out that Thibaut has identified one of Ramanuja's quotations: "ajAyamAno bahudhA..." as being from GK. However, this quotation could well be from the Taittiriya Aranyaka, not from GK. In the specific context of his quotation of GK I.16, Ramanuja is in the middle of the advaita pUrvapaksha. GK is not quoted in his own siddhAnta. Therefore, whether he accords to it Sruti status or not, would depend on the way the entire passage is constructed. If it is his own sentence, then the question is valid. However, if the word "SrUyate" is actually put in the mouth of the pUrvapakshin (the advaitin), that says nothing about whether Ramanuja himself accepts GK as Sruti (technically unauthored) or not. In this case, "SrUyate" could well be used in a loose sense, because the advaitin certainly does not say that the GK is unauthored Sruti. S. Vidyasankar From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Thu Sep 19 11:10:13 1996 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 13:10:13 +0200 Subject: Leiden: Indo-European Course Register Message-ID: <161227026097.23782.290934489718322285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indo-European Course Register You can find now the Course Register for Leiden (Holland) See following URL: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/curric/idg-ws96.html#Leiden From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Sep 19 15:29:46 1996 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 16:29:46 +0100 Subject: Error Condition Re: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026101.23782.10024810366679669748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As noted below your messages to indology will be ignored unless you join. Instructions for joining are as follows: To join the Indologists' list INDOLOGY: 1) Send mail to listproc at liverpool.ac.uk 2) Omit the subject 3) Send a one line message of the form: SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY Joe Bloggs (replace Joe Bloggs with your own name) 4) Shortly after successfully joining you will receive a welcome message. PLEASE keep this in a safe place....it contains important information which you will need if and when you decide to leave INDOLOGY. Chris Wooff (Owner of Indology list) In the last mail indology at liverpool.ac.uk said: > > kjkarttu at elo.helsinki.fi: You are not subscribed to indology at liverpool.ac.uk. > Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe, > send mail to listproc at liverpool.ac.uk with the following request: > > subscribe INDOLOGY Your Name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology, reply to P. Kiparsky > > For various reasons (I have no e-mail connection at home and no time to > go through so many messages at Institute) I do not obtain the Indology > mail, but by kindness of colleagues Kiparsky's question of 12th > September and Wyzlic's notes of 13th September have reached me. I hope > this answer will also reach Kiparsky. > Bollensen had moved to Kazan in 1852 and to Germany in 1858. Petrov > taught in Moscow. Minaev (1840-90) was still student in Germany and > started his teaching in St. Petersburg only in 1869. As was noted by > Wyzlic, Boehtlingk never lectured and Roth did not even live in Russia. > The man in charge of Sanskrit at the Oriental Faculty of St. Petersburg > University was Kaetan Andreevich Kossovich (1815-1883), known of an > unfinished Sanskrit-Russian dictionary (1854-56), of an edition of Old > Persian cuneiform inscriptions (1872), of several Avestic studies and > translations of Indian classics into Russian (parts of the Mbh and some > dramas). He started his Sanskrit teaching at the Oriental Faculty in > 1858, became Professor in 1860, with chair in 1866. As far as I know he > was the only teacher of Sanskrit in St.Petersburg in the 1860s. More > about him can be found in JRAS 1883, p. xxiii-xxiv, in Biogr. slovar' > S.-Peterb. univ. 1, 1896, 346-354 and in Bongard-Levin & Vigasin, The > Image of India, Moscow 1984, 71-73. Further sources (not checked by me) > are M._O. Marks in Russk. Star. 52, 1886, 605-620; I._B. in Zhurnal Min. > Narodn. Prosv. 1883 March 226, 35-42, and A._Ja. Garkavi in Izv. Imp. > Arh. Obshch. 10, 433-487. > P.S. After writing this I was shown a message with suggestion that > Sanskrit terms in question may have been learnt abroad. This is of > course quite possible, too. > > Klaus Karttunen > > > > From athr at loc.gov Thu Sep 19 20:49:53 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 16:49:53 -0400 Subject: Exchange materials from LC Message-ID: <161227026103.23782.5046329507910507287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following South and Southeast Asian materials are available to libraries having an exchange relationship with the Library of Congress. Please respond directly to me at ATHR at LOC.GOV instead of the network (unless the manager of the network suggests otherwise). Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave. Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov BOOKS FOR EXCHANGE AND GIFT 1 copy unless noted. SOUTH ASIA: BENGALI: Roy, Arun Shankar. Banajangalera chara. Calcutta: Di. Em. Laibreri, 1977, 40 pp. Poetry. Juvenile. BENGALI AND ENGLISH: Prabandha sucipatra.[serial] Dhaka. vol. 1, no. 2, covering 1974, pub. 1976. [index of Bangladesh newspapers; may complete some library's set] 2 copies ENGLISH: Singh, Harnam. "The Indian states : a study of their constitutional position" and Das, Taraknath. "Reviews of books on India." New York: Academy of Political Science, 1949. Reprinted from Political Science Quarterly, v. 44, no. 1, 1949. Crosthwaite, Sir Chalrees Haukes Todd. Report on the settlement of the Etawah District for the years 1868 to 1874. Allahabad : North- Western Provinces Government Press, 1875. i, 129, 25 p., [1] leaf of plates : map. (held by SAMP) Jagadisa Ayyar, P.V. Moral stories. Srirangam : Sri Vani Vilas Press, 1928, iii, 56 (puranic and epic stories in English) Sri Lanka. Ministry of State. Ministry of State publications. (These may have come directly to Washington and not via the field office, and therefore may not have been acquired by those PL480 participants who subscribed to ephemera from Sri Lanka.) 1. The human rights situation in Sri Lanka : statement by Mr. H. W. Jayewardene, Q.C., Sri Lanka's representative to the 41st Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights - Geneva, 1985. 2. The human rights situation in Sri Lanka : statement by Mr. H. W. Jayewardene, Q.C., Sri Lanka's representative to the 41st Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights - Geneva, 1986. 3. Sri Lanka - who wants a separate state. Amarasekera, Anil. The crisis in Sri Lanka. Colombo, 1975, 17 p. LCCN 77-906348. Mukerji, Prafulla C., et al. Rabindranath Tagore Centenary. N.p. : No publisher, n. d. {New York : Rabindranath Tagore Centenary Committee in America), 1961 or 1962?}. Together with playbill (2 copies) and program of production of King of the Dark Chamber at Jan Hus House, New York, February 9 {1962?)- . Tagore, Sourindro Mohun. The Shadja-grama and the european diatonic scale. For submission before the Fifth International Congress of Orientalist to be held at Berlin in September 1881. Calcutta, 1891. 1 p. (Broadside). Many copies. GERMAN: Comite ufer die Feier des fuenfundzwanzigjaehrigen Bestehens der Deutschen Morgenlaendischen Gesellschaft. An die Herren H. Brockhaus, H.L. Fleischer, A. Pott, E. Roediger. Leipzig, 18970, 4 p. (Broadside). GUJARATI: Bhojani, Dahyabhai Tulasidasa et al. Sarala Balapothi. Ahmedabad: the authors, 1944. 32 pp. [primer with attractive art work]. 6 copies HINDI: Publications of Madhya Pradesh. Samaja Sikshana Vibhaga [These are in very simple language but appear to be for adult neoliterates rather than children. Duplicate copies will eventually appear in a fiched collection from Library of Congress, New Delhi. They are undated but bear 1954 accessions stamps.] Muktibodha, Saratcandra. Vu-linga aura vinayaka. 20 pp. Ibid. Motijhira. 14pp. Nayaka, Jivana. Durgavati. 18pp. Ibid. Hamara bhojana. 14pp. Ibid. Hamara ghara. 16pp. Duplicates of Christian tracts: Dharmapustaka ka sara. Substance of the Bible. Allahabad: North India Tract Society, printed at N. C. Orphan Press, 1866. 37 p. Ibid. Allahabad: North India Tract Society, printed at Allahabad Mission Press, 1873, 13 p. Itihasamala. Choice stories. Christian Vernacular Education Society, printed at Allahabad Mission Press, 1875. 16 p. Hindu objections refuted. Badanibarana. 2nd ed. Mirzapore: Orphan School Press, on behalf of the North India Tract Society, 1860. 95 p. 3 copies. Rama pariksha. Ram pariksha. 4th ed. N.I.T.S. printed at Allahabad Mission Press, 1873. 33 p. Misc. duplicate of pre-program imprints: Hand book to Hindostanee conversation. Serampore: Tomohur Press, 1857. 63 p. Fragile but still in original paper covers. Vrndakavi. Vrndasatasai. Kalyana: Lakshmivenkatesvara Chapakhana, Samvat 1980, 91p. Blackie, John Stuart. Jana Stuarta Blaiki : Blaikike Phijikala- vyayamam svasthya, kalcara (raksha) ka hindi anuvada, udaharana sameta. trans. Tripathi, Bhagavan Carana. Bombay: Khemaraja Srikrshnadasa, Samvat 1964, 108 p. Dandin. Dasakumaracarita Hindibhashamarmanuvada. Kalyana-Bambai: Lakshmivenkatesvara Stima Presa. 1937. 162 p. Kalisantaranopanisat bhasatikasahita. Kalyana: Lakshmivenkatesvara Chapakhana, Samvat 1978, 16 p. Ranka, Rishabhadasa. Pyare raja beta. Pahala Bhaga. ed, Jaina, Jamanalala. Vardha: Sri Bharata Jaina Mahamandala, 1950. Sv. Rajendra Smrti Grantha-mala, 1. 89pp. [Jaina book for boys] Kulapatimisra. Durggabhakticandrika. Prathama bhaga. Durgasaptasatika ka chandobaddha bhashanuvada. Bambai: Jnanasagara Pres, Samvat 1963. 2, 48 p. Anthologies of literature (textbooks) (PL480 ephemera) Subodha katha kunja. 1966. Subodha katha kavya sumana. 1969. Subodha hindi gadya gaurava. 1971, Gadya-manjari. 1969. All from Radhakrshna Prakasana, Dilli. Misc.: Madhya Pradesh, India (State). Dept. of Information and Publicity. Phasalom ke kharab hone par lagana ki chuta auta vasuli ki roka : eka prasnottari. Gvaliyara, 1958 [?]. 11 p. (catechism for farmers on protecting crops, simple language) Subrahmanya, Gurti. Chatrapati Sivaji. Prayaga: Hindi Sahitya Sammelana, V.S. 2002, 53 pp. Bala-sahitya-mala, 6. (juvenile). Tagore, Rabindranath. Caturanga. trans. Mohanalala Bajapayi. Kalakatta: Visvabharati, 1945. 115 p. HINDUSTANI (Roman script) Sawal o jawab i mukhtasar. Lodiana: American Presbyterian Mission Press, 1859. 44 p. KANNADA About 27 paperback booklets of around 50 p. from University of Mysore, Prasaranga, introductions to various subjects. (PL480 ephemera) MARATHI Maharashtra, India (State). Directorate of Publicity. Yojanene apalyasathi kaya kele. Mumabi: Sasakiya Madhyavarit Mudranalaya, 1961. 28 p. sa68-10784. HC437 .M32 A32 (Orien Mar) (Simple language for farmers on development.) Tolstoy, Lev. Mulamsathim goshthi. trans. Umakanta Mokasi. Moscow: Pragati Prakasana, n.d. ill. (color). (Children's stories.) PRAKRIT: Kundakunda. Rayasara. Hindi trans. Jnanasagara Maharaja. Dilli: Sri Acaryaratna Desabhusana Maharaja Caturmasa Samiti, 1964. 130 p. SANSKRIT: Udayaprabhadevasuri. Arambhasiddhi. Sribhavanagara : Vidyavijaya Mudranalaya, 1916. Available on fiche from LC as LCCN 81-901686. Ojha, Madhusudana Sarma. Dasavadarahasyam. Ed. Pradyumnasarma. Jayapura: Rajasthana Printinga Warksa, V.S. 1998. 3, 23, 2 p. TAMIL: Beschi, Constantine Giuseppe. Vetiyarolukkam; or, Instructions to catechists. Madras: American Mission Press, 1849. 232 p. URDU: Gibson, Katherine. Pictures to grow up with. More pictures to grow up with. Urdu. Lahore : Allied Press, n.d. (1950s). Juvenile. I grew up with these two books (English version) and highly recommend them. I haven't been able to find any introduction to art for children as good in print. POSTERS: WWII civil defense posters: Protect your home, your family. Join the A.R.P. [Presumably Air Raid Precautions]. In English. Plane dropping bombs. In an air-raid take cover and be safe. In English. People in dress of various communities getting into trench shelter. 4 copies. Anti-goonda posters: presumably against the Non-Cooperation Movement: Ye hai gundom ka parakram! Relem band.... In Hindi. Burnt railway station, destroyed tracks, empty shops, etc. National War Front posters: Rashtriya Yuddh Morca banaiye. In Hindi. Hand holding aloft dagger. Mitrata ki batem, dushtata ke kam. Japaniyom ke viruddh Rashtriya Yuddhmorca banaiye. In Hindi and Panjabi. Tojo smiling at radio mike and bucktoothed scowling soldiers. SOUTHEAST ASIA: LISU: Veixxo motgguat. PRC imprint. 1980. 190 p. Appears to be verse. Roman script. SGAU KAREN: Bible. Karen. London: British and Foreign Bible Society, 1941. Various paginations. Photographic reprint of 1921 ed. of same publisher. T'UNG (A.K.A. TUN, KAM): Min2cus Vabau (T'ung language version of Min tsu hua pao=Mintzu huabao, PRC pictorial on nationalities). Characted represented here by "2" is sometimes like a reversed lower case "s" and sometimes like a Gaelic "g." 1962, no. 10, 1963, nos. 1-5, 7-11, 1965, nos. 1-2, 4-12 (2nd or 3rd duplicates available of 1963, nos. 1-2, 4-5, 9, 11-12). From kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp Thu Sep 19 15:16:20 1996 From: kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (kappa-y at sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 00:16:20 +0900 Subject: Thanks Muni Jambuvijaya's Adress Message-ID: <161227026099.23782.1139961552451986919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Aklujkar I am thanking for your support. I know Muni Jambuvijaya does not stay one place for a long time, and that fact makes me confused. Your information will be helpful to my study. Thank you. Best Regards Yasuhiro Okazaki 545 Arima, Chiyoda-cho, Yamagata-gun, Hiroshima-ken, 731-15 Japan E-mail:kappa-y at po.iijnet.or.jp or :khb12400 at niftyserve.or.jp TEL&FAX +81-826-72-8851 From magier at columbia.edu Fri Sep 20 17:03:02 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 13:03:02 -0400 Subject: new book announcement Message-ID: <161227026105.23782.15755916865954183934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following new book announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list by The South Asia Gopher. Please respond directly to the editor below if you have further questions. David Magier =================================================== From: tkbhatia at mailbox.syr.edu Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:35:48 -0500 To: David Magier Subject: Re: Handbook of second language acquisition Handbook of Second Language Acquisition Edited by William C. Ritchie and Tej K. Bhatia Syracuse University, New York January 1996, 758 pp., $69.95/ISBN: 0-12-589042-7 A comprehensive reference source, Handbook of Second Language Acquisition discusses the research, theory, and applications specific to second language acquisition. The book addresses: Issues of maturation and modularity Language transfer between first and second languages Neuropsychology of second language acquisition Research and methodological issues in the study of second language acquisition Language contact and its consequences CONTENTS: W.C. Ritchie and T.K. Bhatia, Second Language Acquisition: Introduction, Foundations, and Overview. Research and Theoretical Issues in Second Language Acquisition: K.R. Gregg, The Logical and Developmental Problems of Second Language Acquisition. Issues of Maturation and Modularity in Second Language Acquisition: L. White, Universal Grammar and Second Language Acquisition: Current Trends and New Directions. S. Flynn, A Parameter-Setting Approach to Second Language Acquisition. J. Schachter, Maturation and the Issue of Universal Grammar in Second Language Acquisition. F.R. Eckman, A Functional-Typological Approach to Second Language Acquisition Theory. B. McLaughlin and R. Heredia, Information-Processing Approaches to Research on Second Language Acquisition and Use. D. Preston, Variationist Linguistics and Second Language Acquisition. Second Language Speech and the Influence of the First Language: J. Leather and A. James, Second Language Speech. S. Gass, Second Language Acquisition and Linguistic Theory: The Role of Language Transfer. Research Methodology and Applications: D. Nunan, Issues in Second Language Acquisition Research: Examining Substance and Procedure. A. Sorace, The Use of Acceptability Judgments in Second Language Acquisition Research. Modality and the Linguistic Environment in Second Language Acquisition: M.H. Long, The Role of the Linguistic Environment in Second Language Acquisition. G.P. Berent, The Acquisition of English Syntax by Deaf Learners. The Neuropsychology of Second Language Acquisition and Use: L.K. Obler and S. Hannigan, Neurolinguistics of Second Language Acquisition and Use. Language Contact and its Consequences: R.W. Anderson and Y. Shirai, The Primacy of Aspect in First and Second Language Acquisition: The Pidgin-Creole Connection. S. Romaine, Bilingualism. H.W. Seliger, Primary Language Attrition in the Context of Bilingualism. T.K. Bhatia and W.C. Ritchie, Bilingual Language Mixing, Universal Grammar, and Second Language Acquisition. Glossary. Author Index. Subject Index. Tej Bhatia From conlon at u.washington.edu Sat Sep 21 15:41:48 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 08:41:48 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Burton Stein Memorial Fund (fwd) Message-ID: <161227026109.23782.7856279572627037641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: for the information of subscribers to the Indology list. Frank Conlon From: Frank Conlon To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA Subject: H-ASIA: Burton Stein Memorial Fund H-ASIA September 21, 1996 The Burton Stein Memorial Fund *************************************************************************** Ed. note: At the time of my posting of Burton Stein's obituary last spring, and again this past week with the notice of the memorial workshop, some H-ASIA readers have sent queries about whether there was any memorial fund to which they could contribute. Burt's widow, Dorothy Stein, has sent me the following note, which both identifies a wonderfully appropriate form remembering and honoring Burt, and eloquently adds a further dimension to our understanding of this remarkable man. I should note for H-ASIA members in the U. S. that Dorothy is able to accept dollar checks (payable to her with an indication that it is for the Burton Stein Memorial Fund). F.F.C. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dorothy Stein BURTON STEIN 1926-1996 To friends, family, colleagues, students and many others who knew him, whether in person or simply from his work, by correspondence, or just by reputation, it seems incredible that one so vigorous and audacious, so lively, warm and funny, who seemed for so long to defy age and mortality, should suddenly have vanished. Burt's most lasting monument must of course be his life work, his professional contributions to the continuing development of the social and economic history of India, particularly that of the south, where he did much to stir up debate and enliven countless meetings, conferences and the less formal occasions that took place in pubs and parties. His professional involvement, despite his notional 'retirement', continued almost to his death; he leaves a history of all of India that was approaching completion when his illness forced him to desist. And though his interests and publications were diverse, perhaps the theme that ran most clearly through it all was that of 'community', which he defined, not in the narrow nationalist, class or sectarian sense by which the universal human desire for belonging has been so twisted and perverted, but as a locality where many different kinds of individuals and groups necessarily find common interest in the environment that affects them all. Burt always felt strongly that he 'was a part of that involuntary, palpitating life', and could not be content only to observe and analyse the past from an almost paradisiacal niche in Hawaii. Among the reasons for his decision to relocate in London had been the possibility of participating in community life in a way that no longer seemed possible in his native country. Settling in the Waterloo area of London, within a short walking distance of outlets for three engrossing passions - the India Office Library, the South Bank Centre for the performing arts, and County Hall, the headquarters of local government -- he plunged into local issues with his usual enthusiasm. Over the course of time, he acquired an expertise in the social welfare system that he used for a decade as a volunteer advice worker. For several years he headed the area's community planning group, whose hard work he saw successfully influence the outcome of a number of public inquiries - often as not to be overturned by the political considerations of central government. With dismay, he watched the mounting attacks on local government, housing, transportation and education, most of them on the hollow pretext of 'efficiency' or 'choice'. The one institution that always seemed to embody the ideals of quality and equality, to continue to be valued and hence somehow to function under the unremitting onslaughts of cuts in funding was the National Health Service, of which he was to be a grateful beneficiary both in life and death, although for so long he seemed no more in need of a doctor than of a toupee. In 1990 he suffered a heart attack and received prompt, sensitive and expert care which would have cost tens of thousands of dollars in the United States -only a fraction of which might have been covered by insurance - and which restored him to even more vigorous health and activity than before. Six years later, during his final illness, he received care and treatment that would have cost hundreds of thousands. There was no imaginable remedy or service that was not lavished on him without stint, despite the hopelessness of his condition and swingeing cuts which, in the name of efficiency, had created desperate shortages of the most basic medical necessities. Although there was, miraculously, always a bed for him when he needed it, simply to change a dressing took several times as long for staff to round up the required bandages and ointments - inefficiency in the name of efficiency. Yet the overworked, underpaid, hard pressed and hard stressed nursing staff continued to pay devoted attention, not only to every need but to every wish - even including writing out postcards to his friends at his dictation when he was no longer able to do so. Devising an appropriate commemoration for Burt is not an easy task. His colleagues may meet together and discuss the issues and subjects that interested him and to which he contributed. But how can the causes and institutions that he touched and was touched by be in some way recognized, not just with thanks, but with attention to the perils that hang over them, and without papering over and helping to conceal the damage already inflicted? And how can this be done while preserving and making visible the interconnections between the disparate parts of his life and interests? After considerable thought and consultation with both local activists and professionals, I have determined to establish a memorial fund to be dedicated to the amelioration of the working conditions of the nurses of St Thomas' Hospital, who cared and continue to care not only for Burt but equally for all their patients, and to do this in the first instance by furnishing and equipping a room for them to take whatever short respites, meals and refreshments their twelve-hour shifts may occasionally but unpredictably permit. Other possibilities may in due course present themselves. To this end, the advances on the royalties of Burt's final book will be dedicated, so that both he and his colleagues and friends who have generously given their time, efforts and knowledge toward its completion will have contributed and added their thanks to my own. In addition, by circulating this notice, not only within the locality and country that was his final home, but among his friends and acquaintances in Asian Studies all over the world, I hope to help publicize the often- denied truth about what an institution devoted to the well-being of all without distinction can mean and be for every kind of community, no matter where located. If you wish to aid the Burton Stein memorial fund, please send your contribution and/or suggestions and comments, to me: Dorothy Stein 37 Pearman Street London SE1 7RB, UK. =========================================================================== From magier at columbia.edu Sat Sep 21 13:18:18 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 09:18:18 -0400 Subject: Int'l Directory of Scholars Message-ID: <161227026107.23782.8001018206286587720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Because there are so many new members of the Indology list, I am reposting this notice. Apologies if you've seen this before. David Magier) Dear South Asia scholars, I am writing to inform you about The International Directory of South Asia Scholars, and to invite you to join the many hundreds of your colleagues from around the world who have detailed listings in this free global database of scholars. For your information, I append below a description of the Directory, including a blank form you can use, if you wish, to submit your own entry to be included in the Directory (which you can send back to me by email - magier at columbia.edu). Please let me know if you have any questions or comments or suggestions about the Directory, or about The South Asia Gopher, through which it is made accesssible over the internet (and through the world wide web). Thank you. David Magier magier at columbia.edu ===================================================================== THE INTERNATIONAL DIRECTORY of SOUTH ASIA SCHOLARS The International Directory of South Asia Scholars is a free, publicly available online database of South Asianists from around the world. This service is being provided by Columbia University through The South Asia Gopher, and is compiled and maintained by Dr. David Magier. The database contains records of individuals who have identified themselves as being involved in South Asian studies. Each record, submitted by the person listed, contains the name, title, affiliation, contact information (generally mail address, phones, FAX, and full email address), and a short statement of the person's activities, teaching and/or research interests, specializations, etc. in the area of South Asian Studies. The entries are free-form text, and one may include any information in any format that seems useful and informative. The database is indexed so that anyone can do a search to locate the record for a particular individual, or one can do a keyword search to find, for example, a list of all the South Asianists located in a given country or city, or all the scholars who are working on a given language or subject or region, etc. For example, a keyword search using the terms "Prakrit" or "Punjabi" will retrieve a listing of all the scholars whose entries contain these words. It is very easy to have your entry included in this database, so that your colleagues from around the world will know who you are and what you are working on and interested in. Experience shows that this type of tool is very helpful in developing new human networks and cooperative research and teaching ventures, getting answers to particular factual queries, and fostering the 'cross-fertilization' of ideas. We would like to invite you to submit an entry so that our database will be as comprehensive and useful as possible. To submit an entry for yourself (or for someone else), please fill out the form below and return it BY EMAIL to magier at columbia.edu or by post to: Dr. David Magier South Asia Librarian 304 International Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Street New York, N.Y. 10027 212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-3834 Your description of your work and research or teaching interests should contain as much information as possible to allow people to identify you and your work, and to 'find' you through typical keyword searches (languages, countries or regions, fields and sub-disciplines, ethnic or political groups, etc.). Please feel free to contact Dr. Magier if you have questions about the Directory or need advice on the best way to construct your entry. -------------ENTRY FORM-------CUT HERE------------------------------ Name _______________________________________________________________ Title_______________________________________________________________ Institutional Affiliation___________________________________________ Mailing Address_____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Phones______________________________________________________________ FAX ________________________________________________________________ full email address__________________________________________________ DESCRIPTION OF YOUR WORK (include your research/teaching interests, and all relevant keywords such as languages, countries, regions, disciplines and sub-disciplines, ethnic, religious or political goupings, historical periods, etc. Keep in mind that others will use 'keyword searches' to find your listing if they don't know you by name). ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ return this info by email to: magier at columbia.edu or by post to: David Magier, South Asia Librarian 304 International Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Street New York, N.Y. 10027 USA 212-854-8046 FAX: 212-854-3834 From Hrid at aol.com Sat Sep 21 19:23:24 1996 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 15:23:24 -0400 Subject: Ramanuja and Gaudapada Karika I.16. Message-ID: <161227026112.23782.10102341183499467486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank S. Vidyasankar for his learned and most helpful discussion of Ramanuja's quotation of Gaudapada. Howard Resnick From kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu Sun Sep 22 16:15:48 1996 From: kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu (Kerry Martin Skora) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 12:15:48 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit-Chinese Message-ID: <161227026113.23782.1947332104908521983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Zeller and Others who might be interested: After sending out several e-mail inquiries, I still don't know if the handbook is available for others and I still don't have an address of a place where you might purchase the dictionary. If you'll send me your e-mail number directly to kms5f at virginia.edu, I'll contact you directly when I know more. Kerry Martin Skora Dept. of Religious Studies University of Virginia kms5f at virginia.edu According to Gabriele Zeller: > > > Hello all of you, > again two interesting books are mentioned, which I would like to have > in our library. Does anybody know details about that "Handbook for > Tibetan Studies at the University of Virginia" - is it available > somehow or only for internal use? Who are the authors/editors? - > And the Tibetan book, was it published in India, or where? > > > The "Sam Bod rGya gSum Shan sByar Gi Tshig mDzod [rNam rGyal > > Tshe Ring; published by Mi Rigs dPe sKrun Khang, 1991] "gives > > Sanskrit in Tibetan tranliteration with the Tibetan and Chinese > > equivalents." [This is according to "Handbook for Tibetan > > Studies at the University of Virginia. I have not seen this > > myself.] I hope that's helpful. Kerry Martin Skora/Dept. of > > Religious Studies/University of Virginia/kms5f at virginia.edu > > > Thanks > Gabriele Zeller > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Gabriele Zeller > Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen > Wilhelmstr. 32 > 72016 Tuebingen > Tel:+49-7071-2974030 > Fax:+49-7071-293123 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > From conlon at u.washington.edu Mon Sep 23 18:41:17 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 11:41:17 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Kenneth W. Jones Message-ID: <161227026117.23782.7700927851844849084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I forward herewith a post which just went to H-ASIA. H-ASIA September 23, 1996 Professor Kenneth W. Jones *************************************************************************** From: Frank Conlon It is my sad duty to report that Professor Kenneth W. Jones, a member of the Kansas State University history faculty for many years, and renowned specialist on the history of the Arya Samaj and of religious movements of the Punjab and India generally, died yesterday afternoon in Manhattan, Kansas. I have received no further details at this time, and propose to post further information and an obituary in the near future. No immediate plans have been announced, but a memorial service is likely to be held in Manhattan next month. Ken, who had survived a brain tumor a few years ago, had been suffering from cancer and the complications of its treatment. We have lost a dedicated scholar and teacher and good friend. Frank Conlon Co-editor of H-ASIA University of Washington =========================================================================== From mudra at inch.com Mon Sep 23 17:55:27 1996 From: mudra at inch.com (mudra at inch.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 13:55:27 -0400 Subject: When is Sant Dynaneshwar's anniversary Message-ID: <161227026115.23782.16767459088809502510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello members, I would appreciate any information on Sant Dynaneshwar's 700th anniversary celebrations in Alandi. Or at least the date which marks the anniversary. Sincerely, Venantius Pinto From ARB at maestro.com Tue Sep 24 20:01:50 1996 From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 16:01:50 -0400 Subject: Rare books on South Asia available Message-ID: <161227026118.23782.7741654554808861016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please note that Richard F. Burton: Sind Revisited(London 1877 First Ed.) 2 vols. and others are in the current booklist of Asian Rare Books now on line at http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/ see booklist # 9 at our website for the Burton From magier at columbia.edu Tue Sep 24 20:30:39 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 16:30:39 -0400 Subject: Post-Doc Fellowship Offer Message-ID: <161227026120.23782.9713837706917489045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following announcement of Post-Doctoral Fellowship opportunity is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the South Asia Gopher. Apologies for any cross-posting. Please contact the granting agency directly, at the address listed in the announcement, for any further information. Thank you. David Magier -------------------------------------------------------------------- 1997-98 Hinduja Fellow Post-doctoral Fellowship Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center Columbia University The Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center at Columbia University invites applications for a one-year post-doctoral fellowship for the 1997-98 academic year. The Hinduja Center supports research that promotes a deeper understanding of Indic civilizations and their contributions to our modern world. It is particularly interested in funding projects that bring insights from Indic traditions to bear upon contemporary problems, especially those related to health, science, gender, conflict, ethics, education, the environment, and interreligious understanding. For the 1997-98 fellowship, priority will be given to applicants pursuing research related to one of our five working groups whose respective foci are as follows: healthcare, exact sciences, gender, conflict management, and authority and its interpretation in Indic traditions; applications related to other topics relevant to the Center's objectives are also welcome. The stipend will be $30,000 plus full fringe benefits; additional research funds will be made available. The Hinduja Fellow will be expected to teach one course and to be an active member of Columbia University's Society of Fellows in the Humanities. Eligibility requirement: Doctoral degree must have been received after January 1, 1991. The application deadline is Monday, December 2, 1996. For application materials and further information, contact: Nancy E. Braxton, Coordinator Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center Columbia University 1102 International Affairs Building, MC 3367 420 W. 118th Street New York, NY 10027 USA Tel: 212-854- 5300 Fax: 212-854-2802 dhirc at columbia.edu From phijag at zelacom.com Tue Sep 24 21:37:30 1996 From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 17:37:30 -0400 Subject: When is Sant Dynaneshwar's anniversary Message-ID: <161227026122.23782.16598013681505871403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello members, >I would appreciate any information on Sant Dynaneshwar's 700th anniversary >celebrations in Alandi. Or at least the date which marks the anniversary. >Sincerely, >Venantius Pinto > The Jnanesvar Conference, held in Pune, is from November 24-30, 1996 His Mahasamadhi celebration in Alandi is on December 5th. John From turstig at juno.com Wed Sep 25 04:30:19 1996 From: turstig at juno.com (turstig at juno.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 20:30:19 -0800 Subject: When is Sant Dynaneshwar's anniversary Message-ID: <161227026123.23782.5047558349762352296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:56:52 BST mudra at inch.com (mailhost.inch.com) writes: >Hello members, > >I would appreciate any information on Sant Dynaneshwar's 700th >anniversary >celebrations in Alandi. Or at least the date which marks the >anniversary. > >Sincerely, > >Venantius Pinto > It is the 8th of December. There is a conference in Poona, "World Philosophers Meet", 23-30 Nov. which focuses on the 700th anniversary of Jnaneshvar's Samadhi. Contact Dr. S.S. Barlingay or Prof. Vishwanath D. Karad in Poona. Tel # (+91) 212 351222 or 331795 Fax # (+91) 212 342770 Email: (it looks strange, but I tried it and it worked) S=MITPUNE%S=MITPUNE%G=MAEERPUNE%P=VSNBOM%VSNB at mcimail.com Hans-Georg Tuerstig 100734.2313 at compuserve.com From Suresh-Kamath at msn.com Wed Sep 25 00:57:06 1996 From: Suresh-Kamath at msn.com (Suresh Kamath) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 00:57:06 +0000 Subject: Int'l Directory of Scholars Message-ID: <161227026144.23782.5541816051986685796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here it is! ---------- From: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk on behalf of David Magier Sent: Saturday, September 21, 1996 12:20 PM To: Members of the list Subject: Int'l Directory of Scholars (Because there are so many new members of the Indology list, I am reposting this notice. Apologies if you've seen this before. David Magier) Dear South Asia scholars, I am writing to inform you about The International Directory of South Asia Scholars, and to invite you to join the many hundreds of your colleagues from around the world who have detailed listings in this free global database of scholars. For your information, I append below a description of the Directory, including a blank form you can use, if you wish, to submit your own entry to be included in the Directory (which you can send back to me by email - magier at columbia.edu). Please let me know if you have any questions or comments or suggestions about the Directory, or about The South Asia Gopher, through which it is made accesssible over the internet (and through the world wide web). Thank you. David Magier magier at columbia.edu ===================================================================== THE INTERNATIONAL DIRECTORY of SOUTH ASIA SCHOLARS The International Directory of South Asia Scholars is a free, publicly available online database of South Asianists from around the world. This service is being provided by Columbia University through The South Asia Gopher, and is compiled and maintained by Dr. David Magier. The database contains records of individuals who have identified themselves as being involved in South Asian studies. Each record, submitted by the person listed, contains the name, title, affiliation, contact information (generally mail address, phones, FAX, and full email address), and a short statement of the person's activities, teaching and/or research interests, specializations, etc. in the area of South Asian Studies. The entries are free-form text, and one may include any information in any format that seems useful and informative. The database is indexed so that anyone can do a search to locate the record for a particular individual, or one can do a keyword search to find, for example, a list of all the South Asianists located in a given country or city, or all the scholars who are working on a given language or subject or region, etc. For example, a keyword search using the terms "Prakrit" or "Punjabi" will retrieve a listing of all the scholars whose entries contain these words. It is very easy to have your entry included in this database, so that your colleagues from around the world will know who you are and what you are working on and interested in. Experience shows that this type of tool is very helpful in developing new human networks and cooperative research and teaching ventures, getting answers to particular factual queries, and fostering the 'cross-fertilization' of ideas. We would like to invite you to submit an entry so that our database will be as comprehensive and useful as possible. To submit an entry for yourself (or for someone else), please fill out the form below and return it BY EMAIL to magier at columbia.edu or by post to: Dr. David Magier South Asia Librarian 304 International Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Street New York, N.Y. 10027 212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-3834 Your description of your work and research or teaching interests should contain as much information as possible to allow people to identify you and your work, and to 'find' you through typical keyword searches (languages, countries or regions, fields and sub-disciplines, ethnic or political groups, etc.). Please feel free to contact Dr. Magier if you have questions about the Directory or need advice on the best way to construct your entry. -------------ENTRY FORM-------CUT HERE------------------------------ Name ____SureshG.KamathMD__________________________________________________________ _ Title_______________________________________________________________ Institutional Affiliation___________________________________________ Mailing Address___48BetwoodStreet__________________________________________________ __________Albany,NY,12209_____________________________________________________ _____ ____________________________________________________________________ Phones__(518)274-0657_________________________________________________________ ___ FAX ________________________________________________________________ full email address ______________________________________________ Suresh-Kamath at msn.com DESCRIPTION OF YOUR WORK (include your research/teaching interests, and all relevant keywords such as languages, countries, regions, disciplines and sub-disciplines, ethnic, religious or political goupings, historical periods, etc. Keep in mind that others will use 'keyword searches' to find your listing if they don't know you by name). Indus Valley Civilization Sarasvati Civilization Konkani Gauda Saraswat Brahmin ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ return this info by email to: magier at columbia.edu or by post to: David Magier, South Asia Librarian 304 International Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Street New York, N.Y. 10027 USA 212-854-8046 FAX: 212-854-3834 From magier at columbia.edu Wed Sep 25 12:53:39 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 08:53:39 -0400 Subject: Old Indologists reply to Preciado-Solis Message-ID: <161227026128.23782.2027015739929448620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Karttunen: When will WHO WAS WHO IN WESTERN INDOLOGY be published? I hope soon, as this seems an invaluable reference work. David Magier, Phd South Asia Librarian Columbia University From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Wed Sep 25 14:07:02 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (KJKARTTU) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 14:07:02 +0000 Subject: Old Indologists reply to Preciado-Solis Message-ID: <161227026125.23782.8561680827239963688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Old Indologists, reply to Preciado-Solis For various reasons I have just now joined the Indology list, but by kindness of colleagues I have seen Preciado-Solis's question about Stael-Holstein and Venis with notes by O. Freiberger and G. Zeller (1 August). Freiberger referred to my collection and here follows, what I have found out about these two scholars. If someone knows the date of birth for Venis, I would be very thankful. To avoid complications with e-mail I have eliminated diacritics. I hope this answer will reach Preciado-Solis. Extracted from the MS. of: K. Karttunen: WHO WAS WHO IN WESTERN INDOLOGY. Including South Asian, Iranian, and Tibetan Studies. A Biographical Dictionary STAL-HOLSTEIN, Alexander Wilhelm, Baron von (Aleksandr fon Stal'-Gol'stejn). Livonia, in the now Tostamaa in SW Estonia 20.12.1876/1.1.1877 - Peking 16.3. 1937. Russian (German of Estonia) Indologist and Buddhist Scholar, after the revolution in China. Professor in Peking. Born in a family of Livonian German nobility AvSH was educated at Kollmann Gymnasium in Tartu and in 1894-96 studied classical philology and Sanskrit (under Leo Meyer) at Dorpat (Tartu) University. Further studies at Berlin (Weber) and Halle. Ph.D. 1900 Halle. Back at home he entered Russian foreign service and in 1903-04 visited India. From 1911 Docent at St. Petersburg, in 1913 degree at Oriental Faculty there. In 1915 he was sent to Tokyo by Russian Imperial Academy and in 1916 he was nominated the Professor of Sanskrit and Tibetan at Peking High School. From 1929 full Professor of Central Asian Philology and Director of the Harvard Sino-Indian Institute in Peking. 193? member of Chinese Academy. In the 1930s visited Europe including his native Estonia. In 1929 married in Peking with Olga von Grave, also a member of Baltic German nobility, had one son and one daughter. AvSH was a notable Buddhist scholar, best known of his work on the Kasyapaparivarta, edited from a Central Asian MS. in St.Petersburg. After his dissertation, a continuation of the edition, begun by Schrader, of a Parisista to the Gobhiliyagrhyasutra, he turned completely to Central Asian studies. In addition to Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese, he was interested in Central Asian fragments in Turkic and Tocharian. In Peking he was the rst foreigner, who was allowed to visit and study the Forbidden Town. As a nobleman he is said to have been imperious nature and often difcult to his subordinates. Publications: diss. Karmapradipa. Prapathaka 2. 63 p. Halle 1900. - edited with W. Radloff: Tisastvustik. Ein in turkischer Sprache bearbeitetes buddhistisches Sutra. 1. Transcription und Ubersetzung von W._R. 2. Bemerkungen zu den Brahmiglossen des Tisastvustik-Manuscripts von A. v. St.-H. 8+143 p. Bibl. Buddh. 12. St.P. 1910. - edited: Kien-Ch'ui-Fan-Tsan (Gandistotragatha). 29+289 p. Bibl. Buddh. 15. St.P. 1913 (from Chinese transcription). - edited: The Kasyapaparivarta. A Mahayanasutra of the Ratnakuta Class. 26+234 p. Shanghai 1926 (in Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese); Sthiramati's commentary on the same. 1933. - articles in Mel. as., HJAS, etc. Sources: Deutsch-Baltisches Biographisches Lexicon 1710-1960; *S. Elisseeff, HJAS 3, 1938, 1-8; *E. Schierlitz, Monum. Serica 3:1, 1938, 286-291; Mart Laanemets, Homeland (Kodumaa) April 8, 1987 (n.b. those marked by * I have not yet seen or checked). VENIS, Arthur. 18?? - 5.6.1918. British (Scots) Educator and Indologist in India. Professor in Benares and Allahabad. After studies at Edinburgh and Oxford (M.A., Balliol College) he joined Indian Educational Service in 1881 and became Professor of English Literature at Queen's College in Varanasi. From 1888 Professor of Philosophy and Principal of Sanskrit College in Varanasi, from 1897 Principal of Queen's College ibid. In 1914-18 Professor of Post-Vedic Sanskrit at University of Allahabad. D.Litt. C.I.E. AV was a specialist of Indian philosophy, especially of Vedanta. The main part of his work consists of text editions. Publications: edited and translated: Dharmaraja's Vedantaparibhasa, Pandit N.S. 4-7, 1882-85; Vidyaranya Madhava's Pancadasi, Pandit 5-8, 1883-86; Prakasananda's Vedantasiddhanta-muktavali, Pandit 11-12, 1889-90. - edited with commentary: Udayana's Laksanavali, Pandit 21-22, 1899-1900; Varadaraja's Tarkikaraksa, Pandit 21-25, 1899-1903 (as book 1906). - translated: Appayya Diksita's Siddhantalesasamgraha, Pandit 21-25, 1899-1903 (incomplete); Padmapada's Pancapadika, Pandit 23, 1901 & 25, 1903. Sources: Who Was Who 1916-1928. Klaus Karttunen From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Wed Sep 25 14:11:05 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (KJKARTTU) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 14:11:05 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology Message-ID: <161227026126.23782.5551834634111473409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Sanskrit in scientific terminology, reply to P. Kiparsky For various reasons I have only just joined the Indology list, but by kindness of colleagues I have obtained Kiparsky's question of 12th September and Wyzlic's notes of 13th September have reached me. I hope this answer will also reach Kiparsky. Bollensen had moved to Kazan in 1852 and to Germany in 1858. Petrov taught in Moscow. Minaev (1840-90) was still student in Germany and started his teaching in St. Petersburg only in 1869. As was noted by Wyzlic, Boehtlingk never lectured and Roth did not even live in Russia. The man in charge of Sanskrit at the Oriental Faculty of St. Petersburg University was Kaetan Andreevich Kossovich (1815-1883), known of an unfinished Sanskrit-Russian dictionary (1854-56), of an edition of Old Persian cuneiform inscriptions (1872), of several Avestic studies and translations of Indian classics into Russian (parts of the Mbh and some dramas). He started his Sanskrit teaching at the Oriental Faculty in 1858, became Professor in 1860, with chair in 1866. As far as I know he was the only teacher of Sanskrit in St.Petersburg in the 1860s. More about him can be found in JRAS 1883, p. xxiii-xxiv, in Biogr. slovar' S.-Peterb. univ. 1, 1896, 346-354 and in Bongard-Levin & Vigasin, The Image of India, Moscow 1984, 71-73. Further sources (not checked by me) are M._O. Marks in Russk. Star. 52, 1886, 605-620; I._B. in Zhurnal Min. Narodn. Prosv. 1883 March 226, 35-42, and A._Ja. Garkavi in Izv. Imp. Arh. Obshch. 10, 433-487. P.S. After writing this I saw a message with suggestion that Sanskrit terms in question may have been learnt abroad. This is of course quite possible, too. Klaus Karttunen From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Sep 26 00:04:42 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 20:04:42 -0400 Subject: Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar Message-ID: <161227026130.23782.864465186326118142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members, I am pleased to announce the Program of the following Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar. You are all welcome to attend. All the best, Madhav Deshpande Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology 25-27 October, 1996 (All Sessions) Hussey Room, Michigan League (2nd Floor) The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan Organized by: Professor Johannes Bronkhorst (Lausanne) Professor Madhav M. Deshpande (Michigan) Professor Thomas R. Trautmann (Michigan) Oct 25, Friday, Morning Session 8:30 - 9:00 Registration 9:00 - 9:15 Welcome (Deshpande / Bronkhorst) Chair : Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne, Lausanne) 9:15 - 10:00 Thomas Trautmann (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "Constructing the Racial Theory of Indian Civilization" 10:00 - 10:45 Hans H. Hock (University of Illinois, Urbana) "Through a glass darkly: Modern Colonialist Attitudes vs. Textual and General Prehistoric Evidence on 'Race' and 'Caste' in Vedic Indo-Aryan Society" 10:45 - 11:00 Coffee Break 11:00 - 11:45 Nicholas Allen (Oxford University, U.K.) "Hinduism as an Indo-European Ideology: Cultural Comparativism and Political Sensitivities" 11:45 - 12:15 Open Discussion Lunch 12:15 - 2:00 October 25, Friday, Afternoon Session Chair : Michael Witzel (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA) 2:00 - 2:45 Asko Parpola (University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland) "Sanskrit kimpuru.sa and kinnara : An Early Mixture of Aryan and Dravidian" 2:45 - 3:30 Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne, Lausanne, Switzerland) "Is there an Inner Conflict of Tradition?" 3:30 - 3:45 Coffee Break 3:45 - 4:30 Gernot Windfuhr (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "A Note on Airyaman and Friendship" 4:30 - 5:00 Open Discussion 5:30 - 6:30 Special Lecture (Buddhist Studies) by Professor Shoryu Katsura (Hiroshima University) "Naagaarjuna's Logic" Dinner ************************* October 26, Saturday, Morning Session Chair : Carla Sinopoli (University of Michigan) 9:00 - 9:45 Shereen Ratnagar (Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi) "Does archaeology hold the answers?" 9:45 - 10:30 Jim Shaffer (Case Western University, Cleveland) "Orientalism and cultural continuity in South Asian archaeology" 10:30 - 10:45 Coffee Break 10 :45 - 11:30 Michael Witzel (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA) "The Linguistic Situation in Northern India during the Vedic Period" 11:30 - 12:00 Open Discussion Lunch October 26, Saturday, Afternoon Session Chair : Walter Spink (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) 2:00 - 2:45 Pashaura Singh (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "Revisiting the Arya-Samaj Movement" 2:45 - 3:30 Sarah Caldwell (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "Whose Goddess? Kaalii as Cultural champion in Kerala oral narratives" 3:30 - 3:45 Coffee Break 3:45 - 4:30 Luis Gomez (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "Chinese Buddhist Understanding of 'Arya'" 4:30 - 5:15 Madhav M. Deshpande (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "What to do with the Anaaryas? Dharmic discourses of inclusion and exclusion" 5:15 - 5:45 Open Discussion Dinner ************************* October 27, Sunday, Morning Session Chair : Peter Hook (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) 9:00 - 9:45 Franklin C. Southworth (University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia) "Dravidian Place-Names in Maharashtra" 9:45 - 10:30 Edwin Bryant (Columbia University, New York) "Linguistic Substrata and the Indo-Aryan Migration Debate" 10:30 - 10:45 Coffee Break 10:45 - 11:30 Jayakumar Manickam (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "The situation of Urdu speakers in the Tamil area" 11:30 - 12:00 Open Discussion 12:00 - 12:15 Concluding Business Matters From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Thu Sep 26 11:59:37 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 07:59:37 -0400 Subject: New fax number / email address Message-ID: <161227026136.23782.17640276095492091579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Boris Oguibenine wrote: > On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 03:03:16 BST, Mittal Sushil wrote: > > >Does anyone have the email address and new fax number of the Indian > >Council of Social Science Research, New Delhi? > > > >Thanks in advance. > > > >sushil mittal > >iiis/whp > > > try: dorin at csh.delnet.ernet.in > > Greetings, B.O. > Greetings back from St-Hyacinthe, and thanks. There email nos. are: (1) postmast at nassdoc.delnet.ernet.in (2) nassdoc at delnet.ren.in. Cordially, sushil From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu Sep 26 16:26:53 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 09:26:53 -0700 Subject: Covering Message Message-ID: <161227026141.23782.2490300419896348358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sreenivas: May I request that you not send encoded files to this list? Many of us have no means for unencoding files and it is simply a waste of bandwidth and inbox capacity to receive such files. Thank you. Frank Conlon University of Washington Co-editor of H-ASIA From jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 26 18:50:31 1996 From: jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu (jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:50:31 -0800 Subject: address, etc., request Message-ID: <161227026143.23782.10308026371426349842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone post the address, phone number and/or e-mail for the Institute of Asian studies in Madras? Thank you very much Jey From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr Thu Sep 26 16:23:48 1996 From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 11:23:48 -0500 Subject: bhagavadgita in Russian Message-ID: <161227026132.23782.10140836356138780278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:08:51 BST, Hans G. Tuerstig wrote: >Does anyone know whether there exists a translation of the Bhagavadgita >into Russian? >Thanks. >Hans-Georg Tuerstig What is the use of a Russian translation you think of? I read the Smirnov translation long ago and find it rather plain. Regards, Boris Oguibenine From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr Thu Sep 26 17:32:16 1996 From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: New fax number / email address Message-ID: <161227026134.23782.15236343652094637576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 03:03:16 BST, Mittal Sushil wrote: > > >Does anyone have the email address and new fax number of the Indian >Council of Social Science Research, New Delhi? > >Thanks in advance. > >sushil mittal >iiis/whp try: dorin at csh.delnet.ernet.in Greetings, B.O. From sreeniva at saw.ch Thu Sep 26 15:37:02 1996 From: sreeniva at saw.ch (Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 17:37:02 +0200 Subject: Covering Message Message-ID: <161227026137.23782.18224852997652125986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Receiver, I am sending alongwith this message, a uuencoded file as a separate mail. I have recently written an article, the motivation for which comes from various sources (discussions, events, etc.). It is a sort of an abridged version. In order to retrieve the file you will have to Download --> UUDECODE --> MS-WORD (BLEED.DOC) I hope that you will not face any problems at retrieving this file. --> I have keen interest in Indologa and Sanskritic studies. This article may look amateurish, but I am formalizing the study that I have done (informally!) on various specific topics. I would be keen to receive your comments on my article. I earnestly hope that you would not mind receiving such mails. Thanks & Regards, Sreenivasa Nittala ---------------------------------------------------------------- Address valid till October 31, 1996 : ************************************* Off. : Res. : ====== ====== Softadweis AG Zimmer# 406 (SISL Core Team) Hotel Ernesto Laufengasse 18 Zentralstrasse 60 CH-8212 CH-8212 Neuhausen am Rheinfall Neuhausen am Rheinfall Switzerland. Switzerland. Tel : +41 52 6741118 Email : sreeniva at saw.ch ---------------------------------------------------------------- Address valid beyond October 31, 1996 : ************************************* Siemens Information Systems Ltd. B-9, Flat# 6392 B-8, Jungpura B, Mathura Road Vasant Kunj New Delhi 110 014 New Delhi 110 070 India. India. Tel : +91 11 463 1245/2379/2389 Fax : +91 11 462 5674 Email : sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de ---------------------------------------------------------------- From sreeniva at saw.ch Thu Sep 26 15:37:55 1996 From: sreeniva at saw.ch (Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 17:37:55 +0200 Subject: bleed.uue Message-ID: <161227026139.23782.17872465696449758976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> begin 644 BLEED.DOC MT,\1X*&Q&N$ /@ # /[_"0 & ! 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at 0G5T(&%N(&AO;F5S="!A M;F0 at 82!C87)E9G5L(&=L86YC92!A\$P, ! @/Z ,^ET#40320 $ " M_X 1ZE at -6!, 0 ( @1'I" YL$P, ! @ &! .DZ M#A at 2 T " " H$1$"PZ__\# 0 ( #@2+P+!TD%1D M % $ @ 6!$/JR(M 3 0 $ " !H$1\$(Y-!0& 0 M ( '@1#PL!OD$P, ! @ B! .IJ'O at 3 $ " M"8$1^I >#!0& 0 M M M M M M /__0W5S=&]M('!A9V4@,0 M 6$, +1# M 0W5S=&]M('!A9V4@,@ M 6$, +1# 0W5S=&]M M('!A9V4@,P M 6$, +1# !@ $ '0P !T, M ' " ( =# !T, ": ( !> @ U at H -P* =# M?A$ '\1 "C$0 KA$ ,01 #%$0 \!, /03 #\$P A0 (D4 "* M% [!0 .T4 "$&P WAL /$; #X&P _1L /\; 6'0 &AT "L= M R'0 AQT +D= #&'0 QQT !H> ?'@ .QX $X> !/'@ 5AX M %D> "B'P NA\ ,0? ;( '" "8@ G( +R # @ Q( M,B #,@ ! # $7P4 03_* !!-X- $( \ M 0R* !!(,4 $$,R@ 02G% !!#XH $$ MOQ0 00-*0 !!.H6 $$$2D 3R%@ !!$$H M $$>A< 007*0 !-P7 $$1"@ 02>* !!!@I M $$L2@ 02V* !!)0> $$NB@ 02W'P ! M!+XH $$T!\ 00F( !!, Dear Receiver, I am working on some topics in the following area : "ZERO : Its origin and place in Indian Thought" I am looking for a good bibliography. I would appreciate if you could provide me a selected list of recommended books/papers. I have already acquired a few books/papers. So, in case you are interested, I can provide my list . Thanks & Regards, Sreenivasa (Nittala Sreenivasa SUbramanya Sharma) ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------- Address valid till October 31, 1996 : ************************************* Off. : Res. : ====== ====== Softadweis AG Zimmer# 406 (SISL Core Team) Hotel Ernesto Laufengasse 18 Zentralstrasse 60 CH-8212 CH-8212 Neuhausen am Rheinfall Neuhausen am Rheinfall Switzerland. Switzerland. Tel : +41 52 6741118 Email : sreeniva at saw.ch ---------------------------------------------------------------- Address valid beyond October 31, 1996 : ************************************* Siemens Information Systems Ltd. B-9, Flat# 6392 B-8, Jungpura B, Mathura Road Vasant Kunj New Delhi 110 014 New Delhi 110 070 India. India. Tel : +91 11 463 1245/2379/2389 Fax : +91 11 462 5674 Email : sreenivasa.nittala at blr.sni.de ---------------------------------------------------------------- From d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Fri Sep 27 13:40:33 1996 From: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Thomas Lehmann) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 15:40:33 +0200 Subject: address, etc., request Message-ID: <161227026148.23782.3263488020596688523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Jeyanthy Siva wrote: > Can someone post the address, phone number and/or e-mail for > the Institute of Asian studies in Madras? > Institute of Asian Studies, Chemmancherry, Sholinganallur (P.O.) Madras 600 119 India no e-mail sofar _____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Lehmann, e-mail: d53 at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 27 15:11:50 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 16:11:50 +0100 Subject: Vikram Seth - some problems Message-ID: <161227026151.23782.15361352865190447806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Jan Dvorak wrote: > 3. order papers (p. 254 - middle of the chapter 5.7): in a Parliament: > "Several members of the House were on their feet, waving their order papers, > and no one, not even the Speaker, could be clearly heard." "paper showing order of deliberative business" -- Chambers 20th Cent. Dict. These are what members of parliament have when attending a debate in the House, like meeting agendas, to show who has the Speaker's permission to speak, etc. Best wishes, Dominik From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Fri Sep 27 14:38:15 1996 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 16:38:15 +0200 Subject: Vikram Seth - some problems Message-ID: <161227026149.23782.7145655717382987859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting a few more problems we've encountered while translating Vikram Seth's A Suitable Boy (Phoenix House, London 1993): 1. kuchuk (p. 9 - last sentence of chapter 1.3): Lata answers to her brother's daughter "Yes, kuchuk, of course, I'm sorry. [...] Come, let's all go together and get some." 2. Maloos (p. 431 - one of the last paragraphs of the chapter 7.23): Meenakshi answers to her mother-in-law: "Of course I can, Maloos dear, don't be so old-fashioned." 3. order papers (p. 254 - middle of the chapter 5.7): in a Parliament: "Several members of the House were on their feet, waving their order papers, and no one, not even the Speaker, could be clearly heard." In the first two cases I ask for both meaning and the original writing in Hindi (Bengali) - use any transcription you want but specify which one it is. In the second case we are not sure what the "order papers" are. Any suggestions? Thank you, Jan Dvorak From magier at columbia.edu Fri Sep 27 20:54:51 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 16:54:51 -0400 Subject: EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT: Bangladesh Conference Message-ID: <161227026153.23782.1062432242863150314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of The South Asia Gopher. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. Thank you. David Magier ============================================================== International Conference on BANGLADESH AT 25 December 5-7, 1996 Southern Asian Institute School of International & Public Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Steet New York, NY for further information: Laura Evans 212-854-3616 le33 at columbia.edu TENTATIVE AGENDA DAY 1 December 5, 1996 9:30-10:30 Inaguration: Welcome Introduction 11:00-12:30 Session 1: Nationalist Movement and Identity Politics Salahuddin Ahmad, Dhaka University Anisuzzaman, Dhaka University 2:00-3:30 Session 2: National Identity: Construction and Contestation Willem Van Schendel, Amsterdam Univ. Habib Khondkar, Singapore Univ. 4:00-5:30 Session 3: Social change Abu Abdullah, BIDS Roushan Jahan, Women for Women Stanley Kochanek, Penn. State Univ. 6:00-7:00 "Keynote Address" 7:00-8:00 Reception DAY 2 December 6, 1996 9:00-10:30 Session 4: Civil Society and Democratic Governance Chair: Rehman Sobhan Paper: S.A. Hashemi, Jahangirnagar Univ. Paper: Harry Blair, Bucknell Univ. Discussant: Gowher Rizvi, Ford Foundation 11:00-12:30 Session 5: Politics and Governance Paper: Hossain Jillur Rahman, BIDS Paper: Zarina Rahman Khan, Dhaka Univ. Discussant: Mahfuz Anam, Daily Star 2:00-3:30 Session 6: Economy Chair: Prof. Nurul Islam, IFPRI Paper: Prof. A.R. Khan, Univ. of CA, Riverside Paper: Prof. Binayak Sen, BIDS Discussant: Mieko Nishimizu, World Bank 4:00-6:00 Session 7: Open: Still being finalized DAY 3 December 7, 1996 9:00-10:30 Plenary 1: Bangladesh at 25: State, Society and Economy (Summary of the conference) Speakers: Nurul Islam, IFPRI Rounaq Jahan, Columbia University 11:00-2:00 Plenary 2: Moving Forward Speakers: A.M.A. Muhith Sara Hossain, Attorney at Law Rehman Sobhan M. Yunus ? Grameen Bank From deepak at ksu.edu Sat Sep 28 23:36:25 1996 From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak Gupta) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 18:36:25 -0500 Subject: Publications Message-ID: <161227026154.23782.17506655398533131772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Everybody, Does anybody know where I can find a list of publications by American Institute of Indian Studies till date? thanks deepak D E E P A K G U P T A Home: 512 thurston Ave. Manhattan KS 66502 Office: S 169 Seaton Hall, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS 66506, Ph.nos. 913 5320659/ 5323777/ 5650274 email: deepak at unix.ksu.edu Internet: http://www.ksu.edu/~deepak ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "REALITY IS THE BEST METAPHOR." Anonymous From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Sun Sep 29 18:02:55 1996 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 11:02:55 -0700 Subject: Vikram Seth - "order papers" Message-ID: <161227026158.23782.14679560878667711846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the British parliamentary system, "order papers" are/were lists of motions to be heard in the House, i.e., the order of business (=agenda). Mandakranta Bose University of British Columbia Vancouver On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Jan Dvorak wrote: > I am posting a few more problems we've encountered while translating Vikram > Seth's A Suitable Boy (Phoenix House, London 1993): > > 1. kuchuk (p. 9 - last sentence of chapter 1.3): Lata answers to her > brother's daughter "Yes, kuchuk, of course, I'm sorry. [...] Come, let's > all go together and get some." > > 2. Maloos (p. 431 - one of the last paragraphs of the chapter 7.23): > Meenakshi answers to her mother-in-law: "Of course I can, Maloos dear, don't > be so old-fashioned." > > 3. order papers (p. 254 - middle of the chapter 5.7): in a Parliament: > "Several members of the House were on their feet, waving their order papers, > and no one, not even the Speaker, could be clearly heard." > > In the first two cases I ask for both meaning and the original writing in > Hindi (Bengali) - use any transcription you want but specify which one it > is. In the second case we are not sure what the "order papers" are. Any > suggestions? > > Thank you, Jan Dvorak > > From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Sun Sep 29 02:32:59 1996 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 11:32:59 +0900 Subject: Request for Information ... Message-ID: <161227026156.23782.5085778876417656571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:24 AM 96.9.27 +0100, Sreenivasa S. S. Nittala wrote: >I am working on some topics in the following area : > "ZERO : Its origin and place in Indian Thought" >I am looking for a good bibliography. I would appreciate if you >could provide me a selected list of recommended books/papers. Many books/papers have been published in the said area. The following are only a few of them. Bronkhorst, J. 1994. `A Note on Zero and the Numerical Place-Value System in Ancient India.' {\em Asiatische Studien} 48 (4), 1039--1042. Gupta, R.C. 1995. `Who Invented the Zero?' {\em Ga\d{n}ita Bh\=arat\=\i} (Bulletin of the Indian Society for Historyof Science) 17, 45--61. Hayashi, T. 1988. `The Discovery of Zero.' (in Japanese) {\em Kagakusi Kenky\=u} (Journal of History of Science, Japan) 166, 84--92. Ruegg, D.S. 1978. `Mathematical and Linguistic Models in Indian Thought: The Case of Zero and {\em \'s\=unyat\=a}.' {\em Wiener Zeitschrift f\"ur die Kunde S\"udasiens} 22, 171--181. Best wishes, Hayashi From kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU Mon Sep 30 04:11:48 1996 From: kiparsky at csli.Stanford.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 21:11:48 -0700 Subject: Mendeleev, Boehtlingk, and Panini Message-ID: <161227026160.23782.7503652255987842317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an earlier posting I conjectured that the Russian chemist Dimitri Mendeleev knew enough about the Sivasutras to recognize their resemblance to the periodic system of chemical elements that he had discovered. This would explain the puzzling fact that he gave Sanskrit names to the unknown elements predicted by his periodic system, an almost unique use of Sanskrit in systematic scientific nomenclature: it was intended as acknowledgement of and homage to the other great periodic system of science. How could Mendeleev have found out about the Sivasutras? It seems he never studied Sanskrit --- he was far too busy for that --- but he might have got his information through personal contact. I am grateful for the information provided by Wyzlic and Karttunen on the St. Petersburg Sanskritists. My best guess now is that Mendeleev's source was Boehtlingk, the connaisseur and editor of Panini, who worked at the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences a few blocks from Mendeleev's laboratory. He was certainly aware of the beauty of Panini's grammar, and I have now found evidence that he knew Mendeleev. A perusal of the Proceedings of the Academy shows that Boehtlingk and Mendeleev must have known about each other's work at least since 1861, and that they met in 1862, if not earlier. Both published articles in the Proceedings in 1861 (philology and natural science were not in separate series then), and Mendeleev addressed the Academy when he was awarded its prestigious Demidov prize for his book Organic Chemistry, which had appeared in 1861, when Boehtlingk was on the nomination committee for the prize. In any case, the analogies between the two systems are striking. Just as Panini found that the phonological patterning of sounds in the language is a function of their articulatory properties, so Mendeleev found that the chemical properties of elements are a function of their atomic weights. Like Panini, Mendeleev arrived at his discovery through a search for the "grammar" of the elements (using what he called the principle of isomorphism, and looking for general formulas to generate the possible chemical compounds). Just as Panini arranged the sounds in order of increasing phonetic complexity (e.g. with the simple stops k,p... preceding the other stops, and representing all of them in expressions like kU, pU) so Mendeleev arranged the elements in order of increasing atomic weights, and called the first row (oxygen, nitrogen, carbon etc.) "typical (or representative) elements". Just as Panini broke the phonetic parallelism of sounds when the simplicity of the system required it, e.g. putting the velar to the right of the labial in the nasal row, so Mendeleev gave priority to isomorphism over atomic weights when they conflicted, e.g. putting beryllium in the magnesium family because it patterns with it even though by atomic weight it seemed to belong with nitrogen and phosphorus. In both cases, the periodicities they discovered would later be explained by a theory of the internal structure of the elements. Paul Kiparsky From zysk at is2.nyu.edu Mon Sep 30 11:35:05 1996 From: zysk at is2.nyu.edu (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 07:35:05 -0400 Subject: pancaparvan Message-ID: <161227026163.23782.3048911953582090322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should be most grateful if someone could give me the exact meaning of pancaparvan, and the references to it from the appropriate texts. Many thanks, Ken From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Sep 30 15:53:03 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 08:53:03 -0700 Subject: panca-parvan Message-ID: <161227026176.23782.12160016160307372184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> seya.m panca-parvaa bhavaty avidyaa 'avidyaasmitaa-raaga-dve.sabhinive;saa.h kle;saa' iti -- Yoga-bhaa.sya on Yoga-suutra 1.8. The citation given in this remark refers to Yoga-suutra 2.3. Ashok Aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Sep 30 13:59:44 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 08:59:44 -0500 Subject: Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar Message-ID: <161227026171.23782.4975913600767044726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope the Proceedings of this Seminar will be published just like the 1979 Proceedings under the same title. Best Wishes, N. Ganesan > From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Wed Sep 25 19:11:35 1996 > Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:12:00 BST > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Madhav Deshpande > To: Members of the list > Subject: Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar > > Dear Indology Members, > I am pleased to announce the Program of the following > Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar. You are all welcome to attend. > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande > > Michigan-Lausanne > International Seminar > > Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: > Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology > > 25-27 October, 1996 > (All Sessions) Hussey Room, Michigan League (2nd Floor) > The University of Michigan > Ann Arbor, Michigan > > Organized by: > Professor Johannes Bronkhorst (Lausanne) > Professor Madhav M. Deshpande (Michigan) > Professor Thomas R. Trautmann (Michigan) > > Oct 25, Friday, Morning Session > > 8:30 - 9:00 Registration > 9:00 - 9:15 Welcome (Deshpande / Bronkhorst) > > Chair : Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne, Lausanne) > > 9:15 - 10:00 Thomas Trautmann (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "Constructing the Racial Theory of Indian Civilization" > > 10:00 - 10:45 Hans H. Hock (University of Illinois, Urbana) > "Through a glass darkly: Modern Colonialist Attitudes vs. > Textual and General Prehistoric Evidence on 'Race' and > 'Caste' in Vedic Indo-Aryan Society" > > 10:45 - 11:00 Coffee Break > > 11:00 - 11:45 Nicholas Allen (Oxford University, U.K.) > "Hinduism as an Indo-European Ideology: Cultural > Comparativism and Political Sensitivities" > > 11:45 - 12:15 Open Discussion > > > Lunch 12:15 - 2:00 > > > October 25, Friday, Afternoon Session > > Chair : Michael Witzel (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA) > > 2:00 - 2:45 Asko Parpola (University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland) > "Sanskrit kimpuru.sa and kinnara : An Early Mixture of > Aryan and Dravidian" > > 2:45 - 3:30 Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne, Lausanne, > Switzerland) > "Is there an Inner Conflict of Tradition?" > > 3:30 - 3:45 Coffee Break > > 3:45 - 4:30 Gernot Windfuhr (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "A Note on Airyaman and Friendship" > > 4:30 - 5:00 Open Discussion > > 5:30 - 6:30 Special Lecture (Buddhist Studies) > by Professor Shoryu Katsura (Hiroshima University) > "Naagaarjuna's Logic" > > Dinner > > > ************************* > > > October 26, Saturday, Morning Session > > Chair : Carla Sinopoli (University of Michigan) > > 9:00 - 9:45 Shereen Ratnagar (Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi) > "Does archaeology hold the answers?" > > 9:45 - 10:30 Jim Shaffer (Case Western University, Cleveland) > "Orientalism and cultural continuity in South Asian > archaeology" > > 10:30 - 10:45 Coffee Break > > 10 :45 - 11:30 Michael Witzel (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA) > "The Linguistic Situation in Northern India during the > Vedic Period" > > 11:30 - 12:00 Open Discussion > > Lunch > > October 26, Saturday, Afternoon Session > > Chair : Walter Spink (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > > 2:00 - 2:45 Pashaura Singh (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "Revisiting the Arya-Samaj Movement" > > 2:45 - 3:30 Sarah Caldwell (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "Whose Goddess? Kaalii as Cultural champion in Kerala > oral narratives" > > 3:30 - 3:45 Coffee Break > > 3:45 - 4:30 Luis Gomez (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "Chinese Buddhist Understanding of 'Arya'" > > 4:30 - 5:15 Madhav M. Deshpande (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "What to do with the Anaaryas? Dharmic discourses of > inclusion and exclusion" > > 5:15 - 5:45 Open Discussion > > Dinner > > > ************************* > > > October 27, Sunday, Morning Session > > Chair : Peter Hook (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > > 9:00 - 9:45 Franklin C. Southworth (University of Pennsylvania, > Philadelphia) > "Dravidian Place-Names in Maharashtra" > > 9:45 - 10:30 Edwin Bryant (Columbia University, New York) > "Linguistic Substrata and the Indo-Aryan Migration Debate" > > 10:30 - 10:45 Coffee Break > > 10:45 - 11:30 Jayakumar Manickam (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) > "The situation of Urdu speakers in the Tamil area" > > 11:30 - 12:00 Open Discussion > > 12:00 - 12:15 Concluding Business Matters > > > > > > > From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Sep 30 14:02:37 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 09:02:37 -0500 Subject: Linda Hess's Address? Message-ID: <161227026173.23782.13461630330001958148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody give me the address & telephone number of Linda Hess please? Is she in California? Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Mon Sep 30 09:57:48 1996 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 09:57:48 +0000 Subject: Vikram Seth - some problems Message-ID: <161227026161.23782.1624377987032878759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 27 Sep 96 at 16:21, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Jan Dvorak wrote: > >> 3. order papers (p. 254 - middle of the chapter 5.7): in a Parliament: >> "Several members of the House were on their feet, waving their order papers, >> and no one, not even the Speaker, could be clearly heard." > >"paper showing order of deliberative business" -- Chambers 20th Cent. >Dict. > >These are what members of parliament have when attending a debate in the >House, like meeting agendas, to show who has the Speaker's permission to >speak, etc. > >Best wishes, >Dominik Supplementary to the above. There are certain conventions in the UK parliament which might also be in force in the Indian context. It is considered "unparliamentary" to applaud, because the proceedings are supposed to be a debate, not a performance. It has therefore become a custom to wave order-papers instead, in order to indicate strong emotion, usually approval, but sometimes demanding the Speaker's attention. (For the benefit of those familiar with the US system, in the UK the Speaker is a sort of neutral umpire and chairperson, deciding who should speak next and ensuring fair play.) Cheering is also banned, but it is permissible to say "Hear, hear" (or possibly "here, here" -- I've seen it written both ways) loudly, so as to indicate strong agreement. When this is combined with waving order-papers, the resulting din is not unlike the behaviour of a rowdy football crowd waving scarves and cheering. :-) Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu Mon Sep 30 18:23:42 1996 From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 11:23:42 -0700 Subject: Linda Hess's Address? Message-ID: <161227026175.23782.13629242930367561348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent posting on Risa-l suggests that Linda is now teaching at Stamford. She sent her posting from this address: lhess at uclink4.berkeley.edu Good luck. -- John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Sep 30 14:40:29 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (KJKARTTU) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 14:40:29 +0000 Subject: Old Indologists reply to Preciado-Solis Message-ID: <161227026165.23782.9388226406757603349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:11:02 BST >Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >From: David Magier >To: Members of the list >Subject: Re: Old Indologists reply to Preciado-Solis > >Prof. Karttunen: >When will WHO WAS WHO IN WESTERN INDOLOGY be published? I hope soon, as >this seems an invaluable reference work. > >David Magier, Phd >South Asia Librarian >Columbia University > >Dr. Magier, and others interested: I am afraid that the final publication of my collection will take some times, still. I have worked on this as a kind of hobby and my main work lies in other questions (mainly on Graeco-Indian relations). You must wait some years for it, unfortunately. In the meantime, I am ready to forward some information from it, like in the case of Preciado-Solis' question, supposing that such requests do not become very frequent and that they are only concerned with one or a few scholars. When the collection is finished (I have just reached Macdonell in computerizing my hand-written files), it will contain perhaps 900 pages. You see, not only Indologists, but a lot of archaeologists, art historians, colonial officers and missionaries working on Indian linguistics etc. have been included. Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Department of Asian and African Studies University of Helsinki