From mrabe at artic.edu Fri Nov 1 01:28:28 1996
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 96 20:28:28 -0500
Subject: Vikram Seth - some more problems
Message-ID: <161227026618.23782.8863562002831483956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In affirmation of Peter Banos who replied as follows to:
> Ruksh - this should be a name of some war-horse, the sentence sound like
> 'he is not a war-horse like Ruksh or Bucephalus' (this is not
> a citation), where Bucephalus is the name of the horse of Alexander
> the Great.
This sounds like the name of the horse of one of the heroes of the
Shahnameh - Rustam I think?
There's a spectacular painting of this horse, "Rakhsh" fighting off a lion
to protect his sleeping master Rustam, from an early 16th c.Tabrizi mss. of
the Shahnama in the British Museum: now on the jacket-cover of Sheila Blair
and Jonathon Bloom's opus, _The Art and Architecture of Islam 1250-1800_
(Yale, 1994).
And as an alternative to Carolyn's very plausible suggestion:
>
>>Rat - In the beginning of a letter to her beloved Kabir, Lata writes:
>> 'My sweet Rat, my sweetest sweetest Rat' or something like this,
>> the capital R is correct. My Indian informant told me: "this must
>> be the English 'rat'", but I hesitate.
>
>rat is "night" in Bengali--might, then, be a term of endearment for a lover?
...
>Carolyn Brown
>International Writing Program
>Univ. of Iowa
What about "rath" as chariot--with all it's festive, rathosvava
connotations; plus the innuendo of elephants in rut... [this without having
read Seth].
From wfsands at mum.edu Fri Nov 1 15:08:35 1996
From: wfsands at mum.edu (wfsands at mum.edu)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 09:08:35 -0600
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227026625.23782.11916455144212062087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Fred,
Greetings
Do you know where I can find information on anyonyabhava, atyantabhava,
etc. as aspects of arguement? I found a description of each in some text
several years ago, but I can't remember where (I looked in my Nyaya texts
without luck). I would like to have a primary and secondary source, if
possible.
Thanks so much,
---
William Sands, Ph.D.
Maharishi University of Management
FM 1015
Fairfield, Iowa 52557
Phone: (515) 472-1149
Fax: (515) 472-1189
E-mail wfsands at mum.edu
http://www.mum.edu
From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Nov 1 15:05:51 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 10:05:51 -0500
Subject: Madhav Deshpande's abstract of the Michigan-Lausanne conference
Message-ID: <161227026622.23782.5603206909953754463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Dominik,
Here is one more abstract from the Michigan-Lausanne
International Seminar which was missing from the earlier posting. This
now completes the full set of abstracts. Please add it to the Web
document. Thanks.
Madhav
WHOSE GODDESS? KALI AS CULTURAL CHAMPION IN KERALA ORAL NARRATIVES
Sarah Lee Caldwell (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor)
Bhagavati, the goddess who dominates both the landscape and
consciousness of the people of Kerala, is a complex figure who embodies
diverse streams of geography, culture, history, and religious expression.
Over the many centuries of her development, she has incorporated these
myriad dimensions into her persona. Kerala too has a unique place within
Indian history and culture. Although until the 10th century it was part
of the greater Tamil tradition of south India, sharing language and many
traditions with neighboring areas, Kerala's geography has always
demarcated it as a separate region. Due to its topography, Kerala was
both physically isolated from the rest of India throughout much of its
history, and open to extesive trade contacts with other countries, ranging
from Europe to China, through its busy sea trade. The Dravidian culture
of Tamil south India formed the substrat of Kerala's early history, but
this was also modified by continual contact with China, Greece, Rome,
Egypt, the ancient Near East and Europe. This extraordinary mixture of
influences resulted in a unique culture that was not at all homogeneous.
This variegated physical and social landscape was characterized by
rich diversity and cooperation, but also by conflict. The conflictual
model is the essential drama of ancient Dravidian and Aryan cultures, and
is reflected in the stories enacted in Kerala's many ritual arts. The
mythic battle between the demonic king Darika and the warrior goddess
Bhadrakali has been seen by many as an allegory of historical conflict
between real political rivals. However, interpretations of this
allegorical history are widely varied. All agree that Kali represents the
good and Darika the evil; but exactly how these are defined depends
largely on one's point of view. Some identify Kali with the Aryan rulers
of the lowlands; others claim her to be a tribal or Dravidian deity.
Narratives collected during anthropological fieldwork in 1991-92 also
conflate the Kali-Darika conflict with contemporary party polotics and
world political figures.
Two themes emerge in all the various versions of legendary history
collected in Kerala: the idea that some form of conquest of the
indigenous culture took place, and that Kali derives from and represents
that indigenous culture. The differing assignments of cultural identity
to Kali and differing understandings of her "Aryanness" and
"Dravidianness" by indigenous experts are discussed, and Asko Parpola's
theory of first and second wave Aryans is evaluated in light of this
Kerala material. This paper thus explores allegories of living history as
we trace the development of Kerala's unique culture through numerous
layers of external contact and conquest, and the deployment of cultural
categories in understanding that history.
From ssa at violet.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 1 18:59:27 1996
From: ssa at violet.berkeley.edu (ssa at violet.berkeley.edu)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 10:59:27 -0800
Subject: Hindi-Urdu Position
Message-ID: <161227026629.23782.13551248864306957325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
POSITION AVAILABLE IN HINDI-URDU LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT BERKELEY.
The Department of South and Southeast Studies invites applications for a
full-time, tenure or tenure-track position in Hindi-Urdu Language and
Literature to begin with Academic Year 1997-98. The rank of the appointment
is open and will depend on the qualifications of the successful applicant.
Applicants must possess the Ph.D. in Hindi and/or Urdu Language and
Literature or a closely related field and native or near-native proficiency
in the spoken and written forms of these languages. Significant academic
training in Sanskrit and/or Persian will be a distinct advantage. Knowledge
of an additional modern Indian language is desirable. Research
specialization with an emphasis on modern or contemporary Hindi or Urdu
literature is desirable but applicants with specialization in earlier
periods will also be considered. In either case it is expected that the
successful applicant will be able to demonstrate scholarly familiarity with
older as well as more modern forms of the language. Applicants should
demonstrate significant engagement with the theoretical and methodological
concerns of contemporary literary, social, historical and cultural
scholarship on South Asia and should be aware of contemporary developments
in language pedagogy. Teaching responsibilities will include advanced
courses in Hindi and/or Urdu language, upper division and graduate lectures
and seminars in Hindi and Urdu literature as well as undergraduate and
graduate courses on the cultures, religions, literatures and civilizations
of traditional and contemporary South Asia.
Applicants' letters should describe their current and projected research
and teaching interests and should be accompanied by copies of relevant
publications, the names and addresses of three referees, and, if possible,
evaluations of teaching.
APPLICATION DEADLINE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 17, 1997
Direct applications and inquiries to:
The Chair,
Hindi-Urdu Search Committee
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
The University of California is an Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action
Employer.
Sally J. Sutherland Goldman
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
ssa at violet.berkeley.edu
Phone:(510) 642-2409
Fax: (510) 642-3582
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 1 13:09:06 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 13:09:06 +0000
Subject: Madhav Deshpande's abstract of the Michigan-Lausanne conference
Message-ID: <161227026620.23782.3839419433334443699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A few hours ago, Madhav posted the abstracts of the Aryans and Non-Aryans
in South Asia" conference to INDOLOGY. I've just added them to the
INDOLOGY web site,
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html
under "Members' queries and information".
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Fri Nov 1 23:18:12 1996
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 13:18:12 -1000
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026638.23782.10958086756120225396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote:
> The y-root is the equivalent of the f-word. Otherwise there are no taboo
> words I can think of, indeed one of the oddities of Sanskrit is that the
> vocabulary for sexual parts or things has no particular distinction into
> the obscene, the neutral, the euphuistic, the medical, etc.; the words are
> unmarked that way.
>
> (Or are they, and we are just deceived because the
> traditional dictionaries work by series of synonyms, and in fact words
> have differences of meaning and use the dictionaries don't discuss?
Maybe there's no such thing as
"colloquial Sanskrit", hence the
lack of dirty words. Are there dirty
words in Esperanto? -- or in ASL
(American Sign Language)?
Regards,
Raja.
From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Nov 1 20:17:31 1996
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 14:17:31 -0600
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026631.23782.8483022133141796091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
One of my beginning Sanskrit students this year asked me today if
Sanskrit had any "dirty" words. As many students who step into my
Sanskrit class assume, especially if they come to Sanskrit from an
interest in the study of religion, she assumed that it couldn't possibly
have any "dirty" words. Ever eager to disabuse students of the idea that
Sanskrit is a language in which only spiritual or religious ideas can be
expressed, I quickly assured her that it did have some such vocabulary.
When asked for an example, I was stumped, red-faced and ashamed of my
ignorance. Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
k.rtaj~natayA saha,
Bob Hueckstedt
Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies
fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797
From athr at loc.gov Fri Nov 1 22:10:13 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 17:10:13 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026633.23782.10714135514561227044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The y-root is the equivalent of the f-word. Otherwise there are no taboo
words I can think of, indeed one of the oddities of Sanskrit is that the
vocabulary for sexual parts or things has no particular distinction into
the obscene, the neutral, the euphuistic, the medical, etc.; the words are
unmarked that way.
(Or are they, and we are just deceived because the
traditional dictionaries work by series of synonyms, and in fact words
have differences of meaning and use the dictionaries don't discuss?
Didn't V. Raghavan do an article or two about this problem? I believe
Kenneth Langer discussed the differences in words for women in his
dissertation (Women and love in Sanskrit coutry poetry : a semantic
approach, Harvard, 1978). If there are differences not noted in the
traditional dictionaries and therefore in the European language
dictionaries based on them, the vocabulary of sex may be marked.)
Allen Thrasher
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Hueckstedt wrote:
>
> One of my beginning Sanskrit students this year asked me today if
> Sanskrit had any "dirty" words. As many students who step into my
> Sanskrit class assume, especially if they come to Sanskrit from an
> interest in the study of religion, she assumed that it couldn't possibly
> have any "dirty" words. Ever eager to disabuse students of the idea that
> Sanskrit is a language in which only spiritual or religious ideas can be
> expressed, I quickly assured her that it did have some such vocabulary.
> When asked for an example, I was stumped, red-faced and ashamed of my
> ignorance. Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
>
> k.rtaj~natayA saha,
> Bob Hueckstedt
>
> Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
> Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
> Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada
> http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies
> fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797
>
>
>
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 1 18:20:48 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 18:20:48 +0000
Subject: unsuscribing
Message-ID: <161227026626.23782.3626883203865857903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Debra Lynn Diamond wrote:
> Does anyone know if I can put the indology at liverpool newsgroup messages on
> hold for 8 months while I am in India? If that's not possible, how does
> one un-subscribe? Thanks in advance for advice.
There is a way of doing this (without unsubscribing); for full details,
send the message "help" to the address "listerv at liverpool.ac.uk", and
follow the stuff about "set" and "nomail" (I think).
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From HFArnold at aol.com Sat Nov 2 02:43:09 1996
From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 21:43:09 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026640.23782.11913434698598198417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Now here's an interesting thread!
One way to start researching this would be to flip through Whitney's
Sanskrit Roots, looking for those that are glossed in Latin, rather than in
English. The two that leap to mind are yabh, 'futuere,' and had, 'cacare.'
This approach may also broaden your Latin vocabulary in interesting and
unexpected ways.
It won't, however, tell you what words Sanskrit speakers considered
"dirty," just what Victorian indologists did. The standard practice, until
quite recently, was to translate all "dirty" words and passages into Latin,
apparently on the theory that only real scholars could read Latin, and they,
of course, would not have a prurient interest in Sanskrit texts. I have one
German translation of the Kama Sutra in which all the good parts are in
Latin. Even this practice was not enough for Keith, who simply declared some
of the passages of the Taittiriya Samhita concerning the horse sacrifice
untranslatable.
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Nov 1 22:59:21 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 23:59:21 +0100
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026635.23782.5276442267144328299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 20:49 1.11.96 GMT, you wrote:
>
>One of my beginning Sanskrit students this year asked me today if
>Sanskrit had any "dirty" words. As many students who step into my
>Sanskrit class assume, especially if they come to Sanskrit from an
>interest in the study of religion, she assumed that it couldn't possibly
>have any "dirty" words. Ever eager to disabuse students of the idea that
>Sanskrit is a language in which only spiritual or religious ideas can be
>expressed, I quickly assured her that it did have some such vocabulary.
>When asked for an example, I was stumped, red-faced and ashamed of my
>ignorance. Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
>
I believe the one that should have most immediate appeal to Americans is
the verbal root YABH (present indicative YABHATI). It corresponds to a very
common English four-letter word, usually worked to death in American movies
depicting people of lesser breeding. Since I do not want to fall afoul of
the new puritanism in American networks, I refrain from translating it. Look
it up!
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From bpj at netg.se Fri Nov 1 22:47:50 1996
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 00:47:50 +0200
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026646.23782.17183804739792237635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 23:23 1.11.1996 +0000, Narayan S. Raja wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote:
>
>> The y-root is the equivalent of the f-word. Otherwise there are no taboo
>> words I can think of, indeed one of the oddities of Sanskrit is that the
>> vocabulary for sexual parts or things has no particular distinction into
>> the obscene, the neutral, the euphuistic, the medical, etc.; the words are
>> unmarked that way.
>>
>> (Or are they, and we are just deceived because the
>> traditional dictionaries work by series of synonyms, and in fact words
>> have differences of meaning and use the dictionaries don't discuss?
>
>
>Maybe there's no such thing as
>"colloquial Sanskrit", hence the
>lack of dirty words. Are there dirty
>words in Esperanto? -- or in ASL
>(American Sign Language)?
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Raja.
In Esperanto there are dirty words. "Fiki" and "kaco" come to my mind off
my head. They correspond to the English 5-letter-words beginning in the
same letters, incidentally. Both are adopted from Italian.
Regards
BPJ
From magier at columbia.edu Sat Nov 2 12:16:01 1996
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 07:16:01 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026652.23782.3178395843516631079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> Siegel, L, Laughing matters, the comic tradition in India, University of
> Chicago Press has many such words, some very innovative...
Author: Siegel, Lee, 1945-
Title: Laughing matters : comic tradition in India / Lee Siegel.
Description: xviii, 497 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
Published: Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1987.
LCCN: 87011268
ISN: 0226756912 : $35.00
/david magier
From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Nov 2 13:57:27 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 08:57:27 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026656.23782.12725011205256740670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indologists,
In spite of the feeling on the part of some folks that a
"spiritual" language like Sanskrit could not have had any dirty words, it
indeed had a lot and continues to have a lot. It it just that this
register does not appear commonly in literary works. Students who were
studying Sanskrit at traditional institutions in India, including myself,
often used Sanskrit for the entire range of registers. Since I assume we
are all adults on this network, I can report something which is widely
known among Indian and many western Sanskritists. For example, Panini's
rules hrasvam laghu, samyoge guru, diirgham ca have been often converted
into a dialogue about the size of sexual organs. Vedic passages like
puu.s.no hastaabhyaam, a"vinor baahubhyaam, atiraatre .so.da"sinam
g.rh.naati etc. were routinely used by Sanskrit students in Pune in
euphemistic ways. Cursing expressions like daasyaa.h putra and raa.n.deya
are well known. Conversation between Bhiima and Gha.totkaca in Bhaasa's
Madhyamavyaayoga has similar abusive allusions. Most explicit "dirty"
language is found in many Bhaa.nas and Prahasanas. I have a whole bunch
of them sitting on my shelves. Even the titles of works in grammar like
Manoramaakucamardinii have allusions to the same register.
Madhav Deshpande
From thompson at jlc.net Sat Nov 2 12:58:56 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 08:58:56 -0400
Subject: Words and dirt
Message-ID: <161227026654.23782.16564347840346995220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Like Dominique, I don't know if the words that Bob Hueckstedt's student is
seeking are actually "dirty", either in themselves or in their own context,
but the issue surely deserves comment, esp. in light of Jean Fezas'
interesting observations.
I think that it is quite likely that certain words were considered to be
taboo in Vedic. Verbs like yabh-, had-, and pard-, as far as I know, are
rarely attested in Vedic [certainly they do not appear in the RV], but it
is very likely [given that they appear to have IE cognates] that they were
current, say, at the RV period. Of course, the absence of these words in
the RV does not prove that they were taboo. Words like ze'pa and bheda'
are attested in the RV, so apparently reference to genitalia was not taboo
in that text [re ze'pa: is the gloss "tail" a modern euphemism, or is it
rather a Vedic one? Likewise ZiSNa' = "tail, penis"].
I have always been puzzled by the fact that in the azvamedha the "central
mystery" of this ritual, i.e., the mating of the mahiSI with the horse,
hidden under a blanket of course, is accompanied by what is universally
recognized as "obscene banter" between the king's other wives and the
priests who are present [note that our word yabh- occurs here].
Of course, it is frequently pointed out that this "extremely explicit...
showcasing of extreme sexuality" [thus Jamison, "Sacrificed Wife...", p.65]
has something to do with promoting fertility and sexual power. No doubt.
What is of interest to me is the role of words, obscene words, in
performing this function.
The Vedic RSis were certainly *acutely* aware of "les pouvoirs de la
parole" [the phrase is Renou's]. It would seem to me that they were aware
of the fact that words which refer to taboo, i.e., emotionally charged
matters [like sex with horses] themselves become highly charged words. So
if you want to promote fertility and sexual potency, these are the words
that will do that for you.
So, maybe like children who exhibit interest in "dirty" words, the Vedic
RSis seem to have been sensitive to the fact that such words had power, and
they had power precisely because they were "dirty". Of course, the
anthropologist Mary Douglas has interesting things to say about dirt.
George
From thillaud at unice.fr Sat Nov 2 09:33:37 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 10:33:37 +0100
Subject: "dirty" ?
Message-ID: <161227026648.23782.10928702903146152443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Searching dirty words in dictionnaries is a well known childhood's
game, a fun one, and, reading indologist's answers, I feel a pleasant
nostalgia.
Well. But I'm yet an adult, and with a great interest for languages!
The answers seem to me a bit poor when restrained to two or three
words: the vocabulary of the sex is a very rich one and stupendously
poetic. In french, we can find nearly hundred syntagma for each of the
three basic words (two names and a verb). And all this words are not
'popular' ones (cf the preface of SEGHERS Pierre, _Anthologie de la poesie
erotique_). I can't believe poorer an extremely rich language as sanskrit!
And this words are words! they are true human productions, their
scholarly study has nothing to do with prudery!
And sex is not limited to three words! So, for example, who can
give a translation in sanskrit of this charming litterary terms: _fille de
joie_, _main galante_, _re'veil berbe`re_, _langue fourre'e_, _cravate de
notaire_, _feuille de rose_ or _store ve'nitien_ (I use french because it
seems to me a new equivalent of latin: not understand by prude people). But
I suppose it would be better to use private e-mail for such mailing,
sparing all susceptibilities.
Friendly,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 2 19:17:02 1996
From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 11:17:02 -0800
Subject: Jan Houben (IIAS)
Message-ID: <161227026657.23782.16745068289083879528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
May I get help regarding how to contact Jan Houben?
Any e-mail? Anby other way?
Thank you so much.
Best wishes,
Beatrice
From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Sat Nov 2 10:50:26 1996
From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 11:50:26 +0100
Subject: Words and dirt
Message-ID: <161227026650.23782.1352032726083222835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indology members,
I wonder if dirt attached to words in classical languages. The use
of latin for translating 'obscene' passages was not a way of hiding them to
the eyes of common people, but aimed at the elimination of obscenity,
because this notion did not exist in latin. When, for instance, Martial uses
_futuere_ it is certainly not a dirty word, it only describes an act for
which no circumlocution was needed in his times. I suppose that
Shakespeare's English, just like Rabelais' French abounds in words deemed to
be 'obscene' or 'dirty' for the hypocritically correct.
In _kathaa sariit saagara_ VI.2.156sqq, kaliGgasenaa tells to her
friend (sakhii) somaprabhaa, the story of a brahmin who invoked a demon
(pizaaca) to heal an ulcered wound. The 'obstinately persistent' demon,
after curing him, asks for another wound to heal. The brahmin's widowed
daughter, to help her father, offers the Pizaaca a natural wound which,
despite his efforts, he is unable to heal; worse, taking a closer look to
the wound, he discovers another one under it (VI.2.180 dvitiiyaM tasyaadhaH
sa paayu-vraNam aikSata)... frightened by the impossibility of the task he
runs away, never to come back.
Tawney's translation omits this passage, replaced by 'eventually he
baffled the Pi's'aca by the help of his daughter...', and refers to Wilson
in a note : I have been obliged to omit some portion of this story. It was
acceptable to the _conteurs_ of Europe, and is precisely the same as that of
'Le petit diable de Papefigue' of [Jean de la] Fontaine. Obviously french
language of the 17th century was 'latin-like' for Victorian english translators.
This would only an example of 'histoire coquine' in sanskrit, if in
VI.2.173 kaliGasenaa did not stop a while before resuming her story, because
she was 'ashamed of telling a 'dirty' (azliila-) story (_ity uktvaa virataa
madhyaad azliilaakhyaana-lajjayaa /_). This shows that, if one can doubt
that words could be felt as 'dirty*' by sanskrit authors, the idea that some
stories were 'shocking' (dirty) exists in sanskrit.
*for the etymology of azriila- / azriira- cf. M. Mayrhofer s.v. & sv. zriiH
(_zriira-_ schoen anzusehen). When, in my childhood, I used a 'dirty word',
my mother used to tell me 'ce n'est pas beau', never 'c'est sale'...
NB. azliila is not recorded in the English-Sanskrit dictionary of Monier
Williams (542b, s.v. obscene), where we find 'obscene word': _apazabdaH,
durvacanaM_.
_apazabda_ is, according to Renou (Terminologie grammaticale du sanskrit 1
p. 48) a "forme vicieuse, barbarisme" glossed by "mleccha-", an equivalent
of _apabhraMza_ I hope that this association of obscenity and foreign
language should heal any one I could have wounded...
J.Fezas
(URA 1058 CNRS - Universit? Paris III)
prabhavanti yato lokaaH pralayaM yaanti yena ca.
saMsaara-vartma vivRtaM kaH pidhaatuM tad iizvaraH..
(Somadeva, KathaaSaritSaagara 6.2.182)
From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Sat Nov 2 02:58:28 1996
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 15:58:28 +1300
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026642.23782.10767837210861291524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Sanskrit is a language in which only spiritual or religious ideas can be
>expressed, I quickly assured her that it did have some such vocabulary.
>When asked for an example, I was stumped, red-faced and ashamed of my
>ignorance. Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
Siegel, L, Laughing matters, the comic tradition in India, University of
Chicago Press has many such words, some very innovative. It also makes
good reading, like his other works. It could be University of Hawaii press.
If you can't find the book by title or author search, I will be glad to
dig up the exact reference for you.
- &
From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Sat Nov 2 03:02:36 1996
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 16:02:36 +1300
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026645.23782.14685203799154403628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>lack of dirty words. Are there dirty
>words in Esperanto? -- or in ASL
>(American Sign Language)?
I can think of at least one in American Sign Language (As far as I know
it is an american contribution to motor driving etiqutette) :-)
:-)
- &
From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Sun Nov 3 03:35:09 1996
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 22:35:09 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026659.23782.6935665264703222854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The question would be what's dirty. The sex related materials,
either the description of it or the elaboration of human sexuality
do not go as "dirty" in a literary sense. Some of them might
turn out to be obscene depending upon the social attitude.
This is again different than the metaphorical use of phrases
with their possible meanings to the purviewer.
The cursing or expression of anger and frustration in words
results in "dirt". These seem to be less in number in common
knowledge. At least there is no obvious word usage as used
in modern day slangs. It's possible that the slangs existed,
but were not much written down as is the case with the present
day use of the languages. One keeps the "dirt" out when writing!!
Is there merit to this hypothesis?
- Bijoy Misra.
From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Nov 3 11:14:13 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 06:14:13 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026661.23782.16068983960393524842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Bijoy Misra has a good point. How do we know which expressions were felt
to be "dirty" and therefore were either used or avoided in different
contexts. This reminds me of the word "sa.spa in Sanskrit which can mean
either grass or pubic hair. In old Brahman Marathi usage, in order to
express something like "I don't lose anything, if such and such happens",
one would literally say "I don't lose my "saspa". Now how do we know this
word was felt to be dirty? At least to my Sanskrit teachers in Pune, the
word was felt to be so dirty, that even when Kalidasa uses it to mean
'grass', they changed Kalidasa's wording. A case in point is Kalidasa's
expression from the second canto of Raghuvam"sa:
gangaaprapaataantaviruu.dha"sa.spam
gauriiguror gahvaram aavive"sa
Our teachers had altered the first line to replace the word "sa.spa with
the word t.r.na.
This particular case raises some interesting possibilities. For
example, when one reads the Sanskrit expression aham tvaam t.r.naaya
manye, it is now possible to see an extended meaning of the word t.r.na.
All the best,
Madhav Deshpande
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Bijoy Misra wrote:
>
> The question would be what's dirty. The sex related materials,
> either the description of it or the elaboration of human sexuality
> do not go as "dirty" in a literary sense. Some of them might
> turn out to be obscene depending upon the social attitude.
> This is again different than the metaphorical use of phrases
> with their possible meanings to the purviewer.
>
> The cursing or expression of anger and frustration in words
> results in "dirt". These seem to be less in number in common
> knowledge. At least there is no obvious word usage as used
> in modern day slangs. It's possible that the slangs existed,
> but were not much written down as is the case with the present
> day use of the languages. One keeps the "dirt" out when writing!!
>
> Is there merit to this hypothesis?
>
> - Bijoy Misra.
>
>
>
From thompson at jlc.net Sun Nov 3 12:29:40 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 08:29:40 -0400
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026663.23782.2214509909379191008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Bijoy Misra has a good point. How do we know which expressions were felt
>to be "dirty" and therefore were either used or avoided in different
>contexts.
It is true that the task is not easy, especially in the case of Vedic, from
which we are separated by a few thousand years. Admittedly the
distribution of the verb yabh- in Vedic doesn't prove anything, but it sure
is suggestive.
There is other evidence of taboo avoidance of sex [at least with animals]
in Vedic. RV 10.86 depicts graphic sex between Indra's kapi' ["monkey"]
and IndrANI. VERY graphic stuff, say, at verses 6-8. What makes me think
that this topic might have been considered "dirty"?
Well, the verb adUduSat in stanza 5:
priyA' taSTA'ni me kapi'r vya`ktA vi' adUduSat
"the monkey has *dirtied* my pretty little things"
[literally "well-made, nicely anointed"]
"To spoil, to defile, to dirty" seems like a reasonable gloss of the verb
duS- here.
Here it is, a fine Sunday morning in New England. I should be in church,
instead of discussing Vedic bestiality!
George
From AmitaSarin at aol.com Sun Nov 3 15:50:47 1996
From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 10:50:47 -0500
Subject: Vikram Seth
Message-ID: <161227026665.23782.10159171335957485938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A caution against searching too hard for deep symbolic meanings. When Lata
addresses Kabir as "My Dear Rat" she quite possibly means exactly that -- Rat
as in rodent. Animal names, as well as nonsense words are often used as
humorous terms of endearment. English-speaking Indians might translate these
into English. Or perhaps this is a British habit. In any case, I know of so
many people nicknamed Bunny, Puppy, and so on. Lata is probably refering
affectionately and teasingly to her boy friend. Perhaps he had just done
something sneaky or rat-like. A page no. or the rest of the letter might
help unravel the mystery.
Best of luck!
Amita Sarin
From bthorp at plains.nodak.edu Sun Nov 3 17:01:09 1996
From: bthorp at plains.nodak.edu (Burt M Thorp)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 11:01:09 -0600
Subject: From filth to insults
Message-ID: <161227026671.23782.432051726032782302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At a conference I met a Shakespearean scholar from Nottingham University
(named Pete; I could probably track him down, Harold, if you're really
interested) who is writing a book on "Scatological Language" (not a
linguistic study, a Culture Studies approach). We talked about Lee
Siegel's work. Anyway, some people take the subject seriously as
monograph material (to be published no doubt by Verso or Routledge). Of
course we know that Culture Studies people "just want to have fun".
Burt M. Thorp
University of North Dakota
Internet: bthorp at plains.nodak.edu
From Sfauthor at aol.com Sun Nov 3 16:38:10 1996
From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 11:38:10 -0500
Subject: From filth to insults
Message-ID: <161227026668.23782.10533442761887455552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
This isn't indological, but since everyone was having so much fun with dirty
words, I thought I would pass it along.
HUMOROUS WEB SITE: Random Elizabethan Curse Generator
http://www.tower.org/disease/insult.html
"Oh, thou infectious bunched-backed canker-blossom!"
Press the "Curse!" button to be randomly cursed in grand Elizabethan
style. Revel in insults that may have been spoken by Shakespeare or Ben
Jonson! Relive a bit of history! Annoy your friends! There are more
than 388000 curses possible!
Examples:
Thou lumpish evil-eyed minimus!
Thou spleeny onion-eyed strumpet!
Thou gleeking motley-minded puttock!
Thou froward clapper-clawed ratsbane!
Thou wenching rump-fed ruffian!
Thou wanton shard-borne bugbear!
From everson at indigo.ie Sun Nov 3 15:26:02 1996
From: everson at indigo.ie (Michael Everson)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 16:26:02 +0100
Subject: INDOLOGY digest 552
Message-ID: <161227026667.23782.622678704284772058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The Sanskrit verb _yabhati_ is the equivalent of the English word 'fuck'.
It is an ancient Indo-European root; compare Russian _ebat'_, which is
used in maledictory contexts with even more vigour than the English term
is.
I used plain English in this message. Latin translation available on
request.
Michael Everson
---
Michael Everson
Everson Gunn Teoranta
From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Sun Nov 3 21:40:38 1996
From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 16:40:38 -0500
Subject: "dirty" ?
Message-ID: <161227026678.23782.7111463548832861315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Perhaps I am not the only one who hopes we -- professional scholars of
Classical India and Sanskrit -- can honestly discuss such issues as "dirty
words" without blushing, and without feeling we must resort to private email
to spare sensibilities? The recent post by Dominique Thillaud suggested --
or seemed to suggest -- that a private communication was the way to go. i
hope not. As I think the recent discussions in Ann Arbor at the
Michigan-Laussane Conference showed with regard to issues of race and skin
color, such "delicate" issues *can* -- I would say *must* -- be openly
discussed without prejudice and without inhibition if we are to understand
Classical India in its own terms, not in the terms of our own (or own age's)
inhibitions.
J Silk
From gjh8 at columbia.edu Sun Nov 3 23:50:46 1996
From: gjh8 at columbia.edu (Gary J Hausman)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 18:50:46 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026680.23782.10511975097946435124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The same qualification holds in Tamil. The Tamil word "mulai"
meaning "(woman's) breast" is generally considered inappropriate for
polite company in contemporary speech, yet was obviously used in ancient
Tamil poetry without such connotations. According to K. Paramasivam, when
he encountered that word in a text being taught in one of his Tamil
classes (at American College in Madurai), he would skip over it, without
comment.
From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mon Nov 4 03:44:39 1996
From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 21:44:39 -0600
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026682.23782.1316120516319133087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Ye olde Victorian prude, Monier-Williams himself, lists maat.rgaamin,
"going to a mother, one who has committed incest with his mother," citing
an unnamed Paa~ncaraatra text. Now this might not have meant what it
does, say, on the streets of Philadelphia (or even Iowa), and maybe it
was even clinical or purely descriptive. So it might not have been a
dirty word then, though it's awfully tempting.
Fred Smith
From D.Plukker at inter.NL.net Sun Nov 3 20:55:31 1996
From: D.Plukker at inter.NL.net (D.Plukker at inter.NL.net)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 21:55:31 +0100
Subject: Jan Houben (IIAS)
Message-ID: <161227026676.23782.14236053681813070804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>May I get help regarding how to contact Jan Houben?
>Any e-mail? Anby other way?
>Thank you so much.
>Best wishes,
>Beatrice
>
jhouben at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl
Regards,
Dick Plukker
India Institute, Amsterdam
From gvvajrac at facstaff.wisc.edu Mon Nov 4 04:55:31 1996
From: gvvajrac at facstaff.wisc.edu (Gautama Vajra Vajracharya)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 22:55:31 -0600
Subject: chandobhaGga
Message-ID: <161227026685.23782.5691603590318726212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear colleagues,
I went to a traditional Sanskrit School where I composed Sanskrit zlokas
almost every single day. I still remember that in the school a violation of
laws of meter was never tolerated. Therefore it is difficult for me to
believe that Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit teachers in order to avoid
obscenity altered the word "zaSpam" with "tRNam" in Kalidasa's zloka
"gaGgAprapAtAnta..." The zloka is in the upajAti meter which does not allow
to replace "zaSpam" with "tRNam" at the end of a pAda. Think about it.
Gautama Vajracharya
From mfenn at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Mon Nov 4 04:59:45 1996
From: mfenn at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA (Mavis Fenn)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 23:59:45 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026687.23782.13624047029633219358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Just to follow up:
The complete reference is: //Laughing Matters: Comic Tradition in India//
Lee Siegel. Delhi.Varanasi.Patna.Bangalore.Madras: Motilal Banarsidass, 1989.
First edition Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987. L(ibrary) of
C(ongress) PK2945.S54. ISBN 81-208-0548-8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mavis L. Fenn, Ph.D
General Editor, Book Review Section
//The Journal of Buddhist Ethics//
mfenn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca
On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Anand Venkt Raman wrote:
> >Sanskrit is a language in which only spiritual or religious ideas can be
> >expressed, I quickly assured her that it did have some such vocabulary.
> >When asked for an example, I was stumped, red-faced and ashamed of my
> >ignorance. Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
>
> Siegel, L, Laughing matters, the comic tradition in India, University of
> Chicago Press has many such words, some very innovative. It also makes
> good reading, like his other works. It could be University of Hawaii press.
> If you can't find the book by title or author search, I will be glad to
> dig up the exact reference for you.
>
> - &
>
>
>
From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Nov 4 12:18:24 1996
From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 04:18:24 -0800
Subject: From filth to insults
Message-ID: <161227026673.23782.17757809099334916955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
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From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 4 11:34:31 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 06:34:31 -0500
Subject: chandobhaGga
Message-ID: <161227026697.23782.15022618327961364513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Good point Gautama. The reading as altered was not a mere replacement of
the word "sa.spa with t.r.na, but a few other changes to make the meter
work. It was something like
gangaaprapaataantat.r.napraruu.dham
I am not sure such an altered reading appeared in any printed materials,
but there is no doubt in my mind about my noticing a different reading in
the printed text from what was taught to us and my asking the teachers
about it. To that extent, I am reporting an event rather than a
possibility.
Madhav Deshpande
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Gautama Vajra Vajracharya wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> I went to a traditional Sanskrit School where I composed Sanskrit zlokas
> almost every single day. I still remember that in the school a violation of
> laws of meter was never tolerated. Therefore it is difficult for me to
> believe that Madhav Deshpande's Sanskrit teachers in order to avoid
> obscenity altered the word "zaSpam" with "tRNam" in Kalidasa's zloka
> "gaGgAprapAtAnta..." The zloka is in the upajAti meter which does not allow
> to replace "zaSpam" with "tRNam" at the end of a pAda. Think about it.
>
> Gautama Vajracharya
>
>
>
From thillaud at unice.fr Mon Nov 4 07:26:19 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 08:26:19 +0100
Subject: "dirty" ? Re to J.Silk
Message-ID: <161227026692.23782.954106866195811715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Perhaps I am not the only one who hopes we -- professional scholars of
>Classical India and Sanskrit -- can honestly discuss such issues as "dirty
>words" without blushing, and without feeling we must resort to private email
>to spare sensibilities? The recent post by Dominique Thillaud suggested --
>or seemed to suggest -- that a private communication was the way to go. i
>hope not. As I think the recent discussions in Ann Arbor at the
>Michigan-Laussane Conference showed with regard to issues of race and skin
>color, such "delicate" issues *can* -- I would say *must* -- be openly
>discussed without prejudice and without inhibition if we are to understand
>Classical India in its own terms, not in the terms of our own (or own age's)
>inhibitions.
>
>J Silk
I agree completely but my problem was an other one:
1) long years ago, Paul Guiraud's student in french linguistic,
I've committed a study on metaphora in the terminology of sexual
intercourse, left unpublished because without valuable results:
establishing the corpus was too hard; but experience shows I had more
answers in privacy ;-)
2) my asking was funly a revival of this old study, I was not sure
to be strictly in the scope of INDOLOGY.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Nov 4 14:00:05 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 09:00:05 -0500
Subject: Syntax of `yabh'
Message-ID: <161227026699.23782.13606750316962217163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The recent discussion has reminded of a question I had, but never tried
to answer: Datupathas specify `yabh' to be parasmaipada. I vaguely
remember the line from asvamedha banter to be `na me kascana yabhate',
where it was not clear if `me = mama' or `= mahyam'. Does anybody know
the case that `yabh' takes?
Thanks
-Nath
From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Nov 4 19:56:45 1996
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 09:56:45 -1000
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026708.23782.9297073793460502955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Hueckstedt wrote:
> In the film _Mr. Holland's Opus_ Mr. Holland's son gives him the asshole
> sign. He doesn't understand it, so his wife translates it [...] ^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^
> Thanks to all for your help in this sticky matter.
^^^^^^
^^^^^^
Surely not!? We use water.
Best wishes,
Raja.
From athr at loc.gov Mon Nov 4 15:19:47 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 10:19:47 -0500
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026703.23782.11381211631030383188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Miroslav Rozehnal wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote:
>
> > The y-root is the equivalent of the f-word. Otherwise there are no taboo
> > words I can think of, indeed one of the oddities of Sanskrit is that the
> > vocabulary for sexual parts or things has no particular distinction into
> > the obscene, the neutral, the euphuistic, the medical, etc.; the words are
> > unmarked that way.
>
> Well, if I remember well, in the Vinaya of the Pali Canon it is said
> (somewhere; sorry I do not have the refference) that it is not allowable
> for monks to address each other in terms like "you penis", "you vagina" etc.
> Maybe these could have been marked as "dirty words" at that time.
>
> Hope it helps,
> M. Rozehnal
Perhaps the ordinary words weren't dirty when applied to their objects
when they had to be spoken about (e.g. in the context of medicine or
vinaya) but became so when applied to people in contumely.
It's interesting that in European languages the most "disinfected"
terminology for sexual parts and actions is that used in medicine and
biology, which is totally direct, precise, and uneuphemistic - except to
the degree that it is latinate and at least in some European languages
e.g. English that removes it slightly from directness. On the other hand
ways of referring which are indirect can be more obscene than the blunt
medical vocabulary. E.g. at a mixed dinner party in 1900 if a doctor
mentioned "coitus" he would offend people because of the thing that
mentioned, but if he mentioned "making the beast with two backs" he would
offend worse by the obscenity of the language itself, and he would offend
yet worse if he used the f-word.
J. T. Molesworth's Marathi-English Dictionary (1st ed. 1831, 2nd ed. 1857,
corrected reprint Poona: Shubhada-Saraswat, 1975, p. xviii) has an
interesting comment:
"The insertion in the dictionary of obscene words may need explanation.
They are not obscene _in the view and sentiment of the Maratha people_;
they are ever in the mouths of the _softest_ and _most refined_ speakers.
Some few indeed there are which are, even by the Marathas themselves,
regarded as obscene: for the insertion of these we urge the exceeding
currency of them amongst the vulgar mass; and the necessity thence arising
of explaining them and proscribing them to the Marathi student; we
further refer to the observations under the word g~aa.d. Still are there
in the vulgar tongue many obscene words, especially with the initial
letters ca and ph, which we have rejected utterly."
or lower side; the back or bottom of a thing gen. G~aa.d ja.d ho.n~e. To
become disdainful or elated with pride. (6 other idioms). Note. Phrases
in use--in use with the vulgar and the _polished_, with the illiterate and
the learned, with males and females, with the man of hoary head and the
yet lisping child, and in ordinary, familiar, accepted, and most approved
used--amount to hundreds. They are heard in the market and on the road,
in the field and the house, in the discussion of matters of social
business and in angry altercations or fightings. They form an important
constituent of many causes and cases which ultimately appear in the halls
of the Collector and in the courts of the Judge. This reason for
inserting them--and this has been our reason for inserting others of the
gross and coarse phrases and terms of the nation's vocabulary--has,
however, been deemed insufficient, and all but the above few are omitted.
This observation and this notice apply also to the _compounds_ occurring
below." (There follow separate entries with translations such as "A term
for an inexpert, incompetent, silly fellow" and "fundament-wiper.")
Yabh and Yaabh are expressly condemned as not to be used by Kavyadarsa,
1.65-66.
There is a body of research on abuse and obscenity building up in the
serial Maladicta, founder-editor Reinhold Aman, whose career at Texas and
Wisconsin was shall we say stormy, who had a nasty divorce, and recently
ended a federal prison term for letters sent to several judges and
lawyers. Whether these misfortunes were due to his research or because he
has a personality which has an elective affinity to his preferred subject
matter I would not venture to guess. His homepage is
http://sonic.net/maledicta.
A word for indecency not yet discussed in this list is graamya, M.W. "used
or produced in a village... rustic, vulgar (speech) (Vamana,
Kavyalankaravrtti, 2.1.4...." The obvious opposite for it is sabhya
"being in an assembly-hall or meeting-room, belonging to or fit for an
assembly or court, suitable to good society, courteous, polite, refined,
civilized, not vulgar, decorous (as speech)."
Allen W. Thrasher
The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Nov 4 11:10:34 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 11:10:34 +0000
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026695.23782.1187983151272687453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Bob,
Alankara writers say one shouldn't use the "y" word in polite poems, just
as we would talk about not using the "f" word. The root in question is,
of course, yabh, which has very ancient cognates in inscriptional Greek (I
am grateful to conversations with Vit Bubenik in the late 1970s for this
information). I'm afraid I can't give you text references.
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw Mon Nov 4 05:11:04 1996
From: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw (Miroslav Rozehnal)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 13:11:04 +0800
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026690.23782.6026730986182399314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote:
> The y-root is the equivalent of the f-word. Otherwise there are no taboo
> words I can think of, indeed one of the oddities of Sanskrit is that the
> vocabulary for sexual parts or things has no particular distinction into
> the obscene, the neutral, the euphuistic, the medical, etc.; the words are
> unmarked that way.
Well, if I remember well, in the Vinaya of the Pali Canon it is said
(somewhere; sorry I do not have the refference) that it is not allowable
for monks to address each other in terms like "you penis", "you vagina" etc.
Maybe these could have been marked as "dirty words" at that time.
Hope it helps,
M. Rozehnal
-----------------------------------------
Miroslav Rozehnal
Mandarin Training Center
National Taiwan Normal University
Taipei
Taiwan, R.O.C.
E-mail: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw
see: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/e-cbs.htm
From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Mon Nov 4 19:20:53 1996
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 13:20:53 -0600
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026706.23782.13447423616799767271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Anand Venkt Raman wrote:
> >lack of dirty words. Are there dirty
> >words in Esperanto? -- or in ASL
> >(American Sign Language)?
>
> I can think of at least one in American Sign Language (As far as I know
> it is an american contribution to motor driving etiqutette) :-)
>
> :-)
In the film _Mr. Holland's Opus_ Mr. Holland's son gives him the asshole
sign. He doesn't understand it, so his wife translates it for him.
Thanks to all for your help in this sticky matter.
Gratefully,
Bob Hueckstedt
Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies
fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797
From thompson at jlc.net Mon Nov 4 19:00:20 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 15:00:20 -0400
Subject: Syntax of `yabh'
Message-ID: <161227026710.23782.3317144576826154119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>The recent discussion has reminded of a question I had, but never tried
>to answer: Datupathas specify `yabh' to be parasmaipada. I vaguely
>remember the line from asvamedha banter to be `na me kascana yabhate',
>where it was not clear if `me = mama' or `= mahyam'. Does anybody know
>the case that `yabh' takes?
>
>Thanks
>-Nath
In the passages that I'm familiar with yabh- is parasmaipada:
TS 7.4.19.2: na' mA yabhati ka'Z cana'
Ap.Zr.S. 20.18.4: na me yabhati kaZ cana
On the one hand taking mA, on the other taking me, its syntax is ambiguous.
But I don't have access to all passages.
Best,
George
From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE Mon Nov 4 14:28:23 1996
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 15:28:23 +0100
Subject: Req: "dirty" words in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026701.23782.116506348389877878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A few remarks:
1.) With ref. to the message of D. Wujastyk:
A very clear statement is found in daNDin kaavyAAdarza 1, 65:
zabde pi graamyataastyeva saa sabhyetarakiirtanaat,
yathaa yakaaraadi padaM ratyutsava niruupaNe.
And daNDIn adds (kaavyaad. I, 66-67) that also constructions which
actually don t contain indecent expressions are "graamya" if they could
be misinterpreted, as e.g. "yaa bhavataH priyaa" (which could be taken as
"yaabhavataH").
2.) For a definition of what is "dirty", or rather what is *considered*
"dirty" (and here also the question is: whether already by the
speaker/writer? or only by the listener/reader?) it is interesting to
note daNDIn s terminology: graamya, graamyataa, sabhyetara - which points
clearly to a deviation from high-style language (courtly language - in
the literary sense of: language used at the king s court, "hoefisch" in
german - and maybe also ritual language) and points to the vernacular.
In some parts of vedic prose (UpaniSad-, BraahmaNa-literature) some
dialogues which seem to be very near to vernacular language can be found
(I don t have the references here, but I could dig them out in a few days
time).
3.)Concerning the question of whether a statement/an expression itself is
dirty or only a possible interpretation of that statement , and with
reference to the message of G.J.Hausmann:
In modern Tamil, as G.J.Hausmann also stated, many words and expressions
which in standard language / high-style language carry an entirely
neutral meaning, may have a "dirty" connotation if used on a more
vernacular level, e.g. "mayir" lit. "hair" (vernac. "pubic hair");
"cinna viiTu" lit. "a small house" (vernac. denoting a "kept woman"),
and many more so.
Indian literature abounds in "zleSa", up to modern times: many modern
film-songs in tamil (and surely in other Indian languages, too) are full
of double-meanings which always point into a clear direction ...
4.)To come back to daNDin: why do we discuss only "dirty" words in that
specific sense?
daNDin (kaavyaadarza I, 95 ff.) defines also words like "spitting" etc.
as "graamya", if used in a direct sense (e.g.: niHSThIvati vadhuuH "the
woman spits..."), while they might be considered beautiful if used in an
indirect, rhetorical, sense (cf. kaavyaadarsha I, 96).
-- it s already much too long, so I stop here. Greetings, Ulrike.
From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 4 21:22:57 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 96 16:22:57 -0500
Subject: Syntax of `yabh'
Message-ID: <161227026712.23782.11352613300803404587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I think there is no grammatical answer to this question, but there
may be other answers, "in the heat of things" as they say. Consider the
Kaama"saastra warning : raticakre prav.rtte tu na "saastram na ca
"saastri.na.h. Our Kaama"saastra experts on the list may remember the
source of this quotation. So, even if it is a dead horse ...
Another consideration is the distinction between aar.sa and
anaar.sa usage of Sanskrit. The banter comes from a layer of Sanskrit
which, if it stands for women's Sanskrit, would be an interesting register
of non-standard Sanskrit.
Madhav Deshpande
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote:
>
> The recent discussion has reminded of a question I had, but never tried
> to answer: Datupathas specify `yabh' to be parasmaipada. I vaguely
> remember the line from asvamedha banter to be `na me kascana yabhate',
> where it was not clear if `me = mama' or `= mahyam'. Does anybody know
> the case that `yabh' takes?
>
> Thanks
> -Nath
>
>
>
From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu Tue Nov 5 14:22:27 1996
From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 07:22:27 -0700
Subject: Information request
Message-ID: <161227026718.23782.6881200052105131129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Girish:
_Self Realization in Kashmir Shaivism_ is listed in the SUNY catalogue I
received in the mail last week.
Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts
Janpath
New Delhi 110 001
phone: 384901
Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan, Member Secretary
kapila at ignca.ernet.in
I hope this helps.
Bruce M. Sullivan
Northern Arizona U.
From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Tue Nov 5 07:45:39 1996
From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 08:45:39 +0100
Subject: Kaamazaastra reference
Message-ID: <161227026714.23782.16111186250116284864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>From: Madhav Deshpande
>To: Members of the list
>Subject: Re: Syntax of `yabh'
> I think there is no grammatical answer to this question, but there
>may be other answers, "in the heat of things" as they say. Consider the
>Kaama"saastra warning : raticakre prav.rtte tu na "saastram na ca
>"saastri.na.h. Our Kaama"saastra experts on the list may remember the
>source of this quotation. So, even if it is a dead horse ...
[...]
Quotation reference :
vaatsyaayana kaamasuutra 2.2.31
zaastraaNaaM viSayas taavad yaavan manda-rasaa naraaH.
raticakre-pravRtte tu naiva zaastraM na ca kramaH..
Best wishes,
J.Fezas
(URA 1058 CNRS - Universit? Paris III)
prabhavanti yato lokaaH pralayaM yaanti yena ca.
saMsaara-vartma vivRtaM kaH pidhaatuM tad iizvaraH..
(Somadeva, KathaaSaritSaagara 6.2.182)
From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue Nov 5 17:10:29 1996
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 11:10:29 -0600
Subject: How to reach . . .
Message-ID: <161227026722.23782.1799240980988788868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
If I could kindly ask if anyone knows e-mail or other means to reach the
following individuals:
Prof. Kashyap Prof. Sadagopan
Purdue University & IIM Bangalore
As ever,
TYKIA ______________________________________________
| *****************************************|
| * John Robert Gardner *|
| * Obermann Center for Advanced Studies *|
| * University of Iowa *|
| * http://www.uiowa.edu/~obermann/ *|
| *****************************************|
-----------------------------------------------
From kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu Tue Nov 5 16:43:39 1996
From: kms5f at faraday.clas.virginia.edu (Kerry Martin Skora)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: Information request
Message-ID: <161227026720.23782.1429968176725693641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Swami Lakshmanjoo's lectures and the two translations may be
found in the book you are looking for, _Self Realization_.
Kerry Martin Skora/Dept. of Religious Studies/University of
Virginia/kms5f at virginia.edu According to Girish Beeharry:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for the following book:
>
> Lakshman, Swami.
> Title: Self realization in Kashmir Shaivism : the oral teachings of
> Swami Lakshmanjoo / John Hughes ; foreword by Lance Nelson.
> Albany : State University of New York Press, c1994.
> Translated from Kashmiri.
>
> Is it still in print please? I haven't seen it in SUNY's catalogue on the Web.
>
> Does anyone know whether Swami Lakshmanjoo's 1965 lectures on 'Kundalini
> viGYAna rahasyam.' held at Benares Hindu University in 1965 have been published
> in India or elsewhere? I am also curious about his translations of
> bodhapanchadashikaa and paraapraaveshikaa. Have they been published too please?
>
> Does anyone know the postal/email address of the Indira Gandhi Centre of the
> Arts in New Delhi please?
>
> Many thanks beforehand for your help.
>
> Bye,
>
> Girish Beeharry
>
>
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue Nov 5 12:07:30 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 12:07:30 +0000
Subject: Information request
Message-ID: <161227026716.23782.17072360113373295031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
I am looking for the following book:
Lakshman, Swami.
Title: Self realization in Kashmir Shaivism : the oral teachings of
Swami Lakshmanjoo / John Hughes ; foreword by Lance Nelson.
Albany : State University of New York Press, c1994.
Translated from Kashmiri.
Is it still in print please? I haven't seen it in SUNY's catalogue on the Web.
Does anyone know whether Swami Lakshmanjoo's 1965 lectures on 'Kundalini
viGYAna rahasyam.' held at Benares Hindu University in 1965 have been published
in India or elsewhere? I am also curious about his translations of
bodhapanchadashikaa and paraapraaveshikaa. Have they been published too please?
Does anyone know the postal/email address of the Indira Gandhi Centre of the
Arts in New Delhi please?
Many thanks beforehand for your help.
Bye,
Girish Beeharry
From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Wed Nov 6 02:00:10 1996
From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 21:00:10 -0500
Subject: on yabh
Message-ID: <161227026726.23782.14697286369708541977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
No one has mentioned, as far as I recall, Hoffman's article on YABH.
Vedisch yabh, in Aufsaetze, Vol. II (Wiesbaden 1976) p. 570-575
Carlos Lopez
Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies
Harvard University
From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Tue Nov 5 21:49:06 1996
From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 22:49:06 +0100
Subject: address request
Message-ID: <161227026724.23782.8451864730994441966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On 2 Nov reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu wrote:
May I get help regarding how to contact Jan Houben?
Any e-mail? Anby other way?
Thank you so much.
Best wishes,
Beatrice
*****
my email-address is:
jhouben at rullet.LeidenUniv.NL
but it will be not in use from 18 November 1996 till end March 1997;
then I may be contacted through the address:
Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute,
Pune 411004 --- India.
greetings,
Jan E.M. Houben
Kern Institute, University Leiden,
P.O. Box 9515,
2300 RA Leiden.
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Wed Nov 6 04:50:52 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 23:50:52 -0500
Subject: DOWRY CONF. II
Message-ID: <161227026728.23782.3108154541368047774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Indology members (and all others interested) residing in New England
(and beyond) are cordially invited to
THE SECOND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON
DOWRY AND BRIDE-BURNING IN INDIA
November 22-24, 1996
at Emerson Hall, Harvard University
It is feared that in until the end of this decade another 25,000 newly
married women will be burnt to death in India by their in-laws over dowry
disputes. According to the Home Ministry, Govt. of India, the number of
dowry deaths was 4,277 in 1993 and 5,817 in 1994. The unofficial numbers
are much higher, and they are rising every year. The practice has by now
spread to neighboring countries and to the UK, and related occurences are
reported from the US, too.
After delineating the problem and indicating some approaches to possible
solutions last year, this meeting will be of workshop style to discuss
future avenues, activities and procedures. A third conference is planned
to take place next year in India or England.
Registration: Saturday, November 22, 7 p.m., Emerson Hall 101,
Harvard University. No registration fee.
Begin: Saturday Nov. 22, at 7:30 p.m.
For further information, please contact:
Prof. M. Witzel Mr. H. B. Thakur
Chair, Committee on Chair, Board of Directors
South Asian Studies Internat. Society Against
Harvard University Bride Burning in India, Inc.
Conference Office: 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA
Phone: 617-496-8570 (M. Witzel)
508-546-7354 (H. Thakur)
Fax: 508-646-6981
Mailing address: P.O.Box 8766, Salem, MA 01971, USA
Sponsored by:
Committee on International Society
South Asian Studies Against Dowry and
Harvard University Bride Burning in India
==============================================================================
Details to follow; watch also www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Nov 6 20:53:10 1996
From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 15:53:10 -0500
Subject: Jaataka reference
Message-ID: <161227026730.23782.16577827267734550027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Would someone with a copy of the PTS Jaataka text do me a quick favor? On
page 96 of volume II appears the word muddikaapaanam, according to Laufer's
reference in a study of wine etc. Would someone be so kind as to look up the
*line number* of the reference for me? Thank you!
Appreciatively,
Jonathan Silk
From efb3 at columbia.edu Wed Nov 6 22:52:52 1996
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 17:52:52 -0500
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026735.23782.2711134859679811851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I am doing research involving the antiquity of the Veda. Can any one
refer me to sources, over the last century or more, that have contributed
to establishing the commonly assigned date of circa 1200 BCE (apart from
Max Muller's assignment of 200 year periods for the various texts back
dated from the beginning of the Buddhist period, which he later
acknowledged was totally arbitrary)? Is there any material that has
contested these dates (apart from Winternitz)? Most especially, is there
any more recent material discussing the problems of Vedic dating (by which
I intend the whole corpus including Braahma.nas etc.)? Any references at
all would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edwin Bryant Columbia
University.
From tatelman at total.net Thu Nov 7 01:22:56 1996
From: tatelman at total.net (tatelman at total.net)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: Jaataka reference
Message-ID: <161227026736.23782.5472029851487639787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Jonathon Silk writes:
>Would someone with a copy of the PTS Jaataka text do me a quick favor? On
>page 96 of volume II appears the word muddikaapaanam, according to Laufer's
>reference in a study of wine etc. Would someone be so kind as to look up the
>*line number* of the reference for me? Thank you!
"Muddikapaanam (not -kaapaanam) appears at Jaataka, vol. II, p. 96, ll. 19-20.
Regards,
Joel Tatelman
Joel Tatelman
#2-293A Roncesvalles Ave.,
Toronto, Ontario,
CANADA M6R 2M3.
Tel.: (416) 535-4997
From minding at world.std.com Thu Nov 7 10:43:46 1996
From: minding at world.std.com (George Fowler)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 05:43:46 -0500
Subject: Jaataka reference
Message-ID: <161227026732.23782.12869595631434007137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello,
Does anyone know of software that adds Sanskrit diacritics to Word For
Windows (6.0) documents?
Thanks,
George Fowler
--
email: minding at world.std.com
From zysk at is2.nyu.edu Thu Nov 7 12:24:59 1996
From: zysk at is2.nyu.edu (Kenneth G. Zysk)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 07:24:59 -0500
Subject: Updating
Message-ID: <161227026740.23782.5462998836706389840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Technology keeps putting me out of date. I recently obtained a computer
that has Windows 95 and Microsoft Office 7.0 (professional) pre-intalled.
I am slowly making the transition from an old Dos system (by old I mean
only 5 years), and was told by the technical help people (I have their
number on my automatic dial) that I should not attempt to install any
program that is not specifically setup for Windows 95. Can anyone help me
in obtaining a program with Sanskrit diacritics that will work on my new
system? Many thanks, Ken Zysk
From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Thu Nov 7 08:25:03 1996
From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 09:25:03 +0100
Subject: TOCs IESHR and SocSci
Message-ID: <161227026738.23782.13630859772136309343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear members,
As subsciber to the SOUTH-ASIA-STUDIES list
I received the forwarded message
of Philip McEldowney, University of Virginia library with TOCs of _The
Indian Economic and Social History Review_ and _SOCIAL SCIENTIST_ (both
covering the history of SA). It appears that the University of Virginia
library's homepage
contains
links to the TOCs of these journals (incl. book reviews) which are updated
currently (along with other interesting links). I visited the homepage. It
is great!
My christmas present wish for INDOLOGY: that some institution would attempt
something similar with regard to indological journals! (There are probably
some obstacles connected with this apart from the work, like copyrights etc,
but these might not be insurmountable).
Regards
Mikael Aktor, Dpt. of History of Religions, University of Copenhagen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>X-Sender: tmc407 at coombs.anu.edu.au
>Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:47:36 +1000
>To: south-asia-studies-l at postbox.anu.edu.au
>From: T.Matthew Ciolek
>Subject: TOCs IESHR and SocSci
>Sender: owner-south-asia-studies-l at coombs.anu.edu.au
>Reply-To: south-asia-studies-l at coombs.anu.edu.au
>
>---------------- forwarded message ----------------------
>
> Below are the Table of Contents for the Indian Economic and
>Social History Review (Jan. 1996), and for Social Scientist (Jly-Sp
>1995), which are also available on the Web sites listed below.
>
>
>*****The Indian Economic and Social History Review
>Volume XXXIII Number 1 January-March 1996
>
> http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia
> /SAserials/IESHR/ieshr.html
>
>If you have access to the UnCover article delivery service, the main
>articles (but NOT the book reviews) are listed and can be ordered through
>UnCover.
>
>*****SOCIAL SCIENTIST V.23:No.7-9
>July-Sept. 1995 #266-268
>
>This same table of contents is on the Web at
>
> http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia
> /SAserials/SocSci/socSci.html
>
>[NOTE: While the UnCover article delivery service lists the SOCIAL
>SCIENTIST, UnCover has the main articles (NOT the Book Reviews) available
>to order, but only for the years 1989 through 1992. Articles since 1992
>are not listed at present.]
>
>===================================================================
>The Indian Economic and Social History Review
>Volume XXXIII Number 1 January-March 1996
>
>**ARTICLES**
>
>UPINDER SINGH/ Sanchi: The history of the patronage of an
>ancient Buddhist establishment, p. 1
>
>INDU AGNIHOTRI/ Ecology, land use and colonisation: The canal
>colonies of Punjab, p. 37
>
>MUSHTAQ A. KAW/ Famines in Kashmir, 1586 - 1819: The policy
>of the Mughal and Afghan rulers, p. 59
>
>MAHESH SHARMA/ Marginalisation and appropriation: Jogis,
>Brahmins and Sidh shrines, p. 73
>
>AYESHA JALAL/ Secularists, subalterns and the stigma of
>'communalism': Partition historiography revisited, p. 93
>
>
>**Book Reviews**
>
>Shahid Amin, Event, Metaphor, Memory, Chauri Chaura 1922-1992,
>reviewed by MAJID SIDDIQI, p. 105
>
>Brajadulal Chattopadhyaya, The Making of Early Medieval India,
>reviewed by RICHARD EATON, p. 106
>
>Fatima da Silva Gracias, Health and Hygiene in Colonial Goa
>(1510-1961), reviewed by MARIA DOSSAL, p. 108
>
>Arun Mukherjee, Crime and Public Disorder in Colonial Bengal
>1861-1912, reviewed by JOYA CHATTERJI, p. 111
>
>G. Thimmaiah, Power Politics and Social Justice: Backward Castes in
>Karnataka, reviewed by DHARMA KUMAR, p. 113
>===================================================================
>
>This same list is on the Web at
>
> http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia
> /SAserials/IESHR/ieshr.html
>
>If you have access to the UnCover article delivery service, the main
>articles (but NOT the book reviews) are listed and can be ordered through
>UnCover.
>
>=============================================================
>SOCIAL SCIENTIST V.23:No.7-9
>July-Sept. 1995 #266-268
>
>**ARTICLES**
>
>"Socialism and the Re-Making of Man: A Far Cry? Yet
>the Prime Proud Quest." HIREN MUKERJEE, p. 3
>
>"Capitalism in History." IRFAN HABIB, p. 15
>
>"Gender, Body and Everyday Life." MEENAKSHI
>THAPAN, p. 32
>
>"Hegemony and the National Mental Health Programme:
>A Conceptual Preface ." PARTHASARATHI MONDAL, p. 59
>
>
>**NOTE: "For a Balanced Approach on Gandhi and the
>National Movement." E.M.S. NAMBOODIRIPAD, p. 73
>
>
>**REVIEW ARTICLES.
>"Third World Underdevelopment and International
>Relations." Reviewer - RAJEN HARSHE, p. 75.
>Book - Robert H. Jackson. Quasi-States; Sovereignty,
>International Relations and the Third World,
>Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1993, pp. 240,
>L 12.95 paperback edition.
>
>"Intellectual Imbroglio and the Great Divide."
>Reviewer - BIDYUT CHAKRABARTY, p. 91.
>Book - Mushirul Hasan (ed.). India's Partition: process, strategy
>and mobilisation, Oxford University Press, Delhi,
>1993, p. 426, Rs. 390.00.
>
>"The Sub-Continent: Academic analysis." Reviewer -
>RAJEEV DHAVAN, 101.
>Books - Paula R. Newberg. Judging the State: Courts and
>Constitutional Politics in Pakistan, Cambridge
>University Press, Indian Edition by Foundation in Delhi, 1995,
>Indian prices Rs. 375.00.
>Ayesha Jalal. Democracy and Authoritarianism in South
>Asia: A Comparative and Historical Perspective,
>Cambridge University Press, Indian edition by
>Foundation, Delhi, 1995, pp. 295 Indian price, Rs. 385.00.
>
>"From Pax Americana to Pox American." Reviewer -
>VINAY LAL, p. 106.
>Book - David J. Brown and Robert Merrill, eds. Violent
>Persuasions: The Politics and Imagery of Terrorism. Bay Press,
>Settle, 1993, pp. 298, $18.95, paperback.
>
>"Women and Employment in Rural India." Reviewer -
>SHAKTI KAK, p. 114.
>Book - Jeemol Unni. Women's Participation in
>Indian Agriculture, Oxford & IBH Publishing
>Co. Pvt. Ltd., 1992. pp. 108.
>
>=============================================================
>
>This same table of contents is on the Web at
>
> http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia
> /SAserials/SocSci/socSci.html
>
>[NOTE: While the UnCover article delivery service lists the SOCIAL
>SCIENTIST, UnCover has the main articles (NOT the Book Reviews) available
>to order, but only for the years 1989 through 1992. Articles since 1992
>are not listed at present.]
>
>--Philip McEldowney, University of Virginia library
>
>
>---------------- forwarded message ----------------------
>
>
>-==================================================-
>Dr T. Matthew CIOLEK tmciolek at coombs.anu.edu.au
>ANU Social Sciences Information Systems Administrator,
>Coombs Computing Unit, Research School of Social Sciences,
> http://coombs.anu.edu.au/CoombsHome.html
> http://coombs.anu.edu.au/WWWVL-AsianStudies.html
>Australian National University, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia
>ph +61 (0)6 249 0110 fax: +61 (0)6 257 1893
>-=================================================-
>
>
>
>
From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Thu Nov 7 17:16:58 1996
From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 11:16:58 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit on Windows95
Message-ID: <161227026747.23782.15694522221009676726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Technology keeps putting me out of date. I recently obtained a computer
>that has Windows 95 and Microsoft Office 7.0 (professional) pre-intalled.
I> am slowly making the transition from an old Dos system (by old I mean
>only 5 years), and was told by the technical help people (I have their
>number on my automatic dial) that I should not attempt to install any
>program that is not specifically setup for Windows 95. Can anyone help me
>in obtaining a program with Sanskrit diacritics that will work on my new
>system? Many thanks, Ken Zysk
First of all it is complete nonsense that Windows 95 will not run old
software. In fact, I have dozens of old programs that run better on Winows95
than they did on Win3.1 or DOS. Also, I build/sell computers and have
installed Windows 95 on several dozen systems. There definitely are some
hardware compatibility problems, but most seem to have gone away over the last
year. Once the hardware is up and running, software almost always works.
In terms of a better program for Sanskrit, both roman and Devanagri fonts,
Ralph Bunker and Peter Freund are working on software and fonts that have
great promise, and will run on several platforms. I am very impressed by beta
version but don't know how soon they will want to release to the public. You
can contact them directly: ralphbunker at msn.com or pfreund at mum.edu.
Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods!
ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From sani at ling.unipi.it Thu Nov 7 14:18:11 1996
From: sani at ling.unipi.it (Saverio Sani)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 15:18:11 +0100
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026742.23782.8332435152092513702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 23.09 06/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
>I am doing research involving the antiquity of the Veda. Can any one
>refer me to sources, over the last century or more, that have contributed
>to establishing the commonly assigned date of circa 1200 BCE (apart from
>Max Muller's assignment of 200 year periods for the various texts back
>dated from the beginning of the Buddhist period, which he later
>acknowledged was totally arbitrary)? Is there any material that has
>contested these dates (apart from Winternitz)? Most especially, is there
>any more recent material discussing the problems of Vedic dating (by which
>I intend the whole corpus including Braahma.nas etc.)? Any references at
>all would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edwin Bryant Columbia
>University.
See Gonda, Vedic Literature (edit. Otto Harrassowitz)
=============================================================================
| Prof. Saverio Sani |
|Dipartimento di Scienze Glottoetnologiche Dipartimento di Linguistica|
|Universita' di Genova Universita' di Pisa |
|Via Balbi 4 Via S.Maria 36 |
|16126 GENOVA 56126 PISA |
|tel 010-2099714, fax 010-2095965 tel 050-24773, fax 050-44100
| e-mail: sani at ling.unipi.it |
=============================================================================
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Nov 7 15:44:53 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 15:44:53 +0000
Subject: Updating
Message-ID: <161227026744.23782.14843416218714326544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Kenneth G. Zysk wrote:
> Can anyone help me
> in obtaining a program with Sanskrit diacritics that will work on my new
> system? Many thanks, Ken Zysk
If you log on to the INDOLOGY web site,
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html
and choose the "INDOLOGY supplementary files" area, and then "software",
you will find two professional fonts which contain most of what you need
to type Sanskrit within MS Word for Windows (any windows version).
Choose the "TrueType" versions, i.e., the ones with TTF in the name.
The two fonts are Bistream Charter and Utopia, which differe slightly
in design. Each one includes normal, bold, italic, and bold italic.
You will need to unzip the package when you have transferred the file
to your pc. So you will need one of the many free unzip packages.
Then you will need to install the font. This is something that should be
explained in your Windows manual.
Finally, you will want to use the "insert symbol" menu in Word to set up
some comfortable keystroke macros for typing (I use control+a,i,u etc. to
get a+macron, etc, and alt+a,i,u etc. to get the capital letter
versions).
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From bpj at netg.se Thu Nov 7 16:55:07 1996
From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 18:55:07 +0200
Subject: Jaataka reference
Message-ID: <161227026749.23782.16962285452214729438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 22:53 6.11.1996 +0000, George Fowler wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Does anyone know of software that adds Sanskrit diacritics to Word For
>Windows (6.0) documents?
>
>Thanks,
>George Fowler
>--
>email: minding at world.std.com
I could make such a set of fonts according to your wishes, though not until
spring. In the meantime check out
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/
Regards
B.Philip Jonsson
Aphobon ho theos -- Anaistheton ho thanatos
To agathon eukteton -- To deinon euekkartereton
(Diogenes of Oinoanda -- not the one in the amphora!)
Gomba lamai 'sjaylkjiyl | 'Yiyla tsjargyu mi'duq |
'Magom` dsjambai 'sjaylray` | 'Yiyla khorkhor dsjaydsjung ||
(Sang'yang Gjatso -- Dalai Lama VI)
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth"
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Fri Nov 8 00:36:00 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 19:36:00 -0500
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026752.23782.10292868713856776406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A brief summary of the data available to establish a date for the Rgveda in:
The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia, ed. G. Erdosy, p. 97 sq. (c.
1500/1200 B.C.)
Some more dates for other Vedic texts on p. 98.
Relative chronology for the other Vedic texts on pp. 95-97.
cf. also, C. Caillat (ed.) Dialectes dans les litteratures indo-aryennes.
Actes du Colloque International ....16-18 Septembre 1986. Paris (College
de France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne) 1989, pp. 97-264
cf. also earlier: K. Mylius, Zur absoluten Datierung der mittelvedischen
Literatur, Neue Indienkunde, ed. H. Kruger. Berlin 1970, 421-431.
Max Mueller simply guessed, but he guessed well.
MW>
From Vvmurthy at aol.com Fri Nov 8 00:36:09 1996
From: Vvmurthy at aol.com (Vvmurthy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 19:36:09 -0500
Subject: Visit to AKSHARAM after World Sanskrit Conference
Message-ID: <161227026754.23782.8137635042338845450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
After the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore, a visit to AKSHARAM
the , center for various Sanskrit activities has been arranged. Sri Krishna
Shastry, All India coordinator for
'Sanskrita Bharati' would explain about the movement to revive Sanskrit.
If you have plans to stay there and learn Sanskrit, details are given below.
Here is a write up about Aksharam. If you would like to visit AKSHARAM
or need more information,
please send an email to sanskrit at hindunet.org
or Call Shivram at (408) 446-5485
AKSHARAM - The hub of Sanskrit activities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Aksharam", 8th Cross, II Phase, Girinagar, Bangalore 560 085 INDIA
Ph: (+91)-80-6613052 Fax: (+91)-80-6617276
"Aksharam", the international center of 'Sanskrita Bharathi' is located at
Bangalore, the garden city of India. It is a huge three-storied building
hosting several projects of Sanskrita Bharathi. It is also a training
and boarding center for "Sanskritavratis" (volunteers who have taken
Sanskrit service as their life mission). 'Sanskrita Bharati' is a movement
to bring back Sanskrit to daily life and make it available to all.
Activities at Aksharam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Sanskrit through Correspondence
An unique way to teach Sanskrit through correspondence, divided into
four parts. The course starts from basics and by the end of fourth part,
you will have a good command over the language to study any text on your
own. Each stage is of six months duration.
2. Publication and Sales Unit of Sanskrita Bharathi
More than 30 books and 7 audio cassettes most relevant to the
conversational aspects of Sanskrit, and to improve language skills
has been published from here.
Also, a project is currently underway to produce video programs to teach
basic language and conversation.
3. Sambhaashana Sandeshah - A Sanskrit monthly magazine
A magazine in simple Sanskrit with sections on news, current affairs,
short stories, crosswords, word power, stories for children etc.
4. Sanskrita Balakendra
The center for training the children on the essential aspects of Sanskrit
and our cultural heritage. It's a pleasure to see small children converse
in Sanskrit in the campus.
Few Regular Programs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
These programs are basically conducted for local residents.
- Ten-day Speak Sanskrit Courses
- Post-Ten-Day Advanced Training Courses
- Training/Workshop for teachers in Sanskrit
- Summer camps for High-school students
- Yoga Camps
The Campus
~~~~~~~~~~
Enter AKSHARAM, and you will be pleasantly surprised to hear everyone
in the campus speaking Sanskrit. Office transaction takes place in Sanskrit.
It is a delightful sight to watch the kids engaged in verbal duel in
Sanskrit, while playing. Entire atmosphere breathes Sanskrit.
Following are some of the facilities at Campus --
- A well-equipped library containing more than thousand Sanskrit
reference books, including palmleaf volumes
- Computers with Sanskrit DTP capability and E-mail access
- Separate dormatories for male and female volunteers
- Residential quarters for Sanskrit families (everyone in the
family is serving for Sanskrit cause)
- In-house kitchen and dining hall
- Guest rooms
Since the campus is run by donations and service is the main goal,
only basic facilities are provided for the inmates. The volunteers
working here do not receive any salary, except for a meager amount
to manage the basic needs.
The volunteers take part in different projects at Aksharam. Apart from these,
they will be touring various parts of the country to propagate Sanskrit.
At any time, there will be around 15 female volunteers and 15 male volunteers
along with three Sanskrit families. The total number will be more than 75
during training camps.
Early morning prayers, common meals, sharing campus maintenance work,
complete dedication in the work assigned, continuous guidence and
counselling by elders -- the life of a volunteer is highly disciplined.
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Nov 8 01:16:13 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 20:16:13 -0500
Subject: pari w/acc = towards?
Message-ID: <161227026756.23782.12453420763740847698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I am trying to find an example (with context) where pari is used a
Karmapravacaniiya with accusative meaning `towards'.
Almost all dictionaries I consulted (Shorter St. Peterburg,
Monier-Williams, Mcdonnel, Apte, Surya Kanta) state that `pari' used with
accusative means `towards'. But none of them cite any example where
the context requires this meaning.
Monier-Williams refers to the Paninean sutra `lak.sa.netthambhuuta...'
to support this meaning. I have a problem with this: If valid, `lak.sa.na'
should mean `towards' even for `anu' mentioned in this sutra. But
`anur lak.sa.ne' presumably assigns the meaning `after' to anu. Then the
seperate mention of `anur la.k.sa.ne' can be justified simply by refering
to the different meanings. Yet Patanjali (and by implication, Katyayana)
does not do so, preferring instead to argue that without the double
mention, `hetau [tritiiyaa]' would override `karmapravacaniiyayukte
[dvitiiyaa]'. This, to me, sugests that `lak.sa.na' must be taken in
its general sense. Hence my question.
P.S. `pari' can be given its etymological sense of `bypassing'/`beyond'
in several instances (paryadhyayana/paribhuu/divasas pari etc).
It is `towards' (like `prati' or `abhi') that I find surprising.
Thanks in advance
-Nath
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Nov 8 14:58:59 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 09:58:59 -0500
Subject: pari w/acc = towards?
Message-ID: <161227026759.23782.17512049315385454791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
[forwarded to the list at Domonik's request.]
I'm at home sick today, without access to books, but my first instinct
with questions like this is to turn to the superb book _Sanskrit Syntax_
by Speyer. One of my all-time favourite Sanksrit grammar books, and I
would expect him to have addressed your query.
Does anyone on INDOLOGY descend from Speyer's paramparaa? On the evidence
of the above book, he was an extremely sensitive reader of Sanskrit texts,
with a great working knowledge of Panini, and must have been a very
interesting teacher.
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England.
FAX +44-171-611-8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html
------------
My [Nath's] remark: I find Speyer quite helpful. But, not in this particular
case. In his discussion of Panini 1.4.90 (in connection with abhi and
pari), Speyer gives to the meaning of around/about to pari, abhi, anu and
prati. But `prati = about' isless credible than `pari = towards'. [But while
discussing prati, Speyer assigns the meaning `towards' to prati.]
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Nov 8 10:34:15 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 11:34:15 +0100
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026757.23782.24497274088806510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
May I ask the list members for some advice?
I would like to create a collection of CDs with Indian music (mostly
classical), but Oslo is not exactly crammed with music shops that offer a
good selection. I am therefore interested in finding a music shop abroad
that sells Indian music, and that could supply me by mail (I pay with my
credit card).
I am going to Paris next week, so if there is such a shop in Paris, please
let me know!
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From srini at engin.umich.edu Fri Nov 8 17:33:37 1996
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 12:33:37 -0500
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026761.23782.18273147439806760770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In the US, there are quite a few stores through which
you could mail order these CDs... the prices of CDs
seems to be lower, in general, than neighboring Canada
or what I remember seeing in London while on transit...
taking into account the currency exchange rates.
Check out some of these places on the Web like
http://www.webcom.com/raag
http://www.pacificnet.net/~indiamusic
A ***very*** popular store is Shrimati's at Berkeley,
USA... their address is
Shrimati's
2011 University Ave, Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone:(510) 548-6220 Tu through Su 11am-6pm
Fax:(510) 548-1838
Please look at this page
http://www.cs.jhu.edu./~kumar/other_stuff/music/music_stores.txt
for more info.
-Srini.
From frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu Fri Nov 8 23:28:42 1996
From: frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu (frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 18:28:42 -0500
Subject: A request
Message-ID: <161227026765.23782.2203287777291744515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indology Members:
I study Sanskrit and have a life-long interest in classical India
and the Vedic texts. I enjoy and learn from the discussions that generate
in this conference. I would benefit even more if I could crack the code
you use to write the Sanskrit in roman script without the diacritics, but I
am a beginner in the language. Can somebody help me out with this?
Appreciatively,
Francisco Rocco
From frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu Fri Nov 8 23:42:49 1996
From: frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu (frr2897 at garnet.acns.fsu.edu)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 18:42:49 -0500
Subject: Uniform transliteration of Brahmic scripts
Message-ID: <161227026768.23782.13041104538741228105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Thank you very much Tony.
With regards,
Francisco
From everson at indigo.ie Fri Nov 8 18:06:23 1996
From: everson at indigo.ie (Michael Everson)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 19:06:23 +0100
Subject: Pali
Message-ID: <161227026763.23782.1231293465925026334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Readers of INDOLOGY with an interest in Buddhism and Pali grammar may be
interested in a paper I wrote some time ago:
Some remarks on conceptualization and transcendent experience in the
Therav?da tradition, with two notes on translation
http://www.indigo.ie/egt/misc/vitakka.html
Svasti,
Michael Everson
>???From 101621.104 at CompuServe.COM 08 96 Nov EST 15:56:05
Date: 08 Nov 96 15:56:05 EST
From: Anthony P Stone <101621.104 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Uniform transliteration of Brahmic scripts
After this summer's discussion on this list and with the expectation of
further discussion at Bangalore in January (at which I can't be present),
here is a _brief_ presentation of four *tentative* transliteration
schemes, for different purposes. They are largely based on existing
schemes. I am grateful to Leslaw Borowski, P D ("Das") Menon, and
Dominik Wujaskyk for input of various sorts; the shortcomings of the
schemes are my own.
= Draft 0.2 dated Nov 8, 1996 =
SCRIPTS covered: Assamese, Bengali, Devanagari (+ extensions), Grantha,
Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Malayalam, Oriya, Tamil, Telugu.
The question of what belongs to what script is not considered in detail.
Transliteration SCHEMES:
P. for print, using the full resources of fonts/type;
Computer storage using 7-bit coding (ISO/IEC 10646, IRV):
C1. Case insensitive coding (stressing elegance);
C2. Case sensitive coding (stressing economy);
also variations for use on a typewriter.
NOTATION for Latin characters with diacritical marks: If L stands for any
Latin letter and A, B, C, D stand for any diacritics, the expression
L(A/B) denotes the letter L with diacritic A above and B below it, and
(given here for completeness) the expression scriptname L(A/B)[C/D]
denotes the form of L(A/B) in the script 'scriptname', with diacritic C
above and D below it; where mark A is to replace the dot of a dotted Latin
letter. (Superfluous elements may be omitted depending on context.)
Marks which cannot be typed in 7-bit ascii are:
o = small circle
ss = small semicircle open upwards [usual short vowel sign]
cb = candrabindu
at = acute accent
NOTES are at the end.
===
P: a a(-/)i i(-/) u u(-/) r(/o) r(-/o) l(/o) l(-/o) e(ss/) e ai o(ss/)
C1: a aa i ii u uu r` r# l` l# :e e ai :o
C2: a A i I u U r` R` l` L` e E ai o (1)
------
P: o au e(^/) o(^/) Mal half-u: u(ss/)
C1: o au ^e ^o :u
C2: O au ^e ^o (2) :u
------
visarga ardhavisarga jihvamuliya upadhmaniya Tam aytam
P: h(/.) h(./) h(/-) h(/..) k(/-)
C1: .h ;h _h :h _k
C2: H ;h _h :h (3) K (4)
------
anusvara anunasika Tel ardhanusvara
P: m(./) m(cb/) n(-/)
C1: .m =m -n
C2: M =m -n
------
P: k kh g gh n(./)
C1: k kh g gh ;n
C2: k kh g gh G
------
P: c ch j jh n(~/)
C1: c ch j jh ~n
C2: c ch j jh J
------
P: t(/.) t(/.)h d(/.) d(/.)h n(/.) r(/.) r(/.)h l(/.)
C1: .t .th .d .dh .n .r .rh .l
C2: T Th D Dh N R Rh L (5)
------
P,C1,C2:
t th d dh n
p ph b bh m
y r l v (6)
------
P: y(/.) r(^/) s(at/) s(/.) s h
C1: .y ^r ;s .s s h
C2: Y (7) ^r (8) C S s h
------
Dravidian: velar fricative alveolars
P: z(/.) r(/-) n(/-)
C1: .z _r _n
C2: z _r _n
------
P: k(/.) k(/.)h g(/.) j(/.) p(/.)h
C1, C2: .k .kh .g .j .ph
------
P,C1,C2: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
------
Accents: Udatta, stress accent Svarita Anudatta
P: (over vowel) (at/) ('/) (`/)
C1, C2: (after vowel) / | \
------
Other signs in the original text:
avagraha, apostrophe omitted character
P: apostrophe mult. sign
C1,C2: ' X
------
Other signs not in the original text:
ambiguous vowel hyphen at end of line word abbreviated at
hiatus line break in original beginning or end
P: _ hyphen / (o/)
C1,C2: _ -- / -
===
VARIATIONS for use with a typewriter:
^ ~ ` | \ #
* ? ! % & $ (or pound sign or !!)
===
NOTES
(1):e, :o are the short Dravidian vowels.
(2)^e, ^o are 'new' Dev vowels, used (e.g.) for English words.
(3)jihvamulia and upadhmaniya each have old forms; ardhavisarga is an
old form of both (cf. F. Kittel, A Kannada-English dictionary, 1894).
(4)R. Caldwell distinguishes Tam aytam (velar fricative) from visarga.
(5)Dev .lh may be treated as a ligature, as its graphical form suggests.
(6)Ori has .l here and l later. Ben, Ori do not distinguish v from b,
but Ori has a separate v (pronounced /w/) for Urdu and English words.
(7)Ass, Ben, Ori.
(8)Mar reph.
Tony Stone
From conlon at u.washington.edu Sat Nov 9 22:27:49 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 96 14:27:49 -0800
Subject: H-ASIA: Kenneth W. Jones 1934-1996
Message-ID: <161227026770.23782.7324236965456869266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Colleagues:
I regret any inconvenience by cross-posting to Indology for those members
who also subscribe to H-ASIA. The following obituary was posted today.
Frank Conlon
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:48:18 -0800
From: Frank Conlon
To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA
Subject: H-ASIA: Kenneth W. Jones 1934-1996
H-ASIA
November 9, 1996
Kenneth W. Jones December 21, 1934 - September 22, 1996
*****************************************************************
As reported earlier on H-ASIA, Professor Kenneth W. Jones died in
Manhattan, Kansas on September 22, 1996 after an intense struggle
with cancer. A memorial service was held on Sunday, September 29
in Manhattan.
Ken Jones was one of the pillars of South Asian history in North
America. He pioneered critical and in-depth studies of religious
movements in colonial India, particularly in the region of the
Punjab. He achieved international recognition for his scholarly
studies of the Arya Samaj, and, prior to his final illness, had
been working on a study of the Hindu Sanatana Dharma movement.
After attending Stockton College for two years, Ken entered the
University of California at Berkeley, where he earned his
baccalaureate degree in 1958, his M.A. in 1959, and completed his
Ph.D, under the supervision of Thomas Metcalf in 1966. Ken Jones
joined the faculty of Kansas State University in 1965 and served
there with distinction throughout his career. Indeed, in 1989,
his long record of contributions as a scholar and teacher were
recognized when he was appointed as a University Distinguished
Professor. Among his other awards were grants from the American
Council of Learned Societies, the American Institute of Indian
Studies (for which in 1975-76 he was honored as the W. Norman
Brown Fellow) and the National Endowment for the Humanities.
At Kansas State, Ken introduced many students to South Asia,
through his survey courses on Indian history and Indian
civilization, his seminars on Indian nationalism and Gandhi, his
his course on the History of Hinduism. While he was an active
participant in the Kansas State South Asia Center, he also took a
leading role in teacher training, offering an advanced seminar on
Teaching of History in the Secondary Schools. His concern for
the quality of secondary education was furthered as director of
an NEH project "The Introduction of South Asian Studies into the
Elementary and Secondary Schools in Kansas, Colorado, Oklahoma
and Nebraska" in 1974-75.
Ken's scholarly contributions may be glimpsed in the short
bibliography of his works which follows. The impact of those
works may be underscored by the number of republished/reprinted
editions, particularly in the subcontinent itself. Perhaps
beginning with his studies under Wolfram Eberhard at Berkeley,
Ken consciously explored the historical evolution of religious
institutions and associations in colonial India. His study on
the Arya Samaj was widely cited and acclaimed, leading to his
invitation to write a volume in the New Cambridge History of
India in which he proposed to offer a survey of religious
movements throughout British India. That he had, by editorial
decision, to also accommodate social movements within the limits
of allocated pages, meant that the final work was broader is
coverage, but at the expense of further analysis of religious
organizations. It was his great pleasure to turn back to a study
of the self-styled orthodox "Sanatana dharma" movement of Punjabi
Hindus, a work still in progress at the time of his final
illness.
To scholars active in the Association for Asian Studies, the
American Academy of Religion, the American Institute of Indian
Studies and the South Asia Microform Project, Ken was a reliable
and positive contributor of ideas and of service, both formally
and informally. He was one of the founders, and participants
in, the the first of the regional studies organizations in North
America, the Research Committee on the Punjab.
Ken Jones will be remembered--and cited--for his many scholarly
contributions to the study of religious identity and politics of
India. For those who knew him, as colleagues and students, he
will also be fondly remembered for his penetrating mind and his
hall-mark manner which presented an appearance of a sort of quiet
exasperation at those who would obfuscate, combined with laconic
discourse, dry wit and, always, affirmative engagement with ideas.
We will long feel our loss for what Ken Jones contributed as a
scholar, and even more for what he represented as a human being.
Ken is survived by his wife Marguerite and his son Garth, and a
legion of admiring friends around the world. A memorial fund is
being established at the Department of History, Eisenhower Hall,
Kansas State University, Manhattan, Kansas 66506, to endow a
prize fund for modern Indian history.
Frank F. Conlon
University of Washington
Co-editor of H-ASIA
Publications by Kenneth W. Jones
Ed. note: I wish to thank Peter Knupfer of Kansas State University
for supplying much of the information that appears below. I apologize
for the absence of pagination details on a few of the entries.
Ken Jones had also written many book reviews, and I believe, had
submitted some essays for a forthcoming Encylopedia of Sikhism.
F.F.C.
1995 "The Arya Samaj in British India, 1875-1947" [revised ed.], in
Robert D. Baird, ed., _Religion in Modern India_. 3rd ed.
New Delhi: Manohar Publishers.
1995 "Politicized Hinduism: The Ideology and Program of the Hindu
Mahasabha," [revised ed.] in Robert D. Baird, ed., _Religion in
Modern India_. 3rd ed. New Delhi: Manohar Publishers.
1992 _Religious Controversy in British India: Dialogues in
South Asian Languages_ Kenneth W. Jones, Editor.
Albany: SUNY Press.
1991 "Hindu Leaders in British India: The Negative Component of
Communal Consciousness" _Indo-British Review_ 19 i:
57-72.
1989 _Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India:
Vol. III, Book 1 of New Cambridge History of India_
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
1988 "Socio-Religious Movements and Changing Gender Relationships
Among Hindus of British India," in James W. Bjorkman, ed.
_Fundamentalism, Revivalists and Violence in South Asia_
Riverdale, MD: The Riverdale Company.
1986 Five short articles in the _Encyclopedia of Asian History_, gen.
ed., A. T. Embree. New York: Charles Scribner and Sons for
the Asia Society.
1986 "Organized Hinduism in Delhi and New Delhi," in Robert E.
Frykenberg, ed., _Delhi Through the Ages: A festschrift in
honour of T. G. Percival Spear_. Delhi: Oxford University
Press.
1984 "Identity, Ideology and the Arya Samaj," in Peter Gaeffke
and David Utz, eds., _Identity and Division in Cults and
Sects in South Asia_ [Volume 1, _Proceedings of the South
Asia Seminar, 1980-81_]. Philadelphia: Department of South
Asian Regional Studies, University of Pennsylvania.
1981 "Religious Identity and the Indian Census," pp. 73-101 in N. G.
Barrier, ed., _The Census of British India: New Perspectives_.
New Delhi: Manohar Publications.
1981 "The Arya Samaj in British India, 1875-1947" pp. 27-54 in Robert
D. Baird, ed., _Religion in Modern India_. New Delhi: Manohar
Publications.
1981 "Politicized Hinduism: The Ideology and Program of the Hindu
Mahasabha," pp. 447-480 in Robert D. Baird, ed., _Religion in
Modern India_. New Delhi: Manohar Publications.
1979 "Social Change and Religious Movements in 19th-Century Punjab,"
pp. 1-16 in M. S. A. Rao, ed., _Social Movements in India_,
Vol. 2. New Delhi: Manohar Publications.
1976 _Arya Dharm: Hindu Consciousness in 19th-Century Punjab_.
Berkeley: University of California Press.
1975 _Sources on Punjab History_. W. Eric Gustafson and Kenneth
W. Jones , eds. New Delhi: Manohar Book Service.
1975 "Resources for Punjab Studies: A Preliminary Investigation,"
pp. 81-95 in Maureen L. P. Patterson and Martin Yanuck, eds.,
_South Asian Library Resources in North America_ Zug,
Switzerland: Inter-Documentation.
1973 "Ham Hindu Nahin: Arya-Sikh Relations, 1877-1905," _Journal of
Asian Studies 33 (May) 457-475.
Reprinted in _The Spokesman Weekly_ "Guru Nanak Number" (1973)
pp. 27-33.
Reprinted in _Punjab Past and Present_ 11 (Ocotber, 1977)
pp. 330-355.
Translated into Punjabi and reprinted in Khan Singh Nabha,
_Ham Hindu Nahin_ 2nd ed. (Amritsar: Kendri Sri Guru Singh
Sabha, 1978)
1969 "Sources of Arya Samaj History: An Exploratory Essay," _Indian
Archives_ 18 i (January-June): 1-17.
Reprinted in Gustafson and Jones, _Sources on Punjab History_
[see above, 1975] 130-164.
1968 "Commnalism in the Punjab: The Arya Samaj Contribution,"
_Journal of Asian Studies_ 27 i (November) 39-54.
Reprinted in Thomas R. Metcalf, ed., _India: An Interpretive
Anthology_ (New York: Macmillan, 1971) 206-220.
1966 "The Bengali Elite in Post-Annexation Punjab: An Example of
Inter-Regional Influence in 19th-Century Punjab," _Indian
Economic and Social History Review_ 3 (December) 376-395.
Reprinted in David Kopf, ed., _Bengal Regional Identity_ (East
Lansing, Michigan State University, 1969) 133-150.
===========================================================================
From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sun Nov 10 17:43:49 1996
From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 09:43:49 -0800
Subject: Video library
Message-ID: <161227026774.23782.14348469473143950224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I'm trying to build up an educational video library and wish to include
materials on the ancient history of China, Central Asia, West Asia, South
Asia, the Huns, the Hittites, etc. etc.
Could some one help me please with sources and general advice?
Thank you so much.
Regards,
Beatrice
From LGoehler at aol.com Sun Nov 10 18:02:37 1996
From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 13:02:37 -0500
Subject: Vidhi / arthavaada
Message-ID: <161227026776.23782.6810420414357673064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In einer eMail vom 10.11.1996 17:17:23, schreiben Sie:
>I am wondering whether the hermeneutic rules regarding the distinction
>between vidhi and arthavaada only apply to sentences of a normative
>character or also to assertions ("judgments"). Generally this distinction
>aims exclusively at being able to decide what part of a sentence should be
>understood as a prescription for action and what can be left out as praise
>or explanation. But is it nowhere discussed whether this distinction also
>apply to the possibility of ascertaining what is true (about the nature of
>things, not about what ought to be done) and what is not?
These topics are discussed at lengh in the MImAMsA. According to her view
sentences about the nature of things are closer to arthavAda than to vidhi.
As arthavAda's they have no sense of their own but depend on the vidhi they
are produced for. A ascertainment of the state of things only makes sense if
it supports directly or indirectly the understanding of vidhi, e.g. to state
the contitions that should be known to be able to follow the vidhi.
KumArila states explicitely (ZlokavArttika, Zabdapariccheda 5) that
statements about the nature of things (svarUpakathana) are of secondary or
dependent importance (aGgatva) in [his] ZAstra. - This is the view of the
MImAMsA; NyAya-VaizeSika would probably not agree with this.
Best wishes
Lars Goehler
From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Sun Nov 10 16:12:34 1996
From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 17:12:34 +0100
Subject: Vidhi / arthavaada
Message-ID: <161227026772.23782.17567949342198633276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indologists,
I am wondering whether the hermeneutic rules regarding the distinction
between vidhi and arthavaada only apply to sentences of a normative
character or also to assertions ("judgments"). Generally this distinction
aims exclusively at being able to decide what part of a sentence should be
understood as a prescription for action and what can be left out as praise
or explanation. But is it nowhere discussed whether this distinction also
apply to the possibility of ascertaining what is true (about the nature of
things, not about what ought to be done) and what is not?
Best wishes
Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil.
Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen,
Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark.
Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk
From fsnow at aa.net Mon Nov 11 18:26:44 1996
From: fsnow at aa.net (Frank Snow)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 10:26:44 -0800
Subject: new Tipitaka CD-ROM
Message-ID: <161227026788.23782.5456919660212264661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The Vipassana Research Institute has announced that their CD of the
Tipitaka will be available in the spring or early summer of 1997. The CD
will include the entire Chattha Sangayana (6th Council) edition, including
A.t.thakathaa and .Tiikaa. Texts will be viewable in Roman, Devanagari and
Burmese scripts.
Full text of the announcement can be found at
http://www.vrpa.com/vri/pali-canon-cd.htm
If you would like to be on a mailing list for further announcements about
the CD, send an e-mail to TipitakaCD at vrpa.com.
Sincerely,
Frank Snow
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Nov 11 10:29:38 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 10:29:38 +0000
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026778.23782.17329383580259864603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
For those who are not current with the latest Sanskrit news from
Bloomsbury, Prof. Clifford Wright has recently retired as professor of
Sanskrit at London University (SOAS). The only other full-time position
in Sanskrit in London University is Dr Renate Soehnen-Thieme, who is
Senior Lecturer in Skt. at SOAS.
This academic year is Dr Soehnen-Thieme's sabbatical, so there is nobody
on SOAS's full time staff to teach Sanskrit at all. As a stop-gap
measure, people from other departments, as well as local outsiders, are
pooling their efforts and teaching for SOAS, as follows:
first year: Anne Glazier and Richard Fox
second year: Rachel Dwyer and Julia Leslie
third year: Dominik Wujastyk
Discussions are underway at SOAS within the Department for South Asian
Studies (Head of Dept.: Dr Mike Hutt) about a successor for Prof. Wright,
but at the present time things do not look promising, to say the very
least. SOAS is going through a period of severe belt-tightening, with
cuts of over twenty teaching positions being necessary to balance the
books, because of another round of government funding reductions. When
any post is vacated at present, it is viewed as "natural wastage", and no
attempt is made to fill the post unless pressing reasons are evident for
doing so.
Due partly to the history of Sanskrit teaching at SOAS over the last
decades, it is not viewed within the institution as being an attractive or
high profile subject, or of as high a priority as, say, Japanese or Arabic
(where the money is), and it is therefore almost a foregone conclusion
that the professorial post will disappear (as happened at Cambridge, when
Prof. Brough passed away). Whether an appointment at a lower level will
be made is also in doubt.
The director of SOAS is
Sir Timothy Lankaster,
School of Oriental and African Studies,
Thornhaugh Street,
Russell Square,
London WC1H OXG,
England.
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From tatelman at total.net Mon Nov 11 15:41:06 1996
From: tatelman at total.net (tatelman at total.net)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 10:41:06 -0500
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026784.23782.8419339788693937230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I'm afraid that the practice of not replacing retiring professors (I use
the term in the generic N. American sense) of Sanskrit is well-established
in Canada. This extends to anything to do with pre-modern India. I know of
at least five positions in Indology and Buddhist studies which have ceased
to exist in the past five years. Less than inspiring, especially for one
such as myself who just completed a doctorate in a related subject, but,
ladies and gentlemen, it seems that we're not contributing, either directly
or otherwise, to the gross domestic product of our respective
nation-states...
Joel.
Joel Tatelman
#2-293A Roncesvalles Ave.,
Toronto, Ontario,
CANADA M6R 2M3.
Tel.: (416) 535-4997
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Nov 11 11:51:28 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 12:51:28 +0100
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026780.23782.7128975685205226476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
>Discussions are underway at SOAS within the Department for South Asian
>Studies (Head of Dept.: Dr Mike Hutt) about a successor for Prof. Wright,
>but at the present time things do not look promising, to say the very
>least. SOAS is going through a period of severe belt-tightening, with
>cuts of over twenty teaching positions being necessary to balance the
>books, because of another round of government funding reductions. When
>any post is vacated at present, it is viewed as "natural wastage", and no
>attempt is made to fill the post unless pressing reasons are evident for
>doing so.
Sad news, Dominik. Would you happen to know if there exists a list of
Sanskrit positions in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and the United States?
I fear that Sanskrit positions would have to be defended in more than one
place in the years to come, and that it would be a good thing to collect all
relevant data on Sanskrit teaching in the "Western" world, that is in the
areas mentioned above. If we pool such data, anybody struggling to uphold a
threatened Sanskrit position would have a data base upon which to draw!
Best regards,
Lars Martin
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Nov 11 13:28:54 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 13:28:54 +0000
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026782.23782.16420886758643302802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> Dominik. Would you happen to know if there exists a list of
> Sanskrit positions in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and the United States?
No, I don't have any bird's eye view. From time to time various Indian
organizations send out questionaires to gather this sort of information,
but one never hears any more about it. It is hard to keep track except by
word of mouth, and by regularly attending conferences. I can't see any
centralized register succeeding unless it was properly funded and kept up
to date on a monthly basis.
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Mon Nov 11 19:30:42 1996
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 13:30:42 -0600
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026790.23782.7612080397074666370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Indologists,
This is naturally a depressing sUtra (thread), but we must face it as
best we can in our respective areas. Here, at the University of Manitoba,
massive changes are likely in the quite near future, and who knows what
may happen. However that may be, I have a suggestion for young
Sanskritists. It comes ultimately from Professor Wolf Leslau. Many years
ago he was President of the American Oriental Society, and in that
capacity it was his duty to give the President's Address at the annual
conference. He did so with slides and much gusto. It was about languages
in Ethiopia. Many of those languages had only four
speakers or sometimes even less. Near the end of his talk he posed this
question: How is it possible for a young scholar to study such languages?
The answer he offered was this. The young scholar should be sure to have
a "cash" language that he or she can teach. In his case it was Hebrew.
Partly because of his suggestion, which was made to the group as a
whole and not directly to me, I made sure that I could teach Hindi when I
finished my Ph.D. in Sanskrit literature. Most of the teaching I have
done for the past 13 years has been Hindi teaching, but that has helped, in
circuitous ways, to
keep me employed, at least so far. The advantage for me has been that
while I do have to spend a lot of time teaching Hindi and Urdu, and while
I feel it my duty, and it also is my joy, to do some work with those
languages, primarily translating, I still have the opportunity to teach
Sanskrit to whomever decides to sign up for my Sanskrit courses, and I
still have the time to continue doing my own projects in Sanskrit
literature and Paninian grammar. It is not ideal, of course, and this
university couldn't care less whether or not I taught Sanskrit, but as
long as I'm here, I'll offer it. They can't tell me not to. At least, so
far they can't.
With hope,
Bob Hueckstedt
Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies
fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797
From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu Mon Nov 11 21:57:46 1996
From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 14:57:46 -0700
Subject: language instruction
Message-ID: <161227026792.23782.1736861160271594834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Given the recent discussion of the difficulty of maintaining academic positions
in the study of Sanskrit, the following request for information may seem either
salvific or quite poignant.
I wonder whether there is any university that offers instruction in any Indic
language, or Arabic, by interactive TV. This would present the possibility of
language instruction long-distance at universities that did not see a need to
hire a Sanskritist (for example) but where occasional students had an interest.
I'd appreciate hearing any replies.
Bruce M. Sullivan
Northern Arizona University
bruce.sullivan at nau.edu
From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 11 23:31:10 1996
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 15:31:10 -0800
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026796.23782.5006259900732061352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Lars,
What about Latin America? If it is not in the "Western" world, where is it?
Or did you mean the "first" world?
Sincerely,
Luis
Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California, Berkeley
At 12:39 PM 11/11/96 GMT, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>Sad news, Dominik. Would you happen to know if there exists a list of
>Sanskrit positions in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and the United States?
>I fear that Sanskrit positions would have to be defended in more than one
>place in the years to come, and that it would be a good thing to collect all
>relevant data on Sanskrit teaching in the "Western" world, that is in the
>areas mentioned above. If we pool such data, anybody struggling to uphold a
>threatened Sanskrit position would have a data base upon which to draw!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin
From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 11 23:49:04 1996
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: Query on translation of "anushAsana-parvan"
Message-ID: <161227026799.23782.11798795896749176680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
M.N. Dutt's translation is useful, especially because he gives verse numbers
(not from the critical edition, of course). Actually, Roy's translation is
largely based on Dutt's.
Dutt's translation of the entire epic has been reprinted by Parimal
Publications, Delhi. The anushasana is in vol. 7.
Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley
At 11:36 PM 11/11/96 GMT, Cezary Zemis wrote:
>Dear Indologist,
>
>I am looking for a translation of "anushAsana-parvan", the 13th book of
>"mahAbhArata". Do you know of any one, except Pratap Chandra Ray's? I am
>especially interested in two nAma-stotras: shiva- and vishhnu-
>(respectively: 13.17.* and 13.135.*).
>
>Thanks in advance.
>--
> _ _ _ Cezary Zemis, mailto:pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl -+
> / / / http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~pasiasty |
> / / / tel.(+48 22) 443 054, pager (tel.9641) 54040 |
>P A S I A S T Y Joliot-Curie 9/29, 02-646 Warszawa, Poland |
> / / / |
>/_ /_ /_ -------- ------------------------------ --------+
>
>
>
>
From shuka at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 17:53:27 1996
From: shuka at earthlink.net (Shukavak Das)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 17:53:27 +0000
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026801.23782.15730301128297478963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
What can happen to old Sanskritists:
Professor Hueckstedt suggestion of a "cash" language along with Sanskrit is excellent advice. I
wish I had of received that suggestion years ago while I specialized in Sanskrit and Indian
Studies at the University of Toronto. But as it happened my "cash" support turned out to be the
Hindu priesthood. I now work as a Hindu priest in Southern California- something I could
never have envisioned twenty years ago. I get to teach Sanskrit to my hearts content and I
have no shortage of Students. Believe it or not I have over 40 students who range in years
from 8 to 50. Sanskrit is still alive and well.
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Tue Nov 12 04:26:02 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 23:26:02 -0500
Subject: no chair/cash cows
Message-ID: <161227026806.23782.114206975408975091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I could not agree more:
>> The young scholar should be sure to have
a "cash" language that he or she can teach. <<< (B.Hueckstedt)
Precisely because of this --- and also because
literature exists in modern S.Asian languages --- I have been insisting,
and we have made it, at long last and not without resistance, a
requirement in our first new graduate study program (since the provisional
one of '84!):
-- that students also learn Hindi/Urdu or another modern S. Asian language.
M. Witzel
Sanskrit & Indian Studies
Harvard U.
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Tue Nov 12 04:28:41 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 23:28:41 -0500
Subject: yabh ity aadi
Message-ID: <161227026808.23782.14324419319555269082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Carlos Lopez is right: comme l'habitude, we miss on this list much work
that has already been done earlier in this century, not to speak
--horribile dictu-- of the last one... Remember the India/Greece discussion?
Cf. also on fenced graama-s (following message).
In the present context, as mentioned: K. Hoffmann's verb study, which
contains such grammatically interesting forms as the contaminated
(desiderative/future): nom. sg. fem. ptc. pass. desid. (yiiyapsyamaanaa),
-- and this in the Sruti! --
In the same vein, to provide another textual example: I once read out, in
1988, I believe, during the Harvard Holi celebration ("no obscenities
please!"), and then let everyone recite the refrain (for which I got good
marks) of Rgveda Khila 5.16 (Scheftelowitz = AV 20.133) --- with no one
understanding the riddle provided as handout - just as the little girl in the
mantras: na vai kumaari tat tathaa, yathaa kumaari manyase...
More in te following hymns...
Then, there is, of course, Ivo Fiser's "Indian Erotics of the oldest
period" (Acta Universitatis Carolinae, Philologica Monographia XIV),
Praha 1966. pp.139. This mostly deals with the Vedic period, but has a
representative if not complete collection of Skt. verbs and nouns of this
sphere, discusses a few interesting passages, etc. Also, you can learn
the Slovak equivalents of yabh: (p. 96: jebem ti mater, and Czech :
jebati, -- the Russian equivalent of which is perhaps better known and
commonly listed in dictionaries as the most common expletive, expression
of surprise).
For more on Vedic sex (though overdone):
Sadashiv A. Dange, Sexual Symbolism from the Vedic ritual, Delhi
(Ajanta) 1979.
Further, is there really any need to remind of the several works written
by Richard Schmidt (see below)? For Hoffmann, Schmidt, and Wezler one
needs to know German, of course, and occasionally also Latin...
PS. Just now, while reading Albrecht Wezler's "erotische Vexierbilder"
(on types of ambiguity in Kaavya), I notice a lot of further data:
see: Sauhrdyamangala. Studies in honour of Siegfried Lienhard, ed.
M.Juntunen et al., Assoc. of Oriental Studies, Stockholm 1995, pp. 361-379.
(including a detailed descr. of the Bhattoji joke on hrasvam laghu;
samyoge guru, diirgham ca, cases from the Satasaai, and Caurapancaazikaa
of BilhaNa.)
M. Witzel
witzel at husc3.harvard.edu
--------
I quote from our library catalogue (without diactrics):
R. Schmidt:
* beitrage zur indischen erotik/ 1902
* beitrage zur indischen erotik. das liebensleben des sanskritvolkes/
1922
* liebe und ehe im alten und modernen indien 1904
cf. also:
* nachtrage zum sanskrit worterbuch in kurzerer fassung von otto
boehtlingk/ 1928
--- ity alam---
From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Mon Nov 11 23:42:40 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (DR.S.KALYANARAMAN)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 23:42:40 +0000
Subject: A new e-zine on India
Message-ID: <161227026786.23782.2963502173025735407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The following site will be of interest to indology members.
DiscoverIndia Webzine focusses on Indian art, culture and travel; has a
database of RealAudio Indian Music samples.
http://www.investindia.com
Regards. Kalyanaraman.
From pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl Mon Nov 11 23:26:52 1996
From: pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl (Cezary Zemis)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 00:26:52 +0100
Subject: Query on translation of "anushAsana-parvan"
Message-ID: <161227026794.23782.15515888556701098243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indologist,
I am looking for a translation of "anushAsana-parvan", the 13th book of
"mahAbhArata". Do you know of any one, except Pratap Chandra Ray's? I am
especially interested in two nAma-stotras: shiva- and vishhnu-
(respectively: 13.17.* and 13.135.*).
Thanks in advance.
--
_ _ _ Cezary Zemis, mailto:pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl -+
/ / / http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~pasiasty |
/ / / tel.(+48 22) 443 054, pager (tel.9641) 54040 |
P A S I A S T Y Joliot-Curie 9/29, 02-646 Warszawa, Poland |
/ / / |
/_ /_ /_ -------- ------------------------------ --------+
From thompson at jlc.net Tue Nov 12 14:20:39 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 10:20:39 -0400
Subject: yabh ity aadi
Message-ID: <161227026818.23782.762562798887649284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I'd like to apologize to Michael Witzel for talking about things which
clearly he knows more about than I do. Unfortunately yabh- is just one of
those things that it is hard not to talk about, even in greatest ignorance.
I myself have noticed that there is in general great passion for this
subject on this list, although I confess that I do not have references to
support this view.
Sincerely,
George
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Nov 12 09:37:49 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 10:37:49 +0100
Subject: no chair of Sanskrit in London
Message-ID: <161227026810.23782.16683817747386506697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 23:48 11.11.96 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear Lars,
>
>What about Latin America? If it is not in the "Western" world, where is it?
>Or did you mean the "first" world?
You are absolutely rigth! This was an oversight (most likely caused by the
fact that I have heard from several persons that Sanskrit studies are hardly
pursued in Latin-America at all).
But to make my position clear: Latin America is part of the Western World!
Best regards,
Lars Martin
From pventhb at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 12 10:46:58 1996
From: pventhb at xs4all.nl (pventhb at xs4all.nl)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 11:46:58 +0100
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026812.23782.1887651628606920498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
>I could not agree more:
>
>>> The young scholar should be sure to have
> a "cash" language that he or she can teach. <<< (B.Hueckstedt)
>
>
>Precisely because of this --- and also because
>literature exists in modern S.Asian languages --- I have been insisting,
>and we have made it, at long last and not without resistance, a
>requirement in our first new graduate study program (since the provisional
>one of '84!):
>
>-- that students also learn Hindi/Urdu or another modern S. Asian language.
>
>
>
>M. Witzel
>Sanskrit & Indian Studies
>Harvard U.
>
>
>
>
Dear Indology-valas,
jehim. mAraga pam.d.ita gae teI gaI bahIra
aughat.a ghAt.I rAm.ma kI tihim. car.hi rahA kabIra
The pundits have taken the path that the crowds have been following,
Kabir has climbed the inaccessible pass of Ram and dwells there.
(Kabir sakhi 20.4)
The business of "cash" languages makes this sUtra on career-perspectives
even more depressing. Hindi and Urdu language and literature is a field of
specialised scholarly research. Teaching Hindi and Urdu by graduates as a
side-show to their "real" scholarly work is a poor substitute for having a
specialist scholar in these fields. Academic institutes that go for this are
unaware of the amount of good scholarship that is around in the field of
pre-modern and modern Indian culture and are providing a poor service to
their students by hiring someone who does it only for earning "cash".
Understand me correctly, it is not my opinion that Sanskritists can not be
good Hindi teachers - on the contrary - there are some very good ones around
but only because they developed the skills of a dedicated scholar in that
field in the way of intimate knowledge of the various phases of
NIA-languages, Hindi literature, Indian Islam, Persian and Arabic, for
teaching Sufi poetry and Urdu. I am trained as Indologist with a serious
amount of Sanskrit, yet I would hesitate that to claim that I can teach
Sanskrit at anything but the most elementary level. My field (as you might
have guessed) is medieval Hindi - bhakti and Sufi poetry - and from that
perspective I regard teaching living languages at any academic level as a
serious scholarly discipline.
"Cash" is a nice and sometimes even necessary thing to have around, but is
this the way to do it?. Besides, the knowledge of Hebrew a "solid" scholar
of Semitic languages has is of a high academic level which goes far beyond
what can be picked up in some quick courses in Hindi, let alone Urdu. The
kind of cross-discipline teaching Porf Leslau referred is not uncommon among
scholars of Middle Eastern languages and can sometimes breed excellent
broad-minded scholars but takes dedication and a resolve to reach the level
of specialist scholars in the concerning fields.
Please, let's take our own discipline serious and not sell out too easily to
anyone who rattles with a bundle of "cash". Creating jobs in this field
takes a positive and active approach and is difficult enough even then.
Thomas de Bruijn
From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Tue Nov 12 04:14:57 1996
From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 12:14:57 +0800
Subject: language instruction
Message-ID: <161227026803.23782.16435681292858494178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Interactive TV is just getting started in the world. As it becomes a
mainstream product in 97, I am sure that some content provider will come
forth to offer language learning through it.
Regards...Das
At 10:02 PM 11/11/96 GMT, Bruce M. Sullivan wrote:
>Given the recent discussion of the difficulty of maintaining academic positions
>in the study of Sanskrit, the following request for information may seem either
>salvific or quite poignant.
>
>I wonder whether there is any university that offers instruction in any Indic
>language, or Arabic, by interactive TV. This would present the possibility of
>language instruction long-distance at universities that did not see a need to
>hire a Sanskritist (for example) but where occasional students had an interest.
>I'd appreciate hearing any replies.
>
>Bruce M. Sullivan
>Northern Arizona University
> bruce.sullivan at nau.edu
>
>
>
From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr Tue Nov 12 19:42:39 1996
From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 14:42:39 -0500
Subject: Jaataka reference
Message-ID: <161227026816.23782.10282881666507175723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:07:14 GMT, wrote:
>Would someone with a copy of the PTS Jaataka text do me a quick favor? On
>page 96 of volume II appears the word muddikaapaanam, according to Laufer's
>reference in a study of wine etc. Would someone be so kind as to look up the
>*line number* of the reference for me? Thank you!
>
>Appreciatively,
>
>Jonathan Silk
Vol. II, P. 96 (Vaalodakajaataka), lines 19-20.
Regards, B.O.
From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr Tue Nov 12 19:44:39 1996
From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 14:44:39 -0500
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026814.23782.18310796680556903036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:09:11 GMT, Edwin F Bryant wrote:
>I am doing research involving the antiquity of the Veda. Can any one
>refer me to sources, over the last century or more, that have contributed
>to establishing the commonly assigned date of circa 1200 BCE (apart from
>Max Muller's assignment of 200 year periods for the various texts back
>dated from the beginning of the Buddhist period, which he later
>acknowledged was totally arbitrary)? Is there any material that has
>contested these dates (apart from Winternitz)? Most especially, is there
>any more recent material discussing the problems of Vedic dating (by which
>I intend the whole corpus including Braahma.nas etc.)? Any references at
>all would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edwin Bryant Columbia
>University.
See among other secondary sources J. Gonda, Vedic Literature, if it
escaped your attention
From Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au Tue Nov 12 04:24:20 1996
From: Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au (Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 15:24:20 +1100
Subject: interactive televised language instruction
Message-ID: <161227026805.23782.7738137653667407357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On the subject of instruction in any Indic
>language, or Arabic, by interactive TV, Yes, Peter Friedlander and Sudha
>Joshi at La Trobe University in Melbourne and I at the Australian National
>University in Canberra have begun experimental interactive televised
>advanced Hindi literature classes between our universities. So far our
>experiments have been successful and we hope to start regular televised
>sessions some time next year.
>Richard Barz
>Australian National University
> Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Nov 12 16:40:34 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 16:40:34 +0000
Subject: yabh ity aadi
Message-ID: <161227026821.23782.409466683918795878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 witzel at husc3.harvard.edu wrote:
> (desiderative/future): nom. sg. fem. ptc. pass. desid. (yiiyapsyamaanaa),
This is delightful!
But much of the rest of the message was about old (but gold) articles on
erotics and sex, which is not the same thing at all as obscenity and
foul language, which is what Bob's students were asking about.
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Nov 12 16:43:52 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 16:43:52 +0000
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026823.23782.7650328080236279351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
It is ironic that in western democracies Sanskritists require a career in
Hindi for economic reasons, as they did in the former Soviet block for
ideological reasons.
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Tue Nov 12 16:44:15 1996
From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 17:44:15 +0100
Subject: cunni
Message-ID: <161227026819.23782.8923174827389608655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
This is probably the last question regarding the first 10 parts of the
Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth:
1] the dedication
To Papa and Mama and the memory of Amma
(this is not for the translation, just to know it) Is Amma grandmother here?
2] cunni
on the p. 29 (1.11):
At the medical college in Brahmpur, and before that, when she had studied
Intermediate Science in Agra, Malati had had a lot to put up with: teasing,
gossip, the pulling of the light chunni around her neck, and remarks such as
'She wants to be a boy.' This was very far from the truth.
if the chunni is hindi cunnii, what is the meaning here?
thank you, Jan Dvorak
From asia at server.uwindsor.ca Wed Nov 13 00:26:07 1996
From: asia at server.uwindsor.ca (Inst. Of Asian Cultures)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 19:26:07 -0500
Subject: CD-ROMs on India (was Re: Video library)
Message-ID: <161227026827.23782.12150392064368052656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, B. Reusch wrote:
>
> I'm trying to build up an educational video library and wish to include
> materials on the ancient history of China, Central Asia, West Asia, South
> Asia, the Huns, the Hittites, etc. etc.
> Could some one help me please with sources and general advice?
> Thank you so much.
> Regards,
> Beatrice
>
--------------------------------
Dear Beatrice,
When you talk about 'video' library, I hope you are not excluding
multimedia, e.g., CD-Roms. There are perhaps many more CD-ROMs on India
than I know. Perhaps the following may be of interest to you:
1. India Mystics Multimedia CDROM
2. An encyclopedia of the traditions, customs and religion of India (in
rich multimedia).
The producers of these resources (Acom Information Services, P.O.Box 420,
Easton, CT - 06612; http://www/acornis.com say you can "see a video of a
Hindu wedding...
Hear Vesudas sing the Gayatri Mantra... Listen and view the story of
Ganesha..." etc. (From the Advert) email: india at acornis.com for further
information.
3. Magic Software of New Delhi are the producers (vide a news item in
_India Abroad_ (July 12, 1996, p. 30).
4. SarlSoft (P.O. Box 3671, Santa Clara, CA 95065; Tel: 408-244-8110)
have also advertised several items that may be of interest to computer
users. One of them is GYANA (Multimedia introduction to India on CD-ROM)
vide _India Abroad_ May 5, 1995.
5. An introduction to Bengali culture and history (_Banga Parichaya_) has
been produced by Dr. Gautum Sengupta (_India Abroad_ July 26, 1996, p. 35).
I am sure other indologists will be able to add many more titles to this
meagre list. I do not know how 'good' or reliable are the sources that I
have referred to since I have not tried them. Perhaps someone who is more
familiar with these sources can comment on this aspect.
Sushil Jain
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue Nov 12 23:28:24 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 22:28:24 -0100
Subject: cunni
Message-ID: <161227026829.23782.14286374722131094748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 12 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz)
JDcc> This is probably the last question regarding the first 10
JDcc> parts of the
JDcc> Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth:
JDcc> 1] the dedication
JDcc> To Papa and Mama and the memory of Amma
JDcc> (this is not for the translation, just to know it) Is Amma
JDcc> grandmother here?
Or a reference to a South Indian lady (of whom many live in Bombay)? "Amma"
(lit. "mother") is the common polite southern appellation for any woman in the
south.
Robert Zydenbos
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Wed Nov 13 00:08:52 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 23:08:52 -0100
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026832.23782.14679114636379592745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 12 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk)
uau> From: Dominik Wujastyk
uau> Subject: Re: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
uau> It is ironic that in western democracies Sanskritists
uau> require a career in
uau> Hindi for economic reasons, as they did in the former
uau> Soviet block for
uau> ideological reasons.
What is still more ironic is that, in spite of the bad movies and of the
official promoting of Hindi by New Delhi (e.g. through the mass media), the
percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed. (Personally, I have had more
useful conversations in Sanskrit.)
This brings up the question: why should we be interested in learning modern
Indian languages? To (a) learn about post-ancient India, (b) to get access to a
mass of secondary literature on various subjects in those languages, and (c) to
interact with living people, obviously. Hindi has always been a minority
language, and a very young one at that. With this in mind, it is saddening that
academic positions in other Indian languges (e.g. Dravidian) are actually
dwindling in number in favour of that one minority.
I wonder whether the Hindi motivation in the western democracies isn't,
ultimately, largely ideological too.
Robert Zydenbos
From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Wed Nov 13 12:59:27 1996
From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 07:59:27 -0500
Subject: Harvard University Outreach Lecture
Message-ID: <161227026839.23782.4432375693091760103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
To the members in the Indology list:
For the last couple of years we have instituted a set of outreach
lectures held every month during the academic year. The dates for
1996-97 are 11/16, 12/14, 1/11, 2/15, 3/15, 4/19, 5/10. They are
held at the Science Center Lecture Halls located next to the Yard.
The announcement for the lecture for November is attached. Please
join in if you are in the area. Please also let me know if your
schedule will permit to give a lecture on any of the scheduled
dates. I wish to thank you for your help and your anticipated
encouragement!
- Bijoy Misra.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Harvard University
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
Outreach Committee Public Lecture
---------------------------------
"FIRST ENCOUNTERS: FROM INDIA TO NEW ENGLAND BEFORE 1860"
by
Dr. Susan Bean
Curator, Peabody Essex Museum, Salem, MA.
Saturday, November 16, 3:00 PM
Lecture Hall D,
Harvard University Science Center,
1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA.
The lecture is free and the public is cordially invited..
The hall is wheel-chair accessible.
For any further information, please call (617)495-3295 or (617)864-5121.
From fp7 at columbia.edu Wed Nov 13 13:41:04 1996
From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 08:41:04 -0500
Subject: cunni
Message-ID: <161227026836.23782.4548824294754787562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Jan Dvorak wrote:
> This is probably the last question regarding the first 10 parts of the
> Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth:
>
> 1] the dedication
>
> To Papa and Mama and the memory of Amma
>
> (this is not for the translation, just to know it) Is Amma grandmother here?
>
better check with the author, in my observation kinship terms are thrown
around very readily and often apply to close friends etc.
> 2] cunni
>
> on the p. 29 (1.11):
>
> At the medical college in Brahmpur, and before that, when she had studied
> Intermediate Science in Agra, Malati had had a lot to put up with: teasing,
> gossip, the pulling of the light chunni around her neck, and remarks
such as
> 'She wants to be a boy.' This was very far from the truth.
>
> if the chunni is hindi cunnii, what is the meaning here?
>
> thank you, Jan Dvorak
>
>
cunnii = dupaTTaa, the long light scarf or veil worn with shalvaar qamiis
outfits and/or kurtaa cuuRiidaar. I will not elaborate because I'm sure
you know what these look like. These outfits, and their very rapid
evolution now taking place, would be great material for a book on fashion
history, with so much cultural meaning too...
From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Tue Nov 12 23:59:15 1996
From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 09:59:15 +1000
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026825.23782.4634518108255756968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Have you looked at B G Tilak's revisions of Jacobi's dating system, which
he apparently discussed with Max Muller as well (in London at an Oriental
Conference)? I am no expert in the field and have some suspicions about
Tilak's pre-Hindutva urges, but the speculations he comes with and the
astronomical evidence he adduces are rivetting for a late Dipawali
atfernoon! See his Vedas in the
Arctic Age, and Orion (both from Poona).
Cheers
PB
On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Boris Oguibenine wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:09:11 GMT, Edwin F Bryant wrote:
>
> >I am doing research involving the antiquity of the Veda. Can any one
> >refer me to sources, over the last century or more, that have contributed
> >to establishing the commonly assigned date of circa 1200 BCE (apart from
> >Max Muller's assignment of 200 year periods for the various texts back
> >dated from the beginning of the Buddhist period, which he later
> >acknowledged was totally arbitrary)? Is there any material that has
> >contested these dates (apart from Winternitz)? Most especially, is there
> >any more recent material discussing the problems of Vedic dating (by which
> >I intend the whole corpus including Braahma.nas etc.)? Any references at
> >all would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edwin Bryant Columbia
> >University.
>
> See among other secondary sources J. Gonda, Vedic Literature, if it
> escaped your attention
>
>
From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Nov 13 16:18:16 1996
From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 10:18:16 -0600
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026846.23782.8563013889412168290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
R. Barz' message does sound a little rash.
I can quote quite a few places where you cannot have an intelligent
conversation in any other language than Tamil, except perhaps with
a few people such as employees of the central govt.
Perhaps on a more positive note, one may wonder whether the appropriate
response to the current state of Indian/Indic studies is really to try to
artificially inflate one of the branches of Indology, such as Hindi
studies, thereby promoting division, and perhaps bickering (I hope not),
among the Indology community.
A multi-disciplinary approach, such as suggested by several on this
thread, appears more reasonable.
S. Kichenassamy
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Richard Barz wrote:
[...]
> >
> >I wonder whether the Hindi motivation in the western democracies isn't,
> >ultimately, largely ideological too.
> >
> >Robert Zydenbos
>
>
> It's fashionable in some circles, for ideological and other reasons, to
> indulge in Hindi-bashing. But, sorry, it just isn't true that "the
> >percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
> >conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed". In fact, if one ignores
> >the artificial divisions between Hindi, filmi Hindi, Hindustani and Urdu
> >and just calls it all Hindi, then Hindi is the only South Asian language
> >in which one can have any kind of conversation, intelligent or not, any
> >where in India, Pakistan or Nepal. In fact, since English really is the
[...]
>
> Richard Barz
> Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au
>
>
>
>
From efb3 at columbia.edu Wed Nov 13 16:32:44 1996
From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 11:32:44 -0500
Subject: Date of the Veda
Message-ID: <161227026845.23782.9387150422888079386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Purushottama, Thank you for your response.
Yes, the first part of Tilak's book, at least sections of it, do make
rivetting reading. He and Jacobi, both within two weeks of each other
and originally oblivious of each others work, submitted their results to
Buhler for consideration. Buhler fully supported their views (that the
Rig veda contains astronomical clues that would date the text far
earlier than had been accepted by most Indologists), and added numerous
more references in support of them. Their views were
opposed by Whitney, Thibaut and Oldenberg. However, Jacobi and Tilak (I
don't know about Buhler) never retracted or modified their position.
Whitney and Thibaut did not disprove their claims, but did show that
alternative explanations were possible for the references that Jacobi and
Tilak (J & T) had brought forward, so that such claims could not be used
as proof of the antiquity of the Veda.
Although the debate, almost exactly a century ago now, has never
resurfaced in mainstream Western academic circles, Indian astronomers,
in general, have never accepted that Whitney and Thibaut (W & T) had
finalised the matter. It boils down to what assumptions one chooses to
make. W & T's assumption is that there is no evidence that the
Indo-Aryans had the
same nakshatra system earlier, as it had by the time of the Vedanga
jyotisha (even though several nakshatras are mentioned in the Rig). They
also claimed that there is no explicit reference to the solstice or
equinox in the Rig. Their assumption, in short, is that non-mention of
such skills equals non-familiarity with them.
T & J, Buhler, and most astronomers I am familiar with in
India, do not share this assumption. For them non-mention of such things
is not tantamount to ignorance of them, and the references themselves
suggest familiarity with elementary, basic astronomical abilities, which
would be very essential for any pre-technological society.
Any comments anybody? Edwin Bryant, Columbia University
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996,
purushottama bilimoria wrote:
>
> Have you looked at B G Tilak's revisions of Jacobi's dating system, which
> he apparently discussed with Max Muller as well (in London at an Oriental
> Conference)? I am no expert in the field and have some suspicions about
> Tilak's pre-Hindutva urges, but the speculations he comes with and the
> astronomical evidence he adduces are rivetting for a late Dipawali
> atfernoon! See his Vedas in the
> Arctic Age, and Orion (both from Poona).
>
> Cheers
>
> PB
>
> On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Boris Oguibenine wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:09:11 GMT, Edwin F Bryant wrote:
> >
> > >I am doing research involving the antiquity of the Veda. Can any one
> > >refer me to sources, over the last century or more, that have contributed
> > >to establishing the commonly assigned date of circa 1200 BCE (apart from
> > >Max Muller's assignment of 200 year periods for the various texts back
> > >dated from the beginning of the Buddhist period, which he later
> > >acknowledged was totally arbitrary)? Is there any material that has
> > >contested these dates (apart from Winternitz)? Most especially, is there
> > >any more recent material discussing the problems of Vedic dating (by which
> > >I intend the whole corpus including Braahma.nas etc.)? Any references at
> > >all would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edwin Bryant Columbia
> > >University.
> >
> > See among other secondary sources J. Gonda, Vedic Literature, if it
> > escaped your attention
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
From jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Nov 13 19:18:19 1996
From: jftzgrld at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 14:18:19 -0500
Subject: Query on translation of "anushAsana-parvan"
Message-ID: <161227026852.23782.1171583447885673777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:
> M.N. Dutt's translation is useful, especially because he gives verse numbers
> (not from the critical edition, of course). Actually, Roy's translation is
> largely based on Dutt's.
It is the other way around. The Ganguli/Roy translation began publication
in 1884 (according to Winternitz, 1972 Oriental Books Reprint of his
History of Indian Literature, vol. 1, p. 327, nt. 1) and is a serious and
scholarly translation, though far from perfect. M. N. Dutt's rendition
began to appear in 1895, and it is hard to avoid the impression that it is
anything but a slight rewording, verse after verse after verse, of
Ganguli's efforts. Ganguli's notes discuss some difficult passages and
readings and quarrel with NiilakaNTha and the Burdwan translators, though
often he silently resolves difficulties by simply following NiilakaNTha. I
have never found the slightest glimmer of a difference in the
interpretation of a difficult pada between Dutt's rendering and Ganguli's.
Dutt often uses slightly different words, but I have never seen an
instance where he offers a different understanding. Of course I stopped
consulting Dutt's rendition long ago; perhaps there is more value in it
than I saw.
Some of the older editions, and some reprints, of the Ganguli/Roy
translation do contain verse numbers and Ganguli's notes. The "third
improved edition: January, 1975" of Munshiram Manorharlal's vol. VIII,
contains notes. I can't remember which editions contained the sloka
numbers.
Jim Fitzgerald, University of Tennessee
> Dutt's translation of the entire epic has been reprinted by Parimal
> Publications, Delhi. The anushasana is in vol. 7.
>
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley
>
>
> At 11:36 PM 11/11/96 GMT, Cezary Zemis wrote:
> >Dear Indologist,
> >
> >I am looking for a translation of "anushAsana-parvan", the 13th book of
> >"mahAbhArata". Do you know of any one, except Pratap Chandra Ray's? I am
> >especially interested in two nAma-stotras: shiva- and vishhnu-
> >(respectively: 13.17.* and 13.135.*).
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
> >--
> > _ _ _ Cezary Zemis, mailto:pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl -+
> > / / / http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~pasiasty |
> > / / / tel.(+48 22) 443 054, pager (tel.9641) 54040 |
> >P A S I A S T Y Joliot-Curie 9/29, 02-646 Warszawa, Poland |
> > / / / |
> >/_ /_ /_ -------- ------------------------------ --------+
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
From mkv1 at york.ac.uk Wed Nov 13 09:43:27 1996
From: mkv1 at york.ac.uk (Mahendra Verma)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 14:43:27 +0500
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026843.23782.785104860704569972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dominik Wujastyk said:
the percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an
intelligent
conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed.
Dominik, I'm really surprised. Ofcourse, it will depend on what you mean by
'intelligent conversation'.
mahendra
From Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au Wed Nov 13 04:14:04 1996
From: Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au (Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 15:14:04 +1100
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026834.23782.7260983189599603151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Replies to msg 12 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk)
>
> uau> From: Dominik Wujastyk
> uau> Subject: Re: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
>
> uau> It is ironic that in western democracies Sanskritists
> uau> require a career in
> uau> Hindi for economic reasons, as they did in the former
> uau> Soviet block for
> uau> ideological reasons.
>
>What is still more ironic is that, in spite of the bad movies and of the
>official promoting of Hindi by New Delhi (e.g. through the mass media), the
>percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
>conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed. (Personally, I have had more
>useful conversations in Sanskrit.)
>
>This brings up the question: why should we be interested in learning modern
>Indian languages? To (a) learn about post-ancient India, (b) to get access to a
>mass of secondary literature on various subjects in those languages, and (c) to
>interact with living people, obviously. Hindi has always been a minority
>language, and a very young one at that. With this in mind, it is saddening that
>academic positions in other Indian languges (e.g. Dravidian) are actually
>dwindling in number in favour of that one minority.
>
>I wonder whether the Hindi motivation in the western democracies isn't,
>ultimately, largely ideological too.
>
>Robert Zydenbos
It's fashionable in some circles, for ideological and other reasons, to
indulge in Hindi-bashing. But, sorry, it just isn't true that "the
>percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
>conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed". In fact, if one ignores
>the artificial divisions between Hindi, filmi Hindi, Hindustani and Urdu
>and just calls it all Hindi, then Hindi is the only South Asian language
>in which one can have any kind of conversation, intelligent or not, any
>where in India, Pakistan or Nepal. In fact, since English really is the
>language of a tiny elite, Hindi is the only language in which one can have
>any chance of having a conversation anywhere in India. Naturally, Tamil,
>Gujarati, Bengali and so on are fine languages every bit the equal of
>Hindi but none of them have any where near the geographical and cultural
>spread of Hindi.
Richard Barz
Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au
From m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw Wed Nov 13 09:04:33 1996
From: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw (Miroslav Rozehnal)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 17:04:33 +0800
Subject: language instruction
Message-ID: <161227026841.23782.9455516192472467129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu wrote:
[deleted]
> I wonder whether there is any university that offers instruction in any Indic
> language, or Arabic, by interactive TV. This would present the possibility of
[deleted]
National Taiwan University in Taipei is working on such a large-scale
project which includes interactive teaching of several languages.
Sanskrit is one of those being offered.
The project is only in the beginning, though, so far we are working on
the Sanskrit grammar.
I invite everybody to check it:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/e-cbs.htm
Of course, any suggestions or criticism is wellcome.
Regards,
M. Rozehnal
-----------------------------------
Miroslav Rozehnal
Mandarin Training Center
National Taiwan Normal University
Taipei
Taiwan, R.O.C.
E-mail: m63051 at mtc.ntnu.edu.tw
see: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/e-cbs.htm
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Nov 13 17:49:08 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 17:49:08 +0000
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026848.23782.9820716734441234756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Mahendra Verma wrote:
>> the percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an
>> intelligent conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed.
>
> Dominik, I'm really surprised. Ofcourse, it will depend on what you
> mean by 'intelligent conversation'.
I CERTAINLY DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU QUOTE ABOVE!!!!! IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE.
Please look again carefully at the original messages and their email
headers. I said something about the Soviet block, and someone else quoted
me, and then went on to make the above statement (among other, perhaps
more measured, points).
Nota Bene! If anyone wishes to argue about the above quotation, please
take the matter up directly with the person who sent it. It is not an
indological topic, and I would be grateful if if further discussion about
"intelligent conversation" was conducted outside the INDOLOGY forum.
In other words, I'm hereby banishing "intelligent conversation" from
INDOLOGY.
:-)
Best wishes,
Dominik
--
Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England
FAX: 44 171 611 8545
From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Nov 13 16:08:44 1996
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 19:08:44 +0300
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026850.23782.17186605656636880290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Reply to Richard Barz' reply to Zydenbos' reply to Wujastyk:
>It's fashionable in some circles, for ideological and other reasons, to
>indulge in Hindi-bashing. But, sorry, it just isn't true that "the
>>percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
>>conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed". In fact, if one ignores
>>the artificial divisions between Hindi, filmi Hindi, Hindustani and Urdu
>>and just calls it all Hindi, then Hindi is the only South Asian language
>>in which one can have any kind of conversation, intelligent or not, any
>>where in India, Pakistan or Nepal. In fact, since English really is the
>>language of a tiny elite, Hindi is the only language in which one can have
>>any chance of having a conversation anywhere in India. Naturally, Tamil,
>>Gujarati, Bengali and so on are fine languages every bit the equal of
>>Hindi but none of them have any where near the geographical and cultural
>>spread of Hindi.
>
>Richard Barz
>Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au
--I am a teacher of Urdu (and to a certain extent of Hindi) by profession,
but contest Richard Barz' statement. I will restrict myself to a subject on
which I can speak from experience: Nepali. Hindi is not the cultural
language of Nepal, Nepali is, and it has the vocabulary and grammatical
flexibility to handle all the topics I could think of discussing during a
two year stay (doing lexicographic research). The more abstract vocabulary
comes mostly from Sanskrit, but so does that of Hindi.
With best wishes,
Ruth Schmidt
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu Nov 14 02:16:24 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 01:16:24 -0100
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026856.23782.9283384882374845582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 13 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk)
uau> In other words, I'm hereby banishing "intelligent
uau> conversation" from
uau> INDOLOGY.
uau> :-)
Ah... yes, perhaps it is time to discard the more casual remark in favour of
something more elaborate, explicit and precise, for the sake of a possible
polite further discussion (if anyone is at all interested).
I certainly do not mean that Hindi is useless as a medium of communication.
What I do mean is that there is a Western perception that Hindi is "the" modern
language of India. My contention is that it is, but only to a very limited
extent. It may be amusing (?) to note here that, in a parallel case, many
Indians believe that they can speak English with the rest of the world. But is
English spoken all across Europe? Yes, in a way; but in another sense: no,
certainly not. There are highly intelligent people in Europe who cannot carry
on a significant conversation, which they themselves find satisfactory, in
English; this has nothing to do with their intelligence, but with their active
mastery of the language. This again has to do with real linguistic
difficulties, very real cultural differences, etc. etc. And I contend that this
is not merely the same with Hindi in India, but more so.
Let us take the example of Tibetan refugees living in Karnataka. They learnt
Hindi and now realize that apart from their most basic economic dealings, they
are socially isolated from the surrounding population. This isolation is caused
largely by a language barrier which Hindi has hardly helped them overcome. [I
speak Hindi with some of them. :-)]
The distinctions made between filmi Hindi, Urdu etc. etc., which Richard Barz
calls "artificial", are socially and linguistically highly relevant if we wish
to discuss the effectiveness of the language as a medium of communication
throughout the entire gamut of communication within the culture of a country
like India, i.e. also as a means of intercultural communication between the
many sub-cultures of the Indian sub-continent. (And perhaps it can be labelled
a form of "orientalism", in Said's sense, if one denies that these distinctions
exist.)
Of course the evaluation of the role of any language depends mainly on exactly
what one needs the language for: in which contexts, in interaction with which
people, to which purposes, etc. For certain specific purposes, Hindi is very
effective throughout India. But what is the nature of the "cultural spread" of
Hindi in India, which Richard Barz writes about? Is this not an Indological
topic? Is it not (at least a little) interesting that millions of people (more
than the populations of most Western countries) hold Hindi in contempt or hate
it as (what they consider) a tool of political oppression? Surely it is not
"Hindi-bashing" to ask such legitimate questions. (As for the remark on the
side by the same critic, concerning English vs. Hindi: English gets you further
than Hindi in the south, where able speakers of Hindi are a minuscule
minority.)
I believe that my original statement, along with this elaboration (sorry for
this apparently necessary lengthiness), still holds good. But if it is not
politically correct for an Indologist to speak about the majority of the people
of India - or if we are not supposed to look at what actually happens in India
- or if we should not question the "cultural spread" of Hindi (which I did when
I wrote about the now banished i[...] c[...]) - or if we should hush up that
people have died for the official recognition of their languages and for the
creation of linguistic states - or if we should not wonder why the value of
Indian banknotes is printed on them in so many languages (remember our earlier
postings?) - or if all this has already been discussed, or if persons in
INDOLOGY start yelling at each other or bash or accuse others of bashing, -
well, then we can discuss on-line libraries, fonts, and other nice things. :-)
Robert Zydenbos
>?From 101621.104 at CompuServe.COM 14 96 Nov EST 02:43:56
Date: 14 Nov 96 02:43:56 EST
From: Anthony P Stone <101621.104 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Date of the Veda
With regard to the astronomical methods of dating the Rid Veda, the deities of
the 27 nakshatras are listed in Taittiriya Samhita 4.4.10; Taittiriya Brahmana
1.5.1; and Kathaka Samhita 39.13. Lists for the 28 nakshatras (i.e. including
Abhijit) are found in TB 3.1.1-2; Maitrayani Sam. 2.13.20.
So a lot depends on the relative dating of TS and VJ.
On Nov 13, 1996 Edwin F Bryant wrote:
> Purushottama, Thank you for your response.
>Yes, the first part of Tilak's book, at least sections of it, do make rivetting
reading. >He and Jacobi, both within two weeks of each other and originally
oblivious of each >others work, submitted their results to Buhler for
consideration. Buhler fully >supported their views (that the Rig veda contains
astronomical clues that would >date the text far earlier than had been accepted
by most Indologists), and added >numerous more references in support of them.
Their views were opposed by >Whitney, Thibaut and Oldenberg. However, Jacobi
and Tilak (I don't know about >Buhler) never retracted or modified their
position. Whitney and Thibaut did not >disprove their claims, but did show that
alternative explanations were possible for >the references that Jacobi and Tilak
(J & T) had brought forward, so that such >claims could not be used as proof of
the antiquity of the Veda.
> Although the debate, almost exactly a century ago now, has never
>resurfaced in mainstream Western academic circles, Indian astronomers, in
>general, have never accepted that Whitney and Thibaut (W & T) had finalised the
>matter. It boils down to what assumptions one chooses to make. W & T's
>assumption is that there is no evidence that the Indo-Aryans had the same
>nakshatra system earlier, as it had by the time of the Vedanga jyotisha (even
though several nakshatras are mentioned in the Rig). They also claimed that
there >is no explicit reference to the solstice or equinox in the Rig. Their
assumption, in >short, is that non-mention of such skills equals non-familiarity
with them.
> T & J, Buhler, and most astronomers I am familiar with in India, do not
>share this assumption. For them non-mention of such things is not tantamount
to >ignorance of them, and the references themselves suggest familiarity with
>elementary, basic astronomical abilities, which would be very essential for any
>pre-technological society.
>Any comments anybody? Edwin Bryant, Columbia University
Tony Stone
From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Nov 14 13:20:50 1996
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 08:20:50 -0500
Subject: Indologic Eureka
Message-ID: <161227026861.23782.18295712078079365274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dominik and fellow Indology-netters:
I am pleased to announce a successful completion of the task of translating
the text that accompanies the Krannert Museum's 16/17th c. manuscript page
that was posted on the Indology Website on 21 January, 1996.
Annette van der Hoek, an ABD Indologist in the Netherlands [c/o Rene de Bos
], has recently risen to the task of translating
the text, and while its authorship remains unknow, this is what she reads:
nirkhata ne(m)n bhaii cakacuu(m)dhii //52//
pata pare c jha(m)khata mukha dekhyau//
abe ruupa nakha sikha lo(m) pekhyau//
upamaa(m) kahu(m) pata(m)tara kohuu(m)//
sura nara naaga lo(m)ka mana mohuu(m)//
badana kalaa nidhi puurana tarunii//
upamaa(m) aura na kou baranii//
(properly in transcription the t in line 2 and the first one in line 4
should have a dot written underneath as a sign of their retroflex character)
Looking with the eyes I have become blinded.//52//
(But)when the veil fall off I saw her grieving face.
Now,from head to toe her beauty was perceived.
How can I give any adequate comparison;
in my mind I am bewildered as are Gods, men and snakes.
The face of the young woman is like a full moon.
No other comparison can be given.
As to its larger purport, she very graciously adds (after consultation with
an unnamed mentor):
__Although the verse is a description of beauty we do agree (because of the
sadness perceived on the otherwise beautiful lady's face in line 2) that it
is still a Biraha poem (poem of separation) so typical of the Bhaktiperiod
we discussed before and describing the separation of Radha from her beloved
Krsna. (even if it concerned the separation of a more worldy couple it would
still be read as a symbol for Radha-Krsna as well).
__The poet voices his opinion of the almost outer worldly beauty of the lady
described by mouth of one of her lady-friends, a Sakhi (revealed by
grammatical gender). Sakhis are classically the go-betweens between lovers
and ofcourse have the job of consoling the heroine in distress when need be.
So it does seem that the painting (Radha with Sakhis attending on her)
sticks pretty close to the poem but the fact that the verse stops so
suddenly where the painting begins, gives rise to the idea that the painting
is a later addition. (Has the manuscript ever been checked for possible text
underneath the painting?)
__Maybe the painter got the general drift of the poem -that may not have been
exactly in the Hindi he spoke- and thus managed to stay stay quite close to
the text. The fact that the heroine (the taller lady) is still wearing her
veil unlike the one in the poem, suggest this may have been the case.
He did place the scene in the typical "kunj", the grove bordering the
village where Krsna used to meet his beloveds (or where they would stand
waiting for him..)and which -as we discussed before- stands symbol for Krsna
himself.
__We think that possibly the poet wanted to emphasise the contrast between the
heroine's beauty and ,at this particular moment, her sadness; elaborating on
the beauty more in this verse and probably picking up the distinct Biraha
theme and connected sadness in one of the later verses of his undoubtedly
lengthy account. (worse than this mail)
__As far as placement in time is concerned we suggest the 16th or 17th
century, just so as not to assume we have made the rare find of a 15th
century manuscript and based somewhat on the handwriting. More detailed
study of the handwriting and the paper would naturally lead to a more
precise estimate.
>It's nice when these new media of ours actually help with real
>intellectual issues (INDOLOGY is surprisingly good at this, I think).
>
>Let me know when you have pulled together the responses, and have a
>"siddhaanta"saastra", and I can post it with your original image for a few
>weeks, before withdrawing the stuff, perhaps.
>
>Best wishes,
>Dominik [on October 29th]
P.S. I would be remiss not to add thanks also to Y. Malaiya,
, who also provided a reading on August 29th. As
his contained a few unresolved questions of construction I hadn't posted
further notice when Annettee stepped forward. By way of token
compensation, however, I must urge everyone with graphical browsing
capability to take a look at his own COMPREHENSIVE Website devoted to the
_Languages and Scripts of India_,
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/scripts.html. It includes links to
several other manuscript illustrations as well.
From chattrj at is3.nyu.edu Thu Nov 14 14:53:56 1996
From: chattrj at is3.nyu.edu (chattrj at is3.nyu.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 09:53:56 -0500
Subject: [Q] India Office Library in London
Message-ID: <161227026863.23782.15318019686161091692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>I am planning to visit India Off. Library in London during my trip to U.K.
>Could someone please provide information about its location, opening times,
>whether photocopying facilities are available, etc. etc.!
The hours of IOL are 9 am--5:30 pm, I believe. It's located at the British
Library's Orbit House on the South side of the Thames, on Blackfriars Road.
The exact address is 197 Blackfriars Road, London SE1 8NG. The closest Tube
stations are Waterloo (on the Northern and Bakerloo line) and Blackfriars
(on the District and Circle lines). It's closer to Waterloo but the walk
over the Blackfriars Bridge is quite pleasant, if the weather is pleasant,
too! The telephone number is 0171-412-7000. You can e-mail them at
"oioc-enquiries at bl.uk" with your questions. I don't think they have a
website and even if they do it's not very good, but it's worth checking with
them. Yes, photocopying facilities are available, but don't bank on it
because it is 20 p per page on the self-service machine and more if they
have to do it for you. Depending on how old your requested books are, they
might not allow you to use the self-service machine, in which case it not
only gets expensive, you lose time too, since the turn-around time is
normally 24 hours! A good idea is to use a lap-top computer (they have a
special room for lap-top users) and/or use a small tape recorder into which
you could whisper-in your readings and transcribe them down later (I have
done that and it works!).
Good luck!
:Sudipto Chatterjee
New York University
_____________________________________________
"[I]t only takes two generations to make anything traditional:
naturally enough, since that is the sense of tradition as active
process." --Raymond Williams
_____________________________________________
100 Bleecker Street, Apt. #7C, New York, NY 10012
Tel: (212) 979-6466 Fax: (212) 998-1855
From athr at loc.gov Thu Nov 14 15:49:11 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:49:11 -0500
Subject: AlAta, ulkA, ulmuka
Message-ID: <161227026865.23782.11129747824976234417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear colleagues,
A private scholar without access to a really good academic library or
email has asked me to post a query. Have there been any articles or other
writings on the etymology of these Sanskrit words, alAta 'firebrand,'
ulkA 'meteor,' and ulmuka, 'firebrand' since Mayrhofer discussed them in
Kurtzgefasstes etymologisches woerterbuch des altindischen in 1951?
Mayrhofer can only cite a couple of very tentative articles for each.
Could there be a non-IE source?
Thanks for your help.
Allen W. Thrasher
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4814
tel. (202) 707-5600
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov
From pventhb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 14 09:56:17 1996
From: pventhb at xs4all.nl (pventhb at xs4all.nl)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 10:56:17 +0100
Subject: subodha taraha se bAtacita karanA
Message-ID: <161227026858.23782.11353821239064068747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>I believe that my original statement, along with this elaboration (sorry for
>this apparently necessary lengthiness), still holds good. But if it is not
>politically correct for an Indologist to speak about the majority of the people
>of India - or if we are not supposed to look at what actually happens in India
>- or if we should not question the "cultural spread" of Hindi (which I did when
>I wrote about the now banished i[...] c[...]) - or if we should hush up that
>people have died for the official recognition of their languages and for the
>creation of linguistic states - or if we should not wonder why the value of
>Indian banknotes is printed on them in so many languages (remember our earlier
>postings?) - or if all this has already been discussed, or if persons in
>INDOLOGY start yelling at each other or bash or accuse others of bashing, -
>well, then we can discuss on-line libraries, fonts, and other nice things. :-)
>
Robert Zydenbos
As the urheber of the Cash Cow thread which spun out into the int. conv.
discussion, I might add that the things brought up in the recent postings
seem to proove the point that I made. Hindi/Urdu and its linguistic, social
and cultural history is an integral part of South Asian culture along with
the histories of other languages and regional cultures. By reducing teaching
Hindi to the level of learning the modern language of India the linguistic
map is simplified beyond recognition. For every pupil of Hindi it is
worthwhile to learn of the development of the language, the relationships
with Middle Indian languages and early NIA-literature, and the influence of
Persian vocabulary and idioms. This will certainly make one respond more
critically to voices that equate Hindi with Hindu.
The essence of the conversational issue is that there are, and have always
been, many different registers in the use of language within a community and
between different communities. The persianised Urdu of poetry and
theological discussions is Swahili to any speaker of Hindi, yet it is the
same language. The mullah and the Hindi-speaker, if they live in contiguous
social environments, can chat easily in an everyday register. The
Sanskritised Hindi of grammarians and literary scholars is Norwegian to a
speaker of Urdu in -say- Lucknow. Perhaps the Nepali mentioned in previous
postings could get around in Delhi if they only knew some simple Hindi
phrases in the right register ... etc. etc.(which is what most foreigners in
India do succesfully).
Understanding the nature of this linguistic (and cultural) diversity is what
the study of modern languages and literatures of India is about, in my
opinion. Apart from the political implications of language in a modern
nationstate, this is a situation that is not so very far removed from the
interaction of Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit and Munda languages in earlier
periods of Indian culture. The issue should therefore appeal to every
Indologist.
Thomas de Bruijn
From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 19:24:01 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 11:24:01 -0800
Subject: [Q] India Office Library in London
Message-ID: <161227026868.23782.7091618274218001142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In addition to Sudipto Chatterjee's useful information, I would also urge
that you contact them to ascertain the plans for shifting the India Office
collections to the new British Library St. Pancras site. At one point I
was told it would likely be sometime in 1997, but my recollections of the
move from Westminster to Orbit House, lead to the notion that it would be
wise to check once, and check again later.
Frank Conlon
University of Washington
p.s. Also, if you go, be sure to obtain information in advance regarding
the documentation which is desirable to obtain a reader's ticket.
From sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de Thu Nov 14 11:59:58 1996
From: sreeni at ktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 12:59:58 +0100
Subject: [Q] India Office Library in London
Message-ID: <161227026859.23782.10103088129639788551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Greetings!
I am planning to visit India Off. Library in London during my trip to U.K.
I tried to locate their web page but with no success. Do they have one?
Could someone please provide information about its location, opening times,
whether photocopying facilities are available, etc. etc.!
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Sreenivas
--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
From Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au Thu Nov 14 02:03:57 1996
From: Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au (Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 13:03:57 +1100
Subject: ????Cash Cows for Hindi teachers?????
Message-ID: <161227026854.23782.604922538412883406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Reply to Richard Barz' reply to Zydenbos' reply to Wujastyk:
>
>>It's fashionable in some circles, for ideological and other reasons, to
>>indulge in Hindi-bashing. But, sorry, it just isn't true that "the
>>>percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
>>>conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed". In fact, if one ignores
>>>the artificial divisions between Hindi, filmi Hindi, Hindustani and Urdu
>>>and just calls it all Hindi, then Hindi is the only South Asian language
>>>in which one can have any kind of conversation, intelligent or not, any
>>>where in India, Pakistan or Nepal. In fact, since English really is the
>>>language of a tiny elite, Hindi is the only language in which one can have
>>>any chance of having a conversation anywhere in India. Naturally, Tamil,
>>>Gujarati, Bengali and so on are fine languages every bit the equal of
>>>Hindi but none of them have any where near the geographical and cultural
>>>spread of Hindi.
>>
>>Richard Barz
>>Richard.Barz at anu.edu.au
>
>--I am a teacher of Urdu (and to a certain extent of Hindi) by profession,
>but contest Richard Barz' statement. I will restrict myself to a subject on
>which I can speak from experience: Nepali. Hindi is not the cultural
>language of Nepal, Nepali is, and it has the vocabulary and grammatical
>flexibility to handle all the topics I could think of discussing during a
>two year stay (doing lexicographic research). The more abstract vocabulary
>comes mostly from Sanskrit, but so does that of Hindi.
>
>With best wishes,
>
>Ruth Schmidt
Reply to Ruth Schmidt,
I apologise for my phrasing. My intention was to not to claim that Nepali
isn't the primary language of Nepal, but to state that it is possible to
find far more speakers of Hindi in Nepal than of any other language not
belonging to that country.
Richard Barz
From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 23:11:56 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 15:11:56 -0800
Subject: Oriental & India Office Collections moving information
Message-ID: <161227026876.23782.5971331886413854199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Colleagues:
Having raised the caution flag earlier today, I checked on the British
Library web site and found the following:
Oriental & India Office Collections
_________________________________________________________________
To assist those planning to use the Oriental & India Office
Collections during 1998 or 1999 the following information is provided
about the transfer of the Oriental & India Office Collections from
Orbit House, 197 Blackfriars Road, to the new British Library building
at St Pancras, Euston Road, London NW1.
* The move of the OIOC collections is expected to take place over a
9-month period between Spring 1998 and Spring 1999
* The Reading Room at Orbit House will remain open until the start
of the move, but with some material being unavailable during the
last 3 months
* There will be no Reading Room service from OIOC collections for a
period of 4 months from shortly after the start of the move
* The new Oriental and India Office Reading Room in the St Pancras
building will open at the end of this closed period, but some
material may still not be available initially
* Full services from all parts of the collections will be resumed
within 5 months of the opening of the new Reading Room
Enquiries and photographic service
Every effort will be made to maintain other Oriental & India Office
Collections services as normally as possible during 1998 and 1999, but
there may well be delays in answering enquiries by letter, fax or
e-mail during this period, and the processing of reprographic /
photographic orders may well also be delayed.
Closure of other departments and transfer of their collections to St Pancras
Music Collections
Map Library
Department of Manuscripts
Philatelic Collections
Further information
The information presented here reflects the current state of knowledge
about the transfer of materials to St Pancras. If you have any further
questions, however, or wish to be kept informed either by post or
email, please contact
Oriental & India Office Collections
British Library
197 Blackfriars Road
London SE1 8NG
Tel +44 (0)171-412 7811
Fax +44 (0)171-412 7641
Email oioc-move at bl.uk
September 1996
From Portico - The British Library's Online Information Server
_________________________________________________________________
Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thu Nov 14 21:52:13 1996
From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 15:52:13 -0600
Subject: Q: IOL catalog
Message-ID: <161227026871.23782.5586060137152018986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
11/13/96
Have heard that India Office Library has several Tamil booklets,
small pamplets etc., British library published a Second Supplementary Catalog
of Tamil books only upto 1960(?) in 1981.
Is there an updated catalog covering old British Museum & IOL collections
either online or in print?
Thanks,
N. Ganesan
From Jerry.Losty at mail.bl.uk Thu Nov 14 16:41:35 1996
From: Jerry.Losty at mail.bl.uk (Jerry.Losty at mail.bl.uk)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 16:41:35 +0000
Subject: [Q] India Office Library in London
Message-ID: <161227026866.23782.10803368269828868700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Sreenivas enquired about the web-site of the India Office Library in London.
That Library is now part of the British Library Oriental and India Office
Collections, and it may be contacted by e-mail at:
oioc-enquiries at bl.uk
The web site is at:
http://portico.bl.uk/oioc/
Jerry Losty
e-mail: jerry.losty at bl.uk
From asia at server.uwindsor.ca Thu Nov 14 22:10:39 1996
From: asia at server.uwindsor.ca (Inst. Of Asian Cultures)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 17:10:39 -0500
Subject: TOC - BORI
Message-ID: <161227026873.23782.15053736215402298222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
File: BORI95.dos
To: Fellow Indologists.
FYI
Here is the TofC of the 1995 Annals (vol. LXXVI) of the BORI:
- Tectonic upheavals in the Indus region and some Rgvedic hymns
(Part IV) by P.V. Pathak
- The Maitrayaniya Padapatha, by Bhagyashree Bhagwat
- Some observations on the Mathurjhari plates of Vakataka
Prthivisena Ii, year 17, by Ajay Mitra Shastri
- Main trends in the historiograpgy of the early Maurya empire
since independence, by Shankar Goyal
- Taxation in Kautilya Arthasastra, by Surendra Nath Mital
- Structural and semantic aspects of the Dvandva compound, by V.V.
Bhandare
- Studies on Bhartrhari, 7: Grammar as the door to liberation, by
Johannes Bronkhorst
- Ramavatara recycled, by Vidyut Aklujkar
- Freedom and equality in Vedantic and Buddhist traditions with
special reference to certain asymmetry in the Jivanmukta and
Bodhisattva ideal, by G. C. Nayak
- Decoding Manu's eulogy and censure of women, by Shruti S.
Pradhan
- The Manduka-Sukta from biological point of view, by B.V.
Kolhatkar
- Influence of listeners on Bana Bhatta _Harsacaritam_, by
Vasantkumar M. Bhatt
Plus several book reviews.
From pf at cix.compulink.co.uk Thu Nov 14 19:44:00 1996
From: pf at cix.compulink.co.uk (pf at cix.compulink.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 19:44:00 +0000
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026869.23782.18369206871783703388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In-Reply-To:
Really bizarre stuff on this list!
Peter
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Fri Nov 15 04:43:43 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 23:43:43 -0500
Subject: DETAILS: 2nd Dowry & Bride Burning Conf.
Message-ID: <161227026877.23782.17068466513084860696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Please note the corrected dates/weekdays:
----------------------------------------
THE SECOND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON
DOWRY AND BRIDE-BURNING IN INDIA
Friday Nov. 22 - Sunday Nov. 24, 1996
Emerson Hall 101, Harvard University
According to the Home Ministry, Govt. of India, the number of dowry deaths
was c. 5000 in previous years. A conference was held last year at Harvard
last year with the participation of Indian legeal experts in order to to
analyze the problem and to explore possible solutions. A follow-up
workshop is to be held now, with contributions by the following
participants:
Satya Agarwal, Rochester, NY
Partha Banerjee, David Axelrod Institute, Albany, NY
Pt. Dharamjit Jigyasu, Arya Samaj, New York
Enrica Garzilli, University of Perugia, Italy
Julia Leslie, London University, UK
Werner Menski, London University, UK
Bisram Rambilass, Durban University, South Africa
Joshua Rubenstein, Amnesty International, USA
Himendra Thakur, ISADABII, USA
Michael Witzel, Harvard University, MA
Registration: Friday, November 22, 7 p.m., Emerson Hall 101, Harvard
University.
Registration is free.
Begin: Friday, Nov. 22, 7:30 p.m.
Detailed Program:
================
Friday,
NOVEMBER 22, 7 p.m. Registration
7:15 M. Witzel, Harvard U:
Opening/The Format of the Conference.
7.30 Bisram Rambilass, Durban U.:
The Inter-Relationships between Caste and Dowry among South Africans.
8:00 Julia Leslie, London U.
The UK Working Group on Dharma and Gender: A Focus on Dowry.
8.30: Himendra Thakur, ISADABBI
Residential Training Centers: A Practical Solution to the Problem of Dowry
and Bride Burning.
8:45 Werner Menski, London U.
Legal strategies for Curbing the Dowry Problem.
9:15 Announcements for Saturday's meeting
Saturday,
NOVEMBER 23: WORKSHOP
9:30 Registration
10:00 Michael Witzel, Harvard U.
Summary of last year's conference.
10:30 Pandit Dharamjit Jigyasu, Arya Samaj NY
Astanga Yoga, a path of self-improvement and its relevance for the problem
of Dowry Deaths
11:00 Julia Leslie, London U.
Questions and Anwers on:
The UK Working Group on Dharma and Gender: A Focus on Dowry.
11:30 Partha Banerjee, Albany
Questions and Answers on:
Practical Solutions to the Problem of Dowry and Bride Burning.
12:00 Lunch Break
1:30 Enrica Garzilli, Perugia U (to be read)
Human Rights, Western Rights, Indian Constitutional Rights and Women
Rights.
2:00 Werner Menski, London U.
Questions and Answers on:
Legal strategies for Curbing the Dowry Problem.
2:30 Joshua Rubenstein, Amnesty International, USA
Atrocities on Women: A World Phenomenon.
3:00 Coffee break
3:30 Satya Agrawal, Rochester NY
Witness Accounts: The Cases of Sangeeta and other Women.
4:00 Bisram Rambilass, Durban U.:
Questions and Answers on:
The Inter-Relationships between Caste and Dowry among South Africans.
4:30 Himendra Thakur, ISADABBI
Resolutions
5:00 Announcements for a continuation of the workshop on Sunday morning.
(details to follow)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For further information, please contact:
Prof. M. Witzel Mr. H. B. Thakur
Chair, Committee on Chair, Board of Directors
South Asian Studies Internat. Society Against
Harvard University Bride Burning in India, Inc.
Conference Office: 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA
Phone: 617-496-8570 (M. Witzel)
508-546-7354 (H. Thakur)
Fax: 508-646-6981
Mailing address: P.O.Box 8766, Salem, MA 01971, USA
Sponsored by:
Committee on International Society
South Asian Studies Against Dowry and
Harvard University Bride Burning in India
==============================================================================
Details to follow; watch also www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Nov 15 15:07:41 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 10:07:41 -0500
Subject: lecturer in Hindi-Urdu at Michigan
Message-ID: <161227026881.23782.9086647438488784020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
DEPARTMENT OF ASIAN LANGUAGES AND CULTURES
THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN
seeks candidates for
LECTURER IN HINDI-URDU
The Department of Asian Languages an Cultures, University of Michigan,
seeks candidates for a position (on a three year contract) as Lecturer in
Hindi-Urdu beginning in the fall term, 1997. Desired qualifications
include experience in teaching at United States institutions, training in
"proficiency" teaching methodology, and familiarity with the literary
traditions of Northern India and Pakistan. Teaching duties will primarily
consist of elementary an/or intermediate level language courses. Direct
letters of application with CV, sample lesson plan or syllabus, and the
names of three persons willing to write letters of recommendation to:
Chair of the Hindi-Urdu Lecturer Search Committee
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
University of Michigan
3070 Frieze Building
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285, USA
Phone: (313) 764-8286
Fax: (313) 647-0157
Applications should be received by February 1, 1997.
The University of Michigan is an equal opportunity, affirmative action
employer.
For specific questions, please contact Professor Madhav Deshpande
Email address: mmdesh at umich.edu
From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Fri Nov 15 10:11:16 1996
From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 11:11:16 +0100
Subject: absence
Message-ID: <161227026879.23782.6936598908492531308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear friends,
may be reached by snail mail at the address Bhandarkar Oriental Research
Institute, Law College Road, Pune 411004. I hope to see many of you in Pune
and/or Bangalore.
Jan E.M. Houben, Ph.D.
Research Fellow,
Leiden University, Kern Institute,
P.O. Box 9515,
2300 RA - Leiden.
From gjh8 at columbia.edu Fri Nov 15 16:42:07 1996
From: gjh8 at columbia.edu (Gary J Hausman)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 11:42:07 -0500
Subject: Q: IOL catalog
Message-ID: <161227026882.23782.9330722798865074414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Ganesan,
I don't know whether this stuff is either online or in print, but
I can give you bibliographial references for those catalogs that I read
through during a visit to Orbit House in 1992:
1) A Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the British Museum,
Compiled by L. D. Barnett & G. O. Pope, 1909.
2) A Supplementary Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the
British Museum, Compiled by L. D. Barnett, 1931.
3) Second Supplementary Catalogue of Tamil Books in the British Library
Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books by Albertine Guar,
The British Library, 1980.
There was also a catalogue consisting of xeroxes of file cards
relating to Tamil books and, since I was concentrating on printed texts, I
did not check out unpublished manuscripts. I suspect there is probably
material in private collections there also.
Gary Hausman
Columbia University
On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Ganesan wrote:
>
> 11/13/96
>
> Have heard that India Office Library has several Tamil booklets,
> small pamplets etc., British library published a Second Supplementary Catalog
> of Tamil books only upto 1960(?) in 1981.
>
> Is there an updated catalog covering old British Museum & IOL collections
> either online or in print?
>
> Thanks,
> N. Ganesan
>
>
>
>
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri Nov 15 12:55:54 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 11:55:54 -0100
Subject: bAtacita karanA; what is a register?
Message-ID: <161227026884.23782.15001918875805535740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 14 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Th. de Bruijn)
pn> By reducing teaching
pn> Hindi to the level of learning the modern language of India
pn> the linguistic
pn> map is simplified beyond recognition.
"The" modern language of India... :-|
pn> The essence of the conversational issue is that there are,
pn> and have always
pn> been, many different registers in the use of language within
pn> a community and
pn> between different communities. The persianised Urdu of
pn> poetry and
pn> theological discussions is Swahili to any speaker of Hindi,
pn> yet it is the
pn> same language. The mullah and the Hindi-speaker, if they
pn> live in contiguous
pn> social environments, can chat easily in an everyday
pn> register. The
pn> Sanskritised Hindi of grammarians and literary scholars is
pn> Norwegian to a
pn> speaker of Urdu in -say- Lucknow. [...]
I don't know whether the comparisons / metaphors (Swahili vs. Hindi, Norwegian
vs. Urdu) are happy ones here, in view of what you are apparently trying to say
about the various 'registers' of one language. It looks as if you agree with my
position (which I have not yet voiced here) that Urdu and Hindi etc. are
different languages - for precisely the reasons which you mention here.
It is largely a matter of definitions, of course, and the dividing lines
between registers / dialects / etc. on the one hand and languages on the other
are something about which people begin violent discussions. The average speaker
of Dutch can read Afrikaans rather well without any special study, and some
Afrikaans poets are read in the Netherlands; but when an Afrikaner speaks
Afrikaans on Dutch television (e.g. in a news broadcast), subtitles are
provided because the average Dutchman finds it so hard to follow. So is
Afrikaans a Dutch dialect, or a distinct language? (The official view is
'language' - which I think is correct.) On a certain level of simplicity, short
sentences in Dutch and Afrikaans are practically identical, and the languages
are mutually intelligible. But would this make them 'registers of the same
language'?
I recall witnessing a wedding in Mussoori in 1978, where a priest from Benares
explained the wedding mantras in 'Hindi' - and I was one of the very few
present who could understand what he was saying (and I explained it in English
to a fellow, who translated it for others in a 'different Hindi'). (So what
does this indicate about R. Barz' "cultural spread" of Hindi in India? Mussoori
is in the so-called 'Hindi belt'. For southerners, Hindi is a foreign language
- more foreign than English is. Hindi does not solve India's language problem,
but aggravates it.)
It may be good to call attention to Suniti Kumar Chatterjee's book _Indo-Aryan
and Hindi_ (Calcutta: KLM). Here we see a serious Indian scholar who states
that Avadhi, Braj etc. are not "Old Hindi", as raa.s.trabhaa.saa propagandists
have it, but different languages, just as Portuguese is not "Old Spanish".
(This is perhaps a brave thing to state in India nowadays.) Cf. the efforts of
speakers of Rajasthani and Maithili to have their languages recognized (which
the Sahitya Akademi has already done, I believe).
Robert Zydenbos
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Fri Nov 15 18:30:46 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 13:30:46 -0500
Subject: Skt. Job offering at Harvard
Message-ID: <161227026886.23782.17676423794118092926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
SEARCH for Assist. Prof. of Sanskrit:
I transmit the following item which is being published in Higher
Education / NY Times, etc. these days:
===========================================================================
ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES
Assistant Professor for three-year employment (with possibility of re-
appointment). Starting with the 1997/98 academic year.
The main task of the successful candidate will be to teach undergraduate
and graduate courses in Classical Sanskrit language and literature. The
department welcomes scholars with expertise in philosophy, grammar,
history, etc. and in other South Asian languages and regional
specializations.
Teaching experience will play a major role in the decision. The candidate
must have completed all formal work toward the Ph.D.
Harvard University is an equal opportunity and affirmative action
employer: women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Application
deadline is January 8, 1997.
For more information on the position and for benefit policies, contact P.
Oktor Skjaervo, at (617) 496 5756, Department of Sanskrit and Indian
Studies, Harvard University, 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA.
fax 617- 496 8571.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<< Privately, I add the following note: "3 years with poss. of
re-appointment" NORMALLY means possibility to teach 3 + max. 5 years as
Ass./Assoc. Prof. -- Not an *automatic* "tenure track" position. Ask the
admin. for details! -- MW >>
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Fri Nov 15 18:31:35 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 13:31:35 -0500
Subject: yabh/yiiyaps-
Message-ID: <161227026887.23782.7106519638929414631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, George Thompson wrote:
> I'd like to apologize to Michael Witzel for talking about things which
> clearly he knows more about than I do.
Apology accepted, though I don't know for what. Wem der Schuh passt....
While philology is not, to quote one of my colleagues here, "the study of *a*
word" -- *this* word, but occasionally precisely this is required, as, to
re-quote our 1988 symposium, "philology is kulturwissenschaft based on
texts". And since yabh also is part of culture, philology occasionally
involves this and similar words.
I must confess that I don't know whether, as philologist, and even while
studying these rather short words, I really know more about this topic
than G. Thompson, unless he should obliquely refer to my sustained experience
here which indeed has mostly included the passive (though not the
desiderative passive).
But what to do -- ke garne, amerika jasto cha -- when,
according to that great observer of American popular culture, Eddi Murphy,
his foreign admirers tend to address him on the street with the
imperative, since they think that it is an American greeting.
However, I *can* readily confess that I had to study the Vedic side of the
coin recently when I had to write on Saramaa, the cunning bitch of the
Lord of the Powers that Be. (RV 10.108, JB 2.440).
----
Finally, a note to Dominik:
If I understood him correctly: Yes, "obscenities" certainly are different
from erotic topics (Fiser/Wezler deal with both), but the word in question
ALWAYS has been regarded as low level/vulgar/obscene, as ancient and later
evidence show: at other occasions the Sruti uses sam-gam, sam-i etc.
("sangam hogaa vaa nahin?" -- Lata sings, to quote an old film song (1959?),
for the Hindi-wallahs among us).
That's why I quoted some of the Sruti evidence: we find *intended*
vulgarities/obscenities even here, not to speak of the dialogue in the
Srautasutras at the solstice rituals. Remember the Holi discussion? -- Just
like in modern Nepal where such (Newari) words are openly used on the
street in Holi-like festivals *only*, they were openly employed at certain
Vedic rituals, -- for the intended effect.
For similar reasons, conversely, we do *not* find in the Veda certain
"vulgar" words, such as pardati, not even of horses, but only in
Dhatupatha +, though this word must of course have been used then: it is
an old IE word (cf. Avesta and beyond, up to Engl.: IE *perd/pezd), and
consequently, very much loved by UK and US comedians.
MW.
From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 15 22:19:21 1996
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 14:19:21 -0800
Subject: Query on translation of "anushAsana-parvan"
Message-ID: <161227026891.23782.13153018262448224119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 07:33 PM 11/13/96 GMT, James Fitzgerald wrote:
>
>> M.N. Dutt's translation is useful, especially because he gives verse numbers
>> (not from the critical edition, of course). Actually, Roy's translation is
>> largely based on Dutt's.
>
>It is the other way around. The Ganguli/Roy translation began publication
>in 1884 (according to Winternitz, 1972 Oriental Books Reprint of his
>History of Indian Literature, vol. 1, p. 327, nt. 1) and is a serious and
>scholarly translation, though far from perfect. M. N. Dutt's rendition
>began to appear in 1895, and it is hard to avoid the impression that it is
>anything but a slight rewording, verse after verse after verse, of
>Ganguli's efforts.
I stand corrected! I had noticed the obvious similarity of both
translations, but assumed (incorrectly, as I now learned) that Dutt's was
the earliest.
>Some of the older editions, and some reprints, of the Ganguli/Roy
>translation do contain verse numbers and Ganguli's notes. The "third
>improved edition: January, 1975" of Munshiram Manorharlal's vol. VIII,
>contains notes. I can't remember which editions contained the sloka
>numbers.
I was not aware of this. The editions of Roy/Ganguli I have used do not
have verse numbers.
>I have never found the slightest glimmer of a difference in the
>interpretation of a difficult pada between Dutt's rendering and Ganguli's.
>Dutt often uses slightly different words, but I have never seen an
>instance where he offers a different understanding. Of course I stopped
>consulting Dutt's rendition long ago; perhaps there is more value in it
>than I saw.
I can offer an example of a verse where the two translations differ, and in
which I think Dutt's is better.
Ganguli/Roy (vol. 10:566, Oriental Publishing Co. ed., no date):
"Upon the expiration of Dwapara, the Yuga that will set in will be called
Kali yuga which will come under the influence of Tishya constellation."
Dutt 12.341.81:
"Upon the termination of Dwapara, the cycle that will set in will be called
Tish, and it will come with Kali walking in the van."
My translation of CE 12.327.76a:
"Then, when the TiSya [Kali] yuga arrives preceded by misfortune/conflict
(kali)..."
Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri Nov 15 20:34:10 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 20:34:10 +0000
Subject: [Majordomo file: list 'sanskrit-digest' file 'v01.n444' (fwd)]
Message-ID: <161227026889.23782.3729815970808131693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
------- Start of forwarded message -------
From: samhita
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:05:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: samhita - Vedic electronic magazine
- - --=====================_847782450==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear friends !!
You may be interested in joining this effort. If so, please join the mailing
list by contacting samhita at mindspring.com
- - --=====================_847782450==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="S_INTRO.TXT"
Samhita - Vedic electronic magazine
_______ _________________________
***** samhita is all set to roll out its first issue soon, Join the *****
***** mailing list by sending a message to samhita at mindspring.com *****
What is samhita ??
- - --- samhita is a vedic word. The word means a congregation of several ---
- - --- independent units. Like any other vedic word, it has also got much ---
- - --- more deeper meaning !! ---
SrI ViSwanAtha acyuta dEva rAyalu, former chief engineer, Doordarshan of
India, and the son of the first gjnAnapITha recipient in telugu late SrI
ViSwanAtha satyanarayana, is an accomplished writer, author of many books
and novels in English and Telugu. He has been doing active research in
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many new and innovative ideas to save the vedic literature and culture.
SrI Rayalu has an Engineering background and has gathered vast experience
by being closely associated with mahatma gandhi, SrI Sarvepalli RadhakRshNa,
the first vice president of India and other such eminent personalities and
stalwarts while on his job and otherwise and has acquired a tremendous
wealth of knowledge that any one can be benefitted with. While carrying
fundamental and active research on vedas and vedic science, he has published
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He sees things from a different angle and explains them in an easily
comprehensible way that one wonders how those points appeared to be
elusive before, after getting to know them through Sri Rayalu.
His ideas and his research are well received and highly applauded in many
international conferences and symposiums including the recently held
international conference on Indo saraswati civilization in Atlanta in
October, 1996, where he presented a paper on "Vedic Language".
Vedic language is NOT Sanskrit. Vedas have their own language. Vedas and
their message are not limited to a RELIGION, a LANGUAGE or a SECTION
OF THE SOCIETY and VEDIC VOICE should NOT BE misunderstood for dogmatic
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Samhita - a Vedic magazine in cyber space - is rolling out soon, its first
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such interesting and enlightening topics among other things. SrI rAyalu says
that one has to read the Vedas on his own to know what is in there in addition
to reading the commentaries written by others. He has collected and read a
lot on Vedas including the Sanskrit manuscripts and numerous commentaries
from Sankara BAshyam, yAgjnavalkyam, prAtiSAkhyam to the views of MAX MULLER
and other westerners who did some work on Vedas. SrI Rayalu after his
extensive reading and research on the subject, speaks of how much of a TRUTH
is involved in popular beliefs and misbeliefs on Vedas and their content.
"samhita" is a magazine in cyber space that is being published in ENGLISH
from -- samhita at mindspring.com -- and the later issues are planned to roll
out once every three/four weeks. This Vedic electronic magazine will be
a group of Vedic ideas, one small collection at a time. Hence its name is
SAMHITA. The aim of this samhita is to combine with the intellectual samhitas
of each of its readers and become a bigger samhita. It is a free mailing list
and anyone can share these ideas with anyone interested in spreading the
vedic message.
This magazine is maintained as a FREE electronic mailing list but any
discussions/criticism/questions/answers/comments about samhita and about
the issues published in samhita are encouraged through this mailing list
ONLY. If you are interested in this effort, please join the mailing list
by sending an e-mail to samhita at mindspring.com, mentioning your name and
return e-mail address in your message.
regards...
- - - Ram (Ramabhadra Dokka from samhita at mindspring.com)
P.S. : Please spread this exciting word to your interested friends...
- - --=====================_847782450==_--
------- End of forwarded message -------
From ARB at maestro.com Sun Nov 17 15:51:54 1996
From: ARB at maestro.com (ARB)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 10:51:54 -0500
Subject: booklist with old South Asia available
Message-ID: <161227026895.23782.2017893125194246431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Asian Rare Books has just issued a booklist not yet
at our website with some op/old Indolgy which we gladly
post at your request by email Attachment.
Send request for this list to us at ARB at maestro.com
Stephen Feldman, Asian Rare Books(New York City)
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/
From mkv1 at york.ac.uk Sun Nov 17 07:18:15 1996
From: mkv1 at york.ac.uk (Mahendra Verma)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 12:18:15 +0500
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026893.23782.6328516968553308751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Robert Zydenbos' follow up, and reiteration of the earlier belief about Hindi,
and the further elaboration of it needs a brief response:
1. It seems a fashion from time to time to talk in terms of " Hindi as a tool
of oppression". It may be a legitimate question to ask such a research
question, but totally meaningless to base judgements with no backing of
sociolinguistic research. It is not a question of making a politically
incorrect statement, but of making statements which are based on impressions
and heresay.Where does the data on 'hate' and contempt' come from ?
2. English does not, and can not facilitate the vast majority of individuals
and communities in India to carry out discourse. The elite and the privileged
only represent a tiny minority of the population. I am not making any claims
for Hindi other than what Barz has done.
3. The verdict on the ability of Hindi speakers to engage in an intelligent
discourse has now moved to the question of its modernity. If in the west they
think that Hindi is "the" modern language of India, it most certainly is
wrong.All the languages of India, in particular the regional ones which have
been assigned the task of education and administration are developing to meet
the demnands made on them. I have not come across a linguist who has made the
claim about Hindi.
mahendra
From asia at server.uwindsor.ca Sun Nov 17 21:21:46 1996
From: asia at server.uwindsor.ca (Inst. Of Asian Cultures)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 16:21:46 -0500
Subject: On Bindi, Tikka or Tilak
Message-ID: <161227026897.23782.17381642156338421702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indologists,
I write this on behalf of a colleague who is not a member of this list.
She says:
I am still looking for documentation on the linkage between the
"tikka" worn on Hindu women's foreheads and the concept of Shakti. I'd
appreciate anything you might be able to tell me. Keep in touch.
I remember having read a few posts on this subject but I am not sure if
they appeared on this list. Since I have been unable to search the
Indology archives (I have misplaced the http://... address), hence this
request for assistance. Would appreciate your indulgence in this matter.
Thanks.
Sushil Jain
asia at uwindsor.ca
From thompson at jlc.net Sun Nov 17 22:30:53 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 18:30:53 -0400
Subject: yabh/yiiyaps-
Message-ID: <161227026900.23782.11854120918609675255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, George Thompson wrote:
>
>> I'd like to apologize to Michael Witzel for talking about things which
>> clearly he knows more about than I do.
>
>Apology accepted, though I don't know for what. Wem der Schuh passt....
>
Well, I'll try to remember not to use irony as a rhetorical device any
more, at least with MW [so much for philology, so much for
kulturwissenschaft, so much for dissimulatio ].
Let me be blunt instead.
MW said:
>That's why I quoted some of the Sruti evidence: we find *intended*
>vulgarities/obscenities even here, not to speak of the dialogue in the
>Srautasutras at the solstice rituals. Remember the Holi discussion? -- Just
>like in modern Nepal where such (Newari) words are openly used on the
>street in Holi-like festivals *only*, they were openly employed at certain
>Vedic rituals, -- for the intended effect.
>
>For similar reasons, conversely, we do *not* find in the Veda certain
>"vulgar" words, such as pardati, not even of horses, but only in
>Dhatupatha +, though this word must of course have been used then: it is
>an old IE word (cf. Avesta and beyond, up to Engl.: IE *perd/pezd), and
>consequently, very much loved by UK and US comedians."
When MW is being informative and more or less polite, as he is here, I
value his remarks, but in fact the point about pard- and other "vulgar
"words had already been made.
On the other hand, I find his tirades against American culture and American
scholars both boorish and old [redundant].
In my own discussion of yabh, I have referred to several passages, quoting
them and commenting on them. I don't feel that I need to translate them
into German or Latin to impress MW.
As for Hoffmann's article on yabh-, I have not read it NOT because I can't
read German [don't insult me!], but because I can't afford his expensive
Aufsaetze, and because Michael's student does not deign to respond when I
ask him if he is willing to forward a photocopy to me [in exchange for
monetary compensation for copying and mailing costs]. So much for
collegial cordiality.
So, I'll say it as directly and as honestly as I can: I think that your
tirades, MW, are obnoxious, and that you should stop them.
Sincerely,
GT
From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 18 00:28:26 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 19:28:26 -0500
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227026902.23782.12081368328432232921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I have been trying to remember a verse whose last line goes like
this:
dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati satatam kiirtanastho
m.rdanga.h
If anybody remembers the first three lines, I would be glad to
know. Thanks.
Madhav Deshpande
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun Nov 17 23:12:58 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 00:12:58 +0100
Subject: intelligent conversation
Message-ID: <161227026898.23782.10909404640455312952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 03:25 14.11.96 GMT, you wrote:
>
>I certainly do not mean that Hindi is useless as a medium of communication.
>What I do mean is that there is a Western perception that Hindi is "the" modern
>language of India. My contention is that it is, but only to a very limited
>extent. It may be amusing (?) to note here that, in a parallel case, many
>Indians believe that they can speak English with the rest of the world. But is
>English spoken all across Europe? Yes, in a way; but in another sense: no,
>certainly not. ....
May I ask Robert Zydenbos the following question: Is there any other Indic
language than Hindi that offers a certain amount of "transnational"
communication (and does so better than Hindi)?
His remarks about English are of course correct: Eating dinner at the Musee
d'Orsay yesterday, I excused myself to the waiter for my poor French and he
replied: "Our English is not so good either". But he *was* able to
communicate, and there is a great likelihood that if you come to a European
country the language of which you do not speak, English is your best bet if
you try to use another language. It would seem to me that the same thing
applies to Hindi, and that the study of Hindi for this reason should be a
priority. (Unless some other Indic language is a better means of
communication). Anybody disagree, and if, why?
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Nov 18 16:24:28 1996
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 08:24:28 -0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227026904.23782.17092357105100846307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On 18 Nov, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I have been trying to remember a verse
whose last line goes like this: dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati
satatam kiirtanastho m.rdanga.h . If anybody remembers the first three
lines, I would be glad to know. <
ye.saam ;sriimad-ya;sodaa-suta-pada-kamale naasti bhaktir naraa.naam
ye.saam aabhiira-kanyaa-priya-gu.na-kathane naanuraktaa rasaj;naa /
ye.saa.m ;srii-k.r.s.na-liilaa-lalita-gu.na-rase saadarau naiva kar.nau
dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati satata.m kiirtanastho m.rdanga.h //
Ashok Aklujkar
Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia,
Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Mon Nov 18 15:29:02 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 14:29:02 -0100
Subject: cash cows, i[...] c[...]
Message-ID: <161227026905.23782.15851832602673229727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 17 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Mahendra Verma)
mau> Robert Zydenbos' follow up, and reiteration of the earlier
mau> belief about Hindi,
mau> and the further elaboration of it needs a brief response:
[I apologize again if I have been repeating things stated in (the) earlier
discussion(s). I had disjoined INDOLOGY for a while because I was touring
around without a computer, and I rejoined only very recently.]
mau> 1. It seems a fashion from time to time to talk in terms of
mau> " Hindi as a tool
mau> of oppression". It may be a legitimate question to ask such
mau> a research
mau> question, but totally meaningless to base judgements with
mau> no backing of
mau> sociolinguistic research. It is not a question of making a
mau> politically
mau> incorrect statement, but of making statements which are
mau> based on impressions
mau> and heresay.Where does the data on 'hate' and contempt'
mau> come from ?
Not from the 'Hindi belt', nor from teachers of the "cash-cow language", for
sure. In southern India one finds clear expressions of this. I am very highly
surprised indeed that this matter can at all be spoken of (and apparently
dismissed) as a mere "fashion" (already two persons here have made this
judgment -- without any signs of "backing of research", I may add) and
"hearsay" [Sorry, I suppose you mean "hearsay" - unless you mean "heresy" ;-)]
in INDOLOGY, which I thought was a list of mainly Indologists. Yes, as another
list subscriber has remarked: there is a lot of bizarre stuff on this list.
Anyone who has had an even cursory look at the history of Tamil (sub-)
nationalism will know how much Hindi is hated there. I understand that there
are no longer Hindi news broadcasts on t.v. in Tamilnadu. I do not know whether
this change occurred before or after the Hindi Pracharini Sabha in Chennai
(this city used to be called Madras) was bombed. "Hindi imperialism" is a term
used in Karnataka ("hindi saamraajya~saahi" in Kannada) by authors, scholars,
at least one vice-chancellor of a university, etc. I have made some mention of
this, with references, in my doctoral dissertation, which, deo volente, will
appear in print by the end of this year (I could not find any publisher for it
for years, because it is about mere Kannada literature. Publishers academic as
well as commercial weren't even interested in seeing the manuscript: Kannada is
not a cash cow).
But indeed: from where does one get data? If Western academia thinks that one
can gain direct access to modern 'India' through Hindi alone (because of its
"cultural spread", or something), then hardly anybody will / can study any
other modern Indian language. As a result, hardly anybody will gain access to
the kind of material that reflects anti-Hindi sentiments, and we have a
self-perpetuating ignorance. And the very, very few people who work in
languages other than Hindi have other, nicer things to do rather than keeping
track of anti-Hindi utterances.
In spite of that supposedly great "cultural spread" of Hindi, farmer's son Deve
Gowda could not speak Hindi when he became prime minister (nor could the
previous president), and recently he thought he had to learn it, for which he
was ridiculed in the press (I cannot speak about the Hindi press. There's one
hint for people who want data).
mau> 2. English does not, and can not facilitate the vast
mau> majority of individuals
mau> and communities in India to carry out discourse. The elite
mau> and the privileged
mau> only represent a tiny minority of the population. I am not
mau> making any claims
mau> for Hindi other than what Barz has done.
One of my claims is that Hindi hardly does any better, since in practice it too
is an elite language which creates a new privileged minority. I believe I have
already illustrated this, with my first-hand experiences / hearsay / fashion /
whatever you want to call it.
I have here the 1976 figures of new titles published in India in the four major
publishing languages of that year, viz. in English (6733), Hindi (2235),
Marathi (1290) and Kannada (1261) [my reference here says Indian Express,
17.7.1988. Sorry, I have not noted down the figures for the dozen other
official languages of India. But I believe that Marathi and Kannada already
indicate Hindi's minority status in printed discourse]. I find the three last
figures interesting, and invite anyone to look up the official numbers of
speakers of those languages and then to reflect on the relative intensity of
discourse. (I do not know how many of those Hindi books are government
publications.)
Robert Zydenbos
P.S. 1: (Referring to anti-Hindi sentiment:) Do most Indians really have black
hair? Maybe somebody can provide us with evidence from sociological research
that there is a lot of black hair in India, so that all of us will be convinced
forever. After all, we don't want this to be mere "hearsay" or "fashion". ;-)
P.S. 2: Sorry for the wicked sarcasms, Mahendra and Richard. Nothing personal,
I just had to make them. I do have strong opinions about the subject.
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Mon Nov 18 20:17:59 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 15:17:59 -0500
Subject: question
Message-ID: <161227026907.23782.16538542791838234728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
With respect to Madhav's question about the first lines of:
>> dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati... <<
I don't quite recall from where this comes, and I do not remember
the next two lines, but I *do* remember that it begins with direct speech,
the metrically incorrect line:
bato bataasi jarjara / naiva te mano hrdayam caavidaama //
Hope this helps!
M.W.
On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote:
> I have been trying to remember a verse whose last line goes like
> this:
>
> dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati satatam kiirtanastho
> m.rdanga.h
>
>
> If anybody remembers the first three lines, I would be glad to
> know. Thanks.
> Madhav Deshpande
>
>
>
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Nov 18 22:10:59 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 17:10:59 -0500
Subject: Uniform transliteration of Brahmic scripts
Message-ID: <161227026909.23782.2626926477976747180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> Dravidian: velar fricative alveolars
> P: z(/.) r(/-) n(/-)
> C1: .z _r _n
> C2: z _r _n
Does this mean that the Tamil word for fruit is to transcribed as
`pa.zam'?
If so, this transliteration is ill-advised. It seems that the most
common transliteration is r with two dots underneath. Hock quotes
Krishnamurti as saying that the transcription as .z (and presumably also
zh) `is without strong empirical evidence'. And in my 19 years in
Tamil Nadu, I did not hear it pronounced as a voiced sibilant (as the
transcription suggests) and seldom as a velar fricative. (Though
collapsing it with l, L or y is fairly common).
Can any one tell me how this transcription started. The first time
I saw `tamizh', I burst out laughing because I thought that that the
`zh' was to be pronounced like the Russian letter usually transliterated
as `zh' . I couldn't figure out who came with that one.
> (4)R. Caldwell distinguishes Tam aytam (velar fricative) from visarga.
There is seldom much call for the aytam in Modern Tamil (except that
in borrowed words, `f' is transcribed with aytam+p). But I remember it
as being basically like jiivhamuulya. (And I thought that that was a
velar fricative).
From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Nov 18 23:20:15 1996
From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 17:20:15 -0600
Subject: Q: Proto-Siva
Message-ID: <161227026911.23782.16109871324570963297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Q: Proto-Siva
**************
I read in many books on Hinduism that Siva is a late-comer to the
Hindu Pantheon. Initially, he was not invited for Yagnas, or
given sacrificial offerings. The Daksha myth alludes to that.
Any references on Siva, his origins as a non-vedic deity
and eventual absorption into Hinduism. A. Hiltebeitel
wrote a paper on Indus seal, I think.
N. Ganesan
nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue Nov 19 04:56:20 1996
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 18:56:20 -1000
Subject: cash cows, i[...] c[...]
Message-ID: <161227026915.23782.2870720955160098439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Robert Zydenbos wrote:
> Anyone who has had an even cursory look at the history of Tamil (sub-)
> nationalism will know how much Hindi is hated there. I understand that there
> are no longer Hindi news broadcasts on t.v. in Tamilnadu. I do not know whether
> this change occurred before or after the Hindi Pracharini Sabha in Chennai
> (this city used to be called Madras) was bombed. "Hindi imperialism" is a term
[...etc...]
I am from Tamil Nadu (just want to
establish my impeccable non-Hindi
credentials here). I always felt
that being anti-Hindi was a convenient
tool for politicans to whip up emotion,
rather than something that most people
in TN are really concerned about in
real life.
Of course, it does say something that
emotions CAN be whipped up about this topic.
But, for that matter, in India emotions can
also be whipped up on for being anti-Muslim,
anti-MissWorld, anti-Brahmin, anti-Harijan,
anti-PizzaHut, anti-English, anti-immigrant,
or, indeed, anti- almost anything.
The mere existence of an anti-X emotion
does not mean that it is either justified, or
deserving of sympathy.
Incidentally, as a pucca Tamilian who is
currently busy teaching Tamil to his daughter,
I have nothing against Hindi. I think learning
more languages is a Good Thing. Fanaticism is
a Bad Thing.
fact that ENGLISH is doing far more damage to
Tamil than Hindi ever could. Just go to Madras
and see whether you can buy decent books in
Tamil for children. See how many "educated"
people can conduct an intelligent conversation
in Tamil. Not many. And I can tell you that
it's not Hindi that they're speaking. It's English.
Of course, I have no hard feelings about English,
either. Just pointing out that politicians in
S. India have picked on Hindi just because it's
easier to whip up emotions on that score, not
because Hindi is really doing any damage to anyone.
"Hindi vaazhga" :-) :-) (Hindi zindabad) :-)
Tamizhum vaazhga.
Narayan Sriranga Raja.
________ ________ __ __ ________
| | | | (/ \/ ) | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | _/ __ | |
| | | | (__/ \) | |
/
From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 19 01:58:52 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 20:58:52 -0500
Subject: Verse completion (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227026913.23782.5621649845798613561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I am pleased to forward this posting from Ashok Aklujkar. He has supplied
the first three paadas of the verse which I could not remember. Thanks
Ashok.
Madhav Deshpande
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:30:01 -0800 (PST)
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca
To: mmdesh at umich.edu
Subject: Verse completion
Madhav,
I posted the following to Indology this morning. Witzel's recent posting
makes me think that my message might not have made it to Indology.
On 18 Nov, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I have been trying to remember a verse
whose last line goes like this: dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati
satatam kiirtanastho m.rdanga.h . If anybody remembers the first three
lines, I would be glad to know. <
ye.saam ;sriimad-ya;sodaa-suta-pada-kamale naasti bhaktir naraa.naam
ye.saam aabhiira-kanyaa-priya-gu.na-kathane naanuraktaa rasaj;naa /
ye.saa.m ;srii-k.r.s.na-liilaa-lalita-gu.na-rase saadarau naiva kar.nau
dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati satata.m kiirtanastho m.rdanga.h //
Good wishes, ashok.
From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue Nov 19 01:37:22 1996
From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 00:37:22 -0100
Subject: i[...] c[...] (I thought it was banned?...)
Message-ID: <161227026920.23782.4049304215262068851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Replies to msg 17 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Lars Martin Fosse)
lmfn> May I ask Robert Zydenbos the following question: Is there
lmfn> any other Indic
lmfn> language than Hindi that offers a certain amount of
lmfn> "transnational"
lmfn> communication (and does so better than Hindi)?
A "certain amount"? And do you mean international Indian languages?
Bengali (Bangla Desh).
Punjabi (Pakistan).
Telugu (South Africa).
Gujarati (South Africa, Tanzania; probably no longer in Uganda).
Tamil (Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, South Africa).
There may be other examples too. (I have omitted Urdu here, since some people
evidently think of it as a 'register' or 'artificially distinguished form of
Hindi'.)
I must admit, though, that I do not quite understand the relevance of the word
"transnational" in our context. I thought that Indologists study Indian
languages in order to understand more about India - whether the speakers of any
Indian language claim transnationality or not - and that the significance of a
language for Indology lies not in the number of people who happen to have
settled outside India, but in the access it gives us to Indian history and
culture.
As for "better than Hindi": already in India, Hindi is problematic, as I
mentioned earlier. A Member of the Legislative Assembly from Kerala once told
me that when missives in Hindi come to Kerala from Delhi, they are first
translated into their probably original English before they can be seriously
discussed. (I suppose some will dismiss this as again so much "hearsay" or mere
"impression". Indeed, I have not checked this.)
lmfn> there is a great likelihood that if you
lmfn> come to a European
lmfn> country the language of which you do not speak, English is
lmfn> your best bet if
lmfn> you try to use another language.
I once had to argue with an Italian security official in French at Rome
airport, since he understood no English, German or Dutch. (Sorry if this too is
just an "impression". I did not try Hindi. :-) ) Again, the same with Hindi: it
depends on where you are. In eastern India, Bengali is more useful; in
northwestern Tamilnadu, northern Kerala, southern Maharashtra, Kannada is more
useful.
lmfn> It would seem to me that
lmfn> the same thing
lmfn> applies to Hindi, and that the study of Hindi for this
lmfn> reason should be a
lmfn> priority. (Unless some other Indic language is a better
lmfn> means of
lmfn> communication). Anybody disagree, and if, why?
See above, where I said something about Indology.
Consider: a knowledge of standard modern Kannada gives one access to all the
literature in that language since Basava (12th century). Written Tamil has
changed little since the Na_n_nuul. (N.B.: I have not yet spoken about the
older forms of these languages.) These two languages have the oldest
literatures among the living languages of the subcontinent, and their
Indological import is enormous. And I must say, with humble apologies to
Hindi-lovers, and intending no disrespect whatsoever: Hindi comes nowhere near
this.
What I find utterly depressing in this discussion is that people are using
quantitative arguments in support of Hindi, while I seem to be the only one
(besides Kichessamy) who tries to draw attention to the _qualitative_ side of
communication. To ask an utterly crude, blunt and crucial question: yes, one
can say "caay denaa" at any Indian railway station and actually get tea. So
what? At Miraj station (N.B.: southern Maharashtra) a northerner one time did
just this at a tea stall. The attendant just stared at the man. Then I asked
for tea, in Kannada; I got my tea first, and then the northerner (oh! another
mere impression! sorry!). -- As long as there is a lot of vague,
unsubstantiated talk about artificial distinctions and cultural spread,
without clearly and unambiguously establishing what these talkers talk about
when they say "Hindi", without qualitatively stating which levels of linguistic
competence etc. are meant and desired, then quantitative methods of research
are just not possible (because what will you be measuring?). All this
quantitative, quasi-statistical argumentation, which is intended for
maintaining / augmenting the disproportionate attention given to Hindi in
Western academia, is just quasi-scientific garbage. It may also be garbage
after the standards are stated, but then at least we can reasonably talk about
it. :-)
Best greetings to all,
Robert Zydenbos
From mrabe at artic.edu Tue Nov 19 11:52:12 1996
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 06:52:12 -0500
Subject: Q: Proto-Siva
Message-ID: <161227026930.23782.7666834744289692872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
> Q: Proto-Siva
> **************
>
>I read in many books on Hinduism that Siva is a late-comer to the
>Hindu Pantheon. Initially, he was not invited for Yagnas, or
>given sacrificial offerings. The Daksha myth alludes to that.
>Any references on Siva, his origins as a non-vedic deity
>and eventual absorption into Hinduism. A. Hiltebeitel
>wrote a paper on Indus seal, I think.
>
>N. Ganesan
>nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
Hiltebeitel, Alf. "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through
Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Va-hanas."
Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97
Ganesan, if you have purchased a copy of the following yet, I personally
guarantee that it will warm the cockles of your heart!
Parpola, Asko, Deciphering the Indus script (Cambridge Univer Press,1994)
M. Rabe
From 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Tue Nov 19 14:54:19 1996
From: 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (C.A. Coleman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 06:54:19 -0800
Subject: On Bindi, Tikka or Tilak (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227026937.23782.223778333850705640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
You might also want to look up a book called "Samudrika" (YG Krishnamurti
and Kuari Chandrakanta Sharma--Asia Press). It's a description of sex
and body sign prediction practices, but it might yield some interesting
ideas. Katherine Young (McGill U.) also has a book/chapter/article on
this matter that came out in 1992, though I do not have a cite for it.
Let me know what comes of this.
CAC
"It is madness to wear ladies' straw hats and velvet hats to
church; we should all be wearing crash helmets."
--Annie Dillard
_Teaching a Stone to Talk_
From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 19 15:01:10 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 07:01:10 -0800
Subject: Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism
Message-ID: <161227026939.23782.7529044835129645162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
With reference to the query, I cannot assemble a list of works on Kashmir
Shaivism due to other obligations, but the specific work to which the
query is addressed is:
Author: Pandita, Balajinnatha.
Title: History of Kashmir Saivism / B.N. Pandit.
Edition: 1st ed.
Pub. Info.: Srinagar, Kashmir : Utpal Publications, 1989.
Phy Descript: xxiv, 167 p. ; 22 cm.
ISBN: 8185217017 :.
LCCN: 89905543.
Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Catalin BUIU wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
> B.N. Pandit. I would very much appreciate if you could let me know where
> to find this book, the publisher , year, any other indication. Do you
> know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Catalin Buiu
> Bucharest, Romania
>
>
From aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Nov 19 05:11:49 1996
From: aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi (Asko H S Parpola)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 07:11:49 +0200
Subject: On Bindi, Tikka or Tilak (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227026917.23782.11951949060836969185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:39:34 GMT
To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
From: asko.parpola at helsinki.fi
Cc: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: On Bindi, Tikka or Tilak
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a longish discussion of this topic in chapter 14.4 (p. 261ff.) of my
book "Deciphering the Indus script" (Cambridge 1994). With best regards,
Asko Parpola
>Dear Indologists,
>
>I write this on behalf of a colleague who is not a member of this list.
>She says:
>
>
> I am still looking for documentation on the linkage between the
> "tikka" worn on Hindu women's foreheads and the concept of Shakti. I'd
> appreciate anything you might be able to tell me. Keep in touch.
>
>
>I remember having read a few posts on this subject but I am not sure if
>they appeared on this list. Since I have been unable to search the
>Indology archives (I have misplaced the http://... address), hence this
>request for assistance. Would appreciate your indulgence in this matter.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Sushil Jain
>asia at uwindsor.ca
Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi
Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki
From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 19 13:57:26 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 08:57:26 -0500
Subject: Dhik taan!
Message-ID: <161227026933.23782.10002879114163033153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A likely candidate is a verse which again I remember only partially. The
second half of this verse is as follows:
iti gho.sayatiiva .di.n.dima.h
kari.no hastipakaahata.h kva.nan
I again need to invoke Ashok's assistance.
All the best,
Madhav Deshpande
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, mohkamsing wrote:
> Dear prof. Aklujkar,
> Fascinated by the beautiful play upon the words "dhik taan" in the line
> mentioned by Madhav Deshpande, I requested him to pass on the references of
> that verse to me if someone would come reactions. Now you have come up with the
> complete verse, I may also direct that request directly to you.
> There is one more request: do you [or anyone else on the list] know more such
> passages containing puns on drum syllables?
>
> best wishes,
>
> N. Mohkamsing
> Ph.D. Researcher
> NWO,
> Leiden Univ.
> mohkamsing at Rullet.LeidenUniv.nl
>
>
>
From buiu at borneo.gmd.de Tue Nov 19 08:11:40 1996
From: buiu at borneo.gmd.de (Catalin BUIU)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 09:11:40 +0100
Subject: Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism
Message-ID: <161227026922.23782.17753696747881366818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello!
I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
B.N. Pandit. I would very much appreciate if you could let me know where
to find this book, the publisher , year, any other indication. Do you
know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
Thank you very much.
Regards,
Catalin Buiu
Bucharest, Romania
From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Tue Nov 19 15:32:30 1996
From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 09:32:30 -0600
Subject: Drum Syllables
Message-ID: <161227026941.23782.7205339498406488574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Drum Syllables
*****************
The 15th century tamil poet, Arunagirinathar in his Tiruppugazh
(praise songs of Murugan) has few lines of drum syllables in
hundreds of songs. Tiruppugazh is a major taaLa pramaaNa treatise
available in any Indian language.
.....
Listening to recent debates in this forum, I understand how
raashtrabaasha/imperialism gets propagated in western academia too.
I agree with R. Zydenbos that many linguistic traditions, of
great indological import, are currently left out and needs attention/
serious study.
Many non-hindi Indians have told me this:
At dinner tables, they are supposed to answer this arrogant question:
"You don't know hindi?! Are you Indian?"
N. Ganesan
From MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Tue Nov 19 09:28:01 1996
From: MOHKAMSING at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (mohkamsing)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 10:28:01 +0100
Subject: Dhik taan!
Message-ID: <161227026924.23782.3348067936121986405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear prof. Aklujkar,
Fascinated by the beautiful play upon the words "dhik taan" in the line
mentioned by Madhav Deshpande, I requested him to pass on the references of
that verse to me if someone would come reactions. Now you have come up with the
complete verse, I may also direct that request directly to you.
There is one more request: do you [or anyone else on the list] know more such
passages containing puns on drum syllables?
best wishes,
N. Mohkamsing
Ph.D. Researcher
NWO,
Leiden Univ.
mohkamsing at Rullet.LeidenUniv.nl
From chattrj at is3.nyu.edu Tue Nov 19 15:30:11 1996
From: chattrj at is3.nyu.edu (chattrj at is3.nyu.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 10:30:11 -0500
Subject: Indigo Trade in India
Message-ID: <161227026943.23782.2001324891110169316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Need some help with the history of Indigo cultivation and trade in India
(especially Bengal). What is the time period of its flourish and fall? I
know it was beginning to dwindle by the 1860s, after the Indigo Rebellion,
but when exactly did artificial indigo replace the natural version? I'll be
very grateful if anyone can supply any facts/figures on this or lead me to
other sources. I am trying to connect this to the Indigo Rebellion in 19th
century Bengal, particularly the Bengali play _Neeldarpan_ (1959) by
Dinabandhu Mitra.
Thanks.
:Sudipto Chatterjee
New York University
chattrj at is3.nyu.edu
_____________________________________________
"[I]t only takes two generations to make anything traditional:
naturally enough, since that is the sense of tradition as active
process." --Raymond Williams
_____________________________________________
100 Bleecker Street, Apt. #7C, New York, NY 10012
Tel: (212) 979-6466 Fax: (212) 998-1855
From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 19 15:42:25 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 10:42:25 -0500
Subject: Dhik taan! (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227026946.23782.9767897754269855785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Now that I remember the first half of the verse, it does not involve a pun
on the notation of drum-beats. However, here is that first half:
matir eva balaad gariiyasii
tad-abhaave kari.naam iyam da"saa
Second half:
iti gho.sayatiiva .di.n.dima.h
kari.no hastipakaahata.h kva.nan
All the best,
Madhav Deshpande
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:57:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Madhav Deshpande
To: Members of the list
Subject: Re: Dhik taan!
A likely candidate is a verse which again I remember only partially. The
second half of this verse is as follows:
iti gho.sayatiiva .di.n.dima.h
kari.no hastipakaahata.h kva.nan
I again need to invoke Ashok's assistance.
All the best,
Madhav Deshpande
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, mohkamsing wrote:
> Dear prof. Aklujkar,
> Fascinated by the beautiful play upon the words "dhik taan" in the line
> mentioned by Madhav Deshpande, I requested him to pass on the references of
> that verse to me if someone would come reactions. Now you have come up with the
> complete verse, I may also direct that request directly to you.
> There is one more request: do you [or anyone else on the list] know more such
> passages containing puns on drum syllables?
>
> best wishes,
>
> N. Mohkamsing
> Ph.D. Researcher
> NWO,
> Leiden Univ.
> mohkamsing at Rullet.LeidenUniv.nl
>
>
>
From pventhb at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 19 10:32:04 1996
From: pventhb at xs4all.nl (pventhb at xs4all.nl)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 11:32:04 +0100
Subject: i[...] c[...] (I thought it was banned?...)
Message-ID: <161227026926.23782.1583082576029218785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>Consider: a knowledge of standard modern Kannada gives one access to all the
>literature in that language since Basava (12th century). Written Tamil has
>changed little since the Na_n_nuul. (N.B.: I have not yet spoken about the
>older forms of these languages.) These two languages have the oldest
>literatures among the living languages of the subcontinent, and their
>Indological import is enormous. And I must say, with humble apologies to
>Hindi-lovers, and intending no disrespect whatsoever: Hindi comes nowhere near
>this.
>
Such arguments are, evidently, untenable and beside the point. The earlier
incarnations of what we try to call Hindi today: (if this is still possible
after the previous discussion) Dakkhini Hindi, Avadhi, Braj were well
established as literary media from early medieval times onwards. The
literary heritage of Urdu, in some respects, outshines much of what is
written in other Indian languages. The historical dimension and the quest
for a better understanding of Indian culture, is just as good a reason for
paying serious academic attention (and not by throwing Teach yourself Hindi
at your students) to the NIA-languages and their historical contexts. Every
scholar of medieval Hindi is aware of the need for shopping around in
adjacent area's like medieval Rajasthani, Apabhramsha and a whole range of
other tongues. No one in that field is likely to put forward a claim for
dominance, either numerically or politically, for Hindi, as it formed only
one part of the composite cultural history of Northern India. In my opinion the
> the disproportionate attention given to Hindi in
>Western academia,
is not the problem, but the fact that Hindi is taught as if it was a modern
European language, with much emphasis on "near native" eloquence and with
serious disregard of the history of the language and of medieval North
Indian culture. When faced with such a shallow "academic" treatment of this
field, it is no great surprise that area's that are even more remote from
the "cash-cow" curricula, like the Dravidian languages R. Zydenbos refers
to, get lost in South Asian Studies.
By continuing to treat modern Indian languages so poorly in academic
curricula, there is little chance that the perception of the linguistic
situation of India will improve much.
One question to conclude with: who are the students that take the "cash-cow"
classes in Hindi /Urdu, and what is their interest in this? Is it learning
"the modern language of India" or are they extending their Indological
curriculum? Perhaps some teachers can shed their light on this?
Thomas de Bruijn
From mchari at bcm.tmc.edu Tue Nov 19 18:00:23 1996
From: mchari at bcm.tmc.edu (mchari at bcm.tmc.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 12:00:23 -0600
Subject: Drum Syllables
Message-ID: <161227026947.23782.10145685126494278282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Ganesan -
let us substitute "ignorant" for "arrogant" !
It would perhaps be nearer truth to say so.
M.V.Chari
From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue Nov 19 22:02:05 1996
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 12:02:05 -1000
Subject: i[...] c[...] (I thought it was banned?...)
Message-ID: <161227026955.23782.2895527093300529851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Robert Zydenbos wrote:
> communication. To ask an utterly crude, blunt and crucial question: yes, one
> can say "caay denaa" at any Indian railway station and actually get tea. So
> what? At Miraj station (N.B.: southern Maharashtra) a northerner one time did
> just this at a tea stall. The attendant just stared at the man. Then I asked
> for tea, in Kannada; I got my tea first, and then the northerner (oh! another
It's quite possible that you were
served first because you are a foreigner,
and that too, speaking an Indian
language. (You might have been
served first even if you had said
"chaai dena" -- or emitted hoarse cries
suggestive of being parched -- instead
of saying "chhayi ondhu kodtheera").
When one studies a foreign culture
with enthusiasm, there seems to be a
danger of embracing the local prejudices
(which may be viewed with scepticism even
by many local people) and making them
one's own...
All the best,
Raja.
________ ________ __ __ ________
| | | | (/ \/ ) | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | _/ __ | |
| | | | (__/ \) | |
/
From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Nov 19 20:17:30 1996
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 12:17:30 -0800
Subject: Passages containing puns on drum syllables
Message-ID: <161227026951.23782.704385076255516975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In response to the inquiry by N. Mohkamsing:
The following contains a skilful use of Paa.ninian suutras as well as drum
syllables (probably as spoken by teachers and dance accompanists):
kupvo.h ka.h-pau ca ;se.so ghy asakhi sasaju.so rur viraamo 'vasaanam
;sa;s cho .tiity-aadi ;sabdai.h sadasi yadi ;sa.thaa.h ;saabdika.h
pa.n.ditaa.h syu.h /
te.saa.m ko vaaparaadha.h kathayata satata.m ye pa.thantiiha thontat-
taa-thayyaa-thayya-thayyaa-dhiga-dhiga-dhiga-dhik-thayya-thayyeti ;sabdaan //
The verse mentioned by M. Deshpande,
matir eva balaad gariiyasii
tad-abhaave kari.naam iyam da"saa
iti gho.sayatiiva .di.n.dima.h
kari.no hastipakaahata.h kva.na //, as he himself notes, is
different in that it refers to drum beating but does not actually reproduce
any drum sounds.
Incidentally, detecting some poetic blemishes in the otherwise charming and
insightful verse cited by Deshpande, I wrote the following a few years ago:
"[verse tr:] 'Intelligence is more important than physical
strength. It is the absence of intelligence that has reduced the elephants
to this (sorry) state (of being beasts of burden).' This is what the drum
sounding when beaten by the mahout announces to the elephants."
Here, kva.nan 'sounding? is really not necessary, and kari.na.h 'to
the elephants? does not serve much of a purpose, unless a specific context
in which elephants are to be aroused or in which a particular mahout
wishing to 'rub it in' to the elephants is presupposed, is created. Also,
the crucial reference to the fact that the physically less powerful man is
sitting on top of the elephant is missing.
I would, therefore, propose that the verse be rewritten as follows:
iti gho.sayatiiva .di.n.dima.h kari-p.r.s.tha-sthita-haastikaahata.h .'...
This is what the drum beaten by the mahout atop the elephant announces.'
I do not have time to verify this, but my recollection is that the
dhik taan verse is attributed to K.r.s.na-liilaa-;suka-muni (F. Wilson
produced a critical edn and tr of one of his works several years ago).
From oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr Tue Nov 19 19:20:20 1996
From: oguibeni at monza.u-strasbg.fr (Boris Oguibenine)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 14:20:20 -0500
Subject: booklist with old South Asia available
Message-ID: <161227026928.23782.12119762322766390982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:06:15 GMT, ARB wrote:
>Asian Rare Books has just issued a booklist not yet
>at our website with some op/old Indolgy which we gladly
>post at your request by email Attachment.
>Send request for this list to us at ARB at maestro.com
>
>Stephen Feldman, Asian Rare Books(New York City)
>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccs/cuwl/clients/arb/
PLease send the list when available. Many thanks.
From fp7 at columbia.edu Tue Nov 19 19:37:40 1996
From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 14:37:40 -0500
Subject: "cash-cow" Hindi/Urdu
Message-ID: <161227026949.23782.1949996409287182407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Thomas de Bruijn wrote:
>
> One question to conclude with: who are the students that take the "cash-cow"
> classes in Hindi /Urdu, and what is their interest in this? Is it learning
> "the modern language of India" or are they extending their Indological
> curriculum? Perhaps some teachers can shed their light on this?
>
> Thomas de Bruijn
>
Both, of course. What might be called "personal" uses (South Asian
American undergraduate students wanting to explore their roots) and career
purposes (graduate students wanting to do international development work)
converge with academic interests (indological research needs).
Hindi/Urdu programs are large today not because western scholars
sneakily or foolishly conspire to make them so, but because a number of
different publics agree, from very different perspectives, that modern
standard Hindi/Urdu is something they want to learn, for their own
purposes. The resulting large classes provide a base of operations, make
it possible to provide opportunities for advanced study in these and
related language areas for those students (not as many as we might wish,
but by no means zero) who want it.
It is not the case that if we broke up our (relatively) big Hindi/Urdu
programs our universities would then develop equally thriving programs in
Telugu, Kannada, Punjabi, medieval Braj, etc. Most often, they would have
no programs at all, because the critical mass would not be there in terms
of sheer sustained student numbers. Even our North American innovation of
teaching Hindi and Urdu together for two years (usually with Devanagari
script in the first year, adding Urdu script in the second) has proved to
be extremely helpful in achieving and maintaining viable class sizes.
Here at Columbia we offer (smaller) programs in Bengali and Punjabi as
well as Hindi/Urdu; we find that even students coming from Bengali and
Punjabi ethnic backgrounds often elect to study Hindi/Urdu, for pragmatic
reasons. (At present we teach no South Indian languages, but a number of
South Indian students are enrolled in Hindi/Urdu.) The students may be
pragmatists, but it does not follow that the they, or their teachers, are
cynical. Many of us who teach Hindi/Urdu, teach it with personal
pleasure and scholarly commitment. Cash cows have their uses: some of
them come from breeds that have considerable value in their own right, and
their milk can be used to nourish a variety of calves.
From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Nov 19 12:09:56 1996
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 15:09:56 +0300
Subject: Reply of de Bruijn to Zydenbos
Message-ID: <161227026935.23782.12158233044038825400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>One question to conclude with: who are the students that take the "cash-cow"
>classes in Hindi /Urdu, and what is their interest in this? Is it learning
>"the modern language of India" or are they extending their Indological
>curriculum? Perhaps some teachers can shed their light on this?
>Thomas de Bruijn
I ask my students to fill out a questionnaire, describing their purpose,
when they begin their study of Hindi-Urdu. The commonest replies are:
1. It is part of an academic study program (linguistics, anthropology,
oriental studies etc,)
2. I plan to travel to India or Pakistan
3. I need it in my work in Norway
As a purely subjective observation, for every roughly eight students who
complete the introductory course, I find only a few who are interested in
the "Indological curriculum" in its academic sense.
Shouldn't Hindi and Urdu lecturers be keeping track of this aspect of demand?
With best wishes,
Ruth Schmidt
From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Tue Nov 19 20:16:20 1996
From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 16:16:20 -0400
Subject: "cash-cow" Hindi/Urdu
Message-ID: <161227026953.23782.18278084860631072744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Anyone currently teaching Hindu/Urdu who would comment concerning
the most effective, useful, interesting teaching materials for the first two
years?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gene Thursby
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Tue Nov 19 23:51:30 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 18:51:30 -0500
Subject: Madhav's dhik taan!
Message-ID: <161227026959.23782.18344105148649118260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Thanks to Ashok, and to Madhav himself, now we know.
However, as so often, there seems to be more than one solution to the
riddle: I seem to be on another, more hidden track going back to
still older, if not Vedic antecedents:
Madhav's last line was:
>> dhik taan dhik taan dhig etaan kathayati satatam kiirtanastho
m.rdanga.h . <<
Yesterday I remembered the first line, an iti-quote, just as in Ashok's
second contribution:
bato bataasi jarjara / naiva te mano hrdayam caavidaama /
but now also the second part of this direct speech:
haye jaDa manasaa tiSTha ghora / vacaaMsi medhaa krNavaavahai nu /
which is in good meter this time, though not yet leading to the rest, the
last 2 lines of the stanza.
What was the intention of the poet? Note the dead, deafening silence
after: jarjara, in the first line, and the anacoluthic speech in the
second line. Clearly, the poet alludes to the state of mind of the one
addressed in the stanza.
I still cannot remember the next line...
Can anybody help? It should make the switch, somewhat similar to Madhav's
second stanza, from direct speech to the Shlesa drum description. A hint
to this is given already in the first line, by mentioning jarjara,
the stick of the Suutradhaara (IIJ 16,253) in the opening sequence of the
drama.
MW>
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Wed Nov 20 03:06:37 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 22:06:37 -0500
Subject: Q: Proto-Siva
Message-ID: <161227026963.23782.12406072335221569273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Q of N. Ganesan:
>>> I read in many books on Hinduism that Siva is a late-comer to the
Hindu Pantheon. Initially, he was not invited for Yagnas, or
given sacrificial offerings. .....<<<
The earliest, already Vedic (and unknown) piece of literary evidence on the
relative lateness and grudging acceptance of Shiva into the Pantheon, I
believe, is the following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The gods did not recognize Rudra who had gone to Heaven and walked
about, (shining) with the color of the sun. They said: "Who are you?"
"I am Rudra, I am Indra, I am Aaditya (the sun). I am the
deflector of all heavenly wrath."
They said: "Let us exclude him (from sacrifice)."
He shouted at them, screaming (ruvan). He advanced towards them.
They said: "Lord (bhavaan), you are the overlord of all this here."
Because he shouted at them, screaming (ruvan), this is the Rudraness of
Rudra (i.e. this is the origin of the name Rudra).
Because they said "Lord" (bhavaan), this is the origin of the name Bhava.
Because they said the whole (overlordhip, sarvam), this is the origin of
the name S'arva.
He became friendly (s'iva). This is the origin of the name S'iva.
He took pity (amrLata) on them. This is the origin of the name MrLa.
The gods said to him: "Yours is the supreme overlordship of the present
(bhava), the past (bhuuta), and the future (bhavya)."
He (the Adhvaryu priest) makes him (the sponsor of the ritual, yajamaana)
go to the overlordhip of all (this here).
(Katha Aranyaka 2.100: literal -- not literary -- transl.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If necessary, I can send the Skt. text as well.
MW.
>?From 71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM 19 96 Nov EST 23:53:22
Date: 19 Nov 96 23:53:22 EST
From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RE: Encyclopedia of Kashmir Shaivism
>Hello!
>
>I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
>B.N. Pandit.
The manuscript of this work was completed long ago, but it hasn't been published
yet. Dr. Pandit told me he had given it to a governmental organization in Delhi,
and as such things go, they are taking a very long time to bring it out. I doubt
it will be ready in the near future...
> Do you know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
There are, of course, a number of works published by SUNY Press, Motilal
Banarsidass and Munshiram Manoharlal, though I presume you must be familiar with
these. Besides, a number of works have been translated into French and Italian.
Searching a catalog on the Internet should give you the full references for
these titles. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Swami Gitananda
Agama Research Centre
From thillaud at unice.fr Tue Nov 19 22:32:22 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 23:32:22 +0100
Subject: about parjanya
Message-ID: <161227026966.23782.10564781540098951485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
in RV VIII, 25, 14-15:
uta naH sindhur apaam tan marutas tad azvinaa /
indro viSNur miiDhvaamsaH sajoSasaH //
te hi Smaa vanuSo naro 'bhimaatim kayasya cit /
tigmam na kSodaH pratighnanti bhuurNayaH //
A. Langlois in his translation (Rig Veda, Paris, 1872, VI, II, V, p. 419)
include _sindhur apaam_ in this list of warrior gods and translate him by
_le (dieu) qui lance la pluie_ (the god who throws the rain) and, in a
subsequent note, as being Parjanya!
I would like to know if:
1) the inclusion is syntactically correct ?
2) _sindhur apaam_ is an elsewhere attested designation for Parjanya ?
I would prefer the general meaning:
for us the waters because:
1) some gods are with us
2) in battle they act as furious waters
But I am not a specialist (I don't understand very well the two _tad_) and
an expert advice would help me!
many thanks,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it Tue Nov 19 23:35:43 1996
From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (torella at axrma.uniroma1.it)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 23:35:43 +0000
Subject: Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism
Message-ID: <161227026957.23782.2685150766963941628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Hello!
>
>I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
>B.N. Pandit. I would very much appreciate if you could let me know where
>to find this book, the publisher , year, any other indication.
Some years ago I received from B.N.Pandit a request for comments on the
first fascicle of his Kaazmiirazaivadarzanasya BRhatkoSaH (pp.1-52, a-aa),
Jammu 1985. Possibly this is the work you refer to. Unfortunately I don't
know of any further development of this project. Anyway, as far as I was
able to judge/guess from the first fascicle the quality of the work left
much to be desired.
> Do you know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
A volume on Kashmir Shaivism (by N. Rastogi and others) is under
preparation in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies published by Motilal
Banarsidass.
Regards,
Raffaele Torella
Raffaele Torella,
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza"
(fax: 6-4451209)
From keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Nov 20 06:38:30 1996
From: keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu (katherine eirene ulrich)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 00:38:30 -0600
Subject: Indigo
Message-ID: <161227026964.23782.17028745413109173877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Kenneth Hall has an article in the Journal of the Economic and Soial History
of the Orient on "The Textile Industry in Southeast Asia, 1400-1800" that
might be useful. The new book _Cloth and Human Experience_ (ed. A.B. Weiner
and Jane Schneider) has an essay on indigo in Indonesian textiles, plus
essays by B. Cohn and S. Bean on textiles in the colonial and post-colonial
period (e.g., svadeshi). There are also some articles on textiles in the
colonial and post-colonial period in A. Appadurai, ed., _The Social Life of
Things_. In _South Asian Studies_ (vol. 11, 1995), R. Janaway and R.A.E.
Coningham's "Review of Archaeological Textile Evidence from South Asia" has
an extensive bibliography. Finally, you might try Paul Wheatley,
"Geographical Notes on Some Commodities involved in Sung Maritime Trade," in
the _Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society_ (1959): he
refers to Chinese and early European references to indigo being exported from
Gujarat.
I hope that these are of some use, if only to help you in tracking down what
you need. I have been doing some research on the silk trade in the Early
Historic Period. Do you -- or does anyone else -- know about where I might
find references to arguments about non-violence and the necessity of killing
silkworms? I have only been able to find references to early Chinese
Buddhist works or 19th - 20th century Hindu ones. Yet it seems reasonable to
think that there was some discussion in pre-colonial South Asia (whether
among Hindus, Buddhists, or Jains), and I would be very grateful if someone
knows where I might find that information. Thanks.
_________________________
Katherine E. Ulrich
University of Chicago
Divinity School
1025 E. 58th St.
Chicago, IL 60637
keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu
__________________________________________
From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Wed Nov 20 12:52:59 1996
From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 07:52:59 -0500
Subject: about parjanya
Message-ID: <161227026973.23782.14794442346518445168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>in RV VIII, 25, 14-15:
> uta naH sindhur apaam tan marutas tad azvinaa /
> indro viSNur miiDhvaamsaH sajoSasaH //
> te hi Smaa vanuSo naro 'bhimaatim kayasya cit /
> tigmam na kSodaH pratighnanti bhuurNayaH //
>A. Langlois in his translation (Rig Veda, Paris, 1872, VI, II, V, p. 419)
>include _sindhur apaam_ in this list of warrior gods and translate him by
>_le (dieu) qui lance la pluie_ (the god who throws the rain) and, in a
>subsequent note, as being Parjanya!
> I would like to know if:
> 1) the inclusion is syntactically correct ?
> 2) _sindhur apaam_ is an elsewhere attested designation for Parjanya ?
>I would prefer the general meaning:
> for us the waters because:
> 1) some gods are with us
> 2) in battle they act as furious waters
>But I am not a specialist (I don't understand very well the two _tad_) and
>an expert advice would help me!
> many thanks,
>
SAyaNa does take sindhuH as referring to Parjanya: sindhuH syandanaxIlaH
parjanyaH. However, sindhur apAm can also appropriately be taken as
involving a genitive of the type xUrANAM xUratamaH (the Sindhu among the
waters), which is the construction Geldner seems to assume. On the other
hand, Renou (Etudes vediques et panineennes vol. 7, p. 69) seems to assume
that apAm is construed with an understood term (napAt ?). As for tad, this
is the corelative to yad of the preceding verse. Regards, George Cardona
From ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 20 03:18:21 1996
From: ibcindia at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (INDIAN BOOKS CENTRE)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 08:18:21 +0500
Subject: Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism
Message-ID: <161227026961.23782.6321619244695300627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The book Encycloapaedia of Kashmir Saivism is not yet released.
Sunil Gupta, Indian Books Centre
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Catalin BUIU wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
> B.N. Pandit. I would very much appreciate if you could let me know where
> to find this book, the publisher , year, any other indication. Do you
> know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Catalin Buiu
> Bucharest, Romania
>
>
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Nov 20 10:12:55 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:12:55 +0000
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit (was Re: The Coming of the Greeks) (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227026971.23782.2008884816816627085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
This is a summary of a discussion that has been going on in the
sci.archaeology group recently, which Joe Bernstein thought -- rightly, I
think -- would be of interest here in INDOLOGY.
I'm not sure how to coordinate this discussion: perhaps INDOLOGISTS should
join the sci-archaeology debate if they wish to participate. On the other
hand, this is bread-and-butter stuff for us too.
Dominik Wujastyk
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 08:56:20-0600
From: Joe Bernstein
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit (was Re: The Coming of the Greeks)
In article <56lmr8$b1p at reaper.uunet.ca>, sshankar at waterloo.border.com wrote:
>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>>
>> Indo-Iranians from Central Asia came into Iran and India somewhere in
>> the 2nd millennium. Given that Indo-Iranian is closely connected to
>> languages in Europe (Greek especially), their ultimate origin must be
>> (Eastern) Europe.
(Just before we get any further... I'm not current on I-E origins stuff,
but hadn't understood it to be *quite* that simple!)
> Do you know of any archeaological evidence for the "movement of
>Indo-Iranians into Iran & India" ??
> Recent studies seem to question the validity of the "IE movement into
> India" theories.
I've yet to see such studies unconnected to places with names like "Vedic
Research Institute"; in particular, I've seen a spectacularly unconvincing
paper by one David Frawley (presumably still findable on the Web, where I
first saw it). (Also, in the distant past, various articles assuming or
claiming to support the chronology appeared in the .) I will appreciate any better references you can
provide. The rest of this post proceeds on what I know, which
unfortunately derives from a lot of careful study years ago, plus rather
less, and less careful, recent reading.
There are lots of disagreements over how *many* Indo-European speakers
arrived in India, in particular (or South Asia more generally: in this
post, I'm awake as to which I use, thanks), or about *how* these speakers
arrived. Some months ago, Moin Ansari and I debated these issues at some
length on this newsgroup, and I'm cc'ing him on this post partly to let
him know the topic's back.
But there is very little doubt that such people *did* arrive in India, and
around the time Mr. Carrasquer Vidal says (though maybe the 3rd millennium
BC is a possibility).
Several lines of evidence converge on this, and there doesn't seem to be a
lot of room left for disagreement. When I last studied the subject in
detail (1986-7), the main arguments that held water were still the
19th-century linguistic and textual ones (e.g., the similarity between
Avestan Persian and Vedic Sanskrit, or the tendency for the older texts to
use further-west place names). While these were good enough to persuade
me the movement happened, I wasn't terribly confident about much more than
that. (Mr. Ansari, by the way, disagrees strenuously with me on the
validity of the other older arguments, but he can make his own case.)
Recent evidence appears to make it much clearer. First of all, Asko
Parpola's belief that the Indus Valley Civilisation's language was a
Dravidian language is now persuading quite a few people who had been
skeptical; I understand he's close to a translation of the seals. (Mr.
Ansari's references are much likelier to be current than mine, here.)
Much the most plausible way to explain the subsequent disappearance of
Dravidian languages from that area is by positing a migration from the
northwest, not one from the southeast.
Second, there's evidence for that migration. See the interim site report
on Harappa, in particular (Meadow 1991 below). In the chapter which John
Lukacs worked on, there is an unequivocal assertion of significant
population changes in the centuries prior to 800 B.C. The people who
worked on this chapter have my respect, and their methods are as carefully
scientific as I can imagine a way to be; I haven't had the opportunity to
read it yet, but I'm inclined (reluctantly, I might add) to assume they're
correct.
In addition (somewhat older argument here, but germane), there's more
general "touchy-feely" evidence of the pottery-styles sort of some sort of
migration southeast. Notable stylistic traits in pottery show this
direction of diffusion. I'm thinking in particular of the appearance of
fine grey wares. It's also worth considering Pirak Damb (Jarrige 1979),
where there are clear Central Asian affinities in the post-Harappan
population's material culture. Some summary of the "grey ware - Sanskrit"
equation may be found in Gaur 1983 (though this has to be read with care,
as Gaur was not entirely free to speak his mind there).
I'm not sure what else goes into the shift in opinion. Ten years ago,
there was a general sense in South Asian archaeology of an opening, a
sense that much of the standing interpretation of that archaeology was
simply wrong and needed revising. One of the things that grew out of that
was, of course, the opening for claims (e.g.) that Sanskrit (or for that
matter the human race) originated in India. But there was also a lot of
work being done trying to replace the flawed conclusions of the past with
better ones. Unfortunately, my brief opportunity to watch that work
happen ended; in the past eight years, I haven't even found a library
where I can read .
I have, however, found a number of supporting references. Ghosh 1989
is a full-blown encyclopaedia of Indian archaeology. This has been
supplemented by a number of books from Dilip Chakrabarti synthesising the
archaeology of specific regions (I'm sure of both Bangladesh and West
Bengal, but there may be more; no references handy, sorry); I believe
there's been similar regional work in Pakistan, which Mr. Ansari can
perhaps confirm or deny.
In addition, a full-blown synthesis of protohistorical and early
historical archaeology has appeared, cited below as Allchin 1995. This
contains two different discussions of the "Aryans", quite at odds with
each other. But the contributors (again trustworthy, George Erdosy and F.
R. Allchin) leave no doubt that the fact of Aryans arriving is settled.
I'm sorry that this is the best I can offer. Mr. Ansari and I were
supposed to go back to the libraries after our last debate ran its course,
revise our respective opera, and come back here in the spring. I believe
he's ready now, but I'm not: shame on me.
All the same. His case for a full-blown "Aryan invasion" with all the
blood and gore that implies is stronger than I then gave it credit for,
though I continue to prefer a model more analogous to that by which
Spanish became the dominant language of Mexico (say), or perhaps less
violent than that. Much of my evidence for this has to do with pottery
sequences and such from sites which I don't believe Mr. Ansari is that
familiar with*, just as much of his "invasion" evidence has to do with
sites I don't know well. But either way, there doesn't seem to be any
room left to deny that Sanskrit came from elsewhere.
While this post is rather less confident than my ones in the prior debate,
by the way, it's got something those generally didn't. I now have my
bibliography on this stuff stored where I post from: so this one has
REFERENCES. These follow.
Joe Bernstein
* Some of what I mean by this: At least as of 1987, I was pretty firmly
convinced: that the dish-and-bowl assemblage which characterises
protohistoric pottery in the region had originated in the Doab, based
partly on Sahi 1978; that the Black-and-Red pottery technique had been
learnt from the south (common sense, see H. Singh 1982); that the first
settlers in UP other than the mysterious Ochre-Coloured Pottery folks were
from the hills south of the Doab (I'm having trouble finding a good
reference for this; try G. R. Sharma in Kenoyer X below, if Sharma has an
article there); and that both rice and iron (Chakrabarti 1977 on the
latter) reached the Doab from Bengal. On top of all this, I was
confident, on the basis of Erdosy 1985 and other sources, that the
urbanisation of the region was more or less independent of, and prior to,
the arrival of the Vedic Aryans. Ultimately, my argument was that they
just didn't matter that much. How much of this I can still sustain
remains to be seen.
Items referenced in this post:
Allchin 1995: THE ARCHAEOLOGY OF EARLY HISTORIC SOUTH ASIA: THE
EMERGENCE OF CITIES AND STATES, by F. R. Allchin, with contributions from
George Erdosy, R. A. E. Coningham, D. K. Chakrabarti, and Bridget
Allchin. (Erdosy has since changed his name to Muhammad Usman Erdosy,
according to the preface.) Cambridge: Cambridge, 1995.
Chakrabarti 1977: "Distribution of iron ores and the archaeological
evidence of early iron in India" by Dilip K. Chakrabarti. JOURNAL OF THE
ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL HISTORY OF THE ORIENT 20: 166-84. I am quite aware
that this topic has remained controversial; at the time I wrote my paper,
*this* paper still looked good to me, and I haven't had the opportunity to
catch up or reassess my judgement then.. My apologies for lacking full
references to Chakrabarti's books on Bangladesh etc. I've seen them in
the library of Northwestern University, and I'd look them up there now if
this computer would allow that, but at the moment it won't.
Erdosy 1985: "Settlement archaeology of the Kausambi region" by George
(now Muhammad Usman) Erdosy. MAN AND ENVIRONMENT 9: 66-79.
Gaur 1983: EXCAVATIONS AT ATRANJIKHERA, by R. C. Gaur. Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, 1983.
Ghosh 1989: AN ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF INDIAN ARCHAEOLOGY, edited by A. Ghosh.
New Delhi: Munshiram Monoharlal, 1989. Two volumes, one with entries on
topics, the other with entries on sites. (I've seen this cited as also
appearing in Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1991, as AN ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF ANCIENT
INDIA, but have not seen this edition.)
Jarrige 1979: FOUILLES DE PIRAK, by Jean-Francois Jarrige, Marielle
Santoni, Jean-Francois Enault, et al. Paris: Diffusion de Boccard, 1979.
Meadow 1991: Meadow, Richard H., ed. 1991. Harappa Excavations 1986-1990:
A Multidisciplinary Approach to Third Millennium Urbanism. Monographs in
World Archaeology No. 3. Prehistory Press. Madison, WI. (Entry from Ben
Diebold)
Sahi 1978: "New light on the life of the Painted Grey Ware people as
revealed from excavations at Jakhera (Dist. Etah)" by M. D. N. Sahi. MAN
AND ENVIRONMENT 2: 101-3.
H. Singh 1982: HISTORY AND ARCHAEOLOGY OF BLACK-AND-RED WARE
(CHALCOLITHIC PERIOD) by H. N. Singh. Delhi: Sundeep Prakashan, 1982.
Additional items for which I have references handy, which seem likely to
be of interest (credit to Ben Diebold and Moin Ansari for these, except
for King 1984, Lal 1984 and Shaffer 1981):
Clark, John E. and William J. Parry 1990 " Craft Specialization and
Cultural Complexity." Research in Economic Anthropology, vol. 12, pp:
289-346. (from Moin Ansari. I haven't yet looked for this, but the title
certainly relates to the topics of current discussions of Harappan civ)
Michael Jansen `Forgotten Cities of the Indus' 1993 or 1994 - (from
Moin Ansari; apparently a good introductory book; the Jansens have been
central to recent work systematically re-examining the records of the
Mohenjo-daro digs)
Old Problems and New Perspectives in the Archaeology of South Asia
edited by J.M.Kenoyer, Wisconsin Archaeological Reports Vol 2, 1989. [from
conference in 89] (from Moin Ansari) Nope, the conference was in 1986 or
1987, I was there. Lots of good stuff here. If there's an article by G.
R. Sharma or R. C. Gaur there, check it for material on the earliest
settlers of the Doab.
Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark. 1991a. "The Indus Valley Tradition of Pakistan
and Western India." Journal of World Prehistory. 5:4:331-385. (from Ben
Diebold: I've skimmed it; a good solid basic article on the Harappan civ;
at first glance not much about Aryans)
King 1984: "Some archaeological problems regarding Gangetic cultures in
early historical India" by Anna King. In STUDIES IN THE ARCHAEOLOGY AND
PALAEOANTHROPOLOGY OF SOUTH ASIA, ed.. Kenneth A. R. Kennedy and Gregory L.
Possehl, pp. 109-19. New Delhi: Oxford & IBH, 1984. Forcefully presents
the case against invasions during the first millennium BC in the Doab and
adjacent regions.
Lal 1984: SETTLEMENT HISTORY AND RISE OF CIVILIZATION IN GANGA-YAMUNA
DOAB: FROM 1500 B. C. - 300 A. D. by Makkhan Lal. Delhi: B. R., 1984.
Though strongly bound by the old consensus, this is still a superb
synthesis of knowledge on the subject as of its date, and includes the
first substantial settlement survey done in north India (I believe M.
Rafique Mughal's work in the Cholistan area of Pakistan preceded, but am
not that familiar with that).
Lukacs, John R. 1992. "Dental Paleopathology and Agricultural
Intensification in South Asia: New Evidence From Bronze Age Harappa."
American Journal of Physical Anthropology 87:133-150. (from Ben Diebold)
Shaffer 1981: "The protohistoric period in the Eastern Punjab: a
preliminary assessment" by Jim G. Shaffer. In A. H. Dani, ed., INDUS
CIVILISATION: NEW PERSPECTIVES, pages 65-102. Islamabad: Centre for the
Study of the Civilization of Central Asia, Quaid-i-Azam University, 1981.
The only thing I've read which synthesises the relevant period in any of
the Punjab, though one hopes it's now fully superseded by Allchin 1995.
--
Joe Bernstein, free-lance writer and bookstore worker joe at sfbooks.com
speaking for myself and nobody else http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/
--- End Forwarded Message ---
From rdsaran at umich.edu Wed Nov 20 15:28:50 1996
From: rdsaran at umich.edu (Richard D. Saran)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:28:50 -0500
Subject: Rajasthani
Message-ID: <161227026976.23782.15336962608144453421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
You might try
BIBLIA IMPEX PRIVATE LIMITED
Booksellers, Publishers, Exporters
2/18 Ansari Road,
New Delhi-110 002 (India)
They list Sita Ram Lalas's Brhad Rajasthani Kosh, vols. 1, 3 (pts 1-3),
4 (pts. 1-3) at a reasonable price ($4-l2 per pt. or vol.). Lalas is
invaluable; there is also the recent Rajasthani-Hindi-English dictionary
by Bhamvaralala Suthara (Jodhpur, 1995), which is the only Rajasthani to
English dictionary available.
Badriprasad Sakariya's Rajasthani Hindi Sabda Kosa (3 vols.; Jaypur,
1977-1984) is another valuable tool.
All the above dictionaries tend to underrepresent Arabic and Persian terms
found in Rajasthani; for these Platts is more useful.
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Peter Flugel wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <199611191032.LAA19649 at xs2.xs4all.nl>
> Does anybody know where to get a Rajasthani (Marvari) dictionary. If
> available at all?
>
> Peter Fluegel
>
>
>
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Nov 20 09:50:48 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:50:48 +0100
Subject: i[...] c[...] (I thought it was banned?...)
Message-ID: <161227026968.23782.3953633343284887915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
>Replies to msg 17 Nov 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Lars Martin Fosse)
>
> lmfn> May I ask Robert Zydenbos the following question: Is there
> lmfn> any other Indic
> lmfn> language than Hindi that offers a certain amount of
> lmfn> "transnational"
> lmfn> communication (and does so better than Hindi)?
>
>A "certain amount"? And do you mean international Indian languages?
By "certain amount" I mean that the language is mastered by other people
than mother tongue speakers at at least an elementary level.
By "transnational" I mean that the language can be used as a means of
communication between speakers of various mother tongues. I should also add
that it would be the language preferred as a second language by a fair
number of people. In this sense, both French, German and English (to mention
a few) have a transnational character, as they are spoken as second
languages by many people in certain areas (the French in the Francophone
world, German in Eastern Europe, English in the global context etc.).
>Bengali (Bangla Desh).
>Punjabi (Pakistan).
>Telugu (South Africa).
>Gujarati (South Africa, Tanzania; probably no longer in Uganda).
>Tamil (Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, South Africa).
This would be parallell to e.g. Spanish, which is spoken in a number of
countries, but normally not chosen as a means of communication between, say,
a German and a Greek.
>I must admit, though, that I do not quite understand the relevance of the word
>"transnational" in our context. I thought that Indologists study Indian
>languages in order to understand more about India - whether the speakers of any
>Indian language claim transnationality or not - and that the significance of a
>language for Indology lies not in the number of people who happen to have
>settled outside India, but in the access it gives us to Indian history and
>culture.
In our context, the word is relevant in so far as India has a number of
states made on the basis of linguistic criteria. But I would agree that the
word transnational is not entirely apt in this context, since India is the
"nation" and the states do not constitute "nations" in the common sense of
the word (although they may have their own subnationalisms). The bottom line
is, however, the following: If several speakers of different Indic
languages, none of whom have Hindi as a mother tongue, and given that none
of them speak English, are having a chat, which language would they prefer
to use as a means of communication? In principle any Indic language can be
used, but I would guess that the one most frequently popping up would be Hindi.
(I suppose some will dismiss this as again so much "hearsay" or mere
>"impression". Indeed, I have not checked this.)
I have made no assumptions as to how you get hold of your information, and
therefore do not dismiss your points of view on such assumptions.
> lmfn> there is a great likelihood that if you
> lmfn> come to a European
> lmfn> country the language of which you do not speak, English is
> lmfn> your best bet if
> lmfn> you try to use another language.
>I once had to argue with an Italian security official in French at Rome
>airport, since he understood no English, German or Dutch. (Sorry if this too is
>just an "impression". I did not try Hindi. :-) ) Again, the same with Hindi: it
>depends on where you are. In eastern India, Bengali is more useful; in
>northwestern Tamilnadu, northern Kerala, southern Maharashtra, Kannada is more
>useful.
I have spent considerable time in Rome, and I can confirm that you are
better off with Italian, but by and large, English will do the job as long
as you stick to simple language. Most people who deal with foreigners know a
smattering of English.
>Consider: a knowledge of standard modern Kannada gives one access to all the
>literature in that language since Basava (12th century). Written Tamil has
>changed little since the Na_n_nuul. (N.B.: I have not yet spoken about the
>older forms of these languages.) These two languages have the oldest
>literatures among the living languages of the subcontinent, and their
>Indological import is enormous. And I must say, with humble apologies to
>Hindi-lovers, and intending no disrespect whatsoever: Hindi comes nowhere near
>this.
It seems to me that we are entering a kind of discussion where we quarrel
about the cultural merit of various Indian regions. Everybody "knows" that
Bengali literature is "vastly superior" to Hindi literature, just as
classical philologists will tell you that Greek literature is *much* more
wonderful than Latin. I think this sort of discussion is quite fruitless.
There may be a number of reasons for studying Indic languages - and I would
certainly not discourage anyone from studying Tamil or Bengali - but I see
no fault in being pragmatic and having a look at the mathematics involved.
Hindi (and Urdu) are the languages spoken by most Indians and Pakistanis,
and they also will get you far in Indian diaspora circles in the West. In my
opinion, this makes them the top priority languages, regardless of the
quality of Hindi or Urdu culture. Languages are not simply carriers of
cultural values, they are also means of communication.
>What I find utterly depressing in this discussion is that people are using
>quantitative arguments in support of Hindi, while I seem to be the only one
>(besides Kichessamy) who tries to draw attention to the _qualitative_ side of
>communication.
Doesn't this strike you as a bit arrogant? I can't see that the quality of
communication improves if you speak broken Kannada instead of broken Hindi.
Like most linguists, I have my personal preferences when it comes to the
qualities of various languages and cultures, but I am careful not to
discriminate openly between languages and cultures. There is always more
than a touch of subjective feelings involved, and others may feel differently.
. All this
>quantitative, quasi-statistical argumentation, which is intended for
>maintaining / augmenting the disproportionate attention given to Hindi in
>Western academia, is just quasi-scientific garbage. It may also be garbage
>after the standards are stated, but then at least we can reasonably talk about
>it. :-)
Isn't this a rather emotional argument? Quantitative arguments are
important, given the fact that academic studies have to be funded. The
"weaker" languages may then survive under the protective cover of the
"strong" languages in the academic funding fray. Since this has already been
discussed by somebody else, I'll say no more.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Nov 20 17:42:11 1996
From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 11:42:11 -0600
Subject: Place of Hindi in Indology
Message-ID: <161227026980.23782.6443361664366507866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
[...]
>
> Doesn't this strike you as a bit arrogant? I can't see that the quality of
> communication improves if you speak broken Kannada instead of broken Hindi.
The quality of communication in Hindi with a native speaker of KannaDa who
only knows little or no Hindi is poor indeed.
Besides, are we talking about the languages helpful to a tourist, or to a
student of Indology?
[...]
>
> Isn't this a rather emotional argument? Quantitative arguments are
> important, given the fact that academic studies have to be funded. The
> "weaker" languages may then survive under the protective cover of the
> "strong" languages in the academic funding fray. Since this has already been
I guess the above argument amounts to:
(1) Hindi has, as I gather from this discussion, more funding than, say,
Sanskrit, without clear indological reasons;
(2) One should nevertheless give it the first place in Indology because
it receives this funding, rather than try to disseminate
information about other branches of Indology.
The idea is not to take funding away from Hindi, but to attract more
resources to Indology. This would benefit everybody, including Hindi
studies.
S. Kichenassamy
kichenas at math.umn.edu
From pf at cix.compulink.co.uk Wed Nov 20 12:06:00 1996
From: pf at cix.compulink.co.uk (pf at cix.compulink.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 12:06:00 +0000
Subject: Rajasthani
Message-ID: <161227026970.23782.8074793053034397022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In-Reply-To: <199611191032.LAA19649 at xs2.xs4all.nl>
Does anybody know where to get a Rajasthani (Marvari) dictionary. If
available at all?
Peter Fluegel
From GILLON at LANGS.Lan.McGill.CA Wed Nov 20 12:23:31 1996
From: GILLON at LANGS.Lan.McGill.CA (BRENDAN S. GILLON)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 12:23:31 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit Grammar: Passive Causative
Message-ID: <161227026978.23782.9889073180172087573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear colleagues,
I am currently teaching a course about the structure of Sanskrit
to graduate students in linguistics. The following question was
put to me, however, I have not been able to confirm my answer in
the standard grammars. I am hoping that someone might be able
to confirm my answer, or correct it.
The question pertains to the formation of passive from causatives
of verbs which take two objects. To make clear what I have in mind,
let me set down some examples:
(1.0) Devadatta.h maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam p.rcchati.
(1.1) Devadatta is asking the boy the way.
Passive is formed only with respect to maa.navaka (the boy), and
not with respect to panthaanam (the path).
(2.0) maa.navaka.h Devadattena panthaanam p.rcchyate.
(2.1) The boy is being asked the way by Devadatta.
(3.0) *panthaa.h Devadattena maa.navakam (maa.navake) p.rcchyate.
(3.1) *The way is being asked the boy by Devadatta.
Now, consider the causative form of the sentence in (1.0).
(4.0) Hari.h Devadattena maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam pracchayati.
(4.1) Hari has Devadatta ask the boy the way.
The question is: what are the passive options of the sentence in (4.0)?
On the general principle that the agent of the basic verb in active
causative constructions becomes the subject of the passive causative
construction, I conclude tha the first sentence below is correct.
(5.0) Devadatta.h Hari.naa maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam pracchyate.
(5.1) Devadatta is made by Hari to ask the boy the way.
The question is: is it the only version which is correct.
Speijer reports that some passive causatives have as their subjects
objects of the non-causative version of the verb.
(6.0) vi.sa-kanyayaa Raak.sasena dhaatita.h tapasvii Parvate'svara.h.
Rak\d{s}asa had a poison girl kill poor Parvate\'svara.
(Mudr. 1: cited in Speijer p. 38)
(Presumably, this sentence is ambiguous.) Do these possibilities
extend to verbs with double objects. That is, is the following
acceptable?
(7.0) maa.navaka.h Devadattena Hari.naa panthaanam pracchyate.
Any help with this question will be greatly appreciated?
Thanks in advance.\,
Brendan S. Gillon
Dept. of Linguistics
McGill University
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Nov 20 17:55:08 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227026981.23782.2875884314553894383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> [...] in particular (Meadow 1991 below). In the chapter which John
> Lukacs worked on, there is an unequivocal assertion of significant
> population changes in the centuries prior to 800 B.C.
In `Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia', K. A. R. Kennedy writes (pp 49--54)
``Evidence of demographic discontinuities is present in our study, but the
first occurs between 6000 and 4500 B.C (a seperation between the Neolithic
and Chalcolithic populations of Mehrgarh) and the second is >after 800 B.C.,
the discontinuity being between the peoples of Harappa, Chalcolithic Mehrgarh
and post-Harrapan Timargarha on the one hand and the late Bronze Age and
early Iron Age inhabitants of Sarai Khola on the other. ''
This is the problem I have with much of the discussions on this topic.
Whom do I believe? Did the population change (actually change in the
cranioetric data) occur before or after 800 BC? (now add the fact that
change in cranioetric data can occur due to causes other than population
change).
When I take the trouble to check some of the ``data'' presented, I come
across troubling inconsistencies which the debaters want to ignore
and fail to answer the questions. (which is why I am not participating
in sci.archaeology debate. Usenet is awful in this regard.)
From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Nov 20 19:24:53 1996
From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 13:24:53 -0600
Subject: Info Request
Message-ID: <161227026986.23782.16880700005470301952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Could anyone please help with e-mail contacts of either of the following:
Dr. Bhatkar of CDAC in Pune, or Shashank Bhatt of GIST/CDAC?
Also Prof. Kashyap at Purdue University?
Or Prof S. Sadagopan of IIM Bangalore?
I am most grateful in advance for any help on these matters.
John Robert Gardner
Obermann Center for Advanced Studies
University of Iowa
From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de Wed Nov 20 13:15:31 1996
From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 14:15:31 +0100
Subject: Q: IOL catalog
Message-ID: <161227026975.23782.10292016320036279951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>> Gary J Hausman sagte :
> I don't know whether this stuff is either online or in print, but
> I can give you bibliographial references for those catalogs that I read
> through during a visit to Orbit House in 1992:
>
> 1) A Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the British Museum,
> Compiled by L. D. Barnett & G. O. Pope, 1909.
> 2) A Supplementary Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the
> 3) Second Supplementary Catalogue of Tamil Books in the British Library
Thanks for the information! Recently I found 'a catalogue of Telugu books
in the lib. of British Museum', compiled by the same person: L. D. Barnett,
in U. of Gvttingen library.
========
A Catalogue of the Telugu books in the Library of the British Museum /
Compiles by L. D. Barnett. - London, 1912
Signatur: LS1:KMC 200:a = 4 HLL IX, 2433
========
I am curious to know if there are any supplemenatries to the above mentioned
book also.
Thanks and regards,
Sreenivas
--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Nov 20 19:51:13 1996
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 14:51:13 -0500
Subject: Uniform transliteration of Brahmic scripts
Message-ID: <161227026985.23782.14330462748384036604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>>Does this mean that the Tamil word for fruit is to
>>transcribed as `pa.zam'?
....
>>Though collapsing it with l, L or y is fairly common).
^^^
Captured quite nonchalantly by the film song of yore
elanda payam, elanda payam, yAAAA....
cekka civanda payam !
-Srini.
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Nov 20 20:48:37 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 15:48:37 -0500
Subject: Origin of retroflexes: answers to Hock's objections?
Message-ID: <161227026990.23782.16408811184664348882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Now seems to be a good time to ask this question, as this seems to be
the time for controversies in INDOLOGY. And now that Dominic himself
has broken the `two screenfuls' rule, I feel free to send this long
post. [And this does have something to do with `Aryan Invasion Theory'.]
I am trying locate any answers to Hock's objections to the often made
claim that retroflex consonants of IA are due to Dravidian speakers
`mispronouncing' Proto-Indo-Iranian words. (The only paper of Hock
I have read in this regard is the one in `Ideology and Status of
Sanskrit'. But I understand that the objection discussed below is older.
At least I was aware of this objection before reading that paper.)
IMHO, the most serious objection Hock raises is that proto-Dravidian
has a >three-way< contrast: dental vs alveolar vs retroflex (for
non-nasal stops). So why would a proto-Dravidian speaker confuse an
alveolar stop with a retroflex one? Many papers I have seen, which argue
that `Dravidians, with dental vs retroflex contrast, mispronounced
the undifferentiated dento-alveolars of PIIr, thus introducing retroflex
stops into IA', never address this objection. I would like pointers to
papers which do so.
Looking at the references usually quoted, I noticed an intriguing fact:
Most of the basic references date from 1972 or earlier, some (such as
the ones by Bloch and Kuiper) being much older. Kamil Zvelebil, in his
`Comparative Dravidian Phonology', published in 1970, goes into great
detail to argue that the `vallina ra' of Tamil etc, are reflexes of
alveolar in proto-Dravidian, suggesting that the realization that
proto-Dravidian had a three way contrast dates from the 70's. I am not
sure how to interpret this.
In the paper of Hock I mentioned, he does not address the issue of the
nasal. So I will describe some details which will bore the
Dravidianologist. I beg your indulgence.
Malayalam is said to have a three way contrast of dental (n) vs
alveolar (_n) vs retroflex (.n). Tamil has this in the writing system;
but there are really only two phonemes: `n' occurs (mostly?) in
word-initial position and before `t'; `_n' and `.n' occur in other
positions. Zvelebil mentions two words from Old Tamil literature
ending in `n'. But he proposes that originally these ended in `nt(u)'.
So I will ignore them. He also says that `n' and `nn' are in free
variation with `_n' and `_n_n'. But the examples he gives are borrowed
from Sanskrit where `n'/`nn' reflect the Sanskritic pronunciation
while `_n'/`_n_n' reflect the Tamil pronunciation. So I am not convinced
that n and _n are in free variation, instead of being dependent on
adjoining phonemes.
As I just hinted, alveolar _n and retroflex .n are separate phonemes
in Tamil. In my experience, words borrowed from Sanskrit are pronounced
with _n/_n_n intervocalically instead of n/nn. But never with .n/.n.n.
[I wonder if Malayalam has n vs _n contrast due different treatments
of n in Sanskrit words and n/_n in Dravidian words.]
Zvelebil constructs two phonemes, one a >dental-alveolar< and the
contrasting retroflex. DEDR lists them as `n' and .n, but does not
get into issues of pronunciation except to note that Tamil, Malayalam
etc have n or _n in place of their `n'. More interesting is the fact
that more northerly Dravidian languages generally collapse the two into
a single phoneme.
So, the evidence suggests that proto-Dravidian had two phonemes,
one retroflex, the other having a dental and an alveolar allophones.
This distinction is fully preserved in South Dravidian, but tends to
get lost in North Dravidian.
How do the proponents of `retroflexes are due to Dravidians mispronouncing
alveolars' explain the above? Dravidians may have converted word-initial
alveolar nasal to dental, but why would they convert alveolar nasal to
retroflex when they belong to distinct phonemes? And why is North
Dravidian going in the opposite direction, erasing the preexisting
distinction?
There is another, touchier point, that I feel compelled to raise:
Tamil converts intervocalic dental nasal to alveolar. But NIA speakers
tend to hear alveolars as retroflexes. So Sanskrit `janaka' will become
Tamil `ja_naka' which the North Indian will hear as `ja.naka'. This
would give rise to the stereotype that `Dravidians pronounce dentals
as retroflexes' among North Indians. Did this stereotype play a role
in the genesis of `Dravidians mispronounced dento-alveolars as
retroflexes' theory?
This would be most ironic, as the stereotype is due to the inability
of the >IA< speaker to distinguish alveolar from retroflex, while the
Tamilians must, can and do distinguish them.
I will break off here, and raise my third question at a latter time.
-Nath
Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341
From mgansten at sbbs.se Wed Nov 20 17:02:12 1996
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 18:02:12 +0100
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit (was Re: The Coming of the Greeks)
Message-ID: <161227026983.23782.17668376052792846414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
For those interested in the 'Aryan migration' topic, there was quite a
lively debate on RISA-L recently; others may know better than I how to get
hold of the postings. If nothing else, I believe it showed that the statement:
>Several lines of evidence converge on this, and there doesn't seem to be a
>lot of room left for disagreement.
-- may need to be revised.
Martin Gansten
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed Nov 20 20:37:48 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 20:37:48 +0000
Subject: Place of Hindi in Indology
Message-ID: <161227026988.23782.10419252288359185220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
I have found that while speaking in Hindi, I use Bhojpuri words (which I think
are 'genuine' Hindi words!) quite 'naturally'. In fact, I discovered this while
speaking, in Hindi, to someone who was from Gharwal. So, this problem of
communicating in Hindi is not only a North-South problem but a North-North one
too! :-)
I would like to know whether any kind of research in Bhojpuri is being done,
either in India or elsewhere. If so, I would appreciate getting some details,
please. Many thanks beforehand for any information.
Bye,
Girish Beeharry
From lpatton at emory.edu Thu Nov 21 01:39:05 1996
From: lpatton at emory.edu (Laurie Patton)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 20:39:05 -0500
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit (was Re: The Coming of the Greeks)
Message-ID: <161227026994.23782.7598580223584516245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The RISA-L web site (and digests of discussion, as well as a small biblio)
can be found at: http://www.acusd.edu/~lnelson/risa
Laurie Patton
Dept. Religion
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Martin Gansten wrote:
> For those interested in the 'Aryan migration' topic, there was quite a
> lively debate on RISA-L recently; others may know better than I how to get
> hold of the postings. If nothing else, I believe it showed that the statement:
>
> >Several lines of evidence converge on this, and there doesn't seem to be a
> >lot of room left for disagreement.
>
> -- may need to be revised.
>
> Martin Gansten
>
>
From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Thu Nov 21 01:44:05 1996
From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 09:44:05 +0800
Subject: i[...] c[...] (I thought it was banned?...)
Message-ID: <161227026993.23782.5715462641252422486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 10:07 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
....................deleted.........................
> The bottom line
>is, however, the following: If several speakers of different Indic
>languages, none of whom have Hindi as a mother tongue, and given that none
>of them speak English, are having a chat, which language would they prefer
>to use as a means of communication? In principle any Indic language can be
>used, but I would guess that the one most frequently popping up would be
Hindi.
>
This depends on whether the two persons concerned are both of South Indian
ORigin, One from South India and the other from North India; or both from
North India.
I know for a fact that Indologist visitors to Kerala (my native State) from
Karnataka who does not speak English tends to communicate in Sanskrit rather
than in Hindi. This is confined to Indologists only, since most, if not all,
Indian Indologist knows Sanskrit as much as they know their on mother tounge.
Regards....Das
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Nov 21 09:43:13 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 10:43:13 +0100
Subject: Place of Hindi in Indology
Message-ID: <161227026996.23782.18023849349822502992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
S. Kichenassamy wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> Doesn't this strike you as a bit arrogant? I can't see that the quality of
>> communication improves if you speak broken Kannada instead of broken Hindi.
>The quality of communication in Hindi with a native speaker of KannaDa who
>only knows little or no Hindi is poor indeed.
So, presumably, would it be if you communicated in KannaDa with a Hindi
speaker who knew no KannaDa.
>Besides, are we talking about the languages helpful to a tourist, or to a
>student of Indology?
No, we are speaking about languages helpful to various categories of people
who for some reason would like to master an Indic language: Scholars wanting
to communicate with Indians who are unable to speak English (about 97% of
the Indian population), business men or others (even tourists!) who might
want to do the same thing, or simply be able to read Indian newspapers or
documents that are not written in English. If you are living and working in
one particular place (e.g. Bengal, Tamil Nadu), you would naturally want to
learn the local language, but if you are not connected with a certain Indian
region, you would want to learn the language that will get you further than
the others.
>> Isn't this a rather emotional argument? Quantitative arguments are
>> important, given the fact that academic studies have to be funded. The
>> "weaker" languages may then survive under the protective cover of the
>> "strong" languages in the academic funding fray. Since this has already been
>
>I guess the above argument amounts to:
>
> (1) Hindi has, as I gather from this discussion, more funding than, say,
> Sanskrit, without clear indological reasons;
> (2) One should nevertheless give it the first place in Indology because
> it receives this funding, rather than try to disseminate
> information about other branches of Indology.
The argument makes no assumptions regarding the funding of Hindi as against
Sanskrit. Sanskrit is probably just as well represented as Hindi. The
competition is between Hindi/Urdu and the other Indic languages, such as
Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu etc., and the basic
question is: To what extent are you able to convince university (or other)
authorities that it is a good idea to invest in, say, Bengali or Tamil
studies (that is: hire a person to teach these languages). Since funds are
limited, funders will probably ask the following questions: How many
students are interested? How stable will the interest be in the future? In
what way will it benefit the national economy or some other vital national
interest? Why should we bother with Indic studies at all? etc. etc. It is
easier to argue in favour of Hindi/Urdu than in favour of any other Indic
language. But given that you get a position for Hindi and/or Urdu, the
relevant teacher will most probably be able to do one or more other Indic
languages as well, and so the "minor" languages are served to a certain
extent. It is, as you see, a matter of pragmatic argumentation. If you are
lucky, and your university is rich, you may even be able to introduce
studies just because of their intrinsic academic and cultural value. But in
our commercialized days, chances are slight for that sort of miracle.
>The idea is not to take funding away from Hindi, but to attract more
>resources to Indology. This would benefit everybody, including Hindi
>studies.
We would all like more money for Indology. In a similar manner, all and
sundry in the academic world want more money for their particular lines of
study - unfortunately in a world of diminishing contributions to Academia. I
am convinced that if we are unable to offer "society" something which
society thinks is "useful" (in the very limited and slightly imbecile way
the word is used by politicians and business people), we shall not be able
to preserve the values of free study and thought that we all cherish.
Hindi/Urdu can be peddled to the general public as "useful" studies, simply
because they *are* useful (they are also interesting in their own right, but
that is not a valid argument in this context. These days, politicians are
not necessarily willing to pay academics to pursue their pet hobbies). Given
the state of the political mind, it is more difficult to argue in favour of
the "usefulness" of other Indic languages. Here statistics matter. Sorry.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Nov 21 10:08:10 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:08:10 +0100
Subject: Origin of retroflexes: answers to Hock's objections?
Message-ID: <161227026998.23782.3773501974663391362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Nath Rao wrote:
>
>Now seems to be a good time to ask this question, as this seems to be
>the time for controversies in INDOLOGY. And now that Dominic himself
>has broken the `two screenfuls' rule, I feel free to send this long
>post. [And this does have something to do with `Aryan Invasion Theory'.]
>
>I am trying locate any answers to Hock's objections to the often made
>claim that retroflex consonants of IA are due to Dravidian speakers
>`mispronouncing' Proto-Indo-Iranian words. (The only paper of Hock
>I have read in this regard is the one in `Ideology and Status of
>Sanskrit'. But I understand that the objection discussed below is older.
>At least I was aware of this objection before reading that paper.)
I have a very marginal note here (I am not familiar with the Dravidian
languages and can therefore not participate in the discussion at a higher
level).
Retroflex sounds in IA languages may have evolved as a result of the contact
between Dravidian and Indo-Aryan languages, but they may also have evolved
for purely internal reasons. Such sounds also exist in some European
languages, among others in East Norwegian, where e.g. the consonant cluster
rt has developed into a retroflex .t. Thus, you will find that "kart" (map)
is pronounced ka.t in East Norwegian, and you get the minimal pair
kart [ka.t] katt [kat]
=map =cat
It is tempting to compare e.g. the development of Skt. k.rta > Pkt. ka.ta.
As for the distinction between dentals, alveolars and retroflexes, we do not
know for sure if this distinction was alive and well in Northern India at
the time of the arrival of the Aryans. Hypotheses concerning the interaction
between Dravidian and IA languages will therefore remain hypothetic. If,
however, the Aryans developed a certain amount of retroflex sounds due to
internal phonetic development, they may have felt that Dravidian words with
alveolars - if they existed - "sounded" like words with retroflexes and
therefore adopted these words with retroflexes. There may, in other words,
be several reasons for the "retroflexisation" of IA languages.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Thu Nov 21 20:21:32 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:21:32 -0500
Subject: Origin of retroflexes: answers to Hock's objections?
Message-ID: <161227027000.23782.1504815017171738603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> As for the distinction between dentals, alveolars and retroflexes, we do not
> know for sure if this distinction was alive and well in Northern India at
> the time of the arrival of the Aryans.
I would assume that the primary approach towards answering this would be
to study the historic development of Dravidian. Just as we reconstruct
proto-IIr, proto-Germanic etc, we can try to reconstruct proto-North
Dravidian, proto-South dravidian etc. It is the lack of references
to such efforts in treatments of the ``substrtum hypothesis'' that
bothers me.
If I want to study the influence of Dravidian on IA, shouldn't I start
by studying the historical developement of Dravidian and of IA, with
attempts at correlating their chronology?
> [...] If however, the Aryans developed a certain amount of retroflex
> sounds due to internal phonetic development, they may have felt that
> Dravidian words with alveolars - if they existed - "sounded" like words
> with retroflexes and therefore adopted these words with retroflexes.
Hey, you stole my line :-)
I had the perfect line to add after my third question (which I promise to
post after Thanskgiving): ``It would be more credible to argue that
the spread of retroflexes in IA is due to Aryans mispronouncing
Dravidian words than the other way around.''
Now I have to think up something else.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
-Nath Rao
From imj at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 21 23:54:51 1996
From: imj at u.washington.edu (South Asia Section)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:54:51 -0800
Subject: Q: IOL catalog
Message-ID: <161227027003.23782.5140046775907845847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Those interested in the BL catalogs might be interested to know that many
are being reproduced by Booklab in Austin Texas. I do not know if it is
still possible to order them. Those interested should contact Jim Nye at
the University of Chicago Library who made the arrangements for their
reproduction. jnye at midway.uchicago.edu
South Asia Section
Irene Joshi, M.L.S.
South Asia Librarian
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, Washington, 98195-2900
U.S.A.
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote:
> >> Gary J Hausman sagte :
>
> > I don't know whether this stuff is either online or in print, but
> > I can give you bibliographial references for those catalogs that I read
> > through during a visit to Orbit House in 1992:
> >
> > 1) A Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the British Museum,
> > Compiled by L. D. Barnett & G. O. Pope, 1909.
> > 2) A Supplementary Catalogue of the Tamil Books in the Library of the
> > 3) Second Supplementary Catalogue of Tamil Books in the British Library
>
> Thanks for the information! Recently I found 'a catalogue of Telugu books
> in the lib. of British Museum', compiled by the same person: L. D. Barnett,
> in U. of Gvttingen library.
> ========
> A Catalogue of the Telugu books in the Library of the British Museum /
> Compiles by L. D. Barnett. - London, 1912
>
> Signatur: LS1:KMC 200:a = 4 HLL IX, 2433
> ========
>
> I am curious to know if there are any supplemenatries to the above mentioned
> book also.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Sreenivas
>
> --
> E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
>
>
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Nov 21 21:07:35 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 22:07:35 +0100
Subject: Origin of retroflexes: answers to Hock's objections?
Message-ID: <161227027001.23782.12253942190044587490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 20:32 21.11.96 GMT, you wrote:
>Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>> As for the distinction between dentals, alveolars and retroflexes, we do not
>> know for sure if this distinction was alive and well in Northern India at
>> the time of the arrival of the Aryans.
>
>I would assume that the primary approach towards answering this would be
>to study the historic development of Dravidian. Just as we reconstruct
>proto-IIr, proto-Germanic etc, we can try to reconstruct proto-North
>Dravidian, proto-South dravidian etc. It is the lack of references
>to such efforts in treatments of the ``substrtum hypothesis'' that
>bothers me.
As a non-Dravidist, I am here at a loss! I don't know what is going on in
Dravidology. But in principle, of course, you are right. The problem with
historical phonology is, however, that things develop at a different pace in
different places. Some languages are incredibly conservative, whereas others
develop incredibly fast. And the problem with Dravidian languages as far as
a I know is that the earliest sources are only about 2200 years old (Tamil).
For the oldest Indo-European languages, you may add another 1000 years or
more (the oldest Hittite sources go back to about 1800 B.C.E.). Thus, even
if we are able to reconstruct a system with dentals, alveolars and
retroflexes for Proto-Dravidian, we cannot say exactly when this system
disappeared in the areas where the Indo-Aryans and the Dravidians met. At
least in theory, it may have gone down the drain before the Indo-Aryans
arrived on the scene. But before I make a complete fool of myself discussing
something about which I know nothing, I'll leave the matter to Dravidologists!
>Hey, you stole my line :-)
Nice! :-)
>I had the perfect line to add after my third question (which I promise to
>post after Thanskgiving): ``It would be more credible to argue that
>the spread of retroflexes in IA is due to Aryans mispronouncing
>Dravidian words than the other way around.''
>
>Now I have to think up something else.
I should think that both parties would be mispronouncing each others' words.
That is usually the way it is. (If you ever get a chance to watch a British
TV sit-com called "'Allo 'Allo" you will see what GRAND mispronunciation can
achieve).
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Nov 22 16:47:57 1996
From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 08:47:57 -0800
Subject: On Bindi, Tikka or Tilak
Message-ID: <161227027008.23782.14543583987510364610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
A few years ago Dr. Priyabala Shah wrote a book on Tilak. The book traces
the origin and the meaning of tilak. You might find the answer you are
looking for. The book was published from Ahmedabad and the title of the
book is Tilak. I am afraid I don't remember the name of the publisher.
But she could be contacted at 12 Sadma Society, Ahamedabad.
Mandakranta Bose
Department of Religious Studies
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
V6T 1Z1
mbose at unixg.ubc.ca
On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Inst. Of Asian Cultures wrote:
>
> Dear Indologists,
>
> I write this on behalf of a colleague who is not a member of this list.
> She says:
>
>
> I am still looking for documentation on the linkage between the
> "tikka" worn on Hindu women's foreheads and the concept of Shakti. I'd
> appreciate anything you might be able to tell me. Keep in touch.
>
>
> I remember having read a few posts on this subject but I am not sure if
> they appeared on this list. Since I have been unable to search the
> Indology archives (I have misplaced the http://... address), hence this
> request for assistance. Would appreciate your indulgence in this matter.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sushil Jain
> asia at uwindsor.ca
>
>
From magier at columbia.edu Fri Nov 22 14:38:32 1996
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 09:38:32 -0500
Subject: [tkbhatia@mailbox.syr.edu: Re: South Asian Languages and Linguistics]
Message-ID: <161227027007.23782.12579859422734400698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I was asked to forward this announcement and request for information
from a colleague, so I am posting this to your listserv or mailing
list. Apologies if any unintentional cross-posting results. Please
respond DIRECTLY to Professor Bhatia if you have any information for
him. Thanks. David Magier
---------------
From: tkbhatia at mailbox.syr.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:36:56 -0500
To: David Magier
Subject: Re: South Asian Languages and Linguistics
Dear David, I would be be grateful if you could pass the following
information to our fellow South Asian Netters...
============================
Dear Colleagues:
The Sage is going to begin publishing a Yearbook of South Asian
Languages and Linguistics which will contain (among other things)
field reports of work on South Asian languages in various regions of
the world. I am in the process of writing the feild report from the
North American region. I'd be grateful to hear about any research on
these languages conducted particularly in the North America. Many
thanks in advance for your assistance in letting us put together
integrated information about the work in question.
Tej K. Bhatia
Professor of Linguistics
Syracuse UNiversity
Syracuse, New York 13244-1160
tel: 315-443-5374 (off)
315-449-2607 (H)
Fax: 315-443-5376
Email: tkbhatia at mailbox.syr.edu
Tej Bhatia
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri Nov 22 10:04:10 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 10:04:10 +0000
Subject: [For forwarding to indology]
Message-ID: <161227027005.23782.17014503696762393633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
------- Start of forwarded message -------
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanskrit Digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 458
Today's topics:
SPEAK SANSKRIT classes by Sri Krishna Shastry - Call for Volunteers
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Vvmurthy at aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:41:46 -0500
Subject: SPEAK SANSKRIT classes by Sri Krishna Shastry - Call for Volunteers
`SPEAK SANSKRIT' classes by Sri Krishna Shastry: Mar-May 1997
Last year's tour of Sri Krishna shastry was a big success with more
than 1000 people attending his classes all over USA. Speaking Sanskrit
looked so easy for those who attended the classes for 6-8 hours. His
stay was very short in each city and only a glimps at the new teaching
techniques for sanskrit could be given. A rare combination of humor,
wit and his dynamism made the classes very lively.
This year, we plan to organize full 20 hours classes for 7 days in each
city and also weekend camps for teachers training in few cities.
Alongwith Sri Krishna Shastry, we will have other two experienced
teachers in spoken Sanskrit- Sri Vishwas, Chief Editor of the
Sanskrit monthly "Sambhashana Sandeshah" and Sri Vasuvaj, co-ordinator
for Samskrita Bharati in Kerala and Tamilnadu. Both of them have
conducted more than 300 `Speak Sanskrit in 10 days' classes.
Other than the 15 cities that Shri Shastry visited last year, we plan to have
these
classes in few more cities where there is enough interest and volunteers to
co-ordinate. Cities where we will definitely have the classes are San
Francisco,
Los Angeles, Houston, New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia, Washington DC,
Boston, Miami, Orlando, Columbus, Chicago and Atlanta.
NEED VOLUNTEERS : It will be a memorable experience to work with a
group of energetic and enthusiastic volunteers from all over USA to
promote Sanskrit. The tremendous interest for Samskrit in USA and the
enthusiastic
work done by volunteers contributed to the great success last year. We expect
more volunteers to join us this year to take this movement to still greater
heights.
Please send an email to volunteer. Any talent and any
amount of time you have will be useful (Even internet time is counted:)
Venkatesh Murthy (vvmurthy at aol.com)
(815) 741-9553
- ------------------------------
End of Sanskrit Digest V1 #458
******************************
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From d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk Fri Nov 22 21:19:59 1996
From: d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk (DAVID SMITH)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 21:19:59 +0000
Subject: E-mail address for Robert L. Brown and for Michael Hahn
Message-ID: <161227027010.23782.11348918134585146847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Can anyone give me e-mail address for Robert L. Brown, and for Michael
Hahn? Thanks.
David Smith
Dept of Religious Studies
Lancaster University
UK
d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk
From apandey at u.washington.edu Sat Nov 23 10:48:13 1996
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 02:48:13 -0800
Subject: Query: Brahmins and Vedic Schools.
Message-ID: <161227027016.23782.11597054319301849566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I am wondering whether there exists some sort of text or source which
provides details as to which vedic school a certain clan within a
certain brahmanical community (specifically: Kanaujiyas, Sarayuparis)
belonged.
In regards to the Kanaujiyas and the Sarayuparis, there exist for these
communities documents called 'vanshavalis', but I simply cannot get ahold
of these documents. Surprisingly, the copy of the 'vanshavali' of the
Kanaujiyas is missing from the libraries here. It seems that even in Uttar
Pradesh - stronghold of these two groups - such documents are a rare find.
I immensely appreciate any leads or references to sources where I could
examine this issue in a greater light and in a more detailed manner.
Thank you.
Regards,
Anshuman Pandey
From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sat Nov 23 09:36:01 1996
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 03:36:01 -0600
Subject: Q: The Goddess Sati & Indian Geography
Message-ID: <161227027014.23782.3734709382298507002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Greetings,
Query: Can someone please guide me to the text(s) in which the following
Goddess tale appears:
The story is about Sati, Shiva's wife, who, having become angry at her
father, for snubbing her famous if rather unconventional husband, by not
inviting Him to a yajna, went to the ceremony herself, and (here's where
I've heard more than one version of the story) either spontaneously burst
into flames and exploded, her body parts flying across India. . . . Or, in
the other version, Sati leapt into the sacrificial fire. Shiva, on hearing
that his wife had immolated herself, races to the scene, and taking her
charred remains on his shoulders, begins to dance and wreak havoc on the
earth. The other gods take pity on the earth who is being damaged by
Siva's anger. If I have the story right, Vishnu, by throwing his discus at
Sati's corpse, piece by piece cuts the body up, the as the parts fly across
India. Soon there is no body left and Siva stops his dance of destruction.
My questions are:
(1) In which text(s) can this story be located? I have looked through
several anthologies of Puranic tales, Hindu goddess books, etc., and have
been unsuccessful at locating the exact scriptural citation.
(2) I am interested in the last part of this tale, in which Sati's body
parts are flying far and wide across India. I want to know where they are
suppose to have landed. I know that one of her eyes fell in Nainital and
created the lake there, her head (I guess minus one eye) fell at Sirkanda
Devi, near Mussoorie . . . I have seen photos of other temples dedicated to
various other parts of her body (even her private parts). Can someone
please tell me if there is an article or reference that maps the
geographical locations of Sati's discorporate body parts across the South
Asian terrain? I have heard that there are (were?) 54 such temples or
locations to be found from Sindh to Orissa to Kanyakumari and of course in
the Himalayas.
Thank you,
Yvette C. Rosser
University of Texas at Austin
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Nov 23 07:28:19 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 07:28:19 +0000
Subject: Spoken Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227027012.23782.6645816679254788257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:17:57 GMT
From: Girish Beeharry
Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
To: Members of the list
Subject: [For forwarding to indology]
------- Start of forwarded message -------
Sanskrit Digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 458
Today's topics:
SPEAK SANSKRIT classes by Sri Krishna Shastry - Call for Volunteers
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From: Vvmurthy at aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:41:46 -0500
Subject: SPEAK SANSKRIT classes by Sri Krishna Shastry - Call for Volunteers
`SPEAK SANSKRIT' classes by Sri Krishna Shastry: Mar-May 1997
Last year's tour of Sri Krishna shastry was a big success with more than
1000 people attending his classes all over USA. Speaking Sanskrit looked
so easy for those who attended the classes for 6-8 hours. His stay was
very short in each city and only a glimps at the new teaching techniques
for sanskrit could be given. A rare combination of humor, wit and his
dynamism made the classes very lively.
This year, we plan to organize full 20 hours classes for 7 days in each
city and also weekend camps for teachers training in few cities.
Alongwith Sri Krishna Shastry, we will have other two experienced teachers
in spoken Sanskrit- Sri Vishwas, Chief Editor of the Sanskrit monthly
"Sambhashana Sandeshah" and Sri Vasuvaj, co-ordinator for Samskrita
Bharati in Kerala and Tamilnadu. Both of them have conducted more than 300
`Speak Sanskrit in 10 days' classes.
Other than the 15 cities that Shri Shastry visited last year, we plan to
have these classes in few more cities where there is enough interest and
volunteers to co-ordinate. Cities where we will definitely have the
classes are San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, New Jersey, New York,
Philadelphia, Washington DC, Boston, Miami, Orlando, Columbus, Chicago and
Atlanta.
NEED VOLUNTEERS : It will be a memorable experience to work with a group
of energetic and enthusiastic volunteers from all over USA to promote
Sanskrit. The tremendous interest for Samskrit in USA and the enthusiastic
work done by volunteers contributed to the great success last year. We
expect more volunteers to join us this year to take this movement to still
greater heights. Please send an email to volunteer. Any talent and any
amount of time you have will be useful (Even internet time is counted:)
Venkatesh Murthy (vvmurthy at aol.com)
(815) 741-9553
- ------------------------------
End of Sanskrit Digest V1 #458
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From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Sat Nov 23 15:35:08 1996
From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 10:35:08 -0500
Subject: Q: The Goddess Sati & Indian Geography
Message-ID: <161227027020.23782.13546384846749446397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 09:43 AM 11/23/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Query: Can someone please guide me to the text(s) in which the following
>Goddess tale appears:
>
>The story is about Sati, Shiva's wife, who, having become angry at her
>father, for snubbing her famous if rather unconventional husband, by not
>inviting Him to a yajna, went to the ceremony herself, and (here's where
>I've heard more than one version of the story) either spontaneously burst
>into flames and exploded, her body parts flying across India. . . . Or, in
>the other version, Sati leapt into the sacrificial fire. Shiva, on hearing
>that his wife had immolated herself, races to the scene, and taking her
>charred remains on his shoulders, begins to dance and wreak havoc on the
>earth. The other gods take pity on the earth who is being damaged by
>Siva's anger. If I have the story right, Vishnu, by throwing his discus at
>Sati's corpse, piece by piece cuts the body up, the as the parts fly across
>India. Soon there is no body left and Siva stops his dance of destruction.
>
>My questions are:
>(1) In which text(s) can this story be located? I have looked through
>several anthologies of Puranic tales, Hindu goddess books, etc., and have
>been unsuccessful at locating the exact scriptural citation.
This story is found in several puraanas:
vaamana p. 25.1 and following
ziva zatarudra 33.1 -
ziva vaayaviiya 1.18.4-
vaamana p 6.25,-
ziva p 2.2 and following (daksha's sacrifice)
kaalikaa p 2-42
>
>(2) I am interested in the last part of this tale, in which Sati's body
>parts are flying far and wide across India. I want to know where they are
>suppose to have landed. I know that one of her eyes fell in Nainital and
>created the lake there, her head (I guess minus one eye) fell at Sirkanda
>Devi, near Mussoorie . . . I have seen photos of other temples dedicated to
>various other parts of her body (even her private parts). Can someone
>please tell me if there is an article or reference that maps the
>geographical locations of Sati's discorporate body parts across the South
>Asian terrain? I have heard that there are (were?) 54 such temples or
>locations to be found from Sindh to Orissa to Kanyakumari and of course in
>the Himalayas.
There a few essays in "The Divine Consort. Radha and the Goddessess of
Inida" which address the issue of Sati's dismemberment and the associations
of places where parts of her body fell with pithas.
Also, David Kinsley's "The Hindu Goddess, Visions of the Divine Feminine
inthe Hindu Religious Tradition" has a chapter entitled 'The Goddess and
Sacred Geography.'
These are few places to start.
Good luck
Carlos Lopez
Dept. of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
Harvard University
From mgansten at sbbs.se Sat Nov 23 11:08:57 1996
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 12:08:57 +0100
Subject: Q: The Goddess Sati & Indian Geography
Message-ID: <161227027018.23782.1537227894698736421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>Query: Can someone please guide me to the text(s) in which the following
>Goddess tale appears:
The 4th skandha of the Bhagavata Purana (chapters 2-7) has one version of
this tale. I'm not sure whether the 'geographical' part is included, though.
Martin Gansten
mgansten at sbbs.se
From jkcowart at io-online.com Sun Nov 24 04:13:39 1996
From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 20:13:39 -0800
Subject: Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar
Message-ID: <161227027021.23782.4601175573507320941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Can anyone help me locate a text about Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar?
I believe it is in the Yoga Vasistha (although Venkatesandanda's Concise YV
edition does not contain it).
In the version I have heard, Janaka undergoes a sudden, momentary shift in
consciousness during which he is not a king but a beggar--with all the
beggar's lifetime of experiences and relationships as his own.
Almost instantly, his consciousness shifts back again, whereupon he asks
Yajnavalkya whether he is the King who dreamt of himself as a beggar or the
beggar now dreaming of himself as a king. Yajnavalkya replies "Lord thou art
both--and neither" (or words to that effect).
This recounting may not be altogether accurate, which is why I seek the
original text and its source.
Additionally, does anyone know where I might obtain either
1) an English or German translation of the complete Yoga Vasistha,
itself; and
2) any other available resource in either language which contains
the material I seek?
I would greatly appreciate any assistance at all.
Thank you,
J. Kingston Cowart
San Diego, California
From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun Nov 24 10:09:16 1996
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 10:09:16 +0000
Subject: Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar
Message-ID: <161227027023.23782.608709698984658427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The "beggar" story doesn't appear in _The Concise Yogavasistha_ tr. Swami
Venkatesananda (Albany, New York: SUNY Press, 1984). The story of King
Janaka is recounted there (pp.164 ff.), but he achieves insight through
reflection alone, and his interlocutor is not Yajnavalkya, but Vasistha.
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine
183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England.
FAX +44-171-611-8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html
From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Mon Nov 25 01:33:40 1996
From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 19:33:40 -0600
Subject: Q: Proto-Siva
Message-ID: <161227027027.23782.15527737749482735857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Ganesan wrote:
ng> ..that Siva is a late-comer to the Hindu Pantheon and was not invited to
the yagnas...
and Witzel wrote ;
mw> ..the earliest vedic evidence on the relative lateness and the grudging
mw> acceptance of Shivais the following:
mw> the gods did not recognize Rudra who had gone to Heaven and Walked about..
>
>
However, these represent a particular point of view and I would like to add the
following:
InIndra, the most prominent devata in RgVeda, is addressed by the epithet Shiva
many many times in RgVeda (for example, RV 2, 20.3). In the context in which
it is used, the epithet carries the same significance as that of Shiva in the
Puranas. It also carries the attached significance of destroyer of evil and
imparter of welfare and affluence. Indra is also referred to as Aghora more
than a hundred times and together with Ugra, which are names of Shiva. He is
also referred to as Abhayankara and Kaalaatmaka (RV 10.55.5) In fact, we have
the Shiva of Puranas in Indra. When one considers the following:
"sa brahma sa shivaha sa harihi sendraha....",it is clear that aspects of Shiva
of the Puranas are not new or late in coming, but are there in Indra in the
Vedas already.
RgVeda proclaims "ekam sadvipraa bahudha vadanti..", " yo devaanaam naamadha
eka eva.."
As to the incident referred to by MW in Katha Aranyaka, one may point to a
similar incident described in Kena Upanishad: the allegory of the
gods'ignorance of Brahman when he appears as a yaksha. In the words of
Renou, ".. in the doings of gods there are several levels of significance.
Abstract ideas lie behind many instances of hypostatization..".
To say that Shiva is a late-comer might actually do what Renou refers to as
"..violence to vedic terminology". Sadaashivom iti- Narahari Achar
From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE Sun Nov 24 19:39:44 1996
From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 20:39:44 +0100
Subject: Belvalkar: kAvyadarsha
Message-ID: <161227027025.23782.10605026482238713832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
CALL FOR HELP:
Could somebody help me out with a xeroxcopy of Belvalkars translation of
Kavdarsha I and II ?
The booklet has vanished from the library where I had used it - and here
around, I cant trace a copy. I need it urgently for completing my thesis.
Thanks. ULRIKE
ULRIKE NIKLAS
INSTITUT FUER INDOLOGIE
UNIVERSITAET ZU KOELN
POHLIGSTR. 1
KOELN (GERMANY)
From joe at sfbooks.com Mon Nov 25 13:31:58 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 07:31:58 -0600
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit (was Re: The Coming of the Greeks) (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227027032.23782.18446209047682341146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello, INDOLOGY listmembers.
Dominik Wujastyk wrote...
>This is a summary of a discussion that has been going on in the
>sci.archaeology group recently, which Joe Bernstein thought -- rightly, I
>think -- would be of interest here in INDOLOGY.
I'm grateful for this comment, though I must admit to being disappointed at
finally having to conclude that my revisionist archaeologist heroes really
aren't on the net, or they would've replied by now...
That said. The discussion was, in fact, begun by the post to which I
replied, so my post which you've seen is more a summary of my current (and
not very well-researched) views than of the postings to date. The
discussion now continues under a number of threads on sci.archaeology and
(to a considerable extent) sci.lang. Although the original poster, Mr.
Shankar, has had a little more to say (including a set of references which
derives, I think, from David Frawley), the discussion has been dominated by
posts from, and replies to, one Steve Whittet, a simply indescribable
person long resident on sci.archaeology. It is perhaps simplest for me (as
an involved party) to say that Mr. Whittet is capable of combining
genuinely serious points (often confusingly conveyed) with breathtakingly
unorthodox and unsupported claims. I'm presently awaiting his explanation
as to why he believes Harappa and Mohenjo-daro were the seats of two
entirely different civilisations; but he has managed, more effectively than
quite a few books I've read, to undermine my definition of "urbanism".
Another post, which you've either just seen or are just about to, comments
on my happiness or lack thereof with this state of affairs...
>There are lots of disagreements over how *many* Indo-European speakers
>arrived in India, in particular (or South Asia more generally: in this
>post, I'm awake as to which I use, thanks), or about *how* these speakers
>arrived. Some months ago, Moin Ansari and I debated these issues at some
>length on this newsgroup, and I'm cc'ing him on this post partly to let
>him know the topic's back.
This time, quoting myself.
The debate which was mostly between Mr. Ansari and me can presumably be
found in Dejanews, for those with Web access; I can also forward by e-mail
some, but not all, of the relevant posts. Mr. Ansari is firmly committed,
for reasons at least partly political (hardly unique), to the full-blown
Aryan invasion theory.
The bulk of the discussion happened in threads whose titles included the
phrase THE 5000 YEAR PAKISTAN CIVILIZATION (not sure of exact spelling of
last two words; could be, e.g., PAKISTANI CIVILISATION; but you only need
THE 5000 YEAR to get it out of Dejanews. This was from something like
January to March.
I hope this is of some use.
Joe Bernstein
From joe at sfbooks.com Mon Nov 25 13:32:05 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 07:32:05 -0600
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227027036.23782.18194741421529211574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Vidyanath Rao recently wrote, quoting me:
>> [...] in particular (Meadow 1991 below). In the chapter which John
>> Lukacs worked on, there is an unequivocal assertion of significant
>> population changes in the centuries prior to 800 B.C.
>
>In `Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia', K. A. R. Kennedy writes (pp 49--54)
>``Evidence of demographic discontinuities is present in our study, but the
>first occurs between 6000 and 4500 B.C (a seperation between the Neolithic
>and Chalcolithic populations of Mehrgarh) and the second is >after 800 B.C.,
>the discontinuity being between the peoples of Harappa, Chalcolithic Mehrgarh
>and post-Harrapan Timargarha on the one hand and the late Bronze Age and
>early Iron Age inhabitants of Sarai Khola on the other. ''
I'm curious what the date is on the Kennedy reference. This is partly
because calibration of radiocarbon dates in 1980s publications re South
Asian archaeology could be wildly inconsistent (one of the best
archaeologists in India at that time, Makkhan Lal, once spent an entire
paper mercilessly showing up opponents in a controversy by demonstrating
inconsistencies in their use of radiocarbon). While Kennedy is unlikely to
be remotely as foolish as Lal's hapless opponents, there's a specific
problem with 800 BC in particular, which is that very close to that date,
the amount of C14 in the atmosphere started dropping. Ordinary radiocarbon
dates for the period 800 - 400 BC, or slightly better ones for the periods
800 - 550 or 550 - 400, have highly unpredictable uncalibrated values. I'd
need to know how the dates in Kennedy's paper were being calibrated to know
whether this effect (only demonstrated during the 1980s) was being properly
offset.
This is a very long way of saying that I agree wholeheartedly with your
fundamental point in this post, but in doing so, may well upset your
specific example. "After" and "before" 800 BC can mean very similar things
depending on which calibration curve is being used!
One of my biggest uncertainties about the results of Lukacs et al in the
Harappa site report is precisely that I don't know what curve *they* were
using, though I'm inclined to assume it was a current one.
>This is the problem I have with much of the discussions on this topic.
>Whom do I believe? Did the population change (actually change in the
>cranioetric data) occur before or after 800 BC? (now add the fact that
>change in cranioetric data can occur due to causes other than population
>change).
>
>When I take the trouble to check some of the ``data'' presented, I come
>across troubling inconsistencies which the debaters want to ignore
>and fail to answer the questions. (which is why I am not participating
>in sci.archaeology debate. Usenet is awful in this regard.)
I'm going to have to come back to this matter of Usenet, because I'm
becoming convinced it's *precisely* the best place for debate on this
issue. But I feel compelled to note, however ironically, that I've got
record of your participating fairly extensively (and intelligently) in just
that debate. I'm glad you changed your mind.
Joe Bernstein
From joe at sfbooks.com Mon Nov 25 13:44:12 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 07:44:12 -0600
Subject: a plea for Usenet, longish (was Re: Diffusion of Sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227027034.23782.5038143264903245402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Laurie Patton recently wrote:
>The RISA-L web site (and digests of discussion, as well as a small biblio)
>can be found at: http://www.acusd.edu/~lnelson/risa
>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Martin Gansten wrote:
>
>> For those interested in the 'Aryan migration' topic, there was quite a
>> lively debate on RISA-L recently; others may know better than I how to get
>> hold of the postings. If nothing else, I believe it showed that the
>>statement:
>>
>> >Several lines of evidence converge on this, and there doesn't seem to be a
>> >lot of room left for disagreement.
>>
>> -- may need to be revised.
Having read the RISA-L debate, I'm inclined to say you're right, Mr. Gansten.
I can also see why so little debate on INDOLOGY followed...that one was
quite overpowering.
That said. I must confess to very mixed feelings about this. On the one
hand, at one fell swoop my bibliography on quite a few areas has been
comprehensively updated, and this is wonderful. While it's less wonderful
to see some of the reasons for this, I am nevertheless grateful that *some*
of the sense of an opening, of questioning of received views, that I found
ten years ago, still exists in studies of ancient South Asia. And it's
great to see a web site that covers so much of the state of the field,
given that David Frawley's paper had been altogether too much of what was
out there.
On the other hand... Well, much of the rest of this post is a long
complaint about the uses of net resources. You're warned. Ms. Patton,
first, would you consider forwarding at least the bibliographic part of my
prior post to RISA-L for consideration for their on-line bibliography on
the subject? There isn't that much overlap. I'd have to admit it would be
a tad embarrassing for parts of my text to appear juxtaposed with some of
the posts in that archive though!
Now, the complaint.
RISA-L appears to have started in October 1995. I returned to the nets,
after some years away, in November 1995. It's not surprising that I didn't
find out about that list then.
Were I a real scholar of South Asian civilisation, no doubt I would have
found out by now. As it is, I hesitated for a long time to join even
INDOLOGY, knowing myself a rank amateur, and finally did so for no fewer
than three projects, of which this discussion is only one. Instead, I went
to Usenet's sci.archaeology, posted some questions about interest in the
topic, and wound up debating an unreconstructed fire-breathing Aryan
invasion proponent for about a month. It was certainly worthwhile, and I
got a bunch of references out of it. But I waited in vain to be upstaged
by, say, Mark Kenoyer coming on and blandly informing me (as he routinely
did when we discussed my research ten years ago) that everything I was
saying was wrongheaded or misleading, and why. That would have been far
more worthwhile for the insights and references it would have led to.
Especially if he'd been met by George Erdosy, or some such, blasting him in
turn.
In any event, how was anyone interested in finding out about this
controversy supposed to know that it would show up in, of all things, a
mailing list about South Asian *religions*?
And why has Usenet, for at least the past year, had only me - a dilettante,
to cite one word from the RISA-L debate, and one without even a
baccalaureate degree - often available (with Moin Ansari sometimes helping)
to discuss South Asian archaeology in general on the newsgroup where this
topic is most obviously relevant?
It's not just because Usenet is nothing but kooks. Sorry. I've become, in
the year I've been there, fairly respected in the process by which
newsgroups are created; and my introduction to that process was through the
creation of sci.archaeology.moderated, which was specifically meant to
foster kook-free discussion. Well, very little "discussion" happens on
s.a.m; it's turned into an announcement newsgroup (though pretty
consistently kook-free, indeed). But the entire RISA-L discussion could
have happened there, by that newsgroup's rules, and it would have become a
valuable source of both information on South Asia, and perspectives on
politics in archaeological and historical research, for anyone who cared to
read.
Moreover, though it looks like the topic's now closed on that list
(presumably because everyone got updates at Madison from the pros) - the
handling of archaeology in the RISA-L discussion was often vague in a way
even I could have helped sharpen. Just one quick example: One reason
Frawley is a quack is that he relies unhesitatingly on the anomalous, if
even properly sited, radiocarbon date of 1000 BC for the wall of Kausambi.
There is simply no good reason to do this, as B. B. Lal among others has
exhaustively demonstrated. Obviously Mr. Kenoyer's, or Mr. Shaffer's, or
either Mr. Lal's presence, would have been a good deal more helpful.
That vagueness has another consequence, on another route for net usage. I
now know of three significant Web sites relevant to South Asian
archaeology: David Frawley's paper; the INDOLOGY site; and the RISA-L
archive on this topic. The latter is by far the best and fullest (no
offense intended, folks!), but I didn't find it when I went looking for
info on these areas just a couple of weeks ago on the Web. Rest assured
that when I get my own ancient history pages set up, there'll be a
prominent link to that archive. But I wish there had been the opportunity
for broader contributions to it before it was sealed.
Thanks much, Mr. Gansten and Ms. Patton, for pointing me (us) to that
archive. It answers, at last, a fundamental question I haven't had an
answer to for years, about the state of the debate that I spent a year
obsessively struggling to master.
I will certainly announce its existence, via sci.archaeology.moderated as
well as sci.archaeology.
I just think it could have managed to be better, had it, or some of it,
been created there as well.
Joe Bernstein
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Mon Nov 25 13:55:31 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 08:55:31 -0500
Subject: Skt. Job at Harvard (II)
Message-ID: <161227027040.23782.10719044025600000019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The administration has asked me to add the following lines to the
announcement sent earlier to INDOLOGY. I reprint the earlier announcement
below.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please send a letter of interest highlighting your relevant experience, a
C.V., including a list of your publications, and at least two letters of
recommendation to P. Oktor Skjaervo at Sanskrit and Indian Studies, 53
Church Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:30
===========================================================================
ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, SANSKRIT AND INDIAN STUDIES
Assistant Professor for three-year employment (with possibility of re-
appointment). Starting with the 1997/98 academic year.
The main task of the successful candidate will be to teach undergraduate
and graduate courses in Classical Sanskrit language and literature. The
department welcomes scholars with expertise in philosophy, grammar,
history, etc. and in other South Asian languages and regional
specializations.
Teaching experience will play a major role in the decision. The candidate
must have completed all formal work toward the Ph.D.
Harvard University is an equal opportunity and affirmative action
employer: women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Application
deadline is January 8, 1997.
For more information on the position and for benefit policies, contact P.
Oktor Skjaervo, at (617) 496 5756, Department of Sanskrit and Indian
Studies, Harvard University, 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA.
fax 617- 496 8571.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<< Privately, I add the following note: "3 years with poss. of
re-appointment" NORMALLY means possibility to teach 3 + max. 5 years as
Ass./Assoc. Prof. -- Not an *automatic* "tenure track" position. Ask the
admin. for details! -- MW >>
From athr at loc.gov Mon Nov 25 14:48:30 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:48:30 -0500
Subject: Query: Brahmins and Vedic Schools.
Message-ID: <161227027038.23782.66766823846920433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
You might try the various "Castes and Tribes" books put out by the
government of British India and some of the princely states.
Allen W. Thrasher
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4814
tel. (202) 707-5600
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov
On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Anshuman Pandey wrote:
>
> I am wondering whether there exists some sort of text or source which
> provides details as to which vedic school a certain clan within a
> certain brahmanical community (specifically: Kanaujiyas, Sarayuparis)
> belonged.
>
> In regards to the Kanaujiyas and the Sarayuparis, there exist for these
> communities documents called 'vanshavalis', but I simply cannot get ahold
> of these documents. Surprisingly, the copy of the 'vanshavali' of the
> Kanaujiyas is missing from the libraries here. It seems that even in Uttar
> Pradesh - stronghold of these two groups - such documents are a rare find.
>
> I immensely appreciate any leads or references to sources where I could
> examine this issue in a greater light and in a more detailed manner.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Anshuman Pandey
>
>
>
>
From athr at loc.gov Mon Nov 25 15:35:35 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 10:35:35 -0500
Subject: Jains in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227027043.23782.1017885667912398187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Members of Indology and Vyakaran may find this forwarded message
interesting, assuming onomastics is part of linguistics.
Allen W. Thrasher
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4814
tel. (202) 707-5600
fax (202) 707-1724
email: athr at loc.gov
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:12:43 -0500
From: JainBhavan at aol.com
To: jain-list at gw.ddb.com
Subject: Jains in America
Resent-Date: 22 Nov 1996 01:13:55 -0000
Resent-From: jain-list at gw.ddb.com
Resent-cc: recipient.list.not.shown:;
Jai Jinendra,
As you can see from the following, "Jain" is the twelfth most common last
name in USA. Needless to say that "Shah" is the most common last name even
amongst the Jains.
*****************************************************************************
> The 1990 census recorded 815,447 Indians in the United States. The
> mid-1995 census bureau estimate shows a 25 percent growth in the
> Asian population. Recent immigration trends indicate that the Indian
> population has grown 33 percent since 1990 to more than 1,080,000.
>
> Top 100 Indian Surnames in US: Probable "Clone" spellings in
>parenthesis.
>
> Name Percent Rank
>
> Patel 12.16 1
> Singh 7.05 2
> Shah 4.40 3
> Desai 1.53 4
> Sharma 1.47 5
> Kumar 1.44 6
> Mehta 1.28 7
> Gupta 1.25 8
> Rao 0.89 9
> Reddy 0.81 10
> Parikh(5) 0.63 11
> Jain 0.60 12
> Prasad 0.58 13
> Amin 0.46 14
> Joshi 0.45 15
> Das 0.44 16
> Gandhi 0.42 17
> Bhatia 0.39 18
> Bhatt(2) 0.39 19
> Varghese 0.36 20
> Chaudhry(3) 0.35 21
> Sandhu 0.34 22
> Agarwal(1) 0.33 23
> Iqbal 0.32 24
> Srinivasan 0.31 25
> Arora 0.31 26
> Gill 0.31 27
> Sinha 0.29 28
> Chandra 0.29 29
> Malhotra 0.29 30
> Parekh(5) 0.29 31
> Kaur 0.28 32
> Trivedi 0.27 33
> Ghosh 0.27 34
> Qureshi 0.27 35
> Verma(6) 0.27 36
> Dhillon 0.26 37
> Dave 0.25 38
> Mathur 0.25 39
> Doshi 0.24 40
> Sidhu 0.24 41
> Lal 0.23 42
> Sethi 0.23 43
> Pandya 0.23 44
> Khanna 0.23 45
> Bhakta 0.23 46
> Subramanian 0.22 47
> Kapoor 0.22 48
> Agrawal(1) 0.21 49
> Murthy 0.21 50
> Anand 0.21 51
> Iyer 0.21 52
> Mistry 0.21 53
> Vyas 0.21 54
> Krishnan 0.21 55
> Grewal 0.21 56
> Nair 0.21 57
> Menon 0.20 58
> Naik 0.20 59
> Kulkarni 0.20 60
> Banerjee 0.20 61
> Chawla 0.20 62
> Modi 0.20 63
> Srivastava 0.19 64
> Shukla 0.19 65
> Sen 0.19 66
> Mukherjee 0.19 67
> Dalal 0.19 68
> Aggarwal(1) 0.18 69
> Puri 0.17 70
> Garg 0.17 71
> Soni 0.17 72
> Parmar 0.17 73
> Mohan 0.17 74
> Datta 0.17 75
> Prakash 0.16 76
> Ahuja 0.16 77
> Mishra(4) 0.16 78
> Raman 0.16 79
> Kapadia 0.16 80
> Chowdhury(3) 0.16 81
> Varma(6) 0.15 82
> Goel 0.15 83
> Kurian 0.15 84
> Kothari 0.15 85
> Basu 0.15 86
> Rana 0.15 87
> Bhat(2) 0.15 88
> Sood 0.15 89
> Pillai 0.15 90
> Misra(4) 0.15 91
> Chopra 0.15 92
> Mathai 0.14 93
> Mitra 0.14 94
> Patil 0.14 95
> Ramachandran 0.14 96
> Ansari 0.14 97
> Thakkar 0.14 98
> Mehra 0.14 99
> Kohli 0.14 100
======================================================================
Jain Center of Southern California
8072 Commonwealth Avenue, Buena Park CA 90621
714-670-0890 Office * 714-739-9161 Pay Phone
From jakub at unipune.ernet.in Mon Nov 25 19:32:01 1996
From: jakub at unipune.ernet.in (Jakub Cejka)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 14:32:01 -0500
Subject: Hindi [was Re: Cash Cows..]
Message-ID: <161227027028.23782.13956126135662973750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> Robert Zyndenbos wrote:
> >What is still more ironic is that, in spite of the bad movies and of the
> >official promoting of Hindi by New Delhi (e.g. through the mass media), the
> >percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
> >conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed. (Personally, I have had more
> >useful conversations in Sanskrit.)
Outside the so called "Hindi Belt" I've been in TN, Kerala, Orissa, W.B.,
Maharashtra. I must second the above. Or rather: those with whom you can
have an intelligent conversation in Hindi do usually know English as well.
Among those who do not know English a great majority does not Hindi either
(or mix it with their tongue, when they speak to an outsider). In
Tamilnadu and Kerala it's hard to find one knowing any Hindi at all and it
is always English what the people know beside their language, if anything.
> >I wonder whether the Hindi motivation in the western democracies isn't,
> >ultimately, largely ideological too.
I think it is. As is the Govt's pushing for it to be used as National
Language.
Richard Barz wrote:
>
> It's fashionable in some circles, for ideological and other reasons, to
> indulge in Hindi-bashing. But, sorry, it just isn't true that "the
> >percentage of the Indian population with whom one can have an intelligent
> >conversation in Hindi is very limited indeed". In fact, if one ignores
> >the artificial divisions between Hindi, filmi Hindi, Hindustani and Urdu
It is not so artificial I think.
I know little Hindi, but the Sanskritized Hindi, which I find in secondary
literature, TV etc I perceive as quite different from the Hindi used by
it's native speakers and the Hindi used by not-much-educated speakers of
other languages as a lingua franca with. The Sanskritized Hindi, which is
the one printed in Govt. paperwork, is understood only by more
sofisticated people.
Example of a family (which I know very well):
Bengali speakers living in Calcutta (where more Urdu or Hindi is heard in
the very centre of city, than Bengali). Father being a WB govt officer,
understands Hindi TV news fully,
his wife a housewife knows no Hindi at all, his daughter (now doing MSc),
fluent in English understands the news-service partly, but cannot speak
much Hindi.
I came across many other examples of other Bengalis, university scholars,
fluent in English, who understand the Hindi news quite imperfectly and
can't speak. In W.B. I almost never found Bengali speaker knowing Hindi
sufficiently while not knowing English
The reason is obvious: Whenever other language than Bengali is used in
school, local office-work etc, it is English in W.B. not Hindi. (Exception
is Darjeeling area, where Nepalis prefer Hindi to Bengali)
In Pune, where I am staying, Hindi is known more than in rural W.B.
ofcourse, but what the shopkeepers, street vendors etc speak with
non-Marathis is Hindi almost as broken as mine :-)
(typical is use of tum forms like "bolo" instead of aap forms like "bolie"
where it would be never used by the Hindi-wallas as far as I have noticed)
To repeat myself, those who learn "suddh Hindi" find it very difficult to
communicate with the majority of people in India, *including* the native
speakers from the HIndi belt, except the more sophisticated ones, but
those usually know English. The only use of this language is to read the
secondary literature, I think.
Sorry for entering into this discussion unrelated to Sanskrit...
Btw, do we have any group to discuss modern Indian languages to avoid it
on this "classical" list?
Jakub Cejka
______________________________________________________________________________
Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Pune
Ganeshkhind, Pune, India 411 007
e-mail: jakub at unipune.ernet.in
(valid till June 97 approx.)
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Nov 25 20:34:54 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 15:34:54 -0500
Subject: Diffusion of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227027046.23782.7999570676679165025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Joe Bernstein wrote:
> Vidhyanath Rao wrote, quoting me
> >> [...] in particular (Meadow 1991 below). In the chapter which John
> >> Lukacs worked on, there is an unequivocal assertion of significant
> >> population changes in the centuries prior to 800 B.C.
> >
> >In `Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia', K. A. R. Kennedy writes (pp 49--54)
> >``Evidence of demographic discontinuities is present in our study, but the
> >first occurs between 6000 and 4500 B.C (a seperation between the Neolithic
> >and Chalcolithic populations of Mehrgarh) and the second is >after 800 B.C.,
> >the discontinuity being between the peoples of Harappa, Chalcolithic Mehrgarh
> >and post-Harrapan Timargarha on the one hand and the late Bronze Age and
> >early Iron Age inhabitants of Sarai Khola on the other. ''
>
> I'm curious what the date is on the Kennedy reference. This is partly
> because calibration of radiocarbon dates in 1980s publications re South
> Asian archaeology could be wildly inconsistent (one of the best
> archaeologists in India at that time, Makkhan Lal, once spent an entire
> paper mercilessly showing up opponents in a controversy by demonstrating
> inconsistencies in their use of radiocarbon). While Kennedy is unlikely to
> be remotely as foolish as Lal's hapless opponents, there's a specific
> problem with 800 BC in particular, which is that very close to that date,
> the amount of C14 in the atmosphere started dropping. Ordinary radiocarbon
> dates for the period 800 - 400 BC, or slightly better ones for the periods
> 800 - 550 or 550 - 400, have highly unpredictable uncalibrated values. I'd
> need to know how the dates in Kennedy's paper were being calibrated to know
> whether this effect (only demonstrated during the 1980s) was being properly
> offset.
>
Kennedy's paper was presented in a conference held in 1991, but the
proceedings appeared only in late 1995 (the date on the preface is
September 1995). I think that the contributors revised their papers,
but I might be wrong.
The quotation from Kennedy's paper is from the paragraphs where he
summarizes the resultspresented by Hemphill, Lukacs and Kennedy,
``Biological adaptations and affinities of the Bronze Age Harappans'',
in Harappa Excavations 1986--1990, edited by R. Meadow. I presume
that this is the very same reference that Joe was referring to.
I did not try very hard get the Hemhill, Lukacs and Kennedy paper.
I just assume that Kennedy's summary of a paper of which he is
coauthor would be accurate.
Any way, the quote specifically states from where the `discontinuous'
samples came. Apparently, the distinction is between early 2nd millenium
skeleta and samples from populations dated to after 800 BCE (late
Bronze age and early Iron age of Sarai Khola). Given the difference
in time, this may not mean much.
> I'm going to have to come back to this matter of Usenet, because I'm
> becoming convinced it's *precisely* the best place for debate on this
> issue. But I feel compelled to note, however ironically, that I've got
> record of your participating fairly extensively (and intelligently) in just
> that debate. I'm glad you changed your mind.
No No :-). I got in there because I got riled by the articles in sci.lang
(I don't read sci.archaeology) that said `higher word count implies more
sophisticated language'. I have trouble keeping my mouth shut all the
time and get involved in the larger debate. But, I am getting better at
self control. Over the week-end, I aborted four or five follow-ups I
started.
From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Nov 25 20:49:06 1996
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 15:49:06 -0500
Subject: Evolution of chariots (was Re: Diffusion of Sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227027048.23782.15117494172677114755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> The RISA-L web site (and digests of discussion, as well as a small biblio)
> can be found at: http://www.acusd.edu/~lnelson/risa
I browsed through this and I came acrossa statement to the effect that
chariots in Central Asia have been dated to near 2000 BCE, with the
information attributed to some participants at the `Aryan and Non-aryan'
conference. Can anybody with first hand access to the dating tell me
about the tightness of dating, and the method of dating used?
It may be worthwhile to mention the reason for this query. While Indologists
seem to believe that Indo-Iranians invented the chariots and with this
`secret weapon' went tearing through the Near East and India,
this was disputed by Littauer and Crouwell ``Wheeled transport and
ridden animals in Ancient Near East''. Stuart Piggot argued that the
Central Asian chariotary is slightly older, but chariot technology
quickly spread through the near East by trade contacts (rather than by
Idno-Iranians conquering everything in their way with their new
super-duper chariots). If Central Asian chariot remains do date to
2000 BCE, the argument changes quite a bit.
Of course, dating the evolution of chariots is important for the Aryan
entry to India also. If chariots were not around before 1800 BCE
(the date that was accepted for Central Asian and Near Eastern evidence),
chariot riders, skillful enough to cross the mountains of Afghanistan
in vehicles usually assumed to effective only on dry level ground,
could not get into India in 2000 BCE.
From thillaud at unice.fr Mon Nov 25 15:19:01 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 16:19:01 +0100
Subject: Q: Proto-Siva
Message-ID: <161227027042.23782.14006634762559818070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I have'nt the references at hand but I remember different versions
of the same story (Yayati and/or Zizupala) where the involved God is, in
the first version Varuna, in the second Shiva under the form of Varuna and
in the third Shiva; clearly the mechanism of a replacement.
I can search more precisely if you are interested.
a votre service,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From avillarr at is.dal.ca Mon Nov 25 20:19:26 1996
From: avillarr at is.dal.ca (avillarr at is.dal.ca)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 17:19:26 -0300
Subject: Jains in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227027050.23782.1043870403144566413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> > Chowdhury(3) 0.16 81
Hi,
Does anyone knows this name; what will be the Indian spelling
(sanskrit?); the ethymology; caste; or the region where it come from.
Thanks,
A.V.
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon Nov 25 17:51:57 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 17:51:57 +0000
Subject: a plea for Usenet, longish (was Re: Diffusion of Sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227027045.23782.7632785108296815905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
Joe Bernstein wrote:
>Moreover, though it looks like the topic's now closed on that list
>(presumably because everyone got updates at Madison from the pros) - the
When and by whom are the conference proceedings to be published, please?
Presumably you are talking about this one:
Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar
Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia:
Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology
Thanks beforehand for the info.
Bye,
Girish Beeharry
From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 26 02:08:05 1996
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:08:05 -0800
Subject: gold-digging ants
Message-ID: <161227027056.23782.7272724195811492934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 01:20 AM 11/26/96 GMT, Dadhav Deshpande wrote:
>Dear Indology Members,
> I would like to draw your attention to a fascinating article by
>Marlise Simons in today's New York Times (Nov 25, 1996, page A7). It is
>titled:
> "Himalayas offer clue to legend of gold-digging ants"
>
> All the best,
> Madhav Deshpande
Very interesting. I read the article in the San Francisco Chronicle, and I
have a question.
The suggestion of the article is that the "ants" were really marmots, and
Michel Peissel "says that his favored explanation is that confusion set in
because in Persian the word for marmot is equivalent to mountain ant."
Could anyone tell us what this Persian word is, and its etymology? Is there
a Sanskrit word for marmot?
Sincerely,
Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley
From csr at wipinfo.soft.net Mon Nov 25 23:18:22 1996
From: csr at wipinfo.soft.net (Raghavendra C.S)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:18:22 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit Grammar : Passive Causative
Message-ID: <161227027030.23782.2021243342534792491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
namaste,
Please refer to Siddhaantakaumudii, karmakartruprakaraNam,
vibhaashhaa chiNNamuloH (Sec. 7-1-69) -
gaUNe karmaNi duhyaadeH pradhAne nIhrukrushhvahaam.h ||
buddhibhakshaarthayoH shabdakarmakANaaM nijecchayaa ||
prayojyakarmaNyanyeshaaM NyantaanaaM laadayo mataaH ||
For duh.h series (12 roots) - gaUNa (secondary object) will be used
in passive voice.
nii, hR^i, kR^ishh.h, vah.h - pradhAna (important object) will be used
in passive voice.
In case of Nic.h pratyaya - nijecchaya - choice is yours
This is very crude meaning from my side. This shloka was given to me by a
Sanskrit scholar at Aksharam, Samskrita Bharathi Centre. I was told that
a complete analysis of this shloka will answer your question !
Hope it helps.
bhavadiiyah,
- rAghavendraH
>Dear colleagues,
>The question pertains to the formation of passive from causatives
>of verbs which take two objects. To make clear what I have in mind,
>let me set down some examples:
>(1.0) Devadatta.h maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam p.rcchati.
>(1.1) Devadatta is asking the boy the way.
>
>Passive is formed only with respect to maa.navaka (the boy), and
>not with respect to panthaanam (the path).
>
>(2.0) maa.navaka.h Devadattena panthaanam p.rcchyate.
>(2.1) The boy is being asked the way by Devadatta.
>
>(3.0) *panthaa.h Devadattena maa.navakam (maa.navake) p.rcchyate.
>(3.1) *The way is being asked the boy by Devadatta.
>
>Now, consider the causative form of the sentence in (1.0).
>
>(4.0) Hari.h Devadattena maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam pracchayati.
>(4.1) Hari has Devadatta ask the boy the way.
>
>The question is: what are the passive options of the sentence in (4.0)?
>On the general principle that the agent of the basic verb in active
>causative constructions becomes the subject of the passive causative
>construction, I conclude tha the first sentence below is correct.
>
>(5.0) Devadatta.h Hari.naa maa.navakam (maa.navake) panthaanam pracchyate.
>(5.1) Devadatta is made by Hari to ask the boy the way.
>The question is: is it the only version which is correct.
>Speijer reports that some passive causatives have as their subjects
>objects of the non-causative version of the verb.
>(6.0) vi.sa-kanyayaa Raak.sasena dhaatita.h tapasvii Parvate'svara.h.
> Rak\d{s}asa had a poison girl kill poor Parvate\'svara.
> (Mudr. 1: cited in Speijer p. 38)
>(Presumably, this sentence is ambiguous.) Do these possibilities
>extend to verbs with double objects. That is, is the following
>acceptable?
>(7.0) maa.navaka.h Devadattena Hari.naa panthaanam pracchyate.
>Any help with this question will be greatly appreciated?
>Thanks in advance.\,
>Brendan S. Gillon
>Dept. of Linguistics
>McGill University
From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 25 23:36:28 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:36:28 -0500
Subject: a plea for Usenet, longish (was Re: Diffusion of Sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227027053.23782.10079478509067616937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Members,
The proceedings of the Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar are
planned to be published in the 1998 issue of the Swiss journal Etudes
Asiatiques / Asiatische Studien. The editors of this volume are Madhav M.
Deshpande and Johannes Bronkhorst, who were also the conveners of the
seminar. The volume may be co-published in book-form by the Center for
south and southeast Asian Studies of the University of Michigan, Ann
Arbor. I hope this answers the question fully.
Madhav Deshpande
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Joe Bernstein wrote:
>
> >Moreover, though it looks like the topic's now closed on that list
> >(presumably because everyone got updates at Madison from the pros) - the
>
> When and by whom are the conference proceedings to be published, please?
> Presumably you are talking about this one:
>
> Michigan-Lausanne International Seminar
>
> Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia:
> Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology
>
> Thanks beforehand for the info.
>
> Bye,
>
> Girish Beeharry
>
>
From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 26 01:07:38 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 20:07:38 -0500
Subject: gold-digging ants
Message-ID: <161227027055.23782.18082225122007206590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indology Members,
I would like to draw your attention to a fascinating article by
Marlise Simons in today's New York Times (Nov 25, 1996, page A7). It is
titled:
"Himalayas offer clue to legend of gold-digging ants"
All the best,
Madhav Deshpande
From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 26 05:45:41 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 21:45:41 -0800
Subject: H-ASIA: The Gold Digging Ants of Herodotus (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227027058.23782.2997538676210477559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Colleagues:
At the suggestion of another list member, I reproduce below the H-ASIA
post from Nov. 25 regarding the ants (gold-digging) file.
The article as published in the New York Times is not quoted verbatim
owing to copy right considerations. However since the basic argument
has been out since 1984, perhaps some of you may wish to consult the
published work and see what you make of it. Keep an eye out for the other
wonders of the East.
Frank Conlon
H-ASIA
November 25, 1996
New suggestions regarding the "gold digging ants" reported by Herodotus
*************************************************************************
From: Frank Conlon
This morning's _New York Times_ contains an article by Marlise Simons:
"Himalayas Offer Clue to Legend of Gold-Digging 'Ants'" which reports on
recent work by a French scholar, Michel Peissel in the Northern
Territories of Pakistan.
As many students of Indian history are aware, Herodotus, the 5th Century
B.C.E. writer included in his account of the wonders of India, reports of
"gold digging ants" who dug gold from the ground only to have it pilfered
by their human neighbors. In modern times, this story (and others) have
been employed to emphasize the long standing tradition of a credulous
Western acceptance of the "wonders of India." What could be more
far-fetched than "gold-mining ants?"
Michel Peissel and Sebastian Guiness, a British photographer, have visited
the Dansar Plateau on the Indus river, just northwest of the
India-Pakistan line of control. Peissel reports that the "ants" of
Herodotus' account which were described as large and furry, bigger than a
fox yet not so large as a dog, were in fact large marmots, who still
burrow in the Dansar plateau's gold-bearing earth and throw up mounds of
rubble which do in fact contain gold dust in modest amounts.
Earlier scholars had made the suggestion that the furry ants were in fact
marmots, but Peissel and Guiness appear to be the first scholars to locate
a site where the process of human - marmot interaction occurs.
The Dansar Plateau is an isolated region adjacent to the Indus river where
that stream has cut a deep ravine. On both sides of the river, a tribal
group, the Minaro, who speak a Tibetan language, live in small
settlements. Peisell says that he visited the area fourteen years ago, and
heard accounts of people collecting earth left by marmots, in order to
sift the soil for gold. A landslide had exposed a darker gold-bearing
soil that was the same as that being brought up to the surface by the
marmot excavations.
The article goes on to say that the identification of the furry animals as
ants had been a puzzle, but that Peissel stated that the confusion arose
from the Persian world used for marmot which was equivalent to "mountain
ant," noting that Himalayan marmots are quite large, with sharp claws and
teeth with which they would defend their burrows against predators,
including gold-seeking humans.
Stephanie West, a scholar of Herodotus at Oxford, is quoted in the article
as saying that while Herodotus was not known to speak Persian, the Persian
army did invade Halicarnassus, the city where he lived from circa 480 BCE.
It is not entirely clear why this article appears now, other than Michel
Peissel reporting fresh discoveries. Peissel has written a number of
books on the Tibetan Himalaya (see below) and published the propositions
contained in the _New York Times_ article in a book published some twelve
years ago.
Also, while the "gold-digging ants" may get displaced from our lectures on
the early West's interest in "fabulous India," I don't think Michel
Peissel has yet solved the matter of the "dog-headed people" and other
remarkable stories. (On the latter, Wilhelm Halbfass, _India and Europe:
An Essay in Understanding_ (Albany: SUNY Press, 1988) p.11, notes that
some of the amazing creatures reported in the Classical accounts of India
have clearly identifiable counterparts in Indian mythology and literature,
citing some recent work of K. Kartunnen.)
Frank Conlon
University of Washington
conlon at u.washington.edu
----------------------------
Peissel, Michel, _L'Or des fourmis: la decouverte de l'Eldorado grec au
Tibet_ (Paris: L. Laffont, 1984) 226 pp.
ISBN: 222100986X.
Peissel, Michel, _The ants' gold: the discovery of the Greek El Dorado
in the Himalayas (London: Harvill Press, 1984) 180 p.
ISBN: 0002725142 :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Peissel titles relating to the Himalayan region include:
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: Lords and lamas: a solitary expedition across the secret
Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan.
Pub. Info.: London, Heinemann, 1970.
ISBN: 0434582301.
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: Cavaliers of Kham: the secret war in Tibet.
Pub. Info.: London, Heinemann, 1972.
ISBN: 043458231X.
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: Mustang: a lost Tibetan kingdom
Pub. Info.: Delhi: Book Faith India, 1992 1967
Notes: Originally published: Mustang, the forbidden kingdom. New
York : Dutton, 1967.
ISBN: 8173030022
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: La route de l'Ambre : de la Baltique a la mer Noire dans
le sillage des Vikings russes
Pub. Info.: Paris: R. Laffont, 1992
ISBN: 2221068866 (pbk.)
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: Zanskar : the hidden kingdom
Pub. Info.: London : Collins and Harvill Press, 1979
ISBN: 0002629984
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: Himalaya, continent secret
Pub. Info.: [Paris] : Flammarion, 1977
ISBN: 2082004368 :
Author: Peissel, Michel
Title: The great Himalayan passage : across the Himalayas by
hovercraft
Pub. Info.: London : Collins, 1974
ISBN: 0002118416 :
F.F.C.
===========================================================================
From deepak at ksu.edu Tue Nov 26 14:24:45 1996
From: deepak at ksu.edu (Deepak Gupta)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 08:24:45 -0600
Subject: Gold digging Ants
Message-ID: <161227027061.23782.16740222637702602550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Refer to the first news item.
deepak
D E E P A K G U P T A
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
email: deepak at unix.ksu.edu Internet: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak
Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS, Phone: 913-532-0659 / 3777
India News Network Digest Tue, 26 Nov 96 Volume 2 : Issue 1174
Today's News Topics:
(1) 'Gold-Digging Ants' mystery seems solved, after bugging
scholars for centuries
(2) Ibrahim rejects dissidents` demand for JDLP meet
(3) Joshi offers to break impasse on border row
(4) No let up on foreign TV or airlines: Ibrahim
(5) Women clinch both posts for the first time; Padmavathi
is Bangalore Mayor
(6) Site allotment to ex-MLAs and MPs challenged
(7) Medical college admissions begin
(8) Patel assures speedy Cabinet decision on KSRTC
___________________________________________________________________________
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:51:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Joydeep Mitra
Subject: 'Gold-Digging Ants' in the Himalayas
#1 'Gold-Digging Ants' mystery seems solved, after bugging
scholars for centuries
By MARLISE SIMONS: New York Times: Nov 25,'96:
PARIS -- The fabulous tale of the giant "ants" that dug up gold in a far-off
El Dorado and enriched the Persian Empire, has circulated for some 2,500
years. Historians have variously recorded it as fact, mocked it as
extravagant, or just passed it along the ancient grapevine.
It was popular in Athens and Rome, and Alexander the Great, on his way to
India, is said to have known about the tale. Scholars and fortune hunters have
tried to explain the enigma for centuries.
Now a team of explorers says it has solved the puzzle. The explorers believe
they have pinpointed the land of the legendary gold-digging ants and the
people who profited in one of the most inaccessible regions of the
Himalayas along the upper Indus River.
They say the outsize furry "ants," first described by Herodotus in the fifth
century B.C., are in fact big marmots. These creatures -- Herodotus calls
them "bigger than a fox, though not so big as a dog" -- are still throwing up
gold-bearing soil from deep underground as they dig their burrows. Most
important, the explorers say they have found indigenous people on the
same high plateau who say that for generations they have collected gold dust
from the marmots' work.
"I think this confirms the legend that has fascinated so many people," said
Michel Peissel, a French ethnologist, who has just returned here from a
monthlong journey in the western Himalayas of northern Pakistan. "I think it
vindicates Herodotus, who has often been called a liar."
Other explorers have suggested that the furry "ants" of antiquity were
marmots, but until now there were no known reports of the site where indigenous
people actually collected and sifted sand to get the marmots' gold.
That place, Peissel said, is the Dansar plain, a high plateau overlooking
the Indus River near the tense cease-fire line between India and Pakistan.
It is an isolated region where the Indus comes roaring through deep gorges on
its way south. On both sides of the river, Peissel said, are small settlements
of Minaro tribal people, an ancient remnant who have remained so isolated
in the high valleys that they still preserve some stone-age customs.
Up in those barren highlands, Peissel said, he first went to study the
Minaro 14 years ago on the Indian side of the border, traveling in
disguise because the military zone was off-limits to outsiders.
"That's where I first heard the startling news that the villagers used to
collect the earth from the marmot burrows because it contained much gold
dust," said Peissel, who speaks Tibetan, like the Minaro.
But the Dansar plain, where the old people used to get the gold dust, the
locals said, was five miles away on the other side of the Indus, now the
Pakistani side. It took 14 years for Peissel and a British photographer,
Sebastian Guinness, to get permits to visit the Minaro on the Pakistani side,
also a strategic zone.
In Pakistan, he said, the Minaro villagers told the same stories. "We went
out to the Dansar plain, overlooking the Indus, at an altitude of some 10,000
feet," he said. "It was astonishing. There were the marmots and the burrows
and the piles of sand they threw up." Moreover, he said, a landslide had
exposed the darker, gold-bearing soil that was three feet below the surface.
That was the same soil the marmots brought up from under the sand.
Specialists have long argued about why Herodotus and other ancient writers
described the furry gold-digging creatures as ants. Herodotus wrote in his
"Histories" (Book Three, 102-105) that some were even kept at the palace
of the Persian king, who ruled the region at the time.
Peissel, author of a book called "The Ants' Gold," says that his favored
explanation is that confusion set in because in Persian the word for marmot is
equivalent to "mountain ant."
Marmots, a type of rodent, are unusually large in the Himalayas, with bushy
fur and a large fox-like tail, he said. They have razor-sharp teeth and claws.
"They can be ferocious if one tampers with their burrows, which is just
what the gold-seekers did," he said.
Stephanie West, a Herodotus scholar at Oxford University in Britain, said
that Herodotus was not known to speak Persian, although the Persians
invaded Halicarnassus, the Greek city where he lived from around 480 B.C.
"He traveled to Egypt but not to India," Ms. West said. "He could have got
it wrong. His information came from talking to travelers and reading what
there was to be read."
Ms. West disagreed with the view of some scholars that Herodotus, who wrote
the first major prose work of that time, fabricated tall stories or set
out to deceive readers.
"He probably took the liberties a historical novelist takes, rather than
writing strictly as a historian," she said.
Many references to the story of the gold-digging ants can be found in
ancient literature, she said.
"It's such a marvelous notion, but once you think of them as marmots, it's
less bizarre," she said. She added that she was familiar with Peissel's
research, saying: "I think he has made a substantial contribution to
understanding that episode."
The marmots digging on the Dansar plain may or may not settle the issue.
Peissel said he would prefer to test his findings with further studies.
"Ideally, we should make a full archeological and geological survey in the
area," he said. "But it's right in the line of fire of both sides. There was
gunfire when we were there. The locals tell us that the marmots are
dwindling. The Indian soldiers are constantly taking potshots at them."
------------------------------
#2 Ibrahim rejects dissidents` demand for JDLP meet
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
Chief Minister J H Patel today said that he had authorised Deputy Chief
Minister Siddaramaiah, ministers M P Prakash, M C Nanaiah, P G R Sindhia, C
Byre Gowda and B Somashekar to look into the grievances of disgruntled
legislators.
Mr Patel told reporters that he had asked them to meet the legislators who
had recently demanded an emergency meeting of the Janata Dal Legislature
Party (JDLP) where the CM should seek a vote of confidence, and to find out
the issues they planned to discuss at the meeting.
Stating that Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda was also in favour of the senior
ministers discussing the matter with the legislators, Mr Patel remarked:
''I am not hesitating to convene the JDLP meeting. They should inform me of
the reason for convening it.``
Stating that the charges levelled by some legislators on his style of
functioning were trivial, Mr Patel asked: ''Can you think of a democratic
party without dissent?``
He said that the nominations for the three vacancies in the Legislative
Council would be announced tomorrow.
Meanwhile, State Janata Dal President C M Ibrahim today turned down the
dissident legislators` demand for an emergency JDLP meeting. He was of the
view that the issue did not warrant a meeting since it could be resolved
without much ado.
Replying to a host of queries at a meet-the-press programme organised by
the Bangalore Reporters` Guild and Press Club of Bangalore, Mr Ibrahim, who
is also Union Civil Aviation minister, and Information and Broadcasting
minister, said that it had been decided to request the senior leaders to
iron out the differences. ''Surely there is no need to convene a meeting of
the JDLP. One or two hours` discussion with the legislators can solve the
issue. If my presence is required again, I will come back here,`` he added.
Asked how he rated Mr Patel`s administration, Mr Ibrahim said that the
chief minister had done his best considering the government`s financial
crunch. Though there were some shortfalls, Mr Patel alone could not be
blamed as it was the duty of all partymen to share the burden, he said.
When it was pointed out that he too was to blame for the present rumblings
in the state unit of the party, Mr Ibrahim admitted that he had not been
able to give due attention to party activities here, knowing which he had
offered to resign soon after becoming a Union minister.
However, he planned to tour the state extensively from next month and
rejuvenate the party. He also said that a national-level meeting of the
Janata Dal was going to be held at Surajkund on November 30 and December 1.
Mr Ibrahim said there was no move to replace party president Laloo Prasad
Yadav with Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda.
''No move as of today,`` Mr Ibrahim, a close confidant of Mr Gowda,
responding to questions about the reported move to change the Bihar chief
minister as Janata Dal chief.
He said the United Front government had proved that it was a national
government through its unity and achievements in the last five-and-half
months. Despite all critics who predicted a short life for it, the UF
government remained in power and successfully implemented various policy
decisions.
The single achievement of the UF had been restoring democracy in Kashmir
without any intereference from any foreign nation and made it known to the
world that people of Kashmir preferred ballot to bullet, he said.
It was not important how long the UF government would remain in power but
what best it could do to the country, he added.
Following the request made by the Reporters` Guild and Press Club to grant
Rs.1.25 lakh for establishing a media centre at the Press Club, Cubbon
Park, here, Mr Ibrahim conceded the request on the spot and said he would
immediately do the needful.
#3 Joshi offers to break impasse on border row
MUMBAI, Nov 25 (UNI & PTI)
Maharashtra Chief Minister Manohar Joshi has sent a message to Karnataka
Chief Minister J H Patel expressing his willingness to meet him and discuss
the long-pending border dispute between the two states.
Mr Joshi sent the letter after he received one from Union Home Minister
Indrajit Gupta on Sunday. Mr Gupta, in the letter, asked both chief
ministers to settle the issue amicably. In fact, the Belgaum bundh on
November 20, followed by an indefinite hunger strike by agitators in New
Delhi, has prompted Mr Gupta to urge an immediate settlement.
Mr Joshi told UNI that he had sent the message to the Karnataka chief
minister and was ready to meet him at Mr Patel`s convenience. ''I am
waiting for the reply,`` he said.
Three elected representatives from the Maharashtra-Karnataka Boundary areas
- including Belgaum Mayor Bijoy Lakshmi Chopade - ended their indefinite
fast on the sixth day here today. The three were on fast, demanding an
immediate resolution to the boundary dispute between Maharashtra and
Karnataka.
The elected representatives ended the fast following Mr Gupta`s request to
the chief ministers of the two states to resolve the dispute at the
earliest.
Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray and Mr Joshi also appealed to them to end
the fast. Maharashtra Labour Minister Sabir Sheikh, who came here as a
representative of the Sena chief and Mr Joshi, offered orange juice to Mrs
Chopade and others who undertook the fast.
Mr Mohan Rawale, Mr Narayan Athavale and Mr Satish Pradhan, all Shiv Sena
MPs, were present on the occasion. Mr Rawale, reading out messages from Mr
Thackeray and Mr Joshi, said that the stalling of the Lok Sabha proceedings
on the boundary issue was a major achievement. The Union home minister
admitted in his letter to the two chief ministers that the boundary dispute
was an ''unsettled`` issue.
The chief minister, in his message, said that he would soon convene a
meeting of the four-member committee to amicably resolve the boundary
dispute. Besides Mr Joshi, former chief minister Sharad Pawar, Planning
Commission Deputy Chairman Madhu Dandavate and Prof N D Patil, of the
Peasants and Workers` Party (PWP), are members of the committee.
#4 No let up on foreign TV or airlines: Ibrahim
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
Union Information and Broadcasting Minister C M Ibrahim today said the
Centre was planning to impose legal restrictions on foreign television
channels to safeguard the ''culture`` and ''integrity`` of the country and
ruled out allowing the entry of foreign print media.
Mr Ibrahim said though due respect should be given to the right of speech,
there should at the same time be some restrictions on what foreign channels
beam from their country. He also cited the example of France where no
foreign channel was allowed to telecast news.
Without divulging the nature of the restrictions to be imposed in view of
the ongoing Parliament session, the minister said opinions of leaders of
all political parties would be sought before arriving at a final decision
in this regard.
Saying that Doordarshan was making efforts to increase its revenue, he said
that in the last five months it had earned Rs.70 crore more compared to the
same period last year. A plan was being worked out to make up the loss of
Rs.300 crore for having made DD3 an international channel, he added.
Referring to the much discussed Prasar Bharati Bill, the minister said he
had already held two rounds of discussions with various political parties
and a decision on its implementation would be taken shortly.
He also said that any policy decisions to be taken pertaining to the fourth
estate would be in consultation with the Press Council of India.
Regarding the aviation sector, Mr Ibrahim who also is the civil avation
minister, categorically said that foreign air service in the Indian
domestic sector cannot be allowed though foreign investment in airport
infrastructure development was welcome. ''When foreign countries do not
permit other countries to enter their domestic air service sector, how can
I permit the same here? And, why should it be permitted?`` he wondered.
Stating that efforts were on to revitalise Air India and Indian Airlines
keeping in view the interest of its 53,000 employees, the minister said
that by giving top priority for ''punctuality`` of air timings and
''optimum`` utilisation of the aircrafts, the loss incurred by Indian
Airlines would be brought to nil in next three months and it would start
earning profits by September next.
While emphasising the need for maximum utilisation of the present
aircrafts, Mr Ibrahim said he was trying to win the confidence of air
passengers by trying to understand their grievances against IA and AI. He
also said he had introduced a new system wherein passengers could directly
post a card to him explaining the problems faced by them while travelling
in IA or AI flight. ''I will personally reply to all the letters. On an
average I get 200 to 300 letters a day,`` he added.
Saying that the present process of setting up various committees to decide
the purchase of new aircrafts was highly time consuming, the minister
pointed out that IA and AI had lost over Rs.1,000 crore in the last five
years following the delay in purchase of aircrafts. He said he had directed
the Ministry to change the process while maintaining transparency in
dealings.
Referring to criticism regarding safety norms followed by the Delhi and
Mumbai airports, Mr Ibrahim said the improved safety procedures, as mooted
by the US company Raytheon, would be adopted by both airports in the next
three to four months. ''There is nothing wrong in the present system as
this is internationally accepted. But, still we want to improve. So far, no
inquiry commissions set up to probe into the air accidents have put the
blame on air safety measures followed by us,`` he maintained.
Asked when the Centre would give final clearance for the proposed Rs.15,000
crore international airport at Devanahalli north of Bangalore, Mr Ibrahim
said that the techno-economic feasibility report of the State government
had not yet reached him. ''Within seven days of receiving the report, I
will give clearance,`` he declared.
#5 Women clinch both posts for the first time; Padmavathi is Bangalore Mayor
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
For the first time in the State`s history, women have cornered the
posts of mayor and deputy mayor in the Bangalore City Corporation.
Ms Padmavathi Gangadhara Gowda and Ms Venkatalakshmi of the Janata Dal were
today elected mayor and deputy mayor respectively.
With the election of the mayor and the deputy mayor, an elected council has
been restored in Bangalore, which has been under administrator`s rule since
May 1995. Earlier, the newly elected members took oath.
Bangalore Divisional Commissioner Kotilingangouda conducted the election.
Ms Padmavathi, whose choice as the party`s unanimous candidate was
finalised by Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda himself late last night,
defeated the Bharatiya Janata Party nominee for the post, Mr M Gopal Reddy,
by 28 votes. Ms Padmavathi secured 60 of the 92 votes polled and Mr Reddy
32.
Of the 136 voting members of the council (99 corporators and 37 legislators
and MPs who are ex-officio members), 117 were present. However, 25 of them
(21 Congress, 3 Navanirmana Nagarika Samiti and 1 independent) abstained
from voting.
The voting was through a show of hands.
Ms Padmavathi, who represents Yediyur ward (No 59), is the second woman
Mayor of the City. The first woman Mayor was Ms Indiramma (Cong-I) in 1960.
Ms Padmavathi holds a degree in Hindi and is serving her second term as
corporator. Earlier she was elected to the BCC from the same ward in 1983.
She had served as member of the BCC standing committees on finance, works,
accounts and social justice. An active member of the Lions Club and various
voluntary organisations, she is also on the board of directors of the
Bharath Co-operative House Building Society, Jayanagar.
Party sources said that it was the closeness of her family to Mr Deve Gowda
which clinched the choice in her favour as there were at least four serious
contenders. She is originally from Hassan, the home district of the prime
minister. Her bio-data released to the press also states that her husband,
Mr Gangadhara Gowda, a former BDA member, ''has been active in politics as
a close associate of Mr Deve Gowda.``
Mr B R Nanjundappa of the JD, who was also a serious contender for the
post, filed his nomination but withdrew it later.
Ms Venkatalakshmi`s choice as the party nominee for the deputy mayor`s post
was almost a foregone conclusion as the post was reserved for SC women. She
was the only SC woman corporator in the JD. She defeated the BJP candidate
for the post, Ms M Vasudha, by 65 to 32 votes. She represents the
Lingarajapuram reserve ward (No 88) and was elected to the BCC for the
first time.
The Janata Dal, single largest party in the October 27 BCC elections, in
which no party gained a majority, would have found it difficult to secure
the two posts had the Opposition BJP and the Congress fielded a common
candidate.
But the Congress decided to remain neutral, paving the way for the Janta
Dal to get its candidates elected to the posts.
All but one of the 11 independents (including three party rebels), the lone
KCP and DMK members and AIADMK legislator from the city B Muniyappa also
voted for the Dal.
Soon after her election as the 34th Mayor, Ms Gowda released a statement to
the members in which she listed her priorities for the planned development
of the City and welfare of backward sections and women.
''The city which is considered as the fastest growing one in Asia lacks
basic civic amenities. The congested and narrow roads pose serious problems
to vehicular movements. The work on fly-overs should be expedited. Drinking
water and streetlight facilities need to be improved,`` she stated and
sought the co-operation of the members in this regard.
She recalled the drive launched by Mr Deve Gowda as chief minister last
year to regularise revenue sites by collecting improvement charges from
site owners and to use the money thus collected for providing civic
amenities in the newly added areas of the city. She said she would continue
this programme.
#6 Site allotment to ex-MLAs and MPs challenged
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
A public interest litigation challenging the action of the State Government
and the Bangalore Development Authority (BDA) in allotting residential
sites to former MLAs and MPs has been admitted by the Karnataka High Court.
Former legislators Azeez Sait, L G Havanoor, Bheemanna Khandre and S
Revanna are among the respondents in the case. Mr Justice B V Raveendran
granted an interim order till December 10, keeping the earlier orders in
abeyance.
In the petition, advocate S Vasudeva had contended that all the allotees
owned properties in their native places and in Bangalore had obtained the
permission and allotment by giving false information.
It was further alleged that the government, the BDA and other government
agencies had acted illegally and arbitrarily in ignoring the 80,000
applicants waiting for allotment of sites.
In another case, Mr Justice G P Shivaprakash admitted a writ petition filed
by scion of Mysore royal family Srikantadatta Narasimharaja Wodeyar
challenging the validity of the recent government enactment on Bangalore
Palace. The court posted the matter for further hearing on December 4.
#7 Medical college admissions begin
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
The much delayed counselling/seat allotment process for admission to
professional colleges officially commenced today with Higher Education
Minister B Somashekhar presenting mementoes to some of the rank-holders.
Madhuri M G (8th rank in the Common Entrance Test) was the first candidate
to undergo the counselling process and she chose Bangalore Medical College.
The first four students opted for Bangalore Medical College.
On the first day, Karnataka students with ranks 1 to 600 were to undergo
the counselling/seat allotment. Counselling for non-Karnataka students is
scheduled to start on December 10.
Counselling for engineering seats is scheduled to commence on November 28
and the process will go on till January 12, 1997.
Speaking to reporters after the memento presentation ceremony, Mr
Somashekhar, expressed regret for the inordinate delay in the start of the
admission process, said that it was due to circumstances beyond the
government`s control. A lot of confusion prevailed due to the intake
problem which has now been cleared, he added.
He said the admission process would be streamlined next year and the
time-table would be announced well in advance. Admissions would be made
strictly according to the time-table to avoid any confusion.
Mr Somashekhar said classes would be held during the holidays to complete
the syllabus and coaching time would be reduced.
Every Saturday there would be a reallotment of seats which, for some
reason, had been vacated. However, these would be available only to the
next rank-holder.
The CET Cell will also be bringing out daily bulletins (Rs.5 per copy)
giving information about seat availability so that the counselling process
itself would not take much time with the students having decided the
college and course of their choice based on the information available in
the bulletin.
Mr Somashekhar also stressed that there was no room for any kind of
manipulation as far as allotment of seats was concerned. He also warned
students and parents against being misled by persons who promised them
seats in colleges of their choice. ''Even as a minister I cannot favour
anyone,`` he added.
He stated that a Cabinet committee headed by him and comprising Health and
Family Welfare Minister H C Mahadevappa, Medical Education Minister Shankar
Naik and others had constituted an experts committee headed by the former
vice-chancellor of Mangalore University to go into the issue of whether
Karnataka needed more medical colleges and the guidelines for setting up
new colleges, if needed. The government would take a decision based on the
panel`s recommendations, he said.
#8 Patel assures speedy Cabinet decision on KSRTC
Deccan Herald News Service
By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, Nov 25
Chief Minister J H Patel today said that a decision on decentralisation of
the Karnataka State Road Transport Corporation (KSRTC) and creation of a
seperate wing for the Bangalore Transport Service (BTS), to ensure
administrative convenience and efficiency, will be taken at the next
cabinet meeting.
Briefing reporters after a meeting held here today to review the
performance and the financial position of the KSRTC, the CM said the
meeting, attended by Transport Minister P G R Sindhia and senior officials
of the KSRTC, decided unanimously that the KSRTC should be divided into
three divisions with offices at Bangalore, Hubli and Gulbarga to be headed
by the Corporation`s divisional commissioners and that the administration
of the BTS should be brought under a seperate wing to be headed by a
commissioner.
''Such a move would improve the administration of the transport
corporation,`` Mr Patel said and added that the cabinet decision would take
effect within three weeks of the meeting.
Pointing out that the KSRTC already has its main office in Bangalore, the
chief minister said that the properties of the depots at Hubli and Gulbarga
would be entrusted to the divisional offices of the areas, as per the rules
of the Corporation.
Stating that there were several complaints by commuters regarding the
quality of services provided by KSRTC, Mr Patel hoped that decentralisation
of the corporation would ease the hardship of the commuters. The
decentralisation move would not be an additional burden on the State
exchequer, he added.
Terming the proposal to privatise the KSRTC as relevant, Mr Patel said the
proposal would be examined later.
------------------------------
End of India News Network Digest
********************************
From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Mon Nov 25 21:26:02 1996
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 10:26:02 +1300
Subject: Hindi [was Re: Cash Cows..]
Message-ID: <161227027052.23782.15240217915312304524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Jakub Cejka wrote:
>Sorry for entering into this discussion unrelated to Sanskrit...
Why? Is this the sanskrit mailing list?
- &
From nick.allen at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk Tue Nov 26 15:43:29 1996
From: nick.allen at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk (nick.allen at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 15:43:29 +0000
Subject: Q: The Goddess Sati & Indian Geography
Message-ID: <161227027060.23782.5915214465968332123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Re the dispersal of Sati's body, there is a comparative paper in C von
Fuerer-Haimendorf (= Fuerer- with umlaut) ed. Asian Highland Societies, New
Delhi Sterling, 1981, and, as is there mentioned, a more specific paper on
the puranic material by D C Sircar in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society
of Bengal Letters 14: 1-108, 1948.
From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Nov 26 19:34:05 1996
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 19:34:05 +0000
Subject: 19century exchange rates
Message-ID: <161227027063.23782.6169300146158817809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello out there,
I am reading letters from 19th century Indologists about book and mss
purchases etc. in India.
Does anyone know a) how much a Pound was to the Rupie in 1880?
And b) the Pound to the Mark (Kaiserreich)?
I have one letter mentioning an exchange: "...I got 176 Rs for the 300
Mark you sent me..." but then he continues to mention prices in
pounds as well...
Thanks for any comment!
Gabriele
----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123
----------------------------------------------------------
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Nov 26 20:02:25 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 21:02:25 +0100
Subject: Gold-digging ants
Message-ID: <161227027065.23782.11209628472143408537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Some years ago I looked into the puzzle concerning the gold-digging ants,
and among other things collected some entological papers on Afghan ant
species. It might interest you to know that some ants make anthills out of
sand and small stones, and that they carry the bigger pieces of rubble to
the top of the anthill in order to catch and keep the warmth of the sun. On
ground with gold particles among the sand and rubble, such particles may
easily have have been put on top of the anthills. The matter has been
treated in a major zoological work on ants (don't remember the name of it
right now), that refers to Herodotus and sees this kind of behaviour as the
basis for Herodotus' story. I suspect that it is possible that stories about
gold-digging marmots and gold-digging ants have been mixed up, producing the
monster ants described by Herodotus (otherwise, one would expect the Greeks
to know the difference between a marmot and an ant). It seems obvious to me
that animals digging and throwing up soil would tell people where gold was
to be found in the ground. In other words, if marmots - or ants - bring up
small nuggets of gold, all you have to do is to go on digging! (Should
countries in economic trouble introduce ants and marmots to boost their
economies??)
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Nov 27 03:36:18 1996
From: keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu (katherine eirene ulrich)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 21:36:18 -0600
Subject: Sati
Message-ID: <161227027067.23782.5375030675750993087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
There are extensive lists of references to the story of Sati's dismemberment
in (1) _Hindu_Myths_ (the Penguin Classics edition, trans. by Wendy Doniger
O'Flaherty); and (2) _The_Sakta_Pithas_ , by D.C. Sircar (Motilal
Banarsidass, 1973; the entire book is about the pilgrimage sites that sprang
up where the parts
of Sati's body fell).
From dvaita at eskimo.com Wed Nov 27 13:44:30 1996
From: dvaita at eskimo.com (Cyber Maadhva Sangha)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 05:44:30 -0800
Subject: Gold-digging ants; and soma
Message-ID: <161227027078.23782.10368413850456553987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> pippalADa is the name of a school in Atharva Veda. pipIlavAdam, paipIlavAdam
I haven't heard of any school by that name (unless you mean `shAkhA'),
but there certainly is a Rshi referred to in the Atharva Veda and
elsewhere, by the name pippalAda. He is the master who is approached
by six disciples, who each ask him a question, the transcript of the
dialogue being in the appropriately-named shhaTprashnopanishat.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Nov 27 13:29:53 1996
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 08:29:53 -0500
Subject: Gold-digging ants; and soma
Message-ID: <161227027077.23782.5545466348328556878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Kalyanaraman's message seems to combine several unrelated items into one.
The place-name Pimpalner is to be understood in Sanskrit as
Pippala-Nagara, where the first item refers to the Pippala tree, which is
rendered as PimpaL in Marathi. Many Marathi place-names are connected
with trees, cf. Va.dagaav, Skt. va.tagraama. Secondly, the Atharvavedic
name Paippalaada is unrelated to Pipiilikaa, but is again related to
Pippala + the verb atti in Sanskrit, cf. Upanishadic passage: dvaa
supar.naa sayujaa sakhaayaa samaanam v.rk.sam pari.sasvajaate / tayor
anya.h pippalam svaadv atty ana"snann anyo abhicaaka"siiti //
Madhav Deshpande
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman wrote:
> Hi,
> pipIlika has two meanings: an ant; a kind of gold supposed to be collected
> by ants(MBh.Kannada).
> piippalanagara is the name of a town (Jules Bloch 368); pimpalner in
> Maharashtra.
> pipIla refers to an ant in RV (x.16.6); is a large black ant in Chandogya
> Upanishad.
> pipRi is a black ant in Santali language and in almost all Indian languages
> with slight
> phonetic stylizations.
> pippalADa is the name of a school in Atharva Veda. pipIlavAdam, paipIlavAdam
> is explained in
> Sangam tamil as: a philosophical explanation of the atom as the cause of the
> world.
> An important ingredient in the soma process described in the vedic texts is the
> earth from ant-hills.
> I have suggested elsewhere that soma refers to electrum (gold-silver ore)
> smelting.
> The gold dug up by the ants could have an important bearing in this process.
> Regards, Kalyanaraman.
>
> At 08:09 PM 11/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
> >Some years ago I looked into the puzzle concerning the gold-digging ants,
> >and among other things collected some entological papers on Afghan ant
> >species. It might interest you to know that some ants make anthills out of
> >sand and small stones, and that they carry the bigger pieces of rubble to
> >the top of the anthill in order to catch and keep the warmth of the sun. On
> >ground with gold particles among the sand and rubble, such particles may
> >easily have have been put on top of the anthills. The matter has been
> >treated in a major zoological work on ants (don't remember the name of it
> >right now), that refers to Herodotus and sees this kind of behaviour as the
> >basis for Herodotus' story. I suspect that it is possible that stories about
> >gold-digging marmots and gold-digging ants have been mixed up, producing the
> >monster ants described by Herodotus (otherwise, one would expect the Greeks
> >to know the difference between a marmot and an ant). It seems obvious to me
> >that animals digging and throwing up soil would tell people where gold was
> >to be found in the ground. In other words, if marmots - or ants - bring up
> >small nuggets of gold, all you have to do is to go on digging! (Should
> >countries in economic trouble introduce ants and marmots to boost their
> >economies??)
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Lars Martin Fosse
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
From thompson at jlc.net Wed Nov 27 13:24:31 1996
From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:24:31 -0400
Subject: Gold-digging ants
Message-ID: <161227027080.23782.4151703705903866244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Those on the list who are interested in gold-digging ants might find useful
Ditte Koenig's very thorough "Das Tor zur Unterwelt: Mythologie und Kult
des Termitenhuegels in der Schriftlichen und Muendlichen Tradition Indiens"
[Wiesbaden, 1984]. Besides offering an extensive bibliography, Koenig
offers a survey of alternative theories [i.e., that these gold-digging ants
were possibly: not only marmots but also pangolins, Steppenfuechse
(corsacs), gold miners, their dogs, some tribe or other [Tibetan? Altaic?
Mongolian?], and other exotic animals].
There is an interesting ref. to Tucci: "Preliminary Report on two
scientific Expeditions in Nepal" [Rome, 1956], who says
"... just as the word pipIlika for ant as well as for the gold collected by
the ants may be derived from the Tibetan name for marmot, viz. p'yi or p'yi
bi. Therefore Nagar may be the 'marmot place', which explains the story of
the gold digging marmots [in India taken for big ants]..." [Koenig, p. 64,
n.175].
My own impression, formed from the wealth of detail offered by Koenig, is
that the recent article about Michel Peissel's researches doesn't really
settle a very complicated issue.
p.s. Koenig also offers an English summary at the end of his book.
Sincerely,
George Thompson
From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Nov 27 09:57:07 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:57:07 +0000
Subject: Gold-digging ants; and soma
Message-ID: <161227027068.23782.10623521777013536828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
pipIlika has two meanings: an ant; a kind of gold supposed to be collected
by ants(MBh.Kannada).
piippalanagara is the name of a town (Jules Bloch 368); pimpalner in
Maharashtra.
pipIla refers to an ant in RV (x.16.6); is a large black ant in Chandogya
Upanishad.
pipRi is a black ant in Santali language and in almost all Indian languages
with slight
phonetic stylizations.
pippalADa is the name of a school in Atharva Veda. pipIlavAdam, paipIlavAdam
is explained in
Sangam tamil as: a philosophical explanation of the atom as the cause of the
world.
An important ingredient in the soma process described in the vedic texts is the
earth from ant-hills.
I have suggested elsewhere that soma refers to electrum (gold-silver ore)
smelting.
The gold dug up by the ants could have an important bearing in this process.
Regards, Kalyanaraman.
At 08:09 PM 11/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Some years ago I looked into the puzzle concerning the gold-digging ants,
>and among other things collected some entological papers on Afghan ant
>species. It might interest you to know that some ants make anthills out of
>sand and small stones, and that they carry the bigger pieces of rubble to
>the top of the anthill in order to catch and keep the warmth of the sun. On
>ground with gold particles among the sand and rubble, such particles may
>easily have have been put on top of the anthills. The matter has been
>treated in a major zoological work on ants (don't remember the name of it
>right now), that refers to Herodotus and sees this kind of behaviour as the
>basis for Herodotus' story. I suspect that it is possible that stories about
>gold-digging marmots and gold-digging ants have been mixed up, producing the
>monster ants described by Herodotus (otherwise, one would expect the Greeks
>to know the difference between a marmot and an ant). It seems obvious to me
>that animals digging and throwing up soil would tell people where gold was
>to be found in the ground. In other words, if marmots - or ants - bring up
>small nuggets of gold, all you have to do is to go on digging! (Should
>countries in economic trouble introduce ants and marmots to boost their
>economies??)
>
>Best regards,
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>
>
From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Nov 27 09:59:47 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:59:47 +0000
Subject: gold-digging ants
Message-ID: <161227027070.23782.1686538281952627416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear indology members,
you may be interested in visiting a beautiful site on marmots with
excellent photographs:
http://www.islandnet.com/~marmot
regards. kalyanaraman.
At 01:17 AM 11/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear Indology Members,
> I would like to draw your attention to a fascinating article by
>Marlise Simons in today's New York Times (Nov 25, 1996, page A7). It is
>titled:
> "Himalayas offer clue to legend of gold-digging ants"
>
> All the best,
> Madhav Deshpande
>
>
>
>
From jkcowart at io-online.com Wed Nov 27 21:03:47 1996
From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 13:03:47 -0800
Subject: Janaka's vision - many thanks
Message-ID: <161227027088.23782.11208285930501061727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello--and thank you,
I am grateful for the assistance I received from members of both the
Indology and Sanskrit lists re: Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar
and the Yoga Vaisistha.
For those interested in this topic, Mantralaura has advised:
>Here are a few titles of books regarding
>Yoga VashiShTha that are currently in the
>Arsha Vidya collection:
>Essence of Yoga VashiShTha - (tr.) Samvid
>Laghu Yoga VasiShTha of Abhinanda - K.N. Aiyer (tr.)
>Stories From Yoga-VasiShTha - Sw. Siivaananda
>Supreme Yoga: Yoga VasiShTha - Sw. Venkatesaananda
>VasiShTha's Yoga - Sw. Venkatesaananda
I'm sure you can obtain more detailed information
>and prices. Their phone number is (717) 992-2339
>or FAX (717) 992-7150 or e-mail: ARSHA at epix.net
>or ARSHA at peach.epix.net
Furthermore, Dominik Wujast is quite correct that the
understanding at which Janaka ultimately arrives is presented in
Venekatesananda, S.* The Concise Yoga Vasistha*.
Albany, NY: State University of New York Press, 1984 (pp. 164ff);
and also that in this presentation--in which the power of reflection is
stressed--no vision occurs.
The "vision version" is said to be in the complete work, which
has been published in three English editions:
1) Venekatesananda, S. *Yogavasistharamayana. - The Supreme Yoga:
A New Translation* Foreword by H.H. Swami Ranganathananda.
1st ed. 2 vols. Cape Town, S.A.: Chiltern Yoga Trust, 1976.
(2 leaves of col. plates : ill. ; 21 cm. 3000 copies.)
2) ---------. *Yogavasistharamayana*. Western Australia: Chiltern
Yoga Trust, 1981.
3) ----------. *Vasistha's Yoga*. Albany, NY: State University of New
York Press, 1984.
Edition #3 may be purchased from Amazon.com ($49.95). Amazon also
has
O'Flaherty, Wendy D. *Dreams, Illusions, and Other Realities*.
Chicago: University of Chicago. 1984
a book Roy Perrett suggests may deal with the vision, as well. Amazon
sells this for $24.95.
For those in the San Diego area, Venekatesananda # 1) is available at the
SDSU library (stacks); #2) at the UCSD library (SRLF); and O'Flaherty
may be found in the stacks at both locations.
Best wishes and many thanks to all,
J. Kingston Cowart
San Diego, California
From thillaud at unice.fr Wed Nov 27 12:11:25 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 13:11:25 +0100
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027072.23782.4412413958608371822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In the 80th sarga of the Ayodhyakanda, Valmiki relates the building
of a road, specially in slokas 1-10 the clearing and levelling. Many terms
are not very clear to me, trades, objects ans actions; few examples:
bhumiipradezajnaaH are geographers, geologists or surveyors ?
what about the viiraNastambaaH, just weeding ?
what are the nimnabhaagaaH, marshes or ponds (opposite to sthalaani) ?
and then what about bandh-, kSud- and bhid- (confine, empty, drain ?) ?
etc.
I would like to know if exists a good reference explaining this passage in
proper terms of civil engeenering.
many thanks,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Nov 27 20:31:55 1996
From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 14:31:55 -0600
Subject: Q: Phone numbers
Message-ID: <161227027085.23782.6994355464360822483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dr. R. Nagaswamy is in Houston. He wants the telephone numbers
(home and/or office) of the following:
Vishaka N. Desai (New York)
Vidya Dehejia (Washington, D.C.)
Irene Winter (Harvard)
Pramod Chandra (Harvard)
Pratapaditya Pal (LA)
Pl. e-mail me directly.
Thanks & Happy Thanksgiving
N. Ganesan
nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
From athr at loc.gov Wed Nov 27 20:14:56 1996
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 15:14:56 -0500
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027083.23782.5207716806931474123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> >
> >jc> The Sanskritized Hindi,
> >jc> which is the one printed in Govt. paperwork, is understood only by
> >jc> more sofisticated people.
> >
> >Thank you for making this point, which confirms my own experience. This
> >again means that Hindi as a link language is rather superfluous, and
> >that (as language activists in the south argue) the time and other
> >resources which are spent in India on Hindi education would be spent
> >much better in improving both English and mother-tongue education.
>
> If I am not wrong, a similar thing applies to Urdu and a number of other NIA
> languages. The speech of educated people is full of words and expressions
> derived from Sanskrit, Persian or Arabic, with the result that non-educated
> speakers are pretty much excluded from the conversation. Moreover, this sort
> of thing seems to have applied already 2000 years ago - check out the
> sanskritized Prakrits! What we are dealing with is not simply a cultural
> ideal - today, it is also a question of language politics. If India decides
> to use a highly sanskritized Hindi as a link language, the inevitable
> consequence is the one you describe. If Hindi is to truly succeed as a link
> language, the first thing to do would seem to be to remove much of the
> Sanskrit and use the kind of language the majority of Hindi speakers speak,
> what usually was called Hindustani.
>
> Any opionions?
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>
>
>
That was what Gandhi wanted and as I recall the official party of the
Indian National Congress in his time.
Allen W. Thrasher
The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer.
From dvaita at eskimo.com Wed Nov 27 23:21:13 1996
From: dvaita at eskimo.com (Cyber Maadhva Sangha)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 15:21:13 -0800
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027090.23782.2403520887166187967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> Thank you for making this point, which confirms my own experience. This
> again means that Hindi as a link language is rather superfluous, and
> that (as language activists in the south argue) the time and other
> resources which are spent in India on Hindi education would be spent
> much better in improving both English and mother-tongue education.
Btw, who are these "language activists in the south"? The only
opposition to Hindi in the South is in Tamil Nadu, and that too only
from the DMK-type politicos who use that as a vote-generating issue.
And the bulk of the anti-Hindi agitation was before I was born. I
submit to you that there is no significant opposition to Hindi
elsewhere, and that in fact Hindi/Urdu are better understood in other
places in the South like Karnataka, than English.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> RZ.-
http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
From dvaita at eskimo.com Wed Nov 27 23:30:34 1996
From: dvaita at eskimo.com (Cyber Maadhva Sangha)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 15:30:34 -0800
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027092.23782.1969472123326127028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> lf> >Consider: a knowledge of standard modern Kannada gives one access
> lf> >to all the literature in that language since Basava (12th
> lf> >century). Written Tamil has [etc.]
>
> lf> It seems to me that we are entering a kind of discussion where we
> lf> quarrel about the cultural merit of various Indian regions.
> lf> Everybody "knows" that Bengali literature is "vastly superior" to
> lf> Hindi literature,
>
> I have given here not a literary evaluation of Hindi vs. Kannada/Tamil,
> but a very hard, totally objective historical fact that can be verified
> by anyone. There is just much more history in Kannada and Tamil (and
> other literatures) than in Hindi. This is simply _not_ a debatable
> issue. And this is an Indologically crucial matter.
Your "very hard, totally objective historical fact" is false. I am a
native Kannada speaker, and know for a fact that even compositions of
the 17th century and later are not easy to grasp for me. Try reading
the "hari-kathA-amrta-sAra" (18th cent.) if you want proof. There is
as little or as much available in Kannada for a modern speaker than
there is in Hindi, although it is certainly the case that the works of
Purandara Dasa, etc., have served to slow the change in the language,
just as change in post-Shakespearean English has been slower than it
was before him.
There is as much literature/"history" in Hindi, but it may be in
dialects other than the standard "khaDI bolii" of today. Just as much
of Kannada literature is in dialects other than today's official one.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> RZ.-
http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 27 13:02:10 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 18:02:10 +0500
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027073.23782.13583363274334395428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to Jakub Cejka.)
jc> Outside the so called "Hindi Belt" I've been in TN, Kerala, Orissa,
jc> W.B., Maharashtra. I must second the above. Or rather: those with
jc> whom you can have an intelligent conversation in Hindi do usually
jc> know English as well.
jc> The Sanskritized Hindi,
jc> which is the one printed in Govt. paperwork, is understood only by
jc> more sofisticated people.
Thank you for making this point, which confirms my own experience. This
again means that Hindi as a link language is rather superfluous, and
that (as language activists in the south argue) the time and other
resources which are spent in India on Hindi education would be spent
much better in improving both English and mother-tongue education.
RZ.-
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 27 13:03:10 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 18:03:10 +0500
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027075.23782.6311089232298672489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to Lars Martin Fosse)
lf> > lmfn> May I ask Robert Zydenbos the following question: Is there
lf> > lmfn> any other Indic language than Hindi that offers a
lf> > lmfn> certain amount of "transnational" communication
lf> > lmfn> (and does so better than Hindi)?
lf> > A "certain amount"? And do you mean international Indian
lf> > languages?
lf>
lf> By "certain amount" I mean that the language is mastered by other
lf> people than mother tongue speakers at at least an elementary level.
In India? Practically every language...
lf> By "transnational" I mean that the language can be used as a means
lf> of communication between speakers of various mother tongues. I
lf> should also add that it would be the language preferred as a second
lf> language by a fair number of people.
lf> In our context, the word is relevant in so far as India has a
lf> number of states made on the basis of linguistic criteria. But I
lf> would agree that the word transnational is not entirely apt in this
lf> context, since India is the "nation" and the states do not
lf> constitute "nations" in the common sense of the word (although they
lf> may have their own subnationalisms). The bottom line
Do you realize that you are making the discussion vague to the point
of being meaningless? We cannot bandy words and phrases like
"certain amount", "fair number" and "transnational" in this way without
stricter criteria. (And I may add here: all the persons who have spoken
up here in defense of the status quo of Hindi vs. other-modern-language
studies have been doing this. It is useless, quasi-statistical
argumentation in support of a myth.)
lf> >Consider: a knowledge of standard modern Kannada gives one access
lf> >to all the literature in that language since Basava (12th
lf> >century). Written Tamil has [etc.]
lf> It seems to me that we are entering a kind of discussion where we
lf> quarrel about the cultural merit of various Indian regions.
lf> Everybody "knows" that Bengali literature is "vastly superior" to
lf> Hindi literature,
I have given here not a literary evaluation of Hindi vs. Kannada/Tamil,
but a very hard, totally objective historical fact that can be verified
by anyone. There is just much more history in Kannada and Tamil (and
other literatures) than in Hindi. This is simply _not_ a debatable
issue. And this is an Indologically crucial matter.
[about quantitative, quasi-statistical argumentation]
lf> Isn't this a rather emotional argument? Quantitative arguments are
lf> important, given the fact that academic studies have to be funded.
There are no quantitative arguments that stand rational, critical
investigation: that is the poor joke of this discussion. I must repeat:
before a quantitative argument has any force, a qualitative criterion
must first be established -- otherwise we don't know what we are
talking about, and the discussion becomes murky and useless. There is
nothing emotional about this - quite the contrary.
RZ.-
From neelisja at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 03:25:49 1996
From: neelisja at u.washington.edu (J. Neelis)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 19:25:49 -0800
Subject: The Gold Digging Ants of Herodotus
Message-ID: <161227027098.23782.5322467586099522945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indology members,
In addition to Ditte Konig's Das Tor zur Unterwelt referred to in an
earlier post by George Thompson, a very good summation of theories about
the gold-digging "ants", anteaters, marmots, mastiffs, hamsters, hyenas,
jackals, pangolins, badgers etc. of Herodotus can be found in Klaus
Karttunen's study on India in Early Greek Literature (Studia Orientalia,
vol. 65, Helsinki:1989) pgs. 171-76.Karttunen points out that the idea of
identifying marmots with the gold-digging ants of Herodotus actually
originated with the travels of William Moorcroft in Ladakh in the early
1800s and was adopted by many commentators on Herodotus. However, the
identity of the gold-digging ants remains unproven because Herodotus'
anecdote (which he ascribes to the Persians, 3.105) was part of the
fantastic vision of this remote area situated on the frontier between
South Asia, Central Asia and East Asia.
In addition to classical Greek sources, other literary traditions connect
this region with ants and gold. The Mahaabhaarata (2.48.4) contains a
similar story of gold brought by ants(pippilikaiH) from the far northwest,
a parallel first noted by H.H. Wilson in Antiquities and Coins of
Afghanistan and Northern India (1841) pgs. 135-6.
Another interesting reference to this region and gold which was brought
to my attention by reading Karl Jettmar's article on the Patola Shahis in
Antiquities of Northern Pakistan, vol.2 (1991) pgs. 107ff. is the Inquiry
ofVimalaprabhaa, a Tibetan text published by F.W. Thomas in 1935. In this
story based on an ex-eventu prophecy of the struggle over Baltistan
between the Tibetans and Chinese in the 8th century AD, a princess of
Skardu takes refuge in the "gold country." According to the text, the
"gold race" was created through the union of 500 merchants who had come
there to collect gold and 500 Raaks.asiis led by the incarnation of
Vimalaprabhaa as the upasikaa Hu-za, whom Thomas triedto identify as a
marmot because in her raaks.asii form her ears were cut
off.
The Chinese pilgrim Hsuan-tsang who travelled to India through the
Northwest in the 7th century AD also refers to a country called
Suvarn.agotra ruled by women bordered by Tibet on the east and Khotan on
the north, which might be identified with Baltistan, Ladakh, or
Zanskar.
Gold-digging ants are mentionted in the Mongolian version of the Gesar
epic (see Karttunen fn. 200), which was and still is popular in many parts
of Central Asia. In Foreign Devils on the Silk Road by Peter Hopkirk,
there may also be local legends of gold-digging ants or other demon-like
creatures who drive away treasure hunters.What all of these accounts have
in common are fantasies about faraway regions on the periphery of known
civilization where fabulous beings mine gold.
It is ironic that the Soniwals who actually sift for gold in temporary
camps on the banks of the Indus River around Chilas in northern Pakistan
and in Baltistan are and have probably always been the poorest of the
poor. A much greater terror than the gold-digging ants are the
flesh-eating flies, as anyone who goes to look at inscriptions and
petroglyphs along the river bank at the wrong time of year will quickly
discover.
I am not familiar with Mr. Peissel's book, The Ants' Gold, mentioned in
the New York Times article, but I suspect that his explanation that
confusion arose because the Persian word for marmot is equivalent for
"mountain ant" is based on modern Persian instead of Old
Persian.
I think this debate (and the unlikely media coverage!) over the
gold-digging ants of Herodotus reflects our fascination with the rapidly
disappearing El Dorados and Shangri Las of this world.
Regards,
Jason Neelis
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Nov 27 19:33:05 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 20:33:05 +0100
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027082.23782.11319873706174805346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
>jc> The Sanskritized Hindi,
>jc> which is the one printed in Govt. paperwork, is understood only by
>jc> more sofisticated people.
>
>Thank you for making this point, which confirms my own experience. This
>again means that Hindi as a link language is rather superfluous, and
>that (as language activists in the south argue) the time and other
>resources which are spent in India on Hindi education would be spent
>much better in improving both English and mother-tongue education.
If I am not wrong, a similar thing applies to Urdu and a number of other NIA
languages. The speech of educated people is full of words and expressions
derived from Sanskrit, Persian or Arabic, with the result that non-educated
speakers are pretty much excluded from the conversation. Moreover, this sort
of thing seems to have applied already 2000 years ago - check out the
sanskritized Prakrits! What we are dealing with is not simply a cultural
ideal - today, it is also a question of language politics. If India decides
to use a highly sanskritized Hindi as a link language, the inevitable
consequence is the one you describe. If Hindi is to truly succeed as a link
language, the first thing to do would seem to be to remove much of the
Sanskrit and use the kind of language the majority of Hindi speakers speak,
what usually was called Hindustani.
Any opionions?
Lars Martin Fosse
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Nov 27 21:26:44 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 22:26:44 +0100
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027086.23782.16950177852143749846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In response to Robert Zydenbos:
>lf> By "certain amount" I mean that the language is mastered by other
>lf> people than mother tongue speakers at at least an elementary level.
>In India? Practically every language...
Very good. Let me be more specific: What is the distribution of the speakers
of a given language? E.g.: Assuming you learn a given Indic language, what
is the chance that you will meet people who master that language all over
India? Since Hindi has been promoted at the national level, I have suggested
that you anywhere in India (outside the Hindi belt) have a better chance of
meeting a Hindi speaker than you would have of meeting a speaker of, say,
Tamil or Malayalam (outside the areas where these languages are spoken). I
know that people often speak other languages that are spoken in the same
area as their own, just as people who live in border areas often speak
several languages, but that is hardly what we are discussing.
>lf> By "transnational" I mean that the language can be used as a means
>lf> of communication between speakers of various mother tongues. I
>lf> should also add that it would be the language preferred as a second
>lf> language by a fair number of people.
>
>lf> In our context, the word is relevant in so far as India has a
>lf> number of states made on the basis of linguistic criteria. But I
>lf> would agree that the word transnational is not entirely apt in this
>lf> context, since India is the "nation" and the states do not
>lf> constitute "nations" in the common sense of the word (although they
>lf> may have their own subnationalisms). The bottom line
>
>Do you realize that you are making the discussion vague to the point
>of being meaningless? We cannot bandy words and phrases like
>"certain amount", "fair number" and "transnational" in this way without
>stricter criteria.
I do not see that I am making the discussion vague. But I am avoiding too
specific statements, and I do that for a reason: They are not necessary and
might even create a false impression. Any person with a bit of travelling
experience knows when he is able to communicate and when he is not. In a
place where he is able to communicate, he meets a "certain amount" of people
who master the language he uses. I do not have to specify exactly how many,
nor is it necessary to specify the exact percentage of the population that
know the language at a certain level. The opposite situation occurs when
such a person has a hard time finding anyone who speaks the languages s/he
knows. I have a feeling that you are dodging the issue: Which language will
get you further than other languages in India as a whole? In a European
context, for instance, it is English, not French or German, although you may
very well find that some people in, say Italy, communicate better in French
than in English, and that older people in Eastern Europe have a better grasp
of German than English.
(And I may add here: all the persons who have spoken
>up here in defense of the status quo of Hindi vs. other-modern-language
>studies have been doing this. It is useless, quasi-statistical
>argumentation in support of a myth.)
Again, I feel that you are a bit emotional. You have so far not been able to
show that other Indic languages are better means of communication on a
national level than Hindi.
>I have given here not a literary evaluation of Hindi vs. Kannada/Tamil,
>but a very hard, totally objective historical fact that can be verified
>by anyone. There is just much more history in Kannada and Tamil (and
>other literatures) than in Hindi. This is simply _not_ a debatable
>issue. And this is an Indologically crucial matter.
I am not contesting that. Bengalis would point out - and be right - that
there is much more - and possibly better - literature in Bengali as well.
Hindi as we know it today is a young language. So what? It is still the
language spoken by most Indians (in one form or the other), and if you
insist upon telling our potential funders that Hindi is a hoax (or a "myth")
and thereby rob Indologists of an argument even a bureaucrat can understand,
you will probably only achieve that less money will be given to Indic
studies generally. Why don't you leave planet Zorc and join us earthlings?
>There are no quantitative arguments that stand rational, critical
>investigation:
Yes there are.
>before a quantitative argument has any force, a qualitative criterion
>must first be established
Any person who takes an interest in India will see with half an eye that
qualitative arguments offer themselves galore for the study of practically
every aspect of Indic society and linguistics. Still, Indic studies are
fighting with the back against the wall in many places. In universities
these days, quantitative arguments are much more important than qualitative
arguments as far as the humanities and social sciences are concerned. That
is where "surplus" young people are being "dumped" because there are no jobs
for them. The only way to preserve the study of "quality languages" (Hindi
speakers pardon the expression) is to study them sheltered by "cash cows"
such as Hindi or Urdu (in Norway actually more important than Hindi). In
wealthy universities, you might achieve that a special department for
Dravidian studies is created. But don't bank on it these days.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From joe at sfbooks.com Thu Nov 28 09:09:22 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 03:09:22 -0600
Subject: 2nd RFD: soc.history.ancient
Message-ID: <161227027101.23782.6850692032985380303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
unmoderated group soc.history.ancient
CHANGES from previous RFD:
The changes are few and would not ordinarily require a new RFD in their own
right. However, a combination of the long delay since the 1st RFD, and
difficulties in fulfilling that RFD's commitments, have led to the decision
to issue this 2nd RFD.
Material changes are as follows:
The charter's language has been clarified, a little with regard to maps and
other graphic images, a little with regard to commercial notices, and
substantially with regard to related newsgroups and the kinds of postings
considered better posted in them.
The rationale has been expanded with clarification of how the proponents see
soc.history.ancient as adding to the existing set of relevant newsgroups,
and with a short summary of why A.D. 700 was chosen as the cutoff date.
Both have been supplemented by the addition of references to a World Wide
Web site where some past posts can be found, as well as an e-mail address
for obtaining them.
The real reasons for this RFD, however, are as follows:
First, we had trouble distributing the first RFD to the mailing lists where
scholarly discussion of ancient history primarily takes place on the nets.
As a result, in many cases, the RFD only arrived on a given mailing list
after discussion in news.groups had entirely died out. Readers of the
mailing lists were not given the opportunity to participate fully.
Second, in post <4uadnk$oc4 at sloth.swcp.com>, we committed ourselves to a
straw poll on the subject of moderation. Responses both in news postings
and in e-mail to the lead proponent were to be counted. Unfortunately, the
lead proponent's computer crashed late in the RFD period, with the result
that e-mail responses were lost. News responses were roughly evenly split;
it's worth noting, again, that people who saw the RFD on the mailing lists
were unlikely to find out about this straw poll thanks to our lateness in
sending the RFD.
Finally, we eventually overshot the 90-day limit on proposals, so even
without these difficulties, this RFD would now be necessary anyway.
We'll try to do better this time.
Perhaps the most contentious topic during the first discussion period was
moderation. None of the proponents much wants to propose a moderated group
at this time; representative posts on this subject include
, <4ub51u$diq at pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
and <4u7lvg$di3 at sloth.swcp.com>. However, if the bulk of opinion in this
new discussion favours moderation, we will try to work something out.
Please see post for some remarks
on how a moderated group might work, if this is important to you. All of
the posts referenced in this RFD can also be obtained at web site
or by e-mail from
or . (The latter are not automatic
servers!) To cast a vote in favour of or against moderation without
posting publicly, please e-mail .
Newsgroup line:
soc.history.ancient Ancient history (up to AD 700).
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup soc.history.ancient. This is
not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural
details are below.
RATIONALE: soc.history.ancient
Ancient history already is a topic of much interest on Usenet, where it
is discussed in multiple newsgroups, and many mailing lists are also
devoted to it. However, Usenet discussion is often fragmented, and/or
off-topic in the groups where it occurs. This proposal seeks to create
an intuitively obvious central place for such discussion.
Existing Usenet newsgroups where ancient history is discussed but is off-
topic include sci.archaeology and its offshoots; soc.history.medieval; and
humanities.classics. Ancient history is at best marginal in sci.archaeology
the extent that it concerns questions subject to archaeological investigation.
Recent threads in these groups which are off-topic of marginally so include
ones about the historicity of Jesus, Josephus' account of Masada, the alleged
salting of Carthage, Roman legions, Roman cities, Celts and Gypsies, and
Celtic knowledge (from the classical period).
In soc.history.medieval, where much discussion occurs, ancient history
is strictly off-topic; the charter defines the group's scope as beginning
at approximately AD 500. Yet threads with enormous activity concerning
ancient Christianity, Rome, and Celts have been common in the group since
its incepion.
Sci.classics (now becoming humanities.classics) is the most problematic
case. The newsgroup's traditions specifically include the history of
the Greco-Roman world and neighbouring regions as far as India. All the
same, sci.classics is not an intuitively obvious place to look for such
topics and in practice sci.classics has been dominated by linguistic/literary
discussions which do not fully address ancient historical interests. Short
historical questions are usually answered but discussion rarely results.
Soc.history.ancient is likely to be the first place people stop who are
interested in the ancient world. The group's charter and FAQ will help
to direct them to more appropriate newsgroups where these exist.
Soc.history.ancient should help, for example, improve the visibility of
humanities.classics.
During the first RFD discussion, questions were raised about the choice
of A.D. 700 as a cutoff date. From ,
here's an explanation of this admittedly rather late endpoint for
"ancient history":
>It's the low point of Latin and Greek classical culture. It's
>shortly after the Muslim explosion and thus enables discussion
>of (for example) Byzantium up to the Muslim conquest of Syria
>and Egypt, including those conquests. It's therefore also just
>after the Muslim conquest of the Sasanids. It's shortly after
>the reign of Harsha in India, and it's just after the
>reunification of China by the Sui. Every major civilisation of
>the Old World, in other words, has at least a significant (if
>not crucial) turning point somewhere within a century of AD 700.
>AD 300 would've worked roughly as well (with a different set of
>turning points), but late antiquity doesn't really have a good
>home for discussion elsewhere on Usenet so we went with the
>later date.
For a more detailed explanation, please see post
, available at the
above-mentioned sites.
CHARTER: soc.history.ancient
This is a news group for discussion of ancient historical cultures existing
up to circa AD 700.
Appropriate types of articles include discussions of ancient cultures,
FAQs, booklists, personal insight essays, announcements of new publications
and research, analyses of historical patterns (i.e., styles of warfare,
travel, agriculture, etc.), and reviews of current research and television
series or specials. Short, non-hype, commercial announcements of books,
seminars, etc. are also acceptable, but no more than once per month per
business.
Inappropriate types of articles include commercial advertisements posted
more frequently than once per month, unrelated to ancient history, or
including excessive length of hype; non-historical or pseudo-historical
discussions (what if, alternate history, fantasy cultures, etc.); topics
outside the date range of the news group; binary files (excluding PGP and
similar short signatures); and articles focusing on legends (except insofar
as they affected history), alternative history, and unverifiable events.
Soc.history.ancient is intended to be the first, but not the only, resource
on Usenet for the reader interested in ancient history. The newsgroup's
focus is specifically on history, preferably as it can be known from texts.
The texts in and of themselves, as literary or linguistic topics, or
non-textual remains, are secondary in interest on this newsgroup, and
there are other newsgroups where postings on these topics will often find
more informed and interested audiences.
Articles on topics for which textual evidence is scant or non-existant should
be posted to sci.archaeology.moderated or sci.archaeology. While discussions
of the Maya, the only known American culture with surviving texts from our
period, are welcome, posters should be aware that sci.archaeology.mesoamerican
is more likely to be read by informed specialists in that subject. And for
postings on topics *primarily about* Old World texts and/or languages of the
texts themselves, humanities.classics, humanities.language.sanskrit, or
sci.lang will be a better place to go.
There is no newsgroup for which discussion of ancient art is especially
on-topic. Posters are asked to judge which group is most likely to be
interested or informed on the topic of a post discussing the visual or other
non-literary arts, and to choose the appropriate newsgroup, perhaps posting
pointers in one or more other group. Pointers to binaries posted in
alt.binaries.pictures.misc or available by e-mail are encouraged.
This charter will be included in the newsgroup's first FAQ. Thereafter,
it will be changed only by formal RFD or CFV, or in accordance with the
renaming or creation of newsgroups relevant to ancient history (such as
a binaries group for maps, or an Egyptology group, for example).
This group will be unmoderated, allowing anyone with the proper access to
create or participate in message discussions.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the
process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days
(starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to
news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted
by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt
to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to
Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about
the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups, news.groups
humanities.classics, sci.archaeology
sci.archaeology.moderated, sci.classics
soc.history, soc.history.medieval
soc.history.moderated, soc.history.war.misc
This RFD has been posted to the following mailing lists:
aegeanet at acpub.duke.edu, anahita at lsv.uky.edu
ane at oi.uchicago.edu, ancien-l at ulkyvm.louisville.edu
arch-l at tamvm1.tamu.edu, aztlan at ulkyvm.louisville.edu
classics at u.washington.edu, eaan at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
earlyscience-l at listserv.vt.edu, ethnohis at nic.surfnet.nl
h-africa at msu.edu, h-asia at msu.edu
h-world at msu.edu, history at ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
histonwr at ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, indology at liverpool.ac.uk
world-l at ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
-
Proponent: First Michael Martinez
Proponent: Second Joe Bernstein
Proponent: Third Stephan Schulz
Proponent: Fourth Patrick Conway
--
Joe Bernstein, writer, bank clerk, and bookstore worker
speaking for myself alone
but... co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now under
discussion in news.groups
From joe at sfbooks.com Thu Nov 28 10:59:28 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 04:59:28 -0600
Subject: "Out of India"
Message-ID: <161227027103.23782.17639759887725971964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
sci.archaeology, sci.lang)
In article <329C4F46.467E at waterloo.border.com>,
sshankar at waterloo.border.com wrote:
>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>>
>>Does even the Beowulf mention a
>> homeland in Northern Germany? Take the Gypsies. We know that they
>> indeed came "out of India". Do their legends mention that? No, the
>> Spanish Gypsies claim to be from Egypt, which was indeed a "half-way
>> stop" they made. Recollection of the earlier Indian homeland had
>> vanished, in just 400 years.
>>
>Please refer to Vidyanath Rao's post about when the Rg Veda was
>supposed to have been composed ( "Re: lack of memory of external
>origins: Quite a few philologists
>aver that Rksamhita was composed at the time of ``invasion''.
>But Rksamhita lacks any memory of external homelands. Does this take
>400 years? 100 years? 40 years? 0 years?)
>My statement was based on the above belief that the Rg Veda was composed
>around the time of the "invasion".
While I've been clear about disagreeing with "out of India" and hence with
Mr. Shankar, I must note full agreement with this point, and I'd like to
use it as a springboard for something of a summing-up of the problem.
The full-blown "Aryan invasion" theory runs roughly as follows:
1) IVC existed c 2100-1500 BC
2) Aryans invaded 1500 BC, trampled it into dust, and promptly wrote the
Rgveda (Rksamhita)
3) Around 1000-800 BC they found out (from the west) about iron, and thus
were enabled to cut down trees in the Ganges valley, so they invaded that;
they also, around this time, wrote the Later Vedic texts
4) By 600 BC they had built cities as far east as Bihar, and the Buddha
was teaching in them
etc.
I would *hope* that anyone who's got the slightest familiarity with the
speeds at which cultures usually developed in antiquity, without massive
external pressures, would find that as deeply offensive as I did.
Well, it's also wrong, nearly in toto.
1) The IVC existed (if by that you mean the "Mature Harappan" era, the era
of the great cities) more like 2500-2100 BC
2) The Rgveda shows no signs of memories of conquering the IVC, nor of any
recent migration let alone invasion
3) Gangetic iron came from the east, and anyway there were *lots* of
villages and even cities in the Ganga valley prior to the date 800 BC,
perhaps even prior to 1000 BC
4) So although the bit about Bihar and the Buddha is pretty much true
(some people, however, e.g. George Erdosy, have actually argued for later
dates for cities) - even so, the rest is BS.
And this BS is still all too widely available from whatever source one
might care to investigate concerning ancient South Asia, if that source is
not specialised in that subject. I mean, it appalls me the extent to
which encyclopaediae and the like don't even bother to *calibrate* their
*radiocarbon dates* when it comes to this stuff!!
So it may come as a shock to realise it, but the positions actually
available to scholars simply don't include the full-blown invasion theory
any more. And few scholars adopt anything of the sort. Moin Ansari is
perfectly welcome to show up here to defend it; in the meantime, I'll note
that opinions I know of in the field actually range, these days, from a
much more moderate sort of migration theory (which sometimes though not
always puts at least some Aryans on the scene of the IVC) to the
full-blown "out of India" one. It isn't at all surprising, given the
general neglect of this topic in the West and the corresponding
perpetuation of a view which conflicts with current political trends in
our materials, that Western views are largely ignored in India; there, I'm
given to understand that even such stalwarts of the old guard as B. B. Lal
now regard the arrival of Indo-Europeans from outside South Asia as merely
a hypothesis to be proven, not a fact already demonstrated. Let me try,
in order to make this spectrum of debate somewhat clearer, to justify
(say) Mr. Lal here, although this is something of a "devil's advocate"
task.
I have been provided, to some extent via the debate on RISA-L which I
posted about to sci.archaeology.moderated as well as these two groups, a
good deal of indication that my initial assertions about evidence *for*
the I-E migration were too strong. Let's review my evidence:
1. Parpola's Dravidian version of the IVC seals
--Controversial, still
--More to the point, linguistic in character
2. Population changes in the Indus Valley
--Vidyanath Rao has consulted the article I cited (which I noted at the
time I had not read), and has described in a note to me a detailed
analysis of its contents. He finds that they do not support the
conclusion I stated (which I understood to be the authors' conclusion),
that there had been a significant population shift at Harappa between 800
BC and Mature Harappan times. I will post this note (with his permission)
momentarily.
--Hence, controversial, still. This would hardly be the first time an
analysis in this area fell down, although I won't state agreement with Mr.
Rao's views prior to reading the text myself. My point: I, at least, am
unwilling to keep relying on it until I can examine the evidence with at
least so much care.
2a. Touchy-feely cultural factors, such as grey ware (commonly assoc.
with Aryans) and ash pits (for the fire sacrifices common in Indo and
Iranian religions)
--As to grey wares, please note that the damning fact for aeons has been
the absence of a link in the relevant parts of the Punjab. (See, e.g.,
Allchins 1982.) Given that *Muslim* nationalism has quite an investment
in the Aryan invasions, I'm very surprised Pakistani archaeology hasn't
pursued such a link fiercely, but as it stands, there is a huge gap
between the PGW and the nearest grey ware to its west, despite knowledge
of a fair bunch of 2nd millennium sites in the relevant areas. Not, then,
adequately demonstrated.
--As to ash pits, well, more or less ditto.
OK. Note, now. Argument #1 is linguistic, not archaeological. Well, we
know perfectly well that the linguists are generally quite unhappy with
the idea of Sanskrit as native to South Asia (or alternatively, of
Indo-European as native to South Asia).
The howling fact remains that archaeological evidence *refuses* to line up
with the linguists' concerns.
Iron and rice came from the *east*, not the west.
The predominant material-culture features of the Gangetic civilisation
show every sign of originating (with those signal exceptions) long before
the Aryans are supposed to have gotten to the Ganga, and as often as not
*in* the Ganga valley (some seem even to come from Malwa, i.e.
Maharashtra).
Harappa is too old for the traditional invasion.
Nobody has come up with a single persuasive set of diffusion links -
archaeologically speaking - without major chronological or spatial gaps,
west to east, for the relevant periods.
So this is the gap between Mr. Shankar, who appears to support the
full-blown "out of India", IVC was Vedic, theory, and me:
He deal with this by denying that the migration (let alone invasion) happened.
I deal with it by denying that the migration mattered, except
linguistically (therefore there was no "invasion").
His position contradicts most of what we know of linguistics. Mine, as I
understand it, contradicts most of what we know (archaeologically
speaking) of language change.
And there it stands until there's enough research done in the Punjab to
give us a great deal more to work with.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, writer, banker, bookseller joe at sfbooks.com
speaking for myself alone http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/
But...co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now back under
discussion in news.groups!
From joe at sfbooks.com Thu Nov 28 11:36:39 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 05:36:39 -0600
Subject: "Out of India"
Message-ID: <161227027105.23782.17747661727272852894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
sci.archaeology, sci.lang)
In article , I wrote:
>2. Population changes in the Indus Valley
>--Vidyanath Rao has consulted the article I cited (which I noted at the
>time I had not read), and has described in a note to me a detailed
>analysis of its contents. He finds that they do not support the
>conclusion I stated (which I understood to be the authors' conclusion),
>that there had been a significant population shift at Harappa between 800
>BC and Mature Harappan times. I will post this note (with his permission)
>momentarily.
And here it follows.
Nothing between the dashed line and my .sig is me; it's all Vidyanath Rao
, who apparently had his own reasons for not
wishing to post it but did not object to its *being* posted (if I
understand correctly).
Joe Bernstein
---------------------
I finally got around to browsing the Hemphill, Lukacs and Kennedy
paper in Harappa Excavations 1986--1990. I will summarize the relevant
facts from there.
They give the results of cluster analysis and tree diagrams, as well
as principal component results for craniometric, dental non-metric and
cranial non-metric data. These three are not done on the same samples.
Cranometric:
Samples used are Harappa Cemetry 37A and 37B (Harappan phase),
Harappa Cemetry H open burials and pot/jar burials, Chatal Huyuk
(Turkey, 5000-64 BCE), Tell al-Judiadah (Palestine?, 5000-64 BCE),
Kish (2900-2800 BCE), Tepe Hissar 2 and 3 (dates given as 3500-3000
and 3000-2000 BCE, but may have to be revised), Naqada (7000-5000 BCE),
Abydos (I dynasty), Badaria (Predynasitc) [last three Egypt?],
Napalese (Modern), Tibeans (Modern), Veddahs (modern), Sedement
(9th Dynasty), Mohenjodaro, and Timagarha (1400-800 BCE).
Cluster analysis of the Prehistoric polpulations from Indus valley
alone give Mohenjodaro as the outlier, with Timagarha and R37A
closely related to each other. The relationship of others differes a
bit when sex is taken into account. but in both cases, are more
closely related to Timagarha-R37A than to Mohenjodaro.
When modern populations are added, they group together, and more closely
related to Mohenjodaro than the rest. When all samples are used,
Cemetry H (Jar burials) are closest to Chatal Huyuk, Timagarha-R37A to
Tepe Hissar, Cemetry H (open burials) to Kish, and Mohenjodaro to
Badaria. The modern populations seperate out from all the prehistoric ones.
Dental Non-metric:
Samples used are Harappa, Chalcolithic Mehrgarh (4500 BCE),
Neolithic Mehrgarh (6000 BCE), Inamgaon (1600-700 BCE), Mahadaha (8000 BCE),
Timagarha and Sarai Khola (200-100 BCE).
Timagarha and Sarai Khola are closer to each other than others,
Chalcolithic Mehrgarh and Harappa to each other, Neolithic Mehrgarh and
Inamgaon to each other and next to Ganga Valley.
Cranial Non-metric:
Samples used are Harappa, Egypt (4000 BCE), Ancient Palestine (700 BCE),
Modern Palestine, Modern Punjabi, Modern Burmese, Modern Bedouin,
Mahadaha, Lidar (2300-2000 BCE), Kamid el-Loz (500 BCE), and Sarai Khola.
Harappa is closest to Modern Palestine and then to Ancient Palestine;
this group is closest to the pair Kamid el-Loz and Lidar. The others
form the second major break-out, with further clustering as follows:
Mahadaha and Modern Punjabis pair and are closest to Modern Burmese;
this group's nearest neighbor is Sarai Khola; the next one out is
Egypt and all of the second group are closer to Modern Bedouins than
to those of the first group.
-----
I fail to see how anyone can conclude that there is a demagrphic break
in Indus Valley between 1700 BCE and 800 BCE. Timagarha is closer to
R37 than any of the three are to Mohenjodaro in craniometric analysis.
--
Joe Bernstein, writer, banker, bookseller joe at sfbooks.com
speaking for myself alone http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/
But...co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now back under
discussion in news.groups!
From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 28 05:59:45 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 05:59:45 +0000
Subject: Gold-digging ants; and soma
Message-ID: <161227027094.23782.8402967833076341882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
It may also be added tha pIlikai also refers to an ant; pIlu in Skt and Kannada
is an atom; a worm. If we look at the photographs of the
vancouver island marmots, they look like small
bears. In Tamil pIrukam, pIlukam refers to a bear.
Yes, it ispossible that the place names may have derived from
pippala, the berry of ficus religiosa, cf. R.L.Turner.
What is a thread, what is brelated and what is not?
regards. Kalyanaraman.
At 06:19 PM 11/27/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Kalyanaraman's message seems to combine several unrelated items into one.
>The place-name Pimpalner is to be understood in Sanskrit as
>Pippala-Nagara, where the first item refers to the Pippala tree, which is
>rendered as PimpaL in Marathi. Many Marathi place-names are connected
>with trees, cf. Va.dagaav, Skt. va.tagraama. Secondly, the Atharvavedic
>name Paippalaada is unrelated to Pipiilikaa, but is again related to
>Pippala + the verb atti in Sanskrit, cf. Upanishadic passage: dvaa
>supar.naa sayujaa sakhaayaa samaanam v.rk.sam pari.sasvajaate / tayor
>anya.h pippalam svaadv atty ana"snann anyo abhicaaka"siiti //
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
>On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> pipIlika has two meanings: an ant; a kind of gold supposed to be collected
>> by ants(MBh.Kannada).
>> piippalanagara is the name of a town (Jules Bloch 368); pimpalner in
>> Maharashtra.
>> pipIla refers to an ant in RV (x.16.6); is a large black ant in Chandogya
>> Upanishad.
>> pipRi is a black ant in Santali language and in almost all Indian languages
>> with slight
>> phonetic stylizations.
>> pippalADa is the name of a school in Atharva Veda. pipIlavAdam, paipIlavAdam
>> is explained in
>> Sangam tamil as: a philosophical explanation of the atom as the cause of the
>> world.
>> An important ingredient in the soma process described in the vedic texts
is the
>> earth from ant-hills.
>> I have suggested elsewhere that soma refers to electrum (gold-silver ore)
>> smelting.
>> The gold dug up by the ants could have an important bearing in this process.
>> Regards, Kalyanaraman.
>>
>> At 08:09 PM 11/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> >Some years ago I looked into the puzzle concerning the gold-digging ants,
>> >and among other things collected some entological papers on Afghan ant
>> >species. It might interest you to know that some ants make anthills out of
>> >sand and small stones, and that they carry the bigger pieces of rubble to
>> >the top of the anthill in order to catch and keep the warmth of the sun. On
>> >ground with gold particles among the sand and rubble, such particles may
>> >easily have have been put on top of the anthills. The matter has been
>> >treated in a major zoological work on ants (don't remember the name of it
>> >right now), that refers to Herodotus and sees this kind of behaviour as the
>> >basis for Herodotus' story. I suspect that it is possible that stories about
>> >gold-digging marmots and gold-digging ants have been mixed up, producing the
>> >monster ants described by Herodotus (otherwise, one would expect the Greeks
>> >to know the difference between a marmot and an ant). It seems obvious to me
>> >that animals digging and throwing up soil would tell people where gold was
>> >to be found in the ground. In other words, if marmots - or ants - bring up
>> >small nuggets of gold, all you have to do is to go on digging! (Should
>> >countries in economic trouble introduce ants and marmots to boost their
>> >economies??)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >
>> >Lars Martin Fosse
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Nov 28 06:52:28 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 06:52:28 +0000
Subject: gold-digging ants and pIlu related words
Message-ID: <161227027096.23782.8155276637412321444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Indology members,
I would appreciate comments and guidance on the following lexemes:
pIliyAr in Tamil (tEvAram. 346,10) refers to Jains.
The Tamil lexicon relates it to pIli which has
the following meanings: peacock's feather; white umbrella, peacock fan.
pIli also means GOLD.
I am told that the pIluka, pIruka referring to a bear in Tamil may be
derived from Skt. bhIruka, bhIluka from bhallUka, bear.
regards, kalyanaraman.
From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 28 14:00:51 1996
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 09:00:51 -0500
Subject: Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism
Message-ID: <161227027100.23782.5057373986891828041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Frank Conlon wrote:
>
> With reference to the query, I cannot assemble a list of works on Kashmir
> Shaivism due to other obligations, but the specific work to which the
> query is addressed is:
>
> Author: Pandita, Balajinnatha.
> Title: History of Kashmir Saivism / B.N. Pandit.
> Edition: 1st ed.
> Pub. Info.: Srinagar, Kashmir : Utpal Publications, 1989.
> Phy Descript: xxiv, 167 p. ; 22 cm.
> ISBN: 8185217017 :.
> LCCN: 89905543.
>
> Frank F. Conlon
> Professor of History
> University of Washington
> Seattle, WA 98195
> Co-editor of H-ASIA
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Catalin BUIU wrote:
>
> > Hello!
> >
> > I am trying to locate the "Encyclopaedia of Kashmir Shaivism" written by
> > B.N. Pandit. I would very much appreciate if you could let me know where
> > to find this book, the publisher , year, any other indication. Do you
> > know of other reference books on Kashmir Shaivism?
> >
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Catalin Buiu
> > Bucharest, Romania
> >
> >
From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.
E-MAIL TRANSMISSION
Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2159-96 Nov 27, 1996
To:
Members of the Indology list
Appended below is a select list of book on KASHMIR SAIVISM.
A supplementary list containing records from the older data
will follow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059. E-Mail: indbook.dka at axcess.net.in
Our Webpage http://www.dkagencies.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BOOKS IN ENGLISH
Ksemaraja, 11th cent.
[Sivasutravimarsini. English].
The Shiva-sutra-vimarsini of Ksemaraja / translated
into English by P.T. Shrinivas Iyengar. -- 2nd ed. --
Delhi, India : Sri Satguru Publications, 1994.
xviii, 87 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Sri Garib Das oriental series
; no. 174).
Translated from Sanskrit.
Originally published: Allahabad : Indian Thought, 1912,
in series: Indian thought series ; no. 2.
Commentary, with text, of the Sivasutra by Vasugupta,
an aphoristic text of Trika philosophy in Kashmir
Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references.
Includes indexes.
ISBN 81-7030-390-7
1. Vasugupta. Sivasutra. 2. Kashmir Saivism--
Doctrines--Early works to 1800. 3. Saivism--Early
works to 1800. 4. Philosophy, Hindu.
$10.00 DK-86934
---------------------------------------------------------
Padoux, Andre.
Vac : the concept of the word in selected Hindu tantras
/ Andre Padoux ; translated by Jacques Gontier. -- 1st
Indian ed. -- Delhi, India : Sri Satguru Publications,
1992.
xv, 460 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Sri Garib Dass oriental series
; no. 155).
Translated from Russian.
Reprint. Originally published: New York : State
University of New York Press, 1990.
Revision of the author's thesis (Doctoral--University
of Paris, 1964) under the title : Recherches sur la
symbolique et l'energie de la parole dans certains
textes tantriques.
Bibliography: p. 431-448.
Includes index.
ISBN 81-7030-343-5
1. Word (Linguistics). 2. Tantrism. 3. Kashmir
Saivism.
$25.00 DK-77770
---------------------------------------------------------
Pandit, B. N. (Balajin Natha), 1915-
The mirror of self-supremacy, or Svatantrya-darpana /
B.N. Pandit. -- New Delhi : Munshiram Manoharlal Pub-
lishers, 1993.
viii, 141 p. ; 23 cm.
In Sanskrit (Devanagari and roman); translation and in-
troductory matter in English.
Added t.p. in Sanskrit.
On Kashmir Saivism.
Includes index.
ISBN 81-215-0559-3
1. Kashmir Saivism.
$10.40 DK-82296
---------------------------------------------------------
Rajendra.
Spanda karika : a study : along with Sanskrit text &
vrtti of Sri Bhattakallata / Rajendra. -- 1st ed.
-- Delhi : Parimal Publications, 1994.
xii, 90 p. ; 22 cm.
Spine title: Spandakarika : a study.
Includes bibliographical references (p. [83]-90).
1. Spandakarika--Criticism, interpretation, etc. 2.
Kallata. Spanda-vrtti. 3. Kashmir Saivism--Early
works to 1800. 4. Saivism--Early works to 1800.
$8.30 DK-93652
---------------------------------------------------------
Sharma, L. N. (Lakshmi Nidhi), 1931-
Kashmir Saivism / by L.N. Sharma. -- 2nd rev. & enl.
ed. -- Delhi, India : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1996.
vi, 373 p. ; 22 cm.
Originally published: 1st ed. 1972.
Revision of the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Banaras Hindu
University, 1960) under the title: Aspects of Kashmir
Saivism in relation to Advaita Vedanta.
Includes bibliographical references (p. [369]-370).
Includes index.
ISBN 81-217-0111-2
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Saivism. 3. Advaita. 4.
Vedanta.
$33.30 DK-99131
---------------------------------------------------------
Spandakarika. English.
The stanzas on vibration : the Spandakarika with four
commentaries, the Spanda-Samdoha by Ksemaraja, the
Spandavrtti by Kallatabhatta, the Spandavivrti by
Rajanaka Rama, the Spandapradipika by Bhagavadut-
pala / translated with an introduction and exposition
by Mark S.G. Dyczkowski. -- 1st Indian ed. -- Varanasi,
India : Dilip Kumar Publisher, 1994.
xix, 427 p. ; 25 cm.
Translated from Sanskrit.
Originally published: State University of New York
Press.
Kashmiri Saiva text.
ISBN 81-86117-01-6
1. Kashmir Saivism--Early works to 1800. 2.
Saivism--Early works to 1800. 3. Spandakarika--
Commentaries.
$50.00 DK-87270
---------------------------------------------------------
Tantras. Rudrayamalatantra. Bhavaninamasahasrastutih.
English & Sanskrit. Bhavaninamasahasrastutih = The thousand
names of Bhavani : a page from Rudrayamala Tantra / English
translation & commentary by Jankinath Kaul `Kamal'. --
1st ed. -- Srinagar, Kashmir : Sri Ramakrishna Ashrama,
1991.
xxv, 501 p., [3] leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm.
In Sanskrit; translation, commentary, and introductory
matter in English.
Cover title: Bhavani name sahasra stutih.
Glorifying thousand names of Sakti, Hindu deity.
Includes index.
1. Sakti (Hindu deity)--Hymns. 2. Shaktism. 3.
Kashmir Saivism.
$5.30 (ubd.) DK-81045
---------------------------------------------------------
Vasugupta.
[Sivasutra. English & Sanskrit].
Siva sutras : the yoga of supreme identity : text of
the sutras and the commentary Vimarsini of Ksemaraya
translated into English with introduction, notes,
running exposition, glossary and index / Jaideva
Singh. -- Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1995.
xlvi, 278 p., 3 p. of plates : ill. ; 23 cm.
In Sanskrit; translation, notes, exposition and intro-
ductory matter in English.
Running title: Siva sutram.
Originally published: 1st ed. 1979.
Aphoristic work on the basic tenets of the Trika school
of Saivism in Kashmir; includes a tenth century
commentary.
Includes indexes.
ISBN 81-208-0406-6
ISBN 81-208-0407-4 (pbk.)
1. Vasugupta. Sivasutra. 2. Siva (Hindu deity). 3.
Kashmir Saivism. 4. Philosophy, Hindu.
$14.60 DK-96552
=========================================================
=========================================================
BOOKS IN SANSKRIT
Abhinavagupta, Rajanaka.
[Paramarthasara. Hindi & Sanskrit].
Paramarthasara / Abhinavagupta pranita ; satika
anuvada evam satippana adhyayana Kamala Dvivedi ;
prakkathana Ramacandra Dvivedi. -- Dilli :
Motilala Banarasidasa, 1994.
52, 130 p. ; 22 cm.
In Sanskrit; translation and prefatory matter in Hindi.
Originally published: 1. samskarana. 1984.
Classical work presenting the Trika school of Kashmir
Saivism in Hindu philosophy ; includes commentary.
Includes bibliographical references (p. [123]-130).
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Philosophy, Hindu.
$3.20 (ubd.) DKS-4740
---------------------------------------------------------
Abhinavagupta, Rajanaka .
[Tantraloka].
Sri Tantraloka / racanakara Acarya Abhinavagupta
; bhasatika, Svami Lakshmanaju. -- 1. samskarana. --
Nisata, Srinagara : Isvara-Asrama Trasta ; Nai Dilli : Pustaka
praptisthana, Isvara Asrama Trasta, 1995.
17 p. ; [1] p. of plates : col. ill. ; 21 x 33 cm.
In Sanskrit; commentary and prefatory matter in Hindi.
Verse work on the Trika philosophy in Kashmir Sivaism,
with Hindi commentary; reproduction of the commentary's
mss.
1. Tantrism. 2. Kashmir Saivism. 3. Philosophy, Indic.
$1.70 (ubd.) DKS-5174
---------------------------------------------------------
Abhinavagupta, Rajanaka.
[Tantraloka].
Sritantralokah / Srimadabhinavaguptapadaca-
ryaviracitah ; Jayarathakrtaya "Viveka" vyakhyaya ;
Paramahamsamisrakrtena "Niraksiraviveka"-
Hindibhasyena ; Vidyanivasamisraprarocanaya ca
samalankrtah ; sampadakah Paramahamsamisrah
"Hamsah." -- 1. samskaranam. -- Varanasi :
Sampurnananda-SaDmskrta-Visvavidyalayasya, 1992-
v. ; 22 cm. -- (Yogatantra-granthamala ; 17).
In Sanskrit; commentary and introductory matter in
Hindi.
Added t.p. in English.
Vol. 2 has: Venkatacalasya "Sivasankalpa"-
purovaca ca puraskrtah.
Verse work with classical commentary on the Trika
philosophy in Kashmir Sivaism.
Includes indexes.
Vol. 1 (30,600 p.), 1992 ; Vol. 2 (5, 43, 588 p.), 1993
to be complete in 8 v.
1. Tantrism. 2. Kashmir Saivism. 3. Philosophy, Indic.
$10.30 (v.1) ; $11.00 (v. 2) DKS-3890
---------------------------------------------------------
Bhagavadgita.
Srimadbhagavadgita : Srimahamahesvaracaryavarya-
rajanakabhinavaguptapadapranitagitarthasangrahabhi-
khyavyakhyopeta / Rajanakalaksmanabrahmacarina
sangrhya samsodhanaparyarikana-Vivaranadisamskaranottaram.
-- Srinagare : Kasmira Pratapa Stema Presa Mudranalaye, 1993.
7, 186 p. ; 23 cm.
In Sanskrit; prefatory matter in English.
Title on added t.p. in English: Srimad Bhagavad Gita.
Hindu philosophical classic, with commentary of
Rajanaka Abhinavagupta, exponent of Kashmiri Saivism.
1. Philosophy, Hindu. 2. Kashmir Saivism. 3. Bhaga-
vadgita--Commentaries.
$5.00 DKS-5155
---------------------------------------------------------
Bhaskarabhatta, 10th/11th cent.
Sivasutravarttikam : Srivasuguptakrtanam Sivasutranam
slokatmakam Varttikam / Bhattabhaska-racaryaviracitam ;
parisiste ca ajnatakartrkaya Sivasutravrttya ; Srikal-
latacaryaviracitavrttyupetabhih spandakarikabhisca
samupetam; Srijagadisacandracatto-padhyayena samsodhitam. --
Dillinagaryam : Sarada-Pablising-Hausa, 1993.
204 p. in various pagings ; 23 cm.
In Sanskrit; pref. in English.
Cover title: The Sivasutravarttika of Bhatta Bhaskaracarya.
Added t.p. in English.
Originally published: 1916. (Kashmir series of texts and
studies; 4-5). With new introd. by Satkari Mukhopadhyaya.
Verse exposition, with text, of Sivasutra by Vasugupta,
basic work of the Trika school in Kashmir Saivism;
includes some other classical works of the school.
Includes bibliographical references.
Includes index.
1. Kashmir Saivism--Doctrines--Early works to 1800.
2. Philosophy, Hindu. 3. Vasugupta. Sivasutra--
Commentaries. 4. Sivaism.
$15.00 DKS-4375
---------------------------------------------------------
Candrasekhara Sivacarya, 1950-
Saktivisistadvaitatattvatrayavimarsah / Candrasekharasiva-
caryamahasvamina viracitah. -- 1. samskaranam. -- Varanasi :
Saivabharati-Sodha-pratisthanam, 1996.
14, 383 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Sodhaprakasanagranthamala ; 8).
Added t.p. in English.
Originally presented as the author's thesis (D. Litt.
-- Sampurnanand Sanskrit University, Varanasi).
Comprehensive work on Saktivisistadvaitavedanta,
philosophy of the Lingayats. and Kashmir Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references (p. [375]-379).
Includes index.
ISBN 81-86768-13-0
1. Saktivisistadvaitavedanta. 2. Lingayats. 3.
Kashmir Saivism.
$25.00 DKS-5350
---------------------------------------------------------
Dvivedi, Ramacandra, 1934-
Trikadarsanam / Ramacandradvivedi ; Vidyanivasamisra-
prarocanaya samalankrtam. -- 1. samskaranam. --
Varanasyam : Sampurnananda Samskrtavisvavidyalaye , 1992.
4, 73 p. ; 25 cm. -- (Acaryabadarinathasuklasmrti-
granthamala ; 2. puspam).
Added t.p. in English.
On the Trika philosophy of Kashmir Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references (p. [67]-73).
Includes index.
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Philosophy, Hindu. 3.
Saivism.
$8.30 DKS-4461
---------------------------------------------------------
Gurutu, Nilakantha.
Parapravesika : Acarya Ksemaraja racita / pravacana-kara
Nilakantha Gurutu ; Hindi rupantarakara, Makhana-lala Kukilu.
-- 1. samskarana. -- Srinagara, Kasmira, Isvara Asrama
Trasta, 1996.
iv, 36 p. ; 18 cm.
Discourses in Hindi, with excerpts of texts in Sanskrit.
Hindi translation of discourses in Kashmiri on
Parapra vesika by Ksemaraja, 11th cent., Fundamentals
of Kashmir Saivism.
1. Ksemaraja, 11th cent. Parapravesika. 2. Kashmir
Saivism--Doctrines. 3. Philosophy, Hindu.
$1.30 (ubd.) DKS-5157
---------------------------------------------------------
Jha, Ramesvara, Acarya .
Sri Sarika Devi carcastavah / Ramesvaracarya viracitah ;
sampadika Prabha Devi ; Hindi rupantarakara Makhana-lala
Kukilu. -- Dilli : Sarika Pablisinga; Jammu : Pustaka
prapti sthana, Isvara Asrama, [1994?].
15, 26 p., [1] leaf of plates : col. ill. ; 22 cm.
Poem.
In Sanskrit; translation in Hindi; prefatory matter in
Hindi and English.
Laudatory poem on Sarika Devi, 1913-1991, Kashmir
Saivite leader.
1. Sarika Devi, 1913-1991--Poetry. 2. Kashmir
Saivism. 3. Laudatory poetry, Sanskrit.
$2.00 DKS-5165
---------------------------------------------------------
Kaula, Janakinatha.
Sivasutra-vimarsa : Kasmira Saivadarsana ke adya Acarya
Sri Vasugupta ke Sivasutrom ki navinatama Hindi vyakhya /
asirvada Srisvami Laksmanaju ; vyakhyakara Janakinatha
Kaula "Kamala." -- 1. samskarana. -- Dilli : Motilala
Banarasidasa, 1984.
17, 80, 2 p. ; 22 cm.
Hindi and Sanskrit.
Commentary, with text, of the Sivasutra by Vasugupta,
an aphoristic text of Trika philosophy in Kashmir
Saivism.
"Errata": 2 p. inserted.
Includes index.
1. Vasugupta. Sivasutra. 2. Kashmir Saivism--Doctrines--
Early works to 1800.
$2.90 (ubd.) DKS-5354
---------------------------------------------------------
Ksemaraja, 11th cent.
Sivasutravimarsini : Srivasuguptakrtanam
Sivasutranam vyakhya / Ksemarajavinirmita ;
Jagadisacattopadhyayena samsodhita. --
Dillinagaryam : Sarada-Pablising-Hausa, 1993.
v, 9, 8, 210 p. ; 22 cm.
In Sanskrit; prefatory matter in English.
Cover title: The Sivasutravimarsini of Ksemaraja.
Originally published: 1911. (Kashmir series of texts
and studies ; v. 1). With new introd. in Sanskrit by
Satkari Mukhopadhyaya.
Commentary, with text, of the Sivasutra by Vasugupta,
an aphoristic text of Trika philosophy in Kashmir
Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references.
Includes index.
ISBN 81-85616-13-2
1. Kashmir Saivism--Doctrines--Early works to 1800.
2. Vasugupta. Sivasutra--Commentaries. 3. Philosophy,
Hindu. 4. Sivaism.
$16.70 DKS-4373
---------------------------------------------------------
Kukilu, Makhanalala.
Devi Srisarika astottarasata namavali /
Makhanalala Kukilu ; paramarsa, Nilakantha
Gurutu. -- Kasmira : Isvara Asrama, [1996?].
16 p. ; 15 cm.
Poem.
Laudatory poem on Sarika Dui, 1913-1991, Saivite
from Kashmir.
1. Sarika Devi, 1913-1991--Poetry. 2. Saivism.
3. Kashmir Saivism. 4. Laudatory poetry, Sanskrit.
$1.00 (ubd.) DKS-5160
---------------------------------------------------------
Laksmanaji, 1907-1991.
[Lectures on practice and discipline in Kashmir
Shaivism. Hindi].
Kasmira Saivadarsana mem sadhana aura yamaniyama /
pravakta Isvarasvarupa Laksmanaji Maharaja ; bhasanu-
vadaka Makhanalala Kukilu. -- 1. samskarana. -- Nisata,
Kasmira : Isvaraasrama Trasta, 1994.
50 p. ; 22 cm.
In Sanskrit; translation and pref. in Hindi.
Discources on yoga and meditation in Kashmir Saivism.
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Philosophy, Hindu. 3. Yoga.
4. Meditation--Hinduism.
$1.40 (ubd.) DKS-5353
---------------------------------------------------------
Laksmanaji, 1907-1991.
[Amrtesvara-Bhairava mahimnastotra. Hindi &
Sanskrit].
Sri Amrtesvara-Bhairava mahimnastotram / sampa-
daka Laksmanaji Maharaja ; Hindi rupantarakara
Makhanalala Kukilu. -- 1. samskarana. -- Kasmira
: Isvara Asrama Trasta, 1993.
23 p. ; 22 cm.
In Sanskrit; translation and pre. in Hindi.
Hymns to Bhairava, Hindu deity, in Kashmir Saivism.
1. Bhairava (Hindu deity)--Prayer-books and devotions
--Sanskrit. 2. Hindu hymns, Sanskrit. 3. Kashmir
Saivism.
$1.30 (ubd.) DKS-5166
---------------------------------------------------------
Spandakarika.
Spandakarika : Pancabhih tikabhih samalankrta :
vrttih Sribhattakallatasya ; vrttih Sriramakanthacaryasya ;
Spandanirnayah Sriksemarajasya ; Spandaranjani Sri-
krsnanandasagarasya ; Spandapradipika Srimadutpalacarya
(parisiste) / Vasuguptakrta ; Krsnanandasagarena bhumikaya
saha sampadya. -- 1st ed. -- Dharmaja, Dist. Keda, Gujarat :
Acharya Krishnanand Sagar ; Varanasi : Copies can be had
from Om Prakash Saraf, 1984.
11, 139 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Srisivo' hamsagara-
granthamalayah pancamam puspam).
In Sanskrit; introduction in Hindi.
Title on added t.p.: Shri Vasugupta's spandakarika.
Variously attributed to Vasugupta and Kallata.
Verse exposition, with commentaries, on Sivasutra,
basic work on the Trika philosophy in Kashmir Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references.
1. Vasugupta. Sivasutra. 1984. 2. Kashmir Saivism.
3. Philosophy, Hindu. 4. Spandakarika--Criticism,
interpretation, etc.
$20.80 DKS-4216
---------------------------------------------------------
Tantras. Ajitatantra.
Ajitagama / edition critique par N.R. Bhatt. --
Pondichery : Institut francais d'indologie, 1964-1991.
3 v. : ill. ; 25 cm. -- (Publications de L'institut
francais d'indologie ; no. 24).
In Sanskrit; introd. and notes in French.
Vol. 3 has title: Ajitagamah.
Vol. 3 has imprint: Institut Francais de Pondichery.
Saiva-agama text of the Trika school.
Includes bibliographical references.
Includes indexes.
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Tantrism. 3. Philosophy,
Hindu. 4. Yoga.
$125.00 per set. DKS-4421
---------------------------------------------------------
Tantras. Kaulatantra. MatsyendrasaDmhita.
Matsyendra samhita / ascribed to Matsyendranatha ;
edited by Debabrata Sensharma. -- Calcutta : The
Asiatic Society, 1994-
v. ; 22 cm. -- (Bibliotheca Indica series ; no.
318).
In Sanskrit; summary and introductory matter in
English.
Caption title: Matsyendrasamhita.
Basic tantra work of the Kaula school in Kashmir
Saivism.
Includes bibliographical references.
Vol. 1 (vii, 65, 137 p.) rec'd now.
1. Kashmir Saivism. 2. Tantrism. 3. Yoga.
$12.50 (v. 1) DKS-4818
---------------------------------------------------------
Tantras. Rudrayamalatantra. Paratrimsika.
Paratrimsika : Laghuvrttih (anuttaravimarsini) Srimad-
abhinavaguptapadacaryasya ; vivrttih (vrhati) Srimadabhi-
navaguptapadacaryasya ; laghuvivrttih (lasaki) Srirajanaka-
laksmiramasya ; trikaranjani Srimadacarya-krsnananda-
sagarasya / Krsnanandasagarena bhumikaya saha sampadya
prakasita. -- 1st ed. -- Varanasi, U. P. : Acharya
Krishnanand Sagar, 1987.
4, 178 p. ; 21 cm. -- (Srimadhavanandagranthamalaya
caturdasam puspam).
Hindi and Sanskrit.
Title on added t.p.: Shri Rudrayamal Tantram's
Paratrinshika.
Work on Trika philosophy of Kashmir saivism; includes
commentaries in Hindi and Sanskrit.
1. Tantrism. 2. Kashmir Saivism. 3. Philosophy,
Hindu. 4. Tantras. Rudrayamalatantra.
Paratrimsika--Criticism, interpretation, etc.
$12.50 (ubd.) DKS-4226
=========================================================
=========================================================
From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Thu Nov 28 18:44:49 1996
From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 12:44:49 -0600
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027113.23782.7283566947784736179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The opposition to Hindi in the South is not limited only to 'DMK-type
politicos who use that as a vote-generating issue', and its not just old
stuff. I've spent most of my life in Tamil Nadu and always felt that
people generally didn't want a language *imposed* on them for *any*
political reason. They use whatever language is most convenient, and it
just happens that there isn't much reason to know Hindi in Tamil Nadu,
while there's *lots* of reason to know English and Tamil. So people who
like watching films on TV pick up some Hindi through TV, and some people
learn it if they plan to go North for jobs, but not many learn it
otherwise. (Also, English speaking children in Tamil Nadu who are not
fluent in Tamil sometimes choose Hindi for their second language school
requirement, because they see it as 'easier' to learn.).
I taught for a year in an English medium school in Gudalur (Tamil Nadu)
where the students were all Malayalam and Tamil mother tongue speakers,
and struggled to learn enough English to do well in the 10th grade exam.
The school offered both Hindi and Tamil for the second language
requirement, but *nobody* chose to study Hindi -- yet they were willing to
struggle to learn English!
It isn't true (in my experience) that Hindi/Urdu is generally better
understood than English in the south.
Gail Coelho
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Cyber Maadhva Sangha wrote:
> > Thank you for making this point, which confirms my own experience. This
> > again means that Hindi as a link language is rather superfluous, and
> > that (as language activists in the south argue) the time and other
> > resources which are spent in India on Hindi education would be spent
> > much better in improving both English and mother-tongue education.
>
> Btw, who are these "language activists in the south"? The only
> opposition to Hindi in the South is in Tamil Nadu, and that too only
> from the DMK-type politicos who use that as a vote-generating issue.
> And the bulk of the anti-Hindi agitation was before I was born. I
> submit to you that there is no significant opposition to Hindi
> elsewhere, and that in fact Hindi/Urdu are better understood in other
> places in the South like Karnataka, than English.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shrisha Rao
>
> > RZ.-
>
> http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
>
>
From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu Nov 28 13:13:17 1996
From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 13:13:17 +0000
Subject: "Out of India"
Message-ID: <161227027106.23782.18094785468061148619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hi,
>They give the results of cluster analysis and tree diagrams, as well
>as principal component results for craniometric, dental non-metric and
>cranial non-metric data. These three are not done on the same samples.
I gather from the above that some kind of principal component analysis has been
done on the skulls and teeth of some fossils. Could anyone please tell us what
went into the analysis exactly (what are the axes)?
Also, I would be grateful if the mechanisms of 'cluster analysis and tree
diagrams' were explained in everyday language, please. I think the courses in
Indology don't include statistical techniques yet! :-)
>I fail to see how anyone can conclude that there is a demagrphic break
>in Indus Valley between 1700 BCE and 800 BCE. Timagarha is closer to
>R37 than any of the three are to Mohenjodaro in craniometric analysis.
Then only can the above assertion be examined.
Thanks beforehand for your suggestions.
Bye,
Girish Beeharry
From dvaita at eskimo.com Thu Nov 28 22:41:43 1996
From: dvaita at eskimo.com (Cyber Maadhva Sangha)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 14:41:43 -0800
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027116.23782.2078056087698251658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> The opposition to Hindi in the South is not limited only to 'DMK-type
> politicos who use that as a vote-generating issue', and its not just old
> stuff. I've spent most of my life in Tamil Nadu and always felt that
> people generally didn't want a language *imposed* on them for *any*
> political reason. They use whatever language is most convenient, and it
> just happens that there isn't much reason to know Hindi in Tamil Nadu,
-- etc.
However, it is a fact that you can speak *only* of Tamil Nadu, even in
saying what you say (which I do not unconditionally accept). My point
is that it is *at least as wrong* for the anti-Hindi types to
generalize Hindi opposition to all of South India when such is in fact
a specialty of Tamil Nadu, as it is for some Northerners to simply
generalize Hindi as the language of all of India. Thus, saying that
Hindi is not an all-India language because the South opposes it, is
itself a flawed argument.
Tamil Nadu is a linguistically homogenous state to a much greater
extent than other states of the South are; Karnataka for instance
indigenously has Kannada, Tulu, and Konkani, all with their own
scripts even, and then there's a massive presence of Urdu, made all
the more permanent by the historical influence of Tipu Sultan, et al.
Thus it is that the Tamil people are much more liable than their
neighbors to overreact, see "linguistic imposition," etc., because
they have a narrower world-view linguistically. However, this should
not be misread as general opposition to Hindi in the South -- it is
only the manifestation of the cultural and linguistic sensitivities
(accentuated by politicians past and present) of the Tamil people.
And I will say that while there may not be much caring for Hindi in
Tamil Nadu, there is no grassroots movement against Hindi as such,
except for the occasional politician mouthing off. You have not said
anything to indicate otherwise, even.
> It isn't true (in my experience) that Hindi/Urdu is generally better
> understood than English in the south.
That's 'cause you probably haven't seen much, if any, of it outside
Tamil Nadu. Look at Hyderabad, Raichur, Gulbarga, Belgaum, etc.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> Gail Coelho
http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Nov 29 00:45:09 1996
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 16:45:09 -0800
Subject: Summer Skt, summer mythology
Message-ID: <161227027120.23782.9558840783803192121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
As in Summer 1996, a guaranteed Summer Sanskrit course -- that is,
a course not dependent on attracting the enrolment that Summer school
directors consider necessary to make the course pay for itself -- will be
offered at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada during the
6 weeks between 7 July and 15 August , 1997 (the course final examination
will take place on Saturday,16 August, morning).
International students should apply to UBC for admission by 28
February 1997. The documentation in support of their application should be
received by 15 April 1997.
Applications from others should be received by 15 April. The
documentation deadline for them is 15 June.
Those students who are already registered at other universities
should send their applications to the attention of Associate Registrar,
Admissions, Registrar's Office, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
V6T 1Z1 , with the clarification "applying in the Visitor category" written
prominently on the application and the envelope. The documentation in their
case includes a letter of permission from the home university to take a
specific course, an official transcript and a filled-out application form.
Students coming out of highschools etc. and joining the university
for the first time may need to meet different admission requirements and
submit a different kind of documentation.
For Summer Session calendar and application forms, write to the
Registrar's Office, Rm. 2016 - 1874 East Mall, Brock Hall, U.B.C.,
Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z1.
The fee for the course (subject to Board of Governors approval)
will approximately be Canadian $459 for Canadian citizens and permanent
residents of Canada and 2.5 times this amount for international students
(C$1147.50 = approximately US $825.00).
The official designation of the course is "Introductory Sanskrit"
OR "Sanskrit 102 (951)." [The last number is attached when the course is
given outside the regular Winter Session period.] It will count for 6
credits at the University of British Columbia. It will meet for three hours
every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday from 9:A.M. to noon between 7
July - 15 August.
Wednesdays have been left free for students to be able to review
and consolidate what they learn on the other days.
Depending on student interest and instructor convenience, afternoon
sessions for informal language practice may also be arranged.
The description of Sanskrit 102 is as follows: "The aim is to
acquaint the student with the most common vocabulary and the most important
grammatical features of Classical Sanskrit. Any student who completes the
course should be able to proceed to reading simple works in Classical and
Epic Sanskrit. Use of language cassettes is part of the instructional
method. Students interested in linguistics, Classics, medieval and modern
Indian languages, philosophies, religions and the history of ancient and
medieval India will especially benefit from this course. No prerequisite."
Instructor: Professor Ashok Aklujkar (that is, myself, the author
of this notice)
Textbook: Ashok Aklujkar's Sanskrit: an Easy Introduction to an
Enchanting Language (4 physical volumes including grammar, workbook, and
reader, plus 5 ninety-minute cassettes). All available, inclusive of
postage, for C$70.00 for buyers in Canada and for US$70.00 for buyers
elsewhere, from Svadhyaya Publications, 5346 Opal Place, Richmond, B.C.,
Canada V7C 5B4. Tel. (country code 1, area code 604) 274-5353. Students
may purchase copies of the text from the instructor after they arrive in
Vancouver, but those who intend to begin preparation ahead of the course
commencement, may wish to order copies earlier.
For the benefit of those who do not know where Vancouver is or who
think that all of Canada is 'that extremely cold country to the north,? I
may add that Vancouver is situated in the province of British Columbia
right on the shore of the Pacific Ocean and is well known for its temperate
climate as well as year-round natural beauty. Between the beginning of June
and end of September it is especially a pleasant place to live.
Telereg will be open for registration on 13 March.
Although the course is as certain as it can be at present,
out-of-town students should contact Asian Studies (tel.: 1-604-822-3881,
fax: 1-604-822-8937, e-mail: astudies at unixg.ubc.ca) or Extra-Sessional
Studies (tel.: 1-604-822-2657) to check the up-to-date status before
travelling to Vancouver.
Accommodation: Write to the Student Housing and Conferences
Department, U.B.C., 1874 East Mall, Brock Hall, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V^T
1Z1. Tel. (1-604)-822-2811.
-------------------------------
ASIAN STUDIES 350 (951), "Mythological Literature of South Asia in
Translation,? will be taught by Dr. Vidyut Aklujkar. The dates, days,
meeting times, and other particulars of practical importance are the same
as given above.
------------------------------
A copy of the student evaluations of either course may be requested
by writing to Secretary, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of B.C.,
Vancouver, B.C., Canda V6T 1Z2: "Please send me the course evaluation for
Sanskrit 102 (951, Summer 1996) / Asia 350 (951, Summer 1996).? The same
message may be given on telephone 604-822-3881 or .
Your assistance in giving publicity to the above information on
relevant lists other than INDOLOGY and Buddhist Academic Discussion Forum
will be appreciated.
Please note that I will be away from the following address, 1
December 1996 - 12 January 1997.
Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University
of B.C.,
Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353.
Fax O:
822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca.
From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Nov 29 00:51:22 1996
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 16:51:22 -0800
Subject: My absence
Message-ID: <161227027122.23782.11120156236041910755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
To those who usually correspond with me:
Please note that I shall be away in India from 1 December 1996 - 12 January
1996. If you need to contact me, the secretaries in my department will be
able to guide you.
Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C.,
Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353.
Fax O:
822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca.
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Nov 28 18:00:30 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 19:00:30 +0100
Subject: Hindi, hindi, hindi..
Message-ID: <161227027115.23782.5208129418869543760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Robert Zydenbos,
it seems that our discussion has reached a kind of impasse, we are beginning
to repeat ourselves. It has also reached a temperature where I see little
hope of some kind of mutual understanding, and finally the debate now seems
to require more time than I have at my disposal. I therefore drop out of the
discussion.
One point, however: You imply that I try to protect my own paycheck. As a
matter of fact, I am not a Hindi scholar but a Sanskritist. I was a research
fellow at the university of Oslo until June this year and I am now not
employed by a university. I have nothing to gain personally from defending
the position of Hindi/Urdu.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
>?From 71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM 28 96 Nov EST 14:55:59
Date: 28 Nov 96 14:55:59 EST
From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: RE: public works in Ramayana
On Nov. 27, Dominique Thillaud wrote:
> In the 80th sarga of the Ayodhyakanda, Valmiki relates the building
>of a road, specially in slokas 1-10 the clearing and levelling. Many terms
>are not very clear to me, trades, objects ans actions; few examples:
> bhumiipradezajnaaH are geographers, geologists or surveyors ?
> what about the viiraNastambaaH, just weeding ?
> what are the nimnabhaagaaH, marshes or ponds (opposite to sthalaani) >?
> and then what about bandh-, kSud- and bhid- (confine, empty, drain ?) ?
> etc.
>I would like to know if exists a good reference explaining this passage in
>proper terms of civil engeenering.
>many thanks,
If you haven't done so already, I would recommend checking the translation of
the critical edition edited by Robert Goldman and published by Princeton. The
Ayodhyakanda is in the second volume of the series, translated by Sheldon
Pollock. It contains very useful annotations (including references to the
traditional commentators) and bibliography.
Swami Gitananda
Agama Research Centre
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 28 15:13:05 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:13:05 +0500
Subject: Hindi &c.
Message-ID: <161227027110.23782.6885303610407442286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to L.M. Fosse, writing to S. Kichenassamy)
lf> No, we are speaking about languages helpful to various categories
lf> of people who for some reason would like to master an Indic
lf> language: Scholars wanting to communicate with Indians who are
lf> unable to speak English (about 97% of the Indian population),
What was the title of that book? "How To Lie With Statistics"?... Are
you going to speak with 97% of the Indian population? In Hindi?
The question is not: "how many Indians do not speak English?" (what is
the criterion of that 97%, by the way?) but: "is Hindi really as useful
all over India as the Hindiwallahs arguing in INDOLOGY pretend it is?"
lf> but if you are
lf> not connected with a certain Indian region, you would want to learn
lf> the language that will get you further than the others.
Some of us who are not in the high ivory tower of 'High Hindi' studies
but who have first-hand, on-the-ground experience of speaking with
people in various parts of India (Cejka, Menon, Kichenassamy, Beeharry,
myself) have already dismissed the idea that Hindi is so useful.
A scholar who depends on Hindi when s/he works on any subject outside
the so-called 'Hindi belt' is not serious and should be laughed away.
And even within that belt, Hindi is a thing of limited value (cf.
Beeharry and myself).
lf> business men or others (even tourists!) who might want to do the
lf> same thing, or simply be able to read Indian newspapers or
lf> documents that are not written in English.
Which "newspapers and documents"? Where?
lf> I am convinced that if we are unable to offer "society" something
lf> which society thinks is "useful" (in the very limited and slightly
lf> imbecile way the word is used by politicians and business people),
Hm, I thought that it is the task of academicians and intellectuals to
eradicate imbecility, rather than to cater to it. The quality of
communication (what we have termed "intelligent conversation" etc.) _is_
a matter of concern here. If we discard the question of quality
altogether, then why should we study ANY modern Indian language? Just go
to India and speak *English*, or use your hands and feet... (And English
and hands and feet are more useful than Hindi in several parts, when it
comes to the most primitive communication with the average
man-in-the-street - maybe most of your 97%.)
lf> Since funds are limited, funders will probably ask the following
lf> questions: [...] It is easier to argue in favour of
lf> Hindi/Urdu than in favour of any other Indic language.
Aha, now we are getting to the core. Some of us are
talking about things like Indology, intercultural communication,
understanding of our fellow humans, etc. But you are in it for the
money! Why don't you begin a law firm, or go into the computer business?
(Shame on you, Lars. You could have saved us a lot of effort.)
lf> we shall not be able to preserve the values of free study and
lf> thought that we all cherish.
This is precisely not the case, as I mentioned at the beginning of this
thread. The status quo favours Hindi and little else, so the argument
does not stand.
lf> Here statistics matter. Sorry.
This has already been dealt with. It's easy to lie with statistics.
RZ.-
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 28 15:13:29 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:13:29 +0500
Subject: Hindi &c.
Message-ID: <161227027108.23782.328305231247843760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Subject: Re: Hindi etc. (in reply to L.M. Fosse)
lf> I do not see that I am making the discussion vague. But I am
lf> avoiding too specific statements,
(This is not funny any more.)
lf> Again, I feel that you are a bit emotional.
This is not substantiated.
lf> You have so far not been able to show that other Indic languages
lf> are better means of communication on a national level than Hindi.
(1) This is beside the point.
(2) Even if it were the point, you are still dodging the issue of what
"better" means.
lf> >There are no quantitative arguments that stand rational, critical
lf> >investigation:
lf>
lf> Yes there are.
Then why don't you give them? Till now, several people in this thread
have refuted the arguments that were proposed.
lf> less money will be given to Indic studies generally. Why don't you
lf> leave planet Zorc and join us earthlings?
lf> In wealthy universities, you might achieve that a special
lf> department for Dravidian studies is created. But don't bank on it
lf> these days.
So let us recapitulate. Your quantitative arguments are not tenable. We
have seen pretentious claims in this thread about cultural spread, the
usefulness of Hindi etc. which have been debunked. The minority status
of Hindi, spoken and written, has been established. Hindi offers little
historical material worth mentioning. Certain Hindi teachers (nota bene!
a case of vested interests, perhaps?) plead that we must support their
personal enterprises for the sake of "Indic studies generally", which
will supposedly benefit "the values of free study and thought"; but I
have yet to see a Hindiwallah who seriously studies, let us say, Kannada
or Assamese.
Counterarguments against mine in this thread have not been
substantiated. Instead, I have merely been called "emotional",
"impractical" and am said to be living on a science-fiction planet -
which I think is better than being an intellectual prostitute who
gleefully caters to imbecility in the business and tourism community if
that is how money can be made. (You advocated that, Lars.) And if you
seriously think that I and people like me will sacrifice intellectual
standards and join in spreading false, tall claims about Hindi (which,
by the way, does not benefit me in any way whatsoever) only in order to
protect your monthly pay check over there in Norway, then I suggest that
you should think again. Sorry, but I would prefer some more integrity in
Western academia, and I refuse to contribute to a further downfall.
I maintain that it is really very stupid to have Hindi teachers
all over the Western world and have the majority of historical and
contemporary India unrepresented. A cooperation of universities across
the European Union or the USA could perhaps tackle this shortcoming. But
would the Hindiwallahs give up their exclusively privileged position and
cooperate, or would they continue telling lies?
Have a nice day. ;-)
Robert Zydenbos.-
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 28 15:14:01 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:14:01 +0500
Subject: Hindi &c.
Message-ID: <161227027112.23782.11641274713525036437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to L.M. Fosse)
lf> If India decides to use a highly sanskritized Hindi as a link
lf> language, the inevitable consequence is the one you describe. If
lf> Hindi is to truly succeed as a link language, the first thing to do
lf> would seem to be to remove much of the Sanskrit and use the kind of
lf> language the majority of Hindi speakers speak, what usually was
lf> called Hindustani.
lf>
lf> Any opionions?
Getting the whole of India to speak de-Sanskritized Hindi is a pipe
dream of people who are unaware of what the 21st century will demand of
language. (Hey, Lars... were you not the person who accused me recently
of being out of touch with the world?) It is only on the basis of that
highly Sanskritized vocabulary that Hindi has any chance at all of
catching on outside the so-called Hindi belt, because Sanskrit is the
only indigenous all-Indian language (and this is the motivation for that
Sanskritization). Hindi as it is now is already difficult, but ".the.th
hindii" is completely incomprehensible for people in other parts. The
burden of learning the new vocabulary of such 'Hindustani' (which will
be a poor, underdeveloped language, limited to only a low 'register')
will only strengthen the position of English. Hindi speakers already are
a minority, and if this Hindustanization becomes the new norm for Hindi
competence, it will decrease their number still further.
In any case, linguistic engineering is a dubious matter. I have some
beautiful opinions of others which I wish to share with everyone. This
is Krishna Kripalani: Hindi was
"invented by the English, and first used as a vehicle of literary prose
composition in 1803." (K. Kripalani, _Literature of Modern India._ New
Delhi: National Book Trust, 1982, revised ed., p. 53.)
Also, Hindi is
"the highly laboured medium consciously cultivated by Pundits of the
Fort William College which Grierson described as 'an artificial dialect,
the mother tongue of no native-born Indian, that wonderful hybrid
language known to Europeans as Hindi and invented by them.' There is
little doubt that this medium which was primarily needed for the use of
British civil servants had literally to be manufactured" (ibid., p. 54).
The question still remains whether, except for purely sentimental,
nationalistic reasons, _any_ indigenous language should be the link
language. How large is the percentage of people who have regular
important dealings outside their home state, and what is their level of
education? Chances are that either they are English-educated, or they
learn the real language of the one neighbouring state / linguistic area
with which they have dealings. I and others have already pointed out
that Hindi is divisive. Furthermore, to quote Hermann Berger,
"The 'Hindi fanatics'... are an uncommonly clear example of how a
narrow-minded nationalism, which is born of hatefulness and a lack of
understanding, leads to the total destruction of national character
instead of to its preservation.... They want to bring a grotesque
homunculus to power, a purely intellectual Esperanto which has been put
together in imitation of English." (H. Berger, "Hochsprache und
Volkssprache in Indien," in _Jahrbuch des Suedasien-Instituts der
Universitaet Heidelberg_ 1966, pp. 32-33. My translation.)
In the same article, Berger points out how new Hindi words look
Sanskritic but are semantically English rather than Indian. This amounts
to saying that those who are constructing Hindi are, in thought, not
really Indian any more, the people whom Nirad Chaudhuri calls 'Brown
Sahibs'. They have no need for Hindi themselves, and the people who
learn their construct are learning a surrogate English. And so the words
which are recognized as Sanskritic actually offer problems to learners,
who think the words mean the same as in their mother tongue.
Opinions? :-)
Robert Zydenbos.-
From dvaita at eskimo.com Fri Nov 29 04:43:15 1996
From: dvaita at eskimo.com (Cyber Maadhva Sangha)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:43:15 -0800
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027125.23782.2086336749944353865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> > > It isn't true (in my experience) that Hindi/Urdu is generally better
> > > understood than English in the south.
> >
> > That's 'cause you probably haven't seen much, if any, of it outside
> > Tamil Nadu. Look at Hyderabad, Raichur, Gulbarga, Belgaum, etc.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Shrisha Rao
> >
>
> I've seen places outside Tamil Nadu (Mysore, Bangalore, Mangalore,
> Calicut) -- vistied the first three frequently and lived in the second --
> it isn't true in these places that Hindi/Urdu is better understood than
> English,
Well, now, Calicut is not exactly part of the area under
consideration. As for the first three (none of which I actually
mentioned), I have some assurance that your experience cannot be
representative, because I happen to come from those parts myself.
Bangalore has had, especially in the last 10-15 years, a lot of
Punjabis, Gujaratis, etc., coming in, and the native Kannada speakers
are themselves in a bit of a minority. You wouldn't get anywhere
trying to direct an auto-driver in English: most are Urdu-speaking
Muslims with less than a high-school education.
In fact, Karnataka has slightly more than the national average
percentage of Muslims, and all speak Urdu at home. I'm quite sure
there aren't as many fluent English speakers as Muslims -- this alone
proves the point. There's also even an Urdu program on tv in
Bangalore, has been for some years now.
One point to be noted is that your ability to judge how well
Hindi/Urdu are spoken and received, would be related to your own
ability to speak those languages fluently. May I ask if you do speak
them well? If not, it is but natural that people would speak to you
everywhere in English only, making your judgement questionable.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> Gail
http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Fri Nov 29 04:11:12 1996
From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 22:11:12 -0600
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027123.23782.10308504416714326911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>
> > It isn't true (in my experience) that Hindi/Urdu is generally better
> > understood than English in the south.
>
> That's 'cause you probably haven't seen much, if any, of it outside
> Tamil Nadu. Look at Hyderabad, Raichur, Gulbarga, Belgaum, etc.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shrisha Rao
>
I've seen places outside Tamil Nadu (Mysore, Bangalore, Mangalore,
Calicut) -- vistied the first three frequently and lived in the second --
it isn't true in these places that Hindi/Urdu is better understood than
English,
Gail
From das at netcom.com Fri Nov 29 06:33:15 1996
From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 22:33:15 -0800
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027127.23782.15427307082996260643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Cyber Maadhva Sangha wrote:
> However, this should not be misread as general opposition to Hindi in
> the South -- it is only the manifestation of the cultural and linguistic
> sensitivities (accentuated by politicians past and present) of the Tamil
> people.
>
> And I will say that while there may not be much caring for Hindi in
> Tamil Nadu, there is no grassroots movement against Hindi as such,
> except for the occasional politician mouthing off.
I have watched this debate go for quite a while without jumping in because
even face to face debates on this subject are usually unresolved. As
somebody who studied in both Tamil Nadu and Kerala, I can say one thing --
in lots of "private schools" in Kerala, you could take "Special English"
and "Additional English", just to avoid taking Hindi. You could also opt
to learn French to avoid Hindi. Lots and lots of my friends took that
route to escape learning Hindi. The Tamil Nadu pattern has already been
mentioned before. Also know that some of my cousins and their neighbours
speak fluent Telgu and never ever studied the Hindi alphabet.
The literacy rate in south is generally far higher than in north (some
cities in Kerala have 100% literacy rate). But the population is far
greater in the north (relatively speaking). So politicians found that
they could get more mileage (more votes) by trying to push Hindi.
Somebody mentioned auto rickshaw drivers or such. Whether you
speak Hindi/Urdu/English, my experience is that they may take you
for a "drive", unless you know the shortest route!
--
Das
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From joe at sfbooks.com Fri Nov 29 11:01:15 1996
From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 05:01:15 -0600
Subject: could anyone please send the gold-digging ant posts?
Message-ID: <161227027130.23782.15918206167835896987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I've posted to the ADABIYAT mailing list, which has a lot of Persian
specialists on it, a question about "marmot" and "ant" in ancient Persian.
One subscriber to that list asked if I'd saved the previous posts, as he
was very curious about them.
Unfortunately, I hadn't. Nor do I see them at the e-mail archive yet.
Anyone who has got them saved, and could forward them to me (or directly to
him), could you please let me know? Please DON'T just send them right off
(this list has enough people on it that I could end up with twenty copies
of everything!) But thanks if you could take the time to write and offer.
He seems to have some things to contribute himself, just doesn't want to be
uninformed about it.
Joe Bernstein
joe at sfbooks.com
From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Nov 29 05:19:24 1996
From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 05:19:24 +0000
Subject: The Gold Digging Ants of Herodotus
Message-ID: <161227027118.23782.18432892474634451568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Jason Neelis has given us a superb insight into the early references on
the marmots and adds:
>I think this debate (and the unlikely media coverage!) over the
>gold-digging ants of Herodotus reflects our fascination with the rapidly
>disappearing El Dorados and Shangri Las of this world.
Marmots are among the endangered species list. The is what the
Vancouver Islands marmot website says and suggests adoption
of marmots by websurfers to save the 'ants'.
regards, kalyanaraman
From magier at columbia.edu Fri Nov 29 15:51:09 1996
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 10:51:09 -0500
Subject: EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <161227027139.23782.7231542315690701481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or
mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of The South Asia Gopher.
Please contact event organizers directly for any furtherinformation.
Thank you. David Magier
====================
The British Encounter with Indigenous Peoples, c.1600-1850
Joint Neale and Commonwealth Fund Conference
13th-15th February 1997
A major international conference is to be held at University College
London, under the auspices of the Commonwealth Fund Colloquium in American
History and the Neale Colloquium in British History. The aim is to bring
together specialists in British North America and in the encounters with
indigenous peoples in Africa, Asia and Australasia. There will be two
keynote lectures, by Professor Philip Morgan (Florida State University)
and Professor Chris Bayly (Cambridge University), with eight panels
dealing with themes such as 'Race and Social Place: Native Peoples in
Colonial North America,' 'Cultural Encounters,' and 'Merchants, Migrants
and Missionaries: The Many Faces of Imperial Discourse'.
additional detail can be found on the World Wide Web at:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/history/future.htm
_________________________________________________________________
Thursday 13th February 1997
Registration
Thursday 13th February 1997, 4.00 p.m.
Lecture Tea
Thursday 13th February 1997, 5.00 p.m.
Commonwealth Fund Lecture in American History by Professor P. D. Morgan,
(Florida State University)
Thursday 13th February 1997, 5.30 p.m.
_________________________________________________________________
Friday 14th February 1997
Plenary Session
Friday 14th February 1997, 9.30-10.30 a.m.
Commentator: Richard Dunn (University of Pennsylvania)
Chair: Rick Halpern (UCL)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 1: Race and Social Place: native peoples in Colonial British North
America
Friday 14th February 1997, 11.00 a.m.-12.30 p.m.
a) Kathleen M. Brown, (University of Pennsylvania) `Using Native
Americans to Interrogate the Category of Race'
b) Ruth Wallis Herndon, (University of Toledo) `Racialization and
Feminization of Poverty in Early America: Indian women as "The Poor of
the Town" in eighteenth-century Rhode Island'
c) Jean O'Brien, (University of Minnesota) `"They are so Frequently
Shifting their Place of Residence": the construction of social place
for Native American people in Colonial Massachusetts'
d) Ann Marie Plane, (University of California at Santa Barbara)
`Illegitimacy, Fornication, and the Social Construction of Racial
Identities in English Encounters with Pokanokets, Narrangansetts, and
Others in Seventeenth-Century New England'
Commentator/Chair: James H. Merrell, (Vassar College)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 2: Cultural Encounters
Friday 14th February 1997, 2.00 p.m.-3.30 p.m.
a) Russell Smandych, AND Anne McGillivary, (University of Manitoba)
`Images of Aboriginal Childhood: contested governance in the Canadian
West to 1850'
b) Douglas B. Chambers, (University of Virginia) `"A Sharp Blade and a
Mighty Talking Black": cultural counters on the Calabar Coast,
1700-1860s'
c) James Gump, (University of San Diego) `The Imperialism of Cultural
Assimilation: Sir George Grey's encounter with the Maori and the
Xhosa, 1845-1861'
d) Robin Fisher, (University of Northern Columbia) `Captain George
Vancouver's encounter with indigenous peoples in the Pacific'
Commentator/Chair: Ann McGrath, (University of New South Wales)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 3: Legal Systems
Friday 14th February 1997, 3.45 p.m.-5.00 p.m.
a) Minoti Chakravarty-Kaul, (Lady Shri Ram College, New Delhi)
`Imperial and Subaltern Legal Systems'
b) Wendie E. Schneider, (Yale University) `Racism and Indian
Jurisdiction under the British: changing roles, changing stereotypes'
c) Waltraud Ernst, (University of Southampton) `Race, madness, and the
construction of rationality during the time of the East India
Company's administration in India'
d) Heather Goodall (University of Technology, Sydney) 'Indigenous
Authority and the British Crown: sources of the "Queen Victoria"
narrative in land rights demands in NSW'
Commentator/Chair: David Washbrook, (Oxford)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 4: Religious Encounters
Friday 14th February 1997, 3.45 p.m.-5.00 p.m.
a) Louise A. Breen, (Kansas State University) `Daniel Gookin and the
Perils of Intercultural Mediatorship in Colonial Massachusetts'
b) Neal Salisbury, (Smith College) `"I Loved the Place of My
Dwelling": Puritan missionaries and Native converts in
seventeenth-century southern New England'
c) Penny Carson, (Denstone College) `The Indian Response to British
Missionaries, 1780-1850' [provisional]
d) Andrew Porter, (King's College London) `North American experience
and British missionary encounters in Africa and the Pacific,
c.1800-1850'
Commentator/Chair: Nicholas Tyacke (UCL)
_________________________________________________________________
Lecture Tea
Friday 14th February 1997, 5.00 p.m.
Neale Lecture in British History by Professor C. A. Bayly, (St Catharine's
College, Cambridge)
Friday 14th February 1997, 5.30 p.m.
_________________________________________________________________
Conference Dinner (Optional)
Friday 14th February 1997, 7.00 p.m.
_________________________________________________________________
Saturday 15th February 1997
Plenary Session
Saturday 15th February 1997, 9.30 a.m.-10.30 a.m.
Commentator: Linda Colley
Chair: Peter Marshall (King's College London)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 5: British Diplomatic Encounters in the American Revolutionary Era
Saturday 15th February 1997, 11.00 a.m.-12.45 p.m.
a) Greg O'Brien, (University of Kentucky) `"I am surrounded with
enemies who are supplied ... by the English": Choctaw responses to
British-sponsored intertribal warfare, 1765-1777'
b) Nathaniel J. Sheidley, (Princeton University) `Hunters and Beloved
Men: the politics of masculinity in Cherokee treaty-making, 1763-1775'
c) Lance Grahn, (Marquette University) `Cuna-British Alliances and
Caribbean Imperial Rivalries, 1680-1800'
d) Nancy Shoemaker, (University of Wisconsin, Euau Claire)`An Alliance
Between "Men": gender metaphors in eighteenth-century English-Indian
diplomacy'
Commentator/Chair: Colin G. Calloway,
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 6: Military Encounters
Saturday 15th February 1997, 11.00 a.m.-12.45 p.m.
a) Jon W. Parmenter, (University of Michigan) `Kinship Alliance and
the Diplomacy of Pontiac's War'
b) Peter Way, (University of Sussex) 'The British and Indian War:
martial and cultural exchange between British soldiers and Native
Americans, 1755-1763.'
c) Douglas M. Peers, (University of Calgary) `A Matter of Discretion?
Discipline and Disorder in Colonial Forces in India, c.1800-1857'
d) Karni Pal Bhati, (University of Notra Dame) `James Tod and the
Rajputs: imagined community, invented tradition'
Commentator/Chair: Stephen Conway, (UCL)
_________________________________________________________________
Buffet Lunch
Saturday 15th February 1997, 1.00 p.m.-2.00 p.m.
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 7: The West Indies
Saturday 15th February 1997, 2.00 p.m.-4.00 p.m.
a) Alison Games, (Georgetown University) `"The sanctuarye of our
rebell negroes": African, English, and Indian labor and resistance on
Providence Island'
b) Carla G. Pestana, (Ohio State University) `Seductive yet
Unattainable Englishness in the Seventeenth-Century West Indies'
c) Hilary Beckles, (University of the West Indies) `The Genocide
Policy in English-Kalinago [Carib] relations in the 17th century'
d) Barbara Bush, (Stafordshire University) '"She Devil" or "Sable
Venus" British Slavery and the "Fabulous Fiction" of Black Women's
Identities, c.1650-1850'
e) Catherine Hall, (University of Essex) `William Knibb'
Commentator/Chair: Gad Heuman, (University of Warwick)
_________________________________________________________________
Panel 8: Of Merchants, Migrants and Missionaries: the many faces of Imperial
discourse
Saturday 15th February 1997, 2.00 p.m.-4.00 p.m.
a) Antoinette Burton, (Johns Hopkins University) `The Grand Old Man of
India: Dadhabai Naoroji and the making of Indian nationalism in
mid-Victorian London'.
b) Madhavi Kale, (Bryn Maw College) `"When the Saints Come Marching
In": the Anti-Slavery Society and Indian indentured migration to the
British Caribbean, 1838-1860'
c) Pamela Scully, (Kenyon College) `Metropolitan Visions of the
"Primitive": missionary writings, travel literature and the Khoisan'
d) Robin E. Close, (St Catherine's College, Cambridge) `Form and
Conversation: representation of the Amerindian and the Khoi by the
early missionary movement in Britain'
e) Ken Coates, (University of Waikato) `Explaining the Inexplicable:
British Attempts to Understand Inuit Life and Culture in the Arctic'
Commentator/Chair: Doug Stuart
_________________________________________________________________
Summing up
Saturday 15th February 1997, 4.00 p.m.-5.00 p.m.
Shula Marks, (SOAS)
_________________________________________________________________
Reception
Saturday 15th February 1997, 5.00 p.m..
_________________________________________________________________
From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Nov 29 08:13:51 1996
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 11:13:51 +0300
Subject: Hindi &c.
Message-ID: <161227027129.23782.11286196049871958907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
In reply to Zydenbos' reply to Fosse:
>Getting the whole of India to speak de-Sanskritized Hindi is a pipe
>dream of people who are unaware of what the 21st century will demand of
>language.
...certainly not the whole of India, but quite a large number of people in
India (and in Pakistan and other South Asian countries, not to mention East
Asia and Europe, are regular watchers of Zee TV, which uses
non-Sanskritized, non-Persianized Hindi-Urdu as its medium. The same style
of Hindi-Urdu is also the medium of Bollywood films. I concede that this
wierd and wonderful language form isn't written and won't get you far on a
university campus, but it is a marvellous form of global communication, and
it is happening now.
Best regards,
Ruth Schmidt
From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Fri Nov 29 23:23:01 1996
From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 13:23:01 -1000
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027150.23782.4006558341072992046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote:
> (The actual point of
> the discussion is that I am arguing that there is an unhealthy fixation
> in Western academia on Hindi as "the modern language of India" [sic -
> this has actually been written here], with Hindi teachers in the
> Western Indological world institutionally overrepresenting that
> minority language while the majority of historical and contemporary
> India is ignored, irrespective of relative merits in that majority.)
You keep calling Hindi a "minority language" --
which it is (like every other language in
India). But let's beam back to Planet Earth
and look at some numbers:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Population of India (approx) -- 900 million
Population of "Hindi belt" (approx)
(UP+Bihar+MP+Rajasthan+Haryana+HP) -- 280 million
Subtract non-Hindi-speakers, esp. in
Bihar and MP -- - 40 million
Add Hindi-speakers in other parts
of India -- + 50 million (at least)
TOTAL Hindi-speakers 290 million (approx)
%ge of Hindi-speakers in Indian pop. ~~ 33%
Next largest language group in India
(probably Bengali?) ~~ 70 million (approx)
Add Bangladesh ~~ 120 million (approx)
%ge of Bengali-speakers in India ~~ 8%
%ge of Bengali-speakers in subcontinent ~~ 16%
%ge of Telugu-speakers in India ~~ 7%
%ge of Kannada-speakers in India ~~ 6%
%ge of Tamil-speakers in India ~~ 6% (MY LANGUAGE!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
All numbers are approximate (based on my guesstimates),
but close to reality.
Hmmm... seen in this way (33% Hindi-speakers, as
compared with 8% for the next-largest language group
in India), I can easily understand that many foreigners,
if they could pick only one modern Indian language,
would pick Hindi.
Regards,
Raja.
PS: Stay cool, don't get excited. Learning Hindi is not evil.
PPS: I'm a Tamilian, myself.
From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Fri Nov 29 20:23:57 1996
From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 14:23:57 -0600
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027143.23782.16195162868557252535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Cyber Maadhva Sangha wrote:
> Well, now, Calicut is not exactly part of the area under
> consideration. As for the first three (none of which I actually
> mentioned), I have some assurance that your experience cannot be
> representative, because I happen to come from those parts myself.
> Bangalore has had, especially in the last 10-15 years, a lot of
> Punjabis, Gujaratis, etc., coming in, and the native Kannada speakers
> are themselves in a bit of a minority. You wouldn't get anywhere
> trying to direct an auto-driver in English: most are Urdu-speaking
> Muslims with less than a high-school education.
Auto-drivers would, of course, know Hindi since they have to talk to all
those incoming northerners who need rides from the railway station, etc. But
what about others in Bangalore? -- shopkeepers, clerks, etc? I still
don't believe that Hindi is better understood than English.
> In fact,
Karnataka has slightly more than the national average
> percentage of Muslims, and all speak Urdu at home.
That means little more than 10% -- not a very big percentage. On the
other hand for English, there are people who speak English fluently and
use it extensively at home plus a large number who use it as their second
language and who go to English medium schools.
I'm quite sure
> there aren't as many fluent English speakers as Muslims -- this alone
> proves the point. There's also even an Urdu program on tv in
> Bangalore, has been for some years now.
Remember that Bangalore has a large number of AngloIndians and Mangalore
Christians who speak English fluently *and* speak it at home. I don't
know what the percentage is, though.
> > One point to be noted is that
your ability to judge how
well > Hindi/Urdu are spoken and received, would be related to your own
> ability to speak those languages fluently. May I ask if you do speak
> them well? If not, it is but natural that people would speak to you
> everywhere in English only, making your judgement questionable.
The same is true of Hindi -- if you're in the habit of initiating
conversation in Hindi, then those who speak it will reply in Hindi if
they know that language. That's the problem with basing these
observations on personal experience -- much depends on your own role as a
controlling factor in these experiences. The same goes for my personal
experiences, so what we need is information from empirical research on
attitudes, usage etc.
At this point, let's just agree to disagree.
Gail
From Mm1008 at aol.com Fri Nov 29 19:51:02 1996
From: Mm1008 at aol.com (Mm1008 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 14:51:02 -0500
Subject: Gold
Message-ID: <161227027142.23782.1984112511275442380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
The December '96 issue of National Geographic includes a half-page article on
African termites whose mounds in Nigeria have guided gold-digging geologists.
It refers to "tales that ancient African civilizations used mounds to locate
gold deposits." The accompanying cartoon thanks the termite miners "for not
chewing on beams." A far-reaching tale it seems!
Mary Meredith
From gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Fri Nov 29 15:02:48 1996
From: gabriele.zeller at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Gabriele Zeller)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 15:02:48 +0000
Subject: could anyone please send the gold-digging ant posts?
Message-ID: <161227027132.23782.12560544774391979165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Anyone who has got them saved, and could forward them to me (or directly to
him), could you please let me know?
I saved them and coudl forward them to you.
Gabriele Zeller
----------------------------------------------------------
Dr Gabriele Zeller
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
72016 Tuebingen
Tel:+49-7071-2974030
Fax:+49-7071-293123
----------------------------------------------------------
From thillaud at unice.fr Fri Nov 29 15:09:43 1996
From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 16:09:43 +0100
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027137.23782.9995649370579090972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
>If you haven't done so already, I would recommend checking the translation of
>the critical edition edited by Robert Goldman and published by Princeton. The
>Ayodhyakanda is in the second volume of the series, translated by Sheldon
>Pollock. It contains very useful annotations (including references to the
>traditional commentators) and bibliography.
>
>Swami Gitananda
>Agama Research Centre
very well and I thank you about.
I've just a little problem more.
My university is very young and his library very poor. The sanskrit shelter
is one meter long (including Boeckling-Roth).
Do you know a good bookshop specialized in sanskrit, preferably in Europa
and with e-mail or http facilities, where to order books, specially this
exciting edition of the Ramayana.
namaste,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis
email : thillaud at unice.fr
From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Fri Nov 29 23:18:45 1996
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 17:18:45 -0600
Subject: Hindi and English in Karnataka
Message-ID: <161227027148.23782.9694956040224812533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
As a long time student of Hindi with an abiding interest in power
relationships among Indians, I have skimmed this sometimes overly acrid
Hindi discussion with interest. Regardless of its utility in Tamil Nadu
and Karnataka, the Hindi language is very useful across at least the
northern trail through India from Bombay across the Deccan, in western
India and up to Uttara Kand on through Calcutta to Puri. Hindi can even
help in many instances in Nepal. That does seem to be stretching it a bit,
but there are many people who can speak better Hindi that English, though
their Hindi proficiency may not be beyond the elementary level. For
example, here are many Tibetan refugees who speak better Hindi than
English.
Though most educated Indians speak English more fluently than I speak
Hindi, there are many non-English-speaking Bharatiya log with whom I wish
to communicate, who in addition to speaking their mother tongue--be it
Marathi, Panjabi, Gugarati, Brij Bhasha, Bojpuri, Pahari, even Nepali,
Bengali and beyond-- can also carry on a basic and quite fluent
conversation in Hindi. Undoubtedly this is due in part to the influence of
Hindi movies. Because of this celluloid-factor and also fifty years of
government support, Hindi is, along with English, certainly a lingua franca
in India.
Not only in India! Many children of NRI immigrant parents here in the US
whose first language may be Kannada or Tamil or Konkin can also understand
Hindi, due to the influence of VCR viewings of Hindi movies. They are not
necessarily able to read Devanagari, however.
Robert Zydenbos wrote:
>Prof. M. Chidananda Murthy resigned from his
>professor's post in Bangalore University to be a full-time activist for
>the Kannada Sakti Kendra.
I don't know Kannada, and therefore do not know the Kannadan equivalent of
the words "Power" and "Center," but I can not help but notice that Prof.
Murthy's language activist organization, the Kannada Sakti Kendra has
ironically borrowed Hindi words, for the name of the language movement
(bhaasha andolan). Perhaps the ubiquitous use of many of these Sanskrit
derived words, found in Hindi and their cognates in many north Indian
languages, along with the large scale borrowing of Sanskrit terms into
several Dravidian languages, provides the commonality necessary to
accommodate and communicate.
Yvette C. Rosser
---+-}---+-}--+-<@
"Peace is not simply the absence of war.
It is not a passive state of being.
We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war."
@>---+-{---+-{--+---- XIV Dalai Lama
"Let us put our minds together and see what life
we will make for our children."
@>---+-{---+-{--+---- Lakota Chief Sitting Bull
From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Nov 29 23:50:05 1996
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 18:50:05 -0500
Subject: Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar
Message-ID: <161227027134.23782.15663520738007523010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.
E-MAIL TRANSMISSION
Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2176-96 Nov 29, 1996
To:
Members of the Indology list
The books listed below may be of interest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059. E-Mail: indbook.dka at axcess.net.in
Our Webpage http://www.dkagencies.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yogavasistharamayana. English.
The Yoga-vasistha Maharamayana / translated into
English by Vihari Lala Mitra. -- Rev. ed. -- Calcutta :
Published for the Sivanarayana by Prajna Publications,
1991-
v. ; 22 cm.
Translated in English from Sanskrit.
Running title: Yogavasistha.
Reprint. Originally published: The Yoga-vasishtha-
maharamayana of Valmiki. Calcutta : Vihari Lala Mitra,
1891-1899. Includes reproduction of the original t.p.
Includes bibliographical references and glossary.
Contents: v. 1. Vairagya and mumuksu prakarana. (270 p.) ;
to be complete in 4 v.
1. Philosophy, Hindu. 2. Vedanta.
$27.80 (v. 1) DK-73215
---------------------
Yogavasistharamayana. English & Sanskrit. Selections.
Yoga Vasistha-sara sangrah = Essence of Yoga
Vasistha / condensed by Swami Tejomayananda. -- 1st ed.
-- Bombay : Central Chinmaya Mission Trust, 1994.
21 p. ; 28 cm.
In Sanskrit (Devanagari and roman); translation in
English.
Running title: Yogavasistasarasamgrah.
1. Yogavasistharamayana. 2. Vedanta. 3. Advaita. 4.
Philosophy, Hindu.
$2.50 (ubd.) DK-97692
================================================================
================================================================
J. Kingston Cowart wrote:
>
> Can anyone help me locate a text about Janaka's vision of himself as a beggar?
>
> I believe it is in the Yoga Vasistha (although Venkatesandanda's Concise YV
> edition does not contain it).
>
> In the version I have heard, Janaka undergoes a sudden, momentary shift in
> consciousness during which he is not a king but a beggar--with all the
> beggar's lifetime of experiences and relationships as his own.
>
> Almost instantly, his consciousness shifts back again, whereupon he asks
> Yajnavalkya whether he is the King who dreamt of himself as a beggar or the
> beggar now dreaming of himself as a king. Yajnavalkya replies "Lord thou art
> both--and neither" (or words to that effect).
>
> This recounting may not be altogether accurate, which is why I seek the
> original text and its source.
>
> Additionally, does anyone know where I might obtain either
> 1) an English or German translation of the complete Yoga Vasistha,
> itself; and
> 2) any other available resource in either language which contains
> the material I seek?
>
> I would greatly appreciate any assistance at all.
>
> Thank you,
>
> J. Kingston Cowart
> San Diego, California
>
From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Nov 29 23:51:59 1996
From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 18:51:59 -0500
Subject: Indigo Trade in India
Message-ID: <161227027135.23782.4038691893128130353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD.
E-MAIL TRANSMISSION
Our Ref No.: EME/FI-2175-96 Nov 29, 1996
To:
Members of the Indology list
The books listed below may be of interest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898
A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899
Najafgarh Road E-mail: dka at pobox.com
New Delhi - 110 059. E-Mail: indbook.dka at axcess.net.in
Our Webpage http://www.dkagencies.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bengal (India). Indigo Commission, 1860.
Report of the Indigo Commission, 1860 / edited and
compiled by Pulin Das. -- Darjeeling : Publication
Bureau, University of North Bengal, [1992].
xxxi, 164 p. ; 23 cm.
1. Indigo industry--India--Bengal.
$12.50 DK-88931
------------------
Rao, Amiya, 1909-
The blue devil : indigo and colonial Bengal : with
an English translation of Neel darpan by Dinabandhu
Mitra / Amiya Rao and B.G. Rao. -- Delhi : Oxford
University Press, 1992.
xvi, 271 p., [8] p. of plates : ill., map ; 23 cm.
Map on lining paper.
Bibliography: p. [171]-177.
Includes glossary.
1. Revolutionary literature, Bengali--India. 2. Bengali
drama--Translations into English. 3. English drama--
Translations from Bengali.
ISBN 0-19-563090-4
$23.30 DK-78617
-----------------
Shukla, Prabhat Kumar, 1948-
Indigo and the Raj : peasant protests in Bihar, 1780-
1917 / Prabhat Kumar Shukla. -- Delhi, India : Pragati
Publications, 1993.
210 p. : maps ; 22 cm.
One map on lining papers.
Revision of the author's thesis (Ph. D.--University of
Bihar, 1989) under the title: Indigo plantation in
Bihar : changing countours of British policy and
management, 1860-1917.
Bibliography: p. [175]-187.
Includes glossary and index.
1. Indigofera--India--Bihar. 2. Peasant uprisings--
India--Bihar.
ISBN 81-7307-004-0
$20.80 DK-79574
-----------------
Weston, Christine, 1904-
Indigo / Christine Weston ; with an introduction by
Saros Cowasjee. -- New Delhi : Published by Indus, an
imprint of HarperCollins Publishers India, 1993.
xiv, 345 p. ; 20 cm.
A novel.
Originally published: New York : Charles Scribner's
Sons, 1943.
ISBN 81-7223-059-1
$7.90 (ubd.) DKI-4534
======================================================
======================================================
Sudipto Chatterjee wrote:
>
> Need some help with the history of Indigo cultivation and trade in India
> (especially Bengal). What is the time period of its flourish and fall? I
> know it was beginning to dwindle by the 1860s, after the Indigo Rebellion,
> but when exactly did artificial indigo replace the natural version? I'll be
> very grateful if anyone can supply any facts/figures on this or lead me to
> other sources. I am trying to connect this to the Indigo Rebellion in 19th
> century Bengal, particularly the Bengali play _Neeldarpan_ (1959) by
> Dinabandhu Mitra.
>
> Thanks.
>
> :Sudipto Chatterjee
> New York University
> chattrj at is3.nyu.edu
> _____________________________________________
> "[I]t only takes two generations to make anything traditional:
> naturally enough, since that is the sense of tradition as active
> process." --Raymond Williams
> _____________________________________________
> 100 Bleecker Street, Apt. #7C, New York, NY 10012
> Tel: (212) 979-6466 Fax: (212) 998-1855
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Nov 29 17:54:38 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 18:54:38 +0100
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027140.23782.11018023751675538959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Dominique Thillaud,
>very well and I thank you about.
>I've just a little problem more.
>My university is very young and his library very poor. The sanskrit shelter
>is one meter long (including Boeckling-Roth).
>Do you know a good bookshop specialized in sanskrit, preferably in Europa
>and with e-mail or http facilities, where to order books, specially this
>exciting edition of the Ramayana.
>namaste,
Generally, may I suggest Motilal in Delhi? He is a bit slow, but has a great
variety of Indological books and texts, and is not too expensive. As for
Pollock's book, you could probably find it in several places, but I am quite
certain that Princeton University Store has it. Here are the relevant addresses:
Motilal Banarsidass
Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar,
New Delhi 110 007
India
Ask for a catalogue!
Princeton University Store
Special Order Book Dept.
36 University Place
Princeton, New Jersey 08540
USA
Phone: 609-921-8500 x 221
Fax: 609-924-9651
When I was there a couple of years ago, they had a lot of literature that is
of interest to Indologists (mostly modern stuff, such as political science,
history of religions etc.), but no Sanskrit texts.
Try to avoid Otto Harrassowitz in Wiesbaden. Unless he has mended his ways,
he is extremely expensive. Motilal is mostly a better alternative.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse
From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Sat Nov 30 05:51:25 1996
From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 00:51:25 -0500
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027152.23782.4454938278868284397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
At 04:16 PM 11/29/1996 GMT, you wrote:
>My university is very young and his library very poor. The sanskrit shelter
>is one meter long (including Boeckling-Roth).
>Do you know a good bookshop specialized in sanskrit, preferably in Europa
>and with e-mail or http facilities, where to order books, specially this
>exciting edition of the Ramayana.
This edition of the Ramayana is available on the web - order through
amazon.com (this will probably take longer) or go to the Princeton
University Press website (A search on AltaVista brings this up -
the site itself is the univ. of chicago press site). They both have
the Goldman books listed. Apparently, only the first volume is
available in paperback - the prices make my head reel. Either
the authors/editor or Princeton Univ. press want everyone to pay
through their nose. I'm curious to know how many people are actually
going to get personal copies?
The Ramayana of Valmiki : An Epic of Ancient India :
Balakanda (Princeton Library of Asian Translations)
by Robert P. Goldman
Volume 1
Paperback, 3 pages
List: $18.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $18.95
Published by Princeton Univ Pr
Publication date: June 1990
Dimensions (in inches): 9.22 X 6.02 X .74
ISBN: 069101485X
COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
Inc.
ACCESSION: 01331014
ISBN/PRICE: 0691066604 CT; USD 72.50 R
PUB STATUS: Out of Stock Indefinitely
AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki, Vol. III; An Epic of Ancient India,
Aranyakanda
IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Dec. 1990
PHYS DESC: 448 p.
CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; aui
LANGUAGE: eng
PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
Record: 27
COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
Inc.
ACCESSION: 01331005
ISBN/PRICE: 0691065616 TC; USD 75.00 R
PUB STATUS: Active Record
AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; trl
TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki Balakanda; Vol. I
IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Feb. 1984
PHYS DESC: 450 p.
SERIES: Library of Asian Translations; Vol. I
CONTRIBUTOR: Sutherland, Sally; ann
LANGUAGE: eng
LCCN: 82-061364
PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
Record: 28
COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
Inc.
ACCESSION: 01331008
ISBN/PRICE: 069106654X CT; USD 87.50 R
PUB STATUS: Active Record
AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India, Vol II
IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Aug. 1986
PHYS DESC: 525 p. : ill.
SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
SUBJECT: POETRY (POETIC WORKS BY ONE AUTHOR)
CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; trl
LANGUAGE: eng
LCCN: 85-061364
PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
Record: 29
COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
Inc.
ACCESSION: 01331019
ISBN/PRICE: 0691066612 TC; USD 67.50 R
PUB STATUS: Active Record
AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India; Vol. IV
IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , June 1994
SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
SUBJECT: EPIC POETRY; VALMIKI RAMAYANA
CONTRIBUTOR: Lefeber, Rosalind; trl
LANGUAGE: eng
LCCN: 93-037044
PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
Kishore Krshna
kishore at mail.utexas.edu
______________________________________________________________
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Fri Nov 29 20:59:37 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 01:59:37 +0500
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027145.23782.5494818723824848054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to S. Rao)
sr> Your "very hard, totally objective historical fact" is false. I am
sr> a native Kannada speaker, and know for a fact that even
sr> compositions of the 17th century and later are not easy to grasp
sr> for me. Try reading the "hari-kathA-amrta-sAra" (18th cent.) if you
I'm afraid you have made a conflation of two things, because you have
seen the quoted and shortened text in L.M. Fosse's message and not my
original.
The hard fact is that among the living languages of India, Kannada has
the second oldest literature, after Tamil. There is a continuous history
since the tenth century, while the first Hindi prose composition seems
to have been written in 1803. This is a significant difference.
The Virasaiva vacanas of the twelfth century are popular reading. As for
the Harikathaam.rtasaara: this is not a good example, since it is a
rather technical religious text, though I personally know people here
who read it without too much trouble (because they know those
technicalities). And of course there are odd exceptions: Mudda.na, just
a hundred years ago, wrote his novel in a quasi-tenth-century language,
and Kuvempu's ~Srii Raamaaya.nadar~sanam, which got the Jnanpith Award,
is full of deliberate archaisms, which are sometimes interesting but do
not make reading easier.
sr> There is as much literature/"history" in Hindi, but it may be in
sr> dialects other than the standard "khaDI bolii" of today. Just as
sr> much of Kannada literature is in dialects other than today's
sr> official one.
This talk about "dialects" is part of the Raa.s.trabhaa.saa propaganda
and has been done away with earlier in this thread. As e.g. S.K.
CHatterjee has already pointed out, those "dialects" are actually
different languages, just as Portuguese and Spanish, or Marathi and
Konkani are. And by no stretch of the imagination can we seriously say
that Hindi literature is as old as that of Kannada. (The actual point of
the discussion is that I am arguing that there is an unhealthy fixation
in Western academia on Hindi as "the modern language of India" [sic -
this has actually been written here], with Hindi teachers in the
Western Indological world institutionally overrepresenting that
minority language while the majority of historical and contemporary
India is ignored, irrespective of relative merits in that majority.)
Regards,
Robert Zydenbos
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Fri Nov 29 21:00:15 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 02:00:15 +0500
Subject: Hindi and English in Karnataka
Message-ID: <161227027147.23782.5277145949387662432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to S. Rao)
sr> Btw, who are these "language activists in the south"? The only
sr> opposition to Hindi in the South is in Tamil Nadu, and that too
sr> only from the DMK-type politicos who use that as a vote-generating
sr> issue.
No. Among the better-known activists we have the ex-vice-chancellor of
Gulbarga University, H.M. Nayak, who is a highly popular newspaper
columnist; there is Patil Puttappa in northern Karnataka, of the Kannada
Watchdog Committee; Prof. M. Chidananda Murthy resigned from his
professor's post in Bangalore University to be a full-time activist for
the Kannada Sakti Kendra. A few years ago there was a public outcry when
the central government wanted to start model schools in each district of
Karnataka with Hindi as the medium of instruction (of course the plan
was dropped). Two years ago there were violent riots, mainly in
Bangalore, when Urdu t.v. news was broadcast from the Bangalore
Doordarshan centre (this is for those people on this list who speak
about Urdu as a "register" or "form" of Hindi). So there is language
activism also outside Tamilnadu, even if it is less violent and
spectacular. There is a good deal of opposition to the Rashtrabhasha
which is forced upon schools etc. (As I mentioned earlier, Deve Gowda is
learning Hindi now; and he has been ridiculed in newspaper editorials
for giving in to the north.)
sr> in fact Hindi/Urdu are better understood
sr> in other places in the South like Karnataka, than English.
How odd it is that I have not noticed this during the 13 years I have
been here and have been observing these things with a professional
interest.
This too has already been discussed: levels and criteria of linguistic
competence, registers of language, quality of communication etc. etc.,
even though it did not address my initial point.
I invite those who come to the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore
next January to look around in Bangalore city and keep count of shop
signs in English and in Hindi. You will find that every street with
shops has English signs; in the 17 years that I have been visiting the
city, I have not seen a shop with a Hindi sign. Come, all of you, and
have a look. Anyone can verify this. Hindi is found on a few central
government buildings. (Maybe there will be some advertising in Hindi for
north Indians during the conference, as there was near Shravanabelagola
during the mahaamastakaabhi.seka; that I cannot predict.) (And if any
witty person on this list objects that for some reason Bangalore is not
representative: this experiment can be repeated in Mysore, Nanjangud,
Mercara, Sakleshpur, Shimoga, Tirthahalli, Mangalore, Udupi,
Dharwad,...) While you are doing this, please also see the demand for
and supply of English books in bookshops and compare this with the
demand for and supply of Hindi books.
Now what does this mean? Why do all these shopkeepers communicate with
non-Kannada people in English? Are the collected shopkeepers of
Karnataka such complete idiots that they would use English if Hindi were
more widely understood and more useful? The answer is so glaringly
obvious that it is silly to discuss this matter any further. And I will
not discuss it further. Those who wish to play the fool can do so: the
choice is entirely theirs.
Robert Zydenbos
From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 30 16:47:53 1996
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 08:47:53 -0800
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027167.23782.8472313003360222569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
As a student of Prof. Goldman, I can assure you he and Drs. Sutherland and
Pollock in no way intended the hardback volumes to be so expensive. It is
most certainly the "fault" of the publisher. If you need these editions, I
suggest you use the Inter-library loan service at your respective
institutions and request them from UCB. cheers, Chandan Narayan.
>
> This edition of the Ramayana is available on the web - order through
> amazon.com (this will probably take longer) or go to the Princeton
> University Press website (A search on AltaVista brings this up -
> the site itself is the univ. of chicago press site). They both have
> the Goldman books listed. Apparently, only the first volume is
> available in paperback - the prices make my head reel. Either
> the authors/editor or Princeton Univ. press want everyone to pay
> through their nose. I'm curious to know how many people are actually
> going to get personal copies?
>
> The Ramayana of Valmiki : An Epic of Ancient India :
> Balakanda (Princeton Library of Asian Translations)
>
> by Robert P. Goldman
>
> Volume 1
> Paperback, 3 pages
> List: $18.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $18.95
> Published by Princeton Univ Pr
> Publication date: June 1990
> Dimensions (in inches): 9.22 X 6.02 X .74
> ISBN: 069101485X
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331014
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691066604 CT; USD 72.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Out of Stock Indefinitely
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki, Vol. III; An Epic of Ancient India,
> Aranyakanda
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Dec. 1990
> PHYS DESC: 448 p.
> CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; aui
> LANGUAGE: eng
> PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
> Record: 27
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331005
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691065616 TC; USD 75.00 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; trl
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki Balakanda; Vol. I
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Feb. 1984
> PHYS DESC: 450 p.
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations; Vol. I
> CONTRIBUTOR: Sutherland, Sally; ann
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 82-061364
> PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
> Record: 28
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331008
> ISBN/PRICE: 069106654X CT; USD 87.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India, Vol II
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Aug. 1986
> PHYS DESC: 525 p. : ill.
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
> SUBJECT: POETRY (POETIC WORKS BY ONE AUTHOR)
> CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; trl
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 85-061364
> PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
> Record: 29
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331019
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691066612 TC; USD 67.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India; Vol. IV
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , June 1994
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
> SUBJECT: EPIC POETRY; VALMIKI RAMAYANA
> CONTRIBUTOR: Lefeber, Rosalind; trl
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 93-037044
> PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
> Kishore Krshna
> kishore at mail.utexas.edu
> ______________________________________________________________
>
>
>
From cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 30 16:55:02 1996
From: cnarayan at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Chandan Raghava Narayan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 08:55:02 -0800
Subject: The word "upanishad"
Message-ID: <161227027170.23782.6189898038445808690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I learned another curious "definition" of upaniSad in the opening
commentary by SankarAcarya of the verse sahanAvavatu... in the
kaThopanisad. Maybe you can check it out. cheers, Chandan Narayan.
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Martin Gansten wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The word "upanishad" is generally explained as upa+ni+sad "to sit down
> nearby", etc, but some time ago, I saw another etymology suggested, which at
> the time seemed to me to make good sense. However, my dilemma is this: I
> remember neither the etymology itself, nor the text (book? article?) which
> mentioned it. Can anybody help? I do realize that my question is not unlike
> that of Nebuchadnezzar, but I hope that there may be a Daniel on this list
> to answer it for me... :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Martin Gansten
>
>
>
From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Sat Nov 30 17:00:15 1996
From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 09:00:15 -0800
Subject: New Message
Message-ID: <161227027168.23782.10112499229754722823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Date: November 30, 1996
Indology List
indology at Liverpool.ac.uk
Dear Members,
I no longer remember what started the original thread
on Hindi vs. the other languages of India, but it seems
to me it had something to do with declining academic
support for the study of India. If that is true, it
also seems to me much of the discussion is not only self-
defeating, but misses the point. As someone long back
mentioned, language teaching at universities is
primarily meant to enable budding scholars to carry out
research in specific regions, not to facilitate visits
to India by tourists or the scholar as s/he may travel
around India for various personal reasons. If that is the
case, population statistics and the quality of
communication outside the region in which one works is
not particularly relevant.
Most researchers (anthropologists, political
scientists, historians, etc.) rely on their
universities to provide them with the language skills
necessary to carry out their work. If they have already
chosen a region then they have to seek a university
which offers the languages of that region, sometimes at
the expense of studying under the most appropriate
guide within their discipline. Most, however, choose
their university according to their disciplinary
interests and secondarily their region of research.
What seems more to the point of some of the discussion, is that there is
an unfortunate imbalance developing in our knowledge of Indian tradition,
with an excessive concentration on a few areas (Hindi, Tamil, Bengali
speaking regions) largely, I think, because those are the languages which
aretaught most widely. Some regions -- Andhra Pradesh,
Karnataka, Maharashtra, Gujarat, etc. -- have been
sorely neglected despite their acknowledged importance
to Indology (broadly defined). Western nations have
not gone about the teaching of modern Indian languages
in a academically rational way.
Departments of South Asia, it seems to me, would do
well to assess the needs of the faculty of other
disciplines who specialize in India before they make
their choices in hiring language teachers, and language
teachers would do well to acquire at least basic skills
in SEVERAl related languages so that they may offer
broader service to graduate students in academic
disciplines other than literature.
Renewed efforts will have to be made toward convincing
various agencies of the need to understand India as a
whole, and to point out the problems resulting in the
severe unevenness of our understanding of it. It is
precisely these regions which are most vulnerable to
absorption into both a constructed national identity
and the global spread of Western culture. Time is
truly running out for us. It seems grievously silly of
us on an academic LIST to be arguing about these
matters on the basis of how well we can travel around
India as if we were only tourists.
Peter J. Claus
fax: (510) 704-9636
pclaus at csuhayward.edu
From witzel at husc3.harvard.edu Sat Nov 30 15:38:13 1996
From: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 10:38:13 -0500
Subject: The word "upanishad"
Message-ID: <161227027163.23782.887971105077335291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Yes, as Daniel: -- but while being the lion's pit.
You probably refer to Harry Falk, in Zeitschrift der deutschen
morgenlaendischen Gesellschaft, a few years ago (c. 1988?). Have to check
in my office.
Falk has, I think, most of the older literature: still useful, besides
Hermann Oldenberg (Die Weltanschuung der Upanischaden...), is Stanislaw
Schayer, c. 1925: "Upanisad", probably in Zeitschrift fuer Buddhismus Vol.
5. - where he derives it from upa-ni-sad, but in the meaning of "to lay
siege to (the knowledge of the teacher"; cf. also: Schayer, Die
Weltanschauung der Brahmana-Texte, Rocznik Orientalist. 3.
Hope this helps. MW
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Martin Gansten wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The word "upanishad" is generally explained as upa+ni+sad "to sit down
> nearby", etc, but some time ago, I saw another etymology suggested, which at
> the time seemed to me to make good sense. However, my dilemma is this: I
> remember neither the etymology itself, nor the text (book? article?) which
> mentioned it. Can anybody help? I do realize that my question is not unlike
> that of Nebuchadnezzar, but I hope that there may be a Daniel on this list
> to answer it for me... :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Martin Gansten
>
>
>
From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Sat Nov 30 15:42:34 1996
From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 10:42:34 -0500
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027165.23782.13277742872522009883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> In the 80th sarga of the Ayodhyakanda, Valmiki relates the building
>of a road, specially in slokas 1-10 the clearing and levelling. Many terms
>are not very clear to me, trades, objects ans actions; few examples:
> bhumiipradezajnaaH are geographers, geologists or surveyors ?
> what about the viiraNastambaaH, just weeding ?
> what are the nimnabhaagaaH, marshes or ponds (opposite to sthalaani) ?
> and then what about bandh-, kSud- and bhid- (confine, empty, drain ?) ?
> etc.
I don't have access to the Princeton translation at the moment, since we're
on vacation (Thanksgiving holiday), but it may be of use to note what the
commentators have to say on the passage in question (2.80 = critical ed.
2.74): bhuumipradezajnaa.h: either those who are expert concerning areas
where the land is low, high and so on (Govindaraaja:
nimnonnataadipradezajnaa.h), know different areas (Govindaraaja: yad vaa
naanaadezavida.h), or expert in areas where the land has underground water
or is arid and so on (Tilaka: anta.hsajalanirjalaadibuumipradezajnaa.h).
viira.nastambaan ... vidhamanti: Tilaka comes close to 'weeding':
viira.nastambaan vidhamanti hastaabhyaam eva ni.hsaarayanti. Govindaraaja
interprets this as burning off clumps of viira.na grass that have such
fixed roots that they cannot cut: viira.nastambaan viira.nat.r.nkaa.n.daan
vidhamanti sma adahan. dhmaa zabdaagnivakrasa.myogayo.h ity asmaad dhaator
dhamaadeza.h. balina.h ruu.dhmuulaan chettum azakyaan ity artha.h. The
Tattvadiipikaa interprets vidhamanti to mean be tantamount to chindanti
(vidhamanti vik.sepanti chindantiiti yaavat). It is doubtful that
nimnabhaaga could mean 'marshes, ponds' in the passage in question:
nimnabhaagaa.ms tata.h kecit samaa.m cakru.h; rather, after clearing,
levelling is done, making the way level. bandh, k.sud and bhid: 'confine,
empty' are to be doubted. The commentators are doubtless right in taking
the first to refer to building bridges: they connected the areas to be
connected (babandhur bandhaniiyaa.mz ca) with bridges [sc. setubhi.h];
smoothed the rocky surfaces by crushing the stones on them (e.g., Tilaka:
k.sodyaan k.sodaniiyaan zarkaraabhuuyi.s.thapradezaan sa.mcuk.suduz
cuur.nayaam aasu.h). 'drain' is appropriate in general, though bibhidur
bhedaniiyaan refers to the places (banks) which had to be broken up to let
water out. Hope this helps. George Cardona
From phijag at zelacom.com Sat Nov 30 16:10:04 1996
From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 11:10:04 -0500
Subject: The word "upanishad"
Message-ID: <161227027161.23782.4540017014140964407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Sankara derives it as a substantive from the root "sad" = "to loosen", "to
reach", "to destroy" with upa and ni as prefixes and the kvip as termination
(upanishhannam va asyam param shreya iti - gloss on Taitt. Up. The word
"upanishad" thus means "the knowledge by which ignorance is loosened or
destroyed."
John
>The word "upanishad" is generally explained as upa+ni+sad "to sit down
>nearby", etc, but some time ago, I saw another etymology suggested, which at
>the time seemed to me to make good sense. However, my dilemma is this: I
>remember neither the etymology itself, nor the text (book? article?) which
>mentioned it. Can anybody help? I do realize that my question is not unlike
>that of Nebuchadnezzar, but I hope that there may be a Daniel on this list
>to answer it for me... :-)
>
>Thanks,
>Martin Gansten
>
>
>
From conlon at u.washington.edu Sat Nov 30 22:27:08 1996
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 14:27:08 -0800
Subject: New Message (Hindi in Karnataka and all that)
Message-ID: <161227027175.23782.7907618562017536788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Colleagues:
Peter Claus sounds a welcome alarm regarding how far North American study
of South Asia (well, at least of India) has not proceeded rationally on an
all South Asian (well, all Indian basis). Some parts are studied far more
than others. His suggestion that this is due in significant measure to
the availability of language instruction in what the Department of
Education calls "less commonly taught" languages, is intriguing, and may,
in part, be true.
However, although I sympathize with the inability of new graduate students
to easily prepare for research in, say, Karnataka or Maharashtra, much
less in the Konkan or Tulunad, I am obliged to slightly dissent from my
friend's analysis of the problem.
I do so, not out of a desire to contradict, but to reflect upon the not
inconsiderable obstacles that have existed to the "rational planning" of
South Asian studies in North America.
For example, there is the matter of how language instruction is viewed.
On the one hand there is a sense that professors of language and
literature are colleagues in the exploration and interpretation of the
social and cultural complex known as South Asia or India. On the other
hand there is what I might call an "instrumental" view of language
teaching.
Peter appears to agree with the instrumental "language-instruction-as-
service view of why we offer various Indian or other languages when he
states that "language teaching at universities is primarily meant to
enable budding scholars to carry out research..."
He goes on to note, correctly I think, that these new budding researchers
in various disciplines rely on their institutions to provide them with
"language skills necessary to carry out their work." He further observes
that they usually choose their institution because of the quality of the
disciplinary faculty of their chosen field, and language is at best a
secondary consideration. Speaking as a historian who moved into South
Asian history AFTER deciding to go on to graduate study, I know this was
the case for me. However, once in graduate school, I discovered that it
would be no small feat to get transferred to an institution that regularly
taught (or claimed at least to regularly teach) Marathi. So I commenced
with Hindi and, as luck would have it, found informal instruction in
Marathi which was possible because my Hindi instructor was also fluent in
Marathi, his mother tongue. Not everyone could get such a deal.
Since I commenced observing the course of South Asian studies a number of
years ago, my sense has been that many, perhaps most, graduate students
AND faculty who are in disciplines such as Anthropology, History and
Political Science, have regarded language instruction as merely an
instrumental means toward an end. Not surprisingly, given the general
treatment of the humanities in American academe, most language instruction
was compensated at a lower scale than most social science instruction.
Furthermore, within centers of South Asian studies, language activities
tended to be regarded as instrumental, and by extension, secondary, to the
"real work" of mastering the discipline, preparing for the exams, and
ultimately conducting field research for a dissertation.
The treatment of language (and by extension, literature) in this mode
created a contradictory situation. Most language instruction was
conducted be departments of "languages and literature" and as such, the
tenure track faculty were expected to develop distinguished records of
publication and recognition that went far beyond their qualities as
language instructors. Note, however, that most faculty who taught
language (whether French or Hindi) who aspired to tenure had, to meet the
usual thresholds of publication, recognition etc. Yet, since in the case
of Indic languages, frequently they were the only person available to
teach the subject, there were no "research quarters" which were routinely
available to faculty in the social sciences. At the University of
Washington, I might, once upon a time, be granted a winter quarter without
responsibility for formal classroom instruction, but Michael Shapiro could
not tell his Hindi students to think hard about Hindi for three
months while he did research--the language courses ran the full academic
year.
Some university administrators these days are contemplating language
instruction as a problem which can be solved by a sort of "Berlitz"
approach, and by extension, eroding support for research on literatures.
(Please note, this is not limited to South Asian studies, but is a
phenomenon being encountered generally.) This may, in fact, be the only
means by which formal instruction in the "less commonly taught" languages
will be available in North American higher education, but most provosts
and deans find themselves called upon to allocate resources on some
rational basis, and so far the "rational" basis has been enrollments.
Thus, Peter Claus's very important question about why only a few languages
are taught and his observation of the impact this has on further training
of scholars, runs directly into the unintended consequences of academic
adminsitrative priorities. Small language courses represent TROUBLE, and
over-specialization. Such concern rarely appears when highly specialized
science courses are under-enrolled, but then the concerned faculty in
those cases, will be only doing a little teaching on top of their research
grant. Well, you may say, life is not fair... (and you'd be right!)
Peter Claus's suggestion that South Asia departments "assess the needs of
the faculty of other disciplines who specialize in India before they make
their choices in hiring language teachers" is an understandable request
that reflects the instrumental view of language instruction. But in my
experience, departments make choices only after deans and provosts have
approved the search--a process in which enrollments or "demand for
product" seems to matter very much. Since Peter knows that I am
sympathetic with his goal of preserving scholarly development in
North America on areas like Gujarat, Maharashtra and Karnataka, he will
not take umbrage if I ask him how far his own department faculty as a
whole would give priority to the needs or desires of faculty and students
in other disciplinary fields? My own experience at one university in
particular suggests that there is a built in resistence to such
potentially constructive gestures.
Peter's point about the need "to understand India as a whole" is a vital
one, and, conceived in terms of regions and language traditions, it
obviously speaks to his concern about diversity. However, I think there
is also an additional need for whole understanding, and that is a
continued exploration of literature and other cultural expressions, which
may well be researched by faculty who are appointed to teach languages.
My sense is that in the context of declining resources, many decisions
about appointments will have less to do with multi-lingual capacities, but
the capacity of candidates to "teach something else" in, for
example, literature or religion.
I absolutely agree with Peter's concern about the inadequacy of vision
that arises from limiting the linguistic horizons of North America's next
generation of South Asian specialists. I just am not sure that America's
research universities are prepared to interpret "rational planning" in a
way that would produce the results which Peter and I would applaud. Nor
am I convinced that we can argue our case best by casting our
language-specialist colleagues into a once-born status of service
providers.
sincerely,
Frank
Frank F. Conlon
Professor of History
Director, South Asia Center
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Co-editor of H-ASIA
From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 30 23:26:57 1996
From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 15:26:57 -0800
Subject: public works in Ramayana
Message-ID: <161227027178.23782.3482715348682318272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Please note that the paperback ed. does not include endnotes.
Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley
At 06:53 AM 11/30/96 GMT, you wrote:
>At 04:16 PM 11/29/1996 GMT, you wrote:
>>My university is very young and his library very poor. The sanskrit shelter
>>is one meter long (including Boeckling-Roth).
>>Do you know a good bookshop specialized in sanskrit, preferably in Europa
>>and with e-mail or http facilities, where to order books, specially this
>>exciting edition of the Ramayana.
>
>This edition of the Ramayana is available on the web - order through
>amazon.com (this will probably take longer) or go to the Princeton
>University Press website (A search on AltaVista brings this up -
>the site itself is the univ. of chicago press site). They both have
>the Goldman books listed. Apparently, only the first volume is
>available in paperback - the prices make my head reel. Either
>the authors/editor or Princeton Univ. press want everyone to pay
>through their nose. I'm curious to know how many people are actually
>going to get personal copies?
>
>The Ramayana of Valmiki : An Epic of Ancient India :
> Balakanda (Princeton Library of Asian Translations)
>
>by Robert P. Goldman
>
>Volume 1
>Paperback, 3 pages
>List: $18.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $18.95
>Published by Princeton Univ Pr
>Publication date: June 1990
>Dimensions (in inches): 9.22 X 6.02 X .74
>ISBN: 069101485X
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331014
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691066604 CT; USD 72.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Out of Stock Indefinitely
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki, Vol. III; An Epic of Ancient India,
> Aranyakanda
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Dec. 1990
> PHYS DESC: 448 p.
> CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; aui
> LANGUAGE: eng
>PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
>Record: 27
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331005
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691065616 TC; USD 75.00 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; trl
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki Balakanda; Vol. I
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Feb. 1984
> PHYS DESC: 450 p.
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations; Vol. I
> CONTRIBUTOR: Sutherland, Sally; ann
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 82-061364
>PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
>Record: 28
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331008
> ISBN/PRICE: 069106654X CT; USD 87.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India, Vol II
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , Aug. 1986
> PHYS DESC: 525 p. : ill.
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
> SUBJECT: POETRY (POETIC WORKS BY ONE AUTHOR)
> CONTRIBUTOR: Pollock, Sheldon I.; trl
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 85-061364
>PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>
>
>Record: 29
>
> COPYRIGHT: BOOKS IN PRINT (r), (c) R.R. Bowker, Reed Elsevier
> Inc.
> ACCESSION: 01331019
> ISBN/PRICE: 0691066612 TC; USD 67.50 R
> PUB STATUS: Active Record
> AUTHOR: Goldman, Robert P.; edt
> TITLE: The Ramayana of Valmiki; An Epic of Ancient India; Vol. IV
> IMPRINT: Princeton : : Princeton University Press, , June 1994
> SERIES: Library of Asian Translations
> SUBJECT: EPIC POETRY; VALMIKI RAMAYANA
> CONTRIBUTOR: Lefeber, Rosalind; trl
> LANGUAGE: eng
> LCCN: 93-037044
>PUB ORDER NO: Princeton U Pr
>
>Kishore Krshna
>kishore at mail.utexas.edu
>______________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
From mgansten at sbbs.se Sat Nov 30 14:47:00 1996
From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 15:47:00 +0100
Subject: The word "upanishad"
Message-ID: <161227027160.23782.7408339865712000880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Hello all,
The word "upanishad" is generally explained as upa+ni+sad "to sit down
nearby", etc, but some time ago, I saw another etymology suggested, which at
the time seemed to me to make good sense. However, my dilemma is this: I
remember neither the etymology itself, nor the text (book? article?) which
mentioned it. Can anybody help? I do realize that my question is not unlike
that of Nebuchadnezzar, but I hope that there may be a Daniel on this list
to answer it for me... :-)
Thanks,
Martin Gansten
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 30 11:08:17 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 16:08:17 +0500
Subject: Hindi and... oops
Message-ID: <161227027153.23782.2387671149050351974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Dear Lars Martin Fosse,
lf> As a matter of fact, I am not a Hindi scholar but a Sanskritist.
Eh... yes. So my meanness got the better of me there, and I do owe you a
sincere apology.
But if that is the only factual error in my argumentation, then I think
I was doing okay, eh? :-)
Robert Zydenbos
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 30 11:08:47 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 16:08:47 +0500
Subject: Hindi and Zee
Message-ID: <161227027155.23782.18264718940956573532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to Ruth Laila Schmidt)
rs> quite a large number of people in India (and in Pakistan and other
rs> South Asian countries, not to mention East Asia and Europe, are
rs> regular watchers of Zee TV, which uses non-Sanskritized,
rs> non-Persianized Hindi-Urdu as its medium.
Ah, but what is it? It is almost English with a few Urdu words (mem,
par, hai, ham) thrown in. A historian may say that this is a parallel to
what happened in the case of Urdu, only that instead of Persian etc. we
have English in this case. But did Urdu really catch on with the Indian
masses? I don't think so (and this is why Hindi is being created). Urdu
is a finely developed linguistic medium, with centuries of intensive
cultivation; but it remained the vehicle of a certain kind of culture
(Persianized). If the parallel holds good, then Zee language will be the
vehicle of a certain sub-culture too (a weird one). It is of course too
early to say so with any certainty, but I think (and hope, actually)
that it will not catch on.
rs> I concede that this wierd and wonderful language form isn't written
Which is part of the reason why I think it will not have a glorious
future,
rs> and won't get you far on a university campus
but this I don't know! :-) The Kannada of students in Bangalore is
rather sickening too, just like Zee language.
Robert Zydenbos
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 30 11:09:19 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 16:09:19 +0500
Subject: Hindi etc. in Karnataka
Message-ID: <161227027156.23782.4652974280302095457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to Shrisha Rao, replying to Gail Coelho)
Even if I did announce that I will not discuss this any further... I do
have to point out some factual errors.
sr> Karnataka for instance indigenously has Kannada, Tulu, and Konkani,
sr> all with their own scripts even, and then there's a massive
sr> presence of Urdu, made all the more permanent by the historical
sr> influence of Tipu Sultan, et al.
Tulu and Konkani have no scripts of their own. Tulu was once written in
Malayalam script and is now written in Kannada script, and Konkani is
written in Kannada script too (except by certain Christians - not all -
who use Latin script; only in Goa, Konkani is written in Nagari).
Tipu Sultan's administrative language was Marathi, believe it or not. At
his court, Persian was cultivated, as we can read in the museum in
Srirangapattana. Tipu himself was from a local converted family, not an
Urdu speaker from the north.
Urdu speakers are a mere 9% of the population of Karnataka, hardly
"massive" in comparison with the national percentage.
sr> Look at Hyderabad, Raichur, Gulbarga, Belgaum, etc.
These are on the periphery of Karnataka, and the first three cities in
your list are in what is known as "Hyderabad Karnataka", which was part
of the territory of the Nizam; they are not at all representative of
Karnataka as a whole. Belgaum is a town with many Marathi speakers, not
Hindi speakers. (By the way, I could have added these towns to my
'English shop sign list'.)
As for resistance to Hindi in Karnataka: I have already dealt with it
elsewhere. And I second Gail Coelho's remarks about schools (like the
one my daughter attends). One difference here is that many students opt
for Sanskrit and drop Hindi as soon as they can (if the school allows),
because in exams only passive, and no active mastery of Sanskrit is
required.
Robert Zydenbos
From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sat Nov 30 11:09:45 1996
From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 16:09:45 +0500
Subject: Hindi etc. in Karnataka
Message-ID: <161227027158.23782.12238443520591855130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
(In reply to Shrisha Rao, replying to Gail Coelho)
sr> Well, now, Calicut is not exactly part of the area under
sr> consideration.
Are you saying that Calicut is not in South India? :-)
sr> As for the first three (none of which I actually mentioned),
But they are more representative of Karnataka than the peripheral
Hyderabad Karnataka towns you mentioned.
sr> One point to be noted is that your ability to judge how well
sr> Hindi/Urdu are spoken and received, would be related to your own
sr> ability to speak those languages fluently. May I ask if you do
sr> speak them well?
I think I do, if you don't mind my intruding here.
sr> If not, it is but natural that people would speak
sr> to you everywhere in English only, making your judgement
sr> questionable.
When I did not know Kannada yet, I tried both English and Hindi. I second
Gail Coelho's remarks.
May I ask a mean but pertinent question? Have you, Shrisha, ever spoken
English in Karnataka? And Hindi, to compare? Or were you always (as one
should!) speaking Kannada, as a native speaker? Your judgment may be
equally questionable.
sr> You wouldn't get anywhere trying to direct an auto-driver in
sr> English: most are Urdu-speaking Muslims with less than a
sr> high-school education.
I challenge that assertion about the Muslim majority among rickshaw
drivers, as well as the statement about giving directions. In the beginning
I went everywhere in Bangalore using English in rickshaws. (And whatever
the driver's religious background may be, also when speaking Kannada, you
have to give instructions using English words: 'right', 'left', 'stop'...)
sr> In fact, Karnataka has slightly more than the national average
sr> percentage of Muslims, and all speak Urdu at home.
Wrong. The Muslims on the coast are migrants from Kerala who speak
Malayalam and refuse to use Urdu, out of pride of their distinct identity.
Most Muslim Kannada writers are from that group.
(By the way: should we confuse Urdu and Hindi? My Urdu-speaking
acquaintances [university professors, shopkeeepers, carpenters, automotive
mechanics] all have a contempt for Hindi, which they consider an 'ugly
upstart language'. When I tried Hindi in Muslim shops, I was answered in
English... [And don't quip that my Hindi must be bad. :-) In Benares I
spoke Hindi with everyone.])
Robert Zydenbos
From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Sat Nov 30 23:16:28 1996
From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 17:16:28 -0600
Subject: Hindi and English in Karnataka
Message-ID: <161227027177.23782.17266276836585990365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
> I don't know Kannada, and therefore do not know the Kannadan equivalent of
> the words "Power" and "Center," but I can not help but notice that Prof.
> Murthy's language activist organization, the Kannada Sakti Kendra has
> ironically borrowed Hindi words, for the name of the language movement
> (bhaasha andolan). Perhaps the ubiquitous use of many of these Sanskrit
> derived words, found in Hindi and their cognates in many north Indian
> languages, along with the large scale borrowing of Sanskrit terms into
> several Dravidian languages, provides the commonality necessary to
> accommodate and communicate.
>
> Yvette C. Rosser
I don't think borrowing from Hindi is really relevant, here -- that's
something that always happens in multilingual situtations. I'd be *very*
surprised if Kannada hadn't borrowed from Hindi, a language with
which it has frequent contact, regardless of the power ratio or status
of the two languages. Anyway, the Indic languages have also borrowed a
lot from the Dravidian ones.
Gail
From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Sat Nov 30 23:33:36 1996
From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 17:33:36 -0600
Subject: Hindi etc.
Message-ID: <161227027180.23782.3867556407422588943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Narayan S. Raja wrote:
> You keep calling Hindi a "minority language" --
> which it is (like every other language in
> India). But let's beam back to Planet Earth
> and look at some numbers:
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Population of India (approx) -- 900 million
> Population of "Hindi belt" (approx)
> (UP+Bihar+MP+Rajasthan+Haryana+HP) -- 280 million
>
> Subtract non-Hindi-speakers, esp. in
> Bihar and MP -- - 40 million
> Add Hindi-speakers in other parts
> of India -- + 50 million (at least)
>
>
> TOTAL Hindi-speakers 290 million (approx)
>
> %ge of Hindi-speakers in Indian pop. ~~ 33%
You get this percentage by including speakers in the Hindi belt -- the
status of Hindi as a lingua franca should depend on its use in the
*non-Hindi* belt. Judging by your figures that is only 8.07% (50 million
speakers of Hindi outside the Hindi belt out of a population of 620
million outside that belt). But I assume you've given figures only for
native speakers of Hindi, so the ones for second language users may be
higher.
> Hmmm... seen in this way (33% Hindi-speakers, as
> compared with 8% for the next-largest language group
> in India), I can easily understand that many foreigners,
> if they could pick only one modern Indian language,
> would pick Hindi.
Well, only if they want to limit their interaction mainly to the Hindi
belt in India.
I'm not against learning Hindi -- I'm just against unrealistic attempts
to impose it on Indians and futile, pseudo-nationalistic opposition to
English.
Gail
From garzilli at shore.net Sat Nov 30 23:52:23 1996
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 18:52:23 -0500
Subject: IJTS Vol. 2, No. 2 (1996)
Message-ID: <161227027172.23782.9967890345648183786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
I am very glad to announce that the:
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES
Vol. 2 (1996), No. 2, November 30
ISSN 1084-7553 Copyright (c)1995-96 IJTS
http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/
ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india
has just been emailed to our members. You can read it on our ftp server. In a few days
it will be published on our WWW pages.
IN THIS ISSUE:
- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
- PAPER: *Sexual Imagery on the _Phantasmagorical Castles_
at Khajuraho* by Michael Rabe
- COMPUTER SPACE: *The New Nina Fonts and Macros for
Devanagari* by Ludovico Magnocavallo
- NEW TITLES:
Review of Giorgio Renato Franci (ed.) *Studi Orientali e
Linguistici. V (1994-95)* (Enrica Garzilli)
Review of Ram Nath Kak *Autumn Leaves. Kashmiri
Reminiscences* (Enrica Garzilli)
Review of Swami Satyananda Saraswati (tr.) *ChaNDI pATh*
(Enrica Garzilli)
- COPYRIGHT NOTICE
* * * * *
Abstract of *Sexual Imagery on the _Phantasmagorical Castles_ at Khajuraho* by Michael
Rabe
The erotic component of Indian temple architecture has been called the most
debated subject of Indian history. The paper is a marshalling of some of the most
telling written and visual *texts* on the subject of medieval Hindu erotica as
they pertain to or are found displayed upon temples at Khajuraho, justifiably the best
known exemplars of sexual imagery in India.
The paper will be accompanied on our WWW pages (http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/) by
24 gifs.
* * * * *
Abstract of *The New Nina Fonts and macros for Devanagari* by Ludovico Magnocavallo
One of the first problems we had to deal with in publishing Sanskrit-
related material on the Internet is the lack of a standard codepage for
representing Sanskrit characters that is suited for use with modern
operating systems. Our solution to the problem of publishing Sanskrit together
with other languages with diacritics is a new encoding, and a new set of fonts
which are compatible with the current standards and operating systems. We are
designing the Nina fonts and macros.
* * * * *
Enjoy the reading!
Enrica Garzilli
--
Prof. Enrica Garzilli
Univ. of Perugia (ITALY)
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india)
*************************************************************
From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Nov 30 19:26:06 1996
From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 20:26:06 +0100
Subject: New Message
Message-ID: <161227027173.23782.18427647615803350268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>
Peter Claus wrote:
>I no longer remember what started the original thread
>on Hindi vs. the other languages of India, but it seems
>to me it had something to do with declining academic
>support for the study of India.
>What seems more to the point of some of the discussion, is that there is
>an unfortunate imbalance developing in our knowledge of Indian tradition,
>with an excessive concentration on a few areas (Hindi, Tamil, Bengali
>speaking regions) largely, I think, because those are the languages which
>aretaught most widely. Some regions -- Andhra Pradesh,
>Karnataka, Maharashtra, Gujarat, etc. -- have been
>sorely neglected despite their acknowledged importance
>to Indology (broadly defined). Western nations have
>not gone about the teaching of modern Indian languages
>in a academically rational way.
>
>Departments of South Asia, it seems to me, would do
>well to assess the needs of the faculty of other
>disciplines who specialize in India before they make
>their choices in hiring language teachers, and language
>teachers would do well to acquire at least basic skills
>in SEVERAl related languages so that they may offer
>broader service to graduate students in academic
>disciplines other than literature.
>
>Renewed efforts will have to be made toward convincing
>various agencies of the need to understand India as a
>whole, and to point out the problems resulting in the
>severe unevenness of our understanding of it. It is
>precisely these regions which are most vulnerable to
>absorption into both a constructed national identity
>and the global spread of Western culture. Time is
>truly running out for us. It seems grievously silly of
>us on an academic LIST to be arguing about these
>matters on the basis of how well we can travel around
>India as if we were only tourists.
I don't think the point was that we should concentrate upon mere tourist,
although such people have their function in the academic battle for funds.
It seems to me that the basic problem is that the agencies that fund
universitities these days are less and less interested in intellectual
matters and more and more interested in pragmatic concerns. Sinology is
being funded because China is economically and politically important, not
because the funders think that China is such an interesting place. In a
similar manner, subjects are being funded if there are a lot of students
around who want to study the subject, whether the subject as such it is
worthwhile or not. To keep your funding coming in, you have to produce a
steady stream of students doing examinations (this is where the value of
"tourist" students become apparent, as long as they turn up in the
statistics) or convince the funders that what you are doing is essential to
national politics or the economy. Admittedly, this description may be
slightly exaggerated, but not much, I am afraid. I have most of my academic
life been surrounded by teachers who were able to teach at least ten
languages or more. But they developed in an academic climate where noone
asked for "practical results", and where they were given time and money to
develop into prodigious linguistic talents. Today, university work is being
modelled on industrial work, mostly with a detrimental effect upon the
quality of academic work.
To me there seem to be two strategies available if we want to strengthen the
study of Indic languages: 1) Argue for positions that formally cover the
largest languages (Hindi/Urdu and the others mentioned above), and have the
teachers in these positions teach other languages as well, and 2) have
several universities cooperate in such a manner that one university covers a
certain part of Indic linguistics, whereas other universities cover other
parts. This may involve formal cooperation between universities across
national borders.
Anyone out there with practical experience as to how to handle funding
problems? All strategies that work are welcome.
Best regards,
Lars Martin Fosse