From wagers at computek.net Wed May 1 01:30:12 1996 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 20:30:12 -0500 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024148.23782.10067626979171855068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson writes on 5/1/96: > Things being rather quiet on this list, I have been roaming, and have come > across another group discussing Lefkowitz's new book "Not Out of Africa", > which attacks, from a classicist's point of view, Afrocentric claims about > the sources of Greek culture. Oh, the minute we go quiet, you go roaming, eh? > Very wild and very reckless discussions go on there, mostly not very >interesting or >informative. You're dead right, but we're supposed to be discussing the debate, and the debate hasn't happened. Besides I think anyone at home on this list would feel comfortable there :) Will wagers at computek.net http://denton.computek.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Indologist.Shtml http://denton.computek.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Mayanist.Shtml From thompson at handel.jlc.net Wed May 1 01:08:31 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 21:08:31 -0400 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024146.23782.9255904848193385127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Things being rather quiet on this list, I have been roaming, and have come across another group discussing Lefkowitz's new book "Not Out of Africa", which attacks, from a classicist's point of view, Afrocentric claims about the sources of Greek culture. Very wild and very reckless discussions go on there, mostly not very interesting or informative. But it occurred to me that there is a new angle that may be of interest not only to classicists and africanists, but to indologists as well. Unfortunately, I don't remember specific references, but I recall that Filliozat a long time ago made suggestions re the influence of Hindu [upaniSadic] sources on the likes of Plato, et al. Does anyone on this list have references to Filliozat's claims? And, just as important, does anyone know how classicists have responded to such claims, if at all? Sincerely, George Thompson From deck at div.harvard.edu Wed May 1 02:49:55 1996 From: deck at div.harvard.edu (deck at div.harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 22:49:55 -0400 Subject: The Hindu Message-ID: <161227024150.23782.5574204304725715489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The webpage of The Hindu is http://www.webpage.com/hindu/current/weekly.html From y.r.rani at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed May 1 12:38:08 1996 From: y.r.rani at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (y.r.rani at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 07:38:08 -0500 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024164.23782.18141807673313177063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The influences of "Indic thought" on classical Greek philosophy, may, as suggested by Lars Martin Fos, go back to the common source of Indo-European culture. However, since the work of the Orientalists discovered similarities between Eastern and Western philosophy, it has been discussed among some scholars that Plato and others may have "borrowed" ideas from India. This possibility is historically not too far fetched. The fact that there was commercial trade between the Indian Subcontinent and Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt and the countries of the Fertile Crescent, for almost 2500 years before the common era is well documented. Cuneiform records dating from 2400 BCE describe shipments of cotton cloth, spices, oil, grains, and such exotic items as peacocks. There are mummies dating from 2000 BC whose wrappings were made from Indus Valley cotton. Ideas as well as merchandise had been exchanged between the India and western regions for centuries. Pythagoris is said to have been influenced by Oriental ideas and the Greek prince, Seleucus Nikator, shortly after the time of Alexander the Great, gave his daughter in marriage to the Indian sovereign and sent an ambassador, Megasthenes, to the court of Chandragupta. There were individuals living in the western parts of Askoka's empire who were from Greece and Palestine. This is speculated because one of the famous edicts of Ashoka, carved on a pillar in what is present day Balouchi (Afghani?) territory, is written in both in Greek and Aramaic. There were also Buddhist missionaries who visited Greece, Egypt and other countries in the Mediterranean area. One such visit is documented as late as 20 BCE in Athens. In this account an ambassador from India was accompanied by a Buddhist philosopher who immolated himself (to prove some point of impermanence?). His tomb became a famous tourist attraction and is mentioned by several historians. It has been argued that in St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 13, he alludes to this well known event when he writes, "though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing." I personally think this line of inquiry is fascinating. From garzilli at shore.net Wed May 1 13:59:02 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 09:59:02 -0400 Subject: Filliozat: references Message-ID: <161227024167.23782.10747787868156299255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > remember specific references, but I recall that Filliozat a long time ago > made suggestions re the influence of Hindu [upaniSadic] sources on the > likes of Plato, et al. Does anyone on this list have references to > Filliozat's claims? And, just as important, does anyone know how > classicists have responded to such claims, if at all? > Sincerely, > George Thompson > Besides his famous book *La doctrine classique de la medicine indienne...*, Paris 1949, you might like to see (passim): J. Filliozat, "Les Echanges de l'Inde et de l'Empire Romain aux premier siecles de l'ere chretienne" in *Revue Historique*, Janv.-Mars 1949; idem, "L'Inde et les echanges scientifiques dans l'Antiquite", in *Cahiers d'Histoire mondiale, I, 2, 1953; idem, "Ancient relations between Indian and Foreign Astronomical Systems", in *Journal of Oriental Research*, Madras, XXV, I-IV, 1955-1956; idem, "La valeur des connaissances greco-romains sur l'Inde", in *Journal des Savants*, Avr.-Juin 1981; Bibliographies on his other papers are given in the fns. * * * * * For a short survey and perspectives on the topic, you might like to see: P. Daffina, "India e mondo classico: risultati e prospettive", in *Annali della Facolta di Lettere e Filosofia dell'Universita di Macerata*, X, 1977. On the reaction of classicists you might like to see the wonderful volumes: S. Mazzarino, *Il pensiero storico classico*, 2 vols., Bari 1983. While analyzing the classic thought, he makes important connections between Greek/Latin world and India before and after the Christian era. It should not be forgotten the excellent: J. Andre *L'Inde vue de Rome*, Paris 1996. In the footnotes some Greek references are given. (The location of two quotations, as far as I noticed, is not correctly given, cf. F. Jacoby *Die Fragmente der Griechischen Historiker* -- he also gives connections, especially in his commentary; however, re Andre's location, it can be a typos or a case of "reverse number" -- I briefly discuss this on "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected problems", part 2, fn. 164. See below). A comprehensive survey of the connections (not always correct) between India and the Greek world and a good bibliography is given by: K. Karttunen, *India in Early Greek Literature*, Helsinki 1989 (Studia Orientalia, Vol. 65). This book can be read as a sort of short Encyclopaedia, and Karttunen gives a lot of sources, even though his connections and analysis are not always correct and precise, and sometimes they go against those of the majority of other famous scholars (a fact that *per se* might not be bad at all, on the contrary!:)) * * * * * There are more recent discussions on your topic and more on/of Filliozat, Dumezil, etc. You might like to see the discussion and bibliography in the first and second parts of my paper "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems", in *Indo-Iranian Journal* (in press). I hope it helps. Please forgive my possible typos and the accents' omission, etc. (but I do not claim to have quoted by heart!). For further references please write to me in private. EG Dott. Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) ************************************************************** From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed May 1 15:19:46 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: R: traditional indian architecture Message-ID: <161227024169.23782.15857796834985936786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Traditional Indian Architecture ********************************* 'sacred', 'ritual', 'metaphysical' 'space-time' There must be atleast 1000+ books/reports using these words. (One can search the library catalogs of UT, Austin, UC, Berkeley, UPenn, UChicago, UWisconsin, UWashington, Seattle + European lib.) Frech Institute of Indology, Pondichery published several books (Bruno Dagens, He recently translated a French book on Angkor. Paperback, H. N. Abrams, NY. Inexpensive & good, many photos. H. Brunner?etc.,) I especially liked Michael W. Meister's article in Emily Lyle, Sacred architecture in the traditions of India, China, Judaism & Islam, Edinburgh university press, 1992 (I have the photocopy somewhere) Jan Pieper, Ritual space in India: studies in architectural anthropology, London, 1980, AARp A. Snodgross, Architecture, time and eternity: studies in the stellar and temporal symbolism of traditional buildings, 2v., 1990 Delhi S. Kramrisch, The Hindu temple, G. Michell's Hindu temple, his very recent book on Nayak architecture, and so on .... N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.naas.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed May 1 16:01:13 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 11:01:13 -0500 Subject: R: Arunagirinathar Message-ID: <161227024175.23782.18432389495962316716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/1/96 Arunagirinathar **************** Sujata Ghosh asked for some references. K. Zvelebil, Arunagirinathar - Confessor of beauty New Orient, v. 4, no. 5, p. 155-156, Oct. 1965 He also write a paper on shaktic features of Arunakiri's bhakti and of course, a chapter in "The Smile of Murugan". The only other serious Western study is: Fred Clothey, Quiescence and Passion, the vision of Arunakiri, Tamil mystic. Madurai university, 1984, 159 p. (available in many US universities.) It is very badly printed with many printing errors. It has Kandhar Anubhuti translation and a nice essay on how Tiruppukazh was found and edited. Arunakiri's Kandhar AndhAti is much more difficult piece. On the musical aspects of Arunakiri's songs, many articles are in Jl. of Music Academy, Madras. There are two good commentaries in tamil on the entire Arunakiri corpus. One by Dr. V. S. Chengalvaraya Pillai, son of VadakkuppaTTu cuppiramaNiya pillai who was the one who printed tiruppukazh. Both the father and later the son (incidentally he was first M. A. in tamil from madras univ.) labored their entire lives to print, propagate, preserve tiruppukazh of aruNakiri. M. Arunachalam, (was prof. of saiva siddhanta at bhu, benaras), author of multivolume history of tamil literature in 3000+ pages says that there are many manuscripts that escaped their attention. If new efforts are made for a critical edition many more beautiful Arunakiri songs set to 'tALam' - time measure can be found. My hope is one day, French Institute at Pondichery will do that monumental work with a team of tamil experts. Just like their tEvAram edition. (Those connected with the institute: Please pass on this message.) N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 1 15:19:24 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 11:19:24 -0400 Subject: Conspiracy theory (I) Message-ID: <161227024173.23782.3308371584840349651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > one should realize that > Brian K. Smith believes that the Varna system is a continuity of the IE > tripartite classification a la Dumezil. Whether one agrees with this > thesis, and I personally have grave doubts about this, the Varna could not > be a conspiracy of the Brahmins, or of any one group for that matter, if > it is a continuity of the IE classification. Correct. Apart from that, I would not call it a conspiracy as that would involve secrecy, hypocracy in public, and hidden agendas. On the contrary, the Vedic Brahmins were quite open about their agenda and motives: to form an alliance with the Ksatriyas (brahma-ksatra) in order to exploit the rest of the people. They do so, with Marxist analysis before its day, in the texts composed by them for their own class (and especially their students, including ksatriyas and ... vaisyas!): Read , e.g.: ZB 6.4.4.12-13 Vaizya and ZUdra are the subjects of the Brahmins and the Ksatriyas. -- See also AB 3.11; KB 3.5; 9.5; AB 7.19; 8.7; KB 12.8; 16.4 They say: "why is the brahma-kzatra unstable, the subjects stable?" ... Therefore the Brahmins rule the people insecurely, insecurely also the Kzatriyas; therefore are the subjects stable"; 19.1; TB 3.8.4.3; 9.16.4; BZS 18.2:10; ZZS 14.29.3. For details see W. Rau, Staat und Gesellschaft, Wiesbaden 1957 (!), p. 59-60, 118: many examples of how they exploit the viz (an important item missing in R. Thapar, Lineages), A. Weber, Ind.Stud. 10, 26-35; M. Witzel, Early Sanskritization, in EJVS 1-4 (ejvs-list at shore.net; www.shore.net/~india/ejvs) Note that the Vedic Brahmins pretend to be pre-eminent and semi-independent: "Soma is our king" they say in the royal consecration. They accept orders only from him and not from the king whom they just have consecrated. The texts, however, also stress that the nobility is the "eater" and the Brahmins are their "food", see Rau, Staat, p.34 n.6.-- something similar to the view of the early Buddhist texts about the pre-eminence of the Ksatriyas. > As for B.K. Smith's own > analysis, I think it is historically deficient at least in two ways. It > argues for the continuity of the so-called tripartite classification, > while ignoring the historically most important fact that the word Varna, > before it is applied to Brahmanas, Kzatriyas, VaiSyas and Suudras, appears > to have been applied to a two-fold classification, i.e. Arya-varna and > Dasa-varna in the Rigveda. Secondly, it ignores the entire discussion of > the possibility that a good deal of Jati categories may go back to > pre-Aryan past. It should be noted that the *fourfold* varna classification appears only in the *late* Rgveda (Purusa hymn, 10.90) and the word zuudra is found there for the very first time. All of this is part of the late Rgvedic Bharata/Kuru "reform", see above on the Kurus. ============================================================================= durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================= Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 496 8571 EJVS-list at shore.net email: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (or: WWW: http:// www.shore.net/~india/ejvs Editor, Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik (Reinbek, Germany) Editor, Indo-Iranian Journal (Dordrecht, Netherlands) Editor, Harvard Oriental Series (Cambridge, Massachusetts) Mng.Ed., International Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts) ============================================================================= From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 1 15:21:57 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 11:21:57 -0400 Subject: Conspiracy theory (II) Message-ID: <161227024171.23782.13709402233942621964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: >> work related to the > > 'conspiracy theory' of brahminical orthodoxy I'd like to mention Brian K. > > Smith's very detailed work "Classifying the Universe" (Oxford 1994). > > There is a fairly detailed and hard-hitting critique of > > this work, written by Vidyanath Rao, at the following > > webpage... http://spirit.encomix.com/Spirit/Veda/classifying-universum.html> > > Please note that this ``review'' must be considered as not completely > finished (although I won't finish in the near future, not till I finish > reading kaTha, maitraayani and jaimaniiya, god only knows when). CORRECT! These (largely) untranslated texts are usually neglected by "Smith and several others". > My main complaint about Smith's work (and several others), is that > there is apparently no attempt to collect all relevant material and > then see how many are confirming instances, how many are irrelevant > and how many are `rejecting' instances. This is especially apropos > as the name of Popper has been mentioned in this thread. I could not agree more. The materials in his "work and several others" are selective (almost exclusively from translated sources) and there is no attempt to collect counter-evidence. Proceeding in this fashion, of course, you can posit and "prove" anything... As a certain American colleague once told us about his own work: "I am happy if I can amuse them for a year or two". For the "several others" see the collected articles "Authority, Anxiety and Canon" ed. L. Patton, SUNY 1994 and cf. the recent, very critical review by J.W. de Jong, in the last issue of the Indo-Iranian Journal (1996) ============================================================================= durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================= Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 4968571 EJVS-list at shore.net email: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (or: WWW: http:// www.shore.net/~india/ejvs Editor, Indo-Iranian Journal (Dordrecht, Netherlands) Editor, Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik (Reinbek, Germany) Editor, Harvard Oriental Series (Cambridge, Massachusetts) Mng.Ed., International Journal of Tantric Studies (www.shore.net/~india/ijts) ============================================================================= From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed May 1 11:25:29 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 11:25:29 +0000 Subject: address requests Message-ID: <161227024157.23782.12176409082266715044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 1 May 1996, purushottama bilimoria wrote: > Yes, I too wish I had the leisure of being a Spalding professor, [...] Ouch! Dominik From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 1 10:26:20 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 11:26:20 +0100 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024155.23782.5102200662036314905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Things being rather quiet on this list, I have been roaming, and have come >across another group discussing Lefkowitz's new book "Not Out of Africa", >which attacks, from a classicist's point of view, Afrocentric claims about >the sources of Greek culture. Very wild and very reckless discussions go on >there, mostly not very interesting or informative. But it occurred to me >that there is a new angle that may be of interest not only to classicists >and africanists, but to indologists as well. Unfortunately, I don't >remember specific references, but I recall that Filliozat a long time ago >made suggestions re the influence of Hindu [upaniSadic] sources on the >likes of Plato, et al. Does anyone on this list have references to >Filliozat's claims? And, just as important, does anyone know how >classicists have responded to such claims, if at all? I, for one, would certainly be interested in Filliozat's views on this. There are ideas in Plato that would remind us of Indic thinking (e.g. his theory on the philosophers, warriors and commoners), and this phenomenon has been discussed by other too, I believe. See, i.a., Bruce Lincoln, Myth, Cosmos and Society, Harvard University Press, 1986. The question is: Did Plato "borrow" ideas from India, or do certain Indic and Platonic ideas go back to a common source, the Indo-European culture. I should personally think that the latter might be the case. Those who are interested would perhaps like to read the studies by Georges Dumezil, who has written extensively on Indo-European culture. Dumezil's theories have not been accepted by everybody, but even if one disagrees with him, they still make interesting and stimulating reading. Here are a few of his titles: G. Dumezil (1952). Les dieux des indo-europeens. Paris. Georges Dumezil (1954). Rituels indo-europeens a Rome. Paris. Georges Dumezil (1959). Le rex et les flamines maiores. La regalita sacra. Leiden, E. J. Brill. Georges Dumezil (1974). La religion romaine archaique. Paris, 2 ed.. Georges Dumezil (1968). Mythe et Epopee. L'ideologie des trois fonctions dans les epopees des peuples indo-europeens. Paris, Gallimard. 5 ed.. 2 volumes. A comprehensive survey of Dumezilian ideas is given in C. Scott Littleton (1982). The New Comparative Mythology. An Anthropological Assessment of the Theories of Georges Dumezil. Berkeley, Los Angeles, London, University of California Press. 319 pages. The following article might also be of interest: Emily B. Lyle (1982). "Dumezil's Three Functions and Indo-European Cosmic Structure." History of Religions, 22(1): 25-44. Any other references to this exciting theme out there? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From bthorp at plains.nodak.edu Wed May 1 17:23:33 1996 From: bthorp at plains.nodak.edu (Burt M Thorp) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 12:23:33 -0500 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024177.23782.18001720931936490631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course the difficulty with Indian influence on Plato would be to trace how those ideas got to him before Alexander went to India--but I recall the notion was discussed long ago; perhaps someone with access to a godd library could locate a reference? Burt M. Thorp University of North Dakota Internet: bthorp at plains.nodak.edu From jl6 at soas.ac.uk Wed May 1 12:26:42 1996 From: jl6 at soas.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 12:26:42 +0000 Subject: Filliozat, Dumezil + the IE connection Message-ID: <161227024162.23782.6276934501943334126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >The question is: Did >Plato "borrow" ideas from India, or do certain Indic and Platonic ideas go >back to a common source, the Indo-European culture. ... >Those who are interested would >perhaps like to read the studies by Georges Dumezil, who has written >extensively on Indo-European culture. Dumezil's theories have not been >accepted by everybody, but even if one disagrees with him, they still make >interesting and stimulating reading. ====================================== May I add a recent article (March 1995) by Nick Allen in which he draws on the work of Dumezil to compare two versions -- one Greek, one Indian -- of a hero's journey? [My summary:] In the Odyssey, the hero's wanderings lead to four encounters with female figures in addition to his relationship with Penelope, his legal wife. In the Mahabharata, the exiled Arjuna's pilgrimage to the holy bathing places of India leads to a parallel set of four encounters with females in addition to his relationship with Draupadi, his primary wife. After pointing out the major differences between the two narratives, Allen proceeds to tease out in precise detail the distribution of similarities. These parallels are interesting enough, but Allen goes further. Returning to Dumezil's three classical 'functions' or 'clusters of ideas', he outlines his own proposition of a fourth functiion that can be either positively valued (hence 'transcendent') or negatively valued (hence the associations with death, destruction, demons and so on). He then turns to the eight types of marriage listed in the Manusmrti, with svayamvara as the ninth, reducing the nine to five 'modes of marriage'. As he demonstrates, these five reflect the classical three 'functions' together with both a positive and a negative value for the fourth. Finally, he compares these five 'modes of marriage' with the various relationships of the two epic heroes. Allen concludes that the Proto-Indo-European corpus of oral narratives includes the voyage of a hero who temporarily leaves his wife and contracts four different types of liaison. He argues further that, of the Greek and Sanskrit versions derived from this, the Sanskrit is likely to be the more conservative, the one closer to their common Indo-European heritage. I would add that, for studies of Indian culture, this mythical gloss on the classical forms of marriage is an exciting addition to the study of the 'laws' of Manu. The above article is included in MYTH AND MYTHMAKING: CONTINUOUS EVOLUTION IN INDIAN TRADITION, edited by Julia Leslie (London: Curzon, 1995) in the SOAS Collected Papers on South Asia series, no.12. Contents: Julia Leslie: Introduction N.J. Allen: The Hero's Five Relationship: A Proto-Indo-European Story Laurie L. Patton: The Fate of the Female Rsi: Portraits of Lopamudra Renate Sohnen-Thieme: The Ahalya Story through the Ages Lynn Thomas: Parasurama and Time Julia Leslie: Menstruation Myths Peter G. Friedlander: The Struggle for Salvation in the Hagiographies of Ravidas Indira Chowdhury-Sengupta: Reconstructing Spiritual Heroism: The Evolution of the Swadeshi Sannyasi in Bengal Kathleen Taylor: Arthur Avalon: The Creation of a Legendary Orientalist ========================================== Anyone interested in brief summaries of any/all of the other articles in the volume, just let me know. Julia Leslie SOAS From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Wed May 1 10:57:32 1996 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 12:57:32 +0200 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024160.23782.17988862481531451944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is not a direct answer to your message and I am no authority for giving any personnal answer but I feel one (posthumous) book from prof. Jean Filiozat and prof. Jacques Andre' has to be mentionned in this thread: _L'Inde vue de Rome_, _Textes latins de l'Antiquite' relatifs a` l'Inde_, Paris, Socie'te' d'E'dition "Les Belles Lettres", 1986. At 02:20 01/05/1996 BST, you wrote: >Things being rather quiet on this list, I have been roaming, and have come >across another group discussing Lefkowitz's new book "Not Out of Africa", >which attacks, from a classicist's point of view, Afrocentric claims about >the sources of Greek culture. Very wild and very reckless discussions go on >there, mostly not very interesting or informative. But it occurred to me >that there is a new angle that may be of interest not only to classicists >and africanists, but to indologists as well. Unfortunately, I don't >remember specific references, but I recall that Filliozat a long time ago >made suggestions re the influence of Hindu [upaniSadic] sources on the >likes of Plato, et al. Does anyone on this list have references to >Filliozat's claims? And, just as important, does anyone know how >classicists have responded to such claims, if at all? >Sincerely, >George Thompson > > > > > From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed May 1 18:39:53 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 13:39:53 -0500 Subject: Nirukta Message-ID: <161227024179.23782.15120161951727557860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members, The discussion on kaarikaa has proven of such interest, and now the Filiozat one as well, that I hesitate to burden the list with yet another thread. However, time constraints require otherwise. I am curious about resources, whether ancient or modern, which discuss the role and function of Yaaska's Nirukta, specifically his citations of shruti, with regard to the texts upon which it acts as a "commentary" of sorts. In specific, discussions in the early Sanskrit grammatical tradition would be of interest (those prior to 500 c.e. or so), as well as discurvie studies by later academe which address this matter. I am particularly curious as to any studies which attend to his choice of shruti passages. This comes to mind viz. N 1.4, the citation there from RV 8.2.12, used to demonstrate "na" in the comparative sense. This passage struck me as a curious choice when, in 8.2.2, there is far clearer indication of "na" as a comparative (sadly, I am at my office and do not have the text in hand for quoting). 8.2.12, on the other hand, is far less obviously so (cf. Sayana, Ludwig, Griffith, et. al). As a result, I am interested to know if there were studies on these specfic choices (e.g. why this mantra and not that one), and on how his text was viewed as a whole and with particular regard to mantra selection. In advance, I thank the participants on this list. John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed May 1 21:27:17 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 16:27:17 -0500 Subject: Paper abstract Message-ID: <161227024183.23782.9793562166081171410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I have posted below a portion of the paper presented by Prof. John Richards, Duke University, at the South Asia Seminar, Asian Studies, the University of TX at Austin. If you would like to read the full paper I have posted it at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/india/JohnRichards'Indian.html " Early Modern India and World History". John F. Richards Duke University convenience 1500 to 1800-- of our present era human societies shared in and were affected by several world-wide processes of change unprecedented in their scope and intensity. Along with many other historians, I call these centuries early modern. We distinguish this period from the earlier medieval centuries preceding and the modern nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Whether we are now in a post-modern period is a matter of conjec- ture, at least in my view. Contrary to many scholars, I do not regard this periodization as driven by purely Europcentric considerations. The term early modern is merely an attempt to capture the reality of rapid, massive change in the way humans organized themselves and interacted with other human beings and with the natural world. For South Asian history I believe it makes a good deal of sense to use the term early modern instead of Mughal India, or late medieval India, or late precolonial India for the sixteenth through the eighteenth centuries. To do so would help in reducing the extent to which India is seen as exceptional, unique, exotic and somehow detached from world history. In this essay, I will set out the prevailing attributes of the early modern world as seen from a global perspective and then try to place India (or South Asia) within its own context in the early modern world. I am convinced ... *** http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/india/JohnRichards'Indian.html Thanks. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From athr at loc.gov Wed May 1 21:05:52 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 17:05:52 -0400 Subject: address requests Message-ID: <161227024181.23782.3603129215325643905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tony Stewart's email address is tony_stewart at ncsu.edu. Allen Thrasher On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Loriliai Biernacki wrote: > Does anyone have the email addresses of Alexis Sanderson at Oxford and of > Tony Stewart? > Thanks in advance > > Loriliai Biernacki > University of Pennsylvania > > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 2 00:10:48 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 17:10:48 -0700 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024187.23782.9546147010682242647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > There were also Buddhist missionaries who visited Greece, Egypt and other > countries in the Mediterranean area. One such visit is documented as late > as 20 BCE in Athens. In this account an ambassador from India was > accompanied by a Buddhist philosopher who immolated himself (to prove some > point of impermanence?). His tomb became a famous tourist attraction and Isn't "kalanos, the gymnosophist," who went with Alexander, also supposed to have immolated himself? I thought there was some speculation that he was a Jaina. S. Vidyasankar From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Wed May 1 08:32:57 1996 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 18:32:57 +1000 Subject: address requests Message-ID: <161227024153.23782.165018830832152720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, Loriliai Biernacki wrote: > > > Does anyone have the email addresses of Alexis Sanderson at Oxford and of > > Tony Stewart? > > I believe that Alexis disdains to use email. :-) I don't know about Tony > Stewart. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > > Yes, I too wish I had the leisure of being a Spalding professor, recline back with a cigar, and save even the ink from my pen lest the natives come to learn too much. From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu May 2 00:04:04 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Wed, 01 May 96 20:04:04 -0400 Subject: Plato, Dumezil, et al. Message-ID: <161227024185.23782.15892000327767184225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse is right to distinguish between inherited ideas and borrowed ones. I do not think that Filliozat was concerned with inherited ideas [I don't recall mention of Dumezil, for example]. Instead, as I recall, he asserted the possibility of more or less direct borrowing, just as the French Iranist Duchesne-Guillemin argued that direct borrowing by Greek philosophers [like Heraclitus] from Iran was not out of the question. What I am interested in is the notion of a *borrowing*. Borrowing, of course, is difficult to prove, and I don't imagine that many classicists have been persuaded by such arguments [often vague and general] as have been offered so far. For example, I know that in the case of Duchesne-Guillemin, the classicist M.L. West has expressed skepticism [and I think reasonable skepticism!]. Burkert, on the other hand [and a classicist!], in discussing Near Eastern influences on archaic Greece, has noted a great deal of resistence from Classicists .... The ramifications are interesting.... Sincerely, George Thompson From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Thu May 2 09:04:00 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 04:04:00 -0500 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024194.23782.15929218944228204621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "O. Freiberger" asked: >>as 20 BCE in Athens. In this account an ambassador from India was >>accompanied by a Buddhist philosopher who immolated himself >Could you please give the textual source for this information? At the turn of the century and for a few decades after, there was quite a bit of scholarly activity that attempted to trace Buddhist influence in early Christianity. As well, in the 60's and 70's there was quite a bit of "comparative religion" type work done on the two religions and their similarities, etc. Unfortunately, from where I sit right now, I do not have access to the exact source of the Athens immolation tale. I do remember seeing the reference in several of the books that I consulted, when I had looked into the issue several years ago. Perhaps this bibilography will help: Lillie, Arthur, _Buddhism in Christendom or Jesus, the Essene_ Unity Book Service, New Delhi:1984 (first published in 1887). - _India in Primitive Christianity_ Kegan House, Tr?bner & Co.: 1909. Lopez, Donald S. & Rockefeller, Steven C., eds., _The Christ and the Bodhisattva_ State University of New York: 1987. Pye, Michael & Morgan, Robert, eds., _The Cardinal Meaning, Essays in Comparative Hermeneutics: Buddhism and Christianity_ Mouton & Co., Netherlands: 1973. Radhakrishnan, S., _Eastern Religions in Western Thought_ Oxford University Press: 1939. Streeter, Burnett H., _The Buddha and The Christ, an Exploration of the Meaning of the Universe and of the Purpose of Human Life_ Macmillan and Co., London: 1932. Tambyah, Isaac T., _A Comparative Study of Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity_ Indian Book Gallery, Delhi: 1983 (first edition1925). Yu, Chai-shin, _Early Buddhism and Christianity, A comparative Study of the Founders' Authority, the Community, and the Discipline_ Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi: 1981. In his message S. Vidyasankar wrote: >Isn't "kalanos, the gymnosophist," who went with Alexander, also supposed to have immolated himself? Perhaps Vidya could provide a textual source for this reference? Hope this helps. Yvette (Interesting stuff, isn't it?) From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Thu May 2 06:50:38 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 07:50:38 +0100 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024189.23782.9534296794725977060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is another way to look at the question of the influence of the Upani.sads on Plato. The influence may be the other way. The redating of the Buddha to the fifth century (just possibly later) reduces the evidence for the early dating of the Upani.sads. Using Buddhist sources alone, there is no reason to date them earlier than the fifth century. Indeed such a date depends on the assumption that the oldest Buddhist texts do in fact date substantially from close to the time of the Buddha. For those who think they may have developed over a period around the third century there would be no reason to date the earliest Upani.sads before this. The dating of Jain materials is largely dependent on the dating of Buddhist literature. So my question has to be: do we really have adequate evidence from Brahmanical sources for the dating of the Upani.sads before the third century B.C. ? It is not a question of Plato, I think. Most of the relevant ideas have a history of some centuries among Greeks. If one asks about the mechanisms for diffusion, there are clearly many. For example captured or rebel Greek populations may have been resettled in the North-West by Persian emperors. Trade was clearly going on to some extent. The alphabet diffuses to India in this period. Needless to say, there is nothing 'European' about the Greeks. In any case there can be little doubt that much Greek knowledge e.g. in medicine, mathematics and astronomy derives from the fertile crescent. It may well be that religious ideas came from there too. (Some certainly did.) Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu May 2 14:10:12 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 08:10:12 -0600 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024201.23782.13087961423937638826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yvette Rosser wrote: > > >At the turn of the century and for a few decades after, there was quite a >bit of scholarly activity that attempted to trace Buddhist influence in >early Christianity. As well, in the 60's and 70's there was quite a bit of >"comparative religion" type work done on the two religions and their >similarities, etc. > >Unfortunately, from where I sit right now, I do not have access to the >exact source of the Athens immolation tale. I do remember seeing the >reference in several of the books that I consulted, when I had looked into >the issue several years ago. Perhaps this bibilography will help: > >Lillie, Arthur, _Buddhism in Christendom or Jesus, the Essene_ Unity Book >Service, New Delhi:1984 (first published in 1887). > > - _India in Primitive Christianity_ Kegan House, Tr|bner & Co.: 1909. > >Lopez, Donald S. & Rockefeller, Steven C., eds., _The Christ and the >Bodhisattva_ State University of New York: 1987. > >Pye, Michael & Morgan, Robert, eds., _The Cardinal Meaning, Essays in >Comparative Hermeneutics: Buddhism and Christianity_ Mouton & Co., >Netherlands: 1973. > >Radhakrishnan, S., _Eastern Religions in Western Thought_ Oxford University >Press: 1939. > >Streeter, Burnett H., _The Buddha and The Christ, an Exploration of the >Meaning of the Universe and of the Purpose of Human Life_ Macmillan and >Co., London: 1932. > >Tambyah, Isaac T., _A Comparative Study of Hinduism, Buddhism and >Christianity_ Indian Book Gallery, Delhi: 1983 (first edition1925). > >Yu, Chai-shin, _Early Buddhism and Christianity, A comparative Study of the >Founders' Authority, the Community, and the Discipline_ Motilal >Banarsidass, Delhi: 1981. > >In his message S. Vidyasankar wrote: > >>Isn't "kalanos, the gymnosophist," who went with Alexander, also supposed to >have immolated himself? > >Perhaps Vidya could provide a textual source for this reference? > >Hope this helps. >Yvette > >(Interesting stuff, isn't it?) > > wow! very, very interesting. I wonder about the theories of exchanges of ideas in astronomy. _ Narahari Achar. From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu May 2 15:48:40 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 08:48:40 -0700 Subject: Bharhut stupa Message-ID: <161227024206.23782.15051380674187829797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Surely the place to start is Heinrich Lu:der's Bharhut und die Buddhistische Literatur (Abhandlungen fu:r die Kunde des Morgenlandes 26.3, 1941 (reprinted by Kraus, 1966); and his (posthumously published) Bharhut Inscriptions, vol. 2.2 of the Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum (Ootacamund, 1963). R. Salomon On Thu, 2 May 1996, Francois Quiviger wrote: > > Dear Indologists, > > I am writingh on behalf of a colleague who is not on this list. > The Photographic collection of the Warburg Institute - an iconographic > index of Western art, which is at the moment expanding towards the East - > has recently inherited a collection of excellent photographs of the > Bharhut stupa. In order to identify the subject of the sculptures we are > looking for expert advice on a reliable book. Can anyone suggest a good > title? > > You can either reply to the list or directly to my colleague (Paul > Taylor (ptaylor at sas.ac.uk). > > With many thanks in advance. > > > Francois Quiviger > Assistant Librarian > The Warburg Institute > University of London > > > > From Oliver.Freiberger at uni-bayreuth.de Thu May 2 06:59:14 1996 From: Oliver.Freiberger at uni-bayreuth.de (O. Freiberger) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 08:59:14 +0200 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024192.23782.4349303959608240894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Y.R. Rani (Yvette C. Rosser?) wrote: >There were also Buddhist missionaries who visited Greece, Egypt and other >countries in the Mediterranean area. One such visit is documented as late >as 20 BCE in Athens. In this account an ambassador from India was >accompanied by a Buddhist philosopher who immolated himself (to prove some >point of impermanence?). Could you please give the textual source for this information? This very early date of a recorded visit is new to me. Oliver From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Thu May 2 17:21:06 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 10:21:06 -0700 Subject: OM Symbol pictorial collections or files Message-ID: <161227024210.23782.12973875382403876078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anyone know of a collection (book, files, visual references, etc) of classic or modern OM symbols? Hinduism Today has a small collection on their web page, but reproductions of historical symbols seem hard to come by. Any references will be appreciated, especially if from available sources. Thanks, Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From athr at loc.gov Thu May 2 15:04:43 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 11:04:43 -0400 Subject: Bharhut stupa Message-ID: <161227024208.23782.4107578067855255161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following should help: AUTHOR: Barua, Beni Madhab, 1888-1948. TITLE: Barhut PLACE: Calcutta : PUBLISHER: s.n., YEAR: 1934 1937 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 3 v. : 99 pl. ; 29 cm. SERIES: Indian Research Institute publications. Fine arts series ; 1-3 NOTES: Includes bibliographical references and index. v. 1. Stone as a story-teller -- v. 2. Jataka-scenes -- v. 3. Aspects of life and art. Microfilm. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Library Microreproduction Service, 1990. 1 microfilm reel : negative ; 35 mm. SUBJECT: Art, Buddhist. Bas-relief. Bharhut (India) -- Topes. Next Record TITLE: Genshi Bukkyo bijutsu zuten = Ancient Buddhist sites of Sanchi & Barhut / PLACE: Tokyo : PUBLISHER: Yuzankaku, YEAR: 1991 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 421 p., [13] p. of plates : chiefly ill. (some col.), map ; 27 cm. NOTES: Colophon inserted. Includes bibliographical references (p. 420). ISBN: 4639010729 : SUBJECT: Sculpture, Buddhist -- India -- Pictorial works. Art, Indic -- Pictorial works. Art, Buddhist -- India -- Pictorial works. Sanchi Site (India) OTHER: Oki, Morihiro, 1929- Ito, Shoji, 1944- Ancient Buddhist sites of Sanchi & Barhut. AUTHOR: Foucher, A. (Alfred), 1865-1952. TITLE: Les representations de "Jatakas" sur les bas-reliefs de Barhut, PLACE: Paris, PUBLISHER: E. Leroux, YEAR: 1908 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2 p. l., 52 p. illus. 19 cm. NOTES: "Extrait de la Bibliotheque de vulgarisations du Musee Guimet, t. XXX, 1908." "Bibliographie sommaire": p. 52. SUBJECT: Art, Buddhist. Bas-relief. Bharahat (India) -- Topes. OTHER: Jatakas. Next Record AUTHOR: Barua, Beni Madhab, 1888-1948. TITLE: Barhut / PLACE: Patna : PUBLISHER: Indological Book Corp., YEAR: 1979 1937 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 103, 178, 94 p., [51] leaves of plates : ill. ; 28 cm. SERIES: Indian Research Institute, Calcutta. Publications. Fine arts series, no. 1-3. NOTES: Reprint of the 1934-37 ed. published by Indian Research Institute, Calcutta, which was issued as no. 1-3 of Fine arts series. Bibliography: p. [88] (last group). Stone as a story-teller.--Jataka-scenes.--Aspects of life and art. SUBJECT: Art, Buddhist. Bas-relief. Bharahat (India) -- Topes. Next Record AUTHOR: Barua, Beni Madhab, 1888-1948. TITLE: Barhut inscriptions, PLACE: [Calcutta] PUBLISHER: University of Calcutta, YEAR: 1926 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 139 p. 25 cm. SUBJECT: Inscriptions, Pali. Inscriptions -- India -- Bharhut. OTHER: Sinha, Gangananda, joint author. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov On Thu, 2 May 1996, Francois Quiviger wrote: > > Dear Indologists, > > I am writingh on behalf of a colleague who is not on this list. > The Photographic collection of the Warburg Institute - an iconographic > index of Western art, which is at the moment expanding towards the East - > has recently inherited a collection of excellent photographs of the > Bharhut stupa. In order to identify the subject of the sculptures we are > looking for expert advice on a reliable book. Can anyone suggest a good > title? > > You can either reply to the list or directly to my colleague (Paul > Taylor (ptaylor at sas.ac.uk). > > With many thanks in advance. > > > Francois Quiviger > Assistant Librarian > The Warburg Institute > University of London > > > > From francois at sas.ac.uk Thu May 2 11:36:54 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 12:36:54 +0100 Subject: Bharhut stupa Message-ID: <161227024196.23782.12863729870085227306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am writingh on behalf of a colleague who is not on this list. The Photographic collection of the Warburg Institute - an iconographic index of Western art, which is at the moment expanding towards the East - has recently inherited a collection of excellent photographs of the Bharhut stupa. In order to identify the subject of the sculptures we are looking for expert advice on a reliable book. Can anyone suggest a good title? You can either reply to the list or directly to my colleague (Paul Taylor (ptaylor at sas.ac.uk). With many thanks in advance. Francois Quiviger Assistant Librarian The Warburg Institute University of London From kichenas at math.umn.edu Thu May 2 18:58:21 1996 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 13:58:21 -0500 Subject: FW: A Bookreference Message-ID: <161227024212.23782.1044953602085982039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to Leo Facq's query, I think the book in question is Devavanipravesika : an introduction to the Sanskrit language by Robert P. Goldman with Sally J. Sutherland (1987, second printing with corrections: 1992) Distributed by: Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies, Publications Program 2223 Fulton Street, 3rd floor University of California Berkeley, CA 94720 (Library of Congress Catalog Number 81-68583) I hope this helps. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota 127 Vincent Hall 206 Church Street, S. E. Minneapolis, MN 55455-0487 E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu From Leofacq at msn.com Thu May 2 14:58:10 1996 From: Leofacq at msn.com (Leo Facq) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 14:58:10 +0000 Subject: FW: A Bookreference Message-ID: <161227024203.23782.16916756741305507587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- From: Leo Sent: woensdag 1 mei 1996 17:41 To: 'indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk' Subject: A Bookreference Dear Indologists, I'm currently looking for the following book "Devavaa.niipravezikaa" by Goldman and (second name unknown to me). Could anyone give me full references on this book, which I need to acquire ASAP. Please list publisher , ISN number (if available) and possibly a bookshop I can order it from, preferably in Europe Many Thanks ahead, Leo Facq leofacq at msn.com From athr at loc.gov Thu May 2 19:00:18 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 15:00:18 -0400 Subject: Useful Japanese scholars' directory Message-ID: <161227024213.23782.3505682457989760229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of Indology and SACAP may be interested in the following serial that has recently come across my desk: Directory of Buddhist and Indic Studies in Japan Tokyo: The Centre for East Asian Cultural Studies for Unesco, the Toyo Bunko 1994 ISBN [sic, but we're treating it as a serial] 4-89656-211-9 The list of scholars is alphabetical (no cross-indexing by specialty, institution, etc.) and for each is given: Name in Roman and Kanji, title, institution, address, and specialty (in English only). The preface indicates it is intended to update it (no periodicity specified) and that in the interim the information will be kept on a computer for constant updating. Address: The Centre for East Asian Cultural Studies for Unesco The Toyo Bunko (Oriental Library) Honkomagome 2-28-21, Bunkyo-ku Tokyo 113, Japan Allen Thrasher From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu May 2 14:06:22 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 15:06:22 +0100 Subject: Plato, Dumezil, et al. Message-ID: <161227024198.23782.5769178573266132155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars Martin Fosse is right to distinguish between inherited ideas and >borrowed ones. I do not think that Filliozat was concerned with inherited >ideas [I don't recall mention of Dumezil, for example]. Instead, as I >recall, he asserted the possibility of more or less direct borrowing, just >as the French Iranist Duchesne-Guillemin argued that direct borrowing by >Greek philosophers [like Heraclitus] from Iran was not out of the question. >What I am interested in is the notion of a *borrowing*. Borrowing, of >course, is difficult to prove, and I don't imagine that many classicists >have been persuaded by such arguments [often vague and general] as have >been offered so far. For example, I know that in the case of >Duchesne-Guillemin, the classicist M.L. West has expressed skepticism [and >I think reasonable skepticism!]. Burkert, on the other hand [and a >classicist!], in discussing Near Eastern influences on archaic Greece, has >noted a great deal of resistence from Classicists .... The ramifications >are interesting.... I recently read Burkert's book on Greek religion and found it very stimulating. I think there are certain things that we should remember about the Greeks: They communicated widely with the rest of the Mediterranean world, not only with Mesopotamia and the Persian empire (read Cornelius Nepos' stories about how Greek generals were busy travelling back and forth to fight against or for the great king), but also with Egypt, which they admired immensely (read Herodotus). It would be unnatural to assume that they were not influenced to some degree by these contacts, and we should also remember that the Greeks must have been influenced by the Mediterranean population they met when they migrated into Greece. Thus, when we say that certain ideas are inherited rather than borrowed, we must assume that this is the most natural explanation in those cases. Now, there are certain ideas that tend to pop up all over the Indo-European area, and in such cases there is in my opinion a greater probability that the idea is inherited rather than borrowed. An important consideration in this connection is also, in my opinion, how willing a culture was to absorb foreign ideas. Usually, peoples with a strong cultural self-image do not absorb a lot of foreign ideas, whereas peoples with a less strong self-image eagerly model themselves on some cultural super-power, e.g. the Hittites, who were very strongly influenced by Babylonian culture. The Greeks do not appear to have had a "deficient" self-image, which in my view strengthens the assumption that certain "Indo-European" ideas were inherited rather than borrowed from a neighbouring culture. I think that Burkert reduces the importance of the Indo-European tradition too much, but he is certainly right that influences from other Mediterranean cultures should be considered as alternative explanations. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu May 2 20:58:22 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 16:58:22 -0400 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024215.23782.10137553356133855337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oliver Freiberger asked for reference to Kalanos the gymnosophist. Filliozat [in an article "La mort volontaire par le feu et la tradition bouddhique indienne", in JA 1963 pp.21-51; reprinted in the collection of articles translated into English by Shukla] cites Strabo, Geography XV, 1,4 & 68; Arrian's Anabasis VII.1; and Diodorus Siculus XVII.107. I might add that there are interesting references to Indian sages in Philostratus' Life of Apollonius of Tyana as well. However, all of these sources are much later than Plato, and in fact after Alexander the Great. The sources cited by Enrica Garzilli surely will supply many more references. But are there any that can be said to precede Plato? Lance Cousins may well be right that "it is not a matter of Plato", nor, for my purposes, even of the UpaniSads [as opposed to Buddhist sources]. There also may be good reason to suggest that the influence has gone in both directions, as he suggests. And furthermore,it is possible that "most of the relevant ideas have a history of some centuries among Greeks." I do not claim to be competent to judge these things. However, *if* borrowing could be established, before the time of Alexander, then the ramifications are much more forceful: particular Greeks have *borrowed* particular ideas from this or that particular "Indian." Unlike arguments from an inherited past, or from a vague Zeitgeist, *borrowing* is difficult to dismiss. The Greek miracle will have been brought into the larger universe, unambiguously. That is why I am trying to find reference to a Filliozat article [if it exists?] that attempts to establish a borrowing. I admit that borrowing is a more difficult thing to prove, but, if proved, one gains more from it, at least from my point of view. Sincerely, George Thompson From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Thu May 2 23:19:16 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 17:19:16 -0600 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024218.23782.7220624889294778406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >However, *if* borrowing could be >established, before the time of Alexander, then the ramifications are much >more forceful: particular Greeks have *borrowed* particular ideas from this >or that particular "Indian." IF there is such univocal evidence, I'm not aware of it (but would love to know about it). But the problem runs deeper. There are many theories about where, for instance, Plato got his ideas, including a stint he may have done in Egypt, learning the secrets of Egyptian priests, etc., which, some have claimed, was the source for his notion of forms. There are suggestive materials, but nothing hard and fast. Since some believe that Indian ideas were known and studied in Egypt, here is another suggestive link -- with little solid documentation to support it. Another question is: How "Greek" is Greek philosphy? Most of the important preSocratic philosophers did not live in Greece proper. What was going on in Asia Minor (present day Turkey)? Pythagoras has his "revelation" about tuning theory while there (overhearing a blacksmith pounding on some iron implements), and he spent his later years in Italy. Thales, Anaxemander, et al. were strewn throughout the Mediterranean world, leaving them open to all sorts of non-Greek influences. If by "Greek" we mean simply the lingua-franca of the Mediterranean, so that "Greek philosophy" means Mediterranean philosophy written or recorded in Greek, then we are back looking at trade routes, etc., and noting the non-Greek (potential) influences that were streaming into the "Greek" [Mediterranean] world (and vice versa). Even if we take "Greek" to mean some sort of ethnic or cultural (Hellenic) expansion throughout the Mediterranean, via establishment of city-states, etc., we are still left with a wider geographical realm within which to look for influences than Greece proper. That complicates matters since whose records do we rely on? And how much that could have proved helpful was lost with the Alexandrian library? Another question is: What was going on in Central Asia (through which the people with the ideas would have had to come)? Pre-Islamic Central Asian history is still a somewhat murky, under-developed field, and Pre-Alexandrian Central Asian history is virtually a black hole in scholarship. It will be hard to nail down precise, documentable borrowings until we can determine with some greater specificity what was going on (and through) Central Asia, Egypt, Asia Minor, and the Mediterranean in general. Fascinating stuff on which to speculate though. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College lusthaus at macalstr.edu From AmitaSarin at aol.com Thu May 2 23:34:39 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 19:34:39 -0400 Subject: The IE connection Message-ID: <161227024220.23782.16988057808718472797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julia Leslie mentioned an article by Nick Allen comparing two versions of a hero's journey -- one Greek and one Indian. The Odyssey is compared here to the Mahabharata. Is there any literature comparing the Ramayana to the Odyssey? Surely the many parallels between the two epics have been commented on Amita Sarin From clay at m-net.arbornet.org Fri May 3 00:17:55 1996 From: clay at m-net.arbornet.org (clay at m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Thu, 02 May 96 20:17:55 -0400 Subject: OM Symbol pictorial collections or files Message-ID: <161227024222.23782.3680595099051898962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stan Rice, I have created a stoneware sculpture using the symbol om; it measures about 42" in diameter and 4' thick. You can see this work at http://rivendell.org/jim.html and within the same group of webpages is another sculpture which I call the 'patriot'; it toois based upon sanskrit symbols. Enjoy, and I would be interested in your comments and other links to similar type work that you are aware of online. Best Wishes, jim cuddeback > > Dear Indologists, > Does anyone know of a collection (book, files, visual references, etc) > of classic or modern OM symbols? Hinduism Today has a small collection > on their web page, but reproductions of historical symbols seem hard > to come by. Any references will be appreciated, especially if from > available sources. > Thanks, Stan Rice > > -- > Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com > > > > > -- Hand-crafted Unique Remembrance Memorials http://m-net.arbornet.org/~clay To view memorials: | E-mail: http://rivendell.org/jim.html | clay at m-net.arbornet.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- From HFArnold at aol.com Fri May 3 04:37:10 1996 From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 00:37:10 -0400 Subject: Filliozat Message-ID: <161227024223.23782.11727868403944357813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson writes on 5/1/96: > Things being rather quiet on this list, I have been roaming, and have come > across another group discussing Lefkowitz's new book "Not Out of Africa", > which attacks, from a classicist's point of view, Afrocentric claims about > the sources of Greek culture. > Very wild and very reckless discussions go on there, mostly not very >interesting or >informative. Looks interesting to me. Where is it? Harold F. Arnold From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Fri May 3 18:04:39 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 11:04:39 -0700 Subject: OM Symbol pictorial collections or files Message-ID: <161227024230.23782.13508064797215678207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jim, Thanks for the note. I will give a look. Best, Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri May 3 16:23:14 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 11:23:14 -0500 Subject: Follow-up Message-ID: <161227024228.23782.11381767947425774056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I am hoping not to breach netiquette with this follow-up. If so, please forgive my persistence. I am still hoping, however, to learn from any of you who have worked with the Nirukta about resources dealing with yaaska's choice of shruti examples, and the overall place Nirukta holds in later commentatorial traditions. The information in response to kaarikaa has been most enlightening considering I had not even initiated the request. I imagine, in turn, others may find information re. Nirukta of interest as well. Again, in advance, my thanks, John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri May 3 22:00:47 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 15:00:47 -0700 Subject: kaarikaa, aagama Message-ID: <161227024232.23782.8295061374838312234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I began the following message on 26 April as a response to J. Silk's question and wrote about three paragraphs. But I can complete the response only now. You see,the end of April is the deadline for filing income tax returns in Canada, and, as a Sanskitist, I have so many sources of income that I get exhuasted just keeping track of my team of accountants. The delay has bestowed on me the advantage that I can take into account even the more recent postings by S. Vidyasankar, S. Lindquist, D. Lusthaus and B. Kellner. Silk asks an important question: >Do you mean to suggest that aagama appears, for eaxmple, in a Sa.mkhya text, it might refer to Buddhist Aagamas? Is there any evidence for this? It seems to me l highly unlikely, if for no other reason than that for non-Buddhists Buddhist texts should *not* be any type of aagama. Is it not correct that generally (and perhaps there are exceptions) for Vedic / Brahmanical / Hindu writers, Buddhist texts -- rejecting as they do the authority of the Veda -- cannot themselves be any sort of authority?< Silk's second question is implicit in Vidyasankar's following lines: >... on "Agama-SAstra" - I interpreted Prof. Aklujkar's comments in a general sense. Thus, the "canonical" set of works of the Brahminical tradition would collectively be called Agama, of which the GK intends to give the purport. Of course, the Brahmin schools would have excluded any Buddhist texts from this canon. As far as the Buddhist traditions are concerned, by the time of the GK, the various sUtras and/or the Pali works had already attained the status of "canon", and could be labelled Agama with some justification. The Brahmins's canon is "Agama" for the Brahmin, and the Buddhist's canon is "Agama" for the Buddhist. I didnt think a cross-application of the two was intended in Prof. Aklujkar's remarks.< The short answer to Silk's question is that "there are exceptions." To expand: 1. The word aagama in itself has a range of meanings as I have incidentally and briefly pointed out in an article in Indo-Iranian Journal 13.3 (1971):169-70. A study of the context is necessary in most cases to determine the meaning likely to have been intended by an author. 2. A puurva-pak.sin (in an uttara-pak.sin's statement of his views as is invariably the situation in Skt texts) referring to his authoritative sources as aagma and an uttara-pak.sin doing the same with respect to his authoritative sources are not at issue here. This is what we would expect them to do as Vidyasankar's remarks suggest. All we have to do is to remember that even these uses would not be immune to the consideration pointed out in (1). 3. The real issue then is: Did we have thinkers in India whose notion of what constituted an aagama for them was composite or could conceivably be composite? Were there philosophers, in particular, who crossed or came close to crossing the Brahmanical and Buddhist divide of authoritative sources? The remarks by Silk and Vidyasankar assume that there were no such thinkers. The prevailing assumption in Indology is the same. What I have been pointing out during the last six years or so in my lectures and paper presentations is that this assumption is not justified. Things are not as rigid and unqualified as they have been taken to be. While I cannot point to a Brahmanical thinker who explicitly says that Buddhist or Jaina aagamas are acceptable as authorities to him, I can point to Brahmanical thinkers who came close to crossing the Brahmanical and Buddhist divide and indicated that they were doing so. (A justified reconstruction of India's past, it seems to me, is one in which a spectrum of thinkers with differing degrees of inclusivism and exclusivism is admitted. The present paradigm or model does not do justice either to the totality of historical evidence that is available nor to the nature of (what we would call) religious life as it was lived in India. However, to argue this point, I would need several dozen pages, which this forum cannot, rightly, make available. Hence I will draw attention only to some of my writings in which I have already begun to offer the necessary evidence, albeit in the context of some other larger issues: In press: "The Early History of Sanskrit as Supreme Language" which is to appear in the Proceedings of the Status and Ideology of Sanskrit volume being edited by Dr. Jan E.M. Houben. Shortly to be sent for publication (I hope): "The semantic history of 'Vedaanta' and the paradigm for the study of Indian philosophy. and *Sociolinguistic History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: Need for a Paradigm Change,* which is a monograph-length critique primarily of the views of my learned friend Professor Madhav M. Deshpande.) For example, there were Brahmanical authors who thought of Buddhist aagama(s) as ultimately having their origin in the Vedas, especially in the artha-vaadas of the Vedas. See Aklujkar 1991 = "Bhart.r-hari s concept of the Veda." In Panels of the VIIth World Sanskrit Conference. Vol. IV-V. Ed. Bronkhorst, Johannes. Pp. 1-18. Leiden: E.J. Brill. Pp. :1-2 and the notes going with them are especially relevant. From the preceding it does not follow that the aagamas of the Buddhists (and the Jainas) carried the same authority for Brahmanical authors as the 'regular' Vedic aagamas or even that the non-Vedic aagamas had to have authority. One could still introduce a slip between the cup of authority and the lip of the heretic. All one had to do was to say that while the source was impeccable the reception or the recepient of the source was not impeccable. Some thinkers, like Kumaarila, were highly sectarian who accused the Buddhists of forgetting their origin. Some, like Jayanta, were willing to accept the Buddhist teachings (and hence the Buddhist aagamas) at least in those areas in which the conduct prescribed was ethically better than the conduct recommended by the ;Saaktas etc. Some, like Bhart.r-hari and (very probably) Gau.da-paada, transcended the aagma distinction by taking a 'tair aya.m na virudhyate' position -- by achieving a philosophical ascent (although Bhart.r-hari's manner of achieving this ascent was not the same as Gau.da-paada's). (The preceding observation clearly has relevance for such discussions as the ones prompted by questions like 'Was Bhart.r-hari a Buddhist? and 'Did Gau.da-paada borrow his philosophy from the Buddhists?' In my writings under preparation, I am attempting to answer these questions. Suffice it to observe here that the discussions of these issues which are so far available in print are either informed (or misguided) by the same paradigm as the one I am challenging or they are methodologically rather naive.) D. Lusthaus and B. Kellner have made a valuable contribution by drawing attention to texts which contain "-kaarikaa" in their titles. It is evident that a kaarikaa text need not always be a commentary (in the bhaa.sya, .tiikaa etc. format) on some root text. However, this negative or absence-based observation does not imply that the term "kaarikaa" must have some special meaning beyond 'mnemonic/summary verses.' The evidence for such a special meaning, if any, must still be gathered by studying the early contexts in which the term occurs. It seems unlikely to me that, in the early period, the term "-kaarikaa" could have, as suggested by Vidyasankar, the sense 'one which brings about / fashions (the systematic development of a school).' The later usage does not show any vestiges of such a connotation. Secondly, the perspective ('systematic : unsystematic,' 'beginning : development') which is implicit in Vidyasankar's suggestion does not seem to be present in early Indian thinking, especially in the thinking revealed in nomenclature. Lindquist adds thus to his earlier postings: "... there seems to me something more at work in terming a text a kArikA, rather than just the fact that it just consists of kArikAs ... it DOES appear to make a difference of whether it is plural or singular (not grammatically, of course, but as a more 'technically used' term). I do not know about the Sam.khya kArikA, but the Gaud.padIya kArikA is not referred to as a text in the plural-perhaps the singular is used to denote genre (with the understanding that it means verses in the plural) whereas the plural (and dual, obviously) are to refer to groups of passages, but not the text as a whole. All plural references I find with the Gaud.padIya kArikA as 'kArikA's are referring to limited groups of verses and not the text as a whole. < What I have observed two paragraphs ago indicates why one must not insist that the term "kaarikaa" has a special meaning along a 'text : text-unit' trajectory and why the observation made by Professor Cardona probably constitutes an adequate answer. Furthemore, unless it is established that those who referred to the Gau.dapaadiiya kaarika(s) in the plural were making a distinction between a group of verses and the whole text *even when they did not give us the beginning and the end of a verse group,* we cannot be certain that they did not have the text as a whole in mind. It is possible that Lindquist's difficulty in accepting absence of the specified distinction arises because he is unconsciously under the influence of titles such as bhaa.sya, .tiika, v.rtti, pa;ncikaa, vyaakhyaa, viv.rti/vivara.na etc. and titles such as diipikaa, candrikaa, kaumudii, sudhaakara etc. Assuming I am justified in this guess, I would like to point out that while the former group of title words did convey genre distinctions (especially in the early period, although we cannot be entirely clear about what those distinctions were), the second group of 'poetic' titles belongs to a later period of Indian literature. The earlier titles are prosaic and functional. Suutra, kaarikaa, bhaa.sya, v.rtti, vivara.na etc. refer only to formal features. While referring to a genre, they do not seem to refer to distinctions such as 'part : whole,' 'influential : non-influential,' or 'major : nonmajor.' If I still have your attention, I would like to make one more point: It is important to remember in the present context that a usage like Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa is a short form for Gau.da-paada-k.rta-kaarikaa, Gau.da-paada-pra.niita-kaarikaa etc. It is unlikely to occur in good Sanskrit unless a distinction from some other kaarikaa text is intended. For example, one does not say Kaali-daasa-raama-kathaayaam in good Skt unless one has at the back of one's mind an awareness of the Raama story as narrated by someone else like Vaalmiiki or Bhava-bhuuti and unless one's intention is to refer specifically to Kaali-daasa's Raama story. While the first members of tat-puru.sa compounds routinely qualify/delimit the meaning of the following members, there is a difference in the connotation (naturalness and frequency) of expressions like Gau.da-paada-k.rta-kaarikaa, on the one hand, and expressions like Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa, on the other. This consideration would suggest that the Gau.da-paada's kaarikaas are unlikely to receive the designation Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa unless the kaarikaa texts of others were already generally known. A similar consideration would apply to the title Saa.mkhya-kaarikaa. ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 3 15:53:01 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 16:53:01 +0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024226.23782.1806886254170639046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Borrowing of ideas: Do what extent are ideas borrowed? Norwegian sailors sailed the seven seas for 200 years, and the only thing they brought home were artifacts. No Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam reached the shores of Norway before Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims did. The British ruled India for almost 200 years, but to what extent did the British become influenced by Indic culture in that period? Rather slightly, I should think. Indic philosophy was studied extensively by Westernes in the last century, yet this philosophy had little or no impact upon our own brand. The bottom line seems to be that nations are influenced by other cultures if they are under military occupation for some time, or if they choose to regard another culture as an exciting model, cf. the modern craze for imitating the culture of the USA (Americanization). Also, the immigration of members of another culture into an indigenous culture should have some effect. The Western world today has pockets of Western Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus, but they are still marginal. It remains to be seen if their influence will grow. Cultural contact does not necessarily lead to the exchange of ideas, at least not on a large scale. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri May 3 21:42:46 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 20:42:46 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024246.23782.10158207765129894748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 03 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) lmfu> Re: Borrowing of ideas: lmfu> Do what extent are ideas borrowed? lmfu> Indic philosophy lmfu> was studied lmfu> extensively by Westernes in the last century, yet this lmfu> philosophy had lmfu> little or no impact upon our own brand. I thought Schopenhauer was the classical example; and through him, Nietzsche. Rudolf Steiner needs to be mentioned too, and Whitehead. lmfu> The bottom line lmfu> seems to be that lmfu> nations are influenced by other cultures if they are under lmfu> military lmfu> occupation for some time, or if they choose to regard lmfu> another culture as an lmfu> exciting model, cf. the modern craze for imitating the lmfu> culture of the USA lmfu> (Americanization). Also, the immigration of members of lmfu> another culture into lmfu> an indigenous culture should have some effect. The Western lmfu> world today has lmfu> pockets of Western Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus, but they lmfu> are still lmfu> marginal. It remains to be seen if their influence will lmfu> grow. To me, your example of present-day Americanization looks like something we could consider a parallel to what may have happened in ancient times. Another example would be French influence throughout western Europe during the latter part of the nineteenth century. Or consider the gigantic impact of Greek ideas on Rome, although the Greeks were conquered by the Romans. Nor did the Chinese conquer Japan, as far as I know. So I think we have ample evidence of how ideas, norms, mannerisms etc. etc. migrated without being imposed through military means and without being accompanied by large-scale migration of people (there were no huge tribes of ex-patriot Frenchmen in fin-de-sie`cle Holland or Russia). The borrowing of ideas does not necessarily entail a wholesale revolutionization of a culture. (Even the Japanese are not mere pseudo-Chinese, but have a character of their own.) To take an example from our own time: does not practically every Westerner have at least a dim idea of what 'yoga', 'karma' and 'nirvana' are? Last year I read documentation that came with some "shareware" computer software, and its author (a fellow with a clearly Anglo-Saxon name) pleaded that users should register themselves, so that they would get "good karma". What is the New Age movement, if not a big (and often wild, rather disorderly) importation of ideas which originated in South Asia? Of course we can debate the quality of understanding of the borrowed ideas, or the depth of the effects of this borrowing; but that ideas are constantly being borrowed, and do have effect -- unavoidably so, because such is the nature of any non-trivial idea -- seems rather obvious. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Sat May 4 00:49:56 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 20:49:56 -0400 Subject: Email address? Message-ID: <161227024236.23782.4831476337655668369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the email address of Anantanand Rambachan (Religion department, St. Olaf College, Northfield), Mason C Hoadley (Institute of East Asian Languages, Lund University), and Richard L.M. Lee (Department of Anthropology and Sociology, University of Malaya) ? Thanks in advance. Sushil Mittal IIIS From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Sat May 4 00:53:40 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 03 May 96 20:53:40 -0400 Subject: Email address -- II Message-ID: <161227024234.23782.2874840135682673624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oups I forgot: Email address of Judy Saltzman (Philosophy department, California Polytechnic State University) as well. Thanks. Sushil IIIS From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 4 12:48:37 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sat, 04 May 96 08:48:37 -0400 Subject: Nepal/Himalayan Conf May 10 Message-ID: <161227024240.23782.1479924389811313321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> COMMITTEE ON SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES, HARVARD UNIVERSITY --- HIMALAYAN COLLOQIUM --- We take pleasure in inviting all interested to a one day symposium on the Himalayas, focussing on Nepal, Uttar Khand and Kashmir: SYMPOSIUM ON NEPAL AND THE HIMALAYAS Gerald Berreman (UC Berkeley) : Comparing the Nepalese and Indian Response to Ethnographic Research in the Himalayas Michael Witzel (Harvard U) : The Nagas of Kashmir in Myth, Ethnography and Sacred Geography Enrica Garzilli (Harvard Law School): Kashmir iN Abhinavagupta's Description of the World Jaya Raj Acharya (CFIA, Harvard, former UN Ambassador of Nepal): Poetics in Licchavi Inscriptions Ramesh Dhungel (Tribhuvan U, Kathmandu): Mustang, Past and Present Todd Lewis (College of the Holy Cross): Rituals of Old Age and Death: Ushnishvijaya and Sukhavati Aspirations in Newar Buddhism Keiko Yamanaka (UC Berkeley): Nepalese Labor Migrants in Japan and Returned Participants and Discussants include: William Fisher (Harvard U), Leonard van der Kuijp (Harvard U), Bruce Owen (Harvard U), Steve Parrish (Boston U), Theodore Riccardi (Columbia U), Eduard Sekler (Harvard U), Julia Thompson (Williams College) TIME & PLACE ============ Friday, May 10, 9:30 a.m. - 5 p.m., EMERSON Hall 307, Harvard University. All interested are welcome. Sponsored by: COMMITTEE ON SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES HARVARD UNIVERSITY >?From 101456.3175 at CompuServe.COM 04 96 May EDT 12:27:32 Date: 04 May 96 12:27:32 EDT From: Gillian Gloyer <101456.3175 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Kalanos the gymnosophist Arrian gives an account of the self-immolation of Kalanos in Anabasis VII, but a number of other historians (e.g. Plutarch) also report it, and the story was well-known. Alexander had met a group of digambara ascetics in Taxila and was so impressed he wanted one of them to join his personal entourage. The ascetics weren't quite so impressed by him, and Kalanos was the only volunteer. Once they got back to Persia he became progressively more ill, and finally persuaded Alexander to build a pyre for him. Of course this still doesn't get us any closer to influences on Plato. Doesn't Herodotus mention an Indian detachment fighting with the Persian army ( I admit this is not much of a lead)? Gillian Gloyer From william.douglas at wolfson.ox.ac.uk Sat May 4 11:30:57 1996 From: william.douglas at wolfson.ox.ac.uk (william.douglas at wolfson.ox.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 04 May 96 12:30:57 +0100 Subject: Wikner PK files Message-ID: <161227024238.23782.18382792203167877114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on porting Wikner's devanagari system to the Mac. I believe I have ported the preprocessor, but am unable to get the pk files generated and thereofre cannot test it... Would anyone have a zip archive of all the pk files in a reasonable range of mags that they would be willing to email? I'll go back and hunt through my config files _again in the meantime... Thanks. -wbd. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Douglas Wolfson College & +44 1865 310 759 Oriental Institute From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sat May 4 20:17:24 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 04 May 96 19:17:24 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024244.23782.17460544970806804280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 02 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) le> Another question is: How "Greek" is Greek philosphy? Most of le> the important le> preSocratic philosophers did not live in Greece proper. le> Thales, Anaxemander, et al. were strewn throughout the le> Mediterranean world, le> leaving them open to all sorts of non-Greek influences. If le> by "Greek" we le> mean simply the lingua-franca of the Mediterranean, so that le> "Greek le> philosophy" means Mediterranean philosophy written or le> recorded in Greek, le> then we are back looking at trade routes, etc., and noting le> the non-Greek le> (potential) influences that were streaming into the "Greek" le> [Mediterranean] le> world (and vice versa). I'm in favour of this view. Probably it is hard to underestimate the influence which the linguistic medium has on the development of schools of any kind of thought, be it philosophical, religious, artistic, or whatever. Cf. the well-known phenomenon that Anglo-Saxons (as well as modern English-educated Indians!) are ignorant of anything that has not been written in or translated into English, and even show a tendency towards instant contempt. On the positive side, exchanges of ideas and debates can take place much more easily within the unified linguistic community, which can lead to a quicker development of schools and traditions of thought; and where the thinkers exactly are, is of only secondary importance. Cf. the close relations between British and American thought, in spite of the ocean between the two countries, whereas the German and French philosophical traditions are quite distinct, though the two countries are adjacent. Perhaps we should also reflect on what "Indian" means. Isn't "India", as a cultural entity, something closely tied with the spread of Sanskrit as a medium of intellectual exchange? A question about the Greek language: does the word "gymnosophist" not imply that the person in question was nude? This would suggest, perhaps, a Digambara Jaina ascetic. On the other hand, self-immolation in a violent manner is utterly un-Jaina. I do not know of any tradition of nude Buddhist ascetics. Was Kalanos another, different kind of vraatya? Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Sun May 5 00:38:01 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 04 May 96 23:38:01 -0100 Subject: information on Internet about Baroda? Message-ID: <161227024242.23782.17677061066120485772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On behalf of a friend I want to ask whether anyone knows of an information source on the Internet (perhaps a Website, or otherwise) about Baroda; particularly where one can find information about Baroda during the period just before and after Independence. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Sun May 5 06:59:36 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 00:59:36 -0600 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024250.23782.12808600985405400127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos writes: > Cf. the >well-known phenomenon that Anglo-Saxons (as well as modern English-educated >Indians!) are ignorant of anything that has not been written in or translated >into English, and even show a tendency towards instant contempt.[...] Cf. >the close relations between >British and American thought, in spite of the ocean between the two countries, >whereas the German and French philosophical traditions are quite distinct, >though the two countries are adjacent. One shouldn't conflate the attitudes and activities of common folk with that of the intellectual elites. American "artists," e.g., typically went to Paris, not London, to learn their craft. 20th century French philosophy is inconceivable without German philosophy (Bergson's hegelianism; Sartre, Merleau-Ponty, Levinas, et al. dependent on Husserl, Heidegger, Neitzsche, etc.). In the 19th century, e.g., Nietzsche repeatedly writes that he preferred French intellectual culture to that of Germany; etc. etc. In fact the lingua franca throughout the world today, including Europe, is English (or perhaps one should say "American"), and while American culture is exerting its influence internationally, especially among youth, neither Berlin nor Delhi are New York. While obviously linguistic groupings can be signs of a certain cultural solidarity, especially when combined with an active denigration of the "other", language is rarely the sole factor. The Chinese and Greeks considered themselves surrounded by barbarians. Yet the Chinese were, historically, more aligned with Koreans (who spoke a completely different language, though their literati were literate in Classical Chinese) than with non-Han groups who often spoke Chinese and were for significant periods rulers of China. Cultural identity was not reducible to common language. >Perhaps we should also reflect on what "Indian" means. Isn't "India", as a >cultural entity, something closely tied with the spread of Sanskrit as a medium >of intellectual exchange? That's one way to look at it. Another is: The Indo-Europeans parted company somewhere around eastern Iran/Afghanistan, one group becoming the Persians and the other the India-invading Aryans. The "good" gods were called Devas in India, and the cruder, envious deities were called Asuras; The Zoroastrians called their main deity Ahura (mazda), and we Indo-European speakers inherited their term for the anti-gods as "devils." We also got the other side of the story, since we consider god(s) "divine." It doesn't take a great leap of insight to realize that the two groups diverged from a common source, speaking a common language, and that one group's "devils" was the other's "angels." Further, since before the time of the Buddha and MahAvIra (both who deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to Sanskrit only after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), no one was born into a family whose native language was Sanskrit. Especially the Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a language as medieval Latin. That's not to deny the importance of Sanskrit and its accouterments in the development of Indian identity (or identities); but it suggests that one also has to look elsewhere. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Sun May 5 09:30:05 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 03:30:05 -0600 Subject: Devas and devils Message-ID: <161227024254.23782.5778917404839658686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>The "good" gods were called Devas >>in India, and the cruder, envious deities were called Asuras; The >>Zoroastrians called their main deity Ahura (mazda), and we Indo-European >>speakers inherited their term for the anti-gods as "devils." > >I apologize for (temporarily) changing the subject, but is this really an >etymological fact? What I've always read is that "devil" derives from Greek >diabolos, meaning "adversary". My knowledge of Greek is very scant, but I >believe dia- is a prefix meaning (in this context) "against", etc. If you >compare a few modern European languages, you will find that their words for >"devil" are generally not very like "deva", and that the -l- element is very >marked: Fr. diable, Ge. Teufel, Sw. djaevul, etc. >Martin Gansten >mgansten at sbbs.se Martin, The etymology you trace out is indeed typical and correct, but you are picking up the trail too late. Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary offers the following etymology for "devil" (p.237b): Middle English devel; from Old English dEofol; from Late Latin diabolus; from Greek diabolos, lit., slanderer; which it tries to derive from diaballein, to throw across, slander, from dia + ballein, to throw. Maybe the OED digs a bit deeper, but one has to look to other sources for the actual etymology. E.g., William Malandra, _An Introduction to Ancient Iranian Religion_, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1983, p. 5: "Ancient cultures did not exist in isolation, but were either related generically to or influenced by contact with other cultures.... Old Iranian posses a word, Av* _daEwa_, OPers *_daiwa_ meaning 'demon' or false or hostile god'. Other termns used by related peoples include OInd _deva_ 'heavenly; god' Lat _deus_ 'god'; OIr _dia_ 'god'; and ONorse _tivar_ 'gods.' The differences in meaning between the Iranian terms and their counterparts in other languages suggest that, in the course of Iranian religious history, certain changes have taken place in ideology that have led to a demonization of the gods.... one can safely reconstruct a history of daEwa/daiwa, at least to the extent that one knows that the word originally meant 'god,' not 'demon'. On p. 81 of the same work, who do we find banished as a daEwa? Indra... If it is not sheer neglect or oversight that has failed to make the link between daiwa and devil better known (since the whole sons of darkness ideology came into Western thought from Iran with the term -- there are no devils in the Hebrew Scriptures), then perhaps it is fear of relativising the divine... One person's divinity is another's devil, and perhaps for no more profound reason than that two clans didn't think very highly of each other, or perhaps they fought over grazing rights. Your student's hunch wasn't wrong. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From LGoehler at aol.com Sun May 5 09:14:47 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 05:14:47 -0400 Subject: Nirukta Message-ID: <161227024256.23782.17738829752055698431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, a for :MImAMsA-comments and references to :YAska's :Nirukta (which in some respects close to the grammatical tradition) a good source is D.V.Garge: Citations in Zabara-BhASya. Poona 1952. - It might be interesting, that :Zabara, paraphrasing the :VRttikAra ad MS I.1.32 who is referring to :YAska's Mantra-classification (Nir. 7.1-3) with some modifications, uses examples for the mantra-classification from TS and VS while :YAska prefers those from RV. :KumArila did not seem to be aware, that this classification is derived from :YAska. He sums up the passage as follows (ad MS I.1.32): vRttau lakSaNam eteSAm asyantatvAntarUpatA/ AzISaH stutisaMkhye ca pralaptaM paridevitam// praiSAnveSaNapRSTAkhanAnuSaGgaprayogitAH/ sAmarthyaM ceti mantrANAM vistaraH prAyiko mataH// I hope this is of help Lars Goehler From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sun May 5 05:50:39 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 06:50:39 +0100 Subject: Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024248.23782.17772094045907968885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse) writes: >Re: Borrowing of ideas: > >Indic philosophy was studied >extensively by Westernes in the last century, yet this philosophy had >little or no impact upon our own brand. I doubt this. It seems to me that it in fact had a radical effect. Not that new ideas were adopted wholesale but that they were part of what went into the creative mixtures that produced new philosophies. I suspect that the reason people don't see this is that they don't realize just how radically European thought has changed over the last 200 years. (Many Indians have the same problem in recognizing the changes introduced by contact with the West.) I am sure that Raymond (?) Schwab was quite correct to emphasize the critical and revolutionary impact of the awareness of oriental ideas. >The bottom line seems to be that >nations are influenced by other cultures if they are under military >occupation for some time, or if they choose to regard another culture as an >exciting model, cf. the modern craze for imitating the culture of the USA >(Americanization). The second model would be the case of the importation of Buddhism into China, do you think ? But military occupation is always a two way process. The occupiers are influenced just as much, sometimes more so. >Also, the immigration of members of another culture into >an indigenous culture should have some effect. The Western world today has >pockets of Western Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus, but they are still >marginal. It remains to be seen if their influence will grow. True, yet we have seen successive waves of influence for more than a century now. Each wave seems to leave something behind. >Cultural >contact does not necessarily lead to the exchange of ideas, at least not on >a large scale. Again true. In the case in point, however, it is really no longer possible to dispute that major influences did in fact occur. For example, there is no doubt at all that by the middle of the first millennium A.D. (and probably long before this) mathematical and astronomical knowledge which came ultimately from Mesopotamia was well established in India. We know that the same was the case in Greece. The difference there is that we have much more historical knowledge and therefore _know_ that this took place much earlier. I am quite deliberately choosing mathematics because this cannot be disputed any longer. It is much harder to trace other influences but it is very unlikely that, if the one transmission takes place, others did not take place also. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mgansten at sbbs.se Sun May 5 07:16:59 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 09:16:59 +0200 Subject: Devas and devils Message-ID: <161227024252.23782.1956016694602564625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus writes: >The "good" gods were called Devas >in India, and the cruder, envious deities were called Asuras; The >Zoroastrians called their main deity Ahura (mazda), and we Indo-European >speakers inherited their term for the anti-gods as "devils." I apologize for (temporarily) changing the subject, but is this really an etymological fact? What I've always read is that "devil" derives from Greek diabolos, meaning "adversary". My knowledge of Greek is very scant, but I believe dia- is a prefix meaning (in this context) "against", etc. If you compare a few modern European languages, you will find that their words for "devil" are generally not very like "deva", and that the -l- element is very marked: Fr. diable, Ge. Teufel, Sw. djaevul, etc. I ask only because I was recently asked by one of my own students whether there is any connection between these words and "deva", and replied in the negative. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I would like to know. Regards, Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From mgansten at sbbs.se Sun May 5 09:40:17 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 11:40:17 +0200 Subject: Devas and devils Message-ID: <161227024259.23782.3031186128335516661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus writes: >The etymology you trace out is indeed typical and correct, but you are >picking up the trail too late. (---) >If it is not sheer neglect or oversight that has failed to make the link >between daiwa and devil better known (since the whole sons of darkness >ideology came into Western thought from Iran with the term -- there are no >devils in the Hebrew Scriptures), then perhaps it is fear of relativising >the divine... I'm sorry, but I still fail to see the evidence of connection between the two sets of words. I know about the ambiguity of "deva" and "asura", of course, but how can it be shown that "deva" is related to "diabolos" -- and what about the "l" element? "Deva" *is* generally considered to have Greek relations, e.g. "dios" = "divine", but I never heard "diabolos" suggested before. As for Hebrew scriptures, to my knowledge "diabolos" is supposed to be a Greek translation of Hebrew "satan" (or whatever the correct transliteration may be), meaning "adversary, enemy, prosecutor" and mentioned at least in the book of Job. Of course, if there is evidence of use of this word in pre-(Judeo)Christian Greek, there would seem to be a case for the "deva" connection. Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From grootd at ibm.net Sun May 5 10:54:18 1996 From: grootd at ibm.net (Dick de Groot) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 12:54:18 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Indian musical instruments] Message-ID: <161227024261.23782.10447372740789025203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2389 URL: From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon May 6 00:20:02 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 20:20:02 -0400 Subject: Filliozat, etc. Message-ID: <161227024265.23782.650913642993944753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having had a little time to check, I now realize that the article by Filliozat which I was vaguely recalling was "La doctrine des BrAhmanes d'apr?s saint Hippolyte" in Revue de l'Histoire des Religions [cxxx, 1945].. That article [which I no longer have access to] and the related discussion in Filliozat's "Classical Doctrine of Indian Medicine" allude to a popular and apocryphal tale of a dialogue between Socrates & an Indian sage concerning knowledge of self as knowledge of god [in Philostratos's Life of Apollonius, this Indian sage is named Iarchus]. So I am mistaken about Plato [perhaps it is more accurate to call my "recollection" wishful thinking!]. But Filliozat's observation re this legend, it seems to me, remains cogent: whether or not such a dialogue ever really happened, the dialogue in any case attributes a *genuinely* Indic doctrine [i.e., Atman = brahman] to an Indian sage, and even if such a doctrine can be found independently among Greek philosophers, the attribution of such a teaching to such a figure must rest on an accurate knowledge of the Indic doctrine [i.e., even if the doctrine itself can be derived from purely Greek sources, e.g., Socrates himself, it is unlikely that accurate attribution of the same doctrine to Indic philosophers can be accidental, or the product of fantasy]. The authors of such stories must have had more or less accurate information re the wisdom of Indian sages. I have also been digging around in dictionaries & in Schwanbeck's "Megasthenes Indica", and observe that terms like Brachma^nes [= Latin Brachmanae], Sarma^nai [= Skt. Zramana], and Bou?tta [= Buddha] are all probably directly attributable to Megasthenes [c.the end of the 4th cent. BCE]. As far as I know, distinctive culture terms like Skt. mantra, karman, dharman, nirvANa, etc., are unattested in classical Greek. But I am confident that if such terms *were* to appear as borrowings into Greek, there would be little dispute about "the borrowing of ideas". Enrica Garzilli informs me that she believes that there was a certain amount of borrowing in the other direction [i.e., from Greek to Indic]. No doubt, there was. But I am confident that subsequent research will show that the Greeks learned a quite few things from those dark-skinned, scantily-attired "gymnosophists" and philosophers, from India, as well as from other peoples from other places in the larger world of classical antiquity [I am thinking of the debate that is now raging re Afrocentric revisions of the Greek miracle...]. In contrast, the discussion in this group has been uniformly both civilized and perceptive. Very refreshing. Sincerely. George Thompson From ralphbunker at msn.com Sun May 5 20:35:58 1996 From: ralphbunker at msn.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 20:35:58 +0000 Subject: Wikner PK files Message-ID: <161227024263.23782.12719904100066784021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is Wikner's Devanagari system? From AmitaSarin at aol.com Mon May 6 01:38:46 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 May 96 21:38:46 -0400 Subject: Bharhut stupa Message-ID: <161227024266.23782.3989304917220300679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have no personal experience with this subject, but I'm listing below some books that may be helpful in your quest. Coomaraswamy, A.K. History of Indian and Indonesian Art, New York, 1927. ----. Elements of Buddhist Iconography. Cambridge, Mass.1935 ----. "The Two Reliefs from Bharhut in the Freer Gallery." J. of the Indian Society of Oriental Art. Vol. VI, 1938. ----. La Sculpture de Bharhut. Tr. de Jean Buhot. SParis, 1956. Cunningham, A. The Stupa of Bharhut. London, 1879. Barua, B. Bharhut. Calcutta, 1934. Barua, B. and Sinha, K.G. Bharhut Inscriptions. Calcutta, 1926. I realise these references are all a bit old. Hope they are helpful. Amita Sarin From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Mon May 6 07:39:20 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 01:39:20 -0600 Subject: Devas and devils Message-ID: <161227024273.23782.156596587714919136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten writes: >I'm sorry, but I still fail to see the evidence of connection between the >two sets of words. I know about the ambiguity of "deva" and "asura", of >course, but how can it be shown that "deva" is related to "diabolos" -- and >what about the "l" element? "Deva" *is* generally considered to have Greek >relations, e.g. "dios" = "divine", but I never heard "diabolos" suggested >before. You are asking for the moment of conversion or conflation between daiwa (Iranian devils) and diabolos? For that matter, when did Greek daemons (nice, wholesome spiritual beings or conditions) become demons? The evidence for daiva => devil, if there is any, lies, I would think, in the semantic sphere. It is the Iranian gift to world religions to envision the entire cosmos as a battleground between two nearly equally matched forces, one side of light and goodness, and the other of darkness and evil. While the early Church sometimes labeled the more blatant borrowings of this theme by Christians as a Manichean heresy, any visit to a fire-and-brimstone preacher in the US Bible Belt indicates that this heresy has hardly disappeared. The Greek daemons were not devils, and the Greeks certainly had nothing comparable to THE devil. Neither did the Hebrews (more on that in a second). The Greek gods themselves could be capricious (hence rarely purely good or purely evil), and for the Greeks even the Gods were subject to moira (lit. "partitions", fate), which impersonally meted out misfortune (or good fortune) with a sense of justice (though the Greeks seemed more drawn toward the tragic aspects of moira). The source for the idea of THE devil, along with his band of devils, seems to be clearly of Iranian origin. The word, I submit, traveled with the idea. If it was hellenized with a play on a false cognate that resonated with Greek speakers, so much the more potent. > Of course, if there is evidence of use of this word [diabolos] in >pre-(Judeo)Christian Greek, there would seem to be a case for the "deva" >connection. I don't know if it appears prior to Hellenistic writings, nor if it appears in the Septuagint (does anyone have a Septuagint or Septuagint concordance to check?), or where it first appears. Philo (De somn. 141-142; De gigant. 6-9) equates the Greek Daemons with Jewish angels [which themselves seem to be of Iranian origin], and Plutarch (1st-2nd century CE) explicitly cites the "orient" as a key source for his demonology. I think we can agree that the idea of devils came West from Iran. The issue we are disputing is whether the term came with it. >As for Hebrew scriptures, to my knowledge "diabolos" is supposed to be a >Greek translation of Hebrew "satan" (or whatever the correct transliteration >may be), meaning "adversary, enemy, prosecutor" and mentioned at least in >the book of Job. Since this is an Indology list, and not Biblical_Scripture-L, allow me to respond briefly. The word SaTan (letters: sin + tet + nun) and derivatives are found in the Hebrew Scriptures, but most often as a verb meaning "to challenge, to impede the progress of, to turn aside, deviate from one's course." In most of those instances the Western language translations leave unremarked and unnoticeable the fact that SaTaN is the term being used. Its root is SaT [Hebrew is not related to Sanskrit!] meaning "to go astray, deviate, rebel" [that last meaning being derivative of later theological developments], and it is related to such words as SaTaN (identical spelling) meaning "hatred, animosity", ShaTaT "rover, ranger, wanderer", and ShaTYaH "fool". An examination of the Biblical passages where it occurs suggests the meanings of the term SaTaN developed something like this: 1. to try to force something to deviate from its course; God uses the verb re: Himself and the angel he sends to "deviate" or "block" Balaam and his ass (Deut. 22.22 and 22.32). 2. any sort of misfortune or bad luck, at some point related to stellar events, such as the morning star (e.g., Lucifer - who also is not originally a "devil", in Heb. Ko.HaV NoNaH 'bright star' and later AYeLeth HaSha.HaR 'leader of the darkness'). 3. Anyone who verbally challenges, speaks ill of good things (leading to misfortune), or leads people away from God by slandering Him. Acting as an adversary. 4. the personification of the maker of bad luck [who is still not THE Devil]. The Hebrew term SaTan occurs only in these passages: Deut. (see above); Samuel I 29:4; Sam II 19:23; Kings I 5:18; 11:14, 23, 25; Chronicles I 11:1; Psalms 38:21, 71:13, 109:4, 6, 20, 29; Zechariah 3:1; and 6 times in Job. If you check these passages, most will not (at least in the English versions) indicate that Satan is the word in use. Cf. Ezra 4:6 and Gen. 26:21. Exposition of these passages must await another time and occasion. Once you check them you'll see that only in the post-Exilic writings (e.g. Zachariah) do we have even the slightest foreshadowing of what Satan comes to mean for Christians, i.e., it's an idea gradually imported from Iran during the post-exilic period. If the "devilization" of daemons and Satan qua diabolos is my own idea, so be it, though I don't believe it is. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Mon May 6 08:43:40 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 02:43:40 -0600 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024275.23782.637082377190724994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos writes: > German >and French philosophy on the whole show different tendencies Sure. And so do Sartre and Merleau-Ponty from each other; and so do Heidegger and Husserl from each other. French and German philosophies are however not the self-isolated linguistic communities you are suggesting. As Tom Rockmore has shown, Heidegger's popularity in France and the USA is directly due to the efforts of French thinkers after the war - most Germans were not interested in his thought (or wartime sentiments) at that time. > (cf. e.g. Jean >Grondin's remarks in his _Der Sinn fuer Hermeneutik_, introduction. > Try to find an Indian colleague who reads any Indian language other than >his own with a degree of ease, or who reads non-English foreign publications. They are indeed rare, but those exceptions are the shining stars. I had the good fortune to study with J. Mohanty for several years, and while he would not speak German in class (he'd ask German students to pronounce certain words), his *reading* of German texts (and Greek, etc.) is impeccable. All the examples you cite of contemporary Indian intellectual provincialism are perhaps best seen as symptomatic of what ails India today. India will not regain its intellectual significance for the world until it outgrows that self-imposed myopia. If that's true, than the Sanskrit-only movement is going exactly in the wrong direction, though to add to your list of provincialisms, most of the Indians I know have little to zero comprehension of Sanskrit (unless a word or phrase sounds similar to what they do speak). >(As for Nietzsche: we should not take all his statements at their face value. >Many of them had a polemical and provocative intention.) I never take Nietzsche at face value; I made that comment to show (1) Germans "knew" about French thought, (2) some admired it and thought it had something to teach their own. Again, the point is to differentiate the elite - amongst whom you will find the multilingual cosmopolitan thinkers - from the provincials who see their own efforts at reappropriating their own past as either maintaining or fixing the status quo. > First the English language is there; >afterwards come the soap operas and CNN and MTV via satellite, which would be >meaningless without a basic knowledge of the language. In Taiwan MTV is broadcast from Japan in Japanese with Chinese subtitles. In fact most of the cable TV offerings in Taiwan are from Japanese satellite. Yet few if any younger Taiwanese speak Japanese. CBS Evening News is broadcast in Taiwan in English in the morning, and yet few Taiwanese understand a word of it without the Chinese subtitles. CNN might be on cable there, but I didn't run into it. > New Delhi's desire for >high-tech things and the BJP's desire that India should be a nuclear-weapons >power, however ugly, are perfectly understandable from the point of view of a >culture that feels threatened by America. Is "America" a typo for Pakistan, which is getting support for its own nuclear program from China? [stuff omitted] > And this is why there is a grass-roots movement in India aimed at >reviving Sanskrit as an actively used language. I question the legitimacy of the word "reviving" in that sentence. > le> Further, since before the time of the Buddha and > le> MahAvIra (both who > le> deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to > le> Sanskrit only > le> after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), > >But does this switching to Sanskrit not confirm my view? Pali and the various >forms of Prakrit (N.B.: not one single variety of Prakrit!) which Jaina authors >used could not survive in the course of time as pan-Indian media for the >exchange of ideas. Only Sanskrit could. N.B. If my use of the plural word "forms" was not clear enough, then thank you for clarifying my intent (though, according to the grammar I learnt, the phrases "forms of Prakrit" and "Prakrit forms" are synonymous). The switching to "Sanskrit" as a professional language is a sign of their increasing professionalism. It marked the sovereignty of the elite over thinking (precisely the problem that Buddha cited as the reason why he refused to speak Sanskrit). It was a professional lingua franca, which Jainas or Buddhists from all over India or the Buddhist world could find useful when interacting with their brethren of other tongues, and which also helped facilitate interreligious debates (in the flesh and textually) between the various "Indian" traditions. Yes, it served a professional pan-Indian function, and I've not tried to dismiss or belittle that, but it was not the *formative* factor in the development of those non-Vedic traditions, and as we grow more aware of the history of regional developments of Hinduism, the importance of the non-Sanskrit innovations is becoming more apparent. Similarly, are Sikhs not Indians simply because they never Sanskritized the Adi Granth (and have no plans to do so, according to the latest I've heard)? Do you want to reduce Sikh political actions and motives to mere language? What about the Sants, Kabir, etc.? Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Mon May 6 08:50:32 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 02:50:32 -0600 Subject: correction Message-ID: <161227024278.23782.808683609751850988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's 2:50 am here, so forgive me for citing Deut.; the correct citation is Numbers 22.22 and 22.32 in the following: >1. to try to force something to deviate from its course; God uses the verb >re: Himself and the angel he sends to "deviate" or "block" Balaam and his >ass (Deut. 22.22 and 22.32). Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Mon May 6 04:05:16 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 03:05:16 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024271.23782.1367039951754627952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 05 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) le> Subject: Re: re Kalanos the gymnosophist le> One shouldn't conflate the attitudes and activities of le> common folk with le> that of the intellectual elites. American "artists," e.g., le> typically went le> to Paris, not London, to learn their craft. 20th century le> French philosophy le> is inconceivable without German philosophy (Bergson's le> hegelianism; Sartre, le> Merleau-Ponty, Levinas, et al. dependent on Husserl, le> Heidegger, Neitzsche, le> etc.). In the 19th century, e.g., Nietzsche repeatedly le> writes that he le> preferred French intellectual culture to that of Germany; le> etc. etc. Of course language never was a door that was shut forever and for everyone (our Kalanos thread is based on the very assumption of exchange of ideas across linguistic / cultural boundaries!). I do maintain that in spite of this, German and French philosophy on the whole show different tendencies (cf. e.g. Jean Grondin's remarks in his _Der Sinn fuer Hermeneutik_, introduction. Grondin, by the way, is neither French nor German but Canadian, like myself) [note, for those who know me: all right, I am bi-national]. And the fact remains that language can be an enormous hurdle, and India provides excellent examples of this. Try to find an Indian colleague who reads any Indian language other than his own with a degree of ease, or who reads non-English foreign publications. The examples which India provides are literally innumerable. Visit an Indian university library and count the number of titles dealing with a minor British thinker like Bradley, who is virtually unknown just across the water on the European mainland. Indian colleagues tend to believe that F.R. Leavis and I.A. Richards are the alpha and omega of literary criticism, while European colleagues disregard them altogether. An astonishing number of Indian literary people (scholars and creative writers) believe that T.S. Eliot is the greatest poet of the century, no doubt also because they cannot read the French and German contemporaries at whom Eliot must have had more than a close look. The list of examples goes on and on. (As for Nietzsche: we should not take all his statements at their face value. Many of them had a polemical and provocative intention.) le> In fact the lingua franca throughout the world today, le> including Europe, is le> English (or perhaps one should say "American"), and while le> American culture le> is exerting its influence internationally, especially among le> youth, neither le> Berlin nor Delhi are New York. If we were to vote for a lingua franca for use in INDOLOGY, my own vote would go to German, as a language with which a long and consistent tradition of academic excellence in this field is associated. But all that does not count. New York as a hub of American culture does not count either. What counts is where Wall Street and the Pentagon are. (That India once was British territory, and that English comes from Britain, is merely a happy coincidence.) This is an ugly, brutal fact, but it remains true (which is all right, in a way, since after all we do need a common linguistic medium here, and now the matter has been settled right away). The use of English, and modern popular Americophilia remarked upon earlier by Lars Fosse, is another example of how the spread of a language and a culture need not depend on total military subjugation: in this case economic strength, backed by military strength, is enough. First the English language is there; afterwards come the soap operas and CNN and MTV via satellite, which would be meaningless without a basic knowledge of the language. New Delhi's desire for high-tech things and the BJP's desire that India should be a nuclear-weapons power, however ugly, are perfectly understandable from the point of view of a culture that feels threatened by America. All of which is highly tragical, in the classical Greek sense of the word. le> Cultural identity was not reducible le> to common language. Quite true. Croatian and Serbian are virtually the same language, though happenings in the former Yugoslavia indicate a lack of sense of ethnic and cultural commonness. rz>Perhaps we should also reflect on what "Indian" means. Isn't "India", rz>as a cultural entity, something closely tied with the spread of Sanskrit rz>as a medium of intellectual exchange? le> That's one way to look at it. Another is: The Indo-Europeans le> parted company le> somewhere around eastern Iran/Afghanistan, one group le> becoming the Persians le> and the other the India-invading Aryans. The "good" gods [...] What I find missing in this view is the very important non-Aryan component in Indian culture; and this component is precisely a chief cause in the development of Sanskrit as a language distinct from Avestan. Prof. Kuijper and others have written extensively on the Dravidian and other influences in the formation of Sanskrit, and this is what makes Sanskrit "Indian" besides it being, purely historically, a branch of ancient Indo-European. Sanskrit could not have developed elsewhere, and after it assumed its definitive form in India, it remained the pan-Indian language, unequalled by any other language ever after. And this is why there is a grass-roots movement in India aimed at reviving Sanskrit as an actively used language. le> Further, since before the time of the Buddha and le> MahAvIra (both who le> deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to le> Sanskrit only le> after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), But does this switching to Sanskrit not confirm my view? Pali and the various forms of Prakrit (N.B.: not one single variety of Prakrit!) which Jaina authors used could not survive in the course of time as pan-Indian media for the exchange of ideas. Only Sanskrit could. le> no one was le> born into a family whose native language was Sanskrit. le> Especially the le> Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a le> language as medieval Latin. But this does not matter (nor does it matter that many ancients who wrote in Koine Greek were not born Greeks, or that Germanic people in northern Europe wrote mediaeval Latin, or that Indian Muslims wrote in Persian and Arabic). Or rather: it _does_ matter, in the sense that it confirms my view (see my previous paragraph). Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Mon May 6 08:15:49 1996 From: jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 08:15:49 +0000 Subject: Filliozat, etc. Message-ID: <161227024282.23782.17735287249087249996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As far as I know, distinctive culture terms like Skt. mantra, > karman, dharman, nirvANa, etc., are unattested in classical Greek. But I > am confident that if such terms *were* to appear as borrowings into Greek, > there would be little dispute about "the borrowing of ideas". Enrica > Garzilli informs me that she believes that there was a certain amount of > borrowing in the other direction [i.e., from Greek to Indic]. No doubt, > there was. Is not this wishful thinking? What did the Greeks have that would have been of any value to the Indians? They already had a rich philosophic language and tradition, and a highly analytic one at that. The Greeks had no apparent tradition of meditation or spiritual techniques. Greek thought up to and beyond Plato, right up to Plotinus, I would say, laid alongside Indian thought like Buddhism and Vedanta is nothing better than infantile gropings. The one thing we know for certain that the Greeks did influence Indian culture with was their highly anthropo-centric art, sculpture in particular. It is undoubtedly beautiful, but whether it is really an advantage to have a very realistic picture of the gods as physically attractive young men and women is perhaps another issue. There is something to be said for a "crude" empty seat to represent the Buddha, for example, as opposed to a young Apollo sitting cross-legged. Even the Greek contempt for the Egyptian animal-headed gods was a sign of their superficiality. A highly nubile sculpture of Aphrodite is easily accepted at simple face value - that is what the gods really look like! On the other hand, an ibis-headed or hippopotamus-headed god (or an Indian elephant-headed god) are so obviously grotesque at face value, that the symbolic nature of the portrayal is (or should be) that much more obvious. Plato refers explicitly to the Orphics, to the Magi, to Egypt. The fact that he makes no reference to anything further afield is probably significant. These were his horizons. This is not to deny undoubted cross-fertilisations later. Many of these are striking and highly significant. One of the most curious, and potentially very important cases is the one raised by Edward Conze - the simultaneous development in the Mediterranean and in India of a Sophia/Praj~naa-based religion, and one could add to that the simultaneous development of Saviour/Bodhisattva cults. Apart from vague references to the possibly mediating figure of the Persian Sayoshyant this phenomenon has never been adequately explained, to my knowledge. There are other fascinating cases of explicit infuence, but it never ceases to amaze me how little the typical merchant and soldier/adminstrator mind has any real interest in the culture and religion of countries he may well spend many years in. The British in India are a good example of this. There was more real investigation of Indian thought in Germany than in Britain. Marco Polo too spent more than 20 years in China, and on his return enriched Italian culture with - pasta! -- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk From mgansten at sbbs.se Mon May 6 07:52:01 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 09:52:01 +0200 Subject: Devas and devils Message-ID: <161227024280.23782.10270202550869159304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan Lusthaus writes: >Since this is an Indology list, and not Biblical_Scripture-L, allow me to >respond briefly. Point taken. >If the "devilization" of daemons and Satan qua diabolos is my own idea, so >be it, though I don't believe it is. Alright. Let's leave it at that. Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From garzilli at shore.net Mon May 6 14:03:41 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 10:03:41 -0400 Subject: Filliozat, etc. and the Cynics Message-ID: <161227024283.23782.17243394680242152516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > am confident that if such terms *were* to appear as borrowings into Greek, > there would be little dispute about "the borrowing of ideas". Enrica > Garzilli informs me that she believes that there was a certain amount of > borrowing in the other direction [i.e., from Greek to Indic]. No doubt, > there was. But I am confident that subsequent research will show that the > Greeks learned a quite few things from those dark-skinned, scantily-attired > "gymnosophists" and philosophers, from India, as well as from other peoples > > Sincerely. > George Thompson > I said to you in private, it depends on the date. Re the "sopheites" of Strabo's *Geographia* (transl. as "gymnosophists" in Western literature, but as "Sofisti" in A. Buonaccioli, Venice 1565) they have been mentioned by Onesikritos as reported by Strabo (G XV, 1, -65): Mandanis and Kalanos. Somebody hypothesized they were Cynics. However, Onesicritus was influenced by the Cynic philosophy. But Strabo says that Aristobulos saw two sophistes, both Brahmanes, who practiced various ascetic exercises in Taxila (G XV, 1, 61). Strabo also reports the description of "philosophoi" given by Megasthenes (G XV,1-59-60 et passim): Brachmanes and Garmanes, both absorbed in ascetic practices. On Onesicritus and Cynism ther are many studies (T.S. Brown, R. Wofchuk, and a short survey of liter. on the theme of Greek, Indian sages, and Utopia given by me in "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems", in *Indo Iranian Journal*, in press, fns. 69-70) In order to understand a bit the borrowings, the first big problem is to understand documents (to collect, analyze, check, compare, etc.), first of all Strabo's sources and use of sources. (On Strabo's sources of book XV, cf. V. Vogel, *De fontibus quibus Strabo in libro quinto decimo conscribendo usus sit*, Goettingen 1874. I have extensively discussed Strabo's sources on the above quoted paper...) On borrowings, some scholar hypothesized similarities between the practices of the Shivaite Pasupata and the Cynics (see bibl. and discussion in my above quoted paper...). Therefore, Shiva and Greek gods, etc. On Alexander and Indian sages: G. Dumezil, "Alexandre et les sages de l'Inde", in *Stritti in Onore di Giuliano Bonfante*, Brescia 1976. Cf. U. Wilcken, "Alexander der Grosse und die Gymnosophisten, in *SBPreussAk*, 1923; and the notations given by A. Featugiere, "Trois rencontres entre la Grece et l'Inde", in *RHR*, 125 (1943). I hope this helps to start satisfying the hunger for learning of George Thompson...:) The problems are very interesting and we can really enter a labyrinth... EG Dr. Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) Managing Editor, EJVS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) *************************************************************** From wagers at computek.net Mon May 6 15:24:23 1996 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 10:24:23 -0500 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024289.23782.16547576233895901541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse writes on 5/6/96: > Having said this, we are still far away from a formula that would enable us > to deal with the problem of heritage as against borrowing as against > spontaneous development of the same idea in two different places (the > Newton - Leibnitz effect: Both discovered infinitesimal calculation [hope > this is the right word] at about the same time without influencing each > other). I have always understood them to have been in communication. Will wagers at computek.net http://denton.computek.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Indologist.Shtml http://denton.computek.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Mayanist.Shtml From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 6 14:48:22 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 10:48:22 -0400 Subject: kaarikaa, aagama Message-ID: <161227024285.23782.16833182621781312237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I have heard some of Aklujkar's ideas and have now read brief allusions to them in his message, it would be inappropriate for me to respond to his criticisms of my views until I see them in print. I will of course respond to them in appropriate ways, once they appear in print in their finalized form. In any case, I found the following remarks most interesting: > While I cannot point to a Brahmanical thinker who explicitly says that > Buddhist or Jaina aagamas are acceptable as authorities to him, I can point > to Brahmanical thinkers who came close to crossing the Brahmanical and > Buddhist divide and indicated that they were doing so. I would like to draw attention to my discussion of relatively late Buddhist Sanskrit texts like Lalitavistara which shows that the Buddhist tradition by this time shows an increasing absorption of both the Brahmans as a social category and its prestige, as well as the Vedic traditions of the Brahmans. In fact the text says that the Buddhist gods taught the Mantravedashaastra to the Brahmans. I related this rising star of the Brahmans within the Buddhist tradition to the fact that almost all the Mahayana teachers were born Brahmans converted to Buddhism, apparently without shedding all the Brahmanical baggage. For details, see my Sanskrit and Prakrit, Sociolinguistic Issues, Motilal Banarsidass, 1993, pp. 7-8. There are indeed signs of fluidity to be found all over the place. Currently, I am working on a text called VedavicaaraH by Dvivedi DraviDa Shyaamashaastri composed around 1890s. Among other things, the text refers to practices of Brahmans which are contrary to what is prescribed in the orthodox tradition (asaampradaayika). The author says that acts like pulling out one's hair and worshipping the Caityas are prescribed in the Shaastras of the Naastikas, and yet many Aastika Brahmans perform these Naastika acts. While the author clearly views this as despicable, there is a clear admission of behavioral fluidity. Another interesting discussion occurs in the Mahaabhaazya (Kielhorn edn, vol. I, p. 3). An objector says that if any cited verses are authoritative, then even a verse such as the following would be authoritative: "If a whole row of wine-pots with the color of Udumbara, when consumed, does not take one to heaven, how could it take one to heaven consumed during a sacrifice?" Patanjali responds by saying that this verse was sung by its honorable author under delusion (pramattagiita eza tatrabhavataH). However, what comes from this honorable author when he is not deluded would be authoritative (yas tv apramattagiitas tat pramaaNam). After classifying some sayings of an honorable person as deluded, and therefore, unacceptable, Patanjali still leaves room to accept other sayings of the same person, if they do not exhibit delusion. Of course, the most important point here is that the evaluative framework of Patanjali, or what he would consider delusion or lack of delusion, is indeed Brahmanical. While evaluating the question of borrowing Buddhist ideas by authors like BhartRhari or GauDapaada, one needs to first investigate the criterion of acceptability of views for an author like BhartRhari or GauDapaada. If certain ideas from non-Brahmanical traditions were perceived as being not contradictory to the Vedic tradition (vedashaastra- avirodhii tarkaH), their acceptance would not necessarily signal a move across the Brahmanical and Buddhist divide in the author's own perception, though it may seem like a move to an outside observer. Also consult the revealing discussion by Shankara in his Bhaazya on Brahmasuutra 2.1.1, where he explicitly argues in favor of accepting only those portions of the SmRtis of Kapila etc. which do not contradict the Vedas: smRtivipratipattau satyaam na shrutivyapaashrayaNaad anyan nirNayakaaraNam asti ... shruty-anusaara- ananusaara-vizaya-vivecanena ca san-maarge prajnaa samgrahaNiiyaa. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 3 May 1996 aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca wrote: > I began the following message on 26 April as a response to J. > Silk's question and wrote about three paragraphs. But I can complete the > response only now. You see,the end of April is the deadline for filing > income tax returns in Canada, and, as a Sanskitist, I have so many sources > of income that I get exhuasted just keeping track of my team of > accountants. > > The delay has bestowed on me the advantage that I can take into > account even the more recent postings by S. Vidyasankar, S. Lindquist, D. > Lusthaus and B. Kellner. > > Silk asks an important question: > >Do you mean to suggest that aagama appears, for eaxmple, in a Sa.mkhya > text, it might refer to Buddhist Aagamas? Is there any evidence for this? > It seems to me l highly unlikely, if for no other reason than that for > non-Buddhists Buddhist texts should *not* be any type of aagama. Is it not > correct that generally (and perhaps there are exceptions) for Vedic / > Brahmanical / Hindu writers, Buddhist texts -- rejecting as they do the > authority of the Veda -- cannot themselves be any sort of authority?< > > Silk's second question is implicit in Vidyasankar's following > lines: > >... on "Agama-SAstra" - I interpreted Prof. Aklujkar's comments in > a general sense. Thus, the "canonical" set of works of the Brahminical > tradition would collectively be called Agama, of which the GK intends to > give the purport. Of course, the Brahmin schools would have excluded any > Buddhist texts from this canon. As far as the Buddhist traditions are > concerned, by the time of the GK, the various sUtras and/or the Pali > works had already attained the status of "canon", and could be labelled > Agama with some justification. The Brahmins's canon is "Agama" for the > Brahmin, and the Buddhist's canon is "Agama" for the Buddhist. I didnt > think a cross-application of the two was intended in Prof. Aklujkar's > remarks.< > > The short answer to Silk's question is that "there are exceptions." > > > To expand: > 1. The word aagama in itself has a range of meanings as I have > incidentally and briefly pointed out in an article in Indo-Iranian Journal > 13.3 (1971):169-70. A study of the context is necessary in most cases to > determine the meaning likely to have been intended by an author. > 2. A puurva-pak.sin (in an uttara-pak.sin's statement of his views > as is invariably the situation in Skt texts) referring to his > authoritative sources as aagma and an uttara-pak.sin doing the same with > respect to his authoritative sources are not at issue here. This is what we > would expect them to do as Vidyasankar's remarks suggest. All we have to > do is to remember that even these uses would not be immune to the > consideration pointed out in (1). > 3. The real issue then is: Did we have thinkers in India whose > notion of what constituted an aagama for them was composite or could > conceivably be composite? Were there philosophers, in particular, who > crossed or came close to crossing the Brahmanical and Buddhist divide of > authoritative sources? The remarks by Silk and Vidyasankar assume that > there were no such thinkers. The prevailing assumption in Indology is the > same. What I have been pointing out during the last six years or so in my > lectures and paper presentations is that this assumption is not justified. > Things are not as rigid and unqualified as they have been taken to be. > While I cannot point to a Brahmanical thinker who explicitly says that > Buddhist or Jaina aagamas are acceptable as authorities to him, I can point > to Brahmanical thinkers who came close to crossing the Brahmanical and > Buddhist divide and indicated that they were doing so. > > (A justified reconstruction of India's past, it seems to me, is one > in which a spectrum of thinkers with differing degrees of inclusivism and > exclusivism is admitted. The present paradigm or model does not do justice > either to the totality of historical evidence that is available nor to the > nature of (what we would call) religious life as it was lived in India. > However, to argue this point, I would need several dozen pages, which this > forum cannot, rightly, make available. Hence I will draw attention only to > some of my writings in which I have already begun to offer the necessary > evidence, albeit in the context of some other larger issues: In press: > "The Early History of Sanskrit as Supreme Language" which is to appear in > the Proceedings of the Status and Ideology of Sanskrit volume being edited > by Dr. Jan E.M. Houben. Shortly to be sent for publication (I hope): "The > semantic history of 'Vedaanta' and the paradigm for the study of Indian > philosophy. and *Sociolinguistic History of Ancient and Early Medieval > India: Need for a Paradigm Change,* which is a monograph-length critique > primarily of the views of my learned friend Professor Madhav M. Deshpande.) > > For example, there were Brahmanical authors who thought of Buddhist > aagama(s) as ultimately having their origin in the Vedas, especially in the > artha-vaadas of the Vedas. See Aklujkar 1991 = "Bhart.r-hari s concept of > the Veda." In Panels of the VIIth World Sanskrit Conference. Vol. IV-V. > Ed. Bronkhorst, Johannes. Pp. 1-18. Leiden: E.J. Brill. Pp. :1-2 and the > notes going with them are especially relevant. > From the preceding it does not follow that the aagamas of the > Buddhists (and the Jainas) carried the same authority for Brahmanical > authors as the 'regular' Vedic aagamas or even that the non-Vedic aagamas > had to have authority. One could still introduce a slip between the cup of > authority and the lip of the heretic. All one had to do was to say that > while the source was impeccable the reception or the recepient of the > source was not impeccable. Some thinkers, like Kumaarila, were highly > sectarian who accused the Buddhists of forgetting their origin. Some, like > Jayanta, were willing to accept the Buddhist teachings (and hence the > Buddhist aagamas) at least in those areas in which the conduct prescribed > was ethically better than the conduct recommended by the ;Saaktas etc. > Some, like Bhart.r-hari and (very probably) Gau.da-paada, transcended the > aagma distinction by taking a 'tair aya.m na virudhyate' position -- by > achieving a philosophical ascent (although Bhart.r-hari's manner of > achieving this ascent was not the same as Gau.da-paada's). > > (The preceding observation clearly has relevance for such > discussions as the ones prompted by questions like 'Was Bhart.r-hari a > Buddhist? and 'Did Gau.da-paada borrow his philosophy from the Buddhists?' > In my writings under preparation, I am attempting to answer these > questions. Suffice it to observe here that the discussions of these issues > which are so far available in print are either informed (or misguided) by > the same paradigm as the one I am challenging or they are methodologically > rather naive.) > > D. Lusthaus and B. Kellner have made a valuable contribution by drawing > attention to texts which contain "-kaarikaa" in their titles. It is evident > that a kaarikaa text need not always be a commentary (in the bhaa.sya, > tiikaa etc. format) on some root text. However, this negative or > absence-based observation does not imply that the term "kaarikaa" must have > some special meaning beyond 'mnemonic/summary verses.' The evidence for > such a special meaning, if any, must still be gathered by studying the > early contexts in which the term occurs. > > It seems unlikely to me that, in the early period, the term "-kaarikaa" > could have, as suggested by Vidyasankar, the sense 'one which brings about > / fashions (the systematic development of a school).' The later usage does > not show any vestiges of such a connotation. Secondly, the perspective > ('systematic : unsystematic,' 'beginning : development') which is implicit > in Vidyasankar's suggestion does not seem to be present in early Indian > thinking, especially in the thinking revealed in nomenclature. > > Lindquist adds thus to his earlier postings: "... there seems to me > something more at work in terming a text a kArikA, rather than just the > fact that it just consists of kArikAs ... it > DOES appear to make a difference of whether it is plural or singular (not > grammatically, of course, but as a more 'technically used' term). I do not > know about the Sam.khya kArikA, but the Gaud.padIya kArikA is not referred > to as a text in the plural-perhaps the singular is used to denote genre > (with the understanding that it means verses in the plural) whereas the > plural (and dual, obviously) are to refer to groups of passages, but not > the text as a whole. All plural references I find with the Gaud.padIya > kArikA as 'kArikA's are referring to limited groups of verses and not the > text as a whole. < > > What I have observed two paragraphs ago indicates why one must not insist > that the term "kaarikaa" has a special meaning along a 'text : text-unit' > trajectory and why the observation made by Professor Cardona probably > constitutes an adequate answer. Furthemore, unless it is established that > those who referred to the Gau.dapaadiiya kaarika(s) in the plural were > making a distinction between a group of verses and the whole text *even > when they did not give us the beginning and the end of a verse group,* we > cannot be certain that they did not have the text as a whole in mind. > > It is possible that Lindquist's difficulty in accepting absence of the > specified distinction arises because he is unconsciously under the > influence of titles such as bhaa.sya, .tiika, v.rtti, pa;ncikaa, vyaakhyaa, > viv.rti/vivara.na etc. and titles such as diipikaa, candrikaa, kaumudii, > sudhaakara etc. Assuming I am justified in this guess, I would like to > point out that while the former group of title words did convey genre > distinctions (especially in the early period, although we cannot be > entirely clear about what those distinctions were), the second group of > 'poetic' titles belongs to a later period of Indian literature. The earlier > titles are prosaic and functional. Suutra, kaarikaa, bhaa.sya, v.rtti, > vivara.na etc. refer only to formal features. While referring to a genre, > they do not seem to refer to distinctions such as 'part : whole,' > 'influential : non-influential,' or 'major : nonmajor.' > > If I still have your attention, I would like to make one more point: It is > important to remember in the present context that a usage like > Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa is a short form for Gau.da-paada-k.rta-kaarikaa, > Gau.da-paada-pra.niita-kaarikaa etc. It is unlikely to occur in good > Sanskrit unless a distinction from some other kaarikaa text is intended. > For example, one does not say Kaali-daasa-raama-kathaayaam in good Skt > unless one has at the back of one's mind an awareness of the Raama story as > narrated by someone else like Vaalmiiki or Bhava-bhuuti and unless one's > intention is to refer specifically to Kaali-daasa's Raama story. While the > first members of tat-puru.sa compounds routinely qualify/delimit the > meaning of the following members, there is a difference in the connotation > (naturalness and frequency) of expressions like > Gau.da-paada-k.rta-kaarikaa, on the one hand, and expressions like > Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa, on the other. This consideration would suggest that > the Gau.da-paada's kaarikaas are unlikely to receive the designation > Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa unless the kaarikaa texts of others were already > generally known. A similar consideration would apply to the title > Saa.mkhya-kaarikaa. > ashok aklujkar > Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, > Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 > > > From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Mon May 6 02:53:55 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 10:53:55 +0800 Subject: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Message-ID: <161227024269.23782.2159510648163187788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:10 AM 5/5/96 BST, you wrote: >Robert Zydenbos writes: > >Perhaps we should also reflect on what "Indian" means. Isn't "India", as a >cultural entity, something closely tied with the spread of Sanskrit as a medium >of intellectual exchange? > Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> Further, since before the time of the Buddha and MahAvIra (both who >>deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to Sanskrit only >>after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), no one was >>born into a family whose native language was Sanskrit. Especially the >>Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a language as >>medieval Latin. >> To say that No one has Sanskrit is not the native language is probably not correct. THere is a village in Karnataka State in India (the name escapes me, may be some one else in the list knows?) who speakes only Sanskrit. While the parents in this village may know other languages, would you say that the children who grew up hearing (only) Sanskrit would consider themselves to be native speakers of Sanskrit. Further due to the 'Speak Sanskrit" movement in India, where by there is an increasing amount of families who speake only Sanskrit at home, and the children born into these families become "native" speakers of the language. The question as to who is Indian need to be answered not on the basis of languages, but on the basis of the indeginous people of the Indian subcontinent. Regards...Das From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon May 6 21:18:31 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 11:18:31 -1000 Subject: Borrowings ( was Re: Filliozat, etc.) Message-ID: <161227024300.23782.14163248181599606291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > there would be little dispute about "the borrowing of ideas". Enrica > Garzilli informs me that she believes that there was a certain amount of > borrowing in the other direction [i.e., from Greek to Indic]. No doubt, > there was. But I am confident that subsequent research will show that the > Greeks learned a quite few things from those dark-skinned, scantily-attired > "gymnosophists" and philosophers, from India, as well as from other peoples I was under the impression that the systematic study of grammar/language is considered an uncontroversial example of Greek "borrowing" from India... or am I mistaken? Regards, Raja. From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon May 6 17:09:52 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 13:09:52 -0400 Subject: Cynics & sources Message-ID: <161227024295.23782.2927169389589715434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am grateful to Enrica Garzilli for her references and discussion of sources. This is the sort of attention to specifics that, obviously, the matter requires. And in fact I have examined some documents and would like to dispel the implication [intended?] that the term "gymnosophist" was not used by the Greeks themselves. While it is true that Strabo does not use this term, probably because Megasthenes also did not, the term is frequently used by others, e.g., Plutarch on Alexander [64]. I find this also a very suggestive passage, because it shows Alexander interrogating ten captured Brahmins ["gymnosophista?"] about their role in the rebellion of Sabbas. They come off skillfully, using verbal dexterity to avoid the death that awaits the first one to give Alexander a wrong answer. This skill in debate, the use of paradox, must have impressed Alexander,as it surely did Plutarch, for, as the story goes, Alexander released them all. As a Vedicist interested in brahmodyas and skill in debate, I find that this legend confirms two things: first, that this verbal dexterity is, and continues to be, indeed a mark of Vedic and Brahminical culture; and second, that the Greeks [certainly those of the first few centuries CE, but almost as likely those up to and perhaps preceding Megasthenes] also perceived that this was a mark of Brahmins, gymnosophists though they were. With hunger for learning, George Thompson From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon May 6 21:21:45 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 14:21:45 -0700 Subject: aagama-praamaa.nya Message-ID: <161227024302.23782.13544631847582492810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two points in Madhav Deshpande's communication of 6 May which I found particularly important are the following: Point 1: > Currently, I am working on a text called VedavicaaraH by Dvivedi DraviDa Shyaamashaastri composed around 1890s. Among other things, the text refers to practices of Brahmans which are contrary to what is prescribed in the orthodox tradition (asaampradaayika). The author says that acts like pulling out one's hair and worshipping the Caityas are prescribed in the Shaastras of the Naastikas, and yet many Aastika Brahmans perform these Naastika acts. While the author clearly views this as despicable, there is a clear admission of behavioral fluidity.< The observations I would add to this would be: (a) Such a behavioral fluidity is found from a very ancient time in India. It is not a relatively recent phenomenon. That is why I used the phrase "religious life as it was lived in India" in my last posting. (b) The reactions to such fluidity were as varied in India as they would be in any other self-reflective culture. One must assume a spectrums/spectra of conservatism, puritanism, liberalism etc. in the reactions. (c) It is not enough to be aware of (a) and (b) as mere generalizations or abstractions. They must be reflected in one's reconstruction of particular historical issues, changes, developments etc. Point 2: > If certain ideas from non-Brahmanical traditions were perceived as being not contradictory to the Vedic tradition (vedashaastra- avirodhii tarkaH), their acceptance would not necessarily signal a move across the Brahmanical and Buddhist divide in the author's own perception, though it may seem like a move to an outside observer. < Agreed. But we must at the same time bear in mind the following considerations: (a) A culture's mechanisms or devices for expressing preferences for (what *we* would consider) a conservative position or a liberal position can be different from the mechanisms or devices of another culture. An author's perception may *essentially* be the same as ours, although it may not appear in terms such as 'conservative,' 'liberal' etc. or as 'Brahmanical and Buddhist divide' etc. (b) Even under the possibility of a different idiom, there is a plurality available. Also, the same idiom does not cover an identical extent of liberalism, inclusivism or appropriationist approach in each instance. For example, saying that even the Buddhist aagamas come from the Vedas can be an idiom for liberalism, inclusivism (in a negative sense of the term) or appropriation in India, although it may not contain any words corresponding (even approximately) to 'liberalism,' etc. Similarly, saying that the Buddha is the ninth incarnation of Vi.s.nu can have a range of motives behind it. For some, Vi.s.nu would be Buddha only in his trickster aspect , a god who deludes the demons by spreading a false, Buddhist, philosophy among them. For some, the hidden message of a statement of the described kind would be that one should accommodate the Buddha as a deity but not what his followers practise or preach. For others, like Jaya-deva, the author of the Giita-govinda, the intention behind accepting the Buddha as the ninth incarnation of Vi.s.nu could be one of genuine respect for the Buddha's message of compassion. If an author like Bhart.r-hari or Gau a-paada accommodates what seem to be Buddhist views (as far as our extant sources go) under a Veda umbrella and does not discriminate against them any more than he would against the views of others in the Brahmanical tradition (that is, relegates them all to a lower level of truth), I think, we would be justified in concluding that he *essentially* crosses the 'Brahmanical : Buddhist' divide or comes close to crossing it. Now some minor comments: Deshpande writes: 1. > I would like to draw attention to my discussion of relatively late Buddhist Sanskrit texts like Lalitavistara which shows that the Buddhist tradition by this time shows an increasing absorption of both the Brahmans as a social category and its prestige, as well as the Vedic traditions of the Brahmans. In fact the text says that the Buddhist gods taught the Mantravedashaastra to the Brahmans. I related this rising star of the Brahmans within the Buddhist tradition to the fact that almost all the Mahayana teachers were born Brahmans converted to Buddhism, apparently without shedding all the Brahmanical baggage. For details, see my Sanskrit and Prakrit, Sociolinguistic Issues, Motilal Banarsidass, 1993, pp. 7-8. < In the publication I referred to as 'under preparation,' I point out that the explanation in terms of Brahmins bringing their past baggage into Buddhism does not constitute a satisfactory or adequate explanation. (Sorry for withholding the details, Madhav. I am anxious to send the full version to you. But have not so far found time to update my current draft by introducing the details from your recent Marathi book on Sanskrit-Prakrit relations.) 2. >Another interesting discussion occurs in the Mahaabhaazya (Kielhorn edn, vol. I, p. 3). An objector says that if any cited verses are authoritative, then even a verse such as the following would be authoritative: "If a whole row of wine-pots with the color of Udumbara, when consumed, does not take one to heaven, how could it take one to heaven consumed during a sacrifice?" Patanjali responds by saying that this verse was sung by its honorable author under delusion (pramattagiita eza tatrabhavataH). However, what comes from this honorable author when he is not deluded would be authoritative (yas tv apramattagiitas tat pramaaNam). After classifying some sayings of an honorable person as deluded, and therefore, unacceptable, Patanjali still leaves room to accept other sayings of the same person, if they do not exhibit delusion. Of course, the most important point here is that the evaluative framework of Patanjali, or what he would consider delusion or lack of delusion, is indeed Brahmanical. < Deshpande's last point could be true, although I do not think that a strong enough case has been made to establish Pata;njali as a blindly or fanatically Brahmanical thinker -- one whose primary criteria for reading delusion in a statement would be lack of that statement's agreement with what the Brahmanical scriptures say. Such a stark depiction of Pata;njali is possible only if one imputes very specific, contextually unsupported, motives to statements like iha pu.sya-mitra.m yajayaama.h. It should also be noted that the term tatra-bhavat in Pata;njali's remark can be taken in two ways: as a sarcastic reference to a thinker of Caarvaaka or Lokaayata persuasion (compare the type of argument that is found in the (B.rhaspati?) verses quoted in the Caarvaaka-dar;sana chapter of the Sarva-dar;sana-sa graha; in his 1979 publication, Deshpande takes the verse as possibly coming from a Buddhist author) or as a (possibly playful) reference to Pata;njali's interlocutor. In the latter, non-agentive, sense of the genitive,Pata;njali's sentence would mean: 'What you cite was uttered by someone in a drunken state. Pata;njali's intention then may not be one of classifying thinkers according to his evaluative frame -- of pre-judging pramattataa or apramattataa according to a Brahmanical criterion. His following sentence yas tv apramatta-giita.h sa pramaa.nam would correspondingly state a general truth all of us would (I hope) accept. ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon May 6 22:40:08 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 15:40:08 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024303.23782.2237334839089978019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry wrote: >I would very much appreciate information on the following please: 1) I have read that G. Cardona projected to write a 8 volume series on PaaNini's grammar; the first one being 'PaaNini, his work and its traditions', publ. Motilal Banarsidass(1988). How far has it now reached and what are the next titles please? 2) Has anyone on this list read MiimaaMsaka YudhishhThira's 'sanskrita vyaakaraNa-shaastra kaa itihaasa' (tiin bhaagoN meN puurNa) [in Hindi], publ. Bhaaratiiya Praachyavidyaa PratishhThaan, Ajmer (1973)? Could you please say whether it is a complete survey of grammatical literature? 3) What book(s) would you recommend for someone wishing to have a good grasp on the subject of Sanskrit grammars, both PaaNinian and others, (Hindi & English preferably) please?< Since Prof. Cardona is a member of this list, I suppose he will answer at least question (1). Y. Miimaa.msaka's SVSI is a monument of dedicated work carried out in often unfavourable circumstances. No other account of Sanskrit grammatical literature is as comprehensive as his. Miimaa.msaka's general stance is that of an Arya Samajist historian and he was not familiar (because of library limitations,I suppose) with much work on Skt grammar published outside India. Still, if one learns to take his dating and chronology cautiously, his work can be put to much good use. Please note, however, that there is an expanded more recent edition different from the one you refer to (in the entry I am reproducing below some letters with diacritical marks must be figured out on the strength of contexxt): Yudhi hira M^ma saka. 1984 = sa vat 2041. Sa sk ta vyakara a- astra ka itihasa. 3 volumes. Last, expanded edition= fourth edition of vol. 1, third of vol. 2, and second of vol. 3. Bahalaga ha: Author. Distributor: Ramalala Kapura ras a, Bahalaga ha. In response to your question 3, I have found Prof. Cardona's volume to which you refer and Prof. Ram Nath Sharma's A.s.taadhyaayii translation to be most helpful. There is also a useful translation by Prof. S.D. Joshi being published by Sahitya Akademi, New Delhi. -- aklujkar ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon May 6 15:58:52 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 16:58:52 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024287.23782.10771331585799481030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So far, the discussion on philosophical influence and intellectual/cultural loans has been extremely interesting and useful - some of the wisdom has ended up in my database. I have a few questions and remarks: RZ mentions Schopenhauer and Nietsche as classical examples of the influence of Indic philosophy on European philosophy. Could somebody give us a more detailed survey of exactly what this influence was. (Nietsche was an acquaintance of Andreas, the Iranianist, but my reading of "Also sprach Zarathushtra" (admittedly many years ago) did not impress on me the feeling that Nietsche was much influenced the real "Zarathushtrian" thing). So: which ideas did N. borrow from India? (I'll readily admit my ignorance of the history of ideas here!) Also, a few remarks on the general influence of Indic ideas on modern western philosphy would be appreciated. (New Age in my opinion still has the status of a fad, and I think that people may lose interest in such things as karma and yoga in some years. But it is interesting to notice that as much as 30 percent of the Norwegians these days believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is an appealing idea, and it is possible that it may have come to stay). As for European antiquity, it quite correct that the Romans imitated the Greeks. But if you read Cicero, you will find that this was not a matter that was easily accepted by all Romans. Cicero comes across as a cultural prophet trying to blow some thinking into an intensely practical and anti-intellectual culture. This lack of intellectual creativity laid Rome open to influences not only from the Greeks, but later on also from the Orient. Check out all the Oriental cults (including Christianity) that came to Rome in the first centuries of our era! Having said this, we are still far away from a formula that would enable us to deal with the problem of heritage as against borrowing as against spontaneous development of the same idea in two different places (the Newton - Leibnitz effect: Both discovered infinitesimal calculation [hope this is the right word] at about the same time without influencing each other). In the case of Indo-European culture, Indians, Iranians, Greeks, Norsemen, and the Irish all show a number of cultural similarities. I would still maintain that if an idea is persistently found throughout the Indo-European area, it is a stronger hypothesis to assume that it is part of a common heritage than to assume that it was borrowed in one particular area (such as e.g. Greece) from another area. (I'll leave aside the complicating possibility that a version of an idea found in one culture influenced another version of the same idea in another culture). Any comments? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon May 6 17:56:01 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 18:56:01 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024291.23782.9888714773661960172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars Martin Fosse writes on 5/6/96: > >> Having said this, we are still far away from a formula that would enable us >> to deal with the problem of heritage as against borrowing as against >> spontaneous development of the same idea in two different places (the >> Newton - Leibnitz effect: Both discovered infinitesimal calculation [hope >> this is the right word] at about the same time without influencing each >> other). > >I have always understood them to have been in communication. > According to my encyclopedia, the two discovered infinitesimal calculations independently of each other. If more recent theories say otherwise, I would like to know about them. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From c.j.oort at pi.net Mon May 6 17:08:54 1996 From: c.j.oort at pi.net (c.j.oort at pi.net) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 19:08:54 +0200 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024293.23782.8307948028208319608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Replies to msg 05 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) > > le> Subject: Re: re Kalanos the gymnosophist > > le> One shouldn't conflate the attitudes and activities of > le> common folk with > le> that of the intellectual elites. American "artists," e.g., > le> typically went > le> to Paris, not London, to learn their craft. 20th century > le> French philosophy > le> is inconceivable without German philosophy (Bergson's > le> hegelianism; Sartre, > le> Merleau-Ponty, Levinas, et al. dependent on Husserl, > le> Heidegger, Neitzsche, > le> etc.). In the 19th century, e.g., Nietzsche repeatedly > le> writes that he > le> preferred French intellectual culture to that of Germany; > le> etc. etc. > >Of course language never was a door that was shut forever and for everyone (our >Kalanos thread is based on the very assumption of exchange of ideas across >linguistic / cultural boundaries!). I do maintain that in spite of this, German >and French philosophy on the whole show different tendencies (cf. e.g. Jean >Grondin's remarks in his _Der Sinn fuer Hermeneutik_, introduction. Grondin, by >the way, is neither French nor German but Canadian, like myself) [note, for >those who know me: all right, I am bi-national]. And the fact remains that >language can be an enormous hurdle, and India provides excellent examples of >this. Try to find an Indian colleague who reads any Indian language other than >his own with a degree of ease, or who reads non-English foreign publications. > >The examples which India provides are literally innumerable. Visit an Indian >university library and count the number of titles dealing with a minor British >thinker like Bradley, who is virtually unknown just across the water on the >European mainland. Indian colleagues tend to believe that F.R. Leavis and I.A. >Richards are the alpha and omega of literary criticism, while European >colleagues disregard them altogether. An astonishing number of Indian literary >people (scholars and creative writers) believe that T.S. Eliot is the greatest >poet of the century, no doubt also because they cannot read the French and >German contemporaries at whom Eliot must have had more than a close look. The >list of examples goes on and on. > >(As for Nietzsche: we should not take all his statements at their face value. >Many of them had a polemical and provocative intention.) > > le> In fact the lingua franca throughout the world today, > le> including Europe, is > le> English (or perhaps one should say "American"), and while > le> American culture > le> is exerting its influence internationally, especially among > le> youth, neither > le> Berlin nor Delhi are New York. > >If we were to vote for a lingua franca for use in INDOLOGY, my own vote would >go to German, as a language with which a long and consistent tradition of >academic excellence in this field is associated. But all that does not count. >New York as a hub of American culture does not count either. What counts is >where Wall Street and the Pentagon are. (That India once was British territory, >and that English comes from Britain, is merely a happy coincidence.) This is an >ugly, brutal fact, but it remains true (which is all right, in a way, since >after all we do need a common linguistic medium here, and now the matter has >been settled right away). > >The use of English, and modern popular Americophilia remarked upon earlier by >Lars Fosse, is another example of how the spread of a language and a culture >need not depend on total military subjugation: in this case economic strength, >backed by military strength, is enough. First the English language is there; >afterwards come the soap operas and CNN and MTV via satellite, which would be >meaningless without a basic knowledge of the language. New Delhi's desire for >high-tech things and the BJP's desire that India should be a nuclear-weapons >power, however ugly, are perfectly understandable from the point of view of a >culture that feels threatened by America. All of which is highly tragical, in >the classical Greek sense of the word. > > le> Cultural identity was not reducible > le> to common language. > >Quite true. Croatian and Serbian are virtually the same language, though >happenings in the former Yugoslavia indicate a lack of sense of ethnic and >cultural commonness. > > rz>Perhaps we should also reflect on what "Indian" means. Isn't "India", > rz>as a cultural entity, something closely tied with the spread of Sanskrit > rz>as a medium of intellectual exchange? > > le> That's one way to look at it. Another is: The Indo-Europeans > le> parted company > le> somewhere around eastern Iran/Afghanistan, one group > le> becoming the Persians > le> and the other the India-invading Aryans. The "good" gods [...] > >What I find missing in this view is the very important non-Aryan component in >Indian culture; and this component is precisely a chief cause in the >development of Sanskrit as a language distinct from Avestan. Prof. Kuijper and >others have written extensively on the Dravidian and other influences in the >formation of Sanskrit, and this is what makes Sanskrit "Indian" besides it >being, purely historically, a branch of ancient Indo-European. Sanskrit could >not have developed elsewhere, and after it assumed its definitive form in >India, it remained the pan-Indian language, unequalled by any other language >ever after. And this is why there is a grass-roots movement in India aimed at >reviving Sanskrit as an actively used language. > > le> Further, since before the time of the Buddha and > le> MahAvIra (both who > le> deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to > le> Sanskrit only > le> after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), > >But does this switching to Sanskrit not confirm my view? Pali and the various >forms of Prakrit (N.B.: not one single variety of Prakrit!) which Jaina authors >used could not survive in the course of time as pan-Indian media for the >exchange of ideas. Only Sanskrit could. > > le> no one was > le> born into a family whose native language was Sanskrit. > le> Especially the > le> Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a > le> language as medieval Latin. > >But this does not matter (nor does it matter that many ancients who wrote in >Koine Greek were not born Greeks, or that Germanic people in northern Europe >wrote mediaeval Latin, or that Indian Muslims wrote in Persian and Arabic). Or >rather: it _does_ matter, in the sense that it confirms my view (see my >previous paragraph). > >Robert Zydenbos >Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Dear Mr Zydenbos, I do'nt want to be a nit-picker, but because you mentioned F.R.Leavis I would like to comment about my experience of taking a degree in English ( I'am a native speaker , however an American) at Leiden University in the '60's, Leavis was the cat's pyjamas as far as English literary theory was concerned, eventhough he wrote a very, sometimes grammatically, obscure English. Perhaps you are too young to know the impact Leavis had on a generation of "English " European scholars. This message only to underline that we must tread softly with our statements. Met vriendelijke groeten, Marianne Oort C.J. Oort tel: 31-(0)70-5116960 fax: 31-(0)70-5140832 From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Mon May 6 20:42:38 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 19:42:38 -0100 Subject: Filliozat, etc. Message-ID: <161227024310.23782.13662036302910432899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk) jdcu> Is not this wishful thinking? What did the Greeks have jdcu> that would have jdcu> been of any value to the Indians? They already had a rich jdcu> philosophic jdcu> language and tradition, and a highly analytic one at that. jdcu> The Greeks jdcu> had no apparent tradition of meditation or spiritual jdcu> techniques. Halbfass (in his _Indien und Europa_) mentions Greek influence in astronomy and astrology, noting that there are traces of European terminology ("horaa", for instance) and even indications in titles, such as "yavanazaastram". There are also such references in Al-Biruni's work on India (again mentioned in Halbfass' book). jdcu> Greek thought up to and beyond Plato, right up to Plotinus, I jdcu> would say, laid jdcu> alongside Indian thought like Buddhism and Vedanta is jdcu> nothing better than jdcu> infantile gropings. Yea. (I hope there are heads of philosophy departments in the West seeing this.) Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon May 6 18:46:05 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 19:46:05 +0100 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227024298.23782.6697199209828272390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I would very much appreciate information on the following please: 1) I have read that G. Cardona projected to write a 8 volume series on PaaNini's grammar; the first one being 'PaaNini, his work and its traditions', publ. Motilal Banarsidass(1988). How far has it now reached and what are the next titles please? 2) Has anyone on this list read MiimaaMsaka YudhishhThira's 'sanskrita vyaakaraNa-shaastra kaa itihaasa' (tiin bhaagoN meN puurNa) [in Hindi], publ. Bhaaratiiya Praachyavidyaa PratishhThaan, Ajmer (1973)? Could you please say whether it is a complete survey of grammatical literature? 3) What book(s) would you recommend for someone wishing to have a good grasp on the subject of Sanskrit grammars, both PaaNinian and others, (Hindi & English preferably) please? Many thanks beforehand. bye, Girish Beeharry From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Mon May 6 22:15:00 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 21:15:00 -0100 Subject: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Message-ID: <161227024314.23782.5627203954029694253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) dns> Dan Lusthaus wrote: >>no one was >>born into a family whose native language was Sanskrit. Especially the >>Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a language as >>medieval Latin. >> dns> To say that No one has Sanskrit is not the native language dns> is probably not dns> correct. THere is a village in Karnataka State in India dns> (the name escapes dns> me, may be some one else in the list knows?) who speakes dns> only Sanskrit. Mattur, in central Karnataka (in transcription this would be "mattuuru" or "mattUru". I am not sure what the 'standard' Latin spelling is). That the people of Mattur speak "only Sanskrit" is a myth which some of the villagers themselves cultivate. They speak Kannada, and the entire village enthusiastically participates in the "Speak Sanskrit" movement. For instance, some of the ladies have hung up charts in their kitchens with parallel lists of names of vegetables etc. in Kannada and Sanskrit to help them in their Sanskrit practice. dns> While the parents in this village may know other languages, dns> would you say dns> that the children who grew up hearing (only) Sanskrit would dns> consider dns> themselves to be native speakers of Sanskrit. dns> Further due to the 'Speak Sanskrit" movement in India, dns> where by there is an dns> increasing amount of families who speake only Sanskrit at dns> home, and the dns> children born into these families become "native" speakers dns> of the language. Just as there are people (not very many) who are native speakers of Esperanto. Also so-called "high Hindi" is not the naturally developed language which its propagandists wish us to believe it is. (Which of course brings up the difficult question of what a "natural langauge" is, and to what extent _any_ language is "natural" or "artificial".) Let us not forget that there are a few families that have declared themselves Sanskrit-speaking for several generations (I know of one, and that Sanskrit is real and fluent Sanskrit), and not as a result of this recent movement. dns> The question as to who is Indian need to be answered not on dns> the basis of dns> languages, but on the basis of the indeginous people of the dns> Indian subcontinent. When I brought up that question, I was thinking of previous centuries, when India as a single political and legal entity did not exist, but in another sense did exist as a geographical expanse that shared a basic common culture. I am thinking of the kind of ideas that lay at the base of the legend that Sankaracharya founded four ma.tha-s in the "four corners of India". (This legend must of course be relatively recent.) I do think it is reasonable to suppose that the westernmost limit of this area (an earlier one) was the border between Aryavarta and Iran, and that this is the same as the border between the Vedic and Zoroastrian territories (as Dan Lusthaus also remarked; for the western limit, I think this is acceptable), ergo the same as the dividing line between Sanskrit and Avestan territories. And as Islam advanced, Sanskrit was pushed back. About being indigenous: according to recent archaeological research, if we go back _very_ far in time, it seems that India was not populated at all, and that all the various ethnic elements of the Indian mosaic came from outside: from Africa, from Southeast Asia (the Naga-Mizo-Burmese element in the northeast), and a few successive waves of people from the northwest, beginning with the first speakers of Dravidian languages. If true, then this would of course mean that all the fuss about "Aryans vs. non-Aryans as the true Indians", which was cultivated by the DMK and associated 'anti-Aryan' groups in the south, as well as by 'pro-Aryan' groups like the Arya Samaj, is rather baseless. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue May 7 02:20:47 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 22:20:47 -0400 Subject: aagama-praamaa.nya Message-ID: <161227024305.23782.15406909260632305258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is difficult to imagine who Aklujkar is referring to as upholding a view of "Pata;njali as a blindly or fanatically Brahmanical thinker." However, while acknowledging that he cannot find even one Brahmanical thinker who openly admits the authority of non-Vedic Aagamas such as as those of the Buddhists, it is difficult for me to comprehend that Aklujkar seems to be unwilling to accord Patanjali even the status of a strong believer in the Vedic tradition. From his purposes of grammar beginning with Vedarakzaa, one can find almost on every page of the Mahaabhaazya, references showing Patanjali's exclusive affiliation with the Vedic traditions. Unless one can point to strong evidence from the text of the Mahaabhaazya in favor of Patanjali's liberal attitudes toward non-Vedic traditions, I indeed fail to see the source of a liberal construction of Patanjali's views. But at this point, the way this discussion is headed on this network is probably intrinsically unfair, and I would rather have Aklujkar publish his extensive critique first, rather than casually making serious allegations. I would prefer to wait to see the whole logic of his critique laid out in print. At this point it is a guessing game for the members of Indology, including me whose name has been mentioned as a target of a lengthy critique. I have never been sure how much of the critique is targeted at some straw-man puurvapakzin, and how much at real people. Knowing how meticulous Aklujkar is in his work, I have no doubt that much of these details will be clarified in the forthcoming publications. A piece-meal pre-publication discussion on this network will probably lead to more misrepresentations and misunderstandings due to lack of sufficient space for discussion. Therefore, I have decided to withdraw from any further discussion of this forthcoming review of my work until it is published and is available for all readers. Madhav Deshpande From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Tue May 7 02:22:13 1996 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 06 May 96 22:22:13 -0400 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227024308.23782.15084118941429562952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hi, > >I would very much appreciate information on the following please: > >1) I have read that G. Cardona projected to write a 8 volume series on >PaaNini's grammar; the first one being 'PaaNini, his work and its >traditions', publ. Motilal Banarsidass(1988). How far has it now reached >and what are the next titles please? > >2) Has anyone on this list read MiimaaMsaka YudhishhThira's 'sanskrita >vyaakaraNa-shaastra kaa itihaasa' (tiin bhaagoN meN puurNa) [in Hindi], >publ. Bhaaratiiya Praachyavidyaa PratishhThaan, Ajmer (1973)? Could you >please say whether it is a complete survey of grammatical literature? > >3) What book(s) would you recommend for someone wishing to have a good >grasp on the subject of Sanskrit grammars, both PaaNinian and others, >(Hindi & English preferably) please? > >Many thanks beforehand. > >bye, > >Girish Beeharry 1. The revised and enlarged edition of volume I should appear later this year, though it was supposed to appear in 1995 but was delayed due to confusion at the editors. Also soon to appear is a revised and enlarged edition of PANini, a survey of research, with discussion of work up to 1995. The remaining volumes of PANini his work and its traditions ... are in the works, believe it or not. Volume II grew too voluminous, so that the next installment should be the volume on kAraka rules. This should appear in 1997 or 1998. In the meantime, students and I have produced a data base of the ASTAdhyAyI, MahAbhASya, KAzikA, zikSAs, the Rgveda (with padapATha), and Nirukta. This has been circulated to some and will be made available after more editing and addition of cross references. 2. As I said in the first edition of PANini, a survey of research, Yudhisthira Mimamsaksa's work is doubtless the most exhaustive treatment available in any language. However, I think you have to be cautious with respect to his datings. 3. R. N. Sharma's recent translation is very good. It should be complete in the next year or so. Regards, George Cardona From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue May 7 01:06:16 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 00:06:16 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024312.23782.2039552372910703834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (c.j.oort at pi.net) cjon> From: c.j.oort at pi.net (C.J. Oort) cjon> Subject: Re: re Kalanos the gymnosophist >Indian colleagues tend to believe that F.R. Leavis and > I.A. >Richards are the alpha and omega of literary criticism, while European >colleagues disregard them altogether. cjon> Dear Mr Zydenbos, cjon> I do'nt want to be a nit-picker, but because you mentioned cjon> F.R.Leavis I cjon> would like to comment about my experience of taking a cjon> degree in English ( cjon> I'am a native speaker , however an American) at Leiden cjon> University in the cjon> '60's, Leavis was the cat's pyjamas as far as English cjon> literary theory was cjon> concerned, eventhough he wrote a very, sometimes cjon> grammatically, obscure cjon> English. Perhaps you are too young to know the impact cjon> Leavis had on a cjon> generation of "English " European scholars. This message cjon> only to underline cjon> that we must tread softly with our statements. I fear that your comment is not relevant. I did not refer to students in Europe who study ENGLISH and ENGLISH LITERARY THEORY, like you did -- in that particular context, it is perfectly understandable that Leavis has a role to play. European students of SANSKRIT may read about Dandin and Abhinavagupta, but to my knowledge nobody else does. And I wish to stress here that this has absolutely nothing to do with Abhinavagupta's qualities as a literary thinker, which I find noteworthy. I was thinking of people on mainland Europe who thought about literature in general, who developed theories of literature and who had absolutely no reason to be Anglocentric in the way our Indian colleagues tend to be (due not to any deliberation of their own, but due to historical linguistic reasons, which is my point). I did an exam in general literary theory at Utrecht in the mid '70s, and in class there was just a passing mention that Leavis existed. During my two years in Germany, nobody ever mentioned Leavis: he is just as much out of the picture as Abhinavagupta is, and basically for the same reason. I'm not aware that Leavis played any major role in thinking about literature in, say, Germany or Russia, nor in the Netherlands -- among those who did not study English as their main subject! This too is part of my point, which you apparently missed. Ask a Dutch scholar of Dutch literature what he thinks about Leavis or Richards; and then ask a native Kannada-speaking scholar of Kannada literature the same question. The glaring difference of response which you will see is not a debatable issue. Hence I do believe that my statement holds good. And, as I stated in an earlier message, many more parallel statements can be made concerning India, which are equally valid. In the quick transmission of ideas, in the development of schools of thought, and also in the initial predisposition of persons who are confronted with a new idea, the role of language can hardly be underestimated. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Tue May 7 06:11:32 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 01:11:32 -0500 Subject: Reincarnation, a New Age fad? (was: Gymnosophists) Message-ID: <161227024318.23782.6836281061525149879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >New Age in my opinion still has the status of a fad, and I think that >people may lose >interest in such things as karma and yoga in some years. But it is >interesting to notice that as much as 30 percent of the Norwegians these >days believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is an appealing idea, and it >is possible that it may have come to stay. I personally do not think that you can classify people as "New Age" who have embraced beliefs from the East and who, though Western by birth, have incorporated philosophies and practices from Hinduism and/or Buddhism into their lives. This is not New Age, which is somehow a shallow, negative moniker. I suppose her contemporaries thought Annie Bessant and the Theosophy gang was a fad. There seems to be a persistence of this reoccurring "fad." Fads do come and go, but belief in the Dharma is not a fad. Even though outside of the occi-centric frame of reference, these ideas are here to stay among a globalized audience. The world has changed since the days of the Gymnosophists and the Theosophists; in this deconstructed world individuals can absorb and infuse religious teaching from various sources into their philosophy of life, without a rupture. There are serious scholars, historical and contemporary, who have internalized the teachings that they study in an academic setting. It certainly doesn't seem faddish to me to spend decades studying and reading about Hinduism and Buddhism and to be personally changed by these ideas. I find it remarkable that some scholars can study these ideas and *not* be profoundly influenced by their experiences. I also find it odd that many scholars at traditional Western academic institutions, who do have personal beliefs centered in or associated with Eastern religions, often feel compelled to hide that fact, and not make it known to their Asian Studies colleagues, primarily because they are afraid of ridicule. Many such non-New Agers have believed in karma and reincarnation, and other ideas from the East, since they first heard about them, because to them, these ideas explained reality more adequately than say, the nuns at the convent school with their Jesus is the only way message. This type of intellectual, does not only study such religions as Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism, but recognizes some of the ideas as integral to his or her way of thinking. These people are passing their beliefs on to their children who grow up familiar with these concepts; they do not believe in eternal damnation, one savior, one holy book, etc. This is certainly not a New Age fad in which they will soon lose interest. Why is it that there are so many scholars who do not come out of the spiritual closet? Why is it also that many people who study Indology, etc., look at religion under a microscope and often disparage those who see a broader application of the ideas in their lives? Best, Yvette BTW, the likes of Pat Robertson undoubtedly think that reincarnation and karma, and beliefs central to many Indic religions, are New Age fads (designed by Satan!) and that Hinduism is an evil cult bent on mind control! From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon May 6 18:25:50 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 03:25:50 +0900 Subject: Nietzsche (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024296.23782.16076148147272740492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:11 1996-05-06 BST, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >RZ mentions Schopenhauer and Nietsche as classical examples of the >influence of Indic philosophy on European philosophy. Could somebody give >us a more detailed survey of exactly what this influence was. (Nietsche was >an acquaintance of Andreas, the Iranianist, but my reading of "Also sprach >Zarathushtra" (admittedly many years ago) did not impress on me the feeling >that Nietsche was much influenced the real "Zarathushtrian" thing). So: >which ideas did N. borrow from India? (I'll readily admit my ignorance of >the history of ideas here!) Wilhelm Halbfass has a section on Nietzsche's alleged borrowing from Indic traditions, Nietzsche's own comments on such traditions and what esp. Buddhism 'did for Nietzsche' in his "India and Europe", pp. 125. Halbfass also gives a number of references to other authors who have dealt with the matter in more detail, and, not to forget, also deals with Schopenhauer, Hegel, Schelling etc. > >As for European antiquity, it quite correct that the Romans imitated the >Greeks. But if you read Cicero, you will find that this was not a matter >that was easily accepted by all Romans. Cicero comes across as a cultural >prophet trying to blow some thinking into an intensely practical and >anti-intellectual culture. This lack of intellectual creativity laid Rome >open to influences not only from the Greeks, but later on also from the >Orient. Check out all the Oriental cults (including Christianity) that came >to Rome in the first centuries of our era! Just a side-remark, i.e. reference: A quite recent book which examines, amongst other issues, "latinitas" and the function esp. of translation of Greek texts into Latin in the process of "latinization" is Rita Copeland, _Rhetoric, Hermeneutics and Translation in the Middle Ages. Academic Translations and Vernacular Texts_, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press 1991. Copeland gives a lot of material, although at times, her conclusions seem not too well substantiated by her sources. Nevertheless, aside from providing useful reading for the Latinization of Greek philosophy and esp. literature, I found this book very inspiring for investigating the position of translation in appropriating foreign systems of thought in general. (No direct consideration of Indian/Oriental influences, though) Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From kharimot at sas.upenn.edu Tue May 7 07:54:53 1996 From: kharimot at sas.upenn.edu (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 03:54:53 -0400 Subject: Wikner PK files Message-ID: <161227024320.23782.16363315087983314338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. William Douglas and members of the list, I think I am successfully running Wikner's sanskrit package on my Mac. Instead of making all the pk files needed for Sanskrit package, I just let MakeTeXPK + MF generate necessary pk files on the fly. Although MakeTeXPK is a part of CMacTeX distribution, it also has been a part of, or recommended for the OzTeX distribution for a year or so. By the way, how was the porting of the preprocessor done? I have compiled the source code with minimum modification. This means the preprocessor uses default console included in CodeWarriar's ANSI library. However, the interface is not very much like a Mac application. So, I have been thinking of making the preprocessor a drag-and-droppable application. If the porting was done in this sense, there is no reason for me to do so. I would appreciate if Prof. Douglas could enlighten me on this. Also, If there are interests in the binary of the preprocessor, I will put it on my home page. Finally, a question regarding the skt font: I personally feel the tracking of the skt font (for that matter, the dn font also) is a bit too wide. I believe there is a way to reduce the value of tracking of those fonts. But I am not familiar with Metafont source, so I have been unable to do it myself. Is there a way to do this? With Best Regards, -- Kengo From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue May 7 05:23:30 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 04:23:30 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024316.23782.16426587611060098544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) le> [=Dan Lusthaus]> Robert Zydenbos writes: > German >and French philosophy on the whole show different tendencies le> Sure. And so do Sartre and Merleau-Ponty from each other; le> and so do le> Heidegger and Husserl from each other. French and German le> philosophies are le> however not the self-isolated linguistic communities you are le> suggesting. As Please, I never did suggest that. On the contrary: I _explicitly_ said that the linguistic door is never shut forever and for everyone. Go back and look, if you don't believe me. > (cf. e.g. Jean >Grondin's remarks in his _Der Sinn fuer Hermeneutik_, introduction. I referred to Grondin because he is conversant with French and German philosophy, hence knows what he is writing about, and I said that he is Canadian so as to avoid any assumption that he is a French or German chauvinist. It is useless to go into further detail here, and this should remain INDOLOGY and not become EURO-PHILOSOPHY-L. le> India will not le> regain its intellectual significance for the world until it le> outgrows that le> self-imposed myopia. If that's true, than the Sanskrit-only le> movement is le> going exactly in the wrong direction, though to add to your le> list of le> provincialisms, most of the Indians I know have little to le> zero le> comprehension of Sanskrit (unless a word or phrase sounds le> similar to what le> they do speak). Does this "outgrowing" and "regaining intellectual significance in the world", in your opinion, imply that India should at once dump all its own linguistic heritage and Anglify / Americanize completely, by any chance?... And again: please quote me correctly. I never wrote about a "Sanskrit-only" movement... Where did you get THAT idea? [and a bit further down:] le> from the provincials who see their own efforts at le> reappropriating their own le> past as either maintaining or fixing the status quo. Is anything that is not Anglo-American "provincial", perhaps? Why should we not allow people to take pride in their own heritages? As for the knowledge of Sanskrit among Indians: have you ever noticed the percentage of words in each and every living Indian language (with the exception of Urdu, Kashmiri and Sindhi, for obvious reasons)? When I speak Bengali, what I do is use a basic Bengali grammatical frame for my sentences and insert Sanskrit words whenever I do not know 'deshi' Bengali words. I am always understood. Common knowledge of a huge number of Sanskrit words across India is precisely one of the assumptions behind the creation of "high" Hindi, which is used in national televised news broadcasts across India, etc. I also hope you are aware that there are two daily Sanskrit radio news broadcasts all across India. (And this has nothing to do with the recently begun "Speak Sanskrit" movement.) Those broadcasts would be immensely silly if nobody could understand them, would they not? le> CBS Evening le> News is broadcast in Taiwan in English in the morning, and le> yet few le> Taiwanese understand a word of it without the Chinese le> subtitles. CNN might le> be on cable there, but I didn't run into it. So there is an effort to culturally penetrate Taiwan through the English language -- otherwise, the broadcasts would be in Chinese, just like BBC and VOA radio broadcasts. CNN is available in India, through Star Television (which is broadcast from Hong Kong, by the way). Without subtitles. > New Delhi's desire for >high-tech things and the BJP's desire that India should be a > nuclear-weapons >power, however ugly, are perfectly understandable from the point of view > of a >culture that feels threatened by America. le> Is "America" a typo for Pakistan, which is getting support le> for its own le> nuclear program from China? No typo. If you follow the Indian news media (particularly the newspapers) you will see that a very large number of people in India are utterly terrified by the USA and extremely sensitive to anything the USA does which can be construed as concerning India, even if this involves a great effort of imagination. There is the well established image of the US supporting Pakistan in nearly anything Pakistan does, and this was disastrously fuelled by Robin Raphael's activities, and she (and therefore the US) were a target of bitter attacks in the Indian press over several months. Recently an American diplomat insisted that India should follow certain US guidelines (on trade or the non-proliferation treaty, I forgot which) or feel "the pain of punishment". This phrase kept reappearing in the press for weeks after. The nuclear issue is complex. Here the Pakistan factor is the simplest, hence it is the one that appears most in debates in India. There is also the China factor. And there is still more. Just last January, at a conference in India, I heard an internationally highly respected professor say (in private) that not only does India need nuclear weapons, but also missiles with which Washington can be targeted, and then the Americans "will respect us, the way they respect the Chinese, and Indians will regain their self-respect." His reasoning was highly logical; on the other hand, whether the assumptions on which he based his reasoning were correct, is a debatable matter. Please note that I am not endorsing such views. Nor do I wish to say that such views are held by a majority of Indian decision-makers. I merely wish to bring to your attention that such views exist and are circulating in India. Now let us leave INT-POLITICS-L and return to INDOLOGY. > And this is why there is a grass-roots movement in India aimed at >reviving Sanskrit as an actively used language. le> I question the legitimacy of the word "reviving" in that le> sentence. But of course it is a reviving. What else would you call it? > le> Further, since before the time of the Buddha and > le> MahAvIra (both who > le> deigned not to speak Sanskrit, and whose followers turned to > le> Sanskrit only > le> after many centuries, and even then often in Prakrit forms), > >But does this switching to Sanskrit not confirm my view? Pali and the > various >forms of Prakrit (N.B.: not one single variety of Prakrit!) which Jaina > authors >used could not survive in the course of time as pan-Indian media for the >exchange of ideas. Only Sanskrit could. le> N.B. If my use of the plural word "forms" was not clear le> enough, then thank le> you for clarifying my intent (though, according to the le> grammar I learnt, le> the phrases "forms of Prakrit" and "Prakrit forms" are le> synonymous). (Actually, both those phrases can mean more than one thing, can they not?) I had some difficulty in understanding your "turned to Sanskrit [...] and even then often in Prakrit forms", since in my view Sanskrit is one thing and Prakrit another, hence we cannot have Prakrit forms of Sanskrit. So I concluded that you meant something like 'Sanskrit with Prakritisms', or forms of Sanskrit like Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. le> The switching to "Sanskrit" as a professional language is a le> sign of their le> increasing professionalism. It marked the sovereignty of the le> elite over le> thinking (precisely the problem that Buddha cited as the le> reason why he le> refused to speak Sanskrit). It was a professional lingua le> franca, which le> Jainas or Buddhists from all over India or the Buddhist le> world could find le> useful when interacting with their brethren of other le> tongues, and which le> also helped facilitate interreligious debates (in the flesh le> and textually) le> between the various "Indian" traditions. Yes, it served a le> professional le> pan-Indian function, and I've not tried to dismiss or le> belittle that, but it So we agree there. le> was not the *formative* factor in the development of those le> non-Vedic le> traditions, and as we grow more aware of the history of le> regional le> developments of Hinduism, the importance of the non-Sanskrit le> innovations is le> becoming more apparent. This depends on what we are willing to include as "formative". Living Jainism, as we know it today, is much closer to the weltanschauung and ritual practices which we find described in Jaina Sanskrit texts than in any Prakrit texts I know of. I fully agree that Western researchers, in general in the past, have not given non-Sanskritic sources their due. But the pattern repeats itself over and over: movements that develop within a geographically relatively limited area, using a non-Sanskrit medium, after some time Sanskritize. Jainism and Buddhism are ancient examples, but I can give a much more recent one as well. In 12th-century Karnataka, Virasaivism burst onto the socio-religious scene as a highly energetic and innovative movement. Virasaiva doctrine gives great importance to the Saiva Agamas (which are in Sanskrit); the main medium of communication among the Virasaiva saints of the period, among themselves and with society around them, was Kannada; and after this vigorous period of open debate and development, the doctrine as reached by concensus was written down, by Virasaiva authors... in Sanskrit. So what should we conclude about the role of Sanskrit in the formation of Virasaivism? le> Similarly, are Sikhs not Indians le> simply because le> they never Sanskritized the Adi Granth (and have no plans to le> do so, le> according to the latest I've heard)? Do you want to reduce le> Sikh political le> actions and motives to mere language? What about the Sants, le> Kabir, etc.? I hope you are aware that a section among the Sikhs wants to create Khalistan, i.e. they want break with India and no longer be Indians. And there is also an ongoing unrest in Muslim-majority Kashmir, where a significant number of people have violently expressed the wish to no longer be Indians. I am not interested in issues of modern constitutional law, issues of citizenship in the twentieth century, etc. Also I find it wrong to bring syncretistic phenomena into the discussion in this manner. We cannot pretend that Kabir and the Sants are purely Indian, and that they have not incorporated thoughts of non-Indian origin into their thinking. That is just as absurd as saying that the New Age movement is purely American and owes nothing to Asia. There is nothing wrong with Kabir and the Sants per se; and the exchange of ideas and mutual influences is what the Kalanos thread should be about. But for syncretism to exist at all, there should be identifiably different sources of ideas, in this case Islamic and non-Islamic, and the non-Islamic part is what we call "pre-Islamic Indian culture". Let me now turn the question around and ask you: if "Indianness" does not exist as a cultural phenomenon, closely linked with the Sanskrit language, then why should there be a "Speak Sanskrit" movement at all? Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Tue May 7 12:52:34 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 06:52:34 -0600 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024332.23782.6303186315741748696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos, who seems to have more time on his hands than I can muster at semester's end, writes: >Does this "outgrowing" and "regaining intellectual significance in the world", >in your opinion, imply that India should at once dump all its own linguistic >heritage and Anglify / Americanize completely, by any chance?... > >And again: please quote me correctly. I never wrote about a "Sanskrit-only" >movement... Where did you get THAT idea? I wasn't "quoting you" re: Sanskrit-only. I had just replied to another posting on our mutual thread, and didn't think my replies to each separate participant had to be isolated or structured in isolated quotations. I trusted you knew what you did or didn't say, and would recognize such while reading. As for putting words in someone's mouth, where in my post - which did discuss cosmopolitanization - did you get the impression that I was promoting re-anglisizing India? If my post said anything, it said that India has to expand beyond its love/hate mirroring of a British image kept alive in India that has not existed in Britain for decades. That's particularly true of India's elites and English speaking/writing intellectuals. >Is anything that is not Anglo-American "provincial", perhaps? Why should we not >allow people to take pride in their own heritages? Since when does cosmopolitanization require (1) self-hatred or (2) fastening on only a single foreign entity? >As for the knowledge of Sanskrit among Indians: have you ever noticed the >percentage of words in each and every living Indian language... Yes, which is why I added the caveat that they did understand Sanskrit words or phrases that their own language incorporates or allows. That's not the same as being able to read and understand the Tantravarttika or MadhyamakakArikA. That also doesn't deny that there are pundits well-versed in certain Sanskrit texts - usually accompanied by a professional modesty that they *only* know/teach those texts, even when others fall into the same category. My initial claim was that Sanskrit has, since the time of the Vedas, been an acquired, not a native tongue. That does not entail the claim (or absurdity) that some of the posters (not just Robert) are trying to push me into, viz., that Indians never knew, used, spoke, or conversed in Sanskrit. Those fortunate and intelligent enough to be trained in Sanskrit could use it, and some did to good effect. But when they went home to visit mom and talk to their sisters, they did not converse in Sanskrit. The fact that there are some who are trying to make that a reality *now* does not magically anoint those efforts with a history they never had. > [re: some Indians fearing America vis-a-vis nuclear weapons] Nor do I >wish to say that such >views are held by a majority of Indian decision-makers. I merely wish to bring >to your attention that such views exist and are circulating in India. That information was interesting. And while it indicates that in some quarters the "need" for nuclear weapons has come to include winning respect from the US, the original and more pressing "need" in the Indian psyche remains Pakistan. > le> I question the legitimacy of the word "reviving" in that > le> sentence. > >But of course it is a reviving. What else would you call it? Creating something that has never been while believing it has always been. >(Actually, both those phrases can mean more than one thing, can they not?) Yes. The same range of things. >I had some difficulty in understanding your "turned to Sanskrit [...] and even >then often in Prakrit forms", since in my view Sanskrit is one thing and >Prakrit another, hence we cannot have Prakrit forms of Sanskrit. So I concluded >that you meant something like 'Sanskrit with Prakritisms', or forms of Sanskrit >like Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I meant - in quick emailese - both: Buddhist hybrid Sanskrits (Buddhist "Sanskrit" deviates in more than one way from the paninian standard) and the various Prakrits. >This depends on what we are willing to include as "formative". Living Jainism, >as we know it today, is much closer to the weltanschauung and ritual practices >which we find described in Jaina Sanskrit texts than in any Prakrit texts I >know of. The other side of this coin is that Jainas are the first to admit that they know and remember very little about their actual tradition prior to the advent of Islam in India. The old sites with their monuments and their significances remain a mystery to most present day Jains. Jainism survived Islamic persecution in large part by transforming from a monastic to a lay tradition, and much was lost in the transition. "Living Jainism," sadly like much of India, is hoping to recover its lost past. > I fully agree that Western researchers, in general in the past, have >not given non-Sanskritic sources their due. But the pattern repeats itself over >and over: movements that develop within a geographically relatively limited >area, using a non-Sanskrit medium, after some time Sanskritize. Yes, there are these moments of homogenization, for a variety of factors. One of their results - even occasionally for Hindu traditions - is that these moments of homogenization either mark the decline of intellectual creativity, or gradually lead in that direction. That is not to say that, for instance, the moment Buddhism began to speak Sanskrit it immediately lost its creativity. On the contrary, Mahayanic Buddhism was quite innovative for a long period of time, and some of the grandest moments in Buddhist philosophy and literature occurred within the Sanskrit mode. But the process of homogenization finally sapped the distinctive thinking that was Buddhist; the popular version became more and more "hindu-ized", and the elite version became more and more specialized and rarified, until Buddhism disappeared (with the help of unsupportive muslims). SO maybe that means, in your model, that Buddhism was not Indian enough to survive as a distinct tradition? > le> Similarly, are Sikhs not Indians > le> simply because > le> they never Sanskritized the Adi Granth (and have no plans to > le> do so, > le> according to the latest I've heard)? What about the Sants, > le> Kabir, etc.? > >I hope you are aware that a section among the Sikhs wants to create Khalistan, I asked: "Do you want to reduce Sikh political actions and motives to mere language?" It's also interesting that you are willing to dismiss the Sants, etc., as something less than fully Indian. Although less obvious from the secondary literature, one could show that such thinkers as Ramanuja were also deeply influenced by Islamic thought. Not only does his theology mirror themes found virtually contemporaneously in the Islamic world - from Andalusia to India - but some of his arguments, and their style, also mirrors Islamic counterparts. On the other hand, by the second Muslim century, many Indian elements start to crop up in Islamic thought, so there was a two way influence. Put Sharia and Dharma'sastra aside, strip off the practices most blatantly distressing to Muslims or Hindus by the other (e.g., idol worship), and temper the more extreme orthodox positions of each, and on the common level Hinduism and Islam did have much in common, especially in the ascetic/aesthetic searching for spiritual insight. The Sants were perhaps more Indian than you are willing to allow. >Let me now turn the question around and ask you: if "Indianness" does not exist >as a cultural phenomenon, closely linked with the Sanskrit language, then why >should there be a "Speak Sanskrit" movement at all? For the same reason Ayatolla Khomeini wanted to establish an Islamic state in Iran, even though historically Shi'ism has always been differentiated from Sunnism by the former's utter distrust of the legitimacy of any worldly government. In other words - moha. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue May 7 10:15:57 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 10:15:57 +0000 Subject: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Message-ID: <161227024324.23782.16702962799394396396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 May 1996, Das Menon wrote: > >>Especially the > >>Paninian Sanskrit seems to have been almost as artifical a language as > >>medieval Latin. There are several layers of ideas in this statement. First, one could argue that "Paninian Sanskrit" as such didn't ever exist as a category of thought in pre-modern India. There was just Sanskrit, and there was its grammar. The Paninian grammar was paramount, although other systems were also widespread (e.g., Vopadeva in the NE.) at different times. People learned Sanskrit through memorization, recitation, word-by-word sentence analysis, and by learning Laghusiddhantakaumudi, etc. This process often started very young, so some children would grow up with Sanskrit. Given the right milieu, many Brahmins were, and are, as comfortable in Sanskrit as in their mother tongue. Many people live and work in a language other than their mother tongue. This is a pretty normal situation, and the fact that Sanskrit was not "mother", isn't as important as understanding the other socio-linguistic issues surrounding it, that have been so well described in Madhav Deshpande's studies. Secondly, I don't think medieval Latin was particularly artifical in any meaningful sense. In fact, one reason why it is so difficult is that it is heavily coloured by the vernacular languages of the countries in which it was used, and this is because it was growing closer to the vernaculars, and being used for more secular writings. Medieval Latin was certainly a great deal less artificial than Ciceronian Latin. -- Dominik Wujastyk From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue May 7 20:26:28 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 10:26:28 -1000 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024346.23782.271806467754911772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 7 May 1996, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > No typo. If you follow the Indian news media (particularly the newspapers) you > will see that a very large number of people in India are utterly terrified by > the USA and extremely sensitive to anything [........] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Often irritated/angered by the USA, that's all. Certainly not "utterly terrified." This could change if the Americans threaten to bomb us with beefburgers, thereby sullying our ritual purity. In that case, we may be forced to retaliate with cowdung. Tat tvam asi ("take that!") as the Three Stooges would say. Just a clarification... Raja. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue May 7 10:30:52 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 10:30:52 +0000 Subject: Linguistics Message-ID: <161227024322.23782.13701419979952889106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 May 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > 1) I have read that G. Cardona projected to write a 8 volume series on > PaaNini's grammar; the first one being 'PaaNini, his work and its > traditions', publ. Motilal Banarsidass(1988). How far has it now reached > and what are the next titles please? I think volume 1 is the only one out so far, but since Prof. Cardona follows this forum, perhaps he will let us know more. > 2) Has anyone on this list read MiimaaMsaka YudhishhThira's 'sanskrita > vyaakaraNa-shaastra kaa itihaasa' (tiin bhaagoN meN puurNa) [in Hindi], > publ. Bhaaratiiya Praachyavidyaa PratishhThaan, Ajmer (1973)? Could you > please say whether it is a complete survey of grammatical literature? It is a very comprehensive survey, and well worth using as a basic reference work. > 3) What book(s) would you recommend for someone wishing to have a good > grasp on the subject of Sanskrit grammars, both PaaNinian and others, > (Hindi & English preferably) please? Start with Cardona's Panini: A Survey of Research. Add a dash of Belvalkar and Mimamsaka for Panini as well as the non-Paninian systems. P-S Filliozat's _Grammaire Sanskrite Paninieenne_ (Paris: Picard, 1988) is -- to my mind -- an almost ideal introduction to Panini as a practical tool for doing Sanskrit grammar. -- Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue May 7 10:35:46 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 10:35:46 +0000 Subject: Borrowings ( was Re: Filliozat, etc.) Message-ID: <161227024328.23782.14766907546958694274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 6 May 1996, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > I was under the impression that the > systematic study of grammar/language is > considered an uncontroversial example > of Greek "borrowing" from India... or > am I mistaken? I'm afraid you are mistaken. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the Greeks had ever heard of Panini or his school, or any Indian grammatical school, let alone been influenced by them. Greek grammar as such started with Dionysius Thrax, and was developed more as a system of language learning (paradigms) and literary appreciation than linguistics proper. Dominik Wujastyk From tcahill at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Tue May 7 16:09:19 1996 From: tcahill at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Tim Cahill) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 12:09:19 -0400 Subject: Obituary of Ernest Bender Message-ID: <161227024337.23782.3637536516669213464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the Group, Ernest Bender's obituary may be found via the home page of Penn's Dept. of South Asia Regional Studies: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/asia/sars.html A request: I've been trying to send email to B. Kellner for quite some time now, without success. My messages keep bouncing back. I've tried a few different permutations on her address. All have failed - even copying and pasting her address as it appears in messages to the group. Help contacting her would be appreciated. The message is about the e-text of Santaraksita's "Tattvasangraha", nearing completion, which she had expressed an interest in previewing. best, Tim Cahill From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue May 7 12:06:24 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 13:06:24 +0100 Subject: Reincarnation, a New Age fad? (was: Gymnosophists) Message-ID: <161227024330.23782.14069680953258130108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yvette C. Rosser wrote: >BTW, the likes of Pat Robertson undoubtedly think that reincarnation and >karma, and beliefs central to many Indic religions, are New Age fads >(designed by Satan!) and that Hinduism is an evil cult bent on mind >control! Re the concept fad: In my opinion, for something to be more than a fad it would have to influence sections of a population profoundly for a long period, to the extent that the ideas involved become institutionalized (churches, congregations, organizations etc.). I would still claim that most of the ideas that have reached us from India during the last decades are "being tested" in Western society. With the spread of neo-racism and right-wing ideas, such ideas may lose ground precisely because they are derived from the East. Personally, I do not find it more objectionable that people believe in reincarnation than that they believe in the Christian doctrines. I would very much appreciate it if you did not associate me with people like Pat Robertson. I am a sceptical rationalist and prefer to have my views on reality shaped by modern scholarship and science, not by the sort of ideas propagated by Robertson and his ilk. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Tue May 7 17:25:19 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 13:25:19 -0400 Subject: Reincarnation, a New Age fad? (was: Gymnosophists) Message-ID: <161227024339.23782.17969067209754642830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although perhaps not directly related to this thread I thought I would mention it here: yesterday I had the happy chance to discover an article by Peter Masefield in _Religion_ (about 10 years ago, but I cannot recall the exact vol. #) called "The Muni and the Moonies" in which he argues for the early Buddhist Church as something of a cult (that should be "cult" I suppose), in many ways not unlike the moonies. The article, by one of the most interesting students of Pali literature working today, is well worth a read. Silk From LGoehler at aol.com Tue May 7 18:27:58 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 14:27:58 -0400 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024342.23782.8003623575048406107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja writes: >I was under the impression that the >systematic study of grammar/language is >considered an uncontroversial example >of Greek "borrowing" from India... or >am I mistaken? > > not only Greek borrowing from India but 19th century Europe borrowing from India. Greek and Latin writers were not able e.g. to distinguish a root or stem and an ending in a word. So they had a grammar that is not comparable to this of :PANini or to our contemporary grammar (that has Indian origins). What seems to be even more interesting is how far the "linguistic turn" in Western Philosophy can be traced back to Indian influences. One of the pioneers of this "turn", Ferdinand de Saussure, in his doctoral thesis that he wrote in Leipzig (L' employ du genitif absolu), displays a considerable knowledge of Sanskrit and Indian Grammar. K. Kunjunni Raja compares his signifiant-signifie (type and token) with the Indian zabda-artha-relation. But there is one more point that Saussure introduced into Western philosophy of language, that he could easily have borrowed in India: the synchronic view of language (abstraction from the historical *diacronic* development of language which is implied e.g.in theories as that of zabdanityatA) that made structural approaches to language possible. Both concepts formed cornerstones of the early theories of the linguistic-turn-philosophers and exert influence up to the present. - I wonder whether there is literature on the bhAratamUlatva of Saussure's theories? Lars Goehler PS. By the way, within the list I propose to reduce the length of the >pUrva- and >>pUrva-pUrvapakSa's to the reasonable extent, that can be somehow justified by the respective siddhAnta From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue May 7 14:45:20 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 15:45:20 +0100 Subject: Forwarded message: Sanskrit in Chinese Message-ID: <161227024334.23782.4887123495975430627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding the following message from another list: Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:18:50 CDT From: KozonoJ at gunet.georgetown.edu (Joseph Kozono) Subject: Sanskrit in Chinese? I am forwarding a message on behalf of a friend of mine which I think it will be the purview of this distinguished forum: From: a039320t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ( Emilio Arroyo) Date: Tuesday, May 7, 1996 7:04 am Subject: Query on translations I am wondering if anyone knows if classical Hindu texts such as the Rig Vedas, the Upanishas, and the Baghavadgita have been rendered into Ancient or even Modern Chinese? Are there also native Chinese commenaries on these texts? Finally, if there are translations or commentaries, what are they called in Chinese and where can one get hold of them? Thank you for the help. Emilio Arroyo a039320t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LINGUIST List: Vol-7-669. Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue May 7 23:16:19 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 16:16:19 -0700 Subject: aagama-praamaa.nya Message-ID: <161227024355.23782.11729571245426788051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What Madhav Deshpande suggests in his most recent posting on aagama-praamaa.nya is fair. It is all right with me if the present discussion is halted. A few clarifications, however, are in order, so that misunderstandings are not left. I have not allowed the discussion, which began with "kaarikaa" and naturally led to "aagama (because of the mention of Gau.da-paada-kaarikaas as Aagama-;saastra), to become a discussion of reconstruction of sociolinguistic history of ancient and early medieval India, the area in which my differences from Deshpande mainly lie. Whenever I reached in my comments a point where a consideration of sociolinguistic issues or evidence appeared relevant, I simply stated that I did not find it possible to accept a particular reasoning or explanation and indicated that further discussion would have to wait. The intention never was to put Deshpande, as an individual researcher, in a respondent's spot. Deshpande speaks of "casually making serious allegations." I think all I have expressed so far are differences of views that too as "minor comments" and entirely in response to the detail Deshpande himself provided. The earlier part of my last posting on aagama-praamaa.nya simply added some thoughts to two of his points in order to point out what additional considerations one needs to bear in mind in applying those points well to the Gau.da-paada-kaarikaa case. I hesitated when I included in my first message the clause "which is a monograph-length critique primarily of the views of my learned friend Professor Madhav M. Deshpande" after specifying "Sociolinguistic History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: Need for a Paradigm Change" as the title of my work in progress. On the one hand, I wished to avoid a personal mention. On the other, I ran the risk (a) of giving too wide a description of the scope of the work under preparation and (b) of having to answer inquiries for its copies based on an inaccurate assumption. Maybe, I should have leaned on the side of my first "one hand ! Please note that the word I have used above is "critique," which, according to the dictionaries easily accessible to me at present, does not imply unawareness of the merits of the work being examined or reviewed. (Also, I have no significant differences with Deshpande regarding the reconstruction of later sociolinguistic history of India and regarding his more technical writings in Paa.ninian grammar, historical linguistics etc. I consider them scholarship of a high order. ) As I have already indicated, my intention is to make my "Sociolinguistic" piece available to Deshpande prior to publication. I very much value his extensive reading and awareness of different possibilities of interpreting texts. Just as I do not wish to attribute anything inaccurately to him, I do not wish to forego the benefit of his critique and of correcting myself, if necessary, in response to his specific reactions. I am happy to receive the clarification that Deshpande does not consider Pata;njali to be "a blindly or fanatically Brahmanical thinker" but "a strong believer in the Vedic tradition. I have no problem with the latter description as I already stated in the last communication. Note : Deshpande's >the most important point here is that the evaluative framework of Patanjali, or what he would consider delusion or lack of delusion, is indeed Brahmanical< followed by my "Deshpande's last point could be true. I clarified what I meant by "blindly or fanatically Brahmanical thinker" in the present context by adding this clause immediately after the phrase: "one whose primary criteria [please correct to "criterion"] for reading delusion in a statement would be lack of that statement's agreement with what the Brahmanical scriptures say." If Deshpande is not assuming Pata;njali to be a strong believer in the Vedic tradition *to this extent,* I do not understand how the 'pramatta-giita : apramatta-giita' statements become relevant in the present discussion. Unless Pata.njali is seen as questioning the validity of a verse because it contains an attack on a Vedic custom (that of drinking liqour in Sautraama.ni), we will not be able to assert that he thinks of delusion as concommitant with anti-Vedic thought - an assertion, I believe, Deshpande needs to make the citation relevant. Note also that there is nothing in the immediate context leading us to believe that distinctions such as 'Vedic : non-Vedic' or 'Braahma.na : ;Srama.na were present in Pata;njali's mind when he made the 'pramatta-giita : apramatta-giita' statements. Having become aware of these difficulties, I suggested that the statements be taken, as many scholars before Deshpande seem to have taken, at their face value. Pata;njali knew the verse yad udumbara- ... as a drunken man's utterance (whether the man was of Caarvaaka persuasion would not matter). Under this assumption, the superfluous reference to the color of the drinking pots would be especially appropriate. The man uttering the verse could have been offering strange logic that drunks are frequently depicted as offering. All that Pata;njali is achieving through the passage kva punar ... pramaa.nam, I think, is another one of those light-hearted asides, stating relatively obvious truths in a charming way, which relieve the dryness of grammatical discussions in his work. It should be evident from the preceding that I have neither offered "a liberal construction of Patanjali's views," nor presented anyone as declaring Pata;njali to be a "blindly or fanatically Brahmanical thinker" in an unqualified sense of the adverbs. I am sorry if I have hurt Deshpande's feelings in any way. I think I have offered ample proof to establish that it was not my intention to do so. -- ashok aklujkar ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue May 7 23:17:55 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 16:17:55 -0700 Subject: Two questions/requests Message-ID: <161227024357.23782.12476805280653452863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. There are general references to the heretics ( ;Srama.nas, Aajiivakas, Paa.sa.n.das) in some *early* Brahmanical texts (by which I mean here the Brahmanical texts commonly assigned to the period before the beginning of the Christian era), but specific references to individual groups among the heretics, as far as I could so far find out, are not many (e.g. Kau.tilya 3.20.16 refers to ;Saakya and Aajiivaka). (I cannot, for example, recall a single reference to Bauddhas or Jainas or to things distinctively associated with the Bauddhas or Jainas in Kaalidaasa's works. A word like caitya does not count as evidence in my view. ) There are many ways in which one can interpret this specific absence. What I would like to do at first, however, is to collect these early references, especially the ones that refer to groups or divisions among the heretics. I would appreciate it if you would draw my attention to the relevant sources or discussions you might have come across. I am checking Vishvabandhu's VPAK and Kane's History of Dharma-;saastra. 2. As far as I could determine, there is no rejection or denunciation, specifically, of the Veda in the early Jaina and Buddhist and canons. On the other hand, terms such as vedagu and vedaantagu are used with highly positive values. When does the rejection of the Veda and things Vedic (as distinct from rejection of animal sacrifice and of Brahmin claims of superiority *based on birth*) begin to appear in the Jaina and Buddhist literature? I am aware of a verse attributed to Dharma-kiirti (it is referred to in one of Prof. Jaini's writings which I cannot locate at the moment.) in which, as I recall, the authority of the Veda is rejected. How far back in time in the Jaina and Buddhist traditions can we go in this respect? -- ashok aklujkar ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue May 7 16:02:31 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 17:02:31 +0100 Subject: Bharhut stupa Message-ID: <161227024335.23782.1471136626769492163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all the Indology susbscribers who sent us useful references on the Bharhut stupa. Francois Quiviger Paul Taylor Warburg Institute University of London From kichenas at math.umn.edu Tue May 7 22:33:21 1996 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 17:33:21 -0500 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024353.23782.15269274045704479125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just a short note on this issue. With Lance Cousins and Vidyanath Rao, one can certainly agree that Newton and Leibniz did not `live in a vacuum'. The Newton-Leibniz controversy has given rise to a very considerable literature. But no one doubts that they had access to a common background---which is one of the reasons *why* there was a controversy... What is however of interest to indology is that some results which we would associate with the infinitesimal calculus were known in India around 1550 at least. The best known case is probably the so-called Gregory's series, which is more and more often called nowadays the Madhava-Gregory series. Until we understand better the nature and context of Indian mathematics in this period, it seems of course difficult to address the question of the extent of the influence of these results on the West. It seems for instance that the MalaiyALam version of the texts is difficult to find in the US. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota 127 Vincent Hall 206 Church Street, S. E. Minneapolis, MN 55455-0487 E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Tue May 7 21:41:11 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 17:41:11 -0400 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024350.23782.18214690013355380975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > We might infer many things and most of our inferences would be invalid. > Newton was the student of Barrow, here, and that influenced him to go into > the type of problems I mentioned above whereas Leibnitz was more > 'philosophical' and sought questions about 'le meilleur des mondes' (as > Voltaire put it in his satirical portrayal of Leibnitz as Maitre Pangloss > in 'Candide'). Your statement above is too general. Both really INVENTED > quite new stuff!! The point is that neither was operating in a vacuum and they both knew what had been done in previous generation. Tanget calculation, area calculation and the relation between them was known earlier, for example to Barrow. > I wish to apologize for the lack of Indological content of the above. Me too, but this is not irrelevant to the topic at hand. After all, there would have been no calculus with out algebra and the input from Islamic, and thus indirectly from Babylonian, Indian and perhaps Chinese, cultures into European tradition is considerable with respect to algebra. If we did not have knowledge of the various translations done, this too might be ignored with ``there is no direct evidence of borrowing''. From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Tue May 7 08:54:48 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 17:54:48 +0900 Subject: Q: Appeal font users, please ... Message-ID: <161227024326.23782.1815683749385180742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to know whether anyone out there successfully uses IZIRB's APPEAL.TTF for Windows 3.1 with Winword 6.0. To me, it seems that (at least Japanese) Winword is unable to access some of the characters, in particular the visarga, because they occupy rather curious ANSI-positions. If anybody should know a solution to this (I know, I could juggle around characters with Fontographer again, but I am getting sick and tired of this), please contact me via private e-mail. From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Tue May 7 18:07:26 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 19:07:26 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024341.23782.9507980286466129448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse writes re Leibnitz-Newton: >According to my encyclopedia, the two discovered infinitesimal calculations >independently of each other. If more recent theories say otherwise, I would >like to know about them. Probably the issue as to whether there was communication between the two is not very relevant to this list. What is relevant is that they were both highly versed in very closely related systems of mathematical and scientific knowledge. In other words they are in no way valid as examples of totally independent simultaneous invention of knowledge. If we had only the information that Newton in England and Leibnitz in Europe both invented calculus in the seventeenth century, we might infer the existence of influences between British and Continental cultures at that time and we would be right to do so; for the invention of calculus was a development from and on the basis of the pre-existing mathematical knowledge which was largely a common heritage. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From thompson at handel.jlc.net Wed May 8 00:45:29 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 20:45:29 -0400 Subject: Editorial office of IIJ Message-ID: <161227024361.23782.13222361514583034686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need the snail mail address of the "Editorial Office" of the IIJ, but cannot locate it. Does anyone have it easily at hand? I would be grateful if it could be forwarded to me. Sincerely, George Thompson From HFArnold at aol.com Wed May 8 00:55:00 1996 From: HFArnold at aol.com (HFArnold at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 20:55:00 -0400 Subject: Mantras in Vedic rituals Message-ID: <161227024362.23782.14007060779282995247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone could recommend some good references on the use of mantras in Vedic ritual, or on the use of music in early Indian rituals." For mantras, the best place to start would be the book Mantra, edited by Harvey Alper. The hardbound edition contains an extensive annotated bibliography not included in the paperback. For Vedic ritual itself, I would recommend the introduction to Frits Staal's AGNI: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar, and the film of the same name by Staal and Gardener. Harold F. Arnold From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Tue May 7 21:55:38 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 20:55:38 -0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024406.23782.17125519678946359597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) lmfu> In the case of Indo-European culture, Indians, lmfu> Iranians, Greeks, lmfu> Norsemen, and the Irish all show a number of cultural lmfu> similarities. I would lmfu> still maintain that if an idea is persistently found lmfu> throughout the lmfu> Indo-European area, it is a stronger hypothesis to assume lmfu> that it is part lmfu> of a common heritage than to assume that it was borrowed lmfu> in one particular lmfu> area (such as e.g. Greece) from another area. (I'll leave lmfu> aside the lmfu> complicating possibility that a version of an idea found lmfu> in one culture lmfu> influenced another version of the same idea in another lmfu> culture). With regard to Indo-European religion, I recall having seen an article by A. Meillet in his _Linguistique historique et linguistique ge'ne'rale_ (Paris, 1948). I forgot the title of the article, but it is the very last one in the book. Going by a study of words and names in the ancient Indo-European languages for 'god', 'divinity' etc., he reached the conclusion that the earliest, common Indo-European religious thought was extremely inchoate, and that hence all the more highly developed forms of religion found among the early Indo-Europeans had to be later local developments, perhaps largely borrowed from non-Indo-Europeans. I cannot say to what extent Meillet's findings have become outdated due to more recent research. If these findings hold true, then they would be further support for the idea of a borrowing of e.g. ideas of metempsychosis from India by certain Greeks. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue May 7 19:58:54 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 20:58:54 +0100 Subject: Forwarded message from sanskrit-digest@cs.utah.edu Message-ID: <161227024344.23782.2041133956050338041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I am forwarding an information request about accents in Sanskrit. I have already suggested 'A Vedic Sanskrit Grammar' by Mcdonell. That is probably about one century old so hopefully the paNDitas will have more up to date references. Many thanks in advance & bye, Girish Beeharry ------------------------------ From: "Galina A. Badioulina" Date: Tue, 7 May 96 16:45:40 +0400 Subject: Sanskrit accentuation? Greetings! I'm a student at the Oriental Department of Saint-Petersburg University, Russia, and I'm trying to study Sanskrit on my own. I have a question regarding the rules of accentuation in Sanskrit: one of the only two textbooks available to me states that accents should always be placed according to Latin accentuation, but the second book declares that such situation takes place only in a certain amount of cases because much oftener the "right" accentuation is known, and the accent can fall, for example, on the last syllable. So, which is the right way? And, besides, could anyone recommend me a textbook which is considered an authority on the subject, please? Thanks in advance. Galina Badioulina gab at vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg, Russia From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue May 7 20:30:02 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 21:30:02 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024348.23782.11021180686346437356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I have sent a rather detailed private note to Lars Fosse about Newton & Leibnitz; unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of it. I was trying to make the point that they discovered two rather different approaches to two different kinds of problems. Newton asked himself the question:' Knowing how a particle moves now, in terms of its speed and acceleration, how to predict how it evolves in the future (or how was it in the past)?'; this is differential calculus in a nutshell! Leibnitz said: 'Of all the possible routes a particle can take, how should I choos the one in which it spends less time for going from one fixed point to another (say)'; this is variational calculus highly simplified. All this is usually bundled together as infinitesimal calculus. On Tue, 7 May 1996, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Lars Martin Fosse writes re Leibnitz-Newton: > > >According to my encyclopedia, the two discovered infinitesimal calculations > >independently of each other. If more recent theories say otherwise, I would > >like to know about them. > > Probably the issue as to whether there was communication between the two is > not very relevant to this list. What is relevant is that they were both > highly versed in very closely related systems of mathematical and > scientific knowledge. In other words they are in no way valid as examples > of totally independent simultaneous invention of knowledge. > Given the above, I disagree with your two last sentences. > If we had only the information that Newton in England and Leibnitz in > Europe both invented calculus in the seventeenth century, we might infer > the existence of influences between British and Continental cultures at > that time and we would be right to do so; for the invention of calculus was > a development from and on the basis of the pre-existing mathematical > knowledge which was largely a common heritage. > We might infer many things and most of our inferences would be invalid. Newton was the student of Barrow, here, and that influenced him to go into the type of problems I mentioned above whereas Leibnitz was more 'philosophical' and sought questions about 'le meilleur des mondes' (as Voltaire put it in his satirical portrayal of Leibnitz as Maitre Pangloss in 'Candide'). Your statement above is too general. Both really INVENTED quite new stuff!! The mathematical knowledge was not that 'common' as Newton was at one of the best places to be for mathematics and Leibnitz was not (which gives an indication of his towering mathematical abilities). Circulation of ideas took a lot of time; they had no preprints, no WWW, not even email! :-) I wish to apologize for the lack of Indological content of the above. bye, Girish Beeharry From biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Wed May 8 03:01:06 1996 From: biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 23:01:06 -0400 Subject: Two questions/requests Message-ID: <161227024364.23782.6138026699471232217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For # 1 the Samanna phala Sutta in the Diigha Nikaaya 2.ff has a nice list of different groups from the Buddhist point of view, some more easily identifiable, such as the Aajiivika Makkhali Gosaalo and the materialist Ajita Kezakambalin, and others less so. All are refuted of course, though not necessarily presented as heretical. Sincerely, Loriliai Biernacki University of Pennsylvania According to aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca: > > 1. There are general references to the heretics ( ;Srama.nas, > Aajiivakas, Paa.sa.n.das) in some *early* Brahmanical texts (by which I > mean here the Brahmanical texts commonly assigned to the period before the > beginning of the Christian era), but specific references to individual > groups among the heretics, as far as I could so far find out, are not many > (e.g. Kau.tilya 3.20.16 refers to ;Saakya and Aajiivaka). > (I cannot, for example, recall a single reference to Bauddhas or > Jainas or to things distinctively associated with the Bauddhas or Jainas > in Kaalidaasa's works. A word like caitya does not count as evidence in my > view. ) > There are many ways in which one can interpret this specific > absence. What I would like to do at first, however, is to collect these > early references, especially the ones that refer to groups or divisions > among the heretics. I would appreciate it if you would draw my attention to > the relevant sources or discussions you might have come across. > I am checking Vishvabandhu's VPAK and Kane's History of > Dharma-;saastra. > > ashok aklujkar > Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, > Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 > > From ralphbunker at msn.com Tue May 7 23:59:30 1996 From: ralphbunker at msn.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Tue, 07 May 96 23:59:30 +0000 Subject: Appeal font users, please ... Message-ID: <161227024378.23782.9872610002139280567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is your private e-mail address? Make sure that all autoformatting is turned off. Under Tools/Options menu choose the AutoFormat tab and turn off smart quotes etc. Also, I have never gotten the character number 160 to appear in MS Word although it does show up in Write. Good luck. Sometimes I think that MS Word has too many features for its own good. I have been working on a program that allows you to type Devanagari characters by typing there transliteration. The current version (in progress) support 1100 Devanagari characters (spread across 5 fonts). In particular there are more than 125 short 'i' characters, one for each width of possible consonent/conjunct consonents. The goal of this project is to have all vowel connect where they should and not be obscured by any other characters. Most people don't seem to be interested in beautiful Devanagari though. --ralph From lusthaus at macalstr.edu Wed May 8 07:23:21 1996 From: lusthaus at macalstr.edu (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 01:23:21 -0600 Subject: Mantras in Vedic rituals Message-ID: <161227024366.23782.8374206120742524037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone could recommend some good >references on the use of mantras in Vedic ritual, or on the use of music in >early Indian rituals. > >John Powers Hi, John. Some good introductory material on Vedic rituals and music can be found in: Sukumari Bhattacharji. _Literature in the Vedic Age_, 2 vols., Calcutta: K P Bagchi & Co., 1984, 1986. Lewis Rowell. _Music and Musical Thought in Early India_, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1992 A more provocative and difficult work, but exceptionally insightful on the role of music and a "sound model" undergirding Vedic thinking, is Antonio DeNicolas, _Meditations Through the Rg Veda_, NY: Samuel Weiser, (1977?). It doesn't discuss mantras per se, but gives an account of the sort of thinking about VaaK, etc., that would lead to the conception of mantra. If your student is not intimidated by mathematics and knows something about music theory, another intriguing speculative work is Ernest McClain. _The Myth of Invariance: From the Rg Veda to Plato_, NY: Nicolas-Hays, (1977?). Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed May 8 12:30:05 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 08:30:05 -0400 Subject: Early Buddhist rejection of the Vedas Message-ID: <161227024380.23782.8346379685262046007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The clearest evidence from the early Buddhist texts for the rejection of the Vedas, not just of the caste of the Brahmans or their sacrifices, is found in the TevijjaSutta of the Diighanikaaya among other sources. It specifically refers not only to the three Vedas, but to a number of specific Vedas and their Shaakhaas: Addhariya, Tittiriya, Chandoka, Bahvarijjha. These are brought up in the context of the Brahmans belonging to these Vedic schools teaching paths "into a state of union with Brahmaa" (brahmasahabyataaya maggam pa~n~naapenti), which is a reference to the Upanizad-like teachings of these different branches. The specific Rizis mentioned are ATThaka, Vaamaka, Vaamadeva, Vessaamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhaaradvaaja, VaaseTTha, Kassapa, and Bhagu. These Brahmans and their Rizis are then ridiculed as claiming to show a path to the union with Brahmaa which none of them have ever seen: "Verily, VaaseTTha, that Braahmans versed inthe Three Vedas should be able to show the way to a state of union with that which they do not know, neither have seen - such a condition of things has no existence. Just, VaaseTTha, as when a string of blind men are clinging one to the other, neither can the foremost see, nor can the middle one see, nor can the hindmost see - just even so, methinks, VaaseTTha, is the talk of the Braahmans versed in the Three Vedas but blind talk: the first sees not, the middle one sees not, nor can the latest see. The talk then of these Braahmans versed in the Three Vedas turns out to be ridiculous, mere words, a vain and empty thing." (Rhys Davids, Buddhist Suttas, p. 173). "And you further say that even the Rizis of old, whose words they hold in such deep respect, did not pretend to know, or to have seen where, or whence, or whither Brahmaa is." (Ibid, 178). The positive significance of expressions like Vedagu and Vedantagu in early Nikaaya texts is more like the positive significance of a redefined term like BraahmaNa = baahitapaapadhammo, not in reference to any presumed Vedic texts or traditions for which either the Buddha himself or his followers had great respect, not unlike the redefinition of a good sacrifice (ya~n~na) as daana in the Nikaayas. In all likelihood the terms Vedagu and Vedaantagu indicate the early Buddhist appropriation of current terms, with redefined content. The Tevijja Sutta interestingly has an assertion of the Three Siilas (ibid, p. 188). Rhys Davids suggests in his note: "These three Siilas may perhaps have been inserted in the Sutta as a kind of counterpoise to the Three Vedas." Madhav Deshpande From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed May 8 08:31:36 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 09:31:36 +0100 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024368.23782.18179862086511174599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >The point is that neither was operating in a vacuum and they both knew >what had been done in previous generation. Tanget calculation, >area calculation and the relation between them was known earlier, >for example to Barrow. That's why I mentioned he was a student of Barrow. I agree they were not operating in a vacuum but that does not explain everything. They did the leap from algebra to calculus by themselves. >various translations done, this too might be ignored with ``there >is no direct evidence of borrowing''. If we go into pure speculation then I leave it here and the list can go on with the usual Indological material. Bye, Girish Beeharry From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed May 8 08:41:22 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 09:41:22 +0100 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024370.23782.7316367129609008550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >What is however of interest to indology is that some results which we >would associate with the infinitesimal calculus were known in India around >1550 at least. The best known case is probably the so-called Gregory's >series, which is more and more often called nowadays the Madhava-Gregory >series. There was an article in the Indian Academy of Science's journal (Current Science) about the contribution of Kerela mathematicians some time back. If any member wishes to get the exact reference, please mail me privately. Bye, Girish Beeharry >?From Mojo at bbs.grn.es 8 1996 May MET+1 11:03:28 Date: 8 May 1996 11:03:28 MET+1 From: Mojo at bbs.grn.es Subject: hindi + sanskrit hi could someone tell me please the relation between Hindi and Sanskrit? and also, the punjabi font (available in ftp.funet.fi/pub/culture/indian) what language(s) use that? please help me, i'm a beginner. thanks -mojo From John.Powers at anu.edu.au Wed May 8 00:10:26 1996 From: John.Powers at anu.edu.au (John.Powers at anu.edu.au) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 10:10:26 +1000 Subject: Mantras in Vedic rituals Message-ID: <161227024358.23782.18058639540056240633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of my students is doing a research project on Vedic mantras and the use of music in early Indian ritual. This is outside of my area of expertise, and I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone could recommend some good references on the use of mantras in Vedic ritual, or on the use of music in early Indian rituals. John Powers Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University Canberra, ACT 0200 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed May 8 10:42:48 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 10:42:48 +0000 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024372.23782.17520539055897516527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 7 May 1996 LGoehler at aol.com wrote: [...] > But there is one more point that Saussure introduced > into Western philosophy of language, that he could easily have borrowed in > India: the synchronic view of language (abstraction from the historical > *diacronic* development of language which is implied e.g.in theories as that > of zabdanityatA) that made structural approaches to language possible. Both > concepts formed cornerstones of the early theories of the > linguistic-turn-philosophers and exert influence up to the present. - I > wonder whether there is literature on the bhAratamUlatva of Saussure's > theories? De Saussure's PhD thesis topic was the genitive absolute in Sanskrit, so there is no question that he was well acquainted with the language. The degree of his acquaintance with the grammatical schools, and Bhartrhari in particular, is less clear. I am also unaware that the Sanskrit grammarians ever made a synchronic/diachronic distinction beyond the primitive "bhasayam" and "chandasi" of Panini. The doctrine of sabdanityata and of the levels of language etc. have to do not with depth in time, but with "depth in consciousness" or perhaps "depth in linguistic abstraction", if I can use those terms. -- Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed May 8 10:48:42 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 10:48:42 +0000 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024374.23782.18287432566793181442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 7 May 1996, Narayan S. Raja wrote: > This could change if the Americans threaten to > bomb us with beefburgers, thereby sullying our > ritual purity. Perhaps we British could exercise our "special relationship" (prakrstasambandha) with the USA, and sell them _British_ beefburgers as ammunition, thus sullying everyone at every level, both metaphorical and medical, while simultaneously writing off our debt for the Trident missile system. 8-) -- Dominik Wujastyk From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 8 12:03:15 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 13:03:15 +0100 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024376.23782.16527071820835816880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Lars Goehler for a most interesting contribution. I was aware of the fact that Paninian grammar had decisive influence on Western linguistics in the last century, but I did not realize that this had implications for the philosophy of language. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed May 8 20:33:44 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 13:33:44 -0700 Subject: Q: Epigraphia Indica Message-ID: <161227024395.23782.10937365093003827459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I have been able to figure it out, the (relatively) recent publication history of EI has been as follows: vol. 40 was only published through fascicle 5 (April 1974, actually published 1986) vol. 41, 1975-76 was published in 1989, in a single volume (no fascicles) vol. 42, 1977-78 was published in 1992, also in a single volume. -Rich Salomon On Wed, 8 May 1996, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > > Hello members of the Indology list, > > lastly I have seen a short notice that says the EPIGRAPHIA INDICA ceased. Is > this true? I have unfinished fascicles lying here (without titlepage, index > and so on). > > \bye > Peter Wyzlic > > > > > From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed May 8 20:47:47 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 13:47:47 -0700 Subject: Guru-paramparaa Message-ID: <161227024397.23782.10723939942631598863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, Thanks for the reference to the Guruparamparacarita by Ramakrsnasomayajin (Bombay: Sri Venkatesvara Press, 1907-08). Actually, I was looking for Jagad-guru-ratna-maalaa... a few months ago. I got to see a copy that book in Madras. The title you have specified also seems interesting. I hope to be able to look at it one of these days. -- ashok ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed May 8 18:39:17 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 14:39:17 -0400 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024389.23782.5260034409671656787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik and Lars, It is indeed spreading. I have been having similar symptoms. The mad cows are everywhere. Madhav On Wed, 8 May 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > >Perhaps we British could exercise our "special relationship" > >(prakrstasambandha) with the USA, and sell them _British_ beefburgers as > >ammunition, thus sullying everyone at every level, both metaphorical and > >medical, while simultaneously writing off our debt for the Trident missile > >system. 8-) > > > >-- > >Dominik Wujastyk > > Dominik, you Brits already did. The last few weeks there has been clear and > irrefutable evidence that my brain is turning into a sponge, which is what > the mad cow disease does to you. Let these last hiccups from a spongiform > brain be a warning to you all. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Research Fellow > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > From KERNLIB at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Wed May 8 14:49:01 1996 From: KERNLIB at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (KERNLIB at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 15:49:01 +0100 Subject: Editorial office of IIJ Message-ID: <161227024382.23782.13362948173037489509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correspondence for IIJ is to be directed to: Prof. H.W. Bodewitz Kern Institute P.O.B. 9515 2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands Yours, Hanna 't Hart Librarian e-mail: Kernlib at Rullet.LeidenUniv.NL From athr at loc.gov Wed May 8 19:58:43 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 15:58:43 -0400 Subject: Online resources on Mughal mss Message-ID: <161227024391.23782.10675760684919398260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron is planning to start a computer database on Mughal manuscripts and would like to be sure no one else is already doing so. Is anyone aware of such a thing? Are there any on Persian manuscripts in general? Please feel free to forward to lists on Islamic studies lists, South Asian art, etc. Thanks, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 8 14:58:46 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 15:58:46 +0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024384.23782.16229362345401735826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Perhaps we British could exercise our "special relationship" >(prakrstasambandha) with the USA, and sell them _British_ beefburgers as >ammunition, thus sullying everyone at every level, both metaphorical and >medical, while simultaneously writing off our debt for the Trident missile >system. 8-) > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk Dominik, you Brits already did. The last few weeks there has been clear and irrefutable evidence that my brain is turning into a sponge, which is what the mad cow disease does to you. Let these last hiccups from a spongiform brain be a warning to you all. Best regards, Lars Martin Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From athr at loc.gov Wed May 8 20:19:52 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 16:19:52 -0400 Subject: Guruparamparacarita Message-ID: <161227024393.23782.15407503379587657711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was someone several months ago seeking a Guruparamparacarita? If so, Library of Congress has a book of this title by Ramakrsnasomayajin (Bombay: Sri Venkatesvara Press, 1907-08). Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From c.j.oort at pi.net Wed May 8 18:23:15 1996 From: c.j.oort at pi.net (c.j.oort at pi.net) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 20:23:15 +0200 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024386.23782.9539599118785521019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Replies to msg 06 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (c.j.oort at pi.net) > > cjon> From: c.j.oort at pi.net (C.J. Oort) > cjon> Subject: Re: re Kalanos the gymnosophist > >>Indian colleagues tend to believe that F.R. Leavis and >> I.A. >>Richards are the alpha and omega of literary criticism, while European >>colleagues disregard them altogether. > > cjon> Dear Mr Zydenbos, > cjon> I do'nt want to be a nit-picker, but because you mentioned > cjon> F.R.Leavis I > cjon> would like to comment about my experience of taking a > cjon> degree in English ( > cjon> I'am a native speaker , however an American) at Leiden > cjon> University in the > cjon> '60's, Leavis was the cat's pyjamas as far as English > cjon> literary theory was > cjon> concerned, eventhough he wrote a very, sometimes > cjon> grammatically, obscure > cjon> English. Perhaps you are too young to know the impact > cjon> Leavis had on a > cjon> generation of "English " European scholars. This message > cjon> only to underline > cjon> that we must tread softly with our statements. > >I fear that your comment is not relevant. I did not refer to students in Europe >who study ENGLISH and ENGLISH LITERARY THEORY, like you did -- in that >particular context, it is perfectly understandable that Leavis has a role to >play. European students of SANSKRIT may read about Dandin and Abhinavagupta, >but to my knowledge nobody else does. And I wish to stress here that this has >absolutely nothing to do with Abhinavagupta's qualities as a literary thinker, >which I find noteworthy. > >I was thinking of people on mainland Europe who thought about literature in >general, who developed theories of literature and who had absolutely no reason >to be Anglocentric in the way our Indian colleagues tend to be (due not to any >deliberation of their own, but due to historical linguistic reasons, which is >my point). I did an exam in general literary theory at Utrecht in the mid '70s, >and in class there was just a passing mention that Leavis existed. During my >two years in Germany, nobody ever mentioned Leavis: he is just as much out of >the picture as Abhinavagupta is, and basically for the same reason. > >I'm not aware that Leavis played any major role in thinking about literature >in, say, Germany or Russia, nor in the Netherlands -- among those who did not >study English as their main subject! This too is part of my point, which you >apparently missed. Ask a Dutch scholar of Dutch literature what he thinks about >Leavis or Richards; and then ask a native Kannada-speaking scholar of Kannada >literature the same question. The glaring difference of response which you will >see is not a debatable issue. > >Hence I do believe that my statement holds good. And, as I stated in an earlier >message, many more parallel statements can be made concerning India, which are >equally valid. In the quick transmission of ideas, in the development of >schools of thought, and also in the initial predisposition of persons who are >confronted with a new idea, the role of language can hardly be underestimated. > >Robert Zydenbos >Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Dear Mr. Zydenbos, I was surprised to read that my mild remarks resulted in a deluge of criticism. I am sure that the Russians could hardly have heard or even read anything written by Leavis - Germans, perhaps, because Leavis did read German literary critics -Dr. Schuecking "The Sociology of Literary Taste". Where did this all begin? Kalanos the gymnosophist to F.R. Leavis. May I end this digression from "true" Indology with a qoute form Leavis's "The Common Pursuit". In his preface he comments on T.S. Eliot's book "The Function of Criticism"; "The common pursuit of true judgement":that is how the critic should see his business, and what it should be for him. His perceptions and judgments are his, or they are nothing; but, whether or not he has consciously addressed himself to co-operative labour, they are inevitably collaborative. Collaboration may take the form of disagreement, and one is grateful to the critic whom one has found worth disagreeing with". I, too, appreciate Abhinavagupta and Leavis is still being taught at, at least, two universities in the Netherlands. Nogmaals, hartelijke groeten, Marianne Oort C.J. Oort tel: 31-(0)70-5116960 fax: 31-(0)70-5140832 >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 08 1996 May +0100 20:31:00 Date: 08 May 1996 20:31:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Q: Epigraphia Indica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello members of the Indology list, lastly I have seen a short notice that says the EPIGRAPHIA INDICA ceased. Is this true? I have unfinished fascicles lying here (without titlepage, index and so on). \bye Peter Wyzlic >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 08 1996 May +0100 20:28:00 Date: 08 May 1996 20:28:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Gymnosophists etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello l.m.fosse, In your message: <199605061456.QAA29535 at hedda.uio.no> date: <08 May 96> You wrote on "Gymnosophists etc.": >[...](Nietsche was >an acquaintance of Andreas, the Iranianist, but my reading of "Also sprach >Zarathushtra" (admittedly many years ago) did not impress on me the feeling >that Nietsche was much influenced the real "Zarathushtrian" thing). So: >which ideas did N. borrow from India? Nietzsche knew C.F. Andreas' later wife Lou Salome *before* she married Andreas. There was no direct, personal aquaintance with the Iranist. Some other personal connections may be mentioned here: Paul Deussen and Nietzsche were at the same time pupils in Schulpforta. They knew each other well and exchanged letters. Nietzsche claimed that he converted Deussen to Schopenhauer. In his student days in Leipzig (till 1869) Ernst Windisch was one of Nietzsche's fellow students. Of course: in the field of Classical Philology. Windisch introduced Nietzsche to Hermann Brockhaus in whose home he met Richard Wagner for the first time (about 1868). By the way: the young Jacob Wackernagel learnt Greek with Nietzsche (Nietzsche's teaching assignment at the university of Basle comprised the teaching of Greek to the higher classes at the Paedagogium in Basle). But in most cases Nietzsche's knowledge at least of the Indian tests he alludes to was not well sounded. I am remembering an article of Annemarie Etter where she proved that Nietzsche's Manu citations were taken from the rather fanciful French "translation" of Louis Jacolliot (who created a Krishna-"Khristna" (sic!) relationship). \bye Peter Wyzlic >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 08 1996 May +0100 20:14:00 Date: 08 May 1996 20:14:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Forwarded message: Sanskrit in Chinese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de In your message: <199605071343.PAA11354 at hedda.uio.no> date: <08 May 96> You wrote on "Forwarded message: Sanskrit in Chinese": >I am forwarding the following message from another list: > >Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:18:50 CDT >From: KozonoJ at gunet.georgetown.edu (Joseph Kozono) >Subject: Sanskrit in Chinese? > >I am wondering if anyone knows if classical Hindu texts such as the >Rig Vedas, the Upanishas, and the Baghavadgita have been rendered >into Ancient or even Modern Chinese? Are there also native Chinese >commenaries on these texts? Finally, if there are translations or >commentaries, what are they called in Chinese and where can one get >hold of them? At least two non Buddhist Hindu works found their way into the Chinese Buddhist canon: 1. Taisho shinshu daizokyo, no. 2138: Sheng zong shi ju yi lun (something like: *Da"sapadaartha"saastra). This is a Vai"se.sika work, it has been translated into English by Hakuju Ui (and Frederick William Thomas), London 1917. (I have the exact references not at hand.) The famous Xuanzang made the Chinese translation (this sets the terminus ad quem). 2. Taisho, no. 2137: Jin qi shi lun (something like *Suvar.nasaptati"saastra). This is a translation of II"svarak.r.s.na's (sorry if this transliteration looks odd) Saa.mkhyakaarika together with a prose commentary (unidentified so far I know). I am only aware of Junjiro Takakusu's French translation and study: "La Saa.mkhyakaarikaa etudiee a la lumiere de sa version chinoise", in: BEFEO 4 (1904) (I have left out the accented characters, because some mail transfer agents do not know MIME). Its Chinese translator was Paramaartha (6th century) (this sets the terminus ad quem, too). Other works of non Buddhist origin are certainly to be found in citations, but to fetch them all will be a superhuman task, I think. \bye Peter Wyzlic From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Thu May 9 05:00:04 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Wed, 08 May 96 23:00:04 -0600 Subject: Re(2): Appeal font users, please ... Message-ID: <161227024404.23782.2650995682885880791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members: The problem mentioned regarding fonts is not limited to Sanskrit fonts, nor is it the same for different systems and printers. The basis of the confusion is that printers (and operting systems) reserve some character positions for control codes. Since most fonts traditionally do not use characters above 128, some printers assume that they can use them, and do. Many printers use the code 160, for example. The more intelligent word processors, like MS Word, know that the printer cannot use a paricaular character position and thus show you what will print, a blank space. On the other hand, more simple ones, like Write, will show characters even if they will print as a blank space. Some font packages, like Adobe, will actually allow you to use the character position and change it to another position when it is sent to the printer. Claude Setzer claude_setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu May 9 02:19:11 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 01:19:11 -0100 Subject: Reincarnation, a New Age fad? (was: Gymnosophists) Message-ID: <161227024408.23782.11668709351806471909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 07 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) yrru> in this yrru> deconstructed world individuals can absorb and infuse yrru> religious teaching yrru> from various sources into their philosophy of life, yrru> without a rupture. We need not even bring in deconstruction. Things seem to have started with Kalanos, haven't they? yrru> There are serious scholars, historical and contemporary, yrru> who have yrru> internalized the teachings that they study in an academic yrru> setting. [...] yrru> I also find it odd that many yrru> scholars at traditional Western academic institutions, who yrru> do have personal yrru> beliefs centered in or associated with Eastern religions, yrru> often feel yrru> compelled to hide that fact, and not make it known to yrru> their Asian Studies yrru> colleagues, primarily because they are afraid of yrru> ridicule. [...] yrru> Why is it that there are so many scholars who do not come yrru> out of the yrru> spiritual closet? Why is it also that many people who yrru> study Indology, yrru> etc., look at religion under a microscope and often yrru> disparage those who see yrru> a broader application of the ideas in their lives? I am reminded of the late Prof. Jan Gonda. If a student showed too great a proclivity towards what Yvette Rosser describes here, he would comment that that person was "verloren voor de wetenschap" ("lost to scholarship"). But I believe it is fair to note that there are good reasons for the kind of skepticism which an important scholar like Gonda (and so many others) expressed. Even a highly subtle thinker like C.G. Jung, whose admiration and sympathy for the East are well known, has explicitly expressed his skepticism in more than one of his writings. I believe there are two categories of reasons for being skeptical. One is the Jungian type of reason: Westerners generally are exposed to (for instance) Indian thought at a later age, long after their formative childhood years, and the sa.mskaaras (we are among Indologists, so I think I can use this term here) which are already there are so well entrenched that there is a likelihood that the new ideas are tragically misunderstood and may actually cause more harm than good to the individual. (Cf. what he has to say about yoga and Indian meditative techniques.) He does not belittle Asian religious thought at all; quite the contrary. He believed that practically every Westerner is incapable of grasping and integrating such thought in a sufficiently profound and wholesome manner. I feel he has a point, when I consider the kind of flimsy, superficial syncretism that characterizes much of the New Age scene: I find it distressing that so many people take _The Tao of Physics_ so seriously. Gonda's kind of skepticism seems the result of a type of understanding of what Indology should be: solid historical philology. Philology _is_ important; is essential, in fact. But if we stop there, we achieve little more than a kind of deconstruction: the history of the name 'Vishnu' is interesting, but does not really tell us what Vishnu is, or why certain people feel Vishnu is the supreme lord. And just like deconstructionalism, such an attitude is in a way highly destructive and leads to general cynicism. What we need is an attitude in the West that treats varieties of Indian religious thought as genuine theological alternatives to what we traditionally have had in the West. (This nice phrasing is not by me, but by an American colleague I met in Mysore years ago.) But this kind of thinking does need a solid philological footing -- otherwise we don't know what we are talking about. When that level of seriousness is reached, but _only_ then (as I think some have reached it), then a personal commitment to such a religious faith, also on the part of a Western-born scholar, should be acceptable. Are theology departments not full of committed Christians, some of them also of Asian descent? Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Wed May 8 21:35:15 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 09:35:15 +1200 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024399.23782.11419045071659968107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >I am also unaware that the Sanskrit grammarians ever made a >synchronic/diachronic distinction beyond the primitive "bhasayam" and It is certain that Sanskrit grammarians never made a distinction between synchronic and diachronic aspects of language change. It was becasuse they all, including Panini, considered Sanskrit to be eternal and unchanging. According to R.E.Asher, it was this assumption that facilated some of their breakthroughs which we are still able to learn from today. - & >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 08 1996 May +0100 20:51:00 Date: 08 May 1996 20:51:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Appeal font users, please ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello ralphbunker, In your message: date: <08 May 96> You wrote on "RE: Appeal font users, please ...": >... support 1100 Devanagari characters (spread across 5 fonts).... You have to rewrite the teaching books, it seems. :-) >Most people don't seem to be interested in beautiful Devanagari >though. --ralph Some people don't seem to use M$-Word though. \bye Peter Wyzlic From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 9 13:46:18 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 09:46:18 -0400 Subject: Summer language programs in India Message-ID: <161227024419.23782.780962305958019467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Ruth Schmidt's question, I would like to inform that U of Michigan is definitely teaching a 7 week intensive Hindi-Urdu summer course this year. Anyone still interested may contact the Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, U of Michigan. The email address to contact our administrator Les Adler is: leadler at umich.edu. The instructor for Hindi-Urdu will be Dr. Tahsin Siddiqi. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 9 May 1996, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > Dear Indology members: > > I am looking for a summer language program in India, Pakistan or elsewhere > for a talented student in my Urdu course who is a Norwegian citizen. I am > already aware of the compilation of language programs made by Frances > Pritchett and have contacted some of those programs individually. > > The problem faced by my student is that as a Norwegian she is not eligible > to participate in many U.S.-funded summer programs. So she has to make a > priority of finding out what is available, and after that she can decide > what language she would like to study. Her first preference would be to > continue her study of Urdu, but she would be willing to take up the study > of some other major language of the subcontinent in order to get the > benefit of participating in an immersion program. > > I would appreciate any information the members of the list can provide! > > With best wishes, > > Ruth Schmidt > Dept of East European and Oriental Studies > University of Oslo > P.O. Box 1030 Blindern > N-0315 Oslo, Norway > Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 > Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 > Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 9 13:55:44 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 09:55:44 -0400 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024420.23782.8958979888492786864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An important sourcebook for Indian contribution to mathematics, including the contribution of Kerala mathematicians is the 1990 book "The Crest of the Peacock, Non-European Roots of Mathematics" by George Gheverghese Joseph, Penguin Books. The book deals with a number of non-western traditions including the Incas, Maya, Egypt, Babylonia, China, India, and the Arab world. As an introductory book it is especially readable even to those who have relatively little background in the high-end branches of modern mathematics. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 9 May 1996, Vidyasagar Govind wrote: > > > > >There was an article in the Indian Academy of Science's journal (Current > >Science) about the contribution of Kerela mathematicians some time back. If any > >member wishes to get the exact reference, please mail me privately. > > > >Bye, > > > >Girish Beeharry > > Would appreciate if you could give me details of this reference. > Thanks a lot,and best regards. > Vidya > Wish you a happy memorable day! > vidya at singnet.com.sg > > > From Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu May 9 09:56:00 1996 From: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 09:56:00 +0000 Subject: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Message-ID: <161227024410.23782.11978315423503611308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote-- >Many people live and work in a language other than their mother tongue. >This is a pretty normal situation, and the fact that Sanskrit was not >"mother", isn't as important as understanding the other socio-linguistic >issues surrounding it, that have been so well described in Madhav >Deshpande's studies. > >Secondly, I don't think medieval Latin was particularly artifical in any >meaningful sense. In fact, one reason why it is so difficult is that it >is heavily coloured by the vernacular languages of the countries in which >it was used, and this is because it was growing closer to the vernaculars, >and being used for more secular writings. Medieval Latin was certainly a >great deal less artificial than Ciceronian Latin. > Isn't it possible to say precisely the same thing about Sanskrit language because I believe it is also heavily coloured by Indian vernaculars. For instance, we know Caland (identified in his notes on Ananda Samhita the influence of South Indian Syntax on Sanskrit) , Emenau and George Hart have made substantial comments in this regard. Although this is not my special area of study, from my reading of Sanskrit texts composed in the South I can tell how clsoe the syntax is to my mother tongue Telugu. I am not convinced that Telugu syntax is influenced by Sanskrit but I have a strong feeling that Sanskrit syntax is influenced by many South Indian languages. Pratap +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Dr. P. Kumar Department of Hindu Studies & Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X 54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 031-820-2194 Fax: 031-820-2160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu May 9 17:21:40 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 10:21:40 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Burton Stein (1926-1996) (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024424.23782.3105786450884029543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:20:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank Conlon To: H-ASIA at msu.edu Subject: H-ASIA: Burton Stein (1926-1996) H-ASIA May 9, 1996 Burton Stein (August 1, 1926 - April 26, 1996) *********************************************************************** From: Frank F. Conlon As reported on H-ASIA on April 26, Burton Stein died in London from the effects of cancer against which he had been struggling for several months. Burt, who was my graduate advisor at the University of Minnesota, had been residing in London with his wife, the writer Dorothy Stein since 1983. When I first met Burt in 1960, he had been teaching for three years at the University of Minnesota. He talked very little in those days about his own education, and it was only later that I learned a bit of his background. Born and raised in Chicago, he served in World War II, returning on the G. I. Bill to commence study at the old Navy Pier facility that was then the University of Illinois' Chicago campus. However Burt never completed a baccalaureate degree. He was admitted to the University of Chicago directly in to a Master of Arts program, completing the M.A. in 1954, studying with Robert Crane. Burt then completed a Ph.D thesis in 1957 on the economic functions of the famous Tirupati temple in medieval South India. I know that he had initially entertained a more conventional study of the economic functions of the East India Company in early modern Madras, but research on Ceylon had brought into his sights the complexities and institutions of pre-modern agrarian economies. Burt taught at the University of Minnesota from 1957 to 1965 and at the University of Hawaii from 1966 to 1983. He held visiting professorships at the University of California, Berkeley, University of Washington, University of Chicago, University of Pennsylvania, Centre for Historical Studies of Jawaharlal Nehru University. Upon shifting to London, where he lived within a ten minute walk of the India Office Library, he became a Professorial Research Associate of the University of London School of Oriental and African Studies and a regular participant in a wide range of seminars and other South Asian scholarly activities. He did not stop teaching--a glance at prefaces and acknowledgments of many books by many authors will find recognition of Burt's incisive comment. His seminar at Minneapolis was occasion for asking fresh questions and proposing new conceptual frames. I had never had a professor like Burt. He treated students as colleagues with a dry, sometimes cynical wit. He did not supply answers. If one were lucky, he might supply a question. Two decades before I had ever heard the term "ethnohistory", and when "subaltern" made one think of Kipling rather than Gramsci, Burt was pushing us to look at India in its own terms. And I think we took it for granted that that was just what happened in seminars. Burt Stein's scholarly contributions were primarily concerned with pre-modern and colonial South India. I recall him in the early '60's poring over microfilms of inscription collections as he was evolving his hypothesis concerning the nature of the "state" in South India. Burt doubted the reality of the Chola "empire" as a bureaucratic structure, and proposed a radically different conception, borrowed from Aidan Southall's studies of African society, the "segmentary state" which he applied in his first book, _Peasant, State and Society in Medieval South India_ in 1980. With retirement, Burt's pace of writing increased steadily, four more books came forth, and, just prior to his death, he completed an innovative interpretation of the history of the entire subcontinent, to be published by Blackwells. Burt his colleague at Minnesota Jan Broek first conceived of a historical atlas of South Asia, and gained the support of Mr. Charles Leslie Ames in creating a fellowship in South Asian historical cartography. The atlas project, under the guidance of Joseph Schwartzberg commenced in the mid-1960s. Burt remained active as an advisor to the project, which finally appeared as _A Historical Atlas of South Asia_ (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1978) -- a milestone in the study of the subcontinent. Burt's students and friends around the world mourn the passing so soon of a man who had taught us so much. Yet it would be characteristic of Burt to say, should he reply as he did to me on more than one occasion, "no, you all taught yourselves." Burt is survived by his wife Dorothy Stein and three children from a former marriage, Sarah, J and G. Dorothy Stein may be reached at or 37 Pearman Street, London SE1 7RB. Frank Conlon University of Washington What follows is a preliminary bibliography of the significant works of Burt Stein. On several items I have been unable to provide pagination, and I am also not certain that I have identified all publications produced in the past few years. However, what appears here may stand as a monument to Burt's intellectual depth and breadth which will bear witness to the extraordinarily fruitful and broad-ranging contributions which he made to our comprehension of the Indian past. F.F.C. ----------------------------------------------------------------- _Development Problems in Ceylon_ (New York: Institute of Pacific Relations, 1954) (mimeo) reprinted as a supplement to the _Ceylon Historical Journal nos. 3 & 4 (1954) pp. 286-330. [This was also included in Robert I. Crane, _Aspects of Economic Development in South Asia_ (New York: Institute of Pacific Relations, 1954). "Economic Functions of a Medieval South Indian Temple," _Journal of Asian Studies_ 19 (1960) pp. 163-176. "The State, the Temple, and Agricultural Development in Medieval South India, _Economic Weekly_ (Annual number) (February 4, 1961) pp. 179-187. "Indian Economic History: A Bibliographical Essay," (with Morris David Morris, _Journal of Economic History_ 21 (June, 1961) pp. 179-207. "Medieval Coromandal Trade" in _Merchants and Scholars, ed. by John Parker (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1965) pp. 49-62. "Comment on Bernard S. Cohn paper 'Regions Subjective and Objective: Their Relation to the Study of Modern Indian History' pp. 41-47 in _Regions and Regionalism in South Asian Studies: An Exploratory Study_ ed. Robert I. Crane (Durham, N.C.: Duke University Program in Comparative Studies on Southern Asia, 1967) "Brahman and Peasant in Early south Indian History", _The Adyar Library Bulletin_ "Dr. V. Raghavan Felicitation Volume" 31- 32 (1967-68) pp. 229-269. "Social Mobility and Medieval South Indian Sects", in _Social Mobility in India_ ed. by James Silverberg, _Comparative Studies in Society and History, Supplement III_ (1968) pp. 78-95. "The Integration of the South Indian Agrarian System" pp. 175-216 in _Social Structure and Land Control in India_ ed. by Robert E. Frykenberg (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1969). "Historical Ecotypes in South Asia: A Preliminary Statement", _Proceedings of the Second International Conference- Seminar of Tamil Studies, Madras_ (Madras: International Association of Tamil Research, 1968). "Early Indian Historiography: A Conspiracy Hypothesis", _Indian Economic and Social History Review_ 6 (March, 1969) pp. 41-59. "Devi Shrines and Folk Hinduism in Medieval Tamilnadu" in _Studies in the Language and Culture of South Asia_ eds. Edwin Gerow and Margery Lang (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1973). "The State and the Agrarian Order of Medieval South India: A Historiographical Critique" in _Essays on South India_ ed. B. Stein (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1975). "Privileged Landholding: The Concept Stretched to Cover the Case" pp. 67-77 in _Land Tenure and Peasant in South Asia_ ed. Robert E. Frykenberg (New Delhi: Orient Longman, 1977) "Temples in Tamilnadu, 1300-1750" _Indian Economic and Social History Review_ 14 (1977) pp. 11-45 (and "Introduction" to the volume, pp. 1-9. [reprinted as a book-see below] _South Indian Temples: An Analytical Reconsideration_ ed. B. Stein (Delhi: Vikas, 1978). "All the Kings' _Mana_: Perspectives on Kingship in Medieval South India" pp. 115-167 in _Kingship and Authority in South Asia_ ed. John F. Richards (Madison: University of Wisconsin: South Asian Studies Publications, 1978) _Peasant, State and Society in Medieval South India_ (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1980). "South India: Some General Considerations of the Region and its Early History" pp. 14-41; "Vijayanagara c. 1350-1564" pp. 102-124; "The State and the Economy: The South" pp. 203-213 and "Towns and Cities: The Far South", pp. 452-457 in _The Cambridge Economic History of India, Vol. 1 eds. Tapan Raychaudhuri and Irfan Habib (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982). "Mahanavami: Medieval and Modern Kingly Ritual in South India" pp. 67-90 in _Essays in Gupta Culture_ ed. Bardwell L. Smith (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidas, 1983). _All the Kings' Mana: Papers on Medieval South Indian History_ (Madras: New Era Publications, 1984). "The Problematical 'Kingdom of Vijayanagara' pp.1-4 and "Vijayanagar and the Transition to Patrimonial Systems" pp. 73-87 in _Vijayanagara: City and Empire: New Currents of Research_ ed. Anna Libera Dallapiccola. Vol. 1 (Stuttgart: Steiner Verlag, 1985) "Politics, Peasants and the Deconstruction of Feudalism in Medieval India" in _Feudalism and Non-European Societies_ eds T. J. Byers and Harbans Mukhia (London: Frank Cass, 1985). "Eighteenth Century India: Another View" _Studies in History_ ns 5 (1985) pp. 1-26. "Tamil Nadu" _Encyclopedia of Asian History_ ed. Ainslie Embree (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1988) vol. 4 pp. 60- 62. _Thomas Munro: The Origins of the Colonial State and His Vision of Empire_ (Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1989). _Vijayangara_ Volume I.2 of _The New Cambridge History of India_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989). "A Decade of Historical Efflorescence" _South Asia Research_ 10 (November 1990) pp. 125-138. "The Politicized Temples of southern India" in _The Sacred Centre as the Focus of Political Interest_ ed. Hans Bakker _Groningen Oriental Series 6 (Groningen: Egbert Forsten, 1992). _The Making of Agrarian Policy in India, 1770-1900_ ed. B. Stein in Oxford in India series: _Themes in Agrarian History_ (Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1992). "Introduction" (with Sanjay Subrahmanyam) to _Institutions and Economic Change in South Asia_ SOAS Studies on South Asia: Understandings and Perspectives series (Delhi: Oxford University Press, forthcoming). _A History of India_ (prelim. title) (Oxford: Blackwell, forthcoming). ======================================================================== From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu May 9 10:21:32 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 11:21:32 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024411.23782.7134552775369876058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: >With regard to Indo-European religion, I recall having seen an article by A. >Meillet in his _Linguistique historique et linguistique ge'ne'rale_ (Paris, >1948). I forgot the title of the article, but it is the very last one in the >book. Going by a study of words and names in the ancient Indo-European >languages for 'god', 'divinity' etc., he reached the conclusion that the >earliest, common Indo-European religious thought was extremely inchoate, and >that hence all the more highly developed forms of religion found among the >early Indo-Europeans had to be later local developments, perhaps largely >borrowed from non-Indo-Europeans. > >I cannot say to what extent Meillet's findings have become outdated due to more >recent research. If these findings hold true, then they would be further >support for the idea of a borrowing of e.g. ideas of metempsychosis from India >by certain Greeks. There has been extensive research on I.E. culture not only Meillet but also by Benveniste, Dumezil and a host of other scholars working in the Indo-European field. As far as transmigration is concerned, Caesar claimed that the Celts believed in transmigration, but this has not been substantiated by other independent sources. There are also some rather vague indications of such beliefs among the Germanic tribes, but hardly enough to be called evidence. In Greece, transmigration was only one of several religious doctrines, and not a very important one, but the Pythagoreans believed in it, and they are a fairly ancient sect. It is therefore possible that transmigration was an esoteric idea that followed certain groups of Indo-Europeans from a very early time and therefore pops up in a limited context in other places than India, where it became the all-conquering idea. (I personally do not believe that the ancient Indo-Europeans had no variation as far as their beliefs are concerned. Why should they all thing the same? We don't). But by all means: Greek ideas about transmigration may indeed have migrated from the East! The point is, however: If the idea also existed among the Germanic and Celtic tribes, this would, in my opinion, lend support the notion that transmigration was an inherited esoteric teaching among Indo-Europeans. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu May 9 11:16:19 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 13:16:19 +0200 Subject: Summer language programs in India Message-ID: <161227024413.23782.18004724492888581341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members: I am looking for a summer language program in India, Pakistan or elsewhere for a talented student in my Urdu course who is a Norwegian citizen. I am already aware of the compilation of language programs made by Frances Pritchett and have contacted some of those programs individually. The problem faced by my student is that as a Norwegian she is not eligible to participate in many U.S.-funded summer programs. So she has to make a priority of finding out what is available, and after that she can decide what language she would like to study. Her first preference would be to continue her study of Urdu, but she would be willing to take up the study of some other major language of the subcontinent in order to get the benefit of participating in an immersion program. I would appreciate any information the members of the list can provide! With best wishes, Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Thu May 9 03:25:05 1996 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 13:25:05 +1000 Subject: Joep Bor Message-ID: <161227024402.23782.15691316990732198973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have an email address for Joep Bor at the Rotterdam Conservatory Thanks in advance John Napier From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Thu May 9 20:40:19 1996 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 13:40:19 -0700 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024430.23782.16654636537427070120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> lusthaus at macalstr.edu wrote: > Although less obvious from > the secondary > literature, one could show that such thinkers as Ramanuja > were also deeply > influenced by Islamic thought. I am very much interested in seeing evidence supporting this claim. As far as I am aware, such a theory has not been postulated in print by any scholar. Is there any evidence that Ramanuja even knew of Islam? Note that Muslims did not penetrate the Deccan until the early part of the 14th century. Mani From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Thu May 9 11:53:51 1996 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 13:53:51 +0200 Subject: The "control-over-land"-hypothesis of hypergamy Message-ID: <161227024417.23782.14424207732439595934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, In a recent and remarkable book the author advances the hypothesis that hypergamy can be explained in relation to strategies of territorial expansions. His main idea seems to be that dominant families from a more well-established political-administrative urban elite settled in new urban centres in rural surroundings. At a certain point these families would establish their sons in the surrounding villages together with wives from the local land-owning families of lower rank, thereby obtaining control over new land. While the land-owning families in the villages thus would accept to enter into hypergamous relations with the princes (and benefit from that), the landless families would insist on isogamy in order, at least, to prevent the "even less powerful from entering their ranks." Conclusion: "... hypergamy and isogamy are two sides of the same hierarchical coin. Both are attempts to maximize one's status given the political constraints of a society where power ultimately derives from control over land." Though all this is valuable, Quigley fails to answer the more tangible questions that his hypothesis accumulate: Was / is land in fact transferred from the wife-giving family to the wife-receiving - or what else is the meaning here of "control over land"? In general, all information regarding transactions of land in connection with marriage in pre-industrial India would be very welcome. Kind regards Mikael Aktor Institute for History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu May 9 15:58:06 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 14:58:06 -0100 Subject: re Kalanos the gymnosophist Message-ID: <161227024428.23782.9168311032907160115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 07 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (lusthaus at macalstr.edu) >And again: please quote me correctly. I never wrote about a > "Sanskrit-only" >movement... Where did you get THAT idea? le> I wasn't "quoting you" re: Sanskrit-only. I had just replied le> to another le> posting on our mutual thread, [...] Sorry, but I couldn't find anyone writing about a "Sanskrit-only" movement. Maybe INDOLOGY, or the Internet, passing through Liverpool, has become infected! It's the British beef!!! le> My initial claim was that Sanskrit has, since the time of le> the Vedas, been le> an acquired, not a native tongue. le> [...] But when they went home to le> visit mom and le> talk to their sisters, they did not converse in Sanskrit. I thought it was made clear, and not only by me, that this is not relevant. May I close the topic of provincialism, cosmopolitanization, linguae francae and American being the world's lingua franca, by saying that I have been in places where no variety of English could be spoken, but where I could speak with people in Sanskrit? [re: the reviving of Sanskrit] >But of course it is a reviving. What else would you call it? le> Creating something that has never been while believing it le> has always been. I thought it was clear that Sanskrit has been for a very long time. Sorry, but you are not clear. [re: Jainism] le> The other side of this coin is that Jainas are the first to le> admit that they le> know and remember very little about their actual tradition le> prior to the le> advent of Islam in India. The old sites with their monuments le> and their le> significances remain a mystery to most present day Jains. This view is unfair. I don't know with which Jainas you have been speaking. If by "most present-day Jainas" you mean the common lay folk, then the question may be raised: how many Christians know about their actual tradition at e.g. the time of the Crusades, and do Christians therefore have the problem of recovering their past? le> Jainism survived le> Islamic persecution in large part by transforming from a le> monastic to a lay le> tradition, and much was lost in the transition. A lay tradition was there from the very beginning, otherwise there would have been no monastic tradition, due to a lack of support in the world -- which in Jainism is more important than in most other religions I know of. [re: Sanskritization] le> SO maybe that means, in your model, that Buddhism was not le> Indian enough to le> survive as a distinct tradition? No. Also, we cannot believe that e.g. Virasaivism survived _due to_ Sanskrit. le> I asked: "Do you want to reduce Sikh political actions and le> motives to mere le> language?" Well, you also asked, on May 6th: "Similarly, are Sikhs not Indians simply because they never Sanskritized the Adi Granth (and have no plans to do so, according to the latest I've heard)?" I understood this to mean that (a) Sikhs did not Sanskritize, (b) hence we can dismiss Sanskrit as a major distinctive feature of Indian intellectual history. If my understanding of that question was incorrect, I apologize. le> It's also interesting that you are willing to dismiss the le> Sants, etc., as le> something less than fully Indian. Although less obvious from le> the secondary le> literature, one could show that such thinkers as Ramanuja le> were also deeply le> influenced by Islamic thought. If this can be firmly established, it would be most interesting. But for now I am skeptical (here I remember the old claims that Madhva was influenced by Christianity). Also, the fact remains that Ramanujites are a fully integral part of Indian society and do not suffer the difficulties which the Sikhs obviously, and sadly, do suffer. > why >should there be a "Speak Sanskrit" movement at all? le> For the same reason [...] le> In other words - moha. No. Anyhow, it seems to me that matters in this thread are becoming murky. Maybe I too have been infected through the British beef and should go and recuperate. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From niccd at pcnet.ro Thu May 9 15:01:14 1996 From: niccd at pcnet.ro (niccd at pcnet.ro) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 15:01:14 +0000 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227024447.23782.6779189352667581305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear fellows, I'm interested in Kashmir Shaivism. I've read some of the works signed by Abhinavagupta, Kshemaraja, Somananda, Vasugupta in English/French. I wonder if there is someone who's also interested in this field, just to talk with. I'm also interested if there are somewhere on the Net articles/studies/books concerning Trika. ThankYou ! Best regards, Codrin From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 9 22:37:23 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 15:37:23 -0700 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024436.23782.18051837132259951830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yvette Rosser wrote: > In his message S. Vidyasankar wrote: > > >Isn't "kalanos, the gymnosophist," who went with Alexander, also supposed to > have immolated himself? > > Perhaps Vidya could provide a textual source for this reference? Sorry for the delay in responding to this question. I see that the discussion has progressed in many different lines since this posting, but for whatever it is worth, here is a reference. The Invasion of India by Alexander the Great, by J. W. M'Crindle, AMS Press, New York, 1972. This has translations from Arrian, Diodorus, Plutarch, Justin and Q. Curtius. In the introduction, the translator says that according to Strabo, Kalanos immolated himself at Pasargadai, but Diodorus puts this incident in Susa. Apparently, Kalanos and Mandanes were two of the "gymnosophists" who conversed with Alexander and his generals. According to Plutarch, when Kalanos mounted his funeral pyre, he predicted Alexander's death in Babylon. Plutarch also notices ten other gymnosophists who incited one Sabbas (Sambos in Arrian, ruler of Sindh) to revolt. Alexander captured them and said he would put to death first the one who answered his questions the worst and then the rest in order. The ten are supposed to have used their wit in repartee to save their necks, and Alexander sent them away with presents. Other references to Kalanos are found in St. Ambrose's De Bragmanibus, and in the History of Alexander by (pseudo?)-Kallisthenes. Six whole chapters in this latter work are full of Kalanos, Mandanes and the Brahmans, according to M'Crindle. Zarmanochegas, a native of Bargosa (Baruch?), immolated himself in Athens in the presence of Augustus Ceaser. Zarmanochegas is taken to represent the Sanskrit SramaNAcArya, from which follows the identification of the gymnosophists with Buddhists. The same early writers however, say that the philosophers whom Alexander met with were Brahmans. This use of the word "brAhmaNa" seems to be a general one, to denote all philosophers. Duncker in his "History of Antiquity" (pp. 422-424) notes that even in Megasthenes, the Brahmanas and Sramanas were confounded in many places, although it is clear from Megasthenes that in 300 BC, it was clear that the Brahmans had the upper hand. The description of gymnosophists as naked ascetics does not seem to lend much support for the idea that they were Buddhists. Earlier European authors seem to have identified almost every reference to SramaNas as referring to Buddhists. It is more likely that the gymnosophists were digambara jaina ascetics or maybe avAdhUtas of a more Brahminical character. Moreover, to the gymnosophists is attributed the doctrine, "We attempt to know our selves, so that we may know everything there is." This seems very non-Buddhist in character, but it might fit in with both Jaina and Brahminical conceptions of Atman and kevala-jnAna. S. Vidyasankar ps. While on the topic of Alexander and Greek references to India, have there been further developments in the Sandrocottus = Chandragupta Maurya identification? There have been some recent attempts by revisionist historians in India to suggest that Sandrocottus is not the Maurya king, but the Gupta one. Is there a response to this from more objective historians? >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 09 1996 May +0100 22:37:00 Date: 09 May 1996 22:37:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Q: Epigraphia Indica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello rsalomon, In your message: <960508133039.736K-100000 at carson.u.washington.edu> date: <09 May 96> You wrote on "Re: Q: Epigraphia Indica": >As far as I have been able to figure it out, the (relatively) recent >publication history of EI has been as follows: > > vol. 40 was only published through fascicle 5 (April 1974, > actually published 1986) > vol. 41, 1975-76 was published in 1989, in a single volume (no > fascicles) > vol. 42, 1977-78 was published in 1992, also in a single volume. > >-Rich Salomon Thank you for your answer. To be precise, the question concerns vol. 38: we have fasc. 1-7 (January 1969-July 1970) (publ. 1970-1981), the titlepage, the table of contents as well as the index are missing vol. 39: fasc. 1-7 (January 1971-January 1973) (publ. 1981-85), here also we have never got title, table of contents nor the index By the way, the last fascicle of the "Arabic and Persian Supplement" seems to be the volume "1975" (publ. 1983). I can't figure out if this is due to the negligence of our bookseller or of the publisher(s). \bye Peter Wyzlic From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri May 10 00:45:26 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 17:45:26 -0700 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024440.23782.13916229422277492477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 9 May 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > >With regard to Indo-European religion, I recall having seen an article by A. > >Meillet in his _Linguistique historique et linguistique ge'ne'rale_ (Paris, > >1948). I forgot the title of the article, but it is the very last one in the > >book. Going by a study of words and names in the ancient Indo-European > >languages for 'god', 'divinity' etc., he reached the conclusion that the > >earliest, common Indo-European religious thought was extremely inchoate, and > >that hence all the more highly developed forms of religion found among the > >early Indo-Europeans had to be later local developments, perhaps largely > >borrowed from non-Indo-Europeans. > > > >I cannot say to what extent Meillet's findings have become outdated due to more > >recent research. If these findings hold true, then they would be further > >support for the idea of a borrowing of e.g. ideas of metempsychosis from India > >by certain Greeks. > > There has been extensive research on I.E. culture not only Meillet but also > by Benveniste, Dumezil and a host of other scholars working in the > Indo-European field. As far as transmigration is concerned, Caesar claimed > that the Celts believed in transmigration, but this has not been > substantiated by other independent sources. There are also some rather > vague indications of such beliefs among the Germanic tribes, but hardly > enough to be called evidence. In Greece, transmigration was only one of > several religious doctrines, and not a very important one, but the > Pythagoreans believed in it, and they are a fairly ancient sect. It is > therefore possible that transmigration was an esoteric idea that followed > certain groups of Indo-Europeans from a very early time and therefore pops > up in a limited context in other places than India, where it became the > all-conquering idea. (I personally do not believe that the ancient > Indo-Europeans had no variation as far as their beliefs are concerned. Why > should they all thing the same? We don't). But by all means: Greek ideas > about transmigration may indeed have migrated from the East! The point is, > however: If the idea also existed among the Germanic and Celtic tribes, > this would, in my opinion, lend support the notion that transmigration was > an inherited esoteric teaching among Indo-Europeans. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Research Fellow > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > The idea that transmigration could have been an ancient Indo European esoteric tradition that later surfaced in different corners of the IE world, but became more important in India, is interesting. However, what solid evidence do we have that, even in India, it was important at an early stage, before the punar-mRtyu of the BRrhadAraNnyaka UpaniSad? Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu May 9 17:13:38 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 18:13:38 +0100 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024422.23782.9851978869448131920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Earlier I mentioned the existence of a general article on Indic mathematics which might interest people here. I thought it might be too 'non-Indological' for posting here but, now that Professor Deshpande has given a reference to a maths book, I've lost my scrupules... The reference is: Current Science (Indian Academy of Sciences), Vol. 66, No 10, 25 May 1994. Title:- 'Modification of the earlier Indian planetary theory by the Kerala astronomers (c. 1500 AD) and the implied heliocentric picture of planetary motion' Authors:- Ramasubramanian K., Srinivas M.D., Sriram M.S. Address:- Department of Theoretical Physics, University of Madras, Guindy Campus, Madras 600 025, India. The maths is very simple and anyone with a non-mathematical background can understand it. The interesting bit for people on this list might be the reference list of mathematical texts in Sanskrit. I can post that if interest is shown. Bye, Girish Beeharry From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu May 9 20:14:44 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 19:14:44 -0100 Subject: Summer language programs in India Message-ID: <161227024434.23782.15963839032457091187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 09 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) rlsu> Subject: Summer language programs in India rlsu> I am looking for a summer language program in India, rlsu> Pakistan or elsewhere rlsu> for a talented student in my Urdu course [...] rlsu> Her first rlsu> preference would be to rlsu> continue her study of Urdu, but she would be willing to rlsu> take up the study rlsu> of some other major language of the subcontinent in order rlsu> to get the rlsu> benefit of participating in an immersion program. In India, the best institution to contact would perhaps be the Central Institute of Indian Languages (CIIL), a central government institution. They have intensive courses lasting a few months in all the major languages of India, and I know of students from Canada, Sweden and other countries who have taken such courses. There are (I believe) 5 branches of the CIIL, situated either in or near to the home regions of the languages which are taught. The branch in Mysore, where courses in Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam and Tamil are given, is the main branch, hence probably the one which you would have to contact first. If my memory serves me well, the branch in Shimla was devoted entirely to Urdu. You could contact the Director, Central Institute of Indian Languages, Manasa Gangothri, Mysore - 570006. When I last enquired, they wanted to get an e-mail connection, but I do not know whether it is possible to contact them by e-mail already. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Thu May 9 23:28:14 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 19:28:14 -0400 Subject: _Int'l Journal of Hindu Studies_ subscription Message-ID: <161227024438.23782.14061807985861218890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> from World Heritage Press Special 20% Discount on forthcoming _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Dear Reader: For a limited time you have the opportunity to subscribe to the forthcoming _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ from World Heritage Press at a special 20% discount off the marked rate on 1 or 2 year subscription. To receive your special discount, just complete the below appended form and return it to us. All individual orders must be prepaid. Please note that the offer is available to your library as well. The librarian must order directly from us and must specify "Discount Order, Hindu Studies" or must use the below appended form. Discount offer good through June 30, 1996. Terms of the offer. All subscriptions, individual and institutional, must be prepaid. This offer is only available for shipment within North America and Europe. Payment is in US dollars. Special subscription discounts cannot be applied to previously paid and processed orders. Sincerely, Rejean Gauvreau For the Press P.S. Please feel free to share this information with your colleagues. ______________________________________________________________ DISCOUNT ORDER FORM: HINDU STUDIES _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ Quarterly (ISSN 1022-4556) Subscriptions to Volume 1 (1997) Institutions US$ 120.00 (reg. $150.00) Individuals US$ 60.00 (reg. $75.00) Students US$ 40.00 (reg. $50.00) Name Address City State/Prov Zip Country Institution/Affiliation [ ] Payment enclosed US$ Mail to: WORLD HERITAGE Publishers Journals Division 1270 St-Jean St-Hyacinthe, Quebec Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 Email From vidya at singnet.com.sg Thu May 9 11:51:51 1996 From: vidya at singnet.com.sg (Vidyasagar Govind) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 19:51:51 +0800 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024415.23782.12419660779308185315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >There was an article in the Indian Academy of Science's journal (Current >Science) about the contribution of Kerela mathematicians some time back. If any >member wishes to get the exact reference, please mail me privately. > >Bye, > >Girish Beeharry Would appreciate if you could give me details of this reference. Thanks a lot,and best regards. Vidya Wish you a happy memorable day! vidya at singnet.com.sg From dplukker at inter.NL.net Thu May 9 18:51:40 1996 From: dplukker at inter.NL.net (dplukker at inter.NL.net) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 20:51:40 +0200 Subject: Joep Bor Message-ID: <161227024426.23782.4190089567001507489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anybody have an email address for Joep Bor at the Rotterdam >Conservatory > >John Napier > Conservatorium, Afd. Wereldmuziek, Pieter de Hoochweg 222, 3024 BJ Rotterdam (tel. +31104767399) Regards, Dick Plukker India Institute, Amsterdam From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri May 10 02:02:45 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 22:02:45 -0400 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024446.23782.10293146348553273085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am quite confident that the doctrine of transmigration derives from Indo-European antiquity, and is inherited where it appears in IE, rather than borrowed from Indic. Besides Caesar, Diodorus also refers to a Celtic belief in transmigration, as do Posidonius and Lucian. But much more persuasive than these ethnographic observations by Classical authors are the original IE texts themselves. In Celtic [in the remarkable Book of Taliesin], there are "I have been..." sequences, reminiscent of RV Atmastutis [compare Old Welsh 'bum' with Skt. 'abhavam' (or the Vedic injunctive 'bhavam')], which strongly suggest a doctrine of transmigration. In the Poetic Edda of Old Norse explicit reference to rebirth is made in the Helgakvid.ha [43]. Thus, along with the well-known Pythagorean doctrine of transmigration, there would seem to be sufficient evidence for a doctrine of transmigration in IE that would make the claim for borrowing from Indic superfluous. Furthermore, as for the suggestion that the term "gymnosophist" refers to Jains: I do not think that the Greeks of Classical antiquity could tell the difference between Hindu, Buddhist or Jain, and in fact did call *Brahmins* "gymnosophists" [cf. Lucian]. Perhaps we should take them at their word? [about this I am not so confident: maybe Jains!]. I do agree with Enrica Garzilli, that ultimately one must go to the texts ["documents"] themselves, rather than to secondary sources, even authoritative ones. Sincerely, George Thompson From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Thu May 9 23:07:04 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 22:07:04 -0100 Subject: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Message-ID: <161227024432.23782.1179555978806499388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 09 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za) Kuaz> From: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Dr Kumar) Kuaz> Subject: Re: Native speakers of Sanskrit... Kuaz> Dominik Wujastyk wrote-- >Secondly, I don't think medieval Latin was particularly artifical in any >meaningful sense. In fact, one reason why it is so difficult is that it >is heavily coloured by the vernacular languages of the countries in which >it was used, and this is because it was growing closer to the vernaculars, >[...] Kuaz> Isn't it possible to say precisely the same thing about Kuaz> Sanskrit language Kuaz> because I believe it is also heavily coloured by Indian Kuaz> vernaculars. [...] Kuaz> I have a strong Kuaz> feeling that Sanskrit syntax is influenced by many South Kuaz> Indian languages. My hunch is that Sanskrit is very similar to later Latin in this regard. Though I haven't done any proper research in this direction, I sense that different parts of India had, for instance, different preferences in vocabulary whenever there was a choice between synonyms, and also for different verb forms and syntactical constructions. A great deal of research still needs to be done on this. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From drg4 at cornell.edu Thu May 9 22:10:57 1996 From: drg4 at cornell.edu (drg4 at cornell.edu) Date: Thu, 09 May 96 22:10:57 +0000 Subject: Joep Bor -Reply Message-ID: <161227024444.23782.16604618644883908684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 14:37:31 -0400 >From: Durga Bor >To: drg4 at cornell.edu (Daniel Richard Gold) >Subject: Joep Bor -Reply > >Dan, >Can you forward the following message. I >tried sending it myself, but it got returned >because I am not an Indology subscriber. >Thanks, >Durga > >Hi, >Joep Bor is my husband, though he's in >Rotterdam and I'm at Cornell. I don't have >his business card with me with the exact >address of Rotterdam Conservatorium, >but his home address is van >Oldenbarneveldtstraat 99-III, 1052JZ >Amsterdam, Netherlands, home >telephone, 31-20-6845893 or >31-20-6843540. He doesn't have e-mail >as of yet and is more reachable at home >in the late evening or at night. I'll send you >the conservatorium number tomorrow. >Durga Bor > ______________________________________________________________________________ Daniel Gold Department of Asian Studies Associate Professor of South Asian Religions Rockefeller Hall Cornell University (drg4 at cornell.edu) Ithaca, NY 14853 From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri May 10 11:28:57 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 07:28:57 -0400 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024451.23782.11151664694474232173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just received my own posting to Indology and in re-reading it discovered a typo: injunctive should be bhuvam. From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Fri May 10 01:43:14 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 09:43:14 +0800 Subject: The "control-over-land"-hypothesis of hypergamy Message-ID: <161227024442.23782.8571353194447421629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mikael, While not directly related to your question, part of the reason while a lot of Namboodiry Brahmins of Kerala as well as other 'non-brahmin' hindus in Kerala converted enmass to Christanity is to overcome the discrimination associated with 'land-owning'. In the case of the Namboodiry (the highest in the caste hierarchy in Kerala) the discrimination was that ONLY the eldsest male in the family is permitted to marry a Nambbodiry woman and inherit the family wealth and traditions, all the other male has to look outside the community for marrige, with their children having no rights to the family wealth. In the case of the other non-brahmin hindu communities, except for the Nayars who followed the matriarchial system of decendency, the discrimination was one of 'untouchability' as well as free movement either to own land or do business. In Christianity they found no such discrimination. Owning land is deeply rooted into the psyche of every Indian. So it is not surprising that 'control-over-land' played a major role in marriage considerations. Regards...Devadas At 02:25 PM 5/9/96 BST, you wrote: >Dear Indologists, > > >In a recent and remarkable book Caste_, Oxford, Clarendon, 1993, pp. 111-113> the author advances the >hypothesis that hypergamy can be explained in relation to strategies of >territorial expansions. His main idea seems to be that dominant families >from a more well-established political-administrative urban elite settled in (deleted) >Though all this is valuable, Quigley fails to answer the more tangible >questions that his hypothesis accumulate: Was / is land in fact transferred >from the wife-giving family to the wife-receiving - or what else is the >meaning here of "control over land"? In general, all information regarding >transactions of land in connection with marriage in pre-industrial India >would be very welcome. > > >Kind regards > > >Mikael Aktor > From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 10 11:20:06 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 12:20:06 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024449.23782.8673355283639284189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Arnold Gonzales wrote: > >The idea that transmigration could have been an ancient Indo European >esoteric tradition that later surfaced in different corners of the IE >world, but became more important in India, is interesting. However, what >solid evidence do we have that, even in India, it was important at an >early stage, before the punar-mRtyu of the BRrhadAraNnyaka UpaniSad? > As far as I remember, when transmigration is introduced in a dialogue between Yajnavalkya and another philosopher (I don't remember exactly, but possible the Chandogya), it is introduced as a kind of secret teaching. This hardly constitutes "hard proof" that transmigration was part of an esoteric Indo-European heritage, but I think the possibility should be considered. I will, however, readily admit one thing: Scholars tend to try to explain a given problem by means of the intellectual tools with which they are well acquainted. People with a love for comparative IE linguistics, like myself, would of course go looking for indications of a common heritage, whereas others, who do not have the same background, will go looking for other explanations more in tune with their own educational profiles. This is why I find this discussion so interesting. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 10 12:10:56 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 14:10:56 +0200 Subject: Summer language programs in India Message-ID: <161227024453.23782.13962289036870301228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Thanks to everyone who replied to my query about summer language programs! With best regards, Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Sat May 11 02:24:08 1996 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 19:24:08 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024454.23782.3837873342095288129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> New Message Date: May 10, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members Mikael Aktor recently asked abut land transfers and marriage in relation to Declan Quigley's _The Interpretation of Caste_, Oxford, Clarendon, 1993 " ... families would establish their sons in the surrounding villages together with wives from the local land-owning families of lower rank, thereby obtaining control over new land." As I remember, Quigley was referring specifically to Newar marriages at a certain point in history. (I don't have the book with me at present) As Devadas's remark also implied, marriage, land and hypergamous marriages do sometimes have something to do with one another in South Asia, but not always the same set of specific conditions Quigley bases his more general hypothesis on. Certainly this is the case in Kerala. Nambudri men who could not inherit family property did not formed liasons with Nayar families in order to acquire the Nayar land. The land remained in the Nayar family. (which answers one of Aktor's questions: there was no transfer of land with the marriage -- in fact it has always been debated among anthropologists whether these liasons constituted marriages.) While gifts of land with gifts of brides do occur in the ethnography of other parts of South Asia (see eg. Yalman, _Under the Bo Tree_ for a wide variety of different kinds of dowry transfers associated with differential status groups) it would seem to have more to do with the interpretation of the situation where a high-ranking boy would be living on his wife's property. If the property were deeded to the boy at the time of marriage, he would not be living on her land, at her house, which would be slur not only on him, but his family. In regions where people use Dravidian kinship categories, once the marriage is contracted, future marriages are between the two families would not indicate a status difference (ie. would be isogamous automatically). In any case, I suspect that hypergamy is far more widely practiced and under a greater variety of different situations than can be accounted for by Quigley's hypothesis. ("...the author advances the hypothesis that hypergamy can be explained in relation to strategies of territorial expansions.") Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 885-3353 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From garzilli at shore.net Sat May 11 02:38:45 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 10 May 96 22:38:45 -0400 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227024456.23782.13634924155901365586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might like to read and/or subscribe to the: *International Journal of Tantric Studies* to: ijts-list-request at shore.net subject: subscribe or http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/ you can also subscribe from our WWW pages. You can see our past issues (the 1st on the Spanda school) in our ftp server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ijts/ Enjoy the reading! Dr. Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) Managing Editor (http://www.shore.net/~india/) ************************************************************** On Fri, 10 May 1996, Codrin Nicolau wrote: > > Dear fellows, > > I'm interested in Kashmir Shaivism. I've read some of the works > signed by Abhinavagupta, Kshemaraja, Somananda, Vasugupta in > English/French. I wonder if there is someone who's also interested > in this field, just to talk with. I'm also interested if there are > somewhere on the Net articles/studies/books concerning Trika. > > ThankYou ! > > Best regards, > Codrin > > > From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Sat May 11 02:50:03 1996 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Sat, 11 May 96 11:50:03 +0900 Subject: Calculus (was Re: Gymnosophists etc.) Message-ID: <161227024458.23782.1598432039771323010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 6:34 PM 96.5.9 +0100, Girish Beeharry wrote: >Earlier I mentioned the existence of a general article on Indic mathematics >which might interest people here. I thought it might be too 'non-Indological' >for posting here but, now that Professor Deshpande has given a reference to a >maths book, I've lost my scrupules... More too non-Indological information on the Maadhava-Gregory-Leibniz series, etc.: %---------------------------- Gold, D. & D. Pingree [1991] `A Hitherto Unknown Sanskrit Work concerning M\=adhava's Derivation of the Power Series for Sine and Cosine', {\em Historia Scientiarum} 42, 49--65. Gupta, R.C. [1973] `The M\=adhava-Gregory Series' {\em The Mathematics Education} 7, 3, B, 67--70. ..... [1975] `M\=adhava's and Other Medieval Indian Values of Pi', {\em The Mathematics Education} 9, 3, B, 45--48. ..... [1976] `M\=adhava's Power Series Computaion of the Sine', {\em Ga\d{n}ita} 27, 19--24. ..... [1992] `On the Remainder Term in the M\=adhava-Leibniz's Series', {\em Ga\d{n}ita Bh\=arat\=\i} 14, 68--71. Hayashi, T., T. Kusuba, M. Yano [1990] `The Correction of the M\=adhava Series for the Circumference of a Circle', {\em Centaurus} 33, 149--174. Kususba, T. & T.Hayashi [1993] `Indo ni okeru S\=uretsu' (in Japanese, Mathematical Series in India', {\em Kagakusi Kenkyu} 185, 32--42. Marar, K.M. & C.T. Rajagopal [1944] `On the Hindu Quadrature of the Circle', {\em Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asistic Society}, NS 20, 65--82. .... [1981/82] `Power Series in Medieval Indian Trigonometry', {\em Proceedings of the South Asia Seminar} II (University of Pennsylvania), pp. 25--30. Rajagopal,C.T. [1949] `A Neglected Chapter of Hindu Mathematics', {\em Scripta Mathematica} 15, 201--209. Rajagopal, C.T. & T.V.V. Aiyar [1951] `On the Hindu Proof of Gregory's Series', {\em Scripta Mathematica} 17, 65--74. ..... [1952] `A Hindu Approximation to Pi', {\em Scripta Mathematica} 18, 25--30. Rajagopal, C.T. & M.S.Rangachari [1978] `On an Untapped Source of Medieval Keralese Mathematics', {\em Archive for History of Exact Sciences} 18, 89--102. ..... [1986] `On Medieval Kerala Mathematics', {\em Archive for the History of Exact Sciences} 35, 91--99. Sarasvati Amma, T.A. [1979] {\em Geometry in Ancient & MedievalIndia}. Delhi: Motilal. Saraswathi, T.A. [1963] `The Development of Mathematical Series in India after Bh\=askara II', {\em Bulletin of the National Institute of Science in India} 21, 320--343. Whish, C. M. [1835] `On the Hindu Quadrature of the Circle, and the infinite Series of the proportion of the circumference to the diameter exhibited in the four \'{S}\=astras, the Tantra Sangraham, YuctiBh\=ash\=a, Carana Paddhati, and Sadratnam\=ala', {\em Transactions of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland} 3, 509--523. %---------------------------- Hayashi From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Sat May 11 18:19:04 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Sat, 11 May 96 13:19:04 -0500 Subject: R: Burton Stein Message-ID: <161227024460.23782.5750948649643737030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/11/96 R: Burton Stein *************** As a non-specialist in Indology but loving to read any material especially about South India, Tamil Nadu, etc., I am always impressed by Burton Stein's insights and formulations. Especially striking is his Priest-Peasant/Brahman-Vellala alliance of the Chola times. This is attested in grama sabhas/ cittira mEzhi n^aaTTaar (in tamil) in the many available Chola age inscriptions. Before Prof. Stein, great historians like K. A. Neelakanta Sastri were mainly inerested in the ascension dates of Kings and their disappearance from inscriptions caused by death or losing power. What emerged about Chola 'empire' was the vertical nature of command almost like contemporary business corporations. Recently I read a history-from-below (Subaltern) type of work in tamil by Dr. Raj Gowtham, a Professor from Dalit background. It repeats many of Stein's ideas. Then he went on to study Vijayanagara state. How the war lords/Nayaka rule is different from the traditional Chola rule is very well explained. His book, Vijayanagara, is a masterpiece. Even though I have read many books on Vijayanaga in English and South Indian languages, nothing can begin to match his work. His work on Thomas Munro shows how Munro learnt from Nayak rule and used the knowledge to formulate British rule. I did not know anything about Munro except the following Madras joke. Thomas Monroe statue sits on top of a horse on Marina beach road. The horse looks very real (neo-classical style?) A father and his son go past the Munro & the horse. Dad tells, "Look at Thomas Monroe". The child immediately asks back "Who is sitting on top of Munro?" Evidently, the kid who is used to the symbolic nature of indian art is more captivated by the realism of the horse than Munro! May Prof. Stein's hardwork inspire more to pursue South Indian studies. For many years, this Ekalavya learnt many things from the professor's scholarship. Heartfelt condolensces to the late lamented Professor's family. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Sat May 11 19:26:16 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Sat, 11 May 96 14:26:16 -0500 Subject: Q: Buddhist/Jain refutation of Hinduism Message-ID: <161227024462.23782.14981003861826391931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/11/96 Query: Buddhist/Jain refutation of Hinduism ********************************************* we see several polemical writings against Jains & Buddhists. This is one component of priest-peasant alliance proposed by Burton Stein which successfully drove out these heretic religions. I want to learn how Buddhism/Jainism refuted Brahmanical Hinduism in early stages and its evolution? What are the main arguments of Sramanas for rejecting Vedas? I am intrigued to hear of Buddhist homas. I have heard these religions preferred prakrits to vedic sanskrit. Any references will be appreciated. Thanx, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sun May 12 06:37:40 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 07:37:40 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024464.23782.4349659241204713821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >The idea that transmigration could have been an ancient Indo European >esoteric tradition that later surfaced in different corners of the IE >world, but became more important in India, is interesting. However, what >solid evidence do we have that, even in India, it was important at an >early stage, before the punar-mRtyu of the BRrhadAraNnyaka UpaniSad? That is the problem. We do have solid evidence for the presence of notions of reincarnation in Greece from the early sixth century B.C. with Pheracydes of Syros and then Pythagoras. Given that it is now doubtful that the Upanishads can be dated so early, the presumption must surely be that, if there was influence, it was from Greece to India rather than the converse. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From thompson at handel.jlc.net Sun May 12 16:46:08 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 12:46:08 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024470.23782.8297002103210403630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re the remarks of Lance Cousins: "That is the problem. We do have solid evidence for the presence of notions of reincarnation in Greece from the early sixth century B.C. with Pheracydes of Syros and then Pythagoras. Given that it is now doubtful that the Upanishads can be dated so early, the presumption must surely be that, if there was influence, it was from Greece to India rather than the converse." The later dating of the UpaniSads is irrelevant if it can be shown (1) that notions of reincarnation existed already in the RV [and I think it can be], *or* (2) if it can be shown that notions of reincarnation are documented in widely divergent IE traditions [and it has been shown]. In my view, reincarnation is one of those cases where borrowing or influence is unlikely, in either direction. Sincerely, GT From PARIKH at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Sun May 12 12:17:01 1996 From: PARIKH at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (GAURI WAGENAAR_PARIKH) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 13:17:01 +0100 Subject: Digital Indological Dream? 17 oct. 1995 Message-ID: <161227024466.23782.2764830919560920122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DIGITAL INDOLOGICAL DREAM A reaction on INDOLOGY at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK, 17-OCT-1995 GATEWAY MULTIMEDIA INDIA LTD. ============================= Gateway Multimedia India offers a wide range of services in the field of Electronic Publishing. The staff of the company is multi-lingual and multi- disciplined while the management is by a Dutch national. Gateway Multimedia India is known for her linguistic publications in book format and on CD-ROM (Transliterated Hindi-Hindi-English dictionary). The company is based in Ahmedabad, 580 KM North of Bombay. MONIER-WILLIAMS We have indeed considered the publication of the Monier- Williams Sanskrit dictionary on CD-ROM. But it ain't that easy as it may look like. Not only will it require double entry & file comparation, but there are some other angles as well to enable a hypertext based search engine and retrieval. A detailed study is available for those keenly interested. We have calculated the cost of the project at Rs. 30 Lakh only ( ? $ 86.000 only) and the duration of the project on 1 year. The publication will then be entirely edited, every entry in full (no tilde) etc. The Monier is frequently reprinted and its users are world wide. At an end-user price setting of $249,95 the production will certainly pay off and will serve scholars in every remote corner of the globe. Our company has the required experience to tackle this project. See above and below. Our Hindi-English CD-ROM has received favourable reactions world wide. We do however lack the finance. Which university or scientific institute will push the project? For further details, please contact Hein W. Wagenaar e-mail : parikh at rullet.leidenuniv.nl phone & fax : 00 31 20 626 7479 address : Hoogte Kadijk 109 1018 BH - Amsterdam, The Netherlands GATEWAY MULTIMEDIA INDIA LTD. MULTILINGUAL PRODUCTIONS ======================== Gateway Multimedia India works on the creation of a single database containing the Constitutional languages of India (16) linked to the major European ones for the production of several types of dictionaries. Types of dictionaries to be derived from the database will include comprehensive monolingual and bilingual dictionaries, pocket dictionaries, multilingual dictionaries, specialised dictionaries, for example for technical terms, etc. These dictionaries will be published both as traditional paper dictionaries, as well as on CD-ROM. Further applications of the database may be found in creating thesauruses, rhyming dictionaries, spell-checking applications and natural language processing. General outline The aim of the multilingual dictionary database project is to come to a database covering a multitude of languages, with a special focus on Indian languages. This database will be the basic source for a whole range of derived end-user products, including paper dictionaries for various languages, uses, and specialisations, and multilingual dictionaries on CD-ROM. To give an example of this, if say, a market analysis shows that there is a demand for a Hindi-Marathi dictionary, it will be a matter of turning some knobs to extract the required information from the database and run it through an automatic lay-out program to create camera-ready copy which can be send off to a printer in a matter of days. A Kannada-Bengali dictionary, or any other combination of languages can be generated with the same ease. India has 18 officially recognised languages; Hindi, English, Sanskrit, Bengali, Urdu, Gujarati, Marathi, Punjabi, Oriya, Assamese, Nepali, Kashmiri, Konkani, Manipuri, Telugu, Kannada, Tamil, and Malayalam, of which Sanskrit can be omitted, while Sindhi needs to be included. Whereas the inclusion of mayor foreign languages (German, French, Russian, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Portuguese) will immensely increase the scope of the database. To enable automated dictionary production, special care has to be taken with respect to the way information is stored and linked. In every language, words have a different scope of meanings, which only partly overlap with those in other languages. The task of a bilingual dictionary is to demarcate these borders of meaning as closely as possible. For this reason, one cannot simply work with list words, but one has to work with a kind of ?link language? which has a word for every conceivable meaning in all languages. Such a link language can be provided with the means of definitions, which need to be created with great care. However, when this task is completed, the savings in work will be considerable, in fact so large, that the database can truly be called revolutionary. Traditionally, each bi-lingual dictionary was created separately, so to create a full set of bi-lingual dictionaries for 26 languages, the traditional method requires going through the editing process 676 times, whereas with our system, we only have to edit the sets of definitions and vocabulary for 26 languages, after which we can simply generate the 676 dictionaries automatically. Further, the same database can be used to derive thesauri for each of the languages covered, spelling checkers, and further products like rhyming dictionaries and puzzle dictionaries. The special focus on Indian languages introduces problems unheard of in existing dictionary databases: the use of many different complex scripts, which are in use in India, including not only at least ten different Brahmi derived scripts, each with their own peculiarities, but also the Nastaliq style of Arabic script used for Urdu, which is probably the most difficult script to automate in use today. The multilingual CD-ROM will require display and editing facilities in all Indian languages integrated into its user-interface. Although solutions exist for individual Indian languages, no-one so far has taken up the task of integrating all of them into a single product in a satisfactory way. So tackling this problem will be an important part of the project. Next to developing the required fonts, this will also include handling multiple keyboard lay-outs, and composing the complex conjunct characters and contextual dependent shapes in used in Indian scripts. The software to do this, however, when completed, will also prove to be a product in itself, with a much wider field of applications, ranging from editors and DTP products to Indian language multi-media titles and video subtitling. Further, the multi-lingual database CD-ROM application will require fast culturally correct sorting tools, which can sort according to for example the Arabic or Devanagari alphabetical order, and indexing and searching tools to navigate through the huge amount of data. Such tools will also be useful in a much wider range of Multimedia and text retrieval applications, and thus can also be marked as a separate product. Salient features of the multi-lingual database project * coverage off all mayor Indian and foreign languages in their native scripts * automatic production of monolingual, bilingual dictionaries * automatic production of specialised dictionaries * production of further products, like thesauri, puzzle and rhyming dictionaries * separately marketable products, such as * Indian language processing software, including . text presentation . text editing . spell-checking . culturally correct sorting * hyper-text indexing and retrieval software * a huge database accessible for various kinds of linguistic research.  From fp7 at columbia.edu Sun May 12 18:17:53 1996 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 14:17:53 -0400 Subject: Ramacaritamanas in Nagari/Nastaliq Message-ID: <161227024472.23782.960766474888048465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk wrote: > I have recently seen a manuscript of the Ramacaritamanasa copied in AD 1819 > which is in both Nagari and Nastaliq scripts, each page being in two columns, > one for each script. > I've never seen anything like it before. > I wonder if anyone else has ever seen similar dual script manuscripts of > famous Hindi works, or for that matter other NIA or Sanskrit works? > Dr Peter G. Friedlander > Cataloguer of Hindi and Panjabi Manuscripts > Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > 183 Euston Road > London NW1 2BN > England > e-mail: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk > I have seen a few examples of the same kind of two-script texts, mostly in the Hindi-Urdu popular (printed) pamphlet narrative genre of qissah (kissA). The ones I have seen are mostly a late-nineteenth-century phenomenon. It is extremely common in this genre for the same stories (either almost word-for-word or roughly the same plot) to circulate in both scripts; often the same publisher will publish versions of popular tales in both scripts (e.g., *baitAl paccIsI*, or *ArA'ish-e maHfil ya`nI qiSSah-e hAtim t:A'I*, or *totA mainA*). But it is very rare for them to be even bundled together, much less bound together. Even then, all the ones I have seen are sequential. I haven't seen any done as you describe, in two columns. I wonder who would buy it, and how it would be used. Sorry to reply so late... exams are finally over and I have time to breathe :) Yours cordially, Fran Pritchett From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de Sun May 12 12:42:27 1996 From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 14:42:27 +0200 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024468.23782.5088605391479825687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whereas the Samskrit-connected studies might have infleunced the emergence of linguistics, I am not sure whether the suggestion by LGoehler at aol.com that linguistic turn in Philosophy can be traced back to Samskrit studies is valid. The main source of the linguistic turn are the problems connected with the logic and 'logical form'. There was a dissatisfaction with the the 19th century formulations of the domain of logic as that of 'laws of thought' or 'judgement', 'inference' etc. That formulation, it was thought, doesn't clearly demarcate the study of logic from that of studying psychological processes. 'Proposition', 'implication' etc. were suggested in place of 'judgement', 'inference' etc., and this suggestion appeared to postulate a mysterious third realm other than the 'mental' and the 'physical' ones. The 'linguistic turn' was the result of discussions in the process of efforts at avoiding an 'additional world of entities' as the domain of study for logicians and philosophers. The account by G. Ryle in the book edited by him, 'The Revolution in Philosophy' is still basically what more recent authors too present in connection with the 'linguistic turn' . Though Saussure's model was a source of the French approaches of 'Structuralism' in Literary Studies and Social Science (perhaps through the mediation of Levy Strauss), it was hardly a factor influencing the 'linguistic turn' as understood in Analytical Philosophy. > Narahari Rao ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. B. Narahari Rao, F.R. 5.1. Philosophie, Unversitaet des Saarlandes, Postfach 151150, D-66041 Saarbruecken, Germany. (Tel: +49 681 302 2849) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Sun May 12 23:32:41 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 19:32:41 -0400 Subject: Email address? Message-ID: <161227024479.23782.3290727995831478981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Does anyone know the email address of Leon Schlamm at University of Kent at Canterbury? Thanks in advance. Sushil Mittal mittals at ere.umontreal.ca From Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Sun May 12 20:10:11 1996 From: Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 20:10:11 +0000 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024490.23782.12603119631027044166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > That is the problem. We do have solid evidence for the presence of notions > of reincarnation in Greece from the early sixth century B.C. with > Pheracydes of Syros and then Pythagoras. Given that it is now doubtful that > the Upanishads can be dated so early, the presumption must surely be that, > if there was influence, it was from Greece to India rather than the > converse. > > Lance Cousins > > MANCHESTER, UK > Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk > I was under the impression that it was generally agreed that the idea of transmigration came into Greek (particularly Pythagorean) thought via the Orphics, and that they, in turn had picked it up from Persian sources. Bidez certainly seems to think so, but I am not too sure on what evidence. -- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun May 12 20:23:47 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 21:23:47 +0100 Subject: List of references in Astronomy Message-ID: <161227024474.23782.9651673519283228978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Many people have asked for the references so I thought it wise to post it to the list... :-) Here is the list of references: 1) Indian Astronomy: A source book (eds. Subbarayappa,B.V. & Sarma, K.V.), Bombay, 1985 2) A Bibliography of Kerala & Kerala-based Astronomy & Astrology, Sarma, K.V., Hoshiarpur, 1966 3) A Critical Study of Ancient Hindu Astronomy, Somayajii,D.A., Karnatak University, Dharwar, 1972 4) A History of Indian Astronomy (eds. Shukla,K.S. & Sen,S.N.) INSA, New Delhi, 1985 5) Aryabhatiya with the Commentary of Bhaskara I and Someswara (eds.Shukla,K.S. & Sen,S.N.) INSA, New Delhi, 1976 6) Muralidhara Chaturveda (ed.), Siddhantasiromani, Varanasi, 1981 7) Aryabhatiyam with the Bhashya of Nilakantha Somasutvan: Golapada (ed. Pillai, S.K.), Trivandrum Sanskrit Series, no 185, 1957 8) Tantrasangraha of Nilakantha Somasutvan with the commentary Laghuvivritti of Sankara Variar (ed. Pillai, S.K.), Trivandrum Sanskrit Series, no 188, 1958 9) Kern, B. (ed.), Aryabhatiyam with Vyakhya of Paramesvara, Leyden, 1885 10) Kuppanna Sastri,T.S. (ed.), Mahabaskariam with Govindasvamin's Vyakhaya and Siddhantadipika of Paramesvara, Madras Govt. Oriental Series, no 130, 1957 11) Sarma, K.V. (ed.), Grahasphutanayane Vikshepavasana of Nilkantha Somastuvan in Ganitayuktayah, Hoshiarpur, 1979 12) Sambasiva Sastri,K. (ed.), Aryabhatiyam with the Bhashya of Nilakantha Somasutvan: Kalakriyapada, Trivandrum Sanskrit Series, No 110, 1931 13) Sarma,K.V. (editor & translator) Siddhantadarpana, Hoshiarpur, 1976 14) Mahabhaskariya of Bhaskaracharya,I, edited & translated by Shukla,K.S., Lucknow, 1960. 15) Sarma,K.V. (ed.) Sphutanirayanatantra of Acyuta Pisarati, Hoshiarpur, 1974 16) Rasigolasphutaniti of Acyuta Pirasati, ed & translated by Sarma,K.V., Hoshiarpur, 1977. 17) Siddantadarpana of Mahamahopadhyaya Samanta Sri Chandrasekhara Simha, Calcutta 1897, V.36) 18) Nature, 1532, 59, 437, 1899 (by W.E.P.) Bye, Girish Beeharry From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Mon May 13 04:44:16 1996 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 21:44:16 -0700 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024485.23782.7397942609813322838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Transmigration in the RV How have traditional pundits (i.e., excluding reformers such as Dayananda Sarasvati and members of other modern movements) explained the apparent absence of karma and transmigration in the RV? It would be interesting to see how traditional scholars, who generally see a common trend of thought from the RV to the Gita, read these theories into the Vedic samhitas. Are their interpretations, if any, entirely too far fetched? Mani From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun May 12 20:55:32 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 21:55:32 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024476.23782.10219515633145594275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I have always wondered how people date the various texts, sites etc in Indology. Last Friday, 10th of May, I went to a very interesting meeting of the Royal Astronomical Society on 'Astroarcheology'. Astronomers are very interested in the slowing down of the Earth's rotation rate and ways of estimating that are by using the eclipses of the Sun and Moon. For doing this, they need people (e.g. from this list) who have access to documents on these phenomena as well as other astronomical 'signposts' like calendars, solstices and the like. One very curious thing about the whole meeting was that no mention was made at all of Indological sources. Everything else has been used, Babylonians, Greeks, Mayas, Aztecs etc. I wonder why. Are there no documents at all on all this (ecplipses etc)? If there are, how far back in time do any data exist? I think that there is a good scope for cross disciplinary work on this field. I am sure you would want to date your texts objectively with a given uncertainty! :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry On Sun, 12 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > Re the remarks of Lance Cousins: > "That is the problem. We do have solid evidence for the presence of notions > of reincarnation in Greece from the early sixth century B.C. with > Pheracydes of Syros and then Pythagoras. Given that it is now doubtful that > the Upanishads can be dated so early, the presumption must surely be that, > if there was influence, it was from Greece to India rather than the > converse." > > The later dating of the UpaniSads is irrelevant if it can be shown (1) that > notions of reincarnation existed already in the RV [and I think it can be], > *or* (2) if it can be shown that notions of reincarnation are documented in > widely divergent IE traditions [and it has been shown]. > > In my view, reincarnation is one of those cases where borrowing or > influence is unlikely, in either direction. > > Sincerely, > GT > > > > From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon May 13 03:24:24 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 12 May 96 23:24:24 -0400 Subject: RV transmigration Message-ID: <161227024483.23782.4179386105595893064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know that the conventional view is that a doctrine of transmigration does not arise until the UpaniSads. And I concede that there is nothing very explicit in the RV [certainly there is no 'direct reference to a doctrine of transmigration' there], but I would invite you to consider the Atmastutis, which I have been studying in light of IE parallels. Take for example RV 4.26, the well-known hymn that presents the myth of the capture of Soma from heaven. The utterance of the first few stanzas, at least, are traditionally attributed to Indra. They appear to be a "song of self-praise", in which Indra seems to boast of his participation in the deed, and in which he celebrates his ecstasy under the influence of that drink of immortality. In the opening stanza he says: "I was Manu and I was SUrya. I am KakSIvat, the RSi, an inspired sage. I defeated Kutsa, son of Arjuna. I am the Kavi Uzanas. See me [as I am]!" The speaker continues on for two more stanzas proclaiming his glorious deeds. Or are they rather Indra's deeds? Or is the speaker impersonating Indra? Or rather, is Indra entering into the speaker and speaking through him? In my view, whatever is going on here, there is strong suggestion of transmigration in this passage, as there are in many other passages. In a forthcoming paper I will attempt to demonstrate this more fully. But one more point here: if horses can be incarnations of the sun [note the repeated references to the sacrificial horse's "highest birth" in RV 1.163; he is also directly identified with Yama, Aditya and Trita there], presumably poets can also be incarnations of their priestly predecessors, or perhaps even of the gods themselves. Thus, while there may not be 'direct references' to a doctrine of transmigration in the RV, there is, I think, good evidence that the poets of the RV believed in something like transmigration, as did their IE ancestors, and furthermore that they performed their hymns as if there were such a thing. Finally, if I may say so without offending, I would recommend that we stop relying on the pronouncements of old handbooks of Vedic, and start reading texts like the RV with our own eyes. There remain many very interesting and largely unobserved things in them. Sincerely, GT From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Mon May 13 14:59:54 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 08:59:54 -0600 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024493.23782.11276997761127266673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beehaary wrote: > > >I have always wondered how people date the various texts, sites etc in >Indology. Last Friday, 10th of May, I went to a very interesting meeting >of the Royal Astronomical Society on 'Astroarcheology'. > >One very curious thing about the whole meeting was that no mention was >made at all of Indological sources. Everything else has been used, >Babylonians, Greeks, Mayas, Aztecs etc. I wonder why. Are there no >documents at all on all this (ecplipses etc)? If there are, how far back >in time do any data exist? > Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that there are many people who believe (like David Pingree) that many fundamental ideas of astronomy in India were borrowed from out side. Neugebauer in his monumental work on the history of ancient astronomy devotes all of 1 and 1/4 pages (in 1300 hundred pages) to Indian Astronomy, and proclaims, "it is fair to say....... none of the other civilizations of antiquity (other than the Greek!) ..have ever reached an independent level of scientific thought". There are some people who believe that observations were not part of Aryabhata's astronomy, inspite of the evidence otherwise. The same attitude of neglecting the contributions of ancient Indian astronomy persists even in elementary text books on astronomy, where ususally some history of astronomy is given. The accounts given in elementary text books usually do not say anything about Indian astronomy. If any thing is said it is generally incomplete, or even totally wrong. Some of the blame can be traced to the early Indologists such as Bentley, who could not distinguish between Budha (Mercury) and Buddha (Saakyamuni). While many records have been lost, many of those available may have been misinterpreted. However, some work on the astronomical significance of Indian temples have been done by Malville and others in recent years._Narahari Achar From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Mon May 13 01:48:04 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 09:48:04 +0800 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024481.23782.17247034579401976475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a well known legend about transmigration associated with a historic figure in India - Adi Sankarachaarya. Perhaps someone more knowledgable can comment on the storey. Regards...Devadas At 11:27 AM 5/10/96 BST, you wrote: >Luis Arnold Gonzales wrote: >> >>The idea that transmigration could have been an ancient Indo European >>esoteric tradition that later surfaced in different corners of the IE >>world, but became more important in India, is interesting. However, what >>solid evidence do we have that, even in India, it was important at an >>early stage, before the punar-mRtyu of the BRrhadAraNnyaka UpaniSad? >> > >As far as I remember, when transmigration is introduced in a dialogue >between Yajnavalkya and another philosopher (I don't remember exactly, but >possible the Chandogya), it is introduced as a kind of secret teaching. >This hardly constitutes "hard proof" that transmigration was part of an >esoteric Indo-European heritage, but I think the possibility should be >considered. > >I will, however, readily admit one thing: Scholars tend to try to explain a >given problem by means of the intellectual tools with which they are well >acquainted. People with a love for comparative IE linguistics, like myself, >would of course go looking for indications of a common heritage, whereas >others, who do not have the same background, will go looking for other >explanations more in tune with their own educational profiles. This is why >I find this discussion so interesting. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > >Lars Martin Fosse >Research Fellow >Department of East European >and Oriental Studies >P. O. Box 1030, Blindern >N-0315 OSLO Norway > >Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 >Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > >E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Sun May 12 22:53:12 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 10:53:12 +1200 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024478.23782.14993558155547728301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The later dating of the UpaniSads is irrelevant if it can be shown (1) that >notions of reincarnation existed already in the RV [and I think it can be], I am almost certain that there is no mention of transmigration before the upanishadic period. The Rig Veda is conspicuously silent about a doctrine which seems to be central to later hindu compositions. - & From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Mon May 13 09:56:26 1996 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 11:56:26 +0200 Subject: Correction: hypergamy-hypothesis Message-ID: <161227024487.23782.13017324726604858462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for valuable answers by Deavadas and Peter Claus. Obviously, the subject is far from being exhausted, however, and more information / reflection is welcome. I believe that the basic theme here, the relation between women and land, is central. Land is often gendered as female, and what is fascinating about Quigley's suggestions is that they indicate relations between the two that are more than merely literary. In fact, Declan Quigley responded to my first mail. Although he is not a member of this list, it seems, another member was kind enough as to forward the post to him. As his subsequent answer to me showed that my summary of the pages referred to was not quite accurate his remarks ought to be forwarded: >Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:58:36 +0000 >To: Mikael Aktor >From: dquigley at clio.arts.qub.ac.uk (Declan Quigley) >Subject: hypergamy > >I have just been forwarded the note you >circulated concerning the argument I make about hypergamy in _The >Interpretation of Caste_. In fact this is not MY hypothesis: it is Richard >G. Fox's (1970 - see my book for the full reference) as I point out on >p.111, and I simply combine his insights with Parry's work on hypergamy in >north India and mine on isogamy in the Kathmandu Valley. > >Readers of your note might infer that this is THE main argument of my book >when of course it is not. In that particular chapter I am simply trying to >integrate some of the material on caste and kinship into the general >'king-centred' perspective on caste which seems to me the only one which >makes much sense. And in particular I am trying to show that hypergamy >(which initially seems to imply a transgressing of caste boundaries) is not >abnormal wherever one finds caste: quite the reverse. On the question of >the character of tribute marriages, I am not suggesting any uniform rule >concerning control over land. At one end of the spectrum there could be a >situation where previous power-holders were simply swept away and the >newcomers did not need to establish marriage ties with the erstwhile >aristoracy (as was the case in the Kathmandu Valley at the end of the 18th >century). At the other, ruling lineages in one locality might establish >tributary marriages with more powerful neighbours, giving daughters and >nothing else, in the hope of _preventing_ more coercive political and >economic control - alliance rather than threatened subjugation. Marriage >alliances among Nepal's Chetri lineages seem to follow this kind of >pattern. And, then, presumably there have been all sorts of variations in >between these two extremes of alliance and outright hostility. > ....... >For a more fleshed-out version of the argument with >reference to one particular locale and its recent history, I refer you to >the recent book I have edited with David N. Gellner: _Contested >Hierarchies: A Collaborative Ethnography of Caste among the Newars of the >Kathmandu Valley, Nepal_, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Regards Mikael Aktor Institute for History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Mon May 13 17:01:36 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 12:01:36 -0500 Subject: INDIA: THE DILEMMAS OF DIVERSITY Message-ID: <161227024499.23782.11093246173959234765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I have posted an article by Prof. Hardgrave on India. You can access this article at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/india/Hardgrave.html Thanks. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 13 16:03:39 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 12:03:39 -0400 Subject: transmigration in the RV Message-ID: <161227024497.23782.8469328261949408711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While reading the RV passages about Indra becoming Manu etc., one need not necessarily think in terms of reincarnation or transmigration. The RV, and specifically in the context of Indra, says: indro maayaabhiH pururuupa iiyate (ref ???). Indra, being a god, has the ability to assume multiple forms with his maayaa 'the mysterious power'. This is indeed different from the karmically guided rebirth of the Upanizads. It is more like the incarnations of VizNu, a more self-motivated agentive appearance of god as someone or another: prakRtim svaam adhizThaaya sambhavaamy aatmamaayayaa (BG) An interesting example of lack of the idea of transmigration may be Vedic Yama, who is described as : yo mamaara prathamo martyaanaam (RV ref ???: Hey! I am relying on my memory here!) "he who was the first mortal to die". He became a permanent gardian of the world of the dead, so much so that the KaTha Upanizad makes him say: anityair dravyaiH praaptavaan asmi nityam "I have attained this permanent abode by means of transient (sacrificial) materials". This view is of course controverted by the Upanizads which look at the sacrifices as providing only a temporary stay in heaven. But here we perhaps have a glimpse of the old Vedic view. It is, however, the case that there have been previous claims to discovering the ideas of karma and transmigration in the RV. The late N.N. Bhide of Poona, a Sanskrit teacher of myself and Ashok Aklujkar, wrote an 83 page long essay in Sanskrit on this topic which won a gold medal from the University of Mysore. It was also published from Mysore, and apparently has been reprinted more recently. The exact details of this publication are as follows: The Karma Theory, Its origin, nature, proof and implications N.N. Bhide Navinam Ramanutacharya Sanskrit Prize Essay published by the University of Mysore, Mysore, 1950 The title of the small book is in English, but the essay itself is in Sanskrit. It was originally written and submitted for this prize in 1944. The author, though writing in Sanskrit, refers to the western scholarship on this topic that was avaiable to him. It would be worth looking up this work for the cited evidence and arguments. One may or may not agree with its conclusions, but it is certainly a serious effort, in spite of its 'nationalistic anti-western' tone. If anyone cannot find a copy and badly needs one, I can make a photocopy. Contact me personally at mmdesh at umich.edu. Madhav Deshpande From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Mon May 13 14:50:24 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 16:50:24 +0200 Subject: Nabagunjara Message-ID: <161227024495.23782.13187949246129699491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On several occasions I have seen in India, both in temple paintings and in traditional crafts, representations of a chimera mixing 9 animals: peacock, bull, horse, lion, snake, elephant, ... with a human hand holding Vi.s.nu's cakra. It is usually called "Nabagunjara", and is supposed to represent K.r.s.na showing his power to Arjuna during "Khandava Dahan". I am interested in learning the textual origin of this mythology. It could of course be an artistic rendition of K.r.s.na's theophany in the GItA, but I suspect that there is a more precise textual origin. I am also at a loss at interpreting the term nabagunjara: Naba is probably a corruption of nava, but I could not find anything closely resembling gu~njara in Monier-Williams. I am also interested in secondary sources describing this symbol. Since this is probably not of general interest, I suggest that you send me your comments by email, I shall summarize here informative answers. Gerard Huet From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon May 13 22:09:36 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 18:09:36 -0400 Subject: RV transmigration Message-ID: <161227024503.23782.13371105617706008169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received several interesting but skeptical responses to my claims for a RV belief in transmigration. Perhaps I can begin my defense by referring to a private note sent earlier to Mani Varadarajan: "It is a pleasure to respond to your note. You are quite right. The tradition does attribute this stanza [i.e., RV 4.26] to VAmadeva, and I do not challenge the tradition on this. However, the stanza [along with the two following] is also called an Atmastuti [in BD it is called AtmasaMstAva], and it is understood that VAmadeva is speaking as if he were Indra. This has puzzled scholars, who uniformly [as far as I know], attribute the 3 stanzas to Indra, or to VAmadeva adopting the role of Indra. This is why, in my note, I say: 'The speaker continues on for two more stanzas proclaiming his glorious deeds. Or are they rather Indra's deeds? Or is the speaker impersonating Indra? Or rather, is Indra entering into the speaker and speaking through him?' So from my point of view, my interpretation is consistent with that of the BAU. Even if, as the BAU says, these are VAmadeva's words, don't they still seem to imply that VAmadeva was an incarnation of Manu, of SUrya, etc.? In short, in my note I wish to show that the UpaniSads and the RV, at least in this case, are consistent, and that the handbooks that suggest otherwise are wrong." In response to this note, Mani makes an interesting distinction between what is going on in the RV passage and its interpretation at BAU 1.4.10. There, he says: "the upanishad understands vAmadeva to be saying that through his consciousness of Brahman, he was manu, sUrya, and everything else. There is no implication of karma or rebirth in the upanishad's usage of this quote." Similarly, in his skeptical response to my claims, Madhav Deshpande observes: "Indra, being a god, has the ability to assume multiple forms with his maayaa 'the mysterious power'. This is indeed different from the karmically guided rebirth of the Upanizads. It is more like the incarnations of VizNu, a more self-motivated agentive appearance of god as someone or another: prakRtim svaam adhizThaaya sambhavaamy aatmamaayayaa (BG)." In fact, the BhG also contains an example of the "literary genre" which I am now engaged in studying [as do also several UpaniSads]. I name it the Atmastuti because of my Vedic bias, but it is widely attested, not only in other IE traditions, but in several non-IE traditions as well [e.g., Sumerian, Zu?i, Hawaiian, Australian: I would hope that there is no question of borrowing among these, at least!]. In all these cases, the impersonation of the god seems to imply the reincarnation of the god, or at least the temporary manifestation of the god on earth. If these do not seem to reflect a doctrine of transmigration exactly like the classical doctrine of India, I still claim that it is in these, in particular in the RV version of this genre, that the classical doctrine has its roots. By the way, if Mani's interpretation is correct, and VAmadeva is asserting his consciousness of Brahman, and thereby his unity with all things, what becomes of a doctrine of transmigration and reincarnation? Doesn't it evaporate? There is also more evidence from the RV, besides the Atmastutis. Consider terms like zatA?tman and purutm?n, for example. I still think that the handbooks are wrong. What I see in this evidence is transmigration. Sincerely, GT From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Mon May 13 18:34:29 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 19:34:29 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024501.23782.6721000652314228461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson writes: >The later dating of the UpaniSads is irrelevant if it can be shown (1) that >notions of reincarnation existed already in the RV [and I think it can be], >*or* (2) if it can be shown that notions of reincarnation are documented in >widely divergent IE traditions [and it has been shown]. Claim 1) is fairly unbelievable. I have doubts as to whether it is present in the Braahma.nas and have not so far managed to tease out anyone willing to defend the claim that it is. I suspect that in fact claim 1) is only plausible in the light of claim 2). My problem with claim 2) is that I don't think it can be shown. One reads such claims but most seem to me to be dependent on late evidence from a time when the notion is widespread anyway. >In my view, reincarnation is one of those cases where borrowing or >influence is unlikely, >in either direction. Should you not give reasons for this claim ? Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue May 14 05:44:49 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu) Date: Mon, 13 May 96 23:44:49 -0600 Subject: RV transmigration Message-ID: <161227024505.23782.16080069000070203373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the transmigration/RV debate, I found something which, regardless the correct point of view, was of interest viz. the following in Thompson's last forward: ------- "I have received several interesting but skeptical responses to my claims for a RV belief in transmigration. Perhaps I can begin my defense by referring to a private note sent earlier to Mani Varadarajan: "It is a pleasure to respond to your note. You are quite right. The tradition does attribute this stanza [i.e., RV 4.26] to VAmadeva, and I do not challenge the tradition on this. However, the stanza [along with the two following] is also called an Atmastuti [in BD it is called AtmasaMstAva], and it is understood that VAmadeva is speaking as if he were Indra. This has puzzled scholars, who uniformly [as far as I know], attribute the 3 stanzas to Indra, or to VAmadeva adopting the role of Indra. " ----- True, whther VAmadeva or Indra, there is a similar dynamic of multiple identities. As I plod through making an e-Nirukta, I couldn't help but note Y's discussion of 4.26.7 in N 11.2 viz. the above. Y notes that the significance of shata is because the soma is pressed 1000's of times-- each time becoming more pure. In addition, it is hard to accept that retributive karma is the only doctrine of karma which counts for identifying an early presence of reincarnation themes. A fledgling origin of reincarnation, based upon natural cycles, might not include retributive karma per se. Sacrifices, representing the natural and/or cycles of life, came to be so complex as to require expiations for error . . . a retributive karma could have found resonance in this idea. On the other hand, noting this or that source as "wrong" is subject to the telic concerns of origin as 'x' not 'y'. There is clearly a "resonant field" of ideas of repitition and substitution arising in the ritual literature, drawing upon the imagery of the saMhitaas. That the rituals became reduced via substitution to more meditative forms has been suggested by Bodewitz viz. the praaNaagnihotra and the JaiB. John Robert Gardner University of Iowa **************************************************************************** ****************** John Robert Gardner, M.A. Asian Languages & Literature University of Iowa uushaa vaa ashvasya medhyasya shiraaH Iowa City, IA 52242 **************************************************************************** ****************** "It is ludicrous to consider language as anything other than that of which it is the transformation" From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue May 14 09:11:02 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 02:11:02 -0700 Subject: RV transmigration Message-ID: <161227024507.23782.13001723292279160000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > By the way, if Mani's interpretation is correct, and VAmadeva is asserting > his consciousness of Brahman, and thereby his unity with all things, what > becomes of a doctrine of transmigration and reincarnation? Doesn't it > evaporate? If the doctrine of transmigration and reincarnation (at least as understood today) is foreign to the RV, then isn't the doctrine of brahman being everything also upanishadic and therefore removed from the RV itself? The vedAnta schools view vAmadeva's assertions as an expression of brahman- realization. But modern scholars, not being constrained by the brahmasUtras, may be able to read other meanings into it, no? In this context, I am also reminded of Eliot Deutsch's characterization of karma as "a convenient fiction" for advaita vedAnta. I have always felt that this overlooks the detailed description of jIvanmukti and how karma operates in classical advaita. What happens to the doctrine of transmigration and reincarnation when the brahman consciousness is asserted? All karma itself vanishes, except for prArabdha karma. As for the doctrine, it ceases to matter, because the effort of the mumukshu is not so much to understand karma as to find a way out of it. S. Vidyasankar From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Tue May 14 11:43:29 1996 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 04:43:29 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024512.23782.2471605691506809312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> New Message Date: May 13, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members In response to Mikael Aktor's call for "more information / reflection" on hypergamy and land transfer, I had a question of my own. Mr. Aktor went on to say: "Land is often gendered as female, and what is fascinating about Quigley's suggestions is that they indicate relations between the two that are more than merely literary." In thinking about this I began to wonder if indeed land WAS regarded as essentially female. With all respect to Bhuudeevi, I suspect that FIELDS (a special kind of land, and the kind in question) and ritual space and battlegrounds might well be regarded as male. Or at least controlled by males, cultivated by males, transformed by males or something like that. In any case, there seems to be something very male about some kinds of land. At the very least, land is the PROPERTY of males and when men give other men property it is something of themselves, and I am not sure it is the femaleness of the thing given which is formost. But maybe ..... What IS "land-as-field" literarily? Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 885-3353 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Tue May 14 13:34:33 1996 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 06:34:33 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024516.23782.3134735081030232562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> New Message Date: May 14, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members I am not at all knowledgeable about ancient Indian religious literature, but the verses from the atmastutis to which GT refers seem to describe something like spirit possession or some sort of shamanistic ritual rather than what I think of as a (formal) doctrine of either transmigration or reincarnation. Spirit possession is a common event in south Indian ritual and shamanism is common throughout northern India. Both, of course, occur almost world-wide (shamanism throughout Eurasia and the Americas; spirit possession throughout south Asia and Africa). If this is evidence of either a doctrine of transmigration or reincarnation, then it would seem these are very much older than the 6th century. But is the "doctrine of transmigration" so vaguely defined that any form of interparticpation of identity, whether in ritual drama or mythological intertextuality might serve as evidence for its existence? If so, why not contemplate Africa or northern Asia (because of its prevalence in these regions) as its source? For that matter, why should one limit oneself to a textual source, not a belief or a practice for which other kinds of evidence might be more readily available? Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 885-3353 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From gat4 at columbia.edu Tue May 14 13:48:42 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 09:48:42 -0400 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024517.23782.4184181659876670060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik has asked about the words "bholantika" and "tailapaayin". Platts gives "tail-paayii" in his _Dictionary of Urdu, Classical Hindi, and English_ as meaning a cockroach. From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue May 14 14:27:52 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:27:52 -0400 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024519.23782.3144865163376918118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apte's The Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary, 1958 edition, Prasad Prakashan, Poona, Vol. II, p. 786, lists taipapaayin and cites a passage from the Mahaabhaarata. Apte interprets this word as referring to "a kind of cockroach". He also lists taila_ambukaa, tailapaka, tailapakaa, tailapaa, tailapaayikaa, and tailacaurikaa in the same sense. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 14 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > In the Kaa"sysapasa.mhitaa, a medical text, there is a list of birds which > includes the names "bholantikaa" and "tailapaayin". I have an idea that > the latter may be a bat or flying fox, rather than a bird, though I am not > sure. But I have so far not been able to find either of these bird names > in the dictionaries. > > Any suggestions? > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > > > From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue May 14 09:44:36 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:44:36 +0100 Subject: Indian classical music concert in London Message-ID: <161227024510.23782.17883958236060658124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is to announce a free concert at the Horniman Museum on Sunday 26 May at 3.00 P.M. Krishnamurti Sridhar, sarod. Sanjay Jhala, tabla. Camilla Hale, tampura. K. Sridhar was born in Bombay in 1948, and is isssued from 12 generations of Brahmin musicians from Tanjore. mother, herself a descendant of Narasimha Bhagavatar of Tanjore. Later he underwent a rigourous training in Hindustani music having selected the sarod as the instrument best suited for his taste. He studied for many years with Ustad Zia Mohiuddin Dagar, specialist of the rudra veena of the Dhrupad Dhamar style and was in constant company of masters such as Ustad Nasir Moinuddin Dagar and Nasir Aminuddin Dagar. At 14 he became a member of Pandit Ravi Shankar's orchestral group . His young talent was recognised when he was granted at the age of 25 the honorary title of `Sur-Mani' at the Kal-ke-kalakar Festival in Bombay. The Horniman Museum is located at 100 London Road, Forest Hill, London SE23 3PQ, 5 minutes walk from Forest Hill station (British Rail) and accessible through buses: 176, 185, 312, P4, P13, 63 and 122). This concert is part of a series devoted to the music of lute type instruments from the far East to North Africa. Other forthcoming concerts are: 12 May Adel Salameh - ud, 19 May Rie Yanagisawa - shamisen and koto The concert is free but seats can be booked from the Secretary of the Museum. From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue May 14 15:06:15 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:06:15 -0400 Subject: Ad for a position in SEA literature & culture Message-ID: <161227024521.23782.6152594388435091387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ANNOUNCING A TENURE-TRACK POSITION IN SOUTHEAST ASIAN LITERATURE & CULTURE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN PLEASE PASS ON THIS ANNOUNCEMENT TO INTERESTED STUDENTS, COLLEAGUES, AND INSTITUTIONS The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Michigan, seeks candidates for a tenure-track position in Southeast Asian literature and culture beginning in the fall term, 1997. Applicants should have a Ph.D. (or advanced candidacy) in an appropriate discipline, native or near-native competence in a Southeast Asian language (specifically one or more from among Thai, Vietnamese, Filipino, Malay, and Indonesian) and a deep understanding of and ability to interpret the literatures and the cultures of the region in a wider academic context. We seek an excellent teacher whose duties will include courses that explore issues in the literary, religious, and historical cultures of the region, and upper-level seminars in which students read and interpret texts in the original languages. Please send letter of application, CV, demonstration of research interests (publication/writing samples, if any), and evidence of teaching plans or experience (e.g., sample syllabi and course evaluations, if available) by December 15, 1996. Also have three referees submit letters of reference by the same date to the Chair of the Southeast Asia Search Committee, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, 3070 Frieze Building, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285. Phone (313) 764-8286, Fax (313) 747-0157. The University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory/affirmative action employer. For further details, you may contact me, Prof. Madhav Deshpande, at "mmdesh at umich.edu". Thanks. From proj3 at nicolaua.uab.es Tue May 14 11:14:38 1996 From: proj3 at nicolaua.uab.es (proj3 at nicolaua.uab.es) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:14:38 +0000 Subject: _Int'l Journal of Hindu Studies_ subscription Message-ID: <161227024508.23782.7361710732285289066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear sirs: Thanks to my subscription to INDOLOGY I have come to know your publication International Journal of Hindu Studies. My main interest in the hindu world ar languages, both Indoeuropean -the indic branch- and Dravidian. I would like to know if this topics are treated in your journal in order to decide to make my subscription. Thanks for the time devoted! Juan Carlos Azkoitia Barcelona, Spain e-mail: proj3 at nicolaua.uab.es From bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu Tue May 14 17:14:20 1996 From: bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu (B. Hatcher) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 12:14:20 -0500 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024524.23782.12660084593515041515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On tailapaka, etc., see Manu 12.63, where Kullukabhatta glosses tailapaka as: tailapaayikaakhyah pak.sii. Brian Hatcher Illinois Wesleyan University >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 14 1996 May +0100 19:08:00 Date: 14 May 1996 19:08:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello, In your message: <960514124609.17C-100000 at ucl.ac.uk> date: <14 May 96> You wrote on "[Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin": > >In the Kaa"sysapasa.mhitaa, a medical text, there is a list of birds which >includes the names "bholantikaa" and "tailapaayin". I have an idea that >the latter may be a bat or flying fox, rather than a bird, though I am not >sure. But I have so far not been able to find either of these bird names >in the dictionaries. Boehtlingk and Roth have "eine Art Schabe" (Sanskrit-Woerterbuch, s.v. tailapaayin), at least the references they give point to a small animal, a sort of vermin, insect or whatever. The commentaries to Yaajnavalkyasm.rti 3.211 have "kii.tavi"se.sa"(Mitaak.sara, Baalakrii.daa). Similar Mahabh. 3.5509 ed. Calc., I have not checked Mark.Pur. 15.23. The probably related tailapaayikaa is to be found in Amarako.sa 2.5.26 (with "paro.s.nii" as paryaaya). The commentaries may provide further clues. See also "Sabdakalpadruma, s. vocibus "tailapaayikaa", "tailapaa". -- If tailapaayin means "bird" or "flying animal" then it would be a new entry in the dictionary. I have no idea what concerns "bholantikaa" (hapax legomenon?). \bye Peter Wyzlic From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue May 14 12:49:03 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 12:49:03 +0000 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024514.23782.5660763365470558828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Kaa"sysapasa.mhitaa, a medical text, there is a list of birds which includes the names "bholantikaa" and "tailapaayin". I have an idea that the latter may be a bat or flying fox, rather than a bird, though I am not sure. But I have so far not been able to find either of these bird names in the dictionaries. Any suggestions? -- Dominik Wujastyk From kbmartin at umich.edu Tue May 14 19:17:54 1996 From: kbmartin at umich.edu (Katherine B Martineau) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:17:54 -0400 Subject: land as female? Message-ID: <161227024526.23782.9653118164086812399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 14 May 1996, Peter Claus wrote: > suspect that FIELDS (a special kind of land, and the kind in > question) and ritual space and battlegrounds might well be > regarded as male. Or at least controlled by males, cultivated by > males, transformed by males or something like that. In any case, > there seems to be something very male about some kinds of land. > At the very least, land is the PROPERTY of males and when men > give other men property it is something of themselves, and I am > not sure it is the femaleness of the thing given which is > formost. But maybe ..... > This very description seems to me as evidence of how and why land is identified as/with females. True, it may not be the femaleness that is foremost, rather the relation of the land to men. Yet is that not what is also foremost in the consideration (defination even?) of a female (her relationship to men, be it husband, father, brother)? Katherine Martineau kbmartin at umich.edu From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue May 14 23:33:18 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 16:33:18 -0700 Subject: Land as female Message-ID: <161227024534.23782.11958458520078947496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One should be aware in discussing this theme that metaphors in Indian languages are frequently determined by the grammatical genders ( a few years ago, it would have been considered unnecessary to qualify "gender" with 'grammatical"!) of nouns and that a grammatical gender is determined, at least in Indo-Aryan languages, primarily by the phonetic/phonemic form of a stem (except where an obvious sex distinction exists in the object denoted by a stem). 'Land' *can* become female simply because the word denoting it happens to have a form predominantly associated with feminine stems. Roman Jakobson used to tell the story of a poem that spoke of love through a metaphor of trees. In the original Russian of the poem, the words for the two trees involved happened to be masculine and feminine. Primarily through the genders the poet was able to convey to his reader that the poem was not really about two trees but about a man and a woman (in terms of Sanskrit poetics, the poem was an instance of samaasokti). When the poem was translated into other languages, some of them had only masculine words for the two trees and some only feminine. You can imagine how the love suggested in the poem must have been interpreted in the translations. ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue May 14 21:04:52 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:04:52 -0400 Subject: RV transmigration Message-ID: <161227024528.23782.12804599992353563000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Claus' observation that RV 4.26.1: "seem[s] to describe something like spirit possession or some sort of shamanistic ritual rather than what I think of as a (formal) doctrine of either transmigration or reincarnation" seems to me to be very pertinent. Likewise his remarks about our "vaguely defined" doctrine of transmigration. In fact it has seemed to me that we have been operating with divergent definitions of "transmigration." John Gardner seems to be making the same point, helping to clarify things by characterizing the classical doctrine as "retributive karma", which I am in no way claiming to be present in the RV. So it will certainly help if we defined our terms more clearly. What I see in the RV is no formal doctrine. The RV is not that kind of text: it is not about doctrine; it is, in my view, about performance. Those of us who wind up studying the RV are more or less inevitably oriented toward philology, the study of texts. As a result, in my opinion, many of the most interesting features of that text have been lost on us. It does not disturb me at all to consider RV Atmastutis in light of spirit possession or shamanism [I had thought of mentioning Haitian spirit possession, but refrained because I didn't have textual reference at hand: that's thinking like a philologist...]. possession. Are we promiscuously mixing categories? Or are these phenomena somehow related? While I do not claim that they are all identical, I do claim that they are significantly related. Finally, re a remark of Gardner's concerning a "dynamic of multiple identities": the Atmastutis also may suggest that "Vedic identity" is in fact a far more fluid, dynamic, and unstable thing than what we, in the late 20th century, have come to think of as identity, a relatively fixed and predictable thing [unless we dabble in post-modernism, of course...]. Thanks for the interesting responses. GT From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue May 14 21:52:08 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: RV transmigration, corrected Message-ID: <161227024531.23782.3342349921818316191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my recent posting a line was somehow cut out, I don't know how. Here it is, in its full paragraph: "From RV Atmastutis to Brahman-consciousness to retributive karma to spirit possession. Are we promiscuously mixing categories? Or are these phenomena somehow related? While I do not claim that they are all identical, I do claim that they are significantly related." If this is the result of something I did, my apologies. GT From hmarle at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Tue May 14 18:44:53 1996 From: hmarle at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Halina Marlewicz) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 18:44:53 +0000 Subject: Invitation for the Xth World Sanskrit Conference - 1997 , B Message-ID: <161227024523.23782.15183921881633946056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:14:46 BST > Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji > To: Members of the list > Subject: Invitation for the Xth World Sanskrit Conference - 1997 , Bangalore, > India > > Dear Indologists, > > You are cordially invited to attend the Xth World Sanskrit Conference to be held in Bangalore, Karnataka, India, early next year (3-9 January 1997). Those of you who have not received or filled in > he printed Response Form may kindly use the Electronic Response Form appended below and email it to us. > > For your information, the following is the updated list of sections for which paper proposals are invited on or before 15th May 1996. > > 1 Agamas and Tantras > 2 Art, Architecture and Archaeology > 3 Buddhist Studies > 4 Classical Sanskrit Literature > 5 Dharma Shastra and Artha Shastra > 6 Epics and Puranas > 7 Hindu Studies > 8 Jaina Studies > 9 Manuscripts and Historical Resources > 10 Modern Sanskrit Literature > 11 Music and Performing Arts > 12 Philosophies (Darshanas) > 13 Poetics and Aesthetics > 14 Sanskrit and Regional Languages > 15 Sanskrit Scientific Literature > 16 Sanskrit Medical Literature > 17 Sanskrit and the Environment > 18 Sanskrit and Computer > 19 Veda and Vedangas > 20 Vyakarana and Linguistics > > This may also be forwarded to those who are interested in attending the conference. > > We look forward for your participation. > > With kind regards > Yours sincerely > > Dr S Siddaiah > Co-ordinator > _____________________________________________________ > Secretariat > Xth World Sanskrit Conference > TARALABALU KENDRA > 3rd Main, 2nd Block, RT Nagar > BANGALORE - 560 032 > India > > Tel: +91-80-3430017 > +91-80-3332759 > Fax: +91-80-3334541 > E-mail: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet.wscx.html > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > Below is the Electronic Response Form. Please fill in appropriately and do not edit any line > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Xth WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE (3-9 January 1997) > BANGALORE, INDIA > _____________________________________________________________ > > > > ELECTRONIC RESPONSE FORM > > Code No: > _____________________________________________________________ > 1. Title (Dr/Prof) : Assistant > 2. Name : Halina > 3. Last Name : Marlewicz > 4. Male/Female : Female > 5. Position : Assistant, Lecturer > 6. Institution : Indology Department > 7. University : Jagiellonian University > _____________________________________________________________ > 8. Address :Institute of Oriental Philology > Indology Department > Jagiellonian University > al.Mickiewicza 9/11 > 31-120 CRACOW, POLAND ___________________________________________ > 9. Country :POLAND > _____________________________________________________________ > 10. Phone (Home) : 32 31 62 > 11. Phone (Office) : 33 63 77 3xt. 326, 328 > 12. Fax : --- > 13. E-mail : hmarle at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl > _____________________________________________________________ > 14. Field(s) of Study: Poetics, theories of language meaning as apllied in Sanskrit Poetics and Philosophy > > _____________________________________________________________ > 15. Check one [ x ]: > > [ x ] Yes, I intend to attend the conference. > [ ] No, I am not able to attend the conference. > [ ] Undecided, but please continue to send me more information about the conference. > _____________________________________________________________ > 16. The sections I am interested in are: > (Please check [ x ] as many sections as you wish to participate in) > > [ ] 1 Agamas and Tantras > [ ] 2 Art, Architecture and Archaeology > [ ] 3 Buddhist Studies > [ ] 4 Classical Sanskrit Literature > [ ] 5 Dharma Shastra and Artha Shastra > [ ] 6 Epics and Puranas > [ ] 7 Hindu Studies > [ ] 8 Jaina Studies > [ ] 9 Manuscripts and Historical Resources > [ ] 10 Modern Sanskrit Literature > [ ] 11 Music and Performing Arts > [ x ] 12 Philosophies (Darshanas) > [ x ] 13 Poetics and Aesthetics > [ ] 14 Sanskrit and Regional Languages > [ ] 15 Sanskrit Scientific Literature > [ ] 16 Sanskrit Medical Literature > [ ] 17 Sanskrit and the Environment > [ ] 18 Sanskrit and Computer > [ ] 19 Veda and Vedangas > [ ] 20 Vyakarana and Linguistics > > _____________________________________________________________ > 17. I intend to present my paper in the Section: > 12 (Darshanas) or 13 (Poetics) > > _____________________________________________________________ > 18. The title of my paper is: > I have not decided yet. If I present a paper on Philosophy, a tentative title would be "Vatsya Varadaguru on understanding mahavakyas. A controversy between Advaita nad Visistadvaita Vedanta." But I may decide to present a paper on Skt Poetics > I beg for the patience of the organizers! > _____________________________________________________________ > 19. I suggest that information about this conference be sent to the > following persons (Please give their full address/E-mail): > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Thank you! > > From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Tue May 14 23:19:23 1996 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 19:19:23 -0400 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024532.23782.16340856648910274984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In the Kaa"sysapasa.mhitaa, a medical text, there is a list of birds which >includes the names "bholantikaa" and "tailapaayin". I have an idea that >the latter may be a bat or flying fox, rather than a bird, though I am not >sure. But I have so far not been able to find either of these bird names >in the dictionaries. > >Any suggestions? > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk In his commentary on VAkyapdaIya 2.37 (vAkyeSv arthAntaragateH ...) PuNyarAja gives tailapAyikA as an example of a term which involves rUDhi in that the vigrahavAkya utterance (tailam pibati) used to give its analysis has a sense different from that of the derivate. Earlier, in his NyAsa on KAzikA 6.3.2 (Varanasi ed. V.196), Jinendrabuddhi had used the same example for this purpose. In his AmbAkartrI commentary, RaghunAtha Sharma (vol. II. p. 84 of the *1st* ed.) remarks that tailapAyikA refers to a particular *insect* (kITavizeSa), called telcaT in Bhojpuri. George Cardona From AmitaSarin at aol.com Wed May 15 00:17:24 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 20:17:24 -0400 Subject: Land as female Message-ID: <161227024536.23782.3174330049463865346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Peter Claus' posting: "I began to wonder if indeed land WAS regarded as essentially female. . . " I am citing below the entry on Sita in Stutleys' Dictionary of Hinduism. Sita. The furrow personified as a goddess and worshipped as the deity presiding over agriculture. She is mentioned in a hymn (RV., IV.57) addressed to the lord of the fields (Ksetrapati) and to other divinities associated with agriculture. Hence, at the beginning of each sowing season, twelve furrows (representing the months of the year) were ritually ploughed by the king or chieftan in the first field. As the repository of the seed, furrows were regarded as the earth's female generative organs. Sita, Rama's wife, is supposed to have sprung from a furrow during the ritual ploughing by her father, King Janaka. Regards, Amita Sarin From efb3 at columbia.edu Wed May 15 01:11:13 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 21:11:13 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024537.23782.12906954530623018701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 9 May 1996, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote > > ps. While on the topic of Alexander and Greek references to India, > have there been further developments in the Sandrocottus = > Chandragupta Maurya identification? There have been some recent > attempts by revisionist historians in India to suggest that > Sandrocottus is not the Maurya king, but the Gupta one. Is there a > response to this from more objective historians? > The principal obstacles to this new identification (although it does accord exactly with Puranic narrative) are the Ashokan pillars. One of these (R.E.XIII) mentions five Near Eastern kings whose reigns overlapped in the 3rd cent. BCE. These would seem to anchor the date of Ashoka. Chandragupta Maurya is the grandfather of Ashoka, so he cannot be moved far temporally from the above date (The Puranas would situate him in the 15th cent BCE). Alexander invaded in 326 BCE, was succeeded by Seleucus Nicator whose ambassador, Megasthenes, mentions Sandrocottus. Megasthenes would have been in India circa 302 BCE So the case for Sandrocottus being Chandragupta Maurya is difficult to get around. > > Otherwise the 'revisionist' version makes intriguing reading in places, because there are serious problems with the reconstruction of this period of history. The best, and most easily available presentation challenging the Sandrocottus = Chandragupta Maurya equation is K.D. Sethna's 'Ancient India in a New Light' Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1989 (but these are not, actually, recent attempts and I have the biblio. of almost everyone who has preceded him in this historical reconsideration, if of any use). At the moment this issue is simmering on a backburner as the 'Aryan Invasion' debate rages in India. Edwin Bryant. From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 15 02:36:37 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 22:36:37 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024541.23782.887173207240354202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No - Chandragupta Maurya -> Bindusara -> Ashoka -> forgettable guy who was replaced in a palace coup by his minister/senapati. Several hundred years later, Chandragupta (of the Gupta dynasty) -> Samudragupta -> [Ramagupta - murdered by] Chandragupta II (Vikramaditya - killed in battle by the Satavahana Emperor) -> .... -> Skandagupta who was the last ruler to stand against the Huns. We don't know much beyond their names - but at least that much we know clearly. Kishore At 03:27 AM 05/15/1996 BST, you wrote: >I was under the impression that Chandragupta Maurya's grandson was the >Vikramaditya Maurya, also sometimes referred to as Chandragupta >Vikramaditya. May someone more knowledgable in the list can comment. Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 15 02:47:40 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Tue, 14 May 96 22:47:40 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024543.23782.15006841738883371794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:20 AM 05/15/1996 BST, Edwin Bryant wrote: > The best, and most easily available presentation challenging >the Sandrocottus = Chandragupta Maurya equation is K.D. Sethna's 'Ancient >India in a New Light' Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1989 (but these are not, >actually, recent attempts and I have the biblio. of almost everyone who >has preceded him in this historical reconsideration, if of any use). > >At the moment this issue is simmering on a backburner as the 'Aryan >Invasion' debate rages in India. I found Sethna's arguments convincing including his identification of the 5 near-eastern kings - not having a degree in archaeology, history, or indology I don't know if they stand up to rigorous scrutiny. I thought he addressed the Aryan issue, Dionysus as Shiva, the dating of the Buddha, Panini - generally the whole of ancient indian history (he retained the relative order and time differences of accepted events/figures but pushed the anchor back a few hundred years, with the exception of the Aryans/Indus Valley). It's been a couple years since I looked at the book, so perhaps I'm mistaken. Kishore kishore at mail.utexas.edu Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Wed May 15 05:56:33 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 06:56:33 +0100 Subject: Gymnosophists etc. Message-ID: <161227024544.23782.12338538718175965780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Richards writes: >I was under the impression that it was generally agreed that the idea of >transmigration came into Greek (particularly Pythagorean) thought via >the Orphics, and that they, in turn had picked it up from Persian >sources. Bidez certainly seems to think so, but I am not too sure on >what evidence. Pheracydes is early sixth century i.e. before Cyrus the Great's conquest of Lydia and Babylonia. Persian influence is not plausible at this early date. Also, we have very little reliable evidence as to Persian thought in this period. A pity, really, because if we did, then it would be a natural source for some of the ideas found in both Greece and India. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Wed May 15 06:41:50 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 07:41:50 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024546.23782.3950267601306902165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narahari Achar writes: >Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that there are many people who believe >(like David Pingree) that many fundamental ideas of astronomy in India were >borrowed from out side. Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek influence. >Neugebauer in his monumental work on the history of >ancient astronomy devotes all of 1 and 1/4 pages (in 1300 hundred pages) to >Indian Astronomy, and proclaims, "it is fair to say....... none of the other >civilizations of antiquity (other than the Greek!) ..have ever reached an >independent level of scientific thought". It is possible to argue this, but it does depend to a considerable extent on a particular definition of what you mean by 'scientific' thought. I wouldn't myself agree with this, in view of the more recent evidence from Babylonia. I wonder if the reason people sometimes find this offensive is the appropriation of the Greeks as somehow 'European'. In fact it is clear that they are just as much ancestors of the thought of the Islamic world as of Christian Europe. Similarly, they are simply one of the several ancestors of Indian culture today. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed May 15 15:49:52 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 08:49:52 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Term for opium query (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024557.23782.5657769284211517619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues: I forward herewith a query to H-ASIA which I think might also find responses on the Indology list. Frank Conlon ---------- Forwarded message ---------- H-ASIA May 15, 1996 Query on term for opium **************************************************************************** From: Richard Barz I have an etymological problem that I need help with. There is a Hindi word, chandukhana (caNDuukhaanaa), which means "a place where opium is used", the word chandu (the suffix "khana" means 'house') has no likely Hindi root. Since one Hindi-English dictionary defines chandu as "a mixed preparation of opium (of Chinese type) for smoking", could chandu be a borrowing from Chinese? Does anyone know of such a word with the meaning of opium or some type of opium? Richard Barz Australian National University =========================================================================== From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed May 15 08:31:40 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 09:31:40 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024548.23782.7736287273448772999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >>Narahari Achar writes: >>Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that there are many people who believe >>(like David Pingree) that many fundamental ideas of astronomy in India were >>borrowed from out side. > L.S.Cousins writes: >Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant >which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for >most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek >influence. The verses of the vedas have to be recited at specific times, dates and proper conjunctions of the grahas for them to be most effective. This is done even nowadays. Are you saying that the period of major Greek influence occured before the R^igveda was composed (not the time of writing it down), say? Was there a Greek astrology as developed as that in India? The tantrikas determine the timing of their various aasanas/puujaas etc in a similar fashion. What do the tankrika paNDitas have to say about how timing is determined in the various ceremonies? Even if all the ideas were borrowed from the Greeks, it still does not answer my original question. Why do people not look into the whole business of dating texts etc using astronomy when records of eclipses must be extant for a long period of time? It is an 'objective' way to go about dating and one even gets an idea of the error inherent in the method. Of course, the views held by Pingree et al might be just a cultural bias. What do the knowledgeable people have to say on this? I have always found it very hard to understand how non mathematical and physical disciplines function. However, they are fascinating! :-) bye, Girish Beeharry From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Wed May 15 02:08:10 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 10:08:10 +0800 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024539.23782.7043328195878107772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was under the impression that Chandragupta Maurya's grandson was the Vikramaditya Maurya, also sometimes referred to as Chandragupta Vikramaditya. May someone more knowledgable in the list can comment. Regards....Devadas At 02:15 AM 5/15/96 BST, you wrote: >On Thu, 9 May 1996, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote Deleted >3rd cent. BCE. These would seem to anchor the date of Ashoka. Chandragupta >Maurya is the grandfather of Ashoka, so he cannot be moved far temporally >from the above date (The Puranas would situate him in the 15th cent BCE). Deleted > >Edwin Bryant. > > > From JB.Tuemmers at Uni-Koeln.DE Wed May 15 08:36:34 1996 From: JB.Tuemmers at Uni-Koeln.DE (Johannes B Tuemmers) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 10:36:34 +0200 Subject: Address of Alan Wallace? Message-ID: <161227024550.23782.1598096153198440683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings to everyone, is there anybody who knows the e-mail address of Allan Wallace? He is doing tibetan studies and I have some questions to ask hin. Any help is apprechiated! Thanks a lot, all best wishes, -Johannes B. Tuemmers MA - e-mail: jb.tuemmers at uni-koeln.de From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed May 15 14:42:42 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 10:42:42 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024555.23782.17411147354896367452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, we do know some things clearly, but that there was a Ramagupta of the Gupta dynasty, much less that he was killed by his successor, we do NOT know. If I ever get around to finishing it I have written a piece on the historiography of the ramagupta legend, which shows well the influences of ideology on the study of history. What is history and what is legend is, in this case especially, very hard to distingish. Cheers, jonathan From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Wed May 15 09:50:24 1996 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 11:50:24 +0200 Subject: neohinduistic gurus Message-ID: <161227024552.23782.13545033599198307331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, It seems to me there is a tendency among neohinduistic gurus not to mention their own family background, jati their parents belong to. I think people in the West don't know much about jati connections of great contemporary gurus because neither them nor gurus themselves who reject importance of jati are interested in the subject. However, it seems highly probable that Indian people are generally more sensitive to the problem of the family background could give me information about the social place of parents of gurus who deny the importance of jati division of society. So, please, could anybody give me any info on at least varnas of parents of gurus? Thanking in advance Leslaw Borowski From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Wed May 15 18:04:32 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 12:04:32 -0600 Subject: neohinduistic gurus Message-ID: <161227024559.23782.8918419837139122954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leslaw Borowski wrote: > >Dear List Members, >It seems to me there is a tendency among neohinduistic gurus not to mention >their own family background, jati their parents belong to. I think people in >the West don't know much about jati connections of great contemporary gurus >because neither them nor gurus themselves who reject importance of jati are >interested in the subject. However, it seems highly probable that Indian people are >generally more sensitive to the problem of the family background could give >me information about the social place of parents of gurus who deny the >importance of jati division of society. So, please, could anybody give me >any info on at least varnas of parents of gurus? > > > There has always been a taboo against enquiring the origins of gurus,neo or otherwise. "nadI mUla",river source, "r^shhI mUla", the origin of a sage, and "guru mUla",the origin of guru, are the three origins never to ask questions about.- Narahari Achar From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 15 17:33:26 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 13:33:26 -0400 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024561.23782.6993481656904174717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those on the list with a good memory may recall that I got some flak from Mr. K.R.Norman of the Pali Text Society in 1993 about an announcemnt I had made on behalf of the Dhammakaya Foundation of Thailand, regarding their then impending release of their -- with true Karuna -- FREE CD-ROM of the entire Pali Canon based on the Pali Text Society`s editions. After that, process had been stalled until April 22, 1996. I am happy to be able to report now that the two parties have resolved their differences about any perceived copyright issues and that the CD will be issued this summer, however, NOT FREE but for $150. I quote from their announcement: ``Prof. K.R.Norman travelled to Thailand to sign a memorandum of understanding with the Foundation on behalf of the PTS on the 22 April 1996. We expect to release version 1.0 of the database with supporting driver and search program compatible with MS-DOS in early June 1996. ... Despite the original intention of the Dhammakaya Foundation to distribute the Pali Tipitaka free of charge, as announced in our e-mail transmission of 14 September 1993, the logistics of the distribution of this database have proved sensative, and one of the conditions demanded by the Pali Text Society of having the database distributed at all is that a minimal charge be made for the disk. The Dhammakaya Foundation is now accepting orders for version 1.0 of the CD-ROM at the price of US$ 150.00. Please complete the order form below and send it together with payment to the address below. Checques and postal orders should be made payable to the ``DHAMMAKAYA FOUNDATION``. Order to: Mr. Nicholas Woods Dhammakaya Foundation: International Department Khlong Luang, Patumthani Thailand 12120 `` --ity vaartam -- If you send an email message regarding this to my account it will be passed on to the Dhammakaya Foundation by snail mail. You may, of course, do so yourself as well. You may also ask me for the full announcement. Michael Witzel Wales Professor of Sanskrit Harvard University 617 495 3295 witzel at husc3.harvard.edu ----------cut here----------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PALITEXT CD-ROM (ver.1.0) Order Form Full Name (underline surname) ----------------------------------------------- Home Address -------------------------Work Address ------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Telephone ------------------------------ Telephone--------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Order to: Mr. Nicholas Woods, Dhammakaya Foundation: International Department, Khlong Luang, Patumthani Thailand 12120 `` From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu Wed May 15 20:38:52 1996 From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 13:38:52 -0700 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024571.23782.14925011238686988352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please note that there is another Pali Canon on CD-ROM: Through the American Academy of Religion one can purchase the Siam Edition of the Buddhist Pali Canon, done at Mahidol University, Thailand. Available in DOS format, can be used in Apple with SoftWindows, includes search software. Text in romanized Pali. $299. Contact: AAR Electronic Publications P.O. Box 15399 Atlanta, GA 30333-0399 fax = 404-727-2348. Bruce M. Sullivan Northern Arizona University From kghosh at ceco.ceco.com Wed May 15 18:39:01 1996 From: kghosh at ceco.ceco.com (kghosh at ceco.ceco.com) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 13:39:01 -0500 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024565.23782.1754707739329784653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe Mr. Devadas is confusing the Maurya dynasty with the Gupta dynasty. The Gupta dynasty had a ruler by the name of Chandra Gupta. His son was Samudra Gupta and his grandson was Vikramaditya. The Maurya dynasty on the other hand had its founder as Chandragupta Maurya, whose son was Bindusara and grandson Ashoka. The Maurya dynasty predated the Guptas significantly. Thank you. Kanchan Ghosh From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Wed May 15 18:32:24 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:32:24 -0400 Subject: neohinduistic gurus Message-ID: <161227024563.23782.7915610897857962647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could Leslaw Borowski indicate the names of some contemporary gurus about whom jati information is sought? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed May 15 20:31:17 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 15:31:17 -0500 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024569.23782.2292120319961032345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5/15/96 Q: Westerners Taking Away Manuscripts (19th century) ****************************************************** There is a popular story current in many parts of India. As a child, I have heard that Europeans took many Sanskrit manuscripts from Tanjore Sarasvathi Mahal and that the knowledge embedded in them led to the development of lifesaving medicines, even aeroplanes! Last weekend, the priest at Meenakshi temple, Houston told me: "In Mysore, on the very week when Krishnaraja Wodayar's royal wedding tookplace, a manuscript library housed under tiled roof went up in flames. Two Germans who were there for years were not found later. They took away the atharvaNaveda with lot of yantra (machines) making plus many more." I recognize the anticolonial, nationalist undertone in this narration and the Indian concept that all knowledge is in Vedas and nothing new can be found. I would very much like to hear any other variants of this folklore. Any written accounts?? Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed May 15 19:45:26 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 15:45:26 -0400 Subject: Bizot query Message-ID: <161227024567.23782.10492842478808141687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know: a) whether Francois BIZOT has an email or snailmail address? b) whether it is possible to get a copy of a paper he delivered at the 10th International Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies (Pari s, July 1991) on " The obscure 'Yogavacara's manual' edited by T. W. Rhys Davids in 1896" I understand Bizot thinks this text is a Khmer composition, and wish I had more details. Thanks for any help, jonathan From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu May 16 00:02:32 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:02:32 -0700 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024577.23782.10110771558657561373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan wrote: > Last weekend, the priest at Meenakshi temple, Houston told > me: "In Mysore, on the very week when Krishnaraja Wodayar's > royal wedding tookplace, a manuscript library housed under tiled roof > went up in flames. Two Germans who were there for years > were not found later. They took away the atharvaNaveda with lot of > yantra (machines) making plus many more." Agehananda Bharati recounts somewhere that an Indian army officer once claimed that Argentina got its name because Arjuna, the Pandava, conquered South America! Mokshamula Bhatta and Pala Devasena, those ubiquitous Germans, are usually "credited" with taking away Vedic knowledge from India. I don't think there are any written accounts though, if you discount things written by P. N. Oak and others of his ilk. S. Vidyasankar From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed May 15 22:30:41 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 18:30:41 -0400 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024572.23782.3821796771486980880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since people are mentioning this, let us not forget: There is a FREE version of all canonical Pali texts, with a few extra-canonical things too, posted on several different webs -- perhaps most conveniently, to note here, on Indology's. Is there some reason we should be considering spending alot of money for materials we already have? (I have not used the data extensively yet, but I have not noticed any problems, save the sometimes unweildy file size). From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Wed May 15 23:50:35 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 19:50:35 -0400 Subject: Email address? Message-ID: <161227024575.23782.5995835011782145590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the email address of: David Haberman at University of California, Santa Barbara? Richard Davis at Yale Stuart Blackburn at SOAS Thanks in advance. Sushil. From eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 16 02:53:33 1996 From: eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (edeltraud harzer clear) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 21:53:33 -0500 Subject: Email address? Message-ID: <161227024579.23782.5497804463389870752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Haberman is at Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana. His e-mail address is dhaberma at ucs.indiana.edu Have a nice day. E.Harzer Clear, Indiana University, Bloomington. From eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 16 03:01:44 1996 From: eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (edeltraud harzer clear) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 22:01:44 -0500 Subject: Address of Alan Wallace? Message-ID: <161227024582.23782.9235091806637643304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The e-mail address of B.Alan Wallace is alan at leland.stanford.edu Have a good day. E. Harzer Clear Indiana University, Bloomington. From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Thu May 16 03:45:59 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 23:45:59 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024584.23782.15058280978095816705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:09 PM 05/15/1996 BST, you wrote: >Well, we do know some things clearly, but that there was a Ramagupta of the >Gupta dynasty, much less that he was killed by his successor, we do NOT know. >If I ever get around to finishing it I have written a piece on the >historiography of the ramagupta legend, which shows well the influences of >ideology on the study of history. What is history and what is legend is, in >this case especially, very hard to distingish. Until you publish this piece, can we take it that Ramagupta was not a figment of the imagination, but a historical figure (i.e., no one else has established/argued that he was a legend)? I was not aware that we knew any details about the kings and queens before c.1000 (and c. 1500 for tamil nadu), beyond their names, victories, defeats, and literary accounts of their prowess. Kishore Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Thu May 16 03:55:35 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Wed, 15 May 96 23:55:35 -0400 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024586.23782.11908375172396117421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:23 AM 05/16/1996 BST, you wrote: >Agehananda Bharati recounts somewhere that an Indian army officer >once claimed that Argentina got its name because Arjuna, the >Pandava, conquered South America! I remember leafing through a book that used etymology to make similar claims about the incas(?) - the author started with "machu" pichu which is the city of steps (machu in tamil refers to steps) and went through a whole bunch of words and grammar. I thought this was more wishful thinking than anything else - but you never know:-) I later came across someone claiming that japanese/korean and tamil were related. Kishore Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu May 16 14:37:28 1996 From: zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu (leonard zwilling) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 08:37:28 -0600 Subject: Request for information Message-ID: <161227024607.23782.9607186368078099573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone direct me to any work which has been done on invective or verbal abuse in sanskrit or prakrit literature, or discussions of those subjects in the literatures themselves? In his commentary to the vinayapiTaka Buddhaghosa quots from an akkosaniddesa, so it appears that such treatments were not entirely unknown. Needless to say the study of maledicta can provide important social and cultural information. Thanks in advance. Leonard Zwilling From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu May 16 15:01:25 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 09:01:25 -0600 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024604.23782.11411253075751586493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins writes: >Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant >which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for >most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek >influence. So is "Samrata-Siddhanta", an 18th century translation of Ptolemy. Can one conclude that no astronomy existed in India prior to the 18th century? Astronomy (and of course astrology) has been a part of Indian society since the vedic times. It has been a living tradition which has existed continuously all through the ages. The concepts of Nakshtras, tithis, rasis, planets, precession of the equinoxes,the days can all be found in the vedas and is certainly older than the vedas. There has been a continuous stream of astronomers and their works throught the ages,contributing to the pool of knowledge. VedAnga jyotisha,sUrya prajnApti, AryabhatIya,Pancha siddhAntika,lIlAvati,have incorporated the sidereal astronomy of the vedas. One can not simply discount the earlier references quoted in the SiddhantAs, because they are not available now and attribute every thing to the Greeks. > > >I wonder if the reason people sometimes find this offensive is the >appropriation of the Greeks as somehow 'European'. > and that every thing else is inferior. In the end it does not really matter who discovered what, because those who really discover truth are "rishis", even if they are "yavana". Time and space are of not much consequence. But, modern scholarship is hung up on historic dates, and if it can not find information regarding dates, it becomes very jittery. All kinds of theories are spun, arguments in favor of one or the other of these theories are hurled. All that effort can be spent more usefully in understanding the ideas.- Narahari Achar > > > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu May 16 10:06:04 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:06:04 +0000 Subject: H-ASIA: Term for opium query (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024590.23782.2107850781821347521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 15 May 1996, Frank Conlon wrote: > Query on term for opium > **************************************************************************** > From: Richard Barz > > I have an etymological problem that I need help with. There is a Hindi > word, chandukhana (caNDuukhaanaa), which means "a place where opium is > used", the word chandu (the suffix "khana" means 'house') has no likely > Hindi root. Since one Hindi-English dictionary defines chandu as "a mixed > preparation of opium (of Chinese type) for smoking", could chandu be a > borrowing from Chinese? Does anyone know of such a word with the meaning > of opium or some type of opium? The botanical reference books available to me (Nadkarni, Kirtikar & Basu) do not list Chandu[khana] amongst the many names for the several species of Opium. -- Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu May 16 10:13:39 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:13:39 +0000 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024592.23782.14659973690805194253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 15 May 1996, Ganesan wrote: > I would very much like to hear > any other variants of this folklore. Any written accounts?? With many others, I am sure, I have several times heard the tale that the German acquisition of the vedas (or veda manuscripts) from India was the reason for the German "economic miracle". I have generally supposed that this story is based on the fact that Max Muller -- often perceived as a German -- was the first editor of the RV. -- Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu May 16 10:29:27 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:29:27 +0000 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024594.23782.6439685775401371368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 15 May 1996 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote: > Is there some reason we should be considering spending alot of money for > materials we already have? (I have not used the data extensively yet, but I > have not noticed any problems, save the sometimes unweildy file size). Absolutely none! I think the people publishing CDROM versions for money have failed dramatically to evaluate the publishing situation correctly. With a free version of the text available, the CDROM versions can compete on only two grounds, as far as I can see 1/ A CDROM may be more convenient than having to make space on a hard disk; 2/ Added value in the form of support software for the display of fonts, grammatical analysis of Pali, lemmatization, indexing, links to images of MSS, illustrations, multimedia presentation of the social and religious background to text production, etc. etc. Proposition 1/ is hard to argue, since people will in any case probably want to copy the data from CDROM to disk in order to benefit from the higher data access speeds of hard disk technology. But this aside, there is no commercial validity in putting CDROM in head-on competition with hard disk on the grounds of storage efficiency or economy. The per-megabyte cost of disk storage is now lower than CDROM, especially if one takes into account such technology as Iomega's Zip drives, for example (ca. 15 pence per megabyte or less). Neither of the CDROM vendors seems to have made a serious effort towards proposition 2/, which is a pity since the opportunity here for intellectual creativitiy and service to scholarship is so very great. These publishers need to wake up! -- Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu May 16 10:36:35 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:36:35 +0000 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024596.23782.9188703499956989372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the way, such tales of the Oriental pre-cursors of European achievement are ubiquitous in other countries, not just India. There is a lovely middle-eastern story that I have heard from Beirut about a late 15th century arab child-poet called Sheikh Zubeir. The young Zubeir composed a set of poetic dramas of such piercing beauty that he was kidnapped by some English traders who brought him up in London and made him forget his origins, changing his name to Shakespeare. -- Dominik Wujastyk From pdb1 at columbia.edu Thu May 16 14:49:27 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:49:27 -0400 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024605.23782.2519100233424905697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 16 May 1996, Kishore Krshna wrote: > >Agehananda Bharati recounts somewhere that an Indian army officer > >once claimed that Argentina got its name because Arjuna, the > >Pandava, conquered South America! > > I remember leafing through a book that used etymology to make similar > claims about the incas(?) - the author started with "machu" pichu which > is the city of steps (machu in tamil refers to steps) and went through > a whole bunch of words and grammar. I thought this was more wishful thinking > than anything else - but you never know:-) Those interested in or amused by this sort of linguistic analysis should consult the volumes _Santhali: the base of world languages_ and _Santhali: a universal heritage_, by one Parimala Candra Mitra, who has the ability to take any name, word, or even complete text in any language in the world and break it down into a string of meaningful Santali roots. Well, the roots I take it are meaningful, but their coherence once strung together is in the eye of the beholder... Rather like the "French" in the old book _Mots d'heure, gousses, rames_ in which common English nursery rhymes were respelled as if they were French: the words were real, the sentences grammatical, but the meaning of the whole... For example, "Hickory dickory dock" turned into "Et qui rit des cur'es d'oc?" ("And who laughs at the priests of the South of France?") and "Hot cross buns" was "H^ate! carosse bonzes!" ("Hurry, convey the Buddhist priests in a wagon!") I strongly suspect that with a bit of effort you can turn _anything_ into _any_ other language you want to. There was a fellow back in the 19th century who "discovered" that Jesus' last words on the cross, "Eli Eli lama sabachthani," were not Aramaic at all, but Mayan, and meant "Now, now, sinking, ink, over my nose." :-) -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From gat4 at columbia.edu Thu May 16 15:20:46 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:20:46 -0400 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024609.23782.14333431496284785703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Catarchic" means "connected with (determining the proper time for) beginning an action." "Catarchic Astrology" (referring to what in Sanskrit is called "muhuurta") is the title and topic of Chapter 6 in David Pingree's _Jyotihsastra: Astral and Mathematical Literature_, which is Volume 6, Fascicle 4 in Gonda's _History of Indian Literature_ (Wiesbaden 1981). From gat4 at columbia.edu Thu May 16 15:42:48 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:42:48 -0400 Subject: H-ASIA: Term for opium query (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024610.23782.16008166574849944115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On chandu: in Marathi and Gujarati the corresponding word is caNDol or caNDul. M. B. Belsare in _An Etymological Gujarati-English Dictionary_ refers the latter word to Gujarati candrus, corresponding to Hindi candras. This is from Persian sandaros or Arabic sandaruus, euqivalent to Greek sandarake, whence (via Latin) English sandarac, the name of a resin or gum used for its smoke and as a source of pounce and varnish (it has other meanings as well). As with many articles of ancient trade, the ultimate origin of the name is unclear. From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Thu May 16 15:47:24 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:47:24 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024612.23782.1678374153304015320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To be as brief as possible: There was *someone* named Ramagupta, whose name is recorded on coins and a few inscriptions. The connection of this person with the (that is, *the*) Guptas is uncertain. So, it depends on what you mean by the "historicity of Ramagupta." Yes, there was someone of that name, no question. Who was he? We don't know. -- Further discussion (by me) on this topic will have to wait until I have a chance to pick up the study again. (But I confess, I am encouraged by the apparent interest in the question.) Jonathan From carolyn-b-brown at uiowa.edu Thu May 16 17:56:40 1996 From: carolyn-b-brown at uiowa.edu (carolyn-b-brown at uiowa.edu) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:56:40 -0600 Subject: H-ASIA: Term for opium query (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024617.23782.3943634374439235757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Colleagues: > >I forward herewith a query to H-ASIA which I think might also find >responses on the Indology list. > >Frank Conlon > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > H-ASIA > May 15, 1996 > >Query on term for opium >**************************************************************************** >From: Richard Barz > >I have an etymological problem that I need help with. There is a Hindi >word, chandukhana (caNDuukhaanaa), which means "a place where opium is >used", the word chandu (the suffix "khana" means 'house') has no likely >Hindi root. Since one Hindi-English dictionary defines chandu as "a mixed >preparation of opium (of Chinese type) for smoking", could chandu be a >borrowing from Chinese? Does anyone know of such a word with the meaning >of opium or some type of opium? > > >Richard Barz >Australian National University > >=========================================================================== You might want to explore other Indian languages before assuming that chandu must be a borrowing from Chinese (a quick but inexpert dictionary search suggests it isn't). Although this doesn't in itself get you nearer to determining the etymologtical root, in Bengali chantu (caNtu) is an intoxicating preparation made from opium; opium itself is called aphim (aaphim). Carolyn Brown International Writing Program University of Iowa From mgansten at sbbs.se Thu May 16 10:10:24 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 12:10:24 +0200 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024598.23782.14273973127085617475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >A student at our institute wants to study jyoti.h'saastra and came across >the expression "catarchic astrology". Would any of the distinguished >list-members know what it means? We could't find this expression in any >available dictionary. No more than a guess: could it perhaps be a misspelling of "catachric"? I haven't seen this term either, but it is not inconceivable that it could be related to "catachresis", i.e., [improper] blending -- in this connection perhaps of astrological systems. Maybe someone else knows more, or has a more plausible theory? And perhaps it would help to know where this expression is met with? Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se >?From D-JOHN4 at vm1.spcs.umn.edu 16 96 May CDT 07:10:28 Date: 16 May 96 07:10:28 CDT From: Donald C Johnson Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts While there is no doubt that some manuscripts left India for western libraries one also should remember that the Government of India passed a law in 1868 setting aside funds each year to preserve and to collect Sanskrit manuscripts. The collected manuscripts were to remain in India to strengthen Sanskrit scholarship there. The result of this government legislation can be seen in such noted research centers in India as the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (the Bombay Government collection), the Madras Government Oriental Manuscripts Library, and a great strengthening of the Asiatic Society of Bengal library. Specifically regarding the Tanjore Collection, Georg Buhler, Educational Inspector for the Northern District of Bombay Presidency, was asked by the Government of India about the value and importance of the Tanjore Collection since it was going through a period of neglect and decline. Buhler suggested that the Government of India purchase the library to prevent further decline. Alas the Government of India did not follow his recommendation. From bandi at cs.umn.edu Thu May 16 17:30:36 1996 From: bandi at cs.umn.edu (VB) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 12:30:36 -0500 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024615.23782.16864164158935040782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > > By the way, such tales of the Oriental pre-cursors of European achievement > are ubiquitous in other countries, not just India. There is a lovely > middle-eastern story that I have heard from Beirut about a late 15th > century arab child-poet called Sheikh Zubeir. The young Zubeir composed a > set of poetic dramas of such piercing beauty that he was kidnapped by some > English traders who brought him up in London and made him forget his > origins, changing his name to Shakespeare. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Similar tale told by a tamil friend of mine: only here, his original name is Sheshappa Iyer. :) Another one: Champagne was originally made in india under the name Champaagni. -vijay > > From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Thu May 16 11:01:02 1996 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:01:02 +0200 Subject: Bizot query Message-ID: <161227024648.23782.7005292195645617187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:40 15/05/1996 BST, you wrote: >Does anyone know: > >a) whether Francois BIZOT has an email or snailmail address? > He has recently acquired that facility but I am not sure he uses it regularly (E-mail: bizot at isp.fr ) I think it is better to use snailmail or Fax Fran?ois Bizot 37, rue de Chazelles F-75O17 PARIS TEL. (33) (1) 43 80 00 61 FAX (33) (1) 40 53 89 67 I believe he is currently in Paris But beware that he spends half of his time in Vientiane (LAOS) at the EFEO Center Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient BP 3248 Rue Mahosot Vientiane RDP LAOS TEL. (856) 21 21 52 52 FAX (856) 21 21 74 19 -- Jean-Luc Chevillard CNRS -- Univ. Paris7 (former member of EFEO, India) >b) whether it is possible to get a copy of a paper he delivered at the 10th >International Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies >(Pari >s, July 1991) on " The obscure 'Yogavacara's manual' edited by T. W. Rhys >Davids in 1896" > >I understand Bizot thinks this text is a Khmer composition, and wish I had >more details. > >Thanks for any help, > >jonathan > > > From Leofacq at msn.com Thu May 16 13:49:58 1996 From: Leofacq at msn.com (Leo Facq) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:49:58 +0000 Subject: French translation of Shankara's Giitaabhaa.sya Message-ID: <161227024601.23782.6549573210137203671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Would anyone be in possession of the bookreferences regarding a French translation of the Giitaabhaa.sya of Shankara? We are in urgent need of such reference in view of educational purposes. Yours faithfully, Leofacq at msn.com From eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 16 19:25:49 1996 From: eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (edeltraud harzer clear) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 14:25:49 -0500 Subject: FW: A Bookreference Message-ID: <161227024625.23782.2662485569669473708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Leo, the full title is DEVAVAA.NIPRAVEZIKAA. An Introduction to the Sanskrit Language. (2nd edition, revised) Robert Goldman and Sally Sutherland (his wife) published by Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies 1987. Available from this center=same name + Publications Program, 2223 Fulton St., 3rd Floor University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA. Good luck, Edeltraud Harzer Clear, Indiana University, Bloomington,USA. > > > ---------- > From: Leo > Sent: woensdag 1 mei 1996 17:41 > To: 'indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk' > Subject: A Bookreference > > Dear Indologists, > > I'm currently looking for the following book "Devavaa.niipravezikaa" by > Goldman and (second name unknown to me). > Could anyone give me full references on this book, which I need to acquire > ASAP. Please list publisher , ISN number (if available) and possibly a > bookshop I can order it from, preferably in Europe > > Many Thanks ahead, > Leo Facq > leofacq at msn.com > > From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu May 16 18:30:16 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 14:30:16 -0400 Subject: Reference question (Was: Filliozat) Message-ID: <161227024618.23782.15207242772042525663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That Ashoka was Chandragupta Maurya's grandson can be verified from any basic history book on ancient India (ie. Romila Thappar's "HIstory of India", vol 1 pp. 71-72). Edwin Bryant. On Wed, 15 May 1996, Das Menon wrote: > I was under the impression that Chandragupta Maurya's grandson was the > Vikramaditya Maurya, also sometimes referred to as Chandragupta > Vikramaditya. May someone more knowledgable in the list can comment. > > Regards....Devadas > > At 02:15 AM 5/15/96 BST, you wrote: > >On Thu, 9 May 1996, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote > > Deleted > > >3rd cent. BCE. These would seem to anchor the date of Ashoka. Chandragupta > >Maurya is the grandfather of Ashoka, so he cannot be moved far temporally > >from the above date (The Puranas would situate him in the 15th cent BCE). > > Deleted > > > >Edwin Bryant. > > > > > > > > > > From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Thu May 16 22:02:13 1996 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 15:02:13 -0700 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024630.23782.12409221125021829076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry writes: > > This again brings the matter back to my original query; have people in > Indological studies done work on dating using astronomy? If not, can > someone please tell me whether work is currently being done in this area? > Yes, many works have been written which purport to date texts and events based on astronomy. The ones that I have read, however, are extremely far-fetched and directly contradict other evidence, including those that can be directly read in the text itself. One author went through a great deal of effort to prove through astronomical evidence (eclipses, etc.) that the Mahabharata war took place in 30,000 B.C. Other authors have argued based on internal astronomical evidence that the Ramayana took place in 2000 B.C., etc. All these works fail to take into account the fact that most of these texts, particularly the epics, were collated incrementally, and that because various authors have rather haphazardly added data concerning comets, eclipses, etc., over the evolution of the text, dating based on such a random assortment of astronomical events is all but worthless. Mani From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu May 16 22:21:20 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 16:21:20 -0600 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024628.23782.10993787344943472965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry wrote: > >This again brings the matter back to my original query; have people in >Indological studies done work on dating using astronomy? If not, can >someone please tell me whether work is currently being done in this area? > >Bye, > >Girish Beeharry > > "The astronomical code of the R^gVeda",by Subhash Kak,Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi,1994 comes to my mind. Kak also has a number of papers published on the topic in Vistas in Astronomy, Mankind Quarterly, Indian Journal of Hoistory of Science and other journals. He also gives earlier references. you might also be interested in M. Witzel's paper on the Saptarshi Mandala in the EJVS -Narahari Achar From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Thu May 16 23:37:13 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 16:37:13 -0700 Subject: Query on term for opium Message-ID: <161227024635.23782.17109591244730952400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One possibility that may be kept in mind is that ca.n.du/caNDu in ca.n.dukhaanaa might not have been meant in a direct or denotative sense. It may just mean 'ball, pill (Skt kandu, Marathi ce.n.du etc.). 'Place of the ball/pill' could have been a euphemistic way of referring to a place that was not universally respectable in the culture. Employment of deliberately imprecise or overly general words for places or institutions frowned upon in the higher strata of the society is a common linguistic phenomenon (cf. use of "(government( guest house" for a 'prison' in some parts of India). These lines receive an indirect confirmation in the message that just now appeared on my computer: carolyn-b-brown at uiowa.edu (Carolyn Brown) writes: > in Bengali chantu (caNtu) is an intoxicating preparation made from opium; opium itself is called aphim (aaphim).< ashok aklujkar Professor, Dept. of Asian Studies, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Thu May 16 20:48:15 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 16:48:15 -0400 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024627.23782.10865628519634325984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 16 May 1996, Martin Gansten wrote: > Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:27:10 BST > From: Martin Gansten > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Dating > > Narahari Achar writes: > > >But, modern scholarship is hung up on historic > >dates, and if it can not find information regarding dates, it becomes very > >jittery. All kinds of theories are spun, arguments in favor of one or the other > >of these theories are hurled. All that effort can be spent more usefully in > >understanding the ideas. > > To which I would only like to add a heartfelt: AMEN! :-) > > Martin Gansten > mgansten at sbbs.se > > AMEN! Sushil mittals at ere.umontreal.ca From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Thu May 16 08:18:28 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 17:18:28 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024588.23782.3377373947693396781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A student at our institute wants to study jyoti.h'saastra and came across the expression "catarchic astrology". Would any of the distinguished list-members know what it means? We could't find this expression in any available dictionary. TIA, From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Thu May 16 22:49:21 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 18:49:21 -0400 Subject: Hinduism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227024633.23782.9739837925162589399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Human rights violations are perpetrated in all parts of the world, and the univeral reaction to such atrocities is over-whelmingly one of horror and sadness. Yet, as Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im and his contributors attest in _Human rights in cross-cultural perspectives_ and _Human rights in Africa: cross-cultural perspectives_, our viewpoint is clouded and biased by the expectations native to our own culture. So how does Hindu culture/s view human rights issues? An analysis of human rights issues through multiple Hindu viewpoints will help us to reinterpret and reconstruct prevailing theories of human rights. In any case, references to published material on Hinduism and human rights will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Sushil Mittal mittals at ere.umontreal.ca From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu May 16 18:24:21 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 19:24:21 +0100 Subject: Metempsychosis Message-ID: <161227024613.23782.18143878158159845057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those of you who participate in this discussion might want to read the following paper: Walter H. Maurer, Foreshadowings of Transmigration in the Rgveda, in Sauhrdyamangalam, Mirja Juntunen, William L. Smith, and Carl Suneson, Eds. 1995, Association of Oriental Studies: Stockholm. p. 207-213. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu May 16 19:17:52 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 20:17:52 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024623.23782.6068862007121301500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, On Thu, 16 May 1996 ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU wrote: > Astronomy (and of course astrology) has been a part of Indian society since the > vedic times. It has been a living tradition which has existed continuously all > through the ages. The concepts of Nakshtras, tithis, rasis, planets, precession > of the equinoxes,the days can all be found in the vedas and is certainly older > than the vedas. There has been a continuous stream of astronomers and their > works throught the ages,contributing to the pool of knowledge. VedAnga > jyotisha,sUrya prajnApti, AryabhatIya,Pancha siddhAntika,lIlAvati,have > incorporated the sidereal astronomy of the vedas. One can not simply discount > the earlier references quoted in the SiddhantAs, because they are not available > now and attribute every thing to the Greeks. This supports what I said preiously. Unfortunately no one else seems to want to part with his/her knowledge on this matter! :-) > > In the end it does not really matter who discovered what, because those who > really discover truth are "rishis", even if they are "yavana". Time and space > are of not much consequence. But, modern scholarship is hung up on historic > dates, and if it can not find information regarding dates, it becomes very > jittery. All kinds of theories are spun, arguments in favor of one or the other > of these theories are hurled. All that effort can be spent more usefully in > understanding the ideas.- Narahari Achar This again brings the matter back to my original query; have people in Indological studies done work on dating using astronomy? If not, can someone please tell me whether work is currently being done in this area? Bye, Girish Beeharry From mgansten at sbbs.se Thu May 16 18:50:09 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 20:50:09 +0200 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024621.23782.8483691483623137958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Takao Hayashi wrote: >It is a kind of astrology concerning the determination of a time >appropriate for the beginning (Gr. catarche) of an action. Aha! The Sanskrit term for this branch of jyotiHs'Astra is muhUrta(s'Astra), and the more usual English rendering is "electional astrology". For anyone who may be interested, one standard work in this genre, kAlaprakAs'ikA, was published (in a reprint of a 1917 edition) in 1991 with devanagari text and English translation by Asian Educational Services, Delhi. Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From mgansten at sbbs.se Thu May 16 18:50:14 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 20:50:14 +0200 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024620.23782.5671341465876009971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narahari Achar writes: >But, modern scholarship is hung up on historic >dates, and if it can not find information regarding dates, it becomes very >jittery. All kinds of theories are spun, arguments in favor of one or the other >of these theories are hurled. All that effort can be spent more usefully in >understanding the ideas. To which I would only like to add a heartfelt: AMEN! :-) Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Thu May 16 13:33:33 1996 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 16 May 96 22:33:33 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024600.23782.7660497659486165164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >A student at our institute wants to study jyoti.h'saastra and came across >the expression "catarchic astrology". Would any of the distinguished >list-members know what it means? We could't find this expression in any >available dictionary. > >TIA, It is a kind of astrology concerning the determination of a time appropriate for the beginning (Gr. catarche) of an action. Hayashi From efb3 at columbia.edu Fri May 17 05:33:33 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 01:33:33 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227024637.23782.7779205829140907872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email add. of Mark Kenoyer, an archaeologist, who I think is at Madison, or of Jim Shaffer, an archaeologist, at Case Western Reserve University? Thanks. Edwin Bryant From zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl Fri May 17 03:33:34 1996 From: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl (zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 02:33:34 -0100 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024712.23782.17576776522199996198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Replies to msg 16 May 96: indology at liverpool.ac.uk (kishore at mail.utexas.edu) kue> Subject: Re: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts >Agehananda Bharati recounts somewhere that an Indian army officer >once claimed that Argentina got its name because Arjuna, the >Pandava, conquered South America! kue> I remember leafing through a book that used etymology to kue> make similar kue> claims about the incas(?) - the author started with "machu" kue> pichu which kue> is the city of steps (machu in tamil refers to steps) and kue> went through kue> a whole bunch of words and grammar. I thought this was more keu> wishful thinking than anything else. Do the people on INDOLOGY know about the beautiful books "Hindu America" by Chaman Lal (in English) and "America as Ruled by Karnatakans" by Venugopalacharya (in Kannada)? How's that for wishful thinking?... With regard to F. Moksamula Bhatta: is it true that he never visited India? It must have been difficult, then, to steal all that Vedic wisdom. Robert Zydenbos Internet: zydenbos at flevoland.xs4all.nl From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Fri May 17 15:09:58 1996 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 08:09:58 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227024662.23782.6521464245762943382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Browsing the web yesterday for another purpose, I found a page for the "Hindu Studies Review." The inaugural issue (Dec. 95) of this electronic journal contains, in English and Sanskrit, a "Hindu Declaration of Universal Human Rights." The journal is housed in the home page of the California State University, Chico, Religious Studies Department. The URL is: http://www.csuchico.edu/rs/hsr/ Regards, Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From JB.Tuemmers at Uni-Koeln.DE Fri May 17 07:34:14 1996 From: JB.Tuemmers at Uni-Koeln.DE (Johannes B Tuemmers) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 09:34:14 +0200 Subject: Address of Alan Wallace? Message-ID: <161227024639.23782.6597065536400273353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mrs. Harzer Clear, thank you kindly for this information! -Johannes B. Tuemmers MA - e-mail: jb.tuemmers at uni-koeln.de From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri May 17 10:16:57 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 10:16:57 +0000 Subject: Max Mueller Message-ID: <161227024640.23782.11145022167278055315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent posting Dominik Wujastyk mentioned that Max Mueller is sometimes perceived as a German. Of course, everybody knows that he is as English as George Frederic Handel - or fish and chips (see his "Chips from ..." ... can't remember the exact title). Reinhold Gruenendahl From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Fri May 17 08:47:30 1996 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 10:47:30 +0200 Subject: Hinduism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227024642.23782.10097268246058650544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:15 AM 5/17/96 BST, Sushil Mittal wrote: >how does Hindu culture/s view >human rights issues? An analysis of human rights issues through multiple >Hindu viewpoints will help us to reinterpret and reconstruct prevailing >theories of human rights. In any case, references to published material on >Hinduism and human rights will be much appreciated. At the coming "14th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies" in Copenhagen, August 21-24, one of the panels is on "Human rights: European, Asian and Universal". It is convened by Dr. Stig Toft Madsen and addresses particualarly the issue of relations between international aid and demands for human rights with regard to South Asia. Further information about this particular panel can be had from: Dr. Stig Toft Madsen, University of Lund, Institute of Sociology of Law, Bredgatan 4, S-22221 Lund, Sweden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Kind regards Mikael Aktor, Reseach Fellow, cand.phil., Department of History of Religions, University of Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Thu May 16 22:59:45 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 10:59:45 +1200 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024631.23782.1157092494568218023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >century arab child-poet called Sheikh Zubeir. The young Zubeir composed a >set of poetic dramas of such piercing beauty that he was kidnapped by some >English traders who brought him up in London and made him forget his >origins, changing his name to Shakespeare. Here I was thinking Shakespeare was originally a Smartha Brahmin from South India called Seshappa Iyer. :-) - & From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri May 17 11:16:53 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:16:53 +0000 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024645.23782.2682595978662189974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 17 May 1996, Birgit Kellner wrote: > At 20:01 96/05/16 BST, Gary Tubb wrote: [...] > >David Pingree's _Jyotihsastra: Astral and Mathematical Literature_, > >which is Volume 6, Fascicle 4 in Gonda's _History of Indian Literature_ > >(Wiesbaden 1981). > > .. which is exactly where the question came from. However, Pingree uses the > word very rarely, and in a way which renders it impossible to actually guess > the meaning. Gary and I were discussing some of David's writing at the weekend, and Gary made the very good point that David takes it for granted in much of what he writes that the reader is thoroughly familiar with the content of Otto Neugebauer's book _The Exact Sciences in Antiquity_. It's a reasonable assumption too, in my view. If someone is interested in the history of Indian astral sciences, it should go without saying that they would read generally about the history of astronomy in the ancient world, and Neugebauer's book is a classic in this area. It is also rather short (though meaty), which is always nice in a technical book. :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Fri May 17 16:44:32 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 12:44:32 -0400 Subject: New BOOK SERIES 2 Message-ID: <161227024670.23782.9990823082658686813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ANNOUNCING A NEW BOOK SERIES from World Heritage Press World Heritage Hindu Studies Series editor: Gerald James Larson The series, _World Heritage Hindu Studies_, seeks to stimulate fresh scholarship and research in the academic study of Hinduism. Its purpose is to publish significant scholarly studies on all aspects of Hindu studies. These include: the Vedas, Upanisads, Epics, Puranas, law-books, and so forth; classical, medieval and modern philosophical traditions; monastic traditions; Bhakti traditions; modern Hindu and neo-Hindu movements; and Hinduism in relation to other religious traditions both within and outside of India. We also welcome submissions on methodological issues in the study of Hinduism. We invite submissions of both the most traditional scholarship and the most daring current modes of inquiry. Gerald J. Larson India Studies Sycamore Hall 230 Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405, USA Telephone: (812) 855-5798 Telefax: (812) 855-4687 Email: glarson at indiana.edu ------------------------------------------------- World Heritage Press 1270 St-Jean St-Hyacinthe, Quebec Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 Email ANNOUNCING A NEW BOOK SERIES from World Heritage Press World Heritage Studies on Ethical and Political Dilemmas of Modern India Series editors: Ninian Smart and Shivesh Thakur The purpose of this series is to explore Indian values, both ancient and modern, in ways that are relevant to contemporary global issues. It is our conviction that both traditionally and in modern times India has functioned as a laboratory of human experience, and that in its ethics and politics, which themselves reflect in varying ways religious ideas and feelings, it has sufficient uniqueness to serve as a model for the whole world. We do not think that necessarily there are simple answers to be drawn from India which can then be applied in the wider global civilization. But we do think that the dilemmas to be found in the tradition can be illuminating in the wider context. Another motive we have in founding this series is to open up ethical and political debate beyond its usual Western scope. The West still follows the path of its past colonialist mentality. So many ethical and political issues are discussed in purely Western terms, and express an unstated contempt for other civilizations. Ultimately one of the global aims of our newly-unified human civilization should be the development of a human culture which reflects the values of the varied civilizations. These themselves are the ingredients of our world--Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Islamic, African, Latin American, Iranian civilizations, as well as the dynamic cultures of the classical and modern West. Books in this series will contribute to a developing debate in which non-Western cultures engage with the West. Despite what is said above about the neo-colonialist mentality of many Western philosophers and others, we certainly do not underrate Western values, but wish to turn them more towards the realities of non-Western civilizations. Ninian Smart Department of Religious Studies University of California Santa Barbara, California 93106, USA Telephone: (805) 893-3578 Telefax: (805) 893-2059 Shivesh Thakur Department of Philosophy and Religion University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls, Iowa 50614-0501, USA Telephone: (319) 273-6221 Telefax: (319) 273-7095 ------------------------------------------------- World Heritage Press 1270 St-Jean St-Hyacinthe, Quebec Canada J2S 8M2 Tel (514) 771 0213 Fax (514) 771 2776 Email On Fri, 17 May 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > Hi, > > >The point here, however, is that Greek astronomy is more advanced than > >earlier Mesopotamian astronomy (but perhaps not that of Babylonia > >contemporary with the Greeks or at least not certainly so). Later Indian > >astronomy contains those advances and includes even a number of Greek loan > >words. > > Yes, I know a bit about the borrowed Greeks words. > > > Another astronomy related question that is intriguing is the following: > consider the words bhaaskara, bhaanu, shani, guru, jagata. > > bhaaskara & bhaanu probably just mean that the sun shines. > I think 'shani' means slow, no? In this case, this is striking, in an > astronomical context. Saturn is the slowest of all the planets visible to the > naked eye (if one discounts Uranus which is at the limit of naked eye > observability and which was discovered using a telescope). > guru means heavy and Jupiter is the heaviest of all the planets. > jagata is formed by the reduplication of gam, I think, and so could mean 'that > which is moving or rotating'. > > Another interesting, but non astronomical word, is hR^idaya. To take and to > give is exactly what the heart does to blood, no? > > What I would like to know is whether this is just a fanciful idea and if its > not, then do the above words appear, in Sanskrit literature, before or after > the relevant discovery in Europe? This could give a clue as to the 'absorbing > nature' of paNDitas! :-) > > Many thanks beforehand for your comments. > > Bye, > > Girish Beeharry > Guru, as the name of the planet Jupiter, is surely not intended to mean heavy, but, rather, important, it is BRhaspati, the preceptor of the gods, and so the equivalent of Jupiter/Zeus. That shani means slow is surely connected to the fact that it is the slowest of the planets known in antiquity. This, in itself, does not establish who first discovered that it was the slowest, but it was part of the astronomical/astrological knowledge transmitted from the mediterranean to India. In fact, it is an important part of the astrological symbolism of Saturn, as the one who establishes limits, and is associated with patience, perseverance and endurance. As for jagata, which I suppose you mean as the rotating earth, the word jagat means something that moves, that is alive. So it also means people or animals. It probably means the earth by extension, that is, the place of the living. Trying to read into it the knowledge of the earth's rotation is highly speculative. Sincerely, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 17 13:24:49 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 14:24:49 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024650.23782.14153084587892580410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Astronomy (and of course astrology) has been a part of Indian society since the >vedic times. It has been a living tradition which has existed continuously all >through the ages. The concepts of Nakshtras, tithis, rasis, planets, precession >of the equinoxes,the days can all be found in the vedas and is certainly older >than the vedas. There has been a continuous stream of astronomers and their >works throught the ages,contributing to the pool of knowledge. VedAnga >jyotisha,sUrya prajnApti, AryabhatIya,Pancha siddhAntika,lIlAvati,have >incorporated the sidereal astronomy of the vedas. One can not simply discount >the earlier references quoted in the SiddhantAs, because they are not available >now and attribute every thing to the Greeks. >> Maybe those of you who take part in this discussion would like to read the following papers: Georg von Simson, Die Buddhas der Vorzeit: Versuch einer astralmythologischen Deutung. StII (Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik), 1981. 7: p. 77-91. Georg von Simson, The mythic background of the Mahabharata. Indol. Taur., 1984. 12: p. 191-223. Georg von Simson, Die zeitmythische Struktur des Mahabharata, i Bopp-Symposium 1992 der Humboldt-Universitat zu Berlin, Reinhard Sternemann, Editor. 1992, Univesitatsverlag C. Winter: Heidelberg. p. 230-247. Furthermore, these titles might be of interest: J. Filliozat, Ancient relations between Indian and Foreign Astronomical Systems. Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, 1955-1956. XXV(I-IV). Hugh Thurston, Early Astronomy. 1994, New York: Springer Verlag. Rolf Muller, Der Himmel uber dem Menschen der Steinzeit. Astronomie und Mathematik in den Bauten der Megalithkulturen. 1970, Berlin: Springer-Verlag. VIII + 153. There is no reason to believe that early peoples had no astronomical interests. After all, what did they watch at night? TV? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri May 17 13:32:09 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 14:32:09 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024652.23782.12526422087489668033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry wrote: >This again brings the matter back to my original query; have people in >Indological studies done work on dating using astronomy? If not, can >someone please tell me whether work is currently being done in this area? The following articles might be of interest: Herman Jacobi, Methods and tables for verifying Hindu dates, tithis, eclipses, nakshatras etc. IA, 1888. 17: p. 145-181. Herman Jacobi, The computation of Hindu dates in inscriptions etc. Epigraphia Indica, 1894. 2: p. 403-460. Herman Jacobi, Der vedische Kalender und das Alter des Veda. ZDMG, 1895. 49: p. 218-230. I think, however, that astronomical data are more difficult to use than one would imagine at the outset. Not being well acquainted with this kind of problem, I let the matter rest there. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Fri May 17 13:10:02 1996 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 15:10:02 +0200 Subject: Bizot query Message-ID: <161227024653.23782.13185468790303683871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, This is the second time I answer: but the first answer seems to have gone into a black hole, maybe this is only netlag :-). Sorry if you receive this twice. - Jean-Luc Chevillard At 21:40 15/05/1996 BST, you wrote: >Does anyone know: > >a) whether Francois BIZOT has an email or snailmail address? > He has recently acquired that facility but I am not sure he uses it regularly (E-mail: bizot at isp.fr ) I think it is better to use snailmail or Fax Fran?ois Bizot 37, rue de Chazelles F-75O17 PARIS TEL. (33) (1) 43 80 00 61 FAX (33) (1) 40 53 89 67 I believe he is currently in Paris But beware that he spends half of his time in Vientiane (LAOS) at the EFEO Center Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient BP 3248 Rue Mahosot Vientiane RDP LAOS TEL. (856) 21 21 52 52 FAX (856) 21 21 74 19 -- Jean-Luc Chevillard CNRS -- Univ. Paris7 (former member of EFEO, India) >b) whether it is possible to get a copy of a paper he delivered at the 10th >International Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies >(Pari >s, July 1991) on " The obscure 'Yogavacara's manual' edited by T. W. Rhys >Davids in 1896" > >I understand Bizot thinks this text is a Khmer composition, and wish I had >more details. > >Thanks for any help, > >jonathan > > > From athr at loc.gov Fri May 17 19:54:09 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 15:54:09 -0400 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024675.23782.12216204596322154379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I must express a revervation as to what Birgit Kellner says in the message quoted below on using Greek or Greek-derived terminology in discussing Indian jyotihsastra. Certainly the Sanskrit terminology ought not to be omitted, but the case of jyotihsastra is different from that of grammar, philosophy, and other fields where the two civilizations developed their Wissenschaften in isolation from one another. Even if one discounts the evidence that Indian astronomy/astrology is profoundly indebted to Babylonian and Greek counterparts, many if not most of the concepts are shared or similar. For this reason to use terminology of Greek origin is one might argue to reflect accurately the fact that it's a body of knowledge that is in large part shared across several civilizations. In addition, in pursuing a sort of ethnic purity of terminology one risks putting the research off into a exoticist, "Orientalist" corner in which there is on the one hand _the_ history of astral science and on the other the history of _Indian_ jyotihsastra. In discussing the closely related field of Indian mathematics, would scholars recommend, and do they in fact, routinely eschew the use of international mathematical terminology for the near-exclusive use of Sanskrit (or Prakrit) terms? Allen Thrasher athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. On Fri, 17 May 1996, Birgit Kellner wrote: > At 12:54 1996-05-17Dominik Wujastyk, you wrote: > > > > >Gary and I were discussing some of David's writing at the weekend, and > >Gary made the very good point that David takes it for granted in much of > >what he writes that the reader is thoroughly familiar with the content of > >Otto Neugebauer's book _The Exact Sciences in Antiquity_. It's a > >reasonable assumption too, in my view. If someone is interested in the > >history of Indian astral sciences, it should go without saying that they > >would read generally about the history of astronomy in the ancient world, > >and Neugebauer's book is a classic in this area. It is also rather short > >(though meaty), which is always nice in a technical book. :-) > > If someone writes a "history of Indian literature"-volume, which I take to > be a general survey of the literature of a certain genre, it is very likely > that some people use it to get a first glimpse of a field they are > interested in. I would, for instance, perceive it as rather odd to find > ancient Greek terms of grammar in a history of vyaakara.na-literature - > terms which are not used anymore, and terms which are left unexplained. I > would also perceive it as out of place if an author of a book on the history > of _pramaa.na_-literature made liberal use of technical terms used in > Ancient Greek philosophy (of such terms which have vanished from common > knowledge in the course of history). Certainly, not only astronomers would > be interested in a history of jyoti.h'saastra. (And, wasn't there supposed > to be a difference between astronomy and astrology? :)) > > Anyway, thank you for the reference. And: Would there, by any chance, be a > Japanese translation of the revered Neugebauer-book? > > Birgit Kellner > Department for Indian Philosophy > University of Hiroshima > > > From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri May 17 15:07:46 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 16:07:46 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024657.23782.11534333472877291488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry writes: >>>Narahari Achar writes: >>>Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that there are many people who believe >>>(like David Pingree) that many fundamental ideas of astronomy in India were >>>borrowed from out side. > >> L.S.Cousins writes: >>Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant >>which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for >>most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek >>influence. > >The verses of the vedas have to be recited at specific times, dates and proper >conjunctions of the grahas for them to be most effective. This is done even >nowadays. Are you saying that the period of major Greek influence occured >before the R^igveda was composed (not the time of writing it down), say? Certainly not. >Was >there a Greek astrology as developed as that in India? The tantrikas determine >the timing of their various aasanas/puujaas etc in a similar fashion. What do >the tankrika paNDitas have to say about how timing is determined in the various >ceremonies? There was certainly no such Greek astrology in the second millennium B.C. when the earliest Vedic texts were presumably composed. If it had a non-Indian source, that would be Babylonia where a type of astronomy existed long prior to the Vedas. (We do not know what astronomical ideas were current in or developed in the Indus civilization.) The point here, however, is that Greek astronomy is more advanced than earlier Mesopotamian astronomy (but perhaps not that of Babylonia contemporary with the Greeks or at least not certainly so). Later Indian astronomy contains those advances and includes even a number of Greek loan words. >Even if all the ideas were borrowed from the Greeks, it still does not answer >my original question. Why do people not look into the whole business of dating >texts etc using astronomy when records of eclipses must be extant for a long >period of time? It is an 'objective' way to go about dating and one even gets >an idea of the error inherent in the method. Unfortunately, your 'must be extant' is simply not the case. I am not sure what the earliest specific record (that survives) of an astronomical event is in India but it must I think be at least A.D. and is no help at all in dating the earlier history. >Of course, the views held by Pingree et al might be just a cultural bias. What >do the knowledgeable people have to say on this? I don't believe anybody who has looked at Pingree's work and understood it could possibly make such a claim. As regards the 'et al', I agree that some of the earlier scholars were affected by the prejudices of their day. But then practically everyone is affected by the prejudices of their day. It is the measure of their achievement that, despite that, much of what they did stands uncontestable. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri May 17 15:07:52 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 16:07:52 +0100 Subject: Bizot query Message-ID: <161227024658.23782.16295795411674502295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk writes: >Does anyone know: > >a) whether Francois BIZOT has an email or snailmail address? No email. He has several snailmail addresses. He is currently in Laos but spends long periods in France. Email me if you still need the address. >b) whether it is possible to get a copy of a paper he delivered at the 10th >International Conference of the International Association of Buddhist Studies >(Pari >s, July 1991) on " The obscure 'Yogavacara's manual' edited by T. W. Rhys >Davids in 1896" The paper was not given. >I understand Bizot thinks this text is a Khmer composition, and wish I had >more details. What would have been in the paper and much more is in: Bizot, F., _Le Chemin de Lankaa_, Textes bouddhiques du Cambodge, ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient, Paris, 1992. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri May 17 15:07:56 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 16:07:56 +0100 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024660.23782.18419270447796427870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: >On Wed, 15 May 1996 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote: > >> Is there some reason we should be considering spending alot of money for >> materials we already have? (I have not used the data extensively yet, but I >> have not noticed any problems, save the sometimes unweildy file size). We obviously now have three versions available (or will do very shortly): 1. Mahidol University (Thailand) with the DOS program BUDSIR. This is the Thai script version of the Pali Canon and Commentaries. The software is not very advanced but a new version is promised. It contains some errors. It is hard to see how many, since the data is encrypted (and effectively cannot be used from a hard disk ?). It contains no cross-references to PTS page numbers and so is difficult to use. 2. IBRIC (Sri Lanka) This is the 'free' version, based upon the edition in Sinhala script. Only the Canon, at present, although work has started on the Commentaries. Quite good freeware has been found for searching on the Mac and we are looking into the DOS side. It does contain references to the PTS editions for most but not all texts (yet). The main snag with this is that it is still an uncorrected version and there is as yet quite a lot to do by way of proofreading. You can of course put the texts on your hard drive. Other developments are in hand. 3. Dhammakaaya Foundation (Thailand) This is based upon the PTS edition of the Canon. It includes a DOS version of a search program with various facilities. (Searching 1) by word or phrase; 2) by page and line; 3) context; 4) word index to the Canon.) Due out in June. A more advanced version for Windows together with the Commentaries is promised for December 1997 and a Mac version soon after that. (Information from Professor K.R. Norman.) I haven't seen it recently and so don't know how accurate it is. >Absolutely none! I think the people publishing CDROM versions for money >have failed dramatically to evaluate the publishing situation correctly. >With a free version of the text available, the CDROM versions can compete >on only two grounds, as far as I can see I don't think it is as simple as this. Even when the final versions are out (and others to come?), textual scholars will find the differences between the Thai, Sinhala and Roman editions important (and useful). But I agree that when IBRIC completes their work this may be the most useful starting point for many people. Of course, prices of the other two may come down or even disappear eventually. One needs to remember that these are mostly volunteer projects and there may be limits as to what they are capable of doing initially. The PTS obviously has a right to seek to protect its market (particularly that to libraries). I suspect myself that they are worrying unnecessarily but it is certainly important to be able to continue to produce new Pali texts and translations. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Fri May 17 08:59:28 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 17:59:28 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024643.23782.18160983364203347115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:01 96/05/16 BST, Gary Tubb wrote: >"Catarchic" means "connected with (determining the proper time for) >beginning an action." "Catarchic Astrology" (referring to what in >Sanskrit is called "muhuurta") is the title and topic of Chapter 6 in >David Pingree's _Jyotihsastra: Astral and Mathematical Literature_, >which is Volume 6, Fascicle 4 in Gonda's _History of Indian Literature_ >(Wiesbaden 1981). ... which is exactly where the question came from. However, Pingree uses the word very rarely, and in a way which renders it impossible to actually guess the meaning. Be that as it may, I would like to thank all those who answered this question. From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri May 17 17:11:34 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 18:11:34 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024666.23782.15665364777435309862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narahari Achar writes: >Lance Cousins writes: > >>Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant >>which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for >>most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek >>influence. > >So is "Samrata-Siddhanta", an 18th century translation of Ptolemy. Can one >conclude that no astronomy existed in India prior to the 18th century? It would do, if we had no prior mention of astronomy. >Astronomy (and of course astrology) has been a part of Indian society since the >vedic times. It has been a living tradition which has existed continuously all >through the ages. I referred above to 'later Indian astronomical ideas' i.e. the many elements that are precisely not attested in early literature. >The concepts of Nakshtras, tithis, rasis, planets, precession >of the equinoxes,the days can all be found in the vedas and is certainly older >than the vedas. There has been a continuous stream of astronomers and their >works throught the ages,contributing to the pool of knowledge. VedAnga >jyotisha,sUrya prajnApti, AryabhatIya,Pancha siddhAntika,lIlAvati,have >incorporated the sidereal astronomy of the vedas. One can not simply discount >the earlier references quoted in the SiddhantAs, because they are not available >now and attribute every thing to the Greeks. Depending what you mean by the 'vedas' only some of the above are genuinely present in the early texts. We can, I think, be pretty sure of the Greek source of many developments. >>I wonder if the reason people sometimes find this offensive is the >>appropriation of the Greeks as somehow 'European'. >and that every thing else is inferior. That would be going too far. Nonetheless the Greek achievement within a very short space of time is impressive. >In the end it does not really matter who discovered what, because those who >really discover truth are "rishis", even if they are "yavana". Time and space >are of not much consequence. But, modern scholarship is hung up on historic >dates, and if it can not find information regarding dates, it becomes very >jittery. All kinds of theories are spun, arguments in favor of one or the other >of these theories are hurled. All that effort can be spent more usefully in >understanding the ideas. I couldn't agree with you about this. Both the historical and the textual are important for scholarship. Dating is very important for understanding many things in this area. Unfortunately, there is a tendency sometimes to adopt a policy of 'shoot the messenger' because the results of scholarship are unpalatable. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri May 17 17:35:48 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 18:35:48 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024668.23782.13526214514762823649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >The point here, however, is that Greek astronomy is more advanced than >earlier Mesopotamian astronomy (but perhaps not that of Babylonia >contemporary with the Greeks or at least not certainly so). Later Indian >astronomy contains those advances and includes even a number of Greek loan >words. Yes, I know a bit about the borrowed Greeks words. In a lighter vein and to continue on another trend, I have been told that Pythagoras was known as 'pitha(pita?) guru' in India! :-) I have no clue as to what the word pitha stands for. Another astronomy related question that is intriguing is the following: consider the words bhaaskara, bhaanu, shani, guru, jagata. bhaaskara & bhaanu probably just mean that the sun shines. I think 'shani' means slow, no? In this case, this is striking, in an astronomical context. Saturn is the slowest of all the planets visible to the naked eye (if one discounts Uranus which is at the limit of naked eye observability and which was discovered using a telescope). guru means heavy and Jupiter is the heaviest of all the planets. jagata is formed by the reduplication of gam, I think, and so could mean 'that which is moving or rotating'. Another interesting, but non astronomical word, is hR^idaya. To take and to give is exactly what the heart does to blood, no? What I would like to know is whether this is just a fanciful idea and if its not, then do the above words appear, in Sanskrit literature, before or after the relevant discovery in Europe? This could give a clue as to the 'absorbing nature' of paNDitas! :-) Many thanks beforehand for your comments. Bye, Girish Beeharry From yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp Fri May 17 10:36:47 1996 From: yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 19:36:47 +0900 Subject: more Sanskrit e-texts available Message-ID: <161227024647.23782.10283755776766638227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, We are glad to announce that new e-texts are available. They are located at the ftp site of Kyoto Sangyo University: ccftp.kyoto-su.ac.jp at the directory: pub/doc/sanskrit/dharmas The new files are : -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 104998 May 17 18:46 apasta.dhs -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 214567 May 17 18:46 arthaz.dhz.Z (updated) -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 100614 May 17 18:46 baudha.dhs -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 176086 May 17 18:46 brhasp.dhz -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 71625 May 17 18:47 gautam.dhs -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 127734 May 17 18:47 katyay.dhz -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 149636 Apr 25 16:15 manu.dhz.Z (updated) -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 119354 May 17 18:47 narada.dhz -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 77071 May 17 18:47 parasa.dhz -rw-r--r-- 1 yanom 53041 May 17 19:06 vaikh.dhs -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 105636 May 17 18:47 vasistha.dhs -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 194212 May 17 18:47 visnu.dhz -rw-rw-r-- 1 yanom 132593 May 17 18:47 yajna.dhz They are all plain text files except the arthazaastra (arthaz.dhz renamed from KAZ.DHZ) and manu.dhz which are compressed by the `compress' command. The coding of these texts are by-products of the project of the Joint Seminar on `Law (dharma) and Society in Classical India' headed by Prof. Yasuke Ikari at the Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University. The texts may be freely distributed and used for scholarly purposes, but we are not responsible for any trouble which might be caused by the use of these files. Suggestions for correction are welcome. Please report to yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp or ikari at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Michio YANO From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri May 17 19:15:06 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 20:15:06 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024673.23782.6360490614219686484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, On Fri, 17 May 1996, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Narahari Achar writes: > > >Lance Cousins writes: > > > >>Surely this is beyond serious doubt. We have a least one text still extant > >>which is essentially a translation from Greek and there is no evidence for > >>most later Indian astronomical ideas earlier than the period of major Greek > >>influence. > > > >So is "Samrata-Siddhanta", an 18th century translation of Ptolemy. Can one > >conclude that no astronomy existed in India prior to the 18th century? > > It would do, if we had no prior mention of astronomy. > What about the oral tradition then? Besides, if one knows about the existence of the 'samrata-siddhaanta' and one does not find any prior mention of astronomy in the texts we have now, one cannot immediately conclude that no astronomy existed in India prior to the 18th century. There may be other texts, yet undiscovered or lost, or there might have been a disruption in the oral tradition. > I couldn't agree with you about this. Both the historical and the textual > are important for scholarship. Dating is very important for understanding > many things in this area. > I see that other people share my views on dating! > Unfortunately, there is a tendency sometimes to adopt a policy of 'shoot > the messenger' because the results of scholarship are unpalatable. > I do not have any problem with the Greeks having discovered everything in astronomy before the Indians. I would, however, like to look into the problem of dating with the mathematical and computational tools available through modern astronomy. I find that Indians/Europeans tend to think that the ancient Indians/Greeks did almost everything in most subjects! I think we should ask Martians, if they exist, to do this study for us as they would not have our bias! :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From vyasa at ix.netcom.com Sat May 18 00:47:57 1996 From: vyasa at ix.netcom.com (Martin Epstein) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 20:47:57 -0400 Subject: Dakshina meaning and derivation Message-ID: <161227024679.23782.9774256975838711805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in the word - dakshina -. I have seen it as a direction , south or southern. I have also seen it as donation. What is the connection? Also, are there references to daksina in Upanishads or Veda with regard to donation? I also heard that dakshina is derived from da and ksha. Any info on that? Thanks for giving these questions your consideration. From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Fri May 17 13:26:51 1996 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 22:26:51 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024655.23782.15898884066192558328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >At 20:01 96/05/16 BST, Gary Tubb wrote: >>"Catarchic" means "connected with (determining the proper time for) >>beginning an action." "Catarchic Astrology" (referring to what in >>Sanskrit is called "muhuurta") is the title and topic of Chapter 6 in >>David Pingree's _Jyotihsastra: Astral and Mathematical Literature_, >>which is Volume 6, Fascicle 4 in Gonda's _History of Indian Literature_ >>(Wiesbaden 1981). > >.. which is exactly where the question came from. However, Pingree uses the >word very rarely, and in a way which renders it impossible to actually guess >the meaning. Perhaps it is not fair to say 'in a way which renders it impossible to actually guess the meaning' without giving the passage(s) in which Pingree actually uses the word 'catarchic'. He says: 'Eventually a separate science developed that used this notion of auspicious and inauspicious time-units, in connection with omens and astrological yogas, to establish the correct time for initiating various kinds of actions; this is the science of muhurta, corresponding to Hellenistic catarchic astrology.' David Pingree's _Jyotihsastra: Astral and Mathematical Literature_, p. 101, lines 10--13. Hayashi From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Fri May 17 16:47:04 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 01:47:04 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024664.23782.2721214774433651895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:54 1996-05-17Dominik Wujastyk, you wrote: > >Gary and I were discussing some of David's writing at the weekend, and >Gary made the very good point that David takes it for granted in much of >what he writes that the reader is thoroughly familiar with the content of >Otto Neugebauer's book _The Exact Sciences in Antiquity_. It's a >reasonable assumption too, in my view. If someone is interested in the >history of Indian astral sciences, it should go without saying that they >would read generally about the history of astronomy in the ancient world, >and Neugebauer's book is a classic in this area. It is also rather short >(though meaty), which is always nice in a technical book. :-) If someone writes a "history of Indian literature"-volume, which I take to be a general survey of the literature of a certain genre, it is very likely that some people use it to get a first glimpse of a field they are interested in. I would, for instance, perceive it as rather odd to find ancient Greek terms of grammar in a history of vyaakara.na-literature - terms which are not used anymore, and terms which are left unexplained. I would also perceive it as out of place if an author of a book on the history of _pramaa.na_-literature made liberal use of technical terms used in Ancient Greek philosophy (of such terms which have vanished from common knowledge in the course of history). Certainly, not only astronomers would be interested in a history of jyoti.h'saastra. (And, wasn't there supposed to be a difference between astronomy and astrology? :)) Anyway, thank you for the reference. And: Would there, by any chance, be a Japanese translation of the revered Neugebauer-book? Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Sat May 18 08:58:28 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 01:58:28 -0700 Subject: Dakshina meaning and derivation Message-ID: <161227024680.23782.8778283523984538443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin, Lithuanian: dezinas, once In RV. i.100.9 dakSiNa seems linked to root dakS hence meaning dexterous, ability. In Hindi, dahinA means right (apparent reference to the more dexterous right hand) When an altar is set to the right hand side, dakSiNA, (in relation to the eastern direction faced by the priest), it refers o the southern fire of the altar. Maybe, it is not a donation but a fee offered or share of the SOMA (electrum) for dexterous service. dakSA is also interpreted as living energy in JBr. i.151 It is also 'dawn' in RV. vi.64.1: tasmA iyam dakSiNA pinvate sadA bhUmirapi sasyAdisampAdanadakSA: uSas. S. Kalyanaraman mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in >I am interested in the word - dakshina -. I have seen it as a direction , south or southern. I have also seen it as donation. What is the connection? Also, are there references to daksina in Upanishads or Veda with regard to donation? I also heard that dakshina is derived from da and ksha. Any info on that? > >Thanks for giving these questions your consideration. > >?From 100441.3571 at CompuServe.COM 18 96 May EDT 06:44:02 Date: 18 May 96 06:44:02 EDT From: Jean Fezas <100441.3571 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re:Dakshina meaning and derivation Martin Epstein Wote To: Members of the list >I am interested in the word - dakshina -. I have seen it as a direction = >, south or southern. I have also seen it as donation. What is the = >connection? Also, are there references to daksina in Upanishads or Veda = >with regard to donation? I also heard that dakshina is derived from da = >and ksha. Any info on that? >Thanks for giving these questions your consideration. According to R.L. Turner, a Comparativel Dictionary of Indo-Arian Languages dakSiNa (349b, [6119]) has the meaning of 'right (hand)' in the RgVeda, 'southern' in AtharvaVeda. Derivatives in modern languages share both meanings. dakSiNA (f.) [ibid 6120] 'Fee to a priest' RgVeda, 'gift' Manu. The connection between 'right hand' and 'sacrificial fee' is quite easy to analyze in the light of M. Mayrhofer's Kurzgefasstes etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen (Band 2 Heidelberg, 1963) p.10 SV dakSiNaH, 'right, southern, able, dexterous' (since RgVeda); and p.27 SV dazasyati 'serves, obliges, favours' : the meaning 'southern' comes from the direction situated at the right side of someone looking towards the east (the rising sun); the right hand is dexterous; dakSiNA f. is a 'sacrificial fee' i.e. the gift rewarding an act accomplished to the satisfaction of the sacrificer (Cf. Mayrhofer, SV. dakSati; Turner [6116] dakSa- 'able, clever', [6117] dakSate 'is able'). Obviously, the derivation from dA (to give?) and kSa (??) is wrong, but it may be interesting to find out why it was suggested. As we all know, sk. putra-, the word for son, has no linguistic connection with put+tra ('protecting from the hell named 'put', cf., inter alia, Mn.9.138), no grammarian would ever have taken it seriously. It seems to me that such derivations were not produced through some kind of delirium, but answered a need: their social conotation was strong enough to overcome 'scientific' (critical) knowledge. Members of this list have recently made fun about indian etymologies of european proper names (Shakespeare) and pointed that it was a means of alleviating some kind of 'inferiority complex'. This is certainly true, but could not the study of the use, as an irrefutable argument, of (sometimes fantastic) etymology in indian literature, be an interesting subject of dicussion ? J. FEZAS URA 1058, CNRS (Paris) From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Sat May 18 18:56:49 1996 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 11:56:49 -0700 Subject: Dakshina meaning and derivation Message-ID: <161227024691.23782.53105166476394888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * I am interested in the word - dakshina -. I have seen it as a direction , * south or southern. I have also seen it as donation. What is the connection? I would like to add a short cultural note to this discussion. In south India at least, it is a tremendous sign of disrespect if one gives or receives anything with the left hand. That being the case, dakshiNa meaning both ``gift'' and ``right'' are inseparably tied together. Mani From garzilli at shore.net Sat May 18 16:22:56 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 12:22:56 -0400 Subject: JSAWS Vol. 2, No. 2 (May 15, 1996) - ISSN 1085-7478 Message-ID: <161227024684.23782.12436621734344125785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are pleased to announce that the: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES VOL. 2, NO. 2 (MAY 15, 1996) -- ISSN 1085-7478 (C) 1996 JSAWS. All rights reserved. http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ jsaws-request at shore.net has just been distributed by email to our Members. It is now available on our ftp server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/jsaws/issues/ In a few days it will be published on our WWW pages: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ CONTENTS: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPERS: *Sati was not Enforced in Ancient Nepal*, by Jayaraj Acharya *The Daughters and Hindu Rites*, by Bandita Phukan *Practical Steps Towards Saving the Lives of 25,000 Potential Victims of Dowry and Bride-Burning in India in the Next Four Years* by Himendra B. Thakur. - NEW TITLES: Review of Nancy Dammann, *We Tried. Government Service in India and Nepal* (Enrica Garzilli) Review of Taslima Nasrin, *The Game in Reverse. Poems* (Enrica Garzilli) - NEWS - COPYRIGHT NOTICE SATI WAS NOT ENFORCED IN ANCIENT NEPAL by Jayaraj Acharya Abstract Sati, the ancient custom in the Hindu religion of a wife being burnt with her dead husband, does not seem to have been enforced in ancient Nepal, i.e. during the rule of the Licchavi dynasty (c. A.D. 300-879). In this paper, the about 190 stone inscriptions from this period are considered. The only Licchavi inscription which has a reference to the sati system is the inscription of Manadeva I at the Changu Narayana temple in the north-eastern corner of the Kathmandu valley (A.D. 464). This inscription does not refer to the commitment of sati but abstention from it. Moreover, out of the total 190, there are 18 stone inscriptions that were installed exclusively by widows during the Licchavi period. Of the 18 inscriptions of widows, only 3 were by members of the royal family. These are some instances that evidently indicate the abstention from sati, but there is not a single evidence in any of the 190 inscriptions from the Licchavi period Nepal that says that someone did it. * * * * * THE DAUGHTERS AND HINDU RITES by Bandita Phukan Abstract This the account of Ms. Bandita Phukan. She is the first woman mechanical engineer in the State of Assam. When her father died in 1993, the relatives tried to find a son of a cousin to do the last rites (Shraddha), because her father did not have a son. Bandita revolted, and asked the priest to permit her to do the last rites. At the beginning, the priest refused. Last rites of a dead person can be performed only by a male member of the family, and never by a daughter. Bandita did not give up. At her insistence, one Brahmin priest came forward and allowed her to perform the last rites of her father. If married Hindu daughters could be allowed to perform the Shraddha cerimonies, concludes Phukan, their surviving parents would be happy to have a dear daughter as eligible as their dear son. * * * * * PRACTICAL STEPS TOWARDS SAVING THE LIVES OF 25,000 POTENTIAL VICTIMS OF DOWRY AND BRIDE-BURNING IN INDIA IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS by Himendra B. Thakur This paper offers an analysis of one of the remedies that could be suggested to oppose dowry: young women should refuse to marry as soon as the groom's family asks for dowry. It gives statistics and examines: 1) the cases of dowry-deaths in India; 2) the geographical distribution of concentration of dowry-deaths per million Hindu popolation. In the last part of the paper, Thakur outlines three immediate and a long-term solutions given women who refuse to marry because of dowry demand. Enjoy the reading! Dr. Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS Managing Editor, EJVS From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sat May 18 11:54:59 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 12:54:59 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024683.23782.8405626392464565160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry wrote: > > >In a lighter vein and to continue on another trend, I have been told that >Pythagoras was known as 'pitha(pita?) guru' in India! :-) I have no clue as to >what the word pitha stands for. > If this is correct, it is very interesting. It would mean that the Greek name Pythagoras was pronounced Pithaguru in India (Obviously, the last part of the word was considered to be guru, a word well known to Indians). Now, compare the Greek form Sandrakottos (<= Candragutta, obviously a Prakrit version of Candragupta). Notice that the Indic u is given as o in Greek. These two sounds must have sounded similar to contemporaries. The i in Pithaguru/Pythagoras would indicate that Greek y (ypsilon) was pronounced i (like English ee in teeth if long and like i in kick when short) by the time the name reached India. (This development happens to several Greek vowels, we speek of iotacism). In other words, Indians learned the name of Pythagoras by the time that Greek y was pronounced i, which seem to have happened in the Hellenistic period, if I remember correctly. Thus we may have a terminus post quem for the migration of the name Pythagoras to India: It would have happened sometime after 300 B.C.E. It would be very interesting to get a reference to the sources where the name of Pythagoras is mentioned! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sat May 18 18:19:45 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:19:45 +0100 Subject: Request for information Message-ID: <161227024686.23782.14780786949586204236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leonard Zwilling writes: >Can someone direct me to any work which has been done on invective or >verbal abuse in sanskrit or prakrit literature, or discussions of those >subjects in the literatures themselves? In his commentary to the >vinayapiTaka Buddhaghosa quots from an akkosaniddesa, so it appears that >such treatments were not entirely unknown. Needless to say the study of >maledicta can provide important social and cultural information. Thanks in >advance. This is perhaps not very helpful ! But I doubt that akkosa-niddese at Sp III 548 refers to the title of a work. It is probably just a reference to the following sequence of explanations of the words used in the 'akkosa' which is being commented on. It does not appear to be found elsewhere in the commentarial literature. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat May 18 19:43:30 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:43:30 +0000 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024689.23782.5039782167132485491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 17 May 1996, L.S.Cousins wrote: > One needs to remember that these are mostly volunteer projects and there > may be limits as to what they are capable of doing initially. The incredible achievements of the Kyoto scholars in creating MRFs (machine readable files) of the Ramayana, Mbh, and many dharma and jyotisa texts, as well as the fact that there are *three* MRF versions of the Tripitaka suggest to me that it is easy to underestimate what dedicated people are prepared to do in this arena. > The PTS obviously has a right to seek to protect its market (particularly > that to libraries). I suspect myself that they are worrying unnecessarily > but it is certainly important to be able to continue to produce new Pali > texts and translations. I think that the PTS is using a model of marketing/publicity which has been rendered obsolete by computing technology and communications. The PTS will not succeed in protecting either its texts or its library market by charging for the MRF, whatever its costs in producing it. In what way will a handful of sales at $150 offer any real support to the organization? In the current situation there are two ways the PTS can benefit from the MRF of the Tripitaka. The first and most important is to use it to deliver publicity and generate goodwill (in the commercial sense). The PTS should give away the MRF of the texts for the cost of the media, and possibly make it freely available on the Internet. But it should add substantial packaging and high-profile publicity material to the MRFs saying what a marvellous organization the PTS is, how much people have to gain by becoming members, what a *good* idea it is to learn Pali, and how much *more* the PTS could do if people made donations to the society, and how anyone the slightest bit interested in Buddhism simply *has* to subscribe to the PTS journal, and how the printed versions of the texts are also worth buying in order to pursue certain kinds of further study, and for convenience when travelling, for those with partial eyesight, etc, etc. Let the MRFs be the sugared pill on which this message is delivered. There is *absolutely* no point in charging for a product which, despite the various possible demerits of the other versions, is available free elsewhere. All that will happen is that everyone will use the free version, and the PTS version will be completely marginalized. Take as an example of this kind of marginalization the British Library catalogues. The BL has been trying for years to work out a way of making money out of its OPAC. Now, with the Library of Congress, Cambridge, Oxford, and many hundreds of other OPACs freely available, nobody even notices that the BL catalogues are not available. They have marginalized themselves. Nobody can make money out of a resource which is available free elsewhere! (In spite of differences in matters of detail.) What the BL should have done as soon as the Internet boomed two or three years ago was to throw open its catalogues and *use* the opportunity of people's logins to deliver messages about itself and drum up voluntary support. The model I would advocate is closer to that of shareware: give the product away, but appeal to the consumers' better nature for financial recompense. This approach should be especially appealing to a organization promoting Buddhist scholarship. And above all, use the opportunity to create a surge of goodwill towards the PTS, which will in time create its own crop of unforseen rewards. And it will be promoting its own aims: the furtherence of Pali scholarship. The second way the PTS can benefit is to use the MRFs as the basis of an all-singing, all-dancing multimedia presentation of Pali/Buddhist culture and history. Look at what the Perseus project has achieved; this is marketed through Yale Univ. Press. It is this "added value" that makes a marketable commodity, not just the texts. -- Dominik Wujastyk From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun May 19 11:41:10 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 07:41:10 -0400 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024698.23782.18366709818877821013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is true that there are a lot of pre-Paninian fanciful etymologies and that the Paninian tradition attempted to bring some methodological sophistication. However, we should not brush aside 'fanciful' etymologies, except when they are offered as jokes. For example, the Prakrit word 'arihanta' is indeed accountable as a transform of Skt. arhant with an epenthetic vowel. However, the Jains and the Buddhists interpreted, in all seriousness, this word as ari+hanta "destroyer of enemies", where these enemies are the unwholesome states of mind, etc. Such linguistically fanciful etymologies are critical for our understanding of the synchronic comprehension of those terms and concepts by the respective communities. Similarly, while the historical origins of the name Hindu is clearly connected with the river Sindhu, and the Persian pronunciation of this name, one need not throw out the midieval etymology of the word 'hindu' with 'himsaam duuzayati'. Such an etymology reflects what is seen by large segments of Hindus as a prominent feature of their religious identity. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 19 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Fri, 17 May 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > > > Another interesting, but non astronomical word, is hR^idaya. To take and to > > give is exactly what the heart does to blood, no? > > > > What I would like to know is whether this is just a fanciful idea [...] > > Yup, it's fanciful, I'm afraid. The root h.rd is no doubt avery old IE > word, and ultimately cognate with "heart" etc. But an acquaintance with > Sanskrit grammar shows that the "daya" in h.rdaya is nothing to do with > "daa" to give. The "d" is part of "h.rd", and "aya" is a suffix. The > "H.r" in h.rdaya is likewise nothing to do with the root "h.r" to take, > but is the beginning of the base "h.rd". > > The kind of etymologizing above that Girish suggests is fanciful is > characteristic of pre-Paninian thinking, especially in Yaska's Nirukta. It > is also characteristic, if I may say so, of non-Paninian thinking, i.e., > one finds it in the literature of authors who were either not acquainted > with Panini, or who were more interested in associative and symbolic > thinking than in Paninian bit-twiddling. > > However, if it is history we are trying to do, the Paninian and > philological approach is essential. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. > FAX +44-171-611-8545 > email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html > > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun May 19 10:07:18 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 10:07:18 +0000 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024693.23782.16188054426842290322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 17 May 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > Another interesting, but non astronomical word, is hR^idaya. To take and to > give is exactly what the heart does to blood, no? > > What I would like to know is whether this is just a fanciful idea [...] Yup, it's fanciful, I'm afraid. The root h.rd is no doubt avery old IE word, and ultimately cognate with "heart" etc. But an acquaintance with Sanskrit grammar shows that the "daya" in h.rdaya is nothing to do with "daa" to give. The "d" is part of "h.rd", and "aya" is a suffix. The "H.r" in h.rdaya is likewise nothing to do with the root "h.r" to take, but is the beginning of the base "h.rd". The kind of etymologizing above that Girish suggests is fanciful is characteristic of pre-Paninian thinking, especially in Yaska's Nirukta. It is also characteristic, if I may say so, of non-Paninian thinking, i.e., one finds it in the literature of authors who were either not acquainted with Panini, or who were more interested in associative and symbolic thinking than in Paninian bit-twiddling. However, if it is history we are trying to do, the Paninian and philological approach is essential. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun May 19 10:49:05 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 11:49:05 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024695.23782.6163593114919429105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann said: >Guru, as the name of the planet Jupiter, is surely not intended to mean >heavy, but, rather, important, it is BRhaspati, the preceptor of the >gods, and so the equivalent of Jupiter/Zeus. That shani means slow is >surely connected to the fact that it is the slowest of the planets known >in antiquity. This, in itself, does not establish who first discovered >that it was the slowest, but it was part of the astronomical/astrological >knowledge transmitted from the mediterranean to India. In fact, it is an >important part of the astrological symbolism of Saturn, as the one who >establishes limits, and is associated with patience, perseverance and >endurance. >As for jagata, which I suppose you mean as the rotating earth, the word >jagat means something that moves, that is alive. So it also means people >or animals. It probably means the earth by extension, that is, the >place of the living. Trying to read into it the knowledge of the earth's >rotation is highly speculative. This is interesting but is only one reading of it. If you talk to a paNDita, who has learned from tradition, you might get a different answer. I am a lay person; whom to believe? :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun May 19 11:01:48 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 12:01:48 +0100 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024696.23782.1915092728356368775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >The kind of etymologizing above that Girish suggests is fanciful is >characteristic of pre-Paninian thinking, especially in Yaska's Nirukta. It >is also characteristic, if I may say so, of non-Paninian thinking, i.e., >one finds it in the literature of authors who were either not acquainted >with Panini, or who were more interested in associative and symbolic >thinking than in Paninian bit-twiddling. This is quite interesting as many of the traditional paNDitas do things like that so may be they are as influenced by Yaksha as by Panini. There is obviously a difference between westerners and paNDitas in the teaching and learning of Sanskrit. This may be a PhD topic... Quick, a student!! :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sun May 19 21:35:31 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 14:35:31 -0700 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024701.23782.7134418582420133724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 19 May 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > It is true that there are a lot of pre-Paninian fanciful > etymologies and that the Paninian tradition attempted to bring some > methodological sophistication. However, we should not brush aside > 'fanciful' etymologies, except when they are offered as jokes. For > example, the Prakrit word 'arihanta' is indeed accountable as a transform > of Skt. arhant with an epenthetic vowel. However, the Jains and the > Buddhists interpreted, in all seriousness, this word as ari+hanta > "destroyer of enemies", where these enemies are the unwholesome states of > mind, etc. Such linguistically fanciful etymologies are critical for our > understanding of the synchronic comprehension of those terms and concepts > by the respective communities. Similarly, while the historical origins > of the name Hindu is clearly connected with the river Sindhu, and the > Persian pronunciation of this name, one need not throw out the midieval > etymology of the word 'hindu' with 'himsaam duuzayati'. Such an > etymology reflects what is seen by large segments of Hindus as a > prominent feature of their religious identity. > Madhav Deshpande No doubt fanciful etymologies are important for understanding the synchronic comprehension of certain terms, as long as it is made clear what what considers as the historical etymology, and what is a culture-context explanation of the term. There are other good examples in yoga, where hatha is interpreted as a combination of "ha," the Sun, and "tha," the Moon, thereby superimposing on the word the tantric dualism of Shiva-Shakti, Sun-Moon, etc. Likewise, guru is explained as a combination of "gu" and "ru," said to mean light and darkness, thereby meaning that the guru is the one that dispels darkness and gives light. These etymologies are definitely important in terms of what the words meant -and mean- to many followers of hatha yoga and tantrism, but it is also important to understand what the historical meaning of the terms is, and why they came to be so explained. We must not forget that these etymological exercises very often pretend to be given as historical explanation, one that is linked to the origins of a tradition. They are are a way of apropriating a term and, sometimes, asimilating and transforming a belief. These kinds of etymologies are very common in occult and esoteric traditions all over the world. Take, for example, the etymology of Solomon (the king) as Sol (the Sun, in Latin), Om (the sacred Sanskrit syllable), and Mon (the Moon), thereby symbolizing the union of the opposites with the help of OM. This mishmash of languages ignores the fact that Solomon comes from the Hebrew Shlomo, derived from the root Sh-L-M, which means full, complete, and also gives rise to shalom, peace. I have also heard that Solomon comes from Solo, meaning that he attained his spiritual status by himself, i.e. "solo." Sometimes these folk etymologies are simply based on a confusion, like the typical linguistic example of the term bikini, which many believes comes from bi plus kini, because it is a two-piece bathing suit, while the meaning is derived from the fact that it was worn by people from the Bikini islands. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From pdb1 at columbia.edu Mon May 20 01:28:37 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 21:28:37 -0400 Subject: Maharashtra History between 800-1300 AD Message-ID: <161227024705.23782.15076388840642931541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Bapat Jb wrote: > 1) The birth of Marathi language: Did it actually come from Kannada > or does it have a different and distinct philological origin? Marathi from Kannada? I've never heard that one before. Influences and borrowings from Kannada, certainly; but by all the criteria of historical/comparative linguistics Marathi is clearly Indo-Aryan, thus derived from something very similar to Sanskrit. The only controversy I know of is about whether Maharashtri Prakrit is in the direct line from OIA to Marathi. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon May 20 02:14:55 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 19 May 96 22:14:55 -0400 Subject: Dating Message-ID: <161227024706.23782.5676316285590881574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A while ago the subject of punning came up in the Indo-European list. Perhaps the following note will be relevant to the present thread: "Perhaps you are familiar with two reasonably accessible books, both published by Blackwell: 1. Walter Redfern's 'Puns' [1984] and 2. 'On Puns: the Foundation of Letters,' a collection of essays edited by Jonathan Culler [1988]. In the latter is an essay by Frederick Ahl on the pun in classical antiquity [with a good bibliography]. Indo-European studies has been re-invigorated by the discovery of Saussure's notebooks on anagrams [published by Starobinski], in which Saussure sees the phenomenon in numerous IE traditions of antiquity. Interesting work on IE poetics has resulted [cf. especially Calvert Watkins' new book]. I am a Vedicist. In Vedic this phenomenon [punning] has been perceived, until recently, to be a matter of 'folk etymology.' But it is very difficult, given our distance from our sources, to tell the difference between pun and etymology. In any case, there is a great deal of effort in early Vedic texts to motivate certain semantic associations [call them 'ideas'] by means of what are essentially puns. Perhaps it is relevant to your concerns to know that probably the most sophisticated linguistic tradition on the planet prior to the birth of linguistics in 19th century Europe [i.e., after the discovery of Sanskrit] is that of the Sanskrit grammarians, who, in my view, can be traced back by intellectual and spiritual lineage to the poets and proto-linguists of the Rigveda. Much more, of course, could be said about puns and language development [e.g., in children]. Suffice it to say that, as a Sanskritist, I share with you this interest in puns as an important linguistic phenomenon. Hoping that this note is of use to you...." In pre-technical proto-linguistic traditions [such as the Vedic], as Madhav Deshpande has already shown us, there appears to be little interest in historical or comparative linguistics [or etymology]. In fact, even the Paninian tradition exhibits little interest in or awareness of historical issues [though of course the tradition is quite sophisticated etymologically]. To look at the issue of "folk etymology" from still another point of view: like puns, these are often used to *motivate ideas*, to make phonic links between concepts that have come together in the minds of a linguistic community for other reasons entirely. As such, these obviously "incorrect" folk etymologies function like rhyme in a poem. And, in fact, they are frequently used as such, as poetic devices, throughout the RV, as Elizarenkova's new book, "Language and Style of the Vedic RSis", has made clear. From one point of view, the Vedic RSis may appear to be naive linguists. From another, they appear to be very skillful poets. Best wishes, George Thompson From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Sun May 19 16:32:10 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 01:32:10 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024699.23782.17150784773271971114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:59 1996-05-17 BST, Allen Thrasher wrote: > I must express a revervation as to what Birgit Kellner says in the message >quoted below on using Greek or Greek-derived terminology in discussing >Indian jyotihsastra. Certainly the Sanskrit terminology ought not to be >omitted, but the case of jyotihsastra is different from that of grammar, >philosophy, and other fields where the two civilizations developed their >Wissenschaften in isolation from one another. Even if one discounts the >evidence that Indian astronomy/astrology is profoundly indebted to >Babylonian and Greek counterparts, many if not most of the concepts are >shared or similar. For this reason to use terminology of Greek origin is >one might argue to reflect accurately the fact that it's a body of >knowledge that is in large part shared across several civilizations. In >addition, in pursuing a sort of ethnic purity of terminology one risks >putting the research off into a exoticist, "Orientalist" corner in which >there is on the one hand _the_ history of astral science and on the other >the history of _Indian_ jyotihsastra. In discussing the closely related >field of Indian mathematics, would scholars recommend, and do they in >fact, routinely eschew the use of international mathematical terminology >for the near-exclusive use of Sanskrit (or Prakrit) terms? As became obvious from my postings on Jyoti.h'saastra, I know next to nothing about it (At this point, I have to apologize for my sloppy reading of Pingree's book. As Takao Hayashi pointed out, there is indeed a passage in Pingree's book which makes the meaning of "catarchic" quite clear), but if I am permitted to throw in my uninformed answer to Allen Thrasher's question, I would resort to the all-curing medicine "it all depends". Firstly, in the process of studying a certain body of knowledge, it is always useful and, to a certain extent, necessary to compare Sanskrit terminology to that of one's own language, or to that terminology which has become accepted as a standard of the same/a corresponding body of knowledge in one's own tradition/culture. This is part of the learning-process. Secondly, to what degree the "own", e.g. Greek terminology, should be used in publications depends on the purpose and target audience of the study, irrespective of whether certain bodies of knowledge are historically dependent on others in different cultures or not. Any writer uses a language which he assumes his audience will be able to understand. If he writes mainly for astronomers, there's nothing wrong with writing in astronomer's jargon, if he writes for the general public, that would be inappropriate. It is part of a writer's skill to develop a sensorium of what knowledge can be presupposed on part of what audience. As for two points levelled against a purely Sanskritistic terminology (if one might choose to advocate such a strange breed, which I'm not) I am not convinced by either. To the "shared across several civilizations"-argument: If one and the same body of knowledge is shared across several civilizations, there is no particular reason why one language should be preferable to another. The only reason why one doesn't retain the original Sanskrit is that not many people in one's readership will be likely to understand Sanskrit. Add to which, I am sure that even an Indological field which is indebted to Greek ancestors has certain peculiarities and idiosyncracies, which would be hidden by a consistent (unexplained) use of Greek terminology. So I can't really see why the history of Jyoti.h'saastra would be different from that of other disciplines, grammar or philosophy. This may be due to my doubts about the assumption that different cultures can share EXACTLY the same body of knowledge, and hence, I cannot see any merits in a reductionist attitude to the study of foreign sciences/philosophies (i.e. one that reduces an Indian body of knowledge to a Greek/European/... parallel field). In case of philosophy, I always find myself shrugging at publications which simply claim that "the Indian philosopher's claim A is none other than the ancient Greek/medieval French/post-modern notion of B". So what? Such an unsophisticated application of comparativism only results in an obfuscation of both crucial differences and (really) important parallels. As for the "exoticism"-danger, I am not convinced either. Actually, I can imagine that the constant usage of Greek terminology would produce more exoticism than the constant (and explained) usage of Sanskrit terminology, by giving rise to the question that, if these strange Indian astronomers did do nothing different from the Greeks (and were probably even using authentic Greek sources), why did they go through so much trouble to cloud the sharp and clear analysis of ancient Greek astronomy by wrapping layers of strange Sanskrit around it? By reducing Sanskrit terminology to Greek equivalents, the prejudice of "on the one hand _the_ history of astral science and on the other the history of _Indian_ jyotihsastra" is reinforced rather than removed. Much more has already been said and written on this subject, and much more probably will (and shall) be. Anyway, before using Greek terminology, obviously, one would have to establish THAT Greek and Indian sciences really employ corresponding notions. There's nothing wrong with a sophisticated use of Greek terminology, i.e. with one which is explained and made clear, and fortunately, the beautiful creature of "annotation" still inhabits the dense forest of academia, and let's hope that it won't become extinct. Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From magier at columbia.edu Mon May 20 12:11:26 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 08:11:26 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024721.23782.8924280174905549966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On May 20, 1996, Swami Gitananda wrote: > By calling them "etymologies" we are ensuring that they will be > inadequate, and > therefore can qualify them as "fanciful." It would be perhaps more > accurate to > find a better term for them. The best I can think of now is > something along the > lines of "cultural word derivations." I would be very interested > in hearing more > learned opinions than my own on this. The term "folk etymology" has been used in this context, and it needn't have any pejorative sense. David Magier From Jon.Skarpeid at hint.no Mon May 20 06:54:07 1996 From: Jon.Skarpeid at hint.no (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 08:54:07 +0200 Subject: addresses, email and fax Message-ID: <161227024708.23782.5995460927434934571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody knows the address, e-mail and fax to the following institution: Madras University I would also like to know the fax and e-mail to the following intstitutions: Sangit Natak Academy, New Delhi Vishwa Bharti University, Shanti Nikeketan Thank You Jon Skarpeid >?From 71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM 19 96 May EDT 23:00:35 Date: 19 May 96 23:00:35 EDT From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) On May 19, 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >The kind of etymologizing above that Girish suggests is fanciful is >characteristic of pre-Paninian thinking, especially in Yaska's Nirukta. I would like to raise the question of how appropriate it is to call these verbal derivations "etymologies,"in our sense of the word. According to Webster's, etymon is the "literal meaning of a word according to its origins." To my knowledge, there's no claim to historical authenticity in these word derivations. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote that << these etymological exercises very often pretend to be given as historical explanation, one that is linked to the origins of a tradition.>> This is not doubt true, but there's no claim to historical derivation in the philological sense, as far as I can tell. Or am I missing something? It seems to me they are rather creative ways of unfolding meanings inherent in a term. I fully agree with Madhav Deshpande when he writes that << Such linguistically fanciful etymologies are critical for our understanding of the synchronic comprehension of those terms and concepts by the respective communities>> By calling them "etymologies" we are ensuring that they will be inadequate, and therefore can qualify them as "fanciful." It would be perhaps more accurate to find a better term for them. The best I can think of now is something along the lines of "cultural word derivations." I would be very interested in hearing more learned opinions than my own on this. Swami Gitananda 71203.2563 at compuserve.com From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Mon May 20 09:20:55 1996 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 09:20:55 +0000 Subject: Maharashtra History between 800-1300 AD Message-ID: <161227024703.23782.12732891557798139941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My work on the Gurav temple priests up till now leads me to believe that they came originally from Karnataka and that they may have had their origins in the Kalamukhas who mysteriously disappeared after the arrival of the Lingayats on the scene in Karnataka. In this regard I am seeking information on the following( either as journal articles, books or manuscripts) and would be very grateful for any help. 1) The birth of Marathi language: Did it actually come from Kannada or does it have a different and distinct philological origin? 2) What are the best references to the history of Karnataka and Maharashtra around this time that deal with this topic? 3) Are there good references that deal with Brahminic and non-Brahminic Shaivism of this region between 800 AD and 1300 AD? 4) Finally apart from Lorenzen's work, are there references to the demise of the Kalamukhas and the social and religious history of the Deccan around that time? Thank you in advance for your help. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From niccd at pcnet.ro Mon May 20 10:08:57 1996 From: niccd at pcnet.ro (niccd at pcnet.ro) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:08:57 +0000 Subject: Please, help! Message-ID: <161227024715.23782.17692842763449686228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi! Do you know if there's anybody who has the full translation of ParAprAvezikA of KSemarAja? I like very much this small text, but I have only the first part of it. My Sanskrit is not so good yet just to do the translation myself. ThankYou very much! Codrin From gat4 at columbia.edu Mon May 20 14:21:29 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:21:29 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024726.23782.16688791679695347243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > [...] > The "sermonic" meaning is not "inherent" in the word "person" in any > historically meaningful way, but rather in a symbolic and allusive way, > generated in present time from the free associative reflections of the > speaker. Sounds like asatkaaryavaada to me. From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Mon May 20 17:32:31 1996 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:32:31 -0700 Subject: Please, help! Message-ID: <161227024738.23782.14288056528285603693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Codrin Nicolau wrote: > Do you know if there's anybody who has the full translation of > ParAprAvezikA of KSemarAja? There's a free translation/paraphrase with commentary by Swami Lakshmanjoo in John Hughes, _Self Relization in Kahsmir Shaivism_ (Albany, NY: State U. of New York Press, 1994), chap. 3, "Entrance into the Supreme Reality." There is also a transliteration of the Sanskrit text in an appendix. LN --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- >?From 71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM 20 96 May EDT 16:52:12 Date: 20 May 96 16:52:12 EDT From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) On May 20, 1996, David Magier wrote: >The term "folk etymology" has been used in this context, and it >needn't have any pejorative sense. Agreed that it need not be pejorative. My point was that they are not etymologies, and they are not necessarily "folk," either. I don't think it's an accurate appellation. Swami Gitananda 71203.2563 at CompuServe.com From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 20 14:35:02 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:35:02 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024728.23782.5575679117287284831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I agree with Dominik that new meanings derived from "fanciful" etymologies are not "inherent" in those words, I think he is using the word "historical" in a rather limited way. And, yes, even historically useful philological information can be extracted from the so-called "fanciful" etymologies. Consider for example the Upanishadic etymology of 'puruza' from 'puri .sete' (puri.saya, puri+.s). While on the one hand, this etymology is extracting a new meaning from the word, the break-down of 'puruza' as 'puri+.sa' also hints at the historically important factor of Sanskrit/Prakrit diaglossia, such that most Prakrits known to us have the word given as 'purisa', 'puri.s', 'puli.sa' etc. A great deal of historically significant philological information can be extracted from the fanciful etymologies in the Brahmanas and in the Prakrit texts. It is the historically valid phonology of the word 'arihanta' in Prakrit which makes its reanalysis as 'ari-hanta' possible. Another historically significant dimension of these latter-day etymologies is that they take us closer to the meaning intended by their users at a given time. The claims of our modern "historically and philologically justified etymology" cannot be perceived as overriding the value of the etymology given by a text, when we are interpreting that text. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 20 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Mon, 20 May 1996, Swami Gitananda wrote: > > [...] > > It seems to me they are rather creative ways of unfolding meanings > > inherent in a term. [...] > > Well, I agree with everything up to the word "inherent". The kind of > non-historical reflections on the meanings of words that we are discussing > may be extremely interesting and revealing, etc., etc. But that doesn't > alter the fact that they are not historically correct. > > To say, for example, that a "person" is so called because in the modern > consumerist world everyone has his or her "purse-on" in order to buy more > consumer products may be useful in the context of a Marxist sermon. But > what we learn from this has everything to do with the views of the person > giving the sermon, and nothing to do with historical philology. The > "sermonic" meaning is not "inherent" in the word "person" in any > historically meaningful way, but rather in a symbolic and allusive way, > generated in present time from the free associative reflections of the > speaker. > > Dominik > > > > > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England > email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk FAX: 44 171 611 8545 > > > From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon May 20 15:12:59 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 11:12:59 -0400 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024730.23782.9424166201186754200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an element of the computerization of the Pali Tipitaka (and any other text) which we should not lose sight of: Already by printing the canon the PTS further canonized a text which the editors of the respective volumes openly confessed to be highly problematic from a text-critical / historical point of view. At least the PTS printed editions have varia lectiones, as problematic as they are. (It is almost pitiful to read the Prefaces to the editions and see the editors complain that they were unable to gain access to good MSS, or that they could see only MSS from the Singhalese tradition, and could obtain no Burmese MSS, etc. etc.) While obviously it is difficult to get up the energy to decide to reedit a text which is "more or less OK," perhaps we ought to give some thought to the validity, textually speaking, of the editions which are being further enshrined as "THE" text through computerization. jonathan silk From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Mon May 20 03:01:05 1996 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 12:01:05 +0900 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024710.23782.17817089527714738072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 7:29 PM 96.5.17 +0100, Birgit Kellner wrote: >Anyway, thank you for the reference. And: Would there, by any chance, be a >Japanese translation of the revered Neugebauer-book? O. Negebauer, _The Exact Sciences in Antiquity_, 2nd edition, Brown University 1957. Reprinted, Dover 1969. Japanese translation: _Kodai no seimitsu kagaku_, translated by M. Yano and Saito, Tokyo: Kouseisha Kouseikaku (the date I do not remember now). This is indeed a standard work to be read by any person who is interested in ancient astronomy and mathematics but it does not deal much with astrology. As a nice introduction to ancient and medieval astrology, I would recommend Pingree's article in _Dictionary of the History of Ideas -- Studies of Selected Pivotal Ideas, ed. by Philip P. Wiener, et al. (Charles Scribners Sons 1968, 1973). Its Japanese translation, if you prefer, will be found in _Chi no matorikusu_, Hisutorii obu aidhiazu 9, Tokyo: Heibonsha 1987. Hayashi From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon May 20 12:10:40 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 12:10:40 +0000 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024717.23782.16465245206377206728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 8 May 1996, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > It is certain that Sanskrit grammarians never made a distinction between > synchronic and diachronic aspects of language change. It was becasuse > they all, including Panini, considered Sanskrit to be eternal and > unchanging. How do you know what Panini thought? He doesn't say anything about his beliefs concerning the general nature of language in his sutras. And what one can deduce obliquely from some of his methods and assumptions is extremely limited. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon May 20 12:31:24 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 12:31:24 +0000 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024718.23782.16176620688793344379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should like to thank all those who helped me with the meaning of "tailapaayin". I have also now found the word in MW! Can't think how I missed it before. "Cockroach" seems to be the consensus, though in my list from the Kaa"sysapasa.mhitaa it is smack in the middle of an unambiguous list of birds (or at least "pak.siis"), and other references suggest a bird too. Ho hum. That leaves "bholantikaa" ... :-) Again, many thanks. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon May 20 13:04:13 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:04:13 +0000 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024720.23782.4415646932288581767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Swami Gitananda wrote: [...] > It seems to me they are rather creative ways of unfolding meanings > inherent in a term. [...] Well, I agree with everything up to the word "inherent". The kind of non-historical reflections on the meanings of words that we are discussing may be extremely interesting and revealing, etc., etc. But that doesn't alter the fact that they are not historically correct. To say, for example, that a "person" is so called because in the modern consumerist world everyone has his or her "purse-on" in order to buy more consumer products may be useful in the context of a Marxist sermon. But what we learn from this has everything to do with the views of the person giving the sermon, and nothing to do with historical philology. The "sermonic" meaning is not "inherent" in the word "person" in any historically meaningful way, but rather in a symbolic and allusive way, generated in present time from the free associative reflections of the speaker. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From gat4 at columbia.edu Mon May 20 17:55:44 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:55:44 -0400 Subject: [Q]jyoti.h'saastra - what is "catarchic"? Message-ID: <161227024732.23782.4762682861116802095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 19 May 1996, Birgit Kellner wrote: > > [...] > To the "shared across several civilizations"-argument: If one and the same > body of knowledge is shared across several civilizations, there is no > particular reason why one language should be preferable to another. The only > reason why one doesn't retain the original Sanskrit is that not many people > in one's readership will be likely to understand Sanskrit. Add to which, I > am sure that even an Indological field which is indebted to Greek ancestors > has certain peculiarities and idiosyncracies, which would be hidden by a > consistent (unexplained) use of Greek terminology. So I can't really see why > the history of Jyoti.h'saastra would be different from that of other > disciplines, grammar or philosophy. [...] Although these remarks were made in response to a general question raised by Allen Thrasher, some readers might assume that the procedure described here---dropping Sanskrit terminology and consistently using unexplained Greek terminology---is the one used in the book being discussed in this thread, David Pingree's _Jyoti.h'saastra_. It is not. In Pingree's book the genres of texts being described are nearly always referred to by their Sanskrit names alone, except in the titles of the chapters into which his descriptions are organized and in the passages explaining the use of those titles. The chapter titles are in English. For the first and last chapter they borrow Sanskrit terms for which there is no unambiguous English word. The titles of the other chapters, like most of the technical vocabulary of English, are indeed derived from Greek words ("Astronomy," "Mathematics," etc.) or from Latin ones ("Interrogations," "Divination"), without implying in themselves that the things referred to were first spoken of in Greek or in Latin. In his Introduction, Pingree explains that the types of relevant literature clearly identifiable as genres with Sanskrit names have grown in number and variety beyond the simple scheme of three broad categories named in the ancient list of the three _skandha_s of the tradition. Accordingly he has attempted, as he puts it, "to establish a more accurate classification of the areas of _jyoti.h'saastra_ actually made the subject of independent works," which he has done by grouping them according to subject matter. Somewhat ironically, one of the reasons why this approach proves useful is that some of the Indian distinctions have been more historical than topical. For example, the Sanskrit genres of jaataka and taajika differ from each other mostly in their origin and vocabulary: the jaataka texts were originally based on Greek sources and make extensive use of Greek terminology, while the taajika texts are adaptations of Arabic and Persian works and make extensive use of Arabic terminology. But both types of texts address the same general subject matter, the casting of natal horoscopes. Pingree groups them together in a single chapter, producing a grouping that I think is quite useful in coming to grips with the overall corpus of Jyoti.h'saastra texts. Yet it would be unfair to apply the Sanskrit name of either genre to a category comprehending them both. Where the English term is one whose basic meaning is adequately clear from everyday use, such as "astronomy" or "mathematics," Pingree has used the term fairly frequently in describing the contents of specific types of Sanskrit works. But where it is an obscure term he has been careful to use it only in passages introducing the relevant Sanskrit genres, and to define the English term when first used. For example, the term "Interrogations," serving as the title of the chapter dealing with pra'sna literature, is used in the text of Pingree's book only in the first sentence of that chapter, where the term is explained and the Sanskrit equivalent is specified. Everywhere else only the Sanskrit term is used. This thread of discussion was prompted by "Catarchic Astrology," the title of the chapter in which Pingree deals not only with the general science of determining the proper time for undertaking activities, called "muhuurta" in Sanskrit, but also with the more specific texts dealing with determining the times for military expeditions ("yaatraa") and weddings ("vivaaha"). The latter two enterprises are logically simply special applications of the same science, but in the literature they tend to be covered in separate treatises---a good example of why Pingree has chosen to retain the Sanskrit names for such genres in his text while grouping them in chapters for which it is appropriate to provide other names. As far as I know, Pingree has used the term "catarchic astrology" only three times in his text. Takao Hayashi has already noted the passage in the chapter on "Catarchic Astrology" where that term is explained and equated in general with the science of muhuurta. The second time it is used is in turning to the topic of the subtypes of yaatraa and vivaaha in the same chapter. And the third time is in the opening sentence of the next chapter, on "Interrogations," where Pingree looks back to the previous grouping and contrasts it with the next: '' In catarchic astrology the _jyoti.sii_ determines for his client the '' moment (_muhuurta_) at which it is most propitious for him to '' undertake a specific act; in interrogations (_pra'sna_) he responds '' to a query about some aspect of the client's life on the basis of the '' horoscope of the moment of the query. Here the English terms---which have been used as labels in a scheme explicitly presented as Pingree's own arrangement of the mass of genres covered---are explained clearly, and in a way that is very far removed from anything approaching the abandonment of the received Sanskrit terminology. I feel the result is to provide the reader with a better understanding of the Sanskrit names, rather than to supplant them. From Leofacq at msn.com Mon May 20 14:25:34 1996 From: Leofacq at msn.com (Leo Facq) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 14:25:34 +0000 Subject: FW: A Bookreference Message-ID: <161227024725.23782.156100738607283877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mrs.Harzer, Many thanks for the reference. We have written to the Center to order a copy of the book. Yours Faithfully Leofacq at msn.com ---------- From: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk on behalf of edeltraud harzer clear Sent: vrijdag 17 mei 1996 1:54 To: Members of the list Subject: Re: FW: A Bookreference Dear Leo, the full title is DEVAVAA.NIPRAVEZIKAA. An Introduction to the Sanskrit Language. (2nd edition, revised) Robert Goldman and Sally Sutherland (his wife) published by Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies 1987. Available from this center=same name + Publications Program, 2223 Fulton St., 3rd Floor University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA. Good luck, Edeltraud Harzer Clear, Indiana University, Bloomington,USA. > > > ---------- > From: Leo > Sent: woensdag 1 mei 1996 17:41 > To: 'indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk' > Subject: A Bookreference > > Dear Indologists, > > I'm currently looking for the following book "Devavaa.niipravezikaa" by > Goldman and (second name unknown to me). > Could anyone give me full references on this book, which I need to acquire > ASAP. Please list publisher , ISN number (if available) and possibly a > bookshop I can order it from, preferably in Europe > > Many Thanks ahead, > Leo Facq > leofacq at msn.com > > From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Mon May 20 13:37:33 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 14:37:33 +0100 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024723.23782.17791558819456656636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >Well, I agree with everything up to the word "inherent". The kind of >non-historical reflections on the meanings of words that we are discussing >may be extremely interesting and revealing, etc., etc. But that doesn't >alter the fact that they are not historically correct. This is a bit clearer to me now. The 'traditional point of view' is replete with such ahistorical (I prefer this word to 'non-historical') etymologies. The exact philosophy of historical philologists is not very transparent, though. Could Dominik, and the other paNDitas, please examine one concrete example of a 'culturally charged' word like raama, say? How do you analyse this word? Thanks in advance. This whole discussion is quite fascinating! :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Mon May 20 18:37:49 1996 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 14:37:49 -0400 Subject: Images of India and Indian in School Text-books Message-ID: <161227024734.23782.16940928005666150037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought members of this newsgroup may be interested in knowing a recent publication that deals with Indian (steretypical) images in British school text-books: Title: Britannia's Children: Reading Colonialism Through Children's Books and Magazines Author: Katheryn Castle Lecturer in History University of North London Publ: University of Manchester Date: March 1996 Comment: The subject of images of India and Indians in school texts, literary works and other print and visual media has previously been dealt with several authors; among others, the following (some with a Canadian slant, 3ff.) may be of some interest to members of this group: 1. Asia in American Textbooks; an evaluation. Asia Society, N.Y., 1976. 2. Isaacs, Harold R. Images of Asia: American Views of China and India. [Alternate title: Scratches on Our Mind]. Capricorn Books, N.Y., 1958. 3. Jessop, Deborah. "Images and stereotypes of India in Ontario Secondary School Resources", unpublished thesis, University of Windsor, 1979. 4. Nelson, G.W.C. A Review of all Textbooks listed in Circular 14 for the purpose of identifying bias or prejudice towards ethnic groups... Ministry of Education, Toronto, June 1970. 7. Rosenstock, Janet and Dennis Adair. Multiculturalism in the Classroom: A Survey of Inter-racial attitudes in Ontario Schools. Secretary of State, Govt. of Ontario, Toronto, 1976. Of course Udayon Misra's _The Raj in Fiction: A Study of Nineteenth-Century British Attitudes Towards India_ is also relevant in this discussion. Postscript ^^^^^^^^^^ Just the other day I happen to notice a slim volume in a school library. It is called _Humorous Poetry for Children" edited by William Cole and illustrated by Ervine Metzel (The World Publishing Co., Cleveland and New York, 1955). Here is a quatrain that appears on page 25 with an illustration: I'm a little Hindoo, I do all I kindoo, Where my pants and shirts don't meet I make my little skindoo. Then there is a short poem on page 102, by the same title as the first line of the poem, by Wlater Parke: There was a young prince in Bombay, Who always would have his own way; He pampered his horses On five or six courses, Himself eating nothing by hay. On page 101 is Preston Newman's "Some Questions to be asked of a Rajah, perhaps by the Associated Press", (An Exchange, for One Voice Only) What's the greeting for a rajah riding on an elephant? Howdah? Howdah, Mistah Rajah, what's the weather like up there? Clowdah? And, oh, Mistah Rajah, how does it feel to swing and sway _without_ Sammy Kaye? What saye? Come lowdah? And how does the rajah make an elephant staye exactly where he wants him to? With an ankus? Or do you tie a little rope around his anklus, so if anybody creeps up behind and shouts "Boo!" he still won't run awaye? Yoo doo? And lastly, Mistah Rajah, who takes care of the elephant when the rajah's not about? A mahout? Thanku. Rajah, over and out. However, the most stereotypical may be an annonymous poem called 'NIRVANA'. It is rather a long poem (as compared to the one quoted above), so I hesitate to reproduce it here. If someone is interested in obtaining a copy I would be happy to oblige. BTW I would be interested in knowing, and surely in reading, a review of _Britannia's Children_ in this newsgroup. This book however has bee reviewd in _The Guardian_ (9 April 1996) by Peter Kingston; and in the Evening Standard (29 March 1996) by Natalie Clarke. CC: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon May 20 18:45:44 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 14:45:44 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024736.23782.10006429626216339012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree, of course (after all, he was my teacher!) with Madhav on the value of "folk etymology." On the other hand, I think he does not mean to propose that we take, for example, _bhinnakle"sa_, as a helpful etymology of bhik.su. This is a standard "explanation" of the term, but does it really deserve more credit than the historical etymology? -- Or perhaps I have misunderstood the point (as so often happens ;-)). jonathan From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon May 20 23:02:37 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 16:02:37 -0700 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024749.23782.3110476991326140399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary Tubb wrote : > On Mon, 20 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > > [...] > > The "sermonic" meaning is not "inherent" in the word "person" in any > > historically meaningful way, but rather in a symbolic and allusive way, > > generated in present time from the free associative reflections of the > > speaker. > > Sounds like asatkaaryavaada to me. In this specific case, it is more like adhyAsa than like asatkAryavAda. A "sermonic" meaning that is not inherent to "person" is superimposed upon "person" in order to serve the purposes of sermonizing. S. Vidyasankar From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 20 21:26:32 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 17:26:32 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024741.23782.10464421063231065930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In some of the previous messages, there was a useful discussion of whether the use of the term 'etymology' is causing some of our confusion. Obviously, in terms of what we normally consider etymology in the strict sense of the word, the fanciful explanations do not provide us etymologies. However, what does the strict etymology of the word bhik.su provide us with: ya.h bhik.sate sa bhik.su.h. This would be perfectly Paninian bhik.s+u (cf. rule: sanaa"samsabhik.sa u.h). However, this offers the most pedestrian value to the Buddhist: everybody who begs for alms is a bhik.su. The Buddhist tradition would like to see some higher values expressed as the core-values for monkhood. Those higher core values are expressed through the traditional Buddhist nirvacanas of the word bhik.su such as bhinnakle"sa or samsaare bhayam iik.sate. The urge to extract these core-values by playing with the phonology of the word is as old as Yaaska's Nirukta. This urge is, in my opinion, ultimately linked with the belief that a word/name is linked to an object on the basis of some essential property which is conveyed by that word. [Kaatyaayana provides the first clear formulation of this notion in describing the meaning of the affix -tva : yasya hi gu.nasya bhaavaat dravye "sabdanive"sas tasyaabhidhaane tva-talau] While Yaaska's nirvacanas express this through his use of 'kasmaat', the later philosophers use terms like "sakyataavacchedaka or prav.rttinimitta : the property or characteristic which motivates the use of a given word with reference to a given object. If one is not particularly thrilled with the pedestrian values which most accurate etymologies provide, one was forced to come up with creative ways to extract one's higher values from the sounds of the same word. This probably made the use of a given word seem even more appropriate. It is in this sense, that the Buddhist nirvacanas of bhik.su as bhinnakle"sa or samsaare bhayam iik.sate provide us a better understanding of what the Buddhists are trying to convey. An ideal bhik.su should rather be bhinnakle"sa etc., than a mere agent of the action of begging as Panini would have it. A very useful distinction in terminology is made in Sanskrit texts which is of some value in this connection. The term vyutpatti-nimitta is contrasted with the term prav.rttinimitta. The first term refers to the 'strict etymological meaning' while the second term refers to the factors which guide the actual use of an expression. For example, we are told that the word gau.h (cow/bull) is derived from the root gam 'to go' by adding the agentive affix 'o'. However, this explanation offers us only the vyutpattinimitta 'the etymological meaning', and does not tell us how the word is used. For that, we must move on to the prav.rttinimitta of the word. If we are glued to the vyutpattinimitta alone, all those who go will be referred to by the word gau.h, and a cow that is sitting down will not be a gau.h. The 'fanciful' nirvacanas are often deliberate ways of overtly marking the intended prav.rttinimitta in a specific context. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 20 May 1996 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote: > I agree, of course (after all, he was my teacher!) with Madhav on the value > of "folk etymology." On the other hand, I think he does not mean to propose > that we take, for example, _bhinnakle"sa_, as a helpful etymology of bhik.su. > This is a standard "explanation" of the term, but does it really deserve more > credit than the historical etymology? -- Or perhaps I have misunderstood the > point (as so often happens ;-)). > > jonathan > > From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon May 20 22:27:38 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 18:27:38 -0400 Subject: Q: Westerners taking away manuscripts Message-ID: <161227024744.23782.2670818914930145687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just read the note by Peter D. Banos in which he talks about forcing sounds into another language -- with perhaps minimal sense. I think Madhav did not respond to this (but I was not strictly paying attention), but he recalled stories of his childhood in Pathshala of interpreting Marathi sentences according strictly to Panini to "prove" they were in fact Sanskrit. Or, Madhav, have I screwed up the story? (No doubt a fantastic and fun way to familiarize oneself with the sutras). JAS From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Mon May 20 22:48:19 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 18:48:19 -0400 Subject: Ancient Indian Astronomy Texts Message-ID: <161227024754.23782.8540618189917620526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> to: Indology Re. the question of ancient Indian astronomy Unless I have missed, few people have mentioned Winternitz, particularly his statements on ancient Indian astronomy in his _History of Indian Literature_. Is he or his work not relevant these days? In addition to various sources already mentioned by several other posters I have always found Winternitz of some value when required to seek some information on an ancient Indian topic; so is the case with the issue of astronomy. "The idea of drawing conclusion on the chronology of the earliest Indian literature with the assistance of _astronomical_data", says Winternitz, "is no new one" (vol. 1, p. 294). "The priests of ancient India, who had to determine the times of sacrifice, were, like the pontifices in ancient Rome, at the same time almanac-makers. They had to observe the firmament, in order to regulate and predetermine the times of sacrifice. Hence we find numerous astronomical and calendar data in the Bra+hmana.as and Su+tras. In these, the so-called Naks.atras or 'lunar mansions' play a particularly prominent part" (ibid.). In Vol. 3, Part 2 of his work, in a section specifically dealing with 'Astronomy, Astrology and Mathematics' (pp. 641-653 ff.), Winternitz adds numerous references/footnotes to ancient Indian astronomical works, e.g.: _Ga+rgi-Sa.mhita+ (Vr.ddha)_, _Pus.karasa+din_, the _Naks.atra-kalpa_, _Su+riyapan.n.atti_ (an astronomical Upa+.nga of the Jains), in addition to _Su+ryasiddha+nta_ (known to Albe+ru+ni+) etc. Winternitz also mentions the names of some ancient Indian astronomers, e.g., La+t.a, Si.mha, Padyumna, Vijayanandin and A+rya-bhat.a (p. 648), Vara+hamihira, Bha+skaraca+rya, Brahmagupta (p. 650), and provides brief destriptions of their extant works. I thought the foregoing information may of interest to some Indology Netters interested in ancient Indian astronomy. Sushil Jain From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Mon May 20 22:53:52 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 18:53:52 -0400 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024746.23782.6467795387554271685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S. COUSINS wrote on the threelectronic Pali Tipitakaversions: > 1. Mahidol University (Thailand) with the DOS program BUDSIR. > This is the Thai script version of the Pali Canon and Commentaries.... > some errors... data encrypted.... no > cross-references to PTS page numbers > 2. IBRIC (Sri Lanka) > This is the 'free' version, based upon the edition in Sinhala script. Only > the Canon... freeware ...for searching on the Mac ... does contain > references to PTS editions ... still an uncorrected version. You > can of course put the texts on your hard drive. > > 3. Dhammakaaya Foundation (Thailand) > ... based upon the PTS edition of the Canon. It includes a DOS version > of a search program with various facilities. (Searching 1) by word or > phrase; 2) by page and line; 3) context; 4) word index to the Canon.) Due > out in June. > A more advanced version for Windows together with the > Commentaries is promised for December 1997 and a Mac version soon after > that. NB: SEE SEPARATE, forthc. ANNOUNCEMENT on this list. : > > I think the people publishing CDROM versions for money > >have failed dramatically to evaluate the publishing situation correctly. > I don't think it is as simple as this. Even when the final versions are out > (and others to come?), textual scholars will find the differences between > the Thai, Sinhala and Roman editions important (and useful). OF COURSE: and not just "textual scholars" but anybody who has worked a little bit with Pali texts knows that there are a lot of textual/transmission problems in the texts. <>.This is not the Rgveda which has come down orally/written without (almost) any changes. As O. v. Hinueber has frequently shown, the Pali Canon has been subject to constant redactorial change even late in this millennium. Clearly, it makes a difference, e.g., if a king deals, in matters of state, with caara "spies" or cora "thieves"... (even if tax officials anywhere seem to combine both aspects). Anybody who wants to work with a reliable text has to make use of the 4 versions represented by the PTS editions and which are now available on the new CD-ROM (Sinhala, Burmese, Thai and Cambodian) -- though, unfortunately, it now comes with a price tag of $150, differently from the original intent of the Dhammakaya Foundation (as announced in Sept. 93). This version also has the avantage that it allows to search for other mistakes of the type described above (cora/caara) -- and that will allow you to solve your textual problems more easily as you will find plenty of evidence of such mistakes. In short: scholars who pay attention to the *exact* wording of the text need *this* electronic version. If you are content, however, with just having *any* version (to have a rough idea of the text/context) you can use the electronic Sinhala or Thai versions or just use the printed 5-6 versions. (In that case, as has been pointed out by others, you will loose some time in finding the corresponding PTS version.) > I agree > that when IBRIC completes their work this may be the most useful starting > point for many people. Of course, prices of the other two may come down or > even disappear eventually. WE HOPE SO, and cf. the original Dhammakaya announcemnet of Sept. 93... > One needs to remember that these are mostly volunteer projects and there > may be limits as to what they are capable of doing initially. THAT remains to be seen. I know that the 400 Dhammakaya volunteers have typed in the text with (very) good accuracy. Since then, the texts have been proofread several times. They also have typed in commentaries and *other* very useful materials. It remains to be seen what the PTS will allow on CD. > The PTS obviously has a right to seek to protect its market (particularly > that to libraries). That might be so. The copyright question, however, is moot.I wonder how you can claim copyright on, say Oldenberg's ed. of the Vinaya made a hundred years ago, when the PTS began to copyright its texts only in the Sixties... Let some clever British lawyers figure that out. > I suspect myself that they are worrying unnecessarily > but it is certainly important to be able to continue to produce new Pali > texts and translations. Yes, find some other way. And remember that Oldenberg etc. gave their work free... to have the texts available for scholarship (etc.). A hundred years ago that was by printing them, but now...... Or, to be more radical: Since we (almost all of us) type our new texts and translations we can as well put them on a server somewhere and get rid of overpriced publications (especially in some EUROPEAN COUNTRIES)..... Let us return to this topic 10 years from now... M. Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit Harvard University 617-495 3295 witzel at husc3.harvard.edu From Hrid at aol.com Mon May 20 23:44:23 1996 From: Hrid at aol.com (Hrid at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 19:44:23 -0400 Subject: [Q] bholantikaa, tailapaayin Message-ID: <161227024751.23782.12529158547800881024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Dominik's musings on the apparent cockroach listed as a pak.sin, I have observed in many tropical countries a kind of large flying cockroach that certainly has wings. Thus it is technically a pak.sin, a winged creature. I thought this might help. Best wishes, Howard Resnick Sanskrit, Harvard U. From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tue May 21 06:30:09 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in) Date: Mon, 20 May 96 23:30:09 -0700 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024756.23782.11062415605751287070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there an equivalent in Sanskrit to TolkAppiyam which says: ellAccollum poruL kuRittanavE (Tol. Peya.1) "All words are semantic indicators." Phonetics and semantics do intermingle in fanciful ways as a society finds the need for expressing 'enlarged' thoughts? or to absorb 'sermons' from paNDitas? Regards. Kalyanaraman >Gary Tubb wrote : > >> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >> > >> > [...] >> > The "sermonic" meaning is not "inherent" in the word "person" in any >> > historically meaningful way, but rather in a symbolic and allusive way, >> > generated in present time from the free associative reflections of the >> > speaker. >> >> Sounds like asatkaaryavaada to me. > >In this specific case, it is more like adhyAsa than like asatkAryavAda. A >"sermonic" meaning that is not inherent to "person" is superimposed upon >"person" in order to serve the purposes of sermonizing. > >S. Vidyasankar > > > > From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tue May 21 07:06:57 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 00:06:57 -0700 Subject: Etymology or Niruktam in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227024758.23782.7178578019549123193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the equivalent for 'etymology' , niruktam, as it was understood in Yaska's time? Kittel's Kannada dictionary explains nirukta = uttered, explained; one of the vedAngas. Etymology was apparently of fundamental value in understanding the orally transmitted vedic texts; its 'historicity' seems to have been secondary. According to Turner's headword, nirukta means 'spoken out, loud, distinct' (ZatapathabrAhmaNa) In Old Gujarati, the lexeme niruta connotes: 'clear, decided' in Marathi, niruten 'certainly'; in MBH. nirukti = explanation of a word; this is expanded further in Old Gujarati: nirati = news. Searching for the word in Tamil lexemes provides: nira = to arrange in order; nirai= to arrange in succession; Kannada, niRuge, niRege = putting down, orderly arrangement. If phonetics and semantics from texts can be arranged in an orderly way, etyma result? Regards, Kalyanaraman From MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Tue May 21 09:23:05 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in (MDSAAA48 at giasmd01.vsnl.net.in) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 02:23:05 -0700 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024760.23782.2126330403025960200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, Followint this thread of discussion, may I raise a query on Yaska? Are there any works which explain WHY Yaska indulged in what appear to us today (at this distance in time) to be 'fanciful' etymologies? Niruktam was deemed to be a vEdAnga, an important part of the curriculum. Why would Yaska mislead with 'folk' or 'syllabic' extravaganzas? Thanks in advance. Regards, Kalyanaraman >Hi, > >>Well, I agree with everything up to the word "inherent". The kind of >>non-historical reflections on the meanings of words that we are discussing >>may be extremely interesting and revealing, etc., etc. But that doesn't >>alter the fact that they are not historically correct. > >This is a bit clearer to me now. The 'traditional point of view' is replete >with such ahistorical (I prefer this word to 'non-historical') etymologies. >The exact philosophy of historical philologists is not very transparent, >though. > >Could Dominik, and the other paNDitas, please examine one concrete example of >a 'culturally charged' word like raama, say? How do you analyse this word? >Thanks in advance. > >This whole discussion is quite fascinating! :-) > >Bye, > >Girish Beeharry > > > From magier at columbia.edu Tue May 21 13:23:08 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 09:23:08 -0400 Subject: Kahrs publications Message-ID: <161227024764.23782.17879041096575212997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 May 1996, Professor Georg von Simson (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) wrote: > I should like to draw your attention to the publications of Eivind > Kahrs (Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.)... > "Substitution and change. Foundations of traditional Indian > hermeneutics." (Oslo 1996). Is the latter to be published as a monograph this year? Please give all relevant bibliographic details, so that we can acquire it. Thanks. David Magier Columbia University magier at columbia.edu From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue May 21 18:27:54 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:27:54 -0700 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024769.23782.13008433272553302955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 May 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > ... what does the strict etymology of the word bhik.su > provide us with: ya.h bhik.sate sa bhik.su.h. This would be perfectly > Paninian bhik.s+u (cf. rule: sanaa"samsabhik.sa u.h). However, this > offers the most pedestrian value to the Buddhist: everybody who begs for > alms is a bhik.su. The Buddhist tradition would like to see some higher > values expressed as the core-values for monkhood. Those higher core > values are expressed through the traditional Buddhist nirvacanas of the > word bhik.su such as bhinnakle"sa or samsaare bhayam iik.sate. The urge > to extract these core-values by playing with the phonology of the word is > as old as Yaaska's Nirukta. This urge is, in my opinion, ultimately > linked with the belief that a word/name is linked to an object on the > basis of some essential property which is conveyed by that word. > [Kaatyaayana provides the first clear formulation of this notion in > describing the meaning of the affix -tva : yasya hi gu.nasya bhaavaat > dravye "sabdanive"sas tasyaabhidhaane tva-talau] While Yaaska's nirvacanas > express this through his use of 'kasmaat', the later philosophers use > terms like "sakyataavacchedaka or prav.rttinimitta : the property or > characteristic which motivates the use of a given word with reference to a > given object. If one is not particularly thrilled with the pedestrian > values which most accurate etymologies provide, one was forced to come up > with creative ways to extract one's higher values from the sounds of the > same word. This probably made the use of a given word seem even more > appropriate. It is in this sense, that the Buddhist nirvacanas of bhik.su > as bhinnakle"sa or samsaare bhayam iik.sate provide us a better > understanding of what the Buddhists are trying to convey. An ideal > bhik.su should rather be bhinnakle"sa etc., than a mere agent of > the action of begging as Panini would have it. > > > Madhav Deshpande The recent postings on the subject of etymology have given the discussion an interesting anti historical-etymological slant. I fail to see why etymologies are "pedestrian," as prof. Deshpande describes them. I find it interesting, for example, that Skt. deshin (the index finger) is a cognate of latin index, where both mean the same thing: the finger that points. They are, in turn, also related to English "teach," as teaching implies pointing out something. They all are derived from the same Indo-European root deik (Skt. dish). This is very helpful in understanding how meanings either remain the same or are transformed. That there is often a difference (big or small) between the etymological meaning of a term and its use at a certain moment and place was recognized by Sanskrit grammarians, and is also common knowledge in linguistics. To take an example from astronomy/astrology, which is where this discussion started anyway, how many people are aware that a disaster is a dis astrum, that is, what happens when one does not heed the stars? So, yes, it is the usage of a term that defines its meaning at a certain point, and this meaning can stray far from its etymological origin (although the connection can usually be seen). But if what we are after is extracting a "higher value" for a term, the situation is somewhat different. We are, then, in a way switching from a descriptive to a prescriptive mode. There is a difference between a meaning acquired in time through usage, and an imposed meaning meant to convey an idea or a belief. This may serve as a didactic tool, and it may reinforce the particular belief, but it has nothing to do with the origin of the word. If we are using these "etymologies" to understand these particular beliefs, that is, of course, useful. But, as I mentioned in an earlier posting, they are often used purporting to be the original meaning, and they can be misleading when one is not studying/trying to understand/practicing that particular set of beliefs. Take the word yoga. Almost anybody who starts taking some classes nowadays will be told that yoga means union, because its aim is the union of the Atman (the individual soul) with Brahman (the Supreme soul), or, at least, the union of the two opposites represented by puruSa and prkRti. This person will probably also read some of PataNjali's sUtras in this light. But did yoga mean union for PataNjali? Quite the contrary we might say, for the aim of his yoga (in the sense of practice) was a state of kaivalya, isolation, in which puruSa, the soul, becomes aware of the fact that it is different from prakRti, nature. Although this is not really a folk etymology, as it does rely on one of the meanings of the verbal root, it still involves using one of the meanings of the term (with a Vedantic interpretation) and superimposing it on earlier texts where the meaning was different. Without a historical analysis, this would not become clear. Both diacronic and synchronic studies are valuable, it just depends on what we are studying, and from what perspective. Sincerely, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue May 21 11:04:35 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 13:04:35 +0200 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies (was re. dating) Message-ID: <161227024762.23782.15677674726845362127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, I should like to draw your attention to the publications of Eivind Kahrs (Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.), because he is one of those who have studied the problem of YAska and Indian etymologies most thoroughly in recent times: "YAska's use of kasmAt", Indo-Iranian Journal 25 (1983), 231-237; "YAska's nirukta: the quest for a new interpretation", Indologica Taurinensia 12 (1984), 139-154; "What is a tadbhava word", Indo-Iranian Journal 35 (1992), 225-249. Kahrs has also written his doctoral dissertation on the same topic: "Substitution and change. Foundations of traditional Indian hermeneutics." (Oslo 1996). This will be, I hope, be published in due course. In all these publications Kahrs warns against taking Indian etymologies according to the western model of history of language (the historical perspective is absent in Panini's system). He suggests instead a substitutional model (based on the use of the genitive for substitutional purposes in PA?ini's grammar). Best regards Georg v. Simson > >Followint this thread of discussion, may I raise a query on Yaska? > >Are there any works which explain WHY Yaska indulged in what appear to us >today (at this distance in time) to be 'fanciful' etymologies? > >Niruktam was deemed to be a vEdAnga, an important part of the curriculum. > >Why would Yaska mislead with 'folk' or 'syllabic' extravaganzas? > >Thanks in advance. > >Regards, Kalyanaraman > Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue May 21 20:06:26 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 16:06:26 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies Message-ID: <161227024771.23782.203291196029497664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion of "fanciful etymologies" has been informative, especially with the addition of the references to recent work on etymologies made by Profs. von Simson and Houben. It has become clear that we are talking about several different things here. I have found Houben's distinction between "hermeneutic etymologies" and "linguistic (/historical) etymologies" particularyl helpful. Since no one has responded to my claim that the so-called "fanciful etymologies" are related to puns [particularly in the RV], perhaps I may be indulged with an example from the BrAhmaNas. At AB 24.5 a rather extraordinary "etymology" is offered. Reference is made there to the "'ka' in 'karma.'" I will not go into the long history of puns on the interrogative pronoun 'ka.' Instead, I would look again at the analysis of 'karma' that is suggested here: 'ka-rma.' That this is not simply a "fanciful etymology" or even a "wrong analysis" of the term 'karma' is evident, I would suggest, from the fact that the second element in the analysis 'rma' defies Sanskrit morphophonology. In other words, this is *not* the kind of "mistake" that a native speaker of Sanskrit would make. It is, rather, I would suggest, a pun. I have no trouble calling this "hermeneutic etymology", insofar as the passage reflects an effort at interpretation. But when a poet [e.g. MedhAtithi KANva, at RV 1.16] suggests a semantic association between 'st?ma' and 's?ma' by juxtaposing the words in his hymn, this is not hermeneutics, or interpretation. It is, to use Thieme's term, "Sprachmalerei." The suggestion that Soma is "liquid praise", which this hymn generates and reinforces very skillfully, is creative and poetic, rather than "hermeneutic." Of course, I am using the term 'pun' very broadly here, like the use of it that is made by the theorists of the pun cited in my previous posting. It is not quite the same thing as classical zleSa. Sorry for the length of this. Sincerely, George Thompson From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Tue May 21 15:17:23 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 16:17:23 +0100 Subject: etymology in the Sanskrit tradition Message-ID: <161227024768.23782.2013270271698158229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear readers of the list, An important point which is disregarded in the recent Indology-forum discussion on ETYMOLOGIES in the Sanskrit tradition is that there are quite divergent attitudes towards these within this tradition itself. While I wonder whether the contrast between pre-Paninian (Niruktian) and post-Paninian is as strong as Wujastyk suggested (Thieme and Bronkhorst suggest that Yaska was really post-Paninian), there is a very clear and important contrast between etymologies provided in the Nirukta (which continues a trend started in the Brahmanas) and the attitude of the Mimamsakas towards etymologies. The etymologies provided in the Nirukta and the Brahmanas may be called "hermeneutic etymologies", serving to explain texts (including mantras) and rituals without any historical-linguistic claims. The use of "hermeneutic etymologies" as a literary/exegetic device is a near universal phenomenon in literary and oral traditions in the world. This term can be suggested to distinguish these clearly from the "linguistic (/historical) etymologies" of comparative and historical linguistics, which are practically absent in earlier traditions. Even if there is sometimes an overlap with linguistic etymologies, hermeneutic etymologies cannot count as such because they are pronounced in an entirely different context of intellectual and cultural aims and presuppositions. The term <> is not new, it has been used by P. Verhagen (context: Sanskrit in Tibet) and T. Goudriaan (context: Tantric etymologies) and probably by others. While texts like the Brahmanas claim that their <> reveal a <>, they belong merely to the arthavaadas (<>) according to the Mimamsakas, for whom they do not have a strong truth claim as they are subordinate to the vidhis (positive and negative) or injunctions. For Mimamsa the literal meaning of words and sentences in the Vedic literature is generally to be preferred to any indirect meaning which might be attributed to it. On etymologies in India see recently: Max Deeg, Die altindische Etymologie nach dem Verstaendnis Yaaska's und seiner Vorgaenger, Verlag J.H. Roell, 1995, who overemphasizes in my view <> aspects of the etymologies. The author's collection of pre-Yaaska etymologies is useful, and I like his references to the importance of <> in the work of modern thinkers like Heidegger. I would also like to refer to a forthcoming publication of myself, a contribution to The Emergence of Semantics in Four Literary Traditions, publisher: J. Benjamins. My own contribution deals with semantics in the Sanskrit tradition, three other contributions deal with the Greek, Arabic and Hebrew tradition. In all four traditions etymologies play an important role (though we do not use this term in the book, they are in fact all <>). Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow, International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, NL. (e-mail: jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL) >>>>>>Some time ago Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >The kind of etymologizing above that Girish suggests is fanciful is >characteristic of pre-Paninian thinking, especially in Yaska's Nirukta. and Madhav Deshpande << Such linguistically fanciful etymologies are critical for our understanding of the synchronic comprehension of those terms and concepts by the respective communities>> and Swami Gitananda asked for a better term to replace <> etc. From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue May 21 14:27:10 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 16:27:10 +0200 Subject: Kahrs publications Message-ID: <161227024766.23782.5124595333530416132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Magier asked about: >> Eivind Kahrs (Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.)... >> "Substitution and change. Foundations of traditional Indian >> hermeneutics." (Oslo 1996). > >Is the latter to be published as a monograph this year? Please give >all relevant bibliographic details, so that we can acquire it. I am sorry, I do not know when and where E. Kahrs will publish his dissertation. Why not ask him himself? Here is his address: Dr. Eivind G. Kahrs University of Cambridge Faculty of Oriental Studies Sidgwick Avenue Cambridge CB3 9DA U.K. His e-mail address is supposed to be: egk1000 at cam.ac.uk but I have not yet used it and do not know if it works. Best wishes, Georg v.Simson Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed May 22 00:39:09 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 17:39:09 -0700 Subject: Address of T. Oranskaya Message-ID: <161227024776.23782.6405434552261061050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone out there happen to have an e-mail or other address for T. Oranskaya in Russia (I'm not sure exactly where)? Rich Salomon From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed May 22 01:08:38 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:08:38 -0700 Subject: Ancient Indian Astronomy Texts Message-ID: <161227024780.23782.11753787229691809955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sushil Jain wrote: > > "The idea of drawing conclusion on the chronology of the earliest > Indian literature with the assistance of _astronomical_data", > says Winternitz... > > Sushil Jain Although more than a hundred years old, W.D. Whitney's article on the matter is still worth reading: "On the Jyotisha Observation of the Place of the Colures, and the Date Derivable from it." Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 1865:316-331. Sincerely, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue May 21 23:52:54 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 19:52:54 -0400 Subject: etymology in the Sanskrit tradition Message-ID: <161227024773.23782.15054553088505546597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben wrote: "On etymologies in India see recently: Max Deeg, Die altindische Etymologie nach dem Verstaendnis Yaaska's und seiner Vorgaenger, Verlag J.H. Roell, 1995, who overemphasizes in my view <> aspects of the etymologies...." Others have also emphasized the magical aspects of etymologies, in particular Jan Gonda in his classic study, "The Etymologies in the Ancient Indian BrAhmaNas" [reprinted in Selected Studies II], as well as T. Elizarenkova in her recent book, "Language and Style of the Vedic RSis." I am curious to know what this "over-emphasis" consists of. Sincerely, George Thompson From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed May 22 03:43:01 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 20:43:01 -0700 Subject: Seeking an address for Winand Callewaert Message-ID: <161227024781.23782.16737907702972563141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends: Can anyone on the list supply a correct e-mail address for Winand Callewaert? Thanks very much for your assistance. Frank Conlon Co-editor of H-ASIA University of Washington conlon at u.washington.edu From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 22 01:03:36 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:03:36 -0400 Subject: Pali Canon CD-ROM/ Dhammakaya announcement Message-ID: <161227024778.23782.1345775237715942319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since there has been some discussion about the merits and the price required by the Pali Text Society for the forthcoming Dhammakaya CD-ROM of the PTS Pali canon, I forward the complete Dhammakaya announcement in the sequel. -- Judge yourself! M.Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, Harvard U., 617- 495 3295 ------------------------------ Forwarded message ---------------------------- IT'S HERE...! PALITEXT CD-ROM version 1.0 After many years of work the Dhammakaya Foundation is pleased to announce that work on the computerization of the Pali Tipitaka (PTS version) has culminated in a complete database of the Canon - and this is presently been mastered for publication on CD-ROM. Similarly negotiations concerning permission from the PTS to publish Romanized Pali materials on CD-ROM have been successful and Prof. K.R. Norman travelled to Thailand to sign a memorandum of understanding with the Foundation on behalf of the PTS on the 22 April 1996. We expect to release version 1.0 of the database with supporting driver and search program compatible with MS-DOS in early June 1996. Palitext version 1.0 will incorporate the following features: * Compatible with MS-DOS * Efficient Searchg Methodologies Tipitaka Search and Find Functions by: - Keyword/Keyphrase - Alphabetic Word List - Page and Book Number - Prefix/Suffix Wildcard - Contextual Search * Optional Split Screen Display * Comparisons of up to thirteen Entry Contexts * Quick Function Keys * Mouse Support * Page-by-page print-out facility Despite the original intention of the Dhammakaya Foundation to distribute the Pali Tipitaka free of charge, as announced in our e-mail transmission of 14 September 1993, the logistics of the distribution of this database have proved sensative, and one of the conditions demanded by the Pali Text Society of having the database distributed at all is that a minimal charge be made for the disk. The Dhammakaya Foundation is now accepting orders for version 1.0 of the CD-ROM at the price of US$ 150.00. Please complete the order form below and send it together with payment to the address below. Checques and postal orders should be made payable to the 'DHAMMAKAYA FOUNDATION'. Order to: Mr. Nicholas Woods Dhammakaya Foundation: International Department Khlong Luang, Patumthani Thailand 12120 ______________________________cut here_______________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PALITEXT CD-ROM (ver.1.0) Order Form Full Name (underline surname) ----------------------------------------------- Home Address -------------------------Work Address ------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Telephone ------------------------------ Telephone--------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________________ Order to: Mr. Nicholas Woods, Dhammakaya Foundation: International Department, Khlong Luang, Patumthani Thailand 12120 From fp7 at columbia.edu Wed May 22 13:04:31 1996 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 09:04:31 -0400 Subject: Seeking an address for Winand Callewaert Message-ID: <161227024792.23782.15912548647425479770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 22 May 1996, Frank Conlon wrote: > Dear Friends: > > Can anyone on the list supply a correct e-mail address for Winand > Callewaert? Thanks very much for your assistance. > > Frank Conlon > Co-editor of H-ASIA > University of Washington > conlon at u.washington.edu > > I believe this is still current: good luck and a good summer, Fran Pritchett From FO4A004 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de Wed May 22 10:27:32 1996 From: FO4A004 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (QUESSEL.BURKHARD) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 10:27:32 +0000 Subject: Address of T. Oranskaya Message-ID: <161227024783.23782.1078484622502274393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Oranskaya is at the: Dept. of Indian Philology St. Petersburg University NUB 11 150034 St. Petersburg Russia She does not have her own e-mail address but she can be reached under: vladimir at orient.lgu.spb.su or sasha at kozintsev.spb.su ______________________________________________________ Burkhard Quessel Institut fuer Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Universitaet Hamburg D-20354 Hamburg - Germany Phone: +49-40-41236268 Fax: +49-40-41236267 e-mail: quessel at orientalistik.uni-hamburg.de ______________________________________________________ From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 22 11:35:11 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 12:35:11 +0100 Subject: Puns Message-ID: <161227024785.23782.7458699954877165163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a bibliographic reference to George Thompson's email on puns. The following might be interesting: R. Morton Smith, Unhumorous Puns in Ancient India. JIES, 1979. 7(1-2): p. 105-112. I found it quite interesting. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 22 11:57:31 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 12:57:31 +0100 Subject: Seeking an address for Winand Callewaert Message-ID: <161227024787.23782.15449623111538120815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Friends: > >Can anyone on the list supply a correct e-mail address for Winand >Callewaert? Thanks very much for your assistance. > Adress: Dept. of Oriental Studies Katholieke Universiteit Blijde Inkomststraat 21 email: Winand.Callewaert at arts.kuleuven.ac.be Best regards, Lars M. Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 22 12:24:36 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 14:24:36 +0200 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies Message-ID: <161227024790.23782.14823388323114842325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > It has become clear that we are talking about >several different things here. I have found Houben's distinction between >"hermeneutic etymologies" and "linguistic (/historical) etymologies" >particularly helpful. >Since no one has responded to my claim that the so-called "fanciful >etymologies" are related to puns [particularly in the RV], ... Among the "hermeneutical etymologies" there are certainly different varieties, from the serious interpretations of vedic words in the Brahmanas or of divine names in Hinduism (different attempts to explain Ziva's name Bhairava in Kashmir Zivaism are extensively discussed by Kahrs in his dissertation) to more humorous uses of etymologies for ideological and polemical purposes. Some nice examples of the latter kind can be found in the Agga~n~nasutta (DIghanikAya 27) of the Pali canon, where etymologies based on prakrit and not on sanskrit are used to defend the Buddhist view of society against the claims of the Brahmans. Interesting is also the historical perspective of the author, who asserts that some idiomatical expressions are no longer understood today but can be explained on the basis of the (mythical) history of mankind. The polemical etymologies of expressions designating the brahmans contain a kind of concise cultural history and culminate in the explanation of the term ajjhAyaka as designating those "who no longer meditate": na jhAyantIti (instead of the 'correct' derivation from sanskrit adhyAyaka, "reader", "one who is engaged in studying"). Here we meet a curious mixture of "historical" and "fanciful" etymologies whose seriousness - certainly not in all, but in some cases - remains somewhat doubtful. More about this in my article "Etymologie als Mittel ideologischer Auseinandersetzung: Bemerkungen zum Aggannasutta des Dighanikaya", in: P. Kosta (ed.), Studia Indogermanica et Slavica. Festgabe fuer Werner Thomas. Muenchen, 1988, p. 87-98. As this volume is not easily available, I can send a copy of the article to those who are interested (and read German!) on request. See also: Richard Gombrich, "Why is a khattiya called a khattiya? The Agganna Sutta revisited", in: Journal of the Pali Text Society 17 (1992), p. 213 f. Sincerely Georg v. Simson Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From LGoehler at aol.com Wed May 22 19:31:24 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 15:31:24 -0400 Subject: Borrowings Message-ID: <161227024796.23782.1389297165405565369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anand Venkt Raman wrote: >>I am also unaware that the Sanskrit grammarians ever made a >>synchronic/diachronic distinction beyond the primitive "bhasayam" and > >It is certain that Sanskrit grammarians never made a distinction between >synchronic and diachronic aspects of language change. It was because >they all, including Panini, considered Sanskrit to be eternal and >unchanging. According to R.E.Asher, it was this assumption that facilated >some of their breakthroughs which we are still able to learn from >today. > >- & > > According to my opinion the way Indian grammarians and philosophers describe language is essentially synchronic. For them language is a system of fixed relations that is considered as 'static', 'constant' (Words that are synonymous with 'synchronic' for Saussure). - For several reasons they were not interested in a diachronic perspective and consequently did not draw a distinction between diachronic and synchronic approach. To translate 'Nitya' as 'eternal' may be misleading in this context, because this translation suggests a historical perspective (together with all the Western connotations of history and eternality) that was not in the interest of the Indian grammarians. - If PANini had a diacronic view of language this would have rendered his whole work invalid sooner or later because what he says of Sanskrit grammar today will not be true tomorrow due to the historical development of language. This may have been one of the reasons for KAtyAyana to speak of the relationship of word and meaning as 'siddha', 'established' which Patanjali explains as 'nitya', 'constant'. It is true that this 'static' view of language facilated some breakthoughs in the theory and philosophy of language in India (as the introduction of synchronic view did in the West ) viz. the possibility of STRUCTURAL approaches that, according to Saussure, permits to describe 'coexisting terms' of language which was not possible by diacronic approaches. Dominik Wuyastyk wrote > The doctrine of sabdanityata and of the levels of >language etc. have to do not with depth in time, but with "depth in >consciousness" or perhaps "depth in linguistic abstraction", if I can use >those terms. - sounds more Chomskyan than Indian. Lars Goehler From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Wed May 22 17:45:45 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:45:45 +0100 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024794.23782.10767443572443983278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Witzel writes: >OF COURSE: and not just "textual scholars" but anybody who has worked a >little bit with Pali texts knows that there are a lot of >textual/transmission problems in the texts. <message>>.This is not the Rgveda which has come down orally/written >without (almost) any changes. Surely, most recensions of the Rgveda have not survived ? That at any rate was my impression, but I may have misunderstood. >As O. v. Hinueber has frequently shown, the >Pali Canon has been subject to constant redactorial change even late in >this millennium. This seems to me to be a considerable exaggeration and likely to be rather misleading to those who do not know the facts. To some extent, it depends what you are working on. If you are interested in the kind of thing that the tradition was interested in (e.g. abhidhamma), it is extremely rare to find any significant deviation and for most matters the text is firmly fixed by the commentarial tradition. If it concerns matters of other kinds, then sometimes the texts are less secure. Even so, this should not be exaggerated. A great many changes are editorial rather than substantial. (I don't believe von Hinueber would disagree with this.) Of course, it is still important to establish all the details. The difference with the Vedic texts, of course, is that the exact words of the Pali texts were relatively unimportant to the tradition; it was the Dhamma which they wanted to preserve. There was less of a tie with ritual and magical uses where the exact sound matters. >Anybody who wants to work with a reliable text has to make use of the 4 >versions represented by the PTS editions and which are now available on >the new CD-ROM (Sinhala, Burmese, Thai and Cambodian) I don't think that the PTS editions represent a kind of synthesis of the four versions. It varies greatly and for some texts only very few manuscripts were available. In a few cases only an oriental edition was available. I think everyone involved in Pali studies has long been aware that all the texts badly need systematic reediting. But we can't do that until the manuscripts are properly collected and available. Unfortunately that is nowhere in sight. And there simply isn't the man-power, given the extremely small numbers of available workers at present. There are of course more than four versions, since there are newer and older editions e.g. of the Thai and Sinhalese versions. Regional variations in various scripts are found in manuscript. Or, are you suggesting that the readings of the other four have now been added to the PTS edition for the Dhammakaya CD ? -- though, >unfortunately, it now comes with a price tag of $150, differently from the >original intent of the Dhammakaya Foundation (as announced in Sept. 93). To my knowledge, the Dhammakaaya Foundation's intent has varied a number of times during this period (and earlier). >This version also has the avantage that it allows to search for other >mistakes of the type described above (cora/caara) -- and that will allow >you to solve your textual problems more easily as you will find plenty of >evidence of such mistakes. In short: scholars who pay attention to the >*exact* wording of the text need *this* electronic version. > >If you are content, however, with just having *any* version (to have a >rough idea of the text/context) you can use the electronic Sinhala or Thai >versions or just use the printed 5-6 versions. (In that case, as has been >pointed out by others, you will loose some time in finding the >corresponding PTS version.) At the moment the advantage of the IBRIC version is that you can get the page references to both the PTS and the BJT editions simultaneously. Since in practice you have to check everything in the printed texts, this speeds up the process. Since the BJT edition is one of the most recent and was done with more of a critical sense than the earlier oriental editions, you can also find some useful variants cited from the Siamese editions and from the Burmese edition published in the 1950s and 60s (after the PTS editions). >> I agree >> that when IBRIC completes their work this may be the most useful starting >> point for many people. Of course, prices of the other two may come down or >> even disappear eventually. > >WE HOPE SO, and cf. the original Dhammakaya announcemnet of Sept. 93... > >> One needs to remember that these are mostly volunteer projects and there >> may be limits as to what they are capable of doing initially. > >THAT remains to be seen. I know that the 400 Dhammakaya volunteers have >typed in the text with (very) good accuracy. When I was shown the first phase in Bangkok in 1990, there were still a number of errors to a page. (I thought that to get to this point was already a considerable achievement.) >Since then, the texts have >been proofread several times. They also have typed in commentaries and >*other* very useful materials. It remains to be seen what the PTS will allow >on CD. The commentaries will be included in an updated version for Windows 'by December 1997'. So it is a question of Dhammakaya not being ready, rather than the PTS 'allowing'. >> The PTS obviously has a right to seek to protect its market (particularly >> that to libraries). > >That might be so. The copyright question, however, is moot.I wonder how you >can claim copyright on, say Oldenberg's ed. of the Vinaya made a hundred >years ago, when the PTS began to copyright its texts only in the Sixties... As far as I know, the PTS has never claimed that every text it publishes is still in copyright. But some certainly are and that is what they have claimed. I don't think there is any possibility of disputing their legal right to do this. >Let some clever British lawyers figure that out. mmm >> I suspect myself that they are worrying unnecessarily >> but it is certainly important to be able to continue to produce new Pali >> texts and translations. > >Yes, find some other way. And remember that Oldenberg etc. gave their work >free... to have the texts available for scholarship (etc.). A hundred >years ago that was by printing them, but now...... The work that the PTS does and has done is of great value to Pali studies. >Or, to be more radical: Since we (almost all of us) type our new texts >and translations we can as well put them on a server somewhere and get rid >of overpriced publications (especially in some EUROPEAN COUNTRIES)..... Well, you can't be referring to the PTS, since that is in Britain - definitely no part of Europe :-) >Let us return to this topic 10 years from now... I suspect that the death of the book is still a long way away. I don't see the need for an either/or mentality. I myself disagreed with the initial PTS policy over this and inflicted several memoranda upon them about it, making myself unpopular in the process. So I am happy to see a reasonable compromise emerge. Much of the problem was created by someone in Dhammakaya telling them (or giving them the erroneous impression) that Dhammakaya were on the verge of producing a free CD containing all PTS texts and translations of both Canon and Commentaries. Clearly, whatever may be the case with Oldenberg's Vinaya, the copyright of many of the translations has been assigned to the PTS with the intention that it should help to fund future work in Pali studies. Nobody else has a right to subvert that intent. So it is a matter of negotiation. I have some sympathy with some of Dominik's remarks here and agree that a policy of advertising would have been more constructive. No doubt it will come in time. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 24 01:01:24 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 23 May 96 21:01:24 -0400 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024798.23782.16739322797616308461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A quick answer to Prof. L.S. Cousins' discussion of Wed, 22 May 1996 > Surely, most recensions of the Rgveda have not survived ? Indeed, only one; but we know from internaland external evidence about its transmission without almost any changes as far as its wording is concerned, and very limited and well known ones in pronunciation (see the new RV edition of van Nooten/Holland, HOS 50); we know about at least 2 other versions, and we know something of them and of the small divergencies in the number and order of hymns they exhibit, but don't have the texts themselves. My point rather was that the oral and then written tradition of the Canon was not as strict as it was in the RV case, even within the Pali tradition, not to speak of Skt and other versions. Thus we need as many variants as possible in order to judge. > >the Pali Canon has been subject to constant redactorial change even late in this millennium. > This seems to me to be a considerable exaggeration. Of course, not every one cares about the absolutive in -tvaa :: -ttaa, but there are more serious divergencies in the MSS of even one version, and certainly between the various S./SE Asian "national"/local traditions. I would *guess* that on average, every page has one or more, and that *is* serious. > in the kind of thing that the tradition was interested in (e.g. > abhidhamma), it is extremely rare to find any significant deviation and for > most matters the text is firmly fixed by the commentarial tradition. Q.: has anybody made a thorough comparison of what the various (!, not just Buddhaghosa) comm. traditions (themselves transmitted in several regional traditions! -- so what *is* the comm. tradition?) present VERSUS what the same regional trad.s of the Canon present in each particular case? > sometimes the texts are less secure. > A great many changes are editorial > rather than substantial. Judgement call. While even the oldest Pali MS (fragment of the Vinaya) in late (north Indian!) Gupta script, from Kathmandu, more or less agrees with the Pali traditions of other areas, there is enough variation in the MSS and the various "national" traditions of S/SE Asia that one wishes to have AS MANY local traditions/MSS as possible to come to a judgement / solution of disputed cases... There *is* as diff. between caara and cora, and even whether you pour ash into your molasses or something else, in order to make sugar... > the exact words of > the Pali texts were relatively unimportant to the tradition; it was the > Dhamma which they wanted to preserve. If indeed correct, *that* is the problem, see above. Not everyone who uses Pali texts is interested *just* in the Damma. Also in spies and sugar. > I don't think that the PTS editions represent a kind of synthesis of the > four versions <. Certainly, the synthesis is that of the editor; but the editors indicate the 4 regional variants! And that's the best we can get now in one book/CD, and better than to have just one local tradition. > all the texts badly need systematic reediting. .. > Unfortunately > that is nowhere in sight. And there simply isn't the man-power, given the > extremely small numbers of available workers at present. So why not to start it? Instead of writing the Nth "Study of Religion" thesis on emptiness? Or another comparison of Ananda and St. John?? There is a general lack of (re-)editing in Indology, - see the discussion last summer -- and remedy is in sight only in some areas. For the American audience it must be underlined that the general contempt for "textual studies", -- or, and I solemnly swear, the characterization of "philology as the study of * a * word" (Prof. Nagatomi, to me) -- have to be given up before such a change can take place. The discussion and the results of a proper text edition can be as "innovative, thought provoking, and exiting", actually more, than any of the thesis work mentioned above (which is based on the work of the despised editors, -- if indeed not just on that of the translors). > There are of course more than four versions, since there are newer and > older editions e.g. of the Thai and Sinhalese versions. I was indeed thinking of completely neglected versions beyond the well known 4, -- such as the N. Thai one, MSS of which often are not only older but often have better readings as well, see again O.v.Hinueber. > readings of the other four have now been > added to the PTS edition for the Dhammakaya CD ? Not yet, but work on the Burmese one is in progress. More to come. > > price tag of $150, > To my knowledge, the Dhammakaaya Foundation's intent has varied a number of > times during this period (and earlier). They have been trying to accomodate PTS demands. > advantage of the IBRIC version is that you can get the > page references to both the PTS and the BJT editions simultaneously. ... > this speeds > up the process. Agreed, but since you said that not all the PTS references have been entered yet... and as we anyhow need the (available) 4 regional variants, using the Dhammakaya version speeds up the process even more, see above... > Since the BJT edition is one of the most recent ... > ... , you can also find some > useful variants cited from the Siamese editions and from the Burmese > edition published in the 1950s and 60s (after the PTS editions). Agreed, but: the question is not "some" but we need as many *versions* as possible! (first principle in setting up a stemma). > When I was shown the first phase in Bangkok in 1990, there were still a > number of errors to a page. I have seen the e-texts in 1993 and later. They HAVE proofread and have improved the texts considerably. No longer several errors per page. > > They also have typed in commentaries and > > *other* very useful materials. It remains to be seen what the PTS > > will allow on CD. > The commentaries will be included in an updated version for Windows 'by > December 1997'. So it is a question of Dhammakaya not being ready, rather > than the PTS 'allowing'. The comm. had been typed in for years. A matter of proofreading (and what you actually want to present to the public). PTS did not allow either texts or comm. until last month. > > The copyright question, however, is moot. > As far as I know, the PTS has never claimed that every text it publishes is > still in copyright. But some certainly are and that is what they have > claimed. As I said, as far as I checked, a copyright note was inserted only in books published since the Sixties. And, they *claimed* it for the whole CANON, cf. R.K. Norman's sternly worded email message in this list, in Oct. 1993. Which has held up the publication of the *FREE* CD for years and unfortunately now has resulted in one for $ 150... > The work that the PTS does and has done is of great value to Pali studies. I could not agree more. > > .. get rid > > of overpriced publications (especially in some EUROPEAN COUNTRIES)..... > Well, you can't be referring to the PTS, since that is in Britain - > definitely no part of Europe :-) I always suspected that it is the *continent* which still is cut off by fog... > I suspect that the death of the book is still a long way away. I don't see > the need for an either/or mentality. Nor do I. I like to carry a book to the beach instead of getting sand into my machine... But we can put some pressure on the expensive CONTINENTAL publishers who get subsidies for most of the books they publish from their Govt.s/Research Councils etc., and still dare to charge us exorbitant prices. We all know their names... > I myself disagreed with the initial PTS policy over this and inflicted > several memoranda upon them about it, making myself unpopular in the > process. So I am happy to see a reasonable compromise emerge. So did I, and so am I, -- with the reservations made earlier. > Much of the > problem was created by someone in Dhammakaya telling them (or giving them > the erroneous impression) that Dhammakaya were on the verge of producing a > free CD containing all PTS texts and translations of both Canon and > Commentaries. Not the case. I have seen the correspondence. Also cf. my email message of Sept. 93 on this list. > the copyright of > many of the translations has been assigned to the PTS with the intention > that it should help to fund future work in Pali studies. Maybe. Really? PTS never printed a copyright note until c. 1960. Not my point. My point rather was that PRINTING was the method available then. But we no longer live in the age of medieval monks' copying, Asian block prints, Gutenberg's printing press, Linotype... > Nobody else has a > right to subvert that intent. So it is a matter of negotiation. So they did. It only took the threat of a free CD and many years of negotiation... M. Witzel From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri May 24 02:05:04 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 23 May 96 22:05:04 -0400 Subject: 'Fanciful' etymologies Message-ID: <161227024800.23782.17811818878849815952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Prof. von Simson's recent posting: It is certainly interesting to see the use of "fanciful etymologies" in Buddhist, non-Sanskrit contexts, as well as, apparently, a more or less historical sense of language change that is uncommon in Sanskrit and Vedic contexts. The polemical use of etymology against Brahmans is also noteworthy since polemical motives played a significant role in Vedic word-play as well. The hymn AV 10.2 comes to mind. This interesting hymn, deeply involved in "PuruSa mysticism", catalogues human body parts, makes special use of brahmodya interrogation-and-response sequences as a stylistic device, and resorts to puns in two key places. The hymn's essential pun asserts that p?ruSa [man] is the "citadel [p?r] of br?hman", i.e., the cosmic Brahman resides in man [i.e., Atman = brahman]. It furthermore insists that "this br?hman is another n?kSatram, br?hman is called real [s?t] kSatram." The pun here analysizes n?kSatram as na-kSatram, i.e., as "non-kSatram." It would seem clear that a Brahman is here polemicizing against kSatriyas. Real power, it is claimed, dwells within Brahmans. It is nice to see, in the Buddhist sources cited by Prof. von Simson, that the kSatriyas were resourceful enough to respond to the Brahmans "in kind." sincerely, George Thompson From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Fri May 24 02:41:06 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Thu, 23 May 96 22:41:06 -0400 Subject: Recent Publications Astronomy Message-ID: <161227024802.23782.691286517785969132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Astronomy, Indian - Recent Publications Here is a listing of some recent publications on ancient Indian astronomy that may be of interest to some members of this group. Hooda, D.S. and J.N. Kapur. Aryabhata: life and contributions. New Age Internationa, New Delhi, 1996. Content: History of ancient Indian Astronomy and mathematics; Life history of Aryabhata; The Aryaabhatiya; Contributions of Aryabhata in mathematics; [and] ... in astronomy; Relevance of Aryabhata to modern mathematics and science. Kak, Subhash. The Astronomical Code of the R.gveda. Aditya Prakashan, Delhi, 1995. (The author is a professor at Louisiana State University). Mahasiddhanta (a treatise on astronomy) of Aryabhata, ed. with commentary by Pt. Sudhakara Dvivedi. Reprint. Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratishthan, Delhi, 1995. Vartak, Padmakar Vishnu. Scientific knowledge in the Vedas. Nag, Delhi, 1995. From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Fri May 24 02:58:43 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Thu, 23 May 96 22:58:43 -0400 Subject: Dharam Hinduja International Centre Message-ID: <161227024804.23782.16324349912803712991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would someone please give me the (full) postal address of Dharam Hinduja International Centre of Indic Research in Delhi? Telephone number and e-mail address (if any) would also be appreciated. Many thanks. Sushil Jain From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri May 24 09:56:44 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 09:56:44 +0000 Subject: Recent Publications Astronomy Message-ID: <161227024806.23782.3497417706882498366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And Hart Defouw and Robert Svoboda, _Light on Life: an Introduction to the Astrology of India_ (Penguin/Arkana, 1996). ISBN 0-14-019507-6. (I have not read this book; just mentioning it. Svoboda's book on ayurveda, also with Penguin/Arkana is unfortunately not useful as a historical introduction or guide to the subject.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri May 24 11:09:39 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 12:09:39 +0100 Subject: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM ...$150 Message-ID: <161227024808.23782.15366431112443048165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Witzel writes: [>> Surely, most recensions of the Rgveda have not survived ?] >Indeed, only one; but we know from internaland external evidence about its >transmission without almost any changes as far as its wording is >concerned, and very limited and well known ones in pronunciation (see the >new RV edition of van Nooten/Holland, HOS 50); we know about at least 2 >other versions, and we know something of them and of the small divergencies >in the number and order of hymns they exhibit, but don't have the texts >themselves. I would not be very confident of second hand information here. I would suspect that it would tend to understate variation. >My point rather was that the oral and then written tradition of >the Canon was not as strict as it was in the RV case, even within the Pali >tradition, not to speak of Skt and other versions. Thus we need as many >variants as possible in order to judge. I certainly would not dispute this. >> >the Pali Canon has been subject to constant redactorial change even >late in this millennium. >> This seems to me to be a considerable exaggeration. > >Of course, not every one cares about the absolutive in -tvaa :: -ttaa, >but there are more serious divergencies in the MSS of even one version, and >certainly between the various S./SE Asian "national"/local traditions. >I would *guess* that on average, every page has one or more, and that *is* >serious. We probably shouldn't generalize here, as it varies greatly e.g. between the texts of the fist four nikaayas and many of the verse texts of the Khuddaka. >> in the kind of thing that the tradition was interested in (e.g. >> abhidhamma), it is extremely rare to find any significant deviation and for >> most matters the text is firmly fixed by the commentarial tradition. > >Q.: has anybody made a thorough comparison of what the various (!, not >just Buddhaghosa) comm. traditions (themselves transmitted in several >regional traditions! -- so what *is* the comm. tradition?) present VERSUS >what the same regional trad.s of the Canon present in each particular >case? Not really. We simply don't have access to enough of the data to do this properly yet. Certainly the commentaries are transmitted in various versions. I am not actually sure that they are always regional. There seems to have been a fair amount of movement of manuscripts between different areas over a very long period. The text of the commentaries is often established by the sub-commentaries, of course. >> sometimes the texts are less secure. >> A great many changes are editorial >> rather than substantial. > >Judgement call. While even the oldest Pali MS (fragment of the Vinaya) in >late (north Indian!) Gupta script, from Kathmandu, more or less agrees >with the Pali traditions of other areas, there is enough variation in the >MSS and the various "national" traditions of S/SE Asia that one wishes to >have AS MANY local traditions/MSS as possible to come to a judgement / >solution of disputed cases... There *is* as diff. between caara and cora, >and even whether you pour ash into your molasses or something else, in >order to make sugar... Undoubtedly we need more of the raw data. >> the exact words of >> the Pali texts were relatively unimportant to the tradition; it was the >> Dhamma which they wanted to preserve. > >If indeed correct, *that* is the problem, see above. Not everyone who >uses Pali texts is interested *just* in the Damma. Also in >spies and sugar. True. >> I don't think that the PTS editions represent a kind of synthesis of the >> four versions <. > >Certainly, the synthesis is that of the editor; but the editors indicate >the 4 regional variants! And that's the best we can get now in one book/CD, >and better than to have just one local tradition. No, the situation is far worse than that. To take examples: Mahaaniddesa, edited by such well-known scholars as L. de La Vallee Poussin and E.J. Thomas, and relatively good. It used only two manuscripts and a transcript of the Siamese edition. The Siamese edition was taken as base. The one Sinhalese manuscript was 'frequently in a corrupt state'. So one Burmese manuscript was used. But many of the nineteenth century Burmese manuscripts are simply copies of the 'Fifth Council' edition done under King Mindon. Itivuttaka, used only 3 manuscripts. One was Burmese, two in Sinhalese writing. At least one of the two in Sinhala script was probably a copy from or descended from a Burmese original. So we can't actually be sure that the Sinhalese tradition is represented at all. Itivuttaka commentary, used one Sinhalese manuscript and printed Siamese and Sinhalese editions. The pitfalls here are obvious ! >> all the texts badly need systematic reediting. .. >> Unfortunately >> that is nowhere in sight. And there simply isn't the man-power, given the >> extremely small numbers of available workers at present. > >So why not to start it? Instead of writing the Nth "Study of Religion" >thesis on emptiness? Or another comparison of Ananda and St. John?? There >is a general lack of (re-)editing in Indology, - see the discussion last >summer -- and remedy is in sight only in some areas. Almost everyone in sight is already committed to other work. Some of that is just as important e.g. the valuable dictionary work that is in hand. As far as I know, the PTS would publish any newly edited works they were offered, assuming they were done to a satisfactory standard, of course. >For the American audience it must be underlined that the general contempt >for "textual studies", -- or, and I solemnly swear, the characterization >of "philology as the study of * a * word" (Prof. Nagatomi, to me) -- have >to be given up before such a change can take place. The discussion and the >results of a proper text edition can be as "innovative, thought provoking, >and exiting", actually more, than any of the thesis work mentioned above >(which is based on the work of the despised editors, -- if indeed not just >on that of the translors). Agreed. >> > price tag of $150, >> To my knowledge, the Dhammakaaya Foundation's intent has varied a number of >> times during this period (and earlier). > >They have been trying to accomodate PTS demands. I do not think it is as simple as this. I have heard both points of view and seen some of the correspondence. >> advantage of the IBRIC version is that you can get the >> page references to both the PTS and the BJT editions simultaneously. ... >> this speeds >> up the process. > >Agreed, but since you said that not all the PTS references have been >entered yet... and as we anyhow need the (available) 4 regional variants, >using the Dhammakaya version speeds up the process even more, see above... I certainly hope that the Dhammakaya version will prove very useful. >> Since the BJT edition is one of the most recent ... >> ... , you can also find some >> useful variants cited from the Siamese editions and from the Burmese >> edition published in the 1950s and 60s (after the PTS editions). > >Agreed, but: the question is not "some" but we need as many >*versions* as possible! (first principle in setting up a stemma). It will be something to have the different editions, but what is really needed is a major project to locate, identify and collate the manuscripts, particularly the older ones. >I have seen the e-texts in 1993 and later. They HAVE proofread and have >improved the texts considerably. No longer several errors per page. Good news. >> > They also have typed in commentaries and >> > *other* very useful materials. It remains to be seen what the PTS >> > will allow on CD. >> The commentaries will be included in an updated version for Windows 'by >> December 1997'. So it is a question of Dhammakaya not being ready, rather >> than the PTS 'allowing'. > >The comm. had been typed in for years. A matter of proofreading (and what >you actually want to present to the public). PTS did not allow either >texts or comm. until last month. Various offers and proposals were made. They complained constantly about the difficulty in getting replies to letters from Dhammakaya. Part of the recent problem was probably changes in personnel at Dhammakaya. >> > The copyright question, however, is moot. >> As far as I know, the PTS has never claimed that every text it publishes is >> still in copyright. But some certainly are and that is what they have >> claimed. > >As I said, as far as I checked, a copyright note was inserted only in >books published since the Sixties. I don't think a copyright note was required under English law to establish copyright in those days. At all events, it is clear that none was put in because at the time it was not seen as necessary. >And, they *claimed* it for the >whole CANON, cf. R.K. Norman's sternly worded email message in this list, >in Oct. 1993. Which has held up the publication of the *FREE* CD for years >and unfortunately now has resulted in one for $ 150... I haven't seen this. Certainly, such a claim was _not_ made by either Norman or Gombrich in conversation. I suspect that to some extent it was a question of negotiating position. >Nor do I. I like to carry a book to the beach instead of getting sand >into my machine... But we can put some pressure on the expensive CONTINENTAL >publishers who get subsidies for most of the books they publish from their >Govt.s/Research Councils etc., and still dare to charge us exorbitant >prices. We all know their names... Yes. >> Much of the >> problem was created by someone in Dhammakaya telling them (or giving them >> the erroneous impression) that Dhammakaya were on the verge of producing a >> free CD containing all PTS texts and translations of both Canon and >> Commentaries. >Not the case. I have seen the correspondence. >Also cf. my email message of Sept. 93 on this list. They certainly got that impression. Mettanando also talked in those terms to me, but I realized there was an element of enthusiasm present. The PTS Council took it rather literally. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Fri May 24 12:45:10 1996 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 14:45:10 +0200 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227024810.23782.8216532001987068523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a suggestion: There seems to be some embarrassment surrounding information from list-members about their own publications. Often they are introduced with apologies for self-advertising. This is quite unnecessary, since abstracts of what is being published are useful for all of us. Why not rather make it a routine to send an abstract to INDOLOGY when an article / book / dissertation has been published / passed? If only people state in the subject-line that their message is an abstract this should not be a burden to anyone. Perhaps these abstracts could even be filed separately on the INDOLOGY Web-pages. Best regards Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Fri May 24 15:45:38 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:45:38 +0100 Subject: overemphasis on magic (was: Re: etymology in the Sanskrit tr.) Message-ID: <161227024812.23782.7636788813428500025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: >Jan Houben wrote: >>"On etymologies in India see recently: Max Deeg, Die altindische Etymologie >>nach dem Verstaendnis Yaaska's und seiner Vorgaenger, Verlag J.H. Roell, >>1995, who overemphasizes in my view <> aspects of the >>etymologies...." (delete) > . . . I am curious to know what this "over-emphasis" consists of. The author of Die altindische Etymologie rightly emphasizes that the ancient Indian disciplin of Nirukta is to be understood in its own traditional context ("Dies zeigt noch einmal umso deutlicher, dass die Disziplin der nairukta der aelteren Tradition verpflichtet ist, p. 419), and not to be measured according to the standards of modern etymology. The main concept which the author introduces to distinguish ancient Indian from modern etymology is <>, but the author makes no attempt to go below the surface of this extremely problematic concept. He merely refers to L. Petzoldt's Magie und Religion (published 1978, consisting of articles of various authors mainly written between 1910 and 1968 and one in 1978), and to a definition of Hutton Webster (1973, an earlier edition appeared in ca. 1948). Also more generally, no secondary literature after ca. 1980 is mentioned in this book which appeared in 1995! While it had already become clear to L. Petzoldt that the 19th century ideas on an evolution from magic pre-animism through animism to theistic religion (cf. Frazer's Golden Bough) are untenable (Petzoldt p. X), M. Deeg's presentation of facts seems not to go beyond such an outdated evolutionary scheme (at least I do not see any explicit reflection on the problems involved). Why is no reference made to more recent material such as Stanley J. Tambiah's Magic, Science and the scope of Rationality (Lewis Henry Morgan Lectures, Cambridge University Press 1990) who points out (p. 2) that "we have to confront today the question whether or not the categories of magic, science and religion may be "tendentious" and their analytical value rendered suspect by their historical "embeddedness". Why is so much energy invested in studying the data and hardly any in a critical reflection? Why not participate in modern academic discussions on this subject? This is, very briefly, my criticism concerning the uncritical use of the term Magie in Max Deeg's work which, in spite of the mentioned shortcoming, will certainly remain valuable for Indological specialists. But with such an Ivory-tower attitude Indologists should not be surprised to see that chairs for Indology are not renewed and that funding for their discipline quickly disappears. Indology, which used to be a fountainhead of creative ideas for the linguistic and at that period newly emerging social sciences in the 19th century has now become an area of muddy backwaters of outdated ideas and concepts in the religious and human sciences. Jan E.M. Houben Research Fellow International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From thompson at handel.jlc.net Sat May 25 00:26:06 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Fri, 24 May 96 20:26:06 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024814.23782.9849922222937065399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben's recent remarks offer an interesting challenge to all Indologists, particularly in light of the previous remarks of Michael Witzel [Re: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM] concerning 'the general contempt for "textual studies"' -- in particular among his American audience. Witzel on the one hand calls for the editing of more texts; Houben on the other urges us to get current with our theory [anthropological theory in particular]. Witzel urges us to return to the Ivory tower [assuming that the editing of texts is an Ivory tower sort of preoccupation], while Houben suggests that we have become irrelevant by staying there. Clearly, we are being called in two different directions here. This is an issue which "the American audience", in particular, should perhaps confront. As for the overemphasis on magic in Max Deeg's book on altindische Etymologie: this is another issue, which also should be confronted. While Houben has convinced me that Deeg's theoretical foundations are not up-to-date, he has not persuaded me that the discussion of magic is now pass?. In fact Tambiah's book is no less than a continuation of a preoccupation with magic that goes back nearly thirty years [to his 1968 article on "The Magical Power of Words"]. It would seem to me rather self-evident that Tambiah has continued to study the problem of magic precisely because it has seemed to him to be, still, a rather important one. If anything, Tambiah's book would seem to be a call to *further* exploration of the problem of magic. Look at the evolution of Tambiah's thought: in his earlier, now classic, articles he resorts to speech act theory [cf. esp. "A Performative Approach to Ritual"]. In the present book cited by Houben, he has added Wittgenstein [cf. his remarks on the Golden Bough] and Kenneth Burke [cf. his characterization of magic as "primitive rhetoric"], among others. In light of Mikael Actor's recent suggestions, perhaps I may be allowed to quote myself. I have recently written a review article [to appear soon in IIJ] of Elizarenkova's new book [mentioned already on this thread]. In it I said the following: 'Elizarenkova also offers a provocative discussion of the overall "magical grammar" of the Rgveda [pp. 291ff., et passim],which as far as I can see opens up new vistas for the study of Rgvedic rhetoric: for essentially what a "magical grammar" amounts to is a "poetic grammar," i.e., a grammar of poetic devices. This discussion represents a remarkable measure of progress in the development of an adequate picture of the Vedic world-view, in which magic undoubtedly plays a crucial role: for it asserts [or at least suggests] that magic is fundamentally a matter of rhetoric, and vice versa, that rhetoric in Vedic is also fundamentally a matter of magic. In my view, this is a crucial issue for Vedic studies which deserves much more serious thought than it has, until now, received.' I still believe that discussion of a magical grammar is crucial for Vedic studies, and that is why I have raised the question re Deeg's "overemphasis on magic." Sincerely, George Thompson From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat May 25 11:43:57 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 25 May 96 07:43:57 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024817.23782.1725104447118306001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be loath to set up a kind of dichotomy between the presumed Jan Houben mode and the Michael Witzel mode of Indological scholarship. I don't believe such a dichotomy exists in reality, let us say, in Michael's work. I personally view these two scholarly interests, textual and theoretical, as complementing each other, rather than as being exclusive of each other. If practised exclusive of each other, both the approaches would be less acceptable. A textual reconstruction without answering the question "what does it all mean" would be a dry as dust exercise, while the high-flying theoretical studies based on uncritically edited texts and interpretations would be without a foundation. In my own personal experience over the past twenty-five years, however, I have noticed an increasing tendency in the direction of high-flying theoretical studies, and a decreasing interest in critically editing texts. I have myself taken almost twenty years to complete a critical edition of Shaunakiiyaa Caturaadhyaayikaa (Whitney's Atharva-Praati"saakhya). First it took years to gather all the known manuscripts. Then it took years to reconstruct the texts, and it took further years to interpret them. While it is easy to share the joys of high-flying theoretical studies with your colleagues and students, I have found it rather difficult to share the joys of textual reconstructions and collation of manuscripts. Therefore, in my own case, there was a continuous tendency to put the work of the critical edition on the back burner and let the more theoretical studies go ahead. But having finally completed the critical edition of this text, I can say without hesitation that without such basic work on texts, any theoretical conclusions based on earlier rather poorly edited versions are rather suspect. Jan Houben's concern about diminishing job markets in Indology is indeed shared by all of us. However, in my opinion, it has less to do with the mode of scholarship in Indology than with the relative numbers of students we serve and the willingness of institutions and governments to put their resources to serve the needs of such small numbers. At Michigan, my courses in Hinduism are over-flowing with students, while the Sanskrit courses are starving for students. The deans obviously would prefer that I teach the courses with high numbers than teach courses with small numbers. No problems for teaching Hindi, which attracts over a hundred students each year from the large immigrant community. But the same cannot be said of Tamil or Marathi. At least in the US, the future of the jobs lies more with the numbers of students we serve, rather than with the type of scholarship we produce. This has been made absolutely clear to us at Michigan. The university recently officially instituted a policy called "Value Centered Management". In simple terms, this means that each department must earn its own salaries. If teaching Chinese literature does not attract students, then teach them how to make Chinese chicken. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 25 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > Jan Houben's recent remarks offer an interesting challenge to all > Indologists, particularly in light of the previous remarks of Michael > Witzel [Re: PTS style Tipitaka CD-ROM] concerning 'the general contempt for > "textual studies"' -- in particular among his American audience. Witzel on > the one hand calls for the editing of more texts; Houben on the other urges > us to get current with our theory [anthropological theory in particular]. > Witzel urges us to return to the Ivory tower [assuming that the editing of > texts is an Ivory tower sort of preoccupation], while Houben suggests that > we have become irrelevant by staying there. Clearly, we are being called > in two different directions here. > > This is an issue which "the American audience", in particular, should > perhaps confront. As for the overemphasis on magic in Max Deeg's book on > altindische Etymologie: this is another issue, which also should be > confronted. While Houben has convinced me that Deeg's theoretical > foundations are not up-to-date, he has not persuaded me that the discussion > of magic is now pass?. In fact Tambiah's book is no less than a > continuation of a preoccupation with magic that goes back nearly thirty > years [to his 1968 article on "The Magical Power of Words"]. It would seem > to me rather self-evident that Tambiah has continued to study the problem > of magic precisely because it has seemed to him to be, still, a rather > important one. If anything, Tambiah's book would seem to be a call to > *further* exploration of the problem of magic. Look at the evolution of > Tambiah's thought: in his earlier, now classic, articles he resorts to > speech act theory [cf. esp. "A Performative Approach to Ritual"]. In the > present book cited by Houben, he has added Wittgenstein [cf. his remarks on > the Golden Bough] and Kenneth Burke [cf. his characterization of magic as > "primitive rhetoric"], among others. > > In light of Mikael Actor's recent suggestions, perhaps I may be allowed to > quote myself. I have recently written a review article [to appear soon in > IIJ] of Elizarenkova's new book [mentioned already on this thread]. In it > I said the following: > > 'Elizarenkova also offers a provocative discussion of the overall "magical > grammar" of the Rgveda [pp. 291ff., et passim],which as far as I can see > opens up new vistas for the study of Rgvedic rhetoric: for essentially what > a "magical grammar" amounts to is a "poetic grammar," i.e., a grammar of > poetic devices. This discussion represents a remarkable measure of > progress in the development of an adequate picture of the Vedic world-view, > in which magic undoubtedly plays a crucial role: for it asserts [or at > least suggests] that magic is fundamentally a matter of rhetoric, and vice > versa, that rhetoric in Vedic is also fundamentally a matter of magic. In > my view, this is a crucial issue for Vedic studies which deserves much more > serious thought than it has, until now, received.' > > I still believe that discussion of a magical grammar is crucial for Vedic > studies, and that is why I have raised the question re Deeg's "overemphasis > on magic." > > Sincerely, > George Thompson > > > > > > > From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sat May 25 14:36:35 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sat, 25 May 96 15:36:35 +0100 Subject: Value Centered Management Message-ID: <161227024818.23782.1290921905889293536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: Jan Houben's concern about diminishing job markets in Indology is >indeed shared by all of us. However, in my opinion, it has less to do >with the mode of scholarship in Indology than with the relative numbers >of students we serve and the willingness of institutions and governments >to put their resources to serve the needs of such small numbers. At >Michigan, my courses in Hinduism are over-flowing with students, while >the Sanskrit courses are starving for students. The deans obviously >would prefer that I teach the courses with high numbers than teach >courses with small numbers. No problems for teaching Hindi, which >attracts over a hundred students each year from the large immigrant >community. But the same cannot be said of Tamil or Marathi. At least in >the US, the future of the jobs lies more with the numbers of students we >serve, rather than with the type of scholarship we produce. This has >been made absolutely clear to us at Michigan. The university recently >officially instituted a policy called "Value Centered Management". In >simple terms, this means that each department must earn its own >salaries. If teaching Chinese literature does not attract students, then >teach them how to make Chinese chicken. A similar way of thinking sees to be making its way into university studies here in Norway too, although we haven't quite reached the "Value Centered Management" model yet. It would seem that university administrations - and politicians - forget that universities do more than produce students. They also produce knowledge, and knowledge is necessary in a number of contexts, even if society does not need a large number of people who master a particular kind of knowledge. The Value Centered Management model seems to regard the university as a closed world, but it is an integral part of society, and even if a particular subject or department does not "make a profit" in the immediate university context, society as a whole may profit by it. Academics should spend some time informing the public about this, particularly the politicians. I always felt that academic life could learn something from business (where I worked for several years), but "Value Centered Management" is ridiculous. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From LGoehler at aol.com Sun May 26 18:02:51 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 96 14:02:51 -0400 Subject: address request Message-ID: <161227024820.23782.4308050234582347213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the eMail address of Prof. V.N. Jha, Director of the CASS, University Poona INDIA ? Lars Goehler From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Sun May 26 20:37:09 1996 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Sun, 26 May 96 16:37:09 -0400 Subject: E-mail address (Prof. Aklujkar) Message-ID: <161227024822.23782.12058160985420043674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Aklujkar, If you are reading this, please help! I have tried to send you a copy of the poem you requested but the mail has been returned to me undelivered. Have I made a mistake in copying your address? With regards, Sushil Jain When replying please send a copy to my residential server. Thanks. Cc:sushjain at enoreo.on.ca ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- <@internet.uwindsor.ca:aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca> (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.unixg.ubc.ca.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 <@internet.uwindsor.ca:aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca>... User unknown --------------------------------------------- From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Sun May 26 20:44:04 1996 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Sun, 26 May 96 16:44:04 -0400 Subject: E-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227024823.23782.17273066107450183952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be obliged if someone would give me the e-mail address(es) of: 1. Unto Tahitinen (author of _Non-violent Theories of Punishment_); and 2. Toshikazu Arai (of Hawaii) who contributed "Jain kingship as viewed in the _Prabandacinta+man.i_" in Richards' (ed) _Kingship and Authority in South Asia (Wisconsin, 1978). Many Thanks. Sushil Jain From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon May 27 13:48:38 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 27 May 96 09:48:38 -0400 Subject: address? Message-ID: <161227024825.23782.8074860733209130226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the current address for Professor Heesterman in the Netherlands? Does he also have an email address? Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From Jon.Skarpeid at hint.no Mon May 27 17:02:20 1996 From: Jon.Skarpeid at hint.no (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 27 May 96 19:02:20 +0200 Subject: kala, anadi ananta, fellowship to India Message-ID: <161227024827.23782.967867483241135029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi! What is Indian Counsil for Philosophical Researc? It wasn't listed in the information aboat "List of Universities adn other Institutions of Higher Learning" given by Indian Council for Cultural Relations which gave me the fellowship. Do Indian Council for Philosophical Research give lessons, or is it just a place where a guy like me can get a single consultation? It would be important for me to know, since I still have the possibility to influence on my position regarding the fellowship. If you also have information aboat fax and tlf, please let me know. -Jon At 01:51 27.04.96 BST, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Jon Skarpeid wrote: > >> 1. >> Which of the philosophical systems of Indian(hindu) philosophy is deepest >> concerned with the phenomenom of kala, e.g. beginning and ending and >> non-beginning and non-ending(anadi((samsara)) and ananta(samsara), and I >> would also add nitya vastu)? > >Try mImAm.sA and Buddhist thought or dialectical critiques of Hindu notions> >> 2. >> Though i have read A.Balslevs "Time in indian philosophy", I'm still >> woundering. >> Is there any other books/articles You would suggest? >Balslev has also edited a book on time with J n Mohanty (E J Brill, early >1990s) which has some good discussions; Hari Shankar Prasad has an edit >ed volume on time in Buddhism, from Indian Books Centre/Satguru >Publications, Delhi, 1993 (?).> > > >> 3. >> I have also received a fellowship to India, and I wonder where's the pest >> place, including library with english books, to undergo a study of >> Indian(hindu) philosopy. >> >> "pest place" (sic) is everywhere I suppose, as philosophy in India is >in such sad disarray. However, there are some good people around and one >of two resourceful institutes; call in at the Indian Ciuncil for >Philosophical Research (see Dr Ashok Vora), 4th floor, Rajendra Bhavan, Deen >Dayal Upadhyay Marg, New Delhi; and go see two of the doyens of Indian >philosophy in India, Sijabijan Bhattacharyya in Calcutta (via Dept of >Philosophy, Calcutta University), and Daya Krishna in Jaipur (lives at >9 Campus Residence, Jaipur University, Jaipur). > >Best wishes > > > From zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue May 28 01:27:55 1996 From: zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu (Leonard Zwilling) Date: Mon, 27 May 96 19:27:55 -0600 Subject: MJ Message-ID: <161227024846.23782.11315860916611287276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GT queries whether Michael Jackson is a paNDava--I'd say paNDaka was more likely, no? From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Tue May 28 01:28:49 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Mon, 27 May 96 21:28:49 -0400 Subject: Images of India and Indians... Addendum Message-ID: <161227024832.23782.8652052183527875328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since some of you have shown interest and appraciation in my earlier posting, and to those who have asked for further infomration on the subject, I post herewith some more references, not only in school textbooks but also in other print media, that you may wish to consult for writing an article/paper on 'Images of Stereotypes of India and Indians'. I may have missed some publications due to my neglect of this subject for the past several years. If it is the case please do post your findings to the list. ------------------------------------- Images and Stereotypes - Addendum Bearce, George, British Attitudes towards India, 1784-1858, Oxford University Press, 1961. Crane, Robert. 'The development of the American view of India as seen in certain religious periodicals published in the United States, 1887-1931' Thesis, American University, Washington, 1943. Deodhar, Shyama. 'The treatment of India in American Social Studies textbooks' Thesis, UofMichigan, 1954. Gokhale, Balkrishna G. (ed) Images of India. Wake Forest University, 1971. Greenberger, Allen J. The British Image of India: A study of the literature of imperialism, 1880-1960. London: OUP, 1969. Jones, Dorothy. The Portrayal of China and India on the American Screen, 1896-1955. MIT, 1955. Lach, Donald. India in the Eyes of Europe: the Sixteenth Century. Chicago, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1968. Naik, M. K. et al (eds). The Image of India in Western Creative Writing. Karnatak University, 1971. Schramm, Richard. The Image of india in selected American Literary Periodicals, 1870-1900. Published in 1964. Stern, Bernard. American Views of India and Indians, 1857-1900. Thesis, UofPenn, 1956. Thomas, Wendell. Hinduism Invades America. New York, 1930. ------------------------------------------- Some Childrens' book of interest, depicting snakecharmers, tigers, maharajas etc. From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Tue May 28 02:08:01 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Mon, 27 May 96 22:08:01 -0400 Subject: Images ... Message-ID: <161227024834.23782.17552723617918349655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, The earlier messaged got garbled; apparently I had difficulty uploading my dos text. Here is a revised version. Sorry about the duplication. Sushil Jain -------------- Since some of you have shown interest and appreciation in my earlier posting, and to those who have asked for further information on the subject, I post herewith some more references, not only about images in school textbooks but also in other print media, that you may wish to consult for writing an article/paper on 'Images of Stereotypes of India and Indians'. I may have missed some publications due to my neglect of this subject for the pastseveral years. If it is the case please do post your findings to the list. ------------------------------------- Images and Stereotypes - Addendum Bearce, George, British Attitudes towards India, 1784-1858, Oxford University Press, 1961. Crane, Robert. 'The development of the American view of India as seen in certain religious periodicals published in the United States, 1887-1931' Thesis, American University, Washington, 1943. Deodhar, Shyama. 'The treatment of India in American Social Studies textbooks' Thesis, UofMichigan, 1954. Gokhale, Balkrishna G. (ed) Images of India. Wake Forest University, 1971. Greenberger, Allen J. The British Image of India: A study of the literature of imperialism, 1880-1960. London: OUP, 1969. Jones, Dorothy. The Portrayal of China and India on the American Screen, 1896-1955. MIT, 1955. Lach, Donald. India in the Eyes of Europe: the Sixteenth Century. Chicago, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1968. Naik, M. K. et al (eds). The Image of India in Western Creative Writing. Karnatak University, 1971. Schramm, Richard. The Image of india in selected American Literary Periodicals, 1870-1900. Published in 1964. Stern, Bernard. American Views of India and Indians, 1857-1900. Thesis, UofPenn, 1956. Thomas, Wendell. Hinduism Invades America. New York, 1930. ------------------------------------------- Some Children's book of interest, depicting snake charmers, tigers, maharajahs etc. From ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Mon May 27 20:29:51 1996 From: ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Shin Young Yoo) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 01:29:51 +0500 Subject: Q: Etymology of yameLutekulA Message-ID: <161227024829.23782.6225984214421666898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear sirs, We have vary curious names in the cullavagga of Vinaya: yameLutekulA who spoke to the Buddha "handa mayaM bhante buddhavacanaM chandaso AropemA." The names are disolved into yameLu and tekula and another possibility is given in a footnote, yameLa and utekula (SBOE vol.20, p.149). The Thai version (Mahidol CD) gives meTThakokuTThA. In any case my guess does not work! Any suggestion? Yours, Yoo Shinyoung From aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi Tue May 28 06:26:59 1996 From: aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi (Asko H S Parpola) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 09:26:59 +0300 Subject: E-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227024836.23782.8561132709288594298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not at all sure that Dr Unto Tahtinen has an e-mail address, but his ordinary mailing address is: Dr Unto Tahtinen, FIN-42800 Haapamaki, Finland. With best regards, AP On Sun, 26 May 1996, S Jain wrote: > > I would be obliged if someone would give me the e-mail address(es) of: > > 1. Unto Tahitinen (author of _Non-violent Theories of Punishment_); > > and > > 2. Toshikazu Arai (of Hawaii) who contributed "Jain kingship as viewed in > the _Prabandacinta+man.i_" in Richards' (ed) _Kingship and Authority in > South Asia (Wisconsin, 1978). > > Many Thanks. > > Sushil Jain > > > --- Asko Parpola (E-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) ---------------------------------------------------------- Department of Asian and African Studies, Univ. of Helsinki From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue May 28 16:44:40 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 12:44:40 -0400 Subject: Michael Jackson and India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024840.23782.6409241968441317108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have fun! Madhav Deshpande ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:14:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Nicole Moss To: Madhav Deshpande Subject: Michael Jackson and India Madhav, I thought you might find some humor in this. -Nicole ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 8:14:02 -0500 From: rosen_d at supplytech.com To: nmoss at umich.edu Subject: news about mikey *File Description: Michael Jackson Scares Wild Pigs* Michael Jackson's songs scare away wild pigs in India Deutsche Presse-Agentur New Delhi, April 3, 1995 "Beat it!" boomed Michael Jackson's voice from the stereo and the wild boars took it literally. Maurauding wild boars and monkeys are not regaled by the rock icon, darling of millions all over the world. Instead, his voice scares them, as a relieved Indian farmer discovered recently. Anant Patwardhan, a farmer in the southern Indian state of Karnataka used to beat the drum to keep the wild foragers away from his crop. But he really hit the jackpot when he accidentally played the casette containing the number by the Peter Pan of pop. Wild boars and monkeys looking for a good meal in the fields immediately took to their heels to Patwardhan's surprise, PTI reported Monday. Now the farmer is a regular Michael Jackson fan, though for a different reason. From Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at Tue May 28 11:24:56 1996 From: Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at (Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 13:24:56 +0200 Subject: address - Heesterman Message-ID: <161227024838.23782.539119394664545236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Heesterman is generally still reachable via Kern Institute in Leiden. He doesn?t have email. His private address in the Netherlands is: Prof. Dr. Jan C. Heesterman Aert van Neslaan 308 NL-2341 HM Oegstgeest NETHERLANDS In autumn and spring he ussally teaches at Vienna University: Institut fuer Indologie Universitaet Wien Universitaetsstr. 7 A - 1010 Vienna AUSTRIA > Does anyone have the current address for Professor Heesterman in >the Netherlands? Does he also have an email address? > Thanks. > Madhav Deshpande Ernst Prets From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue May 28 20:28:21 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=ADndrAkutsA?= Message-ID: <161227024841.23782.15402622559726532494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have become interested in the dvandva compound ?ndrAkutsA, a hapax legomenon at RV 5.31.9, where it is a vocative. What interests me is that it appears to couple a divine and a human figure, perhaps uniquely, at least in the RV. Gonda, in Dual Divinities p.85, suggests that there are other occurrences, but I have not found any. Has anyone encountered other such dvandvas, or any literature on them [it?]? Or is Kutsa a divine figure here? Perhaps the line between human and divine is not so clear in Vedic? More and more I am beginning to think so.... By the way, who is Michael Jackson? Is he a pANDava? GT From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue May 28 20:57:39 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 21:57:39 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C3=ADndrAkutsA?= Message-ID: <161227024844.23782.15473105106702632960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, > By the way, who is Michael Jackson? Is he a pANDava? > No, he's a gandharva: he sings. All the apsaraa-s are mad about him and its rumoured that Indra is planning to send him down to bhuloka out of sheer jealousy... Sorry, I couldn't resist :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed May 29 04:59:34 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 21:59:34 -0700 Subject: Michael Jackson Message-ID: <161227024850.23782.15269979564736082288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to George Thompson's important inquiry concerning the identity of Michael Jackson: According to the most esoteric Rauka UpaniSad, his real name is mAyAkAla yakSa (the final letter "n" was added to confuse the common folk). He is a ghost that has deceived even the gods into thinking he is a gandharva, he has accomplished this thanks to his powerful mAyA. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From wagers at iglobal.net Wed May 29 04:14:52 1996 From: wagers at iglobal.net (wagers at iglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 May 96 23:14:52 -0500 Subject: New URL's and E-Mail Address Message-ID: <161227024848.23782.7781367369435211362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, This is addressed to those of you who either correspond with me or use my _ousia_ web site. My apologies to others. Also, apologies to those who recieve more than one copy of this notice, which is crossposted. Please note my new e-mail address and URLs below. If you link to my web pages, please change the URL in your HTML to the appropriate one. These changes are effective 5/29/96. My server changed its server, making the changes necessary. The new server should be faster and even more reliable, so the bother of change should be worthwhile. Regards, Will wagers at iglobal.net Reality is the best metaphor. http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Egyptologist.Shtml http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Indologist.Shtml http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Mayanist.Shtml From thompson at handel.jlc.net Wed May 29 11:34:04 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 07:34:04 -0400 Subject: MJ Message-ID: <161227024852.23782.2230850958055333800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In rebuttal to Leonard Zwilling's violent ad hominem attack, I would say that MJ is pANDava by varNa and paNDaka by rUpa. I would also relate the English term panderer, which may be cognate. pace GT From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 29 12:56:10 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 08:56:10 -0400 Subject: magic / directions in Indology? Message-ID: <161227024856.23782.11837188235555358954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 25 May 1996, George Thompson wrote: > Jan Houben's recent remarks offer an interesting challenge to all > Indologists, particularly in light of the previous remarks of Michael > Witzel ... concerning 'the general contempt for > "textual studies"' -- in particular among his American audience. > Witzel on > the one hand calls for the editing of more texts; Houben on the other urges > us to get current with our theory [anthropological theory in particular]. Two aspects of our work. There are several more. Good, philologically sound, culturally well informed (and preferably idiomatic) translations for example. Or the "still digging", anthropologically informed but indologically centered field work among the various communities of the subcontinent, not to forget the current frontiers of Hinduism among the "tribals" (not my term) in Orissa, Nepal etc. We also have much salvage anthropology/indology to do, especially now that we notice the increasing pace of "modernization" of the subcontinent. That, incidentally, has always been part of my work since the seventies. (In one case I may have just caught the last vestiges of a unique Tantric reinterpretation of a Vedic ritual). etc. etc. The same is true as far as search for MSS and oral traditions is concerned. Informed specialists have to be on the lookout for disappearing remants of tradition (written and oral) before they die out now due to neglect and simple old age of the transmitters/MSS. Unfortunately too little of this is carried out by our South Asian colleagues. > Witzel urges us to return to the Ivory tower [assuming that the editing of > texts is an Ivory tower sort of preoccupation], while Houben suggests that > we have become irrelevant by staying there. Clearly, we are being called > in two different directions here. Certainly not, see last paragraph.Many directions. -- Madhav has already answered this at length. Anyhow, I have always deplored (I think also in writing) the loss of connection with anthropology that occurred after the Twenties... > This is an issue which "the American audience", in particular, should > perhaps confront. That was the intention. It is difficult to see this from the inside. The problem of "us" and the OTHER styles of scholarship... Apart from blinders, there also is the problem of what is useful for one's career.... If you don't follow the trend, as grad. student, no job... Since I have experienced the academic atmosphere in Germany, Nepal/India, Holland, the US, Japan -- always for years, and while working there, -- I may perhaps be deemed competent to make some comparisons. Regarding types of work, the simple fact of the matter is that thorough work like the great mathematician Grassmann's Rgveda Dictionary endure and are constantly used to this day, and even Griffith's RV translation since no one else bothered to produce a new, complete one in English for the 100 years, or similarly, R. von Roth's/D. Whitney's Atharvaveda edition and translation, to quote just our oldest sources... I am sure that in the same way Staal's two "brick colored" vols. on the Kerala Agnicayana or Robert Levy's description/interpretation of the religion/society of the very traditional (almost medieval) Hindu town of Bhaktapur in Nepal (Levy, "Mesocosm") will endure I have my doubts about certain other types of work, expressed already last time. M. Witzel 617 495 3295 From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed May 29 15:05:45 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 10:05:45 -0500 Subject: Q: Kalividambanam Message-ID: <161227024867.23782.18036487825641992399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q: Works like Kalividambanam ******************************* I want to read works of the sort of kalividambanam by Nilakanta Diksitar. On social satire. Any other famous ones in Sanskrit? Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed May 29 15:57:32 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 10:57:32 -0500 Subject: Paper Message-ID: <161227024864.23782.2012393956392638734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I would like to let you know that the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences has permitted ASNIC to post Prof. Lariviere's paper "Protestants, Orientalists, and Brhmanas: Reconstructing Indian Social History" which was first published as a part of the 1994 Gonda Lecture,Gonda Foundation, Netherlands. I had posted its abstract previously. Now you can access the full article at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/gondalecture.html Thanks. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed May 29 19:22:09 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 12:22:09 -0700 Subject: MJ Message-ID: <161227024871.23782.1424915265442456914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 29 May 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >In rebuttal to Leonard Zwilling's violent ad hominem attack, I would say > >that MJ is pANDava by varNa and paNDaka by rUpa. I would also relate the > >English term panderer, which may be cognate. > >pace > >GT > > If we are discussing pandavas here, may I remind you of the Jackson FIVE? > They must *all* be pandavas. The question is: Is M. J. an avatara of > Arjuna, Bhima, Nakula or Sahadeva? (For some reason, I don't think he is > the dharmaraja Yudhisthira, but I may be prejudiced). > > LM You might be on the right track. If he is a pANDava, then it must be Arjuna, for he disguised himself as a paNDa during the 5 brothers' stay at king VirATa's court. So maybe Thompson and Zwilling are both right. Besides, there is something about Arjuna and the white color... However, I must inform you that while studying the little known Trivya PurANa this morning, I came across the following: This text refers to him as mAyAkAla jakSaNa (originally kSaNaja, but, again, the name was altered in order to deceive). He is said to have been "born in an instant." He was punished by the gods for playing so many tricks, and he is frequently seen roaming the Indian countryside yelling: pIDita! pIDita! tormented! tormented! All animals run scared when they hear his loud roars which, in his garbled pronunciation sound like beat it! beat it! Maybe this helps explain why those monkeys ran away. LGR From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed May 29 18:32:59 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:32:59 -0400 Subject: Q: Kalividambanam Message-ID: <161227024869.23782.13671811367118173181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Older works of this category include K.semendra's Kalaavilaasa, De"sopade"sa, and many of the Anyokti collections which appeared in the Kaavyamaalaa Series from Bombay. Among modern works of this type, you may like the Ka.n.takaanjali written by the poet Ka.n.takaarjuna (= Professor K.S. Arjunwadkar of Pune). Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 29 May 1996, Ganesan wrote: > > > Q: Works like Kalividambanam > ******************************* > > I want to read works of the sort of kalividambanam by Nilakanta Diksitar. > On social satire. Any other famous ones in Sanskrit? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov > > From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Wed May 29 18:38:33 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:38:33 -0400 Subject: H-ASIA: Electronic format for non-roman script languages (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024873.23782.3717331704696915679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:53:55 -0700 From: Frank Conlon To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA Subject: H-ASIA: Electronic format for non-roman script languages H-ASIA May 29, 1996 Library of Congress seeks to open dialogue on electronic format for languages employing non-roman script/characters ************************************************************************* From: ROBERT WORDEN The Library of Congress is interested in engaging in a dialogue with members of this list (or others you can recommend) who are knowledgeable about electronic formats for non-roman alphabet vernacular language materials (Japanese, Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Persian, Hebrew, Yiddish, the languages of India, and others.) Please reply directly to: Robert Worden Federal Research Division Library of Congress (worden at mail.loc.gov) ----------- Ed. note: Please do circulate this note to colleagues not on H-ASIA, BUT please also reply directly to Robert Worden, NOT to H-ASIA. F.F.C. ========================================================================== From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed May 29 13:55:55 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:55:55 +0100 Subject: MJ Message-ID: <161227024854.23782.16941649663401238994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In rebuttal to Leonard Zwilling's violent ad hominem attack, I would say >that MJ is pANDava by varNa and paNDaka by rUpa. I would also relate the >English term panderer, which may be cognate. >pace >GT If we are discussing pandavas here, may I remind you of the Jackson FIVE? They must *all* be pandavas. The question is: Is M. J. an avatara of Arjuna, Bhima, Nakula or Sahadeva? (For some reason, I don't think he is the dharmaraja Yudhisthira, but I may be prejudiced). LM Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed May 29 13:56:27 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:56:27 +0100 Subject: [murthyk@nasd.com: RE: indology@liverpool.ac.uk] Message-ID: <161227024858.23782.12266023570340767745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I am posting this on behalf of someone who is not on the Indology list. Thanks for reading his message. Bye, Girish Beeharry ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: From: "Murthy, Krish" To: Girish Beeharry Subject: RE: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wed, 29 May 96 09:46:00 PDT Encoding: 48 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Length: 1805 Message to be posted : My Sanskrit teacher, a locally accredited pundit, Sri M. V. Sastry is seeking financial help in publishing three Sanskrit book. Griha Shanthi Kalpa, Aruna Homa, and Abdika Prayogam. Sri Sastry is educated in Chamarajendra Veda Maha Patasala, Bangalore. He is an authority on Yajursha Prayoga and performed and guided several Devata Prathishtas in Andhrapradesh. He was also honored by Sri Jagadtguru of Shringeri and Kanchi Kamakoti peetams. He has secured a partial grant from Triputhi Devasthanam. If you wish to help in this cause please either send a Indian rupee draft to Sri. M.V.Sastry ( 4/147 3rd road, Anantapur, AP, Pin 515004, India) directly or me (US$ check/MO okay). For all donations above $20, If address or fax number included, will receive a copy of the Draft mailed to him. A donation of $20.00 will be acknowledged in the books. A donation of $30.00 will be acknowledged in the books and one copy of Griha Shanthi Kalpa will be mailed when available. A donation of $40.00 will be acknowledged in the books and one copy Griha Shanthi Kalpa and Aruna Homa will be mailed when available. A donation of $50.00 and above will be acknowledged in the books and one copy all the three books will be mailed when available. Sri. Sastry can not complete this noble restoration work without our help. For further detail please contact me. Samudrala R. Murthy 34 Atwater Ave Derby, CT 06418 U.S.A ------- End of forwarded message ------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed May 29 16:10:03 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 16:10:03 +0000 Subject: Old Tamil grammar (fwd) Message-ID: <161227024862.23782.17335710482259102885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are able to help with the following query, please respond to the sender directly, since I don't think he is a member of INDOLOGY. DW. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:59:09 +1000 From: Peter White To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Subject: Old Tamil grammar I am conducting a net search for a teacher colleague regarding some old tamil grammar. Please reply through this address or personally to Paul Modini Locked bag 88 Strawberryhills NSW 2012. "To specialists in Old Tamil linguistics and literature: request for information I seek information as to the syntactic role played by two forms of a pronominal/adverbial nature in Old Tamil. I am interested in making a comparison between either of these forms and a certain particle which seems to function pronominally in Old Korean and Old Japanese. I am interested in knowing whether *i*n in Ai*nku*run*u*ru 401-5 and *itu in Na*r*ri*nai 323-11, Kalittokai 61-9 and 82-23 and Pu*ran*a*n*u*ru 208-3 (these five being the only "pronominal"/"adverbial" examples) occur in constructions which can be interpreted, like i constructions in OK and OJ, as appositional constructions. (1) illustrates the OK construction with i: (1) han put'y*odu k*urat hasyan i all buddhas thus do (PERF ATT) PRN 'all the buddhas who have done thus'. On my analysis, i in (1) stands for put'y*odu, and is used instead of a second mention of put'y*odu. As far as OJ is concerned, I have reconstructed the following (the asterisk indicates that the construction is not actually attested): (2) *ma no hana matsu i ni interval ATT flower wait (ATT) PRN in 'in the interval (i.e. while) I wait for the flowers'. Here, on my analysis, i stands for ma, and is used instead of a second ma. Constructions (1) and (2) may be represented in a unified way as: (NPj ... prnj)NP, where the identical subscripts are used to indicate an anaphoric relation between the NP and the pronoun i. [For the purpose of electronic production using Microsoft, and in order to use underlining for the purpose of citing linguistic forms (in accordance with ordinary usage), in romanising Tamil words I have had to modify somewhat drastically the Madras University Tamil Lexicon system: in place of the diacritics an asterisk is used before the letter in question. Similarly, the system of romanisation used for the Korean example is that of the source, except that, for the purpose of electronic production using Microsoft, an asterisk is used, before the letter in question, in place of the McCune-Reischauer system's breve mark. Thus an asterisk has another function here than the usual ones of indicating an ungrammatical form or a reconstructed form.] Kindest regards peter From swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Wed May 29 19:30:16 1996 From: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 19:30:16 +0000 Subject: Hotel Accomodation - Xth World Sanskrit Conference - Jan 1997 , Bangalore, India Message-ID: <161227024860.23782.3751736534125377159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear participants, Please note that M/s GAIN NET is the official travel agent for the Xth World Sanskrit Conference (3-9 Jan 1997) and is entrusted with the responsibility of taking care of your requirements like Hotel accomodation, Transportation from the airport to the hotel, post-conference tours, domestic & international bookings, reconfirmations, Foreign Exchange requirements, etc., We have given him the mailing list of all the overseas participants and he will be contacting you soon. You may also directly contact him for all such needs. His address is as follows: Address : ----------- GAINNET Raheja Plaza Ground Floor Richmond Road Bangalore - 560 025 Karnataka (India) Phone Nos : ------------ + 91-80-551 2631 + 91-80-551 2651 + 91-80-551 2507 + 91-80-557 7549 FAX: ------- + 91-80-559 3451 + 91-80-558 7769 TLX: 0845-3218 GAIN IN E-MAIL: gainwell.gainnet at gems.vsnl.net.in ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOTEL TARIFF ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For your information, we are giving below the present tariff of some of the reputed hotels in Bangalore. The rates quoted below are for single occupancy rooms only (exclusive of taxes) and are subject to changes. For further details, please contact the travel agent. ________________________________________________ Hotel: Taj Residency Category: 5 Star Location: City Center Rate: US $ 110 (Std) 125 (Exec) ________________________________________________ Hotel: Taj West End Category: 5 Star Dlx Location: City Rate: US $ 190 _______________________________________________ Hotel: Oberoi Category: 5 Star Dlx Location: City Center Rate: US $ 190 _______________________________________________ Hotel: Windsor Manor Category: 5 Star Location: City Rate: US $ 110 (Std), 150 (Exec), 210 (Tower) __________________________________________________ Hotel: Holiday Inn Category: 5 Star Location: City Rate: US $ 100 __________________________________________________ Hotel: Ashoka Category: 5 Star Location: City Rate: US $ 90 __________________________________________________ Hotel: Gateway Category: 4 Star Location: City Center Rate: US $ 70 __________________________________________________ Hotel: Kensington Terrace Category: 4 Star Location: City Center Rate: US $ ?? 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With kind regards Yours sincerely, Dr S Siddaiah Co-ordinator _____________________________________________________ Secretariat Xth World Sanskrit Conference TARALABALU KENDRA 3rd Main, 2nd Block, RT Nagar BANGALORE - 560 032 India Tel: +91-80-3430017 +91-80-3332759 Fax: +91-80-3334541 E-mail: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-wscx.html ======================================================= From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu May 30 00:28:25 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 20:28:25 -0400 Subject: magic / directions in Indology? Message-ID: <161227024878.23782.8588026926073271387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande and Michael Witzel both acknowledge that theory is a part of the package that makes up an Indologist. Of course, I don't know anyone who would say otherwise. Nor do I know anyone who would deny that "Good, philologically sound,culturally well informed" translations are something to be desired. There are certain things about which everyone on this list would probably agree, like the things mentioned by Deshpande and Witzel. But there are genuine differences among us too, and I do not think that it is quite fair to reduce these differences to a simple matter of competence [i.e., "ours", i.e., editors of texts] vs. incompetence [i.e., of those who write treatises comparing St John and Ananda]. But notice that Witzel praises Staal's "fieldwork" -- i.e., his "salvage" work on the agnicayana. No mention of Staal's theoretical work that challenges Vedic philology on mantras, ritual, and meaning, etc. This perhaps suggests what exactly Witzel values, and I have no trouble with what Witzel values. I value these things too. If the implication is that Staal's fieldwork will outlive Staal's theory, that may be so. But I value Staal's theory, even if I do not necessarily agree with it. Sorry, but no matter how "enduring" Griffith's translation of the RV is, I do not value it as much as the transitory stimulus that I have gotten from arguing with Staal about mantras. I will probably never edit a Vedic text. This may be because I am not competent. I am not a Harvard graduate. But it also has to do with the fact that I am obliged to do other things, like washing dishes, cleaning toilets, and teaching dirty things like theory. If Michael Witzel is willing to support me financially, I will volunteer to edit some AVP pages for him. In the meantime, I will proceed to study the things that interest me, ignoring the bullying rhetoric that comes from both from the left and the right.... Sincerely, George Thompson From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed May 29 19:50:33 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 20:50:33 +0100 Subject: MJ Message-ID: <161227024875.23782.15406591539680245047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, He cannot be Arjuna. If it were so his boon from Indra(?) would have fred him from Urvashi's shaapa after one year spent in disguise. No, I stick to the gandharva theory but again, he might be one of Nakul or Sahadeva, if you really must have a paaNDava. I can never remember which one is proficient in music and arts... Bye, Girish Beeharry From zysk at is2.NYU.EDU Thu May 30 12:38:54 1996 From: zysk at is2.NYU.EDU (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 08:38:54 -0400 Subject: Jivan Institute Message-ID: <161227024881.23782.5449784709403180147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would greatly appreciate any information about the Jivan Institute, a not-for-profit organization based in Bellevue, Washington, and devoted to ecological preservation in India for the purpose of indigenous (Ayurvedic) phytomedicine development. Many thanks. From GALEWICZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Thu May 30 10:15:19 1996 From: GALEWICZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Cezary Galewicz) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 10:15:19 +0000 Subject: address? Message-ID: <161227024879.23782.8129257109864376563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date sent: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:52:31 BST > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Madhav Deshpande > To: Members of the list > Subject: address? > Does anyone have the current address for Professor Heesterman in > the Netherlands? Does he also have an email address? > Thanks. > Madhav Deshpande > According to my knowledge Professor Heesterman should be at the Viena University now. You can reach him at the following address: Institut fur Indologie, Universitatsstr. 7, Wien, Austria. tel.4300 2560. I don't know wether he uses e-mail. best regards Cezary Galewicz Jagiellonian University, Krakow From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu May 30 15:46:30 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 11:46:30 -0400 Subject: Indology: magic, methods and management Message-ID: <161227024891.23782.14786433085401789665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On a level of very great generality, at least, it would appear that we all agree with each other: the right hand [philology] needs to know what the left hand [theory] is doing, and vice versa. The disagreements seem to arise when we get down to specifics. I believe that Houben's criticism of Deeg's book [which I admit I have not seen] is valid insofar as Deeg fails to keep current with theory. Houben acknowledges the book's value to "Indological specialists" insofar as it is philologically well-grounded: i.e., as Houben says, "The author's collection of pre-Yaaska etymologies is useful, and I like his references to the importance of <> in the work of modern thinkers like Heidegger." [Yes, Heidegger's famous "die Sprache spricht..." reminds me of the goddess VAc, who herself says "aha'm eva' vA'ta iva pra' vAmi.... She is fond of alliteration as well as figura etymologica]. But I suspect [with Houben, I think] that many Indologists would have found Deeg's book entirely adequate as it stands, minus current theory. For such scholars, "the presentation of the facts" is enough. As it stands, Deeg's book will remain useful to us, no doubt like Grassmann's dictionary. Those who are fond of philology pay lip service to theory when necessary. Likewise those who are fond of theory will pay lip service to philology, but *only* when necessary. But their true colors appear in their work. Sincerely, George Thompson From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu May 30 16:56:48 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 12:56:48 -0400 Subject: Indology: magic, methods and management Message-ID: <161227024893.23782.4701607630180407326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If anyone happens to have retained a copy of Deshpande of 25 May and Fosse of 25 May on institutional budgeting, will you kindly send me a copy directly/privately? Many thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu May 30 17:30:00 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 13:30:00 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024895.23782.425316150654419842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Jan Houben for his recent posting re magic, for that in fact is the issue that most concerned me, in the posting that has otherwise led to the text vs theory discussion [for me an unintended digression]. His remarks show that, in his case, it is *not* a matter of mere lip service: he has persuaded me that he uses both hands, and both of them very well. The problems that Houben poses are deep and perhaps intractable. They make it extremely difficult for us to gain access to that much-discussed but little understood thing, "the Vedic world-view." If access to that view were easy, i.e., if I felt that I understand what I read in the RV, I would not have felt the need to have invested so much of my time in studying it. It is precisely because I do not understand that I am interested. It is fascinating, to me, as a philologist, to study, e.g., RV 4.42, an Atmastuti, about which many of the best Vedicists of the last 100 years, laboring greatly, can come to *no basic agreement whatsoever* about the simple matter of *who is speaking*! As for the linguistic turn referred to by Houben, I have taken it. It is a major reason why I think that discussion of "magical grammar" is necessary. That language appears to be inextricably woven into the fabric of the cosmos is a rather well-known Vedic metaphor that is, I think, largely consistent with the paradigm shift that has recently occurred. Perhaps this makes it more likely that we can make some progress in understanding "the Vedic world-view." In Elizarenkova's new book we see quite strongly the influence of Saussure, Benveniste, Jakobson, and the Moscow-Tartu school of semiotics, as well as a round-up of all of the usual suspects in Vedic studies. The semiotic approach that she has adopted, along with Toporov, Ivanov, Oguibenine, et al., is valuable in ways that I cannot go into here. Suffice it to say that she too uses both hands well. As for the term "magical grammar", it is Elizarenkova's. But she does not give an elaborate defense of it, nor can her book [devoted to poetics] be used as a starting point for critical reflections re magic. However, her view is, as far as I can see, entirely consistent with the one set forth in Tambiah's book [again, cf. his reference to Burke's definition of magic as "primitive rhetoric"]. If I can find the time, I will try to develop these ideas myself. Best wishes, George Thompson From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu May 30 17:43:25 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 13:43:25 -0400 Subject: Value Centered Management Message-ID: <161227024896.23782.13893122554546123551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks. I've received a copy of the Value Centered Management postings from 25 May that I earlier requested. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene Thursby ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Thu May 30 12:54:43 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 13:54:43 +0100 Subject: Jivan Institute Message-ID: <161227024883.23782.2417578311021444691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >I would greatly appreciate any information about the Jivan Institute, a >not-for-profit organization based in Bellevue, Washington, and devoted to >ecological preservation in India for the purpose of indigenous (Ayurvedic) >phytomedicine development. Many thanks. The email address is : info at jiva.ernet.in WWW sites are at: http://www.silverleaf.com/jiva/info/contact.html & http://www.ayurvedic.org/ I have met three members in London recently; they seem to be quite serious people. Bye, Girish Beeharry From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at Thu May 30 12:32:57 1996 From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 14:32:57 +0200 Subject: book request Message-ID: <161227024885.23782.13304978113679355890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A colleague at the Institut fuer Indologie (Vienna) is in urgent need of a copy or inter-library loan of Jye.s.thadeva's Yuktibhaa.saa, edited by T.Chandrasekharan. Might I ask the assistence of members of Indology as to libraries in possession of this book? Thank You, Max Nihom From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu May 30 14:44:57 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 15:44:57 +0100 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024889.23782.10930111416125119599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a reaction to George Thompson's posting of 24 May, I would here briefly address the "problem of magic", and deal in another memo with some other points raised by him. I certainly do not hold that "the discussion of magic is now pass'e". In Thompson's remarks and in his quotation from his forthcoming review of Elizarenkova's recent book (to which I saw earlier references but which I could not yet study), however, "magic" still functions as a well-established categorie and the impression one gets is that the problem of magic lies entirely in the objects categorized under this notion. In discussions in the last decennia it has become clear that we now have to take into account that magic as a category of cultural phenomena or cultural products (implicitly or explicitly contrasted with science and religion) is problematic in itself. This shift in the problematic is traced with remarkable clarity in Tambiah's Magic, Science and the Scope of Rationality. Let me add some loosely formulated further reflections on this topic, while trying to remain within Wujastyk's "two-screen" boundary: the problems of Magic, Science and Religion are intimately linked with problems of the relation between Reality, Thought and Language. In the traditional ideas about magic Reality is what is objectively given, and language and thought reflect this reality either correctly or incorrectly. If one makes the paradigm shift of the "linguistic turn" and starts to perceive the major importance of language in creating one's world in a very profound way, or if we do not believe in an objectively given reality with certain philosophical streams in Buddhism, then how to define the boundaries between magic and science and religion? Correlated with this is the problem that the sharp demarcation between language, meaning and referent is something which one cannot project to non-Western cultures and thought-systems without running into very serious difficulties. If part of the acts in a Vedic ritual seem to aim at creating a certain condition in the persons involved, should we consider this as magic directed towards inner conditions? Or should we consider these acts as early examples of (perhaps sometimes succesful) "neurolinguistic programming" and the acts in which external objects figure (like enemies to be overcome, etc.) as special derived cases? This is not a matter of trying to "upgrade" the status of these texts at all costs, but of trying to find the most suitable angle of approach. A naive acceptance of the category magic (versus science and religion) will be unacceptable to anyone who is even just distantly aware of recent discussions on this subject, but that does not mean that the word 'magic' may not be used anymore, only that additional critical reflections (for which recent discussions may provide useful startingpoints) are needed (and I do not know to what extent these are given in Elizarenkova's book or in Thompson's review). Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands. From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu May 30 14:57:19 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 15:57:19 +0100 Subject: Indology: magic, methods and management Message-ID: <161227024887.23782.8587147316144086726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an earlier message (24 May) I wrote: . . . But with such an Ivory-tower attitude Indologists should not be surprised to see that chairs for Indology are not renewed and that funding for their discipline quickly disappears. Indology, which used to be a fountainhead of creative ideas for the linguistic and at that period newly emerging social sciences in the 19th century has now become an area of muddy backwaters of outdated ideas and concepts in the religious and human sciences. George Thompson reacted in a memo on the same day: Jan Houben's recent remarks offer an interesting challenge to all Indologists, particularly in light of the previous remarks of Michael Witzel ( . . . delete) concerning 'the general contempt for "textual studies"' (delete) Witzel on the one hand calls for the editing of more texts; Houben on the other urges us to get current with our theory [anthropological theory in particular]. See further today's memo's by Witzel and Thompon. While the remark quoted above was indeed intended as a mild challenge to fellow Indologists, the intention was not to suggest that textual studies should be given up in favor of "getting current with our theory". The backbone of Indology has always been and will always be the conscientious dealing with "our" data. However, at points where we do bring in theory (and a term like "magic" is obviously highly theory-laden), we might as well try to be up-to- date. As far as I understood Witzel's position in the discussion last summer, his criticism of Rigveda-translations aiming at a broader public does not concern the attempt to popularize in itself, but rather the careless dealing with basic textual data. Although it is certainly licit to separate a phase of editing and philological work from a phase of theorizing the results, these two activities are of course in fact always closely intertwined. In a profound way, theory also precedes our "data". When I am allowed, in the light of Actor's recent suggestion, to quote from my recently published The Sambandha-samuddesa (chapter on relation) and Bhartrhari's Philosophy of Language (Groningen: Egbert Forsten, 1995, p. 12): "While thus a proper understanding presupposes critical editions, it should be emphasized that, especially in the case of a highly complex and interpretable text like the Vakyapadiya, editing also presupposes understanding and interpretation." And to quote Karl Popper (Objective Knowledge: an Evolutionary Approach, London 1972 p. 104-5): "Since all knowledge is theory-impregnated, it is all built on sand; but it can be improved by critically digging deeper; and by not taking any alleged 'data' for granted." How true the last phrase is for Indology became clear to me when I started to check the wordings of a "critical edition" of my texts with a number of manuscripts. An even stronger example is Dr. Isaacson's recent discovery of some hitherto unknown suutras of the Vaisesikas on the basis of manuscripts available in generally well accessible libraries in India (Isaacson, Materials for the Study of Vaisesika system, Dissertation Leiden, 1995). But such occasional discoveries, however spectacular they may be for those dealing with Sanskrit philosophical texts, are not sufficient to give Indology a strong place in the market place of modern academia. Here, again, it will not suffice to be aware of the rich "data" mines of which Indology can boast, but familiarity with modern theoretical developments in human and social sciences seems indispensible to "sell" our gold and precious metals; although it is to be admitted that it is often difficult to distinguish valuable contributions from "language games in jargon" (jargon = longhand for simple phenomena, instead of the scientifically useful technical terms which are shorthand for complex phenomena). It is especially difficult to make such distinction "in time", i.e. before one has wasted a lot of precious research time. Topic oriented multi-disciplinary seminars like the one resulting in the publication The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity (de Gruyter, Berlin-New York: with a price-tag of 248DM an expensive, at least partly European publication with useful contributions by, among others, Witzel (!), Erdosy, Southworth, Deshpande and others) may be helpful in some cases. While Indologists may fear the increasingly "business-like" management of Universities in view of the low numbers of students (cf. Deshpande's memo of 25 May), such a "business-like" approach may also take a positive turn (Lars Martin Fosse's memo 25 May) if it can be made clear that precious subjects deserve special treatment: oak bark is weighed per pound but cinnamon by decagrams. (The line of Dutch poetry is: "Wordt eikenschors bij't pond gewogen, men weegt kaneel bij't lood" (by A.C.W. Staring): this was quoted in the title of a recent report of a governmental Committee of "Geesteswetenschappen" in the Netherlands, by H.J.L. Vonhoff, who was so-far known for his strong political orientation towards business, but who turns out to be remarkably sensitive to the specific problems in this sector of modern Academia). Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands. From girish at mushika.wanet.com Thu May 30 22:59:26 1996 From: girish at mushika.wanet.com (girish at mushika.wanet.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 15:59:26 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font Message-ID: <161227024900.23782.4163164832922389206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am relating some questions on behalf Mr. Charles Wikner who is not an indology list member. Mr. Wikner is continuing to develop his Sanskrit font and would like to have input from indology members. Mr. Wikner needs some printed examples of the numeric accent encoding for the Saamaveda, where the numbers 1, 2, and 3 appear over the letters. If you can mail him some examples please contact me so I can provide his mailing address. Here are some questions he asked that I cannot confidently answer. If you can provide any information on these questions please send you comments to WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za or send to me and I will forward. Please also cc: to me since I am interested in the answers. Regarding the Saamaveda notes: >1. Is there a one-to-one translation between the numerals and the > accent system (e.g. 1=udaatta), if so, what the that translation? > The encoding scheme would then be something like a. aa.^ .... > >2. Or is this a musical notation independent of the accent system? > If so, I would use a different encoding scheme: a.2gna.3 aa.1 .... > >3. In the second line, there are further symbols above the line that I > can't figure out: at the end if _ni_ and _hotaa_ is an extra symbol > after the numeral -- what are these? [This question refers to some printing that has what looks like an 'M' rotated 90 degrees and next to one of the numeric accents. GS] > >4. What of those syllables that do not have a numeral above them? There is another question about two versions of the Yajurveda anunaasika (not including the 'g' version) that are 1) like candrabindu with a viraama under it in the regular character position and 2) somewhat like a script English 'U' with a bindu over it also appearing in the regular character position. Is it true that both are pronounced the same, with (1) appearing after short vowels and (2) appearing after long vowels? Additionally, what is the significance of the different versions of characters used for 1) 'a' (and 'aa', 'o', 'au') [one starting like '3' and one like 'p' with hatch marks], 2) 'j~n' [one more curved for lack of a better description and one slightly like '~n'], and 3) 'k.sa' [one vaguely like an ampersand and one somewhat like a "reversed" '~n']? Are all "proper" Sanskrit forms or are some only appropriate for Hindi? Mr. Wikner has been very receptive to suggestions for his font. I hope members of this list can provide him with information to help make his font even more useful. ----------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA girish at mushika.wanet.com From biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Thu May 30 22:08:05 1996 From: biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Thu, 30 May 96 18:08:05 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C3=ADndrAkutsA?= Message-ID: <161227024898.23782.17613606628974085707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know if this helps you or not, but, Kutsa figures in the JaiminIya brAhmaNa as the son of Indra (made from his two thighs. As such, I suppose he would perhaps qualify as divinity. He later goes on to seduce ZacI, who isn't capable of distinguishing between the two of them. (JB 3. 199) Loriliai Biernacki Univ. of Pennsyvania According to George Thompson: > > I have become interested in the dvandva compound =EDndrAkutsA, a hapax > legomenon at RV 5.31.9, where it is a vocative. What interests me is that > > Or is Kutsa a divine figure here? Perhaps the line between human and > divine is not so clear in Vedic? More and more I am beginning to think > so.... From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 31 05:43:01 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Fri, 31 May 96 01:43:01 -0400 Subject: Q: Kalividambanam Message-ID: <161227024902.23782.831928881156663120.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Wed, 29 May 1996, Ganesan wrote: >> Q: Works like Kalividambanam >> ******************************* >> I want to read works of the sort of kalividambanam by Nilakanta Diksitar. >> On social satire. Any other famous ones in Sanskrit? I remember reading a translation of the Pallava king Mahendra Verma's Mattavilasa Prahasana - I thought at the time that it was a satire. However, I'm not sure about the famous part - anyway how would you measure fame in the context of indology? Number of references in contemporary works/later works, variety of works/contexts in which a text or a part of the text is cited? Though the Mahabharatha story may be known throughout India, this doesn't mean that Vyasa's work is famous - which makes it even more difficult to measure fame. Kishore Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri May 31 13:31:54 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 31 May 96 08:31:54 -0500 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024906.23782.14976036270303670454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: steve at violet.berkeley.edu (Steven Poulos) Date: 30 May 1996 19:41:35 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley For Immediate Release Prof. George L. Hart III has been named to the endowed Chair in Tamil Studies by U.C. Berkeley Chancellor Chang-Lin Tien. Chancellor Tien's letter of appointment reads in part "Please accept the appointment of this endowed chair as an indication of my gratitude for your many years of teaching and service and for your scholarship which has reflected so favorably on the Berkeley campus." George Hart has been a Berkeley faculty member since 1973. He was promoted to full professor in 1981. A Harvard B.A., M.A. and Ph.D., Professor Hart is a graduate of the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at Harvard where his studies included both Tamil and Sanskrit. At Berkeley Professor Hart has developed the Tamil program of language, literature and cultural studies to be the most important of its kind in North America. Professor Hart is the author of textbooks for both Tamil and Sanskrit and of translations of classical Tamil poetry and of the Tamil Ramayana of Kampan. George Hart is married to Tamil lecturer Kausalya Hart who is also an author of several Tamil language textbooks. Background The Chair in Tamil Studies endowment was raised as a joint effort of the Center for South Asia Studies at U.C. Berkeley and the San Francisco Bay Area Fundraising Committee for the Chair in Tamil Studies The San Francisco Bay Area Fundraising Committee constituted itself four years ago to raise funds to support Tamil studies at Berkeley. Growing from a small group of concerned Bay Area Tamil Americans, the Committee ultimately reached out to incorporate Tamil Americans and Tamil Canadians as well as many other friends of Tamil throughout North America. Contributions were received from over 450 families with many of them making multiple donations. From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri May 31 12:45:28 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 31 May 96 08:45:28 -0400 Subject: Kaarakacakra? Message-ID: <161227024904.23782.10059522130648629210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am currently looking into the works called Kaarakacakra and the use of this term. Bhavaananda's work by this name is the most wellknown work. Coward/Kunjunni Raja (The Philosophy of the Grammarians) mention four other works by this name in their index. One of these called Karakacakradiipaprabhaa is a commentary by NaarayaNa on Vararuci's work called Kaarakacakra. Coward/Raja refer to the edition published in TSS 33, 1913. However, the published edition calls the work by the title Vaararucasamgraha, and makes no mention of the title Kaarakacakra. The second work by this title is by an author Ananta and is apparently only available in ms form (NCat 1. 159). There are three more works, which are apparently published, and I wonder if anyone has ever seen these. 1. Kaarakacakra of Dharmakiirti is a commentary on Vararuci's Kaarakacakra or Prayogamukha, and it has been published by M. Rangacarya from Madras in 1927. 2. Kaarakacakra of RaamataraNa "SiromaNi. Howard/Raja mention that this is published in 1883-1886, 1888, but give no further details of publication. 3. Kaarakacakra of Puru.sottamadeva. Howard/Raja do not mention this, but I have seen this work mentioned in other sources. I have Bhavaananda's work and the Diipaprabhaa on Vaararucasamgraha, but have not seen any of the other works. If you have seen any of these, let me know. I would be interested in getting photocopies or order these through interlibrary loan. Allen Thrasher, David Magier, and all those good guys out there ... Madhav Deshpande From athr at loc.gov Fri May 31 14:06:43 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 31 May 96 10:06:43 -0400 Subject: Kaarakacakra? Message-ID: <161227024908.23782.1698081307072416034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, An OCLC search shows the following 4 LC records and 1 Wisconsin record (I include all for documentation). I can't find anything on your 1. and 2. (Dharmakirti and Ramatarana Siromani) but 3. (PuruZottamadeva) is below. All are available on interlibrary loan. The fiche will be in SAMP at CRL in addition to LC. Allen LC CARD NO:92-906764 LC CALL NO:PK541 .B4853 A73 1992 AUTHOR: Aravindakumara, 1955- TITLE: Bhavananda-krta Karakacakra, eka adhyayana : Vyakaranasastra evam Navyanyaya ke aloka mem / EDITION: 1. samskarana. PLACE: Kurukshetra : PUBLISHER: Nirmala Buka Ejemsi, YEAR: 1992 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: xx, 308 p. ; 22 cm. NOTES: In Hindi; includes passages in Sanskrit. Title on added t.p.: Bhavananda's Karakacakra, a study. Revision of the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Kurukshetra Visvavidyalaya, Kurukshetra, 1982) under the title: Bhavananda- krta Karakacakra : eka samikshatmaka adhyayana. Includes indexes. Includes bibliographical references (p. [260]-269). Analytical study of Karakacakra, treatise on Sanskrit grammar. SUBJECT: Bhattacaryya, Bhavananda Siddhantavagisa. -- Karakacakra. Sanskrit language -- Grammar. OTHER: Bhavananda's Karakacakra, a study. Karakacakra. Next Record LC CARD NO:91-901604 LC CALL NO:Microfiche 91/61242 AUTHOR: Bhattacaryya, Bhavananda Siddhantavagisa. TITLE: Satikanuvada Karakacakram EDITION: Prathamavrttih. PLACE: Kalakatta : PUBLISHER: Chatra-Pustakalaya, YEAR: 1937 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 205, 3 p. ; 18 cm. NOTES: Bengali and Sanskrit. Cover title: Karakacakram. Work, with Sanskrit commentary and Bengali translation, on Sanskrit language and grammar. Master microform held by : DLC Microfiche. New Delhi : Library of Congress Office ; Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1991. 3 microfiches ; 11 x 15 cm. SUBJECT: Sanskrit language -- Grammar. ALT TITLE: Karakacakra. Bengali & Sanskrit OTHER: Govindacandra. Taranatha. Karakaprabha. 1937. Madhava Tarkalankara. Madhavi. 1937. Karakacakram. Next Record LC CARD NO:81-984038 LC CALL NO:PK541 .P87 1946 AUTHOR: Purusottamadeva, 12th cent. TITLE: Paribhasavrttih = Paribhasavrtti ; Jnapakasamuccayah = Jnapakasamuccaya ; Karakacakram = Karakacakra / EDITION: 1st ed. PLACE: Rajshahi : PUBLISHER: Varendra Research Museum, YEAR: 1946 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: ii, 36, 10, 136 p. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Savitaraya-smrtisamraksana-granthamala NOTES: In Sanskrit; introd. in English. Commentaries on Paribhasapatha and selections from Panini's Astadhyayi, and a treatise on case endings. Includes bibliographical references and index. SUBJECT: Panini. -- Astadhyayi. Sanskrit language -- Grammar. Sanskrit language -- Case. ALT TITLE: Paribhasavrtti OTHER: Bhattacharya, Dinesh Chandra. Purusottamadeva, 12th cent. Jnapakasamuccaya. 1946. Purusottamadeva, 12th cent. Karakacakra. 1946. Jnapakasamuccayah. Karakacakram. Next Record LC CARD NO:85-910479 LC CALL NO:Microfiche 85/70731 (P) AUTHOR: Bhavananda Siddhantavagisa. TITLE: Karakacakram PLACE: Banarasa : PUBLISHER: Caukhamba-Samskrta-Siriza-Aphisa, YEAR: 1942 (Microform 1985) PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2, 88 p. ; 19 cm. SERIES: Haridasa-Samskrta-granthamala ; 154 NOTES: In Sanskrit. Title on added t.p.: Karakachakram of M.M. Sri Bhavananda Siddhanta Vagisa Bhattacharya. Master microform held by: DLC. On the notion of case (karaka) and inflection (vibhakti) in Sanskrit grammar. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1985. 1 microfiche ; 11 x 15 cm. Next Record OCLC RECORD NO: 14149323 1 copy: Wisconsin AUTHOR: Bhavananda Siddhantavagisa. TITLE: Karakacakram / PLACE: Banarasa siti : PUBLISHER: Jayakrsnadasa-Haridasa Gupta, Caukhamba Samskrta Sirija Aphisa, YEAR: 1942 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 2, 88 p. ; 18 cm. SERIES: Haridasa-samskrta-Granthamala ; 154 NOTES: In Sanskrit. Cover title. Added t.p. in English. SUBJECT: Sanskrit language -- Case OTHER: Madhava Tarkalankara. Tripathi, Sitasarana. Misra, Brahmasankara. Sabdarthasaramanjari. On Fri, 31 May 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > I am currently looking into the works called Kaarakacakra and the > use of this term. Bhavaananda's work by this name is the most wellknown > work. Coward/Kunjunni Raja (The Philosophy of the Grammarians) mention > four other works by this name in their index. One of these called > Karakacakradiipaprabhaa is a commentary by NaarayaNa on Vararuci's work > called Kaarakacakra. Coward/Raja refer to the edition published in TSS > 33, 1913. However, the published edition calls the work by the title > Vaararucasamgraha, and makes no mention of the title Kaarakacakra. The > second work by this title is by an author Ananta and is apparently only > available in ms form (NCat 1. 159). There are three more works, which are > apparently published, and I wonder if anyone has ever seen these. > > 1. Kaarakacakra of Dharmakiirti is a commentary on Vararuci's > Kaarakacakra or Prayogamukha, and it has been published by M. Rangacarya > from Madras in 1927. > > 2. Kaarakacakra of RaamataraNa "SiromaNi. Howard/Raja mention > that this is published in 1883-1886, 1888, but give no further details of > publication. > > 3. Kaarakacakra of Puru.sottamadeva. Howard/Raja do not mention > this, but I have seen this work mentioned in other sources. > > I have Bhavaananda's work and the Diipaprabhaa on > Vaararucasamgraha, but have not seen any of the other works. If you have > seen any of these, let me know. I would be interested in getting > photocopies or order these through interlibrary loan. Allen Thrasher, > David Magier, and all those good guys out there ... > > Madhav Deshpande > > > >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 31 1996 May +0100 19:20:00 Date: 31 May 1996 19:20:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello Girish, In your message: <199605302259.PAA14877 at sd-dns-1.wanet.net> date: <31 May 96> You wrote on "Sanskrit characters for Wikner font": >Mr. Wikner needs some printed examples of the numeric accent encoding >for the Saamaveda, where the numbers 1, 2, and 3 appear over the letters. >If you can mail him some examples please contact me so I can provide >his mailing address. How about Theodor Benfey's _Die Hymnen des Samaveda_.Leipzig 1848? I think there must be newer editions which use the numerical accents, too. >> [Samaveda questions] I really don't know anything about the musical notation of the Samaveda, you should consult works like Wayne Howard's _Samavedic Chant_.New Haven and London 1977 or his _Veda Recitation in Vaaraa.nasii_.Delhi 1986 (not to speak of the older works by Richard Simon who published the Pu.spasuutra and wrote a paper on this theme). >There is another question about two versions of the Yajurveda anunaasika >(not including the 'g' version) that are 1) like candrabindu with a viraama Perhaps you should say better "halanta"-sign; this use of "viraama" is -- at least -- un-Paa.ninian, although found in many primers. >under it in the regular character position and 2) somewhat like a script >English 'U' with a bindu over it also appearing in the regular character >position. Is it true that both are pronounced the same, with (1) appearing >after short vowels and (2) appearing after long vowels? > >Additionally, what is the significance of the different versions of >characters used for 1) 'a' (and 'aa', 'o', 'au') [one starting like >'3' and one like 'p' with hatch marks], 2) 'j~n' [one more curved for >lack of a better description and one slightly like '~n'], and >3) 'k.sa' [one vaguely like an ampersand and one somewhat like a >"reversed" '~n']? Are all "proper" Sanskrit forms or are some only >appropriate for Hindi? It seems that the varieties of the different characters go back to different writing traditions. E.g. the "a" looking like "'p' with hatch marks" is already to be found in the Kashmirian "Saaradaa script. My impression is that the history of Devanagari typography and printing (in India and the rest of the world) is still to be written. I have not found any comprehensive (and reliable) monograph. Or am I wrong? \bye Peter Wyzlic