From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Sat Jun 1 05:21:13 1996 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 96 00:21:13 -0500 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024910.23782.13772716980589990352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Until recntly I would have agreed that the distinctions "magic" and "religion" and other such seemingly simplistic distinctions had been discussed until they took refuge of their own accord in the great discourse graveyard. The ultimate death knell had been sounded by Inden and others with their cries of "essentialism." But note the following from Jonathan Parry, Death in Banaras (Cambridge, 1994): "In anthropology the distinction between 'religion' and 'superstition' went out with the dodo - for which we might be entitled to breathe a deep sigh of relief were it not for the fact that for our informants it is alive and well. Modern scholarly squeamishness has tended to obscure this crucial sociological fact" (p. 228). Alas, the same can be said for the way terms like indrajaala and yaatu were used in Skt texts and their counterparts in modern languages, e.g. jaaduu in Hindi, etc. So, it turns out that these may actually be "indigenous categories" that cannot be so easily abandoned by exorcising our own orientalism and essentialism. Frederick M. Smith Univ. of Iowa From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 1 11:21:28 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 96 11:21:28 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font Message-ID: <161227024913.23782.16217979968734756737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 31 May 1996, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Perhaps you should say better "halanta"-sign; this use of "viraama" is -- at > least -- un-Paa.ninian, although found in many primers. Well, it's unlikely that Panini had any sign for halanta either, since he probably didn't use writing for Sanskrit. > My impression is that the history of Devanagari typography and printing (in > India and the rest of the world) is still to be written. I have not found > any comprehensive (and reliable) monograph. Or am I wrong? There is a three-volume history of Devanagari printing by an author called Naik, published some years back by the Govt. of Maharashtra, in Bombay I think. I don't have a copy, but I've seen the books and they are very useful, with lots of reproductions of early printing, title-pages, etc. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sat Jun 1 12:13:39 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 96 13:13:39 +0100 Subject: Light relief Message-ID: <161227024915.23782.8935546880925739740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> All you frustrated computer users, take a break! Here's an easy game to play. Here's an easy thing to say: If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, And the bus is interrupted as a very last resort, And the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, Then the socket packet pocket has an error to report! If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, And the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, And your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, Then your situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash! You can't say this? What a shame sir! We'll find you Another game sir. If the label on the cable on the table at your house, Says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, But your packets want to tunnel on another protocol, That's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall, And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss So your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, Then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, 'Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk, And the microcode instructions cause unnecessary risc, Then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM. Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your mom! (I don't know who wrote it, but s/he's got a point!) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From filipsky at site.cas.cz Sat Jun 1 21:54:41 1996 From: filipsky at site.cas.cz (filipsky at site.cas.cz) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 96 23:54:41 +0200 Subject: Michael Jackson Message-ID: <161227024917.23782.9488187498333048708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >Further to George Thompson's important inquiry concerning the identity of >Michael Jackson: > > According to the most esoteric Rauka UpaniSad, his real >name is mAyAkAla yakSa (the final letter "n" was added to confuse the >common folk). He is a ghost that has deceived even the gods into thinking >he is a gandharva, he has accomplished this thanks to his powerful mAyA. > > > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > As my Tamil sources tell me, no confusion of the common folk was intended. mAyAkAla yakSan (or yakkan at that) is an old Dravidian spirit, who by his thundering voice scares away wild boars and other pests from the fields of South Indian peasants. Jan Filipsky From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun Jun 2 11:32:01 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 11:32:01 +0000 Subject: Kyoto dharma files added to INDOLOGY web pages Message-ID: <161227024919.23782.4793491398793559059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enormous thanks to the Kyoto scholars, especially Profs. Tokunaga, Yano, and their colleagues and students, for the slew of smrti texts which were made freely available on the net a few weeks ago. I have made links to these files from the INDOLOGY web page, under "Virtual archive of e-texts", as well as having made copies of the files (and zipped them and extracted readme information) available from the INDOLOGY ftp site in London. So these and other files are now available via http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html as well as by direct anonymous ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts Best wishes, -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun Jun 2 11:35:17 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 11:35:17 +0000 Subject: How to unsubscribe Message-ID: <161227024922.23782.12662928788029099709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please keep a copy of this message for future reference. To unsubscribe from indology, send the message unsubscribe indology to the address listserv at liverpool.ac.uk Thank you, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon Jun 3 02:44:22 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 22:44:22 -0400 Subject: etymologies & MJ Message-ID: <161227024926.23782.3858333359309708714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps it would not be inappropriate, to use the double negative so dear to Gonda, to weave together two distinct, recent threads in this posting. It would seem to me that the recent spate of word-play on the name and character of MJ actually confirms my point about etymology and puns. Apparently the impulse to motivate semantic associations is so strong that even typically staid Indologists are inclined to participate in non-serious efforts to do so. It has always seemed to me to be striking that those most inclined to "bad puns" [i.e., bad etymologies] have inevitably been those most preoccupied with language: i.e., poets, linguists, philologists, et al. It would seem to me that the pleasure gained from such play by us is very similar to the satisfaction gained from such play [not necessarily non-serious] on the part of Vedic poets, YAska, and the grammatical tradition at large. The point is this: if we actually understood why we ourselves are inclined to this sort of thing, we might better understand why Vedic poets, grammarians, and early philosophers of language were too. Sincerely, George Thompson From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Jun 3 10:57:41 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 06:57:41 -0400 Subject: etymologies & MJ Message-ID: <161227024929.23782.9105982674322974453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To speak of puns and the Vedas, here are some. In the city of Pune, a generation or so ago, there was a special slang used by Brahmins to communicate with each other. If one wanted to criticize someone, that person would be called Veda"saastrasampanna, lit. "endowed with Vedas and "Saastras". Why would this be a bad word? The Marathi shortform for this word was ve-"saa-sampanna, which sounded close enough to ve"syaasampanna 'a person who visits a lots of prostitutes'. Another example is the word vyaktavaacaa. Panini has a rule: vyaktavaacaam samuccaara.ne. If the priestly fee received by a Brahmin was four Annas (Marathi: caar aa.ne), the priest would report to his colleagues that he had a vyaktavaacaa that day. The Brahmin boys studying Vedas and other texts at an institution in Pune would use the words 'puu.s.no hastaabhyaam' (lit. with the hands of Puu.san) to refer to - you guessed correctly - sexual acts with their hands. Enough sacrilege for today. Madhav Deshpande From yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp Mon Jun 3 02:22:40 1996 From: yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 11:22:40 +0900 Subject: Kyoto dharma files added to INDOLOGY web pages Message-ID: <161227024924.23782.17693555494660030012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After I placed the dharma files at my ftp directory I found some mistakes --- especially unnecessary linebreaks in prose texts. So I updated some files. We will continue improving our e-texts. Michio YANO Kyoto Sangyo Univesity yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (for indology mailing list) yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (for private communications) From Velu at relhist.uu.se Mon Jun 3 06:25:53 1996 From: Velu at relhist.uu.se (Velu at relhist.uu.se) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 11:25:53 +0500 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024927.23782.513386578291109278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, I am shocked to note at what happened to the endowment Chair of Tamil in Berkely Campus. Are the fund raisers satisfied to give an additional title to a full Professor in the same campus? I cannot figure out what was going on behind the Chancellor\s invitation. What does this appointment imply? Does this mean that Hart will get additional money? Was this endowment intended to boost his pay? It was Hart who wrote to me an encouraging letter and who suggested that there could be a possiblity of a chance for me after this year. He told me that he and myself should keep in touch, to make use of a possible future opportunity. I think that you can understand my disappointment as I seem to back at square number one from where I started, regarding suitable academic employment. I remember that you tried to do good for me, even without myself requesting anything. It appears that I have no chance of making to the U.S. Anyway, thank you very much for what you have done. with regards, A.Veluppillai Alvappillai Veluppillai Uppsala University History of Religions P.O. Box 1604 S-751 46 Uppsala tel: +46 18 18 22 93 fax: +46 18 12 84 71 e-mail: Velu at relhist.uu.se From als1 at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 3 16:34:59 1996 From: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu (william j alspaugh) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 11:34:59 -0500 Subject: Chemparathy article Message-ID: <161227024933.23782.15752334918306471279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Max Nihom's query, the article by George Chemparathy, "Saint Thomas and Udayana on God: an Essay in Comparison," is in the book Weg in die Zukunft: Festschrift fuer Prof. DDr. Anton Antweiler zu seinem 75. Geburtstag, ed. by Adel-Theodor Khoury and Margot Wiegels. (Leiden: Brill, 1975. Series: Studies in the History of Religions; supplements to Numen, v. 32). This was found in the ATLA Religion Database on CD-Rom; not found in Philosopher's Index on CD-Rom. Bill Alspaugh, U. of Chicago Library Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 03 1996 Jun +0100 20:02:00 Date: 03 Jun 1996 20:02:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: peter at pwyz.rhein.de Hello ucgadkw, In your message: <960601111925.17C-100000 at ucl.ac.uk> date: <03 Jun 96> You wrote on "Re: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font": >> Perhaps you should say better "halanta"-sign; this use of "viraama" is -- >> at least -- un-Paa.ninian, although found in many primers. > >Well, it's unlikely that Panini had any sign for halanta either, since he >probably didn't use writing for Sanskrit. You are right. While Paa.nini knows halantyam (1.3.3) "halanta" occurs the first time in Kaatyaayana's vaarttikas. But this has nothing to do with with written language. I am so familiar with the halanta-cihna of modern Indian grammars that I have transposed this usage to Paa.nini's time. By the way, I may point to an article of H.R. Kapadia who argues strongly against the use of both "viraama" and "hal", see Kapadia: "A detailed exposition of the Naagarii, Gujaraatii and Mo.dii scripts." In: ABORI. 19 (1938), p. 386-418, esp. p. 403, n.1: "No grammar written in Sanskrit that I have come across mentions that the nether stroke ... goes by the name of viraama or hal. Consequently is this a wront statement due to an improper understanding of the following suutra occurring in A.s.taadhyaayiisuutraaa.tha (I.4 110): viraamo 'vasaanam." >There is a three-volume history of Devanagari printing by an author called >Naik, published some years back by the Govt. of Maharashtra, in Bombay I >think. I don't have a copy, but I've seen the books and they are very >useful, with lots of reproductions of early printing, title-pages, etc. We don't have it here, it seems. \bye Peter Wyzlic From als1 at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 3 18:47:19 1996 From: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu (william j alspaugh) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 13:47:19 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font Message-ID: <161227024936.23782.16473331259509357078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, the book Dominik was referring to is probably Typography of Devanagari, by Bapurao S. Naik, 1st ed., rev. (Bombay: Directorate of Languages, Govt. of Maharashtra, 1971. 3v.) The Marathi looks like it may be a translation. The English should be widely available. Bill Alspaugh, U. of Chicago Library Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu From gat4 at columbia.edu Mon Jun 3 18:19:36 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 14:19:36 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit characters for Wikner font Message-ID: <161227024935.23782.10968174429050440970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 1 June 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > There is a three-volume history of Devanagari printing by an author called > Naik, published some years back by the Govt. of Maharashtra, in Bombay I > think. I don't have a copy, but I've seen the books and they are very > useful, with lots of reproductions of early printing, title-pages, etc. > The book referred to is indeed very useful, and includes among other things many samples of fonts from particular foundries of the past. Here is a more complete reference for the first volume of this work, which is the only one I have seen: Baapuuraav Naaiik, _Devanaagarii mudraak.saralekhanakalaa_, kha.m.da pahilaa, Mu.mbaii [Bombay]: Mahaaraa.s.tra Raajya Saahitya Sa.msk.rtii Ma.m.da_la, 1982. The book is in Marathi. From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at Mon Jun 3 14:01:55 1996 From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 16:01:55 +0200 Subject: Chemparathy article Message-ID: <161227024931.23782.17779095302964298272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to locate an article by George Chemparathy which compares Udayana and Thomas Aquinas. Might anyone know the title and location of this article? Thanks, Max Nihom E-Mail: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 4 00:37:41 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 17:37:41 -0700 Subject: Need B.N.S. Yadav book Message-ID: <161227024938.23782.6631496117164218887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am unable to locate a copy of the folowing book: Society and Culture in Northern India in the Twelfth Century. B. N. S. Yadav (or is it Yadava?) Allahabad, 1973 It is mentioned by Romila Thapar in "Epic and History,"in Past & Present, Number 125 (1989):21, n. Any help would be appreciated. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California, Berkeley From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Jun 4 04:19:40 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 21:19:40 -0700 Subject: Aryan invasion - interesting review Message-ID: <161227024940.23782.10108495979010915891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The February 9, 1996 issue of Frontline (vol. 13, no. 2), a magazine from the house of The Hindu, has an extremely well-written book review by Shereen Ratnagar, Prof. of archeology at the Jawaharlal Nehru University. The books she is reviewing here are titled "Aryan Invasion of India" (1993) and "The Politics of History" (1995) by one Navratna S. Rajaram, published by Voice of India, New Delhi. This reviewer has addressed some of the assumptions that have gone into the revisionist history, and also denounced the motivations behind it. The most hard-hitting portion of the review examines the "Vasishta's head" that was originally published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies, vol 18, by H. H. Hicks and R. N. Anderson. The important points she makes about this article are - 1. The metal head was not found in any archeological site, nor in a stratum with other dateable finds. She does not say where it was found. Does anyone here know? 2. The carbon sample used for radioactive dating came from "a small quantity of carbon deposits on the inside surface". Obviously, the date found is not of the head directly, but of other material, the environment of its source being unknown. 3. Hicks and Anderson do not give the exact composition of the head anywhere in their article, it seems. It is "copper-based" in one place, "brass" elsewhere and also "with a high silver content" somewhere else. The author of the books being reviewed calls it "copper-based natural (?!!) brass". Ms. Ratnagar makes the highly legitimate criticism that if the metal head is indeed brass, then it must contain zinc, which is seen only from later periods than copper is first seen, because of technical difficulties in smelting zinc. If the material is indeed brass, the earliest date for it is close to 100 BCE. 4. An inscription on the head is cited as the source for identifying the metal head as Vasishta's. Hicks and Anderson say that the inscription dates from the 13th-14th cent. AD. However, they do not provide a photograph or copy of the inscription in their article itself. Assuming that the head itself was made in a period close to 3000 BCE, it must be taken on trust that it was correctly identified by those who made the inscription on it at such a late date. The more probable explanation is that the head itself was cast by those who made the inscription, which brings the date of "Vasishta's head" to the 13th cent. AD. 5. Hicks and Anderson are said to sloppy in their referencing, attributing books to the wrong authors. Ms. Ratnagar uses the words "appears tainted by dishonesty". Much is made of the hair-style as being unique to Vasishta's family. What is amusing is that the reviewer provides a picture of a modern eka-mukha lingam from Brindavan, next to the picture of Vasishta's head. The resemblance is so striking, as to make any conclusions from artistic/stylistic grounds completely unreliable. All of this is startling news to me. Are there any other solid researches into "Vasishta's head"? Have there been follow-up studies to the original one by Hicks and Anderson? From a scientist's point of view, the deficiencies pointed out in their work seem serious. For example, Ms. Ratnagar says that the radio- carbon dating in the original article did not cite a laboratory reference. Who did the experiments, and where? Hicks and Anderson should be held accountable to disclose this information. Even with this, the fact that the dating relies on indirect evidence makes it prone to error. I don't know if Hicks and Anderson were purposely being dishonest - such charges of dishonesty are very serious and are not made lightly in the world of scientists and engineers. But there do seem to be glaring deficiencies in the original work, if Ms. Ratnagar is right. There are other interesting arguments in the review, which I won't go into here. But it is interesting to note that Ms. Ratnagar says that nobody seriously subscribes to the "invasion" theory any more. And she is right in saying "we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater", when deriving the ultimate ancestry of Vedic from some proto-Indo European tongue. She also says that it is unjustified to infer about language purely from archeological artefacts - which seems highly reasonable, in the absence of decipherable inscriptions on the artefacts. S. Vidyasankar ps. The same issue of Frontline has an article by E. M. S. Namboodiripad, about r.gvedic chanting, from a typically Marxist perspective. Mr. Namboodiripad enjoys the double privilege of having learnt the r.gveda as a youngster, and then graduating into a leader of Indian communists in his political career. If nothing else, it catalogs one man's disillusionment with having to learn the veda by rote, without understanding a word of it. Never mind that he contradicts himself, within the space of two paragraphs, regarding the political identity or otherwise of the Indian people(s). From amitava.sen at camp.org Tue Jun 4 12:39:00 1996 From: amitava.sen at camp.org (CAMP: Sen, Amitava) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 08:39:00 -0400 Subject: FW: Aryan invasion - interesting review Message-ID: <161227024943.23782.6238206222711881121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello: In the light of the message below, a very interesting article on Aryan Invasion, I have a very basic question: What is the commonly accepted theory now on Aryan Invasion, or Indo-European/Aryan origin of Vedic society? Lately I have heard and read varying accounts and theories on this invasion. Revisionist historians seem to having a ball in rewriting Vedic history and the invasion. Is there anyone on this list who can provide some insight on this issue? By the way, can anyone point me a bookstore where I can buy these books? Thanks Amitava ---------- >From: indology-request To: Members of the list Subject: Aryan invasion - interesting review Date: Tuesday, June 04, 1996 5:27AM The February 9, 1996 issue of Frontline (vol. 13, no. 2), a magazine from the house of The Hindu, has an extremely well-written book review by Shereen Ratnagar, Prof. of archeology at the Jawaharlal Nehru University. The books she is reviewing here are titled "Aryan Invasion of India" (1993) and "The Politics of History" (1995) by one Navratna S. Rajaram, published by Voice of India, New Delhi. This reviewer has addressed some of the assumptions that have gone into the revisionist history, and also denounced the motivations behind it. The most hard-hitting portion of the review examines the "Vasishta's head" that was originally published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies, vol 18, by H. H. Hicks and R. N. Anderson. The important points she makes about this article are - 1. The metal head was not found in any archeological site, nor in a stratum with other dateable finds. She does not say where it was found. Does anyone here know? 2. The carbon sample used for radioactive dating came from "a small quantity of carbon deposits on the inside surface". Obviously, the date found is not of the head directly, but of other material, the environment of its source being unknown. 3. Hicks and Anderson do not give the exact composition of the head anywhere in their article, it seems. It is "copper-based" in one place, "brass" elsewhere and also "with a high silver content" somewhere else. The author of the books being reviewed calls it "copper-based natural (?!!) brass". Ms. Ratnagar makes the highly legitimate criticism that if the metal head is indeed brass, then it must contain zinc, which is seen only from later periods than copper is first seen, because of technical difficulties in smelting zinc. If the material is indeed brass, the earliest date for it is close to 100 BCE. 4. An inscription on the head is cited as the source for identifying the metal head as Vasishta's. Hicks and Anderson say that the inscription dates from the 13th-14th cent. AD. However, they do not provide a photograph or copy of the inscription in their article itself. Assuming that the head itself was made in a period close to 3000 BCE, it must be taken on trust that it was correctly identified by those who made the inscription on it at such a late date. The more probable explanation is that the head itself was cast by those who made the inscription, which brings the date of "Vasishta's head" to the 13th cent. AD. 5. Hicks and Anderson are said to sloppy in their referencing, attributing books to the wrong authors. Ms. Ratnagar uses the words "appears tainted by dishonesty". Much is made of the hair-style as being unique to Vasishta's family. What is amusing is that the reviewer provides a picture of a modern eka-mukha lingam from Brindavan, next to the picture of Vasishta's head. The resemblance is so striking, as to make any conclusions from artistic/stylistic grounds completely unreliable. All of this is startling news to me. Are there any other solid researches into "Vasishta's head"? Have there been follow-up studies to the original one by Hicks and Anderson? From a scientist's point of view, the deficiencies pointed out in their work seem serious. For example, Ms. Ratnagar says that the radio- carbon dating in the original article did not cite a laboratory reference. Who did the experiments, and where? Hicks and Anderson should be held accountable to disclose this information. Even with this, the fact that the dating relies on indirect evidence makes it prone to error. I don't know if Hicks and Anderson were purposely being dishonest - such charges of dishonesty are very serious and are not made lightly in the world of scientists and engineers. But there do seem to be glaring deficiencies in the original work, if Ms. Ratnagar is right. There are other interesting arguments in the review, which I won't go into here. But it is interesting to note that Ms. Ratnagar says that nobody seriously subscribes to the "invasion" theory any more. And she is right in saying "we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater", when deriving the ultimate ancestry of Vedic from some proto-Indo European tongue. She also says that it is unjustified to infer about language purely from archeological artefacts - which seems highly reasonable, in the absence of decipherable inscriptions on the artefacts. S. Vidyasankar ps. The same issue of Frontline has an article by E. M. S. Namboodiripad, about r.gvedic chanting, from a typically Marxist perspective. Mr. Namboodiripad enjoys the double privilege of having learnt the r.gveda as a youngster, and then graduating into a leader of Indian communists in his political career. If nothing else, it catalogs one man's disillusionment with having to learn the veda by rote, without understanding a word of it. Never mind that he contradicts himself, within the space of two paragraphs, regarding the political identity or otherwise of the Indian people(s). From Velu at relhist.uu.se Tue Jun 4 05:23:49 1996 From: Velu at relhist.uu.se (Velu at relhist.uu.se) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 10:23:49 +0500 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024941.23782.17670822383150432343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all those who received my communication yesterday, I am very, very sorry that what I intended as a personal communication between Dr.Ganesan, a very good friend of mine, and myself, has been inadvertently broadcast throughout the Indology circle. I feel very embarassed myself at what had happened. I realise that I have caused enormous embarassment to Prof. Hart, without verifying what really happened. I take this opporutunity to apologise to him. I appeal to the readers to treat my message as cancelled. A.Veluppillai Alvappillai Veluppillai Uppsala University History of Religions P.O. Box 1604 S-751 46 Uppsala tel: +46 18 18 22 93 fax: +46 18 12 84 71 e-mail: Velu at relhist.uu.se From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Tue Jun 4 20:30:10 1996 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 13:30:10 -0700 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024950.23782.13420517347409498641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: private email sent to Indology This type of unfortunate mistake can be prevented from recurring in the future if the Indology list maintainers would simply set the Reply-To field of all Indology mail to the sender instead of the list as a whole. Mail inadvertently sent to the list as a whole is either a nuisance, or, as in this case, extremely embarrassing to both the sender and the parties mentioned within the email. Will Dominik or Chris (or whoever else is in charge) please effect this change? Mani From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Jun 4 18:18:27 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 14:18:27 -0400 Subject: etymologies & MJ Message-ID: <161227024945.23782.2037869627687601081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Enough sacrilege for today. >> Madhav Deshpande Well, well, there seems to be good reason for the Tamil idiom "samskrtam pEsarAL" (lit. (they) are speaking Sanskrit) to refer to such talk ;-) -Srini. From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue Jun 4 19:22:07 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 14:22:07 -0500 Subject: Rig Veda Question Message-ID: <161227024948.23782.13128386622027608600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been working on a reconstruction of an--apparently--anonymous Rig Veda in electronic form, found in the RLIN (attributed to a Robert Kahn/Khan-- if anyone knows of him), and have a question re. the following viz parishishhTham.h: These are apparently later additions - from the nature of the language - I can make sens out of most (:-)! One of these is the so-called shriisuuktam.h. At the end of 10, there is a long parishishhTham.h also. Apparently, however, the e-text I am using does not include all of these. In the interests of editing, answers to the following would be of great help. Our goal is to provide a downloadable e-RV sometime soon in ITRANS form, with--hopefully pending some joiner-inners as proofreaders--a devanagari version with accents in a few months. Could anyone please offer a brief thumbnail as to the nature of these components and their relative place in the text: temporally, authoritatively, and syntactically. If this is not a question of general interest to the list, please direct your replies to me directly. I also welcome any reports on the mysterious origin of the text if the names above ring a bell with anyone. Thank you in advance, John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jun 4 21:51:44 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 17:51:44 -0400 Subject: Rig Veda Question Message-ID: <161227024954.23782.11448077929849162807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Srisukta and other Khilaani are of course part of the RV Khila collection, critically edited by I. Scheftelowitz, Die Apokryphen des Rgveda, Breslau 1906, reprint Hildesheim:Olms 1966. The Srisukta is RVKh 2.6 (accented) The Khilas are collected only in one extant MS, of Kashmir, which also contains the little used Kashmirian RV. In India proper only bits and pieces of the Khilas have been preserved, usually attached to one or the other RV hymn, and already printed by M. Mueller, Aufrecht ( p. 672 sqq.; Srisukta p. 674, no accents) Satavalekar, RV has 36 of them. Recitation in Howard, SV Chant p. 494, from Udupi. The khilas are of various ages. Some are Rvic, or early post-RVic (mentioning the 10 Kings Battle). Others (or parts of them) have Brahmana time grammar, others (wrongly accented or completely unaccented!) are still later (Epic/Puranic)... For example: The Srisukta has 15 standard verses, some have 19 (only in Kashmir), but there are various further additions, up to 30 verses. I have even seen a Buddhist version of it in Nepal. For more details please write privately. M. Witzel From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jun 4 22:27:45 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 22:27:45 +0000 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024952.23782.3852177805602548427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > > Will Dominik or Chris (or whoever else is in charge) please effect this > change? I'm sorry, but no. This issue has been discussed many times in INDOLOGY's five or six year life, and the consensus is always to have the list work with the current defaults. See back issues for the previous discussions (use the keyword search facility offered by the Liverpool gopher). Again, I don't mean to be harsh about this, but it isn't *very* hard to reply to the right person, and mistakes don't happen all that often. The current defaults make free open discussion between indologists particularly easy and convenient, which is the purpose of the list. Best wishes, and take care of those fingers over the "r"! Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England. FAX +44-171-611-8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Wed Jun 5 00:57:06 1996 From: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 00:57:06 +0000 Subject: Circulars of Xth World Sanskrit Conference Message-ID: <161227024947.23782.4383400754419967860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Xth WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE - 1997 Bangalore, India _______________________________________________________________ Dear members of Indology, While responding to the circulars issued by the organizing committee of the Xth World Sanskrit Conference, it is noticed that some of the scholars interested in attending the conference, are inadvertently replying to the Indology group. Such replies may be resented by other members of the group while looking into their mail. The participants of the conference are, therefore, requested to be cautious and send their replies to the specific e-mail address of the conference (swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in) and not to the indology list. Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji Hon. President _____________________________________________________ Secretariat Xth World Sanskrit Conference TARALABALU KENDRA 3rd Main, 2nd Block, RT Nagar BANGALORE - 560 032 Karnataka [ India ] Tel: +91-80-3430017 +91-80-3332759 Fax: +91-80-3334541 E-mail: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-wscx.html ======================================================= From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Jun 4 22:17:29 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 10:17:29 +1200 Subject: Chair in Tamil Studies, UC, Berkeley Message-ID: <161227024955.23782.12788334628666374780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >from recurring in the future if the Indology list >maintainers would simply set the Reply-To field of >all Indology mail to the sender instead of the list I think we have been through this whole thing once before, when we unanimously decided to keep the Reply-To field pointing to Indology since the most common intent of a posting is to elicit a group discussion. We just have to exercise a bit more caution in replying to messages. - & From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Jun 5 17:19:37 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 12:19:37 -0500 Subject: Aryan Invasion - Interesting Review Message-ID: <161227024972.23782.1045086269121239442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 5, 1996 Re: Aryan Invasion - Interesting Review ****************************************** Following are some old postings in Indology. The hindutva forces' attempts at revisionism, vedic datings, statements like "all indus valley people were 'speaking' in Sanskrit" seem suspect to me. Some even say Aryans started spreading westward from India! Supporting Dr. Cynthia Talbot's suggestion - qualified academics should publish material on this 'hot' topic in India. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ******************************************************************************* Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 07:47:00 +0000 Reply-To: Indology discussion list Sender: Indology discussion list From: JBRONKHO at CH.UNIL.ULYS Subject: Vedic dates Would anyone be willing to offer intelligent comments on the recent article by Harry H. Hicks and Robert N. Anderson "Analysis of an Indo-European Vedic Aryan Head - 4500-2500 B.C."? This article appeared in a recent issue of the Journal of Indo-European Studies. Unfortunately I haven't got further details with me. Johannes Bronkhorst ******************************************************************************* Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 10:04:50 CET From: Dominik Wujastyk Original-Sender: ucgadkw at mail-a.bcc.ac.uk Reply-To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Message-Id: <36293.D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk> To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Copper head of Vasishtha? In the "Arts & Society" section of *Far Eastern Economic Review" of 3 December 1992, p.32, there is a report by M. K. Tikku in New Delhi entitled "A head for history: Copper image sheds light on Aryan migration". The report describes a copper head bought by Harry Hicks in 1958, now in his private museum in California, the Foundation for Cultural Preservation. Apparently the head has been dated as between 5200 and 5710 years old by scientific tests performed at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Nuclear Sciences in Zurich. [Any chance of checking this out, Peter?] I won't reproduce the argumentation, but the article claims that the head is that of Vasishtha as described in the Rig Veda. This is then taken as evidence of the Aryans being in India before the Indus valley civilization, and of them developing the RV in India, rather than before their arrival on the N. Indian plains. The article gives no references to scholarly literature, and the whole thing is rather puzzling. If the head really is that old, it is of great interest and significance, although I would not jump to the conclusions mentioned above. Does anyone else know more about this artefact? Can you point to literature on it? Dominik ---------------- Dominik Wujastyk d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk +44 71 611 8467 ****************************************************************************** Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 11:45:09 CET From: Harry Falk Subject: Re: Copper head of Vasishtha? To: Chris Wolff In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 03 Feb 93 10:04:50 GMT from Message-ID: <"mailhub.li.216:05.01.93.10.54.55"@liverpool.ac.uk> if I recall it properly the head was subject of a question on this list about a year ago, the question was put by Johannes Bronkhorst. The head is shown in an article by probably the same author Dom mentions in one of the latest issues of the Journal of Indo-European Studies (JIES). I am not an art historian, but dating this thing earlier than the beginning of the current millennium would be absurd. It is quite some time now I read the JIES article, but I still remember the reaction: the author(s) is either completety out of his mind or an impostor. The complete lack of secondary literature in the article and the (seemingly) false claim to have a reputed institute (does it exist, Peter?) backing his datings make the second solution more likely. Harry ****************************************************************************** From: vidya The February 9, 1996 issue of Frontline (vol. 13, no. 2), a magazine from the house of The Hindu, has an extremely well-written book review by Shereen Ratnagar, Prof. of archeology at the Jawaharlal Nehru University. The books she is reviewing here are titled "Aryan Invasion of India" (1993) and "The Politics of History" (1995) by one Navratna S. Rajaram, published by Voice of India, New Delhi. This reviewer has addressed some of the assumptions that have gone into the revisionist history, and also denounced the motivations behind it. The most hard-hitting portion of the review examines the "Vasishta's head" that was originally published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies, vol 18, by H. H. Hicks and R. N. Anderson. The important points she makes about this article are - 1. The metal head was not found in any archeological site, nor in a stratum with other dateable finds. She does not say where it was found. Does anyone here know? 2. The carbon sample used for radioactive dating came from "a small quantity of carbon deposits on the inside surface". Obviously, the date found is not of the head directly, but of other material, the environment of its source being unknown. 3. Hicks and Anderson do not give the exact composition of the head anywhere in their article, it seems. It is "copper-based" in one place, "brass" elsewhere and also "with a high silver content" somewhere else. The author of the books being reviewed calls it "copper-based natural (?!!) brass". Ms. Ratnagar makes the highly legitimate criticism that if the metal head is indeed brass, then it must contain zinc, which is seen only from later periods than copper is first seen, because of technical difficulties in smelting zinc. If the material is indeed brass, the earliest date for it is close to 100 BCE. 4. An inscription on the head is cited as the source for identifying the metal head as Vasishta's. Hicks and Anderson say that the inscription dates from the 13th-14th cent. AD. However, they do not provide a photograph or copy of the inscription in their article itself. Assuming that the head itself was made in a period close to 3000 BCE, it must be taken on trust that it was correctly identified by those who made the inscription on it at such a late date. The more probable explanation is that the head itself was cast by those who made the inscription, which brings the date of "Vasishta's head" to the 13th cent. AD. 5. Hicks and Anderson are said to sloppy in their referencing, attributing books to the wrong authors. Ms. Ratnagar uses the words "appears tainted by dishonesty". Much is made of the hair-style as being unique to Vasishta's family. What is amusing is that the reviewer provides a picture of a modern eka-mukha lingam from Brindavan, next to the picture of Vasishta's head. The resemblance is so striking, as to make any conclusions from artistic/stylistic grounds completely unreliable. All of this is startling news to me. Are there any other solid researches into "Vasishta's head"? Have there been follow-up studies to the original one by Hicks and Anderson? From a scientist's point of view, the deficiencies pointed out in their work seem serious. For example, Ms. Ratnagar says that the radio- carbon dating in the original article did not cite a laboratory reference. Who did the experiments, and where? Hicks and Anderson should be held accountable to disclose this information. Even with this, the fact that the dating relies on indirect evidence makes it prone to error. I don't know if Hicks and Anderson were purposely being dishonest - such charges of dishonesty are very serious and are not made lightly in the world of scientists and engineers. But there do seem to be glaring deficiencies in the original work, if Ms. Ratnagar is right. There are other interesting arguments in the review, which I won't go into here. But it is interesting to note that Ms. Ratnagar says that nobody seriously subscribes to the "invasion" theory any more. And she is right in saying "we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater", when deriving the ultimate ancestry of Vedic from some proto-Indo European tongue. She also says that it is unjustified to infer about language purely from archeological artefacts - which seems highly reasonable, in the absence of decipherable inscriptions on the artefacts. S. Vidyasankar ps. The same issue of Frontline has an article by E. M. S. Namboodiripad, about r.gvedic chanting, from a typically Marxist perspective. Mr. Namboodiripad enjoys the double privilege of having learnt the r.gveda as a youngster, and then graduating into a leader of Indian communists in his political career. If nothing else, it catalogs one man's disillusionment with having to learn the veda by rote, without understanding a word of it. Never mind that he contradicts himself, within the space of two paragraphs, regarding the political identity or otherwise of the Indian people(s). ****************************************************************************** From GALEWICZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Wed Jun 5 12:22:34 1996 From: GALEWICZ at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Cezary Galewicz) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 12:22:34 +0000 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024957.23782.13485036577816451543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date sent: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:38:12 BST > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (George Thompson) > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: overemphasis on magic On May 30 George Thompson wrote : > > As for the term "magical grammar", it is Elizarenkova's. But she does not > give an elaborate defense of it, nor can her book [devoted to poetics] be > used as a starting point for critical reflections re magic. However, her > view is, as far as I can see, entirely consistent with the one set forth in > Tambiah's book [again, cf. his reference to Burke's definition of magic as > "primitive rhetoric"]. If the discussion is not closed yet: a short comment: In the light of the suggestion that magic [weltanschaung] seems to play a crucial role in Vedic world-view especially through its relation to rhetorics or poetics I should like to recall Paul Thieme's review of L.Renou's EVP I in JAOS 1956(?), where he already called the phenomenon "magical poetics" (or was it "poetical magic" ?- sorry, if my memory fails me). best regards Cezary Galewicz Institute of Oriental Philology UJ, Krakow From shreemaa at napanet.net Wed Jun 5 18:13:50 1996 From: shreemaa at napanet.net (Swami Satyananda) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 18:13:50 +0000 Subject: Abstract Book Review Message-ID: <161227024959.23782.5716607343151105392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Fellow Scholars: Below is an abstract of a Book Review for the Chandi Path, recently published by Motilal Banarsidass in India and Devi Mandir in the US. We invite your comments. Scripture is most highly regarded within literature because of its capacity to communicate inspiration and information pertaining to man's quest for personal transformation. The primary task of the translator is to communicate the bhava, what we would call the attitude of awareness or intensity or debth of feeling, of the original propounders. With this understanding, the Chandi Path is a road map from the confusions of duality into the heart of divine reality, which in this text is termed as the Divine Mother. The key to the understanding and application of this allegory is the interpretation of the proper names utilized throughout the scripture. The root chand means to tear or to cut, the suffix i means the female personification of cause, and we have translated Chandi as the cause of cutting through duality, She Who Tears Apart Duality, She Who Tears Apart Thought. In the Chandi Path, as we understand it, the battle which is being fought is not a far-off history which took place in another time, in another location. Rather, it is an internal battle which each of us is facing continually as we perceive every new set of circumstances, as we encounter every new form of thought. We define dharma as the highest ideal of perfection, and in every circumstance, in every action, each of us is striving to manifest that highest ideal of perfection. Throughout our experiences in life, continually voices speak up within us proclaiming that it is possible for us to do a little bit less than perfection in any given circumstance. These voices are the thought forms of asuras, the forces which increase the selfishness of the individual and lead him or her in the path of divisive action. The Gods or Devas or Shining Ones are the forces of unity, which inspire the surrender of selfishness and expand into cohesive expressions of divinity. The Chandi Path describes the story of how the Gods unite in prayer to the divine energy of the universe, in response to which, the Divine Mother puts Too Much and Too Little into balance, bestows the wisdom which destroys Self-Conceit and Self-Deprecation, the armies of the Great Ego commanded by such generals as Anger, Passion, Greed, Irresistible Temptation, Arrogance, Blindness, Foul-Mouth, Memories; and thereafter, ultimately causes the surrender of the Great Ego, who now becomes a servant of God. No longer need the Ego tolerate the burdens of life, but now rejoices in the privilege of demonstrating pure love through every action. We believe that the spirit of such translations are in keeping with grammatical authority, and also are in accordance with the oral traditions of the Sanskrit Parampara. The Chandi Path, ISBN 1-877795-00-3, is published by Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Private Limited and Devi Mandir Publications. It is available through bookstores around the world and through book distributions such Book People, New Leaf, Baker and Taylor, etc., or by ordering directly from the Devi Mandir. The book consists of 425 pages with each mantra of the text written in the original Devanagri Sanskrit, a Romanized transliteration, and an English translation and commentary. The book retails for $15.00, and we will make it available at wholesale cost for all members of the Indology list who may have an interest. Special arrangements can be made for teachers who may wish to use the book for class studies. We are privileged to invite you into the bhava of the Devi Mandir Web Site from which we wish to share with you the melodic voice of Shree Maa's bhajans, and previews and abstracts of other works which we have translated, as well as information about the meaning and method of worship according to the various Sanskrit traditions. To visit the Devi Mandir site or to send us a personal email, please click here. http://www.shreemaa.org/ Devi Mandir 5950 Highway 128 Napa, CA 94558 USA Communications : Phone and Fax 1-707-966-2802 E-Mail shreemaa at napanet.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Thu Jun 6 12:00:13 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 08:00:13 -0400 Subject: Robert Levy's _Mesocosm_ Message-ID: <161227024963.23782.7688156475951159056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Introducing Robert Levy's _Mesocosm: Hinduism and the Organization of a Traditional Newar City in Nepal_ (University of California Press, 1990). _Mesocosm_ is a study of civic religion. It considers Hinduism as a system for contributing to communal order in a certain kind of city as exemplified by a city in Nepal's Kathmandu Valley. It examines the way that selections from South Asian ideas about time, space, social order, priest and king, pantheon, festival and "Vedic" and "Tantric" Hinduism are used to generate an integrative urban system of sacralized conception and action which has a dialectical relationship to other kinds of urban patterns and forces. (P.S. A special issue of the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, planned for December 1997, will assess this book. The contributors to this special issue are: Paul Cartledge, David Gellner, Michael Jameson, Todd Lewis, Steven Parish, Declan Quigley, Gerard Toffin, and Michael Witzel). From girish at mushika.wanet.com Thu Jun 6 15:23:13 1996 From: girish at mushika.wanet.com (girish at mushika.wanet.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 08:23:13 -0700 Subject: Wikner font responses Message-ID: <161227024965.23782.411926660103522046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to everyone that sent responses to Mr. Wikner's font questions. I have forwarded the responses to Mr. Wikner. ----------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA girish at mushika.wanet.com From zysk at is2.NYU.EDU Thu Jun 6 12:48:15 1996 From: zysk at is2.NYU.EDU (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 08:48:15 -0400 Subject: Help with time Message-ID: <161227024962.23782.10090242498042257962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking at a Sanskrit text which mentions two technical expressions for time (kaala) whose meanings are unclear: mahendra and vaaru.na. I have a hunch that they may be muhuurta-s, but cannot varify it. I should appreciate any help on this, with citations and/or references. Thanks a bunch, Ken Zysk From bmanring at cuix.pscu.com Thu Jun 6 17:09:24 1996 From: bmanring at cuix.pscu.com (bmanring at cuix.pscu.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 09:09:24 -0800 Subject: Help with time Message-ID: <161227024970.23782.9889830882543398124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vaarun.ii, at least in Bengali Vaisnavism, is the 13th day of the dark fortnight of themonth of Caitra; maybe this will point you towards something. Rebecca Manring From athr at loc.gov Thu Jun 6 15:21:09 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 11:21:09 -0400 Subject: Good book on naked-eye astronomy Message-ID: <161227024967.23782.18330274812766495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A couple of months ago there were several postings on books useful in understanding traditional Hindu astronomy. A very useful book describing the basic phenomena of the heavens such as the sun moving "north" and "south" with the seasons, the movements of the planets against the fixed stars, etc. is: Norman Davidson Astronomy and the imagination : a new approach to man's experience of the stars London and New York : Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1985 I have found understanding books on even the most basic mathematical aspects of pre-Galilean astronomy East and West difficult because they usually are inadequate in describing what one _sees_. This book was written specifically to deal with that problem. The author explains that he is inspired by the scientific ideas of Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Anthroposophy and editor of Goethe's scientific works. Steiner took from Goethe the idea that science after Newton was getting unhealthily remote from direct sensuous experience of the physical world. Allen Thrasher athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 7 01:22:53 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 18:22:53 -0700 Subject: Help with time Message-ID: <161227024974.23782.11520626129318991546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Kenneth G. Zysk wrote: > > I am looking at a Sanskrit text which mentions two technical expressions > for time (kaala) whose meanings are unclear: mahendra and vaaru.na. I > have a hunch that they may be muhuurta-s, but cannot varify it. I should > appreciate any help on this, with citations and/or references. > > Thanks a bunch, > Ken Zysk > > In the MaitrAyaNIya UpaniSad (6.14), the two halves of the year are said to be Agneya (related to Agni), and vAruNa (related to VaruNa). The Agneya half is the uttarAyaNa (from winter to summer solstice), and the vAruNa half is the dakSiNAyana (from summer to winter solstice). The vAruNa half surely gets its name from the fact that it brings the rains. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of california, Berkeley From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri Jun 7 10:23:57 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 06:23:57 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024976.23782.5650980039841701028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the recent posting by Cezary Galewicz, I checked Thieme's review [in JAOS 77, 1957] of Renou's EVP I. It might be useful to quote Thieme [p.54, fn.2]: "I might formulate 'Rigvedic art may be described as a sort of artistic magic, or magical art,' adapting, for my own purposes, Edgerton's characterisation of Vedic philosophy...." Elsewhere, of course, Thieme frequently resorts to the term "magic, Magie", as do many other Vedicists [prominently L?ders in his landmark book "VaruNa"; I might also note Witzel's article of 1979, which I cited in my review, among others]. I did not mean to suggest that interest in "magical gramnmar" is entirely new with Elizarenkova. Clearly, there has been awareness of its key role in the "Vedic world-view" from the beginnigs of Vedic studies. What I would suggest is that with her a *close and rigorous* examination of the problem is resumed, and new insights have been the result. As for Frederick Smith's observation about "indigenous categories," I entirely agree. In my own work on Vedic speech-acts, I have made a point of starting from precisely such things. Note that the brahmodya, the satyakriyA, the ahaMkAra, the Atmastuti, are all "indigenous categories" which I have applied to significant features of the language of the Rgveda [even when the terms themselves are not Vedic, or are not early Vedic]. We surely do need to be attentive to these "indigenous categories." Srinivasan Pichumani has expressed interest in Staal's position on mantras. Here we have another can of worms, since Staal, utterly indifferent to "indigenous categories", has proposed that mantras are in fact meaningless, based largely on his very Western conception of meaning and language [fundamentally influenced by Chomsky]. But his is a position that is not easy to dismiss, in spite of its "deconstructionist" spirit, because it is so well-informed about the processes of language, and because to a signficant degree his theoretical work is rooted in his fieldwork: there is an interesting relationship between his view of mantras and his work on the agnicayana. Sincerely, George Thompson From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Fri Jun 7 15:15:00 1996 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (Vasudha Narayanan) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 11:15:00 -0400 Subject: forehead marks Message-ID: <161227024977.23782.18274734279798644761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in knowing about the origins and meanings of, textual references, and iconographic attestations to forehead marks in India. I am familiar with the interpretations of some Sri Vaishnava and Saiva marks of south India. I have also heard of the "bindu" representing the Devi. I would like to know more about their religious/sociological/cosmetic meanings. I have seen names like tilaka, bindu/bindi, nAma, srichurNam, vibhuti, tirunIr, to refer to the shape and the materials used. Is there any secondary literature? Depending on custom and usage, some women do not wear such marks after the death of their husbands. Sri Vaisnava women may and do infact wear the nAma throughout their lives -- they wear it as children, on the day of their wedding, and through widowhood because the primary significance is devotional and not cosmetic. How did this function historically? Where there major gender differences in usage? With many thanks, Vasudha Narayanan Professor, Department of Religion University of Florida From c.j.oort at pi.net Fri Jun 7 15:24:29 1996 From: c.j.oort at pi.net (c.j.oort at pi.net) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 17:24:29 +0200 Subject: Chemparathy article Message-ID: <161227024980.23782.10418540546486370953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am trying to locate an article by George Chemparathy which compares >Udayana and Thomas Aquinas. Might anyone know the title and location of this >article? > >Thanks, > >Max Nihom > >E-Mail: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at Dear Max I am at home now but I,ll look it up at Kern next Tuesday. I remember the article as well. Greetings, Marianne C.J. Oort tel: 31-(0)70-5116960 fax: 31-(0)70-5140832 From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Mon Jun 10 14:37:56 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 15:37:56 +0100 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024981.23782.16321411981829194032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reacting briefly to F. Smith's earlier remark (1st of June) >>Alas, the >>same can be said for the way terms like indrajaala and yaatu were used >>in Skt texts and their counterparts in modern languages, e.g. jaaduu in >>Hindi, etc. So, it turns out that these may actually be "indigenous >>categories" that cannot be so easily abandoned by exorcising our own >>orientalism and essentialism. and to G. Thompson's recent reference to this (+ ref. to use of term "magic" by Thieme): According to one "indigenous" perception the sun will not rise if a Rsi does not perform his SAndhya (this was, when I am not mistaken, the claim of JaratkAru (m), note the context: when he wanted to get rid of his wife JaratkAru (f), see MahAbhArata). Another "indigenous" perception is as follows: vyAghrAdivyapadezena yathA bAlo nivartyate | asatyo 'pi tathA kaz cit pratyavAyo 'bhidhIyate || "Just as a child is kept away from something by telling it stories about tigers etc., like that [sacred texts] speak of some bad consequence even though it is not real" (Bhartrhari, VAkyapadIya 2.321). Which "indigenous" perception, and which presupposed categories should we take as our standard for scholarly interpretations of Vedic and Hindu ritual? The cited statement of the grammarian-philosopher Bhartrhari is of course not as sceptical as it may look at first sight. It is in full agreement with the classical MImAMsaka-attitude according to which ArthavAdas merely reinforce the Vidhi, without strong independent truth-claim. Recently, Elizarenkova's book Language and Style of the Vedic Rsis became available to me. I found the following definition of "magic-mentality, almost inseparable from religion at a certain stage of society's development" (p. 13): "The difference between them [i.e. magic-mentality and religion] could be briefly outlined as follows: while the religious outlook can be characterized by obedience to Divine Will, the magic mentality replaces the deity with abstract entities which can be manipulated with the help of magical techniques. The fundamental principle of any magic is total determinism without causal connections. The world structure is represented as a system of equivalences: everything can be caused by anything." Elizarenkova refers here to Stanislav Schayer's study Die Weltanschauung der BrAhmaNa-texte and to her own study of the Atharva Veda. Are Elizarenkova's catogories and her evolotionary presuppositions a good basis for the discussion of Vedic ritualism? Perhaps they are, I am just beginning with her book. But perhaps they are the "indigenous categories" of the Judaio- Christian tradition (partly parallel to other "indigenous categories)? In any case, the view sketched by her is precisely the one extensively criticized by Tambiah c.s. Jan E.M. Houben Research fellow International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Mon Jun 10 15:37:07 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 16:37:07 +0100 Subject: Grassmann booknotice (new edition) Message-ID: <161227024983.23782.13941137020376300689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hermann Grassmann, Woerterbuch zum Rig-Veda, 6., ueberarbeitete und ergaenzte Auflage von Maria Kozianka. Wiesbaden: Harassowitz Verlag, 1996. 298 DM (excl. VAT). In a recent posting on the Indology list entitled "magic / directions in Indology" (May 29), M. Witzel mentioned Grassmann's W?rterbuch zum Rig-Veda as an example of thorough work of enduring value ("the simple fact of the matter is that thorough work like the great mathematician Grassmann's Rgveda Dictionary endure and are constantly used"). It will perhaps be of interest to the readers of this list that recently a new edition appeared of this important work of reference. Unlike 4 previous re-editions (1936, 1955, 1964 and 1976) which were identical with the first edition of 1873, the present one is "reworked and completed". For those who plan to make a serious study of the Rgveda but do not yet have access to an earlier edition of Grassmann's dictionary, the present re-edition will be a valuable, though quite costly tool. For those who already have access to an earlier edition the important question arises: what are the improvements of the new edition, and do they justify the expenses of a new copy? The most important improvement effected by the editor M. Kozianka is that Grassmann's own "Nachtraege und Verbesserungen" are added at the respective places in the dictionary. Because the printing in the original edition was rather cramped, it was necessery to print only one column instead of two on each page. In the broad margins we find the additions and corrections by Grassmann inserted at their appropriate place, or other notes by the editor. There is still a lot of white space left (which may be used to insert one's own notes). The number of pages is twice that of a copy of the 1976 edition, but the lighter quality of the paper makes the book only half a centimeter thicker than the 5 cm thick earlier copy. What do the "other notes by the editor" consist of? In the first place, words and forms mentioned by Walter Neisser in his Zum Woerterbuch des Rgveda, Leipzig 1924-1930 (covering a-auzAna,and Die mit Guttural anautenden Woerter) but not by Grassmann have been added in the margins. For the 168 pages devoted to words starting with short a this means that on p. 52: a'-namasyu (a'n- amasyu, corrected in editor's corrigenda) "nicht sich beugend" has been added; on p. 82: extra places for the use of abhi'; on p. 124: ref. to problem ra'veNa, padap. a'vena RV 128.5; on p. 126: different interpretation of the form avayAs RV 173.12. There are several ref. to Geldner's "Handexemplar", e.g. concerning the combination adhA hi, on p. 43; extra places anu on p. 59, anupUrva'm p. 60, anta'r p. 64, a'pas p. 74, a'ram p. 103, ati abhi arc p. 111, azyAma p. 135; There is one ref. to the Handexemplar Hoffmann's, one to Forssman's. Occasionally extra cross-references have been added by the editor, and a few writing/printing/spelling errors have been corrected, e.g. k??t?s instead of x?t?s (p. 9), trip???h? instead of t?p???h? (p. 46). Provisional conclusion: Whatever has been done by the editor is valuable. The dictionary is now certainly more "user friendly" (though its increased size makes it a bit unwieldy). For those having access to an older edition + Neisser's Zum Woerterbuch, and willing to use Grassmann's own Nachtraege, however, it is probably hardly worthwhile to acquire the new edition. It is, in fact, regrettable that the editor did not go a bit further to make the new edition a real step forward instead of a step on the place. In addition to the one-page Vorwort zum verbessertem Nachdruck, a brief essay on the sources of Grassmann, the numerous reviews of the first edition (by scholars like Auguste Barth, Haug, Delbrueck, Benfey and others), and his later reception would not have been out of place. As for this later reception, I would like to cite Neisser, 1924, Vorwort: " . . . das Werk Grassmanns . . . das dank der Vollstaendigkeit der von ihm dargebotenen Verzeichnisse von Wortformen und Belegen ein unentbehrliches Ruestzeug der Forschung bis auf den heutigen Tag geblieben ist, wenn schon es interpretatorisch von Haus aus nicht allen Forderungen zu entsprechen vermochte", and Gonda, Vision of the Vedic Poets (1963), p. 7: "It is indeed somewhat strange that scholars should have acquiesced for nearly a century in the translational and interpretative methods of Rudolph Roth and Hermann Grassmann." It is to be hoped that the lack of critical warnings by the editor will not make Grassmann's interpretations more definitive than they were ever intended by the author who himself admitted in his Vorwort that it is here "die subjective Auffassung" which plays an important role. Jan E.M. Houben Research fellow International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From thompson at handel.jlc.net Mon Jun 10 21:29:39 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 17:29:39 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227024985.23782.13272608881334448530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to J. Houben's recent observations, I will attempt to discuss here only those related to Elizarenkova: >Recently, Elizarenkova's book Language and Style of the Vedic Rsis became >available to me. I found the following definition of "magic-mentality, almost >inseparable from religion at a certain stage of society's development" (p. >13): >"The difference between them [i.e. magic-mentality and religion] could be >briefly outlined as follows: while the religious outlook can be characterized >by obedience to Divine Will, the magic mentality replaces the deity with >abstract entities which can be manipulated with the help of magical >techniques. >The fundamental principle of any magic is total determinism without causal >connections. The world structure is represented as a system of equivalences: >everything can be caused by anything." >Elizarenkova refers here to Stanislav Schayer's study Die Weltanschauung der >BrAhmaNa-texte and to her own study of the Atharva Veda. > >Are Elizarenkova's catogories and her evolotionary presuppositions a good >basis >for the discussion of Vedic ritualism? Perhaps they are, I am just beginning >with her book. But perhaps they are the "indigenous categories" of the Judaio- >Christian tradition (partly parallel to other "indigenous categories)? In any >case, the view sketched by her is precisely the one extensively criticized by >Tambiah c.s. > I also have cringed at this passage [among others] cited from Elizarenkova, which seems to be very much out of date, with its evolutionary presuppositions, etc. But I believe that Elizarenkova can be forgiven for such lapses into out-of-date theory, because her work is *not* based on such pronouncements. It is based rather on extensive analysis of the language of the RV, as well as on the history of discussion of the subject among Vedicists [key among them Oldenberg, L?ders, Gonda, Thieme, Witzel, et al]. Let us look at her remarks in the larger context of her entire book, and in juxtaposition to the following remarks of Tambiah, which conclude his discussion of magic in the work cited [p. 83]: "My own feeling is that one of the most fruitful interpretive developments in recent anthropology, a development that has still to be completed and exhausted, is that kind of exegesis begun by Malinowski, and taken further by recourse to Wittgensteinian and Austinian linguistic philosophy, Peircean pragmatics and Burke's theory of rhetoric. The now puzzling duality of magic [i.e., on the one hand as an imitation of technological action, on the other hand as rhetorical and performative utterance] will disappear only when we succeed in embedding magic in a more ample theory of human life in which the the path of ritual action is seen as an indispensable mode for man anywhere and everywhere of relating to and participating in the life of the world." Whether or not this offers us a better basis for the discussion of Vedic ritualism, let us consider a few remarks by Elizarenkova in light of it: "Along with *grammmar proper*, which belongs to the system of language, the Rgveda employs an *expressive grammar*, or a grammar of poetry [as Jakobson put it]. The aims of the speech-act do determine a great deal in the syntax of forms, in the semantics of grammatical categories and grammemes, and in the frequency of their use" [p.288]. When, shortly thereafter, Elizarenkova talks about "magical grammar" [e.g., p.291] she is *not* importing Judaio-Christian categories into the study of the RV. She is referring instead to such things as the play of keywords [e.g., theonyms and other charged names, pronouns, etc.] upon the word-order of the hymns of the RV. She is referring to the syntactic, phonic, and other grammatical and poetic structures that are embedded in these texts. She is referring to the underlying function of such all-too-familiar problems in the RV as ellipsis, epithet strings, the use of tense and mood in the verb, etc. Her conception of grammar embraces such things as expressiveness, ritual and phatic language, poetics and stylistics, and pragmatics -- all of these, as well as magic. In fact, if there is a Vedicist who has better used the theories cited by Tambiah in the passage quoted above, I do not know who that is. As a member of the Moscow-Tartu school of semiotics, she is certainly conversant with "Peircean pragmatics" [cf. Peirce cited on p. 3 of her book], and her book amply illustrates her familiarity with the speech-act theory which is typically attributed to Austin, but which in fact was independently and perhaps more clearly discussed by Benveniste. Elizarenkova also has the added virtue of having made skillful use of the enormous contributions made by the Prague linguistic circle [especially Jakobson, with whom, by the way, Tambiah is also quite familiar]. It is true that she does not cite Burke, but if we are going challenge her conception of magic, then we may have to challenge Tambiah's too, since he clearly recommends Burke's "theory of rhetoric," which characterizes magic, as I have already pointed out, as "primitive rhetoric" [a phrase that makes me cringe even more than Elizarenkova's]. As for Wittgenstein an Malinowski, I can't fault her for not citing them. One last, brief point, regarding anthropological theory in particular: Elizarenkova makes an interesting attempt to relate the more recent and still influential theories of Victor Turner with Kuiper's theory of a Vedic New Year festival, with its reflections on cyclical time and ritual re-enactments. In short, I would with confidence affirm that Elizarenkova's book as a whole provides a very good basis indeed for the study of Vedic ritualism and poetics. Sincerely, George Thompson From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Jun 11 19:14:46 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 12:14:46 -0700 Subject: forehead marks Message-ID: <161227024990.23782.12550361768903982176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With reference to Vasudha Narayanan's query on tilaka, bindi etc.: I am afraid I don't have any special insights on this, but wonder if any of the following would be useful: Govind S. Gai had a very short contribution "A Note on Tilaka and Kankana" in N. G. Kalelkar, ed., _Sushil Kumar De Felicitation Volume_ (Poona, 1960) pp. 301-302. Kamal Giri, _Bharatiya srngara_ (Dilli : Motilala Banarasidasa, 1987) vi, 327 p., [52] p. of plates HINDI Summary: Costume, cosmetics, hair styles, and ornaments in ancient India, from the earliest times to 7th century. LCCN: 87903959 /SA/r88. Moti Chandra, _Costumes, textiles, cosmetics & coiffure in ancient and mediaeval India [by] Moti Chandra. [General editor: S. P Gupta; assistant editors: K. N. Dikshit, V. P. Dwivedi, and Shashi Asthana.] (Delhi, Oriental Publishers on behalf of the Indian Archaeological Society, 1973.) xxxii, 248, vi p. illus., 14 plates Notes: "A Dr. Moti Chandra felicitation volume.". LCCN: 73905179 /SA. Priyabala Shah, _Tilaka: Hindu marks on the forehead_ (Ahmedabad: New Order Book Co., [1985?]. 91 p. Frank Conlon University of Washington Co-editor of H-ASIA conlon at u.washington.edu From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Tue Jun 11 13:12:52 1996 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 13:12:52 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Querry re. Saibaba's views Message-ID: <161227024987.23782.7956592558255106888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded message: From: Self To: Members of the list Subject: Querry re. Saibaba's views Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:41:31 An interesting question someone has asked me for which I have no answer is whether the Satya Saibaba condones or opposes military service and on what grounds. I need the answer fairly quickly. Can someone please help me! Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Jun 11 12:45:11 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 13:45:11 +0100 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227024989.23782.5899282747632976857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, as of the 1st of June I am no longer a research fellow at the University of Oslo, but a "private citizen". Next week I will be moving out of this office to my home office in my own flat. Before signing off this list at the present email address and joining the list once more from another address, I would like to thank everybody on the net who has contributed with bibliographic information and various kinds of advice and practical help. The Indology net has been tremendously helpful and has played an important role in my research work. I am deeply grateful to everybody who has made my life easier. Those of you who would want to reach me can do so on the following email address: L.M.Fosse at internet.no Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Wed Jun 12 14:01:53 1996 From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 10:01:53 -0400 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227024996.23782.2490582964467492515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > > How to answer the usual questions asked of Indians? > To help the new wave of incoming students from India, > here are the proper answers to awkward questions asked > everyday: > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > target.... > I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. >?From PMEHTA at hdc.harvard.edu 12 96 Jun EDT 11:45:22 Date: 12 Jun 96 11:45:22 EDT Subject: political thought From: PMEHTA at hdc.harvard.edu (Mehta, Pratap Bhanu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Could someone provide refernces on the following topics? Is there any work on Indian conceptions of "sovereginty" in the eigteenth century (something like Ronald Inden's work on the rashtrakutas)? What would be some of the original sources one can consult on this matter? When does one find the earliest Indian political critiques of the British Empire. What are the significant ones before 1850's? What are good sources on the historical transformation of two concepts: praja (Gandhi uses it frequently in the Gujarati edition of Hind Swaraj) and janapada. many thanks pratap mehta department of government harvard university pmehta at hdc.harvard.edu From aditya at icanect.net Wed Jun 12 12:00:47 1996 From: aditya at icanect.net (aditya at icanect.net) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 12:00:47 +0000 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227024995.23782.12112106250902133587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frank Conlon has on Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:25:41 BST written as follows: >With reference to Vasudha Narayanan's query on tilaka, bindi etc.: > >I am afraid I don't have any special insights on this, but wonder >if any of the following would be useful: I want to share this humor with you. How to answer the usual questions asked of Indians? To help the new wave of incoming students from India, here are the proper answers to awkward questions asked everyday: Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the target.... From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Wed Jun 12 12:43:45 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 13:43:45 +0100 Subject: magic and speechacts Message-ID: <161227024993.23782.18299436615088497846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to congratulate Dr. Thompson with his -- as far as I am concerned quite convincing -- defense of the qualities of Elizarenkova's recent book Language and Style of the Vedic Rsis (Thompson posting d.d. 10.06.96). Meanwhile it remains fascinating to see how what are clearly magical phenomena according to one perception (whether or not scholars consider it outdated) are clearly something else in a "speech-act" or "performative" approach. In my last posting Re: overemphasis on magic, I suggested that also a MImAMsA-inspired approach may have the effect that "magical" phenomena become "not so magical". It is to be noted, however, that in MImAMsA "irrationality" shifts to other notions in the system, e.g. apUrva, etc. In connection with the language philosophy of MImAMsA and "speechact-theory" I would like to draw the attention to a valuable publication, Lars Goehler's recent book Wort und Text bei KumArila BhaTTa (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 1995, ISBN 3-631-48821-1). The author combines a careful philological study of the sources with a sound alertness for modern (at least 20th century) theories in the philosophy of language, esp. speechact-theories. The problem of "comparability" is more explicitly addressed in the article "Gab es im alten Indien eine Sprechakttheorie?" by the same author (Beitraege zur Geschichte der Sprachwissenschaft, 1995, p. 65ff). Although the author (rightly) concludes that ancient India did not have a Speechact-theory in the strict sense of the word, he also demonstrates that most of the presuppositions of modern Speechact- theories are not as original as they have been claimed to be, and further that this specific comparison is clarifying in both ways, for ancient MImAMsA and for modern theory. Another relevant publication concerning Vedic language and speechacts is M.M. Deshpande's article "Changing conceptions of the Veda: From Speechacts to Magical sounds" (ALB 54, 1990:1-41). Keywords in Deshpande's argument: reification of speechacts; deification of speech; Vedas impersonalized and decontextualized; "differences of authorship are gradually replaced by a more theological conception of a single authorless Veda"; "reinterpreting the Vedas to fit changed circumstances". Deshpande's own note of caution that his argument "does not give us chronological history" is important, because his earliest stages, from "living speech-acts" to "personification and deification of speech", seem to have been overlapping for a considerable time. They are all amply reflected in our earliest available source, the Rgveda. Jan E.M. Houben Research fellow International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed Jun 12 21:35:52 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025001.23782.15334225885490150983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is shocking that he finds humor in it. Shame! _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > > > > > How to answer the usual questions asked of Indians? > > To help the new wave of incoming students from India, > > here are the proper answers to awkward questions asked > > everyday: > > > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > > target.... > > > I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. > > > > From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 13 00:48:24 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 20:48:24 -0400 Subject: political thought Message-ID: <161227025004.23782.1398090397506500338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One early, perhaps not the earliest, response comes from neighboring Nepal -- always conscious of te fact that it is a "pumkin between two stones, the Company (now India) and China" (King Prthvi Narayan Shah) This is the (unpublished?) Gorandaakhyo Malimlucah "The Bandits called Goranda" (British) probably written in 1821 after the Anglo-Nepali war of 1814-16. This Nepali text criticizes the merchant people (Goranda, cf. Murunda) from overseas for their treachery and the danger they pose to Hindu states such as Nepal which Prthi Narayan called the "true Hindu country/ Hindust(h)an (yo asil hindusthaan ho). (Note also the 19th c. Nepali diplomatic correspondece, in Sanskrit, with the states of Rajasthan). The estimation of the (19th c. enlarged) Bhavisya Purana is not very different: the merchant people from overseas, reigned by the queen Vaktavati. (janapada is as old as the late Vedic texts, and prajaa is found in Dharma texts (Manu, also Kautilya) and medieval texts dealing with the king and his subjects; exact passage can be excerpted easily). Michael Witzel Sanskrit Department Harvard University witzel at husc3.harvard.edu On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 PMEHTA at hdc.harvard.edu wrote: > > Could someone provide refernces on the following topics? > > Is there any work on Indian conceptions of "sovereginty" in the > eigteenth century (something like Ronald Inden's work on the > rashtrakutas)? What would be some of the original sources one > can consult on this matter? > > When does one find the earliest Indian political critiques of > the British Empire. What are the significant ones before > 1850's? > > What are good sources on the historical transformation of two > concepts: praja (Gandhi uses it frequently in the Gujarati > edition of Hind Swaraj) and janapada. > > many thanks > > pratap mehta > department of government > harvard university > pmehta at hdc.harvard.edu > > From L.M.Fosse at internet.no Wed Jun 12 10:55:02 1996 From: L.M.Fosse at internet.no (L.M.Fosse at internet.no) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 20:55:02 +1000 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227024999.23782.11744138046654026711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? >> A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery >> skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. >> In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. >> You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the >> target.... >> >I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. May I suggest that most humour is disrespectful? And that humour disrespectful to men is not more or less disrespectful than humour disrespectful to women? Give the girst a chance to answer back! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, N-0674 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no From shreemaa at napanet.net Wed Jun 12 22:33:54 1996 From: shreemaa at napanet.net (Swami Satyananda) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:33:54 +0000 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025007.23782.2994249752210568671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Samasthi Upanshana of the Chandi Path, we worship the Divine Mother by putting sindur on her her forehead with this mantra: We believe that it means that Divine Love, which has no selfish interest, drives the Chariot of the Light of Wisdom, and that Love is applied upon the third eye, the Ajnya Chakra, so that all perception will be through the eyes of Wisdom and Love. Only a Divine Mother can look upon Her creation through the eyes of Wisdom and Love, and every woman is an incarnation of the Divine Mother. -- Please take our love and blessings. Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda Devi Mandir 5950 Highway 128 Napa, CA 94558 USA Communications : Phone and Fax 1-707-966-2802 E-Mail shreemaa at napanet.net Please visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.shreemaa.org/  -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/applefile Size: 7577 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aditya at icanect.net Thu Jun 13 00:46:12 1996 From: aditya at icanect.net (aditya at icanect.net) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 00:46:12 +0000 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025002.23782.10698281670337379926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra has on Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:30:35 BST written as follows: >I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. What can I say. I would find you humor impaired if you cannot understand the joke. Have a prosperous and peaceful day. --------------- Aditya Mishra http://www.icanect.net/~aditya Alternate email address: a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ************************************************************ The opinions expressed herein are continually mutating and * might have already been changed by the time you read them * owing to the more recent information that became available.* ************************************************************ From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Jun 13 10:46:26 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 05:46:26 -0500 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025011.23782.17376839123306007933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Frank Conlon has on Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:25:41 >BST written as follows: > >>With reference to Vasudha Narayanan's query on tilaka, bindi etc.: >> >>I am afraid I don't have any special insights on this, but wonder >>if any of the following would be useful: >I want to share this humor with you. > > How to answer the usual questions asked of Indians? > To help the new wave of incoming students from India, > here are the proper answers to awkward questions asked > everyday: > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > target.... I'd heard (from a hispanic) that it meant, "You are here." From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu Jun 13 11:48:52 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 07:48:52 -0400 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025014.23782.10047371286194603635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Children often say interesting and revealing things. In Berkeley, I once overheard a toddler [two or three years old?], ask with great concern whether a woman with a tilaka on her forehead were bleeding. I take this to be a good example of folk semantics. Also, my response to the joke was similar to Julia Leslie's, except that I assumed that the humor was "disrespectful" to Western "fieldworkers" in particular, with their nagging questions about "obvious" things.... From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Jun 13 15:11:17 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 10:11:17 -0500 Subject: Good book store? Message-ID: <161227025018.23782.761441446826023018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For various electronic citation purposes, I need to know what the best clearing-house nation/worldwide is for purchasing resources on Vedic Studies. Specifically, where can one easily get Barend Van Nooten and Gary Holland's "Rig Veda: A Metrically Restored Text" (Havard University Press, #50). Preferably, the whole/re-saler should have at least a 1-800 phone line if in the US, and ideally, an E-mail address. In essence, I want a convenient place to which I can refer people from a website for aquiring his RV and its included electronic edition on disk. Thank you in advance, and you may reply directly to me at: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From francois at sas.ac.uk Thu Jun 13 09:41:50 1996 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 10:41:50 +0100 Subject: Call for papers, travel conference (fwd) Message-ID: <161227025009.23782.4678817375630715766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OXFORD BROOKES UNIVERSITY: HUMANITIES RESEARCH CENTRE CALL FOR PAPERS FOR A ONE-DAY CONFERENCE ON: PATHOLOGIES OF TRAVEL SATURDAY 26th OCTOBER 1996 Travel has been represented as a blessing and a curse, as improving and wasteful: if the speed and ease of modern travel bring undreamt of opportunites for many, at the same time, the burgeoning transport infrastructure brings forth the worst excesses of environmental degradation and exploitation. Travel both demonstrates the health and stength of western technological and social organisation, and symbolises its deepest malaises. To view travel as evidence of a pathology is not, however, novel. Travel has long been associated with personal and social ailments and their remedies. The act of pilgrimage has carried the curative power of personal and national salvation across cultures and time. Exploration has sought scientific, medical and economic remedies for the social and technological ills of the western world. Travel has been a metaphor for regeneration that is at once personal, psychological and aesthetic. This conference provides an opportunity to bring together social and cultural historians, and historians of science and medicine. Proposals for papers are invited from the disciplines represented in the organisation of the conference: Art History, History, Historical and Cultural Geography, Literary Studies. We would prefer papers to deal with topics within the 17th century to the early 20th century. The following themes are suggested, but others may be addressed: Travel as an illness; Wanderlust and its discontents; Travel for health; Travel as therapy; Trends in medication for travel and prophylaxis whilst abroad; The 'Stendhal syndrome' and cognate phenomena; Exploration / expeditions / investigation of disease abroad; Illnesses related to new technologies of travel. Proposals should take the form of a brief abstract, and should be sent by June 21st 1996 (or as soon as possible thereafter) to: Richard Wrigley tel. 01865 483577 School of Humanities, fax. 01865 484082 Oxford Brookes University, E-mail: rwrigley at brookes.ac.uk Gipsy Lane, Headington Oxford OX3 OBP 0xford Brookes University Humanities Research Centre in collaboration with the Humanities MA Programme. From jl6 at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 13 12:14:42 1996 From: jl6 at soas.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 12:14:42 +0000 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025013.23782.14445712502428797499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? >> A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery >> skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. >> In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. >> You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the >> target.... >> >I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. That's odd. I found it funny precisely because it was so disrespectful of men. Yours in confusion, Julia Leslie SOAS From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Thu Jun 13 11:21:21 1996 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 12:21:21 +0100 Subject: political thought Message-ID: <161227025016.23782.12035323119076042538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Liber Herr Witzel, Hochinteressant Ihre Hinweise! Und zwei Nachfragen dazu: >This is the (unpublished?) Gorandaakhyo Malimlucah "The Bandits called >Goranda" (British) probably written in 1821 after the Anglo-Nepali war of >1814-16. Wo ist das erhaeltlich? >Note also the 19th c. Nepali >diplomatic correspondece, in Sanskrit, with the states of Rajasthan). Ist diese Korrespondenz vom NGMPP verfilmt worden oder wo kann man die einsehen? Herzliche Gruesse, Ihr Axel M. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Thu Jun 13 17:26:05 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 12:26:05 -0500 Subject: political thought Message-ID: <161227025020.23782.2736539328291193603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a trivial note, did not Prithvi Naryaran say 'a yam' between two stones, rather than a 'pumkin' between two stones? May be there is another text that gives a different imagery. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU wrote: > > > One early, perhaps not the earliest, response comes from neighboring Nepal > -- always conscious of te fact that it is a "pumkin between two > stones, the Company (now India) and China" (King Prthvi Narayan Shah) > > This is the (unpublished?) Gorandaakhyo Malimlucah "The Bandits called > Goranda" (British) probably written in 1821 after the Anglo-Nepali war of > 1814-16. > > This Nepali text criticizes the merchant people (Goranda, cf. Murunda) > from overseas for their treachery and the danger they pose to Hindu states > such as Nepal which Prthi Narayan called the "true Hindu country/ > Hindust(h)an (yo asil hindusthaan ho). (Note also the 19th c. Nepali > diplomatic correspondece, in Sanskrit, with the states of Rajasthan). > > The estimation of the (19th c. enlarged) Bhavisya Purana is not very > different: the merchant people from overseas, reigned by the queen > Vaktavati. > > (janapada is as old as the late Vedic texts, and prajaa is found in > Dharma texts (Manu, also Kautilya) and medieval texts dealing with the king > and his subjects; exact passage can be excerpted easily). > > > Michael Witzel > Sanskrit Department > Harvard University > witzel at husc3.harvard.edu > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 PMEHTA at hdc.harvard.edu wrote: > > > > > Could someone provide refernces on the following topics? > > > > Is there any work on Indian conceptions of "sovereginty" in the > > eigteenth century (something like Ronald Inden's work on the > > rashtrakutas)? What would be some of the original sources one > > can consult on this matter? > > > > When does one find the earliest Indian political critiques of > > the British Empire. What are the significant ones before > > 1850's? > > > > What are good sources on the historical transformation of two > > concepts: praja (Gandhi uses it frequently in the Gujarati > > edition of Hind Swaraj) and janapada. > > > > many thanks > > > > pratap mehta > > department of government > > harvard university > > pmehta at hdc.harvard.edu > > > > > > From LGoehler at aol.com Thu Jun 13 17:32:38 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 13:32:38 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025022.23782.17814547331155096851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: >but if we are going challenge her (Elizarenkova's -L.G.) >conception of magic, then we may have to challenge Tambiah's too, since he >clearly recommends Burke's "theory of rhetoric," which characterizes magic, >as I have already pointed out, as "primitive rhetoric" I think that Tambiah's understanding of magic in the terms of speech-act-theory is a very fruitful approach. But if one tries this and if one considers a speech-act as an utterance that presupposes certain social conventions, as Austin did, then the question of the origin of these social conventions naturally arises. Searle did not extend the theory in this direction. Habermas (who is not a member of the Frankfurt School, als Tambiah p.2 assumes) did something in this way, but the best book that I found on this topic and that is not mentioned by Tambiah is: Pierre Bourdieu: Ce que parler veut dire. L' economie des echanges linguistiques. Paris 1982. Bourdieu writes against the Opposition of magic and rationality (my translation - sorry in advance for mistakes): *Who, in the way of Max Weber, opposes magic or charismatic law of a common oath or an ordeal to our law which is predictable and calculateable, forgets that also this throughout rationalized law is nothing more than a happy act (I took this formulation from Austin - L.G.) of social magic.* Tambiah is very careful with critics on views as mentioned by Elizarenkova and I think such views should not too easily discarded because on a phenomenological level they still have some justification. The magicans THOUGHT themselves as using principles that produce results with necessity in a way that has analogies in modern science. An Anthropologist has to have a different view about this as well as a philosopher of science should not share all the illusions of the scientists. As for European theories of magic Tambiah seems to have some 'blind spots' (as we Europeans usually have with regard to American theories) Ernst Cassirer should necessarily be mentioned in a discussion on magic, also perhaps Geo Widengren and some others. As for concepts of rationality I would also have expected e.g. Paul Feyerabend's 'anarchic theory of knowledge'. - This does not change the fact, that Tambiah (as usually) wrote an excellent book which contains interesting steps forward in the theories of magic and rationality. sincerely, Lars Goehler From GAIL at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Thu Jun 13 21:13:11 1996 From: GAIL at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (GAIL at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 15:13:11 -0600 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025024.23782.8614369837635401137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Bijoy Misra wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > > target.... > > > I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. > It certainly is humorous and not at all disrespectful to women. As a *woman* I simply don't see why it can't be taken humorously -- unless irony is something you don't appreciate. Gail From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 13 21:09:14 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 17:09:14 -0400 Subject: Good book store? Message-ID: <161227025026.23782.17113155120515895338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HOS 50, van Nooten/Holland's Rgveda (US $ 50, with diskette of the restored metrical and of the Samhita version), is available, (as printed after p. 667 of the edition), from: Harvard University Press, 79 Garden Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 phone 617- 495 2606 fax 617- 495 5898 by exception, also from the Sanskrit Dept., 53 Church Street, ph. 495 3295, fax 496 8571 M.W> From shreemaa at napanet.net Thu Jun 13 21:04:37 1996 From: shreemaa at napanet.net (Swami Satyananda) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 21:04:37 +0000 Subject: forehead marks Message-ID: <161227025033.23782.8440444540422844441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There were a few requests to see the original Sanskrit of the verses quoted in reference to the red spot which is offered to the Goddess in all Hindu women. -- Please take our love and blessings. Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda Devi Mandir 5950 Highway 128 Napa, CA 94558 USA Communications : Phone and Fax 1-707-966-2802 E-Mail shreemaa at napanet.net Please visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.shreemaa.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: application/applefile Size: 6563 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sindur.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46789 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jun 14 01:19:17 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 21:19:17 -0400 Subject: Good book on naked-eye astronomy Message-ID: <161227025030.23782.18256365660021791218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another good book on the topic is the third chapter in : AUTHOR: Aveni, Anthony F. TITLE: Skywatchers of ancient Mexico / by Anthony F. Aveni ; foreword by Owen Gingerich. PUB. INFO: Austin : University of Texas Press, c1980. DESCRIPTION: x, 355 p. : ill. ; 26 cm. SERIES: The Texas Pan American series M.W> From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri Jun 14 12:53:27 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 08:53:27 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025036.23782.16263291842745937597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Lars Goehler about the value of Tambiah's use of speech act theory to interpret magic: it is surely a fruitful approach. But in the passage quoted Tambiah himself acknowledges that the approach "has still to be completed and exhausted." I myself am very interested in speech act theory, particularly when we are dealing *specifically* with speech acts. Often the theory is used rather vaguely to deal with such "theoretical" constructs as "ritual" or "magic" or "mantras" [as J. Houben has already suggested; I must add that I am somewhat sympathetic with Staal's critique of the use of speech act theory in this way]. As a Vedicist, and as a member of this list, I feel obliged to stay Indological. Bourdieu will surely be useful to us as we come to terms with cultural studies in general [which we should]. The few passages that I have come across where he discusses magic [e.g., "the quasi-magical potency of the signature," "symbolic energy," "social alchemy," etc. are all *very* suggestive]. I am very grateful to Goehler for the reference to "Ce que parler veut dire", which I have not yet seen [but will]. But perhaps I can turn attention to just one Vedic speech act, in order to see how the theory of speech acts might be of direct use to Vedicists. Take a term like satyakriyA, actually unattested in Skt [cf. Pali saccakiriyA]. It refers to a speech act that is embedded in "a field of cultural practice" in Vedic that, I think, requires the discussion of magic [pace Brown's (in my opinion) anachronistic ethical view]. The practice presupposes a belief that by the very utterance of a given truth [typically involving self-assertion] the agent can accomplish very remarkable things, like the reversal of the flow of the Ganges, the revival of a dying son, or, in a Vedic context, the establishment of personal authority [charisma] by a would-be Brahmin [kav?, R'Si, etc.]. Here, Bourdieu's use of such concepts as competition and production, symbolic power, etc., would seem to be highly relevant. As I have argued in a forthcoming paper, the satyakriyA is clearly a performative utterance, and in the strictest sense of the term: by the mere utterance of certain words ["truth"] the agent accomplishes something. But this observation is rather trivial by itself. The form -kriyA already tells us that this utterance is an act, i.e., a speech act [I have also talked about the verb kR-, which frequently has the sense "perform a (speech) act, i.e., to utter"]. The more important question, to my knowledge never discussed by an Indologist, is: *what kind* of performative is the satyakriyA? Well, I have considered this from a number of points of view, and in the end I have resorted to Searle's taxonomy of the speech act [illocutionary force, etc.]. I have tried to distinguish the satyakriyA from such closely related speech acts as the confession, the vow, the promise, the curse, the boast, etc., all of which exhibit features that Austin & Searle would consider "performative." But, again, this observation by itself is not very informative [in the end *everything* is performative for Austin!]. In a nutshell [i.e., in one screen], I have resorted to the term "magical performative" which I have developed in light of Searle's *very* brief & undeveloped discussion of "supernatural declarations" [see Searle's "Expression & Meaning: Studies in the Theory of Speech Acts", 1979: p.18]. His sole example of such a declaration is the "Fiat Lux" of Genesis, whereby that most authoritative figure ["voice"] in the Judaio-Christion world-order accomplishes a very great thing indeed by the mere assertion of a few words. In my view, it is very illuminating to consider the satyakriyA in this context, and that is what I have attempted do to in my article. I firmly believe [very performative! "verdictive"? "assertive"?] that the application of speech act theory in general [not just the Austin-Searle variety] can be very helpful to Indologists, as we try to come to terms with our texts. Sincerely, George Thompson From athr at loc.gov Fri Jun 14 13:20:56 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:20:56 -0400 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025038.23782.4617080433552183136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone sometime wrote and responded: > > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > > > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > > > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > > > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > > > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > > > target.... > > > > > I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. > > When I was a boy in Norfolk Virginia we all knew the story of William Tell and used to play at reenacting his famous feat, sometimes seriously and sometimes humorously, miming unfortunate ends for Tell Jr. Was this disrespectful to boys, or to men, crossbowpersons, or Swiss? From rdsaran at umich.edu Fri Jun 14 13:50:25 1996 From: rdsaran at umich.edu (Richard D. Saran) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:50:25 -0400 Subject: forehead marks (humor) Message-ID: <161227025040.23782.9205330151997607035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whatever humor might have been in this message Wednesday certainly has been ground out of it by now. Let's get back to fonts, syntax ... anything else. On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 GAIL at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 aditya at icanect.net wrote: > > > > > Q. What does that red dot on women's forehead mean? > > > A. Well, in ancient times, Indian men used to practice archery > > > skills by target practicing by aiming at their wife's red dot. > > > In fact, that is one of the reasons why they had many wives. > > > You see, once they mastered the art of archery and hit the > > > target.... > > > > > I don't find any humor in above. It's disrespectful to women.. > > > It certainly is humorous and not at all disrespectful to women. As a > *woman* I simply don't see why it can't be taken humorously -- unless > irony is something you don't appreciate. > > Gail > > From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Fri Jun 14 00:14:09 1996 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 10:14:09 +1000 Subject: Gymnosophists: once and for all (fwd) Message-ID: <161227025027.23782.7507619381227907636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:10:03 +1000 From: Purushottama Bilimoria To: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Subject: Gymnosophists: once and for all > >To:indology at liverpool.ac.uk >From:p.bilimoria at philosophy.unimelb.edu.au (Purushottama Bilimoria) >Subject:Gymnosophists: once and for all > > >There has been rather elementary level discussion on the gymnosophists on >the list. Most students of ancient Greek philosophy and Latin know quite a >bit about this and it is curious to see indologists (once again) trying to >re-turn an old wheel. At least one indologist I know of has written two or >three good articles on the gymnosophists, and his utter silence in the >exchanges we seen on the list puzzles me. Perhaps Paul Le Valley does not >susbcribe to the list. Anyway, here is a reference to one of his articles: >"What did the gymnosophists believe?" >in Yavanika, Journal of the Indian Society for Greek and Roman Studies, No >2 , 1992, pp 61-84. > >If anyone is in touch with Paul Le Valley I would like to know his current >address and e-mail. > >Purushottama From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Fri Jun 14 17:29:41 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 13:29:41 -0400 Subject: Call for Papers Message-ID: <161227025045.23782.1571764508474727957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Announcement and Call for Papers Special Issue: "Popular Hinduism and Society in India" The _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ is planning a special issue for September 1998 on Popular Hinduism and Society in India. We welcome submissions of an interdisciplinary nature. Comparative and theoretical articles are especially encouraged. Manuscripts should be no longer than 30-35 pages, including endnotes and references. They should be prepared according to the _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ style sheet (which will be sent on request). Authors should send _four_ copies of their manuscript to the Editorial Secretary, _International Journal of Hindu Studies_, International Institute of India Studies, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Manuscripts must arrive no later than September 1997, in order to be considered for the special issue. Manuscripts will be evaluated through the usual _International Journal of Hindu Studies_ peer reviews. Questions regarding the special issue should be addressed to Sushil Mittal (International Institute of India Studies, 1270 St-Jean, St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada J2S 8M2. Tel 514 771 0213 Fax 514 771 2776 Email ). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other IJHS special issues planned: "How the study of Hinduism might contribute in larger ways to the study of religion?" (planned for March 1998) "Book Symposium on Robert Levy's _Mesocosm: Hinduism and the Organization of a Traditional Newar City in Nepal_" (planned for December 1997) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 16:12:43 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 16:12:43 +0000 Subject: [Job announcement] South Asian history at Brown Message-ID: <161227025041.23782.13518471951374385365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am forwarding this announcement; all responses to Brown, not me. Best wishes, Dominik --------------- begin forwarded message -------------- SOUTH ASIAN HISTORY The History Department of Brown University in Rhode Island seeks to make an appointment to a position funded by the St. Purandar Das Gift to to begin in July, 1997. The appointment may be at any level and may, if appropriate carry tenure. Candidates must be committed to undergraduate teaching as well as research in South Asian history. PhD (or equivalent) is required. Applicants must send a personal statement, a CV, and a list of five references to: Chair, South Asian History Search Committee, Department of History, Brown University, Box N, Providence, RI 02912. The application deadline date is September 1, 1996. ------------- end of forwarded message --------------- [The secretary of the S. A. department at Brown is Frances Wheaton ] From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 16:14:30 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 16:14:30 +0000 Subject: [Job announcement] correction Message-ID: <161227025043.23782.890979178843951002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I said Fran Wheaton was the secretary of S. Asia; wrong, she is secretary of History. Sorry. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Fri Jun 14 21:18:31 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 22:18:31 +0100 Subject: IIAS Internet Guide to Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227025048.23782.1314810775095739869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now available via the IIAS-homepage (http://iias.leidenuniv.nl): the IIAS Internet Guide to Asian Studies with: general basic information on Electronic Discussion / Mailing Lists, Telnet, Gopher, Gopher, World Wide Web, Newsgroups, Electronic Publishing (+ how to contact / subscribe); and: a list of electronic lists, gopher sites, www sites, newsgroups, library catalogues, etc. relevant to Asian Studies. The IIAS Internet Guide to Asian Studies is also available as a hard copy (DFL 20,-, to be ordered at IIAS, P.O.Box 9515, 2300 RA, Leiden; info: IIAS at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL). Jan Houben From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Sat Jun 15 19:25:23 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 14:25:23 -0500 Subject: Locating for Early Computer Indologists Message-ID: <161227025050.23782.15463465393893498113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several of us have been working with an e-text of the Rig Veda found at the Oxford Text Archive, deposited via Rutgers (RLIN) which apparently was done in the 1970's (the records are unclear). the complilers were H.S. Ananthanarayana and W.P. Lehmann. These are the only names available in the citation. Whether done in the 70's or not (imagine, though, with those low-memory early 5 1/4" disks, and a text that size!), does anyone know of either individual or how they could be reached. Their code is quite impressively systematic and we were hoping to contact them to learn more about the procedure they used. Any help would be greatly welcome Thank you in advance, John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Sat Jun 15 19:44:42 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:44:42 -0400 Subject: Locating for Early Computer Indologists Message-ID: <161227025055.23782.8306537991431620530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, John Gardner wrote: > Several of us have been working with an e-text of the Rig Veda found at the > Oxford Text Archive, deposited via Rutgers (RLIN) which apparently was > done in the 1970's (the records are unclear). the complilers were H.S. > Ananthanarayana and W.P. Lehmann. These are the only names available in > the citation. Whether done in the 70's or not (imagine, though, with > those low-memory early 5 1/4" disks, and a text that size!), does anyone > know of either individual or how they could be reached. Their code is > quite impressively systematic and we were hoping to contact them to learn > more about the procedure they used. > > Any help would be greatly welcome > > Thank you in advance, > > John Robert Gardner > University of Iowa Winfred P. Lehmann is the director of the Linguistics Research Center at The University of Texas at Austin (P.O. Box 7247, Austin, Texas 78713-7247. Center's Tel 512-471-4566 Fax 512-471-6084 Email: LRC at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu). Sushil Mittal International Institute of India Studies From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Sat Jun 15 21:04:59 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 22:04:59 +0100 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025052.23782.2715937732129081675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:32:38 LGoehler at aol.com wrote: but the best book that I found on this topic and that is not mentioned by Tambiah is: Pierre Bourdieu: Ce que parler veut dire. L' economie des echanges linguistiques. Paris 1982. Bourdieu writes against the Opposition of magic and rationality (my translation - sorry in advance for mistakes): *Who, in the way of Max Weber, opposes magic or charismatic law of a common oath or an ordeal to our law which is predictable and calculateable, forgets that also this throughout rationalized law is nothing more than a happy act (I took this formulation from Austin - L.G.) of social magic.* -=-=-=-=-=-=- See also the "reincarnation" of this statement in Language and Symbolic Power, Pierre Bourdieu, edited and introduced by John B. Thompson, translated by Gino Raymond and Matthew Adamson (Pollity Press, 1991), p. 42: "Those who, like Max Weber, have set the magical or charismatic law of the collective oath or the ordeal in opposition to a rational law based on calculability and predictability, forget that the most rigorously rationalized law is never anything more than an act of social magic which works." Although it does not directly address the topic of "magic", I would like to mention a recent article in which Bourdieu's (and Eugene Weber's, and Benedict Anderson's) theories on language and power are confronted with data in the history of Sanskrit, namely John D. Kelly's "What was Sanskrit for: metadiscursive strategies in Ancient India" (in Ideology and Status of Sanskrit: Contributions to the History of the Sanskrit Language, Leiden: Brill, in press). According to Kelly: "Our studies change when we approach texts not as windows to distant world views but as tools made for use and used effectively (though not necessarily as originally intended) in distant places and times." Jan E.M. Houben Research fellow International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From thompson at handel.jlc.net Sun Jun 16 14:18:53 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: "indigenous categories" Message-ID: <161227025057.23782.10302003402529646906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to comment on J. Houben's recent remarks re "indigenous categories": >According to one "indigenous" perception the sun will not rise if a Rsi does >not perform his SAndhya (this was, when I am not mistaken, the claim of >JaratkAru (m), note the context: when he wanted to get rid of his wife >JaratkAru (f), see MahAbhArata). >Another "indigenous" perception is as follows: >vyAghrAdivyapadezena yathA bAlo nivartyate | >asatyo 'pi tathA kaz cit pratyavAyo 'bhidhIyate || >"Just as a child is kept away from something by telling it stories about >tigers >etc., like that [sacred texts] speak of some bad consequence even though it is >not real" (Bhartrhari, VAkyapadIya 2.321). > >Which "indigenous" perception, and which presupposed categories should we take >as our standard for scholarly interpretations of Vedic and Hindu ritual? >The cited statement of the grammarian-philosopher Bhartrhari is of course not >as sceptical as it may look at first sight. It is in full agreement with the >classical MImAMsaka-attitude according to which ArthavAdas merely >reinforce the >Vidhi, without strong independent truth-claim. > Houben's point is well taken: a "world-view" is not likely to be a homogeneous thing, manifesting itself everywhere and always in the same way. Generalizations about it must be made cautiously, with an eye to contradictions, oppositions, and inconsistencies. A theory of speech acts would also require that we attend to the *function* of any given text, and to refrain from assuming that a given text is merely making a truth claim, and nothing else. Here I think that Jakobson's treatment of the functions of language is relevant, since it enables us to view any given utterance as having more than one function, each operating at the same time [e.g., when the Vedic poet says "I now proclaim the noble deeds of Indra", I discern *at least* three functions...phatic, assertive, declarative]. Houben has made roughly this same point, I think, in his reference to Kelly. As for the passages cited above, and the apparent inconsistency between the RSi's belief in the efficacy of his ritual and the philosopher's apparent skepticism, I think the following anecdote might be relevant. These are the words of a ritual specialist from Senegal [recorded by Pierre Smith]: "When we announce to the future initiates that the masks are going to cut off their heads, they should act as if they believe it. If one of them acts skeptical or put out, it is very serious and he must be severely punished. But if one of them believes too strongly and gets upset, tries to run away or loses control, it is even more serious. This is the sign that he will never be able to live among us as a man, and in the old days they preferred to kill him and be done with it." ["Aspects of the Organization of Rites" in 'Between Belief & Transgression: Structuralist Essays in Religion, History & Myth', [eds. M. Izard & P. Smith] Univ. Chicago Pr. 1982] When I first encountered this anecdote more than a dozen years ago, I was immediately struck by its significance, and I always cite it in a course on ritual studies which I teach every year. I wonder whether Mssrs. Houben and Goehler, or anyone else, would agree that it may have a certain relevance to Vedic studies, or to the present matter of this thread. Sincerely, George Thompson From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun Jun 16 16:29:26 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 16:29:26 +0000 Subject: Language Teaching Software (fwd) Message-ID: <161227025059.23782.12200907919005130162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some instructional software for Sanskrit and other languages. I haven't tried it. No endorsements etc. Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:38:51 -0400 From: LibPhil at aol.com Subject: Language Teaching Software Liberation Philology cordially invites you ... and all the visitors to your homepage to examine our DOS and MacOS shareware and demonstration programs. These programs teach the grammar and/or vocabulary of: Basque, Bulgarian, Catalan, Cornish, Esperanto, French, Wulfilan Gothic, Ancient Greek, Indonesian, Medieval and Modern Irish, Latin, Malagasy, Nahuatl, Old English, Old Occitan, Pali, Portuguese, Quechua, Romontsch, Sanskrit, Sardinian, Urdu, Welsh and Yiddish. http://members.aol.com/libphil/ Regrets Only: LibPhil at aol.com From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Jun 16 23:45:47 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 19:45:47 -0400 Subject: references? Message-ID: <161227025062.23782.16366648297530679325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I have in front of me a twenty-some year old typescript of two studies on Grammatical Discussions in the Abhidharmako"sa and Abhidharmako"savyaakhyaa by Nobuhiko Kobayahi. The first one is titled: "On the Word Pratiityasamutpaada: A discussion in the AKVyaakhyaa", and the second is titled: "Grammatical References in the AKV". These were done while Kobayahi was at the University of Toronto. Does anyone know if these were ever published? Any reference of their publication? Thanks in advance for any help. Madhav Deshpande From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon Jun 17 13:01:43 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 09:01:43 -0400 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227025073.23782.4257114615260931660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently Mikael Aktor has made the excellent suggestion that members try to inform each other via Indology of their recent publications. In fact, I would like to make a further proposal. Recently, having had reason to take a look at some old issues of the _Bibliographie Bouddhique_ I was reminded of the sad lack of any comperable review these days. As a Buddhism specialist, ideally I would hope for a return of the old BB, but I think it will not happen. What we on Indology might be able to do, however, is create a more-or-less informal *Bibliographie Indologique. How about a Web site that would contain either new publication information and / or brief summaries of recent works, either by the author or others. I do not think that we want to be too strict about the format. The old BB often had summaries by the authors of the works in question. Obviously these are not critical, but they are nevertheless extremely helpful in finding out what exists. So, perhaps in addition to members notifying each other of their own publications, each one of us could make an effort to report on recent journals -- especially the more obscure ones -- and publications that come to our notice. Their posting to a searchable web site would make this into a sort of constantly renewable resource. I have no computer expertise, but it does not *seem* to me such a technically difficult thing to set up. Also, the range of topics covered by Classical Indian studies would *probably* not generate a list too large to be managable. Any responses? Jonathan Silk From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon Jun 17 14:07:34 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:07:34 -0400 Subject: help with siva purana? Message-ID: <161227025075.23782.4901164346729976549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have recently found an article in which R S Bhattacharya claims that in Siva Purana II.5.16.11 the Buddha is referred to as yogaacaarya. (The article is in Purana 24 / 2 (1982): 388). I have access only to an English translation of the text, which suggests that, in this listing of avatara of Vishnu, it might be Vishnu who is yogaacaarya, rather than the Buddha. But I am not sure. Interlibrary Loan for some reason seems unable to find me a copy of the Skt text. Does someone have it at hand, and can quote me the verse? I would appreciate and acknowledge the help! Many thanks! jonathan From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Mon Jun 17 09:04:51 1996 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 11:04:51 +0200 Subject: Locating for Early Computer Indologists Message-ID: <161227025064.23782.12303539372265624210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Several of us have been working with an e-text of the Rig Veda you can have a look in our WWW-server http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/texte.htm#ved and also under http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/rv-inf-e.htm best regards J.M. -- -- ================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Martinez Garcia Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 7982 2847 Universitt Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 7982 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 7982 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de ================================================================= From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Mon Jun 17 09:24:08 1996 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (Fco. Javier Mart177nez Garc177a) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 11:24:08 +0200 Subject: Locating for Early Computer Indologists Message-ID: <161227025066.23782.16775292074830871474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Several of us have been working with an e-text of the Rig Veda found you can have a look in our WWW-server http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/texte.htm#ved and also under http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/rv-inf-e.htm best regards J.M. -- -- ================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Martinez Garcia Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 7982 2847 Universitt Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 7982 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 7982 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de ================================================================= From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 13:04:49 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda text added to archive Message-ID: <161227025068.23782.6381660292994059249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The text of the Rigveda which has been mentioned here recently is now available from the INDOLOGY ftp site and via the INDOLOGY web page. ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts/Rigveda.[zip?readme] http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html and select Supplementary files area Many thanks to John Gardner and colleagues for finding and processing this text. -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 13:13:11 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 13:13:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] web update Message-ID: <161227025070.23782.11302810225228208272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been several minor changes to the INDOLOGY web pages, as well as the addition of some new links, etc. I'm afraid I am not currently documenting changes I make to the INDOLOGY web site, but I do keep it up to date, with some work being done each week, and especially some weekends. So if you have not looked at the pages for a while, you may expect to see some changes if you look again. If you have a link that you think should be included on the INDOLOGY pages somewhere, let me know. Personal home pages change quite frequently, as people move about, whereas library catalogues and institutional web sites are more stable. So I am particularly interested in links to major institutions, libraries, and projects. Since the amount of work in keeping a web site up to date increases with the number of links it provides, I am interested in keeping down the number of links from the INDOLOGY web site. What I want is to keep the links down to the minimum set that will provide you with the maximum number of relevant further links. Enjoy, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From sohum at ms.uky.edu Mon Jun 17 19:47:32 1996 From: sohum at ms.uky.edu (sohum at ms.uky.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 15:47:32 -0400 Subject: e-Rigveda Message-ID: <161227025084.23782.5244017771556633152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Dr. Fco. Javier Martinez Garcia, I read your mail in the INDOLOGY group stating that: ||> Several of us have been working with an e-text of the Rig Veda || ||you can have a look in our WWW-server ||http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/texte.htm#ved ||and also under ||http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/rv-inf-e.htm || ||best regards ||J.M. I have known of Titus and have looked at the list of Vedic texts available. For some reason I never figured out how the texts are available for use and so did not actually pursue it any further. Recently, I corresponded with Dr. Jost Gippert and have been helping out with proofreading of manusmR^iti and some Kalidasa work. So now I know that you need a password and account to access the archive. I have these now. I am deeply interested in the state of the Rigveda. I have a suspicion that this is the same text that is being worked on by John Gardner and myself after a lot of initial work by Kim Poulsen, Nandu Abhyankar and Avinash Chopade. As far as we knew the work was in Rutgers first and in the Oxford archives and was supposedly deposited by Robert Kahn (Khan?). Recently, thru John Gardner, I learned the names of Ananthanarayana and Lehman associated with it and now it seems that you have been working on exactly the same text - as I read in your web site. We have been interested in converting it to ITRANS with a ready conversion to devanaagarii thru LaTeX. We have no accent markings included. There were some apparent markings in the original files, but in the current form they do not seem to be clear or accurate in any sense (perhaps due to our misunderstanding of the notations). I started looking at the parishishhThaas (khilaani as they are probably known) in my own devanaagarii version and since these were missing, I have since encoded them. I am not sure if I have found all yet! John Gardner has been cleaning up the mandalas one by one and the current form has been put up on the Indology site by Dominik. Please let us know the state and intended final use/version of your edition. We intend our version to be in full public domain, but there is no need to continue, if you have already finished it. I am enclosing copies of this letters to the other people involved in this project. Thanks in advance for prompt response. -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | And now, the next thought is from our CPU ... >>>>>>>>>>>> Some programming languages manage to absorb change but withstand progress. From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon Jun 17 19:59:22 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 15:59:22 -0400 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227025086.23782.17713330369831458444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Fosse speaks of a lovely, ideal world. My suggestion does not, I think, contradict his, but is perhaps a bit more hopeful of realization. Everything since 1850? Even if we split up all the work between every member of this list, when would we finish? (I seem to remember some Latin about ... vita brevis). Why not start small and with some hope of actually accomplishing something? jonathan From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 15:59:31 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 15:59:31 +0000 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227025077.23782.2604030679141966021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I heartily concur with Jonathan's suggestion, and I would like to offer the INDOLOGY web site as a host for such a service. The only proviso is that I do not have the resources to do the actual work of compiling, editing, and maintining such a resource myself. So if someone wishes to take on the work, I can provide the locus. I think INDOLOGY would be a very appropriate site for such an ongoing "current awareness" service. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Jun 17 15:02:29 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 17:02:29 +0200 Subject: help with siva purana? Message-ID: <161227025080.23782.4592904128831612541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk asks: >I have recently found an article in which R S Bhattacharya claims that in >Siva Purana II.5.16.11 the Buddha is referred to as yogaacaarya. (The >article is in Purana 24 / 2 (1982): 388). I have access only to an English >translation of the text, which suggests that, in this listing of avatara of >Vishnu, it might be Vishnu who is yogaacaarya, rather than the Buddha. But I >am not sure. Interlibrary Loan for some reason seems unable to find me a >copy of the Skt text. Does someone have it at hand, and can quote me the >verse? I would appreciate and acknowledge the help! > In the edition I have at hand (Shri Venkateshvara Press, Bombay, 1965) the vers reads: namas te gUDhadehAya vedaniMdAkarAya ca yogAcAryAya jainAya bauddharUpAya mApate. Georg Simson From sohum at ms.uky.edu Tue Jun 18 00:35:16 1996 From: sohum at ms.uky.edu (sohum at ms.uky.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:35:16 -0400 Subject: e-Rigveda message Message-ID: <161227025091.23782.9746770846616757632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the Indology group, I am sorry for posting the reply to the general list. Even though the matter was not improper, the details were not relevant to the whole group. I only meant to send private mail in response and forgot to change the address field at the end! Sorry. -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | And now, the next thought is from our CPU ... >>>>>>>>>>>> "Nuclear war would really set back cable." -- Ted Turner From L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mon Jun 17 11:41:44 1996 From: L.M.Fosse at internet.no (L.M.Fosse at internet.no) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 21:41:44 +1000 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227025082.23782.8034335190318540579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re a bibliographie indologique: May I turn your attention to a project that has been going on on the AN-LANG list for some time now? Here scholars have been busy constructing an on-line bibliography for austronesian languages. It is down-loadable, and you can put the data into your bibliographic programme. I suggest that Indologists should consider a similar project where all books and articles/papers relevant to Indology are registered with key words etc. I would also suggest that such a bibliography should contain information on anything written in Indology since the mid-1850's. With a bit of organization and sharing of work, the Indological milieu should be able to give itself a splendid bibliographic tool that would be of help to all of us. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, N-0674 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no From L.M.Fosse at internet.no Mon Jun 17 13:19:22 1996 From: L.M.Fosse at internet.no (L.M.Fosse at internet.no) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 23:19:22 +1000 Subject: Abstracts on INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227025089.23782.12475019390622621287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dr Fosse speaks of a lovely, ideal world. My suggestion does not, I think, >contradict his, but is perhaps a bit more hopeful of realization. Everything >since 1850? Even if we split up all the work between every member of this >list, when would we finish? (I seem to remember some Latin about ... vita >brevis). Why not start small and with some hope of actually accomplishing >something? I can't see that there is any contradiction. We would of course not have to do everything at a once. We could start nice and easy with the most recent stuff and work our way backwards. If the Austronesian guys can do something like this, why shouldn't we be able to? I suggest that we discuss this in Bangalore in January. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, N-0674 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no >?From indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de 18 1996 Jun +0100 01:29:00 Date: 18 Jun 1996 01:29:00 +0100 From: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Abstracts on INDOLOGY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: peter at pwyz.rhein.de In your message: <01I60D9MHZ8891VV6B at wmich.edu> date: <17 Jun 96> You wrote on "Re: Abstracts on INDOLOGY": >Recently, having had reason to take >a look at some old issues of the _Bibliographie Bouddhique_ I was reminded >of the sad lack of any comperable review these days. This is also true of other areas of indological interest, e.g. where is the reference tool for Kavya? >How about a Web >site that would contain either new publication information and / or brief >summaries of recent works, either by the author or others. I do not think >that we want to be too strict about the format. >[...] >to our notice. Their posting to a searchable web site would make this into >a sort of constantly renewable resource. I have no computer expertise, but >it does not *seem* to me such a technically difficult thing to set up. >Also, the range of topics covered by Classical Indian studies would >*probably* not generate a list too large to be managable. Your suggestion is surely most welcome. This will fill a gap in scholarly documentation. But I may add some remarks: 1. As Dominik Wujastyk remarks you need a sort of editor/maintainer who should try to unify the different notices from different sources. Some people have their own sloppy ways of citing bibliographic data. It should be clear if it is a reprint (changed or unchanged?), where it is published and so on. One important thing is also to check the names of the authors: a title from "Haraprasada Sastri" may be also found under "Shastri", perhaps also "Sastry". Once I have found a "H. Akira" in a bookseller's list who is no one else than "Akira Hirakawa". 2. If it is a database in a database format then this may increase search speed. 3. And counterchecks at least of some of the bibliographical data coming in will avoid ghost-works (I know some of them: existing only in some bibliographies). This requires someone with access to a not too small library. 4. A difficult task is to deal with all the languages of the publications. Buddhist research is done in all of the major European and Asian languages. A bibliography of Buddhist materials *must* -- of course -- contain Japanese publications. This means: copying the table of contents of Indogaku Bukkyogaku Kenkyu isn't enough. 5. The original titles of the works should always be transparent. Nothing is more annoying than to find a promising English title which is really in Burmese and you do not read nor understand this language. \bye Peter Wyzlic From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue Jun 18 13:39:09 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 09:39:09 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025101.23782.1308969966714201972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Peter Fluegel's recent observations: >It seems more productive >to investigate the pragmatics of language usage in context without >prejudicing the results by way of labels like 'magic'.Tambiah is >certainly right in stressing that this task 'has still to be completed'. >In fact - it has hardly begun. Unfortunately Tambiah himself never really >investigated speech acts but confined himself to a few programmatic >statements along the lines of Wittgensteinian linguistic philosophy. > > While I agree in general... [in fact I think that the point has already been made: >>Often the theory is used rather vaguely to deal with such "theoretical" >>constructs as "ritual" or "magic" or "mantras" [as J. Houben has already >>suggested; I must add that I am somewhat sympathetic with Staal's >>critique of the use of speech act theory in this way<<] ...I am not quite sure that we can avoid using the term 'magic.' In the case of a speech act like the Indic satyakriyA, the only way that I have been able to distinguish this from other closely related speech acts, as I have said, is to resort to Searle's category "supernatural declaration." I have preferred to adopt the term "magical performative" because it seems more accurate, but I am willing to yield to a better description of the satyakriyA and to a more precise characterization of its distinctive features. It is clearly different from the other speech acts with which it has been compared. George Thompson From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Tue Jun 18 03:12:39 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 11:12:39 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] web update Message-ID: <161227025093.23782.6240809377923292112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Dominik, You might me interested in the following link to Jiva who is involved in creating electronic versions (scanned images) of unpublished manuscripts. This is an organisation that is based in India. http://www.silverleaf.com/jiva/library/library.html Regards...Devadas At 01:35 PM 6/17/96 BST, you wrote: > deleted > >If you have a link that you think should be included on the INDOLOGY pages >somewhere, let me know. > From pf at cix.compulink.co.uk Tue Jun 18 11:14:00 1996 From: pf at cix.compulink.co.uk (pf at cix.compulink.co.uk) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 11:14:00 +0000 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025098.23782.2726694894553075963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In-Reply-To: <960613133237_413486994 at emout09.mail.aol.com> I am amazed which fascination the word 'magic' still holds over our imagination. In Anthropology 'magic' has unfortunately often been treated as a thing in itself. This has lead to rather muddled and, I think, unfruitful debates about the relationship between 'magic' and the various fields of expertise in our beloved universities. It seems more productive to investigate the pragmatics of language usage in context without prejudicing the results by way of labels like 'magic'.Tambiah is certainly right in stressing that this task 'has still to be completed'. In fact - it has hardly begun. Unfortunately Tambiah himself never really investigated speech acts but confined himself to a few programmatic statements along the lines of Wittgensteinian linguistic philosophy. Besides: As far as I know 'The' Frankfurt School never dispensed membership cards. Whether Habermas belongs to this tradition is at least an open question. Certainly he made a useful contribution to the question of the normative implications of speech acts. However, his Durkheimian reconstruction of the genesis of conventions and norms seems questionable. Peter Fluegel From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Tue Jun 18 03:50:42 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (dmenon at pacific.net.sg) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 11:50:42 +0800 Subject: help with siva purana? Message-ID: <161227025096.23782.8444185740441276878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While not directly related to the question, Buddha is not one of the original 10 avatars of Lord Vishnu. I believe Buddha was included as an avatar much later because of personal preferences (like Jayadeva in his Gita Govinda) and/or political reasons following the removal of Buddhism from the mainstrean of Indian life due to the efforts of Sri Sankaracharya. The ten avatars of Lord Vishnu is considered to be: Malsya Koorma Varaha Narasimha Vamana Sri Parashurama Sri Rama Sri Balarama Sri Krishna Kalki Regards...Devadas At 03:17 PM 6/17/96 BST, you wrote: >I have recently found an article in which R S Bhattacharya claims that in >Siva Purana II.5.16.11 the Buddha is referred to as yogaacaarya. (The >article is in Purana 24 / 2 (1982): 388). I have access only to an English >translation of the text, which suggests that, in this listing of avatara of >Vishnu, it might be Vishnu who is yogaacaarya, rather than the Buddha. But I >am not sure. Interlibrary Loan for some reason seems unable to find me a >copy of the Skt text. Does someone have it at hand, and can quote me the >verse? I would appreciate and acknowledge the help! > >Many thanks! > >jonathan > > From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Jun 18 23:24:49 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 19:24:49 -0400 Subject: Question Message-ID: <161227025103.23782.14938991167967241300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, There is a text called Kaa"sikaa by Nandike"svara with a commentary by Upamanyu. This text interprets the Paninian Shivasuutras a la the Tantric doctrines of Kashmir Shaivism. K.C. Pandey discusses this work in his Abhinavagupta book. However, I have not seen any reference to this text or its commentary in a number of Kashmir Shaiva works I have consulted. I cannot say I have checked into every one of these works. Has anyone come across a discussion or citation of these texts in any of the Kashmir Shaiva texts? In the tradition of grammar, Naage"sabha.t.ta refers to it. Would be nice to know of any older citations or references. Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA Wed Jun 19 19:53:16 1996 From: mittals at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Mittal Sushil) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 15:53:16 -0400 Subject: Int'l Seminar on Indology Message-ID: <161227025106.23782.788294859036903430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> International Seminar on Indology: Past, Present and Future The Seminar is organized by the Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages, University of Poona in the first week of February 1997. For further information, contact: Saroja Bhate Professor and Head Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages University of Poona Pune 411 007, India Email: saroja at unipune.ernet.in From wagers at iglobal.net Thu Jun 20 04:41:10 1996 From: wagers at iglobal.net (wagers at iglobal.net) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 23:41:10 -0500 Subject: ousia Acquires European Mirror Message-ID: <161227025108.23782.7853497641141625062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My web suite for scholars entitled "ousia" has acquired a European mirror site in Germany courtesy of Inca. The server seems very stable. This should greatly decrease response times for our European friends. I would appreciate being notified personally of your experiences with the new mirror. The mirror is accessible from the ousia home page. Then you can adjust your links or bookmarks to point to it, if it represents a shorter route to your site. I will take this opportunity to remind you that although you may find items of interest in other modules, only the four modules are complete: for the Compositor ... for the Egyptologist ... for the Indologist ... for the Mayanist ... I am currently on the lookout for an Asian mirror site. Regards, Will wagers at iglobal.net Reality is the best metaphor. http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Egyptologist.html http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Indologist.html http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/Mayanist.html Egyptology Web Ring: http://www.iglobal.net/pub/wagers/ousia/KMT.html From aditya at icanect.net Thu Jun 20 15:03:31 1996 From: aditya at icanect.net (aditya at icanect.net) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 15:03:31 +0000 Subject: chole ke piche Message-ID: <161227025112.23782.10427849050909398838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Friedlander has on Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:15:37 BST written as follows: >a rather mundane question: >The contraversial Hindi film song chole ke piche contains a line that sounds >like *baalii umariyaa merii, baalii umariyaa, sunii sajariyaa merii, sunii >sajariyaa* >anyone have any idea what this might mean? Means:"I am very young (may be minor), my (?) is deserted" Have a prosperous and peaceful day. --------------- Aditya Mishra http://www.icanect.net/~aditya Alternate email address: a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ************************************************************ The opinions expressed herein are continually mutating and * might have already been changed by the time you read them * owing to the more recent information that became available.* ************************************************************ From PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 20 16:31:35 1996 From: PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU (Rita Vimal-Pandey) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 16:31:35 +0000 Subject: chole ke piche Message-ID: <161227025114.23782.13375738427848331952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:16 AM 6/20/96 BST, you wrote: this line means I am young(baali, umariya (age)) and my bed (sejariya) is deserted (soonee). >a rather mundane question: >The contraversial Hindi film song chole ke piche contains a line that sounds >like *baalii umariyaa merii, baalii umariyaa, sunii sajariyaa merii, sunii >sajariyaa* >anyone have any idea what this might mean? >thanks for all suggestions >Dr Peter G. Friedlander >Hindi Distance Learning Project >School of Asian Studies >La Trobe University >Bundoora 3081 >Victoria >Australia >email: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au > > > From astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 20 07:08:41 1996 From: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au (Peter Friedlander) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 17:08:41 +1000 Subject: chole ke piche Message-ID: <161227025110.23782.12740391580161229481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> a rather mundane question: The contraversial Hindi film song chole ke piche contains a line that sounds like *baalii umariyaa merii, baalii umariyaa, sunii sajariyaa merii, sunii sajariyaa* anyone have any idea what this might mean? thanks for all suggestions Dr Peter G. Friedlander Hindi Distance Learning Project School of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora 3081 Victoria Australia email: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Jun 21 05:10:15 1996 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 00:10:15 -0500 Subject: Leuven position Message-ID: <161227025119.23782.18372689434983669921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I received the following from W. Callewaert, who is not a member of this listserv. F. Smith Univ. of Iowa 4-year Post-Doctoral Research Fellowship at KU, Leuven (Belgium), under the direction of Professor Winand Callewaert, beginning 1st October 1996. The Research Fellow will work on a Nirguna-Bhakti Hindi-English dictionary, being compiled from existing textual databases that include the full text of the Guru Granth Sahib, the Nirguna Bhakti Sagar, and the Gopaldas Sarvangi. A candidate for this position should have extensive knowledge of pre-modern Hindi bhakti literature in its various dialects, as well as basic computer skills. This project has been generously funded by the Research Fund of KU Leuven University, Department of Asian Studies, and the salary will include a very adequate living stipend as well as a generous benefits package (details available on inquiry). Because of the long-term and painstaking nature of this work, applicants willing to commit themselves to four years will be preferred, but those who may be able to come for two years, with a possibility of renewal for a further two years, may also be considered. A complete application should include CV, and three letters of reference, and should be mailed to the address below, to arrive no later than 15 August 1996: Prof. Winand Callewaert Blijde Inkomststraat 21, Department of Asian Studies 3000 Leuven, Belgium (tel. 32 16 324945) For further information, kindly contact: winand.callewaert at arts.kuleuven.ac.be From astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 20 22:44:15 1996 From: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au (Peter Friedlander) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 08:44:15 +1000 Subject: chole ke piche, thanks Message-ID: <161227025116.23782.10329694318890338006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to everyone who helped with translations of that phrase from the song. Dr Peter G. Friedlander Hindi Distance Learning Project School of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora 3081 Victoria Australia email: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au From AmitaSarin at aol.com Fri Jun 21 21:16:15 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 17:16:15 -0400 Subject: Stereotyped images of India in school texts Message-ID: <161227025121.23782.10604988234121979401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members, Some weeks ago a bibliography on the subject of stereotyped images of India in school texts was posted. I saved the copy so carefully that I cannot find it! If anyone can forward that to me I would greatly appreciate it. Many thanks, Amita Sarin amitasarin at aol.com From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it Fri Jun 21 21:54:16 1996 From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (torella at axrma.uniroma1.it) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 21:54:16 +0000 Subject: Question Message-ID: <161227025123.23782.16199372173980400170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Folks, > There is a text called Kaa"sikaa by Nandike"svara with a >commentary by Upamanyu. This text interprets the Paninian Shivasuutras a >la the Tantric doctrines of Kashmir Shaivism. K.C. Pandey discusses this >work in his Abhinavagupta book. However, I have not seen any reference >to this text or its commentary in a number of Kashmir Shaiva works I have >consulted. I cannot say I have checked into every one of these works. >Has anyone come across a discussion or citation of these texts in any of >the Kashmir Shaiva texts? In the tradition of grammar, Naage"sabha.t.ta >refers to it. Would be nice to know of any older citations or references. > Thanks. > Madhav Deshpande Dear Madhav, I don't remember to have seen any reference to the Nandikezvara-kAzikA/kArikA in any Kashmir Shaiva texts (even in those one most might have expected to find it, like the ParAtriMzikAvivaraNa or TantrAloka ch.III). In fact, the only reference to it I am aware of is that by NAgeza. My impression is that this is not an old text (a forerunner of the Kashmiri Shaiva doctrines, as Pandey thinks) but a late one which rather presupposes the doctrines of the so-called 'Kashmir Shaivism' at a post-exegetical stage (e.g. the first verse of the SpandakArikA is distinctly echoed by a verse of the NK.). Anyhow, I might say something more definite only after re-reading this text (which I don't have at hand now). Best regards, Raffaele Torella Raffaele Torella Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax: 6-4451209) From AmitaSarin at aol.com Sat Jun 22 14:50:00 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 10:50:00 -0400 Subject: Images of India in School texts Message-ID: <161227025126.23782.3624143553834841329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all of you who forwarded me copies of Jain's posting on this subject. Best regards, Amita Sarin From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Sat Jun 22 21:18:42 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 17:18:42 -0400 Subject: British Views Message-ID: <161227025128.23782.9124750685325416741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TO: Indology at liverpool.ac.uk. Those of you who are interested in British Views and Images of the Colonies (19th century) may also wish to have a look at the following publication: Periodicals of Queen Victoria's Empire: an exploration, edited by J. Don Vann and Rosemary T. VanArsdel (University of Toronto Press, 1996). ISBN 0-8020-0810-0 $80.00 Also, please do not overlook the Western views of Islam (particularly South Asian Islam). The British generally looked at Muslims and so-called martial races much more favourably than they did the idol-worshipers and 'heathens'. I can post a few references if there is any interest in this sub-topic of the larger picture of British views and images of India. Conversely, we may also be interested in the indigenous views of the 'mallachhes'. [I'm sorry my server is giving me some trouble... more later] Sushil Jain Institute of Asian Cultures From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Sun Jun 23 13:45:24 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 09:45:24 -0400 Subject: Bakker's current opinion on the existence of Ramjanmabhumi temple Message-ID: <161227025130.23782.3115476044065735357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members: From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Sun Jun 23 16:12:49 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: Bakker on Janmabhumi temple (retry) Message-ID: <161227025131.23782.4591414983952693776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I apologize the eariler post that left out the actual question.] A few months back I remember seeing an article in some proccedings (I have mislaid precise reference) that quoted Hans Bakker to deny the existence of a Ramjanmabhumi temple. The only references given there were Bakker's book ``Ayodhya'' and his Numen article of 1991; both say that a temple constructed in the 11th century existed. I have tried to locate any later articles by Bakker indicating a change of mind, but have failed. I would appreciate any help in locating such articles. Thanks in advance. -Nath From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Mon Jun 24 07:39:14 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 07:39:14 +0000 Subject: Karl Potter's address Message-ID: <161227025136.23782.7879735853738743940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of Indology, Johannes Bronkhorst (who is temporarily out of this list) is looking for Karl Potter's e-mail address. If somebody has it, please send it directly to Johannes at the following e-mail address: jbronk at violet.berkeley.edu. Thank you. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From magier at columbia.edu Mon Jun 24 12:33:42 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 08:33:42 -0400 Subject: Karl Potter's address Message-ID: <161227025138.23782.5064873618104409095.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Johannes Bronkhorst (who is temporarily out of this list) is > looking for Karl Potter's e-mail address. The International Directory of South Asia Studies has the following entry for Professor Potter, which as submitted in 1994: Karl H. Potter Professor of Philosophy and South Asian Studies University of Washington mailing address: Department of Philosophy University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 USA phone: 206-543-5783 FAX: 206-685-8740 email: kpotter at uwashington.edu --------- David Magier The South Asia Gopher From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Mon Jun 24 10:21:40 1996 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 10:21:40 +0000 Subject: Smarta brahmins Message-ID: <161227025133.23782.1621691763821716552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Smartas are those people who recognise both Siva and Vishnu and most brahmins in Maharashtra are supposed to be Smartas. Where does this word come from? Can someone help me with the etymology of this word and also with some background information on this topic? Thanking you in advance. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From anjanar at muskox.alaska.edu Mon Jun 24 21:41:41 1996 From: anjanar at muskox.alaska.edu (Anjana Roy) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 13:41:41 -0800 Subject: Images of India in School texts Message-ID: <161227025147.23782.14330915722787263926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can I also have a copy of the above mentioned list? I am a Children's librarian, and it will be very useful to me. Thanks. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 AmitaSarin at aol.com wrote: > Many thanks to all of you who forwarded me copies of Jain's posting on this > subject. Best regards, > Amita Sarin > > From LGoehler at aol.com Mon Jun 24 17:50:56 1996 From: LGoehler at aol.com (LGoehler at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 13:50:56 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025140.23782.8152776106237207302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As for the passages cited above, and the apparent inconsistency between the RSi's >belief in the efficacy of his ritual and the philosopher's apparent skepticism, I think the >following anecdote might be relevant. These are the words of a ritual specialist from >Senegal [recorded by Pierre Smith]: >"When we announce to the future initiates that the masks are going to cut off their >heads, they should act as if they believe it. If one of them acts skeptical or put out, it >is very serious and he must be severely punished. But if one of them believes too >strongly and gets upset, tries to run away or loses control, it is even more serious. >This is the sign that he will never be able to live among us as a man, and in the old >days they preferred to kill him and be done with it." >["Aspects of the Organization of Rites" in 'Between Belief & Transgression: >Structuralist Essays in Religion, History & Myth', [eds. M. Izard & P. Smith] Univ. >Chicago Pr. 1982] I have more questions than answers about this interesting quotation which indeed seems to be of importance to this discussion. Does it mean that the Rgvedic RSI's had, say, a certain mythology and at the same time could stand beside themselves saying that one should on the one hand not neglect it and on the other not believe too much in it? It seems to have a certain parallel in way the MImAMsA 'rationalized' Vedic texts according to her pramANa's, so that we find e.g. mythological elements and their explanation according to MImAMsA-methods co-existing. Jan Houben has rightly emphasized the role of the ArthavAda's in this context: At the one hand they are, as parts of the smRti, absolutely authoritative and on the other hand one should not take them "too serious" since they are only meant to emphasize the authoritativeness of the vidhi. (Some truth-claims are certainly involved here but I think that, more than this, Vedic texts according to the MImAMsA had a claim for validity or authoritativeness.) As for the satyakriyA my question is: How far do they derive their 'force' from the words themselves or form their 'magical grammar'? Austin says that the person uttering a performative must be entitled to do so. In the words of Bourdieu it is the 'mystery of the ministry' of the speaker that gives the force to the his words. Which role does the priest-function play in this context? Two additional remaks about the interesting contributions of G. Thompson: >[in the end *everything* is performative for Austin!]. This may be true, but see his 12th Lecture (How to do things with words) "How did the 'constatives'-'performatives' distinction look in the light of our later theory? ... The doctrine of the performative/constative distinction stands to the doctrine of locutionary and illocutionary acts inthe total speech-act als the SPECIAL theory to the GENERAL theory." >I also have cringed at this passage [among others] cited from Elizarenkova, which >seems to be very much out of date, with its evolutionary presuppositions, etc. Can we say that evolutionary concepts are outdated? Or is it a paradox, because the word *outdated* would presuppose an evolutionary concept, at least for an *evolution in theory*? sincerely Lars Goehler From TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Jun 24 21:09:41 1996 From: TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu (Tracy Pintchman) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 16:09:41 -0500 Subject: British Views -Reply Message-ID: <161227025142.23782.16297259917582312685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know if Nabhadas's _Bhaktamal_ has been translated into English? Tracy Pintchman tpintch at luc.edu From TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Jun 24 21:12:34 1996 From: TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu (Tracy Pintchman) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 16:12:34 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227025144.23782.4982119496201966890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another question: I am looking for materials regarding 19th/early 20th century British views on Hindu goddesses and goddess worship. Any suggestions? Tracy Pintchman tpintch at luc.edu From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Tue Jun 25 13:19:04 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 06:19:04 -0700 Subject: Jains and Christians Message-ID: <161227025152.23782.7771091321627631033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might try the Basel Mission records from coastal Karnataka (South Canara). There, too, there were many Jains (esp. in the towns of Mudabidri and Karkala) and avid Christian (but Protestant) missionaries. I don't know if there are any records of their views of Jains or whether their views would reflect Christian missionaries generally, but you might try. Prof. Heidrun Breuckner at Teubingan University is better versed in what the Basel Mission records contain than I. There was an international seminar (academic) of the Basel Mission in India (mostly KA and Ke) several years back at Stutgart. Perhaps one of the papers dealt with you topic. You could contact Peter Kapp (I think) at Heidleberg (I think) for the titles of all the papers for that. Sorry I can't be more precise: I'm about to leave on a 3 week vacation and can't look up any of my data on these matters right now. But the two individuals I mentioned are very knowledgeable. Peter Claus From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Jun 25 15:01:53 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 08:01:53 -0700 Subject: Jains and Christians Message-ID: <161227025157.23782.11259479677822683798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With reference to Peter Friedlander's query, I think, but cannot document at the moment, that I encountered some references to Jains in Church Mission Society papers at the University of Birmingham, but as I was in pursuit of another subject, I took no notes. The Marathi scholar Phillip Engblom, presented a paper on missionary attitudes in Maharashtra at the Wisconsin South Asia Conference last October which documented that two American missionaries had rather different perceptions of a Jain shrine--one knowing that Jainism existed, the other thinking it part of the Hindu order. It sometimes strikes me that late 20th century scholarship on the production of knowledge in India during the 19th century, has insufficient grasp of the contingent and imperfect transmission of that knowledge at the time. I have found that some of my students, once they have mastered a phrase like "colonial project" allow it to take on a life of its own and assume that what was "known" in 1880 was (or ought to have been) known in 1840 or 1820. Frank Conlon University of Washington Co-editor of H-ASIA From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Jun 25 21:06:20 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 14:06:20 -0700 Subject: Smarta brahmins Message-ID: <161227025161.23782.3770405894991697712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> smArta is derived from smr.ti, so that strictly, smArta refers to those who follow the smr.ti codes like Apastamba's or bodhAyana's sUtras. There are other such smr.tis. Read P. V. Kane's five volumes of "History of Dharmasastra" for details. A recent publication by Yoshitsugu Sawai, "The faith of ascetics and lay smArtas: a study of the Sankaran tradition of Srngeri", (Sammlung de Nobili, Institut fur Indologie der Universitat Wien, 1992), has a brief description of smArtas in Maharashtra, according to Srinivas Sastri of Pune. All brAhmaNas were designated as smArtas originally, except that with the rise of SrI vaishNavism in the south, the word came to refer to those who were not SrI vaishNavas. Also, smArtas are either advaitin or dvaitin, the former group being followers of Sankaracharya and the latter being followers of Madhvacharya. These groups can also be distinguished by means of external marks on the forehead. The advaitins are mainly "tripuNDra" - i.e. they wear three horizontal stripes of ash on the forehead, and follow pancAyatana pUjA schemes. The "dvaitins" are always "UrdhvapuNDras" i.e. they wear vertical stripes of a yellow mud called gopicandana. However, you can also find the use of gopicandana among the advaitin smArtas. Going by this information, I assume that the term smArta is applied both to advaitins and dvaitins in the Maharashtra region. The situation is different further south. In Karnataka, smArta refers exclusively to followers of Sankaracharya, affiliated mainly to the Sringeri math and its branches. The dvaitins are never called smArta, and are always referred to as mAdhvas. A similar distinction is seen in the Telugu and Tamil speaking regions - only here the distinction is seen more between Iyers (smArtas) and Iyengars (SrI vaishNavas). I have never seen the term smArta being used to describe the nambUdiris of Kerala, although by definition, they are also followers of smr.tis, and hence "smArta". There is an entry in the Encyclopedia Brittanica on "smArta", according to which smArta refers to the three upper varNas, and not just to brAhmaNas. This article also points out that in the south, smArtas are essentially followers of Sankara, while in the north, smArtas are more diverse. S. Vidyasankar ps. Given that nobody really follows the codes of the smr.tis any more, how valid is the continued use of the word smArta by south Indian brahmanas today? From thompson at handel.jlc.net Tue Jun 25 19:31:15 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 15:31:15 -0400 Subject: overemphasis on magic Message-ID: <161227025159.23782.10732948933380118697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Lars Goehler's questions & comments: I have quoted these remarks from a "ritual specialist" from Senegal because I think that they reflect an attitude that also can be found in the RV [perhaps elsewhere in the tradition as well: I make no claims beyond the early Vedic period, although Frits Staal's fieldwork suggests to me that these remarks may still apply, even today; perhaps others can confirm or deny this]. There are passages in the RV that express a similar sort of skepticism or ambivalence, or perhaps a recognition of their own [i.e., Vedic] language games. I happen to think that the Vedic tradition is remarkably self-reflexive when it comes to language, which is to say that it is highly metalinguistic. The passage suggests a certain attitude toward the relationship between "saying" and "doing" [both are obligatory --> nitya?]. "Believing" is of only secondary importance. The tradition requires a certain amount of pretending to believe, rather than belief itself. Staal talks about Vedic "orthopraxy" rather than "orthodoxy." To some Vedic RSis, I would suggest, it hardly mattered whether Indra existed, or not. Another consequence of this attitude is that their "saty?" doesn't fully correspond to our "truth," as is well known. On the other hand, the matter of authority was crucial in Vedic, as in the MImAMsA texts. The satyakriyA is an act of authority, but acts of authority come in many shapes and sizes. On the one hand, there is something conventional about satyakriyAs: one must perform them in the regular way [they are rule-governed], like other performatives. On the other hand, the satyakriyA seems to involve charisma that needs no external authorization [cf. the classic example from Buddhist sources of the prostitute BindumatI, who astounds the emperor Asoka & his retinue by sending the Ganges flowing back upstream by means of her saccakiriyA]. In Vedic, the satyakriyA has a great deal to do with "the priest-function", "the mystery of the ministry", but it also revolves around an individual's act of self-assertion. The satyakriyA is an act by means of which one establishes one's authority. As an act it rests on the assumption that the act of speaking itself, if performed solemnly, ritualistically, by a person with charisma, can accomplish miraculous things. In the Rgveda, the human artisans, the Rbhus, become divine by means of a satyakriyA. Briefly, I think I understand why Austin felt obliged to move from a special theory of performatives to a general theory of illocutionary force. For a critique of Austin-Searle taxonomies, see J. Katz "Propositional Structure and Illocutionary Force: A Study of the Contribution of Sentence Meaning to Speech Acts" [Harvard UP, 1980]. Finally, I am not against evolutionary concepts in general or in principle.. It is just that I agree with Houben that early efforts to contrast magic and religion [e.g., the suggestion that the former was replaced by the latter] seem outdated and appropriately abandoned. I am grateful to Lars Goehler for pointing out the vagueness of my previous posting and for helping to clarify this point, among the others. Sincerely, George Thompson From astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 25 07:42:32 1996 From: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au (Peter Friedlander) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 17:42:32 +1000 Subject: Jains and Christians Message-ID: <161227025150.23782.2574810223921649006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on a Hindi manuscript, written by Svami Ratancand disciple of Harjimal, that is a Jain account of a meeting between some some Jains and some Christians priests in Rajasthan in 1854. Has anyone any idea about how I might find the Christian priests view of the interchange of ideas with the Jains? Either general literature [if it exists] on mid 19th century Christian views of jain tradition, or even, specific accounts of jain christian encounters from the Christian view point. The manuscript does not mention such details as where the meeting took place or who the christian priests were. thanks for any suggestions Dr Peter G. Friedlander Hindi Distance Learning Project School of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora 3081 Victoria Australia email: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au From sushjain at enoreo.on.ca Wed Jun 26 02:25:36 1996 From: sushjain at enoreo.on.ca (Sushil Jain) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 22:25:36 -0400 Subject: New Jews of Britain Message-ID: <161227025163.23782.342762768485616131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: The 'New Jews' of Britain The following post may perhaps seem a bit frivolous (I mean, out of date) to the British members of this newsgroup, but it may be of some value to those outside the Isles who have some interest in the Indian or South Asian 'diaspora'. ------------------ The Office of National Statistics (U.K.) has recently (June 11) its report on *Ethnicity in the 1991* (HMSO, GBP 24.00). Researched by Prof. Ceri Peach and his staff at the Dept. of Social Geography, the report states there are about one and half million British nationals of South Asian origin (a figure, which in my estimation is low), i.e., about 2.4% of the total population. The Indians are the largest group (840,255) followed by the Pakistanis (476,555), and there are 162,835 Bangladeshis (definitely a low number). The impact of South Asian population (presence) on British (particularly English, not so much on the Scottish, less so on the Welsh) civil, political, social, and economic life has been tremendous. It is the latter that has attracted the news reporters and columnists. Writing in the _Daily Express_ ('The New Britons with talents to refresh a Nation', June 13) Mehar Bose says, "The immigrants, particularly the Asians [as the British are fond of calling the people and their descendants from the Indian sub-continent], quite unexpectedly and defying almost every forecast of their likely impact on this country, proved to be that energizing force" (that is) "without them the corner shop and the High Street as we know them might have disappeared". Jason Bennetto ('Asians emerge as the new moneymakers', The Independent, June 12) says, " The Asians, particularly Indians, are set to become one of the most wealthy, dominant middle-class groups of the future". In fact, there are more millionaire per capita amongst the Indian populace than there are in any other national group (including Jews who used to have that status before). Hence, the headline in the Times (June 12), "Indians and Pakistanis the 'new Jews' of Britain. A success story, among others, that is cited by the columnist Bennetto, is that of Swaraj Paul, head of the Caparo Steel empire who is reputed to be worth about GBP 500 million. Though there have been previous attempts at compiling the census data by various organizations, and there were objections to collecting this kind of data, the question about ethnicity was included for the first time in the 1991 census (in Canada such a question was included in the 1996 census). Though, no doubt, there will be further analyses of this census data, Prof. Peach's pioneering study of this census data will confirm what many people have been saying and observing for some time. Prof. Peach's study already being criticised for its 'stereotypical' image (cf. the 'model' minority issue in the United States) but the author "admits that in using a Jewish- Irish comparison he is stereotyping both communities" (Richard Ford, The Times). According to Peach, "The new Jewish future seems to be coming about for the Indian population..." A spokesman of the Runnymede Trust has called this kind of stereotyping "unhelpful" which is very interesting since the new head of the Trust is Sukhvinder Stubbs who until the age of nine did not speak much English in her Punjabi house but is now at the helm of a very influential race relations organization. The Indians in Britain may not have much political clout, and not that often in the news stories as are perhaps the Pakistanis (or Muslims) who have their own political party and parliament (the Jews have a similar organization), but the Indians (and Pakistanis too) seem to be creating wealth in Britain (hence economic power in the years to come). But, I think, the most noticeable impact on the British society has been the impact of South Asian cuisine which is now widely available, not only in the ethnic restaurants but also in some 'main street' supermarkets. Hurray for samosas, pappadums, nans, biryani, and tandoori. ------------------- This is perhaps my last posting to Indology since I will soon be unsubscribing because I am going overseas for the summer months. To all those who have written to me about "Portrayal of India and Indians on the British and American screens", and "Images of India and Indians in school texts" I shall try to forward the required information in due time. I may however be reached for the next six weeks (with a short break in early August when I will be in South Africa) at the following address: e-mail: SJ20 at le.ac.uk with a copy to (cc:skjain at uwindsor.ca) and/or to the current address bye, now. Sushil Jain From Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au Wed Jun 26 04:19:41 1996 From: Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au (Adrian.Burton at anu.edu.au) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:19:41 -0500 Subject: Smarta brahmins Message-ID: <161227025155.23782.11500099217260817518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I understood that "smaarta" comes from "sm.rti", originally with the meaning "one versed in the sm.rti texts" or "a strict follower of the sm.rti texts." From rtumkur at ford.com Wed Jun 26 11:49:15 1996 From: rtumkur at ford.com (rtumkur at ford.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 07:49:15 -0400 Subject: Request for reference and correct meaning! Message-ID: <161227025165.23782.1086250022135865852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello! Could any of you let me know the correct meaning, the root and references for this Sanskrit word (in the usual transliteration scheme) - the Sanskrit word: mAtarishva thanks in advance, ramu ***************************************************************************** ramukumar; a palindrome ***************************************************************************** From athr at loc.gov Wed Jun 26 14:47:46 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 10:47:46 -0400 Subject: Jains and Christians Message-ID: <161227025169.23782.12617845680978595182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any indication what denomination the priests belonged to? That would narrow the search considerably. Allen Thrasher On Tue, 25 Jun 1996, Peter Friedlander wrote: > I am working on a Hindi manuscript, written by Svami Ratancand disciple of > Harjimal, that is a Jain account of a meeting between some some Jains and > some Christians priests in Rajasthan in 1854. > Has anyone any idea about how I might find the Christian priests view of the > interchange of ideas with the Jains? > Either general literature [if it exists] on mid 19th century Christian views > of jain tradition, or even, specific accounts of jain christian encounters > from the Christian view point. > The manuscript does not mention such details as where the meeting took place > or who the christian priests were. > > thanks for any suggestions > > Dr Peter G. Friedlander > Hindi Distance Learning Project > School of Asian Studies > La Trobe University > Bundoora 3081 > Victoria > Australia > email: astpgf at luga.latrobe.edu.au > > > From jage at loc.gov Wed Jun 26 19:09:58 1996 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 15:09:58 -0400 Subject: Conjuncts List Errors Message-ID: <161227025171.23782.14933111130433075775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, JUne 26, 1996 Indic Scripts Computerizers, I'm sending this note to three lists (Indology, Unicode(tm) and ISO10646) as the surest way to reach most of the people who have copies of my list of Devanagari conjunct consonant combinations published in Bulletin 38 (1991) of the International Association of Orientalist Librarians (IAOL). A careful reader has detected ten errors. Using the published item numbers the following are the correct versions. Here I use a period before a letter for a dot before a letter and an apostrophe for a dot above a letter. Except where given the original citations of sources are correct. 89. g+.na 250. .T+.ta 272. .TH+.tha MWG 274. .TH+tha ISO 353. T+ka+ra 460. D+v+r+ya 473. n+k+.sa 515. N+dh+r+ya 585. f+TA (i.e., ph+nukta+ta) that should be lower case f+ta 706. r+'n+k+.s+ma I regret any inconvienence this may have casued. Regards, JIm Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Wed Jun 26 13:18:16 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 15:18:16 +0200 Subject: Request for reference and correct meaning! Message-ID: <161227025167.23782.7161467844013643001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re mAtarishva Maatari'svan is a mythological figure. He is chief of Marutas, the Winds or Life-spirits. He is also one of the forms of Agni. I do not know the etymology of this name. G. Huet From jage at loc.gov Wed Jun 26 20:57:16 1996 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:57:16 -0400 Subject: Conjuncts Errors #2 Message-ID: <161227025173.23782.17434224624237022780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, June 26, 1996 The earlier email had two errors: 353. T+kh+ra and it didn't get sent to the ISO10646 list. Can someone in Unicode forward it to that list? Thanks and apologies, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu Jun 27 02:13:36 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 22:13:36 -0400 Subject: Request for reference and correct meaning! Message-ID: <161227025175.23782.4622177585129781798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Ramukumar [nice palindrome]: The name mAtari'zvA [-an] is interesting, especially in light of our recent discussion of etymology, folk etymology, and puns. While in general I respect and know how to distinguish historical, well-founded, etymologies from ad hoc folk etymologies, now and then it appears that the way to distinguish them is this: if it comes from a professor of philology from a distinguished European university it is etymology; if it comes from a native speaker it is folk etymology. The name mAtari'zvan illustrates this nicely. In fact, the etymology is contested [see Mayrhofer's review of the various theories in his etymological dictionary]. In further fact, the name has been etymologized for over 3,000 years, starting from the Rgveda itself. At RV 3.29.11 we find what is clearly a punning play on the name [this is not just my opinion; cf. also Renou, Oldenberg, Macdonell, et al.]: mAtari'zvA ya'd a'mimIta mAta'ri [Agni is called] MAtarizvan, because he is measured out [i.e. given form] in the mother.... As it turns out this word-play on a key epithet of Agni holds up quite well, etymologically speaking, against the best efforts of our European philologists at the best universities. In fact, it is better, I think, than Burrow's [which connects it with Latin "matrix"], and Mayrhofer appears to agree with me. In fact, it would appear that most European etymologists accept the implicit folk etymology, that mAtari'zvan should be analyzed as mAtari'- + zvan- [i.e., "growing, swelling up (root zU-) in the mother (loc. sg. of mAta'r)]. In light of the apparent variants, Vedic mAtari'bhvarI, Epic MA'talI [even MAkali, lexical], there is a reasonable chance that the RV effort at etymologizing the name is simply a folk etymology, or a pun, and in fact that we do not have any idea what its true etymology is. Sincerely, George Thompson From L.M.Fosse at internet.no Thu Jun 27 01:23:27 1996 From: L.M.Fosse at internet.no (L.M.Fosse at internet.no) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 11:23:27 +1000 Subject: Etymology Message-ID: <161227025177.23782.14461960334790133887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re folk etymology vs. academic, historical etymology: Would it be fair to say that historical etymologies are based on definable sound laws, whereas folk etymology is based upon association and (imagined) similarity? If so, there is undoubtedly a "grey zone" between the first kind of etymology and the latter. And how do we handle ancient words and concepts that were created by means of folk etymologies? Obviously, such words cannot be explained by ordinary historical etymologies. In an historical context, they become starting points of a development rather than the preliminary end products of a linguistic process. George Thompson has pointed to a very important question when we are dealing with ancient language in his latest email on Maatarishvan. When looking for explanations for religious terms and language, we may sometimes have forego the option of searching for the historical etymology and instead go looking for the folk etymology, which may be the operative force begind certain developments. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, N-0674 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no From thompson at handel.jlc.net Thu Jun 27 18:03:54 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 14:03:54 -0400 Subject: Images of a manuscript of the Yogasutras Message-ID: <161227025182.23782.10799132546292410177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, your note on the mss of the yogasUtras caught my eye. Did you ever receive the attachment to my last post to you? I tried to send [via Eudora] a brief sample of a Bibliographer list. If it worked, and if the Harvard-Kyoto transcription is adequate [and if a set of standard keywords can be settled upon], perhaps I can venture into the beginnings of a Vedic bibliography for Indology. George From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za Thu Jun 27 13:44:24 1996 From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 15:44:24 +0200 Subject: ANNOUNCE: Sanskrit Introductory via ftp Message-ID: <161227025179.23782.18316250689516555442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An introductory course to the Sanskrit language is now available by anonymous ftp from ftp.nac.ac.za/wikner/ It is a 155 page 600-dpi Postscript file suitable for double-sided printing on a4 or letter size paper. ( The a4paper version prints happily on an HPLJ4+ with duplex option; the adjusted margins for the letter paper version are estimates only -- perhaps someone will inform me of errors? ) To give an idea of what is covered in this course, an ASCII version of the Preface and Contents pages are appended below. BEWARE: there is a very thin piece of wire to South Africa, and it is stretched rather taut, so the best time to ftp would be Sunday morning local time (GMT+2:00). The files are: sktintro.ps600-a4paper-june96 (9206k) sktintro.ps600-a4paper-june96-zip (980k) - remember to set TYPE to BINARY sktintro.ps600-letter-june96 (9207k) sktintro.ps600-letter-june96-zip (981k) - remember to set TYPE to BINARY Enjoy! Charles Wikner. wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za 27-June-1996 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PREFACE This course of fifteen lessons is intended to lift the English-speaking student who knows nothing of Sanskrit, to the level where he can intelligently apply Monier-Williams' dictionary(1) and the Dhaatu-Paa.tha(2) to the study of the scriptures. The first five lessons cover the pronunciation of the basic Sanskrit alphabet, together with its written form in both Devanaagarii and transliterated Roman: flash cards are included as an aid. The notes on pronunciation are largely descriptive, based on mouth position and effort, with similar English (Received Pronunciation) sounds offered where possible. The next four lessons describe vowel embellishments to the consonants, the principles of conjunct consonants, and additions to and variations in the Devanaagarii alphabet. Lessons ten and eleven present sandhi in grid form and explain their principles in sound. The next three lessons penetrate Monier-Williams' dictionary through its four levels of alphabetical order, and suggest strategies for finding difficult words. The last lesson shows the extraction of the artha from the Dhaatu-Paa.tha, and the application of this and the dictionary to the study of the scriptures. In addition to the primary course, the first eleven lessons include a `B' section which introduces the student to the principles of sentence structure in this fully inflected language. Six declension paradigms and class-1 conjugation in the present tense are used with a minimal vocabulary of nineteen words. In the `B' part of lessons ten and eleven the principles of compound words are introduced. The course aims at a practical _understanding_ of the basic principles, at getting a `feel' for the language, and not a learning of rules by rote. To this end, each lesson concludes with exercises for the student to put that understanding into practice: answers to the exercises are presented in an appendix. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The pronunciation offered in these lessons is optimised for the English-speaking student to _understand_ the underlying principles of sandhi (sound changes). There are several variations in the pronunciation of some of the Sanskrit sounds, that have been handed down over generations. None of these traditions are wrong, although this may confuse the mind trained to think in terms of opposites, of right and wrong. Consider the English spoken in Britain and America for example: they are certainly different, but neither is wrong. Where there is a variation in the form of a character these lessons standardize on the form that is most commonly used in currently available printed editions of the Bhagavad Giitaa and Upani.sads. The common variations are illustrated in the ninth lesson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In the English-speaking world there is currently little appreciation of the value of studying formal grammar: as a result it has become unpopular, and many schools have ceased to teach it. In view of this situation, an appendix of basic English grammatical terms is included. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (1) Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary is currently published by Motilal Banarsidass in India and Oxford University Press in England: although the two are printed from the same plates, the latter is far superior in the quality of printing, paper, and binding -- and this is reflected in its higher price. (2) The edition of the Dhaatu-Paa.tha referred to in these notes is that edited by J.L.Shastri and published by Motilal Banarsidass: it is a small book and quite inexpensive. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CONTENTS Preface .................................................................... iii Contents ................................................................... v Invocation ................................................................. ix LESSON 1 ................................................................... 1 A.1. Vowel Measures B.1. The Concept of Dhaatu A.2. Sanskrit Pronunciation B.2. Introduction to Verbs A.3. The Three Primary Vowels: a i u B.3. Exercises A.4. The Other Simple Vowels: .r .l B.4. Flash Cards A.5. The Compound Vowels: e ai o au A.6. Summary of All Vowels A.7. The Sixteen "Sakti: a.m a.h A.8. Practicing the Alphabet LESSON 2 ................................................................... 13 A.1. The Five Mouth Positions B.1. More on Verbs A.2. The Twenty-Five Stops: ka to ma B.2. Exercises A.3. Pronunciation of the Stops A.4. Devanaagarii Alphabet LESSON 3 ................................................................... 21 A.1. The Four Semi-Vowels: ya ra la va B.1. More on Verbs A.2. The Three Sibilants: "sa .sa sa B.2. Introduction to nouns A.3. The Final Consonant: ha B.3. Exercises A.4. Summary of the Consonants A.5. The Alphabetical Order A.6. Devanaagarii Alphabet LESSON 4 ................................................................... 31 A.1. Devanaagarii Alphabet B.1. Summary of Verbs B.2. More on Noun Cases B.3. Exercises LESSON 5 ................................................................... 37 A.1. Devanaagarii Alphabet B.1. More on Noun Cases B.2. Exercises LESSON 6 ................................................................... 45 A.1. Vowels after Consonants B.1. Sentence Structure: English and Sanskrit A.2. History of Vowel Embellishment B.2. Noun Gender B.3. Summary of Case Information B.4. Exercises LESSON 7 ................................................................... 53 A.1. Halanta Consonants B.1. Verbal Prefixes A.2. Conjunct Consonants B.2. Exercises A.3. Special Conjuncts k.sa and j~na A.4. Pronunciation of k.sa A.5. Pronunciation of j~na A.6. List of Conjunct Consonants LESSON 8 ................................................................... 63 A.1. Special Symbols B.1. More Noun Declensions A.2. Savar.na B.2. Adjectives A.3. Nasal Substitution for Anusvaara B.3. Adverbs A.4. Devanaagarii Numerals B.4. Vocabulary Summary B.5. Exercises LESSON 9 ................................................................... 71 A.1. Vowels Accents B.1. Types of Words A.2. Variations in Devanaagarii Alphabet B.2. Use of iti A.3. Variations in Sa.myoga B.3. Exercises A.4. Revision LESSON 10 .................................................................. 77 A.1. Introduction to Sandhi B.1. Introduction to Compound Words A.2. Gu.na and V.rddhi B.2. Joining Words in Writing A.3. Vowel Sandhi B.3. Exercises A.4. Exceptions to Vowel Sandhi A.5. Samprasaara.na LESSON 11 .................................................................. 85 A.1. Visarga Sandhi B.1. Dvandva Samaasa A.2. Consonant Sandhi Grid B.2. Tatpuru.sa Samaasa A.3. Internal Sandhi B.3. Avyayiibhaava Samaasa B.4. Bahuvriihi Samaasa B.5. Exercises LESSON 12 .................................................................. 91 1. Monier-Williams Dictionary 2. Alphabet and Transliteration 3. Fundamental Structure 4. Page Heading Words 5. Dictionary Practice LESSON 13 .................................................................. 97 1. Words beginning with Sa- 2. Structure of Devanaagarii level 3. Structure within non-Dhaatu entries 4. References and Abbreviations 5. Special Symbols 6. Significance of Hyphen and Caret Symbols 7. Supplement to the Dictionary 8. Dictionary Practice LESSON 14 .................................................................. 103 1. Tracing a Word to its Dhaatu 2. Dhaatu Entry Information 3. Numbered Entries 4. Misleading Words 5. Difficult Words 6. Dictionary Practice LESSON 15 .................................................................. 109 1. Introduction to Dhaatu-Paa.tha 2. The Contents Page 3. The Text Body 4. The Index 5. Dhaatu Spelling Changes 6. Illustrations of Dhaatu-Paa.tha Use 7. Study of the Scriptures 8. Study Practice Appendix 1: Suggestions for Further Study .................................. 121 Appendix 2: Answers to Exercises ........................................... 123 Appendix 3: English Grammatical Terms ...................................... 135 Sanskrit Glossary and Index ................................................ 141 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 27 18:37:18 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 18:37:18 +0000 Subject: Images of a manuscript of the Yogasutras Message-ID: <161227025181.23782.16210961575894991494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have added to the digital images available from the INDOLOGY web page. Having put the Isa Upanisad up before, I have now added a manuscript of the Yogasutras of Patanjali, taken from the Wellcome Institute Library. See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under "Digital art...". I am not satisfied with the quality of the images, and when I have time I shall re-scan the manuscript. Sorry folks! But something is better than nothing. This process of digitization is a learning experience for me. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri Jun 28 03:24:14 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 23:24:14 -0400 Subject: maatarizva Message-ID: <161227025187.23782.4896184706524933113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. S. Kalyanaraman wonders: "How fascinating! Kittel's Kannada lexicon gives this lexical entry: maatarizva = wind. Is it a far cry from agni to wind?" Not really. Macdonell [Vedic Mythology, pp.71f.] explains it all rather nicely. He knows the Rgveda very well. One might also consult the Rgveda. [Didn't I mention that I was referring to the RV?...] Sincerely, George Thompson From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Fri Jun 28 08:00:47 1996 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 08:00:47 +0000 Subject: The word BATUKA Message-ID: <161227025184.23782.18007116304600627626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be grateful if someone could help me with the etymology and exact meaning of the word BATUKA which has the dictionary meaning " temple priest". The only related word I know is BATU that is used for a boy about to have his threading ceremony. Thank you in advance. Jayant ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jun 28 08:22:01 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 08:22:01 +0000 Subject: maatarizva Message-ID: <161227025186.23782.3336851641932349356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > While in general I respect and know how to distinguish historical, well-founded, etymologies from ad hoc folk etymologies, now and then it appears that the way to distinguish them is this: if it comes from a professor of philology from a distinguished European university it is etymology; if it comes from a native speaker it is folk etymology. The name mAtari'zvan illustrates this nicely. >George Thompson How fascinating! Kittel's Kannada lexicon gives this lexical entry: maatarizva = wind. Is it a far cry from agni to wind? Regards, Kalyanaraman. From apandey at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 28 17:43:57 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 10:43:57 -0700 Subject: Saamaveda electronic text transcriptions. Message-ID: <161227025193.23782.3875438328208991462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! I have begun input of transliterated text of the saamaveda into an electronic format. Thus far, I have completed the aagneya and indra kaaNDa-s and thought that before I proceed any further, I ought to ask if there already exists an electronic text of the saamaveda or if one is being worked on, so as to prevent any duplicative efforts. If anyone is aware of any existing electronic copy of the saamaveda or if it is being currently worked upon, please let me know. Thank you. Anshuman Pandey University of Washington From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Jun 28 18:56:51 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:56:51 -0500 Subject: Encoding Vedic Bib, and TEI Standards Message-ID: <161227025198.23782.2441441926078852455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the process of decoding the 1971 Lehmann/Ananthanarayana Rig Veda, I received from Dr. Lehmann's assistant the following confirmation of their code which is both simple in an inuitive sense, and easy on the fingers. It could/should also alleviate conversion confusions mentioned below. Their code: & Aufrecht's grave accent : length - voicelessness (visarga) = palatalization ! accent (udatta) + anusva:ra 8 syllabic 1 \ retroflection ) aspiration > velarization ' avagraha 9 syllabic r The diacritics follow the Roman letter to which they are related. I hope this is of assistance in the work. In addition, as a general point, Text Encoding Initiative standards (ISO 8859) of SGML headers would be a great asset to all e-text encoders-- AND prospective users. The absence of such a standard in 1971 left us spending more time than shoudl have been necessary tracking down information about the RV in question. Dominik kindly forwarded the following to me for learning more about TEI: ----------- The web home page is . There are good tutorials etc. ----------- Respectfully, John Robert Gardner University of Iowa On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Harry Falk wrote: > > >good idea to initiate a Vedic bibliography - but using the Harvard- > >Kyoto transcription would result in a nightmare. Any z in a personal > >name or non-Skt term would be converted to /s, Jolly would end up > >as ~nolly etc. The usual aa>A conversion gives similar trouble if > >you think of Staal or Fujii. It might be advisible to use the Vienna > >codes or create something new, but any standard which does not lend > >itself to automatic conversion should be banished. > > I agree with Harry Falk. May I suggest the Tuebingen-Zuerich format? It > allows for easy conversion, and interference with other graphic conventions > of the kind Hary mentions should be minimal. In the TZ-format, the Sanskrit > alfabeth looks like this: > > a -a i -i u -u .r -r .l -l e ai o au .m .h k kh g gh ;n c ch j jh ?n .t .th > d .dh .n t th d dh n p ph b bh m y v r l . /s s h > > (Hope I remembered it all!) The advantage with this transliteration method > is that you're never in trouble when you want to change the graphic > appearance of the text. Conversion is easy. My own experience with this > kind of transliteration has been quite excellent. > > By the way, Harry, what are the Vienna codes? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, > N-0674 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > > E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no > > > From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Fri Jun 28 20:48:02 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 16:48:02 -0400 Subject: Harvard-Kyoto Message-ID: <161227025200.23782.3258120673056389177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not have the explanations with me here, but some time ago I received an e-text from Hamburg with entirely unambiguous codes which allowed one to write German, Skt., and seemingly anything. Does someone have that material at hand? It was not quite readable on the screen, but could be converted with, as I recall, zero ambiguity. JAS From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Jun 28 15:11:45 1996 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:11:45 +0200 Subject: Harvard-Kyoto Message-ID: <161227025189.23782.1535235480180296409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > If it worked, and if the > Harvard-Kyoto transcription is adequate [and if a set of standard keywords > can be settled upon], perhaps I can venture into the beginnings of a Vedic > bibliography for Indology. > good idea to initiate a Vedic bibliography - but using the Harvard- Kyoto transcription would result in a nightmare. Any z in a personal name or non-Skt term would be converted to /s, Jolly would end up as ~nolly etc. The usual aa>A conversion gives similar trouble if you think of Staal or Fujii. It might be advisible to use the Vienna codes or create something new, but any standard which does not lend itself to automatic conversion should be banished. Harry From Sfauthor at aol.com Fri Jun 28 21:35:32 1996 From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:35:32 -0400 Subject: Again with the Jews? Message-ID: <161227025202.23782.5978528114894498028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: The 'New Jews' of Britain, a new article on the same topic of Asians supplanting Jews (but on this side of the puddle) can be found at Slate, the Kinsley/Microsoft online magazine. Try: http://www.slate.com or http://www.slate.com/Feature1/Current/Feature1.asp From L.M.Fosse at internet.no Fri Jun 28 07:39:16 1996 From: L.M.Fosse at internet.no (L.M.Fosse at internet.no) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 17:39:16 +1000 Subject: Harvard-Kyoto Message-ID: <161227025191.23782.6030040840429563743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Falk wrote: >good idea to initiate a Vedic bibliography - but using the Harvard- >Kyoto transcription would result in a nightmare. Any z in a personal >name or non-Skt term would be converted to /s, Jolly would end up >as ~nolly etc. The usual aa>A conversion gives similar trouble if >you think of Staal or Fujii. It might be advisible to use the Vienna >codes or create something new, but any standard which does not lend >itself to automatic conversion should be banished. I agree with Harry Falk. May I suggest the Tuebingen-Zuerich format? It allows for easy conversion, and interference with other graphic conventions of the kind Hary mentions should be minimal. In the TZ-format, the Sanskrit alfabeth looks like this: a -a i -i u -u .r -r .l -l e ai o au .m .h k kh g gh ;n c ch j jh ?n .t .th .d .dh .n t th d dh n p ph b bh m y v r l . /s s h (Hope I remembered it all!) The advantage with this transliteration method is that you're never in trouble when you want to change the graphic appearance of the text. Conversion is easy. My own experience with this kind of transliteration has been quite excellent. By the way, Harry, what are the Vienna codes? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudveien 76, Leil. 114, N-0674 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 E-mail: L.M.Fosse at internet.no From thompson at handel.jlc.net Fri Jun 28 23:32:47 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 19:32:47 -0400 Subject: Harvard-Kyoto Message-ID: <161227025203.23782.6846392308271757605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry that a personal note to Dominik has slipped through my fingers onto the entire List, creating this stir about codes & transcription systems, problems about which I am utterly naive. After Jonathan Silk's proposal of a few weeks ago, I suggested to Dominik that I would be willing to help by taking on a Vedic portion of an Indology bibliography. But I did not know how complicated the task might be, and had asked for his advice. I still don't know how complicated that task might be. If there is an accessible convention agreeable to all, and which even I can learn, then the offer of helping with a Vedic bibliography still stands. But if things get complicated even a little I will soon be over my head and unable to help. I have no opinion about the various proposed conventions, and need to be guided if I am going to be of any use at all. Sincerely, George Thompson From kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Fri Jun 28 18:42:02 1996 From: kellner at ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 03:42:02 +0900 Subject: Harvard-Kyoto Message-ID: <161227025195.23782.5072391754670533640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:22 1996-06-28 BST, Harry Falk wrote: >good idea to initiate a Vedic bibliography - but using the Harvard- >Kyoto transcription would result in a nightmare. Any z in a personal >name or non-Skt term would be converted to /s, Jolly would end up >as ~nolly etc. The usual aa>A conversion gives similar trouble if >you think of Staal or Fujii. It might be advisible to use the Vienna >codes or create something new, but any standard which does not lend >itself to automatic conversion should be banished. Any convention which uses either interpunctional marks (e.g. Tuebingen-Zuerich) or commonly used Latin characters to encode diacritics will face problems in case of automatic conversion, as soon as other languages than Sanskrit are used in the file. As I have done before, I would like to jump in and bluntly advertise the "@-convention", which we use in Hiroshima, and which quite a few other people in Japan (or Vienna) use for transmitting their e-texts. Basically, every diacritical character is replaced by the base-letter, followed by an ad-mark (e.g. long a = a@; cerebral t=t@). There are a few exceptions where ambiguity occurs (e.g. with the n's and the s's or the vocalic r's, where other base-letters have to be used). We plan to use this convention in our - currently under construction - Web-page, where we will - amongst other things - collect fragments from pra at ma@n at a-texts. Admittedly, it's not easy to read and takes a little time to get used to (as does Devanagari:)) , but when texts are supposed to be down-loaded and used in different environments, it is definitely the best I have seen so far. Birgit Kellner Department for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Sat Jun 29 16:22:36 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 18:22:36 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit to French dictionary available Message-ID: <161227025205.23782.9215815311826442688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am releasing on Internet the first edition of my sanskrit-french dictionary. It consists of 2 postscript files of 1.5Mb each, accessed easily through my Web page http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/indo.html It is a small dictionary (~8000 entries) which aims at being a small indology glossary. All comments and corrections welcome, of course. Gerard Huet