From mrabe at artic.edu Thu Feb 1 11:45:14 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 06:45:14 -0500 Subject: siva vinadhara Message-ID: <161227022507.23782.4541032711229328249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For starters you might try: Hawley, John Stratton, "The Boston Vinadhara Siva," Journal of the Oriental Institute [Baroda] 33:1-2 (1983): 141-46 [I don't recall how far back his own discussion traces the form; There are a few agamic sources cited in Gopinatha Rao, T. A.. Elements of Hindu Iconography. 2 vols. 1914. reprint ed. Varanasi: Indological Book House, 1971, vol. II.2, pp. 289-292. I appreciate hearing back if you find still better sources. Thanks, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University School of the Art Institute of Chicago >Hi > >can anybody help me with the name of a(n English language preferably) text >dealing with the iconology and signifiacnace of Siva as vinadhara? > >Or even any ideas as to when this image first emerges. The earliest >sculpture that I can find is from Asanpat, about 5th century. > >Thanks in advance > >J.Napier >School of Music and Music Education >University of NSW >Australia From tony_stewart at ncsu.edu Thu Feb 1 13:41:04 1996 From: tony_stewart at ncsu.edu (tony_stewart at ncsu.edu) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit Query Message-ID: <161227022508.23782.3264371225032253949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: Can anyone tell me where I might be able to place students in a summer intensive Sanskrit program? I have three definites, possibly five, who are desperate for Sanskrit. Thanks, Tony Tony K. Stewart Director Triangle South Asia Consortium Box 8101 North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 USA ph. 919/515-6335; fax. 919/515-7856; e-mail >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 01 96 Feb EST 17:06:00 Date: 01 Feb 96 17:06:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: re: NIA languages Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In Anantadasa's Bhaktiratnavali of c. AD 1600 the author uses the term Prakrit to refer to the language he uses. Yet this work is now referred to as a Hindi work. There is also a manuscript in this library that refers in its text to its language as Sauraseni bhasa, a term I take as referring to a kind of Prakrit. But this work is in a sort of Marathi. There are also countless instances of 'Hindi' works referring to their language as simply bhasa. My question is: do list members know of interesting instances of NIA language works referring to the language they are composed/spoken in . For instance, does anyone know what is the earliest text that refers to itself as being in Brajabhasa? Dr Peter G. Friedlander Cataloguer of Hindi and Panjabi Manuscripts Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road London NW1 2BN England e-mail: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Thu Feb 1 01:16:17 1996 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 11:16:17 +1000 Subject: siva vinadhara Message-ID: <161227022501.23782.12806055307674673696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi can anybody help me with the name of a(n English language preferably) text dealing with the iconology and signifiacnace of Siva as vinadhara? Or even any ideas as to when this image first emerges. The earliest sculpture that I can find is from Asanpat, about 5th century. Thanks in advance J.Napier School of Music and Music Education University of NSW Australia From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Thu Feb 1 12:36:32 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 12:36:32 +0000 Subject: Tillemans address Message-ID: <161227022505.23782.15503898169087717885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello - I am a graduate student in Buddhist Studies at Columbia >University in New York. Does anyone at your location know the e-mail address >for Prof. Tom Tillemans (Section de Langues et Civilzations Orientales, >Universite de Lausanne, Switzerland)? > >Thankyou very much! > > - Tom Yarnall (ty37 at columbia.edu) > > You can write to Prof. Tillemans at the following address: Prof. Tom Tillemans Section des langues et civilisations orientales Faculte des lettres Universite de Lausanne CH-1015 Ph.: (41.21) 692-3003 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 e-mail: Tillemans at orient.unil.ch Note that if you want to phone him personnally at his office, he is there only on wednesday and thursday. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Feb 1 10:41:59 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 12:41:59 +0200 Subject: Sandhi-conventions for critical editions Message-ID: <161227022503.23782.3010312312092276074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >I would like to have as many opinions as possible on Sandhi-conventions in >critical editions of Sanskrit texts, especially on what to do with nasals etc. I have the same kind of problems with my critical edition of the Praatimokshasuutra where my policy is to follow the style of the manuscripts (from Central Asia) as closely as possible. But since the scribes are not consistent in their use of sandhi, I think it is best to standardize the orthography and to follow Panini's rules as far as sandhi is concerned. This makes it also easier for the user of your edition. You may describe the actual practice of the scribes in your introduction or you can give the writings of the manuscripts in the critical apparatus. See e.g. Franz Bernhard's edition of the Udaanavarga, Vol.I, Goettingen 1965, where the orthographical variants are kept apart from the others (and more important ones) as a category of its own. But this procedure takes a lot of space, of course. Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From rdsaran at umich.edu Thu Feb 1 18:18:28 1996 From: rdsaran at umich.edu (Richard D. Saran) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 13:18:28 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit Query Message-ID: <161227022512.23782.4697883930869592410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Contact the Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, 130 Lane Hall, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1290 (Fax 313-936-2948 or e-mail CSSEAS at umich.edu) re: Summer Language Institute Courses in South Asian Languages (including Sanskrit) On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Tony K. Stewart wrote: > Dear Colleagues: > > Can anyone tell me where I might be able to place students in a summer > intensive Sanskrit program? I have three definites, possibly five, who are > desperate for Sanskrit. > > Thanks, > > Tony > > > Tony K. Stewart > Director > Triangle South Asia Consortium > Box 8101 > North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 USA > ph. 919/515-6335; fax. 919/515-7856; e-mail > > > > From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Feb 1 19:00:41 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 14:00:41 -0500 Subject: NIA languages Message-ID: <161227022514.23782.8937321010490673483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 13th century Marathi work called Jnaaneshvarii by Jnaaneshvara uses the words "marhaaTaa bola" and "deshii" to refer to Marathi. So does the Marathi work titled Vivekasindhu by Mukundaraaja dated 1188 A.D. For further info, see my book: Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India, An Historical Reconstruction, Karoma Publishers, Ann Arbor, 1979, pp. 69ff. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 1 Feb 1996 P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk wrote: > In Anantadasa's Bhaktiratnavali of c. AD 1600 the author uses the term > Prakrit to refer to the language he uses. Yet this work is now referred to > as a Hindi work. > There is also a manuscript in this library that refers in its text to its > language as Sauraseni bhasa, a term I take as referring to a kind of > Prakrit. But this work is in a sort of Marathi. > There are also countless instances of 'Hindi' works referring to their > language as simply bhasa. > My question is: do list members know of interesting instances of NIA > language works referring to the language they are composed/spoken in . > For instance, does anyone know what is the earliest text that refers to > itself as being in Brajabhasa? > Dr Peter G. Friedlander > Cataloguer of Hindi and Panjabi Manuscripts > Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine > 183 Euston Road > London NW1 2BN > England > e-mail: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk > > From vanderk at husc.harvard.edu Thu Feb 1 20:08:39 1996 From: vanderk at husc.harvard.edu (Leonard Van Der Kuijp) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 15:08:39 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit Query Message-ID: <161227022516.23782.5516039269447192310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think S. Insler at Yale is looking for budding summer school Sanskritists. Leonard vd K On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Tony K. Stewart wrote: > Dear Colleagues: > > Can anyone tell me where I might be able to place students in a summer > intensive Sanskrit program? I have three definites, possibly five, who are > desperate for Sanskrit. > > Thanks, > > Tony > > > Tony K. Stewart > Director > Triangle South Asia Consortium > Box 8101 > North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 USA > ph. 919/515-6335; fax. 919/515-7856; e-mail > > > From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Thu Feb 1 22:25:57 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 17:25:57 -0500 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Harvard Message-ID: <161227022518.23782.14951041067910155515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Today, "Tony K. Stewart" wrote: Summer Sanskrit Query Can anyone tell me where I might be able to place students in a summer intensive Sanskrit program? I have three definites, possibly five, who are desperate for Sanskrit. ------------------------------------------------------- Well, I had been planning to post the following. Here it goes: Subject: Summer Sanskrit at Harvard Like last year, I got several inquiries regarding our offering of Introductory Sanskrit this summer, -- taught here since 1988. I repeat the most important items for those interested to join us. Last summer's course (10 "takers" from the mid-west to the south-east) was very enjoyable, indeed the best I have had here. Actually, we -- some of the Summer 95 class-- are thinking to have a 2nd year level course added this year -- Interested persons please contact me! SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. (approx. dates: June 23 - August 10; exam period Aug. 12-16) Instructor: Michael Witzel This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. Fees: Application feee (nonrefundable $35) Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 2,650 (approx.) Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American carrier) On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: $ 2,175 (Housing deposit $460) Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) through c. June 7. Late registration c. June 8-June 30 ($50 late fee). Catalogues/Information from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone 617- 495 4024 (general information) 617 495 0519 (24 hour line for catalogues) On-line catalogue: gopher.harvard.edu via Telnet: courses.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) via modem: 617 496 8500, at the access 3> prompt, choose option 4: vine/course catalogs and RETURN at the login: prompt, type courses and RETURN NOTE the above $ amounts are from last year. They go up a bit each year. Registration date is approximate, too. More news to follow once the catalogue is out. Good luck! Michael Witzel From ibric at sri.lanka.net Thu Feb 1 22:53:00 1996 From: ibric at sri.lanka.net (ibric at sri.lanka.net) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 22:53:00 +0000 Subject: 19th century Pali scholar Message-ID: <161227022510.23782.10598670001182059990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends , Reference your inquiry , ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To: Wujastyk Dr Dominik > >I'm trying to identify the author of a letter in a little collection >currently being catalogued. The date is 1881, place of address Colombo and >the signature looks like "W. Sulehuti"; a later owner of the letter has >commented underneath "Buddhist monk, best Pali scholar in Ceylon". It would >be nice to be sure that I've read the signature correctly - does that name >or a variant thereof ring any bells with you . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is probably Waskaduwe Subhuti who was personally known to Late Professor T . W . Rhys - Davids while he was serving in Sri Lanka as a colonial officer of the British Raj . I recollect seeing a note in a PTS Journal of the 19th Century referring to Waskaduwe Subhuti but cannot quote the year offhand . I could locate it and send it along later . Regards Bhikkhu Dhammavihari <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< This message was sent to indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk by oversight and C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk ( Chris Wooff ) was kind enough to send us a message asking us to repost it for others on the Indology list . <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ibric at sri.lanka.net International Bhuddhist Research & Information Center. From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Feb 2 10:43:04 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 10:43:04 +0000 Subject: Microfilming palm leaf mss. Message-ID: <161227022520.23782.18398027063017297036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One more question about microfilming of mss.: How do you handle *incised* south Indian palm leaf mss.? They can be a real problem, especially if the writing does not come out because they have not be treated with lemon grass oil etc. From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Fri Feb 2 18:43:58 1996 From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 10:43:58 -0800 Subject: NIA languages Message-ID: <161227022526.23782.12544727741373353256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Avadhi premakhyan Mrigavati, by Qutban, written in 1503, refers to its language as "desi" newly invented from "sastriya" words. The poet describes the story of Mrigavati and the Prince being culled from a "Hindavi " source, subsequently translated into "Turki" and then told by himself with fresh meanings. See the edition by Mataprasad Gupta (Agra, 1968), verses 11 and 426. Aditya Behl Assistant Professor of Hindi and Urdu Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California at Berkeley From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Fri Feb 2 12:10:55 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 12:10:55 +0000 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022522.23782.10658499803952311444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:08:25 +0000 I received the following message from an anonymous sender (I think it was posted to the Indology forum but as the return address was "???@???" and there was nothing else in the header I can't be sure): >How do you handle *incised* south Indian palm leaf mss.? >They can be a real problem, especially if the writing does not >come out because they have not be treated with lemon grass oil etc. This subject interests me very much also. I know south indian mss were incised first and inked afterwards, but I have never heard they were treated with "lemon grass oil" and I don't know what's under the "etc.". If anybody has any precisions or comments about this I'll be delighted to read them. Thank you in advance. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Feb 2 19:36:06 1996 From: vasur at CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU (Vasu Renganathan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 14:36:06 -0500 Subject: A question on Tamil dialects In-Reply-To: <93d9fa5.34d60b17@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227035356.23782.4332841154684331069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vai (East Tanjore forms) /vaint-/ & /vait-/ imperative form: vayyi present form: vaiRaan (vaikiRaan) past form: vanjaan and vaisaan (vanjaan is used mostly in harijan and padayaacci dialects. vaisaan is used in other dialects.) The spoken forms vanjaan and vaisaan are derived from two different underlying forms such as /vaintaan/ and /vaitaan/. The derivations vanjaan and vaisaan are obtained as a result of palatalization of nt and t respectively by the preceding palatal vowel i In general, lower caste dialects accept palatalized forms while the upper caste dialects use non-palatalized forms wherever possible. eecu (eesin- corresponding past form) is also another form used in Tanjore district especially in lower caste dialects. tiTTu is a high variety form used more commonly in formal contexts than in casual speech. Vasu. At 01:06 PM 2/2/98 EST, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >I am interested in the colloquial forms of the Tamil word "vai" meaning "to >scold". In Madurai dialect, when one wants to say he scolded one would say >"vaJjAn2". (The other word used is "tiTTin2An2".) I have heard a person with >East Tanjore ancestry using the form "vassAn2". The interesting thing is I >distinctly hear two "s" es as opposed to "vasAn2" with a single "s". Have >anybody else heard this form from in East Tanjore or any other dialect? > >Regards > >S. Palaniappan > > From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Feb 2 23:06:44 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 15:06:44 -0800 Subject: Summer Skt, summer mythology Message-ID: <161227022530.23782.9268981028063602798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Your assistance in giving publicity to the following information on relevant lists other than INDOLOGY and Buddhist Academic Discussion Forum will be appreciated. Summer, term 2 courses at the University of British Columbia: Sanskrit 102 (Introductory Sanskrit) and Asia 350 (Mythological Literature of South Asia in Translation) SANSKRIT 102: A guaranteed Summer Sanskrit course (that is, a course not dependent on attracting the enrolment that Summer school directors consider necessary to make the course pay for itself) will be offered at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada during the 6 weeks between 2 July and 10 August. The proposed fee (subject to Board of Governors approval) is Canadian $459 for Canadian citizens and permanent residents of Canada and 2.5 times this amount for international students (C$1147.50 = approximately US $823 at today's rate). For the benefit of those who do not know where Vancouver is or who think that all of Canada is 'that extremely cold country to the north, I may add that Vancouver is situated in the province of British Columbia right on the shore of the Pacific Ocean and is well known for its temperate climate as well as year-round natural natural beauty. Between the beginning of June and end of September it is especially a pleasant place to live. The official designation of the course is "Introductory Sanskrit" OR "Sanskrit 102 (951)." [The last number is attached when the course is given outside the regular Winter Session period.] It will count for 6 credits at the University of British Columbia. It will meet for three hours every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday from 9:A.M. to noon between 2 July - 10 August. Wednesdays have been left free for students to be able to review and consolidate what they learn on the other days. Depending on student interest and convenience, afternoon sessions for informal language practice may also be arranged. Although the course is not officially designated as an intensive course, prospective students should note that language courses by their very nature demand a consistently high level of commitment, especially when the material that is usually covered over two terms or semesters is taught in a span of six weeks. The description of Sanskrit 102 is as follows: "The aim is to acquaint the student with the most common vocabulary and the most important grammatical features of Classical Sanskrit. Any student who completes the course should be able to proceed to reading simple works in Classical and Epic Sanskrit. Use of language cassettes is part of the instructional method. Students interested in linguistics, Classics, medieval and modern Indian languages, philosophies, religions and the history of ancient and medieval India will especially benefit from this course. No prerequisite." Instructor: Professor Ashok Aklujkar (that is, myself, the author of this notice) Textbook: Ashok Aklujkar's Sanskrit: an Easy Introduction to an Enchanting Language (4 physical volumes including grammar, workbook, and reader, plus 5 ninety-minute cassettes). All available, inclusive of postage, for C$70.00 for buyers in Canada and for US$70.00 for buyers elsewhere, from Svadhyaya Publications, 5346 Opal Place, Richmond, B.C., Canada V7C 5B4. Tel. (country code 1, area code 604) 274-5353. Students may purchase copies of the text from the instructor after they arrive in Vancouver, but those who intend to begin preparation ahead of the course commencement, may wish to order copies earlier. For Summer Session calendar and application forms, write to the Registrar's Office, Rm. 2016 - 1874 East Mall, Brock Hall, U.B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z1. International students should apply for admission by 28 February. Applications from others must be received by 15 April. The documentation deadline for international students is 15 April. For all other students it is 15 June. Telereg will be open for registration on 15 March. Accommodation: Write to the Student Housing and Conferences Department, U.B.C., 1874 East Mall, Brock Hall, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V^T 1Z1. Tel. (1-604)-822-2811. Although the course is as certain as it can be at present, out-of-town students should contact Asian Studies (tel.: 1-604-822-3881, fax: 1-604-822-8937, e-mail: astudies at unixg.ubc.ca) or Extra-Sessional Studies (tel.: 1-604-822-2657) to check the up-to-date status before travelling to Vancouver. ------------------------------- Asian Studies 350 (951), "Mythological Literature of South Asia in Translation, will be taught by Dr. Vidyut Aklujkar. The dates, days and other particulars of practical importance are the same as given above, except that the course will meet in the afternoons and is subject to enrollment. From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Feb 2 20:25:22 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: Conference on Philosophy Message-ID: <161227022528.23782.15726364985448651548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, Sitting here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, this identification of the "West" makes perfect sense to me. Don't you see? Why else would we in Michigan be in the "mid-west"? You should not be shocked with this. The USA is not only the "west", but it is also the "world". That is why we name one of the sports series played only here in the USA as the "world series". Get used to it, because as one of our veteran broadcasters used to say: "and, that is the way it is". All the best, Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Sitting here in London, I am amused by this identification of the "West" > with the USA. Are things really that far gone elsewhere? > > > The Society for Indian Philosophy and Religion will conduct a > > four-day conference, "Relativism: Science, Religion and > > Philosophy", to be held in Calcutta, India on August 1-4, 1997. > .. > > This conference represents an opportunity for scholars in the > > U.S. and India to explore together a set of issues that are of > > some significance to both communities. It will examine ways in > > which concerns that are currently widespread in the West over > > relativism and scientific knowledge may be anticipated in > .. > > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Feb 2 17:27:31 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 17:27:31 +0000 Subject: Conference on Philosophy Message-ID: <161227022524.23782.14288940103752888695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sitting here in London, I am amused by this identification of the "West" with the USA. Are things really that far gone elsewhere? > The Society for Indian Philosophy and Religion will conduct a > four-day conference, "Relativism: Science, Religion and > Philosophy", to be held in Calcutta, India on August 1-4, 1997. ... > This conference represents an opportunity for scholars in the > U.S. and India to explore together a set of issues that are of > some significance to both communities. It will examine ways in > which concerns that are currently widespread in the West over > relativism and scientific knowledge may be anticipated in ... Dominik Wujastyk From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 3 14:27:53 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 08:27:53 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022535.23782.5001856297402949873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dan White , In your request for films on Holi festival you say " She wishes to do a comparative - ritual study of festivals that both have a sacred theme and involve the character of social chaos ( at least temporarily)" Your choice of describing festivals like Holy as a social chaos in part is very stupid. As you are white as your name is you are bread and brought up on vulgar racist ideas saying that non- white social functions are chaos . You should watch your words which you use in public to describe others . Holy and other fuctions of India are not chaotic. Yours sincerely M.Rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 3 14:39:59 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 08:39:59 -0600 Subject: Conference on Philosophy Message-ID: <161227022538.23782.7581425033433559382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Chandan Chakrabarthy , I saw an announcement for a conference in philosophy in Calcutta in Aug 1996. I am interesrted in it . Kindly inform me on the phone number to contact you ( if possible both home and work number).My home number is (615) 356 8617 and my work number is ( 615) 963 5860. You may contact me by phone or e- mail.I appreciate your contacting me. Thanks, Yours sincerely, M.Rajagopalanz From fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Sat Feb 3 18:28:57 1996 From: fsmith at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (F. Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 12:28:57 -0600 Subject: Skt dictionaries on-line Message-ID: <161227022541.23782.975129114238241876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just been away for a year, and off-line. But I have a fuzzy recollection that somebody was putting, or had put, Monier-Williams' Skt-Eng dict. on-line or on CD Rom. Is this kalpanaa, or did somebody really do it? If not, does someone out there know of any Skt-Eng dictionaries on line? Thanks Fred Smith School of Religion / Dept. of Asian Lang. & Lit. Univ. of Iowa From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Sat Feb 3 13:23:06 1996 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 13:23:06 +0000 Subject: Conference on Philosophy Message-ID: <161227022533.23782.16864356600027276467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The text quoted by DW makes no 'identification' of the West with the US, but only of the US as Western - n'est-ce pas? peter moore From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Sat Feb 3 19:32:02 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 14:32:02 -0500 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022546.23782.9385030750249063963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With appreciation for the lively exchange to which M. Rajagopalan and B. Narahari Rao have contributed, may I add that I am helped to learn what I need to know (and, at times, what I know already) when I read the requests and responses of others on this wide-ranging list? I write from the standpoint of an outsider who suffers cultural and linguistic limitations, but nevertheless deeply appreciates Holi, and was given opportunities to participate from time to time in northern India over the last 26 years. After joining in, I looked (and felt) less pale than before -- which was to the general benefit of everyone. Even so, there is a good deal that I do not know about the significance of this set of festivals, nor about others throughout the yearly cycle. So I am grateful to M. Rajagopalan for giving strong emphasis to the fact that participants in any festival-cycle, even one so lively and equalizing as Holi, may be sensitive about how these traditional activities may be understood and described by outsiders -- whether or not they have participated. On the other hand, what M. Rajagopalan may not yet know and might find interesting, is that there is a tradition of academic study and discussion of Holi that has gone on for some years outside as well as inside India. Within the context of this discussion of Holi, the word 'chaos' is used as a neutral-descriptive term (as B. Narahari Rao noted). To some extent the term also takes on a quite positive connotation as a complement to 'order' or 'hierarchy' or 'authority' in the discussion. The word 'chaos' lately has taken on a positive connotation from another area of study, too. In the philosophy of science, "chaos theory" has attracted a lot of interest. In short, there may have been some misunderstanding about the intent of the request -- growing from the technical use of the term 'chaos' in discussion of festivals such as Holi. No disrespect is intended by such usage, as sociologists and anthropologists of Indian descent who are at work in India right now can attest. B. Narahari Rao no doubt is correct when he encourages all of us to be respectful, patient, and courteous in these exchanges. One also should be brief, which I was not, and so I thank you for your patience. Thanks to both M. Rajagopalan and B. Narahari Rao who exemplify the very spirit of Holi in action in this forum! Gene Thursby, University of Florida On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Narahari Rao wrote: > Rajagopalan wrote > >Dear Dan White , > >In your request for films on Holi festival you say " She wishes to do a > >comparative - ritual study of festivals that both have a sacred theme > >and involve the character of social chaos ( at least temporarily)" > > Your choice of describing festivals like Holy as a social chaos in > part is very stupid. > >As you are white as your name is you are bread and brought up on vulgar > >racist ideas saying that non- white social functions are chaos . You should > >watch your words which you use in public to describe others . Holy and > other fuctions of India are not chaotic. Yours sincerely M.Rajagopalan > > > > I think this reaction is uncalled for. One may use the word, 'chaos' without > normative implications. What is meant is merely that the usual norms > followed in a milieu are suspended during the Holy festival. One may have an > alternative perception of what Holy festival is, and may want to contest a > particular description. But this can be done without calling names. > > Dr. B. Narahari Rao > F.R. 5.1. Philosophie > Unversitaet des Saarlandes, > Postfach 15 11 50, > D-66041 Saarbr?cken From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sun Feb 4 00:36:34 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 18:36:34 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022548.23782.4027638397603825839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rao, Asking for opinins is one thing and insulting is another . If you do not feel insu insulted when someone calls you chaotic you have a problem . To describe a society as chaotic in its festivals is uncalled for. M.Rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sun Feb 4 01:00:37 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 19:00:37 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022550.23782.1202162290669420351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear F.R.5.1. Philosophie, The word chaotic theory is a part of mathematics . i teach mathematics . So i say that. Chaos in social terms is not complimentary . Many non-complimentary terms terms have beenforced on Hindus and their culture in the past fifty years . ( one such word is Idols , when refering to hindu gods in temples ). many indian scholars on indology have used such terms about hindu culture. That is unfortunate that Indians did that .Such words which are insulting should not be used in describing a culture unless proved .Real scholarship consists of knowing such difference .When such bad words have been used a wrong description is already being tried to be established . that is not scientific. scientific.If such a traditon to use insulting words on a culture was mistakenly established it is time to get it corrected by real scholars. M.Rajagopalan From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de Sat Feb 3 18:35:06 1996 From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 19:35:06 +0100 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022544.23782.12365026655217368806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajagopalan wrote >Dear Dan White , >In your request for films on Holi festival you say " She wishes to do a >comparative - ritual study of festivals that both have a sacred theme >and involve the character of social chaos ( at least temporarily)" > Your choice of describing festivals like Holy as a social chaos in part is very stupid. >As you are white as your name is you are bread and brought up on vulgar >racist ideas saying that non- white social functions are chaos . You should >watch your words which you use in public to describe others . Holy and other fuctions of India are not chaotic. Yours sincerely M.Rajagopalan > I think this reaction is uncalled for. One may use the word, 'chaos' without normative implications. What is meant is merely that the usual norms followed in a milieu are suspended during the Holy festival. One may have an alternative perception of what Holy festival is, and may want to contest a particular description. But this can be done without calling names. Dr. B. Narahari Rao F.R. 5.1. Philosophie Unversitaet des Saarlandes, Postfach 15 11 50, D-66041 Saarbr?cken From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sun Feb 4 02:11:44 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 20:11:44 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi & Occidentalism Message-ID: <161227022553.23782.9642041227548825218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The subaltern treatment of Holi may be of interest to Mr. Rajagopalan. In his book, "Elementary Aspects of Peasant Insurgency in Colonial India" Ranajit Guha who, as his name indicates is not as pale as double-roti-overly-bleached white bread , looks at the Holi festival as a time of role reversal in which societal norms are turned on end. ("Elementary Aspects of Peasant Insurgency in Colonial India" -pg. 33.) And, Re: The Conference on Philosophy and the reference to "Western" as synonymous with "American"-- Perhaps the tendency for non-westerners to essentialize occidental culture as "American" is a bit of reverse orientalism. . . reified Occidentalism? Best, Yvette Rosser P.S. It **SNOWED** it Austin, Texas this morning . . . nows that's a role reversal! From soumitra at ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 4 11:28:32 1996 From: soumitra at ix.netcom.com (soumitra at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 96 03:28:32 -0800 Subject: Film on Holi & Occidentalism Message-ID: <161227022558.23782.12931025515568556321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You wrote: > >The subaltern treatment of Holi may be of interest to Mr. Rajagopalan. In >his book, "Elementary Aspects of Peasant Insurgency in Colonial India" >Ranajit Guha who, as his name indicates is not as pale as >double-roti-overly-bleached white bread , looks at the Holi festival as >a time of role reversal in which societal norms are turned on end. >("Elementary Aspects of Peasant Insurgency in Colonial India" -pg. 33.) This was the most weak part of the famous book .This comment was a direct folloup of the CArnival theory of the west. Ranajit Guha's experience of Holi was in Bengal where "Dol" has got many differences with the North Indian Hooli. Now some fundamental questions about Holi's role-reversal. Is there really a role-reversal in North Indian Hindu culture? Are the lower caste people allowed to apply abirs and gulals on the faces of the upper-castes. |Are the females allowed to go out and apply abirs and gulals to others or strangers . To quite an extent the society was not so strigent about pre-puberty or teenager girls , but for girls attaining the age of marriage and for married women ,are they allowed to play holi as they wish? Some might say all these strictures came as a reaction to the Muslim Invasion. Though partly it could be true what about any licence to the sub-alterns to attain the equalness with the upper-castes? Parallelism is an integral part of colonial-vstiges . Though the principal consideration of RAnajit Guha is just that , it is obvious here at least he were frantically looking for something to extrapolate the Carnival theory and replace the German context with an Indian parallel. > >And, Re: >The Conference on Philosophy and the reference to "Western" as synonymous >with "American"-- > >Perhaps the tendency for non-westerners to essentialize occidental culture >as "American" is a bit of reverse orientalism. . . reified Occidentalism? > >Best, >Yvette Rosser > >P.S. It **SNOWED** it Austin, Texas this morning . . . nows that's a role >reversal! > > > > From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 4 08:32:17 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 96 08:32:17 +0000 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022555.23782.15826826159558652725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion thread on Holi is lively, but boisterous, true to the spirit of the ancient festival. I want to add some socio-linguistic thoughts on the subject to enliven the discussion further. The festival is an ancient pan-Indian phenomenon, though, during the historical periods, it had been localized and practised as a social event in north India. Dravidian tongues have some words which evoke the significance of Holi as a spring festival or worship of new sprouts of paddy. kORa koDa = to sprout (of paddy) in Kui language. In Gondi, kORsAnA, kOrsAnA = to sprout, grow (of trees, plants); koRta is the month of bhadrA (Aug-Sep) when new paddy is worshipped. The practice of squirting red is evoked in: OkaLi = red liquid used at temple festival or marriage (Kannada. Tulu) The cognate etyma in indo-aryan are: horA = the rising of a zodiac sign (Skt.); spring festival = horI (Punjabi, Sindhi), hori (Nepali); huLi (Oriya), hoLI (Gujarati, Marathi). Specifically, in Awadhi, horI connotes the pile of wood for burning at the spring festival. Burning up the old as a token of renewal is a phenomenon noticed also in the solsticial festival of bhogi, lori or sankrAnti. In KoDagu, poli = to increase (crop, cattle) or interest paid in kind (esp. on paddy); in Tulu, this connotes abundance; in Tamil, to bloom; pol = to excel (Kannada). These etyma are a magnificent testimony to the evolution and elaboration of semantics (enlarging upon the traces of a root phoneme) blossoming out of the observed stem sememe: sprouting: pol- hoL. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman Indus-Sarasvati Research Centre, Madras, India mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in From mail07464 at pop.net Sun Feb 4 18:15:14 1996 From: mail07464 at pop.net (mail07464 at pop.net) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 96 10:15:14 -0800 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022561.23782.5292063780618517088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to post the following. Please excuse any cross postings. I am a professional geologist (BS, MS) with over 20 years of experience analyzing geological data. However, ever since serving in the Peace Corps in India 25 years ago, my dream has always been to engage in archaeology of South Asia, specifically looking for traces of the more ancient civilizations there. Basically, I am writing to ask for help. I need information regarding graduate archaeology programs in America that might have some interest in South Asia and that would also be sympathetic to my situation. Important professional responsiblities would inevitably take some of my time, however I could devote a good amount of time to my studies and research. Moreover, I would prefer a program that would allow me to do a considerable part of my work out in the field in South Asia. I will be very grateful for any information about possible programs or scholars whom I might contact. Please reply to me directly at Thanks so much. With best wishes, Bob Cohen From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sun Feb 4 12:17:24 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 96 13:17:24 +0100 Subject: Hindi/Urdu teaching Message-ID: <161227022560.23782.9975529028617924989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague: Thank you for your recent response to our request about the teaching of Hindi and Urdu at your university, or at other universities in your country. I am pleased to say that we received quick and detailed replies to our query from nearly all the universities we had time to ask. (In only four and a half days, we did not have time to contact all the institutions in which Hindi and/or Urdu are taught, or to contact every country; moreover, in a few locations, people were still away on winter holidays.) With your help, we compiled a list of over 35 universities in Europe, the U.S.A., Canada and Australia, in which there is instruction in Hindi and/or Urdu. We found: 42 regular positions in Hindi 17 regular positions in Urdu 12 combined Hindi-Urdu positions 690 students of Hindi 162 students of Urdu We are grateful for your cooperation. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Ruth Schmidt Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From WHARMAN at DEPAUW.EDU Mon Feb 5 00:44:53 1996 From: WHARMAN at DEPAUW.EDU (WILLIAM HARMAN) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 96 19:44:53 -0500 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022564.23782.15792299639594845530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may be helpful to point out that a social reversion to chaos is understood in the history of religions as a perfectly normal, natural event, one that renews and reaffirms the structures and strictures of social interaction during the remainder of the year. Such festivities have not, in the history of religions, implied that participants are in any way inferior or abnormal. Mardi Gras in New Orleans and the great annual festival of Rio de Janero two such examples, as is Holi. Why a person should take offense at the notion of chaos is something that might deserve a closer look: chaos theory has gained a well-earned reputation in both the sociological and scientific communities. If Mr. Rajagopalan has difficulty with the notion of chaos, he should perhaps deal with that in a conversation group more concerned with psychological issues. W. Harman From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 5 07:27:26 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 07:27:26 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022566.23782.3154352325531305846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bob Cohen and indology members, The Indus Sarasvati Research Centre needs the help of geologists in analyzing geological data along the dried bed of Sarasvati river from the Siwalik ranges thru Patiala, Kalibangan, Banawali, Guneriwala, Dholavira to Rann of Kutch. As you may know, Guneriwala is an industrial site circa 2500 B.C. as large as Mohenjodaro and unearthed only in 1992! Satellite image analysis shows the river's paleochannels as wide as 10 miles in some stretches. there are hundreds of sites on the river bed and along the banks of the river. The key work is to date the drying up of the river and link with archaeological and linguistic evidences. It would appear that the vedic and indus site civilizations were coexisting for nearly a millennium and the migration tracts from the indus-sarasvati doab seem to have been eastward to the ganga-yamuna doab and along the arabian sea coast to lothal and down to Daimabad on the banks of Pravara, an estuary of Godavari river in South India. Dr. Kalyanaraman, Indus Sarasvati Research Centre, 20 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004 Tel. 91-44-4935871; 4936288; fax. 4996380; email: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in >I have been asked to post the following. Please excuse any cross postings. > > > I am a professional geologist (BS, MS) with over 20 years of experience >analyzing geological data. However, ever since serving in the Peace Corps in >India 25 years ago, my dream has always been to engage in archaeology of >South Asia, specifically looking for traces of the more ancient civilizations >there. > Basically, I am writing to ask for help. I need information regarding >graduate archaeology programs in America that might have some interest in >South Asia and that would also be sympathetic to my situation. Important >professional responsiblities would inevitably take some of my time, however I >could devote a good amount of time to my studies and research. Moreover, I >would >prefer a program that would allow me to do a considerable part of my work >out in the field in South Asia. > I will be very grateful for any information about possible programs or >scholars whom I might contact. Please reply to me directly at > Thanks so much. > With best wishes, > Bob Cohen > > > > > > From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Mon Feb 5 08:21:43 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:21:43 +0000 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022568.23782.8436007521535785202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch wrote: > On Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:08:25 +0000 I received the following message from an > anonymous sender (I think it was posted to the Indology forum but as the > return address was "???@???" and there was nothing else in the header I > can't be sure): > > >How do you handle *incised* south Indian palm leaf mss.? > > >They can be a real problem, especially if the writing does not > >come out because they have not be treated with lemon grass oil etc. > > This subject interests me very much also. I know south indian mss were > incised first and inked afterwards, but I have never heard they were > treated with "lemon grass oil" and I don't know what's under the "etc.". > If anybody has any precisions or comments about this I'll be delighted to > read them. > Thank you in advance. > > > Francois Voegeli > Fac. des lettres > Section de langues et civilisations orientales > Universite de Lausanne > BFSH 2 > CH-1015 > > Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 > Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 > E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch > > > Dear colleague, I don't know whether all members of the list received my message from *anonymus*. If so, please let me know. I have not experienced that problem before. As to lemon grass oil, it is the most common - and perhaps the most adequate - way of *inking* South Indian palm leaf mss. If you enter the well-maintained ms-collections of the south, you immediately recognized its pleasant smell. There is at least one other, cheaper concoction around - I forgot what exactly it consists of - the smell of which I would associate with a garage rather than a library. Read mss. treated like that for a couple of hours, and you will probably feel the intensive wish of being somewhere else. In terms of readability, I cannot see a lot of difference between lemon grass oil and the other stuff. As to microfilming, I'm not sure. This leads me back to my question: Does anyone have suggestions for microfilming this type of material? Can the often poor result be enhanced by filters, special light or other tricks of the trade? Regards Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de From Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE Mon Feb 5 08:57:23 1996 From: Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 09:57:23 +0100 Subject: Skt dictionaries on-line Message-ID: <161227022570.23782.11660844488521734104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I have just been away for a year, and off-line. But I have a fuzzy > recollection that somebody was putting, or had put, Monier-Williams' > Skt-Eng dict. on-line or on CD Rom. Is this kalpanaa, or did somebody > really do it? If not, does someone out there know of any Skt-Eng > dictionaries on line? > Thanks > Fred Smith > School of Religion / Dept. of Asian Lang. & Lit. > Univ. of Iowa > > I am working on a digital version of Monier-Williams and Boehtlingk (p). A preliminary online version of MW will be hopefully released this summer. -Thomas Malten Institut fuer Indologie & Tamilistik, Pohligstr. 1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel. 49-0221-470-5340, Fax 49-0221-470-5151, email th.malten at uni-koeln.de gopher linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de; ftp://ftp.rrz.uni-koeln.de/institute/indologie http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.html From zysk at is2.NYU.EDU Mon Feb 5 15:25:24 1996 From: zysk at is2.NYU.EDU (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 10:25:24 -0500 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022577.23782.16468524045090348611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Francois Voegeli wrote: > Thank you very much for your prompt answer. > In fact I have never been (for the moment) in a well-maintained > ms-collection of the south but I would further like to know if you or > anybody else on the network have witnessed the whole process of making a > south-indian ms, from incising to inking, and if you could describe it more > precisely or if you know any reference on that matter. > As for the "anonymousness" of your message it could be that you sent it > using the mail function of Netscape with which such things sometimes > happen. > > Thank you for everything and best regards. > > Francois Voegeli > Fac. des lettres > Section de langues et civilisations orientales > Universite de Lausanne > BFSH 2 > CH-1015 > > Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 > Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 > E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch > There is a fairly informative work that describes with illustrations the techniques for inscribing palm-leaf manuscripts in Orissa--a tradition that is still alive in Orissa. It may be helpful. Subhas Pani, ed., Illustrated Palmleaf Manuscripts of Orissa. A selection from the Orissa State Museum. Bhubaneswar: Dr. H.C. Das, Superintendent, Orissa State Museum, 1984. K. G. Zysk New York University From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Feb 5 15:59:30 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 10:59:30 -0500 Subject: Sandhi conventions Message-ID: <161227022581.23782.1120928308261262065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When standardzing sandhi conventions, it may be worthwhile to record, perhaps even follow the main manuscripts, when one of the several options allowed by Panini/vartikakara are generally preferred. It seems that "deferring to common practice", with the attendant elimination of indications about dialectical variations would lead to wrong impression by those who consider the printed editions to be the only "scientific" evidence for historical purposes. For example, Keith records that many manuscripts of Aitreya Aranyaka do not convert h to a stop after a stop in external sandhi: ie., tat+hi becomes tad{}hi, not taddhi. Now, Panini calls the change optional (anyatarasyaam?). I am not sure that taddhi must be made compulsory (I am not sure what Pratishakhyas say. For Vedic works, that should take precedence). Of course, the standard transliteration scheme is incapable of handling this: But that is the fault of the transliteration scheme. I have to confess that I have an axe to grind. I grew up saying brahma.rSi (with vocalic r). I still find brahmarSi grating. Of course, both are accetable in Indian tradition. However, I would be upset if some "scientific" grammarian were to argue that brahma.rSi is >always< wrong, and set about correcting such "spelling errors". Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu Mon Feb 5 17:51:24 1996 From: jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu (jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 12:51:24 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022583.23782.6799755369738499586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hardly realized that such an innocuous request for a visual view of Holi would precipitate such vituperative comments from Rajagopalanm at Harpo.TNState.edu. As a frequent visitor to India over the past twenty-five years and one who enjoys many friendships there, I am amazed that he/she latched on my last name with such unpleasant results. I also regret that he/she chose to share his/her lack of kindness with members of the list. Since she/he too lives in the southern U. S., surely by this time she/he has learned a much more kindly way of easing the harsh blows of language, e.g., by following one's criticism with the phrase "Bless his/her heart" as in "This person, unfortunately, is unable to understand the discursive and objective language of the academic study of religion, bless his/her heart." On the other hand, I appreciate that his/her comments did create some excellent discussion on the Holi festival, in which I have had the pleasure of participating and of which I have been a sometimes surprised and "chaotic" subject in India--with a resulting sense of joy and understanding and appreciation. Many thanks to colleagues B. Narahari Rao, Gene Thursby, Yvette Rosser and William Harman and Fred Smith(for the film suggestion)! From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Mon Feb 5 13:09:10 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 13:09:10 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022573.23782.12785584777844783810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Monday 5.2.1996, Dr Kalyanaraman wrote: > > As you may know, Guneriwala is an industrial site circa 2500 >B.C. as large as Mohenjodaro and unearthed only in 1992! Satellite image >analysis shows the river's paleochannels as wide as 10 miles in some >stretches. there are hundreds of sites on the river bed and along the banks >of the river. The key work is to date the drying up of the river and link >with archaeological and linguistic evidences. It would appear that the vedic >and indus site civilizations were coexisting for nearly a millennium and the >migration tracts from the indus-sarasvati doab seem to have been eastward to >the ganga-yamuna doab and along the arabian sea coast to lothal and down to >Daimabad on the banks of Pravara, an estuary of Godavari river in South India. > "As you may know": in fact I don't and I am very interested by that subject also. I have never heard of that site and if it is really as big and as old as Mohenjodaro, precise data should be made available to the scientific community as soon as possible. Does Dr. Kalyanaraman or anybody else has any more precise information about that site (an excavation report, for example, will be fine) and can tell me where I can get it. Thanks in advance. FV Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Mon Feb 5 13:24:51 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 13:24:51 +0000 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022575.23782.14773908379264578935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to my query Reinhold Gruenendahl wrote: >Dear colleague, >I don't know whether all members of the list received my message from >*anonymus*. If so, please let me know. I have not experienced that >problem before. > >As to lemon grass oil, it is the most common - and perhaps the most >adequate - way of *inking* South Indian palm leaf mss. If you >enter the well-maintained ms-collections of the south, you >immediately recognized its pleasant smell. > >There is at least one other, cheaper concoction around - I forgot >what exactly it consists of - the smell of which I would associate >with a garage rather than a library. Read mss. treated like that for >a couple of hours, and you will probably feel the intensive wish of >being somewhere else. > >In terms of readability, I cannot see a lot of difference between >lemon grass oil and the other stuff. As to microfilming, I'm not sure. > >This leads me back to my question: Does anyone have suggestions for >microfilming this type of material? Can the often poor result be >enhanced by filters, special light or other tricks of the trade? > Thank you very much for your prompt answer. In fact I have never been (for the moment) in a well-maintained ms-collection of the south but I would further like to know if you or anybody else on the network have witnessed the whole process of making a south-indian ms, from incising to inking, and if you could describe it more precisely or if you know any reference on that matter. As for the "anonymousness" of your message it could be that you sent it using the mail function of Netscape with which such things sometimes happen. Thank you for everything and best regards. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch >?From C.Hilton at wellcome.ac.uk 05 96 Feb EST 14:48:00 Date: 05 Feb 96 14:48:00 EST From: C.Hilton at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: W. Subhuti Reply-To: C.Hilton at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII My colleague Dominik Wujastyk recently posted a query for me regarding the identification of a 19th century Pali scholar and monk: with the help of Indology members this figure was identified as Waskaduwe Subhuti. My thanks to those who got in touch with me. The letter by Subhuti which raised the issue is one of a small group of letters (varying in author, date and subject) generated in 19th-century Ceylon, which are now in the catalogue of the Wellcome Institute Western Manuscripts Department as MS 7140. Chris Hilton Wellcome Institute From osharma at umich.edu Mon Feb 5 22:32:03 1996 From: osharma at umich.edu (Om Sharma) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 14:32:03 -0800 Subject: Anuparna Rao Address Message-ID: <161227022606.23782.2726499840788716886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen: As I intimated to you in another response of a similar note I have never heard of Anuparna Rao. Om University of Michigan Library On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Does anyone have an address for Anuparna Rao at the U. Michigan? > > > Allen Thrasher > From athr at loc.gov Mon Feb 5 20:37:42 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 15:37:42 -0500 Subject: The Raj as welfare Message-ID: <161227022586.23782.12748110730472853607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me who it was, and where, that called the British Indian empire "a vast system of outdoor relief for the landed classes?" Also, is this the precise wording? Thanks, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Mon Feb 5 20:48:15 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 15:48:15 -0500 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022579.23782.11959355835049489251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Oriental Institute library in Mysore uses an oil of unknown composition to lubricate its palm-leaf MSS. Unknown, that is, to the library authorities. A Mysore family has supplied the oil for many generations, and everyone assumes that it is the right stuff. It is probably made of Neem oil, a common source of oil for MS treatment, which is also an important insecticide. The libraries of IAS and GOML in Madras use Neem oil. Trivandrum also used to, but has recently (last two years) taken to adding liberal quantities of turpentine. This is justified as being an insecticide. But the staff who have to do the work hate it, finding the fumes unpleasant and intoxicating, and I would have thought it introduced a serious fire risk. I am trying -- very diplomatically -- to suggest changes to this practice in Trivandrum. It has been my experience that all these libraries don't think twice about applying lamp-black to make incised MSS legible. To them it is a simple matter of making the MS readable. I have a great deal of sympathy with this point of view. But this is an issue which exercises Western librarians and conservationists, since it introduces a change in the MS that is probably irreversible (the reversibility of any change made to an object being conserved is a canonical rule of contemporary conservation practice). It is a pleasing sight to watch a staff member of one of these libraries painting MS leaves with oil, and then bundling them up into wonderfully unctuous packages for shelving. Very messy and appealing. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk From magier at columbia.edu Mon Feb 5 21:59:33 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 16:59:33 -0500 Subject: Event announcement Message-ID: <161227022588.23782.6232854756275297541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of The South Asia Gopher (gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia/Groups/ Conferences) Please contact event organizers directly for further information. Please do not send such queries to The South Asia Gopher. Thank you. David Magier magier at columbia.edu ================================== Asia Society in cooperation with the Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center at Columbia University presents ASIAN MEDICINE GOES MAINSTREAM IN THE WEST A three-part lecture series exploring the growing use of Asian medicine in Western healthcare *Wednesday, February 21 - 6:30pm New Age Ayurveda or What Happens to Indian Medicine When it Comes to America? by Kenneth G. Zysk, NYU and Columbia's Hinduja Center, disucsses the adaptation of traditional Indian medical practices in the West. *Wednesday, February 28 - 6:30pm Integrating Chinese Medicine into a Conventional Medical Practice by Woodson C. Merrell, MD, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, examines how acupuncture, herbs, homeopathy, and nutrition are currently being used in conventional medical practice. *Wednesday, March 6 - 6:30pm Compassion is Our Business? A Tibetan Buddhist Medical Perspective on Modern Halthcare by Eliot Tokar, Asian medicine practitioner, explores how a healthcare system could be created that emphasizes freedom of choice based on Tibetan Buddhist and other ancient medical practices. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Asia Society Individual Lectures: + Where Asia and America Meet $7 members; $10 nonmembers + 40th Anniversary 1956-1996 Series: + $19 members; $27 nonmembers + 725 Park Avenue Student and group rates available + (at 70th Street) + New York City FOR TICKETS and INFORMATION, call + 212-517-ASIA + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From athr at loc.gov Mon Feb 5 22:12:03 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 17:12:03 -0500 Subject: Anuparna Rao Address Message-ID: <161227022590.23782.9804606377469613156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an address for Anuparna Rao at the U. Michigan? Allen Thrasher From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de Mon Feb 5 22:02:06 1996 From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 23:02:06 +0100 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022595.23782.12109957999410929553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rajgopal, you wrote >Dear Rao, >.. If you do not feel insu >insulted when someone calls you chaotic you have a problem . To describe a society as >chaotic in its festivals is uncalled for. > Dear Rajagopalan., About a particular theoretical use of the term 'chaotic' others have elaborated. So I don't think insult is involved. On the other hand, calling someone ?racist? in an academic forum, unless there are very strong reasons for doing it, is an insult. This, even in such cases where you may be justified in conjecturing that a partiular theoretical use of a term is traceable to historically inherited prejudices. Having said that, I share some of the sentiments you express in the following. >Dear F.R.5.1. Philosophie, >. Many non-complimentary terms >terms have beenforced on Hindus and their culture in the past fifty years . >( one such word is Idols , when refering to hindu gods in temples ). >many indian scholars on indology have used such terms about hindu culture. I believe indeed that use of such terms as ?idols?, ?Hindu?, ?worship? etc. to refer to the practices in India are not theoretically neutral. However, I don't think it is right to trace them back to 'racism' or simple individual prejudices. Indology like any other discipline has a history. It came into being in the European intellectual tradition, and the controversy regarding pagan ?idolatry? versus Christian ?religion? are formative influences of this intellectual tradition. Indeed an examination of the various concepts used in Indology and their historical lineage is a worthwhile undertaking. Since Indology is a vast field, such an undertaking is not possible for an individual scholar to accomplish. I also believe that in such an undertaking an important role has to be assigned to counterposing theoretical assumptions and to the intuitions as well as hunches of persons from Indian background. But my hunches or intuitions are one thing, developing them into theoretical arguments is another. I believe sincerely that the reactions like that of yours do not aid the process of developing the Indian common sense intuitions into theoretical tools for studying Indian traditions. Dr. B. Narahari Rao F.R. 5.1. Philosophie Unversitaet des Saarlandes, Postfach 15 11 50, D-66041 Saarbr?cken From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 6 13:57:15 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 08:57:15 -0500 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022601.23782.10382953391576202671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Information about Ganweriwala (and about the other 4 great cities of the Indus civilization: M. H., Dholavira in Cutch (with the first giant size, though seal-like inscription! suggested reading 500 miles to Mohenjo Daro...) and about related questions) can be found in several archaeol. chapters (by Erdosy, Shaffer, Kenoyer, etc.) in:: George Erdosy, (ed) The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia. language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, Berlin/New York (de Gruyter), 1995 (released in Nov.). . From Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE Tue Feb 6 08:52:59 1996 From: Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 09:52:59 +0100 Subject: The Raj as welfare Message-ID: <161227022592.23782.651602373188231279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Can anyone tell me who it was, and where, that called the British Indian > empire "a vast system of outdoor relief for the landed classes?" > Also, is this the precise wording? > > Thanks, > > Allen W. Thrasher quoted in the first chapter of "Freedom at Midnight". Attributed to James Mill (History of British India). -Thomas Malten Institut fuer Indologie & Tamilistik, Pohligstr. 1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel. 49-0221-470-5340, Fax 49-0221-470-5151, email th.malten at uni-koeln.de gopher linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de; ftp://ftp.rrz.uni-koeln.de/institute/indologie http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.html From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 6 21:17:56 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 13:17:56 -0800 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022615.23782.2812944387561757516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not very indological, but the last time I looked, it still was William Wordsworth. Come to think of it, his descendent was an educator in Bombay in the 19th C. Frank Conlon On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Koenig-Bandini wrote: > Hi there! > > Does anybody know who wrote the poem >>Tintern Abbey< > Thanks for your help, > > Giovanni Bandini > > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Feb 6 21:21:31 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 13:21:31 -0800 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022613.23782.16918677518191163816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anybody know who wrote the poem >>Tintern Abbey< ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:23:17 +0100 From: (John Petersen) To: vyakaran at email.uni-kiel.de Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) Can anyone help this person out? It's from LINGUIST from this past week. Any suggestions can be sent to the person mentioned below. John > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 2) > Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 01:41:48 EST > From: HaseebC at aol.com > Subject: Urdu study in Pakistan? > > I'm trying to find a beginning/intermediate Urdu study program in Pakistan -- > preferably Lahore but maybe Islamabad. Any ideas? Or any ideas where to > search on Internet? Thanks for your help. - Chloe from HaseebC at aol.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Tue Feb 6 13:53:07 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 13:53:07 +0000 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022597.23782.14144125059462260771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: >It has been my experience that all these libraries don't think twice about >applying lamp-black to make incised MSS legible. To them it is a simple matter >of making the MS readable. I have a great deal of sympathy with this point of >view. This has been my experience too. >But this is an issue which exercises Western librarians and >conservationists, since it introduces a change in the MS that is probably >irreversible (the reversibility of any change made to an object being conserved >is a canonical rule of contemporary conservation practice). Has anybody looked into the question of the long-term effects of _not_ continuing traditional practices ? Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mrabe at artic.edu Tue Feb 6 19:06:02 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 14:06:02 -0500 Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022610.23782.11007614561364729648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> University of Callifornia, Berkeley, may still be running their Urdu language program in Lahore: BULPIP, may be the acronymn >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:23:17 +0100 >From: (John Petersen) >To: vyakaran at email.uni-kiel.de >Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) > >Can anyone help this person out? It's from LINGUIST from this past week. Any >suggestions can be sent to the person mentioned below. > >John > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> 2) >> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 01:41:48 EST >> From: HaseebC at aol.com >> Subject: Urdu study in Pakistan? >> >> I'm trying to find a beginning/intermediate Urdu study program in Pakistan -- >> preferably Lahore but maybe Islamabad. Any ideas? Or any ideas where to >> search on Internet? Thanks for your help. - Chloe from HaseebC at aol.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Tue Feb 6 14:53:31 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 14:53:31 +0000 Subject: South indian incised mss Message-ID: <161227022599.23782.7595077153764160969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >This leads me back to my question: Does anyone have suggestions for > >microfilming this type of material? Can the often poor result be > >enhanced by filters, special light or other tricks of the trade? > ....... I would further like to know if you or > anybody else on the network have witnessed the whole process of making a > south-indian ms, from incising to inking, and if you could describe it more > precisely or if you know any reference on that matter. A reference has already been supplied by somebody else. Among others, you can also refer to Losty: The art of the book in India. As to the process of writing, there may again be different ways of doing it. One way is to hold the leaf in one hand, fingers parallel to the leaf. The fingers below are the desk, so to speak, while the thumb presses the leaf gently against the fingers and at the same time provides the bottom line for writing. The front part of the iron stylus rests on the back of the thumb and its shaft is moved around. Sorry, I can't describe it any better. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de From magier at columbia.edu Tue Feb 6 21:14:43 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 16:14:43 -0500 Subject: [mrabe@artic.edu (Michael Rabe): Re: urdu in pakistan (fwd)] Message-ID: <161227022611.23782.17080183974342974140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The South Asia Gopher contains a subsection known as ILM: Inventory of Language Materials, which in turn contains a listing of all the known language-study programs for South Asian languages. I reproduce below the specific entry for the BULPIP program, which is located in Lahore. The ILM listings can be accessed directly at the following URL: gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia/ Teaching/ILM Let me know if you need more information about The South Asia Gopher itself. David Magier magier at columbia.edu The South Asia Gopher =========================================================== BERKELEY URDU LANGUAGE PROGRAM IN PAKISTAN Center for South Asia Studies, 201 Moses Hall #2310 Univ. of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-2310 Phone: 510-642-3608 Fax: 510-643-5793 Email: udrebba at uclink.berkeley.edu, csas at uclink.berkeley.edu *Languages: URDU. *Duration: 30 weeks of intensive language instruction in two fifteen-week terms (with a long winter break in Dec-Jan and a shorter break in the middle of the spring), from October through June. Applicants may apply for only one of the three terms, though this is not preferred. Instruction is provided by tutors arranged by the program. *Eligibility: US citizens or permanent residents may apply. FLAS fellowships may sometimes be used; inquire from the Program about other possible funding sources and arrangements. *Applications due: March 1st. A small program, flexibility, some travel within Pakistan. The chance to live with a family in Lahore while studying is an especially valuable part of the experience. Field research by participants is not permitted. "Plan A: Before beginning the program, applicants must have completed at least two years of Urdu and/or Hindi, or the equivalent, and should have a good knowledge of the Urdu script. Students having completed one year of Urdu and/or Hindi by June 1996 are eligible to apply if they intend to take an intensive second-year summer Urdu/Hindi course at the University of Washington, Seattle, or at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, during the summer of 1996. Plan B: Urdu language instruction will be offered to a limited number of U.S. scholars conducting research in Pakistan. We can accommodate all levels of ability; private tuition may be secured on a contingency basis." ================================================================ --------------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:37:50 GMT From: mrabe at artic.edu (Michael Rabe) To: Members of the list Subject: Re: urdu in pakistan (fwd) University of Callifornia, Berkeley, may still be running their Urdu language program in Lahore: BULPIP, may be the acronymn ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:23:17 +0100 >From: (John Petersen) >To: vyakaran at email.uni-kiel.de >Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) > >Can anyone help this person out? It's from LINGUIST from this past week. Any >suggestions can be sent to the person mentioned below. > >John > ------------------ >> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 01:41:48 EST >> From: HaseebC at aol.com >> Subject: Urdu study in Pakistan? >> >> I'm trying to find a beginning/intermediate Urdu study program in >> Pakistan -- >> preferably Lahore but maybe Islamabad. Any ideas? Or any ideas where to >> search on Internet? Thanks for your help. - Chloe from HaseebC at aol.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From athr at loc.gov Tue Feb 6 22:10:48 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 17:10:48 -0500 Subject: Kipling a Eurasian? And Kim? Message-ID: <161227022618.23782.4756304881970666335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Anglo-Indian lady I know maintains that Kipling was of partly Indian descent. Has anyone ever heard this, or any evidence thereof? This brings up another question. To my reading, the beginning of his _Kim_ is ambiguous on whether Kim's mother is Indian or European. Has anyone written on this or have any opinion on the matter. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de Tue Feb 6 18:40:00 1996 From: 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de (0622660198-0001 at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 19:40:00 +0100 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022608.23782.9252886615101338302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi there! Does anybody know who wrote the poem >>Tintern Abbey< Answer-- William Wordsworth. From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 7 08:54:21 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:54:21 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022622.23782.3593848576327212461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Witzel and Indology members, You may also be interested in reading my bibliographical essay posted earlier on indology newsgroup; it is related to the great Sarasvati river and will be available in the archives. Regards and best wishes to the students of civilizations who have a lot of 'digging' and geological/hydrological work to do in Guneriwala and other sites on this exciting adventure into our glorious past. I am presenting three papers in the World Sanskrit Conference: a) Sarasvati civilization, (2) Prakrt and Dravidian tongues and (3) Indus Script. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman > >Information about Ganweriwala (and about the other 4 great cities of the >Indus civilization: M. H., Dholavira in Cutch (with the first giant size, >though seal-like inscription! suggested reading 500 miles to Mohenjo >Daro...) and about related questions) can be found in several archaeol. >chapters (by Erdosy, Shaffer, Kenoyer, etc.) in:: > >George Erdosy, (ed) The Indo-Aryans of Ancient >South Asia. language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, Berlin/New York (de >Gruyter), 1995 (released in Nov.). > >Studies; ; the 2nd vol, a handbook of Pali Lit. by O. v. Hinueber is in >press>. > > > > > > > > > From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed Feb 7 16:08:53 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:08:53 -0600 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022628.23782.5436542473282486708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe it is William Wordsworth who wrote "Tintern Abbey". kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Koenig-Bandini wrote: > Hi there! > > Does anybody know who wrote the poem >>Tintern Abbey< > Thanks for your help, > > Giovanni Bandini > > From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Wed Feb 7 10:16:08 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:16:08 +0000 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227022626.23782.17160409099893030716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all the people on the list who answered my two recent queries. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Feb 7 09:56:44 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:56:44 +0100 Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022624.23782.5485572230271060001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi everybody, I have already replied to this query. Those interested in studying urdu in Pakistan may contact the Berkeley Urdu Language Program in Pakistan for more information: email: steve at violet.berkeley.edu (Steven M. Poulos) snail mail: Steven M. Poulos Center for South Asia Studies 201 Moses Hall University of California Berkeley, CA 94720 U.S.A. Best regards, Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From asalgia at students.uiuc.edu Wed Feb 7 19:18:58 1996 From: asalgia at students.uiuc.edu (Amardeep Salgia) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 13:18:58 -0600 Subject: Misconceptions of Jainism; the Jains of North America (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022634.23782.3458374920914348783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:10:46 -0600 (CST) From: Amardeep Salgia To: jain-list at wavefront.com Subject: Misconceptions of Jainism; the Jains of North America In response to the recent request for assistance in conducting a research project on the Jain society of the Chicago area, I forwarded the following essay to the individual involved in the study. The areas of interest were media coverage of the Jains and misconceptions of Jainism. The essay is an (unfinished and unedited) version of a 'foreword' to a compilation of academic and religious articles which I am working on with other members of the Jain group at the University of Illinois at Urbana- Champaign. In it, I deal directly with the some of the many misconceptions of Jainism that the past couple of centuries of (non-Jain) writings and perceptions have spawned. For the purpose of discussion and the promotion of seious educational endeavors of lasting consequence, I am submitting this 'foreword' to the list. -- Amar Salgia URH 224 Townsend 1010 West Illinois St. Urbana, IL 61801 (217) 332-4068 asalgia at uiuc.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOREWORD As ordained by Lord Mahavira, the twenty-fourth and last Tirthankara of the present era, the Jain Sangh, or Order, consists of four types of human beings: Sadhu, Sadhvi, Shravak, and Shravika (respectively, Jain Monks, Nuns, Male Householders and Female Householders). For well over two and a half millenia, this Order has remained more or less intact on the Indian subcontinent, where every one of the Tirthankaras were born. The Sadhus and Sadhvis, having renounced all ties to the material world, live in complete adhereance to the Five Mahavrats, or great vows. For the Shravaks and Shravikas, those Jains who live in society and who are therefore bound by material means, the Sadhus and Sadhvis are thus the spiritual and moral guides, and the holy examples of the ideal life. Metaphorically, the Sadhus and Sadhvis of the Jain Sangh are individually the embodiments of Jain philosophy, Right Conduct, detachment, and serenity. Their presence is essential to the survival and sustainance of any Jain community. Most of the Jains of North America are either Indian immigrants or their children. Since the former were born primarily into Western and Central Indian (Gujarati, Rajasthani, etc.) cultures, the religious traditions, beliefs and practices which today dominate the Jainism of the North American laity are marked by the influence of these cultures and practices. This cultural influence pervades the various rituals (e.g., arti, gheeboli, pujas, etc.), customs, and annual observances of the Jains of North America. Up to the present, the overriding direction undertaken by the Jain community has been one duplication of the lay Jain societies of Western and Central India, as evidenced through biases of language, ritual, and terminology. Among the second generation of Jains, there is a growing concern for the social and practical implications of Ahimsa. There has also been a significant interest among Jain youth for the future survival of Jainism in North American society. However, despite the efforts of a handful of dedicated individuals, there has been no significant emphasis on (1) the building of an educational infrastructure or (2) self-improvement through spirituality, philosophical learning, and the study of primary sources on Jainism (i.e., the Jain Scriptures). Instead, "Indianness" and Indian-American social concerns preoccupy the mind of the average Jain youth. This is understandable since, more than ever before, Jains are themselves making an effort to blur the differences between their religion and that of the Hindus (and other religious groups), usually with a very liberal understanding of Anekantavad as justification. Furthermore, Jains have been unwittingly attacking their own religion and way of life through their acceptance and regurgitation of the uninformed judgements and portrayals of non-Jain scholars, which are dealt with below. And, without the presence of Jain Sadhus and Sadhvis, who are uncompromising in living their holy vows, and who are not lax in the self-control and and detachment necessary for Final Liberation, the Jain society of North America - and of all the world - is, from an anthropological point of view, in a rather precarious position. Apart from the generational gaps, apathy, and ignorance that partially characterize the Jain community of North America, the youth must contend with things more threatening to the long-term survival and sustainance of the Jain community and way of life. An exhaustive exposition of these socio-religous factors, which seem to be inherent to being a religious minority in the West, ought to be left to Jain scholarship and anthopological investigation. One of them, however, was explained above and is the primary inspiration for compiling this book. Ever since the modern Western discovery of the Jains, Jainism's philosophy, spirituality, and moral doctrines has been subject to several well-circulated distortions and belittling portrayals. These are manifest in a number of contentions held by the non-Jain scholarly community which are enumerated below. Practically no effort has been made on the part of the world Jain community to educate itself regarding its own history and unique existence as a social entity. Until the present, the world Jain community, including that of North America, has been quite tolerant and accepting of such misguided evaluations of the Jain religion. Therein lies one threat to to the long-term survival and sustainance of the Jain community and way of life; for generations can pass with an ever-decreasing sense of social and religious identity, and an ever-increasing tendency towards dissolution into the larger society. These trends, among others, are already running rampant among the Jain communities of India. A vital part of the solution to their propogation is whole-hearted investment in and promotion of Jain scholarship, which this book is intended to help inspire in its readers. The Prevailing Contentions. From non-Jain academic and religious circles, a number of prevailing contentions and generalizations regarding the origins, sociology, philosophy, personages, and actual practice of Jainism do not, to varying degrees, correspond to reality. They conflict with the well-preserved Jain - and even Hindu - histories, philosophies, and traditions, as well as the socio-religious experience of the Jains themselves (which may be demonstrated by testimony). These assertions can be found written on the pages of most of the acclaimed works on Jainism authored by non-Jains since the late nineteenth century. Though disagreement among scholars is natural and often beneficial, the propounders of these postulates have effectively ignored the voluminous bodies of evidence to their contrary. The major views are the following (and can be found, almost verbatim, in most encyclopedias): 1. "Jainism is an offshoot of Brahmanism. Jain philosophy developed out of the Samkhya and Vedanta schools of Hindu philosophy, and the conduct and way of life of the Jain ascetics was derived from that of the Hindu Brahmins." 2. "Mahavira was the founder of Jainism. He was greatly influenced by the Upanishadic texts and the atmosphere of disdain towards the Brahmins, in which he grew up. Under such influences, he adopted the doctrine of 'non-injury' [Ahimsa]." 3. "Jainism is a heterodox 'sect' which arose with Buddhism and the Ajivika sect as a protest against Vedic ritualism and the caste system. Jainism, like its contemporary sect Buddhism, denies the authority of the Vedas and the Brahmanic social heirarchy. It was founded in the sixth century, B.C. as a manifestation of the 'intellectual ferment' of the world during that time." 4. "Jainism is a religion of the warrior caste [the Kshattriyas], and is the product of social tension that [supposedly] developed between the warrior caste and the priestly caste [the Brahmins] of ancient India." 5. "The Jain reverance for life has an animistic basis. Jain asceticism, like all forms of Indian asceticism, came about as a result of the environmental instability of the Indian subcontinent." 6. "The Jains are primarily merchants, bankers, and moneylenders, and form a small subcaste within the larger Hindu society." 7. "Jainism is atheistic. It negates the value of human existence." 8. "Jainism is a religion of extreme asceticism. It advocates committing suicide by starving oneself to death, and self-torture, as the holiest acts a Jain can perform." Some of these contentions were first enunciated by Western scholars who were (and, to a lesser extent, still are) accustomed to understanding civilizations in terms of empires, ethnic and social conflicts, and strictly dateable personages and events. Therefore, their treatment of India's history has, until relativly recently, been ridden with over-generalizations and arbitrary quantizations of artificially construed historical periods. (For example, the orientalist Max Muller produced the date of 1500 B.C. as the time of the composition of the first Vedic hymns by first assuming that the Vedas were completed by 500 B.C., the time of Gautama Buddha; then, considering the five parts of the Vedic literatures - the Brahmanas, Samhitas, etc. - he arbitrarily assigned exactly 200 years to each of the five. Then, making another assumption that the composition of these parts were confined to contiguous time periods, he added 500 + 5[200] = 1500 B.C. to obtain his dating of the Vedas. To this very day, Western scholars have anchored their scheme of Indias religious and cultural history around the same date of 1500 B.C.; and with linguistic arguments, the Sanskrit language has come to be regarded as having began at that time. Dating methods such as these, to which the Jain tradition has also been subjected, are riddled with biases and are therefore deplorable examples of counterproductive scholarship.) Yet, such contentions regarding Jainism have gone relatively unchallenged by the scholarly community at large. Each of them, however, can be found to be either inaccurate distortions or, at best, premature conclusions. Two General Approaches. Two general approaches to the study of Jainism and Jain society appear have been undertaken by non-Jain scholars. To Western scholars, the Jains have generally been seen as an oddity in their perceived framework of Indian civilization. The division between the monk/nuns and the laity, as well as the great fusion of theory and practice exemplified by the conduct of the monastic and lay communities, are ceaselessly characterized by some as having been born of primitive fears and taboos. Jain philosophy and cosmology, while incredibly accurate and estimable in the context of modern scientific thought, have received scant attention from Western Indologists. The philosophically based concepts of Ahimsa and Anekantavad, two central and unique components of Jain philosophy and conduct, are rarely given their due treatment. Rather, elements of the Jain world-view are excised from their orderly contexts, stripped of their practical implications to the life of the spiritual aspirant, and explained away with more denigrating characatures: "extreme asceticism", "hero-worship", "self-denial", "world-negation", etc., all somehow rooted in environmental impredictability. And some, like the explanation for dharma and adharma (the non-material media of motion and rest in Jain cosmology) as being philosophical analogues of a kind of primitive Indian superstition of good and bad "airs", are quite absurd. Other products of this approach are shown in contentions 4 through 8 in the above listing. In short, owing to the fact that the philosophy, social structure, and way of life for which Jainism has stood, as a whole, simply do not fit into the established Western scheme of Indology, the Jain philosophy, spirituality, and moral doctrines are, in the mind of many an Indologist, either non-entities, or, primitive anomalies born of unusual environmental circumstances. The other approach places emphasis on evaluating Jainism's origins and development before and during the lifetime of Mahavira. Regarding the Jain tradition, the central endeavor of many non-Jain scholars of Indian origin has been to trace its philosophy and doctrines back to Indian intellectual movements and Brahmanic sources. The resulting contentions appear in 1 through 4, above. While scholars taking this approach do tend to enter their treatment of Jainism with a mindset of high estimation of Jain philosophy, spirituality, and moral doctrines, they apparently encounter difficulty in perceiving in them any manner of originality. Though they may applaud Mahavira and the Jains as important players in the intellectual heritage of the subcontinent, they nevertheless style them as uplifted dissenters or disgruntled Hindus, not as members of an independent religious and cultural tradition (which, as earlier mentioned, is a view inconsistent with the Brahmanic literature). The chauvinistic undertones of such contentions may also contribute to grounds for their dismissal. These two trends in non-Jain pursuits in the study of the Jains and Jainism must be thoroughly understood by the lay Jain community in order for their effects on the Jains' perceptions of themselves to be apparent. This endeavor of Jain scholarship needs to be directed towards three salient goals: understanding Jain philosophy and the Jain way of life for what they truly are, and in the manner in which they were actually meant to be understood; examining how common perceptions of Jainism and the Jains have come to deviate so conspicuously from the actual Jainism of theory and practice; and making final evaluations of the resulting conclusions in order to fascilitate the easy affecting of change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Raphael Carter wrote: > Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:36:57 -0600 > To: jain-list at wavefront.com > From: cno690 at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Carmen Nobel) > > I'm a journalism graduate student at Northwestern. I'm in a religion > reporting class this quarter, and we're studying how and if the media in > Chicago cover different religions. I've been assigned to research and cover > Jainism in the Chicago area. If anyone knows of any Jain-related groups or > individuals in the Chicago area and can share that information with me, I > will be grateful. Also, I'm interested in common misconceptions about > Jainism and pressing issues that you might want the media to cover. (The > Pizza Hut issue, for example.) > > I'll appreciate any input. > > Thanks very much. > > -- > Carmen D. Nobel > Northwestern University From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Wed Feb 7 21:05:03 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 15:05:03 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022636.23782.14150848394959768488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear people , Chaos theory is a part of mathematics . Please note this fact . Do not try to link that with link that with the word " chaos ' used by indologists .They are two totally diffeent contexts . The mathematics " chaos' does not lend any honourable nature to the word Chaos used by Indologists. Some indologists use the word chaos without knowing that it has an offensive connotation against the society to which it refers . Perhaps such innocent indologists will correct themselves after being pointed out that that word was used by some missionaries with racist motives ( like Max muller) to to insult and denigrate Hinduism and other non-white cultures. But some determined racist indologists keep hammering on using that word and try to get respecta- bility for that word by going out of context and keep using that insulting word to describe hinduism in a wrong way . Real scholars of Indology should watch for this and should not represent a society in a wrong way ( even by innocence ) when they want to be scientific. M.Rajagopalanm From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Wed Feb 7 21:22:19 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 15:22:19 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022638.23782.13762668483636643881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friend Thanks for letting us know that you have visited india for many many years. I amsure you would have seen how friendly and reasonable the hindus are . Unfortunately their culture and character is tainted by many indologists by usage of bad words like chaos etc . while such words do give a wrong impression of the character of the hindu society such words when repeated very often even by innocence that that is the true character of the hindu society . it is like making a lie appear true by repeating it enough times . i hope that true scientific indologista will avoid using such wrong and unhealthy words being used against any society , not alone hindus , unless it is proved that that society as bad as the word chaotic means . that word was used by missionaries to slant hindus in a time of their aggressive attacks on non-white cultures and we as scientists should not lend support to such unfortunate usages even by innocence . M.Rajagopalanzz From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Feb 7 21:51:24 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 15:51:24 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022639.23782.2280036975348368561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> an innocent semantic question on this matter, and perhaps presumptuous to suggest re-interpretation of someone else' terminaology, but here goes- could it not be that "chaos" was invoked--perhaps, still, in unforeseen error--in the sense prescribed by the more revolutionary fringes of sub-atomic physics? if this were the case, it might actually be the genesis of a terminology which could actually be fair in describing cultural phenomena which do NOT easily mold themselves to stale generalizations of english. in addition, such a usage of the term necessarily entails an admission on the part of the user (if, indeed, this were how the term was intended) that ultimate "graha" of the topic or issue is and will remain outside the purview of controllable, manipulable, and deginable data quanta? whether or not this was the case with the usage of the word which has brought forth this controversy, i suggest consideration of these term pools related to chaos theory as they are perhaps quite reflective of the various ineffables entailed in study or discovery of the cultural/temporal/ethnic "other". tentatively, john robert gardner university of iowa On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU wrote: > dear friend > Thanks for letting us know that you have visited india for many many years. > I amsure you would have seen how friendly and reasonable the hindus are . > Unfortunately their culture and character is tainted by many indologists by > usage of bad words like chaos etc . while such words do give a wrong impression > of the character of the hindu society such words when repeated very often even by innocence > that that is the true character of the hindu society . it is like making > a lie appear true by repeating it enough times . i hope that true scientific indologista > will avoid using such wrong and unhealthy words being used against any society , > not alone hindus , unless it is proved that that society as bad as the > word chaotic means . that word was used by missionaries to slant > hindus in a time of their aggressive attacks on non-white cultures and we > as scientists should not lend support to such unfortunate usages even > by innocence . M.Rajagopalanzz > From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Feb 7 22:07:16 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 16:07:16 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022641.23782.16318367133612380094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> under the circumstances, it is understandable that there is a past evaluative weight placed upon the term chaos. however, the term "racist" is equally offensive and does not assist the quality of this dialogue. further, to absolutize the "one and only meaning" of chaos, as suggested below, is to also keep earnestly alive the ignorant and childish attitudes of early western indologists (and, sadly, current ones). further, linguistically and semantically word meanings are not absolute, unchanging, and eternal. to try and maintain such a position does obeisance to the very hegemony perpetrated by the socio-political vicissitudes of english which, it appears, RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO wishes to see handled differently and more sensitively. jrg On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU wrote: > dear people , > Chaos theory is a part of mathematics . Please note this fact . Do not try to link that with > link that with the word " chaos ' used by indologists .They are two > totally diffeent contexts . The mathematics " chaos' does not lend > any honourable nature to the word Chaos used by Indologists. Some indologists > use the word chaos without knowing that it has an offensive connotation > against the society to which it refers . Perhaps such innocent indologists > will correct themselves after being pointed out that that word was used > by some missionaries with racist motives ( like Max muller) to > to insult > and denigrate Hinduism and other non-white cultures. But some determined > racist indologists keep hammering on using that word and try to get respecta- > bility for that word by going out of context and keep using that > insulting word to describe hinduism in a wrong way . Real scholars of Indology > should watch for this and should not represent a society in a wrong way > ( even by innocence ) when they want to be scientific. M.Rajagopalanm > From resnick at husc.harvard.edu Wed Feb 7 22:26:29 1996 From: resnick at husc.harvard.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 17:26:29 -0500 Subject: "minor" Upanishads Message-ID: <161227022643.23782.10381853400958452857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would very much appreciate any bibliographic information about serious studies or articles done on two "minor" Upanishads: the Paramatika Upanishad and the Ekakshara Upanishad, both of which are found in the Mantra Prasna of the Vaikhanasas. Both Upanishads are also found in the large compendium of Upanishads called the Upanisat-samgraha, edited by Professor J. L. Sastri. Thank you very much for any help in this regard. Howard Resnick Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Wed Feb 7 22:43:22 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 17:43:22 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022645.23782.16273803987194444407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Again thanks to Mr. Rajagopalan for expressing his deep concern about the wrongs of the past, about the possibility that contemporary Indologists remain innocent of any knowledge of them, and about unfortunate consequences that follow from their innocence. However, on evidence from the exchange of opinions to date, it would seem that the members of this list (at any rate, those who have chanced to respond to the initial query of Mr. White and the concern noted several times by Mr. Rajagopalan) do not claim innocence. I am quite prepared to admit that it is a plausible and important claim that colonial and Christian missionary interests did coincide and did work to the detriment of the colonized in significant instances in several parts of the world through, say, the middle of the 20th century. Moreover, there are people who remain pained by that history. Therefore, it may continue to be a contextual factor in contemporary study -- especially if undertaken by people who can be identified with the (former) colonizers of the land, its people, and their minds and spirits. That admitted (from this station), there are several other kinds of issues in play in this thread of discussion. As Gananath Obeyesekere observed at length and very effectively in his book The Work of Culture, most interpretive terms and concepts employed in the humanities and social sciences are contended (not settled) terms. Although Mr. Rajagopalan is continuing to contend that the term 'chaos' is not an appropriate one for interpreting any aspect of the festival of Holi -because it is prima facie a demeaning term and keeps alive in him the pain and sense of injustice that stems from a history of oppression of Hindus by outsiders-, it could be (and I beleive has been) contended on quite different grounds. That admitted (from this station), may I observe that (if we shift the context to a more recent time-frame) it is unfortunate that oppression seems not to have dimished since the bad old days of colonialism, nor does any one human category seem any longer to monopolize it. Having spent considerable time among both Arya Samajists and Sikhs in India, it would appear that contention, criticism, and conflict are doing all too well these days -- and quite apart from the colonial legacy. Perhaps, at this point, the discussion might be directed to a question something like the following: given that someone wants to study Holi, how should they go about it, and what sort of interpretive framework(s) might prove fruitful for advancing knowledge? Otherwise, as has been pointed out by other contributors to this thread, it might be timely to rest or to shift to another kind of list. Humbly submitted for your consideration, Gene Thursby, U. of Florida On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU wrote: > dear friend > Thanks for letting us know that you have visited india for many many years. > I amsure you would have seen how friendly and reasonable the hindus are . > Unfortunately their culture and character is tainted by many indologists by > usage of bad words like chaos etc . while such words do give a wrong impression > of the character of the hindu society such words when repeated very often even by innocence > that that is the true character of the hindu society . it is like making > a lie appear true by repeating it enough times . i hope that true scientific indologista > will avoid using such wrong and unhealthy words being used against any society , > not alone hindus , unless it is proved that that society as bad as the > word chaotic means . that word was used by missionaries to slant > hindus in a time of their aggressive attacks on non-white cultures and we > as scientists should not lend support to such unfortunate usages even > by innocence . M.Rajagopalanzz From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 8 01:35:40 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 19:35:40 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022647.23782.16681745684523537854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gardner , No matter how you cut it an apple is an apple and a thorn is a thorn . in the past many racists have used a bad word to describe a non- white culture and when strong opposition was presented by facts they either withdrew without honestly accepting their bad actions or tried to justify by devious means by connecting to subjects , scientific but which unfortunately do not connect with the word used in the context of describing a society . For example would you describe your community as the sladering word R - c - s -t by stating that in sports the word race is a very good and acceptable term ? it is not honest scientific approach to keep on insisting to use a word that dewscribes a society wrongly saying that that wordhas a different connotation in different areas . words which give a wrong connotation to the readers and which have demeaning implications should not be used by scientists in describing a society unless that demeaning nature of the society is firmly established first . M.Rajagopalan. From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 8 01:56:46 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 19:56:46 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022649.23782.7733216547480663845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Thursby, It is natural that people want to know about other cultures and hence ask ask questions either publicly or privately about variuos aspetcs of a cuture . Hinduism is no exception to this reasonable curiosity and knowledge of people . It will go a long way in promoting friendship and understanding when non-offensive words are used . ( especially when such words give a wrong and bad interpretation of a society) It is enough if people ask , " how can we know about holi " wothout adding " chaotic " in the description. If one wants the religious aspects of the festival one can say so and if one wants the social aspects then one can say that too . So why should anyone insist on using the same insulting terms used by early aggressive missionaries that were intended to misrepresent and demean demean others ? That is not a scientific attitude .So the indologists should refrain from using the same wrong and insuting descriptive words by early 19th century missionary zealots in describing hinduism . m.rajagopalan From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu Feb 8 02:44:51 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 21:44:51 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022651.23782.11614862528967532931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajagopalan, your message received. Nothing new to be said, Thursby From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Feb 7 22:01:41 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 22:01:41 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization, c. 2500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227022631.23782.7919357087781253716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, I am flooded with inquiries on the great civilization. Here is a rather long attachment outlining the state of current knowledge and the work that has to be done in the Indus Sarasvati Research Centre and by interested scholars world-wide. This has to be a cooperative endeavor and will do well with a lot of help and encouragement from well-wishers and ardent lovers of the traditions and cultural inheritance from our glorious heritage. Dr. Kalyanaraman. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: INDUS01.TXT Type: application/mac-binhex40 Size: 99430 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Bridgman at aol.com Thu Feb 8 03:26:22 1996 From: Bridgman at aol.com (Bridgman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 22:26:22 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022654.23782.15343339660456239898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With all due respect Mr, Rajagopalan, Please set us straight, how would you describe the Holi festival? Then we can put this one to bed. Thanks, bridgman at aol.com From Bridgman at aol.com Thu Feb 8 03:26:41 1996 From: Bridgman at aol.com (Bridgman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 22:26:41 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022656.23782.7147692931259266033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 96-02-07 17:13:05 EST, you write: >whether or not this was the case with the usage of the word which has >brought forth this controversy, i suggest consideration of these term >pools related to chaos theory as they are perhaps quite reflective of the >various ineffables entailed in study or discovery of the >cultural/temporal/ethnic "other". Could you please translate this into English? From 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de Thu Feb 8 04:59:00 1996 From: 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de (0622660198-0001 at t-online.de) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 05:59:00 +0100 Subject: wordsworth Message-ID: <161227022658.23782.1475435755384211551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much for your kind help. It seems everybody knew the answer but us! Sorry for asking such an unindological question. The thing is, we *are* indologists, but only Ditte is still working in the field (more or less, at least: on rock inscriptions in the Upper Indus Valley, at the Heidelberg Academy of Sciences) We?ve turned into one-and-a-half literary translator(s) and are currently doing Seamus Heaney?s Oxford Lectures ("The Redress of Poetry") into German. So thanks again; and shabdaarthaav iva samprktau shabdaarthapratipattaye / jagatah pitarau vande paarvatiiparameshvarau // (as a translator should) Drs. Ditte Koenig & Giovanni Bandini eMail: 0622660198.0001 at t-online.de From 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de Thu Feb 8 08:05:00 1996 From: 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de (0622660198-0001 at t-online.de) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:05:00 +0100 Subject: Sogdian Buddhists Message-ID: <161227022659.23782.18402083520612397256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know a reliable (quotable) publication on the religion(s) of the Sogdians? What I need to know for sure is that they were not only Zoroastrians but also Buddhists and that they contributed in the propagation of Buddhism. I?ve found only one very short reference by Oskar von Hinueber so far and I could use some more. We?ve got lots (over 500) Sogdian inscriptions in Shatial (Upper Indus Valley, Pakistan), some of them seemingly in connection with drawings of Stupas, and I try to determine whether they do belong together or not. In case Nicholas Sims-Williams reads this, sorry for not asking you directly! Dr. Ditte Koenig Heidelberg Academy of Sciences Rock Inscriptions in the Upper Indus Valley eMail: 0622660198.0001 at t-online.de From ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu Thu Feb 8 09:12:46 1996 From: ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu (Andrew Cohen) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:12:46 +0000 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022672.23782.11534180497424781496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> probably the discussion on 'chaos' has demonstrated that people in various academic fields have trouble understanding terms used in their disciplines than how holi is/can be interpreted. a mathematician insists that it is a term from his/her discipline, hence fixed within his/her discourse. and that it connotes negativity. yet, in other field the term is less loaded-- similar to random, or unpredicatable. even in art discussions 'chaos' has an unloaded meaning of the unpredicablity of artistic outcome. it is not uncommon for one field (say literary criticism) developing a theoretical use of a term and that term is assimilated into another field and takes on new weight. andrew cohen From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu Feb 8 15:17:53 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:17:53 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022674.23782.6054154171363250797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajagopalan wrote: > It is natural that people want to know about other cultures and hence ask >ask questions either publicly or privately about variuos aspetcs of a cuture . >Hinduism is no exception to this reasonable curiosity and knowledge of people . It will go a long way in promoting friendship and understanding >when non-offensive words are used . ( especially when such words give >a wrong and bad interpretation of a society) It is enough if people ask , >" how can we know about holi " wothout adding " chaotic " in the description. >If one wants the religious aspects of the festival one can say so >and if one wants the social aspects then one can say that too . >So why should anyone insist on using the same insulting terms >used by early aggressive missionaries that were intended to misrepresent and demean >demean others ? That is not a scientific attitude .So the indologists should refrain from using the same wrong and insuting descriptive words by early >19th century missionary zealots in describing hinduism . m.rajagopalan > I agree with him entirely on this. I would also add that theoretical models appropriate in one context, say the European, may not be appropriate in the Indian context. Indiscriminate use of such models would only lead to confusion. It is obvious that the Indian Society is much more complex compared to the relative homogeneity of the European. I recall an earlier heated discussion on another festival, DEEPAVALI. The suggestion by Narahari Rao to do a study of Indology itself is worth following. May be a discussion of the history of Indology, its beginning, development and evolution may bring out clearly some of the prejudices of colonial times and whether they still persist. sincerely, -B. N. Narahari Achar From magier at columbia.edu Thu Feb 8 14:30:35 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:30:35 -0500 Subject: Quest for a book Message-ID: <161227022669.23782.1531960765474723048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I'm looking for the following book: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > + _ _ _ _ + > + MUVAR TEVARAM (7 vols), + > + published by the Dharmapura Adinam, + > + Dharmapuram, 1953-1964. + > + + > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I couldn't locate a record for this exact edition, but I did locate the record reproduced below (which seems to be related), copies of which are located in Library of Congress, UC Berkeley, NY Public Library and Univ. of Pennsylvania library. Hope this helps. David Magier =========================== Ci_nk_arav_ela_n, Co., 1933- M_uvar T_ev_aram, ira_n_tu p_arvaika_l / Co. Ci_nk_arav_ela_n. -- Maturai : Patipputtu_rai, Maturai K_amar_acar Palkalaikka_lakam, 1987. 2, 165 p. ; 23 cm. -- (Patippu e_n ; 95) Series: Publication (Madurai Kamaraj University) ; no. 95. Rs15.00 LCCN: 89901361 L.C. CALL NO: BL1280.56.C56 1987 In Tamil. Study on T_ev_aram, Tamil _Saivite devotional anthology; transcript of the Tami_lkka_tal Ir_aya Co. memorial endowment lectures, organized by the Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai. Bibliography: p. 162-165. Rs15.00 1. _Saivism--Prayer-books and devotions--History and criticism. I. Title. II. Series: Publication (Madurai Kamaraj University) ; no. 95. LCCN: 89901361 L.C. CALL NO: BL1280.56.C56 1987 From unknown at example.com Thu Feb 8 15:53:13 1996 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:53:13 -0600 Subject: Muvar Tevaram Message-ID: <161227022676.23782.2025338996240081804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Muvar Tevaram ************* The Tamil Saiva saints' works, are called panniru tirumuRai. Tarumapuram edition is the classic commented edition. It is being reprinted by the Adheenam at a cost of 40 lakhs. T. V. Gopal Iyer & F. Gros edition gives the tevaram poems according to the method started by Murray S. Rajam. (words as separate units & sandhi is exploded.) The Saints' hagiography is given in Periya Puranam. The classic commented edition is by C. K. CuppiramaNiya mutaliyAr of Kovai Tamizc Cangkam (7 vol., 1930's). Ki. Va. Jakannatan also wrote commentary in 10 slim volumes. English version & study: *********************** G. Vanmikanathan Periya Puranam, a Tamil classic on the great Saiva Saints of South India. Madras: Sri Ramakrishna Math, 1985, 578 p. Periya Puranam is pro-brahmin. The Telugu version of Periyapuranam tells the saints' lifestories from a non-brahmin perspective. The contrasts/parallels have been pointed out by V. Narayana Rao, Warriors of Siva, Basava puranamu of Palkuriki Somanata, Princeton university press. Art History ************ Dr. Nagaswamy has written a nice book on St. Appar. He gives photos of rare bronzes of Appar from Chola heartland. R. Nagaswamy, Sivabhakti (On Saint Appar) Delhi: Navrang, 1989. 292 p. + 49 p. of plates Dr. Vidya Dehejia has studied the Tamil saints' bronzes in Slaves of the Lord: The path of the Tamil Saints. Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1988 206 p. 48 p. of plates Comparative Study ***************** Dr. David Shulman's recent book compares CiruttoNTa nAyanAr's story with those from Western religions. Hungry God, Hindu tales of filicide and devotion. University of Chicago press, 1993. 157 p. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Thu Feb 8 14:56:18 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:56:18 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022671.23782.11674388405643990080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I read the heated discussion on Holi, a question crossed my mind: Is it usual or correct to describe the "Christmas Party atmosphere" as a reenactment of the chaos that preceded the birth of the Savior? -Nath From Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz Thu Feb 8 09:38:03 1996 From: Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz (Jan.Dvorak at ff.cuni.cz) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 10:38:03 +0100 Subject: Quest for a book Message-ID: <161227022662.23782.17152054478844117144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGY-list members, I'm looking for the following book: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + _ _ _ _ + + MUVAR TEVARAM (7 vols), + + published by the Dharmapura Adinam, + + Dharmapuram, 1953-1964. + + + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Can you please check whether this title can be found in your place? If you know about any person who has the book in his personal property, please let me know too. I have to make a copy of it for it seems to be the only reliable commented edition of Tevaram, which is a topic of my PhD thesis. Thank you. -- |-------------------------------|-----------------------------| | Mr. Jan Dvorak, M.A. | | | Institute of Indian Studies | Home address: | | Charles University | | | Celetna 20 | Vodojemska 553 | | 110 00 Praha 1 | 190 14 Praha 9 - Klanovice | | Czech Republic | Czech Republic | | |-----------------------------| | | | phone: ##42-2-24491403 | | E-mail: dvorakj at dec59.ruk.cuni.cz | |-------------------------------------------------------------| From athr at loc.gov Thu Feb 8 15:57:30 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 10:57:30 -0500 Subject: Russian archives and the Great Game Message-ID: <161227022678.23782.6450838259252043074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anyone begun to work in the Russian archives on what Czarist goals were in Central Asia, whether the regime really was contemplating a move on India or whether this was British paranoia? (If not here's a free dissertation topic for the youth.) Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE Thu Feb 8 10:17:23 1996 From: Th.Malten at Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 11:17:23 +0100 Subject: Quest for a book Message-ID: <161227022664.23782.17778645508632554802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I'm looking for the following book: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > + _ _ _ _ + > + MUVAR TEVARAM (7 vols), + > + published by the Dharmapura Adinam, + > + Dharmapuram, 1953-1964. + > + + > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > if by the above title the followig titles are meant then we have them here. Signatur: M 4393 a-g tEvArat tiruppatikagkaL. kuRippuraikaLuTan_. vol. 1-7. tarumapuram: AtIn_am 1953-1964. vol. 1: tirun^An_acampantar mutal tirumuRai. 120, 627 pp. (veLiyITu eN 290). vol. 2: tirun^An_acampantar iraNTAm tirumuRai. 167, 596 pp. (veLiyITu eN 317). vol. 3: tirun^1 An_acampantar mUn_RAvatu tirumuRai. xiv, 668 pp. (veLiyITu eN 348). vol. 4: tirunAvukkaracu nAlAn tirumuRai 96, 848 pp. (veLiyITu eN 391). vol. 5: tirunAvukkaracu aintAn tirumuRai. 20, 648 pp. (veLiyITu eN 500). vol. 6: tirunAvukkaracu ARAn tirumuRai. 194, 820 pp. (veLiyITu eN 545). vol. 7: cuntarar EzAn tirumuRai. 179, 872 pp. (veLiyITu eN 555). we have of course also some more editions (ca. 16, I haven't checked for doublets though). we also have a (badly typed) digital text based on the Pondicheryy edition. That should be the ultimate edition? Wasn't it you who wrote to me a long time back about our digital classical Please let me know what I can do for you and convey my regards to Prof. Vacek. -Thomas Malten Institut fuer Indologie & Tamilistik, Pohligstr. 1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel. 49-0221-470-5340, Fax 49-0221-470-5151, email th.malten at uni-koeln.de gopher linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de; ftp://ftp.rrz.uni-koeln.de/institute/indologie http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/index.html From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Feb 8 10:42:08 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 11:42:08 +0100 Subject: Indus Kohistan Message-ID: <161227022666.23782.16148212508571883165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology subscribers, I have been working on the Shina language of Indus Kohistan in Pakistan (grammatical analysis, lexicography, design of a writing system etc.). Is there anyone else out there working on any topic concerned with Indus Kohistan, or any of the adjacent regions? Best regards, Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 08 96 Feb EST 11:51:00 Date: 08 Feb 96 11:51:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: social darwinism in British India Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dear list members is anyone aware of any studies or is there any published material on this topic that you know of? (I am asking this on behalf of someone who is not a member of this list) >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 08 96 Feb EST 07:02:36 Date: 08 Feb 96 07:02:36 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: WARNING It is with great concern that I forward this message to you. Good luck! Hans-Georg Tuerstig >SUBJECT: VIRUSES--IMPORTANT PLEASE READ IMMEDIATELY > > There is a computer virus that is being sent across the > Internet. If you receive an e-mail message with the subject > line "Good Times", DO NOT read the message, DELETE it > immediately. Please read the messages below. Some miscreant > is sending e-mail under the title "Good Times" nation wide, > if you get anything like this, DON'T DOWN LOAD THE FILE! It > has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating > anything on it. Please be careful and forward this mail to > anyone you care about. > >******************************************************** > WARNING!!!!!!! INTERNET VIRUS > >The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a > matter of major importance to any regular user of the > Internet. Apparently a new computer virus has been > engineered by a user of AMERICA ON LINE that is unparalleled > in its destructive capability. Other more well-known viruses > such as "Stoned", "Airwolf" and "Michaelangelo" pale in > comparison to the prospects of this newest creation by a > warped mentality. What makes this virus so terrifying, said > the FCC, is the fact that no program needs to be exchanged > for a new computer to be infected. It can be spread through > the existing e-mail systems of the Internet. Once a Computer > is infected, one of several things can happen. If the > computer contains a hard drive, that will most likely be > destroyed. If the program is not stopped, the computer's > processor will be placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary > loop -which can severely damage the processor if left running > that way too long. > Unfortunately, most novice computer users will not > realize what is happening until it is far too late. Luckily, > there is one sure means of detecting what is now known as the > "Good Times" virus. It always travels to new computers the > same way in a text email message with the subject line > reading "Good Times". Avoiding infection is easy once the > file has been received- not reading it! The act of loading > the file into the mail server's ASCII buffer causes the "Good > Times" mainline program to initialize and execute. > The program is highly intelligent- it will send copies of > itself to everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a > receive-mail file or a sent-mail file, if it can find one. It > will then proceed to trash the computer it is running on. The > bottom line here is - if you receive a file with the subject > line "Good Times", delete it immediately! Do not read it" > Rest assured that whoever's name was on the "From" line was > surely struck by the virus. Warn your friends and local > system users of this newest threat to the Internet! It could > save them a lot of time and money. > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Feb 8 19:55:12 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 11:55:12 -0800 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022696.23782.416194470479338764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > probably the discussion on 'chaos' has demonstrated that people in > various academic fields have trouble understanding terms used in their > disciplines than how holi is/can be interpreted. a mathematician In this connection, I recall my recent visit to the LA Museum of Contemporary Art. There was an exhibit titled "The Entropic Library" by Claes Oldenberg. THe accompanying caption talked of "entropy" as "decay and destruction". I had a good laugh at how people in the art community were misunderstanding the term entropy. Vidyasankar From pdb1 at columbia.edu Thu Feb 8 17:43:03 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 12:43:03 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022680.23782.5407492063448438435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > As I read the heated discussion on Holi, a question crossed my mind: > Is it usual or correct to describe the "Christmas Party atmosphere" > as a reenactment of the chaos that preceded the birth of the Savior? Interesting idea, worth looking into. To the extent that the participants are thinking in Christian terms at all, they probably think of it as an outpouring of joy at the birth. But it can certainly be chaotic; thanks for pointing it out. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From WHARMAN at DEPAUW.EDU Thu Feb 8 17:55:10 1996 From: WHARMAN at DEPAUW.EDU (WILLIAM HARMAN) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 12:55:10 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022684.23782.5681542806507400846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think an analysis of New Year's eve as a chaotic interlude before the beginning of a new calendrical year would be more applicable than would the notion of a Christmas party, though the two are not necessarily separable. New Year's eve can vary, but in my experience involves wild celebration, chaotic noise making (and noise makers), the donning of new roles or disguises with the wearing of hats and the indiscriminate dissolution of normal barriers determining with whom one may be either familiar or affectionate. I would certainly maintain that it constitutes ritualized chaos. I hope I can do so without being accused of racism. W. Harman From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Thu Feb 8 19:07:51 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 13:07:51 -0600 Subject: Discussion on Holi Message-ID: <161227022690.23782.17399365430415262380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with the deep concerns expressed by M. Rajagopalan about the wrongs of the past, the motivation of the early Indologists in denegrating hinduism and other non-christian religions. I was not particularly surprised at the lightning quickness with which some of the members responded to his initial comments,which were in some sense born out of frustration. Now, some recognition of the wrongs of the past have been aired. Even if "chaos" is a theoretical concept which has already been applied in the European context, it does not follow that it is an appropriate tool or model applicable to the Indian context, in view of the decidedly more complex nature of the latter. I also think that the suggestion of Narahari Rao that a study of Indology itself may be undertaken. I suggest that a discussion of the beginnings, early history, evolution and maturing of Indology as a discipline may be started on the list. I hope this will bringout the biases that were inherent in the olden days and that might still be continuing. I have a vested interest in ancient Indian astronomy an dI will add my comments. sincerely,- B. N. Narahari Achar From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Feb 8 19:19:46 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 13:19:46 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022692.23782.8543472103674583369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> english seems laiden with racism, totalitarianism, 19th-century myopia, 20th-century bitterness, and cynical coyness. enough jrg On Thu, 8 Feb 1996 Bridgman at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-02-07 17:13:05 EST, you write: > > >whether or not this was the case with the usage of the word which has > >brought forth this controversy, i suggest consideration of these term > >pools related to chaos theory as they are perhaps quite reflective of the > >various ineffables entailed in study or discovery of the > >cultural/temporal/ethnic "other". > > Could you please translate this into English? > From athr at loc.gov Thu Feb 8 18:46:51 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 13:46:51 -0500 Subject: Quest for a book Message-ID: <161227022694.23782.16707230177021989199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, David Magier wrote: > > I'm looking for the following book: > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > + _ _ _ _ + > > + MUVAR TEVARAM (7 vols), + > > + published by the Dharmapura Adinam, + > > + Dharmapuram, 1953-1964. + > > + + > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In addition to the title David Magier cites, there is also the following (an updated critical ed.?): LC CARD NO:89-901361 LC CALL NO:BL1280 .56 .T57 1988 (Orien Tam) TITLE: Panniru Tirumurai / PLACE: Kumpakonam : Cennai : PUBLISHER: Sri Kamakoti Ayvumaiyam ; Kitaikkumitankal, Vanati Patippakam, YEAR: 1988- PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: v. <1- > ; 22 cm. NOTES: In Tamil. Cover title: Muvar Tevaram. Includes bibliographical references and indexes. 1. Tirunanacampantar, Tirunavukkaracar, Cuntarar akiya muvarum arulic ceyta Tevaram, onru mutal elu tirumuraikal, talamurai. Tamil Sivaite canon. SUBJECT: Saivism -- Prayer-books and devotions -- Tamil -- Early works to 1800. ALT TITLE: Tirumurai. OTHER: Campantar, 7th cent. Appar, 7th cent. Cuntarar. Makatevan, Ve. Muvar Tevaram. Unfortunately the Library of Congress no longer engages in international interlibrary loan (for financial reasons; the question is however being reconsidered). However in North America at least the following libraries have it (those listed on OCLC): Berkeley, Chicago, New York Public, U. Texas at Austin, U. of Washington, U. Wisconsin, U. British Columbia. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu Thu Feb 8 13:56:45 1996 From: ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu (Andrew Cohen) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 13:56:45 +0000 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022698.23782.11274227282174288091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The suggestion by Narahari Rao to do a study of Indology itself is worth > following. May be a discussion of the history of Indology, its beginning, > development and evolution may bring out clearly some of the prejudices of > colonial times and whether they still persist. > sincerely, -B. N. Narahari Achar > Though maybe not everyone will agree with how it is done, Ronald Inden's _Imagining India_ (1990) does attempt to do the above suggestion. From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Feb 8 20:06:08 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 14:06:08 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022700.23782.14477093791105780855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> re. portion of message below for all concerned-- suggest reading W. Halbfass' "India and Europe: and Essay in understanding." further, to discuss "paradigms of studty" in the first place is a term already-weighted with european values. those of us who fight within the western academic culture to awaken the minds of those scholars before us to their arrogance seek all reasonable means of expression at our disposal. we often feel like the jelly in a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich: the teeth of our traditions squeeze down from one side, the teeth of individuals in other traditions who don't liek our efforts to find new terms squeeze from the other and we just get squirted out the sides and dribbled down the shirt of of the lumbering behemoth of institutionalized cultural insensitivity. i truly hope that peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches were not also a part of some missionary's zealous persecution of another culture. i would hate to perpetuate the image. those of us who are trying to find new paradigms could benefit from gentle and responsible criticism from all interested parties-- not the all-too-easy knee-jerk (and, ironically, a western one) of tar-and-feathering with slanderous terminology like racism. frankly, much of the terminology regarding western scholars is equally racist in its generalizations and its about time everybody got a grip on the fundamental fact that racism lies in USAGE of a word far more than it does in the semantic isolation of the term itself. those angered by the word chaotic have granted that the word can have unweighted meaning in other areas, but they take it upon themselves to dominate the language field of discussion by demanding that, in their relam of expression, its unacceptable. frankly, accusations of racism are unacceptable in mine. unless there is a double-standard at work here, i think its about time both terms be laid to rest if the judgemental myopia cannot be. jrg On Thu, 8 Feb 1996 ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU wrote: > > > > > The suggestion by Narahari Rao to do a study of Indology itself is worth > following. May be a discussion of the history of Indology, its beginning, > development and evolution may bring out clearly some of the prejudices of > colonial times and whether they still persist. > sincerely, -B. N. Narahari Achar > From jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu Thu Feb 8 19:12:49 1996 From: jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu (jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 14:12:49 -0500 Subject: The "Limits of Language" Message-ID: <161227022688.23782.4183989597021240285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I continue to be amazed at the diatribes that are thrown at colleagues who are indologists by academicians outside the field who somehow have grossly misinterpreted a simple request for a film on Holi so a serious student use it to better understand and appreciate a major religious festival in India. It reminds me of my undergraduates who are deeply offended by the use of the word "myth" to refer to religious stories (particularly students from the Christian tradition) until they understand the origins of the word and unpack its meaning for the academic study of religion and culture. Then, even undergraduates appreciate its importance for academic discourse: non-threatening, non-perjorative, non-prejudicial, etc. In the case of "chaos" from the Greek meaning a great chasm or abyss, the suggestion is that there is a gulf or a place of disorder between point x and point y. Certainly, as the Holi story is told and the praxis develops, one is not just shooting colored water at friends, or throwing powders on friends. That is one element and a joyous one for sure. But, based on my own observations of and discussions in India with participants in towns and villages, another is to allow--briefly--those of lower varna status to respond to those of a higher varna, not necessarily vindictively, but with a certain reminder that society is not always orderly but desperately needs that order that life may proceed. To dissolve that order briefly is only to suggest that chaos preceeds order, but that order will return. For indologists who are historians of religions this is a common pattern in all religious traditions. And, in many ways, like Holi, a comforting one--that chaos does not endure--order does, and does so because of the intervention of the gods and/or goddesses. In this light, I hope that my esteemed colleague across the mountains from me in Tennessee will refrain from the necesity of referring to me as a racist. I already have too many scars from earlier years as a civil rights activist to let such bigotry bother me any more. An introspective look may suggest this is not only not profitable, inflammatory, legally slanderous but has no place in serious academic discourse among scholars! And, to the professor of math--V.K. Rao--who responded today, he needs to understand that an element of the academic study of India is to engage students in a serious understanding of and appreciation for much in India that has been too much maligned by several hundred years of Western biases. Finally, this discussion in response to my simple query has provided me with delightful mail from colleagues who I respect greatly and has again affirmed my perpetual reminder to students that one must be careful with language: it has its limits and the limits of some are shorter than the limits of others in understanding that language. Dan White From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Fri Feb 9 01:24:42 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 15:24:42 -1000 Subject: "Good Times" virus -- yes and no Message-ID: <161227022720.23782.16300189586119802429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 1996 Bridgman at aol.com wrote: > > There is no such thing. The "Good Times" "virus" is a hoax, or perhaps > > more properly, it's sort of a meta-virus, in that the only virus-like > > activity is the forwarding of the warning message, which sucks up network > > bandwith, and e-mail disk space, because people "send it to all their > > friends". It's basically a chain letter. If one should come your way, do > > not send the "warning" to anyone, and educate the person who sent it to > > you. > > > > This foolishness reared its ugly head a few years ago, but apparently > > enough people have either forgotten it, or never heard of it, that it's > > being successfully perpetrated again. Sigh... While the "Good Times" virus itself is a hoax, the concept is feasible -- it can happen right now. This is because of the increasing use of MIME-capable email readers, which automatically popup a viewer program when you read an email that has MIME attachments. For example, if your email program (MIME-capable) is configured to automatically popup Microsoft Word when it sees an email attachment in MS Word format, and if that MS Word document has a "Macro" virus (see http://www.microsoft.com/msoffice/freestuf/msword/download/mvtool/mvtool2.htm for more info), you could end up automatically executing a virus on your Mac or PC, simply by reading your email. Similar horrors are, of course, theoretically possible by executing a PostScript or Acrobat "program" by automatically launching your PS or Acrobat viewer program from your email reader. As for "Java" attachments, the mind boggles. :-) Regards, Raja. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Feb 8 23:42:30 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 15:42:30 -0800 Subject: WARNING Message-ID: <161227022715.23782.404645770746769356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Surely this is a joke? I can't even imagine how to design a virus > like the one described. ends up being propagated to various lists due to altruism. If any of you have been thinking of forwarding this warning to friends and other lists, please don't do so. There is no "good times" virus, the only thing that spreads like a virus is this warning about a fictitious virus! Vidyasankar From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu Feb 8 21:12:18 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 16:12:18 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022702.23782.18168093860329317406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > As I read the heated discussion on Holi, a question crossed my mind: > Is it usual or correct to describe the "Christmas Party atmosphere" > as a reenactment of the chaos that preceded the birth of the Savior? > -Nath G. K. Chesterton begins "Christmas and the Aesthetes" with the words: "The world is round, so round that the schools of optimism and pessimism have been arguing from the beginning whether it is the right way up. The difficulty does not arise so much from the mere fact that good and evil are mingled in roughly equal proportions; it arises chiefly from the fact that men always differ about what parts are good and what evil." Because neither names like Victor Turner and Ronald Grimes nor terms like 'liminality' and 'communitas' are recognized in this discussion, perhaps popular literature will be more effective. Not only do I respond in the affirmative to Nath's inquiry, I find its most lively exemplification (so far as the writers generally identified with my own region may go) in Lillian Smith's book -Memory of a Large Christmas- (Norton, 1962) which aptly throws together hog-killing, interracial interdining, and innocent virgins who are seated at the same dining table as robbers and rapists from a chain-gang. Truly a large Christmas, and a fitting one. Moving from popular regional literature to popular history, J.M. Golby and A.W. Purdue in -The Making of the Modern Christmas- (Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1986) offer a fairly long menu of similar fare: "Thus we find St Gregory Nazianzen, who died in AD 389, warning his flock against '...feasting to excess, dancing and crowning the doors' and urging 'the celebration of the festival after an heavenly and not after an earthly manner'. Many a priest, prelate or minister has preached to his congregation in similar vein, from AD 389 to AD 1986. The 'gross' elements of Christmas -- gluttony, drunkenness and the challenge to public order and discipline represented by indecent plays, the reversal of social roles and dressing up as the oppositve sex or as animals -- all became the standard targets of austere and reformist prelates." The same and worse is found in more ambitious regional histories, such as Ronald Hutton's -The Rise and Fall of Merry England: The Ritual Year 1400-1700- (OUP, 1994). I'd study the Christmas cycle in much the same way as I'd study the Holi cycle. And I'd stir up about the same amount of resentment in either context. Face it, truth, ambitious scholarship, unfamiliar ways of speaking and writing, all hurt. As the late Ernest Becker hammered home in his last major work, it's dangerous to stick out too far. From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Feb 8 22:38:05 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 17:38:05 -0500 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022707.23782.16139039963635277908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>It reminds me of my undergraduates who are deeply >>offended by the use of the word "myth" to refer I was similarly offended at first by the use of the word "cult" to describe systems of worship and ritual such as s'rIvidyA... am not sure if I have gotten over it... but I realize that its academic use is value-free... or is it :-) -Srini. From Bridgman at aol.com Thu Feb 8 23:10:26 1996 From: Bridgman at aol.com (Bridgman at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 18:10:26 -0500 Subject: non-virus warning. Message-ID: <161227022709.23782.8569742559037137144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 96-02-08 12:24:32 EST, you write: > My standard "good times" blurb below (as I work >at a computer centrer, I keep a copy handy...). > > Proving once again that misinformation never goes away, it just gets > recycled, we've had another report of the "Good Times" "virus". > > There is no such thing. The "Good Times" "virus" is a hoax, or perhaps > more properly, it's sort of a meta-virus, in that the only virus-like > activity is the forwarding of the warning message, which sucks up network > bandwith, and e-mail disk space, because people "send it to all their > friends". It's basically a chain letter. If one should come your way, do > not send the "warning" to anyone, and educate the person who sent it to > you. > > This foolishness reared its ugly head a few years ago, but apparently > enough people have either forgotten it, or never heard of it, that it's > being successfully perpetrated again. Sigh... > >-Lawrence H Smith, Academic Computing Specialist for the Sciences > Williams College Center for Computing, 313 Jesup Hall (413) 597-3073 >-lsmith at williams.edu Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. > > > > From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Feb 9 03:11:34 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 19:11:34 -0800 Subject: east india company seal Message-ID: <161227022722.23782.17346708676679196029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is anyone on the list aware of the language of the seal of the British East India Company? I have read that the seal was in Persian, which seems surprising to me. Did the company use a Persian seal in its early life in India? Vidyasankar From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Feb 9 00:33:01 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 19:33:01 -0500 Subject: Holi forever- some facts Message-ID: <161227022718.23782.8563988958484778135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What about some facts? As I do not have an older pre-colonial or pre-Muslim (?!) description of Holi at my hands (anyone? we should check the early Nibandhas or the Kaavyas) I offer something I have been working on recently: a much older, c. 2500 years old description ---- by Brahmins for Brahmins but ``graphic`` enough --- of another year-end festival/ritual, the winter solstice rite of Mahaavrata (at the end of the year long Gavaam Ayana ritual). This description, taken from the Aapastamba Shrautasutra of the Black Yajurveda is ``smrti`` in the technical, traditional Hindu sense, but some shorter versions of this Sattra ritual are found in the Sruti as well: in the Samhitas and Brahmanas --- again composed by Brahmins for Brahmins and therefore definitely above all ``colonial`` (but certainly not anti-Shudra!) suspicion. Enjoy the musical chaos, the social upheavel and the (almost!) sexual liberty -- this is a sanctified srauta rite, after all... -- all of which we are used to in ``carnivals`` from ancient and present Europe to Brazil, from the Dayaks in Indonesia to medieval Japan... I have witnessed these things myself in the Rhineland (Germany), during Holi and similar festivals in Nepal < with the worst obscenities shouted in the streets, of course only during the festival>, and a colleague has told me the story of his Holi in Benares where he, after having had the common dosis of bhang the night before with his Hindu hosts, awoke up next morning on the roof terrace of his hosts, with no memory of last night and, equally, sans culottes, -- the women of teh household smiling at him; he summarized his experience: ``after that, I was accepted by all...`` A quick translation runs like this. Remember, all of this is part of a Soma ritual!) Aapastamba Zrauta Suutra 21.9.1 sqq. When the stotra belonging to the Mahendra drink < thus at noon> has been "driven" near, 'all voices sound'. 2. The offerers (participants of the Sattra, all Yajamaanas) raise a loud shouting din. 3. The wives play the ApaaghaaTalikas, Tamil lutes, and the Piccholaas. 4. The lute players sound their conches, reed flutes, and flutes. 5. The Veda student and the prostitute fight, clinging to the right door post. [According to the Saamavedic DraahyaayaNa Zrauta Suutra 11.3.9.10: The prostitute shall say: "You who has behaved badly! You, who has broken the vow of chastity!" and the student should answer: "Shame on you! despicable one! Whore! You who 'washes off" the community of the graama (settlement), who washes off the penis of men!"] 6. The prostitute and the native of the Magadha land (Southern Bihar) get together (for sex). 7. There is a chariot race. 8. One beats the (large) drums, and the earth drum with the tail piece. 9. The Arya and the Zuudra tear at the leather piece, which is wet, white and cut of in a round shape: the Brahmin standing inside and the Zuudra outside the Vedi. 10. The Zuudra denigrates, the Brahmin praises. 11. The Brahmin says: "These [offerers of the Sattra] have succeeded, they have gained wealth"; the Zuudra: "These have brought destruction, have brought damage." << one of the few cases where the lower classes speak out!! >> 12. After the Brahmin has overcome the Zuudra, he throws the leather piece into the aagniidhra hut. 13. The armored (nobility) drive around the skin which is spread out as aim. 14. The Adhvaryu orders each one of them "Don't miss! Do not shoot too far!" 15. When they shoot, they take care not to shoot too far. 16. According to some, it is the princes who shoot. 17. After they have driven north a distance, open to choice, they turn back and unharness their horses. 18. At this moment the servant women put their pitchers, filled with water, on their head, and go dancing three times around the maarjaliiya hut, turning their right side towards it, stamping on the ground with their right foot, singing the song, "here is the sweet". 19. According to [the ritualist teacher] Aazmarathya, they should only sing: "Here is the sweet stemming from the bee, here is the pressed out Soma, drink of it; they satisfy themselves. Hey, the pleasure! Here is the sweet, here is the sweet!" 21.20. 1. According to Aalekhana, two of the girls should sing the Hillukaa song, two the Himbinii, two the Hastaavaaraa, and two the "Year" song. 4. The exclamations "Hey, pleasure!" "Here is sweet!" and "Hillu, hillu!" are added to the end of each verse. 5. Then the servant girls pour out the pitchers near the (Maarjaliiya) and go away. 6. With the end of the stotra, the sound stops <. 7. The Adhvaryu makes the response to the zastra of the Hotar after he has sat down on the two boards or the bushels of grass, with two verses. 8. This is the end of the Mahaavrata day. 21.21.6 On the ViSuuvat day (summer solstice) the same (soma) drinks, first in rising, then in reverse order... ====================================For those who still want to read on: AApastambaZS 21.7: preparations for the Mahaavrata day. 1. [After the end of the ten days of the twelve day period at the end of the year long Sattra] one performs the Mahaavrata day... 4. [While singing the Parimaad Saamans], the wives [of the offerers participating in the Sattra] join. 5.-7. While taking out the Soma drinks for Indra and the Maruts ... the Pratiprasthaatar priest puts the "ornaments" (zilpa) to be used during the Mahaavrata, each at its location. 8-10. One has made ten holes in the staff of a lute made of the wood of a fig tree. He ties ten strings of munja grass each to each hole. This is the lute with 100 strings. 11. Others use a lute with 33 strings. 12. For the Udgaatar he puts down a "throne" of udumbara wood, with a seat made of woven munja grass.. 13. .. for the Hotar he makes a swing of Udumbara wood, which he fixes above with a string of munja grass. 14. For the Adhvaryu he puts down two boards of Udumbara wood or two tufts of grass. 16. The wives get ready the ApaaghaaTalika, the Tamil lutes and the Piccholaa. 17. The lute players also get the conches, bamboo flutes, wooden flutes ready. 18. A Veda student and a prostitute get ready, who will have a fight in front of the right door post of the Sadas (hut). 19. In the northern "hip" part of the Mahaavedi [i.e. in the northwest/southwest corner] one portions off a room for the prostitute and the native of the Magadha land. 21.18 1. In the various directions of the sky (E.-S.-W.-N.) they put down (large) drums, or at the corners of the Mahaavedi. 2. Behind the aagniidhra hut one digs the hole for the earth drum, one half of it being inside, the other half outside the Vedi. 3. On this hole one spreads a wet skin, with the hairy side above, and fixes it all around with pins in the ground, and puts down the tail used for drumming next to it. 4. In front of the aagniidhra hut, an Aarya and a Zuudra stand ready, in order to pull at the round, cut of leather piece. 5. North of the aagniidhra hut, one spreads a wet skin on a mat of bamboo scaffold and erects its [to be used as the aim for bow shooting] 6. The armored [princes and sons of the nobility] fix their girdles (standing) on their chariots, in front of the aahavaniiya. 7. Near the maarjaliiya hut, 8 servant girls get ready, with pitchers full of water. 8-9. After the Adhvaryu has recited "speech is favorable, mind is favorable, maana is favorable: all this may be favorable to us!" he sounds the lute, beating it with a three-section piece of UtkaTa (reed etc.) 10-12 ========================== Of course, I could go on quite a while with other sacred Vedic rituals and texts, but much of that will come out soon in an article dealing with ancient prose/metric texts. [B The other texts are much more ``explicit`` -- just think of the Azvamedha... which has some features of this festival as well. MW> From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 00:36:59 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 19:36:59 -0500 Subject: New font available with Computer Sanskrit encoding Message-ID: <161227022706.23782.14169036308373236914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have spent some hours recently making up a CS (Computer Sanskrit) version of Adobe's font "Utopia". It is quite a nice font, perhaps a little more of a "book-face" than the Bitstream Charter that has been available for some time in CS encoding. The Utopia font is a professionally designed typeface which has been officially released by Adobe Inc. for free distribution. I have made the following files available: adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-10.zip adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-PS-10.readme and adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-10.zip adobe-utopia-font-CS-encoding-TTF-10.readme by anonymous ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk in /pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software or via your web browser at URL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html (follow the links to INDOLOGY supplementary gopher -- software) The filenames are long, in order to be explanatory. I hope this doesn't cause any problem downloading the files. It shouldn't, with modern software. The "10" at the end of the names is a version number: I expect to make minor changes from time to time to upgrade these fonts, especially in the area of font encoding vector. The "PS" fonts are PostScript (for any system that supports Adobe Type Manager, including Windows, OS/2, Mac etc.); the "TTF" fonts are TrueType, for use with raw Windows 3.1 and up, and the Mac. I am sorry to say that I do not have the time to help anyone with acquiring, unzipping, or installing these fonts. The procedures are not difficult, and are well documented in your system manuals. The *.readme files give brief documentation about the fonts, and explain the files to be found in the zip archives. The CS encoding is documented in other files at the same place as above. It provides a font with the ready-made characters required for working in romanized Sanskrit, e.g., a+macron, t-underdot, and so forth. These extra, accented characters are in standard positions, defined by the CS "standard" agreed at the Vienna World Sanskrit conference some years ago. The Sanskrit characters in the CS forumulation ride "piggy back" on the IBM code-page 437 extension to the ASCII character set. I.e., where there is no Sanskrit character, expect to find the appropriate cp437 character. This arrangement is looking increasingly dated. Especially with these Utopia and Bitstream fonts, in PostScript and Truetype format, which are clearly aimed at Windows and OS/2 users, etc. The base character set for Windows is not cp437, so characters from a cp437 coded font are sometimes not where Windows expects to find them, and Windows programs vary in the elegance (!) with which they solve this problem. I think a discussion, probably at the WSC in Bangalore next year, must be held to rethink the encoding issues, and to take account of people's experience using these fonts over the last few years. I would like to hear how people get on with these fonts, and especially whether they work okay on a Mac. I don't have access to a Mac for testing. Enjoy! Dominik Wujastyk -- Dominik Wujastyk From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Feb 8 18:46:51 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 19:46:51 +0100 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022686.23782.1922323068972267838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As I read the heated discussion on Holi, a question crossed my mind: >Is it usual or correct to describe the "Christmas Party atmosphere" >as a reenactment of the chaos that preceded the birth of the Savior? > >-Nath I don't think it is. But the Christmas party is a substitution for other ancient customs such as the Roman Saturnalia - and in Scandinavia the mid-winter "blot" or sacrifice - and both occasions are certainly connected with the chaotic. By chaos, I believe we here understand partly the fact that normal social relations are turned upside down, as happened during the Saturnalia, when e.g. slave-owners waited upon their slaves, but also that the demonic powers were let loose for a brief period of time. In antiquity, chaos simply meant that things had not found their rightful place in the scheme of things. Chaos is, so to speak, cosmos out of order. In the cosmos, things function the way they are supposed to: slaves waite on their masters, demons are under control, the material world operates the way it should etc. Christianity is superimposed upon these ancient beliefs and customs, but usually without recognizing them explicitly, in spite of the fact that Christianity has taken over quite a few notions of the ancient pagans. Today, in the Western world, the ancient dichotomy between chaos and cosmos has largely been lost. In Christianity, the dichotomy is between good and evil, God and Satan. It is an entirely moral proposition. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri Feb 9 03:31:22 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: east india company seal Message-ID: <161227022724.23782.3558464289076807046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, vidya wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of the language of the seal of the British > East India Company? I have read that the seal was in Persian, which seems > surprising to me. Did the company use a Persian seal in its early life > in India? Vidya, I don't know about the seal, but it makes good sense for it to have been in Persian. Persian was the official language of the Mughal Empire, so the Company used it also, until sometime in the 19th Century if I'm not mistaken. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Feb 9 03:42:49 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 22:42:49 -0500 Subject: east india company seal Message-ID: <161227022726.23782.8760964055846252081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has it been forgotten that the British merchants lived and dressed like Indians and used Persian (even Sanskrit) in their dealings until the 1830's? The Calcutta bishop (Heber I think) could spit hail and brimstone every Sunday, they changed their ways only with the arrival of the steamship, and consequently .... British wives in larger numbers..... >?From Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE 08 1996 Feb +0100 22:24:00 Date: 08 Feb 1996 22:24:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Not again "good times" (was: WARNING) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE Hello to all, In article <960208120235_100734.2313_EHV99-1 at CompuServe.COM> H.-G. Tuerstig wrote about "WARNING": > It is with great concern that I forward this message to > you. Good luck! Hans-Georg Tuerstig >> SUBJECT: VIRUSES--IMPORTANT PLEASE READ IMMEDIATELY >> [lots of stuff on Good Times virus deleted] Don't take the alleged e-mail virus "good times" for real. It is a myth of the internet or -- should I say -- an urban legend. Any mail containing warning(s) against it is a sort of chain letter and belongs to the category called "spam". I cite Patrick Crispen's definition: ------------------------------------------------------------ There are two types of "spams": deliberate spams which are mostly advertisements that are posted to thousands of LISTSERV lists and Usenet newsgroups, and inadvertent spams which are e-mail letters that sound true and which readers decide to forward to all of their friends. The inadvertent spams are the hardest to spot, because they seem to be legitimate. Here are some of the most prevalent inadvertent spams on the Net today: o THE BRAIN TUMOR BOY [... stuff deleted] o THE GOOD TIMES VIRUS MYTH: E-mail letters that have the words "GOOD TIMES" in their subject lines actually contain viruses. TRUTH: Its a lie (but you should still never launch a program or file (especially a Microsoft Word file) that you receive from anyone without first checking that program or file with an up-to-date virus checker). o THE $250 COOKIE RECIPE [...] o MAKE.MONEY.FAST [...] ------------------------------------------------------------ You may find more general information on "spam" in Patrick's Internet Roadmap lesson, write to LISTSERV at UA1VM.UA.EDU with the command: GET MAP09 LESSON F=3DMAIL in the body of your e-mail letter. Probably the best way to deal with the "good times" is to put it in your killfile. All the best Peter Wyzlic From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 04:28:17 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 23:28:17 -0500 Subject: WARNING Message-ID: <161227022711.23782.4912422579445604442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You've been had! The Good Times virus does not exist. The whole warning about it, with the recommendation that you tell all your friends, is simply another kind of "cascade" chain letter. The only damage is that it uses up network bandwidth. This "Good Times" scare crops up every year or so. Don't tell everyone. Don't worry. Dominik Wujastyk -- Dominik Wujastyk From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 04:40:25 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 23:40:25 -0500 Subject: Russian archives and the Great Game Message-ID: <161227022713.23782.8150753964688532055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:06:24 GMT you wrote: >Has anyone begun to work in the Russian archives on what Czarist goals >were in Central Asia, whether the regime really was contemplating a move >on India or whether this was British paranoia? > >(If not here's a free dissertation topic for the youth.) > > > >Allen W. Thrasher There's a marvellous book by Peter Hopkirk called _Setting the East Ablaze_ which details Lenin's aggressive aspirations for a soviet empire in India. It is very engagingly written, and the story it tells is, as one might imagine, chilling. Published by John Murray. Dominik Wujastyk -- Dominik Wujastyk From william.douglas at wolfson.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 00:21:38 1996 From: william.douglas at wolfson.ox.ac.uk (william.douglas) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 00:21:38 +0000 Subject: Sogdian Buddhists Message-ID: <161227022717.23782.14108977913320547437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Nattier, I think, must have written something on Sogdian Buddhism. The only text of hers I have to hand, _Once Upon a Future Time (Asian Humanities Press 1991), makes reference to Sogdian materials in passing (citing E. Benveniste's 1946 edition of the Vessantara Jataka from the Sogdian & an article by N. Sims-Williams in Sprachen des Buddhismus in Zentralasien, ed. Roerhborn and Veenker 1983). I know she has done extensive work across the various Central Asian Buddhist traditions. To answer your question directly, Nattier cites the Sogdian material precisely in the context of Buddhist missionary activity. They were also responsible for the spread of Manichaeism eastwards. -wbd. >Does anybody know a reliable (quotable) publication on the religion(s) of the >Sogdians? What I need to know for sure is that they were not only Zoroastrians >but also Buddhists and that they contributed in the propagation of Buddhism. >I4ve found only one very short reference by Oskar von Hinueber so far and I >could use some more. >We4ve got lots (over 500) Sogdian inscriptions in Shatial (Upper Indus Valley, >Pakistan), some of them seemingly in connection with drawings of Stupas, and I >try to determine whether they do belong together or not. >In case Nicholas Sims-Williams reads this, sorry for not asking you directly! > > >Dr. Ditte Koenig >Heidelberg Academy of Sciences >Rock Inscriptions in the Upper Indus Valley >eMail: 0622660198.0001 at t-online.de William Douglas Wolfson College, Oxford From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Fri Feb 9 13:23:08 1996 From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Peter Gaeffke) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 08:23:08 -0500 Subject: east india company seal Message-ID: <161227022738.23782.9544840558950291827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lieber Michael, Da gerade die Debatte der Indologen auf die Geschichte der Indologie ueberschwenkt, kam mir ein Gedanke: Ich habe ein Vortragsmanuskript ueber die Geschichte der europaeischen, vornehmlich deutschen Indologie. Das ist der Vortrag der in Arjun Appadurais "Orientalism" im Vorwort erwaehnt wird. Ich habe ihn juengstens einer Zeitschaft in Indian gegeben (Studies in Camparative Literature and Aesthetics), aber das wuerde mich nicht abhalten, ihn zu der Indologie Liste zu senden.. Ich muss allerdings erst lernen, wie man einen File auf die e-mail bekommt. dann koennte ich Dir den Aufsatz erst zur Begutachtung schicken. Als naemlich im Zusammenhang mit der idiotischen Holi Debatte nach Material zur Geschichte der Indologie gefragt wurde, kam nur Indens Buch und Halfass heraus, beides Buecher in der Said Linie. Die Liste wueder wahrscheinlich so wie bei der O'Flaherty Diskussion wieder in Geschrei ausbrechen. Aber das ist mit egal. Herzliche Gruesse Peter From AmitaSarin at aol.com Fri Feb 9 13:35:37 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 08:35:37 -0500 Subject: Hafiz Message-ID: <161227022740.23782.2991000196027384958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did the name Hafiz imply a profession as a reciter or chanter in Mughal times? Jahangir mentions a Hafiz Ali Nad who was a reciter (Tuzuk, II, 69). The Ain-i-Akbari lists three chanter/musicians with that name. Also what was the difference between these men and the qissa-khwan of Babur's time? Any information or reading references on this subject will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks. Amita Sarin From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 08:54:00 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 08:54:00 +0000 Subject: WARNING Message-ID: <161227022728.23782.1104567704158479460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, >Surely this is a joke? I can't even imagine how to design a virus >like the one described. I checked this one out with our computer managers. Apparently its a well known hoax! It might be done if one finds a way to jump directories. Girish From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri Feb 9 14:46:35 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 09:46:35 -0500 Subject: Hafiz Message-ID: <161227022742.23782.15358373505586825026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 1996 AmitaSarin at aol.com wrote: > Did the name Hafiz imply a profession as a reciter or chanter in Mughal > times? Jahangir mentions a Hafiz Ali Nad who was a reciter (Tuzuk, II, 69). > The Ain-i-Akbari lists three chanter/musicians with that name. Also what > was the difference between these men and the qissa-khwan of Babur's time? Again off the top of my head, "Hafiz" is Arabic for "one who keeps." Among other things, it means someone who has memorized the whole Koran. So it is not impossible for it to have developed also the meaning of "reciter," especially a reciter of the Koran. Anyone know for sure? -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 09 96 Feb EST 09:57:21 Date: 09 Feb 96 09:57:21 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: virus Hello everyone, Thank you for the clarification and information about the good times and other rather sick jokes. Though a Sivasutra reads "jnaanam bandhah" - in this case it is quite liberating. Thanks again! Hans-Georg Tuerstig From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 10:01:58 1996 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (pgm) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 10:01:58 +0000 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022734.23782.5264292018732020807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought that being associated with chaos and the chaotic was a mark of post-modernist respectability. To sound a sharper note, the easy taking of unintended offence is surely one of the least appealing ways of following in the footsteps of the modern West. peter moore From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Thu Feb 8 21:17:48 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 10:17:48 +1300 Subject: WARNING Message-ID: <161227022704.23782.13969733809059980984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>SUBJECT: VIRUSES--IMPORTANT PLEASE READ IMMEDIATELY >> >> There is a computer virus that is being sent across the >> Internet. If you receive an e-mail message with the subject >> line "Good Times", DO NOT read the message, DELETE it Surely this is a joke? I can't even imagine how to design a virus like the one described. - & From Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Fri Feb 9 11:24:00 1996 From: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 11:24:00 +0000 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022730.23782.5229398890491871181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Regarding the debate on Holi, I must say that it has been very thought provoking to follow the debate. Unfortunately Mr Rajgopal has taken the word "chaos" personally and felt insulted. This group is primarily drawn from academics and the discussions or primarily of academic nature and even when one uses categories such as "chaos", they are never intended as personal challenges. I think it is time we understand that academic discussions can become so objective that they might often be far removed from personal sensibilities. Fortunately or unfortunately that is a fact of our academic life. All of us on this list are sensitive and sympathetic human beings and do not wish to personally insult someone. The problem here is that Dr Narahari Rao et al are using the category as a critical and analytical tool to understand what happens in the festivals such as Holi. But on the other hand Mr Rajagopal has taken it in a non-academic sense, they way we often chide our children "your room is chaotic, boy, you better clean up!" and so on. And I don't think anyone intended to treat the festival of Holi in that fashion. The word "chaos" is used to objectively describe the role reversals and other such phenomena in the context of the festival. In other words, in the context of the caste hierarchy which is so orderly and that everyone knows who's who, suddenly in the context of the festival (Holi) these ordrely roles are reversed. How else can one desribe it other than as "chaotic"? In fact, in some Goddess festivals (e.g., Gangamma, Draupadi) in the South the caste groups who occupy lower status in the hierarchy literlly mimic, redicule and imitate the upper caste groups. And I group up watching these in my home town in Andhra. Surprisingly, no one takes offense of these sudden "chaotic" role reversals. Every one seems to take it as part of the festival. Speaking of these role reversals, one of my colleagues when I was at Harvard did an excellent study of the Ramanagar festival. His name is Bo Sax and is currently teaching in Australia. I have a feeling that he subsequenly published the book. But unfortunately I lost touch with him. His study might throw some light on the festival of Holi. Does any one know what the exat title of that book is (if it was published)? The idea of role reversal could be interpreted in two ways - a) that the members of that society are in a subtle way reiforcing their caste ideology; b) that the role reversal provides public escape from time to time to the groups in the lower rung of the hierarchy without creating a situation of animosity between upper caste and the lower caste groups. It serves to function as an excellent medium of releasing the caste tensions in the Indian society. Well, I do hope, that Mr. Rajagopalan would understand that no one is interested in personally rediculing him or the festival, it is just a theoretical tool used to understand the meaning/s of the festival. Cheers Prtap Kumar ********************************************************************** Dr. P. Kumar Department of Hindu Studies & Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X 54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 031-820-2194 Fax: 031-820-2160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Dr. P. Kumar Department of Hindu Studies & Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X 54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 031-820-2194 Fax: 031-820-2160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za From Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Fri Feb 9 11:37:00 1996 From: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 11:37:00 +0000 Subject: urdu in pakistan (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022732.23782.9097717163875187892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please check with the Centre for the Study of World Religions, at Harvard University. Dr. Ali Assani used to do it there. But I am not sure now. Good luck Pratap Kumar +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Dr. P. Kumar Department of Hindu Studies & Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X 54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 031-820-2194 Fax: 031-820-2160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri Feb 9 16:47:56 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 11:47:56 -0500 Subject: Sogdian Buddhists Message-ID: <161227022746.23782.14697351218166444324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anybody know a reliable (quotable) publication on the religion(s) of the > Sogdians? What I need to know for sure is that they were not only Zoroastrians > but also Buddhists and that they contributed in the propagation of Buddhism. Checking the Columbia University Library catalogue, I find a bibliography by David A. Utz, _A survey of Buddhist Sogdian studies_ (Tokyo: Reiyukai Library, 1980). Also I suspect there is some mention of the Sogdians in Erik Zurcher's _Buddhist Conquest of China._ -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 12:56:32 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 12:56:32 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization, c. 2500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227022744.23782.6317856542388671313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman, Further to our discussion about your recent l o n g binhexed posting to INDOLOGY, I should like to thank you for your understanding attitude towards keeping INDOLOGY's bandwidth down in future. INDOLOGY members please note: It is a good idea to try to keep INDOLOGY messages to a maximum of about two screenfuls, since many net users, especially in third-world countries, pay for their email on a per-kilobyte basis. Economy of expression, apart from being an important self-discipline, makes for better reading. I have made your essay available as a document on the INDOLOGY web page http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under the menu option for "members' queries and information". I shall leave it there for a while, for anyone to consult, until disk space becomes tight. Sincerely, Dominik Wujastyk, From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Feb 9 13:00:19 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 14:00:19 +0100 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022736.23782.11418393732421149564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: >> As I read the heated discussion on Holi, a question crossed my mind: >> Is it usual or correct to describe the "Christmas Party atmosphere" >> as a reenactment of the chaos that preceded the birth of the Savior? >> -Nath Moving from popular regional literature to popular history, J.M. >Golby and A.W. Purdue in -The Making of the Modern Christmas- (Athens, GA: >University of Georgia Press, 1986) offer a fairly long menu of similar >fare: "Thus we find St Gregory Nazianzen, who died in AD 389, warning his >flock against '...feasting to excess, dancing and crowning the doors' and >urging 'the celebration of the festival after an heavenly and not after an >earthly manner'. Many a priest, prelate or minister has preached to his >congregation in similar vein, from AD 389 to AD 1986. The 'gross' >elements of Christmas -- gluttony, drunkenness and the challenge to public >order and discipline represented by indecent plays, the reversal of social >roles and dressing up as the oppositve sex or as animals -- all became the >standard targets of austere and reformist prelates." Not only did the Christian theologians have problems with this boisterous time of the year. The Roman philopher Seneca tried to remain aloof from all the hullaboloo and urged all other sensible people to do the same, and Pliny the younger even built a sound-proof room where he could spend the Saturnalia without being disturbed by the noise and feasting outside. Why are intellectuals such wet blankets? Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From magier at columbia.edu Fri Feb 9 19:04:24 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 14:04:24 -0500 Subject: Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization, c. 2500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227022748.23782.11206646030293292391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, a minor logistical suggestion: > I have made your essay available as a document on the INDOLOGY web page > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html > under the menu option for "members' queries and information". I shall > leave it there for a while, for anyone to consult, until disk space > becomes tight. To make it easier for readers to navigate directly to a given online resource (such as Dr. Kalyanaraman's essay), it would be better to cite the direct URL for the resource in question, rather than the superordinate containing structure. This, in this case, I would cite the location of the essay as http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indus.html and if I wanted also to get people familiar with the location of the INDOLOGY web page in general (and its USER QUERIES section, etc.), I would add a line such as: "This is one of many resources available through the INDOLOGY web page, which is located at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html" thanks. (And thanks for the Indology web pages, which are great). David Magier From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Feb 9 21:04:25 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (John Gardner) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 15:04:25 -0600 Subject: Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization, c. 2500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227022750.23782.4455135807488874752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> one additional point- for users without snazzy grpahics, netscape, netshark, etc.-- they might try the same web address listed below, just put the word "lynx" and a space before it once they've logged on to their plain old ordinary humble e-mail server. lynx is a nice way to browze text on the web without all the time of downloading buttons, bells, and often-superfluous graphics. one's tab key will move from URL to URL, then a simple press of "return" activates the link. it's fast, especially if text munching is all you need, and pricey grpahics-supporting software/hardware/home connections are not available to you. john robert gardner university of iowa On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, David Magier wrote: > Dominik, > a minor logistical suggestion: > > > I have made your essay available as a document on the INDOLOGY web page > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html > > under the menu option for "members' queries and information". I shall > > leave it there for a while, for anyone to consult, until disk space > > becomes tight. > > To make it easier for readers to navigate directly to a given online > resource (such as Dr. Kalyanaraman's essay), it would be better to > cite the direct URL for the resource in question, rather than the > superordinate containing structure. This, in this case, I would cite > the location of the essay as > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indus.html > > and if I wanted also to get people familiar with the location of the > INDOLOGY web page in general (and its USER QUERIES section, etc.), I > would add a line such as: > > "This is one of many resources available through the INDOLOGY web > page, which is located at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html" > > thanks. (And thanks for the Indology web pages, which are great). > David Magier > > From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Fri Feb 9 23:24:32 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 17:24:32 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022752.23782.9640181887020467823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear bridgman at aol.com, WE are all friends. WE all want to learn rogether . WE are all capabale and are basically good at heart . Let there be no enmity among us .Would you kindly give a few days to tell about holy . I would ask an expert who " experienced Holi" in the proper light and ask that person to reply your question . In all these religious matters experience is an important factor . deprived of that experience factor trying to enjoy a discussion on religious topic is like trying to enjoy the crushed sugar cane straw devoid of its sweet juice . But I do appreciate the understanding we all get that to promote a correc ect understanding of a religion or society we should avoid using unsavoury and demeaning descriptive words about that society no matter how long that word has been wrongly used to describe the society . only those words that describe the society correctly should be used . Thanks for all of you for your kind understanding . M.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:01:19 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 18:01:19 -0600 Subject: Holi Discussion Appreciation Message-ID: <161227022754.23782.16289086768977176670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear cohen , I said that the meaning of the word chaos in mathematics is different from what it means socially. it has a bad connotation socially . so it should not be used to describe a society unless it is proved already that that is the nature of the society .m.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:08:55 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 18:08:55 -0600 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022756.23782.11987050710003677927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear lars martin fosse , hiduism is strong and lives to-day in spite of all attacks on it from outside only because it is based upon strong morals and not chaos. die-hard missionaries and intolerant people look only for chaos i hinduism for their interest . but it is not true to say that thatis the real nature of hindu festivals. if you would understand christmas in the light of christian holy principles then kindly try to do the same for other religions too . M.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:20:10 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 18:20:10 -0600 Subject: The "Limits of Language" Message-ID: <161227022758.23782.17211833382333298688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear dan white, It is not insult anybody. But since you want to know about holy academically it can be simply asked ' can we learn about holi '. there is no need to attach the damaging word ' chaos 'in the description. Holy is not anything to do with varna or caste. Many die- hard missionaries have tried to misrepresent and wound the the feelings of many many good hindus. as you have said you have met (andwill meet) many good hindus . the hindus will help you learn about holi . the only request i have to make is not to be derogatory in the description of hinduism though it has been wrongly practised for masny many years .Let us try to appreciate each other,not try to find out ways to put down each other , let us study together and learn to use respectable words to describe each other in culture person and in every way . That way friendship will grow. i am lookiing for the growth i the correct understanding among indologists about hinduisms and hence i think it is neccessary to use the correct words in the description for otherwise the very purpose of being scientific is defeated . m.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:35:49 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 18:35:49 -0600 Subject: Film on Holi Message-ID: <161227022759.23782.8500130652451966796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear kumar , as i have saidmany times before the word chaos does have negative connotation. it is just like any bad word used against individuals. as you said , if the father says to the child yur is room is in chaos it is not complementary to the child . Since that word does have a negative connotation it is wrog to use such descriptions for hinduism . again to bring caste relationship as an important factor in holy description is not correct .it is only a festival with good meaning . m.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:42:07 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 18:42:07 -0600 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022761.23782.7314510251284774548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear moore , It is not innocent when someone insists on using abusive terminology afterhaving been pointed out . Would you accept if a person uses abusive word against you and then says that it is all done with innocence. It is extremely unscientific attitude to insist on using incorrect and abusive description against any society without proofs . Many westerners did it and do it against non-west societies . Some have stopped such practices after having been strongly reprimanded by other societies. it is not scientific to use abusive words in a description of a society without justification . it is prejudice to do so without proof . M.rajagopalan 51 From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Sat Feb 10 01:07:32 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 20:07:32 -0500 Subject: Netiquette Message-ID: <161227022763.23782.13013969870605381627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following recommendations, circulated elsewhere, may be of interest to scholars on the list: Post when you have a question; can answer a question posed on the list; or can clarify, expand, challenge, or forward the argument. Quote only directly relevant portions of previous posts in your contribution. Send scholarly posts, not polemical or pious ones. Engage in scholarly debate, not personal attacks. Use the subject line to indicate the subject of your post. Change subject lines when you are changing the direction of the conversation. Put your name and e-mail address at the end of your message. Gene Thursby >?From Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE 09 1996 Feb +0100 19:05:00 Date: 09 Feb 1996 19:05:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Sogdian Buddhists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: indology-l at pwyz.RHEIN.DE David Utz published in the Reiyukai Library, Tokyo, a short bibliographic survey of the Buddhist materials in Sogdian: David Utz:_A Survey of Buddhist Sogdian Studies_. (Bibliographia Philologica Buddhica. Series Minor. III). Tokyo 1978 BTW there are also Christian texts in Sogdian. \bye Peter Wyzlic -- RUN-TIME ERROR 011: UNEXPECTED END OF PATIENCE. From asalgia at students.uiuc.edu Sat Feb 10 05:20:01 1996 From: asalgia at students.uiuc.edu (Amardeep Salgia) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 23:20:01 -0600 Subject: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022766.23782.5123443415887883949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:32:10 +0800 From: Tushar Shah Subject: Re: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please (fwd) ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From asavla at scf.usc.edu Wed Feb 7 10:36:28 1996 Subject: Re: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 8468 X-Lines: 210 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:05:05 -0600 (CST) From: spv at umr.edu Subject: Re: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:09:39 -0600 (CST) From: Ajay Jagannathan Subject: Re: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please (fwd) Subject: HELP SAVE A LIFE !! [1] (fwd) **************** Dear Friends, My name is Vrushali Ranadive and I am a 23 year old woman of Indian background. I am asking for your help in saving my life. Last June 1994, just three weeks after graduating from college, I was diagnosed with chronic myelogenous leukemia (CML). Many leukemia patients are cured with a bone marrow transplant which involves receiving marrow from a matched donor. I wasunable to find a match within my family so I have turned my hopes to the National Marrow Donor Program's (NMDP) volunteer donor registry. In April 1995 a perfect match was located for me through NMDP and I thought I would have a chance at being cured. Instead my worst fears came true -the person decided not to proceed with the donation which could save my life. Withouth a donor I don't have a chance to be cured; but you could help give me another chance! There are two things you can do to help me in my quest to live a long and healthy life. First, we are trying to locate this "lost" donor and the best way to do that is to widely publicize my situation in the hope that the person will hear my story and reconsider. Because NMDP follows certain confidentiality rules, we are unable to know the name of this donor and establish direct contact. However, we may have a chance at reaching the donor or someone who knows him/her through this appeal. Please forward this information and/or home page address to your relatives and Indian friends across the country. Second, you can help me and all other Indians looking for marrow donors by getting more Indians (or for that matter all South Asians) to join the NMDP registry of volunteers. This includes getting yourself typed and joining the registry, as well as holding drives through your community, religious/cultural organization, or college to get more Indians in the NMDP registry. The best chances for finding a match are within the same ethnic community and presently there are so few Indians in the registry that we are having a difficult time finding matches. Currently there are more than 10 Indians in the US looking for matches, none of whom are having any luck. Adding more people to the registry will improve our chances of finding a donor, and may give us the life-saving miracle match we need. I encourage you to become involved in this cause which is not only important to me, but to the South Asian community at large. It is up to everyone to come together and help one another. Remember, through your efforts you may be able to accomplish the most extraordinary thing -- help save someone's life! Please do not hesitate to call me at home in the evenings at (212)697-2928 or send me email at ranadive at usa.pipeline.com for more information regarding what you can do to help, or for information about the NMDP registry. More information regarding the procedure, donor centers or upcoming drives can be found on the World-Wide Web at http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ THE GIFT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE IS THE GREATEST GIFT OF ALL -- THE GIFT OF LIFE! Thank you, Vrushali. EMAIL: ranadive at usa.pipeline.com WWW : http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ Ph : (212)697-2928 ****************** ----- End Included Message ----- ----- End Included Message ----- From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sat Feb 10 12:11:49 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 06:11:49 -0600 Subject: Indecency on Indology-Net? Message-ID: <161227022768.23782.5636094092984823350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Telcom Bill recently passed by the U.S. 104th Congress and signed by President Clinton is vague in the extreme and an obvious violation of freedom of expression. What does this have to do with Indology, you may ask? Especially our European colleagues may think that this bill is only sadly laughable and has no application to them. Think again! Allow me to quote from the Telcom Bill, Section 1462 of title 18:, "Whoever brings into the United States. . . or knowingly uses any . . . interactive computer service. . . for carriage in interstate or foreign commerce-- "(a) any obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, motion-picture film, paper, letter, writing, print, or other matter of indecent character; or "(b) any obscene, lewd, lascivious or filthy phonograph recording, electrical transcription, or other article or thing. . ." (end quote) What is your definition of "lewd and lascivious" and the particularly precise term "filthy"? Many users of the Internet darkened their Web Pages to protest the Telcom bill, many have changed the backgrounds of their Web Pages to black and the script to white, symbolic of a period mourning this attack on freedom of expression. Discussion groups of all persuasions are attempting forms of civil disobedience to protest this bill, which is a blatant travesty to the freedom of speech guaranteed by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Several law suites have already been filed, and it is obvious (at least to me) that this bill be thrown out by the Judicial Branch of the government. (What I find hard to understand, is why the law makers and chief executive of this country would pass a law that is this vague and in violation of the Bill of Rights?!) But, what effect could this have on the Indology-Net? Think about it: If an Indologist in Holland, Denmark, India, or another foreign country "brings into the United States, . . . . [via] interactive computer service . . . any obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy . . . letter, . . . or other matter of indecent character; or . . . any obscene, lewd, lascivious or filthy . . . electrical transcription. . ." they could be subject to prosecution. The maximum fine is $250,000 and two years in jail. I am sure that my definition of "obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy" is in great contrast to those of Pat Robertson, a T.V. evangelist, avid Hindu basher, and representative of the Christian Far-Right or Bob Dole, the conservative Republican Senator from Kansas. Individuals such as these and the writers of the Telcom Bill, would undoubtedly find the statuary at Indian sites such as Khajuraho to be "lewd and lascivious." As a means of symbolic protest, and a method of non-cooperation, which has such powerful roots in the Subcontinent, may I suggest a thread for the Indology Discussion Group? Re: Indecent Lascivious Iconography In my travels through India, while visiting temples such as Khajuraho, Konarak, and numerous other sites where erotic sculpture is depicted, I marveled at the sexual explicitness of the art and wondered as to the symbolism of these powerful and very erotic artistic expressions. What do they mean? The carvings, though aesthetically pleasing, are even more erotic and sexually explicit than much of what is considered to be pornography, which is the target of the Telcom Bill. I have heard various arguments espoused to explain the erotic or tantic iconography: 1) "It was meant to be purely symbolic, the iconographical representation of the union of the male and female principle--i.e. Siva/Shakti, etc." 2) "It was meant as a visual "test" for the practitioner or Sadhu. To help keep the Holy Man (or Woman) on the Path, by challenging his or her mental commitment to celibacy and renunciation. . . by looking at these erotic representations, they are forced to overcome their desirous response to the sexually stimulating and explicit art." 3) "It is an indicator that Indian social mores of that period had declined and a period of decadence influenced temple/art patrons." 4) "It is proof that women in ancient India were not veiled, that they enjoyed life, scantily clad and expressing robust sexuality." There are other exegesises concerning the meaning and social context of the erotic art of India which is found not only at the above mentioned sites but in Pahari miniature painting and numerous other artistic traditions in Hinduism and Buddhism. Yab-Yam is certainly symbolic, but that does not diminish its basically erotic expression. The carvings at Khajuraho include a wide variety of sexual positions of copulating couples and even bestiality and group sex. Could the above discussion be considered "lewd and lascivious" under the vague definition in the Telcom Bill? Would sending a response to this query be considered illegal under the new legislation? What if Indology posted scanned reproductions of these ancient images at their web site? Would we find our European colleagues, who maintain this list, prevented from visiting the U.S. due to fear of arrest and incarceration as a result of bringing into the "United States. . . an obscene, lewd, lascivious picture of indecent character." Certainly, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, a Christian missionary in U.P. in the1880s would view this Tantric/erotic art differently than would a Dharma Bum of the 1960s, or an Indologist in 1995. I would greatly appreciate the perspectives of Indologists concerning the interpretation of the pervasiveness and explicitness of erotic art found in Indian iconography and especially its symbolic meaning. This is a serious question and meant not only as a form of protest against the idiocy of the Telcom Bill but as a genuine inquiry, since none of the above mentioned explanations are satisfactory. Thank you, Yvette C. Rosser UT Austin ---------------- "One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" --Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 14:41:18 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 08:41:18 -0600 Subject: Indecency on Indology-Net? Message-ID: <161227022770.23782.1674095872338722048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rosser, Your information on the recent coming bill is interesting. I have seen khajuraho myself. Inspite of the consistent efforts of many westerners to make khajuraho cheap and in spite of their description of khajuraho as exotic the real understanding that people should have and spread about khajuraho is that it stands for prinicples noble and lofty . How do we know this and why there is need for correction for the erroneous and damaging writings consistently written by many weternes since some british colonialist wrote in a humiliating fashion about khajuraho as exotic is the following among many verses in sanskrit written on the walls of khajuraho : vinaya shobate vidya kulam seelena shobate nityayva sobate rajyam kulamseelena sobhate. That means : The sign of an educated person is the humility that he displays. The sign of a good family is the good character that its members exhibit. The kingdom is for the people only when it gives justice to all . The sign of a praiseworthy hand is the help and charity it gives . Please spread this message on khajuraho and not the incorrect and erroneous description such as exotic for khajuraho m.rajagopalan . From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 10 09:04:13 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 09:04:13 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of South Asia Message-ID: <161227022765.23782.11272449717189292356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Witzel, My essay has Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization c. 3000 B.C. has now been kept in the indology site, thanks to Prof. Wujastyk. Kindly refer to http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under the menu option for "members' queries and information". I would deem it a privilege to receive your comments and suggestions. Please also feel free to pass the word around. We need a lot of help to understand the river and the civilization she sustained. Dr. kalyanaraman. > >Information about Ganweriwala (and about the other 4 great cities of the >Indus civilization: M. H., Dholavira in Cutch (with the first giant size, >though seal-like inscription! suggested reading 500 miles to Mohenjo >Daro...) and about related questions) can be found in several archaeol. >chapters (by Erdosy, Shaffer, Kenoyer, etc.) in:: > >George Erdosy, (ed) The Indo-Aryans of Ancient >South Asia. language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, Berlin/New York (de >Gruyter), 1995 (released in Nov.). > >Studies; ; the 2nd vol, a handbook of Pali Lit. by O. v. Hinueber is in >press>. > > > > > > > > > From unknown at example.com Sat Feb 10 16:30:41 1996 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 10:30:41 -0600 Subject: Palmleaf manuscripts - Tamil literature Message-ID: <161227022773.23782.14341033523259861593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Feb. 10, 1996 Caring of Palm-leaf Manuscripts - Tamil literature ************************************************** Two old poems from Tamil literature come to my mind. U. V. Saminathaiyar who edited the Sangam classics for the first time in print edited a messenger poem on Madurai Siva. (UVS, maturaic cokkan^Atar tamizviTu tUtu, 1930, Madras, I edition. 7 reprints were made after). The heroine sends "Tamil" as her messenger to her Lord. There are few couplets describing Tamil as a girl. One of them is, manjaL kuLippATTi maiyiTTu muppAlum minjap pukaTTa mikavaLarn^tAy! 1) As for a girl, the meaning is: When you were a baby, you enjoyed taking showers with turmeric (manjaL) smeared all over. decorated using cosmetics (mai/anjana) and consumed milk/juices taht are essential for healthy growth. 2) As for the sweet Tamil, the meaning is: All your treasures/literatures in palmleaves are protected with turmeric, the letters on palmleaves are coated with soot (mai/anjana) to make the writing more visible, and in the early stages of life, Valluvar's KuRaL nourished you! (muppAl is another name for the famous TirukkuRaL because it is divided into three sections.) The second example comes from ParanjOti Munivar's tiruviLaiyATal purANam (16th century?). The local stala purANam for Madurai. (Dr. William Harman translated parts of this work.) Here the imagery is grand and beautiful. cEya tArakai varuNamAt tITTiya vAnam Aya ETTinai iruLenum anjanam taTavi tUya vALn^ilA enumveN tUcinAl tuTaippAN pAya vElaiyil muLaittanan panimatik kaTavuL. Siva appears in the sea. The crescent moon on his head sends out lunar rays to remove the darkness of the night sky and the stars shine. It is like The poet using a soft, white cloth to remove the carbon (anjanam) from the face of palmleaf manuscript and the letters look bright! Here, the comparison is: sky ------> palmleaf stars -----> written letters darkness of the night ---> carbon smear moon's rays ----> soft cloth ************* Tamil has 40000 stone/copper plate inscriptions from second century B.C onwards. Karandai Tamil sangam plates of Rajandra Chola (1050 A.D.) are the largest written inscription anywhere in the world from premodern times. Tamil, other than Sanskrit, possesses a large number of manuscripts. Many of the Tamil manuscripts remain unpublished. Out of a total of 25000, there are about 2500 Tamil manuscripts scattered in many libraries all over Europe. This century's great Tamil scholars never travelled to Europe & they knew little or no English. Some Tamil sangam work or atleast few important prabandham/talapurANam will be existing somewhere, hitherto unpublished or thought to have been lost. Hope some Western scholars in the future will come forward to study Tamil and help to preserve/publish the Tamil manuscripts. The following books give nice writings on how to read from palmleaves. It is very different that reading print! 1) K. C. Chellamuthu, International catalogue of Tamil palmleaf manuscripts, 5 vol. 1995, Tamil university, Thanjavur. 2) A descriptive catalogue of Tamil palm-leaf manuscripts, The first 3 volumes in 6 parts has come out, Madras. 3) G. John Samuel, Palmleaf manuscripts in tamil and their preservation, p. 85-100, Journal of the Institute of Asian studies, XIII, 1, Sep. 1995. 4) pU. cuppiramaNiyam, cuvaTi iyal, IITS, 1991, 328 p. 5) irA. iLangkumaran, cuvaTikkalai, Salem, 1991, 380 p. 6) ti. vE. kOpAlaiyar, tamizh ezhuttum ETum, Thanjavur, 1990, 68 p. Have a good day. Yours, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 10 17:01:34 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 12:01:34 -0500 Subject: WHOSE VEDA? -- WHAT VEDA !! Message-ID: <161227022775.23782.7186819320810307072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just as Dominik recently wondered about the neo-brahmana homology established between the WEST and the US, I was rather puzzled about the Hinduja Center`s conference announcement `WHOSE VEDA`. Pondering the question for a while, I rather think, we have first to ask `WHAT VEDA`? In general, I think, we should be very happy that finally, after some 75 years of neglect, also persons who do not belong to the rather narrow and increasingly sub-specializing band of Vedic scholars have begun to take interest (dare I say: to `discover`?) these oldest decipherable texts of India, -- and of course, that all of this is done on a grand scale within the 4 million dollar framework of the Hinduja Institute at Columbia U., New York. However, I write here as the whole announcement, just as the Hinduja programs in general, talk AROUND the Veda and not about it. In fact, the `study groups` study anything but the Veda -- which was the original intent of the Hinduja donation: the study of `Veda and Vedanta`. Now we read: `` a) deepening and advancing research on Indic traditions of learning [B<<< from Veda ``sacred knowledge`` to learning in general??>>> ; b) addressing practical problems in the modern world, especially those that come within the purview of science and medicine <<< from herbal/psychosomatic medicine in the Atharvaveda and geometry in the Sulbasutras to modern science?>>>; c) advancing the causes of tolerance and interreligious understanding <<>> `` Since no `study group` studies the Veda itself -- they even have conflicting definitions of it -- they talk about, what Heesterman used to call: `DAS GROSSE LALULA`, or, to speak with one of the greatest scholars on the Veda, W. Caland, in Dutch: not OVER but OMTRENT de Veda. The list of conference speakers is indicative of the fact that, with one exeption perhaps, none of them has written on the problems touched on above, and that the conference will revolve around a big vortex of S`UNYATAA, the big BLACK HOLE around which various galaxies (the ``study groups``) orbit, rather vaguely attracted by the apauruseya force of the anirukta and unsolved issue of the Veda itself. In the same vein, since the Hinduja `groups` hardly include any Vedic specialists, their announcements and circulars bristle with misunderstandings and with `traditional` misconceptions about the Vedas which better get addressed before the work is completely derailed. Of course, I have voiced those concerns in camera, even some years ago, without effect, as the course was already set. I also remember similar discussions on ``Indology`` some two years ago by persons belonging to the Indian community in the US . Yet, the program has continued on its pre-set track. Therefore, in the spirit of Dominik`s intermittent warnings about undesirable developments in the British academic world, -- this is part of our work if we do not want to be completely shut up in our various ivory towers -- I now voice my concerns about this one in North America. For the moment, the following note is, -- expectedly, isn`t it --- an entirely philological, boring, even `grammatically correct` look at the WHOSE VEDA conference announcement (`philology` here defined as `slow reading`). ENJOY! ============================================================================== durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 496 8571 EJVS-list at shore.net email: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (On WWW: http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs ============================================================================== From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 10 17:02:01 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 12:02:01 -0500 Subject: WHOSE VEDA? - Bhaashya Message-ID: <161227022777.23782.17439996539254951757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ``WHOSE VEDA`` or : WHAT VEDA? -- some comments : ================================ ONLY FOR THOSE WHOSE ATTENTION SPAN CAN BEAR IT, read on! My ad hoc comments in << >>. PuurvapakSa: THE VEDAS, which include the Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, and Upanisad sections of the Rig, Sama, Atharva, and Yajur collections have functioned both as revelation and as manuals of ritual for the many Hindu traditions. << TippaNI: G.I.: we can quibble : Rk, saaman, yajuS, aatharva-<-aaGgirasa->-- a ``Yajur`` does not exist, -- so far, in Sanskrit >> << uttarapakSa: There simply is no manual of ritual to be found in the ENTIRE Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka and Upanisad sections of the Veda --- with the possible exception of a rather brief Mahaavrata chapter in KA). The `manuals` are found in the Sutras, which the working group do not even include among the Vedic texts at all, following the traditional medieval perception of Smrti and Sruti-- but they call it ``5th Veda!`` Where is *that* done in Hindu texts?? -- It is time to break through this veil of post-Vedic Maayaa, finally; see below >> PuurvapakSa: Notions of the unchanging, immutable, eternal sound of the Vedas have coexisted with a pattern of dynamic interpretation whereby the perceived meaning of the Veda has been made accessible and fitting to the changing times and places. While some sections of the Vedic texts and injunctions have been recited and acted upon without major changes for at least the last two thousand years, the process of understanding and decoding the Vedas has not been static. << TippaNI: eternal sound:: of course, only if recited correctly! --The Vedic Suktas, Brahmanas etc. do not exist somewhere in outer space, at least not until recently... That is a medieval, half-Tantric notion again...>> << uttarapakSa: perceived meaning: by whom?? the Mimamsaka? The Vedic commentaries by Brahmins for Brahmins are much later and do not affect `people`>> <> PuurvapakSa: While the Vedas themselves assert the force of a "unifying" truth underlying the hymns and the philosophical speculation, this truth has been interpreted in a manner that was fitting and applicable to any given generation. <> <> PuurvapakSa: The process of interpretation and making the message relevant to any generation has been at the heart of Vedic hermeneutics making the message relevant to any generation has been at the heart of Vedic hermeneutics. <> PuurvapakSa: Despite the composition of several works which have been more popular among the masses than the Vedic revelation, the theoretical, ritual, and epistemological significance of the Vedas has been unquestioned. << uttarapakSa: Really, what about Buddhists, Carvakas, Jains, Virasaivas etc . etc.? This follows, again, the traditional Hindu view but in an even more limited way than that of the Sarvadarsana-Samgraha>> PuurvapakSa: Thus, the highest honor given to a religious text which was important to any religious tradition was to call that work the "fifth Veda." << uttarapakSa: any tradition ? even any Hindu trad.?? -- this reads like B.K. Smith`s 4R book -- what about the Virasaiva, or Bhakti, or Kashmirian Sivaism??>> <<5th Veda: examples appreciated. Where is one`s own tradition REALLY called the ``pancama`` veda? I have the impression that this term largely functions as catch-all device for the ``working group``>> PuurvapakSa: In the last two thousand years several such texts have claimed this title. The fifth Veda comprehends questions of legitimacy, legacy and spiritual authenticity. Many injunctive (ritual) , mythological (Itihasa-Purana), scientific, devotional and even biographical texts proclaim themselves to be the fifth Veda, breaking through the traditional distinction between sruti and smrti. << uttarapakSa: injunctive (ritual) :: which one ?? This seeems to be the Hinduja Inst. misunderstanding of the Srauta and other Vedic Sutras: the ritual texts, the Vedic Sutras were NOT conceived as Smrti by the Vedic texts themselves, check also Panini. They were called, even in Sruti texts, ``kalpa`` on one level with the Brahmanas and the Mantra/verses, Rk, -- see Katha B. The distinction between Sruti and Smrti again is a later innovation/invention of Hindu tradition. The working group repeats all the standard medieval and modern pre-conceptions without really knowing what they are talking about -- the Vedas >> PuurvapakSa: The key to breaking through the categories of sruti and smrti is the public recognition of the authenticity and authority of certain texts. For example, Bharata Muni, author of the Natya Sastra, the primary text on the theory and practice of drama, relies on the unprecedented nature of his enterprise to bring it into the orbit of primary text on the theory and practice of drama, relies on the "Veda." << TippaNI: the author Bh. muni?? how do they know that ? Bharata Muni has no more claim to be the author than Vyasa as the author/redactor of the Vedas/Epic/Puranas>> PuurvapakSa: But Natya Sastra does not take this identification lightly or simply analogically, but pleads its case by illustrating that the Vedas themselves fall under the purview of natya. The Puranas employ several arguments in order to prove their identity as Veda. One is that they are infallible because the supreme Lord is the very embodiment of the Veda. The Mahabharata, one of the two major Hindu epics, was consistently called the "fifth Veda" because it was a storehouse of religious and secular knowledge, both theoretical and pragmatic. <> PuurvapakSa: Vernacular compositions in the south, especially the Tiruvaymoli ("Sacred Utterances") of Nammalvar in the ninth century and the Periya Puranam, a hagiography of saints who were devotees of Siva, were also considered to be equivalent to the Vedas. In the Kashmir Saiva tradition several agamic texts functioned as the Veda. << uttarapakSa: as the Veda?? No, they are *superior* to the Veda ...>> PuurvapakSa: These texts did not make even a cursory attempt to imitate or reproduce the Sanskrit Vedas in any way, refer to ritual nor were they commentaries on the Veda. <> PuurvapakSa: These texts did not make even a cursory attempt to imitate or reproduce the Sanskrit Vedas in any way, nor were they commentaries on the Vedic texts. << uttarapakSa: of course, they *do*, see above; frequently they even use Vedic mantras!!>> PuurvapakSa: They lay claim to the title "Veda" because the people who venerated these works thought of them as containing the wisdom embodied in the original Sanskrit Vedas. << uttarapakSa: Often, rather, superseding that of the Vedas!!>> PuurvapakSa: The concept of a fifth Veda expresses the desire for any given community to negotiate the meaning of sruti and mediate it to their milieu. << uttarapakSa: Aho, bata! That is a real insight! How else do you latch on, if you want to do so, to a given, in case the Vedic/Hindu tradition? Certainly not by inventing something new and CALLING it NEW, non-/a-/contra-traditional, etc. >> PuurvapakSa: It is not just within the Hindu tradition that the Veda of "Truth" is important. Both Christians and Muslims in South India have appropriated the notion of "Veda" and consider their scriptures to be revelation. The Veda is the vehicle to know the supreme, and in this sense both the Bible and the Qur'an function as the "Veda." << TippaNI: Well, since Veda means `knowledge` -- so why not any scientific or other treatise?? The Ezourvedam...That would have been worth mentioning... Or, from the Garbhopanisad (not mentioned) to a Malla-Purana ... unfortunately not yet a Malla-Veda, and to the recent `discovery` of `Vedic mathematics` in ONE manuscript (since, vanished!), allegedly forming an appendix to the 72 appendixes (Aatharva PariziSTaani) of the Atharvaveda...>> PuurvapakSa: These are just some of the ways in which post-Vedic texts and traditions appropriated the authority and authenticity of the Vedas. This is not to say that the Vedic "tradition" suffered serious rupture, for this extension is surely a natural result of a dynamic religious and literary tradition that encouraged innovation while not losing sight of its extension is surely a natural result of a dynamic religious and literary tradition that encouraged innovation while not losing sight of its origins. <> <> << TippaNI: lit. trad. *encouraged* innovation: ??? where?? and by whom?? I am eager to learn... perhaps in the rather limited sense of writing another - Sanskrit(!) -- commentary (for whom?) on a certain topic, yes.>> PuurvapakSa: In other words: How does an understanding of Veda in its different contexts lead us to a better understanding of these religious communities ... SIDDHAANTA: << IN SHORT: What about first trying to understand what the Veda is and what it has to say -- before comparing its empty shell or emblem, its gandharvanagara, in the fashion critiqued above, to other traditions?? ----- Not to speak of the still endless task of properly editing for the first time / re-editing badly published Vedic texts, translating *un*-translated Vedic texts and studying the many untouched Vedic texts, recitations, rituals -- and the latter means hard field work, not ivory tower pralaapa... sorry, ``discourse``... thus: graamaM/(vaidika)guruM/(hastalikhitam)pustakaM gaccha, ziSya, --- alaM vizavidyaalaya-pralaapena! // iti vaartam // ============================================================================== durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University witzel at husc3.harvard.edu From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 20:12:39 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 15:12:39 -0500 Subject: Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization, c. 2500 B.C. Message-ID: <161227022771.23782.7253787516315291925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:25:12 GMT David Magier wrote: >Dominik, >a minor logistical suggestion: [...] Excellent suggestions. Thanks, David, I'll do that in future. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Sat Feb 10 20:37:59 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 15:37:59 -0500 Subject: Indecent Lascivious Iconography Message-ID: <161227022779.23782.15207279613839345676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I respond to one tangent along the thread proposed by Y. Rosser, specifically to the comment re "eye of the beholder, i.e, that: > Certainly, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, a Christian missionary > in U.P. in the1880s would view this Tantric/erotic art differently than > would a Dharma Bum of the 1960s, or an Indologist in 1995. Comment: A true Arya in the activist, radical, or Lekh Ram wing of the Arya Samaj (at least at any time from the 1880s through the 1920s) would have -- and did -- react to most religious use of imagery in India, and especially to murti puja and all tantric imagery, as keenly and negatively as any Christian missionary or tobacco missionary such as Senator Jesse Helms. There are little-known polemical writings against "puranic Hinduism" by Arya Samaj authors that include -intentionally- obscene illustrations that are intended to inflame the sentiments of their readers against images and religious practices presumable connected with them. In short, "reformers" of Indian descent in India have in some instances propagated and actively debased what they sought to efface. International, cooperative scholarly study of these phenomena, however, would be limited if not prevented by the new USA legislation. Gene Thursby From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sun Feb 11 00:38:11 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 18:38:11 -0600 Subject: Indecent Lascivious Iconography? Message-ID: <161227022781.23782.10929717567226178312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Rajagopalan, > description of Khajuraho as exotic I did not call it "exotic." I called it "erotic." Which it is. It is certainly not "cheap" and whomever would ever call it cheap, would think that Michelangelo David is "cheap" because he is depicted with his genitalia exposed. (I hesitate to use the word "penis," uncertain of the limitations imposed by the newly passed Telcom Bill.) >Khajuraho stands for principles noble and lofty I think that this is true. It is rich with symbolism. >some British colonialist wrote in a humiliating fashion about Khajuraho as >exotic To him, from his Victorian retentiveness, Khajuraho most likely was quite "exotic!" He had probably never seen another human being naked in his life. (We can still use the word "naked" can't we?) To me, it is not "exotic" or "bad" or somehow "lewd and immoral!" It is beautiful, intriguing, paradigmatic and full of life. It is also a beautiful and compelling expression of religious art, which should be discussed in a respectful manner, devoid of judgmental, culturally prejudiced perspectives. >Please spread this message on Khajuraho and not the incorrect and >erroneous description such as exotic I guess from where I sit here in the USA, I would suspect that most people, unfamiliar with Indian art, would consider the carvings at Khajuraho and the erotic art found in Pahari Miniatures, to be quite "exotic". Hopefully, Indologists would see its cultural and historical context, and thus it would not be seen as "exotic." It would, however, still be "erotic." Yvette C. Rosser UT Austin ---------------- "One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" --Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. From wagers at computek.net Sun Feb 11 01:42:21 1996 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 19:42:21 -0600 Subject: Analogies to Kabbalah Message-ID: <161227022785.23782.12116349996477108545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Jewish myth, the Golem is created by rearranging the letters of the Torah. In the Kabbalah, the Sefiroth appear in the form of Primal Man; the letters of the divine name are the image of the Ancient of Ancients; the Torah is considered as a living organism. I am interested in analogous concepts in the Vedas, Puranas, etc. For example, a god being the embodiment of the Veda; the letters of scripture being related to living creatures, deities, or the cosmos as to giving it life, form, definition, body, etc. through their organization or arrangement; the Vedas as a living thing; the letters of the scriptures being the mystical name of a god, etc. If anyone can help with general or specific references, it will be much appreciated. I have no background in Indology. Thx, Will From AmitaSarin at aol.com Sun Feb 11 01:05:30 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 20:05:30 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227022783.23782.13121708014764893981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Yvette Rosser's message on Indecency on Indology Net: I have seen but not studied the illustrative program on the temples of Khajuraho. Like Yvette, I have also wondered about the meaning of the sexually explicit carvings on the walls and have not totally bought the traditional explanations. The recent discussions of "chaos" (dare I bring this up again!?) on the Indology-Net have brought another idea to mind. Could these scenes of group sex and bestiality be the iconographic representation of "chaos" as a precursor to order or the rightness of things. As I understand it, these scenes are usually on the outside and bases of temples. So much in the Hindu way of life - caste system, ascriptive role-relationships in families, rituals and so on - seem to be an attempt to maintain order. Vishnu has incarnated himself everytime the order of the universe and the rightness of things have been threatened by demons and the forces of chaos. Are the scenes on the outside of temples a representation of the state of the world before the gods restore order? Just an idea for further discussion. Amita Sarin From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sun Feb 11 08:50:55 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 00:50:55 -0800 Subject: WHOSE VEDA? - Bhaashya Message-ID: <161227022786.23782.10410901681153806615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel wrote: > Malla-Veda, and to the recent `discovery` of `Vedic mathematics` > in ONE manuscript (since, vanished!), allegedly forming an appendix > to the 72 appendixes (Aatharva PariziSTaani) of the > Atharvaveda...>> A clarification - I don't think Sri Bharati Krishna Tirtha ever claimed to have found any manuscript containing the sUtras of "vedic mathematics". As far as I am aware of, he wrote down his sUtras, after a period of meditation. As such, the "discovery" that is mentioned in the preface to the available editions of "Vedic Mathematics", is one of "mystical intuition". There is no talk of having discovered a manuscript of the atharva veda that has since vanished. What is said to have been lost in an accident (fire ?) is the collection of unpublished sUtras that suposedly cover more advanced fields like calculus. The assertion that "vedic mathematics" is in one of the Atharva pariSishTas seems to be the standard one by which various assorted subjects are ascribed to this veda. One may take it or leave it, as per one's predilections. Sometimes I think that even those who make such assertions with regard to the atharva veda want you to take their claims with a pinch of salt! Sri Bharati Krishna Tirtha was a Sankaracharya of Puri maTh, and was well respected as an advaitin. It may be pertinent, therefore, to understand how advaita vedAnta views Sruti, and the process by which Sruti was first revealed to the mantra-drashTas. But that is a completely different issue of mImAmsA. S. Vidyasankar From kichenas at math.umn.edu Sun Feb 11 14:08:34 1996 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 08:08:34 -0600 Subject: WHOSE VEDA? - Bhaashya Message-ID: <161227022790.23782.16782209500318048429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just a note on one of M. Witzel's comments. It goes without saying that every one in this forum is interested in any serious work that discusses the actual content of the Veda and its actual impact on Indian thought. One of his comments might be construed as saying that Tamil texts held in reverence comparable to that given to the Veda are actually influenced in form by the latter. I am sure he did not mean to imply this. Also, there is no reason here to single out the Periya-purANam in preference to the other fundamental texts in the 12 Tiru-muRai. An interesting related point is that the Tamil word used in this connection is not vEda but *maRai*, which has been fittingly translated in French by *Arcanes* (F. Gros). Whether the word was supposed to refer to the veda itself, or was a generic term for important, esoteric texts is not clear. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota 127 Vincent Hall 206 Church Street, S. E. Minneapolis, MN 55455-0487 E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu Phone: (612) 625-2352 From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sun Feb 11 14:11:43 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 08:11:43 -0600 Subject: Commercial "slamming" Message-ID: <161227022791.23782.12526403362543606891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear F.J. Martinez Garcia, It is my understanding that there is not much an unmoderated list can do to prevent this type of unsolicited commercial, called "slamming." A moderator can filter them out, but unmoderated lists are subject to this type of advertising invasion. Luckily, there are not TOO many of these types of messages slamming the Indology list. It is my understanding that the computer/server can not determine, on its own, which messages are commercial slams and which are genuine posts from list members. >About this recent message. >It doesn't belong in anyway to the list. >The given adress is not a real one. What should we do with this kind >of unsolicited commercials? >>----- Forwarded message begins here ----- >>From: Melanie Tsai <16melanie at greatnet.uwcv.edu > >>Subject: =====>>> *Fantastic* FREE offer I discovered on the 'net >>-----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request >>for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request > Yvette C. Rosser ---+-}---+-}--+-<@ ----+-}---+-}---+-<@ ----+-}---+-}---+-<@ -<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>- Generate Ideas and Events to Promote Peace and Justice-- in YOUR OWN Community--Create & Celebrate: The First International -<@>- DAY WITHOUT VIOLENCE -<@>- - APRIL 4, 1996 - http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~iwork/peacetxt.htm @>---+-{---+-{--+--- "When a pickpocket looks at a saint, all he can see are his pockets. --Neem Karoli Baba <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/ _\|/ From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun Feb 11 10:15:00 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 10:15:00 +0000 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227022788.23782.2812904680232711044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could these scenes of group sex and bestiality be the iconographic >representation of "chaos" as a precursor to order or the rightness of things. > As I understand it, these scenes are usually on the outside and bases of >temples. Would the tantra specialists care to comment please? Thanks. Girish Beeharry From mrabe at artic.edu Sun Feb 11 17:26:38 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 12:26:38 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227022793.23782.1874039688771363184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I'd like to see another thread pursue questions of historical precedent, back at least to the vedikA yakzis of Satavahana Sanchi and Kusana Mathura, I'm convinced by Herman Goetz* that the most blatantly erotic imagery of Khajuraho, is an ANOMALY: "the most splendid shrines of India erected by the then most powerful rulers of the North for a depraved sect held in contempt by the most cultured people of that time." [*"The Historical Background of the Great Temples of Khajuraho,"ed. H. Kulke, Studies in the History, Religion and Art of Classical and Medieval India (Weisbaden, 1974), p. 110] This is not, let me hasten to add, gratuitious condemnation by an unsympathetic outsider, but the official (& an orthodox Vaishnava) line as advanced in the allegorical Sanskrit drama, the Prabodhachandrodaya of Krishnamizra, a "....caustic condemnation of the Kaula-KApAlika teachings and practices," written to celebrate the abhisheka of Chandella king KIrtivarman in c. 1060! Exclamation is called for by the fact that the largest temple at Khajuraho, not coicidently the most prolific in its sexual imgery, namely the Kandariya Mahadeo, was not yet 50 years old, erected at the behest of earlier Chandella kings. The plural alludes to the very plausible suggestion by Goetz that the three successive panels of copulating kings-&-multiple-yoginis stacked on its antarala walls (between vimana and mandapa) may well portray the successive Chandella kings Dhanga, Ganda and VidyAdhara (c. 999- c.1050). Perhaps to say more, an illustrated article for IJTS is called for, huh, Enrica? Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University The School of the Art Institute of Chicago From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 11 18:51:52 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 13:51:52 -0500 Subject: Nasals/ Editing problems Message-ID: <161227022794.23782.18338679397236606936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Birgit Kellner asked: >>> I would like to have as many opinions as possible on Sandhi-conventions in critical editions of Sanskrit texts, especially on what to do with nasals ...<<< There have been only two answers -- a surprising fact on this list. How is it possible that we mindlessly just follow the features of the printed editions of the ``Benares/Poona tradition`` of the last 150 years or so, features which have also been copied in most western editions? This is not the solution, it is the problem. B. Kellner`s case is a fairly standard one in better MSS *outside* the Poona/Benares tradition: >>> the manuscript I am currently using, for example, generally ... assimilates nasals in pausa, when the following word starts with ca, ta or va (i.e. ki~n ca, kin tu, kim vaa). It also sometimes writes ma in pausa, when the following word begins with bha, ba or na, but never with any other consonants. <<<< This is one of the ways to write such sandhis (not pause, incidentally; or do I misunderstand her here?) Poona/Benares editions of course would write anusvaara (M) everywhere. Part of the indological tradition (in India and elsewhere) even writes Anusvaara (M) in cases such as ``daNDa`` which you can find, especially in lithographs and Nirnayasagara prints as ``daMDa`` -- thus even inside words, and compounds, in internal sandhi... The easy-going practise to write M in *external* sandhi (graamaM gaccha!) instead of homorganic nasal (as good Vedic MSS and many local traditions do) is as old as the oldest Skt. MSS from Hsinkiang... (and the sometimes resulting Pali style pronunciation of Anusvaara as |ng| is scolded in the medieval Siksa literature). ((( And I do not even touch the distinction between anusvaara (M) and anunaasika (&), due to Panini`s not so clear distinction of the two. Thus you can see haMsa or ha&sa, but again, Poona/Benares usually prefer the easy-going haMsa. The case is altogether more complicated in Vedic recitation (see anunasika, IIJ 25) and Vedic MSS-- and different in every school (zaakhaa)-- but as usual, obscured by the current editions...))) >>>>B.Kellner: >Is one supposed to replace ma at the end of a word, just as the scribe seems to have done, by the homorganic nasal, ... is one supposed to carry out this replacement only within compounds?<<< See above, and below. The question is which ``norm`` to follow. Prof. v. Simson wrote: >>>>But since the scribes are not consistent in their use of sandhi, I think it is best to standardize the orthography and to follow Panini's rules as far as sandhi is concerned. This makes it also easier for the user of your edition. You may describe the actual practice of the scribes in your introduction or you can give the writings of the manuscripts in the critical apparatus. <<< This is reasonable practice. However, I think the this practice *is* the problem. At any rate, the case is more complicated. Once you start comparing MSS from various areas of medieval India you notice clearly defined local styles: the Kashmirians have one ``orthography`` of Sanskrit, the Newars of the Kathmandu valley another, the Gujaratis, Oriyas, Tamils, Nambudiris still another, and so on... Apart from occasionl remarks (e.g. : this is Dravidian ``ra`` for vowel ``r``) the problem has hardly been noticed. (I think I have referred to it here and there in articles on the Paippalada Atharvaveda; or see Lubotsky in IIJ 25 for Maitrayani Samhita /Gujarati practise which is surprisingly different from what we learn in school; cf. also Prof. Rao`s example of pronunciation of vowel R in sandhi ). I say ``problem`` because we have to KNOW the local NORM in order to understand what kind of writing mistakes might occur (of course you also have to know the local paleography; --- for examples of all of this, see articles in: Journal of the Ganganath Jha Research Institute, Vol. 29 (1973) 463-488; Vol. 32 (1976), 137-168 (both with innumerable misprints, for correct copies ask me!); MSS 44 (1985), 259-287, IIJ 25 (1983) p. 19, IIJ 29 (1986), 249-259, and: On Kashmiri MSS and pronunciation, in: Studies on the Nilamata-Purana, ed. by Y. Ikari, Kyoto 1995). If we paint over the local style by applying Paninean norms we will never know, especially if the ``orthographic peculiarities`` are merely summarized in the introduction. I recognize that it may be too much to put every anusvaara (M ) found in your MSS (instead of correct n,m,N etc. ) into the variant readings. A middle path has to be found here. But it is an altogether different thing if we as editors while normalizing hide the fact that, say, the Nepal scribes traditionally write cch- even at the beginning of words, that the Kashmiris hardly employ Visarga (only in pausa!) but a lot of Upadhmaniya and Jihvamuliya, and z, S, s before the same consonants, even in classical MSS ... etc.. If you do not draw the attention of the reader to these facts in your edition by actually printing --devas sam-- and the like, people will never know -- because more than 100 years experience teaches that virtually no one reads introductions (note the case of Geldner`s Avesta or S.P.Pandit`s Atharvaveda ...) and even *if* people do so, they quickly forget (``another orthographic peculiarity``: we want to read proper Sanskrit...). Well, Skt. was not, at any place, so proper Paninean throughout history as the grammarians think and want us to believe... In short: *** preserve the local norm (once you know it)*** This helps to understand many mistakes made by (later) scribes and thus helps you to reconstruct the text (archetype or not, see last summer`s unfinished discussion ). I therefore agree with Prof. Vidhyanath K. Rao: >>> When standardzing sandhi conventions, it may be worthwhile to record, perhaps even follow the main manuscripts, when one of the several options allowed by Panini/vartikakara are generally preferred. It seems that "deferring to common practice", with the attendant elimination of indications about dialectical variations would lead to wrong impression by those who consider the printed editions to be the only "scientific" evidence for historical purposes. <<< It is indicative of our editorial skills and practice that a Sanskrit-loving prof. of Mathematics has to tell us what to do! This HAS been the problem in Indologyy, starting with our very conscientious and productive predecessors in the 19th century (Keith`s AA, quoted by Prof. Rao, included. Keith, just like the others, also standardized). Problems arise, of course, when we get MSS from various parts of India (not to speak of recitation, see again Prof. Rao`s post) . Which ``norm`` to use if we do not know the locality of the author or if there is neither a single author nor a single location of the authors/ redactors ( Epics, Puranas... though even here, much more could be found out if we would use some of the above...) But even then, we may use the fact of MSS stemming from various areas to our advantage. Take a look at Kuiper`s Gopalakelicandrika which we both discussed before publication. It seems that we have a Gujarati author but the MSS also show Tamil, Nandinagari and other peculiarities... (A similar case is that of Schokker`s Padataditaka: from early Kashmir but with Malayalam MSS and both peculiarities...) This helps to understand the history of transmission -- and will help the editor to make intelligent choices in editing... In my opinion, editors too easily fall back on what I call the Benares/Poona tradition of the last few centuries... (which has ``invaded`` Gujarat, Orissa, Kashmir etc. only during the last century!). They make it THE NORM for editing Skt. texts, --- down to details such as use of avagragha and double avagraha which I have not seen in any MS so far (anybody? -- Note also the ``traditional`` N.American transcription of ai, au!) We should be aware of the fact that, down from our oldest Skt. MSS (roughly Kushana time, from ``Chinese Turkestan``/Hsinkiang/Xinjiang), there have been many ``norms`` and that the one we follow now is just *one* of them, and artficial in places (just think of the word division in printed Nagari :: word division in Roman transliteration :: lectio continua in the MSS; and this even obscures certain facts of sandhi!). Another problem which we face, e.g. with the Kashmirian version of the Paippalada Atharvaveda, has been alluded to by Prof. v. Simson: >>>> Franz Bernhard's edition of the Udaanavarga, Vol.I, Goettingen 1965, where the orthographical variants are kept apart from the others (and more important ones) as a category of its own. <<< There are, as I mentioned above, the innumerable cases of M :: n,m,N which seem to be useless in a list of variants. However, even these can become important in a tradition which is limited to a few MSS, say in the case of the Paippalada Samhita. Here, it would be worthwhile to record them as the can provide clues about the stemma and the various local lines of transmission. Secondly, some texts (as in the Atharva tradition, especially the Kash. Paipp.) bristle with local mistakes based on pronunciation which render the text unitelligeable in places. They may very well be recorded in a special appendix. However, the problem even then is how to distinguish between ``useless`` orthography (or recitation) and ``important`` variants. In short: record both, in one way or another: our successors will be grateful to you. In the words of a venerable octogenarian Indian colleague. B.R. Sharma, who has, single-handedly, edited most of the Samavedic texts (a new SV edition with comm. to come out in HOS): ``I give all the variants (since I have the MSS), and you have all the time and can figure out where to correct me.`` If only more scholars would follow this dictum! M.Witzel, Sanskrit Harvard U. witzel at husc3.harvard.edu From TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Feb 12 01:07:43 1996 From: TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu (Tracy Pintchman) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 19:07:43 -0600 Subject: Mangali women Message-ID: <161227022802.23782.14671161052851416319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know where I can get more information about women who are considered "mangali," that is, whose astrological charts are heavily Mars-influenced? I am particularly interested in special marriage rituals such as the "kumbh vivaha" that are meant to rid these women of excess Mars influence. I would be most grateful for any guidance to relevant sources, either primary or secondary. Thank you in advance, Tracy Pintchman tpintch at luc.edu From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Mon Feb 12 00:42:41 1996 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 19:42:41 -0500 Subject: Chaos Message-ID: <161227022796.23782.13721185287436335773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems almost too apposite to be true, but the following article appears in the current issue of New Scientist (10 Feb 1996, p.11). It seems there is now scientific proof that crowd-chaos holds underlying order. (To experience the full impact, for "rock concert" read "Holi", for "Wembly Stadium" read "Allahabad", etc.) Rock fans go with the flow ===================== The crowd at a rock concert may look like a seething mass of bodies, but there is a hidden order at work. The discovery that crowd behaviour is not entirely chaotic was made by Keith Still of the University of Warwick, Patrick Carr, operations manager at Wembly Stadium, and Mark Briggs, director of event Security, a company that provides security at rock concerts. In the past, Still has used virtual reality to model the beaviour of small groups of people leaving burning buildings. He turned his attention to larger groups after noticing the same patterns cropping up time and time again in videos of crowd movements. Now he has distilled the behaviour of up to a million people into a few simple rules and ten lines of computer code. Making thousands of computer-generated people obey these rules produces patterns like the one pictured above [symmetrical, flower-like image]. "We create a virtual environment that reflects the geometry of teh venue and then let the people find their optimum route through it," says Still. He says the model proved itself by accurately predicting how long it would take a 20,000-strong crowd watching Bon Jovi at Wembly to leave the stadium at the end of the concert. The research team has formed a company to offer modelling software to other venues looking for the best way to clear crowds after events. -- Dominik Wujastyk From dow at wjh12.harvard.edu Mon Feb 12 02:13:08 1996 From: dow at wjh12.harvard.edu (dow at wjh12.harvard.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 21:13:08 -0500 Subject: Chaos Message-ID: <161227022800.23782.1461590521769386814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:07:20 GMT you wrote: >Rock fans go with the flow > >The crowd at a rock concert may look like a seething mass of bodies, but there >is a hidden order at work. The discovery that crowd behaviour is not entirely >chaotic was made by Keith Still of the University of Warwick, Patrick Carr, >operations manager at Wembly Stadium, and Mark Briggs, director of event >Security, a company that provides security at rock concerts. This so-called objective and scientific report grossly insults lovers of rock music by suggesting that their behaviour was believed to be "entirely chaotic", and referring to their bodies as "seething". Obviously these so-called Scientists have pinko-grey skins, and this has affected their judgement. It is typical that such so-called western Scientists use the word "chaos" to describe the behaviour of honest rock crowds. In spite of the fact that they have dedicated their lives to understanding these rock crowds, these so-called Scientists do nothing but misrepresent these rock music fans, falsely insulting them with such pejorative, non-scientific words. The word "seething" can only properly be used in second-order Eulerian representations of approximate notional domains within dynamic fluid flow; any other use, for example in describing Bon Jovi fans, is merely a pinko-grey imperialist insult. Kinimod Kytsajuw From filipsky at site.cas.cz Sun Feb 11 20:41:13 1996 From: filipsky at site.cas.cz (filipsky at site.cas.cz) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 21:41:13 +0100 Subject: "minor" Upanishads Message-ID: <161227022798.23782.12140672825564837573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I would very much appreciate any bibliographic information about >serious studies or articles done on two "minor" Upanishads: the >Paramatika Upanishad and the Ekakshara Upanishad, both of which are found >in the Mantra Prasna of the Vaikhanasas. Both Upanishads are also found >in the large compendium of Upanishads called the Upanisat-samgraha, >edited by Professor J. L. Sastri. > Thank you very much for any help in this regard. >Howard Resnick >Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies >Harvard University > > As regards the Ekakshara Upanishad, the text of which can also be found in "The Samanya Vedanta Upanishads with the commentary of Sri Upanishad-Brahma-Yogin, ed. by Pandit A. Mahadeva Sastri, Adyar 1921, pp. 106-110, as well as in One Hundred & Eight Upanishads... ed. by Wasudev Laxman Shastri Pansikar, Bombay 1925, pp. 426-7, there is a brief English summary of its contents by N.S. Subramanian in his Encyclopaedia of the Upanisads, Oriental University Press, London 1986, pp. 158-159, which can however be hardly called a "serious" study. Jan Filipsky From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 12 03:34:57 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 22:34:57 -0500 Subject: Chaos II (kinimod) Message-ID: <161227022807.23782.18374367823524796306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: Kinimod Kytsajuw on chaos/ Feb 11.1996: === As one of the staffed shirts of this hollowed, ivy-overgrown place, I must protest most vigourously with Kinimod`s spam-like invasion of Harvard`s email space: Obviously he is a fan of Sam Kinnison (see below) and wants to advertize his videos/records, while, at the same time K. does so by usurping the copyright brand name of the Dow company (big mistake: their lawyers will get him/her!), and K. tries to delude us with his/her obviously diversant remark about the use of the word ``chaos``: >> any other use, for example in describing Bon Jovi fans, is merely a pinko-grey imperialist insult.<< This insulting description of Bon Jovi fans is obviously meant just to hide the fact that he/she is a fan of --and named after-- the rock star and comic Kinnison = Kini-mod (mod = etymologically linked to ``modern``, kind of like ``hip, cool`` etc., see Dr. Suschiel Gupta`s Indo-germanische Etymologisches Woerterbuch, Boston, Sverge Publ., Boston 1990 ff., s.v. mad), -- a useless attempt to confuse the combined intelligence on this list: even though (s)he/it desparately tried to disguise his/her/its identity by the pseudonyms whose definite explanation I have already given above. My conclusion is further supported by the fact that even common sense and simple logic tells us that this must be a set-up as Kinnison has been dead for some years... The argument also does not hold up to philological scrutiny: as defined by my colleague here, Prof. M. Nagatomi some years ago, philology is the study of *a* word, -- a definition I have been teaching here for years now, -- and a real slow reading of Kinimod`s description of ``chaos`` just is not up to the level of contemporary, post-modern discourse: (s)he/it uses it in various, mutually incompatible ways, something that must not be allowed: chaos is chaos, as defined by proper newspeak, and therefore very close to s`uunyataa. I learnt this already during the 1983 CISHAAN/ICANAAS conference at Tokyo (actually, one year too early, before 1984) where, in a lecture on the late philosopher Sri Anirvan, it was shown, in my otherwise etymological session (see Proceedings of the 31st CISHAAN (Tokyo-Kyoto), ed. by T.Yamamoto, Tokyo 1984), that: brahman = s`uunyataa. How much closer could you get to a REAL understanding of the concept? I am deeply sorry for most of you who have missed this discussion. On second thought, I think all of this would also make for a good topic of the Hinduja study group on ``conflict resolution`` : For, of course, in brahman (advaitic or other), there won`t be any conflict, though I am not so sure about non-A-nirvan definitions of s`uunyataa... I leave that to the Mahayana specialists among us... And if they don` t know, maybe they can ask their (lineage) guru and tell us. Then we`ll finally know. Or, instead of the Hinduja group we can ask the Harvard Program for Mediation and conflict resolution. Coming to think of it, this one has been in place for many years, and has successfully worked in places like the Near East (and, if I am not mistaken, Somalia). In this light, the Columbia Hinduja working group just seems to be a case of one-upmanship: a vain attempt to compete with Harvard... Actually, surprisingly for this list, nobody has yet discussed the proper Sanskrit equivalents for ``chaos``!! Or maybe, (as I suspect), the word does not exist in the Sanskrit language (any suggestions?) I have checked all the VEDAS and could find only things like ``tumula-`` which, though it occurs in a Smriti text, (Latyayana Srautasutra 2.3.3, --outside the famous pumscali passage) -- probably is due to the interpolation of Christians like Max Muller or somebody of his ilk (I think it was the Russo-Finnish Sanskritist Reuter-- who, as the German (!) etymology of his name, ``rider``, clearly shows, was as Nordic as you can get it, at Helsinki, and therefore pale-(paaNDu)-white and clearly also one of the descendents of those horse riding invaders (from the Rasaa/Rahaa= Volga, near Saratov/Engels (!)) whom the 19th c. linguists mistakenly liked to have had conquer Vedic India: with tumula- he imitated the Latin word ``tumultus`` -- a real mess that occured during the Roman carnival. He did that just to drag down the ancient Soma sacrifice where, of course, no such mess occurs. We leave that to a non-orthodox (Roman?) interpretation of the mass. It should be possible, though, to find an Indian equivalent for ``chaos``, at least in recent, heavily colonialized languages such as Hinglish, where it exists, of course, as ``keyas``. In short, this attempt to disrupt our scholarly exchange of the OED meaning of the word ``chaos`` must be refuted vigourously and put into the waste basket just like other spams (the recent free journal one!), emerging from assumed locations. I am only sorry that we have been drawn into this one, and I think, I will take it up tomorrow with the proper authorities such as the commencement Marshall. E.J.M. Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit PS.: What does Charles think about this? PPS. On further thought, maybe the Hinduja Inst. shouldn`t touch the topic: otherwise they must dissolve the ``resolution group`` immediately. -----------iti parisamaaptam--------- From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Mon Feb 12 09:32:06 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 03:32:06 -0600 Subject: "Lascivious" Iconography Message-ID: <161227022810.23782.2186761351371550330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> AmitaSarin at aol.com wrote: (. . . ) >I have also wondered about the meaning of the >sexually explicit carvings on the walls and have not totally bought >the traditional explanations. (. . .) Could these scenes of group sex and >bestiality be the iconographic representation of "chaos" as a >precursor to order or the rightness of things. (. . .) Are the scenes >on the outside of temples a representation >of the state of the world before the gods restore order? Michael Rabe wrote: >"I'm convinced by Herman Goetz* that the most blatantly erotic imagery of Khajuraho, is an ANOMALY: 'the most splendid shrines of India erected by the then most powerful rulers of the North for a depraved sect held in contempt by the most cultured people of that time.' >[This is] the official (& an orthodox Vaishnava) line. . . " (. . .) >Perhaps to say more, an illustrated article for IJTS is called for, huh, >Enrica? Indeed, the images of group sex and bestiality at Khajuraho are among the most unusually erotic images to be found in India. They do seem to be far more explicit and "deviant" than other erotic imagery, and therefore should be analyzed from within the particular historical conditions that created the statuary at Khajuraho. It doesn't, however explain the ubiquitousness of erotic imagery (of a less "deviant" expression) found in statuary and art throughout much of Hinduism and Buddhism. An interesting aside: A few weeks ago there was a program on The Learning Channel (I think, or perhaps Discovery Channel) devoted to erotic art in India. It showed examples of statuary from Khajuraho (though explicit, not the more "deviant" ones), and other examples of tantic or erotic art. Of course, this program, meant as an introduction to this type of symbolic religious artistic expression, was intended for the younger crowd towards whom the Learning Channel directs much of their programming. It is quite ironic, that this educational TV program of a few weeks ago, is NOW, under the vague definition of "lascivious, filthy and indecent" found in the Telcom Bill, perhaps illegal to critique or discuss in descriptive detail (on the Internet). There is no grandfather clause written into the Telcom Bill allowing the discussion and intellectual debate about topics and images that were previously considered legal and educational, but now have possibly been rendered illegal. Pahari miniatures of an erotic nature are also quite explicit and show very close up details of male and female genitalia and many unusual and quite athletic sexual positions, and though depicting heterosexuality between humans, are unabashedly and explicitly, erotic representations. Tantric symbolism aside, what were the historical conditions that gave rise to these beautifully erotic and very explicit sexual representations? I think, under the mandate of the new Telcom Bill, that IJTS should exercise caution, and may indeed be forced to limit their illustrations to Shiva lingams, Shri Yantras, and other symbolic diagrams, eschewing the reproduction of the more graphic or realistic expressions of erotic/tantric art. We would hate to see Enrica imprisoned and/or fined. Perhaps future reproductions of Khajuraho statuary could be printed with black rectangles strategically placed to censure the "lascivious" images and protect the IJTS from legal entanglements that might arise from the publication of previously discussible images of this now taboo and proscribed topic. Obviously, the motivation for this current inquiry into the prevalence and meaning of erotic imagery in Indian art, is partially meant as a protest against stupid laws that restrict freedom of expression and intellectual discourse, but the topic is, though now somehow illegal, very interesting, and as Amita Sarin suggested not adequately explained. Certainly paintings from Kangra and Jaipur and other places, and some of the more erotic depictions of the Gita Govinda, are not appropriate illustrations for an elementary school textbook. The subject is however, intriguing and of great interest to many of us adults on this list. Who commissioned those paintings? Why so explicit? Where were the portfolios of these paintings viewed? In the King's chambers? In the women's chambers? Where they used as visual aides during intercourse? Or were they commissioned as purely religious symbolism? Were women allowed to see these paintings? Did couples aspire to copulate in the rigorous manner shown in such detail? Was this idealized art based on a literary tradition or was it modeled on contemporary sexual practices? Did the Kings, patrons, artists, and/or people of the era actually practice such gymnastically challenging sexual positions or are they idealized, ritualized depictions? Did the viewer use these images to bring him or herself closer to God via tantric practices and the transcendence of lust and desire, or were they meant to be sexually stimulating? As Girish Beeharry requested: ">Would the tantra specialists care to comment please?" Yvette C. Rosser UT Austin --+-{--+-{--+--<@ "One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" --Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/ _\|/ From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Feb 12 11:18:17 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 06:18:17 -0500 Subject: Xmas, Mahavrata etc (was Holi); also spam. Message-ID: <161227022816.23782.14740836698492835235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the Chrismas Party atmosphere is assigned to Saturnalia etc, why is that every Christmas brings half a dozen or more theories about the Star of Bethlehem, without any mention of the obvious theory, given the coincidence of date with the Feast of Mithras, proximity to Day of the Invinsible Sun etc.? Turning to Mahavrata: Are the abhigara and apagara always identified with the arya/aarya and shudra, two combatants for the Sun symbol? (note the distinction between arya and aarya). And is the use of a shudra for the other side original or an innovation? Peter Snoy, in an article titled ``Last pagans of the Hindu-Kush'' (I have a xerox copy with no indication of the source; page numbers are 520--529) refers to a ``vigorous combat between a `pure' and `impure' person'' as an important feature of the winter solstice festival of the Kalash, the last non-Muslim tribe in NE Afghanistan/NW Kashmir. I borrowed a copy of ``Solstice Paien'' (rather the English translation, apparently the only copy of either the original or the translation in university libraries of Ohio) by Loude and Livre, a book length report on the same. Unfortunately some pages were replaced duplicates of earlier pages. Otherwise there was no such incident mentioned there. I will have to look this up, but I don't remember this being mentioned in the only other reference on this festival that I know. Perhaps some member of Indology with access to an intact version of Solstice Paien can shed further light. -Nath From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 12 08:00:10 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 08:00:10 +0000 Subject: maRai, its meaning; WHOSE VEDA? - Bhaashya Message-ID: <161227022804.23782.11891760988731798743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the meaning of maRai in Tamil? maRai = concealment (puRanA.50); secret (kuRaL, 590); the vEdas, as secret (tol.ezhut.102). It would appear that the secrecy is the key attribute of the vedic tradition continued by the siddhas of Tamil alchemical lore. In Tamil vedi-iyal connotes alchemy. The links with veda and Tamil may also be found thru Malayalam. Dr. Kalyanaraman, Indus Sarasvati Research Centre, Madras. mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in >This is just a note on one of M. Witzel's comments. It goes without saying >that every one in this forum is interested in any serious work that >discusses the actual content of the Veda and its actual impact on Indian >thought. > >One of his comments might be construed as saying that Tamil texts held in >reverence comparable to that given to the Veda are actually influenced in >form by the latter. I am sure he did not mean to imply this. Also, there >is no reason here to single out the Periya-purANam in preference to the >other fundamental texts in the 12 Tiru-muRai. > >An interesting related point is that the Tamil word used in this >connection is not vEda but *maRai*, which has been fittingly translated in >French by *Arcanes* (F. Gros). Whether the word was supposed to refer to >the veda itself, or was a generic term for important, esoteric texts is >not clear. > > > Satyanad Kichenassamy > School of Mathematics > University of Minnesota > 127 Vincent Hall > 206 Church Street, S. E. > Minneapolis, MN 55455-0487 > E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu > Phone: (612) 625-2352 > > > From 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Mon Feb 12 16:43:47 1996 From: 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (C.A. Coleman) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 08:43:47 -0800 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227022824.23782.12028243611778231623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I haven't been following the ins and outs of the flames in relation to this topic, I do have a suggestion for further inquiry about this temple site. Gregory Alles writes an insightful article in _The History of Religions_ vol. 28, no. 1 (August 1988), entitled "Surface, Space and Intention: The Parthenon and the Kandariya Mahadeva." While he compares Greek temple building with Indian, he relates the meanings of the temple as "instruments of pwer intended to glorify two new imperial regimes." ( 4) He then proceeds to characterize each culture's self-image based on the characteristics of the temples. His evidence for this thesis consists of connecting the structures' surface ornamentations and spatial dimensions with Greek and Indian political organization and religious practice, respectifully. He explains that the Greeks of the Parthenon's period concentrated on physique and war-power to sustain their rule; thus the Parthenon will detail the strained musculature of horses and warriors in war-time activities. He notes that 10th cent. India developed controlled breath and mind as forms of strength, the Kandariya Mahadeva will position bodies in ascetic and esoteric postures. In short, he argues that the temples' facades and their 3-d spaces correspond to social arrangements with the respective societies. In more detail about the KM: Alles explains that the surface characteristics (the sculpted figures whose bodies are accented by full, spherical breasts, exaggerated hips, dripping with jewelry and transparently clothed) obscure the shape of the sculpture such that what catches the eye is the grandeur of the temple rather than its interior purpose: Saivite devotional practice and maintenance of the deity. Read the article; it's helpful in making sense of the figures that you find there. From Alles article you can move from sex as literal to metaphorical; the philosophical and political contents of sexuality become apparent. CA Coleman UCSB "It is madness to wear ladies' straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets." --Annie Dillard _Teaching a Stone to Talk_ From magier at columbia.edu Mon Feb 12 14:43:49 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 09:43:49 -0500 Subject: "Lascivious" Iconography Message-ID: <161227022820.23782.1900837319149773956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > If US laws are getting so tricky that you can't publish tantric imagery of > a sexually explicit nature in the IJTS, why not publish it from a > Scandinavian server? We're not so hung up as Americans are, and anybody > trying to prosecute people here for showing pictures from Khajuraho would > be laughed out of court. Unfortunately, the new champions of 'decency' have designed the law in such a way that any US internet access provider (e.g a public net terminal in a University Library, etc. etc.) might be prosecuted for providing *access* to the Tantric art, regardless of the location of the server on the internet... David Magier Columbia University From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Mon Feb 12 09:42:56 1996 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 10:42:56 +0100 Subject: maRai, its meaning; WHOSE VEDA? - Bhaashya Message-ID: <161227022812.23782.10202476336328338306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One additionnal information on the word maRai as it is used in tolkAppiyam (T) and its commentaries. 1. in the preface of T, attributed to pan_ampAraz_Ar, we meet with the expression "... nAn_ maRai muRRiya ataGkOTTu AcaRku ..." {the expression is translated by Kamil Zvelebil [JTS-1, 1972] as: "...of the Teacher of AtaGkOTu ripe in the wisdom of the Four Vedas" ) He probably relies on the commentary of iLampUraNar (XII cent.), which says: "nAn_ku vEtattin_aiyum muRRavuNarnta ataGkOTu en_kin_Ra Urin_ Acan_ukku" } 2. in the first book of T (el_uttatikAram) we meet with (references given according to Rajam edition): a. "... icaiyoTu civaNiya narampin_ maRaiya ..." (1, 33) b. "... antaNar maRaittu" (3, 20) {Zvelebil (loc.cit.) translates a. "in books on vocal and instrumental music" b. "in the secret scriptures of the antaNar" iLampUraNar's commentary says a. "kural mutaliya El_icaiyOTu poruntiya narampin_aiyuTaiya yAl_in_atu icainURkaNNum" b. "pArppAr vEtattuk kaNNatu" naccin_Arkkin_iyar's commentary (XIV cent.) says: a. "yAl_ nUl iTattan_a" b. "pArppAratu vEtattu uLatE" } -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universite' Paris7) >What is the meaning of maRai in Tamil? > >maRai = concealment (puRanA.50); secret (kuRaL, 590); the vEdas, as secret >(tol.ezhut.102). It would appear that the secrecy is the key attribute of >the vedic >tradition continued by the siddhas of Tamil alchemical lore. In Tamil vedi-iyal >connotes alchemy. > >The links with veda and Tamil may also be found thru Malayalam. > >Dr. Kalyanaraman, Indus Sarasvati Research Centre, Madras. >mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in >> >>An interesting related point is that the Tamil word used in this >>connection is not vEda but *maRai*, which has been fittingly translated in >>French by *Arcanes* (F. Gros). Whether the word was supposed to refer to >>the veda itself, or was a generic term for important, esoteric texts is >>not clear. >> >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> School of Mathematics >> University of Minnesota > From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Feb 12 10:45:30 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 11:45:30 +0100 Subject: "Lascivious" Iconography Message-ID: <161227022814.23782.15181687066929356301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If US laws are getting so tricky that you can't publish tantric imagery of a sexually explicit nature in the IJTS, why not publish it from a Scandinavian server? We're not so hung up as Americans are, and anybody trying to prosecute people here for showing pictures from Khajuraho would be laughed out of court. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From orzechc at hamlet.uncg.edu Mon Feb 12 18:45:36 1996 From: orzechc at hamlet.uncg.edu (Charles Orzech) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 13:45:36 -0500 Subject: Tantra-L Message-ID: <161227022827.23782.10468445994787778720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new list of interest to indologists has been started: > As some of you know, a new list, Tantra-L is now up and running. The > list was designed with three purposes in mind. First, it will support > the five-year Tantric Studies Seminar of the American Academy of > Religion. Second, Tantra-L should enhance interaction of the membership > of the Society for Tantric Studies. Third, Tantra-L is designed to > provide a space for scholarly discussion concerning the tantras, both > within particular schools and traditions and hopefully across sectarian > and scholarly boundaries. The list is closed (by subscription) but > unmoderated. To subscribe send the following message to listserv at uncg.edu: > > SUBSCRIBE TANTRA-L YOUR NAME > > Other inquiries should be directed to me, Charles D. Orzech > OrzechC at hamlet.uncg.edu. > Thank you > From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Feb 12 14:13:27 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:13:27 +0100 Subject: Xmas, Mahavrata etc (was Holi); also spam. Message-ID: <161227022818.23782.14113554537277929074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyanath K. Rao wrote: >If the Chrismas Party atmosphere is assigned to Saturnalia etc, why is that >every Christmas brings half a dozen or more theories about the Star of >Bethlehem, without any mention of the obvious theory, given the coincidence >of date with the Feast of Mithras, proximity to Day of the Invinsible Sun etc.? The star of Bethlehem was connected with the birth of Christ as a kind of omen. It supposedly led the three wise men to the cave where Christ was born. There has been an extensive discussion of what may have constituted the star of Bethlehem on the part of astronomers, (they have a slightly different agenda than historians of religion), but no definite answer has been given - there seem to be several possible candidates, none of which fits the facts altogether. I think it is questionable to try squaring such information with mythological data. People may have had a memory of some remarkable astronomical phenomenon and found it natural to combine it with the birth of Christ - as an alleged son of God, there should be omens connected with his birth. However, I personally find it quite natural that the date of the feast mentioned above should coincide with the date for Christmas. We are talking about the time of the year when the sun turns (winter solstice), a time which is, of course, of great ritual importance in a number of ancient religions. Ancient Christianity fits into a religious pattern which had already been established. We are not dealing with a complete break with the ancient pagan religion, but rather with a development where new religious ideas - or old ideas in new packaging - were grafted upon an already established pattern. As for the Saturnalia, they began on the 17. of december and went on for a week. Christ was supposedly born on the 24. of December. (Of course we have no historically reliable date for Christ's birth). As you see, Christmas almost overlaps with the Saturnalia, and when the Saturnalia were forbidden in late antiquity, Christmas became the time of the year when people would do what they used to do during the more ancient Saturnalia. This means that the behaviour pattern of people during Christmas may have been quite like the patterns found in connection with the more ancient Saturnalia. In the Nordic countries, Christmas was the time for gluttonous eating and drinking. Obviously, the behaviour patterns were very much the same as they had been during the mid-winter "blot" (sacrifice) in pagan times. To sum up: The Christian feast of Christmas has been superimposed on more ancient pagan feasts. The ideas related to Christmas (the birth of the saviour of the world), are, however, different from the ideas related to the pagan feasts. The behaviour patterns during the feast seem, however, to have been pretty much the same. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 12 20:46:29 1996 From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:46:29 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho et al. Message-ID: <161227022829.23782.8648483702599036135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: Michael Rabe > > Perhaps to say more, an illustrated article for IJTS is called for, > huh, Enrica? *I am waiting for such an article. Have you already written it, Michael?:)* - To Yvette Rosser and anybody else concerned about my likely going to jail: I am already doing more risky things....:) Thanks, anyway... - I think Clinton etc. are concerned about e.g the traffic on the Internet of images and advertisements of children for sexual practices....I doubt that any politician can forbide the publication of a scholarly paper where proper and relevant pictures are published (and I wonder whether Clinton etc. are informed about the IJTS and even about Khajuraho...). The "indecency" of Khajuraho is nothing compared with the gifs and the msgs of certain newsgroups! - However, I had a strange experience while teaching a Harvard graduate course in Tantrism: a student told the class -- for ca. 12 min.-- about her happy sexual matrimonial life (BTW, the person is 54-55!). The subjet was totally irrelevant and improper but, unfortunately, the pseudo-feminist in question claimed that was a significant contribution to the study of Tantrism itself. The person was promoted, because of this and other similar matters, to enter the PhD program from the MA, and I am still paying for the consequences of my attempt to dedicate our teaching/learning time to more scholarly matters. Well, I wish there was such a Telcom Bill for classes! - I sincerely thank Lars Martin Fosse who has offered to move the Journal(s....both, I hope!) to Norway, in case of problems. Dott. Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india/) From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Mon Feb 12 16:39:02 1996 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (Gerard Huet) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 17:39:02 +0100 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022821.23782.3038669808445093991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello. I am a little bit frustrated about this thread. Many methodological points have been discussed, and some scholarly discussion about Christmas and Saturnalia has begun, but no discussion so far about the religious significance of the Holi festival. Maybe everyone knows the basics, but since at least I do not, let me display my ignorance blatantly. Holi occurs the day after `phAlguna pUr.nimA', also called `dolA pUr.nimA' which means ``full moon of the swing''. This is a feast celebrating the youth of K.r.s.na. For instance, a pratimA of Jagannatha is swung at the moon light on a swing erected for this purpose near the Jagannatha temple in PurI. Apparently, the name of Holi is connected to HolikA, a rAk.sasI who is either the sister or the niece of PrahlAda, the pious son of Hira.nyakas'ipu, the king asura who was shredded to death by Narasi.mha. The name HolAkA seems to be the proper sanskrit name for the festival, according to Monier-Williams. It might be a corrupted composite from horA (hour, horoscope, zodiac)? Any learned pa.n.dita among you may care to comment and explain? Gerard Huet From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Feb 12 18:21:01 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 19:21:01 +0100 Subject: "Lascivious" Iconography Message-ID: <161227022825.23782.18406745276019541438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Magier wrote: >Unfortunately, the new champions of 'decency' have designed the law in >such a way that any US internet access provider (e.g a public net >terminal in a University Library, etc. etc.) might be prosecuted for >providing *access* to the Tantric art, regardless of the location of >the server on the internet... > This obviously calls for two editions of the IJTS: One "Mickey Mouse" version for the American market and one "adult" version for the rest of the world. Or seriously: This may call for a test case in an American court. In Norway, the authorities would no doubt want to eliminate child pornography, sado-masochism and similar things. The police have reacted when such things have turned up on public databases. But ancient art, be it ever so explicit, would probably not be treated as a criminal offence. Books with such contents have been sold freely for years in ordinary bookstores. And of course: In Denmark and Sweden, you can do anything. The main cultural difference between Norwegians and Danes is that when Norwegians discover a vice, they immediately pass a law against it, whereas the Danes just as quickly legalize it. Denmark is the last refuge of frustrated Norwegians. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From c-asia-1 at amnesty.nl Mon Feb 12 22:53:59 1996 From: c-asia-1 at amnesty.nl (c-asia-1 at amnesty.nl) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 22:53:59 +0000 Subject: Indus Kohistan Message-ID: <161227022831.23782.2353255583316402377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ruth Smidt, In 1985 I did my doctoral thesis (kind of masters degree in anthropology) on Gujars in Swat-Kohistan ( a transhumant and pastoral nomadic tribe ) based on fieldtrips in the area of Kalam, Utror- and Gujar Gabral. As you probably will know Frederic Barth (when he is not pensioned yet and before working atyour university and in teh Ethografic Museum in Oslo) made pionering fieldwork in the region in the fifties. I got some more upgraded info from project working on livestock from a couple of years ago and know their addresses. Between the 'outlines' and 'evaluations' and strategy plans' some interesting developments also. Let me know what's happening of what is of special interest for you. best regards Herman van Banning From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue Feb 13 09:23:00 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 09:23:00 +0000 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022832.23782.8095564752602105471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Apparently, the name of Holi is connected to HolikA, a rAk.sasI who >is either the sister or the niece of PrahlAda, the pious son of >Hira.nyakas'ipu, the king asura who was shredded to death by Narasi.mha. As far as I know, HolikA was the sister of Hira.nyakashipu. There is also the event called HolikA dahana on the night preceding the Holi where a straw puppet, representing HolikA, is burnt. Apparently HolikA had got a vardAna from Brahma that she would be unscathed by fire. She was helping his brother get rid of the too pious son by taking him on his lap and sitting on a pyre. Unfortunately for her, she was burnt to death with Brahma telling her that she was not supposed to use this boon to harm bhaktas. Hira.nyakashipu had also obtained a vardAna from Brahma but, that would be stretching the patience of the paNDitas a bit far... :-) >Any learned pa.n.dita among you may care to comment and explain? I'm an ignorant mUrkha but tried to help anyway! :-) Girish Beeharry From athr at loc.gov Tue Feb 13 16:01:49 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:01:49 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022840.23782.18156082528060716729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the festival named from the goddess or the goddess from the festival? Allen Thrasher On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > >Apparently, the name of Holi is connected to HolikA, a rAk.sasI who > >is either the sister or the niece of PrahlAda, the pious son of > >Hira.nyakas'ipu, the king asura who was shredded to death by Narasi.mha. > > As far as I know, HolikA was the sister of Hira.nyakashipu. > > Girish Beeharry > > From athr at loc.gov Tue Feb 13 16:40:07 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:40:07 -0500 Subject: Roman or Italian Indologists? Message-ID: <161227022838.23782.10833169425833686958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be in Italy April 19-26, at first in Rome (at least through the 23rd), but itinerary not settled after that. I would appreciate it if members of this list living in Italy would identify themselves to me (at ATHR at LOC.GOV, not to the list); perhaps we could meet in person. Also, is there anyone in Italy capable of cataloging Tamil MSS? Yours, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Feb 13 10:40:29 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:40:29 +0100 Subject: Khajuraho et al. Message-ID: <161227022834.23782.13502910230849350292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: >- I sincerely thank Lars Martin Fosse who has offered to move the >Journal(s....both, I hope!) to Norway, in case of problems. > My term as a research fellow is soon up, I leave the University of Oslo, at the beginning of June (but I will do my utmost to come back!) So even if I personally would love to offer your journal(s) political asylum, you would probably have to rely on another Scandinavian colleague. Nevertheless, I wish good luck. Your homepage is beautiful! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From athr at loc.gov Tue Feb 13 16:46:39 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:46:39 -0500 Subject: Baz Bahadur's poems Message-ID: <161227022836.23782.1336423645383027737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a patron who wants to find Baz Bahadur's poetry. I have been able to find a number of works on him and Rupmati but not his own. Did he in fact write any? Where are they published? In any anthologies? I'd be grateful for any help. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Tue Feb 13 23:27:18 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:27:18 -0500 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022842.23782.4112158350838713146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote: > Is the festival named from the goddess or the goddess from the festival? > Allen Thrasher At the risk of turning this thread back along old lines that became a bit entangled, may I ask if anyone would care to recommend any interpretive writing on the Holi festival that has been published in the past? I continue to find McKim Marriott's somewhat rash and now thirty-year-old essay "The Feast of Love," in Milton Singer, ed., _Krishna: Myths, Rites, and Attitudes_ (Honolulu: East-West Center Press, 1966) of interest and capable of provoking interest in the festival itself. Gene Thursby From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Feb 14 00:19:58 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 19:19:58 -0500 Subject: Analogies to Kabbalah Message-ID: <161227022843.23782.7690655718721549240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>For example, a god being the embodiment of the Veda; >>the letters of scripture being related to living >>creatures, deities, or the cosmos as to giving it >>life, form, definition, body, etc. through their >>organization or arrangement; the Vedas as a living >>thing; the letters of the scriptures being the >>mystical name of a god, etc. As far as I understand, the various Tantric traditions, to name one, abound with such concepts... the description of the Goddess as mAtrkArNa svarUpiNI a-ka-ca-Ta-ta-pAdi varNe ekAkSarI etc. or using bIjAkSara are examples of this. >>If anyone can help with general or specific references, >>it will be much appreciated. A.Bharati's "The Tantric tradition", Douglas Brooks's books, "Understanding Mantras" edited by Harvey Alper, Andre Padoux's "Vac: the concept of the word in selected Hindu Tantras", may be of help... -Srini. From treich at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Feb 14 03:17:21 1996 From: treich at midway.uchicago.edu (treich at midway.uchicago.edu) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 21:17:21 -0600 Subject: Analogies to Kabbalah Message-ID: <161227022845.23782.11099526731851473243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Will Wagers wrote: >In Jewish myth, the Golem is created by rearranging the letters of >the Torah. In the Kabbalah, the Sefiroth appear in the form of Primal >Man; the letters of the divine name are the image of the Ancient of >Ancients; the Torah is considered as a living organism. > >I am interested in analogous concepts in the Vedas, Puranas, etc. I agree that there is much room for comparison. Just another reference: Hananya Goodman, ed. Between Jerusalem and Banares, Comparative Studies in Judaism and Hinduism, Albany: SUNY Press, 1994. Tamar Reich The University of Chicago South Asian Languages and Civilization treich at midway.uchicago.edu From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Wed Feb 14 07:15:51 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 23:15:51 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022849.23782.16938829622622215208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Some time ago I obtained a very nice version of Bitstream Charter for Windows. I set a short booklet of Adi Sankaracharya, translated by Swami Yogananda Sarasvati of Kaivalya Ashrama ("Forty Teachings in Five Verses") that so pleased the Swami at least in respect of the typeface that he has asked whether the font can be sent him in a Mac version. This is pleasing--but now I cannot find where I got it, and do not recall whether it is available for the Mac. This is embarrasing, and I wonder whether anyone can help me. Best, Stan Rice (at the Society of Abidance in Truth) -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Wed Feb 14 07:03:14 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 07:03:14 +0000 Subject: Photo of manuscripts Message-ID: <161227022847.23782.11924493772505128746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward the following message. To all those interested in digital microfilming this may come as a godsent (or so we hope). Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Tue, 13 Feb 96 23:00:04 -0600 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude Setzer) Organization: Maharishi International Subject: Photo of manuscripts To: gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Priority: normal I am not amember of the indology conference so cannot post this directly. Please post this response to your and several other questions about making copies of manuscripts and other items. There is a fantastic product that recently came on the market in the US. It is called "Snappy" and connects to a pc thorugh its parallel port. It uses advanced digital signal processing to get 4 or 5 times the physical resolution of a common camcorder. (there is nothing else like it on the market at any price) You can captue fantastic still photos using a tripod and a camcorder. It can take a lot of disk space, but at least you know instantly if you have a good shot or not. The cost is only $200 US. You can get a 4GB disk for about $1,000, which will hold quite a lot. Or you could get a 1 GB and bring along a CD recorder for about $1,000. Be careful, though, CD recorders tend to require the full SCSI capability of a docking port. They will not run on MAC SCSI portables or PC parrallel port SCSIs. A less expensive alternative would be to take a portable printer with you and print the shots as you take them. Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From zysk at is2.NYU.EDU Wed Feb 14 14:05:34 1996 From: zysk at is2.NYU.EDU (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 09:05:34 -0500 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227022857.23782.11471263477247157084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should appreciate it if someone could provide me with the current address of the Pali Text Society in the UK. Thanks. K. Zysk From ludo at shore.net Wed Feb 14 14:49:33 1996 From: ludo at shore.net (Ludovico Magnocavallo) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 09:49:33 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022859.23782.8343540001076747353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can visit our ftp server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ in the fonts directory you will be able to find the Bitstream Charter in Postscript (type 1) format, and some Macintosh True Tipe Fonts with all the diacritics for the Devanagari. Best regards, Arch. Ludovico Magnocavallo Technical Editor IJTS - EJVS - JSAWS http://www.shore.net/~india/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Indologists, > Some time ago I obtained a very nice version of Bitstream Charter > for Windows. I set a short booklet of Adi Sankaracharya, translated > by Swami Yogananda Sarasvati of Kaivalya Ashrama ("Forty Teachings > in Five Verses") that so pleased the Swami at least in respect of > the typeface that he has asked whether the font can be sent him > in a Mac version. > > This is pleasing--but now I cannot find where I got it, and do not > recall whether it is available for the Mac. This is embarrasing, and > I wonder whether anyone can help me. > > Best, Stan Rice (at the Society of Abidance in Truth) > > > > -- > Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com > > > > From TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu Wed Feb 14 15:55:13 1996 From: TPINTCH at wpo.it.luc.edu (Tracy Pintchman) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 09:55:13 -0600 Subject: Analogies to Kabbalah -Reply Message-ID: <161227022862.23782.8145177561571509286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Take a look at Barbara Holdrege's book, Veda and Torah (SUNY Press, 1996). >>> On 2/13, Srinivasan Pichumani wrote: >>For example, a god being the embodiment of the Veda; >>the letters of scripture being related to living >>creatures, deities, or the cosmos as to giving it >>life, form, definition, body, etc. through their >>organization or arrangement; the Vedas as a living >>thing; the letters of the scriptures being the >>mystical name of a god, etc. As far as I understand, the various Tantric traditions, to name one, abound with such concepts... the description of the Goddess as mAtrkArNa svarUpiNI a-ka-ca-Ta-ta-pAdi varNe ekAkSarI etc. or using bIjAkSara are examples of this. >>If anyone can help with general or specific references, >>it will be much appreciated. A.Bharati's "The Tantric tradition", Douglas Brooks's books, "Understanding Mantras" edited by Harvey Alper, Andre Padoux's "Vac: the concept of the word in selected Hindu Tantras", may be of help... -Srini. From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 10:10:00 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 10:10:00 +0000 Subject: Holi literature Message-ID: <161227022855.23782.17322363104530514665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know whether the festival Holi is named after Holikaa or the converse. However, I'd be very interested to know! Pure speculation: might holi be a contraction of holikaadahana??? Girish Beeharry From soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Wed Feb 14 04:40:38 1996 From: soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 10:10:38 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022851.23782.11777695135058836448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been using a very good font for the Mac. it is called LaserHindi Sanskrit and is available from Linguist?s Software Inc., PO Box 580, Edmonds, WA 98020-0580. Phone (206) 775-1130, Fax 771-5911. Some years ago it cost around $90. I also got information about another font from the same place, called MacHindi Sanskrit $79.95. Jay Jay Soni, Dr EMail: soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de Department of Indologie, Philipps University Marburg, Wilhelm-Roepke- Strasse 6F, Marburg, D-35032 Germany. Fax: (06421) 288913 Phone(06421) 284942 From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Wed Feb 14 15:14:13 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 10:14:13 -0500 Subject: Photo of manuscripts (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022860.23782.672016894681267316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A brief comment on the post on digital microfilming via camcorder and Snappy. Whether using this method or any other requiring a reliable power source, be sure to carry a sufficient supply of batteries and take precautions when drawing from local electrical power sources. Simple power converters (basic voltage converters, transformers) are insufficient to protect electronic equipment from damage if there are wide fluctuations in the power delivery system. A rule of thumb is the more power required, the more weight to be carried. Gene Thursby From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Wed Feb 14 10:30:45 1996 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 10:30:45 +0000 Subject: Holi literature Message-ID: <161227022853.23782.4947088269264208163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date sent: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:32:56 GMT > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Gene Thursby > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Holi discussion. > On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Allen Thrasher wrote: > > Is the festival named from the goddess or the goddess from the festival? > > Allen Thrasher > At the risk of turning this thread back along old lines that > became a bit entangled, may I ask if anyone would care to recommend any > interpretive writing on the Holi festival that has been published in the > past? I continue to find McKim Marriott's somewhat rash and now > thirty-year-old essay "The Feast of Love," in Milton Singer, ed., > _Krishna: Myths, Rites, and Attitudes_ (Honolulu: East-West Center Press, > 1966) of interest and capable of provoking interest in the festival > itself. Gene Thursby > See e.g.: Johann Jakob Meyer: Trilogie altindischer Maechte und Feste der Vegetation : ein Beitrag zur vergleichenden Religions- und Kulturgeschichte, Fest- und Volkskunde. Zuerich ; Leipzig : Niehans, (1937). - 339 S. (see especially part 1, pp. 137ff.) There are numerous entries under Holi- in: Barron Holland: Popular Hinduism and Hindu mythology : an annotated bibliography. Westport, Conn. [u.a.] : Greenwood Pr., 1979. - 394 S. ISBN 0-313-21358-5 Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de From rdsaran at umich.edu Wed Feb 14 20:27:54 1996 From: rdsaran at umich.edu (Richard D. Saran) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 15:27:54 -0500 Subject: Census Report Marwar 1891 Message-ID: <161227022866.23782.1231261605139982581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know if a copy of rapoTa maradumashumaarii raajamaaravaaRa baabata sana 1891 iisavii exists in its entirety in any library of the United States or United Kingdom? This is the Hindi census report compiled by Munshi Deviprasad, which includes a volume of Marwar caste histories. From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed Feb 14 21:43:44 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 15:43:44 -0600 Subject: Abstract Message-ID: <161227022868.23782.11951850121038382175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: The first talk in the South Asia Seminar series was by Prof. Gail Minault. The following is the abstract of the talk. This is also available at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/s.asia.sem.962.html Violating the Red Fort: Ritual Boundaries of Sovereignty in late Mughal and Early British India by Gail Minault Abstract The Mughal empire rested upon a base of military power, sustained by the loyalty of men of talent to the central figure of authority, the emperor. The emperor's authority was sustained by an elaborate structure of symbols and rituals. These rituals took various forms, all of them designed to confirm the personal ties of loyalty between the emperor and his officers at the apex of the Mughal administrative hierarchy. Symbolizing the grant of patronage and protection on the one hand, and clientage and service on the other, these rituals also linked imperial authority to divine authority. After an introductory section in which the Mughal structure of symbols and rituals is explained, including such rituals as the jharoka, and the practice of exchanging nazars (gifts) for khilats (robes of honor), the paper then discusses the ways in which these rituals were participated in, and gradually changed, during the early years of British rule. At first, early British officers willingly offered nazars as symbolic of loyalty and received in return robes of honor, titles, and offices. Later, however, the British forbade their officers from accepting Mughal titles, and finally they discontinued the practices of offering nazars and receiving khilats. Bishop Heber's description of his audience with Akbar Shah in 1824 is quoted, as are a number of policy pronouncements gradually repudiating ritual interactions. The violation of the Red Fort referred to in the title was the disrespectful behavior of the Resident, Hawkins, in 1829, who rode into the Diwan-i-khas, penetrating the private area of the palace set off by the lal purdah (red curtain). He was reprimanded for his actions, but they were symptomatic of an overall withdrawal of support by the British to Mughal authority in this period. Thanks. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 17:20:25 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 17:20:25 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022873.23782.2861927742189597846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stanley Rice said: > > Some time ago I obtained a very nice version of Bitstream Charter > for Windows. > This is pleasing--but now I cannot find where I got it, and do not > recall whether it is available for the Mac. It is available from INDOLOGY: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html and choose "supplementary gopher/software" or by anonymous ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software The font is available in PostScript or TrueType formats; the file names make clear which is which. I assume the Mac wants the latter type, though I have never used a Mac and am not sure. Another, similar font called Utopia was recently added to the offerings. Try it out? Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 17:26:51 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 17:26:51 +0000 Subject: Ordering Sanskrit MS microfilms via INDOLOGY web page Message-ID: <161227022876.23782.8982062679438348303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the first page of the INDOLOGY web page, I have mounted a rather amateurish system for ordering microfilm copies of Sanskrit manuscripts from the Wellcome Insitute's library. I'd be interested in your reactions. The setup is amateurish because the UCL web server doesn't support CGI programming at the moment (security risk). So my workaround requires you to upload a 140k file and to remember the shelf number and copy it into an order form. Still, it is easier than writing a letter. And if you keep a copy of the MS list, and the order form, on your hard disk, you need never upload them again. :-) NB NB NB NB This is very much a trial. Your web browser needs to support "mailto". Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. FAX: +44 171 611 8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Wed Feb 14 18:57:01 1996 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (Damien Keown) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 18:57:01 +0000 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227022864.23782.16409656324729275044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:12 14/02/96 GMT, you wrote: > >I should appreciate it if someone could provide me with the current >address of the Pali Text Society in the UK. Thanks. K. Zysk 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD Tel: 01865 142125 Damien Keown From AmitaSarin at aol.com Thu Feb 15 00:36:10 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 19:36:10 -0500 Subject: Holaka Message-ID: <161227022869.23782.16523324117452639383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Stutley's Dictionary of Hinduism, Holaka is commonly called Holi. This book, refering to Monier-Williams Sanskrit English Dictionary, suggests that the word Holaka is perhaps derived from a cry, shout or sound in singing. Auboyer's "Daily Life in Ancient India,"p. 144 is also suggested as a further reference on the subject. Basham in "The Wonder that was India" states that the festival was originally held in honor of Kama, the Love god. Hope this is helpful. Amita Sarin From hgroover at qualitas.com Thu Feb 15 13:18:58 1996 From: hgroover at qualitas.com (Henry Groover) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:18:58 -0500 Subject: Ordering Sanskrit MS microfilms via INDOLOGY web page -Reply Message-ID: <161227022880.23782.14121215407449083752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>> Dominik Wujastyk 02/15/96 07:23am >>> On the first page of the INDOLOGY web page, I have mounted a rather amateurish system for ordering microfilm copies of Sanskrit manuscripts from the Wellcome Insitute's library. I'd be interested in your reactions. [*snip*] >HG>> Dear Dominik, Please convey my regards to your *very* intimate anagrammatic acquaintance Kinimod for one of the most _excellent_ satirical flames I've ever read (equally satisfying was Dr. Wetzel's response). Haven't had a chance to visit your website yet, but I've been _dying_ to find a source for MSS, for love or money, as I don't have any academic connections. Money is no problem - all my translation projects are independent - but I just don't have the time and resources to take trips to India, root about in libraries, etc. For that matter, any from-the-ground-up tutorial material on how to go about obtaining manuscripts would be greatly appreciated. My main interest is in Gaudiya Vaishnava commentaries. Regards, Henry Groover Hgroover at qualitas.com >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 15 96 Feb EST 09:22:14 Date: 15 Feb 96 09:22:14 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: Kashmir Shaivism In various books and articles I see all kinds of versions of this: Kashmir Shaivism, Kashmiri Shaivism, Kashmirian Shaivism, Shaivism of Kashmir, - Shivaism, and in German: Kashmir Shaivismus, Kashmir Shivaismus, Kas(c)hmirischer Shivaismus .... Is there a standard term, both in English and German? Is any one term more justified than others? Thanks for your help. Hans-Georg Tuerstig 100734.2313 at compuserve.com From aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi Thu Feb 15 08:07:08 1996 From: aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi (Asko H S Parpola) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:07:08 +0200 Subject: European institutional network for classical South Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227022871.23782.14878607196124695021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a meeting held at Gothenburg on 12-13 February, 1996, the following university institutes/departments or their Indological sections decided to establish an institutional network for collaboration in the field of classical South Asian studies in Europe: - Institute of Comparative Indoeuropean linguistics at the University of Gothenburg (Folke.Josephson at compphil.gu.se), - Institute of Oriental Languages at the University of Stockholm (Claus.Oetke at orient.su.se) (Oetke's address is not yet in operation, for the time being communicate via William.Smith at orient.su.se), - Department of Comparative Religion at the University of Stockholm (Berglie at rel.su.se), - Institute of African and Asian Studies at the University of Uppsala (Gunilla.Gren-Eklund at afro.uu.se), - Institute of East-European and Oriental Studies at the University of Oslo (G.v.Simson at easteur-orient.uio.no), - Department of Comparative Religion at the University of Oslo (Jens.Braarvik at iks.uio.no) - Department of Asian and African Studies at the University of Helsinki (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) - Department of Oriental Studies at the University of Lausanne (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) The member institutions of this European network, which is open to other European academic institutions to join, have in principle agreed to collaborate and help each other in various ways - the exact terms and modes of collaboration are to be decided in each case separately and to mutual benefit, taking advantage of the possibilities offered by various Eoropean and international programmes. ---- Asko Parpola (E-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) ---------------------------------------------------------- Department of Asian and African Studies, Univ. of Helsinki >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 15 96 Feb EST 09:59:00 Date: 15 Feb 96 09:59:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: re: Census Report Marwar 1891 Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I do not know of library holdings of this work, but I have seen a modern reprint of it. Unfortunately I do not remember the publishing details. I think it was from a Rajasthani press and within about the last 10 years. Peter Friedlander ------------- Original Text Does anyone know if a copy of rapoTa maradumashumaarii raajamaaravaaRa baabata sana 1891 iisavii exists in its entirety in any library of the United States or United Kingdom? This is the Hindi census report compiled by Munshi Deviprasad, which includes a volume of Marwar caste histories. From magier at columbia.edu Thu Feb 15 15:12:22 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:12:22 -0500 Subject: Census Report Marwar 1891 Message-ID: <161227022882.23782.6299104616769027738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I do not know of library holdings of this work, but I have seen a modern > reprint of it. Unfortunately I do not remember the publishing details. I > think it was from a Rajasthani press and within about the last 10 years. > Peter Friedlander > ------------- > Original Text > Does anyone know if a copy of rapoTa maradumashumaarii raajamaaravaaRa > baabata sana 1891 iisavii exists in its entirety in any library of the > United States or United Kingdom? This is the Hindi census report > compiled by Munshi Deviprasad, which includes a volume of Marwar caste > histories. The original is available in microfilm from Library of Congress. Copies of the film, at least, exist at LC and also at the Center for Research Libraries in Chicago (home page http://wwwcrl.uchicago.edu/crlhp.html). Here is the bibliographic record for the microfilm. I didn't find a record of the reprint mentioned by Peter Friedlander. David Magier =================== Rapo_ta Maraduma_sum_ar_i R_ajam_arav_a_ra, b_abata sana 1891 _Isav_i [microform]. -- Jodhapura : Sensapresa, R_ajam_arav_a_ra, <1892- v. <2 > ; 32 cm. In Hindi. Cover title. "Bam_ujiba hukma _Sr_i Darab_ara R_aja M_arav_a_ra ke ... chhap_i." Summary: Census report of 1891 of the princely state of Jodhpur. Incomplete contents: -- 2. M_arav_a_ra ke paragano_mk_i mojev_ara maraduma_sum_ar_i kakk_abatt_is_i ke his_abase maya ted_adarekha aura kosa hareka g_a_mvake sadaramuk_ama hak_umata se daraja hai. Master microform held by: DLC. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1985- . microfiche <8- > ; 11 x 15 cm. LCCN: 85908444//r87 L.C. CALL NO: Microfiche.85/61373 (H) From oclc-fs at oclc.org Thu Feb 15 10:17:05 1996 From: oclc-fs at oclc.org (oclc-fs at oclc.org) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:17:05 +0000 Subject: FirstSearch text delivery Message-ID: <161227022890.23782.17855372298563405836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE DO NOT REPLY OR SEND MESSAGES TO THIS EMAIL ADDRESS. ------------------------------------------------------------ ACCESSION: 17141457 TITLE: Rapota Maradumasumari Rajamaravara, babata sana 1891 Isavi PLACE: Jodhapura : PUBLISHER: Sensapresa, Rajamaravara, YEAR: 1985 9999 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: v. <2 > ; 32 cm. NOTES: In Hindi. Cover title. "Bamujiba hukma Sri Darabara Raja Maravara ke ... chhapi." Master microform held by: DLC. -- 2. Maravara ke paraganomki mojevara maradumasumari kakkabattisi ke hisabase maya tedadarekha aura kosa hareka gamvake sadaramukama hakumata se daraja hai. Census report of 1891 of the princely state of Jodhpur. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1985- . microfiche <8- > ; 11 x 15 cm. ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using FirstSearch. This e-mail account is only for distribution of FirstSearch documents. Please contact your librarian with comments or concerns. ------------------------------------------------------------ From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Feb 15 15:17:29 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:17:29 -0500 Subject: a bit of help? Message-ID: <161227022884.23782.8411850025875796465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan, Now that I have had a chance to look up the MB on P. 3.2.1, here are my comments. I am not sure it dierctly assists with the interpretation of "yogAcAra", but has a lot of indirectly interesting implications. Theoretically, one can have the affix aN by this rule to derive 'AcAra' in 'yogAcAra' with the agentive meaning: yogam Acarati iti yogAcAraH. However, with such a derivation, by the standard rules of accents, the word would be accented on the last syllable, i.e. the affix aN. Secondly, the word -AcAra thus derived with the affix aN, P.4.1.15 predicts its feminine form with 'I', i.e. yogAcArI', rather than as 'yogAcArA'. KAtyAyana's vArttika 7 (p. 95) brings up issues related to both accents and feminine form. Patanjali's example kalyANAcAra illustrates the portion -Acari in the vArttika. KAtyAyana proposes two things: with the root A+car, we should have the affix Na, rather than aN. Secondly, he proposes that the first member of this compound retains its original accent, a pattern of behavior similar to a BahuvrIhi. Why the affix Na, instead of aN? With aN, P.4.1.15 predicts a feminine form in 'I', while with Na, one gets the default feminine form in 'A'. This is explained by the MB in line 24: kimartham idam ucyate. pUrvapadaprakRti- svaratvaM ca vakzyAmi IkAraS ca mA bhUd iti. The discussion that follows goes back and forth on whether one can have a BahuvrIhi in examples like mAMsabhakzaH. It shows that in some examples Patanjali is willing to admit the possibility of a BahuvrIhi, but not in others. The main point seems to be that with a BahuvrIhi, one can get optional forms like mAMsakAmaH/mAMsakAmakaH (p. 96, lines 3-4). The discussion does not say anything about kalyANAcAraH, and certainly nothing about yogAcAraH. One thing we cannot check is the accent of yogAcAraH in its actual attestations, because these are all late. Perhaps what one can check is the feminine form, if such is attested, and if a form like yogAcAraka is also used. The latter especially would support a BahuvrIhi interpretation. The BahuvrIhi interpretation for a late expression is certainly not out of the question. In fact, the huge Prakrit dictionary/encyclopedia AbhidhAnarAjendra on the word 'jogAcAra' suggests a BahuvrIhi interpretation: yogena AcAraH yasya: yoga+A+car+ghaN(palatal). This affix derives an action noun in Panini, rather than an agent noun, as with the affixes aN, or KAtyAyana's Na. I hope this gives you some food for thought. Roth-Boehtlingk's dictionary, however, notes the variant reading yogAcArya for yogAcAra. They don't accept it, but you may look into it as well. I am also posting this note on Indology. Perhaps, someone else may have some further suggestions. All the best, Madhav On Tue, 13 Feb 1996 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > I hope you are well. > > I have a Patanjali question. It was suggested by H. Nakamura (if I > understand him right) that the term yogaacaara, which occurs in Buddhist > texts in the sense of "one who practices yoga," is to be understood according > to P III.2.1 (karma.ny-a.N) -- and not as a bahuvriihi (again, if I > understand him correctly). I took a look at Mahaabhaa.sya (volume 2, p.95 > line 24 and following in Kielhorn seems to me the relevant discussion), but I > had some trouble understanding the text. Would you mind explaining to me > what is going on here, and whether it is possible to understand yogaacaara > according to this rule? I have always assumed that the term must be a > bahuvriihi (it sometimes occurs with bhik.su, in which case I think it is > clearly an adjective). > Thank you in advance for your help! > > best regards, jonathan > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Feb 15 10:20:51 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:20:51 +0000 Subject: Digital cameras and Sanskrit MSS Message-ID: <161227022874.23782.6359383247401248470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many years ago in a small MSS library in Nadiad, I was refused permission to photograph a MS. I asked whether I could nevertheless copy it out by hand. That was no problem. So I sat down and spent a couple of days writing the thing out. Everyone was very kind and friendly, and at tea breaks etc., we got to know each other a bit. An old fellow who could speak a little Sanskrit was brought in, so that was nice too. At the end of copying, I folded up my stuff, and said how delighted I was to have the MS, etc. Everyone was pleased. I said that there might, however, have been some errors in my copying. Everyone agreed, sadly. I asked whether I could take some photos of the MS, so that I could correct any errors I had made. No problem. So I shot the MS. But I took *so* much more away with me than the photos. I had read the text, had notes, and had friends. The main points I wish to draw out from this experience are that in MS work, personal relationships are very important (and nice). And low-tech is often better. Why not copy out a MS by hand, instead of toting about all this ridiculous high-tech stuff that just frightens everyone, causes trouble, and doesn't promote your understanding of the text or the social milieu in which the text might have been created and transmitted? As I get more experience with this business, I get more sympathy with cranky curators in provincal Indian libraries who don't respond well when we zoom in with our Hassleblads and six-week visas, claiming to be scholars of Sanskrit. Surely everything about this fast-food approach belies our stated intent of deepening our understanding of Sanskrit culture? Dominik Wujastyk, From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Thu Feb 15 16:24:31 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 11:24:31 -0500 Subject: Digital cameras and Sanskrit MSS Message-ID: <161227022886.23782.6960333643453714014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An appreciation (and very slight commentary) on the very humanizing insights of Dominik Wujastyk that began: > Many years ago in a small MSS library in Nadiad, I was refused > permission to photograph a MS. I asked whether I could nevertheless > copy it out by hand. That was no problem. So I sat down and spent a > couple of days writing the thing out. Everyone was very kind and > friendly, and at tea breaks etc., we got to know each other a bit. An > old fellow who could speak a little Sanskrit was brought in, so that was > nice too. The few times I've got in deep trouble in India were when I brought it with me in the shape of equipment and an unworkable attitude of urgency and a misplaced sense of importance. At the Aj Press in Varanasi in the late 1960s, I wanted to film articles from the 1920s published in that prestigious daily newspaper. There was no problem with reading and copying out selections, and I thought that the editorial staff had given permission for use of my copy stand and camera for microfilming as well. As it happened, I was hasty, had not secured permission from all members of the staff, and had come into the office during a simmering generational dispute. My push to "be efficient" and to "document everything" brought the dispute to the surface, disrupted the atmosphere at the Press for several days, brought charges that I must be a spy because an ordinary person could not afford such expensive equipment, and required many cups of tea and belatedly sensitive listening to people who were at the Aj long before I arrived on the scene. It remains a painful recollection and a hard way (not only for me) to learn that respectful conversation, tea, and patient cooperation with people -- who are in many ways senior colleagues -- at a local site are the greater part of a research expedition. What one quite evidently takes away when departing is at most only a quarter of the whole encounter. Gene Thursby From SKTJLBS at srv0.arts.ed.ac.uk Thu Feb 15 12:57:52 1996 From: SKTJLBS at srv0.arts.ed.ac.uk (John Brockington) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 12:57:52 +0000 Subject: European inst. network for classical South Asia Message-ID: <161227022878.23782.2584089840279706689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to welcome warmly the announcement just posted on the Indology list by Asko Parpola about the establishing of an institutional network for collaboration in the field of classical South Asian studies in Europe. We should all be grateful to our colleagues in Scandinavia for taking this initiative. It will be, I am sure, an important development and on behalf of the Department of Sanskrit in Edinburgh I wish to announce that we should be pleased to become involved with this venture in whatever way proves feasible for a department of just two members (Paul Dundas and myself). John Brockington Dr J. L. Brockington Department of Sanskrit The University of Edinburgh 7 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh, EH8 9LW tel: +131 650 4174 e-mail: J.L.Brockington at ed.ac.uk From athr at loc.gov Thu Feb 15 21:59:01 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 16:59:01 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227022893.23782.14735001671285622413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Library of Congress subject headings, which will be used for cataloging by libraries in the US and several other countries, the term for uniting all these is "Kashmir S'aivism" (the single quote representing the acute accent, of course). This may be useful in searching many databases. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, \9$9J7F8@*?f:&8 wrote: > In various books and articles I see all kinds of versions of this: Kashmir > Shaivism, Kashmiri Shaivism, Kashmirian Shaivism, Shaivism of Kashmir, - > Shivaism, and in German: Kashmir Shaivismus, Kashmir Shivaismus, > Kas(c)hmirischer Shivaismus .... > Is there a standard term, both in English and German? Is any one term more > justified than others? > Thanks for your help. > Hans-Georg Tuerstig > 100734.2313 at compuserve.com > > > From mitra at aecom.yu.edu Thu Feb 15 21:59:17 1996 From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 16:59:17 -0500 Subject: International Library: Appeal for books and manuscripts Message-ID: <161227022891.23782.17196463127043962141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> India News Network Digest Thu, 15 Feb 96 Volume 2 : Issue 758 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:31:52 +0530 From: S Ramani #3 International Library: Appeal for books and manuscripts New Delhi, Feb 13 (PTI) Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Viswa Maha Vidyalaya, a deemed University named after Paramachcarya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam in Tamil Nadu, has appealled for contributions including books and manuscripts to help it in effectively integrating world culture. An international library, set up as part of the deemed University, seeks to synthesise and correlate traditional scientific and analytical knowledge expounded in Sanskrit and other languages of Bharat, and the scientific knowledge of the modern age and to prove the need for both. Already a store house of more than 50,000 books, the library aims at promoting research in integrating the traditional knowledge of the hoary past and the modern scientific and technological studies and to bring out their contemporary relevance through applied sciences. The deemed University and the library have been working to promote research in Indian culture, religion and philosophy and propagate their value to all sections of people in the country and abroad too, library functionaries said here today. Books on veda, vedanga, darsana, purana, ayurveda, silpa, arthasasthra, kavya, music, folklore, temples, history, astrology, science, electronics, communication, mathematics, commerce, business administration, management, behavioural sciences and other subjucts are being acquired in the library. In addition, there are over 5000 palmleaf manuscripts on a wide range of subjects which are being processed for microfilming. __________________________________________________________This is for FYI___ From athr at loc.gov Thu Feb 15 22:17:28 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 17:17:28 -0500 Subject: Census Report Marwar 1891 Message-ID: <161227022895.23782.15581913241343527378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has vol. 2 available on microfiche: LCCN: 85-908444 CALL NO: Microfiche 85/61373 (H) TITLE: Rapota Maradumasumari Rajamaravara, babata sana 1891 Isavi PLACE: Jodhapura : PUBLISHER: Sensapresa, Rajamaravara, YEAR: 1985 9999 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: v. <2 > ; 32 cm. NOTES: In Hindi. Cover title. "Bamujiba hukma Sri Darabara Raja Maravara ke ... chhapi." Master microform held by: DLC. -- 2. Maravara ke paraganomki mojevara maradumasumari kakkabattisi ke hisabase maya tedadarekha aura kosa hareka gamvake sadaramukama hakumata se daraja hai. Census report of 1891 of the princely state of Jodhpur. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1985- . microfiche <8- > ; 11 x 15 cm. There is also this related title. Can it in fact be v. 1? LCCN: 84-907138 CALL NO: Microfiche 84/61047 * AUTHOR: Jodhpur (Princely State) TITLE: Majmuah-yi qavaid aur hidayat-i am mardum shumari, Raj Marvar babat 1891 Majamua kavayada aura hidayata ama maradumasumari, Raja Maravada, sana 1891 Isavi. PLACE: [Jodhpur : PUBLISHER: s.n., YEAR: 1984 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 67, 8, 10, 8 p. ; 26 cm. NOTES: Hindi and Urdu. Master microform held by: DLC. Rules, regulations, and orders relating to 1891 demographic survey in Marwar region in Jodhpur. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1984. 2 microfiche ; 11 x 15 cm. OTHER: Majamua kavayada aura hidayata ama maradumasumari, Raja Maravada, sana 1891 Isavi. *"LL" means it should be in the Law Library, but in fact the positive is in the Asian Division. This should be mentioned on any request for loan or purchasing a copy. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Richard D. Saran wrote: > Does anyone know if a copy of rapoTa maradumashumaarii raajamaaravaaRa > baabata sana 1891 iisavii exists in its entirety in any library of the > United States or United Kingdom? This is the Hindi census report > compiled by Munshi Deviprasad, which includes a volume of Marwar caste > histories. > > From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Fri Feb 16 01:51:13 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 19:51:13 -0600 Subject: Holi discussion appreciation Message-ID: <161227022899.23782.16251337181506402125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear gentlemen, You wrote on 7th feb ; " Please set us straight .How would you describe theholi festival/ Then we can put this to bed " I suggest that we describe holi in a short way as a religious , social , carnival .I have contacted someone who lived the experience of celebrating holi in the meaningful way and he has agreed to write more details on holi to the indology group . i am requesting him often to reply. He has agreed to do so . I hope that this is satisfactory to all at present until details of celebrating holi comes later on the internet . Thanks for all of you to have extended a kind hearing to the suggestion on meaninful and correct intrepretations of hinduism by scholars . M.Rajagopalanz From garzilli at shore.net Fri Feb 16 00:57:53 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 19:57:53 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227022897.23782.11532867214590005216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term "Kashmir Shaivaism" was first introduced by S. C. Chandra Chatterji in his book *Kashmir Shaivism* (Srinagar 1914, KSTS), p. 1. He writes: "The first beginnings of what has been called [!?] 'Kashmir Shaivaism', to distinguish it from other forms of Shaivaism known and still practised in different parts of India,...". He put together the texts of this system (called svAtantrya-vAda, AbhAsa-vAda, trika by Abhinava, etc.) and established the KSTS and the term itself (even though G. Buehler in 1877 published on these texts the *Detailed Report of a Tour in Search of Sanskrit Manuscript*). MAdhava in XIV cent. deals with 4 Shivaite schools, one of them being the PratyabhijJnA, which is part of the Trika system. No mention of any "Kashmira" school. After Chatterji the system was called with many variants of his terminolgy. (KSemarAja in his PHr distinguishes between the Tantra, Kula, and Trika systems...I mean that there are also variants and overlapping as regards the names of the various schools -- see the Introduction to my *The BhAvopahaAra of CakrapANinAtha*, Supplemento n. 74 agli ANNALI, vol. 53, IUO, Naples 1993) Well, from Ziva ---> Zaiva, from Shiva ---> Shivaite, I suppose (in English). However, why don't you turn the question also to the IJTS readers?:) Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School ****************************************************** On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, \9$9J7F8@*?f:&8 wrote: > In various books and articles I see all kinds of versions of this: Kashmir > Shaivism, Kashmiri Shaivism, Kashmirian Shaivism, Shaivism of Kashmir, - > Shivaism, and in German: Kashmir Shaivismus, Kashmir Shivaismus, > Kas(c)hmirischer Shivaismus .... > Is there a standard term, both in English and German? Is any one term more > justified than others? > Thanks for your help. > Hans-Georg Tuerstig > 100734.2313 at compuserve.com > > From filipsky at site.cas.cz Thu Feb 15 20:52:27 1996 From: filipsky at site.cas.cz (filipsky at site.cas.cz) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 21:52:27 +0100 Subject: Holi discussion. Message-ID: <161227022888.23782.8111287117963017194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is the festival named from the goddess or the goddess from the festival? >Allen Thrasher > > >On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: > >> >Apparently, the name of Holi is connected to HolikA, a rAk.sasI who >> >is either the sister or the niece of PrahlAda, the pious son of >> >Hira.nyakas'ipu, the king asura who was shredded to death by Narasi.mha. >> >> As far as I know, HolikA was the sister of Hira.nyakashipu. >> > > >> Girish Beeharry >> >> According to Goesta Liebert (Iconographic Dictionary of the Indian Religions, Brill, Leiden 1976, p. 105), HolikA (Hi. HolkA MAtA) is the patroness of the holi festival; may originally have been a rakSasI or a female demon. During the Holi festival she is represented as a straw puppet which is chased by the children and finally burnt in fire. For further reading one is a bit disappointed to be offered only the time-hallowed H. von Glasenapp's Der Hinduismus (Muenchen 1922, p. 354: "Am Abend wird ein Feuer angezuendet, auf welchem eine Strohpuppe verbrannt wird), further L'Inde classique by L. Renou and J. Filliozat, vol. 1, p. 590, and W. Koppers, Die Bhil in Zentralindien, Horn-Wien 1948, p. 149. N.N. Bhattacharyya in his Glossary of Indian Religious Terms and Concepts (Manohar, Delhi 1990, p. 99) calls holi also holikA (as well as HutAS'anI and PhAlgunikA) and suggests that the word may be derived from homa. NyAyakoS'a or Dictionary of Technical Terms of Indian Philosophy by MahAmahopAdhyAya BhImAchArya JhalakIkar first published as early as in 1874, but later thoroughly revised and substantially enlarged by MahAmahopAdhyAya VAsudev ShAstrI Abhyankar (The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1978, p. 1086), quoting PuruSArthacintAmaNi, has the following to say on the subject of HolikA (s.v.): "savaduSTApaho homaH sarvarogopaS'AntidaH/ kriyatesyAM dvijaiH pArtha tena sA holikA smRtA//309// atra viSeS'aH sArdhayAmatrayaM vAM syAddvitIye divase yadA/ pratipadvardhamAnA tu tadA sA holikA smRtA//312//" An even earlier authority, Edward Moor, in his The Hindu Pantheon, first published in 1810 and reprinted by Asian Educational Services (New Delhi 1981), refers to the festival as Huli, and goes on saying (p. 157): "The Huli, among the Hindus, reminds one strongly of the Saturnalia with the Romans: people of low condition take liberties with their superiors in a manner not admissible on other occasions. The chief fun in public is throwing coloured powders on the clothes of persons passing in the streets, and squirting about tinted waters. Dignified persons avoid, as much as they can, appearing abroad while these jocularities are passing, unless with the view of gaining popularity they condescend to partake in them: in general they confine themselves to their houses, and sport with their women... Sending simpletons on idle errands contributes also to the delights of Huli: this is performed exactly similar to our ceremony of making April-fools on the first of that month and is common to all ranks of Hindus; and Mahomedans, indeed, join in this, as well as in other items of Huli fun and humour." An interesting possibility to speculate about is suggested in the Dictionary of Vedic Rituals by Chitrabhanu Sen (Concept, Delhi 1978, p. 168, s.v. holAka): "a minor rite performed by maidens who are desirous of attaining good fortune; RAkA is the deity; also called HolAkA, RAkA, etc. - KATHaka gRhyasUtra LXXIII.1." But we should probably be wary of the pitfall referred to in the following quote from Moore (p. 212): "A punster, as he ought to be called, rather than an etymologist; or, perhaps, he was ridiculing the strained application of a pliant etymology; derived our holiday from huli day." Jan Filipsky Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 From AmitaSarin at aol.com Fri Feb 16 12:27:14 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 07:27:14 -0500 Subject: Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227022903.23782.12036318659347172149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How does one join the Association for Asian Studies (USA)? Also when and where is the next meeting? Any one know? Thanks, Amita Sarin From magier at columbia.edu Fri Feb 16 14:23:23 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 09:23:23 -0500 Subject: Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227022907.23782.2600690496771057189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > How does one join the Association for Asian Studies (USA)? Also when and > where is the next meeting? Any one know? Thanks, Amita Sarin 48th Annual Meeting of THE ASSOCIATION FOR ASIAN STUDIES April 11 - 14, 1996 Hilton Hawaiian Village 2005 Kalia Road Honolulu, Hawaii 96815-1999 contact Program Chair: ------------------------------------------- Mary B. Rankin | SOUTH ASIA COORDINATOR OF PROGRAM COMM: | 1614 44th Street | Thomas Trautmann | Washington, DC 20007 | Department of History | phone: 202-337-8659 | University of Michigan | | Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1045 | or | 313-747-4899 (office) | | 313-764-6305 (messages) | Karen Fricke | 313-769-6261 (residence) | Meeting Coordinator | 313-747-4881 (FAX) | AAS Secretariat |___________________________________________| 1 Lane Hall University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 phone: 313-665-2490 Fax: 313-665-3801 From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Fri Feb 16 07:41:14 1996 From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Steiner Roland) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 09:41:14 +0200 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227022901.23782.4744118101771076906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:08:18 GMT, Kenneth G. Zysk wrote: > >I should appreciate it if someone could provide me with the current >address of the Pali Text Society in the UK. Thanks. K. Zysk Pali Text Society, 73 Lime Walk, Headington, Oxford OX3 7 AD. Roland Steiner Department of Indology, University of Marburg Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6F D-35032 Marburg Germany Tel.: 06421/282184 Fax: 06421/288913 email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 16 96 Feb EST 12:27:00 Date: 16 Feb 96 12:27:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Manuscript sales Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I am not sure if this is an appropriate thing to introduce in this forum but I think that it is important. A manuscript dealer here in London is about to produce an illustrated catalogue of 175 manuscripts they have to sell in Sanskrit, Tibetan, Hindi and other languages. I have seen quite a few of them and some are very interesting. For instance: Gupta fragments of Buddhist canonnical works, an illustrated life of Mirabai, a large and unusual janamasaki collection from Amritsar of c. 1800, a fine ms of Banarasidasa's works copied in Agra by a third generation disciple of Banarasidasa, etc.etc. On the one hand if anyone were interested in buying any of them I could pass your name on to the dealers. On the other hand there is the issue of whether anyone should buy them or not. In a way the sale of manuscripts is not a thing to be encouraged as it may cause further 'exports' from South Asia and elsewhere. On yet another hand if they are here, then it is a pity if they go into private collectors hands rather than into libraries where they can be generally accessible. I find myself unable to decide what is the morally correct attitude to this issue. Peter Friedlander From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Fri Feb 16 18:05:13 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 10:05:13 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022911.23782.11572033869018488154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: > > The font is available in PostScript or TrueType formats; the file names > make clear which is which. I assume the Mac wants the latter type, > though I have never used a Mac and am not sure. Another, similar font > called Utopia was recently added to the offerings. Try it out? > > Dominik > Dear Dominik, Thank you very much. I must say I think Indology is a model for what the WWW should provide (much thanks to you.) Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Fri Feb 16 18:12:33 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 10:12:33 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac...thanks Message-ID: <161227022909.23782.17458287719393975491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, Much thanks for the reply on the Charter Sanskrit font... Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From srice at bbs.cruzio.com Fri Feb 16 18:22:13 1996 From: srice at bbs.cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 10:22:13 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Charter for the Mac Message-ID: <161227022912.23782.2321998065488791405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, Thank you very much for the information. I must say that Indology is a very helpful group. Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Feb 16 13:13:08 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 14:13:08 +0100 Subject: Manuscript sales Message-ID: <161227022905.23782.15183628860293192417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am not sure if this is an appropriate thing to introduce in this forum but >I think that it is important. >A manuscript dealer here in London is about to produce an illustrated >catalogue of 175 manuscripts they have to sell in Sanskrit, Tibetan, Hindi >and other languages. I have seen quite a few of them and some are very >interesting. For instance: Gupta fragments of Buddhist canonnical works, an >illustrated life of Mirabai, a large and unusual janamasaki collection from >Amritsar of c. 1800, a fine ms of Banarasidasa's works copied in Agra by a >third generation disciple of Banarasidasa, etc.etc. >On the one hand if anyone were interested in buying any of them I could pass >your name on to the dealers. >On the other hand there is the issue of whether anyone should buy them or >not. In a way the sale of manuscripts is not a thing to be encouraged as it >may cause further 'exports' from South Asia and elsewhere. >On yet another hand if they are here, then it is a pity if they go into >private collectors hands rather than into libraries where they can be >generally accessible. >I find myself unable to decide what is the morally correct attitude to this >issue. >Peter Friedlander Personally I am not interested in buying manuscripts. But I am concerned that if museums, libraries or scholars do not buy them as *entire* manuscripts, they may be resold to "art dealers" which then sell them a page or two at a time, often framed, as "art" or "calligraphy". The dealers themselves may not be in a position to assess the importance of the manuscripts as written documents. Manuscripts sold in such a way are scattered to the four winds, and can never again be re-assembled for scholarly examination. The indology net certainly seems to be an appropriate forum for discussion of this issue. Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Sat Feb 17 00:30:11 1996 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 16:30:11 -0800 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227022914.23782.16089200821125452522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, \9$9J7F8@*?f:&8 wrote: > In various books and articles I see all kinds of versions of this: Kashmir > Shaivism, Kashmiri Shaivism, Kashmirian Shaivism, Shaivism of Kashmir, - > Is there a standard term, both in English and German? Is any one term more > justified than others? A good, if not the most recent, discussion of the term may be found in Paul Eduardo Muller-Ortega, _The Triadic Heart of Siva: Kaula Tantrism of Abhinavagupta in the Non-Dual Shaivism of Kashmir_. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press, 1989. Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Sat Feb 17 04:32:11 1996 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 23:32:11 -0500 Subject: Kashmir Shaivism Message-ID: <161227022916.23782.9807194901071661422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A brief footnote to responses posted earlier to Dr. Tuerstig's question (the most recent from Lance Nelson who commended the fine study by Paul Eduardo Muller-Ortega): Also note the cautionary remarks by Gerald James Larson in his book review in Philosophy East and West, v.28 (1978), p.239, about the need to use care in treating any version of the KS terminology as if it unequivocally designated a unitary phenomenon. From amuellen at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Sat Feb 17 17:47:27 1996 From: amuellen at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 18:47:27 +0100 Subject: urdu wordprocessing system Message-ID: <161227022918.23782.10199368242827091754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues! I am looking urgently for a good Urdu wordprocessing system. "Good" means it should be able to handle footnotes and provide a beautiful laser-printout in nastaliq-style (fonts scalable), suitable for publications (I know, I ask for too much!?). Thanks for solutions! Martin Bemmann e-mail: amuellen at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Sun Feb 18 13:36:24 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 14:36:24 +0100 Subject: urdu wordprocessing system Message-ID: <161227022920.23782.10023901579219183707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear colleagues! > >I am looking urgently for a good Urdu wordprocessing system. "Good" means it >should be able to handle footnotes and provide a beautiful laser-printout in >nastaliq-style (fonts scalable), suitable for publications (I know, I ask >for too much!?). > >Thanks for solutions! > >Martin Bemmann > > >e-mail: amuellen at ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Im afraid I can't offer you a solution, but here is my experience for what little it is worth. I hope that if you do find a solution that you will share it with me. I have seen Urdu wordprocessors in Pakistan (for IBM compatibles) that produce attractive nastaliq. I also know people in the U.K. who use them. I don't know the names of the commercial versions or whether they can do footnotes and other document-processing things. The freeware versions of these fonts are called "Kaatib" and "Surkhaab". I forget which is nastaliq and which is naskh. The freeware varieties don't appear to have many word-processing capabilities, however I haven't used them myself, and doubt that the people I observed using them were aware of the full potential of modern word-processors. I have not been very satisfied with the Apple Persian and Arabic fonts which are adapted for Urdu by the addition of extra characters. All too often one must add a hyphen to fool the font into producing the desired character. A colleague of mine in France bought an Urdu font in India for his Mac, but never got it to work properly. I will forward your email to a few of my colleagues. Best regards, Ruth Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Mon Feb 19 16:31:34 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 10:31:34 -0600 Subject: Asking your help to find the full address Message-ID: <161227022928.23782.12065353451963929579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I need to send an urgent letter to the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Amsterdam. However, I do no have its full address or its FAX number. Could any of you help me in this regard? I would very much appreciate it. Best, kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Mon Feb 19 05:37:23 1996 From: soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 11:07:23 +0530 Subject: Problems with unsubscribing Message-ID: <161227022922.23782.8974671501034515752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have made several attempts to subscribe (temporarily) but I kept getting the *error condition - invalid request*, even after following the intructions carefully. Can someone help? Jay Jay Soni, Dr EMail: soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de Department of Indologie, Philipps University Marburg, Wilhelm-Roepke- Strasse 6F, Marburg, D-35032 Germany. Fax: (06421) 288913 Phone(06421) 284942 From jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu Mon Feb 19 16:54:59 1996 From: jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu (jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 11:54:59 -0500 Subject: Re. urdu word processor programs Message-ID: <161227022930.23782.14342615571388826259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To those interested in modern Indian language word processing programs: While in Pune this past summer, I had the pleasure of talking with several researchers at the Centre for Development of Advanced Computing [CDAC} about the possibility of a Sanskrit word processing program that was as sosphsticated as their programs for all major Indian languages, Arabic et al. Though they have not yet developed the Sanskrit program promised me within six months, they do have exceptional programs for the modern Indian languages--including Urdu. This includes both the Indian scripts and Roman alphabet and the ability to move between them. If you want to talk further with them, you may wish to get in touch with someone at CDAC which is on the campus of Pune University, Ganesh Khind, Pune 411 007. The email address for Dr. N. Subramanian at CDAC is subs at parcom.ernet.in. Their prices are about US $325 for a program of one Indian language and a little more if you have two or more Indian languages on a program. Good luck. Dan White jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de Mon Feb 19 11:00:00 1996 From: 0622660198-0001 at t-online.de (0622660198-0001 at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 12:00:00 +0100 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022940.23782.2184844631776038236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to bother you again: Who is the author of >Barbara Allen Request: I am looking for detailed information on the numerical value of devanagari consonants. Bhaaskararaaya mentions a few examples such as pa meaning the number one and ra meaning the number two (pakaara ekasa.mkhyaayaa vaacako rephastu dvitvasa.mkhyaayaa.h). He also gives a short quote of Varuci on the topic (quote starts with ka.tapayavargabhvairiha ...) and says that the counting should be from right to left. I would greatly appreciate any help about more details concerning the numerical value of all devanagari consonants (and vowels) - from Tantric sources and from Varuci's treatment of the topic. Thank you very much, Annette Wilke, c/o Inst. f. Religionswissenschaft Bern, Prof. Michaels From dplukker at inter.NL.net Mon Feb 19 12:24:27 1996 From: dplukker at inter.NL.net (dplukker at inter.NL.net) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 13:24:27 +0100 Subject: urdu wordprocessing system Message-ID: <161227022926.23782.17245637045401363307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am looking urgently for a good Urdu wordprocessing system. "Good" means it >should be able to handle footnotes and provide a beautiful laser-printout in >nastaliq-style (fonts scalable), suitable for publications (I know, I ask >for too much!?). > >Martin Bemmann > > 'Kaatib' is a free-ware, simple Nastaliq-wordprocessor, with scalable fonts. It is, however, not suitable for your ends (no footnotes, no indexing etc., and no Roman). There is a also commercial packet, Global Publisher, for DOS. I have only seen a brochure. It seems to have quite a lot of features (scalable fonts, Nastaliq *and* Roman, Keshidah for extended characters). It is, however, rather expensive: cheapest version is L 595,00, versions with more fonts L 795,00 and L 1595,00. Contact: Inaam Alvi Computers, 1st Floor, Shelozon Centre, Main University Road, Gulshan-e-Iqbal, Karachi-74300. tel. 4963508, fax 6647815. UK dealer: Ever Technology Computers, 218 Oldknow Road, Small Heath Birmingham BIO OHY, tel/fax 021-7666966. Then there is prof. Klaus Lagally's ARABTEX; beautiful Naskh, and with all TeX's typesetting capabilities. As far as I know, Lagally is working on the implementation of Nastaliq fonts. At this moment Urdu/Nastaliq commands will produce Naskh. Contact: Institut fuer Informatik, Univ. Stuttgart, Breitwiesenstrasse 20-22, D-8000 Stuttgart 80. Success, and please keep me informed, Dick Plukker India Institute, Amsterdam From 6500jwn at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Tue Feb 20 00:46:44 1996 From: 6500jwn at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Dr. Holdrege c/o John Nemec) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 16:46:44 -0800 Subject: 1996 AAR --"Hinduisms" & "Judaisms"--Call for Papers (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022937.23782.133276532977691772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague: The Consultation in Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms" of the American Academy of Religion was established in 1995 as a forum to bring together specialists in South Asia and Judaica to discuss topics pertaining to "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms," with the intention of developing alternative categories and conceptual frameworks to the Christian-based paradigms that have tended to dominate the academic study of religion. The first session of the Consultation was held at the 1995 Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Religion in Philadelphia and focused on the theme of purity, hierarchies, and boundaries. The 1995 session was a great success and featured a keynote address by the eminent anthropologist Mary Douglas along with papers by specialists in Judaica and South Asia. We invite paper proposals for the 1996 Annual Meeting of the AAR in New Orleans, in which we intend to convene two sessions. The first session will focus on language, orality, and textuality, with emphasis on the ways in which cosmological and theurgic conceptions of language in Hindu and Jewish traditions challenge prevailing scholarly conceptions of oral and written traditions. The second session, which will be co- sponsored by the AAR Group on the Ascetic Impulse in Religious Life and Thought, will be concerned with problematizing the category of "asceticism," with emphasis on the need to re-vision and expand the category to account for disciplines pertaining to food, sexuality, and other practices within Hindu and Jewish communities not generally classified as "ascetic" (for example, brahmanical priestly families and Hasidic communities). Paper proposals should address one of the two topics within either Hindu or Jewish traditions and need not be comparative. Presenters need not have expertise in both Hindu and Jewish traditions. Please send copies of proposals, in accordance with the guidelines delineated in the AAR Call for Papers 1996, to me at the following address: Department of Religious Studies, University of California, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, CA 93106 (Tel. 805-968-6100). Sincerely, Barbara A. Holdrege Co-Chair Consultation in Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms" ----------------------------------------------- American Academy of Religion Consultation COMPARATIVE STUDIES IN "HINDUISMS" AND "JUDAISMS" The American Academy of Religion Consultation in Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms" has been established to bring together scholars of South Asia and Judaica to engage in a series of sustained reflections on topics within "Hinduisms" and Judaisms," with the intention of developing alternative categories and conceptual frameworks to the Christian-based paradigms that have tended to dominate the academic study of religion. The politics of comparison has played a major role in the academic study of religion, and comparative studies in particular are replete with evaluative scales that hierarchize traditions or specific aspects of traditions. Up until recently the comparative study of religion, and the academic study of religion generally, has been dominated by evaluative scales based on paradigms of religious tradition that arose out of a specific and discernible Christian context. These paradigms have emphasized a series of hierarchical dichotomies between such categories as sacred and profane, belief and practice, doctrine and law, individual and community, universals and particulars, and tradition and modernity. While perhaps appropriate for the study of some religious traditions, such taxonomies become a strait jacket when applied to others. The Consultation focuses on traditions--Hinduisms and Judaisms--that construct other categories that bring to light different sets of relationships, such as those between religion and culture, ethnic identity and religious adherence, observance and nonobservance, and purity and impurity. Such relationships are obscured by the application of the prevailing models. While Christian paradigms give precedence to such categories as belief, doctrine, and theology and delineate notions of tradition-identity that are rooted in the missionary character of Christian traditions, Hinduisms and Judaisms provide alternative paradigms of religious tradition, in which priority is given to issues of practice, observance, and law, and notions of tradition-identity are delineated primarily in terms of ethnic and cultural categories that reflect the predominantly nonmissionary character of these traditions. It could be argued that brahmanical "Hinduism" and rabbinic "Judaism" in particular constitute two species of the same genus of religious tradition: as elite textual communities that have codified the norms of orthodoxy in the form of scriptural canons; as ethnocultural systems concerned with issues of family, ethnic and cultural integrity, blood lineages, and the intergenerational transmission of traditions; and as religions of orthopraxy characterized by hereditary priesthoods and sacrificial traditions, comprehensive legal systems, elaborate regulations concerning purity and impurity, and dietary laws. The purpose of the Consultation is to challenge scholars of religion to reconsider the Christian-based models that have tended to dominate the study of religion and to reconfigure our scholarly discourse to include alternative paradigms of religious tradition arising out of case studies of Hinduisms and Judaisms. Barbara A. Holdrege (co-chair) Department of Religious Studies University of California, Santa Barbara Santa Barbara, CA 93106 USA Tel: 805-968-6100 Fax: 805-893-2059 email: 71431.1046 at compuserve.com >?From 71203.2563 at compuserve.com 19 96 Feb EST 20:42:43 Date: 19 Feb 96 20:42:43 EST From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at compuserve.com> Subject: Re: urdu wordprocessing system On Sat, 17 Feb 1996 17:53:00, Martin Bemmann wrote: >I am looking urgently for a good Urdu wordprocessing system. Although I haven't used them myself, I know of a number of solutions available. You will find them at http://www.lainet.com/clr PC Magazine run a review of at least one of these packages. You can find it at: http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/issues/1420/pcm00058.htm Besides, you may conduct a search on zdnet, which will include all their publications. Their home page is at http://www.zdnet.com Good luck, Swami Gitananda 71203.2563 at compuserve.com From AmitaSarin at aol.com Tue Feb 20 00:03:09 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 19:03:09 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227022934.23782.13961291070725166703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ronograms that commemorated important dates were traditionally composed in the Islamic world. The numerical values of the consonants in the sentence added up to the date of the event. What is the relnship, if any, between Islamic chronograms and numerical values of Devanagiri consonants? Which came first? Did they develop independantly? Are chronograms also composed in Hindi? Dr. Venkt Raman, would you or anyone else on the forum care to comment? Thanks Amita Sarin From unknown at example.com Tue Feb 20 03:19:59 1996 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 21:19:59 -0600 Subject: Dr. Harold Schiffman's address??? Message-ID: <161227022939.23782.2009889078375597832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Harold Schiffman's Address? ******************************** I need urgently Dr. Harold Schiffman's address at University of Pennsylvania. Both e-mail & postal addresses, please. Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 20 06:48:10 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 22:48:10 -0800 Subject: Dr. Harold Schiffman's address??? Message-ID: <161227022942.23782.7754474112363991489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Schiffman's e-mail address is: . Frank F. Conlon Professor of History University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 Co-editor of H-ASIA On Tue, 20 Feb 1996 NAS_NG at vaxp.jsc.nasa.gov. wrote: > > Dr. Harold Schiffman's Address? > ******************************** > > I need urgently Dr. Harold Schiffman's address at University of Pennsylvania. > Both e-mail & postal addresses, please. > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov > > > From ersand at coco.ihi.ku.dk Tue Feb 20 07:49:51 1996 From: ersand at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 08:49:51 +0100 Subject: European institutional network for classical South Asian Studies (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022943.23782.12261040948949806506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:51:24 +0100 (MET) From: Erik Reenberg Sand To: Asko H S Parpola Subject: Re: European institutional network for classical South Asian Studies Dear Asko! Thank you for the initiative. I have just spoken to our director, and he has agreed that it would be a good idea for our institute to join the network too. So, if you would please add us to the list. Institute of History of Religion University of Copenhagen Njalsgade 80 DK-2300 Copenhagen S DENMARK Phone 35328957 Fax 35328956 On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Asko H S Parpola wrote: > In a meeting held at Gothenburg on 12-13 February, 1996, the following > university institutes/departments or their Indological sections decided to > establish an institutional network for collaboration in the field of > classical South Asian studies in Europe: > - Institute of Comparative Indoeuropean linguistics at the University of > Gothenburg (Folke.Josephson at compphil.gu.se), > - Institute of Oriental Languages at the University of Stockholm > (Claus.Oetke at orient.su.se) (Oetke's address is not yet in operation, > for the time being communicate via William.Smith at orient.su.se), > - Department of Comparative Religion at the University of Stockholm > (Berglie at rel.su.se), > - Institute of African and Asian Studies at the University of Uppsala > (Gunilla.Gren-Eklund at afro.uu.se), > - Institute of East-European and Oriental Studies at the University of > Oslo (G.v.Simson at easteur-orient.uio.no), > - Department of Comparative Religion at the University of Oslo > (Jens.Braarvik at iks.uio.no) > - Department of Asian and African Studies at the University of Helsinki > (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) > - Department of Oriental Studies at the University of Lausanne > (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) > > The member institutions of this European network, which is open to other > European academic institutions to join, have in principle agreed to > collaborate and help each other in various ways - the exact terms and > modes of collaboration are to be decided in each case separately and to > mutual benefit, taking advantage of the possibilities offered by various > Eoropean and international programmes. > > ---- > > Asko Parpola (E-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Department of Asian and African Studies, Univ. of Helsinki > > > > From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 20 14:29:07 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 09:29:07 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227022955.23782.5935911049753554276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would check the three vols. of: P. K. Gode on Indian cultural history where evrything from nose rings to cannons is dealt with. I cannot check now as my vols. have been stolen from my office.... Here it goes: AUTHOR: Gode, P. K. (Parshuram Krishna) TITLE: Studies in Indian cultural history / by P. K. Gode. PUB. INFO: Hoshiarpur : Vishveshvaranand Vedic Research Institute, 1960- DESCRIPTION: v. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Vishveshvaranand Indological series ; 9 Vishveshvaranand Institute publication ; 189 SUBJECTS: *S1 Technology--India--History. AUTHOR: Gode, P. K. (Parshuram Krishna) TITLE: Studies in Indian literary history / by P. K. Gode. EDITION: 1st ed. PUB. INFO: Bombay : Singhi Jain Sastra Sikshapith, 1953-<1956>. DESCRIPTION: v. <1-3, > : ports. ; 25 cm. SERIES: Shri Bahadur Singh Singhi memoirs, v. 4 Singhi Jaina series, no. 37- SUBJECTS: *S1 Indic literature--History and criticism. Good luck! MW. From pdb1 at columbia.edu Tue Feb 20 14:29:35 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 09:29:35 -0500 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022949.23782.4170473626592607319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Koenig-Bandini wrote: > Who is the author of >Barbara Allen On Tue, 20 Feb 1996 AmitaSarin at aol.com wrote: > What is the relnship, if any, between Islamic chronograms and numerical > values of Devanagiri consonants? Which came first? Did they develop > independantly? Are chronograms also composed in Hindi? The Islamic chorongrams are based on a particular alphabetical order, "abjad," which is very different from that normally used for Arabic (Alif, ba, ta...) but is close to that used in other Semitic languages particularly Hebrew (Aleph, beth, gimel, daleth...). In fact I believe it works almost exactly the way the Hebrew chronographic system does. This would mean its origins are somewhere in the pre-Islamic Middle East. I do not know of any Indic system that works the same way; but I've never looked into the question much and someone on the list probably knows better. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From magier at columbia.edu Tue Feb 20 14:38:32 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 09:38:32 -0500 Subject: Dr. Harold Schiffman's address??? Message-ID: <161227022952.23782.13090044181948294164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I need urgently Dr. Harold Schiffman's address at University of Pennsylvania. > Both e-mail & postal addresses, please. Prof. Schiffman's entry in The International Directory of South Asia Scholars lists his contact at University of Washington as follows. (He submitted his entry in summer of 1994. If anyone has a more up-to-date contact for him, please let me know as well, so I can update his entry. Thanks. David Magier magier at columbia.edu) =========================== submitted: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 16:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Harold (Hal) F. Schiffman Professor of Tamil and Dravidian Linguistics Adjunct Professor in Linguistics, Anthropology University of Washington Mailing Address: Dept. of Asian Languages DO-21 University of Washington Seattle WA 98195 USA phone: 206-543-6936 Fax: 206-685-4268 email: haroldfs at u.washington.edu From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Feb 20 14:43:30 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 09:43:30 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227022953.23782.8500183867978912293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The modern word 'sari' is linguistically linked to the relatively late Sanskrit words 'sh(palatal s)aaTikaa' and 'shaaTii'. Relatives of this word appear in Marathi word 'chaaTii'. These words are generally used for a wrap-around cloth used by ascetics. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Francois Voegeli wrote: > Dear members of the list, > Here is a question that a friend of mine not on this list asked me > to submit: > > Is there any reference in the sanskrit "mythological" litterature > (I thinks he refers mainly to the Epics, but puranas and, why not, kavya > should be included also) to the sari piece of clothing? > > I can't think of any. > Thanks in advance. > > Francois Voegeli > Fac. des lettres > Section de langues et civilisations orientales > Universite de Lausanne > BFSH 2 > CH-1015 > > Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 > Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 > E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch > > > > From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 20 17:43:42 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 09:43:42 -0800 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227022957.23782.8557086097081911614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since "-&" put me up to this, I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth on chronograms: -Some other good lists of words used in chronograms are D.C. Sircar's Indian Epigraphy, ppl.230-3; Bu:hler's Indian Paleography, pp. 84-86 (of the first English edition, in Indian Antiquary 33); and P.V. Kane's History of Dharmasastra vol. V, pt.1, pp. 701-3. -Chronograms are normally read in reverse order (ankaanaam vaamato gati.h), but there are occasional cases in which they have to be read in normal sequence; see e.g. Epigraphia Indica 34, p.178. -Just as a curiosity, in Java I saw an example of a visual chronogram at the Sultan's palace in Jogjakarta, which gave the date of construction (in Saka era) in the form of a scultured ornament of a snake, etc., with implied numerical values (I don't remember the details offhand). I think that this visual rendition of chronograms may have been a common practice in Indonesia, but I don't know of any Indian examples. -RS On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > Amita Sarin writes: > > >ronograms that commemorated important dates were traditionally composed in > >the Islamic world. The numerical values of the consonants in the sentence > >added up to the date of the event. > >What is the relnship, if any, between Islamic chronograms and numerical > >values of Devanagiri consonants? Which came first? Did they develop > >independantly? Are chronograms also composed in Hindi? > > I'm afraid I can't comment on the above. Richard Salomon once pointed > me to a good reference on South Indian Chronograms in > > Epigraphia Indica 3, p.38, ll.40-41; 4, pp.203-4; 34, pp.205-6. > > Perhaps he could pen a short note on this. > > - & > > From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Mon Feb 19 21:48:26 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 10:48:26 +1300 Subject: numerical value of devanagari Message-ID: <161227022932.23782.12826213251821244921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Annette Wilke writes: >Request: I am looking for detailed information on the numerical value >of devanagari consonants. Bhaaskararaaya mentions a few examples such as pa >meaning the number one and ra meaning the number two (pakaara Here are four references that treat the subject at length: Ifrah, G. From one tozero, Transl: Bair, L. New York, Viking Penguin Inc, 1985. Menninger, K. Number words and number symbols. Transl: Broneer, P, MIT Press, Cambridge, MA, 1969. Fleet, J.F. The Katapayadi system of expressing numbers, JRAS, 1911, 788-794. Datta B. and Singh A.N. History of Hindu mathematics, Parts 1 & II, Asia Publishing House, Bombay, 1962. I have recently written a paper which discusses numerical representations, especially the katapayadi formula to some extent. I would be glad to send you a copy if you like. Hope this helps. - & From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Tue Feb 20 11:26:53 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 11:26:53 +0000 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227022947.23782.5214425840080979349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Here is a question that a friend of mine not on this list asked me to submit: Is there any reference in the sanskrit "mythological" litterature (I thinks he refers mainly to the Epics, but puranas and, why not, kavya should be included also) to the sari piece of clothing? I can't think of any. Thanks in advance. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Tue Feb 20 12:21:00 1996 From: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 12:21:00 +0000 Subject: E. Journal of Vedic Studies 1,4 (Dec.95) Message-ID: <161227022945.23782.6930467102354802382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, How are you? Long time since I contacted you. I want to ask you if you would give me permission to publish two of your articles the one on EARLY SANSKRITIZATION. ORIGINS AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE KURU STATE. and the one on LOOKING FOR THE HEAVENLY CASKET either in our Journal of the Indological Society of Southern Africa or in our Departmental Journal called Nidaan. We have two journals and both come out around Nov-Dec each year. I am also publishing Enrica Garzili's article on Kashmir Shaivism. Could you confirm if you would give me permission. Thank you very much. with kind regards, Pratap +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Dr. P. Kumar Department of Hindu Studies & Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X 54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel: 031-820-2194 Fax: 031-820-2160 Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 20 96 Feb EST 10:47:00 Date: 20 Feb 96 10:47:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: chronograms Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Amita Sarin asked about chronograms in Hindi works These are quite common as a way for giving the date of the composition of a work. They follow, I think, the same conventions as are found in Sanskrit and Prakrit literature. Mostly terms like moon, for one, wing, for two etc. are used. There are some fine lists of such words used in chronograms. A good one is found in: Jinabhadrasuri jnana bhandara jaisalamera suci patra dvitiya khanda. Seva mandira, Ravati, Jodhpura, 1988. On the other hand the use of the Katapadya system to give a date for a Hindi work is very rare indeed. Dr Peter G. Friedlander Cataloguer of Hindi and Panjabi Manuscripts Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road London NW1 2BN England e-mail: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 00:37:13 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 13:37:13 +1300 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227022936.23782.1360477050045074025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amita Sarin writes: >ronograms that commemorated important dates were traditionally composed in >the Islamic world. The numerical values of the consonants in the sentence >added up to the date of the event. >What is the relnship, if any, between Islamic chronograms and numerical >values of Devanagiri consonants? Which came first? Did they develop >independantly? Are chronograms also composed in Hindi? I'm afraid I can't comment on the above. Richard Salomon once pointed me to a good reference on South Indian Chronograms in Epigraphia Indica 3, p.38, ll.40-41; 4, pp.203-4; 34, pp.205-6. Perhaps he could pen a short note on this. - & From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Tue Feb 20 22:06:45 1996 From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:06:45 -0800 Subject: Sprenger Collection Message-ID: <161227022967.23782.15611902207919470277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Does anyone know where the Sprenger collection of Indian mss. is currently housed, and if it has been catalogued and the catalogue published? How can one obtain a microfilm of a manuscript from this collection? My impression was that it was in the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in Berlin, but I would appreciate more concrete information. Thanks, Aditya Behl Assistant Professor of Hindi and Urdu Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies University of California at Berkeley From saleonar at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Feb 20 20:14:00 1996 From: saleonar at midway.uchicago.edu (spencer austin leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:14:00 -0600 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022962.23782.7125868146646832416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> to my knowledge "Barbara Allen" is generally considered an old folk song, which is to say that it has no author and the songwriter is either "composite" or anonymous. it is generally anthologized in books of poetry as a song from Renaissance times in England, if I am not mistaken. The song has been a long time favorite of Bob Dylan in live performance. From kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com Tue Feb 20 09:31:29 1996 From: kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com (kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:31:29 +0500 Subject: numerical value of devanagari Message-ID: <161227022958.23782.15706159791559966020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>>> "Anand" == Anand Venkt Raman writes: Anand> I have recently written a paper which discusses numerical Anand> representations, especially the katapayadi formula to some Anand> extent. I would be glad to send you a copy if you like. I'd appreciate it if you can send me a copy too. Thanks, Krishna Padmasola From athr at loc.gov Tue Feb 20 19:49:42 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:49:42 -0500 Subject: Schiffman's address Message-ID: <161227022960.23782.15840981912362375170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hal Schiffman's current email address is: haroldfs at ccat.sas.upenn.edu From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Tue Feb 20 20:11:50 1996 From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Peter Gaeffke) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 15:11:50 -0500 Subject: Dr. Harold Schiffman's address??? Message-ID: <161227022963.23782.12144711472219487371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harold Schiffman teaches at the University of Pennsylvania since Fall 1995. His address is: 825 Williams Hall/ 6305 Department of South Aaia Regional Studies University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19174 From gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de Tue Feb 20 20:54:45 1996 From: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (gor05) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 21:54:45 +0100 Subject: "ADDRESS OF D.N. BHAT Message-ID: <161227022965.23782.7884204244325826786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello INDOLOGY members! Does anyone per chance know how I could reach a certain Darbhe Narayan Bhat? I believe he is/was in Mysore. I've checked the INDOLOGY members, VYAKARAN, and South Asian Gopher - to no avail. Any help will be appreciated! John, gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de From gat4 at columbia.edu Wed Feb 21 06:27:46 1996 From: gat4 at columbia.edu (Gary Alan Tubb) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 01:27:46 -0500 Subject: trivial pursuit Message-ID: <161227022973.23782.10823510542734688741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the history of "Barbara Allen" see _The English and Scottish Popular Ballads_, edited by Francis James Child in five volumes (1882-1898; reprinted by Dover) [with notes by a Sanskritist, Charles Rockwell Lanman], Vol. 2 pp. 276ff. Of all the Scottish ballads this is the one most widely attested in America. From sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de Wed Feb 21 07:51:49 1996 From: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 08:51:49 +0100 Subject: [Query] Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227022975.23782.11894126344658282685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings! I have a couple of questions on the evolution of language(s) in todays India. a) Was Sanskrit spoken by the common folk also in olden days? I mean other than the priests and the elite (?) in the society? b) If not, what did the common folk speak? Could you pl. recommend me some monographs/publications on this subject! Herzlichen Dank! mit freundlichen Gruessen, Sreenivas >?From Peter at pwyz.rhein.de 21 1996 Feb +0100 09:05:00 Date: 21 Feb 1996 09:05:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Sari in skt litterature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello mmdesh, In article you wrote about "Re: Sari in skt litterature": >The modern word 'sari' is linguistically linked to the relatively >late Sanskrit words 'sh(palatal s)aaTikaa' and 'shaaTii'. Relatives of >this word appear in Marathi word 'chaaTii'. These words are generally >used for a wrap-around cloth used by ascetics. > Madhav Deshpande Only for clarification, what means "late" in this context? I have found the lemma "zaaTii-paTTika" in the Paniniya-Ganapatha (gana: gavaazvaprabhRtiini to P. 2.4.11) in Pathak/Chitrao: Word index to Panini- Sutra-Patha; I have Boehtlingk's edition not here. Other composita there are "zaaTii-paTiira" and "zaatii-pracchada". Katyayana knows a word "zaaTaka" in a Varttika zu P. 1.1.36. \bye Peter Wyzlic -- "Glauben Sie mir, Frau Gandhi, ich war vier Jahre Landwirtschaftsminister, es gibt keine heiligen Kuehe!" (Heinrich Luebke) From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Feb 21 14:39:15 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 09:39:15 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227022983.23782.7391072385252719669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter, A good question! After a certain soul-searching about what I must have meant by the word "relatively late Sanskrit", I believe I used it to mean "post-Vedic". Lately I have been spending more time reading Vedic, and everything that came after Vedic seems rather late. Apart from the humor, you have probably dug up the earliest occurrences of this word. Congratualations! Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Hello mmdesh, > > In article > you wrote about "Re: Sari in skt litterature": > > >The modern word 'sari' is linguistically linked to the relatively > >late Sanskrit words 'sh(palatal s)aaTikaa' and 'shaaTii'. Relatives of > >this word appear in Marathi word 'chaaTii'. These words are generally > >used for a wrap-around cloth used by ascetics. > > Madhav Deshpande > > Only for clarification, what means "late" in this context? I have found > the lemma "zaaTii-paTTika" in the Paniniya-Ganapatha (gana: > gavaazvaprabhRtiini to P. 2.4.11) in Pathak/Chitrao: Word index to Panini- > Sutra-Patha; I have Boehtlingk's edition not here. Other composita there > are "zaaTii-paTiira" and "zaatii-pracchada". > > Katyayana knows a word "zaaTaka" in a Varttika zu P. 1.1.36. > > \bye > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > "Glauben Sie mir, Frau Gandhi, ich war vier > Jahre Landwirtschaftsminister, es gibt keine > heiligen Kuehe!" (Heinrich Luebke) > > From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed Feb 21 18:45:53 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 10:45:53 -0800 Subject: [Query] Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227022993.23782.1857644261383764459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have discussed this subject, or at least some issues related to it, in an article entitled "On drawing socio-linguistic distinctions in Old Indo-Aryan: The Question of K.satriya Sanskrit and related problems," in the just-published book The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, ed. George Erdosy (Berlin/NY: de Gruyteer, 1995), 293-306. RS On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Sreenivas Paruchuri wrote: > Greetings! > > I have a couple of questions on the evolution of language(s) in todays India. > > a) Was Sanskrit spoken by the common folk also in olden days? I mean other > than the priests and the elite (?) in the society? > > b) If not, what did the common folk speak? > > Could you pl. recommend me some monographs/publications on this subject! > > Herzlichen Dank! > > mit freundlichen Gruessen, > Sreenivas > > From garzilli at shore.net Wed Feb 21 15:53:47 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 10:53:47 -0500 Subject: JSAWS Vol. 2, No. 2 - January 1996 - ISSN 1085-7478 Message-ID: <161227022986.23782.17141536389035124514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The *JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES* VOL. 2, NO. 1 (JANUARY 26, 1996) -- ISSN 1085-7478 has just been published on our WWW pages: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ CONTENTS: - Note from the Editor - How to submit a contribution? - Copyright Notice - News - The Kyoto-Harvard Transcription - Paper: *StrIdhana: To Have and To Have Not*, by Enrica Garzilli If you want to subscribe to the JSAWS mail to: jsaws at shore.net with the subject and/or the body: subscribe Enjoy the reading! Enrica Garzilli Harvard Law School Editor-in-Chief From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 22:09:01 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 11:09:01 +1300 Subject: numerical value of devanagari Message-ID: <161227022969.23782.8018133776804240417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can you send me your mailing address please. Otherwise, gzipped uuencoded postscript would be most convenient. - & From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Feb 21 17:18:11 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 12:18:11 -0500 Subject: Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227022988.23782.14140424619602829938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An interesting further dimension of "spoken" Sanskrit may be extracted from all those ritual performative texts in which women, and members of classes other than Brahmans, are expected to say something, not just recite, in Sanskrit. A number of such "women's Sanskrit utterances" may be found Stephany Jamison's fascinating book "Sacrificer's Wife / Sacrificed Wife". Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 21 Feb 1996 JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl wrote: > Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? > > The extent to which Sanskrit was spoken beyond the limited circle of a small > religious and cultural elite has since long been discussed by Sanskrit > scholars. An early discussion of this problem is found in E.J. Rapson's "In > what degree was Sanskrit a spoken language?" which appeared in the 1904 issue > of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland (pp. 435-456). It is > difficult to disentangle this question from more general issues like: what is a > language, what is a dialect; when is a language a "living" language; how > homogeneous or heterogeneous is the linguistic usage which goes under some > generally accepted labels like "English", "French" etc.). Modern > sociolinguistic research has revealed some of the complexities involved in > these questions of which Rapson had (and, in his time, could be expected to > have) little or no awareness. > > The status of Sanskrit in society (how it was used and by whom and why; also > its relation to other languages/dialects, Prakrit, Dravidian, etc.) was one of > the topics of a seminar hosted by the International Institute for Asian Studies > (November 1994) on "The Ideology and Status of Sanskrit". A preliminary report > of this seminar can be found through the IIAS-homepage on Internet > (http://iias.leidenuniv.nl), under IIAS Newsletter 4 (Spring 1995 issue), "IIAS > News". At present I am editing a volume entitled "Ideology and Status of > Sanskrit: Contributions to the history of the Sanskrit Language", based on > selected articles presented at the seminar and some other contributions (to be > published in the course of this year by E.J. Brill, Leiden). > > Some important, by now "classical" contributions on this topic can be found in: > > Deshpande, Madhav M. > 1979 Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India. An historical reconstruction. Ann > Arbor: Karoma Publishers. > 1993 Sanskrit & Prakrit: Sociolinguistic Issues. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. > Hock, Hans Henrich; Pandharipande, Rajeshwari. > 1976 "The sociolinguistic position of Sanskrit in pre-Muslim South Asia" > Studies in Language Learning 1:2.105-138. (Special issue on Dimensions of > Bilingualism: Theory and Case Studies), ed. by Braj B. Kachru, Urbana. > 1978 "Sanskrit in the pre-Islamic context of South Asia." (condensed version > of the preceding in:) Kachru, Bra B.; Sridhar, S.N. (eds.) Aspects of > Sociolinguistics in South Asia ( = International Journal of the Sociology of > Language 16), pp. 11-25. > > Another work with important contributions on this topic is: > Caillat, Collette (ed.) > 1989 Dialectes dans les Litteratures Indo-Aryennes. Paris: College de > France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne. > > Cardona, 1976, Paa.nini, A survey of Research, pp. 238-239, reviews the > discussion since the end of the last century on whether the language described > by Paa.nini was more than just "grammarian's Sanskrit". > Diametrically opposed positons regarding the use of Sanskrit in the period from > Paa.nini to Patanjali have been adopted by S.D. Laddu, Evolution of the > Sanskrit Language from Paa.nini to Patanjali, Poona: Centre of Advanced Study > in Sanskrit, 1974 and S.D. Joshi and J.A.F. Roodbergen, Vyaakara.na- > Mahaabha.sya, Paspashaahnika, Poona: Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, > 1986:135: "one may wonder what was the linguistic basis of Sanskrit in > Paa.nini's days, and whether Sanskrit has ever been more than a learned > language and a language to be learntin paa.thashaalaas by an elite." > > > Jan E.M. Houben > Research Fellow IIAS > IN%"JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl" > > ********* > > On 21 February Sreenivas wrote: > > Greetings! > > I have a couple of questions on the evolution of language(s) in todays India. > > a) Was Sanskrit spoken by the common folk also in olden days? I mean other > than the priests and the elite (?) in the society? > > b) If not, what did the common folk speak? > > Could you pl. recommend me some monographs/publications on this subject! > > Herzlichen Dank! > > mit freundlichen Gruessen, > Sreenivas > > From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 23:26:33 1996 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 12:26:33 +1300 Subject: numerical value of devanagari Message-ID: <161227022972.23782.10187980689063399708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops sorry. My prev message was not intended for the list. - & From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Feb 21 17:52:54 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 12:52:54 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227022990.23782.13800459246087954847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To add some further references to ShaaTaka, it certainly occurs in Patanjali's Mahaabhaazya: asya suutrasya shaaTakaM vaya (ref???). Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Peter, > A good question! After a certain soul-searching about what I > must have meant by the word "relatively late Sanskrit", I believe I used > it to mean "post-Vedic". Lately I have been spending more time reading > Vedic, and everything that came after Vedic seems rather late. > Apart from the humor, you have probably dug up the earliest > occurrences of this word. Congratualations! > Madhav Deshpande > > On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > > > Hello mmdesh, > > > > In article > > you wrote about "Re: Sari in skt litterature": > > > > >The modern word 'sari' is linguistically linked to the relatively > > >late Sanskrit words 'sh(palatal s)aaTikaa' and 'shaaTii'. Relatives of > > >this word appear in Marathi word 'chaaTii'. These words are generally > > >used for a wrap-around cloth used by ascetics. > > > Madhav Deshpande > > > > Only for clarification, what means "late" in this context? I have found > > the lemma "zaaTii-paTTika" in the Paniniya-Ganapatha (gana: > > gavaazvaprabhRtiini to P. 2.4.11) in Pathak/Chitrao: Word index to Panini- > > Sutra-Patha; I have Boehtlingk's edition not here. Other composita there > > are "zaaTii-paTiira" and "zaatii-pracchada". > > > > Katyayana knows a word "zaaTaka" in a Varttika zu P. 1.1.36. > > > > \bye > > Peter Wyzlic > > > > -- > > "Glauben Sie mir, Frau Gandhi, ich war vier > > Jahre Landwirtschaftsminister, es gibt keine > > heiligen Kuehe!" (Heinrich Luebke) > > > > > > From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Feb 21 12:15:55 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 13:15:55 +0100 Subject: FW: Urdu WP Message-ID: <161227022977.23782.3261531246976646819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, I forward the following information about Urdu word processors, from Adil Khan . Ruth Schmidt ============ > >ETC computers are currently working on a professional Nastaliq/Roman DTP >package for Windows 95/Windows 3.1. > >The programmers are having difficulty though with some aspects of the MS code >which has therefore delayed the launch date of the product. Optimistic >estimates are for mid-summer this year but by the end of 1996 it will almost >certainly be released. > >relevant e-mail address: ashiq at eldjinn.demon.co.uk > > From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Wed Feb 21 13:51:55 1996 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 13:51:55 +0000 Subject: Removing people from Indology Message-ID: <161227022979.23782.5967120481996420756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I gather this has been the source of some discussion recently. I posted the following quite some time ago: ------------------------------------------------------------ As administrator of Indology I get copies of all rejected mail which can't get delivered to you. At present I'm seeing a lot of mail rejected by sites which implement 'quotas' on their systems. This means that the site rejects all mail messages to users whose mailbox size exceeds some locally defined limit. If you are at one of these sites then can you please try to ensure that you leave sufficient space for incoming mail. By talking to your local Computer Centre staff you may even be able to have this limit increased. The consequences of doing nothing are that *any* mail to you (not just from Indology) will not be delivered. In addition you will help reduce the cost of managing the Indology list. This morning I have had to remove two Indology subscribers who have been over quota for a considerable time. I don't like having to do this, but it is the only effective way to constrain this problem. Thank you for reading this message. Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk) ------------------------------------------------------------ The above message is even truer now! Indology is now busier than ever and has more subscribers than ever. In addition, I now get many failures for lots of other reasons. The number of failures I get is enormous, typically around 50/day! I can only cope with running the list if this number is kept manageable. Thus, I have with regret, to often delete people whose accounts have rejected many messages across several days. This is not something I want to do. It is borne largely out of necessity. It can be avoided in some instances by making sure that you do have the capacity to handle Indology mailing. Chris Wooff (owner Indology list) From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Wed Feb 21 20:30:54 1996 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 14:30:54 -0600 Subject: Peoples and Languages Message-ID: <161227022995.23782.16710021680499280664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues: Recently, Dr. Tariq Rahman, a scholar from Pakistan has given a beautiful article to ASNIC. The article is too long to post here. I do not like to fill up your mailbox with one article. The title of the article is: "PEOPLES and LANGUAGES in PRE-ISLAMIC INDUS VALLEY" and some of the questions he discusses are: What was the language of the Indus Valley, present-day Pakistan, in the pre-Islamic period? Did this region have one language or many? Did it have one language family or many? In which script, or scripts, were they written? These questions cannot be answered by the linguist alone. To answer them one needs the help of the archaeologist, the historian and the anthropologist. Let us then begin with the evidence about the Indus Valley civilization brought to light by the archaeologists first. You can view this article at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html Thanks. kamal _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 21 15:07:18 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 15:07:18 +0000 Subject: Digital cameras and Sanskrit MSS Message-ID: <161227022984.23782.12402600383351003925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the current issue of the British Airways inflight magazine, there are advertisements and and article about a new type of film and associated camera. The new film is called "APS" ("Advanced Photographic System", I think), and promises to be easier to use, and to provide several technical advantages over normal 35mm film. You will need to buy a special camera to use the new film. One feature that has relevance to indologists is that the APS system permits you to choose from three formats of photograph: * normal (like 35mm), * HDTV (the dimensions of future TV screens) * Panorama (very wide) The latter format is for taking panoramic views of groups of people at weddings, or mountain views, etc. If the new APS cameras allow close focus in combination with panorama format, I think that we may at last have a better tool for photographing palm-leaf and other wide-format Indian manuscripts. The new APS cameras seem to be aimed initially at the "snappy" pocket-camera end of the market. However, the Nikon APS cameras seem to have auto-focus and exposure control, and of course Nikon lenses have a tremendous reputation. The requirements for good working images of MSS are not high by modern photographic standards, so perhaps these new APS cameras, even if aimed at holidaymakers, will be an important development for us indologists. Have any of our members tried one yet? Dominik From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Wed Feb 21 14:12:50 1996 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 15:12:50 +0100 Subject: Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227022981.23782.13247763444637948529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? The extent to which Sanskrit was spoken beyond the limited circle of a small religious and cultural elite has since long been discussed by Sanskrit scholars. An early discussion of this problem is found in E.J. Rapson's "In what degree was Sanskrit a spoken language?" which appeared in the 1904 issue of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland (pp. 435-456). It is difficult to disentangle this question from more general issues like: what is a language, what is a dialect; when is a language a "living" language; how homogeneous or heterogeneous is the linguistic usage which goes under some generally accepted labels like "English", "French" etc.). Modern sociolinguistic research has revealed some of the complexities involved in these questions of which Rapson had (and, in his time, could be expected to have) little or no awareness. The status of Sanskrit in society (how it was used and by whom and why; also its relation to other languages/dialects, Prakrit, Dravidian, etc.) was one of the topics of a seminar hosted by the International Institute for Asian Studies (November 1994) on "The Ideology and Status of Sanskrit". A preliminary report of this seminar can be found through the IIAS-homepage on Internet (http://iias.leidenuniv.nl), under IIAS Newsletter 4 (Spring 1995 issue), "IIAS News". At present I am editing a volume entitled "Ideology and Status of Sanskrit: Contributions to the history of the Sanskrit Language", based on selected articles presented at the seminar and some other contributions (to be published in the course of this year by E.J. Brill, Leiden). Some important, by now "classical" contributions on this topic can be found in: Deshpande, Madhav M. 1979 Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India. An historical reconstruction. Ann Arbor: Karoma Publishers. 1993 Sanskrit & Prakrit: Sociolinguistic Issues. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Hock, Hans Henrich; Pandharipande, Rajeshwari. 1976 "The sociolinguistic position of Sanskrit in pre-Muslim South Asia" Studies in Language Learning 1:2.105-138. (Special issue on Dimensions of Bilingualism: Theory and Case Studies), ed. by Braj B. Kachru, Urbana. 1978 "Sanskrit in the pre-Islamic context of South Asia." (condensed version of the preceding in:) Kachru, Bra B.; Sridhar, S.N. (eds.) Aspects of Sociolinguistics in South Asia ( = International Journal of the Sociology of Language 16), pp. 11-25. Another work with important contributions on this topic is: Caillat, Collette (ed.) 1989 Dialectes dans les Litteratures Indo-Aryennes. Paris: College de France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne. Cardona, 1976, Paa.nini, A survey of Research, pp. 238-239, reviews the discussion since the end of the last century on whether the language described by Paa.nini was more than just "grammarian's Sanskrit". Diametrically opposed positons regarding the use of Sanskrit in the period from Paa.nini to Patanjali have been adopted by S.D. Laddu, Evolution of the Sanskrit Language from Paa.nini to Patanjali, Poona: Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, 1974 and S.D. Joshi and J.A.F. Roodbergen, Vyaakara.na- Mahaabha.sya, Paspashaahnika, Poona: Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, 1986:135: "one may wonder what was the linguistic basis of Sanskrit in Paa.nini's days, and whether Sanskrit has ever been more than a learned language and a language to be learntin paa.thashaalaas by an elite." Jan E.M. Houben Research Fellow IIAS IN%"JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl" ********* On 21 February Sreenivas wrote: Greetings! I have a couple of questions on the evolution of language(s) in todays India. a) Was Sanskrit spoken by the common folk also in olden days? I mean other than the priests and the elite (?) in the society? b) If not, what did the common folk speak? Could you pl. recommend me some monographs/publications on this subject! Herzlichen Dank! mit freundlichen Gruessen, Sreenivas From tilak at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 22 01:43:11 1996 From: tilak at alcor.concordia.ca (SHRINIVAS TILAK) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 20:43:11 -0500 Subject: jnaneshvar conference Message-ID: <161227022997.23782.9438038106527594303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was privileged to visit the site of the mahasamadhi of Sant Jnaneshvar while attending the annual Marathi Sahitya Sammelan at Alandi on February 3, 1996. I would agree, to some extent, with the observations of Robin Kornman and Frederick Smith that Alandi is still beautiful and serene despite the ever increasing number of hotels, restaurants, and commercial establishments. But I am more inclined to agree with John Grime's feeling that Alandi is a powerful Shakti Peeth. Standing before the samadhi of Sant Jnaneshvar is an incredibly overwhelming experience. It almost evokes in you the feeling of sacred that Otto has described so eloquently. Shrinivas Tilak From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Feb 22 10:49:42 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 10:49:42 +0000 Subject: Shorter messages (was: Peoples and Languages) Message-ID: <161227022998.23782.17267736214220002734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kamal Adhikary said: > > > Dear colleagues: > Recently, Dr. Tariq Rahman, a scholar from Pakistan has given a > beautiful article to ASNIC. The article is too long to post here. I do > not like to fill up your mailbox with one article. [...] I should like to thank Mr Adhikary publicly for his courtesy. The above approach is greatly needed, now that INDOLOGY is so large and busy. If you have a long posting (more than a couple of screenfuls), please feel free to post an announcement about it to INDOLOGY, but keep the long message off the daily list. Make it available via some other network method, like local public ftp. If you have absolutely no alternative, contact me and I'll see if I can put it on the INDOLOGY web page. Please read and meditate on the recent posting by Chris Wooff about overflowing mailboxes and bounced subscriptions. He raises vital matters about network usage and the future viability of INDOLOGY. Thanks Dominik Wujastyk >?From Peter at pwyz.rhein.de 23 1996 Feb +0100 00:02:00 Date: 23 Feb 1996 00:02:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Sari in skt litterature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article you wrote about "Re: Sari in skt litterature": >To add some further references to ShaaTaka, it certainly occurs >in Patanjali's Mahaabhaazya: asya suutrasya shaaTakaM vaya (ref???). To be found in Mahabhashya on P. 1.1.45. BTW there are various occurrences of "zaaTii" or "zaaTaka" in Patanjali's work. The passage you are alluding to makes it clear that "zaaTaka" (masculine here) used to denote a manufactured piece of cloth and not raw material. Patanjali quotes in his remark to Varttika 16 on "zivasuutra" 1 an example where "zaaTaka" is connected with Mathura: "teneva zaaTakaan aacchaadayamaano ye mathuraayaam" (ed. Kielhorn/Abhyankar, Vol. 1, p. 19). More references in Pathak/Chitrao: _Word-index to Patanjali's Vyakarana-Mahabhasya_, p. 1020, sub vocibus. Compare also Albrecht Weber, in: _Indische Studien_, Vol. 13, 1873, p. 467. The Dhammapada knows brahmanical ascetics who wear "ajinasaaTii" (Dhammapada v. 394) made from the leather of a deer (?). Other derivatives like "saaTa", "saaTikaa" or "saaTiya" are noted elsewhere in the Pali canon (source PED). A short peep into the _PaaiasaddamahaNNavo_ indicates that the Jaina canon yields references for "saaDa" and "saaDiaa", too. It seems that this sort of cloth (supposing "zaaTii", "zaaTaka" etc. denote the same) became popular in "early" postvedic times (the _Vaidikapadaanukramakoza_ quotes only two references in "late" UpaniSads as, e.g., SaMnyaasa-UpaniSad). \bye Peter Wyzlic From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Fri Feb 23 13:38:28 1996 From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Peter Gaeffke) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 08:38:28 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227023004.23782.12901593305994063507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anybody knowledge of a custom practiced among women of Hindu (?) or Muslim(?) warriors to stand behind the fighter in battle and let the end of the sari (ancal) fly over him. In such a situation the woman holds in her left hand a tray (arati). This particular "rite" is seen as a promise to die with the hero if he is killed in battle. Descriptions of this rite appear in medieval texts from the Dekkhan. Peter Gaeffke From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Fri Feb 23 11:27:06 1996 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 13:27:06 +0200 Subject: Manuscripts stolen from the Punjab University Library Message-ID: <161227023001.23782.15437979274082122308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been forwarded the following message, where I have just corrected the titles of some of the Sanskrit mss. AP >From: IN%"MuhammadIsa.Waley at london.british-library.uk" 21-FEB-1996 >18:55:12.71 >Subj: STOLEN MANUSCRIPTS: PUNJAB UNIVERSITY LIBRARY > > > The British Library has just received a letter from Mr > Jamil Ahmad Shah, Chief Librarian, Punjab University > Library, Quaid-e-Azam Campus, Lahore 54590, Pakistan; > telephone number 5868853. > > Most unfortunately several precious manuscripts - five > in Arabic, one in Persian, and six in Sanskrit - were > stolen in early November 1995. All six of the Islamic > manuscripts are from the Sherani collection, the > importance of which will be known to many colleagues. > See Muhammad Bashir Husayn, Fihrist-i makhtutat-i > Sherani (in Urdu). > > Mr Shah has requested our cooperation and asks that > colleagues not purchase these documents but instead > keep them in their own custody and inform him of the > identity of the person(s) responsible. > > Although one is urged to keep LIS-Middle-East messages > concise, it seems appropriate this time to include full > details of the items, not forgetting those in Sanskrit > for the benefit of our members' Indologist colleagues. > > ARABIC > 1. Qur'an. Kufic script, 312 folios, 27 x 21 cm., ca. > 5th century Hijri. Sherani 6374. > 2. Qur'an. Bihari script, 449 folios, 33 x 35 cm., no > date mentioned. Sherani 1706. > 3. Qur'an. Script not specified,illuminated opening, > 312 folios, 1103 Hijri. Sherani 1723. > 4. Qur'an. Script not specified, illuminated opening, > 307 folios, 18 x 5 x 11 cm., no date mentioned. > Sherani 1729. > 5. "Imam Malik" [or rather 'Abd al-Rahman al-'Utaqi], > al-'Itq al-thani min al-Mudawwana. Vellum, other > details not given, 412 Hijri. Sherani 1881. > > PERSIAN > 1. Jami, Yusuf va Zulaykha, with miniature paintings, > [Court Moghul?], Lahore 998, other details not given. > Sherani 1559. > > SANSKRIT > 1. Nyayavimsati vyakhya. Acc. no. 6473. > 2. "Dhurta Sawami", Apastanba [or Apastamba?] sranta > sutrabhasya. Acc. no. 6475. Read: DhUrtasvAmin, Apastamba-zrautasUtra-bhASya > 3. "Kaardi Sawami", Apastamba sutrabhasya. Acc. no. > 6476. Read: KapardisvAmin, Apastamba-sUtra-bhASya > 4. "Ramagicit", Apastamba srauta sutrabhasya. Acc. no. > 6477. > 5. "Ramagicit", Apastamba srauta sutrabhasya. Acc. no. > 6478. > 6. Madhavacarya, Taittiriya samkitabhasya. Acc. no. > 6494. > Read: MAdhavAcArya, TaittirIya-saMhitA-bhASya > Thank you for your attention. It would be good to see > the guilty person(s) brought to book, and the books > brought back to Lahore. > > Muhammad Isa Waley > OIOC, British Library, London UK > MuhammadIsa.Waley at bl.uk > > > > Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Feb 23 18:44:38 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 13:44:38 -0500 Subject: Sari in skt litterature Message-ID: <161227023008.23782.6472678803527610737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The story of how Kaikeyi got her two boons from Dasharatha at least places her in the battlefield beside him, helping him in the battle. Madhav On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Peter Gaeffke wrote: > Has anybody knowledge of a custom practiced among women of Hindu (?) or > Muslim(?) warriors to stand behind the fighter in battle and let the end > of the sari (ancal) fly over him. In such a situation the woman holds > in her left hand a tray (arati). This particular "rite" is seen as a promise to > die with the hero if he is killed in battle. Descriptions of this rite > appear in medieval texts from the Dekkhan. > Peter Gaeffke > > From Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at Fri Feb 23 14:02:23 1996 From: Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at (Ernst.Prets at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 15:02:23 +0100 Subject: pravaada-examples Message-ID: <161227023006.23782.16798418666180037862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody by chance know examples of a pravaada in the meaning of the following definitions found in the Yogaacaara-tradition: pravaada.h katama.h. yo lokaashraviko vaada.h. (Shrutamayiibhuumi) ?What is pravaada (?popular belief)? It is a statement which is well known in the world /among people.? rmad khyer ba smra ba ni ?jig rten na grags pa?o. (Abhidharmasamuccaya-tib.) (*pravaado loke prasiddha.h) ?pravaada is well known in the world /among people.? pravaado lokaanushruto vaada.h, lokaj~naanapravaadata.h. (Sanskrit-reconstruction of the editor of AS) prakaarasho loke vaada.h pravaada.h. (ASBh) Ernst Prets Institut f?r Kultur- und Geistesgeschichte Asiens ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften Postgasse 7/4/3 A-1010 Wien From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI Fri Feb 23 13:20:29 1996 From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 15:20:29 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit manuscripts stolen from Punjab University Library Message-ID: <161227023003.23782.4011617375800384782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dr Parpola > Thank you for the correct versions of authors and > titles. I don't know any Sanskrit but some looked wrong > to me, hence the quotation marks. I should have > mentioned that the Sanskrit MSS. are all on palm > leaves. > Muhammad Isa Waley Dear Dr Waley, I have forwarded your message to the Indology-list, where it will catch the attention of many colleagues. Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki From thompson at handel.jlc.net Sun Feb 25 01:07:07 1996 From: thompson at handel.jlc.net (thompson at handel.jlc.net) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 20:07:07 -0500 Subject: vastu shaastra Message-ID: <161227023009.23782.10151541528136602897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend just returned from India has asked me for reliable references to vast shaastra, about which I know nothing. Can anyone offer such? Thank you, George Thompson From thion at msh-paris.fr Sat Feb 24 22:51:03 1996 From: thion at msh-paris.fr (thion at msh-paris.fr) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 08:51:03 +1000 Subject: [Query] Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227023011.23782.3987214444921520177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A (At) 7:23 22/02/1996, Richard Salomon ecrivait (wrote): >I have discussed this subject, or at least some issues related to it, in an >article entitled "On >drawing socio-linguistic distinctions in Old Indo-Aryan: The Question of >K.satriya Sanskrit and related problems," in the just-published book The >Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and >Ethnicity, ed. George Erdosy (Berlin/NY: de Gruyteer, 1995), 293-306. Very interesting indeed, especially when your bookseller reports the book costs 200 (two hundred) dollars. How is it possible? Are we cows to be milked? By whom? st From Bridgman at aol.com Sun Feb 25 18:52:31 1996 From: Bridgman at aol.com (Bridgman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 13:52:31 -0500 Subject: jnaneshvar conference Message-ID: <161227023013.23782.10782777040799164288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 96-02-21 20:49:09 EST, you write: >But I am more inclined to agree with John Grime's feeling that >Alandi is a powerful Shakti Peeth. Standing before the samadhi of Sant >Jnaneshvar is an incredibly overwhelming experience. Amen to that! I had a similar experience. Jnanesvar holds a very special place in my heart. Without knowing it I woound up in Tryambekeshwar and found myself entering Nivruttinaths Samadhi, another Shakti Peeth as far as I am concerned . Almost 12 years later I still can feel the rushes of Shakti course through my body. Well I just wanted to thank you for posting that message about Jnanadev, and also to ask if you heard anything about the festivities that are happening this year on the occasion of his 700th anniversary of his MahaSamadhi? Thanks and God bless you Joel bridgman at aol.com From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 25 20:44:14 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 15:44:14 -0500 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023015.23782.4725126706814658143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SAAVADHAANA PATTRA (#2) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems almost too apposite to be true, but this time it is *true* indeed. Recently I drew attention to Columbia`s Hinduja Institute announcement of their ``Whose Veda`` symposium and their gradual shift from the original intent of studying ``Veda and Vedanta`` to very general, mostly religious issues of India. I could not have observed and predicted it more accurately. One or two weeks ago we received the last letter of Columbia U./Hinduja Inst. lecture series ``On the Veda and its interpretation``. The first sentence reads: ``Dr. [Laurie] Patton opened the evening with a brief discussion of the seminar`s name -- the members present [Banos, Bryant, Bulliet, Conrad, Dhungel, Hartzell, Magier, Mann, McDermott, McGee, Patton, Tubb, Vaze] voted to change the seminar name to The University Seminar on Indology.`` Q.E.D. Have they already run out of Vedic scholars in North America? (cf. below) The trend seems to be even in violation of their own charter for the press announcement of Columbia`s Office of Public Information, May 20, 1994, reads: `` Special study will be devoted to the fundamental teachings of the Veda,the earliest religious texts in an Indo-European language, and the later Vedanta, which offers a series of philosophical reflections on the self, society and the universe.`` Incidentally, the speakers of the old seminar have included, according to the Columbia Gopher (10/93- 9/95): W. Halbfass, W. Doniger, K. Zysk, D. Pingree, S. Jamison, F. Clooney, A. Aklujkar, B. Smith, V. Narayanan, N. Lidova, M. Deshpande, L. Patton, K.Plofker, V. Sharma, and the topics haved ranged from Doniger`s by now famous(?) Veda translations to Sharma`s <18th cent.> masonry instruments... To repeat: what about the Vedas themselves?? TO BE VERY CLEAR: I refused their offer last fall to ``give the keynote speech`` in the seminar as I do not agree with their *new* goals, their policies, and their methods. AND: I do not sell my birthright for a lentil`s dish of a score of $$$... M. Witzel Wales Prof. of Skt., Harvard University (witzel at husc3.harvard.edu) From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Feb 26 03:42:41 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 22:42:41 -0500 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023016.23782.8660335021004505791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not really wish to become involved in a public discussion about what Prof. Witzel in Cambridge MA thinks his colleagues in New York ought to be doing. I really see no point in the discussion at all. But since Prof. Witzel has used the INDOLOGY forum to mount a strong attack on certain other members, regarding an issue which I happen to know something about, I shall say a few words (and try to stick to the "two-screen" rule!). I have been personally involved in extensive negotiations with the Hinduja family concerning a similar endowment which has been created in Britain (at the real Cambridge :-). I only wish to say this: during many, many hours of detailed discussion, and in many meetings since, the Hinduja family has made it abundantly clear that their aims in providing these endowments are to explore the Hindu religious and cultural tradition in the broadest sense. At first they used the word "Veda" to characterise this tradition. This is the sense of the word that is commonly used outside academic circles, and especially in religious circles, from which they had presumably drawn the usage. When all we academic negotiators began talking about the samhitas and brahmanas, etc., and the wonderful opportunities for study that exist in "vedic" literature in this sense, it eventually became clear that this was not what the Hinduja family meant. In order not to mislead academics like Prof. Witzel, they have permitted the names of the research centres to be changed from "vedic" to "indic." The Hinduja family have given every sign of being delighted with the activities of both the Columbia and the Cambridge centres. It is their endowment and they therefore have every right to state their preferences about how it is used (within the limits set by the agreements with Universities, of course). The fact that these centres are not pursuing vedic philology in the academic sense is disappointing to vedic philologists, of course. But the centres are committed to fulfilling the aims of their founders, and that is exactly what they are doing. Dominik Wujastyk -- Dominik Wujastyk From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Feb 26 14:07:00 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:07:00 -0600 Subject: Query: Book on East Indies Message-ID: <161227023020.23782.17455174921308689126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Book Title on East Indies? --------------------------- The following question is with me for a long time. Hope some learned member of the group can answer this query. I read from a book by K. Zvelebil that some in Indonesia use "cEntanAr's tiruppallANTu" (Tamil) during some festivals. The book he cites is G. K. Vanborough, The peoples in the East Indies. The author and title may not be very exact, though very close. Can anybody give the exact author, title, press and year please? N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From DESIKACHARYK at wl.aecl.ca Mon Feb 26 13:55:44 1996 From: DESIKACHARYK at wl.aecl.ca (DESIKACHARYK at wl.aecl.ca) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:55:44 -0500 Subject: Commentary on pArijAtahraNa champu of sEshakrishnakavi Message-ID: <161227023027.23782.2838180333287037642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am looking for an edition of the pArijAtahraNa champu by sEshakrishna kavi with a good commentary either in Sanskrit or in English. I have an edition published by Chaukhamba publications of vAraNAsi, with a minimal commentary in Sanskrit (just the anvayakramam), but I am looking for an edition with a more extensive commentary. Does such a thing exist? I will be grateful for any pointers towards this - by the way sEshakrishna kavi lived in vAraNAsi in the 16th century, and was patronized by the son of Todarmall, who was the finance minster of Akbar. regards, K.Desikachary. From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 26 14:41:51 1996 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 09:41:51 -0500 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023022.23782.1615895859012217974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote on 2/25/96: > I do not really wish to become involved in a public discussion about what Prof. Witzel in Cambridge MA thinks his colleagues in New York ought to be doing. I really see no point in the discussion at all. < Hmm, interesting. And I thought I was brief and clear. (I left out, for example, all of my background information about many not exactly ``nice`` happenings). Some of us are philologists on this list, isn`t it: not what *I think*, but what the Columbia press release *said* that the colleagues belonging to the Columbia Hinduja Center (NB: in the Religion Department) or attached to it should be doing primarily... > But since Prof. Witzel has used the INDOLOGY forum to mount a strong attack on certain other members, regarding an issue which I happen to know something about, I shall say a few words [...].< Really, a strong attack on other members? I merely compared two sets of publicly available information... Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi? (not that I consider myself bovine, though!) -- I reminded you last time that Dr Wujastyk himself used to exhort his compatriots and the members of the list about undesirable developments in GB; so I do, finally, about North America now. It should be clear that Dr Wujastyk speaks about his knowledge of things in Great Britain, not the US. However, I was speaking, from Cambridge (in HM`s Mass. Bay Colony) about the Columbia Center (in Manhattan, Nieuw Amsterdam), not the one in the ``real Cambridge`` (United Kingdom). >I have been personally involved in extensive negotiations with the Hinduja family concerning a similar endowment [...] (at the real Cambridge :-). [...] the Hinduja family has made it abundantly clear [...] to explore the Hindu religious and cultural tradition in the broadest sense. < I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this statement. However, I was speaking about the Columbia Center, and while the name of the center may be ``Indic Research`` Ctr., their goals are clearly described in the press anouncement quoted last time; see the Columbia gopher: at gopher.columbia.cc.clioplus. This announcement does NOT agree with what Dr. Wujastyk says about the center at Cambridge, UK. > At first they used the word "Veda" to characterise this tradition. This is the sense of the word that is commonly used outside academic circles, and especially in religious circles, from which they had presumably drawn the usage. < Indologists know, I am sure, what ``Bed /Veedam`` mean in (north/south) India. I do not speculate on what the Hinduja family may or may not have thought, I quote. > When all we academic negotiators began talking about the samhitas [....] it eventually became clear that this was not what the Hinduja family meant. < Again, I wasn`t there,in Britain, and I talk about the US center, and I quote.. See above!! > In order not to mislead academics like Prof. Witzel, they have permitted the names of the research centres to be changed from "vedic" to "indic." < Fine, maybe, but at the same time the statement says: `` Special study will be devoted to the fundamental teachings of the Veda,[...], and the later Vedanta [...].`` > The Hinduja family have given every sign of being delighted with the activities of both the Columbia and the Cambridge centres. It is their endowment and they therefore have every right to state their preferences about how it is used (within the limits set by the agreements with Universities, of course). < Certainly, and I am not privy to their thoughts. However, published announcement/agreement is agreement is agreement. See above... > The fact that these centres are not pursuing vedic philology in the academic sense is disappointing to vedic philologists, of course. < Not to me, personally; due to my more than 5 years continuous stay in Nepal and India I have unpublished/unstudied materials for three life times to work on and I do not need any $$$ to do so. But US Indology students and younger colleagues may regret that the funds --- the first in the US this century in this particular field--- have been diverted to general religious studies, quite another field, with different aims/approaches/methods and one which is well represented in the US at every other college. > But the centres are committed to fulfilling the aims of their founders, and that is exactly what they are doing.< Is the NY one indeed ?? M. Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit Harvard University From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Mon Feb 26 15:25:39 1996 From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Peter Gaeffke) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 10:25:39 -0500 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023024.23782.17906359370440960865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whoever takes money from outside has to live with the stings attached to it It is something to propagate Indian religion outside India which is a honorable matter of free speech and, on the other hand, the scholarly study of Indian traditions This is not just a philological activity but an attempt to get a clearer insight in the intellectual and cultural/religious changes in the course of time. One can not assess the unique contribution of Tulsidas without comparing him to Valmiki's Ramayana. Modern Indian Hinduism is a multifaced phaenomenon which becomes much clearer when it is projected against say 19th century and medieval or classical ,material. The most impressive example of this methods is still Paul Hacker's study of the Prahlade myth and many of his minor writings show the application and results of this approach It remains a question whether scholars, especially in the West, should abandon independent judgment and become involved in the attempt to look at tradition solely from present necessities Then you get "neo"hinduistic interpretations of the past. which can be interesting in themselves but are not valid in their assessment of the past in a more scholarly sense.. Peter Gaeffke From Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch Mon Feb 26 11:02:26 1996 From: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch (Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 11:02:26 +0000 Subject: Thanks for Sari Message-ID: <161227023018.23782.11177765609857895331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all the scholars on the list who made very valuable comments on my query about saris. Actually this query comes originally from the head of the Asian department of the Ethnographical Museum of Geneva. They have a very beautiful collection of rare and old saris they plan to exhibit this summer. So if any member of the list is in Geneva during summer, please visit it. They have a web site on http://www.ville-ge.ch/gve_guid/musgal/ethno/methno.htm. Thanks again. Francois Voegeli Fac. des lettres Section de langues et civilisations orientales Universite de Lausanne BFSH 2 CH-1015 Tel.: (41.21) 692-2721 Fax.: (41.21) 692-3045 E-mail: Francois.Voegeli at orient.unil.ch From girish at mushika.wanet.com Mon Feb 26 20:41:38 1996 From: girish at mushika.wanet.com (girish at mushika.wanet.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 12:41:38 -0800 Subject: Shabara Bhasyam Message-ID: <161227023029.23782.12009166107016739526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone please recommend a reliable English translation of Shabara's commentary on the Mimansa Darshanam, preferably with the original Sanskrit. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Girish Sharma San Diego, CA girish at mushika.wanet.com From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Mon Feb 26 16:39:00 1996 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 17:39:00 +0100 Subject: Thanks for numerical value Message-ID: <161227023026.23782.11189160697274300267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My very warmest thanks to all scholars on the list who made helpfull comments on my query about the numerical value of the devanagari. Sincerely Yours, Annette Wilke, c/o Univ. of Berne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Feb 27 03:13:02 1996 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 19:13:02 -0800 Subject: Getting copies of mss in India Message-ID: <161227023031.23782.13245547452957131903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his two communications on what one should do in India in order to bring good ms copies home Dominik Wujastyk has emphasized the personal, psychological and non-technological considerations. In light of my experience, I would like to support his observations strongly. Treat the locals with respect, show an understanding of their difficulties and you will almost always succeed. As for making the inscribed parts of palm-leaf mss readable, the most common custom, I was told, is not to smear ink or any other colored stuff on them, but simply to take some green leaves from some nearby bush or plant, squeeze them and spread their juice on the leaves. Since the inscribed parts are no longer oily, the green juice settles in them (one wipes the rest of the leaf). In time, it turnss black and makes the inscribed letters legible. For greater legibility and preservation in public libraries, other coloring substances were and are, of course, used. The Adyar Library and Research Centre, Theosophical Society, Madras 600 020, has an excellent track record in producing legible microfilms of palm-leaf mss. I vaguely recall that someone there told me that they use infrared light (thrown from under the ms placed on glass?) for microfilming. An inquiry with the Adyar technicians may prove to be beneficial. -- ashok aklujkar >?From Peter at pwyz.rhein.de 27 1996 Feb +0100 07:13:00 Date: 27 Feb 1996 07:13:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.rhein.de (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Re: Shabara Bhasyam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: indology-l at pwyz.rhein.de Hello girish, On 26 Feb 96 you wrote in your message <199602262041.MAA04581 at sd-dns-1.wanet.net> about "Shabara Bhasyam": >Could someone please recommend a reliable English translation of >Shabara's commentary on the Mimansa Darshanam, preferably with >the original Sanskrit. Thank you. There is only one English translation to my knowledge: that by Ganganatha Jha published in the early thirties in the Gaekwad's Oriental Series. It contains only the translation. Have a look at J.-M. Verpoorten's history of Mimamsa literature (published in the Harrassowitz Series "History of Indian Literature"). Perhaps this helps you. \bye Peter Wyzlic From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 27 13:56:00 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 07:56:00 -0600 Subject: [Query] Was Sanskrit ever spoken by "all"? Message-ID: <161227023033.23782.7326422452853828929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Srini, Sanskrit was spoken in early days by the masses . The internal evidebce is seen in the fact that in many temples in north India there are many inscriptions in Sanskrit. There are not many temples in north India with inscription in other languages like Bengali etc in north India which are at least a thousand years old. Furthur reference to sanskrit being a commonly spoken language exists in many sanskrit and other writings. Recently also it was published in newspapers in India that some common people in assam in India speak sanskrit. These are indications that sanskrit was a spoken language at one time.One reason for its disuse is the loss of political power by hindus to non- hindu people for a long time and the effect of their occupation of the hindu kingdoms. Even now we see that many youngsters cannot speak their native indian language because they are sent to english speaking schools when they are young and the parents speak to them in english so that they can get a job outside india when they grow up. M.Rajagopalan < rajagopalanm at harpo.tnstate.edu> >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 27 96 Feb EST 14:03:00 Date: 27 Feb 96 14:03:00 EST From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: re: UniCode Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I am wondering about using UniCode compliant software for Hindi/Sanskrit/Panjabi. Does anyone have experience of using Gamma's UniType software for these languages and if so what do they think of them. Or do you know of any othe UniCode compliant software for these languages? All comments would be very welcome. Dr Peter G. Friedlander Cataloguer of Hindi and Panjabi Manuscripts Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 183 Euston Road London NW1 2BN England e-mail: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 27 14:42:15 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 08:42:15 -0600 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023036.23782.7498206487599734445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear members , I agree with the title Veda's demise at NY Hinduja ctr . Their activities do not seem to be to understand and appreciate the greatness of vedas . They are making vedas cheap by writing and discussing all kinds of neopolical kind of issues and getting attraction ( Such as whose veda is it ) It is time that money is not wasted in the name of scholarly work but really indulging in cheap and unworthy stuff. M.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 27 14:53:31 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 08:53:31 -0600 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023035.23782.12055631874075763208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear peter gaeffke, vedas and hindu religion should be interpreted by those who practise it to be correct and scholarly in the interpretation . Many" neo hindu' persons who only cram many books written by westerners and most of whom are devoid of any fee;ing for the religion claim that they are the real persons to interpret the hindu culure. In the process they make hinduism and and its sacred books books cheap by writng titles like " whose veda is it " Such statements may give a feeling of satisfaction to so called scholars to write what they wish on hinduism , but all that is no good since it is devoid of feeling which is the real essence of a religion as old as hinduism . M.rajagopalan From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 27 15:18:20 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 09:18:20 -0600 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023041.23782.15455839278079397165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Witzel , The Ny hinduja center might have been started for the noble cause of spreading Hknowledge on hindu culture in the west . But i the recent years it is using all that hugh sums of money to making hinduism cheap . The sacred books of Hindus are treated with no respect . Titles are used using the word " " vedas " in and out of context freely as if thet are some comedy books. The damage the Hinduja center is doing to Hinduism is not worth the support it recieves in the form of hugh money to spread a noble cause ( which is forgotten and not done) M.Rajagopalan From K12GNSQS at vaxc.hofstra.edu Tue Feb 27 18:18:54 1996 From: K12GNSQS at vaxc.hofstra.edu (K12GNSQS at vaxc.hofstra.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:18:54 -0400 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023043.23782.1428180406559763501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My name is Saurav Sarkar and I am an 18 year old Indian-American. I speak Bengali as my native language and I was wondering if anyone could point me to a good source, in english, to the history of Bengali as a language and its origins. Thanking you, Saurav Sarkar k12gnsqs at vaxc.hofstra.edu From PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 27 15:49:56 1996 From: PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU (Rita Vimal-Pandey) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 15:49:56 +0000 Subject: jnaneshvar conference Message-ID: <161227023038.23782.14385494919471852468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:04 PM 2/25/96 GMT, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-02-21 20:49:09 EST, you write: > >>But I am more inclined to agree with John Grime's feeling that >>Alandi is a powerful Shakti Peeth. Standing before the samadhi of Sant >>Jnaneshvar is an incredibly overwhelming experience. > >Amen to that! I had a similar experience. Jnanesvar holds a very special >place in my heart. Without knowing it I woound up in Tryambekeshwar and >found myself entering Nivruttinaths Samadhi, another Shakti Peeth as far as I >am concerned . Almost 12 years later I still can feel the rushes of Shakti >course through my body. >Well I just wanted to thank you for posting that message about Jnanadev, and >also to ask if you heard anything about the festivities that are happening >this year on the occasion of his 700th anniversary of his MahaSamadhi? > >Thanks and God bless you >Joel >bridgman at aol.com > > Can you please let me know the address of both of these shaktipeeths. From ersand at coco.ihi.ku.dk Tue Feb 27 16:06:33 1996 From: ersand at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 17:06:33 +0100 Subject: conference panel Message-ID: <161227023040.23782.15094001937404385666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To members of the indology list, We herewith announce a new panel at the 14th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies to be held in Copenhagen from August 21th to 24th 1996. The titel of the panel will be: The history and role of indigenous Sanskrit and Middle Indic (Pali and Prakrit) studies in the social and religious context of modern South Asia. The aim of the panel is to consider the largely unexplored history and role of Sanskrit and Middle Indic (Pali and Prakrit) in the social and religious context of South Asia in the 19th and 20th centuries. The conveners invite papers approaching the topic from a historical or sociological perspective with particular regard to the religious context of Sanskrit and Middle Indic studies, thus making it possible to shed light on various aspects of the transmission of traditional learning in South Asia. Conveners: Ole Holten Pind The Departmnet of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Leifsgade 33 2300 Copenhagen S Denmark and Erik Reenberg Sand Inastitute of the History of Religions University of Copenhagen Njalsgade 80 2300 Copenhagen S Denmark From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed Feb 28 02:26:01 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 18:26:01 -0800 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023045.23782.2749744092619190564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.K. Chatterji's Origin and Development of the Bengali Language is the classic work on the subject. I believe it has been reprinted recently in England. In any case it is widely available. -R. Salomon On Tue, 27 Feb 1996 K12GNSQS at vaxc.hofstra.edu wrote: > > My name is Saurav Sarkar and I am an 18 year old Indian-American. I speak > Bengali as my native language and I was wondering if anyone could point > me to a good source, in english, to the history of Bengali as a language > and its origins. > > Thanking you, > > Saurav Sarkar > k12gnsqs at vaxc.hofstra.edu > > > From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Feb 28 02:50:29 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 18:50:29 -0800 Subject: Messages from U.S. senators Message-ID: <161227023047.23782.15623828032083768203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone explain why the Indology List is receiving messages from U.S. senators? Luis Gonzalez-Reimann UC, Berkeley From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Wed Feb 28 11:47:44 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 05:47:44 -0600 Subject: Messages from U.S. senators Message-ID: <161227023053.23782.17609453732612066750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >Could someone explain why the Indology List is receiving messages from >U.S. senators? Here is my theory as to why the infamous and incorrigible senator, Jesse Helms and others, have sent mail to Indology: Since the subject line of the senatorial correspondence read "Re:!!!," and the ridiculous message from Hanuman7 at aol.com, with "good luck totems," also bore that subject line, the two are probably related. In some mail programs, such as Eudora, you can forward mail by "redirecting" it as an alternative way of forwarding it. Those on the receiving in, if they have another mail program, such as Pine, may not be able to tell if the message came from the person who redirected it or from the original sender. (This happened to me once when I redirected a list of WWW sites posted by Frank Colon at H-ASIA to a teacher in the Dept. of Education at UT and she could not tell that I had sent it to her. . . she had not scrolled down to the end of the message to see my signature before firing off a reply to Frank, thanking him. Since he had not idea who she was, this caused some confusion, but it alerted me that the differences between email programs may cause this confusion when using the "redirect" command.) This may be why the senators are sending their automatic messages to Indology, because either Hanuman7, who by the way lives at the Siddha Yoga Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY.*, or another Indology member, redirected the "Re:!!!" message to the senators. Nonetheless, Jesse Helms' message below caused me to snicker; the Internet is not ALL that boggles his mind!!! Jesse Helms wrote: > Many thanks for contacting me at my electronic mailbox address. (...) > I must admit, however, that for an old newspaper man > who still punches out letters on a manual typewriter, this innovation > is mind-boggling. *BTW, I wrote to Hanuman7 off-line and told her that this was a highly inappropriate message. (I must point out that I object to the appropriation of Hanuman's name by those who do not appreciate the tradition and would use Hanuman's image for foolishness or violence such as the militant wing of the Sangh Parivar, the Bajarang Dal.) In her response to me, Hanuman7 expressed her regret for sending such a stupid message. I would like to point out that anyone familiar with the relationship of the Siddha Yoga Ashram and the South Fallsburg NY community, the environmental degradation, the tax evasion, would not be surprised that this type of thoughtless violation would be perpetrated from that address. The story of the take over of the Mukhtananda lineage and the controversy between Chidvilasananda (sp?) and her brother Nityananda is filled with the same palace intrigue and manipulations as are stories of banishment in the best of the epics or perhaps a high drama Hindu soap opera, complete with scandals and stories of being drugged, etc. (I humbly assert that there is no offense to Hindu traditions intended by this observation.) Sasneha, Yvette C. Rosser ---+-}---+-}--+-<@ ----+-}---+-}---+-<@ ----+-}---+-}---+-<@ -<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>- Generate Ideas and Events to Promote Peace and Justice-- in YOUR OWN Community--Create & Celebrate: The First International -<@>- DAY WITHOUT VIOLENCE -<@>- - APRIL 4, 1996 - http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~iwork/peacetxt.htm @>---+-{---+-{--+--- "One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws" --Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> <@> \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/_ \|/ _\|/ _\|/ From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 09:38:31 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 09:38:31 +0000 Subject: Manuscript sale catalogue available Message-ID: <161227023049.23782.4087334535947739086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Message posted by proxy: Sam Fogg Rare Books & Manuscripts 35 St. George Street, London W1R 9FA Tel: +44-171-495-2333 FAX: +44-171-409-3326 Manuscripts of the Himalayas and the Indian Subcontinent 175 manuscripts dating from the 1st century AD to the present century, on palm leaf, paper, vellum, leather, birch bark, and bamboo. Texts in Sanskrit, Newari, Tibetan, Hindi, Urdu, Persian, Punjabi, Prakrit, Parsi Gujarati, Oriya, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, and Sinhalese. New, fully illustrated sale catalogue to be issued shortly. The catalogue will not be charged for in the initial mailing. From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Wed Feb 28 18:27:59 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 12:27:59 -0600 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227023060.23782.346175803897586292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Amita Sarin: The question as to what Khajuraho stands for is very welcome. It is especially so when there are many wrong articles published about Khajuraho in books,magazines and on the internet, describing Khajuraho as erotic or sexual in nature and that is what it stands for. If you are a Hindu, you would easily see that Hindu culture did not encourage bestility and sexual displays in public. Generally Hindus are not seen exhibiting vulgar sex movements in public. Then , how can a temple , which is the center which emanates Hindu teachings stand for being erotic? It does not make sense. People who say that Khajuraho is erotic and bestile should give more thought to your well founded question Khajuraho is a representation of the noblest and highest levels of principles of man. How do we know this?This we know by (1) reading what is inscribed on the walls of Khajuraho.. (2) asking the priests and other learned persons who were involved with Khajuraho in the past or, their descendents about what was handed down to them by their ancestors at Khajuraho. I (Rajagopalan) have talked with people living there. There is no indication of group sex or bestility in that society. The following verse is carved in Khajuraho: VinayA shobhate vidyA kulam shIlena shobhate nItyaiva shobhate rAjyaM pAnirdAnena shobhate. This means "The sign of a well educated person is humility. The sign of a good community is the character of its members (which implies that the members be not sexy or promiscuous). A good government is that that gives justice to its people. The hand shines when it is charitable and helps others.That is the true significance of Khajuraho. Sincerely yours- M. Rajagopalan (rajagopalanm at harpo.tnstate.edu ) and B. N. Narahari Achar(acharb at cc.memphis.edu) From ppulliai at ameba.lpt.fi Wed Feb 28 13:49:10 1996 From: ppulliai at ameba.lpt.fi (Petri Pulliainen) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 13:49:10 +0000 Subject: earpieces Message-ID: <161227023051.23782.17601472429253312938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Petri Pulliainen ENQUIRY Vapaudenkatu 15 B 39 1996-02-27 15140 Lahti home +358 18 7528 582 work +358 40 511 2986 E-mail ppulliai at ameba.lpt.fi I`m 26 year old graduating student from Lahti Institute of Design, Goldsmithing and Jewellery Design Department. For graduating I`m doing a research of male earpieces and existence in different cultures. I`d need as much information as possible about, how those were related into ones social statue, and were there any particular group of men who did wear those? I`m searching any- kind of information, it don`t have to be related to your culture, cause research area is from 5000 B.C >>>>>> 1996 A.D. Pictoral evidence would be very precious to me. Already thankful for your help!!!!!!!!!!! P.S. also names of books and writers helps and www paths too ! Yours humble student Petri Pulliainen From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 15:07:34 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 15:07:34 +0000 Subject: Messages from U.S. senators Message-ID: <161227023056.23782.10231428995751358919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann said: > Could someone explain why the Indology List is receiving messages from > U.S. senators? It must be because they are thinking of adopting Sanskrit as the language of administration in the US Senate. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 15:08:36 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 15:08:36 +0000 Subject: Manuscript sale catalogue available Message-ID: <161227023054.23782.1477989670604264683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk said: > Sam Fogg > Rare Books & Manuscripts > 35 St. George Street, > London W1R 9FA Sam Fogg has an email address: samfogg at dircon.co.uk Dominik Wujastyk From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Wed Feb 28 22:00:12 1996 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 16:00:12 -0600 Subject: Veda's demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023062.23782.15828134549063145229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Gaeffke wrote: "Whoever takes money from outside has to live with the stings attached to it". How true. He also writes," It remains a question whether scholars, especially in the west, should abandon independent judgement and become involved.." in persuits that "are not valid in their assessment of the past in a more scholarly sense.." Hmm. Read these: Monier-Williams: "I must draw attention to the fact that I am only the second occupant of the Boden Chair, and that its Founder, Colonel Boden stated explicitly in his will (dated Aug 15, 1811,A.D.) that the special object of his munificent bequest was to promote the translation of Scriptures into Sanskrit so as to proceed in the conversion of the natives of India to the Christian Religion" in preface to Sanskrit- English Dictionary. H. H. Wilson was the first occupant of the Boden Chair of Sanskrit. The reason for writing "The Religious and philosophical system of the Hindus" according to his own statement :" These lectures were written to help candidates for a prize of 200 pounds given by John Muir, a well known old Haileybury man and great sanskrit scholar, for the best refutation of the Hindu Religious system" The scholarly tradition goes on... _Narahari Achar From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu Feb 29 02:36:44 1996 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 18:36:44 -0800 Subject: Address request Message-ID: <161227023073.23782.15179134575443597207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't seem to find the e-mail address of Richard Cohen at University of Pennsylvania. Can someone help? Richard Salomon From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Thu Feb 29 01:19:46 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 19:19:46 -0600 Subject: Messages from U.S. senators Message-ID: <161227023064.23782.18008247733906566458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >Could someone explain why the Indology List is receiving messages from >U.S. senators? Here is my theory as to why the infamous and incorrigible senator, Jesse Helms and others, have sent mail to Indology: Since the subject line of the senatorial correspondence read "Re:!!!," and the ridiculous message from Hanuman7 at aol.com, with "good luck totems," also bore that subject line, the two are probably related. In some mail programs, such as Eudora, you can forward mail by "redirecting" it as an alternative way of forwarding it. Those on the receiving in, if they have another mail program, such as Pine, may not be able to tell if the message came from the person who redirected it or from the original sender. (This happened to me once when I redirected a list of WWW sites posted by Frank Colon at H-ASIA to a teacher in the Dept. of Education at UT and she could not tell that I had sent it to her. . . she had not scrolled down to the end of the message to see my signature before firing off a reply to Frank, thanking him. Since he had not idea who she was, this caused some confusion, but it alerted me that the differences between email programs may cause this confusion when using the "redirect" command.) This may be why the senators are sending their automatic messages to Indology, because either Hanuman7, who by the way lives at the Siddha Yoga Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY.*, or another Indology member, redirected the "Re:!!!" message to the senators. Nonetheless, Jesse Helms' message below caused me to snicker; the Internet is not ALL that boggles his mind!!! Jesse Helms wrote: > Many thanks for contacting me at my electronic mailbox address. (...) > I must admit, however, that for an old newspaper man > who still punches out letters on a manual typewriter, this innovation > is mind-boggling. *BTW, I wrote to Hanuman7 off-line and told her that this was a highly inappropriate message. (I must point out that I object to the appropriation of Hanuman's name by those who do not appreciate the tradition and would use Hanuman's image for foolishness or violence such as the militant wing of the Sangh Parivar, the Bajarang Dal.) In her response to me, Hanuman7 expressed her regret for sending such a stupid message. I would like to point out that anyone familiar with the relationship of the Siddha Yoga Ashram and the South Fallsburg NY community, the environmental degradation, the tax evasion, would not be surprised that this type of thoughtless violation would be perpetrated from that address. The story of the take over of the Mukhtananda lineage and the controversy between Chidvilasananda (sp?) and her brother Nityananda is filled with the same palace intrigue and manipulations as are stories of banishment in the best of the epics or perhaps a high drama Hindu soap opera, complete with scandals and stories of being drugged, etc. (I humbly assert that there is no offense to Hindu traditions intended by this observation.) Sasneha, Yvette From RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 29 02:00:41 1996 From: RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU (RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 20:00:41 -0600 Subject: Veda's demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023068.23782.17520792480196908758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Achar , Your letter on the purpose of Boden chair is very interesting and revealing . Now we have the Hinduja center in New York to follow more or less similar idea. M.Rajagopalan From filipsky at site.cas.cz Wed Feb 28 18:28:01 1996 From: filipsky at site.cas.cz (Jan Filipsky) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 20:28:01 +0200 Subject: HolikA Message-ID: <161227023058.23782.9100627972564279386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Netters, I am sorry to revert once again to the subject of HolikA, but owing to my being confined to bed for some time past I tried to send the following contribution via Eudora/Netscape/Trumpet to my server by modem already on Feb 16, but the message has probably never reached the Indology forum and therefore I take the liberty, with due apologies, of submitting it again to your consideration, for all it is worth. >On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Girish Beeharry wrote: >>Apparently, the name of Holi is connected to HolikA, a rAk.sasI.... According to Goesta Liebert (Iconographic Dictionary of the Indian Religions, Brill, Leiden 1976, p. 105), HolikA (Hi. HolkA MAtA) is the patroness of the holi festival; may originally have been a rakSasI or a female demon. During the Holi festival she is represented as a straw puppet which is chased by the children and finally burnt in fire. For further reading one is a bit disappointed to find only the time-hallowed H. von Glasenapp's Der Hinduismus (Muenchen 1922, p. 354: "Am Abend wird ein Feuer angezuendet, auf welchem eine Strohpuppe verbrannt wird), further L'Inde classique bz L. Renou and J. Filliozat, vol. 1, p. 590, and W. Koppers, Die Bhil in Zentralindien, Horn-Wien 1948, p. 149. N.N. Bhattacharyya in his Glossary of Indian Religious Terms and Concepts (Manohar, Delhi 1990, p. 99) calls holi also holikA (as well as HutAs'anI and PhAlgunikA) and suggests that the word may be derived from homa. NyAyakos'a or Dictionary of Technical Terms of Indian Philosophy by MahAmahopAdhyAya BhImAchArya JhalakIkar first published as early as in 1874, but later thoroughly revised and substantially enlarged by MahAmahopAdhyAya VAsudev ShAstrI Abhyankar (The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1978, p. 1086), quoting PuruSArthacintAmaNi, has the following to say on the subject of HolikA (s.v.): "sarvaduSTApaho homaH sarvarogopas'AntidaH/ kriyatesyAM dvijaiH pArtha tena sA holikA smRtA//309// atra viSes'aH sArdhayAmatrayaM vAM syAddvitIye divase yadA/ pratipadvardhamAnA tu tadA sA holikA smRtA//312// An even earlier authority, Edward Moor, in his The Hindu Pantheon, first published in 1810 and reprinted by Asian Educational Services (New Delhi 1981), refers to the festival as Huli, and goes on saying (p. 157): "The Huli, among the Hindus, reminds one strongly of the Saturnalia with the Romans: people of low condition take liberties with their superiors in a manner not admissible on other occasions. The chief form in public is throwing coloured powders on the clothes of persons passing in the streets, and squirting about tinted waters. Dignified persons avoid, as much as they can, appearing abroad while these jocularities are passing, unless with the view of gaining popularity they condescend to partake in them: in general they confine themselves to their homes, and sport with their women... Sending simpletons on idle errands contributes also to the delights of Huli: this is performed exactly similar to our ceremony of making April-fools on the first of that month and is common to all ranks of Hindus; and Mahomedans, indeed join in this, as well as in other items of Huli fun and humour." An interesting possibility to speculate about is suggested in the Dictionary of Vedic Rituals by Chitrabhanu Sen (Concept, Delhi 1978, p. 168, s.v. holakA): "a minor rite performed by maidens who are desirous of attaining good fortune; RAkA is the deity; also called HolAkA, etc. - KATHaka gRhyasUtra LXXIII.1." But we should probably be wary of the pitfall referred to in the following quote from Moore (p. 212): "A punster, as he ought to be called, rather than an etymologist; or perhaps, he was ridiculing the strained application of a pliant etymology; derived our holiday from huli day." Jan Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8 From mitra at aecom.yu.edu Thu Feb 29 01:37:48 1996 From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 20:37:48 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227023066.23782.5425380325101551156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it impossible for a man to be "sexy, promiscuous and humble"?! -JM. On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU wrote: > Dear Amita Sarin: > The following verse is carved in Khajuraho: > VinayA shobhate vidyA > kulam shIlena shobhate > nItyaiva shobhate rAjyaM > pAnirdAnena shobhate. > > This means "The sign of a well educated person is humility. > The sign of a good community is the character of its members > (which implies that the members be not sexy or promiscuous). > A good government is that that gives justice to its people. > The hand shines when it is charitable and helps others.That > is the true significance of Khajuraho. > Sincerely yours- M. Rajagopalan (rajagopalanm at harpo.tnstate.edu ) > and B. N. Narahari Achar(acharb at cc.memphis.edu) From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Thu Feb 29 04:50:33 1996 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 20:50:33 -0800 Subject: Veda's demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023075.23782.8246098391086773451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good grief! Is it time to restate--again--the purpose of this list? I'm getting tired of having my mailbox filled with unprofessional, nonprofessional, or otherwise emotive outbursts and attacks. Thanks, Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From Bridgman at aol.com Thu Feb 29 06:35:56 1996 From: Bridgman at aol.com (Bridgman at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 01:35:56 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227023077.23782.5541091047251962666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 96-02-28 20:36:15 EST, you write: >The sign of a well educated person is humility. >The sign of a good community is the character > of its members >(which implies that the members be not sexy or promiscuous). Mr. Rajagopalan, When will you start demonstrating some of these tenents? And when will your promiscuous baiting of the Indology list cease? From DA7 at soas.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 02:18:30 1996 From: DA7 at soas.ac.uk (Daud Ali) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 02:18:30 +0000 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227023071.23782.2797570720562856496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why must we swing between the rather tiresome poles of humanism. MAN TRIUMPHANT. Why should MAN the subject of these sculptures. Anti- humanism seems a more profitable avenue? From PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU Thu Feb 29 07:05:22 1996 From: PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 07:05:22 +0000 Subject: Mahabharata reference Message-ID: <161227023084.23782.14132847928760281415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, "compassion" is not correct here. MBh 5.43.8 is a triSTubh with a coalescence of vowels across the metric boundary of padas a & b, a not uncommon phenomenon in lists like this one. Its text should be read as: krodhah kaamo lobhamohau vivitsaakRpaasuyaa maanazokau spRhaa ca/ iirSyaa jugupsaa ca manuSyadoSaa varjyaah sadaa dvaadazaite nareNa//8// The Poona edition always prints each triSTubh pada on a separate line, but it uses a dash when it wishes to indicate that the end of one line should be read continuously with the beginning of the next line. The editor S. K. De has put the dash here at the pada boundary after vivitsaa, before krpaasauyaa, and he is obviously correct to have done so. I think van Buitenen simply overlooked it. NiilakaNTha (at 5.43.16, Citrashala ed.) read it as akRpaa and glossed it with nirdayatvam; Deussen and Strauss concurred and rendered it Hartherzigkeit (Vier philosophische Texte des Mahaabhaaratam, p. 13, #16). There is no need here to try and figure out why "kRpaa" would occur in such a list of doSas; it doesn't. Jim Fitzgerald, Religious Studies, University of Tennessee On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 02:42:19 GMT John Grimes said: >On page 288 of book 5 (5(52)43.7-10 of Van Buitenen's Mahabharata, he lits >the 12 vices as: anger, desire, greed, delusion, possessiveness, >compassion, discontentment, pride, grief, lust, jealousy, and abhorence. >Would anyone be able to tell me whether "compassion" is really one of the >twelve and if so, what is the sanskrit word it is a translation of? I do >not have a copy here of the Mahabharata in Sanskrit and thus my request. > >I would greatly any information I may receive on this. Thank you. >John > >--- >John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS > > > From kghosh at ceco.ceco.com Thu Feb 29 13:35:06 1996 From: kghosh at ceco.ceco.com (kghosh at ceco.ceco.com) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 07:35:06 -0600 Subject: Intolerance Message-ID: <161227023093.23782.8053765422407715639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unlike most of the members in the list I am not a professional Indologist. But I know intolerance when I see it. Mr. Rajagopalan who professes himself to be a true Hindu ought to know that one of Hinduisims greatest traits has been tolerance for the views of others, especially when they are different. Maybe he should start practising his tenet of "The sign of a well educated person is humility" and back of a little bit on his self appointed role of Indology moral educator. Khajuraho means diferent things to different people. I respect Mr. Rajagopalan's views, but then again he should respect those of us "lesser Hindus" who may differ with him. Sincerely. Kanchan Ghosh (a lesser Hindu) kghosh at ceco.ceco.com From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Thu Feb 29 14:24:20 1996 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 08:24:20 -0600 Subject: "Occi-centric" values in Vedic Studies? Message-ID: <161227023097.23782.15404879503249677734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Messages from U.S. senators Sorry Indology list, I don't THINK that I sent this message with my theory about the Jesse Helms message TWICE!?!? Strange. . . At least I didn't accidently send in that "Good Luck Totem" chain letter!!! I was relieved when Narahari Achar commented on Peter Gaeffke's statement. I'm not a student of the Hindu classics and therefore should perhaps not even be a member of Indology, however in regards to Peter Gaeffke's message Re: Hinduja's demise at NY. He stated insightfully: > This is not just a philological activity but an >attempt to get a clearer insight in the intellectual and >cultural/religious changes in the course of time. But then he made this statement which contradicted the previous one: >Then you get "neo" hinduistic interpretations of the past, which can >be interesting in themselves but are not valid in their assessment >of the past in a more scholarly sense. Though I understand the reasoning that compells Mr. Gaeffke to make this statement, I have difficulty swallowing the underlying "occi-centric" values in this type of perspective from those who study ancient India. I think this way of thinking needs to be problematized, in a more scholarly sense! Thanks to Mr. Achar for pointing this out! Yvette From mitra at aecom.yu.edu Thu Feb 29 14:20:19 1996 From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 09:20:19 -0500 Subject: Khajuraho Message-ID: <161227023101.23782.4304233771991788274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Man (the word) originates from the Sanskrit word of 'Manu' (inclusive). -JM. On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Daud Ali wrote: > Why must we swing between the rather tiresome poles of humanism. MAN > TRIUMPHANT. Why should MAN the subject of these sculptures. Anti- > humanism seems a more profitable avenue? From phijag at cobra.nus.sg Thu Feb 29 01:42:20 1996 From: phijag at cobra.nus.sg (phijag at cobra.nus.sg) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 09:42:20 +0800 Subject: Mahabharata reference Message-ID: <161227023069.23782.204578726477182926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On page 288 of book 5 (5(52)43.7-10 of Van Buitenen's Mahabharata, he lits the 12 vices as: anger, desire, greed, delusion, possessiveness, compassion, discontentment, pride, grief, lust, jealousy, and abhorence. Would anyone be able to tell me whether "compassion" is really one of the twelve and if so, what is the sanskrit word it is a translation of? I do not have a copy here of the Mahabharata in Sanskrit and thus my request. I would greatly any information I may receive on this. Thank you. John --- John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS From AmitaSarin at aol.com Thu Feb 29 15:03:03 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 10:03:03 -0500 Subject: earpieces Message-ID: <161227023099.23782.12568968203677268425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A good volume about earrings is Postel, M. Ear Ornaments of Ancient India. Bombay: Project for Indian Cultural Studies, 1989. There is also: Chandra, Rai Govind. Indo Greek Jewellery. New Delhi: Abhinav Publications, 1979. For jewelry accross cultures you could look at Mack, John. Ethnic Jewellery. British Museum, 1988. Don't know which of these has specific information about men's earpieces. But I hope these will be helpful. Best of luck, Amita Sarin From athr at loc.gov Thu Feb 29 15:22:46 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 10:22:46 -0500 Subject: Address request Message-ID: <161227023103.23782.2476965027591418576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Cohen's email address is: spcohen at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Allen Thrasher On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Richard Salomon wrote: > > I can't seem to find the e-mail address of Richard Cohen at University of > Pennsylvania. Can someone help? > > Richard Salomon > > From steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Thu Feb 29 08:46:36 1996 From: steiner at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (Steiner Roland) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 10:46:36 +0200 Subject: Mahabharata reference Message-ID: <161227023079.23782.10880888032750334399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 02:36:04 GMT, John Grimes wrote: >On page 288 of book 5 (5(52)43.7-10 of Van Buitenen's Mahabharata, he lits >the 12 vices as: anger, desire, greed, delusion, possessiveness, >compassion, discontentment, pride, grief, lust, jealousy, and abhorence. >Would anyone be able to tell me whether "compassion" is really one of the >twelve and if so, what is the sanskrit word it is a translation of? I do >not have a copy here of the Mahabharata in Sanskrit and thus my request. > >I would greatly any information I may receive on this. Thank you. >John > >--- >John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS Mbh 5.438b: krpaa = "compassion" (van Buitenen) Roland Steiner Department of Indology, University of Marburg Wilhelm-Roepke-Strasse 6F D-35032 Marburg Germany Tel.: 06421/282184 Fax: 06421/288913 email: steiner at mailer.uni-marburg.de From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Feb 29 09:55:00 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 10:55:00 +0100 Subject: Messages from U.S. senators Message-ID: <161227023080.23782.6206189955807200346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >>Could someone explain why the Indology List is receiving messages from >>U.S. senators? > >Here is my theory as to why the infamous and incorrigible senator, Jesse >Helms and others, have sent mail to Indology: > >Since the subject line of the senatorial correspondence read "Re:!!!," and >the ridiculous message from Hanuman7 at aol.com, with "good luck totems," also >bore that subject line, the two are probably related. In some mail >programs, such as Eudora, you can forward mail by "redirecting" it as an >alternative way of forwarding it. ... If this is the correct explanation, we now know that US senators answer their email automatically be means of ready-made message. They obviously don't even read what people write. What a relief to their secretaries! Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Feb 29 09:57:50 1996 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 10:57:50 +0100 Subject: Address request Message-ID: <161227023082.23782.9881597521649164128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I can't seem to find the e-mail address of Richard Cohen at University of >Pennsylvania. Can someone help? > >Richard Salomon Richard, you probably already got it from somebody else, but anyway, here it is: rcohen at mail.sas.upenn.edu Lars Martin Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 11:13:03 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 11:13:03 +0000 Subject: Indology list , inquiry about digest version . Message-ID: <161227023086.23782.8454048838246153166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> International Buddhist Research and Information Center said: > Is there a digest version of the list ? Yes. In fact, the listserv software that INDOLOGY uses has quite a number of nice features that you might want to know about (like being able to turn INDOLOGY on and off when you are away for a few days, without having to unsubscribe completely, etc.). If you send the message help to the address listserv at liverpool.ac.uk you get information about the various controls that the software offers. The main command for this sort of thing is "set". If you send the message help set to the above address, you get a response which includes how to tell INDOLOGY to send you not separate messages, but periodical newsletter-like groupings of messages. To get INDOLOGY digested, what you do is send the message set indology mail digest to the address listserv at liverpool.ac.uk Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 11:35:41 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 11:35:41 +0000 Subject: Veda's demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023088.23782.3257715932209683182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU said: > Read these: > > Monier-Williams: "I must draw attention to the fact that I am only the second ... > > H. H. Wilson was the first occupant of the Boden Chair of Sanskrit. The reason ... > > The scholarly tradition goes on... > _Narahari Achar Dear Narahari Achar, I'm afraid that your lack of professional involvement in university-level indological studies means that you are unaware of the history of Sanskrit studies in Britain. The above quotations from Williams and Wilson do not reflect either their own wider views and concerns, nor are such views in any way a tradition, let alone one that "goes on". For an excellent account of the debate surrounding the founding of the Boden chair at Oxford, see the inaugural lecture by Prof. Richard Gombrich, published by OUP in the 1980s some time. It may be available at your local indology department library. Dominik Wujastyk From pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Thu Feb 29 16:50:32 1996 From: pgaeffke at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Peter Gaeffke) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 11:50:32 -0500 Subject: Address request Message-ID: <161227023106.23782.2283287618713740203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Cohen The address is sasia at pennsas : I don't think that this is the full address. I shall try to get it from another source and post it again. Peter Gaeffke From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 11:55:23 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 11:55:23 +0000 Subject: Veda's demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023090.23782.8230189096671280455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RAJAGOPALANM at HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU said: > > Dear Achar , > Your letter on the purpose of Boden chair is very interesting and revealing . > Now we have the Hinduja center in New York to follow more or less similar idea. > M.Rajagopalan Dear Mr Rajagopalan, Achar's letter is not interesting or revealing at all, for the reasons given in the literature on the history of the Boden chair, and because of the history of Sanskrit studies in Britain, with which you may not be intimately familiar. The Dharam Hinduja centre in New York has no connection with the Boden Chair in Oxford, not even an imagined similarity of imagined policies. Dominik Wujastyk From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Feb 29 17:25:54 1996 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 12:25:54 -0500 Subject: earpieces Message-ID: <161227023110.23782.824411262377617776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The subject of male ear-rings in India is indeed very interesting and important. We indeed hear of KarNa in the Mahaabhaarata as possessing divine Kavaca and KuNDalas. In the 17th century Maharashtra, there is clear evidence of ear-rings as being common for Brahman males. They are given as gifts of honor by kings. The Marathi word for it is "bhikbaaLii". Male Brahman children to this day have their ears routinely pierced. I myself have pierced ears, which were indeed useful to me when I acted the roles of the kings Agnimitra and Dushyanta during my college days in Pune, and I had to wear the royal ear-rings, along with the rest of the costume. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Petri Pulliainen wrote: > > > > Petri Pulliainen ENQUIRY > Vapaudenkatu 15 B 39 1996-02-27 > 15140 Lahti > home +358 18 7528 582 > work +358 40 511 2986 > E-mail ppulliai at ameba.lpt.fi > > > > > I`m 26 year old graduating student from Lahti Institute of Design, > Goldsmithing and Jewellery Design Department. For graduating > I`m doing a research of male earpieces and existence in different > cultures. I`d need as much information as possible about, how > those were related into ones social statue, and were there any > particular group of men who did wear those? I`m searching any- > kind of information, it don`t have to be related to your culture, > cause research area is from 5000 B.C >>>>>> 1996 A.D. Pictoral > evidence would be very precious to me. Already thankful for > your help!!!!!!!!!!! > P.S. also names of books and writers helps and www paths too ! > > > > > Yours humble student > > Petri Pulliainen > > > > From Hanuman7 at aol.com Thu Feb 29 17:43:14 1996 From: Hanuman7 at aol.com (Hanuman7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 12:43:14 -0500 Subject: Formal Apology to Indology List Message-ID: <161227023108.23782.499142093463245168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *One More time, thank you for allowing me to smell the coffee* Hello, my name is Stephane Dehais. Last week I received a silly "chain letter" forwarded to me from new york city. In a sophomoric moment, I thoughtlessly forwarded the letter on to the respectable Indology list. I now apologize for wasting your time, energy, bandwidth, and for cluttering your mailbox. I have responded to all the emailed complaints personally, but *just to make sure* we can all put this behind us and move forward, I now make it public that I deeply regret this episode, that this inane message was posted from my personal account and does not reflect the views or opinions of any organization or individual I may be associated with. Please do not blame anyone else. This is my final email to the Indology list. If I may be so bold, since you are already reading this, to include a more uplifting quote to end on a higher note. This will say more about the respect I hold for the scholars on the list, by addressing your intellect and your heart: "Mais, croyez-en, amis, ma voix prete a s'eteindre, Par-dela tous ces dieux que notre oeil peut atteindre, Il est sous la nature, il est au fond des cieux Quelque chose d'obscur et de mysterieux Que la necessite, que la raison proclame Et que voit seulement la foi, cet oeil de l'ame ! Contemporain des jours et de l'eternite ! Grand comme l'infini, seul comme l'unite ! Impossible a nommer ! a nos sens impalpable ! Son premier attribut c'est d'etre inconcevable ! Dans les lieux, dans les temps, hier, demain, aujourd'hui, Descendons, remontons, nous arrivons a lui ! Tout ce que vous voyez est sa toute-puissance ! Tout ce que nous pensons est sa sublime essence ! Force, amour, verite, createur de tout bien, C'est le dieu de vos dieux ! C'est le seul ! C'est le mien !x " - La Mort de Socrate M. De Lamartine, de l'Academie Francaise Thank you. SDH From jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu Thu Feb 29 18:12:00 1996 From: jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu (jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 13:12:00 -0500 Subject: vastu shaastra Message-ID: <161227023111.23782.5978890575867989922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not sure if you want materials related to vaastu shaastra only, silpa shaastra, vaastu purusa or something else. As a beginning, let me offer several titles which may be of some use: Three books published by the Sitaram Bhartia Institute of Scientific Research, New Delhi MAYAMATA: An Indian Treatise on Housing Architecture, tr. Bruno Dagens (1985) ARCHITECTURE IN THE AJITAGAMA AND THE RAURAVAGAMA, tr. Bruno Dagens (1984) I also understand that they have published a BIBLIOGRAPHY OF WORKS ON VAASTU SHAASTRA but I have not seen this one. You may also want to look at Balkrishna V. Doshi's VAASTU SHILPA9 (on modern architecture) and D. Muralidhan Rao's VAASTU SHILPA SHAASTRA, Bangalore; S. B. S. Publishers, 1995 (which I have not seen yet since it was recently published). Dan White jdwhite at email.uncc.edu >A friend just returned from India has asked me for reliable references to >vast shaastra, about which I know nothing. Can anyone offer such? Thank >you, >George Thompson > > > > From ds10020 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 13:28:47 1996 From: ds10020 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Dhooleka Sarhadi Raj) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 13:28:47 +0000 Subject: Veda`s demise at NY Hinduja Ctr. Message-ID: <161227023091.23782.12775927840815037076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SLOLY LEFT THE SCREEN- SORRY ABOUT THE TYPS... SPATE SHOULD READ SPAT! dHOOLEKA From somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk Thu Feb 29 13:53:13 1996 From: somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk (Somdev Vasudeva) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 13:53:13 +0000 Subject: Appearance of lunar digit on Nandaa Message-ID: <161227023095.23782.337242513486942292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A query regarding the appearance of the lunar digit on Nandaa, the first tithi of the "suklapak.sa. I seem to remember that the first few digits of the waxing moon in India form a lunar sickle which appears almost horizontal to the horizon, resembling a smiling mouth (with which it is often compared in kaavya lit.). Conversely, at the end of the waning fortnight the lunar digit would resemble an unhappy face. Here, (Oxford,UK) the sickle appears to slant strongly towards the upper right. Since my acquaintance with astronomy is infinitesimal, I would be very grateful for any information whether this apparent angle is indeed related to latitude or not. Somdev Vasudeva From bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu Thu Feb 29 21:17:06 1996 From: bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu (B. Hatcher) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 15:17:06 -0600 Subject: Mahabharata reference Message-ID: <161227023114.23782.13061409987943203001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jim Fitzgerald seems to have provided an excellent answer to the original query. It does appear that van Buitenen missed something. 'Compassion' doesn't belong in the list, rather its opposite. Not having a Sanskrit edition of the MBh, I checked Kaliprasanna Sinha's massive Bengali translation done with the assistance of numerous pandits. His list reads: kaama, krodha, lobha, moha, vidhitsaa [atrpti], *nirdayataa*, asuuyaa, maana, shoka, sprhaa, iirs.aa, jugupsaa. [Udyogaparvan 42; vol. 1, p. 733] Brian Hatcher Illinois Wesleyan University On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, John Grimes wrote: > On page 288 of book 5 (5(52)43.7-10 of Van Buitenen's Mahabharata, he lits > the 12 vices as: anger, desire, greed, delusion, possessiveness, > compassion, discontentment, pride, grief, lust, jealousy, and abhorence. > Would anyone be able to tell me whether "compassion" is really one of the > twelve and if so, what is the sanskrit word it is a translation of? I do > not have a copy here of the Mahabharata in Sanskrit and thus my request. > > I would greatly any information I may receive on this. Thank you. > John > > --- > John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS > > > >