From jai at mantra.com Sun Dec 1 18:42:31 1996 From: jai at mantra.com (jai at mantra.com) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 08:42:31 -1000 Subject: Hindi etc. Message-ID: <161227027189.23782.2556065688892893208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskaar! What the following note appended to the historic Bharat-China treaty signed yesterday advises could spark debates in certain fora for years to come, but I doubt that it will: "Signed in duplicate in New Delhi on 29 November, 1996 in the Hindi, Chinese and English languages, all three texts being equally authentic. In case of divergence, the English text shall prevail." Jai Maharaj jai at mantra.com %:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:% From conlon at u.washington.edu Sun Dec 1 17:49:55 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 09:49:55 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027186.23782.14322714350787329463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Adi Hastings wrote: > Actually, at least in the U.S., "pragmatic" concerns were a main reason > for the development of area studies programs--essentially products of the > cold-war. Area studies got a big boost from WW II and its aftermath, when > the U.S. government put a lot of money into funding programs teaching > about various areas of "vital national interest" (e.g., Eastern European > and Soviet studies, South Asian studies, East Asian studies, etc.), and > this included linguistic training, of course. In the academic geography of > the U.S., various "centers" stand out as being particularly important for > this-or-that areal program (for South Asia, e.g., Chicago, Berkeley, and > others). Funding, especially governmental funding, is _never_ for purely > "intellectual" concerns. There is a small problem in this often repeated interpretation. The area studies interest generated by the Second World War, did not immediately spawn any significant U.S. government support for South Asian "area studies." The initial interest and support came in highly focussed and donations from foundations. The National Defense Education Act, (Title VI) programs commenced at what might be termed a point of lower intensity in the cold war. It certainly is true that American scholars tried to sell the idea of government support as being "in the national interest", and in the late Eisenhower years, it was far easier to create new programs if the word "defense" were added. (Our interstate freeways were "national defense highways.") At this distance in time, it is emotionally gratifying to some, to portray the early years of area studies in America as purely a sinister extension of the cold war and all that, and government support particularly to be seen as a distorting and dangerous element. I will try the patience of those on the list who have heard me invoke this before, but to me the epitome of the "sinister" effects of U.S. government policy lay in those NDEA fellowships whereby students at Adi Hasting's institution could spend time studying erotic Bengali poetry with Ed Dimock. Now THAT clearly WAS in the national interest!! cheers, Frank Conlon University of Washington From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Dec 1 15:55:42 1996 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 09:55:42 -0600 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027182.23782.12900892011415514789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > It seems to me that the basic problem is that the agencies that fund > universitities these days are less and less interested in intellectual > matters and more and more interested in pragmatic concerns. Sinology is > being funded because China is economically and politically important, not > because the funders think that China is such an interesting place. In a Actually, at least in the U.S., "pragmatic" concerns were a main reason for the development of area studies programs--essentially products of the cold-war. Area studies got a big boost from WW II and its aftermath, when the U.S. government put a lot of money into funding programs teaching about various areas of "vital national interest" (e.g., Eastern European and Soviet studies, South Asian studies, East Asian studies, etc.), and this included linguistic training, of course. In the academic geography of the U.S., various "centers" stand out as being particularly important for this-or-that areal program (for South Asia, e.g., Chicago, Berkeley, and others). Funding, especially governmental funding, is _never_ for purely "intellectual" concerns. Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago From garzilli at shore.net Sun Dec 1 19:52:11 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 14:52:11 -0500 Subject: JSAWS Vol. 2, No. 3 (1996) Message-ID: <161227027191.23782.11878051875861971980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are very glad to announce that JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES VOL. 2 (1996), No. 3, December 1 ISSN 1085-7478 Copyright (c)1995-96 JSAWS http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ has just been emailed to our Members. You can read the issue on our ftp server. In a few dyas it will be published in our WWW pages. IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPER: *From 'Baylan' to 'Bruha': Hispanic Impact on the Animist Priestess in the Philippines* by Carolyn Brewer - NEW TITLES: Review of Eva Steiner Moseley (ed.) *Women, Information, and the Future* (Enrica Garzilli) - COPYRIGHT NOTICE Abstract In the Philippines, at the time of the Spanish conquest, the Catholic priests were instructed by Bishop Salazar to learn and preach in the languages of the inhabitants. However, certain cluster of words, especially those involving Animist priestesses were altered, negated and then marginalised almost to extinction. This movement paralleled the demonisation and eventual disappearance of the priestesses from historical texts. The paper wants to: 1) describe the process involved in this double negation; 2) recover the forgotten words; 3) give Animist priestesses back their rightful place in Philippine history. * * * * * As already announced, the collected JSAWS 1995-1996 issues containing the Dowry and Bride-burning International Conferences' papers will be printed and distributed as books in about a month. As soon as we have the first copy ready we will give you the bibliographic information and price. * * * * * Enjoy the reading! Dr. Enrica Garzilli Editor-in-Chief From Sfauthor at aol.com Sun Dec 1 19:52:41 1996 From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 14:52:41 -0500 Subject: Language enrollments Message-ID: <161227027192.23782.17905425607544894624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My compliments to Lars Martin Fosse for his perceptive comments throughout the--sometimes less than stellar--"Hindi thread." The following excerpt is from the Agora newsletter. Their website is at http://www.agoralang.com/. Note the drop in Russian following real world events. As I remarked some months ago, China and Japan have risen on the world stage, India hasn't yet, and teaching positions and class enrollments reflect that. Brian Akers -------------------------------------------- MLA Survey Points to Shifts in Language Study In a study of 2,700 two- and four-year U.S. colleges the Modern Language Association found students were studying languages in the following numbers: Spanish - 606,286 French - 205,351 German - 96,263 Japanese - 44,723 Italian - 43,760 Chinese - 26,471 Russian - 24,729 Arabic - 4,444. National enrollments for language studies have dropped by 4% overall. The most noticeable shifts were in Chinese, which has gained by 36 percent since the last survey, and Arabic by 28 percent. The general trend toward Spanish has continued unabated, wooing students away from French and German, which have both lost by 28%. Russian has fallen by a dizzying 45% since the end of the Cold War. Strangely, as the U.S. enters a time of economic globalization, its citizenry and local educational policy seem to favor putting all eggs in the "Spanish" basket. While NAFTA paves the way for much more trade with Central and South America, there are many other worlds which we must understand in order to remain informed, not only economically, but politically and culturally. As Northeastern University Spanish professor Stephen Sadow puts it "I teach Spanish yet I am deeply concerned at the reduction in diverse language offerings across the board. In this country we need a critical number of good speakers of Swahili, of Ukranian, of Portuguese, and many other world languages. As we to lose our appreciation for the great literatures of Germany, France and Italy we become a poorer nation." From ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Dec 1 21:16:34 1996 From: ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu (Lawrence J. McCrea) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 15:16:34 -0600 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027197.23782.12769801508767524678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Sun, 1 Dec 1996 18:25:31 GMT, mgansten at sbbs.se (Martin Gansten) writes: > In a Sanskrit text I am currently translating, I found three words not > listed in any of my dictionaries: (1) andolya; (2) vi.dvara; (3) du'scilka > (this last word should have some astrological meaning). Does anyone out > there know the meanings of these words? Thanks in advance. > > Martin Gansten > mgansten at sbbs.se > Andolya would seem to be the gerundive form of the verb andolayati ("oscillate, move to and fro"); Apte does not list this form, but does give the verb and the verbal noun andolanam ("oscillation"). Du'scilka is presumably a variant form of du'scikya, which Apte [in the appendix to the fourth edition] defines as "an astrological term for the third raa'si from the lagna"-- i.e. the third zodiacal house from the point at which the course of a planet intersects the horizon. Vi.dvara is a mystery to me, but Apte does give the word vi.dvaraja ("born of vi.dvara") as a name for lapis lazuli. Hope this is of some help. Yours Sincerely, Lawrence J. McCrea University of Chicago From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Sun Dec 1 22:00:18 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 17:00:18 -0500 Subject: public works in Ramayana Message-ID: <161227027196.23782.16441853744651732664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nota Bene: The paperback version of the Goldman Ramayana does NOT contain the same contents as the hardback version. For scholarly purposes one must refer to the - of course expensive - hardback. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun Dec 1 16:47:03 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 17:47:03 +0100 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027184.23782.17341797332135594517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adi Hastings wrote: >> It seems to me that the basic problem is that the agencies that fund >> universitities these days are less and less interested in intellectual >> matters and more and more interested in pragmatic concerns. Sinology is >> being funded because China is economically and politically important, not >> because the funders think that China is such an interesting place. In a > >Actually, at least in the U.S., "pragmatic" concerns were a main reason >for the development of area studies programs--essentially products of the >cold-war. Area studies got a big boost from WW II and its aftermath, when >the U.S. government put a lot of money into funding programs teaching >about various areas of "vital national interest" (e.g., Eastern European >and Soviet studies, South Asian studies, East Asian studies, etc.), and >this included linguistic training, of course. In the academic geography of >the U.S., various "centers" stand out as being particularly important for >this-or-that areal program (for South Asia, e.g., Chicago, Berkeley, and >others). Funding, especially governmental funding, is _never_ for purely >"intellectual" concerns. Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I knew that this kind of attitude went back a few years, but not to that extent. It seems that we have been moving away from Humboldt's ideas about what university studies are about (thinking for the sake of thinking, not for practical objectives) for a more extended period of time than I was aware of. (Not that I have anything against practical objectives as such, as long as they leave room for other concerns as well). But in Europe, at least, I had the feeling that the pursuit of knowledge used to be funded at least partly because it was seen as a good thing in itself. This is the motivation that now seems to be disappearing even here. Hard-nosed economics are getting into the way universities are run and students "produced", and this is no advantage to academic subjects that are not perceived as bringing many results that are economically or politically "relevant" - at least in the eyes of the funders. It therefore seems that academics who want to uphold traditional academic values are caught between a rock and a hard place, and they are in need of a strategy. They are, metaphorically speaking, faced with a snarling dog, and to defend what is dear to them, they will have to throw the dog a bone. In my opinion, finding such a bone and convincing the funders to accept it (the trade-off being at least the partial preservation of traditional academic values) is of the utmost importance to Indology. Without the bone, there is a good chance that they will be going for our throats before we know it. It is already happening in some places, if I remember some of the previous messages correctly. The alternative - and in ideal terms the best one - would be to convince them to return to the old ideas about the inherent value of knowldege for the sake of knowledge. Given the perpetual funding crises at a large number of universities and the instrumentalisation of knowledge that has occurred in Western culture after the second world war, I think, however, that chances are slight that such a strategy would succeed. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Sun Dec 1 23:59:04 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 17:59:04 -0600 Subject: The word "upanishad" Message-ID: <161227027199.23782.17446713770173335781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd had the same question Neb or no--and Steve Lindquist of UChicago directed me to an etymology discussed in an article in French by Renou, as u + pari + sad . . . I was hoping to get the citation from him before he left for Benares . . . NB--does anyone know how to reach him? Thanks to previous postings for citations of which I'd not been aware on this matter. If Anyone has the Renou citation, TYIA John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From mgansten at sbbs.se Sun Dec 1 18:19:29 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 19:19:29 +0100 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027187.23782.5914254304934316558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a Sanskrit text I am currently translating, I found three words not listed in any of my dictionaries: (1) andolya; (2) vi.dvara; (3) du'scilka (this last word should have some astrological meaning). Does anyone out there know the meanings of these words? Thanks in advance. Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sun Dec 1 19:54:40 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 20:54:40 +0100 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027194.23782.16064395538863527008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frank Conlon wrote: >I will try the patience of those on the list who have heard me invoke this >before, but to me the epitome of the "sinister" effects of U.S. government >policy lay in those NDEA fellowships whereby students at Adi Hasting's >institution could spend time studying erotic Bengali poetry with Ed >Dimock. Now THAT clearly WAS in the national interest!! You see what good things happen when you throw the snarlig dog (funders) a bone (national interest). Sheltered by this sinister concept, you can spend your time studying erotic poetry! Lars Martin Fosse From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Mon Dec 2 14:49:50 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 06:49:50 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027206.23782.14078817085249781579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 2, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members Frank writes: "my sense has been that many, perhaps most, graduate students AND faculty who are in disciplines such as Anthropology, History and Political Science, have regarded language instruction as merely an instrumental means toward an end." Indeed. And their attitude toward their language teaching colleagues is often revealed inadequate language skills, too. Gone is the pride in being able to speak a South Asian language (whatever its size) with real fluency. Gone, too, in many of the disciplines is the need. Many graduate student perceive that the real language skills they need to get through is in their discipline's discourse. Where the root of the problem may lie is that over the past several decades, at some, not all, American universities, there has been an erosion of the sense of common interests between South Asianists located in their separate departments. Frank also alludes to this: "I think there is also an additional need for whole understanding, and that is a continued exploration of literature and other cultural expressions, which may well be researched by faculty who are appointed to teach languages." But I don't see this as contradictory a goal as Frank does. One of the arguments that our deans are looking for in requests for new faculty is the ability to fill the needs of several departments at once. South Asianist may have to fight harder with their disciplinary colleagues to get them to support South Asian language positions even if it means some small sacrifices (eg. a fraction of a position) from their departments. I sympathisize with the fact that with declining enrollments in South Asia courses in departments many South Asia specialist feel they are in a weak position to argue, but it is easier for them to do so on academic grounds than it is for others. And when it comes time for tenure decisions (are these in our future still?) the need for language teachers has to be argued vehemently in letters of support from the disciplines. Often faculty in the social sciences and humanities have considerable clout with the administration. On the other hand, the language faculty have to do their part in demonstrating the value of their presence on campus. I have a feeling most do, but there is need for constant re-examination of their role in the larger South Asia program. If they allow themselves to become too specialized it is more understandable that they should loose their academic support base. I know all of this sounds awfully idealistic and old- fashioned, and maybe even wrong-headed from some ideological perspectives, but that is a matter for a different discussion. In fact, I am somewhat surprised no one has alluded to the directional changes away from area studies altogether which have been made at the level of the Social Science Research Council and the American Council of Learned Societies (see the last several issues of _Items_). Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From mgansten at sbbs.se Mon Dec 2 08:16:37 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 09:16:37 +0100 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027202.23782.569616627649294504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Lawrence McCrea for his help with the word "du'scilka", which indeed is probably a variant of du'scikya, and with the derivation of "andolya". I would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to what sort of object "andolya" might refer to (judging from the context, it ought to be a desirable one), as well as to the meaning of "vi.dvara", which ought to have some evil significance -- the text speaks of "putra-varga-manastaapam, jana-dve.sa.m ca vi.dvaram". Thanks also to J. Grimes, M. Witzel, C. Narayan, and J. Gardner for their replies to my recent query concerning the word "upanishad". I don't believe that the text I had in mind has been identified so far, but I'm grateful for the new leads. Martin Gansten mgansten at sbbs.se From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za Mon Dec 2 07:30:13 1996 From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 09:30:13 +0200 Subject: The word "upanishad" Message-ID: <161227027201.23782.12821924785372844107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Martin Gansten's enquiry about the word "upanishad", the following (rather old personal) notes (using Latex2.09 + Velthuis) may contain some references of interest: Regards, Charles Wikner. _____________ @nolig 1 6 7 14 20 32 36 37 38 41 53 54 60 74 75 76 77 80 82 84 87 90 91 92 93 97 \documentstyle[dev,emb,12pt]{article} \textwidth 6.5in \oddsidemargin 0pt \evensidemargin -8mm % 0pt \topmargin -40pt \addtolength{\textheight}{2.3in} \parindent 0pt \parskip 1ex \hyphenpenalty=9999 \renewcommand{\baselinestretch}{1.1} \newcommand{\key}[1] { \vspace{4ex}\hspace*{-2em}{\Large{#1}} } \begin{document} \pagestyle{empty} \underline{\underline{\Large{\dn upani.sad}}}\hfill 30 June 1993\vspace{2mm} {\large{\dn upa-ni-}$\surd$\,{\dn sad}\,}{\small +}{\large\,{\dn pratyaya kvip}} \key{\bf Dictionary} 1.~{\em upa-ni-\d{s}ad} ({\em upa-ni-}$\surd${\em sad}) {\sc mw} 201/1 to sit down near to, to approach, set about. 2.~{\em upa-ni\d{s}ad} {\sc mw} 201/1 f.~(according to some) the sitting down at the feet of another to listen to his words (and hence, secret knowledge given in this manner; but according to native authorities {\em upani\d{s}ad} means `the setting at rest ignorance by revealing knowledge of the supreme spirit'); the mystery which underlies or rests underneath the external system of things; esoteric doctrine, secret doctrine, mysteries or mystical meaning, words of mystery; a class of philosophical writings (\ldots\,their aim is the exposition of the secret meaning of the {\em Veda\/}, and they are regarded as the source of the {\em Ved\={a}nta} and {\em S\={a}\d{m}khya} philosophies). {\Large{\dn upa||}} {\sc mw} 194.3 towards, near to, (opp.~to {\dn apa}\/) by the side of, with, together with, under, down {\Large{\dn ni||}} {\sc mw} 538.3 down, back, in, into, within {\Large$\surd$\,{\dn sad}} {\sc mw} 1138/2 sit down, sit upon or in or at \ldots\\ to sit down before, besiege, lie in wait for, watch.\\ sink down, sink into despondency or distress, become faint or wearied or dejected or low spirited, despair, pine or waste away, perish.\\ to put in distress, afflict, weary, exhaust, ruin, destroy. {\Large$\bullet$} {\em upa-}$\surd${\em sad} {\sc mw} 209/1 to sit upon, to sit near to, approach, revere, worship; to approach asking, request, crave for \ldots {\Large$\bullet$} {\em ni\d{s}ad} ($\surd${\em sad\/}) {\sc mw} 561/3 to sit or lie down or rest upon; to sink or go down (as a ship); to be afflicted, suffer pain; \ldots\ to set, found, establish, appoint. \key{\emb Dh\={a}tup\={a}\d{t}ha} \dnnum {\large{\dn .sad.l bhvaa@ pa@ a@ 18-2 vi"sara.nagatyavasaadane.su||}}\\ {\large{\dn .sad.l tu@ pa@ a@ 36-2 vi"sara.nagatyavasaadane.su||}} [Incidentally, this is an example of a {\dn dhaatu} beginning with the letter {\dn s} which changes to {\dn .s} (when preceded by certain letters), and thus, for brevity, listed in the {\dn dhaatupaa.tha} with this letter changed.] {\Large$\bullet$} {\large{\dn vi"sara.na}} {\sc mw} 991/3 n.~dissolution, killing, slaughter {\em vi-}$\surd${\em s\d{\={r}}} {\sc mw} 992/2 to be broken or shattered or dissolved, crumble or fall to pieces, waste away, decay; to be scattered or dispersed; to be severed from; to be damaged or destroyed; perish. {\dn vi} {\sc mw} 949.3 apart, asunder, in different directions, to and fro, about, away, away from, off, without.\\ Expresses division,distinction, distribution, arrangement, order, opposition, deliberation; sometimes opposite to idea in simple root, or intensifies idea $\surd${\em s\d{\={r}}} {\sc mw} xxx/x to crush, break, rend. {\Large$\bullet$} {\large{\dn gati}} {\sc mw} f.~going, movement, gait, deportment, motion in general \ldots\\ path, way, course, place of issue. Origin, reason, means, art, method. $\surd${\em gam} {\sc mw} 346/3 to go, move, go away, set out, come, to go to or towards, to approach. {\Large$\bullet$} {\large{\dn avasaadana}} {\sc 105/1} n.~oppressing, disheartening {\em ava-}$\surd${\em sad} {\sc mw} 104/3 to sink (as into water); to sink down, faint, grow lean; become exhausted or disheartened, come to an end, perish. {\dn ava} {\sc mw} 96/1 off, away, down \key{\bf Commentators} The word {\em Upani\d{s}ad} has been derived variously by various scholars. ``The Western scholars,'' says Prof.~Max~M\"{u}ller, ``are agreed in deriving {\em Upa-ni-\d{s}ad} from the root {\em sad} to sit down, preceded by the two prepositions, {\em ni\/}, down, and {\em upa\/}, near, so that it expresses the idea of session, an assembly of pupils sitting down near their teacher to listen to his instructions.'' He himself also holds this view though he admits the word never occurs in this sense anywhere.\\ {\small\sc Swami Madhavananda, Introduction p.~vii, Minor Upanishads} \vspace{3mm} This knowledge of {\em Brahman} is called `{\em Upani\d{s}ad\/}' because it entirely removes this relative world together with its cause from those who betake themselves to this study.\\ {\small\sc \`{S}a\d{m}kara, Introduction p.1, B\d{r}had\={a}ra\d{n}yaka Upani\d{s}ad} \vspace{3mm} The word `{\em Upani\d{s}ad\/}' denotes {\em Brahma-Vidy\={a}} or Theosophy, inasmuch as its etymology is applicable to nothing else. The prefix `{\em upa}' means `near'; and nothing can be nearer than one's own inner Self, since all things are said to be more or less near with reference to the inner Self. The three meanings of the root `{\em sad\/}'\,---\,namely, to decay, to go or know, to destroy\,---\, are applicable to Theosophy, as the blessed {\em Suresvar\={a}c\={a}rya} has distinctly shown. Thus, Theosophy is called {\em Upani\d{s}ad} (1) because it leads {\em \={A}tman\/}, the Self, very \underline{near} {\em Brahman} who, in Himself, is devoid of duality, and thereby brings about the \underline{decay} of {\em avidy\={a}} or unwisdom and its effects; or (2) because it destroys that {\em avidy\={a}} or ignorance of the true nature of one's own Self which is the root of all evil, and gives one to \underline{understand} that the Supreme Being who is devoid of all duality is none other than one's own \underline{inner} Self; or (3) because it \underline{destroys} altogether all germs of outward activity by way of cutting up their root ({\em avidy\={a}\/}). As the means of acquiring the knowledge of Theosophy, the treatise is identified with Theosophy and is itself called {\em Upani\d{s}ad} as the plough is sometimes spoken of as a living.\\ {\small\sc Vidyaranya, Introduction p.~1, Taittiriya Upanishad} \vspace{3mm} {\em Vidy\={a}} (knowledge of {\em Brahman\/}) is called {\em Upani\d{s}ad} because, in the case of those who devote themselves to it, the (bonds of) conception, birth, decay, etc., become \underline{unloosed}, or because it \underline{destroys} (those bonds) altogether, or because it \underline{leads} (the devotee) very \underline{near} to {\em Brahman\/}, or because therein the Highest Good is \underline{seated}. As intended to produce this knowledge, the treatise is also called {\em Upani\d{s}ad\/}.\\ {\small\sc \'{S}ankara, Introduction p.~11, Taittiriya Upanishad} \vspace{3mm} Knowledge is called {\em upani\d{s}ad} by virtue of its association with this significance; It (viz.~knowledge) splits up, injures, or destroys the seeds of worldly existence such as ignorance etc., in the case of those seekers of emancipation who, after becoming detached from the desire for the seen and unseen objects, approach ({\em upa-sad\/}) the knowledge that is called {\em upani\d{s}ad} and\,\ldots\,who then deliberate on it with steadiness and certainty ({\em ni\/}). \ldots\ Or the knowledge of {\em Brahman} is called {\em upani\d{s}ad} because of its conformity to the idea of leading to {\em Brahman\/}, inasmuch as it makes the seekers after emancipation\,\ldots\,attain the supreme {\em Brahman\/}.\\ \ldots~knowledge\,---\,is also called {\em upani\d{s}ad} by virtue of its bearing the meaning (to loosen) of the root ({\em sad\/}), inasmuch as by leading to the result\,\ldots\,it weakens or loosens such multitude of miseries as living in the womb, birth, old age, etc., continually recurring in lives hereafter. {\sc Objection}: Is it not a fact that by the word {\em upani\d{s}ad\/}, the readers refer to the book in such sentences as: ``We read the {\em upani\d{s}ad\/},'' and ``We teach the {\em upani\d{s}ad\/}''\,? {\sc Answer}: Though, from this point of view, the meanings of the root {\em sad}\,---\,such as loosening the causes of the world, viz.~ignorance etc.\,---\,are inapplicable with regard to a mere book, and applicable to knowledge, still this is no fault, since the book, too, being meant for that purpose, can justifiably be denoted by that word. \ldots\ Thus with regard to knowledge, the word {\em upani\d{s}ad} is used in its primary sense, while with regard to the book it is used in a secondary sense.\\ \ldots\ the subject matter of the knowledge is\,\ldots\,a unique thing, viz.~the supreme {\em Brahman} that is the indwelling Self. And the purpose of this {\em upani\d{s}ad} is the absolute cessation of the transmigratory state, which consists in the attainment of {\em Brahman\/}.\\ {\small\sc \'{S}ankara, Introduction, Ka\d{t}ha Upanishad} \end{document} From athr at loc.gov Mon Dec 2 14:56:03 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 09:56:03 -0500 Subject: Hindi etc. in Karnataka Message-ID: <161227027208.23782.16345511345295540972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > > Tulu and Konkani have no scripts of their own. Tulu was once written in > Malayalam script and is now written in Kannada script, and Konkani is > written in Kannada script too (except by certain Christians - not all - > who use Latin script; only in Goa, Konkani is written in Nagari). > I believe that in Goa Konkani is written mostly in Roman script, and that that is the official script now that it is a scheduled language. Allen W. Thrasher The opinions expressed do not represent those of my employer. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Dec 2 09:13:09 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 10:13:09 +0100 Subject: Language enrollments Message-ID: <161227027204.23782.9592355620343396831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Brian Akers for supporting arguments! >In a study of 2,700 two- and four-year U.S. colleges the Modern >Language Association found students were studying languages in the >following numbers: Spanish - 606,286 French - 205,351 German - >96,263 Japanese - 44,723 Italian - 43,760 Chinese - 26,471 >Russian - 24,729 Arabic - 4,444. National enrollments for language >studies have dropped by 4% overall. > >The most noticeable shifts were in Chinese, which has gained by 36 percent >since the last survey, and Arabic by 28 percent. The general trend toward >Spanish has continued unabated, wooing students away from French and >German, which have both lost by 28%. Russian has fallen by a dizzying 45% >since the end of the Cold War. > I suspect that such numbers are also part of popular trends and not merely the result of government policies. The danger is that governments may take the "Vox populi vox dei" approach to funding and simply forget that the number of students produced within a given subject is not the only interesting criterium for investing in a subject. It is my opinion that South Asia - and particulartly India - for a number of reasons (political, economical, military and cultural) will be much more important to the global community in the years to come than what has been the case so far. It is also my impression that Western governments have not understood this yet, as exemplified by the message of our former prime minister Ms. Brundtland to the foremost Norwegian business leaders that India was "out" - they should go for China and Indonesia/Malaysia. (This is according to inside information and might be denied by politicos). Inevitably, such attitudes may hurt Indological studies, but from a political/economic point of view, they may also hurt "national interest". India is not "out", South Asia as a whole is on the way "in", one way or the other. A good understanding of South Asian societies is therefore essential to Western government, and that should be made clear to them. The Indological community thus has a "public relations" problem that should be discussed seriously. An exchange of ideas on this list would, in my opinion, not be a bad thing. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From srini at engin.umich.edu Mon Dec 2 17:09:04 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 12:09:04 -0500 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027213.23782.3825325253665066810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Thanks to Lawrence McCrea for his help with the word >>"du'scilka", which indeed is probably a variant of >>du'scikya, and with the derivation of "andolya". I >>would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to what >>sort of object "andolya" might refer to (judging from >>the context, it ought to be a desirable one) I somehow doubt that your context is musical, but want to mention that aandolya could refer to a svara or (musical) note. Aandolanam is also the name of a gamaka or musical ornamentation. -Srini. . From thompson at jlc.net Mon Dec 2 16:53:49 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 12:53:49 -0400 Subject: The word "upanishad" Message-ID: <161227027211.23782.6820406069727750081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'd had the same question Neb or no--and Steve Lindquist of UChicago >directed me to an etymology discussed in an article in French by Renou, >as u + pari + sad . . . I was hoping to get the citation from him before >he left for Benares . . . NB--does anyone know how to reach him? > >Thanks to previous postings for citations of which I'd not been aware on >this matter. If Anyone has the Renou citation, TYIA > >John Robert Gardner >University of Iowa John, The Renou article that you refer to is probably "'Connexion' en ve'dique, 'cause' en boudhique" [in C. Kunhan Raja Presentation Volume, Adyar Library 1946] -- but there's no proposed etymology: u + pari + sad [?]. Renou's article is very brief, and might best be read in conjunction with another brief note by him on ba'ndhu [Renou: "E'tudes ve'diques, 3. quelques termes du R.gveda" in Journal Asiatique, 241, 1953]. The important point, I think, of Renou's articles, as well as Falk's [etc.] cited by Witzel, is that the term upanis.ad refers, like bandhu nidaana, etc., to the system of correlations, homologies, equations, which dominates late Vedic hermeneutics. The passages cited by Falk, et al., demonstrate that the term upanis.ad, as it is used in the texts themselves, is *not* illuminated by the popular etymologies, such as "to sit down nearby" --cited by Martin. Check out Olivelle's new translation of the Upanis.ads, and his discussion of the term at pp.lii-lvi. upanis.ad is a technical term of Vedic hermeneutics. Best wishes, George From thompson at jlc.net Mon Dec 2 17:14:31 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 13:14:31 -0400 Subject: Gold-digging ants Message-ID: <161227027216.23782.1881962173078332379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A correction with regard to: "Das Tor zur Unterwelt: Mythologie und Kult des Termitenhuegels in der Schriftlichen und Muendlichen Tradition Indiens" [Wiesbaden, 1984]. It's author, Ditte Koenig, informs me that she is not at all a 'he', but bery much a 'she.' Mea culpa, George From athr at loc.gov Mon Dec 2 18:42:09 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 13:42:09 -0500 Subject: Hindi and language instruction Message-ID: <161227027214.23782.13151641217907584060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe the University of Pennsylvania has an established program and system for providing good language instruction without offering every language continuously or indeed having regular faculty knowing every language offered. Perhaps one of our Penn colleagues could confirm and explain. Allen Thrasher From athr at loc.gov Mon Dec 2 20:04:20 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 15:04:20 -0500 Subject: SALNAQ issues available Message-ID: <161227027218.23782.13803677695264854788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We have and extra copy (unbound) vol. 4, no. 1-4 (1967-68) of SALNAQ, or rather South Asian Library and Research Notes, available for any library with an exchange relationship with the Library of Congress. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Dec 3 00:34:17 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 16:34:17 -0800 Subject: The word "upanishad" Message-ID: <161227027228.23782.11922281365233113938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > George, do you have the bibliographic data on Olivelle's new translation? > Upanisads / translated from the original Sanskrit by Patrick Olivelle. Oxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 1996. Series title: The World's classics. From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Dec 2 21:40:47 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 16:40:47 -0500 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027225.23782.4379081935547891515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Girish Beeharry wrote: > I gather from the above that some kind of principal component analysis >has been done on the skulls and teeth of some fossils. Could anyone please >tell us what went into the analysis exactly (what are the axes)? This would require typing in quite a bit of material. Since most readers of this list would be associated with universities, may suggest a visit to your local library. > Also, I would be grateful if the mechanisms of 'cluster analysis and tree > diagrams' were explained in everyday language, please. I think the courses in > Indology don't include statistical techniques yet! :-) In cluster analysis, the aim is to study how the different variables or different subjects group together. The results can be displayed as a tree diagram. Closest neighbors are grouped together and joined to a single vertex. Something not more closely related to some compared to the others is left as an isolated twig. Then this process is repeated with each group obtained at this stage. This is the kind of diagram that is found in write-ups of the `African Eve' theory, for example. As to the theory behind how `closeness' is measured, I don't quite follow it myself. It may be worthwhile if Indology courses did require a course in understanding statistics. For example, a rank correlation test on the different attempts to arrange the books of Rgveda in a chronological sequence would be eye opening. P.S. to Joe: It was ok to post my e-mail, except that I wish I had told you run it thru a spell-checker :-). From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Dec 2 17:46:19 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 17:46:19 +0000 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference computing workshops Message-ID: <161227027209.23782.13616859453233267270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have arranged with the organisers of the World Sanskrit Conference (Bangalore 1997, January 3--9) to hold two special-interest workshops under the rubric of "Sanskrit and Computing". Time and space has been allocated for these meetings. The two workshops are: 1. On the Computer Sanskrit Extended character encoding: retrospect and future development. Required reading: ftp://ftp.bcc.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/software/iass_csx_documentation.zip This is also available as a PostScript file from http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html under the link for Conference Announcements. 2. On standards for the transliteration of Devanagari text using only ASCII characters. Required reading: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/t/t.html A PostScript file with all tables and characters has been made available at http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology/indology.html under the link for Conference Announcements. This second meeting will count as a "working group" under the aegis of the British Standards Institute which has a committee on transliteration, of which I am a member. The minutes of meeting 2 will go back to the BSI committee, and will -- we hope -- influence the creation of the British, and perhaps international, standard in this area. I shall start both of these sessions with a brief introduction (15 mins?), and then open the topic for general discussion. It would be good if these meetings were not too large in numbers, otherwise a proper discussion will be difficult. The meetings need not be more than an hour, I think. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From mgansten at sbbs.se Mon Dec 2 20:43:23 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 21:43:23 +0100 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027220.23782.13038065668134452979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srinivasan Pichumani writes: >I somehow doubt that your context is musical, but >want to mention that aandolya could refer to a svara >or (musical) note. For you and anyone else who may be scratching their heads, "andolya" turned out to be a misreading. The word in question should be "andolii", which in the context (astrological predictions of (royal) dignity) undoubtedly means "palanquin". Sorry for wasting people's time. The question mark at "vi.dvara" remains, however. Thanks to Charles Wikner and George Thompson for their extremely helpful comments on the word "upanishad". George's observation that: >the term upanis.ad refers, like bandhu nidaana, >etc., to the system of correlations, homologies, equations, which >dominates late Vedic hermeneutics -- definitely rings a bell. My half-remembered text was probably a review of one of the articles mentioned. Martin Gansten From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Dec 2 21:16:24 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 22:16:24 +0100 Subject: The word "upanishad" Message-ID: <161227027222.23782.2269690889866467157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >illuminated by the popular etymologies, such as "to sit down nearby" >--cited by Martin. Check out Olivelle's new translation of the Upanis.ads, >and his discussion of the term at pp.lii-lvi. upanis.ad is a technical >term of Vedic hermeneutics. George, do you have the bibliographic data on Olivelle's new translation? Lars Martin From l.m.fosse at internet.no Mon Dec 2 22:55:29 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 96 23:55:29 +0100 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027227.23782.10939165747273008469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In cluster analysis, the aim is to study how the different variables >or different subjects group together. The results can be displayed >as a tree diagram. Closest neighbors are grouped together >and joined to a single vertex. Something not more closely related to >some compared to the others is left as an isolated twig. Then this >process is repeated with each group obtained at this stage. This is the >kind of diagram that is found in write-ups of the `African Eve' theory, >for example. It should be added that there are several algorithms for cluster analysis that yield somewhat different results. It would be foolhardy simply to produce a cluster analysis and accept the result as authoritative, several attempts with different sets of criteria and different algorithms would have to be done. >It may be worthwhile if Indology courses did require a course in >understanding statistics. For example, a rank correlation test on >the different attempts to arrange the books of Rgveda in a >chronological sequence would be eye opening. This has been attempted by Walter Wuest, but the result is not quite as eye-opening as one would wish. Since I wrote my thesis on the use of statistics in Indology, I second the opinion that such methods are valuable, but they are fraught with a large number of theoretical and practical difficulties that have to be solved. If anything is to be gained by using statistical methods in the study of Sanskrit texts, that "anything" will be gained with a great deal of very hard, painstaking drudgery, not to mention the problem of communicating the result to one's non-statistical colleagues afterwards! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From joe at sfbooks.com Tue Dec 3 12:32:27 1996 From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 06:32:27 -0600 Subject: Proto-Siva Message-ID: <161227027241.23782.14670477010102902335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On a completely different note... I have been haunted for quite some time by the memory of a reference that got away. This reference analysed the evidence for a Siva cult at Harappa and basically shredded it. The piece de resistance was the "dancing Siva" figure on some of the seals; the author of this paper noted that everywhere else in Harappan sculpture, only women wore bracelets or had coiffures like the dancing figure on those seals. I realise that isn't much to go on, but wondered if anyone could help as long as we're talking about early Siva figures. In return... I don't *think* I've seen this reference come up, but apologies if I'm just being repetitive. Doris M. Srinivasan. 1983. "Vedic Rudra-Siva." Journal of the American Oriental Society 103: 543-56. I was impressed by it ten years ago but not five, and that's about all I remember. I think my disillusionment was just because it wasn't the cool paper about bracelets. Joe Bernstein From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Tue Dec 3 12:06:52 1996 From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 07:06:52 -0500 Subject: Harvard Outreach Lecture Message-ID: <161227027242.23782.16125677531252060723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please join if you are in the area. ---------------------------------------------------- Harvard University Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Outreach Committee Public Lecture --------------------------------- "INDIAN CULTURE IN THE CARIBBEAN" by Pandit Ramadheen Ramsamooj Director, Saraswati Mandiram, Dorchester, MA. Saturday, December 14, 3:00 PM Lecture Hall C, Harvard University Science Center, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA. The lecture is free and the public is cordially invited.. The hall is wheel-chair accessible. The lecture is cosponsored by India Association of Greater Boston. For any further information, please call (617)495-3295 or (617)864-5121. From joe at sfbooks.com Tue Dec 3 14:03:11 1996 From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 08:03:11 -0600 Subject: Ancient South Asian Archaeology (1/2) Message-ID: <161227027248.23782.4477112964354880807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: sci.archaeology.moderated, sci.archaeology,sci.lang) Usenet followups set. Posted and e-mailed. This is a fantastically long post split into two parts; if you would like to reply, please do read the part at the end with more details about the distribution. This is in minimal digest format. The subjects are: Part 1: 1. Invocation 2. References on Harappa 3. The Gangetic problem 4. The Archaeology of Ancient Indian Cities Part 2: 5. The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia 6. More references on the Gangetic civilisation 7. Distribution ------------------------------ Subject: 1. Invocation I'm close to finishing an FAQ for Usenet newsgroup news.groups, one of my bigger accomplishments in the past year on the nets. The thing that first brought me there was the proposal for sci.archaeology.moderated. And the things that brought me to the archaeology newsgroups were a set of questions I've had for ten years. What's become of Indian archaeology, and the particular archaeologists I admired, in the last ten years? Have the theories of cultural evolution I studied been completely forgotten? Is the stupendous challenge Harappa presents those theories yet resolved? I'm nearer answers to these questions than I have been in a decade, thanks to the debates on the origins of Sanskrit recently held on the RISA-L mailing list and on the newsgroups sci.archaeology and sci.lang. But that's ironic in two ways. First, I've done a fair chunk of the debating myself. With the notable exception of Edwin Bryant (for which reason he's cc'd), I've had to come up with much of the archaeological info in the discussion. Second, the origin of Sanskrit is really tangential to my interests. Obviously the question of who did what, where, when, is fundamental to history. I don't want to downgrade the concern with whether the Aryans did what to whomever... But there's an entirely different mystique available in the archaeology of ancient South Asia. It has to do with questions about how society works. In the first major work of social science I read, , Robert McCormick Adams presented a picture of the early civilisations as consistently following a single path into the world of emperors and slaves: into inequality. Without being particularly assertive about causes, he described processes by which equals became inequal. He, and those who elaborated and disputed his views in later years, offered me a perspective I badly needed to make sense of the world: that society was a historical artifact. A year later, I tried to make sense of inequality by studying the history of India. This led me to an effort to apply Adams' theories and similar ones to that history, to the civilisation of the Ganga valley. Now, it's a commonplace among people who talk about "urban origins" or "state origins" - this study of the birth of inequalities - to distinguish between "pristine" or "primary" beginnings and "secondary" ones. And very exactingly, at that. The typical list of "pristine" civilisations runs something like this: Mesopotamia; maybe Egypt and Harappa; China; Mexico/Guatemala; Peru Philip Kohl has made enough of a case for the Oxus valley that I needn't repeat it here. But we continue to take it for granted that civilisation elsewhere has obvious origins. Students of India, however, don't. The reigning orthodoxy hasn't admitted the possibility of urban continuity between the Indus valley and the Ganga, and thus has had to argue the case for the latter as "pristine". Typically, the rise of states and cities has been dated to something like 800 - 600 BC, and attributed to the invading "Aryans" and their iron tools which enabled the exploitation of the Ganga valley. Now, there's just one oddity about this. Sanskrit literature - Aryan literature - reaches back, by most accounts, long before these foundations. If the standard account is true, then in South Asia, and South Asia *alone*, we have a textual tradition spanning the entire process of the urban revolution. It's as if we had books from Gilgamesh's time, or from the Shang emperors'. Isn't that even a little interesting? I eventually concluded that the standard account wasn't true, and that we don't really have the founders' grandparents' works. But in the course of reaching that conclusion - which remains a disputed one, to say the least - I found a still more bizarre conundrum in the archaeology of South Asia. Above, I've emphasised the rise of inequality, rather than the rise of (say) literature or law, in my descriptions of early civilisations. That's because it's practically a given in the archaeological and anthropological literature that civilisation *means* inequality. Unequal malnutrition in children is a standard indicator, for example. It's absent only in modern Scandinavia. And, as it turns out, Harappa. Harappa used to be stereotyped as a caste-ridden society. But during the 1970s and 1980s, that stereotype among many others was exploded. Scholars started noticing that there was something *odd* about the continued failure to find royal tombs. Then, that there wasn't much sign of social differentiation in grave goods generally. For that matter, a meticulous re-analysis of the records of digs at Mohenjo-daro showed every sign of showing that gold and other presumed valuables were distributed *randomly* among the dwellings there. Civilisation without inequality. Not in the workers' paradise, but at the very beginning. Not proven, no - but surely the most serious test case yet. And yet all we can find to talk about is the origins of Sanskrit? Well, there's reasons for that. For one thing, obviously, who wrote the texts and when is crucial at least to the issue of Gilgamesh's hymns, and probably also to that of equality at Harappa. So the origins of Sanskrit, while tangential, is hardly trivial to my interests. For another, we're short staffed. I know of at most one or two people on Usenet who've read the Harappan site reports: Ben Diebold, perhaps, though for whatever reason he doesn't participate in these debates; and Moin Ansari, also cc'd, who's studied them a lot more than I have but who hasn't been free lately. As for the later reports on the Iron Age, unless Mr. Bryant has read them, I seem to be alone on the nets. And the millennium between the two? I just don't know. So there isn't much room for discussion. This post has three purposes, then. The first is to increase the audience. Surely I can't be the only person who thinks these issues matter? who wants to find out about them, and maybe do some research for it? The second is to recruit my replacements. Don't any of you reading this have any colleagues who can speak to these issues, archaeology professors or graduate students familiar with South Asia? It's kind of sad that Mr. Ansari and I, both amateurs, are representing their field to the nets. My third purpose is to apologise. In the Usenet post I'm following up to, I offered to provide information as current as I can on early rice and iron in India, and on 2nd millennium BC geography and cultures of northern India and Pakistan. It turns out I haven't the time for that; the real world must reimpose itself eventually, and the book I'm working on has nothing to do with archaeology. I intend to keep participating in discussions, but I can't offer any more than my memories and what research I've already done for at least a month. And even then, I'll have no library access to many of the references given so far or below. (Don't even ask about inter-library loan through the Chicago Public Library!) So here's something of a consolation offer. This post attempts, besides the cheerleading above, to do the following: collect some basic, current references on the topics; and review two of these in detail, one of which may well be unfamiliar. Hope it's worth it. ------------------------------ Subject: 2. References on Harappa I won't pretend I've suddenly become the expert on this civilisation. Moreover, there doesn't appear to be a recent full-scale synthesis I'm prepared to advertise. But for the sake of completeness, I should point out the following references: Meadow, Richard H., ed. 1991. Harappa Excavations 1986-1990:JA Multidisciplinary Approach to Third Millennium Urbanism. Monographs in World Archaeology No. 3. Prehistory Press. Madison, WI. Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark. 1991a. "The Indus Valley Tradition of Pakistan and Western India." Journal of World Prehistory. 5:4:331-385. These are from Ben Diebold's post, Message-ID <4bul5h$2v6 at news.ycc.yale.edu>, December 28, 1995. To all intents and purposes, the Meadow appears to be the most current major work, the current synthesis, though it's mainly an interim site report. I haven't examined it much at all, except for the Hemphill paper previously discussed on these fora. Kenoyer's paper, which I've glanced through but not read, shows every sign of being a very solid survey, and dense with references, as befits the journal in which it appeared. Mr. Diebold's post had a number of other references in it, and Moin Ansari's bibliographic post, Message-ID <4ct802$kfb at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, of January 9, 1996 has quite a few more. I will gladly e-mail these to anyone who can't get them via DejaNews, as well as my own prior bibliographic posting, Message-ID I think, previously on sci.archaeology.moderated and INDOLOGY. I did notice in my glances at the Meadow book that there seem to be, after all, some signs of social stratification at Harappa; but I have no idea how solidly founded these are, nor whether they in fact mean what they seemed to at first glance. To the best of my knowledge, the question remains open. In any event, the following paper title, found in one of the books reviewed below, piques my interest considerably: Possehl, Gregory L. 1991. "Revolution in the urban revolution: the emergence of Harappan urbanism." Annual Review of Anthropology. 19: 261-82. ------------------------------ Subject: 3. The Gangetic problem I don't mean to imply by my remarks above that it's perfectly obvious to everyone how urban origins theories and standard accounts of Gangetic urbanism conflict. Indeed, my position is not shared by Romila Thapar, whose 1984 book remains the best synthetic study of the first millennium I've seen. It was also the first study to join the two subjects in a powerful and effective way. Thapar didn't just apply the theories to her context; she also solved, to my mind quite effectively, theoretical problems that had remained open in the transition she titled her book after. Although her focus is primarily that of a historian, she is also the best-informed historian now working in India as far as archaeology is concerned. For an elementary discussion of ancient India, the standard recommendation of A. L. Basham's probably sounds goofy, but is in fact essentially sound (I believe there's an early 1980s revision); but anyone who has enough Sanskrit terms to read it will benefit greatly from Thapar's analysis. In her wake, lots of other works appeared. I've previously referred to those I'd seen in my 1986-87 research. It turns out others were being published at the same time, notably (going by later citations; I still haven't seen these): Lal, Makkhan. 1987. "The stages of human colonisation in the Ganga-Yamuna Doab: archaeological evidence." South Asian Studies. 3: 25-32. Erdosy, George. 1987. "Early historic cities of Northern India." South Asian Studies. 3: 1-23. idem. 1989. "Ethnicity in the Rigveda and its bearing on the question of Indo- European origins." South Asian Studies. 5: 35-47. Additional references, that I have seen, include: Chakrabarti, Dilip K. 1988. Theoretical Issues in Indian Archaeology. New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal. This has separate chapters on diffusion; literature and archaeology; geography; cultural evolution; agriculture; metallurgy; and trade. I expect to find it of great value; see below for much more on Chakrabarti. R. K. Varma. 1989. "Pre-Agricultural Mesolithic Society of the Ganga Valley." Old Problems and New Perspectives in the Archaeology of South Asia, edited by J.M.Kenoyer, Wisconsin Archaeological Reports Vol 2, 1989. This is most recent paper I was familiar with on early settlement of the Ganga (having heard the paper given in 1986). At the same conference and in the same volume, by the way, the paper I've remembered or misremembered as showing that rice caused the fall of Harappa: Richard Meadow. 1989. "Continuity and Change in the Agriculture of the Greater Indus Valley." Ibid. Anyway. What seems clear from the books I *have* looked at is that the second millennium BC, the crucial period whose chronology, ethnic movements, settlement hierarchies, and who-knows-what-else will be decisive in the judgement as to whether Gangetic urbanism is in fact "pristine" - that millennium remains not only too little researched and still less published, but that little is itself not adequately synthesised in anything more recent than the Allchins' 1982 book, it appears. (That book is, however, a fine guide.) In particular, the edited by A. Ghosh, which I've previously mentioned, is good but not nearly enough. It proves to be current only to the late 1970s though published in 1989, and its organisation makes it difficult to pull together views of periods or regions as pottery-typed cultures are privileged. There is a solution, though. It involves the recent book on Gangetic urbanism you probably *haven't* heard of: Dilip Chakrabarti's . ------------------------------ Subject: 4. The Archaeology of Ancient Indian Cities A cursory review. This is an example of why I wish there were a real South Asian archaeologist on the nets. I'm by no means equipped to give this book a full review with appropriate scholarly approvals, but I'm about as qualified as anyone available to explain why all the libraries out there that've bought the other book I'm reviewing really should buy this one too. Sigh... As it is, while a variety of local libraries here in Chicago have Allchin's new book (reviewed below), this one turned up only on a shelf-reading at Loyola. Not Northwestern! It's unfortunate, because while I'd have to give the Allchin book a slight edge for the most cash-strapped library, Chakrabarti's is much better for some purposes, and the two complement each other well. Chakrabarti, Dilip K. 1995. The Archaeology of Ancient Indian Cities. Delhi (and Bombay, Calcutta, Madras): Oxford. ISBN 0 19 563472 1. This book was written 1992-93, on the basis (usually not readily detected) of a 1972-73 dissertation at the University of Calcutta. Chakrabarti went on from that dissertation to become a foremost opponent of diffusionist arguments in South Asian archaeology (his explanations for the native origin of iron are the standard ones still), based usually on exacting knowledge of specific technologies, geographies, or whatever else was germane. Here he comes full circle. Its contents: I. Introduction This is a ten-page review of theoretical issues, in which Chakrabarti contrasts Gordon Childe with Adams, discusses a synthesis of sorts which he found in Renfrew (though it derives from the work of Kent Flannery, I gather), and finally says that although he intends to keep these considerations in mind, his paramount definition for an urban setting is literacy. II. Background and Origin of the Indus Civilization Thirty-five pages of what Chakrabarti does over and over in this book, namely an exhaustive review of available evidence with copious references, are followed by a few pages in which he offers his own views on causation. This is the chapter I read most closely, and the best place for me to indicate one reason I'm biased in Chakrabarti's favour: he writes clear, vigorous English, and calls a spade a spade. He is trenchant in condemning careless work or thought, and clear in his praise for those who merit it. He makes his own biases plain - it's clear that he has no patience with the idea of Mesopotamian trade as a causative factor in Harappan urbanism - and I'm not going to say he's right every time. But he quotes generously from those he disputes, and summarises their results concisely but fully. Bibliography in South Asian archaeology is a work of suffering, in my experience. What Chakrabarti does in this chapter, and throughout the book, is gather all the references together, and summarise them. I know of no other book which provides such full access to the archaeological literature of early South Asian urbanism between two covers, and it's complete with a (usually fair) critique. It remains to get through the rest of the table of contents, and back this up... III. Harappan Settlements This time, it's 53 pages of evidence and 18 of conclusions. The evidence is surveyed by region, with the major sites described at length and surface surveys and the like duly noted: North Afghanistan and Baluchistan; Sind; Cholistan; Western Panjab; Rajasthan, Haryana, East Panjab and U.P.; Kutch, Kathiawar and Mainland Gujarat. The conclusions discuss site distribution and size; chronology; planning; and the "social framework" (briefly!). IV. Prelude to Early Historic Urban Growth The first dozen pages discuss the decline of Harappa; I am embarrassed to have to admit that I've forgotten his proposal, but again he begins with a review of the evidence. Next follow 23 pages on the non-Harappan neolithic and chalcolithic cultures of the rest of the subcontinent. Interestingly, in the conclusion which follows, while he generally disdains trade as a cause, here he attributes the flowering of these cultures throughout this region around 2000 BC to trade with Harappa. V. Early Historical Cities And here they all are... I did notice one glaring omission. Atranjikhera, whose excavation report I've previously referenced, gets only one paragraph. This is an absurdity, given that that site is the most extensively published and one of the most extensively excavated since World War II in north India; I can only think the author took for granted that his readers would already have a copy of the report. Otherwise, I could only think "Had this only existed when I started..." This time the review of the evidence is 72 pages, ranging from the Northwest Frontier to Tamil Nadu and Assam, followed by a discussion of the growth of urban civilisation, of town size and planning (including textual discussion, unlike the rest of the book), and of the character of the cities. VI. Problems and Perspectives A summary, focused particularly on the shortcomings of Indian archaeology (a standard jeremiad) and also on causes of Gangetic urbanism. This book didn't exist when I did my research. It does now. I recommend it very strongly. end part 1 Joe Bernstein -- Joe Bernstein, writer, banker, bookseller joe at sfbooks.com speaking for myself alone http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/ But...co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now back under discussion in news.groups! From joe at sfbooks.com Tue Dec 3 14:04:19 1996 From: joe at sfbooks.com (joe at sfbooks.com) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 08:04:19 -0600 Subject: Ancient South Asian Archaeology (2/2) Message-ID: <161227027246.23782.13355181755790347320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: sci.archaeology.moderated, sci.archaeology,sci.lang) Usenet followups set. Posted and e-mailed. This is a fantastically long post split into two parts; if you would like to reply, please do read the part at the end with more details about the distribution. This is in minimal digest format. The subjects are: Part 1: 1. Invocation 2. References on Harappa 3. The Gangetic problem 4. The Archaeology of Ancient Indian Cities Part 2: 5. The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia 6. More references on the Gangetic civilisation 7. Distribution ------------------------------ Subject: 5. The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia A slightly less cursory review. If you're at all interested in the subject, you've probably heard of this book already. I'm going to develop a critique here, therefore, more fully than in the case of Chakrabarti's book. (Also, because I had more time in the library where I examined this one...) Allchin, F. R. 1995. The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia: The Emergence of Cities and States. With contributions from George Erdosy, R. A. E. Coningham, D. K. Chakrabarti and Bridget Allchin. Cambridge (and New York, Melbourne): Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0 521 37547 9 (hardcover) or 0 521 37695 5 (paper). Note that George Erdosy has changed his name to Muhammad Usman Erdosy. Allchin did not require unanimity of his contributors, nor did he attempt the same sort of magisterial survey in his own chapters which he and his wife accomplished in their earlier book. The result is a strangely patchy work. I suppose it is, at the moment, the best source on early Gangetic civilisation's archaeology, but it's far from the grand synthesis I'd hoped for. Contents: PART I The background I. The archaeology of early historic South Asia - 7 pp. The obligatory history and jeremiad. II. The environmental context (Bridget Allchin) - 16 pp. An excellent treatment for the user, though I haven't the background to evaluate the scientific accuracy. She moves region by region, and in each region describes the specific geographic context of at least the most important urban sites. III. The end of Harappan urbanism and its legacy - 15 pp. There is a fairly impressionistic review by region, covering the archaeology of essentially the whole second millennium BC. (This is why I prefer Chakrabarti's for research purposes!) Allchin's basic thesis is that there was a major decline, but it turned around before everyone died; then some centuries later there was another decline, this time wiping out cultures everywhere but the Punjab; he blames the former largely on tectonic and environmental causes, and the latter on a claim that the rains must have diminished sharply, since nearby coastal cultures also declined at the end of the second millennium. IV. Language, culture and the concept of ethnicity - 13 pp. This is the book's treatment of the Aryans' arrival in the Punjab. My notes read, "Appallingly vague and speculative." He argues that the Aryans, who might have arrived in waves, were in each case a minority taking advantage of disorder and decline to conquer and then acculturate the population; thus he argues that Sanskrit came from elsewhere but the early Aryans (the acculturated descendants) were indigenous. V. Dark Age or continuum? An archaeological analysis of the second emergence of urbanism in South Asia (R. A. E. Coningham) - 19 pp. Using a sample of about a dozen second millennium sites from all over the subcontinent, and a list of traits of urban society similar to Childe's but more sophisticated, Coningham argues that most of these traits were found someplace or other sometime during the millennium, so it wasn't a Dark Age. The implication that Gangetic urbanism didn't come out of nowhere is not explicitly defended, and it's a good thing, as a given trait might be found at only two sites at opposite ends of the subcontinent. Another impression I left with was that what urbanism there was in the second millennium was practically anywhere *but* the Ganga valley. PART II The rise of cities and states VI. The prelude to urbanism: ethnicity and the rise of Late Vedic chiefdoms (George Erdosy) - 24 pp. This chapter covers only the Ganga valley, for the first half of the first millennium BC. There's a brief note on chronology, but the rest of the topical survey which dominates the chapter is excellent, treating settlement patterns, material culture, and textual evidence on early politics, in order. Erdosy then proceeds to argue that "Aryan-ness", at least in this region (but by implication also elsewhere) was no ethnic trait but an ideological one, which fits in with his general argument that later Vedic society was an authority-based chiefdom. I was very unimpressed with Erdosy's first publications, in the middle 1980s, and am surprised to find myself saying this, but this is the best chapter in the book. That said, I don't agree with it at a fairly basic level. Erdosy accepts, as I never have, the argument that the state is represented archaeologically by a four- level central place hierarchy. He therefore is obligated to find no states in the later Vedic texts, whose archaeological correlates lack such a settlement hierarchy. My own interest has always focused on the process through the lens of the city, and I'm convinced from his own and other settlement surveys that there were indeed central places in this era which I would take as the nuclei of states. In other words, the fact that he later develops a very short chronology for urbanism fails to persuade me. VII. City states of North India and Pakistan at the time of the Buddha (George Erdosy) - 24 pp. The topical survey in this chapter doesn't equal the prior one but is quite good, proceeding through chronology, settlement patterns, urban planning, economics, and then literary discussions of cities and states. The conclusion, which essentially says the constant warfare among the latter looks like a conceivable cause for the urban/state process, is less impressive. In this chapter, the effort towards a short chronology gathers much force. Erdosy accepts arguments from one Bechert that the Buddha's mahaparinirvana really occurred in 368, not 486. He also applies a very solid-looking set of radiocarbon dates to demonstrate not that Northern Black Polished Ware appears in 400 BC (as at first appears) but rather, and probably correctly from what I know of the radiocarbon record, around 550 BC. (At least at most sites.) In turn, since much of the evidence we have for truly urban character is tied to the NBP ware and not even its beginning, he concludes that true urbanism begins perhaps 400 BC. I shouldn't judge in ignorance, but this looks suspect to me on a few grounds. First of all, I haven't seen Bechert's arguments yet, and always found the date of 486 pretty persuasive! Beyond that, Erdosy makes light of the very old stupas (he mentions Vaisali but not Sravasti and Kapilavastu as being probably as old as the parinirvana), while I found those site reports convincing. I will need to examine the radiocarbon dates myself before I really believe that his "early NBP" sites represent the ware's earliest stages. And, with Paul Wheatley, I've generally preferred to define urbanism in relation to central places, not urban character. That said. These two chapters are excellent complements to Chakrabarti's site-by-site treatment, and the picture they paint of a rather late development, while unpersuasive to me, is hardly a trivially researched one. VIII. Early cities and states beyond the Ganges Valley - 29 pp. This is a detailed site-by-site survey across the first millennium (but mainly its second half) and the rest of the subcontinent. Allchin advances few major arguments and relies quite heavily on pottery-typed cultures. If any settlement surveys are available to him, he doesn't mention them as best I recall. IX. The rise of cities in Sri Lanka (R. A. E. Coningham and F. R. Allchin) - 33 pp. Yes, I'm serious: this topic gets more pages than any of the above chapters. They're devoted mostly to the authors' current excavations at Anuradhapura, with some discussion of textual evidence and some of other sites. PART III The Mauryan empire and its aftermath X. The Maurya state and empire - 35 pp. Here, finally, we get settlement hierarchies, as well as extensive discussion of the ancient world's megalopolis, Pataliputra. There's also a lot about the textual evidence of the , which Allchin (like most scholars) accepts as essentially a genuine 4th-3rd century BC record. Since that document implies a stupendously developed country where (per Erdosy) three centuries earlier there were neither cities nor states, I tend to accept the minority view that it was written much later. Ah, well. In any event, there are also discussions of early writing and coinage on the subcontinent, and on what archaeology and the tell us of weights and measures. XI. Mauryan architecture and art - 52 pp. (with many illustrations) Being no art historian, I'm not qualified to say much about this chapter, except that it has lots of nice pictures :-). The survey appears to be quite comprehensive. Unlike the rest of the book, Allchin here favours early dates consistently and also likes diffusionist arguments. XII. Post-Mauryan states of mainland South Asia (c. BC 185 - AD 320) (D. K. Chakrabarti) - 53 pp. Yes, that's right, that's the crowning joke of this whole awkward situation where two books are required for the job of one. In case my strictures (which, it must be obvious, are moved to some extent at least by simple disagreements) had persuaded you that Allchin's book was dispensable, the kicker is, that it contains the last chapter of Chakrabarti's! Chakrabarti actually begins here with a fairly thorough review of the political history; there follows his standard site-by-site review of the evidence, which dominates the chapter. Some pages at the end take up writing, coinage, architecture, and art; unlike the site-by-site review, these are almost devoid of references, and I find myself wondering whether they were required burdens. PART IV. Conclusion XIII. The emergence of cities and states: concluding synthesis If I understand correctly, Allchin's synthesis of the uncomfortable distance between himself and Erdosy is as follows: The Aryans, as an ethnic group, *did* win conquests in the Punjab, thereafter acculturating the people there, whence their ideology and its language spread to the rest of South Asia. I find myself recalling my sarcasm in my 1987 paper: "Well, Sanskrit did have an ancient grammatical tradition that might have appealed." ------------------------------ Subject: 6. More references on the Gangetic civilisation This is basically a miscellany, to fulfill past promises and make a few notes before I go back to non-research mode. First of all, Dilip Chakrabarti has been *very* prolific relatively recently, and the books in question include a couple for which I previously failed to give cites plus one which is evidently the current reference on early iron in India: Chakrabarti, Dilip K. 1993. Archaeology of Eastern India. New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal. This, his book about West Bengal, turns out to be a site survey on the Chota Nagpur plateau and an adjoining district in Bengal. Sorry for the mixup. idem. 1990. The External Trade of the Indus Civilization. New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal. Haven't seen it. idem. 1992. The Early Use of Iron in India. Delhi: Oxford. Haven't seen it. idem. 1992. Ancient Bangladesh. Delhi: Oxford. A full survey of minimal material. I think Erdosy's recent book is already in the RISA-L bibliography (and if you haven't yet, please DO check out the debate and bibliography c/o it IS worth it!) - anyway, I think it's already in there, but just in case: Erdosy, George, editor. 1995. Language, Material Culture, and Ethnicity: the Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia. Berlin: W. de Gruyter. Finally, to make up for aiming D. K. Chakrabarti at Steve Whittet's concerns for sea trade, here are a couple of references which between them make a pretty good case for direct contact between Gujarat and Africa (but, Mr. Whittet, please *read* them before citing...): Possehl, Gregory L. 1987. "African Millets in South Asian Prehistory." Studies in the Archaeology of India and Pakistan, edited by Jerome Jacobson. New Delhi (and Bombay, Calcutta): Oxford & IBH. Singh, H. 1982. History and Archaeology of Black-and-Red Ware (Chalcolithic Period). Delhi: Sundeep Prakashan. ------------------------------ Subject: 7. Distribution First of all, Edwin Bryant and Moin Ansari are cc'd for reasons already indicated. I hope they'll forgive me the size of this thing. I hope they'll show up on Usenet or at least INDOLOGY to discuss these topics, but whatever. Mr. Ansari is also a moderator of soc.culture.pakistan.history, and Mr. Bryant subscribes to RISA-L; I have no objections to redistribution of any or all of these sections and would actually, of course, be flattered if they're worth it. I'm posting this to the INDOLOGY mailing list. Please note that this is a closed list: as best I understand it, non-subscribers can't post. I recommend contacting the owner if you wish to find a way around this. My apologies to any subscribers who don't want this much about the subject, but hey, at least it's not about Hindi... I should think the easiest way to discuss this is to use Usenet. I've been hesitant to forward to INDOLOGY anything like the full context of the arguments there, which is why I wind up making mega-posts like this. The Usenet debate to date does not merit archiving in the way the RISA-L debate did, but it began November 17 and has all (to the best of my knowledge) been posted to sci.archaeology, so it should be recoverable via Dejanews despite the proliferation of threads. This is posted to sci.archaeology.moderated because it seems to fit, and also to sci.archaeology and sci.lang because those are where most of the discussion thus far has been. I have, however, *removed* sci.lang from followups, in the considered opinion that this document really doesn't say much about linguistics and there are existing threads which are better for use to discuss that study. I'm only cross-posting this one there as a courtesy which I hope is not misguided. Please note that sci.archaeology.moderated is in the followups. If you wish to follow up to this post, please consider whether it's likely to pass the moderation filter; in particular, I'd recommend including some references; or else remove sci.archaeology.moderated from the list of newsgroups. Have fun with this, folks! Joe Bernstein -- Joe Bernstein, writer, banker, bookseller joe at sfbooks.com speaking for myself alone http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/ But...co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now back under discussion in news.groups! From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Tue Dec 3 16:12:18 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 08:12:18 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027251.23782.7819644194930176512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 3, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, "South Asia - and particularly India - for a number of reasons (political, economical, military and cultural) will be much more important to the global community in the years to come than what has been the case so far." While I, and I'm sure everyone on this list share Mr. Fosse's hopes that India will have a bright future, my mutual fund broker, far less optimistic, advises me not to put my money on it. Yet. But, in any case, this was not the "pragmatic service" I had in mind. Nor was it Frank Conlon's, I think. The lesson learned by government (Nixon, Reagan ... ) from the (irrational, paranoid defense) funding of the 50's and 60's was that academics are not the best group to fund even if America's interests DO lie in SA. Clinton sent the Secretary of Commerce there with groups of US businessmen. The language most important for these pragmatic concerns is C++. I agree with Fosse's conclusions, though. But outside the university, I think our arguments would be better made to the INDIAN government, to US industries with significant involvements and image to protect in India, and to such charitable agencies as the Ford Foundation. Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue Dec 3 19:11:40 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 09:11:40 -1000 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027256.23782.10519555949719805323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: > >Can somebody provide me with more information and/or reference on the > >custom of painting the goat's fur before sacrifice? It seems to be use > >in Nepal, and somewhere else?? > >For an example view http://www.webart.com/asianart/mustang/goats.html > > In the mountains of northern Pakistan, such goats have a patch of pink dye > on them. I asked why it was done and was told only that it identified the > goats to be sacrificed. > > Of course, if it has non-Islamic connotations, people might not know about > them, or might not feel like discussing them. I don't know the significance of it, but I've seen goats with a spot of pink dye all the way from Maharashtra to Tamil Nadu (the region I'm most familiar with). They were not elaborately painted like the Nepal goats; they just had a patch of pink dye. FYI, Raja. From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue Dec 3 10:03:05 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 10:03:05 +0000 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027234.23782.4598183035346395134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Thanks for the responses. Vidhyanath Rao wrote: >In cluster analysis, the aim is to study how the different variables >or different subjects group together. The results can be displayed >as a tree diagram. Closest neighbors are grouped together >and joined to a single vertex. Something not more closely related to >some compared to the others is left as an isolated twig. Then this >process is repeated with each group obtained at this stage. This is the >kind of diagram that is found in write-ups of the `African Eve' theory, >for example. >As to the theory behind how `closeness' is measured, I don't quite >follow it myself. Thanks for the above explanation. I too have difficulty in understanding how to 'measure' the 'distance' between 'neighbours': I don't understand how to say when subjects and variables are close enough. However, this is the heart of the whole analysis. >It may be worthwhile if Indology courses did require a course in >understanding statistics. For example, a rank correlation test on >the different attempts to arrange the books of Rgveda in a >chronological sequence would be eye opening. May be Indologist might consider talking to mathematicians! :-) Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >It should be added that there are several algorithms for cluster analysis >that yield somewhat different results. It would be foolhardy simply to >produce a cluster analysis and accept the result as authoritative, several >attempts with different sets of criteria and different algorithms would have >to be done. This adds another item to the list of 'I don't understand'; which algorithms are more 'objective'? Has non-parametric statistics (eg maximum likelihood) been used in this area? Bye, Girish Beeharry From svadchi at agf.fr Tue Dec 3 09:22:10 1996 From: svadchi at agf.fr (Jean-Claude Svadchii) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 10:22:10 +0100 Subject: Proto-Siva Message-ID: <161227027232.23782.11858748930102140499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although being no specialist, I should like to cite some elements I read in French about Siva and its origins. I'd like first to quote the Rudra definition given by Dumezil in 'Mythe et Epopee II' (pp 86-87 of the 1986-edition). I am sorry to give it in French, but every word having been very carefully chosen by Dumezil, a faithful translation would require a lot of time from me : 'Par ce role, il (ViSNu) est bien l'antithese du Rudra vedique dont l'etude attentive d'Ernst Arbman (Rudra, Untersuchungen zum altindischen Glauben und Kultus, 1922) a degage les traits : Rudra est le patron de tout ce qui n'a pas encore ete domestique par l'homme ou la societe, donc le maitre a la fois des chances et des risques que recelent les choses brutes de l'immense empire inexploite qui enserre les petits habitats des hommes, leurs etroits chemins, leurs vulnerables carrefours; le maitre de la brousse, avec son peuplement anormal aussi bien d'ascetes que de brigands, prolongement du chaos en marge et parfois meme au coeur des terres civilisees, avec ses monstres, ses myriades de vegetaux, les puissances d'empoisonnement et de guerison qu'elle tient en reserve; le maitre, plus generalement, de ce qui, a toute heure et en toute circonstance de la vie, est l'homologue de la brousse, de tout ce dont les hommes vont se servir mais dont ils ne se sont pas encore servis et qui contient le mystere et l'ambiguite du non-commence : la vaisselle ou le linge neuf, le repas qui n'est que prepare, l'entreprise qui n'est que projetee. Tel parait avoir ete a ses debuts ce Rudra dont le nom s'explique au mieux par le radical du latin rudis 'brut, non degrossi', et qui se morcelle volontiers en une infinite de RudrAH attaches chacun a tel chemin, a tel objet, etc... Dissimule dans le bois ou sur la montagne, il est a la fois le persecuteur dont la fleche meurtriere arrive on ne sait d'ou et le connaisseur des simples, des herbes qui detruisent les maladies. Non pas mauvais, mais moralement neutre, a la fois puissant et indetermine. Si ces signalements de ViSNu et de Rudra valent pour les textes vediques, il est probable que, dans les temps plus anciens, pendant et avant les migrations qui conduisirent des bandes d'Indo-Europeens jusqu'aux Cinq Rivieres, les deux divinites ainsi comprises etaient plus importantes encore : Ind(a)ra donnait la victoire aux conquerants, mais c'etait ViSNu qui lui ouvrait et, a travers lui, leur ouvrait le chemin a travers le domaine inconnu, barbare ou, a cote des demons, residait pourtant deja un dieu de leur groupe, l'inquietant, le necessaire Rudra.' Pp 77-116, Dumezil explores the oppositions between ViSNu and Rudra, Odhinn and Thorr, and the comparison between Starkadhr and Zizupala. Pp 88-89, Dumezil mentions the rudrian side of Odhinn. In 'La Religion Romaine Archaique' (pp 406-7 of the 1st ed - 1966), Dumezil gives a shorter definition of Rudra, showing the functional relationship between Faunus and Rudra, although Rudra's functions are more numerous and diversified than Faunus' ones. Dumezil shows also that the functions of the Italian goddess Feronia are similar to the set of functions obtained by removing from Rudra's definition the dangerous and malevolent elements. In 1982, Jacques Scheuer published in Paris an excellent study on 'Shiva dans la MahAbhArata', his perspective and method being similar to Biardeau's. His conclusion doesn't contradict the Dumezilian description for Vedic times, but is more substantial, centering itself on the MahAbhArata and on the contemporary Hindu world. In 1981, Joel H. Grisward published in Paris another excellent study on the 'Archeologie de l'Epopee Medievale' dedicated to some epic cycles of the Middle Ages, above all the 'cycle des Narbonnais', probably inherited from the Wisigoths. Joel H. Grisward, a follower of Dumezil, discovered a considerable Indo-european legacy including parallels with the YayAti myth. Pp 185 to 204 are dedicated to 'Aimer le chetif', who was condemned by a curse to live out of the cities, in the wilderness, without land, bed or shelter, in the wind and storm, a storm and night knight, with a small troop of savage fellows equipped with bored black shields and hauberks rusty from the rain - warriors, but also highwaymen and bandits (in Italian : ladri, rubatori, bestemiatori, giugatori, assassini). Quite the type of the indo-european Maennerbuende, the Rudras under the leadership of the disquieting Rudra. Dumezil opposed that Rudra warrior-type to the Indra one. In the Iranian list of 6 arch-daemons opposed to the 6 Amesha Spentas, Dumezil noticed for example that the second function arch-daemons are Indra and Saurva, Saurva's name corresponding to the Vedic Zarva, an aspect of Rudra. I don't remember Dumezil having explained the difference between his much broader Rudra definition in Mythe et Epopee II and this military specialization. In my opinion, there seems to be an application of Rudra's structural definition to the more limited second-function (war) field. We know that the same original pattern can be applied in different circumstances to varied fields. Faunus, Feronia, Aimer le chetif, Saurva, Rudra are examples of it. In conclusion, the proto-Shiva seems to have a rich lineage. I hope this helps. Jean-Claude Svadchii svadchi at agf.fr From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Tue Dec 3 06:54:47 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 12:24:47 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit Computer Dictionary Message-ID: <161227027230.23782.12519770851412129709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am new to this list so let me give a short introduction of myself. My name is Swami Vishvarupananda, and I am working on a long term project on Shakta Philosophy, particularly Shriyantra and Shri Vidya. I am also fascinated by Kashmir Shaivaism and its striking parallels to Shri Vidya. I am also interested in the general study of Hindu Scriptures. At present I would be happy if anyone could tell me where I can find a computer dictionary for Sanskrit-English and possibly also English-Sanskrit. I have found an online Sanskrit Dictionary at http://reality.sgi.com/employees/atul/sanskrit/dict/search.html but what I am really searching for is a dictionary I can install on my PC (Pentium running Windows 95). Thanks, Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bpj at netg.se Tue Dec 3 10:31:30 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 12:31:30 +0200 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference computing workshops Message-ID: <161227027237.23782.10639087144689985369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:01 2.12.1996 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >I have arranged with the organisers of the World Sanskrit Conference >(Bangalore 1997, January 3--9) to hold two special-interest workshops >under the rubric of "Sanskrit and Computing". Time and space has been >allocated for these meetings. Thanks for the info, and especially the CSX documentation pointer. I'm very interested in these subjects, since it is my self-appointed mission to provide fonts in Macintosh/PC formats for lesser used languages, and for language scholars (as shareware according to how much time I got, and on demand/specification, but then at a price). My latest project is a collection of fonts for use in e-mail, where special characters are found in the >127 ASCII-values, and the <128 ASCII-values are the usual ones. I believe CSX already answers these requirements, btw. A font for the writing of I.E.-IndoIranian (sc. Avestan and Sanskrit, of course) is also in the works, as well as one for ancient Greek. I'm also trying to find a workable solution for Tibetan -- in Tibetan script, since all transliterations into Latin script violate the spelling conventions of that script so as to give ab unwarranted image of monstrosity... Do you have any more useful pointers or informations, that one can get on the Net or through (snail) mail? I'm especially interested in existing standards (incl. de-facto ones) for various modern SAsian languages, in as far as these differ from CSX/Sanskrit conventions. I have a pointer you may wish to check out: under http:// www.sil.org there are a couple of nifty programs, especially SILkey and Keyman for facilitating the typing of special characters. At last a different query: Do you think a couple of queries wrt the Burushaski language would be OK on the INDOLOGY list -- given that I am (for health reasons) mainly a "Privatgelehrter" and formally an undergraduate? Regards _ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * _ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) Aphobon ho theos / Anaistheton ho thanatos To agathon eukteton / To deinon euekkartereton (Diogenes of Oinoanda -- not the one in the amphora!) Gomba lamai 'sjaylkjiyl | 'Yiyla tsjargyu mi'duq | 'Magom` dsjambai 'sjaylray` | 'Yiyla khorkhor dsjaydsjung || (Sang'yang Gjatso -- Dalai Lama VI) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Dec 3 11:44:40 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 12:44:40 +0100 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027239.23782.13989210409143268525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>It should be added that there are several algorithms for cluster analysis >>that yield somewhat different results. It would be foolhardy simply to >>produce a cluster analysis and accept the result as authoritative, several >>attempts with different sets of criteria and different algorithms would have >>to be done. > >This adds another item to the list of 'I don't understand'; which algorithms >are more 'objective'? Has non-parametric statistics (eg maximum likelihood) >been used in this area? Generally speaking, most of the Indological studies that have used statistics are of very poor quality. Most of the scholars who did this did not bother to take a statistics course, the notable exception being Trautmann, who based his study upon the chi-square test. Yardi acquired some knowledge in analysis of variance, but his statistical modelling is very bad, and his conclusions are in no way acceptable. I have given a detailed critique of Yardi in my thesis. Apart from that, I definitely think that philologists should talk to mathematicians (or statisticians) if they want to use numerical methods. But they should also learn to use some of these techniques themselves. In modern languages studies, a large number of very good statistical works have been produced. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to do this in our own field. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Tue Dec 3 20:49:12 1996 From: martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Bemmann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 12:49:12 -0800 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027235.23782.13392971741441298886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can somebody provide me with more information and/or reference on the custom of painting the goat's fur before sacrifice? It seems to be use in Nepal, and somewhere else?? For an example view http://www.webart.com/asianart/mustang/goats.html -- martin bemmann Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway Karlstrasse 4 Postfach 102769 D-69017 Heidelberg phone ++49-6221-543276 fax ++49-6221-543355 e-mail martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue Dec 3 23:19:57 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 13:19:57 -1000 Subject: Hindi and English in Karnataka Message-ID: <161227027270.23782.4694909016682138665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: > was dropped). Two years ago there were violent riots, mainly in > Bangalore, when Urdu t.v. news was broadcast from the Bangalore Robert... are you unaware that it wasn't an anti-Hindi riot -- it was, to a great extent, an anti-Muslim riot? The areas most affected (e.g., Shivajinagar) have a lot of Muslims. So it wasn't a "good" (anti-Hindi) riot, it was a "bad" (anti-Muslim) riot. Pardon the sarcasm -- but you sound quite smug about anti-Hindi riots. The major source of LANGUAGE-related agitations in Bangalore, in the many years I have known it, has been due to anti-TAMIL, not anti-Hindi, feelings. Nicht wahr? Too many Tamil movie theaters -- oppose statue of Tiruvalluvar -- oppose Kaveri water to TN -- etc., etc., etc. There have been violent anti-Tamil riots in Bangalore. There have never been violent anti-Hindi riots. What (if anything) does it mean, other than that people like us shouldn't provide intellectual camouflage for rioters? It especially pisses me off to see a foreigner taking part enthusiastically in perpetuating our problems. Yes, wasting our time fighting and rioting is a problem. Learning Hindi (or English) is not a problem. > I invite those who come to the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore > next January to look around in Bangalore city and keep count of shop > signs in English and in Hindi. You will find that every street with > shops has English signs; in the 17 years that I have been visiting the > city, I have not seen a shop with a Hindi sign. Come, all of you, and > have a look. Anyone can verify this. Hindi is found on a few central > government buildings. (Maybe there will be some advertising in Hindi for > north Indians during the conference, as there was near Shravanabelagola > during the mahaamastakaabhi.seka; that I cannot predict.) (And if any > witty person on this list objects that for some reason Bangalore is not > representative: this experiment can be repeated in Mysore, Nanjangud, > Mercara, Sakleshpur, Shimoga, Tirthahalli, Mangalore, Udupi, > Dharwad,...) Quite true... but if I went and spoke in English to the proprietor of the "Manjunatha bidi shop" or "Ambika Tea Stall" (even in spite of the English shop signs), I would be perceived as a Westernized misfit (no problem if I spoke Hindi). (Robert may not be aware of any such distinction because he's a foreigner anyway. In fact, he would seem more weird if he spoke an Indian language than if he spoke English). In general, my experience is that "less educated people" in Bangalore (small shopkeepers, autorickshaw drivers, vegetable sellers, police constables) are likely to know more broken Hindi than broken English (not that they know either of them well). "More educated people" tend to know fluent English and broken Hindi. > While you are doing this, please also see the demand for > and supply of English books in bookshops and compare this with the > demand for and supply of Hindi books. While you're about it, also check the demand for, and supply of, Kannada books. Pitiful. And this is the capital of Karnataka State. Looks like English is more of a threat than Hindi, nicht wahr? Then why are there no anti-English riots? Simple. There is no identifiable group of people associated with English. You can easily find scapegoats when you want to pick on other languages: Tamil language == those arrogant, clannish Tamilians taking so many jobs in Bangalore! Hindi language == those arrogant Bhaiyyas forcing us to watch Hindi movies (yeah, right). Urdu language == those fanatical Muslim invaders who broke up our country! But English == ??? No one to blame easily. Besides, these agitators are not really pro-Kannada (rioters never are pro-anything, really). They haven't contributed anything to Kannada literature or language. Life in India is difficult. They just need something on which to take out their anger. We can understand and sympathize with them. But not encourage them with mutterings about some Hindi imperialist conspiracy which is threatening Kannada. Hindi is not threatening Kannada. ENGLISH is threatening Kannada. It doesn't matter. Get on with it. > Now what does this mean? Why do all these shopkeepers communicate with > non-Kannada people in English? Are the collected shopkeepers of > Karnataka such complete idiots that they would use English if Hindi were > more widely understood and more useful? The answer is so glaringly > obvious that it is silly to discuss this matter any further. And I will > not discuss it further. Those who wish to play the fool can do so: the > choice is entirely theirs. Descend from your lofty heights, bright Athena, and have patience with this "ullu" (owl). Have you noticed that in many places, there are almost no KANNADA shop signs either? Is it because the local people don't know Kannada? Or are the English signs simply seen as "more classy" -- an important consideration for a shopkeeper? Regards, Raja. From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Dec 3 18:36:38 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 13:36:38 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Computer Dictionary Message-ID: <161227027254.23782.7853495617442828983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>I am working on a long term project on Shakta Philosophy, >>particularly Shriyantra and Shri Vidya. I am also fascinated >>by Kashmir Shaivaism and its striking parallels to Shri Vidya. Seems right down Douglas Renfrew Brooks' alley... you might want to correspond with him... probably, he is still at the Dept of Religion and Classics Univ of Rochester Rochester, NY 14627 e-mail: dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu -Srini. From conlon at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 3 22:04:22 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 14:04:22 -0800 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027266.23782.13462246625481521375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My memory may be fading, but I recall seeing lots of sheep in the highlands of Scotland in 1965 that had a patch of pink or orange on their fleece. Since in those days Eid was not often celebrated around Inverness, I assumed it had to do with practical affairs of sheep herding. Is it possible that worldly concerns intrude in South Asia as well? Frank Conlon From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Dec 3 11:43:51 1996 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 14:43:51 +0300 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027244.23782.11479359191618482177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can somebody provide me with more information and/or reference on the >custom of painting the goat's fur before sacrifice? It seems to be use >in Nepal, and somewhere else?? >For an example view http://www.webart.com/asianart/mustang/goats.html In the mountains of northern Pakistan, such goats have a patch of pink dye on them. I asked why it was done and was told only that it identified the goats to be sacrificed. Of course, if it has non-Islamic connotations, people might not know about them, or might not feel like discussing them. Ruth Schmidt From HMARLE at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Tue Dec 3 15:06:21 1996 From: HMARLE at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Halina Marlewicz) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 15:06:21 +0000 Subject: definition of sAmAnAdhikara.nya Message-ID: <161227027249.23782.4611579460898017792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the indology list, In one the minor Vi'si.s.taadvaaita text there appears a definition of "saamaanaadhikara.nya" (congruence). The definition is quoted as one found in "Mahaabhaa.sya" under suutra 3.2.124. I am a bit baffled to find, that no such definition can be found there. That is, the very word appears, but defined in a bit different way and as applied to a linguistic context different from that spoken of in the Vi'si.s.taadvaita text. Can anyone help me to find out, whether anywhere in Mahaabhaa.sya appears the following definition of "saamaanaadhikara.nya" : "binnaprav.rttinimittaanaam 'sabdaanaam ekasminnarthe saamaanaadhikara.nyam". Congruence defined in precisely the same manner can be found in Raamaanuja's work. The ony purely linguistic definition somehow similar to the one quoted above appears in Vaamana and Jayaaditya's "Kaa'sikavrtti" to suutra 2.1.49. with best regards, Halina Marlewicz Institute of Oriental Philology Indology Dept. Jagiellonian University Al.A.Mickiewicza 9/11 Cracow, Poland e-mail: hmarle at VELA.filg.uj.edu.pl From chattrj at is3.nyu.edu Tue Dec 3 20:21:09 1996 From: chattrj at is3.nyu.edu (chattrj at is3.nyu.edu) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 15:21:09 -0500 Subject: Harvard Outreach Lecture Message-ID: <161227027258.23782.14424112549837957162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please join if you are in the area. >---------------------------------------------------- > > Harvard University > Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies > Outreach Committee Public Lecture > --------------------------------- > > "INDIAN CULTURE IN THE CARIBBEAN" I'd love to attend, but can't leave NY on that date. Sorry. I'll be sending you a copy of my video ("Free To Sing?") soon. Thanks & regards. :Sudipto Chatterjee _____________________________________________ In the flood of your tears, where Rain Tells stories of someone else's pain-- That's where on my own I'll meet with you alone. :Suman Chatterjee _____________________________________________ 100 Bleecker Street, Apt. #7C, New York, NY 10012 Tel: (212) 979-6466 Fax: (212) 998-1855 From ralphbunker at msn.com Tue Dec 3 15:36:19 1996 From: ralphbunker at msn.com (Ralph Bunker) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 15:36:19 +0000 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference computing workshops Message-ID: <161227027253.23782.7748961655376564686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have arranged with the organisers of the World Sanskrit Conference >(Bangalore 1997, January 3--9) to hold two special-interest workshops >under the rubric of "Sanskrit and Computing". Time and space has been >allocated for these meetings. >The two workshops are: > 1. On the Computer Sanskrit Extended character encoding: retrospect and > future development. >2. On standards for the transliteration of Devanagari text using only > ASCII characters. Consider two Sanskritists S1 and S2 who want to exchange files. S1 uses a Macintosh, hates transliteration and prefers to only see Devanagari. S2 is a PC user and prefers transliteration. Would it be possible to write a computer program which lets them type sanskrit texts the way they want to AND to read and edit each others files the way they want to. Such a program should have at least following features: 1. It is available as shareware for a nominal fee (10 US dollars). 2. It is available on Intel, Macintosh and Unix platforms. 3. The user can train it to recognize any typing convention. By typing convention I mean the actual keystrokes that are used to produce the text on the screen. So long a in one typing convention might be 'A' and in another 'aa'. 4. The user can train it to convert keystrokes into displayed transliteration text using any transliteration font (i.e., one that supports diacritical marks.) 5. The user can train it to convert keystrokes into any devanagari font and display the keystrokes in that font. 6. The program supports virtual devanagari fonts, i.e., those made up of more than one 256 character font. So it would be possible to have a virtual devanagari font of over 1000 characters which would give you all the ligatures for conjunct consonents that you could desire. 7.The program could open a file created in any format that it understands and then display that file in the style that the user has requested. 8. The program can save a file in any format that it understands. 9. All knowledge that the program uses to understand keystrokes, read files, save files and display files is stored externally in tables that can be created using an ASCII text editor. When the program is run, it first checks what tables are available and initializes itself using the information contained therein. Using such a program S1 and S2 could communicate as follows. S1 creates the tables (or uses already created ones available on the Web) that instruct the program behave the way that S1 wants it to behave. S1 types a text (which is displayed as devanagari) and saves it. S1 then sends the text along with the necessary tables to S2 who copies the tables to the appropriate directory (if they are not already there) and opens S1's file. The file will be displayed in S2's transliteration font (not in S1's devanagari font) and S2 can use his keystrokes to edit the file. He can then save the file and send it back to S2 who will view it in devanagari and use his typing convention to edit it. Would such a program obviate the need for the sorts of standards that will be discussed in the above mentioned workshops? Such a program would be far less complex than the software that, say, lets two computers communicate on a network and it would probably take less time to design, write and debug such a program than it would take to get the world's Sanskritists to agree on conventions. With luck a demo version of such a program will be available in time for the World Sanskrit Conference. From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu Tue Dec 3 23:59:22 1996 From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 15:59:22 -0800 Subject: definition of sAmAnAdhikara.nya Message-ID: <161227027261.23782.1648338880544195102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In her query on saamaanaadhikara.nya, Halina Marlewicz quoted the following definition that she encountered in a "minor vi'si.s.taadvaita text": > "saamaanaadhikara.nya" : "binnaprav.rttinimittaanaam 'sabdaanaam > ekasminnarthe saamaanaadhikara.nyam". Dr. Marlewicz remarks that the definition is also found in Raamaanuja. In addition, it is perhaps worth noting the following definition given by Kar.nakagomin in his .tiikaa (p.149) on Dharmakiirti's *Svopaj~nav.rtti*: bhinnanimittayo.h 'sabdayor ekasminn adhikara.ne v.rtti.h saamaanaadhikara.nyam The use of the dual can probably be explained by context, since Kar.nakagomin is discussing the saamaanadhikara.nya of an expression for a single dharma (such as *'sukla*) with an expression for a dharmin (such as *a'sva*). This definition is clearly quite close to the one given above, and my impression is that, in the context of discussion on 'sabdaartha, this type of definition was not generally disputed. I too have found only the Kaa'sikaa's gloss to express a similar notion in the grammatical tradition, and I would likewise welcome any further references from within the grammatical tradition or from texts of other traditions (I have found no precise gloss in the works of Praaciinanaiyaayikas thus far, but I would certainly expect there to be such a gloss somewhere). In any case, I would be surprised to find any significant variance on the basic definition of saamaanaadhikara.nya when it is understood in the context of 'sabdaartha. Nevertheless, any further glosses or similar citations would be most welcome (especially any that contradict my claim!). I am curious, by the way, about translations for the term in English. When the term implies an ontological committment (as, for example, when 'suklatva and a'svatva are thought to be somehow instantiated in the same locus), "co-instantiation" seems to work fairly well. Where the notion of an ontological committment needs to be avoided for some reason, the perhaps less satisfactory "co-referentiality" might be satisfactory. Any thoughts or suggestions for other translations? adhikara.na'sabda.h abhidheyavaacii / samaanaadhikara.na.h samaanaabhidheya.h > > Dear Members of the indology list, > > In one the minor Vi'si.s.taadvaaita text there appears a > definition of "saamaanaadhikara.nya" (congruence). > The definition is quoted as one found in "Mahaabhaa.sya" under > suutra 3.2.124. > > I am a bit baffled to find, that no such definition can be found > there. That is, the very word appears, but defined in a bit different > way and as applied to a linguistic context different from that spoken > of in the Vi'si.s.taadvaita text. > > Can anyone help me to find out, whether anywhere in > Mahaabhaa.sya appears the following definition of > Congruence defined in precisely the same manner can be found in > Raamaanuja's work. > > The ony purely linguistic definition > somehow similar to the one quoted above appears in Vaamana and > Jayaaditya's "Kaa'sikavrtti" to suutra 2.1.49. > > with best regards, > > Halina Marlewicz > Institute of Oriental Philology > Indology Dept. > Jagiellonian University > Al.A.Mickiewicza 9/11 > Cracow, Poland > > e-mail: hmarle at VELA.filg.uj.edu.pl -- John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University From magier at columbia.edu Tue Dec 3 21:22:11 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 16:22:11 -0500 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027263.23782.8553300705279963930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Can somebody provide me with more information and/or reference on the > custom of painting the goat's fur before sacrifice? It seems to be use > in Nepal, and somewhere else?? I observed this also throughout Pakistan, as part of the Eid rituals. It was explained to me that the purpose of painting is that it makes the goat festive and attractive, which helps the family develop a sense of attachment to this particular animal, so that the sacrifice becomes a more poignant recreation of the sacrifice of Abraham. David Magier Columbia University From AmitaSarin at aol.com Tue Dec 3 21:40:41 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 16:40:41 -0500 Subject: Proto-Siva Message-ID: <161227027264.23782.15865096548035968267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anyone ever noted the similarity between the Proto-Siva on the Indus seals and the Bison-horn Maria? The headdress of the seated figure is exactly like those worn by the Maria Gonds in Central India. It is composed of bison horns with a long tuft of peacock feathers between them. Although these tribes now live in the jungles of Central India, their ancestors probably lived all over the sub-continent, perhaps even in the Indus Valley in the third millenium B.C. I assume IV scholars have explored any such possible connections by now (and probably dismissed them too). Any references? Regards, Amita Sarin From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 4 02:24:20 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 18:24:20 -0800 Subject: Query: Brahmins and Vedic Schools. Message-ID: <161227027271.23782.2597230642974782889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to those who answered my questions with suggestions and references. Regards, Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 4 02:50:05 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 18:50:05 -0800 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027276.23782.1568387223020881246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I've come across, in the saamaveda and also in the chaandogya upaniShad, sequences of numbers within verses which I am assuming are some sort of notation system intended for accentuating syllables during chanting - usually in the manner of ''32111. I've included examples indicating this notation from the chaandogya upaniShad below. I would like to know what these numbers represent and what they are used for. I've considered looking at Wayne Howard's work on the notation of the Jaiminiiyas, but thought that as the chaandogya is of the Kauthuma shaakhaa, Howard's work might not be of much help. Perhaps such assumptions are not to be made, eh? Any suggestions as to any sources or treatises I could turn to, preferrably with English interpretation, to allow me further insight on this topic? Examples from the chaandogya upaniShad: (where \m+ indicates vedic anusvaara.) lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu 33 pashyema tvaa vaya\m+ raa 33333 hu 3 m.h aa 33 jyaa 3 yo 3 aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.4.. lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33 pashyema tvaa vayaM vairaa33333 hu3m.h aa33jyaa 3yo3aa32111iti .. 2.24.8.. lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33pashyema tvaa vaya\m+ svaaraa 33333 hu3m.h aa33 jyaa3 yo3aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.12.. aadityamatha vaishvadevaM lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33 pashyema tvaa vaya\m+saamraa33333 hu3m.h aa33 jyaa3yo3aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.13.. Thank you in advance. Regards, Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Wed Dec 4 05:00:06 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 23:00:06 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit Computer Dictionary Message-ID: <161227027278.23782.889213905034179704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am new to this list so let me give a short introduction of myself. My >name is Swami Vishvarupananda, and I am working on a long term project on >Shakta Philosophy, particularly Shriyantra and Shri Vidya. I am also >fascinated by Kashmir Shaivaism and its striking parallels to Shri Vidya. >I am also interested in the general study of Hindu Scriptures. >At present I would be happy if anyone could tell me where I can find a >computer dictionary for Sanskrit-English and possibly also >English-Sanskrit. I have found an online Sanskrit Dictionary at >http://reality.sgi.com/employees/atul/sanskrit/dict/search.html >but what I am really searching for is a dictionary I can install on my PC >(Pentium running Windows 95). >Thanks, >Swami Vishvarupananda >Omkarananda Ashram Himalays >omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in For those who have missed past comments, Thomas Malten and his group have been working for several years on entering and editing the entire Monier Williams dictionary and it is near release time even now. Very extensive software is in process of completion by Ralph Bunker, with help from work of several others, including George Cardonna's and Peter Scharff's work on Paaninii. The software will take the very terse listing of Sanskrit words by Williams and expand it to virtually all possible forms, add in extensive grammatical information, remove the extensive abbreviations of Williams, and otherwise make Williams truly useful as an automatic spelling checker and translation reference. Ralph probably will not be in Bangalore, but several of his friends will be and we hope to have some prototypes of this and other software available for examination at the conference. Ralph is also trying to complete prototypes of a very powerful text processor with extensive transliteration abilities, including support for over a thousand variations of characters in a single Devanagari font. This is incredibly exciting, because it seems that finally Sanskrit will begin the process of developing the extensive proofing tools that have been available for so many years in simple scripts like English.!!! Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Wed Dec 4 05:00:08 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 23:00:08 -0600 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference computing workshops Message-ID: <161227027280.23782.8935729168084820219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe that a program that is based on the Unicode standard will be the >way to go to have most, if not all the features. BUT I doubt if such a >program will be available for US$10, considering the payments a developer >has to pay to Unicode Consortium for membership and/or to acquire the >necessary development tools. Perhaps it is possible for around US$99, for >the PC, and a higher fee for Unix. I cannot comment on the Macintosh. For those who missed, the new Unicode standard has recently been published by Addison Wesley (over a year after it was scheduled) and the cost is only about US$50. It contains standards for every language, plus a CDROM with some softwaer in pc, MAC, and UNIX platforms. It idoesnot seem to be significantly harder to use this standard than some other one. Claude setzer csetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Dec 3 22:49:31 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 23:49:31 +0100 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027268.23782.9432083259944785676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Claus wrote: >"South Asia - and particularly India - for a number of >reasons (political, economical, military and cultural) > >will be much more important to the global community in >the years to come than what has been the case so far." > >While I, and I'm sure everyone on this list share Mr. >Fosse's hopes that India will have a bright future, my >mutual fund broker, far less optimistic, advises me not >to put my money on it. Yet. He is not the only one with a similar conservative attitude. Norwegian business is also mostly bypassing India. >But, in any case, this was not the "pragmatic service" >I had in mind. Nor was it Frank Conlon's, I think. The >lesson learned by government (Nixon, Reagan ... ) from >the (irrational, paranoid defense) funding of the 50's >and 60's was that academics are not the best group to >fund even if America's interests DO lie in SA. Clinton >sent the Secretary of Commerce there with groups of US >businessmen. The language most important for these >pragmatic concerns is C++. Undoubtedly, at least to begin with. However, no one finds it particularly strange that a business man or budding diplomate takes a course in French language and culture. It may come in handy if you want to operate in France... The problem with academics, seen from a political/buraucratic or business point of view (I have worked both in bureaucracy and business), is that they mostly speak a different language, even if they speak the same mother tongue. People in politics or business want practical solutions, how-to's and two-day courses. If you put 500 pages of brilliant detailed analysis on their table, they run for cover. They have no time for that sort of thing. Part of the new deal we in my opinion need with "practical life" is to develop a rapport or common understanding - if you like: a common language - between the theoretical and the practical guys. It takes a little getting used to on both sides. If we don't succeed, I am quite convinced that academia will suffer - and in the long term, also practical life. And by the way: I believe that India has a potentially bright future, but even if the future should turn out to be dismal, South Asia and India will continue to be important. A weak and chaotic South Asia has always invited some kind of invasion or intervention from the outside. An imploding South Asia would create a whole new set of problems that would demand the attention of American and European governments. They would still need expertise. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 4 11:32:17 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 03:32:17 -0800 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027292.23782.7955071807718667469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Mr. Fuji, > For the numeral notation of the Kauthuma-Saamaveda, see Wayne Howard, > Saamavedic Chant (New Haven and London, 1977), pp. 29--75: Chap. 1. The > Kauthuma Numeral Notation. Thank you for the citation, but the copy our libraries have here seem to be missing. Alas! Probably stuck somewhere on a reshelving cart. Is this a rather easy to acquire text? If so, perhaps an inter-library loan is in order. > Concerning the saaman in ChU 2,24, which you have quoted, it is to be > noted that there is another version of the same passage with different > musical numbers, which, I think, are those of the gaayatra-saaman: O. > B"ohtlingk, 'Kh^andogjopanishad (Leipzig, 1889), p. 23f.; Chaandogya > Braahmanam, III (Kumbakonam, 1980), p. 60f. The latter text I can get (Kumbakonam), the Boehtlingk I cannot. Nonetheless, I will refer to this to examine the differences. Thank you for your time. Regards, Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From mrabe at artic.edu Wed Dec 4 13:21:04 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 08:21:04 -0500 Subject: Indus Civilization and the Gangetic Doab Message-ID: <161227027301.23782.13322546405871510911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though the response thus far as been underwhelming on this list, I for one wish to applaud Joe Bernstein's recent appraisal of the literature, state of the questions, pertaining to earlier threads in Indology pertaining to Hindutva takes on the _Aryan invasion_ and allied topics. Pardon the change of thread name--I'm late for work-- Anyhow, Joe? Would you be willing to give us your impressively informed read and assessment of our list member, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman's much LONGER post to the Indology web page, at this URL? http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indus.html This is how it opens: ____________ Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization (c. 3000 B.C.) [I shall be grateful to receive critical comments: Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004 India Tel. 011-91-44-493-6288; 493-5871; Fax. 011-9144-499-6380 Internet: mdsaaa48 at giasmd01.VSNL.net.in] Objective The objective of this article is to promote an understanding of and further researches into delineating the courses of the `lost' Sarasvati river from Siwalik ranges to the Rann of Kutch (sAgara) and to gain deeper insights into an ancient civilization that flourished on the Sarasvati and Indus river valleys circa 3000 BC. This work substantiates the insights provided in N. Mahalingam's article in Tamil which appeared in Amuda Surabhi, Deepavali issue, 1995: carittirangaLai uruvAkkiya sarasvati nadi (sarasvati river which created histories), citing the work done by Swami sAkyAnanda of advaita ashram, Trichur affirming that north-western region nurtured by the Sarasvati river is the ancient civilization which is the heritage of South Asia. The intent is to circulate this to all scholars interested in exploring further into the ancient cultures which flourished on the Sarasvati-Sindhu river valleys. __________ Many of us DO share his & your interests, Shri/Thiru/Mr. Bernstein; only many others may, like me, feel too entangled on other parts of life's many Webs to jump in on every question of interest. So, it IS fair to say, I trust, that _WE_ look forward to your appraisal--particularly of the evidence for megalopoli along the lost Sarasvati basin. With thanks again for your generous postings, Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University (hence the self-cc above*) & School of the Art Institute of Chicago (*so as not to miss anything while over there, please copy me back there too) From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Dec 4 16:10:12 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 10:10:12 -0600 Subject: Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227027305.23782.6559865168794007595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q: Saiva Siddhanta Philosophy ***************************** Can someone post a bibliography of saiva siddhanta works in sanskrit, tamil and english? Also, veera saiva philosophy works in kannada, telugu, tamil, sanskrit and english? I heard veera saiva agamas have been printed in Varanasi. Thanks, N. Ganesan From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Dec 4 16:10:42 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 10:10:42 -0600 Subject: Q: P. Younger Message-ID: <161227027303.23782.7708205957351533560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does Paul Younger, Dept. of Religion, McMaster university, Canada have an e-mail address? N. Ganesan From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Wed Dec 4 02:18:04 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 10:18:04 +0800 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference computing workshops Message-ID: <161227027274.23782.10845441393627844504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:31 PM 12/3/96 GMT, Ralph Bunker wrote: > >Consider two Sanskritists S1 and S2 who want to exchange files. S1 uses a >Macintosh, hates transliteration and prefers to only see Devanagari. S2 is a >PC user and prefers transliteration. Would it be possible to write a computer >program which lets them type sanskrit texts the way they want to AND to read >and edit each others files the way they want to. Such a program should have at >least following features: >1. It is available as shareware for a nominal fee (10 US dollars). >2. It is available on Intel, Macintosh and Unix platforms. >3. The user can train it to recognize any typing convention. By typing >convention I mean the actual keystrokes that are used to produce the text on >the screen. So long a in one typing convention might be 'A' and in another >'aa'. -------deleted ------ I believe that a program that is based on the Unicode standard will be the way to go to have most, if not all the features. BUT I doubt if such a program will be available for US$10, considering the payments a developer has to pay to Unicode Consortium for membership and/or to acquire the necessary development tools. Perhaps it is possible for around US$99, for the PC, and a higher fee for Unix. I cannot comment on the Macintosh. We hope to have a program released in January that plans to support input (typing) methods based on the Tuebingen-Zuerich format, ITRANS format as well an the INSCRIPT (Govt. of India std. script keyboard layout) format. Regards...Das From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Wed Dec 4 09:55:55 1996 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 10:55:55 +0100 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027287.23782.14499116593080131237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:56 03/12/1996 GMT, you wrote: >Can somebody provide me with more information and/or reference on the >custom of painting the goat's fur before sacrifice? It seems to be use >in Nepal, and somewhere else?? >For an example view http://www.webart.com/asianart/mustang/goats.html >-- >martin bemmann > >Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften >Felsbilder und Inschriften am Karakorum Highway >Karlstrasse 4 >Postfach 102769 >D-69017 Heidelberg > >phone ++49-6221-543276 >fax ++49-6221-543355 >e-mail martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de > At least a textual reference to the 'custom' : In the mRcchakaTika of zUdraka, Carudatta on his way to the execution ground complains : (Act X, verse 5) sarvagAtreSu vinyastai rakta-candana-hastakaiH/ piSTa-cUrNAvakIrNaz ca puruSo 'haM pazu-kRtaH// "By the prints of (the extended) hand dipped in red-sandal paste, impressed over all my limbs and covered over with rice-flour and sesamum powder, I, a man, am turned into an animal (about to be slaughtered)." [transl. M.R. Kale, The mRcchakaTika of zUdraka, 1924 (rep.1962) p. 355]. The commentary of pRthvidhara makes it clear that the "animal about to be slaughtered" is a goat going to be sacrificed (ibid. p.353 : pazu[r] devatArthaM chAgAdiH... J.F. From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Wed Dec 4 09:07:08 1996 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 11:07:08 +0200 Subject: Going on Holiday-P.Kumar Message-ID: <161227027284.23782.16317334257786885864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleague, Could you unsubscribe me as I am going to India on my research project. When I come back I will subscribe again. Thank you. Pratap From ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Wed Dec 4 11:25:34 1996 From: ecl6tam at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 11:25:34 +0000 Subject: Humorous Aside Message-ID: <161227027289.23782.8086877625973969945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 3 Dec 96 at 22:59, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Part of the new deal we in my opinion need with "practical life" is to >develop a rapport or common understanding - if you like: a common language - >between the theoretical and the practical guys. Heard yesterday in a radio interview with a scientist on Jan Mayen Island: "Theory is when you understand everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works, but you don't understand why. In this research station, we combine theory with practice: nothing works, and we don't understand why." Now there's a common language that we can all speak! :-) Alec. Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From srini at engin.umich.edu Wed Dec 4 17:04:09 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 12:04:09 -0500 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027307.23782.13536951833819722689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey wrote: I would like to know what these numbers represent and what they are used for. I've considered looking at Wayne Howard's work on the notation of the Jaiminiiyas, but thought that as the chaandogya is of the Kauthuma shaakhaa, Howard's work might not be of much help. Perhaps such assumptions are not to be made, eh? Yes. Wayne Howard's work/books are absolutely essential for the various perspectives they offer on the different Kauthuma notations and the Jaiminiya notation. His "Samavedic chant" has detailed discussions on what the numerals represent... are they simply pitches, with 1 representing the highest... or do the numerals broadly represent motifs... and so on. Any suggestions as to any sources or treatises I could turn to, preferrably with English interpretation, to allow me further insight on this topic? You could also look at his "Matralaksanam" (Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1988) for more details on Samavedic chant. G.H.Tarlekar's "The Saman chants : a review of research" (Bombay: Indian Musicological Society, 1985), as the title suggests provides abstracts followed by the author's comments on various Samavedic studies over the past 150 years. -Srini. From das at netcom.com Wed Dec 4 20:23:10 1996 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 12:23:10 -0800 Subject: Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227027314.23782.17389897591488675121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Ganesan wrote: > Can someone post a bibliography of saiva siddhanta works in > sanskrit, tamil and english? The following is a list of works in Tamil Saiva Philosophy Devaram - Thirugnanasambandar - Thirunavukkarasur - Sundaramurthy Thiruvachakam - Manickavachakar Thirukovaiyar - Manickavachakar Thiruisaipa - Senthanar Thirupallandu Thirumanthiram - Thirumoolar Thirumurai Thiruthondar Puranam (Periya Puranam) - Sekkizhar Thirukkural - Thiruvalluvar -- Das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From spalurma at calcium.helios.nd.edu Wed Dec 4 19:45:39 1996 From: spalurma at calcium.helios.nd.edu (subrahmanya palurmallampalli) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 14:45:39 -0500 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027312.23782.6811939951072437603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is what I remember from a conversation with my vedic teacher in India a while ago: Rg, Yajur and Atharva uses three svaras : udatta, anudatta and svarita denoted as ', _ and ". The Saama uses 5 svaras which is why it can be sung and hence the term saamagaanam. The minimum number of svaras that constitute a raagaa is 5. It also uses numerals to indicate the length of time over which a given syllable is to be chanted. If the time taken to chant one syllable is say 1 sec, a 2 at the end of the syllable would indicate that the syllable is to be chanted for 2 seconds and so on. A small example of this can be found at the very end of one of the chapters of the Taittiriiya upanishad (aananda valli - I think), though it is in the taittiriiya aaranyakaa. I am really not competent to say any of the above with authority as I am not familiar with it. Hope I am not misleading anybody! Subrahmanyam Mallampalli From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Dec 4 11:36:55 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 17:06:55 +0530 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227027298.23782.16199199302014746702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I've seen goats with a spot of pink dye all >the way from Maharashtra to Tamil Nadu (the >region I'm most familiar with). They were >not elaborately painted like the Nepal goats; >they just had a patch of pink dye. These patches may as well have been the left overs of holi. Holi is a festival celebrated around March all over India, a little akin to carnival. People spray each other -- and anything that moves for that matter -- with colored water and powder, mostly pink. After this festival you see animals walking around with color spots for months, as the color is very difficult to remove. Apart from this it is a custom with some shepherds to mark their animals with similar colors. Thus, if you see lots of 'spotted' animals they would hardly be marked for sacrifice. -- Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Dec 4 22:12:26 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 17:12:26 -0500 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027316.23782.8483577592477390415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >>In cluster analysis, the aim is to study how the different variables >>or different subjects group together. The results can be displayed >>as a tree diagram. Closest neighbors are grouped together >>and joined to a single vertex. Something not more closely related to >>some compared to the others is left as an isolated twig. Then this >>process is repeated with each group obtained at this stage. This is the >>kind of diagram that is found in write-ups of the `African Eve' theory, >for example. >It should be added that there are several algorithms for cluster analysis >that yield somewhat different results. It would be foolhardy simply to >produce a cluster analysis and accept the result as authoritative, several >attempts with different sets of criteria and different algorithms would have >to be done. That creates its own set of problems. Large scale migrations are rare events. The burden of proof is on those who assert that such an event occurred. If you do several such analyses, you must report all of them and >explain< any negative results; for example, that they failed to take into account all measurable traits. And any way, this thread started with Joe reporting hearsay report that Lukacs had `shown' evidence of population discontinuity. I fail to see that being questioned. >>It may be worthwhile if Indology courses did require a course in >>understanding statistics. For example, a rank correlation test on >>the different attempts to arrange the books of Rgveda in a >>chronological sequence would be eye opening. >This has been attempted by Walter Wuest, but the result is not quite as >eye-opening as one would wish. I guess I must stop being too cryptic. I was talking about comparing the results arrived by different methods, but was avoiding mentioning specific names. I have in mind a statement by Witzel (in ``The Indo-aryans of South Asia'', see p.96) that the chronological ordering of the books of Rgveda by Wuest and by Hoffmann agree ``more or less''. I took the Wuest's ranking as given by Witzel (I don't have ready access to Wuest's monograph) and Hoffmann's ranking, leaving out Book 1 (which is missing from the ordering quoted by Witzel), and computed the rank correlation. It comes out to be a mere 0.07 (p-value .440). [Witzel quotes Wuest's ranking in four groups separated by vertical bars. Treating being in the same group as ties, and ignoring within group order improves the rank correlation to only .22, (p-value .290).] [In this example, the p-value is the probability that two random ordering of the books would produce correlation coefficient at least this large.] >Since I wrote my thesis on the use of >statistics in Indology, I second the opinion that such methods are valuable, >but they are fraught with a large number of theoretical and practical >difficulties that have to be solved. If anything is to be gained by using >statistical methods in the study of Sanskrit texts, that "anything" will be >gained with a great deal of very hard, painstaking drudgery, not to mention >the problem of communicating the result to one's non-statistical colleagues >afterwards! I would like to read your thesis. Please let me where you published it. There is one issue that I am sure you must have addressed, but which I cannot resist talking about. This is the use of controls. Let me share an experiment I performed a few months back. I took the Mahabharata text from John Smith's files, and looked at the frequency of different types of vipulas in the various parvans. Just for fun, I looked at the cantos of Kumarasambhava (Kale edition) and Raghuvamsa (Nirnayasagar edition) that were in anushtub. To my great surprise (and horror), I found that Kumarasambhava as closer to Mahabharata (Bhishma and Drona parvans, I did not try this with others) than it was to Raghuvamsa. and the difference was fairly significant: I don't remember the p-values, but were close to 0.05. [This does not prove that Kumarasambhava and Raghuvamsa were composed by different persons. The most serious objection would be that I did not look at Trishtub and Jagati patterns, where Kalidasa conforms to the traditional poetical theory, but Mahabharata does not. Then there is the question of critical edition of Kalidasa] The point is that without controls, there is no good way of knowing if the statistical significance says anything about practical significance. In particular, the frequency of vipulas in short works would remain suspect in my eyes as a valid means of comparison, till someone explains the strange case of Kalidasa. Girish Beeharry wrote: >This adds another item to the list of 'I don't understand'; which >algorithms are more 'objective'? Has non-parametric statistics >(eg maximum likelihood) been used in this area? I have not personally done cluster analysis. So, don't take my word on this. And I got interested in cluster analysis because of the `Out of Africa' theory, where the problems are different in nature. As I understand it, we can't quite call one method more objective than the other. Some methods look for clusters of some particular shape. Others do not for clusters as such, but build trees by joining nearest neighbors into one branch, then replacing them by their average etc. [Out of Africa analysis has the problem of large data-sets, which should not a problem in HLK case.] There does not seem to be any clear agreement as to which method suits a given situation better than others. But, I doubt that in the case of small data-sets, the different methods would give widely divergent answers. I don't believe that reanalyzing the HLK data would produce the conclusion that there was a discontinuity between 2000 BCE and 1000 BCE. -Nath Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Wed Dec 4 08:27:53 1996 From: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Masato Fujii) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 17:27:53 +0900 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027282.23782.6347220134702743035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the numeral notation of the Kauthuma-Saamaveda, see Wayne Howard, Saamavedic Chant (New Haven and London, 1977), pp. 29--75: Chap. 1. The Kauthuma Numeral Notation. Concerning the saaman in ChU 2,24, which you have quoted, it is to be noted that there is another version of the same passage with different musical numbers, which, I think, are those of the gaayatra-saaman: O. B"ohtlingk, 'Kh^andogjopanishad (Leipzig, 1889), p. 23f.; Chaandogya Braahmanam, III (Kumbakonam, 1980), p. 60f. Anshuman Pandey wrote? > >Hello, > >I've come across, in the saamaveda and also in the chaandogya upaniShad, >sequences of numbers within verses which I am assuming are some sort of >notation system intended for accentuating syllables during chanting - >usually in the manner of ''32111. I've included examples indicating this >notation from the chaandogya upaniShad below. > >I would like to know what these numbers represent and what they >are used for. I've considered looking at Wayne Howard's work on the >notation of the Jaiminiiyas, but thought that as the chaandogya is of >the Kauthuma shaakhaa, Howard's work might not be of much help. Perhaps >such assumptions are not to be made, eh? Any suggestions as to any >sources or treatises I could turn to, preferrably with English >interpretation, to allow me further insight on this topic? > >Examples from the chaandogya upaniShad: > >(where ?m+ indicates vedic anusvaara.) > >lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu 33 pashyema tvaa vaya?m+ >raa 33333 hu 3 m.h aa 33 jyaa 3 yo 3 aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.4.. > >lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33 pashyema tvaa vayaM >vairaa33333 hu3m.h aa33jyaa 3yo3aa32111iti .. 2.24.8.. > >lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33pashyema tvaa vaya?m+ svaaraa >33333 hu3m.h aa33 jyaa3 yo3aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.12.. > >aadityamatha vaishvadevaM lo3kadvaaramapaavaa3rNuu33 pashyema >tvaa vaya?m+saamraa33333 hu3m.h aa33 jyaa3yo3aa 32111 iti .. 2.24.13.. > >Thank you in advance. > >Regards, >Anshuman Pandey > >--- >Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington > > "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. > Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you > see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." > > > Masato FUJII ====================================================== Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University E-mail: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Phone: +81-75-753-6949 Fax: +81-75-753-6903 ====================================================== From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Dec 4 12:12:20 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 17:42:20 +0530 Subject: Numeric notation in the SV and related works. Message-ID: <161227027300.23782.5530440006487533426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Anshuman, The notations in Samaveda (123...) are as you assumed a notation system intended for accentuating syllables during chanting. The other Vedas use Svaras ( ' and _ ) above and below letters for intonation. ' means that the voice is lifted on the vowel connected with the akshara, while _ means that the voice is lowered on the same. In a similar way, Samaveda, which is sung rather than recited uses numbers 1 to 3 to indicate its melody. Unfortunately I am not aware, how exactly these are translated into sound. -- Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tatelman at total.net Wed Dec 4 18:02:03 1996 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 18:02:03 +0000 Subject: Q: P. Younger Message-ID: <161227027318.23782.5792379302992051832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding N. Ganesan's inquiry about Paul Younger's e-mail address: At the recent AAR/SBL meeting in New Orleans, I did hear him mention that he is now on e-mail. I don't know his address; my only suggestion is to contact Grace Wang, Dept. of Religious Studies, McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada L8S 4K1: she usually knows everything. Tel. no. is (905) 525-9140 ext. 23109. If Grace doesn't know, you can leave your e-mail address with her and she'll pass it on to Paul. Sorry, that's the best I can do Regards, Joel Tatelman. Joel Tatelman #2-293A Roncesvalles Ave. Toronto, Ontario, M6R 2M3 Canada. Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Dec 4 12:42:34 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 18:12:34 +0530 Subject: Shakta Philosophy Message-ID: <161227027296.23782.17944435791616400692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rama, It's nice meeting you. Have you read the books such as "Spanda Karikas" and "Shiva Sutras" by Jaideva Singh? I regard them as among the greatest jewels I have ever found in scriptural literature. These books are published in India by Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, Jawahar Nagar, Delhi 110 007. There are more titles in this field and by this author. I can search them out for you, if you are interested. Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Dec 4 12:47:58 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 18:17:58 +0530 Subject: This group Message-ID: <161227027294.23782.3984219951537304537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the indology list, Thanks to everyone who responded to my message introducing myself and reg. Sanskrit Dictionary. I am very sorry to react only now, but the mail-server in Delhi was down for a couple of days, so I was unable to receive any mail. This really promises to be a very interesting group and it is full of nice people! It is unfortunate, that one has to search the net for a long time to find this group. I had found a couple of Hindu groups, but they are awfully silent. So I'm truly happy to have found a place to call home on the net! -- Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Wed Dec 4 18:46:32 1996 From: axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 19:46:32 +0100 Subject: Muliki Ain Message-ID: <161227027309.23782.16858843113808865764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Jean, we did?t hera from each other for a long time. As you might know I meanwhile went to Berne in Switzerland and now moved to Heidelberg. All the years passed I asked myself from time to time what happened to the edition and translationof the MA which you planned. As I told you once I had to withdraw prom this project because of my commitments at Berne. However, I never lost the interest in this text and still read in ir time and again. Did you make progress? Have you published on it recently? I have published an article on Sati in the Etudes Asiatique from Zurich. If you have not got it I would be delighted to send you a copy. Just let me know your adress (which I have stored somewhere, but don't ask where). Since long I plan to write something on the adhikaari in the MA. Did you work on it specifically? Since I am now close to A. Hoefer my sleeping interest in this text might awake again. Best wishes and greetings, Axel From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Dec 4 19:08:53 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 20:08:53 +0100 Subject: Humorous Aside Message-ID: <161227027311.23782.16290284367095717678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alec McAllister wrote: >>Part of the new deal we in my opinion need with "practical life" is to >>develop a rapport or common understanding - if you like: a common language - >>between the theoretical and the practical guys. > >Heard yesterday in a radio interview with a scientist on Jan Mayen >Island: "Theory is when you understand everything but nothing works. >Practice is when everything works, but you don't understand why. In >this research station, we combine theory with practice: nothing >works, and we don't understand why." > >Now there's a common language that we can all speak! :-) This is of course very much an engineer's language. After a couple of years as a senior executive officer in the translation section of a Norwegian ministry, I can assure you that it doesn't matter one bit if nothing works as long as you don't tell your superiors. If you do, they (at least the more energetic) feel compelled to do something about it, and all hell breaks loose. As for their political overlords, they are quite happy if nothing works as long as they can blame their political opponents. In fact, the opposition is positively delighted if nothing works. That gives them a lot of ammunition in the political struggle. Part of the new deal between the practical and the theoretical guys should therefore not be that the latter promise to solve all problems. It should rather be that they do *not* solve the problems, but avoid solving them in such a way that the government can blame the opposition, the opposition can blame the government, and the leaders of the various ministries can blame the press (or vice-versa). A well-engineered flop with a credible excuse is vastly superior to a nice, tidy success that nobody cares about. I think intellectuals have something to offer here that few can emulate. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Dec 5 02:39:49 1996 From: keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu (katherine eirene ulrich) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 20:39:49 -0600 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027325.23782.4532511686600570544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I was in Maharashtra last summer, I saw cows, oxen, and goats that had been painted, some quite elaborately, in psychedelic colors; one person told me this was for a "local festival," but I never managed to find out more. From apandey at u.washington.edu Thu Dec 5 07:06:45 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 23:06:45 -0800 Subject: The sevens types of marriage in Hinduism. Message-ID: <161227027331.23782.11107190194684452771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall once having read about seven different types of matrimony in Hinduism, each distinguished from the other by the manner in which the girl was given to, or taken by, the husband. I would like to know in which text(s) these marriages are explained in detail and also the names of the marriages. Off the top of my head (and therefore probably not exact) I remember one type being where the girl was allowed to choose her own husband, another where the girl was abducted by the husband, yet another when the devas gave her to her husband. Thanks in advance. Regards, Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From kishore at mail.utexas.edu Thu Dec 5 04:30:42 1996 From: kishore at mail.utexas.edu (Kishore Krshna) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 23:30:42 -0500 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027327.23782.5964299670539423689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:23 PM 12/04/1996 GMT, Vidyanath Rao wrote: >I have in mind a statement by Witzel (in ``The Indo-aryans of South >Asia'', see p.96) that the chronological ordering of the books of Rgveda >by Wuest and by Hoffmann agree ``more or less''. I took the Wuest's >ranking as given by Witzel (I don't have ready access to Wuest's monograph) >and Hoffmann's ranking, leaving out Book 1 (which is missing from the >ordering quoted by Witzel), and computed the rank correlation. It comes out >to be a mere 0.07 (p-value .440). [Witzel quotes Wuest's ranking in four >groups separated by vertical bars. Treating being in the same group as >ties, and ignoring within group order improves the rank correlation to >only .22, (p-value .290).] [In this example, the p-value is the probability >that two random ordering of the books would produce correlation >coefficient at least this large.] How many pairs of observations did you have for the analysis? If it was less than 30 (the central limit theorem threshold) underlying assumptions about normality may not hold (for the statistically challenged - you're saying that the observations are centered about the actual value and the likelihood of being farther away from the actual value is low as in a bell-shaped curve). Even if there are 30 or more observations, I thought there were traditionally 10 books in the Rg Veda which means leaving out book 1, you have more than 9 observations arising from a set of nine books - what is the theoretical reasoning here? Wouldn't a Kolmogorov-Smirnov test be better (it's non-parametric which means it doesn't make assumptions like the bell curve above) if the hypothesis is to test differences between the two sets of rankings? >This is the use of controls. Let me share an experiment >I performed a few months back. I took the Mahabharata text from >John Smith's files, and looked at the frequency of different types of >vipulas in the various parvans. Just for fun, I looked at the cantos of >Kumarasambhava (Kale edition) and Raghuvamsa (Nirnayasagar edition) >that were in anushtub. To my great surprise (and horror), I found that >Kumarasambhava as closer to Mahabharata (Bhishma and Drona parvans, >I did not try this with others) than it was to Raghuvamsa. and the >difference was fairly significant: I don't remember the p-values, >but were close to 0.05. [This does not prove that Kumarasambhava and >Raghuvamsa were composed by different persons. The most serious objection >would be that I did not look at Trishtub and Jagati patterns, where >Kalidasa conforms to the traditional poetical theory, but Mahabharata does >not. Then there is the question of critical edition of Kalidasa] I haven't a clue what anustubh, jagati is and my recollection of vipula is minimal. However, what is the theory that suggests that you should be examining these specific entities? Why these specific works and those specific parvans? Wouldn't it make more sense to do this across all parvans of the Mahabharata to test opinions about interpolations? I'm reminded of the gospel that I drill into my students on the first day of my information & analysis class: just because there's a large positive correlation between cranes flying over Sweden and the number of babies born in Sweden over a period of years, you shouldn't assume that there's an association between the two events. The issue of controls is something to be considered later. >Girish Beeharry wrote: >>This adds another item to the list of 'I don't understand'; which >>algorithms are more 'objective'? Has non-parametric statistics >>(eg maximum likelihood) been used in this area? Sample size must be higher. >As I understand it, we can't quite call one method more objective >than the other. Some methods look for clusters of some particular >shape. Others do not for clusters as such, but build trees by >joining nearest neighbors into one branch, then replacing them >by their average etc. [Out of Africa analysis has the problem of >large data-sets, which should not a problem in HLK case.] There does >not seem to be any clear agreement as to which method suits a given >situation better than others. It's a question of theoretical assumptions and what methodological assumptions you're willing to live with. Generally, there are 2 types of CA: (1) single pass - the analysis goes through the data once in building the trees. The problem is, if there's an early mis-classification there's no chance to correct it. (2) Multiple pass - start at random and repeat the process. Takes more time, needs higher sample sizes. >But, I doubt that in the case of small data-sets, the different methods >would give widely divergent answers. I don't believe that reanalyzing the >HLK data would produce the conclusion that there was a discontinuity >between 2000 BCE and 1000 BCE. Well, in dealing with business data, small samples do result in different solutions esp. single vs multiple pass. Since these are exploratory techniques, if possible you should validate the existence of these clusters with data that has been held out from the analysis. Most of these ideas are pretty elementary stuff for mathematicians and statisticians, but they need to be said:-) Kishore Kishore Krshna kishore at mail.utexas.edu ______________________________________________________________ From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Thu Dec 5 15:42:01 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 05:42:01 -1000 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027348.23782.17456878028046226997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >When I was in Maharashtra last summer, I saw cows, oxen, and goats that > >had > >been painted, > >some quite elaborately, in psychedelic colors; one person told me this > >was > >for a "local festival," but I never managed to find out more. > > > Long time ago I was in a Tamilnadu village during the Tamil New Year > festival (Pongal) and noticed a great number of bulls and buffaloes > painted for the festival. There was some talk about a buffalo sacrifice, > but majority of these animals had probably nothing to do with it. That is "maattupp pongal", the day before or after (I forget which) the Pongal festival (a harvest festival). The cattle are given special food and decorated on that day. Definitely not sacrificed... Also, another festive occasion is during "Vijaya Dashami", when on a particular day each person worships the tools of her/his trade ("ayudha puja"). Truckdrivers decorate their trucks, farmers decorate their ploughing cattle, etc. So you can find cattle decorated and wearing flower garlands. On another note... Holi is not celebrated in Tamil Nadu (probably not even in Karnataka). So the pink-spotted goats had not been splashed by mistake. Regards, Raja. From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Thu Dec 5 14:41:14 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 06:41:14 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027347.23782.7198163986737979203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 5, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, Robert J. Zydenbos's use of shop signs as an indicator of language use (the language situation) in Bangalore and Raja's reply to it make interesting reading not only for the discussion context in which they were intended, but also (perhaps) for some of the other discussions on this LIST over the past year, and particularly the recurent one on the Indus Valley/Indigenous Aryan controversy. It suggests great research project in 'ethno- archeology' assessing the relationship between language and culture as found in cryptic material cultural remains. A really thorough contemporary study might give useful leads to archeologists 5,000 years from now on the English Invasion of India. Surely they would otherwise come to the conclusion that there was a swift and massive movement of people from a small island thousands of miles away in an armada dwarfing anything the Spanish had amassed only a century earlier. And did they proliferate! [Of course it might be argued the other way around, that the English, coming from India (where we can see from the signs a language clearly emerging), invaded the rest of the world...] Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From AmitaSarin at aol.com Thu Dec 5 12:41:33 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 07:41:33 -0500 Subject: Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227027341.23782.17419360977892972098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The multivolume Sunyasampadane, by S.C. Nandimath, L.M.A. Menezes and R.C. Hiremath (Dharwar: Karnatak University, 1965) contains Virasaiva vacanas in original script as well as transliteration and translation in English. A more general work (probably too basic for your needs) is S.C. Nandimath. A Handbook of Virasaivism (Dharwar, 1942). Hope this helps. Regards Amita Sarin From phijag at zelacom.com Thu Dec 5 12:54:52 1996 From: phijag at zelacom.com (phijag at zelacom.com) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 07:54:52 -0500 Subject: The sevens types of marriage in Hinduism. Message-ID: <161227027343.23782.17196803299089795180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> paishaaca-bridegroom seduces female when she is unconscious or nearly so; raaakshasa - female captured by force; gaandharva - "love"-marriage; aasura - husband must pay for bride and she freely agrees; praajaapatya - arranged marriage; aarsha - husband freely gives gifts for the wife; daiva - bride given to a priest; braahma - bride given away complete with gifts. One resource is Raj Bali Pandey's Hindu Samskaras (Motilal Banarsidass) John > >I recall once having read about seven different types of matrimony in >Hinduism, each distinguished from the other by the manner in which the >girl was given to, or taken by, the husband. I would like to know in which >text(s) these marriages are explained in detail and also the names of the >marriages. > >Off the top of my head (and therefore probably not exact) I remember one >type being where the girl was allowed to choose her own husband, another >where the girl was abducted by the husband, yet another when the devas >gave her to her husband. > >Thanks in advance. > >Regards, >Anshuman Pandey > >--- >Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington > > "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. > Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you > see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." > > > From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Thu Dec 5 08:31:16 1996 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 09:31:16 +0100 Subject: The sevens types of marriage in Hinduism. Message-ID: <161227027333.23782.12819367043961235328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See: P.V. Kane, _History of Dharmasastra_, vol.2, pp.516-26. Regards Mikael Aktor, University of Copenhagen. At 07:13 AM 12/5/96 GMT, you wrote: > >I recall once having read about seven different types of matrimony in >Hinduism, each distinguished from the other by the manner in which the >girl was given to, or taken by, the husband. I would like to know in which >text(s) these marriages are explained in detail and also the names of the >marriages. > >Off the top of my head (and therefore probably not exact) I remember one >type being where the girl was allowed to choose her own husband, another >where the girl was abducted by the husband, yet another when the devas >gave her to her husband. > >Thanks in advance. > >Regards, >Anshuman Pandey > >--- >Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington > > "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. > Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you > see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." > > > > Mikael Aktor, Research Fellow, cand.phil. Department of History of Religions, University og Copenhagen, Njalsgade 80, DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark. Phone: (45) 3532 8954 - Fax: (45) 3532 8956 - E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Thu Dec 5 01:38:56 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 09:38:56 +0800 Subject: Ramayana... Message-ID: <161227027321.23782.3294275172580415712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me with the original verses in Ramayana where Lord Rama meets Rishi Valmiki and asks him where He should reside. The rishi gives a beautiful reply by saying: "You ask me where you should live? With no little hesitation I ask you, can you tell me a place which is not full of your presence?" Further on, Rishi Valmiki tells Lord Rama: "You should live in the hearts of those who seek no other reward for their good actions.....etc." Thanks & Regards...Das From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Thu Dec 5 01:38:57 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 09:38:57 +0800 Subject: Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227027319.23782.6961544178688413109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:26 PM 12/4/96 GMT, you wrote: >On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Ganesan wrote: > >> Can someone post a bibliography of saiva siddhanta works in >> sanskrit, tamil and english? > >The following is a list of works in Tamil Saiva Philosophy > >Devaram > - Thirugnanasambandar > - Thirunavukkarasur > - Sundaramurthy > ----------------- Deleted --------------- You may also want to check the publications of Saiva Siddhanda Church, Hawai, who has a number of publications. They can be reached at Regards...Das From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu Thu Dec 5 17:52:02 1996 From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 09:52:02 -0800 Subject: definition of sAmAnAdhikara.nya Message-ID: <161227027345.23782.12118993080794444822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Birgit for the reference from Vaacaspati. I must confess that I have already been over this passage, and although his basic point on saamaanaadhikara.nya is clear, he does not quite offer the type of glosses that were included in my last message. In any case, it seems that he is operating with a similar gloss, since in the continuation of the section that Birgit kindly provided, he says: 'sabdaanaa.m tv ekasmin prav.rrttes tadvaacyaanaam aikaatmyabhrama.h / This in many ways summarizes the basic point of his comments; that is, although saamaanaadhikara.nya might appear to require that the vaacya of the expressions in question be identical, it would be mistake to assume any such identity. In making this point, Vaacaspati re-affirms the realist ontology to which he is committed. For the purposes of this discussion, what is interesting about the above quoted statement is simply that Vaacaspati appears to presume the same type of gloss given by Kar.nakagomin, Raamaanuja, and so forth. Birgit also suggests that "co-referentiality" is the best translation, but I am not particularly satisfied with it. The problem is that this translation raises the entire issue of "reference," which, given its uses in Euro-american philosophy, can be quite misleading in the Indian context. On Vaacaspati's Naiyaayika ontology, for example, what would be the "referents" of the two terms in the expression *'sukladadhi*? On Vaacaspati's view, one should argue that the "referents" of the terms must be distinct. Hence, it would be a mistake to say that both of these terms "refer" to the dravya, but on the most straightforward interpretation of "reference" as it is used these days, this is what the translation "co-referentiality" would suggest. The advantage of "co-instantiation" is that it points to the manner in which the vast majority of Indian philosophers conceived of saamaanaadhikara.nya; that is, it is a state of affairs in which two entities are somehow instantiated in the same locus such that the 'sabda for those entities are applicable to (or "refer to") that same locus. A further advantage is that it also serves as a translation for saamaanadhikara.nya in the context of inference. Perhaps I am being a bit too picky here, but it seems to me that if we can avoid misleading technical terms from the Euro-American philosophical tradition, we should do so. -- John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University -- John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Thu Dec 5 10:23:20 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 10:23:20 +0000 Subject: update to Pali texts Message-ID: <161227027335.23782.15350525187397344603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is now some time since we announced the availability on-line of the machine-readable version of the Sinhalese edition (BJT) from IBRIC. At that time we promised periodic updates to these texts (not yet proof-read). Unhappily the schedule slipped badly due mainly to the long period of power cuts in Sri Lanka and a few other, miscellaneous problems. Happily, I can announce that the first update is now available from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics (JBE) sites in the U.K. and U.S. This is perhaps best viewed as a maintenance update with limited changes. So probably those who do not use the files for regular, detailed textual work may prefer to wait for the second update. (Improvements to particular texts are detailed below.) This is running on schedule at the moment and we hope to have it on the fileservers at the end of January, if not before. It will contain more substantial improvements to many texts. As before the files are available from the JBE websites: >http://www.gold.ac.uk/jbe/jbe.html >http://www.cac.psu.edu/jbe/jbe.html Or, they can be obtained by FTP: ftp://ftp.cac.psu.edu/jbe/Pali ftp://scorpio.gold.ac.uk/jbe/Pali ------------------------ Ven. Mettavihari (the Danish monk at IBRIC) has asked me to add the following note of thanks: We here at IBRIC would like to thank all the persons who has informed us of errors in the tipitaka texts, and look forward to hearing more from you in the future. If we have not yet corrected all the errors that we have been informed of by you, then please bear with us and, if possible, send us a new list. I would especially like to thank the persons who have mentioned omissions in the text. We have attempted to include in this update all the omitted passages of which we have been informed but would be happy to be sent more information of this kind. Even a single word is much appreciated. It could well be wrong in 50 places in the whole tipitaka as typists tend to make the same type of mistakes all the time. We can then replace them all at the same time. --------------------------- To this we might perhaps add the thanks of those of us around the world who are benefiting from the generosity of Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari (the Director of IBRIC), from the work of a number of Sinhalese monk scholars in Sri Lanka and Australia and from the tireless efforts of Ven. Mettavihari himself. ----------------------------- The main changes to the texts for Update 1 are as follows: Missing sections in the Diigha-nikaaya, Jaataka and Kathaavatthu have been added. Revised version of AN is included. There is some additional PTS page numbering in the Khuddaka-nikaaya. Amendments have been made to the Mahaaniddesa. Small numbers of errors in various texts have been corrected. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From g53772 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Dec 5 02:27:08 1996 From: g53772 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Muneo Tokunaga) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 11:27:08 +0900 Subject: Re Saiva Siddhanta Message-ID: <161227027323.23782.8549210132246353894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Ganesan wrote: > Can someone post a bibliography of saiva siddhanta works in > sanskrit, tamil and english? Contact The South India Saiva Siddhanta Works Publishing Society, Tinnevelly, Limited, Tirunelveli-6, Madras-1. You can get from this office not critically edited but indispensable source-texts of the Tamil classics including such publications of Saiva Siddhanta as listed by Mr. Das. =============================================== Muneo TOKUNAGA Professor of Indian Philosophy Graduate School of Letters, Kyoto University Kyoto, Japan (606-01). Tel. 075-753-2778 email: g53772 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp =============================================== From athr at loc.gov Thu Dec 5 16:48:47 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 11:48:47 -0500 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027350.23782.11867538318386670018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that in many systems of lifestock herding, the herdsmen do not own the flocks, or all of them, and at least part of what they herd is not their own. The painting can be for distinguishing ownership within a flock (like brands or ear-cuttings) in addition to whatever other purposes the beasts may be painted. Allen Thrasher From FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de Thu Dec 5 13:29:10 1996 From: FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Maitrimurti) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 13:29:10 +0000 Subject: request for info. Message-ID: <161227027339.23782.5173876937117818747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the List: Prof. S.A. Srinivasan has requested that the following be forwarded to the list. He is interested in sources for and information and clarification regarding the terms kaara.naat paapa.m and kaara.naat pu.nya.m. The terms are encountered in the commentary by Samaradivaakara to the Jain text Niilake"sii. Our thanks in advance. Anne MacDonald, Maithrimurthi University of Hamburg From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Thu Dec 5 14:20:38 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 14:20:38 +0000 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027337.23782.1731180170486158026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> katherine eirene ulrich wrote: > >When I was in Maharashtra last summer, I saw cows, oxen, and goats that >had >been painted, >some quite elaborately, in psychedelic colors; one person told me this >was >for a "local festival," but I never managed to find out more. > Long time ago I was in a Tamilnadu village during the Tamil New Year festival (Pongal) and noticed a great number of bulls and buffaloes painted for the festival. There was some talk about a buffalo sacrifice, but majority of these animals had probably nothing to do with it. Klaus From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Thu Dec 5 22:32:40 1996 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 14:32:40 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: definition of sAmAnAdhikara.nya] Message-ID: <161227027329.23782.10341978670384872152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 4537 URL: From jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu Thu Dec 5 20:21:04 1996 From: jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu (jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 15:21:04 -0500 Subject: Goats and Henna Message-ID: <161227027354.23782.2236927855907923909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In India over the years I, too, have seen numerous goats (and other animals) with colors on their bodies. Often, in Maharastra and some other states cow horns are painted for beauty, to identify the owner, as a celebratory act at festival time or for some other reason, and buffalo horns may be trained from an early age for beauty or to identify ownership, but none of this is ever a precursor to sacrifice. With goats, I have often wondered but never asked why in areas as diverse as Kashmir and Tamil Nadu one sees goat herds with color on their coat. Given the recent commentaries about "goat-coloring", I raised the issue this afternoon with a colleague who is a specialist on Islamic folk traditions. She indicated that among Muslims henna (and by extension, the color red) was often used on the bodies of goats, sheep (and other animals as well)--sometimes as a handprint, other times as a large spot--for protection of the animal against hasad [the eye of envy] or disease. And that other colors were used as marks of ownership. One is also reminded of the use of handprints around the doors and/or windows of village houses in various parts of India to ward off the "Evil Eye", and not particularly in Muslim houses either. From Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 5 16:05:55 1996 From: Jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 16:05:55 +0000 Subject: Source of quotation? Message-ID: <161227027352.23782.6617674991065631660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me where the quotation d.r.s.ti.m j~naanamayi.m k.rtvaa pa'syet brahmamaya.m jagat comes from? -- John Richards Stackpole Elidor (UK) jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk Home Page http://www.elidor.demon.co.uk/ From sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu Thu Dec 5 21:57:22 1996 From: sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu (sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 16:57:22 -0500 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027356.23782.2632845743514304142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am posting the following query on behalf of Steve Fox, who is working on a script for a play. Matter of some urgency: Does anyone know the specifics (or a book which might contain the specifics) of the following story from Indian folklore? Story title: something like _Good Luck, Bad Luck_ Story: A villager comes down from the mountains and tells a Holy man of some ill fortune which has just befallen him. The Holy man says "Good luck, bad luck who could say." The villager goes about his business and it turns out that what he thought was bad luck really resulted in much good coming to him. The villager returns to the Holy man and tells him of his new good fortune and the Holy man says, "Good luck, bad luck who could say." As the story progresses this twist of "good luck" actually results in much misfortune coming to him. The story goes back and fourth like this for a while. I forget the ending, and the specifics but several people I've spoken with do have some recollection of having heard this. Any help in this matter would be very gratefully appreciated. Steve Fox Tel. (212) 362-9452 Fax. (212) 362-8908 From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Dec 5 22:09:49 1996 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 17:09:49 -0500 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027358.23782.2210605324474644562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Long time ago I was in a Tamilnadu village during the Tamil New Year festival (Pongal) and noticed a great number of bulls and buffaloes painted for the festival. There was some talk about a buffalo sacrifice, but majority of these animals had probably nothing to do with it. Klaus Pongal is a harvest/agriculture/solar oriented festival occuring around Jan 14... celebrated as Makara Sankranti in other regions... certainly, it is not the Tamil New Year festival which falls in April. The day after Pongal is usually called mATTu-pongal (lit. cow/buffalo-Pongal)... on this day, the cows, bulls, buffaloes are dressed up with bright colored markings, bells, flowers, and such... and are taken around town. There is usually a bullfight-style contest around that time known as "jallikkaTTu", with the winner taking the prize tied to the horn of the animal... no killing of the animal takes place, as far as I know. I have not heard of buffalo sacrifices either... it would be even more surprising if it were to take place on this festive occasion when one's cattle possessions are dressed up and paraded around... sacrifices of fowl, goats occur commonly, on various occasions, in mAriamman temples and elsewhere. -Srini. ps: Us philistines in North America celebrate all such festivals, in almost entirely a public manner, during the nearest weekend... or even two weekends before/after depending on when the local school district grants the use of their facilities. In some cases this never happens since the local Tamil Sangam has become persona non grata with the school district... owing to enthusiastic kids causing false fire alarms, 911 emergency calls, in plenty ;-). This distinguished record is shared by some other linguistic groups too, I believe. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Dec 6 01:11:09 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 17:11:09 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Computer Dictionary Message-ID: <161227027364.23782.3360379010092643410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Swami Vishvarupananda wrote: > I am new to this list so let me give a short introduction of myself. My > name is Swami Vishvarupananda, and I am working on a long term project on > Shakta Philosophy, particularly Shriyantra and Shri Vidya. I am also > fascinated by Kashmir Shaivaism and its striking parallels to Shri Vidya. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I am also interested in the general study of Hindu Scriptures. > This is an interesting way of putting it, given that it is usually assumed that Srividya and the worship of Tripurasundari originated in Kashmir Saivism, and was absorbed by others, specifically Advaita Vedantins. See, for example, publications of Douglas Renfrew Brooks, Andre Padoux etc. One such online text is available on gopher at gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/00/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia/ Groups/institutes/DHIRC/VedaSeminar/Padoux.txt, which has a summary of Andre Padoux's April 1996 presentation at the Columbia University's Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center. Anyway, here are some general references on Sriyantra and Sricakra. 1. Pranavananda, Swami. A treatise on Sricakra / Swami Pranavananda. Yenugula Mahal, East Godavari Dt., A.P. : Sri Swami Pranavananda Trust, 1992. 2. Sricakra puja vidhanamu : istartha siddhi-jivitabhivrddhi-vijayamu vidya-kirti labhamu kutumba saukhyamulanu prasadincu cakrarajamu / sankalanam, Pi. Manik Prabhu. Sankarampeta, Medak Jilla : Sricakravidya Pracaraka Mandali, 1993 (in Telugu). 3. Ramachandra Rao, Saligrama Krishna, 1926- Sri-chakra : its yantra, mantra, and tantra / by S.K. Ramachandra Rao. Bangalore : Kalpatharu Research Academy, 1982. 4. Ramachandra Rao, Saligrama Krishna, 1926- Tantra, mantra, yantra : the tantra psychology / S. K. Ramachandra Rao. New Delhi : Arnold-Heinemann, 1979. 5. Ramachandra Rao, Saligram Krishna, 1926- The tantrik practices in Sri-Vidya : with Sri Sarada-chatussati / S. K. Ramachandra Rao. 1st ed. Bangalore : Kalpataru Research Academy, 1990. 6. Srividya-varivasya / Svamisrihariharanandasarasvati (Karapatrasvami) diksanama-Srisodasanandanatha Maharajaih pranita [i.e. sankalita] ; sampadakah Sitaramakavirajah... 1. samskaranam. Varanasi : Akhilabharatiya Dharmasanghah, 2035 [1978] (in Sanskrit). 7. Upanishads. Arunopanisad. English & Sanskrit. Arunopanisat of the Srividya tradition / translated and annotated by G. Sundaramoorthy. Madurai : Srividya Eduactional Society, 1990. (Note that the Arunopanishad is a portion of the Taittiriya Aranyaka). 8. Brooks, Douglas Renfrew. Auspicious wisdom : the texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta tantrism in south India / Douglas Renfrew Brooks. Albany, NY : State University of New York Press, c1992. 9. Brooks, Douglas Renfrew. The secret of the three cities : an introduction to Hindu Sakta tantrism / Douglas Renfrew Brooks. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, c1990. References 8 and 9 give a list of other references that should be useful. S. Vidyasankar From pdb1 at columbia.edu Thu Dec 5 22:18:31 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 17:18:31 -0500 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027360.23782.17084360679028348167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Sarah Diamond wrote: > Matter of some urgency: Does anyone know the specifics (or a book which > might contain the specifics) of the following story from Indian folklore? > ...the story progresses this twist of "good luck" actually results in > much misfortune coming to him. > The story goes back and fourth like this for a while... Interesting. If I remember correctly (I read it about 30 years ago) Huston Smith in "Religions of Man" gives something very similar as a _Taoist_ parable. A folkloric universal? Something that got into China from India back in the good old days when everyone in the world learned the art of storytelling from India? -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu "Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia... in our own languages we hear them speaking about God's deeds of power." From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Thu Dec 5 16:24:04 1996 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 17:24:04 +0100 Subject: painted goats Message-ID: <161227027379.23782.1108438581623066302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > katherine eirene ulrich wrote: > > > >When I was in Maharashtra last summer, I saw cows, oxen, and goats that > >had > >been painted, > >some quite elaborately, in psychedelic colors; one person told me this > >was > >for a "local festival," but I never managed to find out more. > > > Long time ago I was in a Tamilnadu village during the Tamil New Year > festival (Pongal) and noticed a great number of bulls and buffaloes > painted for the festival. There was some talk about a buffalo sacrifice, > but majority of these animals had probably nothing to do with it. > > Klaus I understood that Pongal is a harvest festival - new rice is boiled with jaggary in a special dish to celebrate it on the first day, on the second day all the cattle are washed, painted in gay colours and allowed (encouraged) to chase around the village madly. On the third day there are very exciting and dangerous bull fights, in which men attempt to clamber on to the back of raging bulls (very angry looking black ones bred for the purpose) to grab a money prize in a brightly coloured bag on the bulls horns. There is no, repeat no, harm done to the bulls, and no weapons or implements are allowed. and on the third day *************************************************** Dr. Mark F. Tritsch Breslauer Strasse 14 B 65203 Wiesbaden GERMANY Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497 *************************************************** From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Thu Dec 5 22:55:52 1996 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (vasu at religion.ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 17:55:52 -0500 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027362.23782.6965553797826162173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I don't know of an Indian version, but Huston Smith has a similar story in his chapter on Taoism ("The Religions of Man"). I don't recall the specifics; I read it many, many moons ago, and it goes something like this: A man's horse runs away and his neighbor extends his sympathy; the owner says: who knows if it is good or bad. The horse comes back with 6 others and the neighbor congratulates him; the owner of 6 new horses gives the same reply. The owner's son breaks his leg riding on a new horse, and the neighbor (a slow learner, I gather) maks sympathetic noises. Our friend, whose replies sound like "this is a recording" says: who knows if it is good or bad. The next day the army sends around a recruiting team and because this kid has a broken leg, he is not drafted into the army (maybe he also inhaled) and is presumably spared his life. And so the story goes... Sorry, it's a great tale, but it is Chinese. Like a good Indian, I should say: they probably got it from us. It's in the Vedas (ought to be anyway). Best wishes, Vasudha From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 6 06:34:33 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 22:34:33 -0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027368.23782.12949169454733516725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 07:47 PM 12/5/96 GMT, Peter J. Claus wrote: > >Robert J. Zydenbos's use of shop signs as an indicator >of language use (the language situation) in Bangalore >and Raja's reply to it make interesting reading not >only for the discussion context in which they were >intended, but also (perhaps) for some of the other >discussions on this LIST over the past year, and >particularly the recurent one on the Indus >Valley/Indigenous Aryan controversy. > >It suggests great research project in 'ethno- >archeology' assessing the relationship between language >and culture as found in cryptic material cultural >remains. A really thorough contemporary study might >give useful leads to archeologists 5,000 years from now >on the English Invasion of India. Surely they would >otherwise come to the conclusion that there was a swift >and massive movement of people from a small island >thousands of miles away in an armada dwarfing anything >the Spanish had amassed only a century earlier. And >did they proliferate! [Of course it might be argued the >other way around, that the English, coming from India >(where we can see from the signs a language clearly >emerging), invaded the rest of the world...] Good point! But I would suggest another comparison, this time to the spread of Spanish in Latin America. This is more recent and, obviously, better documented. It was a combination of military conquest (in the earlier stages), settlement (at first mainly by men), intermarriage (well, not really, rather white Spanish men having children with dark-skinned native women) and gradual acculturation, shall we say "Spanishization," to coin a familiarly sounding term. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Fri Dec 6 08:42:51 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 02:42:51 -0600 Subject: Vedic Website Message-ID: <161227027373.23782.455212765062165982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an effort to explore the dimensions of electronic resources for humanities scholarship, I would like to invite you to review the following website: http://vedavid.org It has undergone many revisions in the last months, for which I thank everyone for their suggestions. Recent improvements based upon this input include: *FTP- EASY e-text editions of Lehmann's RV and ShB-- re-edited, formattted, and placed in ITRANS for IBM and Mac, with some handy compression tools too *Shatapatha BraahmaNa and RV-- hyperlinked according to their cross-references, with 2 indexes of hyper-linked access *Frames- adjustable in size, for multiple-window browsing (requires Netscape 2.0/IE 2.0-- see site for details-- it's easy to load it on your machine-- and FREE)-- download while you browse, use Atul's online sanskrit dictionary, browse the other Indological sites, etc. *summary of recent scholarship on ShB accent *sample of new 8-bit font technology for South Asian scripts ------- ONE VALUABLE SUGGESTION has not yet been implemented-- that the ShB and other files be downsized. I do regret that even the 14.4 modem folks will be left with ample time to grab a cup of coffee on some files. Even 28.8 folks will find new use for the "Reload" button at times. Downsizing will be done in the coming months, in tandem with corrections based upon feedback. I invite and welcome your feedback--on almost every page there is a "mail-me" link. Best wishes for the balance of the year to all, John Robert Gardner University of Iowa From WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za Fri Dec 6 07:12:48 1996 From: WIKNER at nacdh4.nac.ac.za (Charles Wikner) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 09:12:48 +0200 Subject: The seven types of marriage in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227027369.23782.5020400880512686500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, John Grimes wrote: > paishaaca-bridegroom seduces female when she is unconscious or nearly so; > raaakshasa - female captured by force; gaandharva - "love"-marriage; aasura > - husband must pay for bride and she freely agrees; praajaapatya - arranged > marriage; aarsha - husband freely gives gifts for the wife; daiva - bride > given to a priest; braahma - bride given away complete with gifts. > One resource is Raj Bali Pandey's Hindu Samskaras (Motilal Banarsidass) These eight are also described in Vi.s.nu-sm.rti 24:17ff and Manu-sm.rti 3:21ff. These are available in translation as Volumes 7 and 25 respectively, of the Sacred Books of the East. Regards, Charles Wikner. wikner at nacdh4.nac.ac.za From svadchi at agf.fr Fri Dec 6 08:34:50 1996 From: svadchi at agf.fr (Jean-Claude Svadchii) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 09:34:50 +0100 Subject: The eight types of marriage in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227027371.23782.18425405780173089612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can find in the zastras the list of the types of marriage in Hinduism. Usually, there are eight types of marriage : 1) the brAhma type when the bride's father, on his own initiative, invites his future son-in-law, possessed of sacred science and virtue, presents his daughter with clothes and ornaments, and gives her to his guest. 2) the daiva type when the father, having just begun a sacrifice, arrays his daughter and gives her to the officiant. 3) the ArSa type when the father, having received from the suitor one or two couples of bull + cow for the celebration of a religious ceremony gives him his daughter. 4) the prAjApatya when the father, having addressed the future husband and wife with the words : 'Practise the dharma together !', gives his daughter. 5) the Asura type when the suitor, on his own initiative, having given material goods to the parents and to the girl, the girl is given him (id est : the girl is sold by her father as in the Roman marriage by 'coemptio'). 6) the gAndharva type when both youths marry voluntarily 7) the rAkSasa type when, having killed or injured the opposing party and having broken into its house, a man abducts a screaming and weeping girl 8) the paizAca type when a man secretely mates an asleep, drunken or mad woman You can have a look at the MAnava DharmazAstra (3, 20-34) where the list above comes from, NArada (12, 38-44), Gotama (4,6-15), ViSnu (24, 17-28), MahAbhArata (Poona 1,67=Calc. 1,73, 8-13=2962-67), MahAbhArata (Poona 1,96=Calc. 1,102, 6-12=4086-92). For systems with six elements (Pr. and Pai. disappear), see Apastamba (2, 5,11,17-20 and 12,1-3), VasiSTha (1,28-55). For a structural analysis of the different types of marriage, a comparison with the Roman ones, a study about the gAndharva marriage and woman's freedom, studies about epic marriages (Herakles, Sigurdhr, Romulus and the Sabines, BhISma match-maker) and for two epic misdeals (Brynhildr and AmbA's vengeances)... and the information above, see Dumezil's Mariages Indo-Europeens (Paris, 1979). May I end asking if somebody knows why the fifth type of marriage (associated with wealth and with the vaizyas) is linked to the Asuras ? Regards Jean-Claude Svadchii svadchi at agf.fr > >I recall once having read about seven different types of matrimony in > >Hinduism, each distinguished from the other by the manner in which the > >girl was given to, or taken by, the husband. I would like to know in which > >text(s) these marriages are explained in detail and also the names of the > >marriages. > > > >Off the top of my head (and therefore probably not exact) I remember one > >type being where the girl was allowed to choose her own husband, another > >where the girl was abducted by the husband, yet another when the devas > >gave her to her husband. > > > >Thanks in advance. > > > >Regards, > >Anshuman Pandey > > > >--- > >Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington > > > > "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. > > Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you > > see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Dec 6 10:18:37 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 10:18:37 +0000 Subject: Correction Message-ID: <161227027377.23782.6573901358785490830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:01 2.12.1996 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >I have arranged with the organisers of the World Sanskrit Conference >(Bangalore 1997, January 3--9) to hold two special-interest workshops >under the rubric of "Sanskrit and Computing". Time and space has been >allocated for these meetings. > >The two workshops are: > > 1. On the Computer Sanskrit Extended character encoding: retrospect and > future development. > > Required reading: > ftp://ftp.bcc.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/software/iass_csx_documentation.zip This URL is incorrect. It should read: ftp://ftp.bcc.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software/iass_csx_documentation.zip Thanks to B. Philip Jonsson for spotting this. -- Dominik Wujastyk From jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr Fri Dec 6 10:12:05 1996 From: jean.fezas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Fezas) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 11:12:05 +0100 Subject: Muliki Ain Message-ID: <161227027375.23782.6142577598495890380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:47 04/12/1996 GMT, you wrote: >Hello Jean, >we did?t hera from each other for a long time. As you might know I meanwhile >went to Berne in Switzerland and now moved to Heidelberg. All the years >passed I asked myself from time to time what happened to the edition and >translationof the MA which you planned. >As I told you once I had to withdraw prom this project because of my >commitments at Berne. However, I never lost the interest in this text and >still read in ir time and again. Did you make progress? Have you published >on it recently? Hello Axel, happy to hear of you again. The whole Edition / transliteration of the text is almost ready (i.e. it needs some proof-reading, and some details are missing in the notes). Translation is in progress. The latest thing I wrote on the subject is in the BEI, I'd be delighted, a.s.o... just send me your adress. >I have published an article on Sati in the Etudes Asiatique from Zurich. If >you have not got it I would be delighted to send you a copy. Just let me >know your adress (which I have stored somewhere, but don't ask where). I'd be delighted to read it, so here's my adress. J. Fezas, 28 Grande Rue F-60570 Laboissi?re (France) Ph. 33 4 44 08 99 32 Fax 33 4 44 08 34 76 >Since long I plan to write something on the adhikaari in the MA. Did you >work on it specifically? (dharmAdhikAr ?) I have different versions of the text and feel that a lot of additions made between 1910-1925 BS to the second part of the Ain originated from the dharmAdhikAr (himself or his office) [taste for endless repetitions, particulars of style (archaisms?), etc.], but this has to be confirmed by further evidence. I did some research on ujIra siMha thApA's handbook (Paper by B.D. DaGgol; nice and careful ed. by D.R. Pant, in pUrNimA), a paper should be forthcoming. I am 'tutoring' a student who works on local paJcayats in India from an 'ethno-juridical' point of view, I suppose that it will oblige me to scrutinize procedural rules a little closer (especially eating of rice / drinking of water by the kacahari's members). >Since I am now close to A. Hoefer my sleeping interest in this text might >awake again. Nice to know you are near someone interested in the subject, we are at least three of this kind in this world. Transmit my greetings to A.H. Best wishes and greetings, Jean J.Fezas (URA 1058 CNRS - Universit? Paris III) prabhavanti yato lokaaH pralayaM yaanti yena ca. saMsaara-vartma vivRtaM kaH pidhaatuM tad iizvaraH.. (Somadeva, KathaaSaritSaagara 6.2.182) From kichenas at math.umn.edu Fri Dec 6 18:11:14 1996 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 12:11:14 -0600 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027384.23782.6077441731020341371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a very similar story I was told as a child (we are Tamils): A king cut himself and his chief minister applauded at the good news---the minister was of course immediately jailed... Later on, while traveling, the king was caught by a tribe of cannibals who were looking for a physically perfect king for their purposes. To their dismay, the king had this small wound...and they had to release him. Is there proof that the above is of foreign origin? I hope this helps. I haven't checked any of the standard sources (Panchatantra, Tenali Raman, etc). S. Kichenassamy kichenas at math.umn.edu On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Vasudha Narayanan wrote: > >I don't know of an Indian version, but Huston Smith has a similar story in > his chapter on Taoism ("The Religions of Man"). I don't recall the [...] > Sorry, it's a great tale, but it is Chinese. Like a good Indian, I should > say: they probably got it from us. It's in the Vedas (ought to be anyway). > Best wishes, Vasudha > From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Dec 6 18:32:33 1996 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 12:32:33 -0600 Subject: Q: earliest Muslims in South Asia Message-ID: <161227027388.23782.772887065762300429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two years ago, in conversation with a Hindi writer whose works I am currently translating, I was told that there was evidence on the Malabar coast of a mosque that dates to the seventh century. I was told that the standard line -- the earliest Muslims in South Asia were Arab settlers in Sind around 711 -- is old and now superseded information. Has anyone else heard this? During that conversation two years ago, when I asked for proof, I didn't get any, but I have no reason to sense that I was being deliberately misled. Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From athr at loc.gov Fri Dec 6 18:38:23 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: Journal of Indian Philosophy & Reliigion Message-ID: <161227027390.23782.17841586814476874297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Chakrabarti: Well, actually I am the only member of my department, so I can't notify them. However, I am requesting a sample issue via our Order division so as to decide whether the Library of Congress should subscribe. If you have not done so already, you might want to post an announcement on the lists: Indology Sanskrit Vyakaran Asian History and Culture Thanks for notifying me of this. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Chandana Chakrabarti wrote: > Dear Dr. Thrasher: > We would appreciate it very much if you kindly let members of your > department about the Journal of Indian Philosophy & Religion. An > announcement is enclosed. > Thanking you, > C. Chakrabarti > Journal of Indian Philosophy > and Religion > > The Society for Indian Philosophy & Religion has commenced > publishing the Journal on Indian Philosophy & Religion annually from Fall, > l996. The Journal is to cover the wide range of philosophies and > religions which are indigenous to South Asia. It will also include > scholarly work of comparative and critical studies of Eastern and > Western philosophies and Religions. > The Chief Editor: Kisor K. Chakrabarti (USA). The editorial > Board includes: Karuna Bhattacharyya (India), Owen Flanagan (USA), > Ashoke Ganguly (India), Jay Garfield ( Australia), Michael Krausz > (USA), Steve Laylock (USA), J.N.Mohanty (USA), Steven Phillips (USA), > Karl Potter (USA), John Powers (Australia), Sukharanjan Saha (India), > J.L. Shaw (New Zealand), and Mark Sidrits (USA). > The Journal will also include sections on discussion articles and > book reviews. Scholars interested in submitting manuscripts may kindly > contact: Dr. Chandana Chakrabarti, CB 2336, Elon College, Elon College, > N.C. 27244, USA. E-Mail Chakraba @numen.elon.edu. Phone (9lO)538-27O5. > Individual Journal Subscription: $20.00 > Institution: $35.00 > > Checks should be made payable to Society for Indian Philosophy & > Religion. All inquiries, payments, and manuscripts should be mailed to the > Associate Editor: Chandana Chakrabarti, 2336 Campus Box, Elon College, NC > 27244-2020, USA. > > From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Dec 6 19:45:57 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 14:45:57 -0500 Subject: Statistics (was `Out of India') Message-ID: <161227027392.23782.12556704953463894626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [This thread may not be of any direct interest to most members of Indology. I am posting this publically because I wish to correct a potential misunderstanding which my previous post may have created. I would suggest all purely statistical discussions be switched to private e-mail.] Kishore Krshna wrote: >How many pairs of observations did you have for the analysis? If it >was less than 30 (the central limit theorem threshold) underlying >assumptions about normality may not hold [...] Rank correlation is supposed to be a non-parametric test, so the underlying distribution should not affect the distribution of the statistic. Kolmogrov-Smirnov test is supposedly for different samples drawn from *continuous* populations. I am not sure why it would be a better test for comparing two rank orders. I am not even sure how I would apply since the `observations' are just the ranks from 1 to 9 in both orders. >[...] However, what is the theory that suggests that you >should be examining these specific entities? Why these specific works and >those specific parvans? Wouldn't it make more sense to do this across >all parvans of the Mahabharata to test opinions about interpolations? [...] The point of the experiment is to test the claim that differences in meter indicate differences in age or authorship. What you are saying makes sense if I had already accepted the method as valid and then try to use it to look for interpolations in Mahabharata etc. The general idea is that when I start using something new, I try it out in known situations first. If it works there, then I can think about using it in situations where the answer is not known. In other words, I was not testing for interpolations in Mahabharata or Kumarasambhava etc., but I was testing the idea that statistical differences in metrical patterns of anushtub (that is half-stanzas of 16 syllables, ending in LHLX, L=light, H=heavy, X=any) can indicate differences in age or authorship. -Nath Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au Fri Dec 6 06:03:00 1996 From: Royce.Wiles at anu.edu.au (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 17:03:00 +1100 Subject: request for info. Message-ID: <161227027366.23782.13047941521305967857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Off the top of my head I'd suggest checking the dictionary detailed below. The Abhidhanarajendrakosa could also be worth checking. I'd look myself but the library here has already closed for the weekend. Jaina-laksanavali : Jaina paribhasika sabda-kosa = An authentic and descriptive dictionary of Jaina philosophical terms / sampadaka Balacandra Sastir. Dilli: Vira Seva Mandira, 1972-76. 3 volumes. [Second printing 1979 I think.] On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Maitrimurti wrote: > Members of the List: > > Prof. S.A. Srinivasan has requested that the following be > forwarded to the list. He is interested in sources for and > information and clarification regarding the terms kaara.naat > paapa.m and kaara.naat pu.nya.m. The terms are encountered in the > commentary by Samaradivaakara to the Jain text Niilake"sii. Our thanks > in advance. > > Anne MacDonald, Maithrimurthi > University of Hamburg > > From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Dec 6 16:37:07 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 17:37:07 +0100 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027381.23782.7644795408756734055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Claus wrote: >It suggests great research project in 'ethno- >archeology' assessing the relationship between language >and culture as found in cryptic material cultural >remains. A really thorough contemporary study might >give useful leads to archeologists 5,000 years from now >on the English Invasion of India. Surely they would >otherwise come to the conclusion that there was a swift >and massive movement of people from a small island >thousands of miles away in an armada dwarfing anything >the Spanish had amassed only a century earlier. And >did they proliferate! [Of course it might be argued the >other way around, that the English, coming from India >(where we can see from the signs a language clearly >emerging), invaded the rest of the world...] I can't resist mentioning that parallell to the Indo-Aryan "invasion" of India, there was an Indo-European expansion in Europe. In the second millenium B.C. three different tribes of Greeks moved into Greece and modern Turkey (Asia Minor). They left indelible traces of themselves but also mingled extensively with the local indigenous population. At about the same time, Italic tribes moved into Italy, with the eventual result that non-Indo-European languages disappeared from Italy, Estruscan possibly being the last to go. Then, when Rome began to turn into a major power, Germanic tribes started to move westwards and southwards, pushing Celtic tribes in front of them. Now we are on historical ground. We have written records that show how this happened. Caesar gives a vivid, eye-witness description of the migration of the Helvetians from modern Switzerland into Gaul (modern France) about 54 B.C.. They constituted some 100,000 people according to Caesar, warriors, women and children. As it happened, Caesar vanquished them in a battle and sent them back to Helvetia, but the pressure continued, until Germanic tribes finally were able to break through in the late Roman period. The Vandals got as far as North-Africa, the Goths conquered Italy. In the same historic period, Celtic tribes created havoc in Greece. The last Indo-European migration is of course the massive transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas and Australia.... We do not have to assume that the Indo-Aryan tribes that trickled into India in the second millenium B.C. arrived in one big cluster. I favor the tribal movement model, where a group of people large enough to break through in battle would move forward and conquer land. It would to a certain degree mingle with the local population, and be followed or pushed forward by other tribes moving in the same direction, just as the case was in Europe. I have seen no competent comparative linguist argue in favor of the "out-of-India" model. This model is simply not reconcilable with what we know about Indo-European linguistics. Nor do archaeology convince me. Artifacts travel, just as people, not only in the sense that the objects as such travel but also in the sense that they may be copied locally. An "out-of-India" model based on archaelogical evidence alone strikes me at best as somewhat naive. That's all for now, folks. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Dec 6 18:21:10 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 19:21:10 +0100 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027386.23782.3241719155867317096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Rao wrote: >That creates its own set of problems. > >Large scale migrations are rare events. Large scale migrations have occurred quite regularly within Europe and out of Europe for the last 3000 years. E.g.: 1) Hittites into Asia Minor (3rd millenium B.C.?) 2) Indo-Aryans into Iran and India (2nd millenium B.C.) 3) Greek tribes into Greece (2nd millenium B.C.) 4) Italic tribes into Italy (2nd millenium B.C) 5) Celtic tribes into France and Britain, followed by 6) Germanic tribes, reaching Scandinavia possibly 800 B.C. 7) Germanic tribes into Gaul, Northern Italy, Spain and North Africa (end of 1st millenium B.C. until about 5-600 C.E.) 8) Magyar tribes into Hungary (800 C.E) 9) Norsemen into Northern Britain, Ireland, Hebrides, the Shetlands, Iceland, Greenland about 1000 C.E.) 10) The enourmous transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas during the last 500 years 11) The migration of Europeans to Australia during the last 200 years. Large-scale displacement of people do not happen every day, but they certainly do occur. >I would like to read your thesis. Please let me where you published it. It will be published in the series Acta Humaniora of the Faculty of Arts of Oslo University. I handed it in 4-5 months ago. I don't how far it has come in the process. >There is one issue that I am sure you must have addressed, but which >I cannot resist talking about. >This is the use of controls. Let me share an experiment >I performed a few months back. I took the Mahabharata text from >John Smith's files, and looked at the frequency of different types of >vipulas in the various parvans. Just for fun, I looked at the cantos of >Kumarasambhava (Kale edition) and Raghuvamsa (Nirnayasagar edition) >that were in anushtub. To my great surprise (and horror), I found that >Kumarasambhava as closer to Mahabharata (Bhishma and Drona parvans, >I did not try this with others) than it was to Raghuvamsa. and the >difference was fairly significant: I don't remember the p-values, >but were close to 0.05. [This does not prove that Kumarasambhava and >Raghuvamsa were composed by different persons. The most serious objection >would be that I did not look at Trishtub and Jagati patterns, where >Kalidasa conforms to the traditional poetical theory, but Mahabharata does >not. Then there is the question of critical edition of Kalidasa] This is precisely the sort of thing I found, too. Not only should you be extremely careful with metrical statistics, but also with distributions of linguistic features. For Indological statistics to succeed, you need endless patience. There is no quick fix. >As I understand it, we can't quite call one method more objective >than the other. Some methods look for clusters of some particular >shape. Others do not for clusters as such, but build trees by >joining nearest neighbors into one branch, then replacing them >by their average etc. [Out of Africa analysis has the problem of >large data-sets, which should not a problem in HLK case.] There does >not seem to be any clear agreement as to which method suits a given >situation better than others. > One of the things you have to know about cluster analysis is that it is an explorative method, not a method that claims ability to prove anything. However, if several different methods (or several sets of criteria) produce the same clusters, you may have some reason to think that the elements of the clusters really have something in common. But beware of too strong conclusions. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From thompson at jlc.net Sat Dec 7 03:09:04 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 23:09:04 -0400 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027395.23782.5610933847971375233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to respond to the recent suggestions made by Peter Claus, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, and Lars Martin Fosse, comparing the "aryan invasion" with (1) "the English Invasion of India" [Peter], (2) "the spread of Spanish in Latin America" [Luis], and (3) "the Indo-European expansion in Europe" [Lars Martin]. Such comparisons, I think, are valuable, since in the light of these better known "invasions," the Aryan "invasion" might be put into better perspective. Because our ignorance of the aryan invasion is so great, all kinds of ludicrous assertions have been made, and accepted as more or less equally valid with more reasonable assertions, as if there were no way to distinguish between ludicrous and reasonable claims. Archaeologists who can find "no evidence" of an aryan invasion, and who, because of a lack of interest in the linguistic evidence, decide that there isn't any [think of Jim Shaffer], should pay particular attention to what Peter calls "ethno-archeology." It does not make any difference how large or small was the "army" that brought English to the Indian sub-continent. The English brought it, unambiguously, and it has unambiguously taken hold. Likewise, there can be no doubt that Spanish has taken hold in Latin America, the result of a combination of "military conquest" and "intermarriage," to be sure. How large or small the "army" is irrelevant; the fact remains that the incursion took place. Furthermore, Indigenous-Aryan theorists who perceive ethnocentrism in the claims of IE- expansion theorists, must take into account the claims of these IE-expansion theorists regarding the incursions they posit into their own European nations; such claims cannot be motivated by ethnocentrism]. As a matter of fact Sanskrit "took hold" in the northern portion of the Indian sub-continent at some hard to determine time. But it did in fact *take hold*, which is to say that it wasn't there "in the beginning" [the genetic relationship of Skt. with other IE languages makes for only two options: either "into India" or "out of India" -- and the latter has nothing to support it, except for crude nationalist fantasy]. So the fact that archaeologists can find "no trace" of the IE incursion into the Indian sub-continent is a function of the crudity of their instruments of measure. Linguists are, it seems to me, in a much better position than archaeologists to say, with confidence, that Sanskrit was brought into the Indian sub-continent, and "took hold" there, for better or worse. Sincerely, George Thompson From vasu at religion.ufl.edu Sat Dec 7 15:19:52 1996 From: vasu at religion.ufl.edu (vasu at religion.ufl.edu) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 10:19:52 -0500 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027404.23782.13843941787923970913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe this story is recounted in Kirin Narayan's book-- can't remember the title off hand (it is not her fictional work Love, Stars and all that, which is a wonderful, hilarious book). Yes, it does sound like the good luck-bad luck story, and I guess it is pan-Indian. In the version I heard, the king is caught by people who want to offer a human sacrifice, and of course the "offering" has tbe be without blemish. Best wishes, Vasudha > >There is a very similar story I was told as a child (we are Tamils): A >king cut himself and his chief minister applauded at the good news---the >minister was of course immediately jailed... Later on, while traveling, >the king was caught by a tribe of cannibals who were looking for a >physically perfect king for their purposes. To their dismay, the king had >this small wound...and they had to release him. Is there proof that the >above is of foreign origin? > >I hope this helps. > >I haven't checked any of the standard sources (Panchatantra, >Tenali Raman, etc). > > S. Kichenassamy >> From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Dec 7 09:45:11 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 10:45:11 +0100 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027399.23782.12458252073340845130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Kichenassamy wrote: > >There is a very similar story I was told as a child (we are Tamils): A >king cut himself and his chief minister applauded at the good news---the >minister was of course immediately jailed... Later on, while traveling, >the king was caught by a tribe of cannibals who were looking for a >physically perfect king for their purposes. To their dismay, the king had >this small wound...and they had to release him. Is there proof that the >above is of foreign origin? I don't think you can prove that the story given above is of foreign origin. But the idea that the king should physically perfect is also found among ancient peoples in Europe. In addition, he should be more handsome than other men. The Italian newspaper La Repubblica, by the way, recently published the result of a query among ordinary Americans on how their president should look. The "identikit" president came across as an idealized Caucasian male, slim, good-looking, fortyish with an interest in sports. I think that this way of thinking may be quite "archetypical" to use the Jungian expression! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Dec 7 10:06:16 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 11:06:16 +0100 Subject: Statistics (was `Out of India') Message-ID: <161227027401.23782.10533828579829915271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Rao wrote in answer to Kishore Krishna: > >[This thread may not be of any direct interest to most members of >Indology. I am posting this publically because I wish to >correct a potential misunderstanding which my previous post may >have created. I would suggest all purely statistical discussions be >switched to private e-mail.] Allow me to disagree. As long as we are discussing Indological statistics, I think the discussion should be available to everybody who cares to follow it. I believe it would be useful for people to know about the subject. It might also spare us the more naive attempts at using numbers to prove points. If the other netters don't want it, I suggest they give us a hint. >The general idea is that when I start using something new, I try it >out in known situations first. If it works there, then I can think >about using it in situations where the answer is not known. This is sound method and really the only way to proceed. Only if you can show that statistical methods give good results in situations where you know the answer in advance you will be able to use them with any degree of confidence in situations where you don't know the answer. >In other words, I was not testing for interpolations in Mahabharata or >Kumarasambhava etc., but I was testing the idea that statistical >differences in metrical patterns of anushtub (that is half-stanzas of >16 syllables, ending in LHLX, L=light, H=heavy, X=any) can indicate >differences in age or authorship. My own experience is that metrical patterns at best only would serve to separate a few very rather long historical periods from each other. You cannot use it to differentiate between texts by unknown authors. Or rather: Differences in metrical patterns may indicate that you are dealing with two different authors, but also that you are dealing with one author who changes his style. Stylistically, the young author and the old author are two different persons! In Sanskrit, you have the additional problem that writers knew thousands of shlokas by heart, and often consciously tried to imitate the style of previous centuries. I compared some samples from Somadeva with samples from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (using linguistic criteria) - they were quite similar, at least as far as the criteria I used were concerned. Somadeva did a great imitation job! To put it succinctly: You can never be too careful when dealing with Indological statistics. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From Saba.Mylvaganam at lhg.hib.no Sat Dec 7 14:30:11 1996 From: Saba.Mylvaganam at lhg.hib.no (SABA MYLVAGANAM) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 14:30:11 +0000 Subject: Goddess who evolved out of a figure made using a var Message-ID: <161227027402.23782.8768326636615262116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello! I want to know the story(ies) of a goddess who evolved out of a " figure" made using a variety of herbal plants. There are various versions of this story, as I understand. Can the indology net give me a referance where I can read more about this? Your versions of the story would be also interesting. We have "nava paasanam" in conjunction with "Skandar" (Palani Murugan). Thanks and regards Saba Mylvaganam From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Sat Dec 7 19:53:29 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 14:53:29 -0500 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027408.23782.12441086470756962682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Large scale migrations have occurred quite regularly within Europe and out > of Europe for the last 3000 years. > > E.g.: > > 1) Hittites into Asia Minor (3rd millenium B.C.?) > 2) Indo-Aryans into Iran and India (2nd millenium B.C.) > 3) Greek tribes into Greece (2nd millenium B.C.) > 4) Italic tribes into Italy (2nd millenium B.C) These four depend on a model of the spread of IE languages which is still the subject of heated discussions. We are arguing about physical evidence for #2, remember. If we agree that there was a large scale migration, then the discussion would be over. > 5) Celtic tribes into France and Britain, followed by > 6) Germanic tribes, reaching Scandinavia possibly 800 B.C. Same problem as above. From where, how, what is the hard evidence? > 7) Germanic tribes into Gaul, Northern Italy, Spain and North Africa (end of > 1st millenium B.C. until about 5-600 C.E.) > 8) Magyar tribes into Hungary (800 C.E) > 9) Norsemen into Northern Britain, Ireland, Hebrides, the Shetlands, > Iceland, Greenland about 1000 C.E.) What was the number of settlers, versus number of raiders who came, pillaged and left? > 10) The enourmous transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas during > the last 500 years > 11) The migration of Europeans to Australia during the last 200 years. The last two were migrations of much smaller number of people, follwed by a population explotion made possible by more intensive use of land by the newcomes. This was not possible for Indo-Europeans. Indo_iranians did not know even agriculture or wheel thrown pottery, remember :-^ This leaves only 5 cases out the original 11. #7 is a case of X pushed Y who pushed Z etc. After all, that is why it took nearly 600 years for the Goths to get North Africa. Now what is the chronology of Indo-Aryan `invasion'? And, remember, the Indo-Aryans had to drive their chariots over Afghanistan. Anybody measured the speed of chariots over mountains? > Large-scale displacement of people do not happen every day, but they > certainly do occur. Movements of tribes numbering in 10,000s, I will swollow. But they hardly displaced prexisting populations. They simply inserted themselves into the preexisting populations in all cases of yours which I consider to be cases of established migrations. > It will be published in the series Acta Humaniora of the Faculty of Arts of > Oslo University. I handed it in 4-5 months ago. I don't how far it has come > in the process. Looking forward to it. Regards -Nath From n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.or.jp Sat Dec 7 08:28:43 1996 From: n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.or.jp (n-iyanag at ppp.bekkoame.or.jp) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 17:28:43 +0900 Subject: [Q] _nek_ in middle-Iranian Message-ID: <161227027397.23782.15336416431795998575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am reading an article by Mario Bussagli, "Royaute, Guerre et Fecondite", Revue de l'Histoire des Religions, tome CXL, No 2 Oct-dec. 1951, p. 129-154. It is a very learned article, having many non indological or buddhological references or allusions that I don't understand well. There is especially a passage that I would like to understand, but I can't because it contains a reference to an Iranian word. Here it is (p. 149 and n. 3-4) (I'm sorry, I quote this passage in French): ...Or l'Inde connait Suurya, le Soleil, dont le culte a ete particulierement repandu et important dans le N.-O., au point que pendant longtemps, dans une grande partie de la peninsule indienne, le dieu est represente portant le vetement caracteristique de ces regions [n. 3: Cf. Foucher, La Vieille route de l'Inde de Bactres a Taxila, II, p. 266 et n. 7 (p. 268)]. Mais Suurya a pres de lui Suuriyaa, deesse homonyme, et des epouses qui sont Nik.subhaa et Raj~nii. Si l'on admet l'etymologie que Scheftelowitz a proposee pour le premier de ces deux noms (moyen-iran. _nek_ + sanscr. _'subhaa_), non seulement on aurait ici l'indice d'une influence iranienne dans le cycle de Suurya, mais on assisterait a la constitution d'un couple dont la composante feminine aurait des caracteres assez proches de ceux d'Aarmati [n. 4: I. Sheftelowitz, Die Mithra-Religion der Indoskythen und ihre Beziehung zum Saura und Mithras-Kult, _Acta Orientalia_, XI, p. 304 et n.], c'est-a-dire des rapports avec la terre et la fecondite. ... I don't have access to the article of Sheftelowitz (and anyway, I don't read German). I would be very gratefule if someone could be so kind as to teach me the sense of this word "nek" in Middle-Iranian. I would appreciate also any thought about this article (of Bussagli), or the worship of Suurya in the North-West of India during the Kushan period, etc. On the other hand, I would appreciate any thought or information concerning the relationship between the bodhisattva Maitreya and the Iranian Mithra. Thank you very much in advance. Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Dec 8 20:24:25 1996 From: keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu (katherine eirene ulrich) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 96 14:24:25 -0600 Subject: Assamese and Bengali programs Message-ID: <161227027409.23782.13146654051004500872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone asked me where in the US or Canada they might be able to study Assamese or Bengali. I know Chicago has Bengali, but don't know what other schools offer it; nor do I know of any school that offers Assamese. Does anyone any schools that offer these languages, or where I might find this information? Thanks in advance, Katherine Ulrich (keulrich at midway.uchicago.edu) From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Dec 9 06:50:11 1996 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 96 22:50:11 -0800 Subject: definition of sAmAnAdhikara.nya Message-ID: <161227027415.23782.13509771251499918599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, John Dunne wrote: [...] > 'sabdaanaa.m tv ekasmin prav.rrttes tadvaacyaanaam aikaatmyabhrama.h / > > This in many ways summarizes the basic point of his comments; that is, > although saamaanaadhikara.nya might appear to require that the vaacya of > the expressions in question be identical, it would be mistake to assume > any such identity. In making this point, Vaacaspati re-affirms the > realist ontology to which he is committed. Not always. The same Vaacaspati, in his Bhaamatii, uses saamaanaadhikara.nya in a very different way, to come to advaita conclusions. tat and tvam in tattvamasi refer to the same entity, i.e. brahman, although usually conceived of as limited by different adjuncts. Here, Vaacaspati has given up the contention that it is a bhrama to insist on aikaatmya. To clarify, within each work of his, Vaacaspati is faithful to the school he is expounding, so it is not as if Vaacaspati is himself committed to a realist ontology. Rather, nyaaya is committed to a realist ontology, and Vaacaspati is being faithful to nyaaya in the taatparya-.tiikaa. > > For the purposes of this discussion, what is interesting about the above > quoted statement is simply that Vaacaspati appears to presume the same > type of gloss given by Kar.nakagomin, Raamaanuja, and so forth. > Note however, that even Raamaanuja accepts that tat and tvam refer to the same entity in tattvamasi, although he explains it in terms of a 'sariira-'saariirin analogy, instead of the limiting adjuncts of Advaita Vedaanta. It seems to me that saamaanaadhikara.nya is used in many different ways depending upon context, and depending upon the intention of the author. I do not think that the majority of Indian philosophers used it in only in one particular way. For example, even advaitins, e.g. Sure'svara, notice that normally saamaanaadhikara.nya requires a sambandha (e.g. of vi'seshana and vi'seshya) between the two terms (as in 'sukladadhi), but reject this requirement in favor of a jahadajahallaksha.na which is possible on a different application of saamaanaadhikara.nya, on the grounds that no such sambandha can be postulated between tat and tvam. Specifically, this interpretation requires a real identity of the two vaacyas, which is the only relation between "tat" and "tvam", at least in Advaita Vedaanta. > Birgit also suggests that "co-referentiality" is the best translation, > but I am not particularly satisfied with it. The problem is that this > translation raises the entire issue of "reference," which, given its uses > in Euro-american philosophy, can be quite misleading in the Indian > context. On Vaacaspati's Naiyaayika ontology, for example, what would be > the "referents" of the two terms in the expression *'sukladadhi*? On > Vaacaspati's view, one should argue that the "referents" of the terms > must be distinct. Hence, it would be a mistake to say that both of these > terms "refer" to the dravya, but on the most straightforward > interpretation of "reference" as it is used these days, this is what the > translation "co-referentiality" would suggest. > > The advantage of "co-instantiation" is that it points to the manner in > which the vast majority of Indian philosophers conceived of > saamaanaadhikara.nya; that is, it is a state of affairs in which two > entities are somehow instantiated in the same locus such that the 'sabda > for those entities are applicable to (or "refer to") that same locus. A "Co-instantiation" seems to require that the two entities that are instantiated in the same locus are necessarily different. The question also arises whether the two entities being instantiated are the same as or different from this locus, and so on. This would clearly be misleading in a discussion of Advaita Vedaanta, which certainly accounts for a great number of Indian philosophers, probably more than most other schools. To me, it seems that saamaanaadhikara.nya plays the role of co-instantiation in some contexts and co-referentiality in others. How about coordinate predication? I have seen this used in translations of both Advaita and Vi'sish.taadvaita works by Indian authors. S. Vidyasankar From dran at cs.albany.edu Mon Dec 9 14:11:21 1996 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 09:11:21 -0500 Subject: Q: earliest Muslims in South Asia Message-ID: <161227027406.23782.17211408973052119117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Two years ago, in conversation with a Hindi writer whose works I am > currently translating, I was told that there was evidence on the Malabar > coast of a mosque that dates to the seventh century. He may have been referring to the mosque in Kodungalloor in Kerala, which is supposed to have been built by the Chera king `Cheramaan PerumaaL.' Indeed the mosque is called `cheramaan jumaa masjid' even now. The mosque was formerly in a traditional Keralite looking building until it was remodelled several years ago. (My home town, Chendamangalam, is very close to Kodungalloor.) Narendran P.S. The legend among Malayali Muslims is that the last king of the Chera line (referred to as `paLLivaaNa perumaaL') converted to Islam and went on the traditional pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina. From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au Sun Dec 8 23:51:04 1996 From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 10:51:04 +1100 Subject: Q: earliest Muslims in South Asia Message-ID: <161227027413.23782.6561348771238027863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are inscriptions from the western sea borard of Indi a- especially around Konkan of the tenth century where some of the trustees for the temple donations of Silahara kings were muslims - to name , ali, mohammad etc. ( see Mirashi edited inscriptions of Silahara kings) Also, one of the viceroys/generals of the Rashtrakutas was a musllim. Then there are some recent inscriptions discoverd around the Bombay area - Dombivli is one of the places of discovery that I can remember that give muslim names as kngs/subhedars - again of a quite early date, the precise date escapes me, but can be found in a collection of inscriptions edited by Prof. Deo and published by the Maharashtra govt. Also I seem to recall refernces of treatises on the navigation in the Indian Ocean written by someone with an islamic name who actually hailed from gujerat - again the dates are quite early. Sugandha At 02:57 7/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Two years ago, in conversation with a Hindi writer whose works I am >currently translating, I was told that there was evidence on the Malabar >coast of a mosque that dates to the seventh century. I was told that the >standard line -- the earliest Muslims in South Asia were Arab settlers in >Sind around 711 -- is old and now superseded information. Has anyone else >heard this? During that conversation two years ago, when I asked for >proof, I didn't get any, but I have no reason to sense that I was being >deliberately misled. > >Gratefully, >Bob Hueckstedt > >Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages >Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba >Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada >http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies >fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 > > > > >?From 71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM 09 96 Dec EST 00:36:11 Date: 09 Dec 96 00:36:11 EST From: Swami Gitananda <71203.2563 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Significance of crossroads Does anybody know what the sources are for the specific connotations attached to crossroads? I'm thinking, for example, of how in the cAturmAsya sacrifice, the tryambakeSTi must be offered at a crossroads. It's easy to see why Tryambaka would be dealt with outside the sacrificial enclosure, but why precisely at a crossroads? Is it because it's a sort of no-man's land? Thank you in advance for any leads, Swami Gitananda Agama Research Centre From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Mon Dec 9 16:43:44 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 11:43:44 -0500 Subject: help with Dhammapada.t.thakathaa Message-ID: <161227027411.23782.4357279210769689613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wonder if someone who has the Dhammapada.t.thakathaa next to their keyboard would help me. There is a reference at DhpA ii.155, bottom of the page = translation Buddhist Legends (Burlingame 1921): ii.194 = story vi.8, which reads in English as follows: In former times, reborn as 500 asses, they took leavings of liquor made of the moist juices of the grape, drunk by 500 thoroughbreds of Sindh, and kneaded the leavings with water and straining them through towels, they drank this juiceless, vile drink, called "strained water." And straightaway becoming as drunk as though they had drunk wine, they went about shouting. : From drinking strained water, a juiceless, vile drink, the asses became drunk. / But the Sindh horses which drank the choice liquor did not become drunk. I wonder if someone would be kind and generous enough to provide me the Pali text for this (along with the line numbers in the PTS edition, or the reference to whatever edition you quote from). With deep gratitude, in advance, Jonathan Silk From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Mon Dec 9 08:04:59 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 13:34:59 +0530 Subject: Ramana Ashram Message-ID: <161227027417.23782.11931244864766164460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know whether Ramana Ashram has an E-Mail address? If not maybe someone is aware of a fax-number or so? Thanks Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in Mon Dec 9 09:22:35 1996 From: ysyoung at giaspn01.vsnl.net.in (Shin Young Yoo) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 14:22:35 +0500 Subject: painted goat Message-ID: <161227027419.23782.2983984636694418287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Bemmann asked <> We read a passage in the paali matakabhatta-jaataka: eko ti.n.nam vedaanam paaraguu disaapaamokkho aacariyo brahma.no matakabhattam dassamiiti ekam e.lakam gaahaapetvaa antevaasike aaha "taataa idam e.lakam nadim netvaa nhaapetvaa ka.n.the maalam parikkhipitvaa pa~cangulikam datvaa ma.n.detvaa aanethaati. Robert Chalmers translated [The Jaataka, vol. 1, pp. 51-53]: A Brahman, who was versed in the Three Vedas and world-famed as a teacher, being minded to offer a Feast for the Dead, had a goat fetched and said to his pupils, "my sons, take this goat down to the river and bathe it, then hang a garland round its neck, give it a pottle of grain to eat, groom it a bit, and bring it back." However, a problem here is how to interpret the word 'pa~ncangulika' (translated above as a pottle of grain) which is used in the sense 'a space of five finger-breadths' else-where in the paali canon. But I remember that one of my teachers once explained it as 'a mark with a coloured palm.' I hope this may be useful for you. yours, Young From apandey at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 9 23:53:51 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 15:53:51 -0800 Subject: Hyphenation patterns and ITRANS/SKT/etc. Message-ID: <161227027422.23782.9934433408795162339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I would like to know whether anyone here who uses ITRANS/SKT/etc. has found a successful method which allows for automatic hyphenation of devanaagarii in the LaTeX environment. I frequently am presented with "overfull boxes" due to extra-long Sanskrit sentences running off into the margin, and would like to know if there is any easier way to prevent this from happening rather than introducing line breaks throughout the sentences. Thanks. Regards, Anshuman Pandey --- Anshuman Pandey | apandey at u.washington.edu | University of Washington "Life is an impossible scheme, and love an imperceptible dream. Face the facts, that's what it's always been. Relax. What you see is what you've seen, What you get is a new philosophy." From Converse at sesame.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 9 16:14:58 1996 From: Converse at sesame.demon.co.uk (Converse at sesame.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 18:14:58 +0200 Subject: Transliteration standards Message-ID: <161227027420.23782.15507430152487597262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGists, I got this announcment concerning a mailing-list for transliteration standards through another list I'm subscribing to. I thought it may be of interest to people on this list. Regards B.Philip Jonsson CUT HERE! ------------------------------------------------------- Transliteration standards I am the new chair of the International Organization for Standardization subcommittee responsible for transliteration (ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages). The new secretary (Evangelos Melagrakis from Greece) and I hope to make it far more visible and far more relevant to end users than it has been in the past. To enable this, an electronic mailing list for ISO/TC46/SC2 (tc46sc2 at elot.gr) has now been set up by ELOT (the Greek national standards body). We hope this list will attract researchers and scientists who can add useful information which might assist in developing standards on the Conversion of Written Languages. We also hope to have an emphasis on issues of using computers to do appropriate transformations necessary in automated transliteration, and also look forward to having regular contact with those on this list who are interested in such issues. There are quite a few with an interest in transliteration in library catalogues on the list, but there are other potential users of transliteration too. People are now begining to realist that transliteration may have more indirect impact on other aspects of multilingual computing than they had previously realised. There are now over 200 subscribers to tc46sc2 at elot.gr, from 38 countries and territories - one of the most international lists around. One major advantage of email is the ability to involve far more people in the development of a common purpose than were involved before, to get user feedback, and expert opinion from various sources. Subscribing to the mailing list for ISO/TC46/SC2 In order to join the list you should be actively involved in using transliteration systems, or in developing transliteration systems, and should be prepared to contribute to the list from time to time. If you meet these criteria, and wish to join the list, send an email to majordomo at elot.gr with this message in the body of the text: subscribe tc46sc2 your at email.address (but with your real email address replacing the string your at email.address). To find out further commands you can use, send the command "help" as the text of an email either to tc46sc2-request at elot.gr or to: majordomo at elot.gr To unsubscribe, send the command "unsubscribe" instead, omitting the "quotes" marks in both cases. This will tell you how to obtain copies of past messages etc., and other useful features. Once you are subscribed, you can send messages to tc46sc2 at elot.gr and receive messages from other members of the list. Please reply where possible to the list as a whole, so that all can benefit: using the Group Reply function (pressing G on some email software) is the simplest way to achieve this. Other members will also be interested to see who else is joining the list, so it is useful to send a brief introduction (say, one or two short paragraphs) to tc46sc2 at elot.gr at the outset, saying what languages, scripts and other things you are involved in. That is the most likely way to stimulate others to write on the subjects you are interested in! You should also inform your national standards body to express your interest in participating in this list. I can provide some information on details of your national member body of ISO, if you send me an email requesting this. I look forward to seeing new participants on this list. Please feel free to forward this to anyone else who may be interested in transliteration standardisation issues, and to send any queries about the list to me. Yours sincerely John Clews -- John Clews (Chairman of ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages) SESAME Computer Projects, 8 Avenue Rd. * email: Converse at sesame.demon.co.uk Harrogate, HG2 7PG, United Kingdom * telephone: +44 (0) 1423 888 432 From thompson at jlc.net Mon Dec 9 22:59:49 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 96 18:59:49 -0400 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027424.23782.15956746950354935504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to respond to the recent suggestions made by Peter Claus, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann, and Lars Martin Fosse, comparing the "aryan invasion" with (1) "the English Invasion of India" [Peter], (2) "the spread of Spanish in Latin America" [Luis], and (3) "the Indo-European expansion in Europe" [Lars Martin]. Such comparisons, I think, are valuable, since in the light of these better known "invasions," the Aryan "invasion" might be put into better perspective. Because our ignorance of the aryan invasion is so great, all kinds of ludicrous assertions have been made, and accepted as more or less equally valid with more reasonable assertions, as if there were no way to distinguish between ludicrous and reasonable claims. Archaeologists who can find "no evidence" of an aryan invasion, and who, because of a lack of interest in the linguistic evidence, decide that there isn't any [think of Jim Shaffer], should pay particular attention to what Peter calls "ethno-archeology." It does not make any difference how large or small was the "army" that brought English to the Indian sub-continent. The English brought it, unambiguously, and it has unambiguously taken hold. Likewise, there can be no doubt that Spanish has taken hold in Latin America, the result of a combination of "military conquest" and "intermarriage," to be sure. How large or small the "army" is irrelevant; the fact remains that the incursion took place. Furthermore, Indigenous-Aryan theorists who perceive ethnocentrism in the claims of IE- expansion theorists, must take into account the claims of these IE-expansion theorists regarding the incursions they posit into their own European nations; such claims cannot be motivated by ethnocentrism]. As a matter of fact Sanskrit "took hold" in the northern portion of the Indian sub-continent at some hard to determine time. But it did in fact *take hold*, which is to say that it wasn't there "in the beginning" [the genetic relationship of Skt. with other IE languages makes for only two options: either "into India" or "out of India" -- and the latter has nothing to support it, except for crude nationalist fantasy]. So the fact that archaeologists can find "no trace" of the IE incursion into the Indian sub-continent is a function of the crudity of their instruments of measure. Linguists are, it seems to me, in a much better position than archaeologists to say, with confidence, that Sanskrit was brought into the Indian sub-continent, and "took hold" there, for better or worse. Sincerely, George Thompson p.s. this post was sent to the list several days ago, but never surfaced. So I send it again. From l.m.fosse at internet.no Tue Dec 10 09:47:48 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 10:47:48 +0100 Subject: Religious affiliation in India Message-ID: <161227027426.23782.8238003433633475765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear netters, next semester I am going to give a serious of lectures on Hinduism at the university of Oslo. In that connection I am looking for sources giving data on religious affiliation in India. E.g.: How many Muslims, how many Hindus, how many Sikhs, Christians, etc but also, if possible, how many members of the major directions of Hinduism, e.g. how many Shaivas, how many Vaishnavas, how many followers of this or that bhakti sect etc. I would be very grateful for any bibliographic information. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 11 01:49:29 1996 From: jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu (jsiva at uclink3.berkeley.edu) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 17:49:29 -0800 Subject: e-mail for E Valentine Daniel Message-ID: <161227027429.23782.13900819950700504467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Can anyone give me the contact information (e-mail and/or phone#) for E Valentine Daniel? I heard he just moved to Columbia University but he is not listed in Columbia's on-line directory. Any information much apperciated. Thanks Jeyanthy From a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Tue Dec 10 18:09:11 1996 From: a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 19:09:11 +0100 Subject: Q: Norman fonts Message-ID: <161227027428.23782.6382092498332693008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am searching for Devanagari fonts for Windows 95. Can anybody help me to find them ? It would be very good to have True Type ones. Thanh you. From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Dec 11 15:16:45 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 10:16:45 -0500 Subject: Retroflexes (continued) Message-ID: <161227027431.23782.7994111768490293069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Some of the references I need to look up have gone missing from the libraries more accessible to me. These relate only to an alternate theory of Dravidian influence on Indo-Aryan. So it seems better to complete my objection to `retroflexes are due to Dravidians mispronouncing OIA' theory, deferring the formulation of an alternate theory to a later time.] How did the Dravidians manage to preserve phonemic value of aspiration, even though aspiration is not found in proto-Dravidian? Colin Masica, `Indo-Aryan languages' states that aspiration is not phonemic in Sinhalese and Maldivian. Given the geographic situation, these are likely to be most subject to Dravidian influence. On the other hand, Pali shows little evidence of loss of aspiration. So how did Dravidians, who had such a hard time with alveolars because they did not exist in their mother tongue, and ended up changing them into retroflexes, manage to preserve aspirated stops? ----------- Finally, I would like to address the argument that North Dravidian may not have preserved alveolar stops at the time of the arrival of Indo-Aryans because modern North Dravidian languages do not have them. This seems to enjoy some vogue, so it seems to worthwhile to address it in a public post. I have already alluded to the weakness of this argument: North Dravidian (and most of the Central Dravidian) languages are said to have merged n/_n and .n into one phoneme, given as `n' in DEDR. Apparently, the retroflex pronunciation of .n is preserved only in the cluster .n.t (pronounced as .n.d). If we wish to conclude that proto North Dravidian did not have alveolars because they are not present in modern dialects, we must, a fortiori conclude that proto North Dravidian did not preserve retroflex nasal .n. This is fatal to the theory that retroflexes in IA are due to Dravidian substratum. After all, in Sanskrit, retroflexion of nasal n occurs in more contexts than retroflexion of non-nasals. Incidentally, the fact that North Dravidian (and much of Central Dravidian) merges n/_n and .n throws an unexpected light on the statements in Aitreya Aranyaka 3.2.6 about .n and .s. It may well have been the North Dravidians who were changing the original .n of rks to n! [Incidentally, .Rkpraati"saakhya 14.19 mentions mistakes in pronunciation of aspitates. But this never did catch on. Why?] There are a few other minor points: North Dravidian languages show different outcomes of -t-, -_t- and -.t-. So no two of them could have merged at any point. [The change -_t_t- => -tt- is found in South Dravidian also: it is common in colloquial Tamil.] There are Central Dravidian languages which have a common outcome for -.t- and -_t-, namely Gondi, Pengo, Konda, Manda and Kuwi, with partial merging in Kui. But the outcome is palatalized in Pengo, and Manda, and partially palatalized in Kuwi. Kui palatalizes -.t-, and partially palatalizes -_t-. Konda changes -.t- and -_t- to -_r-, the outcome of -_t- in Tamil and Malayalam also. Gondi has several varieties of r as the outcomes of -.t- and -_t-. [By palatal, I mean such as c, j, y or a further change to s, and not apico-palatals.] We would need to consider which are more likely to palatalized, retroflexed or unretroflexed apicals. It seems to me that the latter would be more likely. In that case, we need to consider the possibility of loss of intervocalic >retroflex< stops in Dravidian dialects, due to being merged with with alveolars into a single non-retroflexed apical series. Given these considerations, simple assertion that North Dravidian had retroflexes but not alveolars is unconvincing. Such an argument needs systematic consideration of historical evolution of the phonology of Dravidian languages, paying attention to the whole phonemic system. To talk about outcomes of -_t- without also considering what happened to dentals and retroflexes and the nasals is methodologically faulty. Furthermore, if we want to assert that retroflexes are due to Dravidian substratum, we cannot use that conclusion to date the changes in Dravidian phonology. That simply begs the question. Reports of the loss or nonuse of alveolars are also incoorect: A minimal pair distinguishing -_n- and -.n- is `pa_ni', dew vs `pa.ni', service/work, to bow to (`pa.ni' in the sense of speak, give orders, does not seem occur in Modern Tamil). [As Telegu merges, -n/_n- and -.n-, it is possible that -_n- is missing in the northernmost dialects of Tamil. But it is certainly present in Madurai area, and I think in Trichi area as well.] Tamil also uses _n to transcribe intervocalic n in English words. Thus Germany would be written as `jerma_ni' (`cerma_ni' is the writer wishes to stick to the `pure Tamil' alphabet) and not as `jerma.ni'. It is true that Alveolar t and d are transcribed as .t. But this is because Tamil does not preserve -_t- as a stop. It is a two-flap r (explaining the transcription R in ITRANS) in the `learned' pronunciation, and a simple r in colloquial pronunciation. -_t_t- is _tR in learned pronunciation and tt in colloquial. In nt and nd, the required assimilation rules then force retroflexes. But, apparently, not for everyone. Just out of curiosity, I checked Tamil novels that I found at the Columbus Public Library and selected one (by its cover :-) that I thought was most likely to contain trasncriptions of English sentences and words. This was `varappirasaatam' by Hemaa Aa_nandatiirta_n. Here is a sample (using Anthony Stone's suggestions for transliteration; in particular, :e/:o are the *short* vowels): yuu ke_n.t sii truu ta .t:elipo_n (you can't see through the telephone). [p7] paarti mai_nas pip.tii_n iikv:els .tv:e_n.tipaiv (forty minus fifteen equals twenty-five). [p9] :o_n mi_ni.t (one minute) [p11]. Not only are word final and intervocalic n of English transcribed by _n, even nt is being transcribed by _n.t! (But for some reason, the use of the digraph _kp is avoided for f). Interesting side-note: Some varieties of Jaffna Tamil are said to pronounce -_t- as a stop. Speakers of these dialects apparently prefer to transcribe t and d with _t. A post in the Usenet group soc.culture.tamil, that mentioned this gave the example of Tolstoy, which was written (in ASCII graphics, which I will not reproduce) as `RaalsRaay' (or perhaps `RaalsRai'?). It sounds funny to my ears, but then I have never been to Jaffna. ------- Finally, there seems to be a belief in a `mystical connection' between retroflexes and South Asia. But there is no such mystical connection. By now, most Indologists know that some Swedish dialects have retroflex stops. What may not be so well known is the fact that retroflexes are also found in some Sicilian dialects and in some American Indian languages. The later also distinguish dental and retroflex sounds at the phonemic level. (`Phonetics', B Malmberg, Dover 1963, pp.41--42.) ------- To sum up, the objections are (1) The history of Dravidian phonology is either is ignored or used in a piecemeal fashion, and without full attention to factual accuracy. (2) No explanation is given for the preservation of aspirates by the Dravidians who are said to have been unable to pronounce the apicals, even though aspiration too is not found in proto-Dravidian (3) Appeal is made to some sort of `mystical' connection between retroflexes and South Asia, even though retroflexes are found in Europe and the New World. -Nath Nath Rao (nathrao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Wed Dec 11 20:58:15 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 10:58:15 -1000 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027435.23782.13600920081480178425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > S. Kichenassamy wrote: > > > >There is a very similar story I was told as a child (we are Tamils): A > >king cut himself and his chief minister applauded at the good news---the > >minister was of course immediately jailed... Later on, while traveling, > >the king was caught by a tribe of cannibals who were looking for a > >physically perfect king for their purposes. To their dismay, the king had > >this small wound...and they had to release him. Is there proof that the > >above is of foreign origin? > > I don't think you can prove that the story given above is of foreign origin. > But the idea that the king should physically perfect is also found among > ancient peoples in Europe. In addition, he should be more handsome than In this case, though, the point is that the *sacrificial victim* has to be physically perfect. Yes, this story ("ellAm nallathaRkE", i.e., "All is for the best") is well known (it was in one of my Tamil schoolbooks). Best regards, Raja. From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 11 21:30:55 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 13:30:55 -0800 Subject: Assamese and Bengali programs Message-ID: <161227027437.23782.16280320790008792011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With reference to Katherine Ulrich's query about Bengali, I may note that an intensive first year Bengali course has been offered, and I anticipate, will be offered in the future during the summer sessions at the University of Washington in Seattle. For further information contact the Dept. of Asian Languages & Literature, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195. The department's chair is Michael Shapiro . Frank Conlon University of Washington From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 11 22:35:38 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 14:35:38 -0800 Subject: e-mail for E Valentine Daniel Message-ID: <161227027447.23782.10016904018498950009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It may well be that Val Daniel has accepted a post at Columbia, but so far as I know he is still at the University of Michigan. At least I can suggest that you try the following address: Frank Conlon University of Washington On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Jeyanthy Siva wrote: > Hello, > Can anyone give me the contact information (e-mail and/or phone#) for E > Valentine Daniel? I heard he just moved to Columbia University but he is > not listed in Columbia's on-line directory. > Any information much apperciated. Thanks > Jeyanthy > > > > From bpj at netg.se Wed Dec 11 14:44:26 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 16:44:26 +0200 Subject: Representing diacritics in 7-bit ASCII Message-ID: <161227027440.23782.6339731120081015224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (This post should be viewed in a mono-width font like Courier.) (A .gif showing the printed characters is attatched.) REPRESENTING DIACRITICS IN 7-BIT ASCII by B.PHILIP JONSSON INTRODUCTION Some time ago my attention was drawn to the severe difficulty of representing the diacritics found in many orthographies as well as scholarly and bibliographic transcription-schemes. Even users of 8-bit systems must have access to special fonts to write and view such special characters; these fonts are hard to obtain, and there have as yet emerged no useful standards for the encoding of character-sets outside the orthographies of European languages. The different 8-bit systems (e.g. Macintosh and Windows) don't even agree wrt the encoding of diacriticized letters found in "major" languages like Spanish, French and German. The solution then, must be to use linear strings of 7-bit ASCII-characters to represent diacriticised letters. There has been quite some experimenting, e.g. with the assignment of separate values to upper-case and lower-case letters. While such solutions may be applicable in outright re-encoding, such as phonetic/phonemic transcription, many people don't feel that they are very appealing even in that context, being kludgey and error-prone. For purposes of philological and bibliographical transcription and transliteration such solutions are hardly practicable, mainly for two reasons: A. It is generally desired that the computerized transliteration/transcription should visually resemble the usual/traditional printed transliteration/transcription. B. It is usually desirable that the normal conventions wrt capitalization can be preserved. The following represents my attempt at achieving this in a systematic way, with the help of the punctuation characters and other special characters found within the standard 7-bit ASCII. The scheme makes heavy use of what I call THE SMILEY-PRINCIPLE: most of the diacritics should be viewed as if rotated 90 degrees -- mostly counter-clockwise. DELIMITERS In order to distinguish diacriticized text from surrounding ordinary text, it should be enclosed in delimiters as shown here. Note that the characters used as delimiters are NOT used as diacritics NAME CHARACTERS FUNCTION, PRINTED EQUIVALENTS underscore _ _ italics, emphasis (1) braces { } transliteration, bolds brackets [ ] transcription, bold italics asterisk * unattested form/spelling/word (2) (1) The underscore {_} can not be used as a diacritic because it is needed as a delimiter to indicate italicization/emphasis -- necessarily so since {/} is used as a diacritic. Its use e.g. for macron or underline would unnecessary violate the "smiley-principle", while not being very obvious within the premises of this system. It is recommended that _ _ is used to delimit strings that do NOT contain any diacritics, though punctuation marks are probably best kept outside the delimiters. (2) The asterisk{*} can not be used to indicate bold style/strong emphasis, since it is used to indicate unattested forms; use capitalization instead. PUNCTUATION MARKS Almost all the Roman punctuation marks found in 7-bit ASCII are used as diacritics in this system. In order to distinguish their use as punctuation marks from their use as diacritics, true punctuation marks should as far as possible be kept outside the delilimiter characters described below. If this is not possible or practical, true punctuation marks should be delimited by ONE PRECEEDING and TWO SUCCEDING spaces (ASCII 32), e.g.: {a/ : a-acute , a: : a-umlaut} Conversely diacritics should always be kept adjacent to their base-letters and not separated from them with any spaces. DIACRITICS NAME FUNCTION SYMBOL EXAMPLE USED... macron length | a| with vowels breve (above) shortness ( a( " " curve (below) non-syllabicness ) )i " " acute stress, rise, (length) / a/ " " grave half-stress, fall \ a\ " " circumflex rise-fall, length > a> " " umlaut/ fronting, centralized : a: " " diaeresis syllable separator (3) : e: " " over-ring rounding % a% " " plus rised + e+ minus lowered - e- tilde nasalization $ a$ underdot (4) retraction, retroflex . .t .e double underdot murmur, approximant ; ;d ;r wedge (post)alveolar < s< underline (5) mid = =t with consonants curve (below) fronted ) )t " " cross (6) fricative # t# d# " " hook/cedilla palatalization , ,c " " acute apical / s/ " " grave laminal (7) \ s\ " " circumflex laminal, (post)alveolar > s> " " ring voiceless % d% " " aleph glottal(ized) (8) ! t! ayin pharyngeal(ized) (8) ? t? inverted apostrophe unreleased ` t` JUNCTURES ligature ^ a^e {a^esc} separator ~ t~h _pot~hole_ syllable-break ' (9) [kh&/p'l] "couple" SPECIAL CHARACTERS schwa (10) neutral vowel & [s<&va/] "schwa" eng (10) velar nasal @ [e@] "eng" aleph glottal stop (8) ! t! ayin pharyngeal glide (8) ? t? (3) strictly not needed if the curve below is consistently used to indicate non-syllabic vowels. (4) The less common _overdot_ may be rendered by {^.}, e.g. {m^.}. In languages where it does not contrast with underdot (like Maltese) {.c} etc may be used. (5) rendered with {=} to preclude confusion with {|} , written over a letter. (6) that is to represent the crossing over of the stem or body of a letter, like the Icelandic/Old English "edh" {d#}. It may also be used with vowels, e.g. Danish and Norwegian {o#}; furthermore {i#} may be used as a convention for Turkish undotted {i}. (7) Laminals have sometimes been indicated with a circumflex . The use of the grave, parallell to that of the acute for apicals, has been introduced in order to disambiguate, since the circumflex is used in Esperanto to indicate palatalization/postalveolarization. (8) That is {!} and {?} are used both to indicatediacritics and for separate sounds. If need is felt to disambiguate the use as diacritic the ligature {^} may be used: {t^!}, {d^?}. If the use of {!} and {?} in these functions is felt to be too misleading wrt their usual punctuation values, {'} and {~} respectively might be used instead, but then the normal uses of the latter must both be replaced by the cumbersome double-hyphen {--}. (9) This will also serve to indicate syllabic vowels: {k'm'tom}, {sa.msk'r'ta} -- or {sa.msk.rta}, or indeed {sa.mskr.ita}. (10) The sound called schwa (neutral vowel) is often represented by @ on the Internet. That is an unfortunate practice, since the latter symbol is derived from {at} -- indeed its name is of course "at", while the usual symbol for schwa, rotated {e}, is derived from {e}. Imo it would be better to represent schwa by the & sign, derived from {et} -- being a ligature of the letters in the Latin word for "and". It would then perhaps be natural to use the symbol @ to indicate the vowel of the English word "at" -- as I indeed often do in phonetic transcriptions --, but since there are already means to represent the {a^e} ligature I feel that @ may instead be used to represent another phonetic symbol often found in philological transcriptions (e.g. of Avestan and Germanic runes), namely the eng-character. It is arguably the case, if arguments be needed, that the @ symbol, especially as it appears in small-size bitmap XXXXXX X X X XX X X XXXX X XXXXXXX , will if rotated 90 degrees XXXXXX X X X XX X X XX X X XXX Bear some resemblance to the usual eng-character X XXXXX XX X X X X X X X X X XX ------------------------------------------------ December 11, 1996 B.Philip Jonsson [END] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 7bit_diac.gif Type: image/gif Size: 8425 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu Wed Dec 11 22:35:08 1996 From: dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu (Douglas R. Brooks) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 17:35:08 -0500 Subject: Population of S.Asians In USA Message-ID: <161227027445.23782.10436638507416868602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the population of South Asians in the United States? Is there a place where these statistics are documented? Thanks all. Douglas Brooks From bpj at netg.se Wed Dec 11 15:43:03 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 17:43:03 +0200 Subject: CONLANG: Representing diacritics in 7-bit ASCII Message-ID: <161227027433.23782.14341560374545371915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 16:07 11.12.1996 +0000, Edmund Grimley-Evans wrote: >I see no mention in your report of Latin-1 (an established standard >8-bit character set) or SAMPA (http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/). >These things are worth mentioning. 8-bit was not the subject of this, so the whole ISO 8859 1-9 is out of topic, as you would say. Moreover this is not a "report", but a draft scheme, which you would have known if you actually read it through -- but you can hardly have managed to do that carefully in so short a time as since I posted it. Philip From athr at loc.gov Wed Dec 11 22:43:32 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 17:43:32 -0500 Subject: e-mail for E Valentine Daniel Message-ID: <161227027448.23782.10703297424119991401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Jeyanthy Siva wrote: > Hello, > Can anyone give me the contact information (e-mail and/or phone#) for E > Valentine Daniel? I heard he just moved to Columbia University but he is > not listed in Columbia's on-line directory. > Any information much apperciated. Thanks > Jeyanthy His email address (recently picked up from the Peirce list) is evd at umich.edu. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 12 02:05:23 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 18:05:23 -0800 Subject: Religious affiliation in India Message-ID: <161227027456.23782.8158613705656555685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, At 10:13 PM 12/11/96 GMT, you wrote: >Dear netters, > >next semester I am going to give a serious of lectures on Hinduism at the >university of Oslo. I hope they won't be too serious! Happy holidays, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From magier at columbia.edu Thu Dec 12 03:44:31 1996 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: Assamese and Bengali programs Message-ID: <161227027459.23782.18069763518138545102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Someone asked me where in the US or Canada they might be able to study > Assamese or Bengali. . Columbia University also regularly offers Bengali. David Magier From bpj at netg.se Wed Dec 11 21:02:04 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 23:02:04 +0200 Subject: Representing diacritics in 7-bit ASCII Message-ID: <161227027443.23782.5106993360486906747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:22 11.12.1996 -0500, Alain LaBont/e'/ wrote: >At 16:44 96-12-11 +0200, B.Philip.Jonsson [Seeker of Useless Knowledge] wrote: >>REPRESENTING DIACRITICS IN 7-BIT ASCII >> >>by B.PHILIP JONSSON >> >> >>INTRODUCTION >> >>Some time ago my attention was drawn to the severe difficulty of >>representing the diacritics found in many orthographies as well as >>scholarly and bibliographic transcription-schemes. Even users of 8-bit >>systems must have access to special fonts to write and view such special >>characters; these fonts are hard to obtain, and there have as yet emerged >>no useful standards for the encoding of character-sets outside the >>orthographies of European languages. The different 8-bit systems (e.g. >>Macintosh and Windows) don't even agree wrt the encoding of diacriticized >>letters found in "major" languages like Spanish, French and German. > >!!!!!!!!!!! > >[Alain LaBont?] : >English does not agree either on the encoding of ASCII versus EBCDIC. This >consideration leads to sophisms (btw Latin 1 agrees with the encoding of >characters as used in Spanish, German or French!!!) One needs external >tagging of text data, even with ASCII. Furthermore fonts are not hard to >find. Fonts exist and are used by users of the languages to which they >apply. They also exist and are easy to find for scripts not in use in one's >language. Ever tried to get a font for Latinized Sanskrit, or Avestan, or Old English? They do exist, but it is hard, and then there are no universally agreed upon standards. >[Mr. Jonsson] : >>The solution then, must be to use linear strings of 7-bit ASCII-characters >>to represent diacriticised letters. > >[Alain LaBont?] : >If 7-bit means 7-bit octets (i.e. stripping 12% of the actual data out, and >that is what is being actually done in many places, as all 7-bit character >sets all use 8 bits nowadays in reality), this is not a solution, this is >the *major* [80%] source of the problem that plagues communications when >parochial English-speaking systems are involved. It is like saying that the >solution to reading a "bad" handwriting would be that the postman erase one >letter out of eight inside a sealed envelope to replace it by the postman's >annotation. > >Reduction of a character set into a smaller one is an alternative that >should be reserved to extreme cases, like morse code is reserved to cases >when radio communications links are extremely poor, weak and difficult. None >would however say that morse code is the universal solution to >communications problems. It is but a worst-case alternative, even if I >myself invented such a scheme, for worts cases indeed. That should not be >encouraged though as a way of the future. > >Alain LaBont? >Qu?bec My scheme was meant as a solution to the following problem: You sit there exchanging email of a scholarly linguistic content with other people. The only characters/glyphs you all share between you, and which can be error-proofly transmitted are these: !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijkl mnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ What, then, to do, if you are de-facto confined to this range of characters, because of incompatibility between systems, or by a system that in fact contains no other chars, if you want to convey/cite Latin script text using various traditional diacritics? The way you write your own name in your header shows that this is a real problem! I for one am tired of MIME-garbled diacriticized letters. My scheme was designed to give a representation of these traditional diacritics readily recognizable to the bare human eye under the circumstances described. It appears that I should have been more explicit at this point. Clearly all this animosity and misunderstanding results from our adressing the problems at different technical levels. I am quite savvy wrt writing-systems, glyph-forms and the history of writing and transliteration, but when it comes to (the inner life of) computers I'm as ignorant as anyones grandmother. I still think I may have something worthwhile to contribute. Maybe some of you technically savvy people could help me to get my (foreign) English language right, so that we all understand what we are talking about, before flaming me? It is curious that one should be harshly ridiculed for trying to offer simple, ad-hoc solutions to everyday problems. Best regards, hoping that this is all a misunderstanding of either of us. _ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * _ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 12 07:55:58 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 23:55:58 -0800 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027469.23782.8341688194232199889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:07 PM 12/11/96 GMT, Vidhyanath Rao wrote (Re: Lars Martin Fosse): >> 10) The enourmous transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas during >> the last 500 years >> 11) The migration of Europeans to Australia during the last 200 years. > >The last two were migrations of much smaller number of people, follwed by >a population explotion made possible by more intensive use of land by >the newcomes. This was not possible for Indo-Europeans. Indo_iranians >did not know even agriculture or wheel thrown pottery, remember :-^ Well, I don't know about North America, but agriculture was quite developed in Mesoamerica and in the Andean region several yugas before the arrival of the Spaniards. The Mayas and the Incas are just two well known examples. So I don't follow this argument about a population explosion due to a "more intensive use of land." I don't have the numbers, but there was a steady flow of Spaniards and Portuguese into Latin America for a long time, and many native inhabitants died either from war or, mainly, because of disease. Latin was the sacred language of the new religion, while Spanish and Portuguese were, in a sense, its prakrts. There are still regions where Spanish has not displaced the original languages, but it is, nevertheless, pretty much widespread. Both Spanish and Portuguese have long been the prestige languages of the area. All of this in only 500 years (although 100 years ago the situation was probably already much the same as it is now). Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Dec 11 23:05:39 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 00:05:39 +0100 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027452.23782.10897094516404269836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:18 11.12.96 GMT, you wrote: >I'd like to respond to the recent suggestions made by Peter Claus, Luis >Gonzalez-Reimann, and Lars Martin Fosse, comparing the "aryan invasion" >with (1) "the English Invasion of India" [Peter], (2) "the spread of >Spanish in Latin America" [Luis], and (3) "the Indo-European expansion in >Europe" [Lars Martin]. Let me as an addition to what I wrote myself, and what George Thompson wrote, add some biographical information. I recommend the book called "In Search of the Indo-Europeans. Language, Archaeology and Myth" by J. P. Mallory, Thames and Hudson, London 1992. Mallory is himself an archaeologist, but has a good grasp of the linguistic aspects of the problem. His meticulous presentation of the historical and archaeological facts should have a sobering effect. For those who want to delve somewhat deeper into the matter, an introduction to Indo-European (or comparative) linguistics should be consulted. Those of you who read German might enjoy reading Oswald Szemerenyi, "Einfuerung in die vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft", Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt, 1989. There is also a book by Beekes, in English and published one or two years ago, but unfortunately I do not have the bibliographical details. Those of you who are not familiar with comparative linguistics should remember that this is a branch of scholarship that has been active for more than 150 years. Indo-European languages and the sound-laws that shaped them are generelly speaking extremely well know, even if scholars may disagree about a number of details. Defending an "out-of-India" theory would be very rough going for the scholar who has a good grasp of comparative linguistics. The best background for defending such a theory seems to be ignorance. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From l.m.fosse at internet.no Wed Dec 11 23:05:41 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 00:05:41 +0100 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027450.23782.13340611211930595519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:05 11.12.96 GMT, you wrote: >> Large scale migrations have occurred quite regularly within Europe and out >> of Europe for the last 3000 years. >> >> E.g.: >> >> 1) Hittites into Asia Minor (3rd millenium B.C.?) >> 2) Indo-Aryans into Iran and India (2nd millenium B.C.) >> 3) Greek tribes into Greece (2nd millenium B.C.) >> 4) Italic tribes into Italy (2nd millenium B.C) > >These four depend on a model of the spread of IE languages which is >still the subject of heated discussions. I suggest that you check out the book by Mallory which I have recommended in another email. The details may be discussed, but apart from Renfrews attempt, not the general model. >> 5) Celtic tribes into France and Britain, followed by >> 6) Germanic tribes, reaching Scandinavia possibly 800 B.C. > >Same problem as above. From where, how, what is the hard evidence? Again, check out Mallory. >> 7) Germanic tribes into Gaul, Northern Italy, Spain and North Africa (end of >> 1st millenium B.C. until about 5-600 C.E.) >> 8) Magyar tribes into Hungary (800 C.E) >> 9) Norsemen into Northern Britain, Ireland, Hebrides, the Shetlands, >> Iceland, Greenland about 1000 C.E.) > >What was the number of settlers, versus number of raiders who came, >pillaged and left? Unfair question! We don't have a census :-) But seriously: Norse was spoken in Northern England and left its marks on modern English. It was also spoken on the Hebrides, Man, Shetland and in Ireland. Remember: We have historical records here. We know that the Norsemen settled in these areas. The same thing goes for the other migrations quoted above. >> 10) The enourmous transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas during >> the last 500 years >> 11) The migration of Europeans to Australia during the last 200 years. > >The last two were migrations of much smaller number of people, follwed by >a population explotion made possible by more intensive use of land by >the newcomes. It is true that a population explosion took place there like everywhere else. But as migrations go, I would think that the transfer of people from Europe to the Americas in the period 1500 to 1900 (about 400 years) was pretty big. From a small country like Norway, about 300,000 people left for the US in the period 1840 - 1930. The migration was, under all circumstances, big enough to make life quite miserable for the Indians, and for the Europeans to establish political control of the area. >This leaves only 5 cases out the original 11. #7 is a case of >X pushed Y who pushed Z etc. After all, that is why it took nearly >600 years for the Goths to get North Africa. It took 600 years for the Germanic tribes to get to Africa simply because the Roman Empire stood in their way and kept them back. Now what is the >chronology of Indo-Aryan `invasion'? And, remember, the Indo-Aryans had >to drive their chariots over Afghanistan. Anybody measured the speed of >chariots over mountains? As far as I remember, the chariots were only actually driven in war situations. Otherwise, they were normally disassembled and carried on ordinary carts. As for an exact chronology - well, nobody can give an exact chronology, but judging by the data from the Middle East, we may assume that they entered Northern India sometime during the second millenium B.C. Again, Mallory will give you the available details. >> Large-scale displacement of people do not happen every day, but they >> certainly do occur. > >Movements of tribes numbering in 10,000s, I will swollow. But they hardly >displaced prexisting populations. They simply inserted themselves into >the preexisting populations in all cases of yours which I consider to be >cases of established migrations. As it happens, we have documentation (Caesar) showing that as much as 368,000 people could join a trek. Caesar says: "In the Helvetian camp [after the battle between them and the Romans] documents were found written with Greek letters, where the number of those who had left home was given on a name by name basis, those who could carry arms, and also separately boys, old men and women. The total of all these were 263,000 Helvetians, 36,000 Tulingi, 14,000 Latovici, 23,000 Raurici, 32,000 Boii. Those of these who could carry arms amounted to 92,000." (De bello gallico, I,29). I don't think we should underestimate the ability of people in ancient times to move in great numbers. But normally, we don't have to look for numbers as dramatic as this. Often intruders establish themselves as a warrior aristocracy and are gradually "digested" by the locals. (As an example may serve the Mongols in China). It suffices if they have the military strength to supplant the old overlords. But then again, they don't leave many traces of their language. As for the question of archaeology vs. language, the linguistic data are in themselves sufficient to establish the theory. Archaeological data may support the theory, but as long as you don't have ancient documents or inscriptions saying "we are Indo-Europeans" or "We are not Indo-Europeans" (or some statement that amounts to the same), we should not put too much weight on archaeological data. Even in Europe it is difficult to determine correspondences between archaeological data and ethnic data. As soon as we have words, like the Indo-Aryan gods of Mitanni mentioned in a cuneiform treaty, we are on much safer ground. Best regards, Lars Martin From mmaggi at sinergia.it Thu Dec 12 00:27:02 1996 From: mmaggi at sinergia.it (mmaggi at sinergia.it) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 00:27:02 +0000 Subject: [Q] _nek_ in middle-Iranian Message-ID: <161227027454.23782.9525986318900924129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I would be very gratefule if someone could be so kind as to >teach me the sense of this word "nek" in Middle-Iranian. > >Nobumi Iyanaga >Tokyo, >Japan > Middle Persian /neek/ (written in Zoroastrian MPe. and in Manichean MPe., cf. NPe. nik) is from Old Iranian *naiba-ka-, cf. Old Persian naiba- 'beautiful, good', and means 'good, beautiful' (cf. D. N. MacKenzie, A concise Pahlavi dictionary, repr. with corrections, London 1986, p. 58). The word was borrowed into Sogdian as /neek/ 'good' (see B. Gharib, Sogdian dictionary: Sogdian, Persian, English, Tehran 1995, p. 251). Best wishes, Mauro Maggi Rome From tatelman at total.net Thu Dec 12 01:02:00 1996 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 01:02:00 +0000 Subject: Assamese and Bengali programs Message-ID: <161227027463.23782.3224961092016678956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Katherine Ulrich, I don't know of any place in Canada where one could study Bengali or Assamese (except by hiring a tutor) and I'm not at all well informed about the U.S. I do know that one of my fellow students at Oxford, Paola Tinti, studied Bengali with Dr. Sanjukta Gupta and Pali with Prof. Richard Gombrich before doing pretty extensive fieldwork among Buddhist minorities in Bangladesh. I myself have never studied Bengali with Sanjukta or any one else; I can say that Paola had only good things to say about her. From my own experience, Sanjukta knows Sanskrit and scholarship and her own traditional culture so well and is so well-disposed to students that asking almost anything is bound to be rewarding. Oxford might be a good place to do a thesis in Hinduism or Buddhism that involved the study of written Bengali sources and/or fieldwork in a Bengali-speaking region. However, if one wanted Bengali in the context of modern South Asian politics or economics, Oxford, at least the 'Sanskrit and Indian Studies Dept.', would probably not be the best choice. Having said that, the place at Oxford for modern Asian Studies is St. Anthony's College - what sort of programmes or facilities they have I don't know. Michael Aris is a fellow at St. Anthony's. He's a Tibetanist and historian of Bhutan and other Himalayan states. I don't have an e-mail adress for Sanjukta Gupta, only the following postal address: Dr. Sanjukta Gupta, The Oriental Institute, Pusey Lane, Oxford OX1 2LE, U.K. Hope this helps. Joel Tatelman. Joel Tatelman #2-293A Roncesvalles Ave. Toronto, Ontario, M6R 2M3 Canada. Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From efb3 at columbia.edu Thu Dec 12 10:10:00 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 05:10:00 -0500 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027475.23782.432113600536471002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Defending an "out-of-India" theory would be very rough > going for the scholar who has a good grasp of comparative linguistics. The > best background for defending such a theory seems to be ignorance. > There has been an extended discussion on RISA regarding this theory. I prefer to use the term "Indigenous Aryan" school, as opposed to "out-of -India" school, because most scholars in India and elsewhere contesting the status quo regarding Aryan invasions or migrations are more concerned with the indigenousness of the Aryans, as opposed to claiming that all IE's came from India. It is only when pushed to explain how the Indo-Aryan languages are connected to the other IE one's will they then argue that the linguistic evidence can be reconfigured, or reconstrued, just as easily to support an "out of India" model, once different assumptions are made, or challenged. The aim of this, as far as I can tell (at least by the more sobre supporters of this theory), is to show that the linguistic evidence can not actually exclude India, even though it can certainly not be used to prove that she is the homeland. It all boils down to Occam's razor--which case needs more special pleading. The logic is that if India cannot be excluded, then she must be allowed the status of at least a potential homeland (in which case Indigenous Aryanism is a legitimate discourse). I have chosen the "unenviable" task of writing a dissertation on ths Indigenous Aryan school. The RISA discussion ended up taking far too much time, so I hesitate to engage in another round of exchanges, but I'm compiling the section on linguistics right now, and discussion can be very helpful in ensuring one has covered all the necessary material on a topic. So, in your opinion, leaving aside archaeology and "crude nationalistic fantasies" for the moment, how exactly would linguistics eliminate the claims of the Indig. Aryan school of historians? Edwin Bryant. Columbia University. From bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Thu Dec 12 12:31:37 1996 From: bmisra at husc.harvard.edu (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 07:31:37 -0500 Subject: Harvard University Public Lecture Message-ID: <161227027489.23782.17667633060119531369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harvard University Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Outreach Committee Public Lecture --------------------------------- "INDIAN CULTURE IN THE CARIBBEAN" by Pandit Ramadheen Ramsamooj Director, Saraswati Mandiram, Dorchester, MA SATURDAY, DECEMBER 14, 3:00 PM LECTURE HALL C, HARVARD UNIVERSITY SCIENCE CENTER, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA. People from India were brought in around 1845 as indentured labors to help in the sugarcane fields. Their life and struggle in the Caribbean is the story in this lecture by a scholar from Trinidad. Pandit Ramsamooj will be introduced by Dr. Anil Sookdeo, a scholar from South Africa. The lecture is free and the public is cordially invited.. The hall is wheel-chair accessible. Coosponsored by India Association of Greater Boston. For any further information, please call (617)495-3295 or (617)864-5121. From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Dec 12 15:03:55 1996 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (john robert gardner) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 09:03:55 -0600 Subject: Statistics (was `Out of India') Message-ID: <161227027495.23782.2319474254978483348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to echo Lars Martin Fosse's sentiments re. discussions of statistical Indological research. The list's indulgence permitting, there is much value in this line of discussion. With our e-text resources, the frontier of electronic research is wide open. I am curiousif others have worked along these lines and what methodological structures presented themselves therefrom. I have been loaned a copy of a Mac program called GoldVarb, a linguistic analysis script-come-program for tracking regressions--which, I understand thus far, amount to "error patterns." Is anyone familiar with this software and/or could suggest a known quanta in the RV or ZB which might be tested along these lines? JRG At 08:42 PM 12/11/96 GMT, you wrote: >V. Rao wrote in answer to Kishore Krishna: >> >>[This thread may not be of any direct interest to most members of >>Indology. I am posting this publically because I wish to >>correct a potential misunderstanding which my previous post may >>have created. I would suggest all purely statistical discussions be >>switched to private e-mail.] > >Allow me to disagree. As long as we are discussing Indological statistics, I >think the discussion should be available to everybody who cares to follow >it. I believe it would be useful for people to know about the subject. It >might also spare us the more naive attempts at using numbers to prove >points. If the other netters don't want it, I suggest they give us a hint. > >>The general idea is that when I start using something new, I try it >>out in known situations first. If it works there, then I can think >>about using it in situations where the answer is not known. > >This is sound method and really the only way to proceed. Only if you can >show that statistical methods give good results in situations where you know >the answer in advance you will be able to use them with any degree of >confidence in situations where you don't know the answer. > >>In other words, I was not testing for interpolations in Mahabharata or >>Kumarasambhava etc., but I was testing the idea that statistical >>differences in metrical patterns of anushtub (that is half-stanzas of >>16 syllables, ending in LHLX, L=light, H=heavy, X=any) can indicate >>differences in age or authorship. > >My own experience is that metrical patterns at best only would serve to >separate a few very rather long historical periods from each other. You >cannot use it to differentiate between texts by unknown authors. Or rather: >Differences in metrical patterns may indicate that you are dealing with two >different authors, but also that you are dealing with one author who changes >his style. Stylistically, the young author and the old author are two >different persons! In Sanskrit, you have the additional problem that writers >knew thousands of shlokas by heart, and often consciously tried to imitate >the style of previous centuries. I compared some samples from Somadeva with >samples from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (using linguistic criteria) - >they were quite similar, at least as far as the criteria I used were >concerned. Somadeva did a great imitation job! To put it succinctly: You can >never be too careful when dealing with Indological statistics. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > ************************************* John Robert Gardner Obermann Center for Advanced Studies University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 319-335-4034 jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu http://vedavid.org ************************************* From garzilli at shore.net Thu Dec 12 14:20:53 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 09:20:53 -0500 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027473.23782.2165071725128841869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > > > Large scale migrations have occurred quite regularly within Europe and out > > of Europe for the last 3000 years. > > > > E.g.: > > > > 1) Hittites into Asia Minor (3rd millenium B.C.?) > > 2) Indo-Aryans into Iran and India (2nd millenium B.C.) > > 3) Greek tribes into Greece (2nd millenium B.C.) > > 4) Italic tribes into Italy (2nd millenium B.C) > Italic populations were already settled in Italy in the 2nd m. B.C. and many of them were authentically "Italian". Between the 2nd and the 1st they already had a well organized "federative" system and they had regular economic and religious exchange with Etruscans. Not to talk about language of course (see the *Tavole Iguvine*). For the most recent studies see the work of Prosdocimi and, more updated and with new discoveries, Augusto Ancillotti, *La civilta' degli Umbri*, Jama Edizioni Perugia, 1996. He also explains in detail the various (food etc.) sacrifices and offers transliteration and translation of the Tavole. Dr. Enrica Garzilli U. of Perugia From garzilli at shore.net Thu Dec 12 14:54:50 1996 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 09:54:50 -0500 Subject: Q: Norman fonts: Nina Fonts Message-ID: <161227027477.23782.15242013607395242574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arash Zeini wrote: > > I am searching for Devanagari fonts for Windows 95. > Can anybody help me to find them ? > It would be very good to have True Type ones. > Thanh you. Arch. Dr. Ludovico Magnocavallo is designing the *Nina* fonts for devanagari in Windows TrueType, Macintosh TrueType, and Adobe Type 1 (both WIndows/Dos/Unix and Macintosh versions), together with a set of macros for conversion to and from the CS/CSX encoding. They will be free and available in our ftp server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ Any suggestion from users will be more than welcomed. You can read his announcement of the Nina fonts in the last issue of the *International Journal of Tantric Studies*, Vol. 2 (1996), No. 2, November 29, http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/ For typing devanagari in the Windows environment see the Derick Miller, "Typing Devanagari on a Standard Keyboard", in *IJTS* Vol. 2 (1996), No. 1, April 10, http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/ (Mr. Miller, who is a MA in Sanskrit and worked as a Senior Quality Assurance Engineer, also offers a review of the UniType International and the ILKEYB). I hope this helps. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Univ. of Perugia (ITALY) Editor-in-Chief, IJTS and JSAWS (http://www.shore.net/~india) ************************************************************* From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Dec 12 15:56:28 1996 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 09:56:28 -0600 Subject: aryan invasion (Beekes ref) Message-ID: <161227027500.23782.6564623442865920135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > There is also a book by Beekes, in English and published one or two years > ago, but unfortunately I do not have the bibliographical details. Those of Robert S.P. Beekes. 1995. Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. (Translation of _Vergelijkende taalwetenschap: Een inleiding in de vergelijkende Indo-europese taalweteschap_.) I've only read parts of this book, but it seems to be fairly comprehensive (I don't really know enough about comparative IE linguistics to judge the veracity, hetero-, or orthodoxy of what he says ). My only problem is the somewhat prosaic writing-style (combine this with the presentation of _lots_ of comparative IE data and the text becomes slightly confusing at times). Adi Hastings Depts. of Anthropology and Linguistics University of Chicago From gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Thu Dec 12 16:25:19 1996 From: gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (gail at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 10:25:19 -0600 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027502.23782.3025128146931609111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Das Menon wrote: > Also no one "brough" Sanskrit into India. From the very name it implies that > Sanskrit is a language that was "created" for the specific purpose of > representing AND preserving the the philosophical and cultural wealth of the > ancient Indians, a task that would have been difficult if any of the > traditional languages like Tamil etc. were to be used, since it would have > identified this wealth with a community and thus would sysamatically have > been undermined by others. Time has proven this. No one in India has a > passionate objection to the Sanskrit language, but I am sure that one can > find a lot of people objecting to all other languages of India. > Created? How? And as far as "passionate objection" is concerned -- no one in India objects *now*, but what do we know of language attitudes at the time that Sanskrit first took root in India? As Lars Martin Fosse said in a earlier message: "The best background for defending such a theory seems to be ignorance". :-) Gail Coelho From thompson at jlc.net Thu Dec 12 14:26:28 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 10:26:28 -0400 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027493.23782.8160567977490916429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Edwin, I'm sure that we both want to avoid repeating ourselves, and that we both hope that those who are more informed than we are might not be too tired of entering into this issue yet again. Yes, let's put "crude nationalistic fantasies" aside, not only because overcoming them is impossible, but also because the real issue is not about Aryans, indigenous or otherwise, nor about the invasion or migrations of this or that people. The issue is about *a language* [let's call it "Vedic" instead of "Sanskrit": the term saMskRta isn't applied to this language, I believe, until after the Vedic period was over [in fact by PANini -- cf., e.g., P. Thieme, Kleine Schriften, pp.612f.]. The reason that archaeology is, in my view, irrelevant here is that we are not, or rather *should* not be, concerned with traces of a people or migration, but rather with the migration of a language. If this distinction is kept in mind, further discussion might be useful. Best wishes, George From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Dec 12 09:47:36 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 10:47:36 +0100 Subject: Retroflexes (continued) Message-ID: <161227027471.23782.2947653769628819474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Rao wrote: >But there is no such mystical connection. By now, most Indologists >know that some Swedish dialects have retroflex stops. What may not be so >well known is the fact that retroflexes are also found in some Sicilian >dialects and in some American Indian languages. The later also >distinguish dental and retroflex sounds at the phonemic level. >(`Phonetics', B Malmberg, Dover 1963, pp.41--42.) > They are also found in East Norwegian, where they are the result of the consonant groups rt and rn (in other words .t and .n). I suspect that the Swedish retroflexes have a similar background. Lars Martin Fosse From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Thu Dec 12 03:03:56 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:03:56 +0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027461.23782.8099879910304898961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:15 PM 12/11/96 GMT, George Thompson wrote: ----------------deleted --------- >As a matter of fact Sanskrit "took hold" in the northern portion of the >Indian sub-continent at some hard to determine time. But it did in fact >*take hold*, which is to say that it wasn't there "in the beginning" [the >genetic relationship of Skt. with other IE languages makes for only two >options: either "into India" or "out of India" -- and the latter has >nothing to support it, except for crude nationalist fantasy]. So the fact >that archaeologists can find "no trace" of the IE incursion into the Indian >sub-continent is a function of the crudity of their instruments of measure. >Linguists are, it seems to me, in a much better position than >archaeologists to say, with confidence, that Sanskrit was brought into the >Indian sub-continent, and "took hold" there, for better or worse. > I think that is wrong to say that Sanskrit took hold in the northern portions of India. It is more appropriate to say that Sanskrit took hold in the whole of India, even in Tamil Nadu, where an entiryly new script 'grantha' was created to represent Sanskrit. Also no one "brough" Sanskrit into India. From the very name it implies that Sanskrit is a language that was "created" for the specific purpose of representing AND preserving the the philosophical and cultural wealth of the ancient Indians, a task that would have been difficult if any of the traditional languages like Tamil etc. were to be used, since it would have identified this wealth with a community and thus would sysamatically have been undermined by others. Time has proven this. No one in India has a passionate objection to the Sanskrit language, but I am sure that one can find a lot of people objecting to all other languages of India. Regards...Das From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Dec 12 05:41:27 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:11:27 +0530 Subject: Source of quotation? Message-ID: <161227027465.23782.11537897681453327573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Richards wrote: >Can anyone tell me where the quotation >d.r.s.ti.m j~naanamayi.m k.rtvaa pa'syet brahmamaya.m jagat >comes from? Tejobindupanishad 1-29 I missed a few days of conversation on this group, so I hope this is not a repetition. Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From everson at indigo.ie Thu Dec 12 10:28:36 1996 From: everson at indigo.ie (everson at indigo.ie) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:28:36 +0100 Subject: CONLANG: Re: Representing diacritics in 7-bit ASCII Message-ID: <161227027482.23782.15179150934304917503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 00:16 12.12.96, Marion Gunn wrote: >I disagree. (As someone with over 7 yrs of archives to search & sort) I >believe that putting diacritics in front would make sorting impossible. >Marion Gunn It is also incompatible with ISO 10646. -- Michael Everson, Everson Gunn Teoranta 15 Port Chaeimhghein ?ochtarach; Baile ?tha Cliath 2; ?ire (Ireland) Guth?in: +353 1 478-2597, +353 1 283-9396 http://www.indigo.ie/egt 27 P?irc an Fh?ithlinn; Baile an Bh?thair; Co. ?tha Cliath; ?ire From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Dec 12 10:36:56 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:36:56 +0100 Subject: Religious affiliation in India Message-ID: <161227027479.23782.12881226372380461354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Luis, At 04:02 12.12.96 GMT, you wrote: >Dear Lars, > > >At 10:13 PM 12/11/96 GMT, you wrote: >>Dear netters, >> >>next semester I am going to give a serious of lectures on Hinduism at the >>university of Oslo. > >I hope they won't be too serious! > The minute I sent the email I realized that I had made a series mistake! English is a difficult language, Luis, particularly if you are not a native speaker. The error quoted above is at least pretty harmless. I have made much worse errors than that. Best regards, Lars Martin From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Dec 12 06:11:34 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:41:34 +0530 Subject: Q: Norman fonts Message-ID: <161227027467.23782.18317964026868867328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arash Zeini wrote: > I am searching for Devanagari fonts for Windows 95. > Can anybody help me to find them ? > It would be very good to have True Type ones. There are many companies in India who sell Devanagari font (True Type), but most of them are not very beautiful. One really very nice Company I found at a recent exhibition in Delhi is LEAP. They have a lot of beautiful True Type fonts for many if not all Indian Languages and they even offer a Software in which automatically the right ligatures are formed while typing as on a Hindi-typewriter. Moreover, text can be directly (merely by changing the font formatting) transcribed into international roman transliteration or into any other Indian script. The software and fonts are available both for MS-Windows & Macintosh. I was really impressed by their demonstration. The Software: 1. Leap: Indian Language Word Processor on Windows 2. ISM: ISFOC Script Manager (needed for proper Sanskrit) The Address of the company: Gist Group, Centre for Development of Advanced Computing, Pune University Campus, Ganesh Khind, Pune 411 007, INDIA e-mail: gist at cdac.ernet.in Fax: +91-212-357551 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Dec 12 12:35:58 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 12:35:58 +0000 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027486.23782.16762242681702387173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Martin Gansten wrote: > The question mark at "vi.dvara" remains, however. Well, it could mean "best of feces" -- vi.s + vara. The aayurvediiya mahaako"sa.h arthaat aayurvediiya "sabdako"sa.h, sa.msk.rta-sa.mskrta, by V. M. Jo"sii and N. H. Jo"sii, volume II, p.260a, gives vi.dvala - "gopaka.h" citing the Paryyaayamuktaavalii. vi.dvaraaha, meaning a kind of pig, is in MW, citing BhP; the word is also in Ja.taadhara[ko"sa] according to the above dictionary. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From bpj at netg.se Thu Dec 12 11:14:48 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 13:14:48 +0200 Subject: Retroflexes (continued) Message-ID: <161227027484.23782.15923826937690556491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:59 12.12.1996 +0000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >V. Rao wrote: > >>But there is no such mystical connection. By now, most Indologists >>know that some Swedish dialects have retroflex stops. What may not be so >>well known is the fact that retroflexes are also found in some Sicilian >>dialects and in some American Indian languages. The later also >>distinguish dental and retroflex sounds at the phonemic level. >>(`Phonetics', B Malmberg, Dover 1963, pp.41--42.) >> > >They are also found in East Norwegian, where they are the result of the >consonant groups rt and rn (in other words .t and .n). I suspect that the >Swedish retroflexes have a similar background. IDENTICAL, in fact! (Der er ikke stor forskjell mellom de to spraakene!) _ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * _ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Dec 12 13:28:50 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 13:28:50 +0000 Subject: Hyphenation patterns and ITRANS/SKT/etc. Message-ID: <161227027491.23782.16054117667304440216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Anshuman Pandey wrote: > I would like to know whether anyone here who uses ITRANS/SKT/etc. has > found a successful method which allows for automatic hyphenation of > devanaagarii in the LaTeX environment. Both the Velthuis and the Wikner systems for using Devanagari with TeX and LaTeX support the hyphenation of Devanagari. Jun Takashima is doing very interesting work on creating TeX hyphenation tables for transliterated Sanskrit, and aims to bring this into the fold of Babel. On the Velthuis hyphenation support, see ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/software/ and the file devanagari-with-hyphenation.readme Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Thu Dec 12 04:17:07 1996 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 14:17:07 +1000 Subject: Wire Message-ID: <161227027457.23782.928108609897763309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Could anybody suggest a good history of metallurgy in India. I am particularly interested in the development of wire fine enough to be used to 'string' musical instruments. Tnanks in advance John Napier From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thu Dec 12 21:01:28 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 15:01:28 -0600 Subject: R: Early Muslims in Kerala Message-ID: <161227027511.23782.10566709137535366540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 12/12/96 Re: Early Muslims of Kerala **************************** Even in pre-islamic times, arabs came to Kerala for trade. There are Chola inscriptions (early 11th century) in Brhadisvarar temple, Thanjavur talking of Muslims. This I heard from R. Nagaswamy & S. Raju (Dept. of epigraphy, Thanjavur) The legend among Muslims of Kerala that Cheraman Perumal converted to Islam and went to Mecca sounds like a reworking/transformation of the story narrated by Nambiyandar Nambi (10th century?) and Cekkizhaar (12th century). In the famous Saiva story, Sundarar(9th century) along with his friend and King of Kerala, Cheraman Perumal Nayanar ascended to heaven. (vide - vellAnaic carukkam, the last chapter of Cekkizhar's periyapuranam.) There is a recent novel on this. A. M. Yucup, Marai vazhi kaNTa mAmannar cEramAn perumAL, Tirucci, 1991, 382 p. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov From l.m.fosse at internet.no Thu Dec 12 15:48:24 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 16:48:24 +0100 Subject: Up up and away Message-ID: <161227027504.23782.6469304346217471590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear fellow Indology netters, I shall be away from Dec. 15th till Jan. 17th. I may meet some of you in Bangalore. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From mgansten at sbbs.se Thu Dec 12 15:52:08 1996 From: mgansten at sbbs.se (mgansten at sbbs.se) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 16:52:08 +0100 Subject: Translation help requested Message-ID: <161227027498.23782.973106163663310114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik writes: >> The question mark at "vi.dvara" remains, however. > >Well, it could mean "best of feces" -- vi.s + vara. Yes, obviously -- but that hardly makes sense even as a separate word, and definitely not in the context (astrological predictions of ill-fate: putravarga-manastaapa.m janadve.sa.m ca vi.dvaram). But the ayurvedic connection (vi.dvala --> gopaka) may be just right; thank you! Unfortunately, though, the only meanings of "gopaka" that I know of are "cowherd" and "protector". Would you (or anyone) know what "gopaka" might mean in a medical context? Thanks, Martin Gansten From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Dec 13 00:33:43 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 18:33:43 -0600 Subject: Satyabhama Message-ID: <161227027513.23782.13711175151651106233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone tell me of sources for myth concerning Satyabhama other than the HarivamsaP, VisnuP, BhagavataP and PadmaP? Citations from purana, kavya and other genres would be greatly appreciated. Devesh Soneji Department of Religion University of Manitoba From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 13 03:14:20 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 19:14:20 -0800 Subject: Religious affiliation in India Message-ID: <161227027518.23782.9782724255941225017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:53 PM 12/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Dear Luis, > >At 04:02 12.12.96 GMT, you wrote: >>Dear Lars, >> >> >>At 10:13 PM 12/11/96 GMT, you wrote: >>>Dear netters, >>> >>>next semester I am going to give a serious of lectures on Hinduism at the >>>university of Oslo. >> >>I hope they won't be too serious! >> > >The minute I sent the email I realized that I had made a series mistake! >English is a difficult language, Luis, particularly if you are not a native >speaker. The error quoted above is at least pretty harmless. I have made >much worse errors than that. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin So have I! I hope you didn't take my message seriesly! Luis From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Fri Dec 13 03:52:26 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 19:52:26 -0800 Subject: Satyabhama Message-ID: <161227027522.23782.14186341995899938790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 12, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Reply to Devesh Soneji I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the Satyabhama myth, but the story of how Krishna gets the parijata (flower) tree from Swargaloka for her is a very popular story in the folklore of Karnataka and Andhra (although I can't give references for it there). There is a prose translation of one version of the Tulu paaDdana (ballad) tradition in The Folktales of India (Beck, et.al., U. of Chicago Press, 1987. p. 155) In the Yakshagaana of the coastal region there are several different versions in drama form. In Northern Karnataka there is a whole genre of drama called parijata aaTa. Somehow, they are all apparently drawn from four lines from the Bhagavata Purana which describe only that when Krishna and Satyabhama were in Swargaloka, walking in the pleasure garden of Indra, Satyabhama saw a flower that such a beautifual smell that it attracted many bees. He then battles Indra's army to a stale-mate to obtain it for her. As a settlement, the tree is on earth for 6 months of the year and in heaven for six months. But the various folk forms use this to greatly and imaginatively elaborate on Krishna's romantic character in various disguises and on the intriguing problems of being a god with two (+) wives as well as jealousy between co-wives. Other than the Tulu piece, though, I don't think any have been translated or even described in English. There is (I'm told) a piece of Bengali literature from which some of the Karnataka traditions draw; perhaps someone on the list knows of this. Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From venkn at giasbm01.vsnl.net.in Thu Dec 12 16:17:41 1996 From: venkn at giasbm01.vsnl.net.in (MR VENKATESH NARAYAN) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 21:47:41 +0530 Subject: Request for Publishers' address Message-ID: <161227027505.23782.8084759822130520905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone kindly supply the address, (+phone/fax) of Aditya Prakashan publishers in Delhi? TIA Venkatesh From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Dec 12 16:31:41 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 22:01:41 +0530 Subject: Source of quotation? Message-ID: <161227027507.23782.3783094190525801495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Richards wrote: >Can anyone tell me where the quotation >d.r.s.ti.m j~naanamayi.m k.rtvaa pa'syet brahmamaya.m jagat >comes from? Tejobindupanishad 1-29 I missed a few days of conversation on this group, so I hope this is not a repetition. Swami Vishvarupananda Omkarananda Ashram Himalays omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Dec 13 06:12:19 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 00:12:19 -0600 Subject: Satyabhama Message-ID: <161227027524.23782.16460023585062843299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter J. Claus wrote: > > Date: December 12, 1996 > > Indology List > indology at Liverpool.ac.uk > > Reply to Devesh Soneji > > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the Satyabhama myth, but the story > of how Krishna gets the parijata (flower) tree from Swargaloka for her is > a very popular story in the folklore of Karnataka and Andhra (although I > can't give references for it there). There is a prose translation of one > version of the Tulu paaDdana (ballad) tradition in The Folktales of India > (Beck, et.al., U. of Chicago Press, 1987. p. 155) In the Yakshagaana of > the coastal region there are several different versions in drama form. In > Northern Karnataka there is a whole genre of drama called parijata aaTa. > > Somehow, they are all apparently drawn from four lines from the Bhagavata > Purana which describe only that when Krishna and Satyabhama were in > Swargaloka, walking in the pleasure garden of Indra, Satyabhama saw a > flower that such a beautifual smell that it attracted many bees. He then > battles Indra's army to a stale-mate to obtain it for her. As a > settlement, the tree is on earth for 6 months of the year and in heaven > for six months. > > But the various folk forms use this to greatly and imaginatively elaborate > on Krishna's romantic character in various disguises and on the intriguing > problems of being a god with two (+) wives as well as jealousy between > co-wives. > > Other than the Tulu piece, though, I don't think any have been translated > or even described in English. There is (I'm told) a piece of Bengali > literature from which some of the Karnataka traditions draw; perhaps > someone on the list knows of this. > > > Peter J. Claus > fax: (510) 704-9636 > pclaus at csuhayward.edu Reply to Peter J. Claus, I am, incidentally, writing a thesis on devadasi dances of Andhra, and as you are well aware, the theme is a central narrative not only in the repertoire of the gudisanis (temple dancers), but also the Brahmin dramatic traditions of villages such as Kucipudi and Melattur (in TN). I was actually looking for Sanskrit sources which present the narrative in a less elaborated format. A couple of the references which I had mentioned were given to me by devadasi informants themselves (ie. BhagP and VisnuP). I was wondering if there are other sources either Sanskrit or vernacular which my help in observing the diffusion of the myth in liturature. Thanks, Devesh Soneji University of Manitoba Fax: (204) 257-7377 rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Thu Dec 12 21:20:42 1996 From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 02:20:42 +0500 Subject: kaara.naat paapam Message-ID: <161227027509.23782.817791794061519069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> mm> Prof. S.A. Srinivasan [...] is interested in sources for and mm> information and clarification regarding the terms kaara.naat mm> paapa.m and kaara.naat pu.nya.m. The terms are encountered in the mm> commentary by Samaradivaakara to the Jain text Niilake"sii. I do not know that particular text, but it seems to me a technical term from Jaina karmasiddhaanta. I came across it in my study of Jaina ritualism. There are three ways in which both kinds of karmic influx (pu.nya as well as paapa) are bound: through doing (kara.na), causing to be done by somebody else (kaara.na) and approval of somebody else's doing (anumodana). [Recently I have written a little about this in a note in my article on "The Ritual Giving of Food to a Digambara Renunciant", which is about to appear in the volume of collected papers of the conference "Approaches to Jaina Studies: Philosophy, Logic, Rituals and Symbols" held in Toronto last year. This book should appear with the Univ. of Toronto press.] The phrase "kaara.naat paapam" would therefore mean that the person in question accumulates bad karma not through any act which he himself has committed, but because he has made somebody else commit that act. (Please ask Prof. Srinivasan whether this makes sense in the context of his reading.) Robert Zydenbos From R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz Fri Dec 13 03:59:53 1996 From: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz (R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 03:59:53 +0000 Subject: Miranda Shaw's email Message-ID: <161227027530.23782.15556626924747886201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email address of Miranda Shaw, author of *Passionate Enlightenment* (Princeton, 1994)? Thanks in advance. email: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Fri Dec 13 12:23:07 1996 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 07:23:07 -0500 Subject: 'saMskRta' Message-ID: <161227027537.23782.12225385352105408996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Earlier today, in a message connected with the "out of India" discussion which I inadvertently deleted, it was asserted that PANini uses 'saMskRta' with reference to a language and in support of this a reference was given to an article by Thieme. This is inaccurate on both counts: Panini does not use 'saMskRta' with reference to the language he describes. He provides for forms in which kR is augmented with s (sUT) when used with sam in the senses 'adorn' and 'form a group' (6.1.137-138: samparibhyAM karotau bhUSaNe, samavAye ca) and for derivates meaning 'prepared with' (tena saMskRtam, 4.4.3: saMskRtam [tena]), 'food prepared in ...' (4.2.16: saMskRtam bhakSAH [tatra]). SaMskRta is indeed used of a language, as in RAmayana 3.10.54: dhArayan brAhmaNaM rUpam ilvalaH saMkRtaM vadan ..., 5.28.18: yadi vAcaM pradAsyAmi dvijAtir iva saMskRtAm ..., and elsewhere, but not in the aSTAdhAyIi. (Without wishing to indulge in self advertising, may I refer you to sections 838ff. of Panini, his work and its traditions, vol. I: background and introduction, 2nd ed. [due out this month], pp. 557ff.). What Thieme says ('PANini and the pronunciation of Sanskrit', Whatmough Festschrift 263 = Kl. Schr. 612) is: 'PANini's work is exclusively concerned with defining (lakSaya-) the procedure of regular word-formation (saMskAra) - anything else does not fall within its scope; ...' One need not agree with the claim Thieme actually makes without seeing that he certainly does not claim PANini has used 'saMskRta' with reference to the language being described. Regards, George Cardona From AmitaSarin at aol.com Fri Dec 13 13:01:21 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 08:01:21 -0500 Subject: Goddess who evolved out of a figure made using a var Message-ID: <161227027539.23782.8469809988998399412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try David Kinsley's Hindu Goddesses, p. 111. During Durga puja the goddess is worshiped in the form of nine plants - navapattrikA. Hope this helps. Amita Sarin From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Dec 13 07:24:08 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 08:24:08 +0100 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027526.23782.4745614397407389793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Are you saying that a language with the complexity and elegance of the >Sanskrit language evolved naturally? I do not think that an evolutionar >process could have accounted for it. If it did, we need to date the origin >of the language to much further back! I think you must make a difference between language as a set of phonetical and grammatical rules on the one hand, and language as the medium for literary products. Everywhere in the world, the latter is more refined than the language spoken by ordinary users. But if we look at some of the simpler texts, such as parts of the Brahmanas or of the Epic, Sanskrit does not come across as less complicated or more elegant than, say, texts written in Slavonic languages. The artificiality of Sanskrit, however, increases considerably with the use of long compounds. The psyche of the Indian people is to >worship those "in power" whether they are right or wrong. How else can we >account for the "unemployable" becoming the polical leaders of India! You'd be surprised to know how many "unemployables" become political leaders outside India to! Some also get jobs at universities. A Danish colleague told me that in Denmark they used to say that it was cheaper for society to give a man a university job than to confine him to a lunatic asylum. I put this to psychologist, who got at pensive look on her face and then said "well of course, in an institution you'd need personnel to look after them...that's expensive!". So, just in case you wonder about some of your colleagues, and why have to look after them (or out for them....) much of the time..... :-) Best regards, Lars Martin From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Dec 13 07:25:40 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 08:25:40 +0100 Subject: Religious affiliation in India Message-ID: <161227027528.23782.7867112094339889561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >So have I! >I hope you didn't take my message seriesly! > >Luis Let's not make a serious of series discussions out of this! LM From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Fri Dec 13 03:00:23 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 11:00:23 +0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027516.23782.11675000861479830399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:31 PM 12/12/96 GMT, Gail Coelho wrote: > > >Created? How? And as far as "passionate objection" is concerned -- no one in >India objects *now*, but what do we know of language attitudes at the >time that Sanskrit first took root in India? > >As Lars Martin Fosse said in a earlier message: "The best background for >defending such a theory seems to be ignorance". :-) > Are you saying that a language with the complexity and elegance of the Sanskrit language evolved naturally? I do not think that an evolutionar process could have accounted for it. If it did, we need to date the origin of the language to much further back! If you study the history of India during the times of Kings (and Queens), which probably holds true for all civilizations, dissent to those "in power" is not much tolerated! I am sure that a lot of people who objected to the Sanskritisation of India paid for it by being beheaded as happened to the Oracle of Sri Parmekavu Temple (I am not sure of the temple) in Trissur town in Kerala when he objected to the ruler of Trissur Sri Saktan Tamburan's clearing the teak forest sourrounding the main Siva (Vadakkunathan) temple located in the centre of the town! The psyche of the Indian people is to worship those "in power" whether they are right or wrong. How else can we account for the "unemployable" becoming the polical leaders of India! Since India does not have a real recorded history, we can only speculate on what happened in the past. and that is all we are really doing! Regards...Das From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Dec 13 11:44:30 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 11:44:30 +0000 Subject: "Out of India" Message-ID: <161227027534.23782.11294089790741280268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > Now what is the chronology of Indo-Aryan `invasion'? And, remember, the > Indo-Aryans had to drive their chariots over Afghanistan. Anybody > measured the speed of chariots over mountains? Renfrew (Archaeology and Language, chapter 6) explains how the "wave of advance" hypothesis can account for movements of eighteen kilometers for each generation of twenty-five years, or about one kilometer per year. Such a slow, continuous expansion through the elite dominance of nomadic pastoral communities, using horses for draught, but not for riding, can account for the movements we need, given an the time-depth of the migration period. See his "Hypothesis B" in ch. 8. All this is discussed in great detail by Renfrew, q.v. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Fri Dec 13 12:24:45 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 12:24:45 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027535.23782.9730965388378130309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gail Coelho wrote: >>>Created? How? And as far as "passionate objection" is concerned -- no one in Das Menon wrote: >>Are you saying that a language with the complexity and elegance of the >>Sanskrit language evolved naturally? I do not think that an evolutionar >>process could have accounted for it. If it did, we need to date the origin >>of the language to much further back! Das Menon is only saying what tradition says. The language comes from the Vedas (written portions of which are still extant). The Vedas are 'out of time' and to 'see' them one needs R^ishhis. Now the tradition may be right or wrong but to decide that one needs to investigate the matter thoroughly. As for his use of the word 'created', I really don't see why it can't be so. For example, the laws of physics are 'there' because the physical universe has already been running smoothly quite independently of whether physicists 'create' or 'discover' theories to explain physical phenomena. Most don't ask how or why physicists discover such 'laws' because these questions are quite difficult to answer satisfactorily. Can anyone on the list give details on what is thought about the 'origins' of Sanskrit please? Apart from the 'Indo-European language' connection, are there any other avenues being explored? Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >I think you must make a difference between language as a set of phonetical >and grammatical rules on the one hand, and language as the medium for >literary products. Everywhere in the world, the latter is more refined than >the language spoken by ordinary users. But if we look at some of the simpler >texts, such as parts of the Brahmanas or of the Epic, Sanskrit does not come >across as less complicated or more elegant than, say, texts written in >Slavonic languages. The artificiality of Sanskrit, however, increases >considerably with the use of long compounds. In my opinion, this view largely results from the way Sanskrit is taught in the West. The whole emphasis is on the written texts and oral teaching is practically completely absent. Now, the effectiveness of this language relies a lot on the spoken word (chanted or not). The cadence, pitch etc is used a as a 'tool' in vedic ceremonies for instance. This assertion :'the latter is more refined than the language spoken by ordinary users.' simply does not apply and in fact the contrary is what I have seen. The way this language is spoken is very important to the persons using it. Those of you who have learnt dozens and dozens of shlokas by listening to them and repeating will know what I am talking about. :-)) I really wish more emphasis be put on the oral, re professors!:-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au Fri Dec 13 02:31:08 1996 From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (Sugandha Johar) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 13:31:08 +1100 Subject: Population of S.Asians In USA Message-ID: <161227027520.23782.7501468076095810721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the sources could be the journal on immigration. I am not sure of this name, but you could check it in your local libary. Sugandha At 03:27 12/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Does anyone know the population of >South Asians in the United States? >Is there a place where these statistics >are documented? > >Thanks all. > >Douglas Brooks > > > From anjanar at muskox.alaska.edu Fri Dec 13 22:53:07 1996 From: anjanar at muskox.alaska.edu (Anjana Roy) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 13:53:07 -0900 Subject: Population of S.Asians In USA Message-ID: <161227027550.23782.2148256824065879281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> yes, int he Census records of the U.S., any public library will have a copy on hand. AR On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Douglas R. Brooks wrote: > Does anyone know the population of > South Asians in the United States? > Is there a place where these statistics > are documented? > > Thanks all. > > Douglas Brooks > > From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Fri Dec 13 20:33:28 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 14:33:28 -0600 Subject: Capital letters and 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027546.23782.8712770534154105563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message is a response to messages on both Indology and ISO-TC46. Sorry if some of you dont have all the background information. First of all, I will respond to the John Clews message regarding readability of capital letters in the middle of text. I think it is not only extremely difficult to read but also extremely inelegant, to the point of being ugly and insensitive to the needs of basic human communication, as are all 7 Bit schemes. There is not a single language in the world that can fully communicate with only 7 Bits of information. Even American English is filled with words borrowed from other languages that require diacritics to correctly express and pronounce. Simple 8 Bit fonts have been around for at least 200 years that nicely represent almost all languages. Now that we can view real-time movies, sounds, etc. around the world and send robots to walk around on Mars, why on earth are we so timid about using this minuscule advancement in technology . It has been easily useable for many years and its technology is so simple that it is like comparing algae to human consciousness when we compare 8 bits fonts to the standard features of INTERNET today. When I read all of these passionate messages about 7 Bit fonts/character sets it reminds me vividly of a popular television series from a few years ago, Max Headroom. It was a very futuristic setting where the entire world was run by all-knowing, all-powerful, conscious computers. The weird thing was that humans input data to the computer using a 1940s style mechanical typewriter instead of a modern keyboard. This is the same type of incredibly archaic technology we are discussing here. It is even more incredible that we are discussing it on the INTERNET with almost instant communication from people all around the world. For those of you who actually use INTERNET, you have certainly noticed many times that a Web site will tell you that your web browser is too old an unsophisticated to see anything on that site. Only six or eight months ago, Explorer 2 and Netscape 2 were the most sophisticated personal communication software that had ever been developed by humankind. Now there are thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of websites that have moved on to never technology and are no longer interested in communicating with anyone who will not upgrade their software. It would seem to me that the purpose/goal of ISO-TC46 and Indology is to help the world move smoothly and comfortably into the future. However, it seems that their current function is to lock us inextricably into the past and outdated technology. It must have been at least 15 years since anyone has manufactured a computer not capable of 8 bit fonts. Why on earth are we trying to force the world to suffer because a few people are still using software that hasnt been update for year and years. Why do we not refuse to use their ancient systems and update to some slightly less primitive one????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regarding the use of Romanized fonts to represent Sanskrit, all of the 7 Bit schemes seem to almost totally loose the feel of Sanskrit. I cannot understand why anyone would spend major parts of their life studying a civilization or a people and not think it is important to be familiar with the way that culture communicates with itself. That must be an important part of their whole way of thinking and their consciousness. It is certainly understandable that Roman script needs to be used in the learning stage, and even for widespread email communications. However, there just is no reason for the feel of the language to be butchered in the process. To me the standard diacritic markings that have been used more or less consistently for over a hundred years do retain a good portion of the feel of Devanagari (or Telegu etc. as the case may be). The dozens of much more synthetic 7 Bit transliteration schemes that have come up recently do not even come close to representing the feel of the language, and are quite disturbing to the mind to continually be trying to remember which scheme the current author is using and what it means. It is very ironic that these schemes seem to have come up largely for use of computers, when the computers themselves can easily handle technology a thousand times more advanced. What are we doing???!!!! What we should be doing is working on affordable software that automatically allows email (on or off the INTERNET) to instantly appear in the native font of its origin (Devanagari, Telegu, Tamil, Kanji, etc.), rather than wasting all of our time fighting over which archaic 7 bit font to use!!! There is no reason to use ANY 7 Bit font!! Until we can use natural fonts, let us at least move on to an 8 Bit Romanized font!! Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu or cssetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From som at bcclb.ernet.in Fri Dec 13 23:02:55 1996 From: som at bcclb.ernet.in (som at bcclb.ernet.in) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 15:02:55 -0800 Subject: .ancient.pvt.international.law Message-ID: <161227027532.23782.2351650264140912392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> from: som at bcclb.ernet.in May 25, 1996 2:30 p.m. INCLUDES: indo -------------------------- to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk from: som at bcclb.ernet.in May 25, 1996 2:30 p.m. SOMASEKHAR SUNDARESAN I would like to know if someone can give me information on the private international legal system that prevailed in ancient India during the peak of international trade activity. That international trade flourished in ancient monarch-managed kingdoms in India with merchants from Far Eastern countries, Europe and Africa visiting the country is well known. But what laws applied to resolve disputes, in what manner they were applied and what was the extent of the recognition and enforcement of foreign judgements in India? Did the legal system have a concept of domicile (as in English common law) or did kings use nationality as the basis for application of laws as is done in Continental countries? How did personal laws on issues such as legitimacy, inheritance and succession to property and titles apply? Thanks in advance. Sincerely Somasekhar Sundaresan som at bcclb.ernet.in From pdb1 at columbia.edu Fri Dec 13 22:45:01 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 17:45:01 -0500 Subject: Pahlavi Message-ID: <161227027552.23782.14432582751334369501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Arash Zeini wrote: > I am searching for a dictionary of the Pahlavi language. It doesn't > matter if Pahlavi-English or Pahlavi-German. The one thing that comes to mind is D. N. MacKenzie, _A Concise Pahlavi Dictionary._ Originally published by Oxford in 1971; I have a vague recollection of there being a recent reprint, if not a new edition. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu "For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." From l.m.fosse at internet.no Fri Dec 13 17:29:22 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 18:29:22 +0100 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027544.23782.8457794143866817859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote: >On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> Defending an "out-of-India" theory would be very rough >> going for the scholar who has a good grasp of comparative linguistics. The >> best background for defending such a theory seems to be ignorance. >> >There has been an extended discussion on RISA regarding this theory. I >prefer to use the term "Indigenous Aryan" school, as opposed to "out-of >-India" school, because most scholars in India and elsewhere contesting >the status quo regarding Aryan invasions or migrations are more concerned >with the indigenousness of the Aryans, as opposed to claiming that all >IE's came from India. If you exclude the "invasion" theory, it is a matter of pure logic that all Indo-Europeans originally came from India, since the Aryans are Indo-European. It is only when pushed to explain how the >Indo-Aryan languages are connected to the other IE one's will they then >argue that the linguistic evidence can be reconfigured, or reconstrued, >just as easily to support an "out of India" model, once different >assumptions are made, or challenged. I would very much like to see the arguments. If you read what J. P. Mallory has to say on the subject ("In Search of the Indo-Europeans"), you will see that *a lot* of reconfiguring will have to be done. The aim of this, as far as I can tell >(at least by the more sobre supporters of this theory), is to show that >the linguistic evidence can not actually exclude India, even though it can >certainly not be used to prove that she is the homeland. I will still maintain that the Aryans could not have come from India, any less than the Indo-Europeans. > I have chosen the "unenviable" task of writing a dissertation on >ths Indigenous Aryan school. The RISA discussion ended up taking far too >much time, so I hesitate to engage in another round of exchanges, but I'm >compiling the section on linguistics right now, and discussion can be very >helpful in ensuring one has covered all the necessary material on a topic. Your dissertation subject is extremely interesting. Please let me know when your dissertation is available. > So, in your opinion, leaving aside archaeology and "crude >nationalistic fantasies" for the moment, how exactly would linguistics >eliminate the claims of the Indig. Aryan school of historians? The arguments that apply are somewhat complex and much better explained by Mallory than I could do in a short email. (Incidentally, Mallory does not even discuss the Out-of-India (or at least Asia)-hypothesis, but mentions that such a theory was popular with European scholars in the last century. It was fairly quickly debunked, for various reasons). I will, however, make a couple of suggestions. First of all I must state emphatically that Sanskrit (Vedic) is an Indo-European language more or less closely related to a large number of ancient and modern European languages. Thus, if we dismiss the invasion theory and make the Aryans native to India, we must necessarily make the IE so, too. The second point of interest here is that Vedic is very closely related to Avestan and Old Persian, to the extent that semi-communication would seem to be possible between Vedic and Avestan. This means that the time of proto-Indo-Iranian would lie only a few centuries back in time, Mallory assumes some 8 centuries. As it happens, Proto-Finno-Ugric has loaned quite a few words from Proto-Indo-European. This means that if the PIEs came from India, they would have had to leave that area about 5000 B.C. and travel into Northeastern Russia to hand over the words to the Proto-Finno-Ugric people. However, PFU also has another set of loan words that must have come from Proto-Indo-Iranian, or possibly early Iranian, as it shows sound-changes typical of that language (e.g. Finnish porsas < IE *pork'os). This means that a second group of people (the "proto-Iranians") would have had to leave India, perhaps about 2000 B.C., pop up to the Finno-Ugrics, hand over the relevant words and then pop down to take over Iran. Indo-Aryans are already present in the Middle East by 1450 B.C., as we can see from names and terms in cuneiform documents. The Iranians arrive later. Now, if we work on the assumption that both Iranians and Indo-Aryans came from India, it is logical to assume that both languages would have a number of loan-words from e.g. Dravidian languages. Dravidian influence is obvious in Sanskrit (and Vedic), whereas the Iranians - to the best of my knowledge - show no trace of such words. That is very strange for a language that allegedly comes from India. Furthermore: The attempts to find a home for the Indo-Europeans has traditionally been based on finding an area that fits the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European vocabulary. An important word in all IE languages is the word for "horse", its cognates are attested in all major branches of IE. Now the horse is native to the Russian steppes, where it was domesticated sometime during the 5th century B.C. according the archaeological material. Typically, traces of the horsesacrifice is found both in Roman and Celtic culture, as in India. But the horse is not native to India, being a steppe animal, and was imported from the outside. Since it was so intimately associated with IE culture - the IEs, as well as the Indo-Aryans excelled as horsemen and the latter were hired by the kings of the Middle East as experts in the field - we must assume that the Aryans brought the horse with them into India. [Correct me if I am wrong about the previous presence of the horse in India]. That would, however, mean some kind of "invasion" or intrusion. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to delineate the homeland of the Indo-Europeans exactly. Some have suggested Anatolia, others the Balkans, but the evidence, both linguistic and other, would according to Mallory seem to point to the area of Eastern Russia reaching to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. That may be as far as we can get. But it is from somewhere in this area that the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians have their origin. The linguistic evidence as presented by Mallory and other Europeanists, would, in my opinion, make India an impossible point of departure. With the present state of knowledge "Indigenous Aryanism" is, still in my opinion, not a legitimate discourse, to use your term. It is, however, not simply a question of Indians vs. Westerners, but also of comparative linguists vs. archaeologists, as witnessed by the theories of Renfrew, which Mallory, himself an archaeologist, gives a rather scathing criticism. Thus, we also have a professions war here, not only an East-West divide. Let me, as an "original" contribution to the discussion mention one case of "intruders" that do not leave a lot of archaeological evidence: the Gypsies. They left India some 1300 years ago and have been among us ever since. What is the archaeological evidence of their presence? If all we had were the remnants of their language, how would a future arcaeologist handle them? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From thompson at jlc.net Fri Dec 13 23:46:49 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 19:46:49 -0400 Subject: 'saMskRta' Message-ID: <161227027555.23782.16625874345003168565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is what Thieme says on p. 617 [Kl. Schriften]: "PANini's grammar is not concerned with describing features of speech usage, but with defining abstract procedures of 'formation'; it is not a description of Sanskrit speech, but an argument that is meant to show that most speech-units [zabda] of the sacred language are built up [saMskRta] from simpler elements..." "Not explicitly, but by distinct implication, PANini restores the etymological meaning of saMskR 'build up". The 'ornate, ritually pure' [saMskRta] speech is shown by his 'formation' [vyAkaraNa] to be saMskRta in the word's bold sense: 'built up [from elements through definable procedures'. In this sense saMskR is used by YAska, Nir. 2.1, when he demands of the etymologist [nairuktika], in contradistinction to the grammarian [vaiyAkaraNa], that, in explaining difficult, doubtful words 'shuld not heed the [correct word-] formation [as taught b PANini]: na saMskAram Adriyeta..." ...and, finally and most clearly, by Patanjali [I p.39 1.18] saMskRtya saMskRtya padAny utsRjyante 'the [finished] words [of Sanskrit] are produced [in speech] after being formed [in the way defined by PANini's rules] each individually...." So, while I may have been wrong to attribute the use of the term saMskRta [in reference to a language] directly to PANini, I think that the gist of Thieme's argument here is that this usage might be inferred, "by distinct implcation", in PANini. Thieme may or may not be right about this [I will yield to George Cardona on that question]. But I don't think that my inference is totally unreasonable. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that this usage can be attributed unambiguously to Patanjali, if not directly to PANini himself. In any case, perhaps George Cardona would agree that term saMskRta was not used to refer to a language until after the Vedic period [which is the point that I wished to make]. Thanks for the correction, George Thompson From reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 14 03:53:39 1996 From: reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu (reusch at uclink4.berkeley.edu) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 19:53:39 -0800 Subject: Capital letters and 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027566.23782.13941929766341735469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Claude Setzer sure gets thumbs down from this corner. It took 15 min, if not more, just to download his opus magna, the second part of which froze my computer and messed up all my Eudora boxes. Would it be at all possible to have some kind of consideration, even if condescending, for those rare minority beings who are not into computer sciences these days? Best, From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Dec 13 15:02:28 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 20:32:28 +0530 Subject: Request for Publishers' address Message-ID: <161227027541.23782.17416043385598871292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkadesh wrote: >Could anyone kindly supply the address, (+phone/fax) of >Aditya Prakashan publishers in Delhi? Aditya Prakashan, F 14/65, Model Town Delhi 100 009 Phone: 742 0564 Sorry, the phone number is not confirmed, I only have the 1994 phone book. Swami Vishvarupananda From pfreund at mum.edu Sat Dec 14 03:36:31 1996 From: pfreund at mum.edu (pfreund at mum.edu) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 21:36:31 -0600 Subject: Q: Norman fonts Message-ID: <161227027564.23782.6615456906447918148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> VedicFontFoundry makes a True Type version of "VedicFont" for Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. There is also a transliteration font that is packaged with it. The VedicFont character set includes a broad range of conjunct consonants, and special characters useful in typesetting the four Vedas. Write: VedicFontFoundry SU 152 Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, IA 52557 Or e-mail me for further details. If you have a Mac TrueType or Type One devanagari font that you prefer, VedicFontFoundry can also make a Windows compatible version of that, if the creator of your font agrees to it. Peter Freund pfreund at mum.edu >I am searching for Devanagari fonts for Windows 95. >Can anybody help me to find them ? >It would be very good to have True Type ones. >Thanh you. From thompson at jlc.net Sat Dec 14 01:53:59 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 21:53:59 -0400 Subject: Pahlavi Message-ID: <161227027561.23782.11760092155732011648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arash Zeini wrote: >I am searching for a dictionary of the Pahlavi language. It doesn't >matter if Pahlavi-English or Pahlavi-German. >It is also interesting for me to know if there is any other dictionary >of the old-persian language except the one of Chr. Bartholomae. >And what about dictionaries of Avesta? > For Avestan see B. Schlerath's 'Awesta-Woerterbuch', in two volumes [1968, Harrassowitz; Wiesbaden]. For Old Persian see R. Kent's 'Old Persian', 1953, Amer. Oriental Soc.; New Haven]. There's also an older 'Altpersischer Wortschatz' by W. Hinz [1942, Deutsche Morgenlandische Gesellschaft; Leipzig] best wishes, George Thompson From a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Fri Dec 13 21:56:29 1996 From: a2795850 at smail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Arash Zeini) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 22:56:29 +0100 Subject: Pahlavi Message-ID: <161227027548.23782.11395184493299858248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am searching for a dictionary of the Pahlavi language. It doesn't matter if Pahlavi-English or Pahlavi-German. It is also interesting for me to know if there is any other dictionary of the old-persian language except the one of Chr. Bartholomae. And what about dictionaries of Avesta? Best regards Arash Zeini From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Sat Dec 14 05:00:05 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 23:00:05 -0600 Subject: 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027569.23782.10994092870665071319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dera Indology members: My last posting was a simple one page note, the same one contained below. It was sent to both Indology and to ISO_TC46. For some reason, the one that went to Indolgy got about 800 blank pages inserted into it. The other version, the exact same file came back fine. I have no idea what happened on the Indology server, but I hope this one comes through correctly. Sorry for the inconvenience that this caused. I assure you that it was not a prank. I have no idea what caused it. Claude Setzer xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx This message is a response to messages on both Indology and ISO-TC46. Sorry if some of you dont have all the background information. First of all, I will respond to the John Clews message regarding readability of capital letters in the middle of text. I think it is not only extremely difficult to read but also extremely inelegant, to the point of being ugly and insensitive to the needs of basic human communication, as are all 7 Bit schemes. There is not a single language in the world that can fully communicate with only 7 Bits of information. Even American English is filled with words borrowed from other languages that require diacritics to correctly express and pronounce. Simple 8 Bit fonts have been around for at least 200 years that nicely represent almost all languages. Now that we can view real-time movies, sounds, etc. around the world and send robots to walk around on Mars, why on earth are we so timid about using this minuscule advancement in technology . It has been easily useable for many years and its technology is so simple that it is like comparing algae to human consciousness when we compare 8 bits fonts to the standard features of INTERNET today. When I read all of these passionate messages about 7 Bit fonts/character sets it reminds me vividly of a popular television series from a few years ago, Max Headroom. It was a very futuristic setting where the entire world was run by all-knowing, all-powerful, conscious computers. The weird thing was that humans input data to the computer using a 1940s style mechanical typewriter instead of a modern keyboard. This is the same type of incredibly archaic technology we are discussing here. It is even more incredible that we are discussing it on the INTERNET with almost instant communication from people all around the world. For those of you who actually use INTERNET, you have certainly noticed many times that a Web site will tell you that your web browser is too old an unsophisticated to see anything on that site. Only six or eight months ago, Explorer 2 and Netscape 2 were the most sophisticated personal communication software that had ever been developed by humankind. Now there are thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of websites that have moved on to never technology and are no longer interested in communicating with anyone who will not upgrade their software. It would seem to me that the purpose/goal of ISO-TC46 and Indology is to help the world move smoothly and comfortably into the future. However, it seems that their current function is to lock us inextricably into the past and outdated technology. It must have been at least 15 years since anyone has manufactured a computer not capable of 8 bit fonts. Why on earth are we trying to force the world to suffer because a few people are still using software that hasnt been update for year and years. Why do we not refuse to use their ancient systems and update to some slightly less primitive one????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regarding the use of Romanized fonts to represent Sanskrit, all of the 7 Bit schemes seem to almost totally loose the feel of Sanskrit. I cannot understand why anyone would spend major parts of their life studying a civilization or a people and not think it is important to be familiar with the way that culture communicates with itself. That must be an important part of their whole way of thinking and their consciousness. It is certainly understandable that Roman script needs to be used in the learning stage, and even for widespread email communications. However, there just is no reason for the feel of the language to be butchered in the process. To me the standard diacritic markings that have been used more or less consistently for over a hundred years do retain a good portion of the feel of Devanagari (or Telegu etc. as the case may be). The dozens of much more synthetic 7 Bit transliteration schemes that have come up recently do not even come close to representing the feel of the language, and are quite disturbing to the mind to continually be trying to remember which scheme the current author is using and what it means. It is very ironic that these schemes seem to have come up largely for use of computers, when the computers themselves can easily handle technology a thousand times more advanced. What are we doing???!!!! What we should be doing is working on affordable software that automatically allows email (on or off the INTERNET) to instantly appear in the native font of its origin (Devanagari, Telegu, Tamil, Kanji, etc.), rather than wasting all of our time fighting over which archaic 7 bit font to use!!! There is no reason to use ANY 7 Bit font!! Until we can use natural fonts, let us at least move on to an 8 Bit Romanized font!! Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu or cssetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Dec 14 01:00:30 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 02:00:30 +0100 Subject: New version of old version of New Message (hang on there) Message-ID: <161227027557.23782.12669624474355326339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The message below is a slightly revamped version of a message I sent earlier, but that apparently did not get through (at least it did not turn up on my screen). *********************** At 21:05 11.12.96 GMT, you wrote: >> Large scale migrations have occurred quite regularly within Europe and out >> of Europe for the last 3000 years. >> >> E.g.: >> >> 1) Hittites into Asia Minor (3rd millenium B.C.?) >> 2) Indo-Aryans into Iran and India (2nd millenium B.C.) >> 3) Greek tribes into Greece (2nd millenium B.C.) >> 4) Italic tribes into Italy (2nd millenium B.C) > >These four depend on a model of the spread of IE languages which is >still the subject of heated discussions. I suggest that you check out the book by Mallory which I have recommended in another email. Seen from the point of view of comparative linguistics in the West, the details may be the subject of discussion, but not the general model. The archaeologist Renfrew has attempted to introduce an alternative model, but it is not an "out-of-India" model, rather an "out-of-Anatolia" model. >> 5) Celtic tribes into France and Britain, followed by >> 6) Germanic tribes, reaching Scandinavia possibly 800 B.C. > >Same problem as above. From where, how, what is the hard evidence? Again, check out Mallory. >> 7) Germanic tribes into Gaul, Northern Italy, Spain and North Africa (end of >> 1st millenium B.C. until about 5-600 C.E.) >> 8) Magyar tribes into Hungary (800 C.E) >> 9) Norsemen into Northern Britain, Ireland, Hebrides, the Shetlands, >> Iceland, Greenland about 1000 C.E.) > >What was the number of settlers, versus number of raiders who came, >pillaged and left? Unfair question! We don't have a census :-) But seriously: Norse was spoken in Northern England and left its marks on modern English. It was also spoken on the Hebrides, Man, Shetland and in Ireland. Remember: We have historical records here. We know that the Norsemen settled in these areas. The same thing goes for the other migrations quoted above. >> 10) The enourmous transfer of Europeans from Europe to the Americas during >> the last 500 years >> 11) The migration of Europeans to Australia during the last 200 years. > >The last two were migrations of much smaller number of people, follwed by >a population explotion made possible by more intensive use of land by >the newcomes. It is true that a population explosion took place there like everywhere else. But as migrations go, I would think that the transfer of people from Europe to the Americas in the period 1500 to 1900 (about 400 years) was pretty big. From a small country like Norway, about 300,000 people left for the US in the period 1840 - 1930. The migration was, under all circumstances, big enough to make life quite miserable for the Indians, and for the Europeans to establish political control of the area. >This leaves only 5 cases out the original 11. #7 is a case of >X pushed Y who pushed Z etc. After all, that is why it took nearly >600 years for the Goths to get North Africa. It took 600 years for the Germanic tribes to get to Africa simply because the Roman Empire stood in their way and kept them back. Now what is the >chronology of Indo-Aryan `invasion'? And, remember, the Indo-Aryans had >to drive their chariots over Afghanistan. Anybody measured the speed of >chariots over mountains? As far as I remember, the chariots were only actually driven in war situations. Otherwise, they were normally disassembled and carried on ordinary carts. As for an exact chronology - well, nobody can give an exact chronology, but judging by the data from the Middle East, we may assume that they entered Northern India sometime during the second millenium B.C. Again, Mallory will give you the available details. >> Large-scale displacement of people do not happen every day, but they >> certainly do occur. > >Movements of tribes numbering in 10,000s, I will swollow. But they hardly >displaced prexisting populations. They simply inserted themselves into >the preexisting populations in all cases of yours which I consider to be >cases of established migrations. As it happens, we have documentation (Caesar) showing that as much as 368,000 people could join a trek. Caesar says: "In the Helvetian camp [after the battle between them and the Romans] documents were found written with Greek letters, where the number of those who had left home was given on a name by name basis, those who could carry arms, and also separately boys, old men and women. The total of all these were 263,000 Helvetians, 36,000 Tulingi, 14,000 Latovici, 23,000 Raurici, 32,000 Boii. Those of these who could carry arms amounted to 92,000." (De bello gallico, I,29). I don't think we should underestimate the ability of people in ancient times to move in great numbers. But normally, we don't have to look for numbers as dramatic as this. Often intruders establish themselves as a warrior aristocracy and are gradually "digested" by the locals. (As an example may serve the Mongols in China). It suffices if they have the military strength to supplant the old overlords. But then again, they don't leave many traces of their language. As for the question of archaeology vs. language, the linguistic data are in themselves sufficient to establish the theory. Archaeological data may support the theory, but as long as you don't have ancient documents or inscriptions saying "we are Indo-Europeans" or "We are not Indo-Europeans" (or some statement that amounts to the same), we should not put too much weight on archaeological data. Even in Europe it is difficult to determine correspondences between archaeological data and ethnic data. As soon as we have words, like the Indo-Aryan gods of Mitanni mentioned in a cuneiform treaty, we are on much safer ground. Best regards, Lars Martin From l.m.fosse at internet.no Sat Dec 14 01:00:33 1996 From: l.m.fosse at internet.no (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 02:00:33 +0100 Subject: Folk Tale Query Message-ID: <161227027559.23782.10410267820184660714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> S. Kichenassamy wrote: >> > >> >There is a very similar story I was told as a child (we are Tamils): A >> >king cut himself and his chief minister applauded at the good news---the >> >minister was of course immediately jailed... Later on, while traveling, >> >the king was caught by a tribe of cannibals who were looking for a >> >physically perfect king for their purposes. To their dismay, the king had >> >this small wound...and they had to release him. Is there proof that the >> >above is of foreign origin? >> >> I don't think you can prove that the story given above is of foreign origin. >> But the idea that the king should physically perfect is also found among >> ancient peoples in Europe. In addition, he should be more handsome than > > >In this case, though, the point is that the >*sacrificial victim* has to be physically >perfect. Yes, this story ("ellAm nallathaRkE", >i.e., "All is for the best") is well known (it >was in one of my Tamil schoolbooks). You may be right that the point here is rather that the victim should be physically perfect. I was thinking of kings rather than sacrificial victims as such, but of course the fact that the victim is a king may be irrelevant. The point I wanted to make was, however, that we have evidence from ancient Europe that kings were supposed to be physically perfect. According to an Irish source, king Congal the One-eyed, who had been blinded by bees, was put from his kingship. The source says that it was tabu that there should be a king with a blemish in Tara. There are also examples of this attitude from Sassanian Persia. Since kings are potential sacrificial victims in several cultures, there may be a connection between the idea that sacrificial victims shall be without blemish and the idea that the king should be without blemish. But the king was also regarded as an idealized man, and it is this idea that seems to have a reflex in the ideas that ordinary Americans have about the physical appearance of their president, which I quoted in my email. Sorry about the confusion. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz Sat Dec 14 04:51:48 1996 From: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz (R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 04:51:48 +0000 Subject: Capital letters and 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027571.23782.8284772303614858181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> B.Reusch wrote: >Claude Setzer sure gets thumbs down from this corner. >It took 15 min, if not more, just to download his opus magna, the second >part of which froze my computer and messed up all my Eudora boxes. >Would it be at all possible to have some kind of consideration, even if >condescending, for those rare minority beings who are not into computer >sciences these days? >Best, Hear, hear! email: R.W.Perrett at massey.ac.nz From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sat Dec 14 08:49:04 1996 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 08:49:04 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027576.23782.6948975611079590456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Das Menon writes: >Are you saying that a language with the complexity and elegance of the >Sanskrit language evolved naturally? I do not think that an evolutionar >process could have accounted for it. If it did, we need to date the origin >of the language to much further back! It is quite similar in both 'complexity and elegance' to Classical Greek. That certainly evolved 'naturally' from Indo-European. Actually, I suspect English too is just as complex - it is simply a different kind of complexity. So, for example, complex rules of order and different ways of using prepositions replace inflexions . . . etc. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From jkcowart at io-online.com Sat Dec 14 19:19:06 1996 From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 11:19:06 -0800 Subject: Population of S.Asians In USA Message-ID: <161227027584.23782.17105381299958981388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The information you seek is contained in Roberts, Sam. _Who We Are : A Portrait of America Based on the Latest U.S. Census._ Revised and updated edition. New York : Times Books, 1995. Best wishes, J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California >At 03:27 12/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >>Does anyone know the population of >>South Asians in the United States? >>Is there a place where these statistics >>are documented? >> >>Thanks all. >> >>Douglas Brooks >> >> >> > > > From omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sat Dec 14 06:46:00 1996 From: omkar at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Swami Vishvarupananda) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 12:16:00 +0530 Subject: 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027574.23782.12207958569600422728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Claude Setzer wrote: >My last posting was a simple one page note, the same one contained below. It >was sent to both Indology and to ISO_TC46. For some reason, the one that went >to Indolgy got about 800 blank pages inserted into it. The other version, the Dear Claude, This seems to be some difficulty in the liverpool.ac.uk server with the copy the sender of a message receives back. Sometimes one does not get any copy and wonders if a message has reached, and you got 800 pages in your copy, which was not the case with the copy I for e.g. got of your message. Two days ago I sent an e-mail to the administrator, because I did not receive any mail from Indology for some days and he informed me that they had had to shut down the server because of mailing problems. So this may well be such a mailing problem. Greetings, Swami Vishvarupananda From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 14 22:53:51 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 14:53:51 -0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027588.23782.6078142625440626743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:05 PM 12/13/96 Girish Beeharry wrote: > Can anyone on the list give details on what is thought >about the 'origins' of Sanskrit please? Apart from the 'Indo-European language' >connection, are there any other avenues being explored? Well, this is like asking for explanations about the origins of human beings without taking the theory of evolution into account. Yes, there are other avenues, such as Biblical Creationism, but... Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From bpj at netg.se Sat Dec 14 15:17:09 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 17:17:09 +0200 Subject: Capital letters and 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027578.23782.4086315277191857278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:54 14.12.1996 +0000, B. Reusch wrote: >Claude Setzer sure gets thumbs down from this corner. >It took 15 min, if not more, just to download his opus magna, the second >part of which froze my computer and messed up all my Eudora boxes. >Would it be at all possible to have some kind of consideration, even if >condescending, for those rare minority beings who are not into computer >sciences these days? >Best, I had the same experience (100 K of empty returns, aargghh!), and I feel the same aboout the compewter-geeks' attitude! Its like refusing to admit that people speaking a foreignm language might have something useful to say, so shout louder in your own language, til those idiots deign to answer you in English (or French, or Hindi, or Gothenburg dialect or whatever). Good some people speak up against supercilious oppression! _ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * _ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Dec 14 18:27:08 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 18:27:08 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027580.23782.5143418227817749889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, L.S. Cousins wrote: > Actually, I suspect English too is just as complex - it is simply a > different kind of complexity. So, for example, complex rules of order and > different ways of using prepositions replace inflexions . . . etc. The question of complexity in language is very interesting, and rather difficult. What measures are appropriate for assessing language complexity? And what measures might be appropriate for assessing efficiency? Richard Gombrich told me a story about twenty years ago about a King of Ceylon who had to revise the Sinhalese language in some way because the number of homonyms had risen to such a level that communication was getting clumsy and difficult. Does anyone know a source for this tale? Certainly a high homonym count would be a problem, and might be a reason to judge a language to be inelegant or inefficient. My gut instinct about language complexity is that one would rather soon begin to get involved in assessing semantic complexity, and that would prove impossible to quantify. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sat Dec 14 18:35:49 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 18:35:49 +0000 Subject: 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027582.23782.16419133511928755304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Claude Setzer wrote: > My last posting was a simple one page note, the same one contained > below. It was sent to both Indology and to ISO_TC46. For some reason, > the one that went to Indolgy got about 800 blank pages inserted into it. > The other version, the exact same file came back fine. I have no idea > what happened on the Indology server, but I hope this one comes through > correctly. There was no fault with INDOLOGY's listserv; what was distributed is what you sent. I am surprised you risked sending the message a second time, after the comments you received. Given the point you were making, it seems ironic that the header of your email contained the following line: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the reason why 7bit encodings are -- regrettably -- still important. Best wishes, Dominik From efb3 at columbia.edu Sun Dec 15 01:21:31 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 20:21:31 -0500 Subject: Indigenous Aryanism Message-ID: <161227027590.23782.946341091729667522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > If you exclude the "invasion" theory, it is a matter of pure logic that all > Indo-Europeans originally came from India, since the Aryans are Indo-European. > Yes, unless, like one Indigenous Aryanist, you tried to argue for a much larger initial homeland stretching from the NW frontier up to the Caspian that had always consisted of dialectically variegated PIE (as opposed to some artifical monolithic and uniform tongue). Mallory actually proposes quite a large area. The problem with this, even though it is a nice compromise, is that such a large area would have difficulties accounting for the morphological, and other uniformity amongst such dialects. > I would very much like to see the arguments. If you read what J. P. Mallory > has to say on the subject ("In Search of the Indo-Europeans"), you will see > that *a lot* of reconfiguring will have to be done. I would be happy to get your feedback on some of this material. I've been very surprised as to how some of these arguments, especially those utilising linguistic palaeontology, can reinterpret the same data. This suggests to me, that this method is inadequate. Consider how Gamkrelidze and Ivanov can argue against the habitat of a colder NOrthern Steppe homeland, for a warmer more Souther one. Or how Renfrew can contest the model of a fierce nomadic proto-IE'an to propose a gentle agriculturalist. Naturally, Mallory's book has not taken into consideration the Indian points of view, because these have only recently become prevalent--but he is very aware of the limitations of ling. palaeontology. Anyway, even accepting this method, most Indig. Aryanists feel that they can give as good as they get: if, for example, Salmon and Beech can be touted as evidence of a European or Steppe homeland (of course, few scholars will accept such things as evidence anymore), monkeys and elephants (both with proto-IE pedigree according to G & I) can be utilised just as reasonably to support an Indian urheimat. > > The second point of interest here is that Vedic is very closely related to > Avestan and Old Persian, to the extent that semi-communication would seem to > be possible between Vedic and Avestan. This means that the time of > proto-Indo-Iranian would lie only a few centuries back in time, Mallory > assumes some 8 centuries. > However, the date of the Avesta is basically an extension of the same chronological problem as that of the Veda. While Avestan scholars such as Gnoli and Boyce have no problem fixing a terminus ad quem, they are quite prepared to admit that terminus a quo is much more problematic and based on such things as the Aryan invasion which, from the perspective of the Indig. Aryan school is being contested, and therefore invalid in this regard. > As it happens, Proto-Finno-Ugric has loaned quite a few words from > Proto-Indo-European. This means that if the PIEs came from India, they would > have had to leave that area about 5000 B.C. and travel into Northeastern > Russia to hand over the words to the Proto-Finno-Ugric people. These are the commonly accepted dates. However, we should be aware of the speculative nature of some of these dates as Zimmer comments in his article "dating Proto-IE: a Call for Honesty" (JIE Studies, 16, 3-4) However, PFU also has another set of loan words that must have come from > Proto-Indo-Iranian, or possibly early Iranian, as it shows sound-changes > typical of that language (e.g. Finnish porsas < IE *pork'os). This means > that a second group of people (the "proto-Iranians") would have had to leave > India, perhaps about 2000 B.C., pop up to the Finno-Ugrics, hand over the > relevant words and then pop down to take over Iran. That is one scenario I've seen argued (that there was a steady outflow of tribes, orig. from India, and later from Iran). One interesting point that is used in this regard, to support this proposal, is that the loans are all one-way from Indo-Iranian into FU. The argument is that had the Indo-Iranians been neighbors of the Finno-Ugrics in the steppes, the loans would have been both ways (from FU into I-Ir, and vice versa). That there are no Finno-Ug. loans in the Avesta or Vedic lit., is seen as negative evidence that undermines the established theory that the I-Ir's could have come from areas in the Steppes adjacent to the F-U'ics to India. In such an event, Finno-Ugric loans should have surfaced in later I-Ir texts. Indo-Aryans are already > present in the Middle East by 1450 B.C., as we can see from names and terms > in cuneiform documents. The Iranians arrive later. > How is the later arrival of the Iranians determined? Also, we have no way of determining how long the Mittani had been present in the area. They could have preserved archaic Indo-Aryan language features in the same way as Lithuanian has preserved archaic proto-IE features to this very day. > Now, if we work on the assumption that both Iranians and Indo-Aryans came > from India, it is logical to assume that both languages would have a number > of loan-words from e.g. Dravidian languages. Dravidian influence is obvious > in Sanskrit (and Vedic), whereas the Iranians - to the best of my knowledge > - show no trace of such words. That is very strange for a language that > allegedly comes from India. There's been an incredible amount of debate over Dravidian etymologising, with scholars such as Thieme (and even Mayrhofer) much more reticent than scholars such as Kuiper to attribute unfamiliar words to Dravidian and Munda. However, doubtlessly, there are plenty of non-IE words in the Vedic corpus. That the Avesta shows no such influence works both ways, however. Accepting that it didn't originate in India, it shows no foreign loans whatsoever. It should show loans from whatever substrate language preceded it in Iran. This, then, suggests to some Indig. Aryanists, that the language was always indig to the extreme East of Iran (as part of an IE homeland that stretched from NW frontier to E. Iran. The Avesta is definitely East Iranian geographically). In any event, even discounting that possibility, the response to the above would be that due to being situated more to the NW of the homeland area, the Avestan dialect did not come into as much contact with Dravid. speakers as the Vedic speakers (or composers). > > An important word in all IE languages is the > word for "horse", its cognates are attested in all major branches of IE. Now > the horse is native to the Russian steppes... But the horse is not native to India, being a steppe > animal...we must assume that the Aryans brought the horse with > them into India. That would, however, mean some kind of "invasion" or > intrusion. The horse, has become the most searched for animal in the Indus Valley (see the RISA discussion). Indig. Aryanists deal with this prob. in a number of ways. One argument is that the animal was highly prized because it wasn't native to India, and was only used for sacrificial, military, and other elite functions (hence the paucity of bones--substantial evidence of the horse does not show up until centuries after the commonly accepted date of the Veda [1200 BCE], but we know the horse was extant far earlier, in India, from the Vedic texts themselves). But, so the argument goes, that has nothing to do with the nativeness of the Aryans themselves--they imported them, and excelled in horse training. Also, some Indig. Aryanists will argue, if India is to be eliminated due to not having a native horse, the Steppes must, by the same logic, be eliminated due to not having another proto-IE creature well attested in cognate forms as native to the homeland--the bee (and its honey). By this process, every potential homeland can be eliminated for missing something. > Thanks for your comments. Best regards, > > Edwin Bryant> > > > > From bpj at netg.se Sat Dec 14 20:32:41 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 22:32:41 +0200 Subject: 7 Bit fonts Message-ID: <161227027586.23782.5700295354813763173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:43 14.12.1996 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote, on INDOLOGY, replying to Claude Setzer: > >Given the point you were making, it seems ironic that the header of your >email contained the following line: > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >This is the reason why 7bit encodings are -- regrettably -- still >important. See, everybody? That's what I've been trying to say all this time! _ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * _ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Sun Dec 15 08:13:20 1996 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 03:13:20 -0500 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027593.23782.3192316994641963893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Certainly a high homonym count would be a problem, and might be a reason >to judge a language to be inelegant or inefficient. Would you wish to call Chinese inelegant or inefficient. In Mandarin dialect (the official, Beijing dialect) all words are monosyllabic, composed of roughly one hundred sounds (including tonal distinctions), which, since the average vocabulary is substantially larger than 100 words, means that the language is heavily homophonic. How do they cope? Context and syntax goes a long way -- as does phrasing, and compounds (combining words of similar meaning and using that sound combination exclusively for one particular meaning; or creating a unique phrase) -- and occasionally conversants take recourse to either writing the word, making the gestures for writing the word (which can be understood since they follow a stroke order), or reciting a well-known phrase or line containing the word in question. All that might sound inefficient, but it doesn't seem to slow the Chinese down. Dan Lusthaus Florida State University From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Sun Dec 15 18:27:43 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 18:27:43 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027596.23782.2858162417445181188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >>Can anyone on the list give details on what is thought >>about the 'origins' of Sanskrit please? Apart from the 'Indo-European language' >>connection, are there any other avenues being explored? >Well, this is like asking for explanations about the origins of human beings >without taking the theory of evolution into account. Yes, there are other >avenues, such as Biblical Creationism, but... Sarcasm is, of course, quite unnecessary. The paNDitas I talked to think that IE is a pure construction. I want to know the situation amongst western scholars. It is not because a model is very popular that it is de facto true! :-)) Besides, I don't see what the origin of a system has to with its evolution. Have you heard of chaos? :-) Bye, Girish Beeharry From thompson at jlc.net Mon Dec 16 02:14:44 1996 From: thompson at jlc.net (thompson at jlc.net) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 22:14:44 -0400 Subject: Indigenous Aryanism Message-ID: <161227027598.23782.18300412634123411401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin, Here are some questions which it might be useful for Indigenous Aryan theorists to consider. I'd be interested to know their responses. Indo-Aryan migration theorists assume that retroflexion arises in Skt. after the separation from the Iranians [whether due to areal influence of Dravidian languages or independently, i.e., internally]. The indigenous school will have to account for the disappearance of retroflexion in Iranian. How do they do this? And do they know whether, from the point of view of language typology, the loss of retroflexion is more "natural" or common than the introduction of it as a phonemic process? This brings up in general the place of Dravidian in the Indigenous Aryan model of the universe. What is its place? Dravidian has been conspicuously absent in our previous discussions. Related to this is the question: how do Indigenous Aryan theorists deal with the notion of a So. Asian linguistic area? Besides retroflexion in general, there is the curious phenomenon of "spontaneous retroflexion" in the RV. Also, syntactic features [use of non-finite gerund strings, the quotative iti] distinguish Skt. from its IE relations [never mind lexical borrowings between Skt. and Dravidian]. How is the utter disappearance of all of these features in Iranian, etc., to be explained? Could this disappearance be rationalized consistently with what is known of linguistic typoology? What I am getting at is this. The IA migration model handles the problem of explaining the distinctive features of Vedic Skt. [in relation to its IE kin] at least in part by resorting to the influence of the So. Asian linguistic area and Dravidian. If we assume instead, as it seems to me the Indigenous Aryan model must, that these and other features are systematically lost in Iranian [rather than acquired in Indo-Aryan], then this must be justified in terms of what might be expected in light of what is known about the behavior of languages in general. Has anyone made an attempt to look into this? Perhaps we can continue this "thought-experiment" later. George From apandey at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 16 12:29:24 1996 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 04:29:24 -0800 Subject: Chinese/Indian 'pseudo-archaeological' find. Message-ID: <161227027609.23782.4621310887454673328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all - The following is a message that I had saved about two years ago from the sci.archaeology newsgroup regarding the discovery of a hieroglyphic disc in the mountains of Thibet. I am not sure if INDOLOGY is a proper forum to send this to, but for lack of other fora, I'll go ahead! I am interested to see if anyone knows, or has heard, of this hieroglyphic disc and the findings about it which were later published by a Chinese scientist involved in the project. My interest is purely an inquisitive one, and not one that should undermine my credibility, however small! :-P Forwarded message follows. Regards, Anshuman Pandey ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:12:50 GMT From: Doug Weller Newsgroups: sci.archaeology Subject: Faq needed on Chinese/Indian 'pseudo-archaeology' We occasionally run into stuff here and on other newsgroups about amazing finds in the Indus valley, Indian spaceships (Viyamas), radioactive skeletons found in the streets of Mohenjo-Daro holding hands, vitrified cities, etc. I've heard several times about finds by Chinese archaeologists relating to ancient spaceships also, eg a recent one (clipped heavily): High in the mountains of BayanKara-Ula, on the borders of China and Tibet - a team of archaeologists were conducting a very detailed routine survey of a series of interlinked caves. Their interests had been excited by the discovery of lines of neatly arranged graves which contained the skeletons of what must have been a strange race of human beings; strange because they had unnaturally spindly bodies and large, overdeveloped heads. At first, it had been thought that the caves had been the home of a hitherto unknown species of ape. But as the leader of the team - the Chinese archeologist, Professor Chi Pu Tei - pointed out, "Who ever heard of apes burying each other?" On the walls of the caves themselves archaeologists had uncovered crude pictures of the rising Sun, the Moon, unidentifiable stars and the Earth...all joined together by lines of pea-sized dots. Along with the discs, the cave drawings had been dated around 12,000 years old. It was while studying the skeletons that one of the team stumbled on a large, round stone disk, half buried in the dust on the floor of the cave. The team gathered round the discovery, turning it this way and that.It looked, absurdly, like a kind of 'Stone Age Gramophone record'. There was a hole in the centre and a fine, spiral groove radiated to the rim. Closer inspection, however, showed that the groove was, in fact, a continuous spiralling line of closely written characters... Many experts tried to translate the hieroglyphics in the 20 years the disc languished in Peking. They all failed. It was not until another professor Dr. Tsum Um Nui broke the code and started to decipher the 'speaking grooves' that the extraordinary implications of the disc were realized. Realized, that is, only by only a select few. The outside world remained in ignorance. For the professor's conclusions on the meaning of the disc were so shattering that they were officially suppressed. The Peking Academy of Pre-History forbade him to publish his findings. Two years later, in 1965, the professor and four of his colleagues were finally given permission to reveal their theory. It appeared under the longwinded but intriguing title, "The Grooved Script concerning Space-ships which, as recorded on the Discs, landed on Earth 12,000 years ago". The 'records' - 716 of the grooved discs were later uncovered in the same caves - told an astonishing story of a 'space probe' by [missing text] sent to Moscow for examination. They were scraped free of rock particles which had stuck to them and then put through chemical analysis. To the surprise of the scientists, they we found to contain large amounts of cobalt and other metallic substances. That was not all. When placed on a special turntable - according to Dr.Vyatcheslav Saizev, who described the experiments in the Soviet magazine Sputnik - they vibrated or 'hummed' in an unusual rhythm as though an electric charge was passing through them. Or as one scientist suggested, "as if they formed some part of an electrical circuit." At some time, they had clearly been exposed to extraordinarily high voltages. (I've also fantastic stories about Russian finds also). Although these aren't as common as some of the other nonsense, if there's anyone out there who knows anything at all about these and can help write a faq or even just some pointers, that would be useful. -- Doug Weller From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Mon Dec 16 14:46:10 1996 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 09:46:10 -0500 Subject: Indigenous Aryanism Message-ID: <161227027613.23782.5869715880868360933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thompson at jlc.net (George Thompson) wrote: > Indo-Aryan migration theorists assume that retroflexion arises in Skt. > after the separation from the Iranians [whether due to areal influence of > Dravidian languages or independently, i.e., internally]. The indigenous > school will have to account for the disappearance of retroflexion in > Iranian. How do they do this? And do they know whether, from the point of > view of language typology, the loss of retroflexion is more "natural" or > common than the introduction of it as a phonemic process? I consider myself to be a sceptic rather than an `indigenous aryan' theorist. So I guess I should not be answering this. But, as I pointed out just a few days back: Intervocalic retroflexes are lost in some Central Dravidian languages. Most Central Dravidian and NorthDravidian languages merge n/_n and .n. Also, Assamese has lost retroflexes. Generally speaking, if IE migrated out of India (or Indo-Iranian borderlands), European languages would show substratum influences, to which we can attribute the common features of European IE languages. Surely, European scholars are not averse in principle to substratum influence in their own languages. be earlier than 1800 BCE. Once you modify `Indigenous Aryan' theory in this manner, the rest of Thomson's arguments can be countered by arguing that Dravidians migrated from near the Vindhyas to further north during the third millenium BCE. From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Mon Dec 16 02:03:53 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:03:53 +0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027600.23782.2770124971816421658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >I think you must make a difference between language as a set of phonetical >and grammatical rules on the one hand, and language as the medium for >literary products. Everywhere in the world, the latter is more refined than >the language spoken by ordinary users. But if we look at some of the simpler >texts, such as parts of the Brahmanas or of the Epic, Sanskrit does not come >across as less complicated or more elegant than, say, texts written in >Slavonic languages. The artificiality of Sanskrit, however, increases >considerably with the use of long compounds. Recently in Issue #2, Vol #1 of Samhita (also at the International Conference on Indus Saraswati Civilization Atlanta), Sri Rayalu was questioning whether it is actually Sanskrit that is the language of the Vedas! He cites examples based on Words, Sentences, Thought and AKshara Variations to argue that at the least Vedas cannot be intrepreted on the basis of Sanskrit meanings. Regards...Das From amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Dec 16 16:15:10 1996 From: amhastin at midway.uchicago.edu (Adi Hastings) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:15:10 -0600 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027616.23782.16859601034009095317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And note, too, the tales of purported Dravidian origin somewhere outside of the Indian sub-continent (e.g., the "lost continent" of Lemuria). Adi Hastings On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Das Menon wrote: > Adding to the excellent ideas that Lars Martin Fosse on why the out of > Indian theory is weak, I like to say that if you talk to a hard core > supporter of Tamil Yoga Siddhanda, they will say that the nature > workshipping Aryans did come form outside and that the Dravidians taught > them religion and philosophy! This tradition also believes that 18 siddhas > like Agasthya, Patanjali, Dhanwandhari, Boganathar etc. (I do not have all > the names handy) were from the South, who adopted the Sanskrit language to > preserve their teachings. > > There is also the theory that Ramayana is the symbolic storey of the > invasion of the Aryans into India and the subsequent pushing down of the > Dravidian civilization into the Southern parts of India. > > Regards...Das > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Dec 16 10:31:54 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:31:54 +0000 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027604.23782.14126387529668759673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, Edwin F Bryant wrote: > [...] monkeys and elephants (both with proto-IE pedigree according to G > & I) can be utilised just as reasonably to support an Indian urheimat. While we are on the topic of animals, and just in case it comes up some time, Frawley in _Gods, Sages, and Kings_ ( pp. 90 f.) uses the mention of the Ganges riverine dolphin ("si.m"sumaara) in RV I.116.17--18 as evidence for an eastern home for the composers of the RV, and argues that this dolphin proves that the river Jahnavi must be the Ganges, and not a river such as the Indus in the Punjab. As far as I can see, almost everything Frawley says in this passage is wrong, as are his far-reaching conclusions based on his errors. The "si.m"sumaara is not the Delphinus gangeticus as Frawley claims (I'm not even sure that "Delphinus gangeticus" is a proper name; I've only seen it in Monier-Williams. Perhaps it is just out-of-date), but Platanista gangetica (Lebeck). It is a fascinating creature, and is "Found in the Ganges, the Brahmaputra, the Indus, and their larger tributaries to the bases of the hills. They are also seen in the tidal limits, but do not enter the sea." For some time the Indus dolphin was consdered a separate species (Platanista indi), but is now considered conspecific with P. gangetica. There are also fresh-water Dolphins in South America and China. See _The book of Indian Animals_ by S. H. Prater (Bombay, 1971, fourth impression 1993). ISBN 0 19 562169 7, pp. 312- . Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 16 18:32:31 1996 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:32:31 -0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027619.23782.8372574083963230857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:33 PM 12/15/96 GMT, Girish Beeharry wrote: > >Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > >>>Can anyone on the list give details on what is thought >>>about the 'origins' of Sanskrit please? Apart from the 'Indo-European language' >>>connection, are there any other avenues being explored? >>Well, this is like asking for explanations about the origins of human beings >>without taking the theory of evolution into account. Yes, there are other >>avenues, such as Biblical Creationism, but... >Sarcasm is, of course, quite unnecessary. The paNDitas I talked to think that >IE is a pure construction. I want to know the situation amongst western >scholars. >Besides, I don't see what the origin of a system has to with its evolution. >Have you heard of chaos? :-) No sarcasm was intended. But I do think that asking "western" linguists for an explanation of the origin of Sanskrit that ignores the Indo-European language theory is somewhat like asking a "western" biologist to account for the human species without using the theory of evolution. My familiarity with chaos theory is irrelevant. >It is not because a model is very popular that it is de facto true! On this we can agree. I'm signing off until January. Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Dec 16 10:37:36 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:37:36 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027606.23782.8964410312900032511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > [...] and occasionally conversants take recourse to either writing the > word, making the gestures for writing the word (which can be understood > since they follow a stroke order), or reciting a well-known phrase or > line containing the word in question. All that might sound inefficient, > but it doesn't seem to slow the Chinese down. Well, actually, I have always thought that Chinese conversants signing away in the air to eachother was a rather good example of inefficient spoken language. But again, I would direct attention towards the difficulty of quantifying this. Perhaps one could give, say, English and Chinese conversation teams groups of sentences to convey, and time them? The sentences would need to cover a broad range of semantic areas (it wouldn't be fair to take them all from textbooks on ontology, for instance!). And as for not seeming to slow the Chinese down, I would ask the same question: by what measure to you propose to measure the "speed" of the Chinese? There are many areas in which I can imagine them "moving faster" than they do. But such musings are pointless without quantification. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Mon Dec 16 02:38:07 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:38:07 +0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027602.23782.2647349465645311401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Adding to the excellent ideas that Lars Martin Fosse on why the out of Indian theory is weak, I like to say that if you talk to a hard core supporter of Tamil Yoga Siddhanda, they will say that the nature workshipping Aryans did come form outside and that the Dravidians taught them religion and philosophy! This tradition also believes that 18 siddhas like Agasthya, Patanjali, Dhanwandhari, Boganathar etc. (I do not have all the names handy) were from the South, who adopted the Sanskrit language to preserve their teachings. There is also the theory that Ramayana is the symbolic storey of the invasion of the Aryans into India and the subsequent pushing down of the Dravidian civilization into the Southern parts of India. Regards...Das From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Mon Dec 16 15:59:13 1996 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 10:59:13 -0500 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027614.23782.13548904687076568077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: > Chinese conversants [...] > Perhaps one could give, say, English and >Chinese conversation teams groups of sentences to convey, and time them? Chinese speakers make up the speed by eliminating things like definite and indefinite articles. inflections, tenses, etc. For example, "No ticket, no take" is a lot faster than "If you don't have a receipt, you can't pick up the clothes" (NB: In Chinese "ticket" would also be one syllable). Chinese uses fewer words, and each word is monosyllabic -- that equals faster speaking time; we start to catch up while their gesturing, but they still have the edge. If you are looking for a quantifiable way of comparing language efficiency, just compare translations back and forth -- if one language uses substantially fewer words to express the same idea, then it is more efficient. I think Chinese would win in most instances, the big exception probably being modern technological vocabulary which can get a bit long winded in Chinese. In any case, both languages "work", so the point may be that each is sufficiently efficient to act as a language -- Chinese is not crippled by rampant homonyms and English is not crippled by its grammatical padding (which is still sparse by most Indo-European standards; no gender, e.g.). Dan Lusthaus Department of Religion Florida State University Tallahassee, FL 32306-1029 Ph: (904)644-0210 Email: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Fax: (904)644-7225 From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Dec 16 21:06:46 1996 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 11:06:46 -1000 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027630.23782.16201150828601588066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: [...] > For some time the Indus dolphin was consdered a separate species > (Platanista indi), but is now considered conspecific with P. gangetica. [...] Hmmm... this raises an issue strangely similar to that regarding the "Proto-Indo-European homeland". The Indus and the Gangetic river systems are not connected by water (except thru the sea -- where, we gather, the freshwater dolphins do not venture). So how come an identical species of marine mammal exists in both these rivers? I'd be inclined to vote for a Proto-Indo-Cetacean homeland in the high Himalayas, where both these river systems have their origins. Presumably, the early Proto-Indo-Cetaceans found no difficulty slithering over the slippery glaciers from the headwaters of the Indus to those of the Ganges (and vice versa). They may have adapted horse-drawn chariots to their own porpoises, or, with their knowledge of iron, forged skis or snowshoes. Numerous Seals (another aquatic mammal!) have been found in the ruins of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro. I am confident that further excavations will yield Dolphins as well. These dolphins eat fish and emit curious whistling and clicking noises -- a clear link to the Proto-Dravidians, whose descendants have retained these annoying traits to the present day. The only weakness in the case for a Himalayan Proto-Indo-Cetacean homeland is the fact that these dolphins are blind. This, of course, hints at an origin in Darkest Africa. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. ________ ________ __ __ ________ | | | | (/ \/ ) | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | / | | | | | | _/ __ | | | | | | (__/ \) | | / From dran at cs.albany.edu Mon Dec 16 17:08:07 1996 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 12:08:07 -0500 Subject: AIT Message-ID: <161227027618.23782.17421084433579042664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read in a Malayalam magazine that there is archeological evidence of a big battle fought between the Aryans and the Dravidians in a place called "Hirakaniya." Is there any truth to this? Dran From g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Dec 16 11:54:12 1996 From: g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no (g.v.simson at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 12:54:12 +0100 Subject: personal message, Fosse Message-ID: <161227027607.23782.8278490790789451688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse, who temporarily has withdrawn from our discussion group, asks me to comvey the following message: "Dear Indology netters, I am now disconnected from Indology net, and if any of you want to send me a message, please use my private email address: L.M.Fosse at internet.no. I'll be here on the 25th and 26th before proceeding to India, and I'll check my email then. A merry Christmas and a happy new year to you all. Lars Martin Fosse" Professor Georg von Simson University of Oslo Department of East European and Oriental Studies Box 1030, Blindern 0315 Oslo, Norway From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Mon Dec 16 19:00:04 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 13:00:04 -0600 Subject: File corruption and 7 bits Message-ID: <161227027623.23782.16924094485720224617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, I want to apologize if my comment seemed to be critical or disrespectful to the Indology sever or to you. I have very great respect and admiration for both the server and you. In fact, I sincerely believe that your contributions to the Indology list server and to the website will cause you to long be remembered as one of the world's greatest contributors to knowledge of Indology and to world culture in general. I will be at the World Sanskrit Conference and hope to meet you there. >In you note, you said: "There was no fault with INDOLOGY's >listserv; what was distributed is what you sent. I am surprised >you risked sending the message a second time, >after the comments you received. " First of all, I did not consider it in any way a bad thing that a file happened to be corrupted while going through the Indology server. In my opinion, computers are just like people and cannot possibly avoid occasionally making a mistake or data error. My comment was meant only to give information to those who had had trouble with my file and to insure them that I had not, as one person accused me, intentionally caused a computer to crash. I am quite surprised that you do not think there is a possibility of your server ever adding a data bit to a file, especially since your administrator recently sent a message that he was having so much trouble with the server that he had temporarily shut it down. Also, many people, including myself, received several dozen duplicate files last week from your server. I believe the data strongly points to a possible corruption of a few files that may, in some way, be related to the Indology server, but I will give you the information and let you decide your own opinion. Based on the following information, I decided to resend the message for two reasons: 1) I was convinced that the corruption was a random occurrence and would not happen again and I wanted to show people that it was an innocent event from my side. (This belief was supported by the fact that my second sending did not have any problem.) 2) Many people had sent me very positive and supportive personal messages about my original posting, and I thought those who had had trouble with the file would appreciate receiving the uncorrupted version. The information is as follows: I originally made only one message and sent it simultaneously to two list servers. It used the same software and went in exactly the same way. The copy that went through the ISO_tc46 server came back to me uncorrupted. The one that went through Indology server came back to me with some addition that caused my email software to think that 40,000 carriage returns had been added to it. It does not seem that anyone on the ISO group received a corrupted file. The interesting point is that, even on the Indology list, many people reported to me that the file they received was not corrupted and they did not see why some people were so upset. Even people that are on the same email link as I am received uncorrupted versions of the file. Also, several people reported that my file was not corrupted but that they had received files from other people that had similar corruption and one person reported that he had received a file from me before, that had gone through a different sever and had this type of corruption. It seems to me that his type of corruption occasionally happens on servers and that there might have been a short period of time when some of the copies of my file were going out that the Indology server or something in its immediate data path had a noise problem, etc. >You also said: >Given the point you were making, it seems ironic that the header of your >email contained the following line: > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This is the reason why 7 bit encodings are -- regrettably -- still >important. The reason I sent the message this way is very simple. The Indology rules say that if you send mail from a server other than the one you registered on, the mail will not be accepted. The one I registered on removes the eighth bit for all characters before " server will be retired in a few days, and I will be on one that gives the option for 8 bit email. To me this seems to be a reason, not to continue 7 bit systems, but to quickly remove all of them. It is interesting to note that it is even possible that the reason for this file corruption and the fact that it did not affect some people may be related to the continual conversions back and forth between 7 and 8 bit files. My server, for example, is set to strip the last bit of every character on outgoing mail, but easily accepts 8 bit characters on incoming mail. I sent many messages to my self from an 8 bit outgoing system to confirm this. (You can also observe this phenomenon on the Indology files recently sent..."Test of ASCI" encoding.) I am now even more convinced that there is no real reason why email systems strip bits from characters and we should all work towards making 8 bit characters the standard. I will discuss this more in a separate message. Thank you again for your many contributions to Indology. I send you my kindest regards and respect, and hope that this message will be received in the innocent, friendly manner that it is intended. Claude Setzer -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Mon Dec 16 19:00:07 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 13:00:07 -0600 Subject: 7 Bit tutorial Message-ID: <161227027625.23782.3740423119904247785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my recent posting, I innocently assumed that the people I was addressing new more about computers and file systems that I do. Since they had been very active in discussing 7 bit systems and even writing software to use them, this seemed a reasonable assumption. I was quite surprise to be accused of "not speaking English." I was also very surprised that many people, including some that are very knowledgeable computer experts, have many misunderstandings about how characters are generated and processed by a computer and by email. I do not in any way claim to be an expert, but will try to help the situation with this comment. The main point of my posting was to try to remove what I believe is a very incorrect belief that many people have. It seems that the computer people have convinced most of the world population the there is a serious technical reason that prevents computers from using 8 bit characters. It is my strong belief that this is completely untrue and a relatively easy problem to fix, especially compared to all the tens of thousands of hours that have been put into attempts to consistently use 7 bit systems and get them to cooperate with 8 bit systems. Based on recent postings, I don't think it will ever be possible to get people to agree on a single 7 bit coding system. Many people are very emotionally attached to their own favorite. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that there is much disagreement on 8 bits character standards, since most people already use those characters for hand written messages. This seems to be, in every way, a less expensive and more effective system to use. 7 and 8 Bits Tutorial: A bit is the most fundamental piece of information processed by a computer. Physically it corresponds to one of two voltage levels in an electronic circuit. Logically, these two voltage levels are represented by either a one or a zero. To simplify the circuits and to insure accuracy, computers store and transfer information in groups of bits, often called words. Since the late 1970s, all computers have used 8 bit (or larger) "words." Therefore, when you type a character on your keyboard, it always gets transmitted as an 8 bit "word." There is no choice because the computer is not capable of transmitting an odd length word, such as 7. Actually most fonts are 8 bits fonts, too. The problem arises when some software or hardware starts ignoring the last bit in every word. Then the 8 bit characters are translated into 7 bit ones, often with dire consequences. An eight bit computer word allows a character (represented by a string of 8 ones and zeros) to take on one of 256 values. In most languages, 256 characters are adequate to represent at least the most commonly used characters. When we only look at the first seven bits, however, half of those potential characters are ignored, or worse, translated into a different character. With a 7 bit font, only 128 characters can be used. Although this seems like a lot, many of those are taken up by punctuation and control signals, so it actually puts a rather severe limitation on communication. In the case of transliterated Devanagari, you loose all or most of the diacritical marks. With respect to email, there are two separate problems: body text and attached files. It is possible for an email system to independently use 7 or 8 bits capabilities in each area. Body text relates to what you type into the message area. An attached file can often be sent correctly with 8 bit fonts even when your email does not support 8 bit fonts in the body text. The problem gets more complicated when an email system decides your body text is too large and converts it into an attached file. This usually happens at the receiver end. When you send and receive an attached file, both email systems must be capable of interpreting the type of encoding that is used for transmission, and both computers must have a font with the same character placement. Another misunderstanding comes in with respect to the relationship between the keyboard, the computer display screen, and what is stored in a file. There is no fixed relationship between these. A software package may let you type in on the keyboard using your choice of 7 or 8 bit fonts, display on the screen in a 16 bit font (for example Peter Freund and Ralph Bunker are working on a Devanagri font set that has over a thousand character possibilities. They call this a font tray I believe, but it could have been a 16 bit font.), and save to a file using a different 7, 8 or 16 bit font. For example, you could type in using your favorite 7 bit Romanized font of English characters, and the screen could display what is typed, or it could display a Romanized font with diacritical marks, or it could display just as easily in Devanagari or Telegu fonts that could be 8 or even 16 bits in size. When the file is saved, it could be in any of these formats, or a totally different one. The point I am trying to make is that computers use 8 bit fonts anyway, and our lives will probably become much easier and simpler if we put our time into standardizing on 8 bit system than if we continue working on the much more limited and emotionally charged 7 bit systems. Yes, we do need 7 bit systems today, but I don't think there is any technical reason why we should need them tomorrow. And I think it will much easier to please everyone with 8 bit systems. Sincerely , Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu or cssetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From pdb1 at columbia.edu Mon Dec 16 18:49:16 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 13:49:16 -0500 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027621.23782.6661470354211935904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996 dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu wrote: > (NB: In Chinese "ticket" would also be one syllable). Chinese > uses fewer words, and each word is monosyllabic -- that equals faster > speaking time; we start to catch up while their gesturing, but they still > have the edge. My understanding is that modern spoken Chinese is not truly monosyllabic. It _looks_ like it because of the writing system, but in fact many of the "character combinations" they have evolved to get around the homonymy problem are now regarded as having become true polysyllabic words. This is especially true of the "Mandarin dialect;" Cantonese and other Southern speechforms have retained more phonetic distinctions (eg more tones, final stop consonants), therefore less homonymy, therefore more retention of simple monosyllables. (I'm not an expert, but if anyone wants I can probably dig up a source or two for the above.) -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu "For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." From som at bcclb.ernet.in Tue Dec 17 02:44:33 1996 From: som at bcclb.ernet.in (som at bcclb.ernet.in) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 18:44:33 -0800 Subject: .ancient.pvt..intl..law Message-ID: <161227027611.23782.9960340979517881620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> from: som at bcclb.ernet.in December 16, 1996 2:00 p.m. SOMASEKHAR SUNDARESAN I wonder how a very old query of mine that kept bouncing back made it to the list after about seven months. However, my curiosity still stands. Would someone be kind enough to share any answers they may have to it? SOMASEKHAR SUNDARESAN som at bcclb.ernet.in From bpj at netg.se Mon Dec 16 18:48:02 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 20:48:02 +0200 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027627.23782.7534020438757958064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 19:11 16.12.1996 +0000, Peter D Banos wrote: >My understanding is that modern spoken Chinese is not truly monosyllabic. >It _looks_ like it because of the writing system, but in fact many of the >"character combinations" they have evolved to get around the homonymy >problem are now regarded as having become true polysyllabic words. This is >especially true of the "Mandarin dialect;" Cantonese and other Southern >speechforms have retained more phonetic distinctions (eg more tones, final >stop consonants), therefore less homonymy, therefore more retention of >simple monosyllables. > >(I'm not an expert, but if anyone wants I can probably dig up a source or >two for the above.) That was the oft-repeated view of no lesser a Chinese linguist than Y.R. Chao, and I guess we can take his word for it. The same script-artifact "monosyllabism" is also found in Tibetan, btw. The facts are: (1) most _morphemes_ (not words) in these languages are monosyllabic. (2) the scripts delimit syllables, but not words. I.can.eas.I.ly.write.Eng.lish.in.a.si.mi.lar.way.as.Tib.is.writ.ten. || Does.that.make.Eng.lish.mo.no.syl.lab.ic. ? Not.to.my.mind. | though.most.na.tive.Eng.lish.mor.phemes.and.a.fair.num.ber.of.words.are.in.d eed.mo.no.syl.lab.ic. || Re.gards.Phi.lip. || __ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * __ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch Mon Dec 16 22:24:50 1996 From: Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 23:24:50 +0100 Subject: 7 Bit tutorial Message-ID: <161227027632.23782.954011503969742203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few words on 7bit/8bit issue. There seems to be some confusion between character-sets and their encodings. No official character set (except for UNICODE which uses 16bits) is necessarily either 8bit- or 7bit-encoded. For example, ISO-8859-1 (Latin-1 character set) can be encoded by the both encoding methods. ISO-8859-1 is encoded using 8th bit when it is a part of X Window system's compound-text encoding, but it uses only 7 bits within IS0-2022-JP encoding. It should also be noted that huge character-sets, such as Japanese Kanji, can be encoded with two 7bit-sequences (see Ken Lunde's _Understanding Japanese Information Processing_, O'Reilly & Associates, 1993). As for the mail-transfer protocol, it uses only 7 bits. Nevertheless, it can handle correctly ISO-8859-1 characters along with US-ASCII. This is done by an encoding-decoding convention which is to be found in the RFC documentation. When you write an e-mail containing some so-called `8bit' characters, if your mailer program is intelligent enough to encode it according to such a convention, the e-mail is treated correctly. There are some types of such convention. The one often used in one byte area is the method called `quoted-printable', while in two-byte character area, such as Japan, the method with escape sequence is widely used. The Japanese mailing-list for my favorite text editor, Mule (Multilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs), uses the latter encoding method, and people there discuss using not only Japanese Kanji and US-ASCII, but also ISO Latin 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5), Greek (ISO-8859-7), Chinese GB, Korean KSC, Thai TIS620, ... characters (devanagari is now under development). And these character-sets are all encoded with only 7 bits (or two 7bit sequences). Apologies if Claude already knows what I wrote above. My point is: the discussion should be not on the `8bit-7bit' issue, but on the character-set which we need. Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From bpj at netg.se Mon Dec 16 22:33:42 1996 From: bpj at netg.se (bpj at netg.se) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 00:33:42 +0200 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027634.23782.16204866548608114926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:11 16.12.1996 +0000, Narayan S. Raja wrote: >The Indus and the Gangetic river >systems are not connected by water >(except thru the sea -- where, we gather, >the freshwater dolphins do not venture). >So how come an identical species of marine >mammal exists in both these rivers? Seriously: there must have been a connection between the river systems in prehistoric times or they may have been brought to Indus by humans. >these dolphins are blind. Really? Regards __ __ ___ __ ___ __ |_) |_ * | * __ (_ /_|| * (_ /_| (_ * | | ) | | | |_) | \ | B.Philip Jonsson "Peace is not simply the absence of war. It is not a passive state of being. We must wage peace, as vigilantly as we wage war." (XIV Dalai Lama) "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" From MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Dec 17 00:59:56 1996 From: MDSAAA48 at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (Dr. S. Kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 05:59:56 +0500 Subject: 7 Bit tutorial Message-ID: <161227027637.23782.6785528754171039909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > My point is: the >discussion should be not on the `8bit-7bit' issue, but on the >character-set which we need. > >Toru Tomabechi >University of Lausanne This is a good point. CDAC, Pune tried to standardize the character set for Indian language scripts, by simply lining up the glyph components from 032 to 255. The glyphs are the ones taught to school children. The same glyph standard is used in Scanrom 1500+ fonts .http://www.chorus.cycor.ca/multipc/company/s__001.htm email: 72240.3447 at compuserve.com The advantages are GUI and portability: the fonts popup on the Windows screen (MS Word 7.0) as an ANSI chart and the user can use the mouse and point and click to insert the glyphs desired. Regards. Kalyanaraman From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Tue Dec 17 15:43:25 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 07:43:25 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027647.23782.2299719606004840658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 17, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, Since the recent discussion (re-hash) of the Indigenous Aryan theories was stimulated by some macro-comments (new word?) I had made about English language signs in modern Indian cities, I would like to add a few more reminders. 1. Reconstruction of proto-languages decreases in utility the further back we try to go. This is partly a matter of probability (chance occurrence of similar sounds having similar meaning in two languages) and partly a matter of a decreasing possibility of having corroborating evidence (literature, material culture and other archeological data, environmental sciences, cultural institutions, etc.) Yet it is only on the basis of corroborating evidence that we can decide the likelihood of a given linguistic reconstruction over another. 2. Reconstruction of linguistic continuities and discontinuities (via cognates, loan words, phonemes) decreases in utility the more liberally we accept a claim of similarity. Statistics, again. 3. There is no a priori connection between language and a population's genetics (race) or culture. While arguments might be made along these lines (most fruitful being between language and certain cultural institutions and cognitive patterns such as marriage patterns and kinship terminology) it is another matter to attribute any greater significance to this connection. And again, the further back in time, the less reliable the connection and the significance might be. 4. Reconstructions of linguistic trees (on the metaphor of family descent lines) address only one dimension of any linguistic reality and speech communities are not much like individual (ancestors, descendants) speakers. 5. Reconstructions have an infinite number of possible explanations, and the number of likely explanations would be especially large as the complexity of the situation increases. (Eg. -but not to be taken seriously- one household of Indo-Aryan speaking animal herders and traders who stayed on during one of their trade ventures from the northwest and settled in the cosmopolitan city of Mahenjo Daro and obtained some horses one year when some others of their group came on a trading visit. The horses, raised for a few generations, were considered oddities, and didn't sell well and the household went back to the cattle and goat business. The family eventually ceased being either ethnically or linguistically distinct. The horses were sold and eaten: only a few bones remained in the trash heap.) 6. Given the above, what is remarkable is the fervor with which arguments are made and by whom and with what presumed discreetness of the cultures and speech communities and populations involved! And what is interesting in it all is perhaps less the theories than the politics (if one can call it that, given even the recent, 20th century, history of such arguments) of the proponents and those who so readily accept one or another theory. In this I laud Edwin Bryant's perspective (which focuses on the reasons for the rise in IA argument, right?) on the matter. While it is fun -- and academically necessary -- to speculate on these matters, one has to keep in mind that it IS, by its nature, VERY speculative. And the more one sticks to what we KNOW to be the increasingly complex realities (economic, ecological, social, etc.) of Eurasia from the 5th millennium onward the less likely any one descent group is going to be able to claim any satisfaction out of a reconstruction. Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch Tue Dec 17 07:25:43 1996 From: Toru.Tomabechi at orient.unil.ch (Toru Tomabechi) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 08:25:43 +0100 Subject: 7- vs. 8-bits Message-ID: <161227027643.23782.11531711734090998606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert J. Zydenbos wrote: The system I use (VSNL) is totally 7-bit, > i.e. words containing characters above ASCII 128 become > distorted (e.g. "Qu=E9bec" is the name of a Canadian > province). One point should be made clear. The `distortion' like "Qu=E9bec" is made on sender's side. And this is not a distortion at all. This is the "quoted-printable" encoding used to transfer the characters mapped above 128 decimal code (more precisely above 160 decimal code, because ISO standard does not allow the code points between 128-159) using only 7bit ASCII characters. It is up to your mail-reader program to decode and to remap the code to an appropriate character set. If your mail-reader is MIME compliant and the mail that you receive contains an appropriate "Content-Type" header, you must see the accented letters correctly. Toru Tomabechi University of Lausanne From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Tue Dec 17 06:04:29 1996 From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:04:29 +0500 Subject: 7- vs. 8-bits Message-ID: <161227027641.23782.8503402020680387697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About 7- vs. 8-bit codes: I would like to put in a plea here for those (like myself) who have to put up with primitive e-mail systems like those here in India. The system I use (VSNL) is totally 7-bit, i.e. words containing characters above ASCII 128 become distorted (e.g. "Qu=E9bec" is the name of a Canadian province). Writing French is already unpleasant; it seems to me that writing transliterated 8-bit Indian would be simply confusing. (I do not think we may count on the Indian internet providers to upgrade their technology soon.) Robert Zydenbos From das at netcom.com Tue Dec 17 19:14:09 1996 From: das at netcom.com (Das Devaraj) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:14:09 -0800 Subject: file corruption and 7 bit Message-ID: <161227027653.23782.5491636323385161554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Claude Setzer wrote: > I am very sorry that I personally do not have a large amount of time to devote > to this, but something I think would be very useful would be to compile a > detailed list of compatible and non-compatible means of transferring 8 bit > character/glyph sets over INTERNET. This discussion is getting pretty technical, but don't know where people are going with this. What follows are technical details and not Indology. So feel free to skip this message. Anything (including binary) can be transferred over the internet without any problems. Basically, what is needed is an e-mail program which is not brain-dead at the sending/receiving end. Pegasus Mail (a free windows program is good). PINE also does a pretty good job. Even the old standby Eudora Light (which is free I believe) will do a credible job. > This could, perhaps be hosted by the Indology Web site. Based on this I think > we might be able to arrange for all or most of the members of Indology to > start using this more complete system. Lot of mailing lists do not allow attachments. If the current list server can handle MIME complaint e-mails, nothing special needs to be done. > I have absolutely no argument with anything you said, but others seem to think > that it is possible to transfer 8 bit character sets even when a 7 bit > encoding scheme is used. The 7 bits has to do more with the communication links than the computer proper. Computer is always 8 bits or 16 bits etc. > I have found that Microsoft's (free) INTERNET mail > software has several methods of encoding 8 bit character sets. Try to get the programs mentioned above, or even Netscape. > My experiments > seem to favor the UUencode method rather than the MIME for transfer of high > characters. (This is the label Microsoft gives it. Their encoding labeled MIME > seems to work less easily. Uuencode gives actual high characters, base 64 > gives gibberish, Quoted gives an = sign followed by the character number on my > email receiver (the one that eliminates the last bit of character map when > sending). But perhaps some simple software would reinterpret the = and > character to give the proper glyph.) UUencode/MIME etc are not Microsoft labels. UUencode has been with with Unix, as far as I can remember (latest version on my machine is dated 1987). MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) originally started with Bellcore I believe in 1991. As a general note, mail systems should not be asking people to choose encoding systems but act transparently. If somebody really wants to get into doing something exotic with mail system, they should read RFC822 for basic e-mail and RFC2045, RCF2046, RFC2047, RFC2048 and RFC2049 for MIME. The best bet to finding working software on Internet - whether mail or for other purposes - is to check whether the software is RFC complaint. If the vendor says, they use "proprietary" software which is "better" than the standard or some other line like that, say a polite "Thanks, but No-Thanks" and don't touch it with a ten foot pole. Of course, if you decide to use it inspite of the warning. learn to live with the consequences. Das ------------------------------------------------------------------- Interested in Vegetarianism? Vegetarian Restaurant Trek Web http://www.VegInfo.com 712 Bancroft Road #320 e-mail info at VegInfo.com (subject Help) Walnut Creek, CA 94598 Interactive Voice/fax Response (510) 256-8420 USA From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Tue Dec 17 03:15:52 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:15:52 +0800 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027639.23782.5128714485170164853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:18 PM 12/16/96 GMT, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > >Chinese speakers make up the speed by eliminating things like definite and >indefinite articles. inflections, tenses, etc. For example, "No ticket, no >take" is a lot faster than "If you don't have a receipt, you can't pick up >the clothes" (NB: In Chinese "ticket" would also be one syllable). Chinese >uses fewer words, and each word is monosyllabic -- that equals faster >speaking time; we start to catch up while their gesturing, but they still >have the edge. > Now I know the orgins of Singlish (Singapore English)! In Singapore you have to speak like "no ticket, no take" to make yourslef understood in shops. If you ever happen to be in S'pore and orders a can of beer (assuming that is a drink you consume), don't be surprised if the bartender answers "Beer can, bottle can, can cannot!!". What he meant is that he can give you beer, he can give you bear in a bottle, but he cannot give you a can of beer! Regards...Das From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Tue Dec 17 17:36:32 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:36:32 -0600 Subject: file corruption and 7 bit Message-ID: <161227027649.23782.15780345961579062076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, you said.... >About the 7-bit problem; the present incarnation of the >Internet protocol is inherently a 7-bit data transport >system. So even if you use an email >program that says it can give and take 8-bit > mail (mine can, for instance), it only works >between certain similarly-enabled hosts............. Thank you for your nice and very informative note. I feel like we are finally getting down to finding some solutions, with your post and several others in the last few days. I am very sorry that I personally do not have a large amount of time to devote to this, but something I think would be very useful would be to compile a detailed list of compatible and non-compatible means of transferring 8 bit character/glyph sets over INTERNET. This could, perhaps be hosted by the Indology Web site. Based on this I think we might be able to arrange for all or most of the members of Indology to start using this more complete system. I have absolutely no argument with anything you said, but others seem to think that it is possible to transfer 8 bit character sets even when a 7 bit encoding scheme is used. I have found that Microsoft's (free) INTERNET mail software has several methods of encoding 8 bit character sets. My experiments seem to favor the UUencode method rather than the MIME for transfer of high characters. (This is the label Microsoft gives it. Their encoding labeled MIME seems to work less easily. Uuencode gives actual high characters, base 64 gives gibberish, Quoted gives an = sign followed by the character number on my email receiver (the one that eliminates the last bit of character map when sending). But perhaps some simple software would reinterpret the = and character to give the proper glyph.) Thanks for your input!! Sincerely , Claude Setzer -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu Tue Dec 17 17:59:49 1996 From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:59:49 -0600 Subject: 7 Vs 8 Bit characters Message-ID: <161227027651.23782.16217865271086692050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Toru (and Kalyanaraman), Thank you very much for your very informative addition to my post. I realize that I left a lot out, due to three things: 1) desire to be brief, 2) wording that was a little inaccurate to remain simple, and 3) my ignorance of some topics. I agree that the proper terminology to use is 8 bit character/glyph sets. I am very excited about the recent trend in sharing information about this problem and think/hope that we can work out a reasonable solution that is free or low cost and lets everyone share full 8 bit character sets, at least on Indology. Please see my note to Dominik suggesting that the Indology Web site host such an attempt. With input form yourself and other knowledgeable people, and a bit of testing, plus maybe a little programming, this should not be an insurmountable problem. Thanks again for your input. Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Tue Dec 17 12:45:50 1996 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 12:45:50 +0000 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027645.23782.11630744060831705235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, i'm looking for a Hindi book with the title "Kissa Tota Myna" or it's English translation "The Story of the Parrot and the Starling". i read that it was also published in Tamil titled "Matankamarajan Katai". Any information about these books which are supposed to be based on "Shukasaptati" would be of great help to me. thanks tobias From jkcowart at io-online.com Tue Dec 17 23:19:24 1996 From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 15:19:24 -0800 Subject: Bottled bears (apology and correction) Message-ID: <161227027660.23782.4843739811739722310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies to Das Menon. A message intended as a humorous personal reply to him, went to the list instead. I am using new e-mail software (but am fully capable of idiotic errors from time to time, even in the best of circumstances). Although what is done is done, I feel I ought to correct the first two lines, to wit: Dear Das Menon: At 03:40 AM 12/17/96 GMT, you wrote: rather than At 03:40 AM 12/17/96 GMT, you wrote: Dear Das Menon: There is no need to repeat the message--only to clarify that he certainly did not write "Dear Das Menon:" to himself. J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From sibal at lily.ho.att.com Tue Dec 17 20:41:25 1996 From: sibal at lily.ho.att.com (sibal at lily.ho.att.com) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 15:41:25 -0500 Subject: Transliteration schemes - minimizing ambiguity Message-ID: <161227027658.23782.7249227546272851504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is an issue I would like to raise with respect to designing transliteration schemes. I have very recently joined this list, so if this is a thread that has been covered before do let me know. I would suspect that most transliteration schemes often use sequences of (7-bit) ASCII characters to represent a character in the native language. In general, this could lead to ambiguities of representation if the sequence of ASCII characters can be broken into subsequences of ASCII characters - where each subsequence is also a representation of a character in the native language. More generally, ambiguities result if any substring in a word of transliterated text can be generated from more than one sequence of characters in the native language. Ambiguities are most problematic for the reader, but can also strain machine reverse transliterators, making the code bulky and slow. Indeed, it is the latter problem, that got me thinking on this issue... In ITRANS (a transliteration scheme for Indian languages devised by Avinash Chopde), for example, such confusions are often resolved by introducing explicit break characters. While transliteration schemes are driven by other objectives, such as phonetic goodness of fit, there are still several degrees of freedom, and choices are made, but in what looks like a heuristic fashion. For example, Velthuis' scheme, ITRANS, and GTRANS (transliteration schemes for Indian Languages) all appear to have a tacit objective of minimizing ambiguities. My question is whether this objective can be formalized to yield a solid design technique? Mathematical machinery (perhaps using abstract algebra), could be used to find the best transliteration scheme (or at least provide hints and suggest properties of a good transliteration scheme). Degrees of freedom in representing a character, classes of policies, etc., can be engineered into the model as constraints, and the best scheme(s) that minimizes or eliminates ambiguities could be found. Such an approach could also yield all possible ambiguities for a given transliteration scheme succinctly, which could be used as as a sanity check before it is formally standardized. It could also provide a "correctness proof" of the transliteration scheme; i.e., make sure that all ambiguities are "taken care of". If there is any such work out there, I would like to know about it. We are planning on designing a generalized transliteration tool in Java/script for Indian languages, that accepts multiple transliteration schemes and reverse transliterates them to ISCII - a character encoding standard for Indian language documents. [These are further used to "automatically" generate glyph codes for various fonts, so they can be viewed in their native script.] Since many folks have their own schemes, a utility that takes an ISCII document and transliterates it back to a user-specified transliteration scheme s/he is comfortable with, will also aid a community of users that use different transliteration standards. (The nice thing about stds is that there are so many of them :-) Designing such tools is greatly simplified if transliteration schemes are not "ambiguous". Of course, it is possible that this formal approach to designing transliteration schemes doesnt get one very far. Perhaps the problem is too unstructured to make it amenable to any sort of useful analysis, or the fruits of labor are few... I dont know yet... does anyone out there? Sandeep. -- Sandeep Sibal AT&T Laboratories Phone: (908) 949-6277 Email: sibal at att.com WWW: http://weed.arch.com.inter.net/~sibal/ From gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Tue Dec 17 19:55:31 1996 From: gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk (Girish Beeharry) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 19:55:31 +0000 Subject: [avinash@acm.org: Re: [Claude_Setzer@fcsmtp.mum.edu: 7 Bit tutorial]] Message-ID: <161227027656.23782.6253894483056594565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, The following forwarded email might be of some interest to members of this list. Bye, Girish Beeharry ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: Sender: achopde at acm.org Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:47:08 -0500 From: Avinash Chopde Organization: None. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csetzer at mum.edu Cc: Girish Beeharry , Nandu Abhyankar Subject: Re: [Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu: 7 Bit tutorial] References: <199612171918.TAA16244 at cass29.ast.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2516 > From: Claude_Setzer at fcsmtp.mum.edu (Claude Setzer) > To: Members of the list > Subject: 7 Bit tutorial >..... > With respect to email, there are two separate problems: body text and attached > files. It is possible for an email system to independently use 7 or 8 bits ... This makes it a problem for people sending 8-bit text, mismatch in e-mail/encode/decode software, though it is not a major problem today. Note that though e-mail protocols are only guaranteed to be 7-bit clean, HTML protocol is 8-bit clean, so WWW pages can contain 8-bit chars. > computers must have a font with the same character placement. This is still a major problem, and this is what makes things so hard. Getting 8-bit text displayed the same on the three major platforms: PC, Mac, UNIX/X11 is a major problem. Even today this is a headache, and there are many tricks that one has to resort to make this work. [I've outlined these tricks in the ITRANS 5.0 home page...] But basically, the reason I bumped into this problem was when I tried to use the CSUtopia font - a 8-bit encoding that includes CS/CSX glyphs on the PC -- it would not work! It also did not work on X11R6, or on the Mac! It only worked correctly with PostScript printers...all the workarounds I learnt in making this work cause me to believe that the computer industry is very slow in making progress, it will still be a year or so when 8-bit fonts will work correctly across the three major platforms, and once that is achieved, then we'll have to suffer a similar "learning" period for Unicode, etc... But yes, I agree with you, we must start with reachable goals, and for now, setting a goal of making a 8-bit font and encoding [one that also works across all platforms] workable is a very good one... Of course, all this matters only if we need text to be transported and input-able on all three platforms. This I think is a major required feature, and if this is not achieved, we'll still continue to have arguments over issues of what is the "best" transliteration and best way to handle Indic Script text... > The point I am trying to make is that computers use 8 bit fonts anyway, and > our lives will probably become much easier and simpler if we put our time into Isn't this already done, with the CS/CSX encoding developed by the Indology group/Dominik Wujastyk? > Claude Setzer csetzer at mum.edu or cssetzer at mum.edu - -- Avinash Chopde e-mail: avinash at acm.org home page: http://www.paranoia.com/~avinash/ ------- End of forwarded message ------- From jkcowart at io-online.com Wed Dec 18 05:59:48 1996 From: jkcowart at io-online.com (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 21:59:48 -0800 Subject: Bottled Bears (explanation) Message-ID: <161227027666.23782.1609124727284843683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems I must have used my new mail software correctly after all and my message went to Das Menon personally, as intended (and not to the list, as feared). Now I feel both more and less foolish at the same time. I am also both sorry to have troubled any who may have gone hunting for "bottled bears," and quite relieved that "there were no bears there"-- even though the message itself was innocuous. Sincerely, J. Kingston Cowart San Diego, California From efb3 at columbia.edu Wed Dec 18 03:15:39 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 22:15:39 -0500 Subject: Indigenous Aryanism Message-ID: <161227027662.23782.3262247374124400132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, George Thompson wrote: >> Indo-Aryan migration theorists assume that retroflexion arises in Skt. > after the separation from the Iranians [whether due to areal influence of > Dravidian languages or independently, i.e., internally]. The indigenous > school will have to account for the disappearance of retroflexion in > Iranian. How do they do this? In the same way, that is, after the separation of the Iranians (from the Indian urheimat). This would seem much easier to defend than the alternative, vis. that retroflexion is lost in other IE languages due to substrate influence outside of India. However, someone once argued that (as anyone teaching first year Hindi in the West will attest), most second or third generation South Asian students dentalize (that is, alveolarize) their retroflexes, as do non SA students (unless absolutely forced not to). This would be analogous to second or third generation IE's loosing the ability to retroflex, and the indigenous people in the new countries being incapable of articulating them. However, obviously the first option would be easier to defend, since pursuing the latter option would involve a resanskritization of proto-IE (and more or less every change postulated in the proto-language in the last century or so has been a step towards desanskritizing it). Besides, even in the days of Schlegel and Bopp, who depended so heavily on Sanskrit for their reconstructions, the proto-language was never considered to have had retroflexes on the basis of the Sanskrit evidence alone. And do they know whether, from the point of > view of language typology, the loss of retroflexion is more "natural" or > common than the introduction of it as a phonemic process? I've never come across any opinions on this. But since phonemic features can be lost or borrowed, how does this affect the issue? Is there a status quo regarding the more "natural" process amongst linguists? > how> do Indigenous Aryan theorists deal with the notion of a So. Asian > linguistic area? If we assume instead, as it seems to me the > Indigenous Aryan model must, that these and other features are > systematically lost in Iranian [rather than acquired in Indo-Aryan], then > this must be justified in terms of what might be expected in light of what > is known about the behavior of languages in general. Has anyone made an > attempt to look into this? I'm not sure why, from the perspective of this model, we must assume that Iranian (and by extension, all IE languages) lost these features as opposed to such features being developed by Indo-Aryan after the departure of the other dialects. It seems to me that the best way of dealing with this, from the perspective of the Indigenous Aryan school, would be to argue that these developments could have occured spontaneously in the subcontinent in conjunction with Dravidian and Munda and in accordance with the typology of areal features after the other dialects (including Iranian) had departed. Alternatively, if only Iranian has to be accounted for, it could be argued that the isoglosses affecting Indo-Aryan, Dravidian and Munda did not reach the Iranian dialect which was way up in the North West. How would these arguments be refuted? Good to hear from you again. Best, Edwin From efb3 at columbia.edu Wed Dec 18 03:45:26 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 22:45:26 -0500 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027664.23782.15523225998373632793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > As far as I can see, almost everything Frawley says in this passage is wrong, as are his far-reaching conclusions based on his errors. Fair enough--and I can find plenty of arguments from the Indig. Aryan school that are far worse (and wackier) than that. However, three comments (my apologies to RISA members for any repetition): 1) We should not forget the excesses of philological speculation that was accepted by Western Aryan Invasionists for decades. A good example was the translation of the word anaasa, used once in the Rig in conjunction with the daasas. This was construed as a-naasa (noseless). The daasas were thereby depicted as noseless aborigines and the Aryans, by extension, as straight nosed. Sayana construes the word as an-asa (mouthless, that is, devoid of fair speech, uncouth). But this was not as appealing to 19th century racial theorists. The same could be said for other racially interpreted passages relating to the Daasas. 2) Some of the scholarship of the Indig. Aryan school is puerile, completely uncritical, or distastefully Hindutva oriented. But there are some very serious voices who are sincerely trying to reexamine the way their ancient history has been reconstructed for them by their erstwhile colonial masters. And there is plenty that needs reexamining. Different genres and standards of scholarship should not all be simplistically stereotyped and lumped into one comical category, or automatically demonized as 'nationalistic'--though some of it (but by no means all) blatantly is. 3)I have personally found, since I examine all these different genres, that even someone who makes a wacky, uncritical or even bigoted (however unpleasant these can sometimes be) statement in one place, can make quite a convincing point in another. Best Wishes, Edwin Bryant From fp7 at columbia.edu Wed Dec 18 14:26:31 1996 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 09:26:31 -0500 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027672.23782.9667322237532137611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote: > Dear members of the list, > i'm looking for a Hindi book with the title "Kissa Tota Myna" or it's > English translation "The Story of the Parrot and the Starling". > i read that it was also published in Tamil titled "Matankamarajan Katai". > Any information about these books which are supposed to be based on > "Shukasaptati" would be of great help to me. > thanks > tobias > > > This is of course not a single work but a genre. I discussed it in a chapter of my dissertation, published as *Marvelous Encounters: Folk Romance in Urdu and Hindi* (Delhi: Manohar Publications, and Riverdale, MD: The Riverdale Company, 1985). I analyzed the Hindi/Urdu folk pamphlet tradition--and it is one such pamphlet that the printed book you mention translates. The book itself was called *The Parrot and the Starling*, trans. by K. P. Bahadur (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1977). The Shukasaptati connection is not that close-- these are stories of rivalry between a male parrot and a female mynah, about which sex is the more worthless, men or women. After they have bashed each other energetically, taking turns and scoring debating points with no holds barred, they end up getting married. And a happy holiday season to all..... :) From FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de Wed Dec 18 10:40:50 1996 From: FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Maitrimurti) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 10:40:50 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Re: request for info. Message-ID: <161227027668.23782.5949861685601047025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded message: From: Self To: Royce Wiles Subject: Re: request for info. Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:12:17 > Date sent: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:11:31 GMT > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: Royce Wiles > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: request for info. > > Off the top of my head I'd suggest checking the dictionary detailed below. > The Abhidhanarajendrakosa could also be worth checking. I'd look myself > but the library here has already closed for the weekend. > > Jaina-laksanavali : Jaina paribhasika sabda-kosa = An > authentic and descriptive dictionary of Jaina philosophical terms / > sampadaka Balacandra Sastir. Dilli: Vira Seva Mandira, 1972-76. 3 > volumes. [Second printing 1979 I think.] Thanks for the help. A pity, though - the Lak.sa.naavalii doesn't record the terms anywhere. Srinivasan From FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de Wed Dec 18 10:41:16 1996 From: FO4A007 at rrz-cip-1.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Maitrimurti) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 10:41:16 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Re: kaara.naat paapam Message-ID: <161227027670.23782.2097552741623307339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded message: From: Self To: "Robert J. Zydenbos" Subject: Re: kaara.naat paapam Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:56:58 > Date sent: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:55:19 GMT > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: "Robert J. Zydenbos" > To: Members of the list > Subject: kaara.naat paapam > mm> Prof. S.A. Srinivasan [...] is interested in sources for and > mm> information and clarification regarding the terms kaara.naat > mm> paapa.m and kaara.naat pu.nya.m. The terms are encountered in the > mm> commentary by Samaradivaakara to the Jain text Niilake"sii. > > I do not know that particular text, but it seems to me a technical term > from Jaina karmasiddhaanta. I came across it in my study of Jaina > ritualism. > > There are three ways in which both kinds of karmic influx (pu.nya as well > as paapa) are bound: through doing (kara.na), causing to be done by > somebody else (kaara.na) and approval of somebody else's doing > (anumodana). [Recently I have written a little about this in a note in my > article on "The Ritual Giving of Food to a Digambara Renunciant", which is > about to appear in the volume of collected papers of the conference > "Approaches to Jaina Studies: Philosophy, Logic, Rituals and Symbols" held > in Toronto last year. This book should appear with the Univ. of Toronto > press.] > > The phrase "kaara.naat paapam" would therefore mean that the person in > question accumulates bad karma not through any act which he himself has > committed, but because he has made somebody else commit that act. (Please > ask Prof. Srinivasan whether this makes sense in the context of his > reading.) > > Robert Zydenbos > Thanks for your help. There is no doubt at all as to what kaara.naat paapa/pu.nya mean. They intend indirect causation in the sense, for example, respectively, of not slaying yet eating meat with the result that the meat eater accumulates the paapa of slaying, and of worshipping the bodhi tree -- because it evokes veneration of the Buddha -- with the result that the worshipper obtains the pu.nya of Buddha worship. What I wanted to know was whether the expressions <> are found elsewhere, and it seems that they aren't. Samayadivaakara becomes intelligible only on the assumption that the terms were so well known that they called for no comment, though he (he? somebody else? he himself in an after thought?) does define them in the above sense at a <> point, but <> at their first mention. Srinivasan From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Dec 18 17:55:01 1996 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 12:55:01 -0500 Subject: Maisonneuve Message-ID: <161227027674.23782.8729438038935816703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know if the publishing house in Paris, Adrien Maisonneuve, has an email address, or if not, might someone inform me of their fax number? thanks in advance! Jonathan Silk From tatelman at total.net Wed Dec 18 15:10:20 1996 From: tatelman at total.net (Joel Tatelman) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 15:10:20 +0000 Subject: Maisonneuve Message-ID: <161227027675.23782.2251415726223735687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Jonathan Silk's request for an e-mail address or fax no. for Maisonneuve publishers in Paris, the best I can do is the following information from the cover of their 1993 catalogue: Librairie d'Am?rique et d'Orient Adrien Maisonneuve Jean Maisonneuve, Successeur 11, Rue Saint-Sulpice, Paris VIe, France. Tel.: (1) 43 26 86 35 Fax: (1) 43 54 59 54 Hope this helps. Joel. Joel Tatelman #2-293A Roncesvalles Ave. Toronto, Ontario, M6R 2M3 Canada. Tel.: (416) 535-4997 E-mail: tatelman at total.net From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Wed Dec 18 21:43:26 1996 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Hueckstedt) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 15:43:26 -0600 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027677.23782.16904260174634239976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Tobias Grote-Beverborg asked about the Qissa Tota-Mynah. Frances Pritchett has given a good answer about the genre. On a more mundane level, a Hindi text can be found at the Hindi Book Centre, Asaf Ali Road, Delhi. In addition to the printed text, it also comes as an audio book. Last summer I listened and read that version of the collection of the stories that make up the debate about which sex is inherently noble and which inherently worthless, male or female. In this version, the female (I forget which bird is which sex) agrees that indeed her sex is the worthless, or at least untrustworthy, one. The Hindi is highly sanskritized. An author is named, but I forget his name. The cassette tapes (4) were quite good, except for one that was almost inaudible. Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies fax 1 204-261-4483 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From pdb1 at columbia.edu Thu Dec 19 19:53:29 1996 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 14:53:29 -0500 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027683.23782.5704952357884054030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 19 Dec 1996, Tobias Grote-Beverborg wrote: > thanks for replying to my query, especially to Frances Pritchett whom i > would like to ask for some more facts. unfortunately while saving his > message in my word-programm his address didn't get saved. please, send > it to me. _Her_ address is fp7 at columbia.edu. (Rule of thumb, for non-Anglophones: In English, men bearing the given name of the Saint of Assisi use the spelling "Francis," and women "Frances.") (Also, women are more likely to call themeselves and be called "Fran," but this rule is _much_ less reliable...) -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu "For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." From jb.tuemmers at uni-koeln.de Thu Dec 19 14:40:49 1996 From: jb.tuemmers at uni-koeln.de (=?utf-8?Q?Johannes_B=2E_T=C3=BCmmers_MA?=) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 15:40:49 +0100 Subject: Asaramshi Message-ID: <161227027679.23782.16958396455135828486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I am looking for informations about "Sant Shree Asaramshi in Ahmedabad" on behalf of a friend. She has been in India and wants to know more about this teacher. Any suggestions are apprechiated. happy X-mas, J. Tuemmers -- Johannes B. Tuemmers jb.tuemmers at uni-koeln.de http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/jtjt2.htm From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Dec 19 16:15:17 1996 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 16:15:17 +0000 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027681.23782.11202257602347136456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear members, thanks for replying to my query, especially to Frances Pritchett whom i would like to ask for some more facts. unfortunately while saving his message in my word-programm his address didn't get saved. please, send it to me. still any information about "Kissa Tota Myna" is welcome. thankstobias From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Fri Dec 20 01:10:54 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 17:10:54 -0800 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027687.23782.1142863710821342630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: December 19, 1996 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, Can anyone suggest references (in English) on water in Indian culture? I am particularly interested in environmental concepts such as finding sources of water (water dosing), conceptions of subsurface water (Patalaloka; Nagas and water; the idea that all rivers and underground water are linked to the Ganges) concepts of water and purity, means of purifying water, both ritually and in terms of sanitation, and myths related to all of the above. It is that time of year which the university administration (where DO we get these people??) calls "vacation" and so closes the university library! Peter J. Claus fax: (510) 704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Dec 20 03:30:37 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 21:30:37 -0600 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027690.23782.6048753677928312711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter J. Claus wrote: > > Date: December 19, 1996 > > Indology List > indology at Liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Members, > > Can anyone suggest references (in English) on water in > Indian culture? I am particularly interested in > environmental concepts such as finding sources of water > (water dosing), conceptions of subsurface water > (Patalaloka; Nagas and water; the idea that all rivers > and underground water are linked to the Ganges) > concepts of water and purity, means of purifying water, > both ritually and in terms of sanitation, and myths > related to all of the above. > > It is that time of year which the university > administration (where DO we get these people??) calls > "vacation" and so closes the university library! > > > > > Peter J. Claus > fax: (510) 704-9636 > pclaus at csuhayward.edu A recent work on the rivers of Maharashtra includes some general observations on "sacred waters" in Indian tradition. Feldhaus, Anne. Water and Womanhood - Religious Meanings of Rivers in Maharashtra. New York: Oxford University Press, 1995. Regards, Devesh From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Dec 19 22:14:33 1996 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 22:14:33 +0000 Subject: He is a She Message-ID: <161227027685.23782.17325365788227570762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear members! i hope Frances Pritchett doesn't feel offended for my mistake. sorry, i'm not very familiar with foreign first names, somehow i must have had a German "Franz" in my mind. anyhow, i'd still like to get in touch with Frances. thank you. tobias From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 20 17:20:33 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 11:20:33 -0600 Subject: Parijata Message-ID: <161227027696.23782.5348771465835922857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Parijatapaharanam I could find the following references. Hope more people take up the study of Dravidian languages & cultures. N. Ganesan ************************************************************************************************** Srikrsna parijata janapada saili, Bhama kalapamu kucipudi saili : tulanatmaka samskrtika adhyayana / Em. Ti. Dhupada. Dharavada : Prasaranga, Karnataka Visvavidyalaya, 1984. 137 p., [5] leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm SUBJECTS: Krishna (Hindu deity) Folk dancing--India--Karnataka. Folk dancing--India--Andhra Pradesh. Karnataka (India)--Religious life and customs. Andhra Pradesh (India)--Religious life and customs. Janapada sahityamale ; 33 In Kannada. Comparative study of the presentation of the themes from the life of Krishna (Hindu deity) in the folk dance form of Karnataka and the Kuchipudi dance form of Andhra Pradesh. ************************************************************************* - Title: Rajapalayam rajakavula yaksaganamulu / pariskarta Timmavajjhala Kodandaramayya. - Edition: - 1st ed. - Published: - Rajapalayam, Tamilanadu : Telugu Vidyalayamu : Distributers , Viswasanthi Pathippagam, 1981. - Description: - 24, 128 p. : geneal. table ; 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): Telugu drama--India--Tamil Nadu. Telugu drama--17th century. Yaksagana plays. - - Rajapalayam rajakavula yaksaganamulu - Summary: - Collection of 17th century rustic dance dramas (yaksagana) by poets of Rajapalayam, Tamil Nadu. - Notes: - In Telugu. - Other contributors: - Gottumukkala Krsnamaraju, 17th cent. Sitakalyanam. 1981. Gottumukkala Singaraju, 17th cent. Parijatapaharanam. 1981. Gottumukkala Kumarapeddiraju, 17th cent. Savitri. 1981. ************************************************************************* - Author: - Nandi Timmana, 16th cent. - Title: Parijatapaharanamu. - Published: - 1978. - Description: - 31, xxii, 356, 9 p. ill. 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): Krishna (Hindu deity)--Poetry. - ************************************************************************* - Kamalamani, Cerukuri, 1926- Parijatam. - <1971>. - 150 p. 18 cm. In Telugu. A novel. ************************************************************************* - Author: - Laksmipatiravu, Vakkalanka. Parijatasaurabhamu. - 1970>. - 24, 82 p. 19 cm. Krishnadeva Raya, King of Vijayanagar, d. 1529 or 30--Poetry. In Telugu. ************************************************************************* - Nandi Timmana, 16th cent. Mukkutimmanaryaviracita Parijatapaharanamu. - 1968. - Description: - 23, 384 p. 22 cm. In Telugu. Ramamurtisastri, Dusi. ed. ************************************************************************* - Author: - Tarigonda Venkamamba, fl. 1840. Visnu parijatamu. - Published: - <1965>. - Description: - xii, 163 p. 22 cm. Krishna (Hindu deity)--Poetry. In Telugu. A poem. Laksmikanthamma, Utukuri. 1917- ed. ************************************************************************* ************************************************************************* - Author: - Krsna, 16th cent. - Title: - Parijataharanacampuh / Krsnaviracita ; sampadakah Dvijendranathamisrah. - Edition: - 1. samskaranam. - Published: - Varanasyam : Sampurnanandasamskrtavisvavidyalayasya, 1991. - Description: - 31, 4, 61 p. ; 23 cm. Poem, in mixed verse and prose (campu) on Krishna (Hindu deity). ************************************************************************* - Author: - Krsna, 16th cent. - Title: - Parijataharanacampuh / Sesasrikrsnaviracita ; Panditadurgaprasadena Parabopahvapandurangatmajakasinathasarmana ca samsodhita, Panasikaropahvalaksmanasarmatmajavasudevasarmana. - Published: - New Delhi : Munsirama Manoharalala, 1983. - Description: - 6, <5>-50 p. ; 22 cm. ************************************************************************* ************************************************************************************************** Laxetti, Balesh Shankarappa, 1936- Kalajyoti Di. Kaujalagi Ningamma avara Srikrsna parijata Balesa Laksetti. Hulikatti : Sri Basavanneppa Kedarappa Badigera, 1977. ii, 6 p. : ill. ; 19 cm. In Kannada. ************************************************************************************************** [Parijata prasanga] Yaksagana Parijata prasanga. Udupi : Pavanje Gururav, 1895 [1972] 37 p. ; 20 cm. Gururav, Pavanje. In Kannada. ************************************************************************************************** From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Fri Dec 20 21:25:02 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 13:25:02 -0800 Subject: Parijata Message-ID: <161227027702.23782.1655109007529658494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah, yes. This is the Kannada reference I couldn't find when replying myself to the earlier inquiry on Satyabhama. It gives a number of sources, including a classical Bengali rendition on which the various Kannada and Telugu works probably rely (via Oriya sources). Of course one has to read Kannada.... Thanks, Ganesan. Peter Claus On Fri, 20 Dec 1996, Ganesan wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:37:50 GMT > From: Ganesan > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Parijata > > > Re: Parijatapaharanam > > I could find the following references. Hope more people take up the study of > Dravidian languages & cultures. > > N. Ganesan > > ************************************************************************************************** > > Srikrsna parijata janapada saili, Bhama kalapamu kucipudi > saili : tulanatmaka samskrtika adhyayana / Em. Ti. Dhupada. > Dharavada : Prasaranga, Karnataka Visvavidyalaya, 1984. 137 p., [5] > leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm > > SUBJECTS: > Krishna (Hindu deity) Folk dancing--India--Karnataka. > Folk dancing--India--Andhra Pradesh. > Karnataka (India)--Religious life and customs. > Andhra Pradesh (India)--Religious life and customs. > Janapada sahityamale ; 33 > In Kannada. > Comparative study of the presentation of the themes from the life of Krishna > (Hindu deity) in the folk dance form of Karnataka and the Kuchipudi dance > form of Andhra Pradesh. > > ************************************************************************* > > - Title: > Rajapalayam rajakavula yaksaganamulu / pariskarta > Timmavajjhala Kodandaramayya. > - Edition: > - 1st ed. > - Published: > - Rajapalayam, Tamilanadu : Telugu Vidyalayamu : Distributers > , Viswasanthi Pathippagam, 1981. > - Description: > - 24, 128 p. : geneal. table ; 22 cm. > - Subjects (use s=): > Telugu drama--India--Tamil Nadu. > Telugu drama--17th century. > Yaksagana plays. > - > - Rajapalayam > rajakavula > yaksaganamulu > > - Summary: > - Collection of 17th century rustic dance dramas (yaksagana) by > > poets of Rajapalayam, Tamil Nadu. > > - Notes: > - > In Telugu. > > - Other contributors: > - > > Gottumukkala Krsnamaraju, 17th cent. Sitakalyanam. 1981. > > Gottumukkala Singaraju, 17th cent. Parijatapaharanam. 1981. > > Gottumukkala Kumarapeddiraju, 17th cent. Savitri. 1981. > > ************************************************************************* > - Author: > - Nandi Timmana, 16th cent. > - Title: > Parijatapaharanamu. > - Published: > - 1978. > - Description: > - 31, xxii, 356, 9 p. ill. 22 cm. > - Subjects (use s=): > Krishna (Hindu deity)--Poetry. > - > ************************************************************************* > > - Kamalamani, Cerukuri, 1926- > Parijatam. > - <1971>. > - 150 p. 18 cm. > In Telugu. > A novel. > > ************************************************************************* > > - Author: > - Laksmipatiravu, Vakkalanka. > Parijatasaurabhamu. > - 1970>. > - 24, 82 p. 19 cm. > Krishnadeva Raya, King of Vijayanagar, d. 1529 or 30--Poetry. > In Telugu. > ************************************************************************* > > - Nandi Timmana, 16th cent. > Mukkutimmanaryaviracita Parijatapaharanamu. > - 1968. > - Description: > - 23, 384 p. 22 cm. > In Telugu. > Ramamurtisastri, Dusi. ed. > ************************************************************************* > > - Author: > - Tarigonda Venkamamba, fl. 1840. > > Visnu parijatamu. > - Published: > - <1965>. > - Description: > - xii, 163 p. 22 cm. > Krishna (Hindu deity)--Poetry. > In Telugu. > A poem. > Laksmikanthamma, Utukuri. 1917- ed. > ************************************************************************* > > ************************************************************************* > - Author: > - Krsna, 16th cent. > - Title: > - > Parijataharanacampuh / Krsnaviracita ; sampadakah > Dvijendranathamisrah. > - Edition: > - 1. samskaranam. > - Published: > - Varanasyam : Sampurnanandasamskrtavisvavidyalayasya, 1991. > - Description: > - 31, 4, 61 p. ; 23 cm. > Poem, in mixed verse and prose (campu) on Krishna (Hindu > deity). > ************************************************************************* > > - Author: > - Krsna, 16th cent. > - Title: > - > Parijataharanacampuh / Sesasrikrsnaviracita ; > Panditadurgaprasadena > Parabopahvapandurangatmajakasinathasarmana ca samsodhita, > Panasikaropahvalaksmanasarmatmajavasudevasarmana. > - Published: > - New Delhi : Munsirama Manoharalala, 1983. > - Description: > - 6, <5>-50 p. ; 22 cm. > > ************************************************************************* > > ************************************************************************************************** > > Laxetti, Balesh Shankarappa, 1936- > Kalajyoti Di. Kaujalagi Ningamma avara Srikrsna parijata > Balesa Laksetti. Hulikatti : Sri Basavanneppa Kedarappa > Badigera, 1977. ii, 6 p. : ill. ; 19 cm. > In Kannada. > > ************************************************************************************************** > > [Parijata prasanga] > Yaksagana Parijata prasanga. Udupi : Pavanje Gururav, 1895 [1972] > 37 p. ; 20 cm. > Gururav, Pavanje. > In Kannada. > > ************************************************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 20 19:46:39 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 13:46:39 -0600 Subject: Parijata - Thanks Message-ID: <161227027700.23782.16998257774539383088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Any additional citations would be greatly appreciated. > You may contact Prof. Velcheru Narayanarao, Univ. of Madison, Wisconsin. He will know much more on Telugu literaure. His e-mail: vnrao at facstaff.wisc.edu Truly N. Ganesan > Kind Regards, > Devesh > > From PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 20 14:40:33 1996 From: PANDEY at HUDCE.HARVARD.EDU (Rita Vimal-Pandey) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 14:40:33 +0000 Subject: 2 questions Message-ID: <161227027692.23782.7685624614163827482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have two questions: 1. What are the 3 vows of bride and 7 vows of bridegroom in traditional northern Indian marriage. Where is it written e.g. Manu Smriti xx? 2. Is there a Hindi translation, of Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frenkl, exists? Thanks in advance. Rita From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Dec 20 21:11:02 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 15:11:02 -0600 Subject: Parijata - Thanks Message-ID: <161227027698.23782.3034899842692221811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much for the references (esp. the Telugu ones) on Parijatapaharana Nataka. The reference to a printed edition of Tarigonda Venkamba's "Srivisnu Parijatamu" is invaluable. Many thanks again. Any additional citations would be greatly appreciated. Kind Regards, Devesh From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 20 21:42:49 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 15:42:49 -0600 Subject: Parijata Message-ID: <161227027704.23782.3623748496276307240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Venkamamba *************** > Savitri, Di. > Mirabai evam Venkamamba : eka tulanatmaka adhyayana / Di. > Savitri. 1. samskarana. Ongola, Andhra Pradesa : Sahitya Sadana ; > Haidarabada, A. Pra. : Pramukha vikreta Milinda Prakasana, 1986. 512 p. > : ill. ; 23 cm. > Content-Length: 528 > > Mirabai, fl.1516-1546--Criticism and interpretation. > Tarigonda Vengamamba, 19th cent.--Criticism and interpretation. > > Comparative study of Meerabai and Venkamamba. > > NOTES: > In Hindi. > Title on added t.p.: A comparative study of Meerabai and Venkamamba. > Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Andhra Pradesa > Visvavidyalaya) > Comparative study of Mirabai, fl. 1516-1546, Hindi woman religious poet > and Tarigonda Vengamamba, 19th cent., Telugu woman religious poet. > Bibliography: p. 498-509. > > From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Fri Dec 20 15:15:14 1996 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 16:15:14 +0100 Subject: Maisonneuve Message-ID: <161227027694.23782.15244715328901033778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anyone know if the publishing house in Paris, Adrien Maisonneuve, has an >email address, or if not, might someone inform me of their fax number? >thanks in advance! > Fax number: +33.1.43545954 Johannes Bronkhorst From AmitaSarin at aol.com Fri Dec 20 22:07:24 1996 From: AmitaSarin at aol.com (AmitaSarin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 17:07:24 -0500 Subject: New Message (water in Indian culture) Message-ID: <161227027706.23782.2350807999081394906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Ganges in Myth and History by Steven G. Darian (Univ. Press of Hawaii, 1978) should have pertinent material. Regards, Amita Sarin From athr at loc.gov Fri Dec 20 23:09:24 1996 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 18:09:24 -0500 Subject: Water in Indian culture Message-ID: <161227027711.23782.9761651650802583782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think Ananda Coomaraswamy discusses the question length in _Yakshas_. Also see Frederik Bosch's _The Golden Germ_. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4814 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 email: athr at loc.gov From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Sat Dec 21 00:42:05 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 18:42:05 -0600 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027708.23782.11911005668689804626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the Email or mailing address of Dr. Saskia Kersenboom-Story (author of "Nityasumangali")? Devesh Soneji University of Manitoba rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca From pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu Sat Dec 21 15:28:49 1996 From: pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu (Peter J. Claus) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 07:28:49 -0800 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027719.23782.9866956533338954483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Each of the folk traditions Ganesan mentions also has its equivalent in Telugu and Kannada (and no doubt other Indian languages). Again, however, I don't think there are any translations of the considerable work on these traditions Indian scholars have done over the past several decades. The Kuravanji-type traditions (but so, too are the others, from my limited experience) are amazingly clever and entertaining. It's a shame they have never been described in Western languages. It's another example of how our neglect of folk traditions has hampered our overall research and understanding of SA traditions. On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Ganesan wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:59:43 GMT > From: Ganesan > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Kissa Tota Myna > > > Tobias asked about MadanakAmarAjan's story. It is available in translation. > I don't recall that it is about which gender is better. But there are > lot more debates in Tamil folk settings. > > eg., > > thAy makaL Ecal - Mother teasing her daughter(D) about D's new love affair; > > kuRavanji - quarrels/debates amongst a couple (Singan & Singi) > > paLLu - debates on various themes (like Saiva & Vaishnava - which is > better) between two wives of `paLLan` (agricultural servant) > > No book length studies have appeared in any Western language. > > N. Ganesan > > > Two Tamil folktales : The story of King Matanakama, The story of Peacock > > Ravana / translated from the Tamil by Kamil V. Zvelebil. 1st ed. Delhi : > > Motilal Banarsidass ; Paris : Unesco, 1987. lvii, 236 p. ; 23 cm. > > SUBJECTS: > > Folk literature, Tamil--Translations into English. > > > > OTHER NAMES: > > Zvelebil, Kamil. > > > > OTHER TITLES: > > Matanakamarajankatai. English. 1987. > > Mayiliravanan katai. English. 1987. > > > UNESCO collection of representative works. Indian series > > From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Sat Dec 21 14:51:47 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 08:51:47 -0600 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027716.23782.15914113615765257485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tobias asked about MadanakAmarAjan's story. It is available in translation. I don't recall that it is about which gender is better. But there are lot more debates in Tamil folk settings. eg., thAy makaL Ecal - Mother teasing her daughter(D) about D's new love affair; kuRavanji - quarrels/debates amongst a couple (Singan & Singi) paLLu - debates on various themes (like Saiva & Vaishnava - which is better) between two wives of `paLLan` (agricultural servant) No book length studies have appeared in any Western language. N. Ganesan > Two Tamil folktales : The story of King Matanakama, The story of Peacock > Ravana / translated from the Tamil by Kamil V. Zvelebil. 1st ed. Delhi : > Motilal Banarsidass ; Paris : Unesco, 1987. lvii, 236 p. ; 23 cm. SUBJECTS: > Folk literature, Tamil--Translations into English. > > OTHER NAMES: > Zvelebil, Kamil. > > OTHER TITLES: > Matanakamarajankatai. English. 1987. > Mayiliravanan katai. English. 1987. > UNESCO collection of representative works. Indian series From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Sat Dec 21 15:20:00 1996 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 09:20:00 -0600 Subject: elakesi Message-ID: <161227027718.23782.6186663991164877650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Neelakesi. ************** Neelakesi is a rare, ancient Jaina epic available in Tamil. It refutes KuntalakEci, a buddhist work. Unfortunately, Kuntalakeci is lost forever. Only very few poems from Kuntalakeci exist, thanks to some old commentaries on tamil classical literature. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov ********************************************************************* A. Chakravarti Neelakesi, 2nd edition, Jaipur: Prakrit Bharati Academi, 1994. 320 p. ********************************************************************* - Author: - Nilakeci. - Title: Neelakesi, the original text and the commentary of Samaya- Divakara-Vamana-Muni / Edited and published, by A. Chakravarti. - Published: - Kumbakonam, 1936. - Description: - x, <1>, 339, iii, 484 p. 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): - Jaina poetry - Notes: - Cover title. In Tamil, introductory matter in English. Bibliography: p. <1>-iii (4th group). - Summary: - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work "Kuntalakeci". - Other contributors: - Samayadivakara-Vamana Muni. Chakravarti, A. ed. ********************************************************************* - Author: - Cunantatevi, Cu., 1942- Camanak kappiyankal : Nilakeci, Civaka Cintamani, Yacotara kaviyam / Cu. Cunantatevi. - Published: - Cennai : Vijayalatcumi Patippakam : Virpanai urimai, Payoniyar Puk Carvicas, 1988. Epic literature, Tamil--History and criticism. Jaina literature, Tamil--History and criticism. Study of selected Jaina Tamil epics. ********************************************************************* Nilakeci / Camayativakaravamana Munivar uraiyutan. - Published: - Tancavur : Tamilp Palkalaik Kalakam, 1984. - Description: - 1 v. (various pagings) ; 22 cm. Jaina poetry, Tamil - Summary: - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work "Kuntalakeci". - Notes: In Tamil; introd. in English. Edited by A. Chakravarti. Reprint. Originally published: Kumbakonam : A. Chakravarti, 1936. Chakravarti, A. (Appasami), 1880-1960. ********************************************************************* - Title: - Nilakeci. - Edition: - <1st ed.>. - Published: - 1964. - Description: - 75, 760 p. 22 cm. - Subjects (use s=): - Jainism--Relations - Notes: In Tamil. - Other contributors: Somasundaram, P. V. 1909- ed. ********************************************************************* From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Sat Dec 21 18:08:16 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 12:08:16 -0600 Subject: Kuravanji Message-ID: <161227027721.23782.17322617326982720873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though Ganesan and Peter are correct in observing that there are no book-length studies of Kuravanci, an excellent paper has been prepared on the subject by Indira Peterson (who I believe is actually working on a book-length version): "The Play of the Kuravanci Fortuneteller: Pluralistic Discourses of Identity in an 18th Century South Indian Literary Genre" (originally prepared for the Workshop on Cultural Production and Cultural History in the Middle East and South Asia, and later for the AAS). Regards, Devesh From grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de Sat Dec 21 12:43:49 1996 From: grotebev at uni-duesseldorf.de (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 12:43:49 +0000 Subject: Kissa Tota Myna Message-ID: <161227027713.23782.14577640031290185515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list! I've been addressed as _Dr._ Grote-Beverborg and though I feel honoured I must correct that mistake immediately. I'm not a Doctor, just an ordinary student of Indology. Thank You. Yours tobias From IMILEWS at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl Sat Dec 21 13:47:33 1996 From: IMILEWS at Vela.filg.uj.edu.pl (Iwona Milewska) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 13:47:33 +0000 Subject: Indiagain Message-ID: <161227027714.23782.8431339818793742247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 99% ! I. From deepak at ksu.edu Sat Dec 21 22:41:14 1996 From: deepak at ksu.edu (deepak at ksu.edu) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 16:41:14 -0600 Subject: contact Message-ID: <161227027723.23782.8820777321290743439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know contact address or email of Raimundo Panikkar? Thanks in advance. regards deepak D E E P A K G U P T A ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ email: deepak at unix.ksu.edu Internet: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~deepak Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS, Phone: 913-532-0659 / 3777 From spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sun Dec 22 20:55:38 1996 From: spmittal at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 15:55:38 -0500 Subject: Q: Norman fonts Message-ID: <161227027725.23782.12177504935577293749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Devanagari True Type Font named "NARAD" based on Remington Hindi Typewriter Keyboard is available for sale at a price of US$195.00 This can be ordered from : D.K. Agencies (P) Ltd. Regards Surya ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: D.K. AGENCIES (P) LTD. Fax: (+91-11) 5598898, 5558898 A/15-17 Mohan Garden Phones: (011) 5598897, 5598899 Najafgarh Road E-mail: dka at pobox.com New Delhi - 110 059. E-Mail: indbook.dka at axcess.net.in Our Webpage http://www.dkagencies.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arash Zeini wrote: > > I am searching for Devanagari fonts for Windows 95. > Can anybody help me to find them ? > It would be very good to have True Type ones. > Thanh you. From swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Sun Dec 22 21:01:26 1996 From: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 21:01:26 +0000 Subject: FINAL CIRCULAR - Xth World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore Message-ID: <161227027726.23782.11514145705004830755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Xth WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE - 1997 (Silver Jubilee Year) Taralabalu Kendra, Bangalore [ INDIA ] (3-9 January 1997) __________________________________________________________________ FINAL CIRCULAR Dear Participants, The conference is fast approaching. You must be busy making necessary preparations for your journey to India. As the day of the conference is coming closer, the conference secreatariat has been flooded with e-mails/fax/letters. The conference staff has been working overtime and inspite of this, it is possible that personal attention to some of your requirements may not have been given. Scheduling of papers has been one of the difficult jobs of the conference, since there are some last minute cancellations. Special requests from scholars to schedule their papers on a particular date to suit their travel plans, have been taken care of. Information about the paper schedule will be made available in the Registration Kit. Please note that the inauguration of the conference will be held in the banquet hall of VIDHANA SOUDHA, the Karnataka State Legislature Building, on 4th Jan 1997 (Saturday) at 10 am. For security reasons, you need to carry the name tag provided in the Registration Kit to get entry into the banquet hall. Registration Kit will be given to you on the day of Registration (3rd January) at the reception counter of TARALABALU KENDRA, the conference secretariat, where all the academic sessions will be held. The general outlay of the programme is as follows: *Venue: Taralabalu Kendra, R T Nagar, Bangalore __________________________________________________________________ 3.1.1997 Fri Arrival 11am - 6pm Registration at Taralabalu Kendra 6pm - 8pm Get-together/ Dinner _________________________________________________________________ 4.1.1997 Sat 10am Inaugural Session at Vidhana Soudha 3pm - 6pm Academic Sessions at Taralabalu Kendra _________________________________________________________________ 5.1.1997 Sun 9am - 5pm Academic Sessions _________________________________________________________________ 6.1.1997 Mon Full Day In-conference Tours (four options): 1. Srirangapatna/Mysore 2. Sravanabelagola/Belur-Halebeed 3. Tirupati and 4. City Tour __________________________________________________________________ 7.1.1997 Tue 9am - 5pm Academic Sessions 8.1.1997 Wed 9am - 5pm Academic Sessions 6pm - 9pm Closing Session/Cultural programmes/Dinner __________________________________________________________________ 9.1.1997 Thu Departure __________________________________________________________________ SPECIAL PANELS: Panel 1: Contribution of Karnataka for Sanskrit Literature Panel 2: Sanskrit and Computing (Workshop 1: "On the Computer Sanskrit Extended character encoding: retrospect and future development" and Workshop 2: "On standards for the transliteration of Devanagari text using only ASCII characters" ) Panel 3: Preservation of Manuscripts Panel 4: Sanskrit and Agriculture ___________________________________________________________________ PANDIT PARISHAD Theme 1: pada-'sakti.h Theme 2: brahma.na.h upaadaana-kaara.natvam Theme 3: vya~njanaav.rtti.h __________________________________________________________________ As part of the conference, a number of special stalls have been constructed for Arts, Crafts & Book Exhibition on the open ground just a few yards down the conference venue. The participants are welcome to bring their own books for display at the conference venue. Special reception counters will be opened at the Bangalore Airport/City Railway Station/City Bus Stand, on the 3rd January to help the arriving scholars. Please note that the telephone numbers 3332759 and 3430017 are not working properly. You may use the new numbers 3434991, 3434992, 3434993 for any communication. The area code for Bangalore is 080 if you phone from within India and 80 from outside. We would appreciate if you could kindly fill in the CONFIRMATION form appended below to ensure that you do not run into difficulties on your arrival here. We wish you a HAPPY NEW YEAR and a pleasant trip to India and look forward to seeing you in Bangalore soon! Cordially yours, Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji Hon. President ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below is the Electronic Confirmation Form. Please fill in appropriately and do not edit any line ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xth WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE (3-9 January 1997) BANGALORE, INDIA _____________________________________________________________ CONFIRMATION FORM 1. Registration No.: _____________________________________________________________ 2. Name: 3. Country: 4. Participation: Check one [ x ] [ ] Yes, I am coming [ ] No, I am not able to come _____________________________________________________________ TRAVEL PLANS/HOTEL ACCOMODATION 5. Arrival (in Bangalore) Date/Day/Time: 6. Arrival Flight details: 7. Departure Date/Day/Time: 8. Departure Flight details: 9. Name of the hotel: _______________________________________________________________ 10. Any other information: _______________________________________________________________ Thank you  ______________________________ Secretariat Xth World Sanskrit Conference TARALABALU KENDRA 3rd Main, 2nd Block, RT Nagar BANGALORE - 560 032 Karnataka [ India ] Tel: +91-80-3434991, 3434992, 3434993 Fax: +91-80-3334541 E-mail: swamiji at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wsc-full.html ======================================================= From mrabe at artic.edu Mon Dec 23 10:53:46 1996 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 05:53:46 -0500 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027734.23782.5879020114228616016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:11:54 GMT, Narayan S. Raja wrote about river >dolphins, and their Proto-Indo-Cetacean homeland in the high Himalayas. >I think, we can go further back in the Cetacean prehistory and construe >a Proto-Indo-Sino-Cetacean homeland as there are river dolphins in the >Yangtze, too. > >Klaus Karttunen In the beginning, God created great fish From sani at ling.unipi.it Mon Dec 23 08:34:08 1996 From: sani at ling.unipi.it (sani at ling.unipi.it) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 09:34:08 +0100 Subject: FINAL CIRCULAR - Xth World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore Message-ID: <161227027728.23782.2617218805772543262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >CONFIRMATION FORM > > >1. Registration No.: >_____________________________________________________________ > >2. Name:Sani >3. Country:Italy >4. Participation: Check one [ x ] > >[ ] Yes, I am coming >[ X ] No, I am not able to come >_____________________________________________________________ >Thank you ============================================================================== Prof. Saverio Sani Dipartimento di Scienze Glotto-etnologiche Dipartimento di Linguistica Universita' di Genova Universita' di Pisa Via Balbi 4 Via S.Maria 36 16126 GENOVA 56126 PISA tel: 010*2099714; fax: 010*2095965 tel: 050*24773; fax: 050*44100 e-mail: sani at ling.unipi.it ============================================================================ == From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Dec 23 13:41:50 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 13:41:50 +0000 Subject: New Message (aryan invasion) Message-ID: <161227027730.23782.10982846113559067472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:15:26 GMT, Dominik Wujastyk commented rather appropriately the following message: > >On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > [...] and occasionally conversants take recourse to either writing >the word, making the gestures for writing the word (which can be >understood since they follow a stroke order), or reciting a well-known >phrase or line containing the word in question. All that might sound >inefficient, but it doesn't seem to slow the Chinese down. > To this I would like to add that in the 18th century European linguists often supposed that what they thought to be purely monosyllabic languages like Chinese and Tibetan (of which they mostly had a vague idea, indeed) were so poor in means of explaining things with words that the speakers commonly had to use writing (on sand or air) in order to make them understood to each other. Allowing that some peculiarities of Chinese can make this feasible, I hope that this idea is not coming back. After all, as a foreigner I have occasionally been forced to ask about the spelling of an English word. Klaus Karttunen From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Dec 23 14:18:50 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 14:18:50 +0000 Subject: Animal evidence (was Re: Indigenous Aryanism) Message-ID: <161227027732.23782.6800780697517411585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:11:54 GMT, Narayan S. Raja wrote about river dolphins, and their Proto-Indo-Cetacean homeland in the high Himalayas. I think, we can go further back in the Cetacean prehistory and construe a Proto-Indo-Sino-Cetacean homeland as there are river dolphins in the Yangtze, too. Klaus Karttunen From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Dec 23 15:06:43 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 15:06:43 +0000 Subject: New Message Message-ID: <161227027735.23782.7624320976462774872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:15:24 GMT, "Peter J. Claus" wrote: > >Can anyone suggest references (in English) on water in >Indian culture? I am particularly interested in >environmental concepts such as finding sources of water >(water dosing)... There is a full chapter about finding sources of water in the B.rhatsa.mhitaa of Varaahamihira. Klaus karttunen From KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi Mon Dec 23 15:29:55 1996 From: KJKARTTU at Elo.Helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 15:29:55 +0000 Subject: Animal evidence (elephant) Message-ID: <161227027737.23782.9493524024167007310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, after having seen through a great number of messages I do not anymore remember, who claimed an IE etymology for elephant. I know that a few such etymologies have been proposed, but what I have seen, seems rather unlikely. The Greek word elephas, elephant- has probably nothing to do with Sanskrit ibha-, but seems to go back to ancient Egyptian, where related words are attested very early. A further (and even IE) parallel is Hittite la_hpa. See Frisk, Griech. etymol. Woerterbuch and my India in early Greek Literature. This is probably the last time I check my e-mail (I have no connection in my home computer) before leaving to Bangalore. See you there. Season's Greetings. Klaus Karttunen From efb3 at columbia.edu Mon Dec 23 23:03:58 1996 From: efb3 at columbia.edu (Edwin F Bryant) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 18:03:58 -0500 Subject: Animal evidence (elephant) Message-ID: <161227027740.23782.15543038400628689037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gramkrelidze and Ivanov, in their magnum opus, propose *yebh or *Hebh, on the basis of Sanskrit and Latin, and *lebhonth or *leHbho on the basis of Greek and Hittite (443-444). They then propose the two variants may be derived from a single proto-IE form. Best, Edwin Bryant On Mon, 23 Dec 1996, Klaus Karttunen wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > after having seen through a great number of messages I do not anymore > remember, who claimed an IE etymology for elephant. I know that a few > such etymologies have been proposed, but what I have seen, seems rather > unlikely. The Greek word elephas, elephant- has probably nothing to do > with Sanskrit ibha-, but seems to go back to ancient Egyptian, where > related words are attested very early. A further (and even IE) parallel > is Hittite la_hpa. See Frisk, Griech. etymol. Woerterbuch and my India > in early Greek Literature. > This is probably the last time I check my e-mail (I have no connection > in my home computer) before leaving to Bangalore. See you there. > Season's Greetings. > > Klaus Karttunen > > > > > From thillaud at unice.fr Mon Dec 23 23:18:49 1996 From: thillaud at unice.fr (thillaud at unice.fr) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 00:18:49 +0100 Subject: many subjects Message-ID: <161227027742.23782.8396117385125983271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, for a long time I had many problems with the fucking computer of my university and I was unable to write any e-mail. (as a computer scientist, the f.. stem is frequently linked with machines!) ) about public works in Ramayana Many thanks to all who answer me! ) about the naked shoulder: In the Aranyakaparvan of the Mahabharata, after an idyllic description of Amaravati, the Indra's town, we have a long enumeration of the bad guys (instr. pl.) unable to see it, and among them (III, 44, 5c, Poona): naanaaplutaangais tiirtheSu perhaps in relation with your problem ? ) about maid made with flowers: In the fourth branch of the welsh Mabinogi, _Math son of Mathonwy_, the character of Lleu is under many curses, one of them beeing never to have a woman living on this earth. Math and Gwydon use magic to bypass this curse: (sorry, I dispose only of a french translation) ** Ils prirent alors des fleurs de che^ne [oak], de gene^t [broom] et de reines-des pre's [meadowssweet], et avec cela suscite`rent, par magie, la fille la plus belle et la plus parfaite du monde. On la baptisa selon le bapte^me qu'on pratiquait a` l' e'poque, et on l'appela Blodeuwedd [flower's aspect]. ** Unfortunately, this flower-maid is like common maiden: adulteress, she'll betray the poor Lleu and will organize his death. An other heroin, irish, acts similarly, the husband is Cu' Rof, the lover is Cu' Chulainn and the gentle accompliss of the murder is Bla'thnat [flower], but it is not said she's made with flowers. I have no referencies of this last story, but I think it easy to find. hoping to help you! ) about _out of india_ no one of the arguments I have read here, from the both parts, had nothing to do with a scientific knowledge of the reality. personnally, I think Vedic is an IE language and I don't believe Indoeuropean's original homeland is India, I think there are no little green martians, no more yetis or nessies, but I have not a bit of proof of that and if a respectable scholar says the contrary, I can't answer nothing else: _if you think it, perhaps you're not wrong_ and close politely but immediatly the discussion. two facts make many trouble in this question: 1) what exits still today, just that archeologists can find (and with luck). And the climate of India is not the same as Egypt's one. 2) autochthony is an old dream of many peoples to consider others as intruders, but just looking at the story of the humanity, it's a foolish dream. Neither Athenians, nor Gallics, nor Germans was autochthonous, and, probably, nor Dravidians! Thinking otherwise is just nazi-onalistic (sic). Bonne anne'e, Ein gutes neues Jahr, Felice capo d'anno, Hronia polla, Happy Newyear! -------------------------------------------------------------- Dominique Thillaud - Universite de Nice - Sophia Antipolis email : thillaud at unice.fr From zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in Mon Dec 23 19:37:28 1996 From: zydenbos at giasbg01.vsnl.net.in (Robert J. Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 00:37:28 +0500 Subject: Kuravanci Message-ID: <161227027739.23782.201706552428674244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, after a few long papers on Kuravanci Indira Peterson is finishing a book. I have also heard that Marina Muilwijk wrote a book with a title like "Kuravanci: the divine Kura tribe", published in Groningen. Robert Zydenbos From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Dec 24 20:00:49 1996 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 20:00:49 +0000 Subject: FINAL CIRCULAR - Xth World Sanskrit Conference, Bangalore Message-ID: <161227027744.23782.6881483170338244157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Swamiji, I have made the text of the Final Circular available on the INDOLOGY web site. Best wishes, and happy Christmas! Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, England FAX: 44 171 611 8545 From rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca Wed Dec 25 04:43:37 1996 From: rsoneji at mb.sympatico.ca (R. Soneji) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 22:43:37 -0600 Subject: Neelakesi Message-ID: <161227027745.23782.1905179194293876211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan wrote: > > Re: Neelakesi. > ************** > > Neelakesi is a rare, ancient Jaina epic available in Tamil. It refutes > KuntalakEci, a buddhist work. Unfortunately, Kuntalakeci is lost forever. > Only very few poems from Kuntalakeci exist, thanks to some old > commentaries on tamil classical literature. > > N. Ganesan > nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov > > ********************************************************************* > > A. Chakravarti > Neelakesi, 2nd edition, > Jaipur: Prakrit Bharati Academi, 1994. 320 p. > > ********************************************************************* > - Author: > - Nilakeci. > - Title: > Neelakesi, the original text and the commentary of Samaya- > Divakara-Vamana-Muni / Edited and published, by A. > Chakravarti. > > - Published: > - Kumbakonam, 1936. > > - Description: > - x, <1>, 339, iii, 484 p. 22 cm. > > - Subjects (use s=): > - > > Jaina poetry > > - Notes: > - > Cover title. > > In Tamil, introductory matter in English. > > Bibliography: p. <1>-iii (4th group). > > > - Summary: > - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work > "Kuntalakeci". > > - Other contributors: > - > > Samayadivakara-Vamana Muni. > > Chakravarti, A. ed. > > > ********************************************************************* > - Author: > - Cunantatevi, Cu., 1942- > Camanak kappiyankal : Nilakeci, Civaka Cintamani, Yacotara > kaviyam / Cu. Cunantatevi. > > - Published: > - Cennai : Vijayalatcumi Patippakam : Virpanai urimai, Payoniyar > Puk Carvicas, 1988. > > Epic literature, Tamil--History and criticism. > > Jaina literature, Tamil--History and criticism. > > Study of selected Jaina Tamil epics. > > ********************************************************************* > > Nilakeci / Camayativakaravamana Munivar uraiyutan. > - Published: > - Tancavur : Tamilp Palkalaik Kalakam, 1984. > - Description: > - 1 v. (various pagings) ; 22 cm. > > Jaina poetry, Tamil > > - Summary: > - Jaina extended narrative poem refuting the Buddhist work > "Kuntalakeci". > - Notes: > In Tamil; introd. in English. > > Edited by A. Chakravarti. > > Reprint. Originally published: Kumbakonam : A. Chakravarti, > 1936. > Chakravarti, A. (Appasami), 1880-1960. > ********************************************************************* > > - Title: > - > Nilakeci. > > - Edition: > - <1st ed.>. > > - Published: > - 1964. > > - Description: > - 75, 760 p. 22 cm. > > - Subjects (use s=): > - > Jainism--Relations > - Notes: > In Tamil. > - Other contributors: > Somasundaram, P. V. 1909- ed. > > ********************************************************************* From pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl Thu Dec 26 09:48:55 1996 From: pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl (Cezary Zemis) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 96 10:48:55 +0100 Subject: Q: _mantra's_ parts & _maalaa-mantra_ Message-ID: <161227027747.23782.1413606111015151760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, In the _mahaabhaarata_ XIII, the _anushasaana-parvan_, there is a _visshNu-naama-stotra_ (13.135). A footnote (in the critical edition, p. 705) to the 14th _shloka_ gives a few versions of a commentary on the _stotra_. The commentaries divide the whole _stotra_ and call it's parts eg.: _biija_, _shakti_, _kiilaka_, _astra_, _kavaca_, _mantra_ (D5), or use names of body parts. Another version of the commentary, not mentioned in the critical edition, also describes the _stotra_ as _maalaa-mantra_. And now the question: do you know which Sanskrit text tells about _mantra's_ parts, and defines the term _maalaa-mantra_? And the second question: is there an edition of Sanskrit text of _raamataapaniiya-upanisshada_? With regards, _ _ _ Cezary Zemis, mailto:pasiasty at orient.uw.edu.pl -+ / / / http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~pasiasty | / / / tel.:(+48 22) 443 054, GSM:0-601 227 486 | P A S I A S T Y Joliot-Curie 9/29, 02-646 Warszawa, Poland | / / / | /_ /_ /_ --- ----------------------------------------- --+ From pfreund at mum.edu Fri Dec 27 02:52:02 1996 From: pfreund at mum.edu (pfreund at mum.edu) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 96 20:52:02 -0600 Subject: Ramatapini upanishad Message-ID: <161227027750.23782.14703436617287056548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With regard to the request for the Sanskrit text of the rAmatApinyupani.sat, it is published in: The Vai.s.nava Upani.sad-s with the commentary of Sri Upani.sad Brahmayogin, edited by Pandit A. Mahadeva Sastri Published by the Adyar Library and Research Centre, Adyar, Madras 600020, India copyright 1979. First edition 1923. ISBN: 0-8356-7411-8 Sincerely yours, Peter Freund SU 152 Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, Iowa 52557 USA From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Fri Dec 27 10:16:10 1996 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 96 02:16:10 -0800 Subject: FYI: absence from Japan Message-ID: <161227027749.23782.918394817416725549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just to inform anybody who would want to contact me that I shall be absent, not only from my e-mail account, but also from Japan, until the beginning of March, first roaming around in Bangalore and then around Ahmedabad. Best wishes, -- -- Birgit Kellner Department of Indian Philosophy Hiroshima University From conlon at u.washington.edu Fri Dec 27 21:57:50 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 96 13:57:50 -0800 Subject: Query re: Address of Chief Epigraphist to Govt. of India Message-ID: <161227027752.23782.5554471432097181921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can an indology list colleague supply a postal (and if there is one, e-mail) address for the Chief Epigraphist to the Government of India at Mysore. Thanks in advance. Somehow I have a memory that the status of the Epigraphical Survey was altered, but I am unable to recall the details. thanks, Frank Conlon conlon at u.washington.edu From conlon at u.washington.edu Sat Dec 28 18:51:02 1996 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 96 10:51:02 -0800 Subject: H-ASIA: Q. Abortifacients in Kerala (fwd) Message-ID: <161227027754.23782.6670375890576702555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues--may I post this query on this list also on behalf of Professor Schiebinger? Replies could be to list or to Professor Schiebinger . Thank you Frank Conlon H-ASIA December 28, 1996 Query on abortifacients in Kerala *************************************************************************** From: Londa Schiebinger I am currently working on the history herbal abortifacients. One that interests me is the "settimandaram" (17th century: "tsjetti- mandaru") known in Malabar. Can a speaker of Malayalam kindly provide me with a literal translation of this term? It is something "peacock." Thank you. Also, if there are any books or articles on anti-fertility (or fertility) agents used in any part of India in the 17th or 18th centuries, I would be most grateful to know about them. Thank you. Londa Schiebinger Londa Schiebinger Professor of History of Science and Women's Studies Department of History Tel.: 814-863-7303 Pennsylvania State University Fax: 814-863-7840 University Park, PA 16802 E-Mail: LLS10 at psu.edu USA ------- Ed. note: Please reply directly to Professor Schiebinger. F.F.C. =========================================================================== From u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE Sat Dec 28 19:55:35 1996 From: u.niklas at Uni-Koeln.DE (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 96 20:55:35 +0100 Subject: Query: Address Message-ID: <161227027756.23782.11509088310454560313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the address (e-mail, postal, telephone, fax) of STEPHEN INGLIS ? Thank you and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to all. ULRIKE From dmenon at pacific.net.sg Mon Dec 30 02:29:09 1996 From: dmenon at pacific.net.sg (Das Menon) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 96 10:29:09 +0800 Subject: H-ASIA: Q. Abortifacients in Kerala (fwd) Message-ID: <161227027758.23782.11165723588285224861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that the correct word is "chethy-mandaaram". chethy (aka thechy) is ixora, a very common flowering plant in Kerala so is mandaaram. I of hand do not know the english name for it. Regards...Das >From: Londa Schiebinger > >I am currently working on the history herbal abortifacients. One >that interests me is the "settimandaram" (17th century: "tsjetti- >mandaru") known in Malabar. Can a speaker of Malayalam kindly provide me >with a literal translation of this term? It is something "peacock." >Thank you.