From apandey at u.washington.edu  Wed Nov  1 02:13:47 1995
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 18:13:47 -0800
Subject: E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021509.23782.4725159078300612414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Does anyone have the e-mail address of Peter Schreiner of die Abteilung 
fuer Indologie, or das Indologisches Seminar, in Zuerich, Switzerland? Or 
know if he has one?

Thanks.

Anshuman Pandey


 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov  1 03:19:32 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 22:19:32 -0500
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021510.23782.17786906557586193222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



There have been several attempts that I know of. But only trials, no 
sustained effort and certainly no complete translation. Ingalls was 
interetsed toget it translated and tried in his time, to no avail; the 
quality of the translation wasn't good enough. 

Motilal had a plan as well and sent me a trial tranlation of some 5 or 10 
hymns some years ago: again, the translation was not correct. He must 
have dropped the plan since.

Of course, I have thought about it was well. There is no one here who 
could do it well. Geldner's German is not easy, sometimes outright 
medieval. And I don't have the time myself. 

Should anyone of the esteemed readers have a proposal, please convey it to 
me. (Harvard Oriental Series, 53 Church Street Cambridge MA 02138, USA).
We have the copyright and I would seriously consider to print a good 
translation, preferably at a cheap rate (paperback).


It would be of *great importance* to get Geldner translated since it is 
the only adequate, in fact the only complete translation since Griffith (a 
hundred years ago), as O'Flaherty's translation of a tenth, 108 hymns, 
(in Penguin) is idiosyncratic and unreliable just like her Jaiminiya 
Brahmana or Manu (re-)translations, and as no complete translation is in 
sight, 

-- except for T.Elizarenkova's translation into Russian (which -- just like 
L. Renou's incomplete transl. into French seems to rely on Geldner-- I 
have checked hers only here and there, still). Her second vol. (RV 5-8) has 
just come out: 

Rigveda. Mandaly V-VIII, Moskva (Rossiiskaya Akademiya Nauk: Literaturnye 
pamyatniki) 1995,  pp. 743, incl. her comm. on the hymns (pp. 526-731), and 
two very useful studies: One on the world view of the Rgvedic Aryans, pp. 
452-486 by T. Eliz., and a study on the "realia" / Woerter 
und Sachen of the RV, pp. 487-525, by T. Eliz. and V. I. Toporov.

Printed in 2500 copies only (unlike the 40,000 of the first vol., in 
Soviet times!), so hurry up to buy it. Price unknown. Address:

Izdatelstvo "Nauka", 117864 GSP-7, Moskva V-485, Profsoyuznaya Ul. 90, 
Russia.



M. Witzel,  617- 496 8570. fax 496 9571.





On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> James A. Santucci, in his _An Outline of Vedic Literature_ (AAR, 1976),
> p. 3, says that Geldner's German translation of the RV is "being
> translated into English and will be appearing in print shortly".
> 
> What happened to this project?  Who was doing it?
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
>  
> 
 





From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de  Wed Nov  1 07:39:48 1995
From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 07:39:48 +0000
Subject: E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021512.23782.7898586135343522151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Date sent:      Wed,  1 Nov 1995 02:17:44 GMT
> Send reply to:  indology at liverpool.ac.uk
> From:           Anshuman Pandey <apandey at u.washington.edu>
> To:             Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject:        E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.

> 
> Does anyone have the e-mail address of Peter Schreiner of die Abteilung 
> fuer Indologie, or das Indologisches Seminar, in Zuerich, Switzerland? Or 
> know if he has one?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Anshuman Pandey


Since Peter Schreiner is a member of this list there would be other 
ways to find it out. Here it is, anyway:


                 pesch at indoger.unizh.ch




Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
37070 Goettingen
Germany
Phone: 0551/395283
 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Nov  1 14:16:16 1995
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 09:16:16 -0500
Subject: KAtantravyAkaraNa
Message-ID: <161227021518.23782.11730658462755755811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a book in Sanskrit by Janaki Prasad Dvivedi titled: 
Kaatantra-VyaakaraNa-VimarSaH, published from Banaras.  This book refers 
to a number of commentaries on Durga among many other works.  From what I 
remember, some of these were published from Calcutta in Bengali 
characters, and may be found in Calcutta libraries such as the Calcutta 
Sanskrit College, Asiatic Society, and the Central Reference Library.
	Madhav Deshpande

On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Raffaele Torella wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> does anybody know where I can find an edition of the sub-commentaries on
> DurgasiMha's vRtti on the KAtantravyAkaraNa ?
> 
> Best regards,
> Raffaele Torella.
> 
> Raffaele Torella,
> Dipartimento di Studi Orientali,
> Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza".
> 
> 
>  
> 
 





From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu  Wed Nov  1 14:31:03 1995
From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 09:31:03 -0500
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021519.23782.6568794422174723188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rather than just a translation of Geldner, a fresh translation, that
takes into account more recent work on etymology/word studies would be
nice. Surya Kanta's dictionary lacks bibliography and the new
Mayrhofer is not quite affordable (and apparently not as widely
available as it should be; no public university library in Ohio seems to
have it).

Or is this just a pipe dream?
-Nath

Nath Rao (natharao+ at osu.edu)		614-366-9341
 





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Wed Nov  1 15:42:33 1995
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 10:42:33 -0500
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021521.23782.13698010035795008234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof.Witzel writes:
>>as O'Flaherty's translation of a tenth, 108 hymns,   
>>(in Penguin) is idiosyncratic and unreliable just         
>>like her Jaiminiya Brahmana or Manu (re-)translations,

Could you please elaborate on this some more, even if
briefly... or point out a detailed, lengthier ;-)
critique of her work... 

Thanks,
-Srini.
 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Wed Nov  1 11:55:48 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 12:55:48 +0100
Subject: E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021514.23782.16929465650575007355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Does anyone have the e-mail address of Peter Schreiner of die Abteilung
>fuer Indologie, or das Indologisches Seminar, in Zuerich, Switzerland? Or
>know if he has one?

His email adress is:

 pesch at indoger.unizh.ch (Peter Schreiner)

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov  1 19:05:03 1995
From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 14:05:03 -0500
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021526.23782.15674688942688766719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> 
> I do not think it is a good idea to get Geldner translated into English. As
> far as I know, Stanley Insler has long been preparing a complete new
> English translation of the Rgveda. He is the man to do this translation.
> Stanley's problem, if I have understood him correctly, is to find time from
> other duties to complete this very important undertaking.
> 
> Asko Parpola
>

Any good translator into any language should take into account
all the previous translations, especially if they are good (and above all 
when the languages involved are German and English).  
I am sure that Insler, knowing also Italian (very well, BTW:)), will also 
read and consider the good Italian translation of some hymns of:

V. Papesso, Inni del Rg Veda, Roma, Astrolabio, 1979.

 





From apandey at u.washington.edu  Wed Nov  1 22:05:11 1995
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 14:05:11 -0800
Subject: Thank you: RE: Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021529.23782.17045579344334925661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Thanks to those who provided me with Peter Schreiner's address and I 
apologize for not pursuing other methods to obtain his address. Mr. 
Wujastyk, thank you for the reference to the command "review indology", I 
didn't know about it. I had only consulted the South Asia Gopher Directory.

Anshuman Pandey


 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Nov  1 14:53:14 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 14:53:14 +0000
Subject: E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021524.23782.12344847962468435216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anshuman Pandey said:
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the e-mail address of Peter Schreiner of die Abteilung 
> fuer Indologie, or das Indologisches Seminar, in Zuerich, Switzerland? Or 
> know if he has one?

Peter Schreiner (Zurich) = pesch at indoger.unizh.ch

It is often worth checking the INDOLOGY membership list for this sort of
query.  There are now about 450 members, and you can get a list of their
email addresses by sending the message "review indology" to the address
"listserv at liverpool.ac.uk".

Dominik



 





From Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI  Wed Nov  1 13:49:28 1995
From: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI (Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.FI)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 15:49:28 +0200
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021516.23782.13061041259483641024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>There have been several attempts that I know of. But only trials, no
>sustained effort and certainly no complete translation. Ingalls was
>interetsed toget it translated and tried in his time, to no avail; the
>quality of the translation wasn't good enough.
>
>Motilal had a plan as well and sent me a trial tranlation of some 5 or 10
>hymns some years ago: again, the translation was not correct. He must
>have dropped the plan since.
>
>Of course, I have thought about it was well. There is no one here who
>could do it well. Geldner's German is not easy, sometimes outright
>medieval. And I don't have the time myself.
>
>Should anyone of the esteemed readers have a proposal, please convey it to
>me. (Harvard Oriental Series, 53 Church Street Cambridge MA 02138, USA).
>We have the copyright and I would seriously consider to print a good
>translation, preferably at a cheap rate (paperback).
>
>
>It would be of *great importance* to get Geldner translated since it is
>the only adequate, in fact the only complete translation since Griffith (a
>hundred years ago), as O'Flaherty's translation of a tenth, 108 hymns,
>(in Penguin) is idiosyncratic and unreliable just like her Jaiminiya
>Brahmana or Manu (re-)translations, and as no complete translation is in
>sight,
>
>-- except for T.Elizarenkova's translation into Russian (which -- just like
>L. Renou's incomplete transl. into French seems to rely on Geldner-- I
>have checked hers only here and there, still). Her second vol. (RV 5-8) has
>just come out:
>
>Rigveda. Mandaly V-VIII, Moskva (Rossiiskaya Akademiya Nauk: Literaturnye
>pamyatniki) 1995,  pp. 743, incl. her comm. on the hymns (pp. 526-731), and
>two very useful studies: One on the world view of the Rgvedic Aryans, pp.
>452-486 by T. Eliz., and a study on the "realia" / Woerter
>und Sachen of the RV, pp. 487-525, by T. Eliz. and V. I. Toporov.
>
>Printed in 2500 copies only (unlike the 40,000 of the first vol., in
>Soviet times!), so hurry up to buy it. Price unknown. Address:
>
>Izdatelstvo "Nauka", 117864 GSP-7, Moskva V-485, Profsoyuznaya Ul. 90,
>Russia.
>
>
>
>M. Witzel,  617- 496 8570. fax 496 9571.
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
>> James A. Santucci, in his _An Outline of Vedic Literature_ (AAR, 1976),
>> p. 3, says that Geldner's German translation of the RV is "being
>> translated into English and will be appearing in print shortly".
>>
>> What happened to this project?  Who was doing it?
>>
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>>
>>
>>
>

I do not think it is a good idea to get Geldner translated into English. As
far as I know, Stanley Insler has long been preparing a complete new
English translation of the Rgveda. He is the man to do this translation.
Stanley's problem, if I have understood him correctly, is to find time from
other duties to complete this very important undertaking.

Asko Parpola

Asko Parpola ------ e-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi
Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki



 





From francois.voegeli at orient.unil.ch  Wed Nov  1 18:15:07 1995
From: francois.voegeli at orient.unil.ch (francois.voegeli at orient.unil.ch)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 18:15:07 +0000
Subject: E-mail Address of Peter Schreiner.
Message-ID: <161227021523.23782.1484115490329040638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        Dear colleage,
        The e-mail address of Peter Schreiner is the following

                pesch at indoger.unizh.ch
        Try to reach him there but I heard that he was on a 1 year academic
leave. Good luck.
        Francois Voegeli

>Does anyone have the e-mail address of Peter Schreiner of die Abteilung
>fuer Indologie, or das Indologisches Seminar, in Zuerich, Switzerland? Or
>know if he has one?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Anshuman Pandey
>
>
>

========
Bunei OTOKAWA (Universit\'{e} de Lausanne)


 





From bharat at scr.siemens.com  Wed Nov  1 20:22:38 1995
From: bharat at scr.siemens.com (bharat at scr.siemens.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 20:22:38 +0000
Subject: Meaning of the name "Kanishka"
Message-ID: <161227021659.23782.15592038762157700901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


If you happen to know the meaning of the name "Kanishka", could you
please send me email with the meaning? 

Thanks,

Bharat

-- 
R. Bharat Rao             E-mail:bharat at scr.siemens.com 
Learning Systems Department, Siemens Corporate Research, 
755 College Road, Princeton, NJ 08540 Ph:(609)734-6531 Fax:-6565
<Above opinions are exclusively the author's, and don't represent SCR>

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator: Ajay Shah Submissions: srh at rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu
Administrivia: srh-request at rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu 
Archives: http://rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu:8080/soc_hindu_home.html
------- end of forwarded message -------



 





From alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de  Wed Nov  1 19:58:24 1995
From: alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de (alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 20:58:24 +0100
Subject: Geldner's RV in English?-- no!
Message-ID: <161227021527.23782.2173616307715089576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Prof.Witzel writes:
>>>as O'Flaherty's translation of a tenth, 108 hymns,   
>>>(in Penguin) is idiosyncratic and unreliable just         
>>>like her Jaiminiya Brahmana or Manu (re-)translations,
>
>Could you please elaborate on this some more, even if
>briefly... or point out a detailed, lengthier ;-)
>critique of her work... 
>
yes, please I just start to read O'Flaherty's translation and I would not
like to waste my time ...

A.V.
______________________________________________________________
Alfredo Villarroel
Max-Planck-Institut fuer medizinische Forschung
Jahnstr. 29
D-69120 Heidelberg
e-mail alfredo at sunny.mpimf-Heidelberg.mpg.de
FaX: (06221) 486-459
______________________________________________________________

 





From magier at columbia.edu  Thu Nov  2 03:07:19 1995
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 22:07:19 -0500
Subject: Email address and Rotary/Richter Scholars
Message-ID: <161227021530.23782.18106274981730735744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Does anyone happen to know the email address of Michael Fisher and/or 
> Paula Richman at Oberlin College?

Again, people ought to check The International Directory of South Asia
Scholars (accessible freely from anywhere, via The South Asia Gopher),
before posting this kind of query to the whole group. Anyway, below
are the contact info portions of the entries for Fisher and Richman.
(The entries also include full descriptions of their work and research
interests, but I did not reproduce that portion here).

David Magier
South Asia Gopher

 =========================
| Michael Fisher (Oberlin College)
|
| submitted: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
|
| Michael H. Fisher
| Professor of South Asian History
| Oberlin College
| Oberlin, Ohio 44074  USA
|
| Phone: 216-775-8524
| Fax: 216-775-8124
| E-mail: ffisher at ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
 =========================
| Paula Richman (Oberlin College)
|
| submitted: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 11:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
|
| Paula Richman
| Department of Religion
| Oberlin College
| Oberlin, Ohio 44074  USA
|
| Phone: 216-775-8532
| Fax: 216-775-8124
| E-mail: ffisher at ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
 =========================




 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Nov  2 14:56:44 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 09:56:44 -0500
Subject: Geldner's RV in English? - YES!
Message-ID: <161227021532.23782.2076075267597187785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


RE:
The various messages from Asko, Enrica, Vidyanath Rao, Srinivasan Pichumani 
and Alfredo Villaroel:

1. Asko is correct. I am aware of Stanley's ongoing efforts (they were 
announced in 1981 by O'Flaherty.) But I also know (he told me a few weeks 
ago) that he is writing another book now, and I did not want to drag him 
into this discussion without his permission. Maybe he could come out of the 
lurking shadows and answer himself.


2. The point rather is: Geldner's  German transl. was finished in the 
Twenties. But due to the illness/neglect of the then editors and world 
war II it has been published only in 1951. (The proofs were available to 
a few German scholars until then). 

This has held up RV studies for 25 years, and since the translation is in 
German it has been largely neglected in the English speaking world 
(outside a very narrow band of Vedic specialists) even after its 
publication. The same holds good for Renou's French translation which is 
largely based on Geldner but is usually invoked just as an icon in 
English language articles and books -- with no discussion (again outside 
the same narrow band of *real* Vedic specialists).

3.We thus need a new complete *English* transl. -- as no *complete* one is 
available in another language and as a fresh one in Englsih is NOT in 
sight, we should translate GELDNER, -- if only for the simple reason that 
he spent a lifetime on the text (after editing the "sister text", the  
Avesta). He was the last one, perhaps, who penetrated so deeply into this 
text.

Certainly Stanley (with a similar background -- see his Gatha transl) 
will be able to do so as well, but until then...

4. Another reason is that we have to take all SERIOUS translation 
efforts in whatever language very seriously indeed. That means, not those 
retranslations of Geldner and Renou that have begun cropping up in some 
languages (sapienti sat), but those which try to make  serious progress 
(incl. Elizarenkova). 

There are, of course, transl. into other often less widely read languages. 
Enrica mentioned V. Papesso's Italian translation, and I did 
not mention Naoshiro Tsuji's transl. since it is beyond the range of most 
non-Japanese colleagues, and then, there are the translations into Croatian, 
various Indian languages etc. etc. -- all written from various backgrounds 
and with various aims in mind. A future translator will have to compare and 
sift.

5. Finally, Geldner has added copious notes which need to be taken into 
account by any future translator (together with Oldenberg's Noten).They 
are cryptic for those who do not read German well -- as I have seen 
myself in the various translation efforts.

6. For all these reasons: MY OFFER STANDS. If someone will produce a good 
translation of Geldner, WE WILL PRINT it.

-----


Regarding O'Flaherty's translation: I will give some examples when I get 
some time, maybe on Sunday.

If you want a well documented and  well balanced  English 
translation of some RV hymns get hold of Walter Maurer's PINNACLES.      
He has taken recent scholarship into account and has produced a readable 
and up-to-date translation with many annotations.


 Pinnacles of India's past : selections from the Rgveda /
                  translated and annotated by Walter H. Maurer.
 Amsterdam ; Philadelphia : Benjamins, 1986. xi, 350 p. ; 23 cm.
 SERIES: University of Pennsylvania studies on South Asia,, ISSN 0169 -0361

For readers of German I recommend Paul Thieme's translation of 23 hymns  in 
the RECLAM series (Gedichte aus dem Rig-Veda, Stuttgart 1964)  -- as 
always with many new ideas and re-interpretations.

MW


 





From JCARR at MCNEESE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 20:44:28 1995
From: JCARR at MCNEESE.EDU (Jonathan Carr)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 14:44:28 -0600
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227021539.23782.7479420248869154030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

      I am trying to locate MELFORD E. SPIRO who carried out field research
   in Burma in 1961. He is the author of at least two books on Buddhism
          1. Buddhism & Society 1970
          2. Burmese Supernaturalism 1978 Philadelphia, Inst for Buddhism
                                                        and Society
                 If you know his whereabouts and can put me in touch
                 I would be very grateful to hear from you.


                                                  Jonathan Carr
 





From athr at loc.gov  Thu Nov  2 21:59:01 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 16:59:01 -0500
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature in India
Message-ID: <161227021541.23782.6980874024237511657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The American College, Madurai has a very extensive collection of 
Anglo-Indian or Indo-Anglian literature, which is on a computer catalog 
which will be hooked up to internet in a few months.  Mr. Gnanaprahasam 
Reuben, a librarian at its Daniel Poor Memorial Library is on a Fulbright 
grant here at the Graduate School of Library and Information Science of 
Simmons College and was by the Library of Congress on a tour a couple of 
weeks ago. 

I called up Fulbright which seems to have a policy against giving out 
people's current addresses and his contact there said she would pass on 
to Mr. Reuben the fact that I was trying to contact for a researcher.

A quick search of the World of Learning and a couple of other reference 
books fails to turn up anything under American College Madurai or Madurai 
American College.  I'll wait to hear from Mr. Reuben before further 
pursuing the address in reference books.

Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov



On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Axel Michaels wrote:

> Dear fellow-indologists,
> could anybody of you let me know which universities in India 
> research on Anglo-Indian Literature is prominent? Some names and adresses 
> (possibly with e-mail connections) would suffice. Thanks in advance.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels
> Universit{t Bern
> Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft
> Lerchenweg 36
> CH-3000 Bern 9
> Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 





From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch  Thu Nov  2 18:01:18 1995
From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 19:01:18 +0100
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature in India
Message-ID: <161227021534.23782.471023295458355827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 01 Nov 95 21:39:51, 
indology at liverpool.ac.uk  <indology at liverpool.ac.uk> wrote:

>Return-Path: <indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk>
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Dear fellow-indologists,
could anybody of you let me know which universities in India 
research on Anglo-Indian Literature is prominent? Some names and adresses 
(possibly with e-mail connections) would suffice. Thanks in advance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels
Universit{t Bern
Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft
Lerchenweg 36
CH-3000 Bern 9
Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 





From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de  Thu Nov  2 18:56:48 1995
From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 19:56:48 +0100
Subject: Gotras and the Vedas.
Message-ID: <161227021536.23782.1613199576987536649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anshuman Pandey wrote: 
>In his Hindu Tribes and Castes (1872), M. A. Sherring provides a list 
>similar to the following in which he categorized gotra families under 
>specific Vedas. Is there much accuracy in this list?
>
>Samavedins    Yajurvedins    Rgvedins   Atharvavedins   The rest of the
>----------    -----------    --------   -------------   Brahmans, of all
>Kasyapa       Bharadvaja     Bhargava   Kaushika        gotras, follow
>Kaasyapa      Bhaaradvaja    Sankrita   Grtakaushika    the Vajurveda.
>Vatsa         Angiraah       Garga      Mudhgala
>Sandilya      Gautama        Bhrgu      Galawa
>Dhananjya     Upamanyu       Saunak     Vashisht


 My gOtra is kasyapa, but I am  Rgvedi. This is a counterinstance to the 
above classification.  
Dr. B. Narahari Rao
F.R. 5.1. Philosophie
Unversitaet des Saarlandes,
Postfach 15 11 50,
D-66041 Saarbr?cken

 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Fri Nov  3 04:22:47 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 23:22:47 -0500
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature
Message-ID: <161227021543.23782.2661221357997811252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


One of the earliest works on the subject (i.e., India in English/American
literatures) is that of E.F. Oaten's _Anglo-Indian Literature_ (London: 
K.Paul, Trench, 1908). This work was updated in Bhupal Singh's _A Survey
of Anglo-Indian Literature_ (London: Oxford Univ. Press, 1934) which was
author's doctoral dissertation at Oxford. 

As far as Indo-Anglian litrature is concerned (i.e., literary writings of 
Indians in English), pioneering work was done by K.R. Srinivasa Iyengar. 
See, for example, author's:
- Indo-Anglian literature (Bombay: PEN Books, 1943)
- Indian contribution to English literature (Bombay: Karnatak Publishing 
    House, 1945); and
- Indian Writing in English (Bombay: Asia Publishing House, 1945).

See also:

Dorothy Spencer's _Indian Fiction in English: an annotated Bibliography_
(Philadelphia: Univ. of Penn Press, 1960).

and

Sushil Jain's _Indian literature in English: a bibliography_ 1967.

These works have now been superceded by Singh's bibliography on the 
subject, published by Gale of Detroit.

 





From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu  Fri Nov  3 08:16:08 1995
From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 95 00:16:08 -0800
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature in India
Message-ID: <161227021538.23782.9965226253780408395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Central Institute for English and Foreign Languages in Hyderabad is a
good place, and I'm sure some work is done there on Indian literature in
English. I assume this is what you mean by Anglo-Indian lit, or perhaps you
are talking about literature by Britons in India (pre-1857), or by those of
mixed English and British parentage (post 1857)? The term Anglo-Indian
carries all these valences,

Best,


 





From swa6 at midway.uchicago.edu  Sat Nov  4 23:26:30 1995
From: swa6 at midway.uchicago.edu (David C. Swain)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 95 17:26:30 -0600
Subject: WORKSHOP:  The Uses of Visual Evidence
Message-ID: <161227021544.23782.17255825518839268278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 02:04 PM 9/26/95 BST, you wrote:
>I would very much appreciate it if you would share the following
>announcement with your colleagues:
>
>"The Uses of Visual Evidence in the Study of South Asia"
>a workshop sponsored by
>Independent Scholars of South Asia (ISOSA) and
>Triangle South Asia Consortium (?SAC)
>at North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC 27695-8101
>26-28 January 1996
>.......................
>
>Information.  Please contact:
>
........................
>
>Tony K. Stewart, Director
>Triangle South Asia Consortium
>Box 8101
>North Carolina State University
>Raleigh, NC 27695-8101
>phone 919/515-6335
>fax 919/515-7856
>e-mail <tony_stewart at ncsu.edu>.
>
>

Dear Prof. Stewart,

Please send me more information about the conference.

David C. Swain
swa6 at midway.uchicago.edu

 





From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch  Mon Nov  6 10:52:18 1995
From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 11:52:18 +0100
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature - Thanks for replys
Message-ID: <161227021546.23782.7554970134288594416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 02 Nov 95 23:05:51, 
indology at liverpool.ac.uk  <indology at liverpool.ac.uk> wrote:

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>Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 21:48:31 GMT
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>From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (Aditya Behl)
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Indian Literature in India
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
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Thanks to all, who replied to my question regarding Anglo-Indian 
Literature in India.
Axel M.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels
Universit{t Bern
Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft
Lerchenweg 36
CH-3000 Bern 9
Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 





From MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk  Mon Nov  6 15:40:11 1995
From: MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk (MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 15:40:11 +0000
Subject: Sans Eyes, Sans Teeth, Sans Crit.?
Message-ID: <161227021549.23782.9029178391502710109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sans Eyes, Sans Teeth, Sans Critic?

To seek the views of professional Sanskritists, on why Sanskrit is
important and why it is not more widely studied, is likely to produce
responses that still leave open the question why the rest of the world
seldom beats a path to their door.

As an amateur entranced by Indian history for the past few years, and one
feeling respect and  *gratitude*  for the earnest labours of translators
from Sanskrit, Tamil, Pali, Persian etc who have made possible my studies
in English and French, I can offer a few 'outsider' reasons why Sanskrit is
not more widely studied at least in western countries.

Perhaps the most obvious reason is that Sanskrit seems to have been
carefully preserved as a guild mystery for long centuries - until a few
nosey foreigners bribed or forced their way into it. By contrast, the study
of Latin, Greek, Arabic and Chinese, while hardly being promoted on every
street corner, were a good deal less hedged in than Sanskrit.

Furthermore, India took to the printing press very late - and again, only
under foreign stimulus, which was resisted for the first 200 years or so.
In non-specialised western university libraries there are usually no
Sanskrit materials at all; but if there are any, they tend to be old,
dusty, poorly printed, poorly bound, and deeply unappetising. (Maybe the
situation is not so bad in North America, where culture and money are not
perceived as necessarily antithetical).

So the field doesn't start from scratch - it has several historical
handicaps.

New fields of knowledge open up every day, competing for students who have
largely been trained towards breadth and flexibility, rather than depth and
fine focus. The new fields that hook them in take some trouble to present
themselves as sexy, empowering, futuristic and open-sided. There's usually
a fair amount of hokum in this, but it sells. The alternative, the rather
grim-faced, 'Old wisdom is here', 'Never mind the quality, feel the
antiquity', 'This is for the truly dedicated' sort of approach will
certainly hook some fish, but hardly has mass appeal.

Maybe Indian scholars were wise in trying to preserve their mysteries as
long as possible - and the tradition is continued, in the hearty contempt
or faint praise of True Sanskritists for translations by their colleagues
into various languages. Perhaps nothing will cheapen the ancient texts more
than to have amateurs  (like myself, and of course the great majority of
educated Indians who also haven't learnt Sanskrit)  thumbing through modern
translations and imagining (in all our ignorance) that we have learnt
something...!  But these horses have already got out of the stable.
Translations are available of a vast array of documents, and one can get
some impression of ancient and medieval South Asian history from them in
modern languages.

To study Sanskrit to the point where one could seriously _argue_ with an
existing translation (having first spent several years acquiring contacts
and influence in order to get permission to collate the necessary variety
of manuscripts in dusty libraries scattered up and down the subcontinent,
then further years meditating in the foothills of the Himalayas in order to
develop a correct mental attitude) seems likely to take half a lifetime,
with little apparent relevance to anything else. There appears to be little
payoff from the input, compared with other fields where one might put in
several years of hard work. The modern skills and tools concern information
retrieval - not fiddling about with raw data that would obviously lend
itself to being sorted out by tireless and painstaking computers.

Eventually, computer-assisted translation will catch up, (e.g. in about 30
years' time at the present rate of progress), producing accurately in three
weeks what would have taken some noble, toiling, pre-electronic individual
30 years. But Indology gives the impression of a field that is desperately
slow to get its electronic act together. I understand that a year ago, some
lengthy, fatuous bickering in the Indology list was  (temporarily)
obliterated by the gratuitous release of one of the epic transliterated
texts, courtesy of a Japanese team. That's encouraging. The very existence
of this Indology list is evidence that the field is not already in terminal
decline. But the field's image continues to be hand-written and jurassic.

I got into (translated) Indology for some intrinsically interesting
historical and conceptual stuff, and it has been worthwhile running around
a fair amount to get hold of it (there are no Indological or South Asian
studies here at Birmingham) -  but the fact is that one has to wade through
masses of turgid, repetitive drivel to get to the nuggets, in translation.

Is any True Sanskritist willing to swear on a holy text that all the
repetitive drivel is actually fascinating if only one reads the original?
I've studied Greek, Latin and a little Hebrew and Russian literature in
originals, and there is indeed  *some*  colour and feeling to be gained by
having studying literature in those languages, compared with reading
translations. But frankly, there's not a  *lot*  more colour in it; and the
sense and feel of literature is much reduced if one spends a lot of time
comparing lexicons.  For anyone pressed for time  (i.e. the entire
population of the modern world) and for whom the Sanskrit texts do not
constitute the holy books of their religion,  there are perhaps more useful
things to study.

(But - I repeat - with *gratitude* to those who do go for it).

M.Miles








 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Tue Nov  7 02:47:30 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 21:47:30 -0500
Subject: Anglo-Indian Literature - Thanks for replys
Message-ID: <161227021551.23782.16318588570952700770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Another source to check for Indo-Anglian (Indian English) is

The Cambridge History of the English Language (Vol. 5).

This volume, edited by Robert Burchfield, deals with 'English in Britain 
and Overseas: Origins and Development' (as its sub-title would indicate).
See particularly the section by Braj Kachru on "South Asian English" 
which contains an excellent bibliography (vide John Honey, prof. of 
English, Osaka International University, Japan, reviewing in _The Times 
Higher_, April 14, 1995, p. 23).

 





From giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it  Mon Nov  6 22:45:55 1995
From: giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it (giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 22:45:55 +0000
Subject: Indology in Portugal
Message-ID: <161227021548.23782.6800063358610433484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Query: does anyone know anything about indological studies in Portugal
(i.e. who to contact for purposes of graduate research, and - if possible -
what kind of
research is being conducted there?
All the best,

Alex Passi
giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it



 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 05:58:17 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 00:58:17 -0500
Subject: W.D.O'Flaherty's Rgveda
Message-ID: <161227021557.23782.421313487534280782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





Since I had been put on the spot, I had promised some examples from

W. Doniger O'FLAHERTY's TRANSLATIONS:


To be (relatively) quick: one section each from the Rgveda, Jaiminiya 
Brahmana and Manu in this and the next 2 messages:

       
1. The Rig Veda. An anthology, Penguin 1981



RV 10.95 (O'Flaherty p.253):

VS.1. O's rendering of even the first two paadas is more of a paraphrase 
than a translation:

Haye' jaa'ye ma'nasaa ti'STha ghore
va'caaMsi mizraa' kRNavaavahai nu' 

"My wife turn your heart and mind to me. Stay here, dangerous woman, and 
let us exchange words." 
  
This is rather a stream of unconnected George-Bush-like anacoluths, five 
sentences in the first line, which reflect the state of mind of Pururavas 
(love-sick, wandering around stammering, as ZB says). -- O. missed this 
altogether. (Of course, the discussion of this hymn by K. Hoffmann, 
Der Injunktiv im Veda, Wiesbaden 1967, p. 199 might have helped.) 

Thus:
"Hey! Wife! Sensibly -- Stand still! Terrible one! -- let us now exchange 
words!"

(haye seems to be the more polite version of: hai, usually addressed to 
female demons, in AV etc. -- In the RV, Hoffmann thinks, haye means 
something like "oh, poor me", German: ach) 


VS 5. raa'ja me viira tanv`as ta'd aasiiH

O.: "you were my man, king of my body".
The Vedic accent  (viira, no accent, is vocative) has not been 
recognized. 

Thus:
"Then, o man, you were lord of my body."
(Geldner and Hoffmann correctly)


12. ca'kran naa'zru vartayad vijaana'n 

O.: "He will shed tears, sobbing, when he learns"
 
There  is no sobbing here, and  cakran na (usual Vedic sandhi) is, at 
best, zleSa (krand "cry"/cakra "wheel")-- but transl.?; and vartayad is 
Injunctive Present (Hoffm. p. 205). Thus:

"(the new born son), he lets roll (down) the tear like a wheel, when he 
discerns."

(The same in Vs 13: no sobbing!)

VS15. maa' pra' papto ... na' va'i stra'iNaani sakhyaa'ni santi.

O: "do not vanish... There are no friendships with women."


In 14 and 15 pra pat refers to killing oneself by jumping down (a cliff), 
= suicide. Cf. S'B 11.5.8.1 (Hoffm. p. 207 n. 193). *That* is how the 
wolves would find him...

O. denies the possibility of male/female friendship -- perhaps a current 
local cultural bias -- but certainly not a Rgvedic one. For:
Sakhya- is completely misunderstood, as is usual in such cases with 
Indologists not very conversant with Vedic; it is understood on the basis 
of Epic/Classical sakhi "friend" and thus the whole point of the apparent 
saying is missed.
A Vedic sakhi is not just any friend (and a woman could be that!) but a 
socius, the -- by necessity -- MALE member of a sodality such a the 
vraatya "brotherhood" (therefore Hoffmann: "Gefolgschaftstreue"; on 
Vraatyas see now H. Falk, Bruderschaft, Freiburg 1986). There simply 
*are* no female sakhya-. The (common) women of the vraatyas live with 
them for a while just like Urvazii...

---  etc. etc. In this hymn (of 18 stanzas) alone I have counted 43 
instances which are wrong or where others would easily disagree.

In short:  UNRELIABLE and idiosyncratic.






 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:02:27 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 01:02:27 -0500
Subject: W.D.O'Flaherty's Jaiminiya Brahmana
Message-ID: <161227021553.23782.9553946897664822566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Since I had been put on the spot, etc.: here is NO. 2:


2. Jaiminiya Brahmana

(W.D. O'Flaherty, Tales of Sex and Violence. Folklore, Sacrifice, and 
Danger in the Jaiminiya Brahmana. U. of Chicago Press 1985)

There are many points I would take issue with in this book (starting from 
the title and the time limit she gives to JB, 900 BC, without any 
justification, etc. etc., -- for the moment, see H. Bodewitz, in his 
introd. to vol. II of his JB translation). 

And of course, the translation, again is a *re*-translation, for all of 
O.'s selections had been translated by Hans Oertel  and Willem Caland 
into English/German long before; see her own bibliography. O. merely 
added a fashionable(?) Freudian coating.

I select for commentary: "The rejuvenation of Cyavana"  (JB 3.120-29), O. 
p. 64 sqq.; 

The trouble again is that O. did  not follow up the secondary literature 
well, not even with the help of the students she mentions.

* if, -- she would have noticed that the  19th century "western scorn for 
the brahmanas" has long been overcome, see K. Hoffmann, Aufsaetze zur 
Indo-Iranistik,vol. III, ed. S Glauch et al., Wiesbaden 1992, p. 709,  -- 
a 1959 piece, following up Oldenberg and St. Schayer -- and Hoffmann's 
school at Erlangen, among which my lamented friend, A.Benke, MA thesis 
Erlangen 1976, and M. Witzel:  On Magical Thought in the Veda. Leiden: 
Universitaire Pers, 1979 (where the literature is given; incidentally, all 
provided by the editor to B.K. Smith for his article in Indo-Iranian 
Journal: "The unity of ritual: The place of the domestic sacrifice in 
Vedic ritualism", IIJ 29,(1986) 79-96, and only partially used in 
his book "Reflections on resemblance, ritual, and religion." New 
York-Oxford 1989.-- which again lambasts our predecessors without making 
clear that their attitudes had long been overcome.) 

* And,  -- if the sec. lit. had been used  -- the translation would have 
turned out much better.

In JB 3.120 sqq. (p. 64 sqq.) there are several cases where this would 
have helped:  p. 64 (JB 3.120): O's "the thrice returning departure" 
versus W. Rau, MSS 39, p. 159, 161 n. 1 tells us that this is part of the 
trekking procedure of the Vedic Indo-Aryans: Two days travel, one day 
rest (yoga-kSema). Thus: 3 times a period of double marching days 
(trih punahprayaaNam). -- NB. see already his book: Staat und 
Gesellschaft im alten Indien nach den Brahmana-Texten dargestellt, 
Wiesbaden  1957, again largely unread west of the Atlantic...).

Further, the graama, which treks with wild west style wagons,  is not a 
"clan" as O. translates repeatedly but a group of people under a 
graamanii "trek leader": including brahmins, ksatriyas, vaisyas and others 
-- for example the dumb carpenter of O. p.107, JB 2.272). 

The old Cyavana (3.120, p. 65) is not "on his last legs" but a niSThaava, 
a "spitter" due to loss of front teeth, see again W. Rau, MSS 39, 160-161

I also leave aside her predilection for street language colloquialisms 
"balls of cowshit, balls of shit" (or: the balls of Indra) or: hanta 
"hell!" (p. 65, 3.121), normal meaning: "let's do (something)" --  all 
all cases where Vedic slang is not seen in the Sanskrit but the standard 
expressions, and I also leave aside the many gaps in the translations 
where words or whole sentences have been forgotten  (e.g.: p. 64 As he was 
left behind :vaastau;  p. 64 His sons have left him: nuunam; etc . etc. -- 
the last section, JB 3.125, only receives a short paraphrase, not a 
translation -- but O. does not tell us). 

I rather move to more serious grammatical business: O. does not know the 
function of the "future" imperative in -taad (Delbrueck, Altindische 
Syntax, 1888 (!) p. 263 sqq.  Thus in par. 123-124, where a serious of 
commands is given, they should be tranlated by: do this, AND THEN do 
that -- the normal meaning of -taad in the Veda.

O. always calls the members of Zaaryaata's wagon train (graama) 
"Zaryaati", misunderstanding the 'first-year Sanskrit' Vrddhi formation  in 
the text which has zaaryaatya- .

Difficult sentences, such as: saa yadiitiiyaayayaditi (p. 65, 3.121 end) 
are simply left out without telling us so.

And p. 66  (JB 3.124) abibhede (MSS: abhibede/Talavakara Brahmana 
parallel: abhipede!!) is not (with Caland) "she could tell them apart" 
(from bhid???) but a typical JB mistake for *abhipede "she touched him by 
the arm, baahau)", see K. Hoffmann, MSS 23 (1968!), p., 41-43 = Aufsaetze 
p. 504-5.



Simple question: if *that* much is wrong in just one story (and this is a 
small selection only!) -- what about the rest of this book and her other 
translations?

Facit: It might have been better to have used the old translations and to 
have added her Freudian interpretation to them...

In sum: The "translation" simply is UNREALIABLE.






 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:04:42 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 01:04:42 -0500
Subject: W. Doniger's Manu
Message-ID: <161227021559.23782.14386195441950332938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>





Since I have been put on the spot, etc. : here is translation no.3:



3. The Laws of Manu (Wendy Doniger, with B.K. Smith) Penguin  1991.

Leaving aside the introduction which stresses the novelty of the 
translation ... and various well-known problems encountered in 
translation, which, in my opinion at least, have not been solved 
admirably (cf. the forthc. volume on Translations from Indian languages, 
HOS, based on the 1994 conference at Harvard, organized by E. Garzilli), 

I give just one example which shows both wrong (rather, lack of) 
philological method and lack of simple common sense.

Manu 8.134-135, on weights:

O. : 8.134:
"Six (white) 'mustard seeds' equal one medium-sized 'barley-corn', and 
three 'barley-corns' make one 'berry'; five 'berries' make a 'bean', 
sixteen 'beans' a 'gold-piece'. 135. Four 'gold-pieces' equal a 'straw'....

footnote:  The 'straw' (pala) thus weighed about 1.33 ounces or 37.76 
grams ....  might be measurements of gold, silver or copper.     <<of 
course, tola, etc. and ratti, see note 134, still are in use!>>
   
-- First logic or common sense: Take 3x5x16x4 (960) barley corns and 
weigh them... and see whether they eqyal any blade of straw. Even if you 
believe, with Herodotos, in gold digging ants and other wonders in India, 
I haven't seen Indian (rice/barley) straw of that weight.

-- But we forget simple philology,
the hand-maiden of any translation that is supposedly better than 
Buehler's  in Victorian English and the recent partial one by Derrett, 
etc. :

The last straw is : If you check pala in the Petersburg 
dictionary (PW) , or even in its copy, Monier Williams' dict., you see 
that pala 'straw' is attested only with some lexicographer, who turns out 
to be Hemacandra (according to the PW, in his AbhidhaanacintaamaNi 
1182), that is, and theword apparently is attested only once).

If you check the surrounding words, you find palaala in Manu, Mbh. 
(and Atharvaveda: palaalii) which mean 'straw'; and palada' (AV) of 
similar meaning.  It is clear that Hemacandra got his truncated  (hapax!) 
word pala from from the well known word for RstrawS  palaala/ii / palaada' 
(cf.TURNER 7958) -- while pala (Turner 7952!) always meant 'a certain 
weight/measure' and also 'meat'.--  
Mayrhofer suggests an Indo-European (see: palaava "chaff,grass"), and a 
Dravidian (Tamil: pul etc.) etymology.

Common sense apart, to establish pala 'straw', D. should at least have 
searched in texts of similar nature and time level before accepting the 
meaning of 'straw' in Manu.

--  And a little less hype would also do: "a landmark translation, the 
first authoritative translation in this century" (cover); "to offer to 
more specialized scholars new interpretations of many difficult verses." 
(p. lxi)   ---  I doubt it.

NB: the translation is based on 2 apparently  uncritical editions with 
7-9 commentaries (not available at Harvard). While commentators occasionally 
provide some variant readings found at their time and in their location, 
we do not know, of course, how these variants are represented in the 
*UN*critical editions: their very form may be influenced by the choice of 
the editor... see this Summer's (unfinished) discussion on criticla 
editions. I have seen such procedures  with Kashmiri misreadings in a text 
edited in N. India). 
In the present case, of course, we have the 19th century style half-way 
critical edition with many variaant readings by J. Jolly, representing the 
Vulgate, and not Bharuci's earlier text. But these two have *not* been 
used as the base text.

Also, D. does not take real issue with BharuciUs variants. This 
is the only OLDER  commentary we have; incidentally, at the instance 
where I once had to check Bharuci against the oldest Manu MS ( written 
under Govindracandra of Kanauj,c.1150 AD), the MS already followed the 
Vulgate and not Bharuci. Good reason thus to take Bh. seriously -- and 
his text is easily available, even in translation.

In view of all of this, I wonder indeed whether D's translation would 
have been accepted in the Harvard Oriental Series rather than in Penguin 
(p. lxviii). 

Finally, note that all 3  translations are RE-translations. Mistakes 
of the type mentioned above could easily have been avoided if the work of 
our 19th century predecessors (and contemporaries!) had been consulted more 
carefully -- instead of following the current fashion of lambasting them for 
various / supposed prejudices/attitudes of their times (what about 
<<end-of->> 20th century attitudes? The critics have 5 years to go before 
they are in for equally severe criticism of their 20th century 
prejudices/attitudes!) 

Last point: Looking at the various new translations that have appeared in 
the past decade or so: 

Why always to RE-translate something done *several* times over already 
--- and why not to take up one of the zillion UN-translated Skt. texts?


Much more difficult of course...






 





From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu  Tue Nov  7 06:21:18 1995
From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 01:21:18 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021554.23782.14665041573703367092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A student has asked me two questions:

1)     Are there any published descriptions of Kali-puja in Calcutta,
especially in recent times?  

2)	Are there any summer programs in Bengali, in the US or anywhere
including India?  How about Hindi / Urdu?

Thanks in advance!

Jonathan Silk
SIlk at wmich.edu
 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Nov  7 15:47:29 1995
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 10:47:29 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021564.23782.14569365055965300542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	This is a bibliographical question.  Does anyone know who edited 
the following volume:

	1934.  K.B. Pathak Commemoration Volume.  Pune:  BORI.

	Thanks.
			Madhav Deshpande
 





From goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk  Tue Nov  7 13:46:10 1995
From: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk (goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 13:46:10 +0000
Subject: the particle kila
Message-ID: <161227021560.23782.4226149494765908873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anybody help me with the following question:
how often does the particle kila occur at the beginning of a sentence in
classical prose?  Speijer states that it is always enclitic and I noticed 
nothing about unusual word order in Emeneau's article on kila in the 
Indo-Iranian Journal.  The Petersburger Woerterbuch states that kila occurs
rarely in first place and gives two Belegstellen---one from the Raamaaya.na 
and one from a prose passage in the Pa~ncatantra (in an aged edition which I 
have not yet tracked down)---but I feel these have little probative value.

I believe there is another article on kila and other particles (?by van 
Daalen).  Does anybody happen to know where it was published?  Has anyone come
across other instances of kila appearing as the first word in a sentence?  I
would be most grateful for any help.

Dominic Goodall.
 





From dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu  Wed Nov  8 00:16:28 1995
From: dbrk at troi.cc.rochester.edu (Douglas R. Brooks)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 19:16:28 -0500
Subject: Prsni Rsi-s
Message-ID: <161227021566.23782.675320780608362623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know much (or anything)
about the sages known as the Prsni-s?
They are mentioned in a text I am reading,
but that is it: they are named.
Who are they? What did they do?
Are they responsible for anything in particular?
Basically, anything about them or a reference
to them would be deeply appreciated.

This mention, btw, appears in Laksmidhara's commentary
to Saundaryalahari, v.11 in a section clipped from
the Taittirya Aranyaka which he calls the Arunopanisad.

Thanks in advance.

Douglas Brooks
URochester
 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov  8 02:43:43 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 21:43:43 -0500
Subject: the particle kila
Message-ID: <161227021562.23782.12109188630717740062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>










K


L. van Daalen wrote about kila in IIJ 31 (1988), 111-137, with a lot of 
examples:

The particle kila/kira in sasnkrit, Prakrit and the Pali Jatakas.


Your example seems to be a rare one. 
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Nov  8 12:05:28 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 95 12:05:28 +0000
Subject: the particle kila
Message-ID: <161227021568.23782.7895811552131963702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk said:
> 
> Can anybody help me with the following question:
> how often does the particle kila occur at the beginning of a sentence in
> classical prose?

This question could be partially answered by a simple analysis of the
online texts of the Mahabharata, Ramayana, Arthasastra, Brihatsamhita,
and Buddhacarita.  All available from your local INDOLOGY shop.

Dominik


 





From magier at columbia.edu  Wed Nov  8 20:58:45 1995
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 95 15:58:45 -0500
Subject: searching for book...
Message-ID: <161227021569.23782.3009493012589829591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have any knowledge of the book listed below, and, in
particular, whether a copy fo same exists in North America? I found the
citation a number of years ago in a catalog of publications available
from Japan Publications, but when I tried to order it from them, it was
out of stock. Any help appreciated.  Thanks. 
David Magier
magier at columbia.edu

================
Catalogue of the Sanscrit manuscripts brought from Central Asia by Paul
   Pelliot, preserved in the Bibliotheque National. Edited by Taijun
   Inokuchi, in collaboration with Takashi Irisawa, et al.
   Kyoto, Japan : Ryukoku University, Institute of Buddhist Cultural
   Studies, 1989.
  490 p.
 





From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de  Thu Nov  9 08:31:16 1995
From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 08:31:16 +0000
Subject: Pathak commemoration vol.
Message-ID: <161227021571.23782.17015747589868081752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Date sent:      Wed,  8 Nov 1995 05:13:42 GMT
> Send reply to:  indology at liverpool.ac.uk
> From:           Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> To:             Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Subject:        Re: 2 inquiries

>     This is a bibliographical question.  Does anyone know who edited 
> the following volume:
> 
>     1934.  K.B. Pathak Commemoration Volume.  Pune:  BORI.
> 
>     Thanks.
>             Madhav Deshpande
>  



The catalogue of this library has the following information:

Commemorative essays presented to Kashinath Bapuji Pathak / S. K. 
Belvalkar [Ed.]. - Poona : Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, 
1934. - XXI, 488 S.
(Government Oriental Series. Class B ; 7)
enth. Personalbibliographie von Kashinath Bapuji Pathak (1850-1932)



Regards

Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
37070 Goettingen
Germany
Phone: 0551/395283








 





From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch  Thu Nov  9 12:17:49 1995
From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 13:17:49 +0100
Subject: the particle kila
Message-ID: <161227021574.23782.5399281029463271352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tues, 07 Nov 95 21:00:44, 
indology at liverpool.ac.uk  <indology at liverpool.ac.uk> wrote:

>Return-Path: <indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Tue,
>          07 Nov 1995 21:00:43 MET
>Message-ID: <0099909F.DC1A827B.27 at vax.ox.ac.uk>
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:03:43 GMT
>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk
>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk
>Precedence: bulk
>From: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk
>To: Members of the list <indology at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Subject: the particle kila
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>X-Comment: Indology mailing list

If I remember well, there exists a dissertation by Ingeborg Ickler on 
particles in the Upanishads in which a major part is on kila. However, due 
to a lack of proper library facilities I cannot verify it. Perhaps somebody 
else (Michael Witzel?) could check it?
Axel. M.


>
>Can anybody help me with the following question:
>how often does the particle kila occur at the beginning of a sentence in
>classical prose?  Speijer states that it is always enclitic and I noticed 
>nothing about unusual word order in Emeneau's article on kila in the 
>Indo-Iranian Journal.  The Petersburger Woerterbuch states that kila occurs
>rarely in first place and gives two Belegstellen---one from the Raamaaya.na 
>and one from a prose passage in the Pa~ncatantra (in an aged edition which I 
>have not yet tracked down)---but I feel these have little probative value.
>
>I believe there is another article on kila and other particles (?by van 
>Daalen).  Does anybody happen to know where it was published?  Has anyone come
>across other instances of kila appearing as the first word in a sentence?  I
>would be most grateful for any help.
>
>Dominic Goodall.
> 
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels
Universit{t Bern
Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft
Lerchenweg 36
CH-3000 Bern 9
Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Fri Nov 10 01:18:29 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 20:18:29 -0500
Subject: Annual Jain Lectures
Message-ID: <161227021576.23782.6103856473518650087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Having received several requests for further information about 
Annual Jain Memorial lectures at selected Ontario universities 
I am pleased to offer the following: 

The annual Jain lectures, endowed by a Jain family (who are
also the original donors/sponsors of the Jaina studies program at the
UofToronto), began at the University of Toronto in 1990. The inaugural
lecture was given by Dr. Padmanabh Jaini (University of California).
Since then there have been six lectures. Not all the delivered lectures
have been published. The two that have been published are marked
with *. To obtain copies of these lectures please contact: 

	Dr. N. K. Wagle,
	Director,
	Centre for South Asian Studies
	University of Toronto
	Toronto, Ont., M5S 1A1

List of Shri Roop Lal Jain Memorial Lectures (at UofToronto):

1. Jaini, Padmanabh (1990) "Ahimsa: a Jain way of personal discipline";
2. Granoff, Phyllis (1991) " Being in the minority: Medieval Jain 
	attitudes towards other religion";
*3. Zydenbos, Robert (1992) "The conccept of divinity in Jainism";
4. Quarnstrom, Olle (1993)
*5 Cort, John E. (1994) "Defining Jainism: Reform in the Jain tradition";
6. Soni, Jayandra (1995) "The Notion of Trustworthiness (aapta) in Jain
	philosophy" (to be delivered on Nov. 25).
-------------------------

II.

Re: Jaina Studies Program at UofToronto.
The instructor for this year's course (The Jain religious tradition) is Dr. 
Peter Masefield of Monash University (Australia). In years before the 
course has been offered by Dr. Joseph O'Connell (St. Michael's College), 
Robert Zydenbos (of the Netherlands), and Olle Quarnstrom (Univ. of Lund).

----------------------------------
III.

In addition to the endowments at the UofToronto the Jain family has also 
established an Annual Dr. Chander Mohan Jain Memorial Lecture at the 
University of Western Ontario (London). So far there have been two 
lectures. The last was one was:

Christopher Chapple, (1995) "Non-violence in Jainism and its impact on 
Asian Civilization".

For further information write to:

	The Dean of Theology,
	Huron College,
	University of Western Ontario,
	London, Ont., Canada
------------------------------------
IV. 
The Jain family has also negotiated with the University of Windsor for 
the establishment of an annual Jain lecture under the auspices of the 
Department of Religious Studies.

It is hoped that interest in Jainism and Jain studies will increase 
through such efforts.

<Sushil>



 





From 6500jwn at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu  Fri Nov 10 07:19:40 1995
From: 6500jwn at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (John Nemec)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 23:19:40 -0800
Subject: Mary Douglas at AAR '95 !
Message-ID: <161227021580.23782.5387860267996773269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Forwarded on behalf of Professor Barbara Holdrege; please repost to 
appropriate lists. . . .

-----
 
Dear Colleague:

The American Academy of Religion recently established a
Consultation in Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and
"Judaisms," which will convene its first session at the
Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Religion in
Philadelphia.  

The 1995 session will be held on Monday, November 20,
from 9:00am to 11:30am and will focus on the theme
"Purity, Hiercharchies, and Boundaries," with emphasis
on the ways in which conceptions of purity serve to
circumscribe the ethnic-cultural boundaries of Jewish and
South Asian traditions and to delineate the hierarchical
models operating within each community.  As indicated on
the enclosed schedule, the session will feature the
eminent anthropologist Mary Douglas as the keynote
speaker and will include papers and responses by
specialists in Judaica and South Asia, respectively.

We hope that you will be able to join us for the session. 
Please also invite any colleagues who you think might be
interested in the Consultation.  

We look forward to your participation in the Consultation
in the coming years.

Sincerely,



Barbara A. Holdrege
Co-Chair
Consultation in Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and
"Judaisms"





American Academy of Religion Consultation
COMPARATIVE STUDIES IN "HINDUISMS" AND "JUDAISMS"


The American Academy of Religion Consultation in
Comparative Studies in "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms" has
been established to bring together scholars of South Asia
and Judaica to engage in a series of sustained
reflections on topics within "Hinduisms" and "Judaisms,"
with the intention of developing alternative categories
and conceptual frameworks to the Christian-based
paradigms that have tended to dominate the academic study
of religion.

The politics of comparison has played a major role in the
academic study of religion, and comparative studies in
particular are replete with evaluative scales that
hierarchize traditions or specific aspects of traditions. 
Up until recently the comparative study of religion, and
the academic study of religion generally, has been
dominated by evaluative scales based on paradigms of
religious tradition that arose out of a specific and
discernible Christian context.  These paradigms have
emphasized a series of hierarchical dichotomies between
such categories as sacred and profane, belief and
practice, doctrine and law, individual and community,
universalism and particularism, and tradition and
modernity.  While perhaps appropriate for the study of
some religious traditions, such taxonomies become a
strait jacket when applied to others.  The Consultation
focuses on traditions--Hinduisms and Judaisms--that
construct other categories that bring to light different
sets of relationships, such as those between religion and
culture, ethnic identity and religious adherence,
observance and nonobservance, and purity and impurity. 
Such relationships are obscured by the application of the
prevailing models.  

While Christian paradigms give precedence to such
categories as belief, doctrine, and theology and
delineate notions of tradition-identity that are rooted
in the missionary character of Christian traditions,
Hinduisms and Judaisms provide alternative paradigms of
religious tradition, in which priority is given to issues
of practice, observance, and law, and notions of
tradition-identity are delineated primarily in terms of
ethnic and cultural categories that reflect the
predominantly nonmissionary character of these
traditions.  It could be argued that brahmanical
"Hinduism" and rabbinic "Judaism" in particular
constitute two species of the same genus of religious
tradition:  as elite textual communities that have
codified the norms of orthodoxy in the form of scriptural
canons; as ethnocultural systems concerned with issues
of family, ethnic and cultural integrity, blood lineages,
and the intergenerational transmission of traditions; and
as religions of orthopraxy characterized by hereditary
priesthoods and sacrificial traditions, comprehensive
legal systems, elaborate regulations concerning purity
and impurity, and dietary laws.  The purpose of the
Consultation is to challenge scholars of religion to
reconsider the Christian-based models that have tended
to dominate the study of religion and to reconfigure our
scholarly discourse to include alternative paradigms of
religious tradition arising out of case studies of
Hinduisms and Judaisms.


American Academy of Religion Consultation
COMPARATIVE STUDIES IN "HINDUISMS" AND "JUDAISMS"

Purity, Hierarchies, and Boundaries


Session A174 
Monday, November 20, 1995, 9:00am-11:30am--C-103B

                                           
Co-Chairs

Barbara A. Holdrege, University of California, Santa
Barbara

Nathan Katz, Florida International University


Papers

Mary Douglas, Avalon Foundation Professor in the
Humanities Emerita, England
"Fig Leaves and Other Coverings in the Bible"

Robert Goldenberg, State University of New York at Stony
Brook
"Purity and Boundaries in Ancient Judaism"

Bonna Devora Haberman, Brandeis University
"Ritual Impurity in Mishnaic Tractate Kelim:  A Feminist
Textual Analysis"

*Gloria Raheja, University of Minnesota
"Problematizing `Purity':  Contending Hierarchies in
North India"

Christopher Chapple, Loyola Marymount University
"Purity, Vows, and Boundaries in Jaina Traditions"


Respondents

Richard H. Davis, Yale University

Paul Morris, Victoria University of Wellington, New
Zealand



*  Gloria Raheja may not be able to join us for the
session due to scheduling problems.

                   



 





From tony_stewart at ncsu.edu  Fri Nov 10 13:29:43 1995
From: tony_stewart at ncsu.edu (tony_stewart at ncsu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 08:29:43 -0500
Subject: announcement of new journal
Message-ID: <161227021588.23782.3638422995121275830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to alert you to a new journal that is being published in Dhaka
that looks to me to be pretty serious and worth collecting.  The journal is
_cArukalA_; all the articles are in Bengali, and the subject is art
history, with special emphasis on 20th century South Asia, especially
Bengal.  Bangladesh has a thriving art community and this journal
represents many of the very best scholars and artists.  The format is
definitely scholarly.  Subscription rates are Bangladeshi taka 30 per issue
(about a dollar).  It is quarterly and average length of issue is about 90
pages (8vo). Illustrations are black and white, but plans are for color
(covers, however, are 4 color).

The first issues (vol. 1, no. 1) is dated February 1994.  I have seen four
issues so far.  The editor of the journal is an important art historian,
Abdul Motin Sarkar, CWNB 12, Street 15, Gulshan, Dhaka 1212.  He can also
be reached through the Institute of Fine Arts, Dhaka University, Dhaka
1000.

I would very much appreciate it if you would circulate this to the
appropriate listserv and net groups.



 





From garzilli at shore.net  Fri Nov 10 15:42:28 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:42:28 -0500
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021584.23782.7438022864102098529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> 
> Categories of writing
> It seems to me that the translations of Prof. Wendy Doniger / O'Flaherty
> (henceforth WDO) that Prof. Michael Witzel (henceforth MW) has critiqued
> have nevertheless performed a vital function in bringing a knowledge of
> Sanskrit literature to thousands of people who would otherwise not have
> had this opportunity. 

1) If you buy a Sanskrit book, even a Penguin one, you buy it because you 
want to buy that book -- that is to say, somehow you already know it (at 
least you have heard the term "sanskrit" and "Veda" etc.). It is true that 
Penguin books are cheap; it is also true that they are not such wonderful editions, in 
fact, worthy of being put in a library *unread*. 

2) If you translate e.g *matrona* (lat.) with *flower*, well, it is 
simply wrong.
You can debate whether *matrona* can be translated with Roman married woman, 
Roman/Latin wife, honest woman, fat woman, nasty woman (the term means all 
this, and much more, depending on the context, the histor. period, etc).

* I think Witzel's review showed us that too many passages in OF 
translations are simply wrong -- others, perhaps, debatable.*
And I think he also said -- or at least I understood that -- that in 
such a collective effort one would expect something better, *especially* 
considering that the path of those translations has been already traced -- 
and what a kind of path!

3) Witzel' review was offered here, in this highly academic mailing 
list. I read many times that this mailing list is meant only for 
specialists therefore, Witzel wrote to and for specialists (or to somebody 
who tries to become a specialist, or a specialist-like). Witzel was asked by 
specialists whether it was worthy to buy one of the OF's translations.
He discouraged specialists (=in colleges, Universities, etc.), not the 
"normal" English contemporary reader... Who, alas!, probably does not even
know the existence of this mailing list.

On my side, several years ago I read OF Asceticism and Eroticism 
etc., and (even though the topic was not new, despite the title) I found it 
useful, and readable and pleasant. 

I think Dominik is partly right.
With intriguing titles and cheap and wide-spread editions, with a lively 
personality and a good promotion, one can do for this kind of culture 
much more than any serious scientific boring learned pundit can do, 
in terms of pubblicity  (of course, even though is mainly *pro domo sua*!:)).
If this lasts, in terms of time and in therm of values, longer than the 
work of a pundit, we (or better our descendants) will see about this.
However, a publishing house publishes according to the need of the public, 
and not vice versa. Penguin does not want to teach or disseminate any 
good verb or make people know any exotic culture, nor it wants to offer 
specialists any treasure in contents and quality: it 
wants to make money. In this respect, OF is lucky and brave to publish 
there, that's it. She or anybody else is read because of the good 
titles, the trendy graphics, the notoriety of the Publishing House, the 
Series, the capillary distribution, the excellent promotion, the cheap 
price of the books, the new topic -- new for a commercial publisher -- etc.  
I do not think it is due to the quality of her translations (good or bad 
might they be), it is due to the commercial policy of Penguin.


Dott. Enrica Garzilli
Harvard Law School
 





From fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp  Fri Nov 10 02:09:06 1995
From: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Masato Fujii)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 11:09:06 +0900
Subject: the particle kila
Message-ID: <161227021578.23782.17246182555381873817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For the particle kila, see
I. Ickler, "Die vedische Partikel kila," Zeitschrift f"ur vergleichende 
Sprachforschung (KZ) 90 (1977), pp. 50-86.
Leendert A. van Daalen, "The Particle kila/kira in Sanskrit, Prakrit and the 
Pali Jatakas," Indo-Iranian Journal 31 (1988), pp. 111-137.  
 



>>Can anybody help me with the following question:
>>how often does the particle kila occur at the beginning of a sentence in
>>classical prose?  Speijer states that it is always enclitic and I noticed 
>>nothing about unusual word order in Emeneau's article on kila in the 
>>Indo-Iranian Journal.  The Petersburger Woerterbuch states that kila occurs
>>rarely in first place and gives two Belegstellen---one from the Raamaaya.na 
>>and one from a prose passage in the Pa~ncatantra (in an aged edition which I 
>>have not yet tracked down)---but I feel these have little probative value.
>>
>>I believe there is another article on kila and other particles (?by van 
>>Daalen).  Does anybody happen to know where it was published?  Has anyone 
come
>>across other instances of kila appearing as the first word in a sentence?  I
>>would be most grateful for any help.
>>
>>Dominic Goodall.






Masato FUJII
======================================================
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
E-mail: fujii at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp
Phone: +81-75-753-6949
Fax: +81-75-753-6903 
======================================================
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Fri Nov 10 12:24:15 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 12:24:15 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021581.23782.8968193892188383458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Categories of writing
It seems to me that the translations of Prof. Wendy Doniger / O'Flaherty
(henceforth WDO) that Prof. Michael Witzel (henceforth MW) has critiqued
have nevertheless performed a vital function in bringing a knowledge of
Sanskrit literature to thousands of people who would otherwise not have
had this opportunity. The errors in her translations that MW has pointed
out do not seem to me to mean that her RV, Manu, and JB publications
were not worth doing, or that we and others do not benefit from buying
and reading them.  There is -- and should be -- a difference between
scholarly translations and popular ones.  Of course it is a pity if a
popular translation is not always as accurate as it might be, but it is
essential to see this as a matter of degree.  Take the "pala / palaala"
example.  Readers of the translation will indeed be misled by the word
"straw", and may become mildly puzzled if they go so far as to do the
sums in their heads as MW suggests.  But the central fact that some sort
of weight is being discussed will not escape the reader and, after all,
that is the main point.  Someone doing a research paper on Indian
weights could be expected to go beyond a single Penguin Classic for
their information. In the RV cases cited by MW too, to my mind WDO's
representations of the sense of the passages -- while less correct than
they might be -- successfully achieve the aim of making the overall
meaning of texts in question available to a general English reader, and
distinguishing the Sanskrit texts from, say, Beowulf, The Epic of
Gilgamesh, or the Cloud of Unknowing.

The errors in WDO's JB translation sound more serious, and since the
book does seem to try to aim higher in academic terms, perhaps it is
the more culpable.

I think it is unfair to say of WDO's Manu that,
 > In view of all of this, I wonder indeed whether D's translation would
 > have been accepted in the Harvard Oriental Series rather than in Penguin
 > (p. lxviii).
when the very point WDO makes on p.lxviii is that her work is in Penguin
and not in the HOS, which latter is aimed at a quite different audience.

Sometimes the aims of producing good English and accurate translation
are incompatible (even when not irreducibly opposed, these aims are
usually at odds to some greater or lesser degree).  In such cases, the
popular translation is obliged by his or her audience to choose the
"good English" path; the historian and scholar is obliged by a different
audience to choose the "accuracy" path.  It is *very* hard to write
good, enjoyable, clear English.  In my view, while WDO's English prose
is occasionally pedestrian, more often it is excellent.  And compared to
most earlier translations of the same Sanskrit texts, her use of English
language is a huge step forward.  In the kinds of books under
discussion, aimed at mass audiences of non-specialists, this is a vital
achievement.

It is also a reasonable justification for retranslating materials that
have already been put into European languages.  As MW points out, there
are thousands of fascinating untranslated Sanskrit texts.  But if the
pre-translated texts of major Sanskrit classics are not reaching a wide
English audience because they are not good enough English for a general
reader, then I think it is justifiable to retranslate them.  The
argument can be reduced to a financial one: if a publisher thinks it can
make a profit selling a new translation, that's a reason for doing it.
Bound up in that simple financial fact is a whole nexus of factors to do
with readership, desire, interest, quality, availability, copyright on
earlier translations, and so forth.

The argument about critical editions is also worth thinking about in a
more general context.  I am the first to argue for the vital importance
of critical editions.  But if, as MW says, even a Manu manuscript from
c. AD 1150 shows a post-Bharuci vulgate text, then we know that we are
dealing with a tradition of the text which is about a thousand years
old. That is already worth knowing about, and worth having in English.
The Ur-Manu, if recoverable, will be of great interest for historians,
but I think there is an argument that the text which everyone in India
has actually been *using* for the last millennium is just as
interesting.  Of course, an examination of the manuscripts of the
"vulgate" may show that there are many important variants even in this
text, in which case the text translated by WDO only has the
recommendation that it was the one more-or-less agreed upon by several
commentators.  This approach, however, does need to be made explicit.
The translator needs to say "I am translating a vulgate from the end of
the first millennium AD; if you want Ur-Manu you will have to wait a few
decades for the Penguin reissue, and perhaps forever".

When judging a book, we *have* to take into account what the author was
trying to do.  Why criticise an author's book for failing to achieve
what the author never intended in the first place?  If WDO had claimed
to be providing new scholarship on the basic Sanskrit texts, and if she
then failed to do so, it would be open season.  Admittedly, the jacket
blurb on her Manu promises that "scholars" will find something new in
the book, but we don't know if she actually wrote that. Jacket blurb is
not really a fair target for the reviewer.  But WDO takes great pains to
point out in her introduction that her translation is not aimed at
indologists, but at the general English-language reader of Penguin
Classics.  Given that as the aim, I think the errors in her translations
-- though possibly serious in some cases -- are outweighed by the
accessibility of her prose and the wide availability of the books, and
the volume of material that has been made available.  WDO is also very
explicit about her debt to previous translators; in her RV she lists at
the back of the book each translation she has looked at for every hymn.

[continued ...]



 





From magier at columbia.edu  Fri Nov 10 20:30:55 1995
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 15:30:55 -0500
Subject: [tony_stewart@ncsu.edu (Tony K. Stewart): Re: announcement of new         journal]
Message-ID: <161227021586.23782.944456947221026097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following New Journal Announcement is being forwarded to your
mailing list at the request of Prof. Tony Stewart, North Carolina
State University. If you have any comments or follow-up queries,
please contact him directly at tony_stewart at ncsu.edu

Thank you.  David Magier

==========================





From eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu  Sat Nov 11 01:56:49 1995
From: eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (edeltraud harzer clear)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 20:56:49 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021590.23782.7449325825566954555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A good source for summer language programs is the South 
Asia gopher. There is a Bengali intensive course in summer
at the University of Washington. I am not sure though 
whether it takes place every year. 

Good luck.
Edeltraud Harzer Clear.
 





From mbbednar at students.wisc.edu  Sat Nov 11 23:50:55 1995
From: mbbednar at students.wisc.edu (mbbednar at students.wisc.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 95 17:50:55 -0600
Subject: Madala Panji
Message-ID: <161227021595.23782.3771150019461941564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Members of Indology,

I am a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin and am in desparate
need for an English translation of the Madala Panji.  Unfotunately, I have
been unable to find any translations.  If anyone could provide assistance
or a citation, I would be very grateful.

Sincerly,

Michael Bednar


 





From yoshio at osak.ac.jp  Sat Nov 11 09:05:30 1995
From: yoshio at osak.ac.jp (yoshio at osak.ac.jp)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 95 18:05:30 +0900
Subject: AOIS Approved News Release:  World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA         Magazine Subscriptions delivered to *any* country (1,500+ USA titles         to choose from) + FREE 1 yr. subscription (choose from 295+ titles)
Message-ID: <161227021592.23782.12860366858059240347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

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From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu  Mon Nov 13 01:48:49 1995
From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 17:48:49 -0800
Subject: Radhakrishnan and intuition.
Message-ID: <161227021602.23782.4140831651457927868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Try:

Rambachan, Anantanand.  The Limits of Scripture: Vivekananda's 
Reinterpretation of the Vedas.  Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1994.

LN

---------------------------
Lance Nelson
Religious Studies    
University of San Diego
lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu
---------------------------


 





From hpbhatta at email.unc.edu  Mon Nov 13 00:33:23 1995
From: hpbhatta at email.unc.edu (Harihar Bhattarai)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 19:33:23 -0500
Subject: Radhakrishnan and intuition.
Message-ID: <161227021597.23782.2830790954157120500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Could you help me to locate the work of Radhakrishnan where he
discusses the use of intuition to discover the truth.
	Your assistance would be a great help.
	Sincerely,
	Harihar P. Bhattarai 
 





From NSALMOND at arus.ubishops.ca  Mon Nov 13 01:28:01 1995
From: NSALMOND at arus.ubishops.ca (Noel Salmond)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 20:28:01 -0500
Subject: Oppenheimer and Gita
Message-ID: <161227021598.23782.10051701725142500786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In his translation of the Bhagavad Gita, Winthrop Sargeant adds a note 
to Gita 11:12 to the effect that the American nuclear physicist Robert 
Oppenheimer recalled this verse on witnessing the explosion of the 
first atomic bomb.
Can someone corroborate this story. Somehow in the 
back of my mind I recall hearing that Oppenheimer quoted another verse 
on this occasion, which one? How would Oppenheimer have been familiar 
with Gita in the first place?

With thanks

Noel Salmond
Bishop's University
nsalmond at arus.ubishops.ca
 





From mitra at aecom.yu.edu  Mon Nov 13 01:42:02 1995
From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 20:42:02 -0500
Subject: Oppenheimer and Gita
Message-ID: <161227021600.23782.13980581459770163121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Oppenheimer indeed taught himself Sanskrit and read the Bhagavat Gita fairly
extensively. There is a NOVA program (in the PBS TV in the US) where  he  is
shown quoting in english, that he felt like a manifestation of death himself
when the first atomic explosion took place in the desert in New Mexico. -JM.
 





From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu  Mon Nov 13 04:39:55 1995
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 22:39:55 -0600
Subject: Oppenheimer and the Gita
Message-ID: <161227021604.23782.11317679329773996453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Strange as if may seem, this "Oppenheimer and the Gita" story is not just a
bit of urban folklore.  I lived in Los Alamos, New Mexico (a short period
of time spent in a dreadfully ugly little town located in the magnificently
beautiful Jemez Mountains).  It is well documented there and in other
places that as the bomb exploded, indeed, Oppenheimer quoted the Gita.  I
have only seen the quote in translation and so I am not sure which verses
he actually quoted as the flash from the first atomic device lit up the
morning sky like "the sun rising twice," but the one line that is
attributed to him is usually quoted as "I have become as time (or death),
the destroyer of worlds."  I don't know if that is  Gita X:29 or X:33 or as
mentioned, 11:12.  But, that is the story.

There is one interesting aside about the first atomic explosion.
Oppenheimer and his colleagues in Los Alamos were not sure if their
invention was going to work.  They had speculated three possible scenarios:
1)  It would work according to expectations.  2)  It would be a failure
and nothing would happen.  3)  The bomb would explode and the atomic
fission would set off a chain reaction that would cause the all the atoms
in the earth's atmosphere to ignite and thus destroy the world.  The
question then always arises:  "And they STILL DID IT?"

You asked: >How would Oppenheimer have been familiar with Gita in the first
place?

Oppenheimer was a very unusual individual.  He was Jewish at a time when
Jews were not treated very well in this country.  Later, during the
fifties, he was black-balled by the House on Un-American Activities.  He
lost his security clearance and also could not get a university teaching
job for quite a while due to his leftists leanings.  For a physicist, he
was well read in Indology and may have even known some Sanskrit!  I think
he later suffered a lot a guilt about his role in the development of
nuclear weapons and he and his brother may have started a peace museum of
some kind. . .  He died fairly young.



Yvette C. Rosser

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT
   TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT."  *  Justice Learned Hand
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 





From mail07464 at pop.net  Mon Nov 13 07:00:28 1995
From: mail07464 at pop.net (mail07464 at pop.net)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 23:00:28 -0800
Subject: Gold
Message-ID: <161227021606.23782.13053012629630787835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From Howard J. Resnick <hrid at aol.com>:

I am currently researching sloka 11.14.25 of the Bhagavat-purana which
compares the purification of the soul to the process of purifying gold by
fire. The Sanskrit (without sandhi) is:
yathaa agninaa hema malam jahaati
dhmaatam punah svam bhajate ca ruupam
"As gold, when smelted (blown) by fire, gives up impurity and again takes on
its own form"

I urgently need the following information and I will be extremely grateful
for any help:
1. In ancient India, how was "new" gold obtained, i.e. by mining, panning
etc?
2. Do we know the general quality of that mined/panned gold? Some newly
obtained gold is relatively a pure metal, other gold has to be purified by
various chemical and heating methods.
3. Do we know (this is especially important for me) to what extent and by
what method manufactured gold products/alloys were "re-refined" to again
extract the gold from a manufactured alloy or mixture?
4. Since the word punah appears in this sloka, the implication is that gold
was restored to its former purity.
   Kindly reply to me at:  <hrid at aol.com>
Thank you very much.
Howard J. Resnick
Dept of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
Harvard U.


 





From jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk  Mon Nov 13 09:42:28 1995
From: jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk (John Richards)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:42:28 +0000
Subject: Refining Gold
Message-ID: <161227021607.23782.7306149461125815773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I am currently researching sloka 11.14.25 of the Bhagavat-purana which
> compares the purification of the soul to the process of purifying gold by
> fire. The Sanskrit (without sandhi) is:
> yathaa agninaa hema malam jahaati
> dhmaatam punah svam bhajate ca ruupam
> "As gold, when smelted (blown) by fire, gives up impurity and again takes on
> its own form"
> 
> I urgently need the following information and I will be extremely grateful
> for any help:
> 1. In ancient India, how was "new" gold obtained, i.e. by mining, panning
> etc?

Howard,

I'm afraid I can't give you the information you require, but the
following contributory "evidence" may be of interest to you.

In the Buddhist Pali Canon, there is a discourse of the Buddha
(Anguttara Nikaya III.16) where he uses a similar analogy, saying that
there are 5 impurities in gold that make it no longer soft, workable,
and bright (pabhassara), but brittle, namely - iron (ayo), copper (loham),
tin (tipum), lead (siisam) and silver (sajjham).

Similarly, the 5 hindrances stop the mind (citta) from becoming soft and
workable, and resplendent.

By the way, isn't there something wrong with the first word of the
second line of your quotation?

-- 
John Richards
Stackpole Elidor (UK)
jhr at elidor.demon.co.uk

 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Nov 13 14:54:33 1995
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:54:33 -0500
Subject: Gold
Message-ID: <161227021611.23782.11638726355435872621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is a common practice in India to take old ornaments to a gold-smith to 
get new ones made out of the same mettle.  On such occasions, the 
goldsmiths go through this process of "purification" of the gold to 
remove impurities.  Secondly, the word "dhmaatam" is important.  One 
needs to go to an Indian goldsmith and see how they blow a flame on to 
the gold they are working with in order to shape and join little pieces.  
However, this is different from the process of purification where they 
place the gold in a container and heat it.  Of course these are modern 
practices I have seen in Pune.
	Madhav Deshpande

On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, B. Reusch wrote:

> >From Howard J. Resnick <hrid at aol.com>:
> 
> I am currently researching sloka 11.14.25 of the Bhagavat-purana which
> compares the purification of the soul to the process of purifying gold by
> fire. The Sanskrit (without sandhi) is:
> yathaa agninaa hema malam jahaati
> dhmaatam punah svam bhajate ca ruupam
> "As gold, when smelted (blown) by fire, gives up impurity and again takes on
> its own form"
> 
> I urgently need the following information and I will be extremely grateful
> for any help:
> 1. In ancient India, how was "new" gold obtained, i.e. by mining, panning
> etc?
> 2. Do we know the general quality of that mined/panned gold? Some newly
> obtained gold is relatively a pure metal, other gold has to be purified by
> various chemical and heating methods.
> 3. Do we know (this is especially important for me) to what extent and by
> what method manufactured gold products/alloys were "re-refined" to again
> extract the gold from a manufactured alloy or mixture?
> 4. Since the word punah appears in this sloka, the implication is that gold
> was restored to its former purity.
>    Kindly reply to me at:  <hrid at aol.com>
> Thank you very much.
> Howard J. Resnick
> Dept of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
> Harvard U.
> 
> 
>  
> 
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Mon Nov 13 11:31:51 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 11:31:51 +0000
Subject: Gold
Message-ID: <161227021609.23782.15585168831240805088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Kolar gold mines to the east of Bangalore are very old indeed, over
a thousand years, I'm told.

Dominik

 





From spb at ntrs.com  Mon Nov 13 20:02:48 1995
From: spb at ntrs.com (Steve Bonine)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 20:02:48 +0000
Subject: CFV: humanities.language.sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227021612.23782.12416300521335107974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
            unmoderated group humanities.language.sanskrit

Newsgroups line:
humanities.language.sanskrit	The Sanskrit language and related topics.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 4 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Shrisha Rao <Shrisha.Rao at launchpad.unc.edu>
Proponent: Henry Groover <HGroover at Qualitas.com>
Mentor:    Todd Michel McComb <mccomb at best.com>
Votetaker: Steve Bonine <spb at ntrs.com>

RATIONALE: humanities.language.sanskrit

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language of ancient origins, like Latin,
ancient Greek, and Persian. Unlike many other ancient languages, however,
it has had an unbroken tradition of both literary and everyday usage,
lasting right up to the present day.

A study of Sanskrit is very useful for those interested in understanding
Hinduism; it is also important to those who study Paninian linguistics,
Vedanta, Indology, the development of Indo-European languages and
cultures, etc. Besides all these, of course, Sanskrit has a vast body of
prose, poetry, drama, and music, of genuine literary worth, that is of
much interest to many scholars and amateurs.

There used to be a Sanskrit e-mail discussion group that generated a high
enough volume of messages to cause it to be shut down because of the
excessive load it was creating on its host system. The list had about 380
members who are potential readers of such a newsgroup; it may also be
safely assumed that there are others who were not on the list, but would
also like to see such a newsgroup come about.

CHARTER: humanities.language.sanskrit

The newsgroup humanities.language.sanskrit will be a forum devoted to the
discussion of all matters pertaining to the formal or informal study of
Sanskrit, both as a literary and scriptural language, and also as a
language for common use. The newsgroup will not be solely for those
already knowledgeable about Sanskrit, but will also give those interested
in it an opportunity to learn by interaction. While there will be no
restriction on the range of Sanskrit-related topics allowed, those that
have nothing to do either with Sanskrit itself, or with issues in the
study of Sanskrit, will be strongly discouraged.

END CHARTER.

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      voting at ntrs.com

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one and only one of the following vote statements for each group:

      I vote YES on humanities.language.sanskrit
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If you wish to change your vote, simply vote again from the same account;
duplicate votes are resolved in favor of the most recent vote.

THIS IS NOT A SECRET VOTE.  Names, addresses, and votes will be published in
a RESULTS article in the same newsgroups in which this CFV appears.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons
who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from disinterested
parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute this CFV.  If you must,
direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.
Distributing pre-marked or edited copies of this CFV is vote fraud. When in
doubt, ask the votetaker.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes must be
mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous, forwarded or proxy
votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW servers are considered to be
anonymous votes.

DISTRIBUTION:

In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to the mailing lists:

Sanskrit mailing list     sanskrit at cs.utah.edu
Indology mailing list     indology at liverpool.ac.uk
NLPAsia-L mailing list    nlpasia-l at nectec.or.th
Indo-European list        INDOEUROPEAN-L at cornell.edu
 





From us003785 at interramp.com  Tue Nov 14 10:30:00 1995
From: us003785 at interramp.com (Adolf von Wurttemberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 05:30:00 -0500
Subject: SOFTWARE KEYBORD FOR DEVANAGARI
Message-ID: <161227021616.23782.9507041040512830262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The best Windows-based Devanagari font set/wordprocessor I've ever used is
from Gamma Productions, 12625 High Bluff Dr., #218, San Diego, CA, 92130
USA. Telephone No.: 800-974-2662 The latest 32-bit version runs very fast
under Windows95. I teach Sanskrit and have used Devanagari computer-based
wordprocessors for almost 20 years. However, this is not shareware. Please
e-mail me if you have further questions.  

At 08:26 AM 11/14/95 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear colleagues,
>
>recently we have bought from the Ecological Linguistics their Devanagari 
>fonts for Windows that look very fine but unfortunately are supplied 
>without software keyboard (on our complaint E.L. explained that it is able 
>to supply softwarwe keyboards only for their Macintosh version). Before we 
>start devising our own - a pretty laborious task - we would like to know 
>whether this sort of thing does not already exist as a shareware. We shall 
>be grateful for any hint or advice.
>
> 
>
>_____________________________
>Jaroslav Strnad
>Oriental Institute
>Czech Academy of Sciences
>Pod vodarenskou vezi 4
>182 08 Praha 8
>CZECH REPUBLIC
>e-mail: strnad at orient.cas.cz
>______________________________
> 
>

 





From ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca  Tue Nov 14 13:44:58 1995
From: ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca (ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 08:44:58 -0500
Subject: SOFTWARE KEYBORD FOR DEVANAGARI
Message-ID: <161227021623.23782.1949290870419065229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jaroslav Strnad

	There is program called KEYMAN3.1 that is publically available from the
Summer Institute of Linguistics, Mexico which you can FTP and use to write 
your own keyboard driver under Windows 3.1 and 3.11 with a very little effort.
I wrote one for Telugu in 8 hours. This software has a built in Keyboard driver
writing editor which lets you test the keyboard as you develop it.  It is the
best utility I have first hand experience with that is available in Public
Domain, and it works. This can be FTP-ed from Internet, although I don't readily
have their internet address. If you have difficulty in finding this address by
tomorrow, I will find lookup the adress myself and let you know tomorrow.

Regards,
Desikachary.
 





From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Nov 14 14:13:03 1995
From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 09:13:03 -0500
Subject: gold again
Message-ID: <161227021622.23782.15290372512661586581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Ciao Howard! 
Abhinavagupta (TantrAloka XVI, 63-64) says 
that the animal which is superior to all is that which had six births 
namely that is offered in sacrifice and it has been reincarnated * again * 
for six times. The animal becomes pure like gold becomes pure by cooking it.
(Chapter XVI deals with initiation).

niveditaH punaHprAptadeho bhUyoniveditaH |
SaTkRtva itthaM yaH so'tra SaDjanmA paSurUttamaH ||
yatha yAkakramAcchuddhaM hema tadvatsa kIrtitaH |
.....

KSemarAja resorts to this example in his SpandasaMdoha (p. 22). He 
compares the paSu to the cattle which has 7 births.
Cooking is a way to purify gold and to separate it from impurities.

[According to Helene Brunner ("Un Tantra du Nord: le Netra Tantra", BEFEO, 
LXI, PAris 1974, p. 183 and fn. 2) Abhinavagupta used 
Chapter XX of the Netra Tantra for the TA passage on the animals' 
sacrifice. The Netra is later than the 2nd century AD (K. C. Pandey, 
Abhinavagupta, p. 573) See my translation of the SpandasaMdoha, 
Supplemento n. 59 agli Annali- vol. 4, (1989), fasc. 2, Naples 1989, p. 
33 and fn. 87].

Punar can refer to re-incarnation and offering.

Enrica Garzilli

 





From thrapp at helios.nosc.mil  Tue Nov 14 17:49:07 1995
From: thrapp at helios.nosc.mil (thrapp at helios.nosc.mil)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 09:49:07 -0800
Subject: Ganesha naamaavali
Message-ID: <161227021625.23782.15708394004126741962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

What is the original source for the 108 names of Ga.nesha?
There are considerable differences in two popular versions
of the naamaavali and I would like to find an authoritative
source.

Thanks for any information you can provide.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Gary R. Thrapp
thrapp at nosc.mil
 





From kalluri at dahlgren-19.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Nov 14 18:25:00 1995
From: kalluri at dahlgren-19.Eng.Sun.COM (kalluri at dahlgren-19.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:25:00 -0800
Subject: AOIS Approved News Release:  World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA
Message-ID: <161227021627.23782.9600512599329472170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Please do not send your crap to the Indology group!!
 





From strnad at site.cas.cz  Tue Nov 14 08:26:30 1995
From: strnad at site.cas.cz (Jaroslav Strnad)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:26:30 +0200
Subject: SOFTWARE KEYBORD FOR DEVANAGARI
Message-ID: <161227021614.23782.5215339388776448797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

recently we have bought from the Ecological Linguistics their Devanagari 
fonts for Windows that look very fine but unfortunately are supplied 
without software keyboard (on our complaint E.L. explained that it is able 
to supply softwarwe keyboards only for their Macintosh version). Before we 
start devising our own - a pretty laborious task - we would like to know 
whether this sort of thing does not already exist as a shareware. We shall 
be grateful for any hint or advice.

 

_____________________________
Jaroslav Strnad
Oriental Institute
Czech Academy of Sciences
Pod vodarenskou vezi 4
182 08 Praha 8
CZECH REPUBLIC
e-mail: strnad at orient.cas.cz
______________________________
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Tue Nov 14 11:31:48 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:31:48 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (2 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021617.23782.16396970960294048288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[sorry, this message was meant to go out at the same time as "1 of 2",
but a gremlin got it.  It suffered an error ....]

Error
Anybody who has published a book knows that it is virtually impossible
to be free from error.  I personally admire enormously the practice
of the famous Stanford computer scientist Donald Knuth, who offers money
(yes!  I have two cheques to prove it) to anyone who finds errors in his
books or computer programs.  What a reslient psyche one would need to take
this approach.  While we must all strive to be free from error, it is
also important to take a robust and realistic attitude towards error.
My first reaction to discovering a blunder in my work is to cringe and
hope to die.  But this isn't a sensible reaction.  In general, there is
a great deal to be learned from understanding the kinds of errors we
make, and why we make them.  In errors that I have discovered in my own
written work, for example, I find it interesting that many cases
exemplify exactly the same types of error made by scribes of medieval
manuscripts.  Haplography, dittography, saut du meme au meme, and so
forth.  Added to these are errors of "hardware", i.e., usually
explainable by reference to the typewriter keyboard, and sometimes to
the software being used.  Knowing this helps a great deal with
proofreading, and even more importantly, it helps one to commit such
errors less frequently in the future.  Then there are the more painful
errors of logic, understanding, and so forth.  Yet even errors of
understanding and knowledge, which are what Prof. Wizel is critiquing in
WDO's translations, are opportunities for learning about the nature of
error.  In the present case, for example, some of the corrections
suggested by MW were -- I thought -- very interesting.  But the central
message that comes out of his critique is that there is a great deal of
important secondary literature in German which we ignore to our cost. It
seems to me that this is a more worthwhile discovery, for those who
didn't know it already, than that WDO makes errors.

Going back to Knuth, he kept a ten-year record of the errors that he and
others discovered in one of the major computer programs he wrote (TeX),
and published an analysis of these in an article entitled "The Errors of
TeX" (_Software practice and experience_ 19 (1989), 607--685, and
reprinted in _Literate Programming_ (Stanford Univ., 1992)).  This
analysis has been of great importance to software authors and project
managers.

Just think how valuable it would be to have an analysis of this sort for
work in the field of indological translation and editing.


-- 

Dominik Wujastyk,
Wellcome Institute,
183 Euston Road,
London NW1 2BE.

FAX: +44 171 611 8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk

For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html

 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Tue Nov 14 12:49:11 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 13:49:11 +0100
Subject: German ....
Message-ID: <161227021619.23782.10933031774789558426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I refer to the recent postings by Witzel and Dominique, where it is implied
that we should be able to read Indological literature in more than one
language (English). I would like to second that! I was educated in a high
school system where the students got a reasonably good grip on German and
enough French to be able to cope later on. It has been an enormous help in
my studies. Both within the fields of Classics, comparative Indo-European
linguistics and Indology there is a huge and highly important research
literature in these two languages, and we cannot expect it to be translated
into English (who would pay for it?) Any person who has the brains to learn
Sanskrit can easily pick up enough French and German to be able to read
research papers and scholarly books. It is only a question of making a
small, concentrated effort. The world abounds in language courses for
German and French - there is really no excuse!

(And while you're at it: don't forget Italian, a must for Tibetologists!)

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca  Tue Nov 14 18:59:43 1995
From: ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca (ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 13:59:43 -0500
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021630.23782.3113879626946553283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, there is freeware postscript (and may be truetype also) available from
the archive located at Wahingotn State University located in Seattle in USA.
I have used postscript version of these fonts and they are very good. I even
defined a set of Macros to make typing of diacritical chars very easy using
these fonts. You can do the same using the Recorder application under Windows,
but if you want my macro file I can send it free.

regards,
K.Desikachary,
AECL, Canada,
(204)256-3439 (home)
(204)753-2311 ext 3062 (Work)
 





From asha_heera at sara.nl  Tue Nov 14 13:26:17 1995
From: asha_heera at sara.nl (asha heera)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:26:17 +0100
Subject: wanted pradeep's bhajans
Message-ID: <161227021620.23782.16544606158788628871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
I would like to have pradeep's bhajans
 
bye
asha from the Netherlands
 





From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu  Tue Nov 14 19:38:55 1995
From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:38:55 -0500
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021628.23782.2495391885164477993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are there any shareware Truetype fonts for diacritics that include
the requisite diacritics for transliterating Sanskrit?  
J. Hartzell
 





From csr at jupiter.wipro.com  Tue Nov 14 07:29:27 1995
From: csr at jupiter.wipro.com (csr at jupiter.wipro.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 15:29:27 +0800
Subject: Sanskrit Souvenir
Message-ID: <161227021631.23782.10676742911751078872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

priya mitraaNi,

Samskrita Bharathi, an organization with the mission of brining back Sanskrit
into daily life is conducting "Speak Sanskrit Classes" throughout USA during
Oct- Dec 95. On this occassion, we have brought out a Sanskrit souvenir -
"Samskrita Saurabham".

Total no. of pages = 40.
Contents

1.  Editorial
2.  Speak Sanskrit - A Gateway to rich heritage -- A report
3.  bhaashhaa - raashhTrajiivanena samavetaa -- H.V.Sheshadri
4.  puujaamaatraM na, priitiH api syaat.h -- Janardhan Hegde
5.  sudhA bhItA divaM gatA ! -- Kedar Naphde
6.  Sanskrit in Natural Language Processing - Why and How ? --
      Akshara Bharathi, IIT Kanpur
7.  baala modinii --  Stories for kids
8.  pada bandhaH -- Raghavendra Swamy
9.  Can we enjoy the great scriptures through translations? -- Sarasvati Mohan
10. Sanskrit Proverbs - Collection -- Vidhyanath Rao
11. Must it be stated again ? The importance of Sanskrit -- Ashok Aklujkar
12. Sanskrit Publication list - Pallava Prakashana

Apart from these, the souvenir has lot of useful information for Sanskrit
lovers. The souvenir has a beautiful color cover page too.

The souvenir is being distributed *FREE* of cost to ONLY to those who have
registered for "Speak Sanskrit Classes".

Those of you who are not able to attend the classes and want to get a copy
of the souvenir please send a requistion along with a cheque for
$5/- (Dollar Five Only) payable to IDRF. IDRF (India Development Relief Fund)
is a voluntary non-profit organization supporting social service activities in
India. They have sponsored the "Speak Sanskrit Classes" in USA.

Those outside United States, please send cheque for $6/- (Dollar Six Only).

Cheques should be mailed to --

                  Shivaram Bhat
                  20800, Homestead Road, #36H
                  Cupertino  CA - 95014

Write memo as "Sanskrit souvenir". The souvenir copy will be mailed to
your address.

dhanyavaadaH,

- Raghavendra.   csr at wipro.com
 





From pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu  Wed Nov 15 00:48:32 1995
From: pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu (pbilimor)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 16:48:32 -0800
Subject: Address
Message-ID: <161227021633.23782.17461691906726446516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Anyone has address or means of obtaining same for Elliot Stern in 
Philadephia (Penn)? 
Thanks in anticipation.

 





From apandey at u.washington.edu  Wed Nov 15 01:08:11 1995
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 17:08:11 -0800
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021635.23782.9574099065649945013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


On Tue, 14 Nov 1995 ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca wrote:

> Yes, there is freeware postscript (and may be truetype also) available from
> the archive located at Wahingotn State University located in Seattle in USA.
> I have used postscript version of these fonts and they are very good. I even
> defined a set of Macros to make typing of diacritical chars very easy using
> these fonts. You can do the same using the Recorder application under Windows,
> but if you want my macro file I can send it free.

The Blackbox archive site - blackbox.hacc.washington.edu - is no longer 
available. I am unsure whether it's archives are kept elsewhere or if 
they were even transfer as all. Additionally, it is the University of 
Washington which is located in Seattle, WA. The "other" is a cross-state 
rival.

Regarding the recent threads about Devanagari fonts, I might add that one 
very good program for creating and printing Devanagari texts is Avinash 
Chopde's ITRANS package. Text is entered in transliterated devanagari, 
and then processed into devanagari in Postscript format, and when used with 
Frans Velthuis's Devnag Metafont package, into DVI and TeX formats as 
well. The ITRANS package as well as the Devnag Metafont package is  
available via FTP at ftp://chandra.cis.brown.edu.

Anshuman Pandey
University of Washington


 





From KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu  Wed Nov 15 01:39:19 1995
From: KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu (KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 17:39:19 -0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227021637.23782.16413689974433471342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     Does anyone know if there is an e-mail address for the American
     Insititute of Indian Studies in Varanasi? I would appreciate it if 
     you would post it here or send a reply to Kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu.
     Thank you very much,
     Katherine Harper
     Loyola Marymount University
 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov 15 02:36:57 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:36:57 -0500
Subject: New issue of E. Journal of Vedic Studies
Message-ID: <161227021638.23782.15449477966406970429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  

ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES

                                                                   
Editor-in-chief    Michael Witzel     (Harvard University) 
                        
Managing Editor    Enrica Garzilli    (Harvard University) 
                                                                  
Editorial Board    Madhav Deshpande   (University of Michigan, Ann 
                                                                  Arbor)
                   Harry Falk         (Freie Universitaet Berlin)
                                                                     
                   Yasuke Ikari       (Kyoto University)
                    
                   Boris Oguibenine   (University of Strasbourg)
                                                                    
                   Asko Parpola       (University of Helsinki)

Technical Advisor  Ludo Magnoicavallo (Politecnico di Milano) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  The editors take pleasure in announcing the following. 

 
  After a fairly long Summer break, the journal is picking up speed again
  with several issues coming out now.   

  The first one (EJVS 1-3) is by P. Koskikallio (Finland), on the enigmatic 
  figure of Baka Daalbhya. It comes in three sections, as EJVS 1-3 a, b, c.
  The web version of the paper will be out soon.


  The next one in line is M. Witzel's short version (c. 30 pp.) of a long
  paper of pp. 160 on the origin of the Kuru state in early Vedic India.
  This version will contain the gist of the argument.


  Also soon to come is a paper by our co-editor Y. Ikari (Kyoto) on the rare
  school (zaakhaa) of the Vaadhuulas, a subschool of the Taittiriiyas of
  the Back Yajurveda. They survive, with a few clans only, in the state of
  Kerala. The paper will deal with his research among the Vaadhuulas and
  Also soon to come is a paper by our co-editor Y. Ikari (Kyoto) on the rare
  school (zaakhaa) of the Vaadhuulas, a subschool of the Taittiriiyas of
  the Back Yajurveda. They survive, with a few clans only, in the state of
  Kerala. The paper will deal with his research among the Vaadhuulas and
  his ongoing work on editing their texts.


  Individual issues can be requested from M. Witzel. 
  Subscription (free) and all mail should be addressed to:
      ejvs-list at shore.net, or to: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu
      or to the individual editors
    
      http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 
      http://www.arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ejvs
      




  SUMMARY of EJVS Vol. 1, issue 3
  -------------------------------

  P. KOSKIKALLIO 

  Baka Daalbhya:
  a complex character in Vedic ritual texts, epics and PuraaNas  

   This is the first part of a survey of the characters called Daalbhya
  concentrating on the portrayals of Baka Daalbhya and Kezin Daalbhya
  in Vedic sources. In addition, I shall take up some less known Vedic
  figures with the same patronymic. Especially the connections of
  Daalbhyas with Saamavedic practices and early ritualist groups, like
  vraatyas and sattrins, comes into the foreground here. My purpose is
  to follow up this paper later on with a second part that deals with
  the sage Baka Daalbhya in epic and PuraaNic literature. The second part
  will also discuss various post-Vedic heron (baka) figures and the asuras
  called Baka and Kezin. I would be grateful for any comments on the
  present version.



 





From ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca  Wed Nov 15 14:25:08 1995
From: ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca (ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:25:08 -0500
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021648.23782.9317023161668314272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ansuman Pandey,
	Thanks for correcting me re. the Washington FTP address for the Roman
Fonts that contain diacritical chars for internationally accepted
transliteration scheme of Sanskrit script. I had copied these fonts several 
months ago, and if these are not readily ftp-able from Internet, I can supply 
a copy of these on a diskette (as these were in public domain) along with 
the macro file that makes typing of diacritical chars that are located in the 
upper ascii portion of the font very easy. To get these one can send email to 
me, and enclose $4.00 to cover postage and handling, as I have no other means 
of sending these which is cheaper.

Regards,
Desikachary  
email:desikacharyk at wl.aecl.ca  
 





From conlon at u.washington.edu  Wed Nov 15 17:37:17 1995
From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:37:17 -0800
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021645.23782.5347467330859261404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With reference to query # 2,   the University of Washington South Asia 
Center offers summer instruction in first year Bengali and second year 
Hindi/Urdu.  The American Institute of Indian STudies also offers a 
summer Bengali instructional program. 

Frank Conlon

On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote:

> A student has asked me two questions:
> 
> 1)     Are there any published descriptions of Kali-puja in Calcutta,
> especially in recent times?  
> 
> 2)	Are there any summer programs in Bengali, in the US or anywhere
> including India?  How about Hindi / Urdu?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Jonathan Silk
> SIlk at wmich.edu
>  
> 
 





From magier at columbia.edu  Wed Nov 15 14:53:44 1995
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:53:44 -0500
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021643.23782.11494479033561289176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> On Tue, 14 Nov 1995 ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca wrote:
> 
> The Blackbox archive site - blackbox.hacc.washington.edu - is no longer 
> available. I am unsure whether it's archives are kept elsewhere or if 
> they were even transfer as all.

I believe most of the Blackbox files were transferred to the Indology
ftp archive...

David Magier
 





From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de  Wed Nov 15 10:44:50 1995
From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:44:50 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021640.23782.155662484203836791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On 10.11. Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> It seems to me that the translations of Prof. Wendy Doniger / O'Flaherty
> (henceforth WDO) that Prof. Michael Witzel (henceforth MW) has critiqued
> have nevertheless performed a vital function in bringing a knowledge of
> Sanskrit literature to thousands of people who would otherwise not have
> had this opportunity. The errors in her translations that MW has pointed
> out do not seem to me to mean that her RV, Manu, and JB publications
> were not worth doing, or that we and others do not benefit from buying
> and reading them.  There is -- and should be -- a difference between
> scholarly translations and popular ones.  Of course it is a pity if a
> popular translation is not always as accurate as it might be, but it is
> essential to see this as a matter of degree. 


Sorry, I don't get the point. It's not W. Doniger, it's the popularity
of Penguin that ensured the wide circulation of her Rigveda-
anthology. That probably would have been so, no matter who did it.
No bonus-points for that! Paul Thieme's Rigveda-anthology
mentioned by M. Witzel was also published in a series intended for
the general public (Reclam), and it can perhaps claim as much merit
in its field (German) as D. Wujastyk attributes to Doniger's. Still,
Thieme made no compromise on standards. Can we assume that
Doniger could have done better, if it hadn't been for Penguin??

  But do we really want to introduce double standards? Are mistakes
and distortions acceptable in publications intended for the general
public? How can we prevent students or - horror of horrors -
colleagues from reading these books and getting the "wrong" ideas,
too. Given the obvious scarcity of "up-to-date" Rigveda-translations 
in English, e.g., this is not as far-fetched as it may seem. 
Convenience prevails, especially in the "English-speaking
[part of the] world". And with so few people at all willing to take
notice of anything written in other languages (German is just one
example), who will be there to set things right afterwards?
   In a way, this brings us back to an aspect of our recent discussion
of textual criticism. Preparing a good translation is a time-
consuming affair, and it is not always considered very "original", 
unless you spice it with street-language, psycho-jargon or the 
"theory of the month". Not too many people would be prepared to spend 
a good part of their lives trying to penetrate just one text, as 
Geldner did. M. Witzel's appeal shows that it can already be a bit of 
a problem to find someone for a secondary translation of Geldner's 
magnum opus. And why should anybody bother as long as it seems so 
much more rewarding to have a quick shot at the Rigveda today and at 
Puranas or perhaps Homer tomorrow?


Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
37070 Goettingen
Germany
Phone: 0551/395283
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Nov 15 12:23:53 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 12:23:53 +0000
Subject: fonts
Message-ID: <161227021641.23782.6402128685583589058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anshuman Pandey said:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 14 Nov 1995 ORACLE at wl.aecl.ca wrote:
> 
> > Yes, there is freeware postscript (and may be truetype also) available from
> > the archive located at Wahingotn State University located in Seattle in USA.
> > I have used postscript version of these fonts and they are very good. I even
> > defined a set of Macros to make typing of diacritical chars very easy using
> > these fonts. You can do the same using the Recorder application under Windows,
> > but if you want my macro file I can send it free.
> 
> The Blackbox archive site - blackbox.hacc.washington.edu - is no longer 
> available. I am unsure whether it's archives are kept elsewhere or if 
> they were even transfer as all. Additionally, it is the University of 
> Washington which is located in Seattle, WA. The "other" is a cross-state 
> rival.
> 
> Regarding the recent threads about Devanagari fonts, I might add that one 
> very good program for creating and printing Devanagari texts is Avinash 
> Chopde's ITRANS package. Text is entered in transliterated devanagari, 
> and then processed into devanagari in Postscript format, and when used with 
> Frans Velthuis's Devnag Metafont package, into DVI and TeX formats as 
> well. The ITRANS package as well as the Devnag Metafont package is  
> available via FTP at ftp://chandra.cis.brown.edu.

The Washington fonts mentioned above are avaliable from the INDOLOGY
Supplementary Gopher.  See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indololgy.html

Dominik

 





From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu  Wed Nov 15 20:44:34 1995
From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:44:34 -0500
Subject: Address
Message-ID: <161227021646.23782.9893192754732203466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Anyone has address or means of obtaining same for Elliot Stern in
>Philadephia (Penn)?
>Thanks in anticipation.
>
> Elliot Stern, 552 South 48th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19143; telephone:
>(215) 747-6204.  Regards, George Cardona


 





From adsood at midway.uchicago.edu  Wed Nov 15 21:51:27 1995
From: adsood at midway.uchicago.edu (aditya dev sood)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:51:27 -0600
Subject: Summer Studies in India
Message-ID: <161227021650.23782.7498653299534188454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This is in response to a recent query concerning summer study programs in
India. Taxila Academy, a new program in Bangalore, India, which offers 
introductory courses in: 

Language Study
Epics and Mythology
Art and Architecture
Cinema and Society
Classical Music and Dance
Modern Indian Literature

It has been organized by students and professors at the University of 
Chicago, Oxford, Jawaharlal Nehru University and Delhi University.

If anyone is interested, I can provide more information.

Aditya.
 





From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com  Thu Nov 16 01:24:37 1995
From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 17:24:37 -0800
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021654.23782.13694480338036923977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With errors such as those pointed out by Dr. Witzel,
I as a non-specialist shudder to think of what kind
of erroneous notions such mistranslations propagate.

Considering that the Rg Veda is held as sacred 
by many Indians, it seems obvious that a translator 
should either use a traditional interpretation or a 
carefully researched, scholarly understanding of
the text.  Otherwise, the translation serves no use 
at all.

Mani
 





From hshah at ccmail.muller.com  Wed Nov 15 22:42:05 1995
From: hshah at ccmail.muller.com (hshah at ccmail.muller.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 17:42:05 -0500
Subject: wanted pradeep's bhajans
Message-ID: <161227021652.23782.4028937580539148314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     I am not sure if they are available in Netherlands. But they are 
     available in US. If you want more info., please let me know.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: wanted pradeep's bhajans
Author:  indology at liverpool.ac.uk at mullernet
Date:    11/15/95 05:28 PM


Hi,
I would like to have pradeep's bhajans
     
bye
asha from the Netherlands
     

 





From garzilli at shore.net  Thu Nov 16 01:42:58 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 20:42:58 -0500
Subject: FONTS in our FTP archive!
Message-ID: <161227021655.23782.2505346826099735075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Fonts such as the Washington Indic Times and other TrueTipe and Tipe1 fonts 
for Devanagari are available from our FTP server:
ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/
 
We have written Indexes of all the files in html format, so that you can 
browse through the contents of our FTP archives and download files with your 
www client.

Our site is connected to the Internet with two T1 lines: downloads are 
very fast.

You can read a Guide on how to connect to our FTP server and download 
files, and a Guide on how to redefine your keyboard for Devanagari fonts 
in Winword in the next issue of the International Journal of Tantric 
Studies (http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/), Computer Space, written by 
Arch. L. Magnocavallo.
The IJTS will be published for our Members tonight. 
It will be published in our WWW pages in a few days.  

Dott. Enrica Garzilli
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS

******************************************************************************
"Sometimes I sit and think: why these people hate us so bad? I chalk it up 
to two things: jealously and plain ignorance!" 
******************************************************************************



 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Thu Nov 16 02:45:30 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 21:45:30 -0500
Subject: Hindus Abandon Afghanistan (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227021657.23782.16996477148669587420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I thought members of this list might be interested in reading the following
post re. the fate of minorities in Afghanistan. 

On another matter, it has also been reported (in another news group) that
the Kabul Musuem has been damaged by mortars beyond repairs and much of
the collection has been looted and is being sold abroad. In the
neighboring country - Pakistan - Moenjodaro compounds are in 'ruins' and
are being sadly neglected (vide _The Globe and Mail_ (Toronto) of Oct. 26)
by the Pakistani government. Indologists should be weary of such
developments since future scholars may be deprived of much valuable
materials if ancient artifacts are lost by (our) negligence.

<Sushil>
 
------- start of forwarded message -------
Xref: news soc.religion.hindu:400
From: Rajiv Varma <rvarma at ccaix.jsums.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.hindu
Subject: Hindus Abandon Afghanistan
Date: 2 Nov 1995 02:23:00 GMT


Hindus Abandon Afghanistan

January Violence Is the Last Straw-After 10 Years of War, Virtually All
50,000 Hindus have Fled, Forsaking

By Lavina Melwani, New York

Kandahar in Afghanistan is a small town-a sleepy, four-bazaar town-but
within its heart it holds a burden of griefs: ten-year-old Mukesh had been
sent by his mother to the nearest bazaar to fetch yogurt for lunch. He
never returned home alive. Caught in a sudden volley of cross-fire between
warring factions, he was shot in the brain. His mother never recovered
from the meaningless loss of her youngest child, and died within a few
months. 

Over the past ten years, the rest of this Hindu family have had to flee,
one by one, from their beloved homeland of Afghanistan where they were
born and brought up, and scatter into the far corners of the world. They
are just some of the thousands of Hindu Afghans who have seen their loved
ones, their community and their way of life evaporate before their very
eyes. Such are the daily tragedies behind the stark newspaper headlines of
the war in Afghanistan. 

The once-flourishing capital of Kabul has been turned into a morgue as the
troops of President Burhanuddin Rabbani and the rebel fighters led by his
opponent, Prime Minister Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, fight to the bitter end.
Indeed the last day of a recent four-day ceasefire was used by the warring
factions to dig new trenches in preparation for more fighting. As jets
bomb the embattled city, which is on the brink of famine, people flee the
war zone with a handful of belongings. Thousands are homeless. The key
players in this endless war may have changed from time to time, but the
real victims have always remained the Afghan people. 

The War With no Winners

Like pawns in a high-powered chess game, the Afghans-Sunni and Shiite
Muslim, Hindu and Sikh alike-have watched helplessly as homes, businesses,
places of worship and even lives have been snuffed out by bombs and
bayonets. As Afghans, the Hindus suffer with the rest of the population.
But as minorities in an Islamic country, they are placed in double
jeopardy. When Babri Masjid was destroyed in India by fanatical Hindus at
a Vishwa Hindu Parishad rally in December, 1992, some radical Muslim
Afghans seemed to forget that Hindu Afghans were their countrymen, and
burnt and looted their temples in Kabul, Kandahar and Jalalabad in
retaliation. 

The once-thriving Hindu community in Afghanistan which numbered 40,000 has
now dwindled in some parts to a paltry three families. Manu Lal, a young
Hindu who escaped from Afghanistan into Pakistan and then took refuge in
the U.S., recalls the golden days of Hinduism in Afghanistan: "Indians
have been there for thousands of years. My great-grandfather was born in
Afghanistan. Even in a small town like Kandahar, we had 5,000 Hindus, and
many beautiful temples. There were temples to Shiv Parvati, Devi Mata,
Satyanarayan and also many gurudwaras. There were four big gurudwaras
which even people from India came to see." 

Indeed, many Hindus point out that Afghanistan was originally a Hindu
country, and that 99 percent of the Hindu Afghans were born there. A
statue of Buddha has stood in Kabul for more than 2,000 years and a
mountain is named Asha Mai, after a Hindu goddess. Madan Kumar (his name
has been changed to protect his family still in Afghanistan), a Hindu
Afghan who fled to the U.S. nine years ago, observes: "We have lived in
Afghanistan for generations-why should anyone question our nationality? So
it is the religious differences which are being attacked." 

The Hindus were mostly prosperous merchants, dealing in clothes, dry
fruits, pharmaceuticals, currency exchange and Indian tea and spices. This
may have hardened resentment amongst the Muslim Afghans. Says Kumar,
"Although some Hindus have been so powerful that they have even controlled
the exchange market [looted and burned in the January fightin], there were
thousands of Hindus living in the slums. Overall, though, Hindus have done
well, and that makes them a very visible minority and an easy prey for
opportunistic forces who are looking for unstable situations." 

Manu Lal recalls, "While Kandahar had more Hindus, Jalalabad [just on the
Afghan side of Khyber Pass], which had once been partly controlled by
Ranjit Singh, had a large population of Sikhs. The capital city of Kabul
had a big temple which had a Hindu school and taught religious scriptures
and Hindi. In those days Hindus were very safe because they were treated
like honored guests." Kumar acknowledges that though there may have been
some religious bigotry, generally Muslims and Hindus lived in mutual
respect and friendship. Not any more. 

Temple Destruction

Hindu temples and Sikh gurudwaras have been attacked by rockets and bombs,
some the casualty of war, and some of religious intolerance. About two
years ago the ancient Mata Asha Mai Temple in Kabul, to which the local
Hindus had devoted a lot of time and money, was hit by rockets. A new
building erected in the surroundings has also been damaged, as have the
Hindu cremation grounds. Hindus started using the gurudwara grounds for
their cremations, until the gurudwara was also struck. 

Last January Barnett Rubin, Director of Central Asian Studies at Columbia
University, visited Afghanistan as part of a delegation sent by the
International League for Human Rights, the New York-based organization
which has consultation status with the United Nations. He visited
Jalalabad, where Hindu temples and Sikh gurudwaras had been destroyed, to
investigate whether the cause had been religious intolerance. The city,
which before the war had 4,000 Sikhs and 800-900 Hindus, now has just 50
Sikh families and three Hindu families. He points out that while Hindus
and Sikhs, like all the communities in Afghanistan, have suffered
tremendously due to the war, these two communities have suffered most
profoundly due to the destruction of Babri Masjid. 

Says Rubin: "According to the Hindus and Sikhs in Jalalabad, their places
of worship were undisturbed throughout the war. However, after the
destruction of Babri Masjid, there was an emotional reaction on the part
of some of the people there, and they attacked both the mandir and the
gurudwara and destroyed quite a lot of the property there, although nobody
was injured." Roopchand, a Hindu trader and community leader, explained
that over 2,000 carpets and other valuables which had been endowed to the
temple and which were stored in the basement were burnt or looted. 

The Shurra of the town later apologized to the Sikhs on realizing that
they had nothing to do with the destruction of the Babri Masjid. Comments
Rubin, "Of course, the Hindus in Jalalabad had absolutely nothing to do
with that too but I'm afraid there's a kind of tribal mentality still
which is that when members of a certain group harm your group, then you
take vengeance on that group. So they did not apologize to the Hindus." 

Rubin and his team interviewed the three remaining Hindu families in
Jalalabad and also visited the 850-year-old mandir which is a mazaar or
pilgrimage place of the Bhakti saint Mathuradas. According to the Hindus,
it was visited by people of all faiths since it was a combined Bhakti-Sufi
shrine. But as Rubin points out, "All the religions have become more
fundamentalized now, so they are more separate." The Hindus told the
delegation that the destruction of the temple was not a mass movement and
that they do not suffer continuing harassment. The delegation, however,
found plenty of human rights violations. Rubin says, "Obviously burning or
looting of temples and gurudwaras is an example of religious intolerance" 

No Easy Way Out

With the capital of Kabul totally swallowed in the fighting, Hindus can no
longer get visas from the consulate there or fly to Delhi. The alternate
route is overland through Pakistan, but Pakistan will not issue transit
visas unless they already have visas to India. Since there are no
distinguishing marks to separate them from other Afghans, who do not
require visas, Hindus do slip into Pakistan without visas. However, the
situation is fraught with danger if their Hindu identity is discovered.
Sikhs, because of their turbans and beards, have an even harder time
entering Pakistan without a visa. Rubin observes, "There is some kind of
religious discrimination on the part of the Pakistani authorities since
they don't allow Hindu or Sikh Afghans to go into Pakistan without a visa
while other Afghans are allowed to do so." 

So as the once-beautiful, rugged country of Afghanistan slowly
disintegrates, those who can escape, do. Many Hindus and Sikhs have fled
to safety in India, Germany and the U.S. Those who stay behind, as one
Hindu pointed out, are either too poor or too greedy. Indeed, contrary to
the stereotypes of all Hindus being rich traders, there are many
struggling there who have no way of paying passage out of war-torn
Afghanistan. Rubin says, "There are no wealthy Hindus in Jalalabad. If
they are wealthy, they are not living in Jalalabad." 

While the majority have found refuge in India, a small number have landed
up in America. Manu Lal, whose young brother was killed in the bazaar
crossfire and whose mother died from the trauma of her son's death, fled
to Pakistan and then to the U.S., to escape compulsory induction into the
Afghan army. Another brother, who was in the army, was paralyzed during
warfare. Yet another brother, forced into the army at age 14, managed to
also flee to the U.S. Relative newcomers, the hardworking family is
starting from scratch. 

Madan Kumar has been luckier than most refugees: he came into the U.S.
nine years ago as a professional and managed to make a good living for
himself. The scars, however, remain. Asked if he experienced any tragedies
while fleeing, he says, "That in itself is a tragedy-being forced to leave
the country where you were born and raised. You establish links throughout
your life and all of a sudden you're cut-off. Not all the families have
been able to re-unite. It would not be an exaggeration if I told you that
for the first five years every single night I had nightmares about the
war. I thought I was back in Afghanistan." 

A sizeable number of refugees have joined family members in Germany. The
U.S. has a small community of Hindu and Sikh Afghan refugees, totalling
about 500-600 people, or about 150 families. About two years back they
formed an Indian Afghan Organization, which has its main office in New
York and a branch in Maryland. Since many of these refugees fled with just
the shirt on their backs, they have few possessions or mementos of their
life in Afghanistan. They have just the memories and they share these with
each other in social gatherings organized on religious festivals like
Diwali and Holi. 

If you ask Madan Kumar what he misses the most about a peaceful pre-war
Afghanistan, he says, "The peace itself. That was a time when people were
innocent, when there wasn't much dushmani (enmity). There was little
religious intolerance. Hindus and Muslims were friends. They were a
God-fearing people, living in peace. People have lost the culture they had
for centuries. Something has been lost in this war, and it cannot be found
again." 

As the guns of war continue their maniac destruction of Afghanistan, it
seems a certainty that th Hindu population will have vanished when the
smoke clears. The ageless Asha Mai Mountain, the 2,000-year-old Buddha,
and the Mathuradas Temple may still stand, but there will be no
worshippers. Generations of Hindu Afghans will grow up on foreign shores
without knowing their land. As Madan Kumar sadly admits: "If I go there, I
will feel a stranger. That circle of friends and family has completely
vanished. A piece of land means to you as much because of social relations
bound to it. If you've lost all connections, you go to that country in
what hope, to know whom?" 


Afghan Hindus in Delhi

While those who have stayed behind struggle with food shortages, bombs and
a ravaged economy, those who have managed to escape struggle to start a
new life in new places. According to Hinduism Today correspondent in New
Delhi, Rajiv Malik, a large number of refugees have sought asylum in the
capital and adjacent cities. The wealthy ones have settled down in the
posh colonies of New Delhi like Lajpat Nagar and Defence Colony. Others
have purchased homes in middle-class areas East and West Delhi. While
Delhi has attracted the Sikh Afghans, many Hindus have settled in
Faridabad, an industrial township in the neighboring state of Haryana. 

Tek Chand Sarin, 66, is a Hindu refugee from Kabul who came to India eight
months ago and is living with his family in Faridabad, in a middle-class
neighborhood. Sarin, an active member of the Democratic Party during the
early 80's, believes that Hindus were still happy and prosperous during
the period the Russians were in Afghanistan. He noted, "Even after the
Russians left Afghanistan, the Hindus faced no problem during the regimes
of Babrak Karmal and Dr. Najibullah. I remember when Dr. Najibullah was in
India, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi checked up with him about the position
of Hindus in his country. To this the Afghan premier's reply was, `Hindus
of Afghanistan are our own people, and I will ensure that they face no
problem in my country.'" 

Sarin believes the real problems of the Hindus began when the leftists and
fundamentalists came to the forefront in 1992. He says, "Three members of
an influential family of Hindus were brutally murdered by Muslim
fundamentalists after which it became abundantly clear that Hindus were no
longer secure in Afghanistan." 

He recalls the big backlash after the Ayodhya incident, with temples and
gurudwaras being attacked: "There was also an attempt to burn the Holy
Granth in one of the gurudwaras. But the fact is that the exodus of Hindus
had started much before it. Nevertheless, after Ayodhya the feeling of
insecurity gripped the minds of Hindus in a big way as even their women
were insulted."  Sarin and other Hindu leaders had also met with Afghan
President Rabbani to discuss their concerns. He, however, offered no
assurances and that itself showed that times had changed. Says Sarin,
"There were lots of cases of kidnapping and looting and the situation was
going from bad to worse." 

Sarin, who had given an interview to BBC on the violence faced by Hindus
in Afghanistan, found certain cases registered against him and finally
felt compelled to leave the country. While in Afghanistan, he had been a
member of the managing committee of Mata Asha Mai temple. He turned over
the charge of the 2500-year-old temple to the United Nations force, which
set up an office in the temple building. At the same time, he found many
temples and gurudwaras were controlled by militia who were using them as
storehouses for arms and rockets. 

The journey into India via Pakistan was a rocky one. Sarin told Hinduism
Today, "We were harassed along the way. At many places we had to pay money
to avoid inconvenience and harassment. Though I myself had no problem,
many of my co-passengers were asked to shell out Rs. 2500 [US$75] to get
the passport stamped by Pakistani officials." 





--------------------------
Sent by Rajiv Varma <rvarma at ccaix.jsums.edu>






From garzilli at shore.net  Thu Nov 16 03:55:14 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 22:55:14 -0500
Subject: IJTS - Vol. 1, No. 2
Message-ID: <161227021661.23782.18357632841439789103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am very glad to announce that the second issue of the International 
Journal of Tantric Studies has been distributed to the Members. It 
will be published on our web pages (http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts) in the 
next 10 days. 

In the meantime you can download an ASCII copy of the issue from our
FTP server:
ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/

In our server you can also find fonts, utilities, and IJTS's back issues.
                     
                      ----------------------            
                                      
IN THIS ISSUE:

- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
- A DEB... 
- Paper: THE DANCE OF THE GURU'S EIGHT ASPECTS, by Cathy Cantwell 
- NEWS
- COMPUTER SPACE, by Ludovico Magnocavallo
- LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
- COPYRIGHT NOTICE
                      ----------------------
                                           
            THE  DANCE  OF  THE  GURU'S  EIGHT  ASPECTS  
                              by 
                         Cathy Cantwell

ABSTRACT

The Dance of the Guru's Eight Aspects (Guru mTshan brgyad 'chams) is 
century Tibetan master Guru Chos-dbang. Its performance at the small 
rNying-ma-pa monastery in Rewalsar in Himachal Pradesh is described, 
along with the accompanying recitations of praises. The account is 
put into its context as a Buddhist tantric practice by a discussion 
of the tradition of 'chams, the general VajrayAna principles which 
underlie it, and the specific tantric ritual practices performed by 
the monks in preparation for the dances. How interpretations of the 
VajrayAna imagery shed light on its meaning and the significance of 
the concept of ''Liberation through seeing'' are explored.
 





From Satyakaama at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 08:11:49 1995
From: Satyakaama at aol.com (Satyakaama at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 03:11:49 -0500
Subject: Summer Studies in India
Message-ID: <161227021662.23782.6137315475221863184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would be very interested in more information on the programs in India.

Thank you,

Derick
 





From lorenzen at colmex.mx  Thu Nov 16 16:39:08 1995
From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 10:39:08 -0600
Subject: Doniger
Message-ID: <161227021667.23782.15900237286730381704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


	Returning after a short vacation I find most (one is missing) of
the interesting comments on Prof. Doniger's work by Witzel, Wujastyk and
others.  While I mostly try to avoid adding to the voluminous traffic on
the Indology forum I do have a few comments. 

	It seems that perhaps, like many of us, Prof. Witzel is somewhat
envious of Prof. Doniger's status as the current queen of classical 
indology, especially since he, like several others, undoubtedly has a 
better grasp of many (tho not necessarily all) of the indological sources 
she has used in her books.  In my opinion, however, most of his 
comments are rather off the mark.

	Rather than nitpick about her translations for Penguin, it would
have been better for Prof. Witzel to take a look at her many more serious
works.  The best known of these is of course her initial study of Shiva's
myths in the Puranas.  Despite the now dated adornments of Levi-Straussian
theory and Stith Thompsonian motifs, this much cited work still gives us a
very valuable summary and comparative analysis of the different versions
of these myths. I have more problems with the works that followed. 
Without attempting to go thru them one by one, one obvious criticism is
that most attempt to bridge the gap between an eclectic blend of recent
theories and classical indology without being totally convincing on either
end.  One often gets the feeling that she is more interested in being
gracefully and elegantly clever than in conveying a coherent set of
theoretical insights or indological data. As was commented about Isaiah
Berlin in a recent review in the "NY Review of Books", Prof. Doniger
prefers to run with the foxes, who know many things, than sit with the
hedgehog, who knows one big thing.  Still, when all is said and done, most
of us will be lucky to have our work cited in future studies about our
research topics, while before long someone will be writing a Ph.D. ABOUT
Prof. Doniger. 

David Lorenzen
El Colegio de Mexico

 





From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA  Thu Nov 16 21:15:08 1995
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:15:08 -0600
Subject: A riddle
Message-ID: <161227021669.23782.13028636466877695390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Being a university professor is one of the few jobs, at least as far as I 
am aware, in which one is expected to be involved in some sort of 
"community service". Not many people from the community have been banging 
on my door for my help, but someone recently has. An acquaintance of mine 
has been given a verse to memorize and repeat. (By whom and why I don't 
know. Maybe something to do with the Iyengar school of yoga.) Being 
curious, she asked me if I would tell her how to pronounce it properly 
and what it means. The following is what she gave me. I haven't 
completely figured it out yet (and frankly, I'm now stuck), but I thought 
some of you may be interested in trying to figure it out for yourselves. 
It's sort of like editing a corrupt manuscript. I would offer a prize, 
but the garage just called me and said my car needed $1400  in repairs.
I'm trying to cheer myself up.

Here's the verse, just as I was given it:

	Om Tryambakam
		Yejama Hai
	Sugandhim pushti
		vardhanam
	Urva rukumiva
		bandhanan
	mrityor mukshiya
		mamritat

Have fun,
Bob Hueckstedt

Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca
fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797

 





From hgm at MIT.EDU  Thu Nov 16 20:34:45 1995
From: hgm at MIT.EDU (Harsha G Marti)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:34:45 -0500
Subject: Summer Studies in India
Message-ID: <161227021665.23782.8587105384232356313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would be very interested in finding out more about this program. Thank you.


Sincerely,

Harsha G. Marti
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
 





From snizybor at hpcnq30.cup.hp.com  Thu Nov 16 23:35:05 1995
From: snizybor at hpcnq30.cup.hp.com (Steve Nizyborski)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 15:35:05 -0800
Subject: A riddle (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227021671.23782.11693790383217066146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>Here's the verse, just as I was given it:
> 
> 
> 
>	Om Tryambakam
>		Yejama Hai
>	Sugandhim pushti
>		vardhanam
>	Urva rukumiva
>		bandhanan
>	mrityor mukshiya
>		mamritat


Here's what I remember...what did you say I won?...a car?  :-)
See Rv. 7.59.12

om  tryambakaM yajAmahe sugandhim pushhTivardhanam
urvArukam iva bandhanAt mR^ityoH mukshhIya mA amR^ItAt

Om We worship the three-eyed one, sweet fraganced (or
wearing sandalwood, I suppose) and the promotor of welfare.  

May we be released from the bondage (of) death like the urvAruka fruit, 
not (released) from immortality.

Sorry, I don't recall the form mukshhIya (from dhAtu muJNj), so the
"May we be released" part is suspect, but that's the gist, if memory serves.

Steve Nizyborski

 





From shailesh at cair.ernet.in  Thu Nov 16 11:29:06 1995
From: shailesh at cair.ernet.in (shailesh at cair.ernet.in)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:29:06 +0500
Subject: Summer Studies in India
Message-ID: <161227021664.23782.9614045678732331111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> 
> 
> This is in response to a recent query concerning summer study programs in
> India. Taxila Academy, a new program in Bangalore, India, which offers 
> introductory courses in: 
> 
> Language Study
> Epics and Mythology
> Art and Architecture
> Cinema and Society
> Classical Music and Dance
> Modern Indian Literature
> 
> It has been organized by students and professors at the University of 
> Chicago, Oxford, Jawaharlal Nehru University and Delhi University.
> 
> If anyone is interested, I can provide more information.
> 
> Aditya.
>  
> 
	I am interested.
	I live in Bangalore only.
Regards and best wishes.
					shailesh at cair.ernet.in

 





From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA  Fri Nov 17 00:54:10 1995
From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (Richard P Hayes)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 19:54:10 -0500
Subject: Gold and mercury
Message-ID: <161227021673.23782.11426858288629186674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I urgently need the following information and I will be extremely grateful
> for any help:
> 1. In ancient India, how was "new" gold obtained, i.e. by mining, panning
> etc?
> 2. Do we know the general quality of that mined/panned gold? Some newly
> obtained gold is relatively a pure metal, other gold has to be purified by
> various chemical and heating methods.

Owing to being in a rush, I cannot check the precise sources for you
now, but I recall seeing discussion in Dharmakiirti's Pramaa.navaartika
in the Pramaa.na-siddhi chapter where there is some reference to the
role of mercury in refining gold. Not being a metallurgist, I was unable
to understand what exactly was being done but did eventually find some
explanations in some books my father (who is a geologist) had on his
shelf. As I recall, the process involves mixing mercury with heated
or pulverized gold ore; small particles of gold dust adhere to the
mercury and can then be precipitated out. My memory is dim on the
details. Indeed, my whole mind is dim on nearly everything. If this
reference in Dharmakiirti is something you'd like to pursue, please
contact me next week after I return from the AAR. Or ask John Dunne,
also at Harvard. He knows lots of mostly useless things.

Richard Hayes (cxev at musica.mcgill.ca)
 





From pp001460 at interramp.com  Fri Nov 17 07:56:29 1995
From: pp001460 at interramp.com (pp001460 at interramp.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 23:56:29 -0800
Subject: A riddle
Message-ID: <161227021674.23782.2955219030836759318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>Being a university professor is one of the few jobs, at least as far as I 
>am aware, in which one is expected to be involved in some sort of 
>"community service". Not many people from the community have been banging 
>on my door for my help, but someone recently has. An acquaintance of mine 
>has been given a verse to memorize and repeat. (By whom and why I don't 
>know. Maybe something to do with the Iyengar school of yoga.) Being 
>curious, she asked me if I would tell her how to pronounce it properly 
>and what it means. The following is what she gave me. I haven't 
>completely figured it out yet (and frankly, I'm now stuck), but I thought 
>some of you may be interested in trying to figure it out for yourselves. 
>It's sort of like editing a corrupt manuscript. I would offer a prize, 
>but the garage just called me and said my car needed $1400  in repairs.
>I'm trying to cheer myself up.
>
>Here's the verse, just as I was given it:
>
>	Om Tryambakam
>		Yejama Hai
>	Sugandhim pushti
>		vardhanam
>	Urva rukumiva
>		bandhanan
>	mrityor mukshiya
>		mamritat
>
>Have fun,
>Bob Hueckstedt

I might be able to help.  The verse happens to be among those on a set of two 
audio casettes _Sounds of Tantra_ by Harish Johari.  This would probably be a 
good source for your acquaintance, since not only the correct pronunciation, 
but also the intonation are demonstrated. The caseetes are from Destiny 
Recordings One Park Street, Rochester, N.Y. 05767.

In an accompanying book by Johari _Tools for Tantra_ , Destiny Books, 1986
on page 43. the mantra, which Johari calls the Mahamrityunjaya Mantra, is 
written exactly as follows:

AUM TRIYAMBAKAM YAJA MAHE
SUGANDHIM PUSHTHI VARDHANAM
URVARUK MIV BANDHANANI
MRITYOR MUKSHIYE MAMRITAT

[capitals in cited work]
Johari goes on to summarize its import (though not its semantic or 
grammatical meaning).  

"Ths powerful mantra of Siva the Rudra removes physical, mental and celestial 
ailments.  Like Gayatri this is an all-purpose mantra . . . Mahamrityunjaya 
Mantra is supposed to give victory over death, suffering and disease.  It 
removes obstacles, creates a suitable environment and brngs happiness to 
life." (p. 43).

I hope this will be somewhat helpful.

Cheers,
N. C. Much


 





From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Nov 17 05:29:22 1995
From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 00:29:22 -0500
Subject: A riddle
Message-ID: <161227021676.23782.9611135489087962916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



The verse is RV 7.59.12 in almost good transcription, save the long 
vowels and minus the accents. Plus OM at the beginning.

Such things can be found out in a minute in Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance.

The verse (Mrtyumjauaya) is a later addition to te RV hymns, and it is alos 
found in the so-called Sivasamkalpa Up. 
 





From mchari at bcm.tmc.edu  Fri Nov 17 15:23:15 1995
From: mchari at bcm.tmc.edu (mchari at bcm.tmc.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:23:15 -0600
Subject: A riddle
Message-ID: <161227021683.23782.6337502186461144163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sir,
The translation into english as well as the proper
pronounciation of the Tryambakamantra is given in
the booklet and cassette entitled "Vedic Chanting -
a Self-Study" by Swami Vagisananda and is available
with Arsha Vidya Gurukulam, P.O. Box 1059, Saylorsburg,
PA, 18353. Tel 717-992-2339.
 





From Reganch at aol.com  Fri Nov 17 14:33:28 1995
From: Reganch at aol.com (Reganch at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:33:28 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021681.23782.7294764607906144403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a summer program in Bengali at U.Washington Seattle. Carol Solomon
was teaching it in 1990 when I was attending. It's a great program. There is
also a Hindi & Urdu program there, but U. W Madison also has a Hindi & Urdu
program.
 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Nov 17 15:00:50 1995
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:00:50 -0500
Subject: A riddle
Message-ID: <161227021678.23782.10086307040596178782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The correct reading for the Vedic verse is as follows:

	OM
	trayambakaM yajaamahe
	sugandhiM puZTivardhanam
	urvaarukam iva bandhanaan
	mRtyor mukZiiya maa mRtaat

	Madhav Deshpande

On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, RAH wrote:

> Being a university professor is one of the few jobs, at least as far as I 
> am aware, in which one is expected to be involved in some sort of 
> "community service". Not many people from the community have been banging 
> on my door for my help, but someone recently has. An acquaintance of mine 
> has been given a verse to memorize and repeat. (By whom and why I don't 
> know. Maybe something to do with the Iyengar school of yoga.) Being 
> curious, she asked me if I would tell her how to pronounce it properly 
> and what it means. The following is what she gave me. I haven't 
> completely figured it out yet (and frankly, I'm now stuck), but I thought 
> some of you may be interested in trying to figure it out for yourselves. 
> It's sort of like editing a corrupt manuscript. I would offer a prize, 
> but the garage just called me and said my car needed $1400  in repairs.
> I'm trying to cheer myself up.
> 
> Here's the verse, just as I was given it:
> 
> 	Om Tryambakam
> 		Yejama Hai
> 	Sugandhim pushti
> 		vardhanam
> 	Urva rukumiva
> 		bandhanan
> 	mrityor mukshiya
> 		mamritat
> 
> Have fun,
> Bob Hueckstedt
> 
> Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
> Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
> Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca
> fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797
> 
>  
> 
 





From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu  Fri Nov 17 16:02:22 1995
From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 11:02:22 -0500
Subject: Gold and mercury
Message-ID: <161227021684.23782.5457733832891625129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> If this reference in Dharmakiirti (to the refinement of gold with
> mercury) is something you'd like to pursue, please contact me next week
> after I return from the AAR. Or ask John Dunne, also at Harvard. He knows
< lots of mostly useless things. 
 
	It's nice to be appreciated.

	By the way, Richard is referring to _Pramaa.navaartika_, 
Pramaa.nasiddhiparicchedam v, 85. The penetration of gold by mercury is 
cited as an example for the position that aggregated matter is not 
necessarily impermeable. I suspect that the commentator Devendrabuddhi 
may have more to say on this issue, but since I am also on my way to the 
AAR, I cannot check the reference. Let me know if I can help you upon my 
return next week.

John Dunne
Study of Religion
Harvard University

 





From ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov  Fri Nov 17 16:36:00 1995
From: ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov (ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 11:36:00 -0500
Subject: Hindu numerals and zero
Message-ID: <161227021686.23782.4977191451738525568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for detailed information on the invention of zero.  Did a 
Jain King in 300 BC ask his court mathematician to count the population in 
his kingdom, and the mathematician say that the numbers 1 thru 9 used at 
that time would not be convenient to add up a large number and invented 
zero. 

Also, does anyone have an E-Mail address for the Head, Department of Vedic 
Studies at Banaras Hindu University in India?

                        Thanks
                        Arun Vohra
                        ARUN.VOHRA at HQ.DOE.GOV           
 





From srini at engin.umich.edu  Fri Nov 17 16:36:59 1995
From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 11:36:59 -0500
Subject: Doniger
Message-ID: <161227021680.23782.12530985746176643176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

David Lorenzen writes:
>>Rather than nitpick about her translations for Penguin,
>>it would have been better for Prof. Witzel to take a look
>>at her many more serious works.
 
In all fairness to Prof.Witzel, I, and a couple of
others, asked for a more elaborate critique of these
translations for Penguin, _specifically_ .

-Srini.
 





From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA  Fri Nov 17 20:54:20 1995
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 14:54:20 -0600
Subject: Thanks, riddle solved
Message-ID: <161227021688.23782.13323425879815370347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

So many people responded, and cheered me up, that I cannot thank all of 
you personally. Please take this shotgun expression of thanks as a 
personal one. 

Gratefully,
Bob Hueckstedt

Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca
fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797

 





From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Nov 17 23:38:52 1995
From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 17:38:52 -0600
Subject: Hindu numerals and zero
Message-ID: <161227021689.23782.17844089639420164649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mr. Vohra,

Here is what Mr. Kak said:

As to the zero sign my own research suggests that it was
invented around 50 bc - 100 ad. I published a paper
several years ago in MANKIND QUARTERLY detailing all my
arguments. No, I have not heard about the Jain King's story.




Yvette C. Rosser

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT
   TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT."  *  Justice Learned Hand
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Sat Nov 18 02:15:57 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 21:15:57 -0500
Subject: Bombay-born writer wins Literary Prize
Message-ID: <161227021691.23782.13702221758449784572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Extracts from _The Globe and Mail_ Nov. 8, 1995

MISTRY WINS GILLER FOR SECOND NOVEL

Author writes of India during turbulence of emergency
rule under Indira Gandhi

by Val Ross

TORONTO - Rohinton Mistry, 43, a Bombay-born writer now living in 
Brampton, Ont., has won the second annual Giller Prize for his novel 
_A Fine Balance, a complex and sweeping epic of modern India in the
mid-1970s, the time of Indira Gandhi's imposing of emergency rule.

Mistry, a former Governor-General's Award winner, received a cheque for
$25,000 as well as a 45-centimetre bronze statue by sculptor Yehouda Chaki.

<text deleted>

This year's winner...is Mistry's second novel. It was eagerly awaited 
after the spectacular success of his first (novel), _Such a Long 
Journey_, which won the 1992 Commonwealth Writers' Prize and the 1991 
Governor-General's Award for English-language fiction, as well as the 
Smith-Books/Books in Canada First Novel award. It was also short listed 
for Britain's Booker Prize.

In his new novel, Mistry returns to India, to the lives of two 
impoverished, low-caste tailors, a student and their widowed landlady 
Dina Dalal, as they try to hang on to their dignity, self-sufficiency 
and principles amid brutal upheaval.

The Giller Prize is Canada's most generous such award, offered 
specifically for fiction written in English....
------------------------------------------------------------

Sushil Jain
 





From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU  Sat Nov 18 09:15:47 1995
From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 03:15:47 -0600
Subject: Midnight's Children
Message-ID: <161227021692.23782.4682681693789188970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I just read Anita Desai's introduction to _Midnight's Children_ by Salman
Rushdie. She associates his book with post-colonialism as if it were a
discrete political and cultural movement. And she sees his book as an
example of magical realism. She makes it sound, if I am reading her
correctly, that his style owes much to Gabriel Marquez and Gunter Grass. But
I see it as going back much further than that--- to the modernists, such as
Joyce and to twentieth century fantastic fiction at large, such as Nabokov's
early novels. 
    
It seems to me that she has unfairly appropriated the heterogeneity and
polyglotism of Anglo-Indian literature for post-modernist political
discourse when it is simply consistent with literary movements which have
been welling up since WWI. 

Does anybody have any ideas about this?
Robin Kornman
 





From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU  Sat Nov 18 09:15:52 1995
From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 03:15:52 -0600
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021694.23782.11401500878099592783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Responding to the letter that said that Wendy O'Flaherty's translations were
popular because of their packaging and price:  

It ain't necessarily so. I've used her translations often in Freshman and
Sophomore general education classes. The fact is that they are readable and
organized in a pedagogically useful way. More accurate translations are
sometimes so hard to read. My students need clear, user friendly English and
an apparatus which deals with their needs. These things OF providess.

Inaccuracies? Well, of course, I naturally deplore inaccuracies. I'm sure
there are none or few in my own translations. But, if there are inaccuracies
in OF's translations, there are no in spots that cause me a problem in an
introductory course in Asian Literature. The students are doing a quick and
cursory reading and walk away with only the vaguest sense of what they have
read. If I were focusing on a text with a sustained examination, I might
choose another kind of translation. 

Here's a good example of that. I like using Dorothy Sayer's translation of
_The Divine Comedy_ in broad humanities classes. It rhymes and is fun to
read and has a sense of spirit. The footnotes address interesting religious
issues. I know that it is full of inaccuracies. But it can be read quickly
and easily and enjoyed by a neophyte. For a slow, sustained reading, there
are several much more carefully translated and more fully annotated editions. 

Robin Kornman
 





From mrabe at artic.edu  Sat Nov 18 15:06:10 1995
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 10:06:10 -0500
Subject: Midnight's Children
Message-ID: <161227021699.23782.5625782252707000946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse is reminded of Dandin when reading Rushdie.

I was also reminded of that great alamkarika, right from p. 1 of the
_Satanic Verses_, when the two protagonists, "fighting gravity with
levity," joke back an forth as they fall from a bombed airline to the
British Channel.

Michael Rabe
Saint Xavier University
School of the Art Institute of Chicago



 





From adsood at midway.uchicago.edu  Sat Nov 18 18:59:24 1995
From: adsood at midway.uchicago.edu (aditya dev sood)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 12:59:24 -0600
Subject: 'Midnight's Children' problems.
Message-ID: <161227021701.23782.15252070063680840689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I'm sorry to interject so sharply, but am I the only one who finds it
extremely problematic to either typify Rushdie's novel as "very south
asian" or to disavaw that there are strands within it which reverberate
against "postcolonial literatures" since WWII, which may also find their
antecdents in european novels between the war -- themselves never
conceived in a vacum, nor untainted by exposure to the then-colonies? 


Rushdie is no high scholar of 'the Indian Tradition,' but as the product
of someone who has lived in India, Pakistan and then England, his work
demands critical apparatuses which are at least as cosmopolitan, and
considerably more sophisticated. 'Either-Or' questions are specifically
disallowed by these texts. What Rushdie and, perhaps Desai as well, are
doing is to demand that this mixed, polyglossic, doggerel texture of our
world be acknowledged and articulated. 


Has Indology (the mind-frame, the discourse, the discipline, the listserver) 
responded to this challenge? Should it? How?


Aditya Dev Sood
adsood at midway.uchicago.edu
 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Sat Nov 18 13:30:23 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 14:30:23 +0100
Subject: Midnight's Children
Message-ID: <161227021696.23782.17817019282229477639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I just read Anita Desai's introduction to _Midnight's Children_ by Salman
>Rushdie. She associates his book with post-colonialism as if it were a
>discrete political and cultural movement. And she sees his book as an
>example of magical realism. She makes it sound, if I am reading her
>correctly, that his style owes much to Gabriel Marquez and Gunter Grass. But
>I see it as going back much further than that--- to the modernists, such as
>Joyce and to twentieth century fantastic fiction at large, such as Nabokov's
>early novels.
>
>It seems to me that she has unfairly appropriated the heterogeneity and
>polyglotism of Anglo-Indian literature for post-modernist political
>discourse when it is simply consistent with literary movements which have
>been welling up since WWI.
>

When reading Midnight's Children some years ago it struck me that Rushdie
seems to owe a lot to the old Indic kath-a. He utilized motives and
personalities from Hindu mythology quite creatively, and I felt personally
that his storytelling was very South Asian. I may be wrong about his
sources of inspiration, but the Sanskrit stories by Dandin and other early
novelists and storytellers are certainly not foreign to the magical and
fantastic. (Read these guys, it's fun!). Anybody out there who have a
similar impression?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Sat Nov 18 14:01:22 1995
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 15:01:22 +0100
Subject: Midnight's Children
Message-ID: <161227021697.23782.12389947326308376947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I just read Anita Desai's introduction to _Midnight's Children_ by Salman
>Rushdie. She associates his book with post-colonialism as if it were a
>discrete political and cultural movement. And she sees his book as an
>example of magical realism. She makes it sound, if I am reading her
>correctly, that his style owes much to Gabriel Marquez and Gunter Grass. But
>I see it as going back much further than that--- to the modernists, such as
>Joyce and to twentieth century fantastic fiction at large, such as Nabokov's
>early novels.
>
>It seems to me that she has unfairly appropriated the heterogeneity and
>polyglotism of Anglo-Indian literature for post-modernist political
>discourse when it is simply consistent with literary movements which have
>been welling up since WWI.
>
>Does anybody have any ideas about this?
>Robin Kornman
>
I always had the impression that there are echoes of the *dastan* ("orally
recited prose promance", to quote Frances Pritchett) in _Midnight's
Children_.  There is the same weaving together of subplots in a main story
line, the intrusion of magic into everyday reality, and the use of richly
textured language that envelopes the reader in the story.

Ruth Schmidt


 





From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca  Sat Nov 18 23:17:50 1995
From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 18:17:50 -0500
Subject: Moenjodaro Ruins
Message-ID: <161227021702.23782.10822450324586279146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

RUINS OF ANCIENT CITY UNDER SIEGE AGAIN
3,500 years later, Moenjodaro faces another death blow
from government neglect, squabbling and public apathy
by
John Stackhouse
The Globe and Mail
Moenjodaro, Pakistan


 ALMOST 3,500 years after it mysteriously collapsed with the
Indus Valley civilization, the ruins of Moenjodaro -- once one of
the largest and most sophisticated cities on Earth -- is again
under seige, this time by government neglect, bureaucratic
squabbling and public apathy.

     The ancient ruins near the Indus River in southern Pakistan
have fallen into such managerial disrepair that authorities have
dropped plans for more excavation and may soon rebury parts of
the city, which once housed more than 40,000 people.

     In the scorching 40-degree heat and tumultuous rains of
Sindh province, Moenjodaro's ancient brick houses, wells, public
baths and orderly streets are cracking and decaying barely 70
years after they were dug up, while a conservation team struggles
with only a fraction of the resources it says it needs.

     "The problem is compounding day by day," said Hakim Ali Shah
Bukhari, director of the Moenjodaro Conservation Cell. 'We need
more funds, more manpower, more technology if we are to cope. On
the contrary, we are getting less and less."

     With barely 10 per cent of the 220-hectare city excavated,
the cash-strapped archaeologists hold no hope of digging deeper
or wider. Mr. Bukhari said three of the seven periods marking
Moenjodaro's 1,000 history will remain unearthed, including the
city's first period, which may hold a wellspring of information
about one of humanity's first encounters with urbanization.

     Moenjodaro, which literally means Mound of the Dead, is one
of Asia's most important archaeological sites. First excavated in
1922, the ancient city boasts the world's first known water
supply and drainage system, including more than 700 private
wells, public sewers and an impressive river draining system
along the Indus. Built between 2,500 BC and 1.500 BC, the city's
houses were made of brick and bitumin, and some were completed
with private lavatories and rubbish chutes.

     Serious conservation work began in 1974, with the United
Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization
(UNESCO) contributing $10-million (U.S.) since then the Pakistan
government investing another

     But as UNESCO prepares to withdraw by 1997, there are
questions about Pakistan's ability to maintain that site. "If it
[UNESCO] were to withdraw today, I would be very doubtful" about
the Project's future, said Frank Preusser, a California-based
conservation expert who sits on Moenjodaro's international
consultative committee.

     "International campaigns are not mean to run 20 years," Mr.
Preusser said. "Usually they run five years, with a tolerance of
up to seven or eight years. UNESCO cannot afford to stay in one
site for so long. And a dependency like this should not be
created."

     Mr. Preusser praised the Pakistanis for their technical work
but said the project has been hobbled by poor management.
Although the site is managed by the autonomous Authority for the
Preservation of Moenjodaro, it is controlled ultimately by
Pakistan's department of archaeology, which has more than 3,000
monuments and five World Heritage Sites under its care.

     As an uncertain future again shadows Moenjodaro, two senior
professionals have quit the conservation team, and two more have
announced they will soon leave. Only 40 of the site's 66 skilled
jobs are filled.

     Walking next to some of the ruined city's 55 kilometres of
mud walls, Mr. Bukhari pointed to his team members, who have the
archaeological equivalent of a fish net to stop a desert
sandstorm. For the entire site, a Japanese expert team
recommended a maintenance staff at least 50, and ideally 100. The
current maintenance staff: six.

     From the outset, bureaucratic squabbling and charges of
corruption have plagues much of the expensive engineering work.

     With 27 tubewells supplied by the state water authority, the
project spends $350,000 (U.S.) a year to drain the site and lower
the water table. For another $1-million, the local team built
five spurs in the Indus River to divert the tumultuous water flow
away from the site.

     Although the water table now appears to be under control,
the lack of financial monitoring has led to suspicions of
government agencies overcharging each other.

     A recent public fund-raising campaign in Pakistan failed to
raise any money for the site, despite the fat that the 10-rupee
note bears the ancient city's image.

     With the site attracting 200 to 300 visitors a day in the
cooler winter months, UNESCO also urged the government to charge
tourists more than the current fee of 12 cents. In Egypt and Sri
Lanka, visitors pay up to $25 a day to see archaeological sites.

     Another money-generating plan called for a new canal to
carry unwanted water from the site to nearby farmlands, where it
could irrigate as much as 15,000 hectares. But farmers refused to
pay for their share of the water. "They said somehow they were
doing us a favour by accepting our water," Mr. Shamsi said.

Source: _The Globe and Mail_ Oct. 26, 1995.

------------------------------------------
Sushil Jain

 





From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu  Sat Nov 18 23:23:29 1995
From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 18:23:29 -0500
Subject: 'Midnight's Children' problems.
Message-ID: <161227021704.23782.14785682439375227998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Aditya Dev Sood's perspective on Rushdie was quite helpful.  Rushdie 
has been making a place for himself in what may (with some risk) be 
called the literature of migrancy or the literature of border-crossings.  
His collection of occasional pieces, Imaginary Homelands, is a valuable 
complement to the novels and draws out some of the implications of being 
a modern migrant or emigre.

Gene R. Thursby
University of Florida
<gthursby at religion.ufl.edu>
 





From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu  Sun Nov 19 15:41:01 1995
From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 07:41:01 -0800
Subject: searching for a book...
Message-ID: <161227021709.23782.12201578011119985060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Does anyone know where I might find a book entitled
Shaivism, published by Telugu University (Hyderabad).
Unfortunately, that's all the information I have.
Peter Claus
 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Sun Nov 19 12:19:14 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 13:19:14 +0100
Subject: 'Midnight's Children' problems.
Message-ID: <161227021706.23782.15840265100015012822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I'm sorry to interject so sharply, but am I the only one who finds it
>extremely problematic to either typify Rushdie's novel as "very south
>asian" or to disavaw that there are strands within it which reverberate
>against "postcolonial literatures" since WWII, which may also find their
>antecdents in european novels between the war -- themselves never
>conceived in a vacum, nor untainted by exposure to the then-colonies?

I certainly agree that Rushdie's novels are not a pure product of the South
Asian tradition, but I find that elements in Midnight's Children that could
only have originated in South Asia. Rushdie does not have to be a South
Asian scholar to have knowledge of the South Asian tradition. As far as I
can see, Western criticism has not be sufficiently aware of this. But by
all means: Rushdie is alive and should be able to comment upon this.
Instead of speculating on his sources of inspiration, South Asian or other,
we should perhaps just ask him.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at  Sun Nov 19 14:43:47 1995
From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 15:43:47 +0100
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021707.23782.8648859329422544484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Responding to the letter that said that Wendy O'Flaherty's translations were
>popular because of their packaging and price:  
>
>It ain't necessarily so. I've used her translations often in Freshman and
>Sophomore general education classes. The fact is that they are readable and
>organized in a pedagogically useful way. More accurate translations are
>sometimes so hard to read. My students need clear, user friendly English and
>an apparatus which deals with their needs. These things OF providess.
>
>Inaccuracies? Well, of course, I naturally deplore inaccuracies. I'm sure
>there are none or few in my own translations. But, if there are inaccuracies
>in OF's translations, there are no in spots that cause me a problem in an
>introductory course in Asian Literature. The students are doing a quick and
>cursory reading and walk away with only the vaguest sense of what they have
>read. If I were focusing on a text with a sustained examination, I might
>choose another kind of translation. 
>
>Here's a good example of that. I like using Dorothy Sayer's translation of
>_The Divine Comedy_ in broad humanities classes. It rhymes and is fun to
>read and has a sense of spirit. The footnotes address interesting religious
>issues. I know that it is full of inaccuracies. But it can be read quickly
>and easily and enjoyed by a neophyte. For a slow, sustained reading, there
>are several much more carefully translated and more fully annotated editions. 
>
>Robin Kornman
> 


I see. Instead of an education, the students are to get advanced cocktail 
party training. 


Max Nihom

 





From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu  Sun Nov 19 20:54:20 1995
From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 15:54:20 -0500
Subject: 'Midnight's Children' problems.
Message-ID: <161227021710.23782.3373809742079111022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Surely a South Asian childhood was a necessary but not sufficient 
condition for the creation of Midnight's Children and Rushdie's more 
recent work.  And he himself has commented on it, more than once.  See, 
for example, his writings gathered under the title Imaginary Homelands 
(Granta/Viking, 1991).  The title essay concerns itself with this 
question.  Moreover, Rushdie develops his thoughts about 
emigrant/immigrant writing in a world in which so many people are in 
transit -- rather than firmly rooted in their birthplace.  The 
increasingly common experience is that of living as a displaced or 
multilocal person.  Cinematic montage is not a required resource for this 
experience, but is relevant to it.

Gene R. Thursby
University of Florida

On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
 
> >I'm sorry to interject so sharply, but am I the only one who finds it
> >extremely problematic to either typify Rushdie's novel as "very south
> >asian" or to disavaw that there are strands within it which reverberate
> >against "postcolonial literatures" since WWII, which may also find their
> >antecdents in european novels between the war -- themselves never
> >conceived in a vacum, nor untainted by exposure to the then-colonies?
> 
> I certainly agree that Rushdie's novels are not a pure product of the South
> Asian tradition, but I find that elements in Midnight's Children that could
> only have originated in South Asia. Rushdie does not have to be a South
> Asian scholar to have knowledge of the South Asian tradition. As far as I
> can see, Western criticism has not be sufficiently aware of this. But by
> all means: Rushdie is alive and should be able to comment upon this.
> Instead of speculating on his sources of inspiration, South Asian or other,
> we should perhaps just ask him.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> 
> 
> 
> Lars Martin Fosse
> Research Fellow
> Department of East European
> and Oriental Studies
> P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
> N-0315 OSLO Norway
> 
> Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
> Fax: +47 22 85 41 40
> 
> E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no
> 
> 
>  
> 
 





From adsood at midway.uchicago.edu  Sun Nov 19 23:47:56 1995
From: adsood at midway.uchicago.edu (aditya dev sood)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 17:47:56 -0600
Subject: Summer Studies in India: FYI
Message-ID: <161227021712.23782.7968322462320471776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


TAXILA ACADEMY

Taxila Academy is a summer program in Indian Studies, set in Bangalore, 
and intended for students in high school and college. The program 
accommodates thirty-five students from North America, Europe and India. 
In 1996, the program will run from July 3 to August 11.

Taxila Academy is intended to provide students a structured introduction 
to present-day India through the framework of its indigenous learning. It 
provides an environment where students from around the world may explore 
India's knowledge systems.


CURRICULUM

Students at Taxila Academy choose two seminars from the following 
selection and then attend classes and do research in those fields. In 
addition, they participate in special lectures, performances and field 
trips. These experiences complement one another to generate questions and 
discussion, enabing students to gain deep insights into India's 
diverse problematics in a short time.

SEMINARS

Epics and Mythology	Cinema and Society	Classical Music and Dance
Art and Architecture	Language Training	Literature and Theory


LECTURE SERIES		PERFORMANCES 		EXCURSIONS

Postcolonial Politics	Bharatnatyam		Madras Region
Islam in India		Kathak			Sravana Belgola
Ecofeminism		Odissi			Nrityagram
Vijayanagar Archeology	Bhajan			Halebid, Belur
Indian Economy		Carnatic		Mysore
Colonial Architecture	Khayal			New Delhi
Sanskrit Literature	Quwalli			Agra


FACULTY

ARINDAM CHAKRABARTY is Professor of Philosophy at Delhi University. He is 
an authority on the Nyaya School of Indian Logic, as well as British 
Philosophy of Mind. On the program Professor Chakrabarty will teach music 
and ethics.

ANANYA VAJPEYI is a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. She is the Academic 
Director of the program and is interseted in alternative education. She 
will teach literary history and linguistic approaches to culture.

KAPIL KAPOOR is Associate Professor at the Center for Linguistics and 
English at Jawaharlal Nehry University. Dr. Kapoor does research in 
Semiotics and teaches North Indian Languages and Poetics.

ADITI JAITLEY teaches Bharatnatyam at the Gandharva Mahavidyalaya. She 
has experimented with intercultural and multimedia performances and will 
teach dance, drama and their appreciation.

PRAHLADACARYA is Professor of Sanskrit at Bangalore University and 
Director of Bangalore's Purnaprajna Vidyapeetham. He is an authority on 
Vedanta and is interested in comparative educational methodology. 

ADITYA DEV SOOD is a Century Fellow at the University of ChicagoUs 
Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations. He serves as 
Program Director and teaches Indian literature, art and architecture.


CAMPUS LIFE

Taxila Academy is located on an aesthetically landscaped 29 acre campus 
in Whitefields, on the outskirts of Bangalore. Built in 1963, its modern 
facilities are surrounded by groves of coconut and palm. It has a ligrary 
of 11,000 volumes with extensive sections on Indian Literature, 
Religions, Philosophy, Art and Politics. It also has classrooms, a large 
auditorium, a dining hall and a sportsfield. 


ADMISSIONS PROCESS

Applications will be reviewed from January 15 through March 15, 1996, on 
a rolling basis. To ensure a place on the program please apply early.


CORRESPONDENCE

For an application package and a brochure, please send your name address 
and phone number to:

TAXILA ACADEMY
5322 South Drexel Avenue, #1B
Chicago IL 60615.
Phonefax: (312) 643 5847

email: taxila at uchicago.edu
http://www.silverleaf.com/taxila

 





From wagers at computek.net  Mon Nov 20 09:49:36 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 03:49:36 -0600
Subject: sci.philosophy.natural FAQ (Long)
Message-ID: <161227021714.23782.13485038795935492165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe that some of the subscribers to this last are interested in the
following FAQ. Please pardon me if you have already seen this FAQ on
another mailing list. It is also available in news.groups.

SCI.PHILOSOPHY.NATURAL Frequently-Asked Questions (FAQ)
-------------------------------------------------------

This FAQ was produced to answer some of the questions
regarding the new, proposed newsgroup: sci.philosophy.natural.

This FAQ was prepared by the proponent: Will Wagers
<wagers at computek.net>.

Please repost this FAQ to other relevant mailing lists and
newsgroups that have not been included in the initial posting
(but, please be sure that it has not already been posted there).


Table of Contents
----------------

 1.  What is sci.philosophy.natural ?
 2.  What is Natural Philosophy ?
 3.  With which historical periods are we concerned ?
 4.  With which cultures are we concerned ?
 5.  Isn't the range of possible subjects too broad?
 6.  Why is the group moderated ?
 7.  Why not change the name to soc.history.science.ancient ?
 8.  Where does the mysticism come in ?
 9.  What is a newsgroup ?
10.  Where is the gateway?
11.  How do I participate?


1.  What is sci.philosophy.natural ?
---------------------------------

sci.philosophy.natural is a proposed, moderated Usenet
newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of and publications on
ancient natural philosophy (science). The focus is the search for
how ancient science influenced ancient mythology, philosophy,
and theology, and their influences, in turn, upon science. The
effort is multi-disciplinary in the extreme, drawing upon the
contributions of scientists, scholars, and other specialists of
every sort.

The proposed newsgroup will replace any existing groups. There
is a small overlap with *many* existing newsgroups and mailing
lists in that subjects appropriate to sci.philosophy.natural are
occasionally discussed there. One purpose of
sci.philosophy.natural is to bring these discussions under one
roof to facilitate interdisciplinary scholarship.

This should result in off-loading some traffic from high volume
newsgroups and mailing lists. It would still leave any and all
posters the forums that currently exist, so there is no question
of denying anyone an outlet for their ideas. The small number of
newsgroups and mailing lists which regularly deal with topics
appropriate to sci.philosophy.natural may regard the proposed
newsgroup as a means of publishing finished articles after the
rounds of specialist comment and criticism have occurred.

The number of potential readers is difficult to estimate due to
the interdisciplinary nature of the group. However, a small
survey for a single subject area encompassed by
sci.philosophy.natural - archaeoastronomy- drew 135 interested
readers or contributors. Many mailing lists from which
sci.philosophy.natural would draw participation have 300-1500
members.


2.  What is Natural Philosophy ?
------------------------------

According to the Oxford English dictionary, 'natural philosophy' is
1) the study of natural bodies as such and of the phenomena
connected with them; 2) physical science, physics, or knowledge
or study of nature , or of natural objects and phenomena; 3)
'natural knowledge" now usually called 'science'; 4) or, more
generally, the study or knowledge of physical phenomena.

In common parlance today, the term is used in two main contexts
to mean either "ancient science" or "physics" (e.g. in the Physics
Department at Glasgow University undergraduates sign up for a
"Natural Philosophy" degree only to discover that it means
mainstream physics).

Aristotle divided ancient science into three convenient
?contemplative? or ?theoretical? philosophies of nature: 1)
Natural Philosophy      (Physics); 2) First Philosophy  (Theology); 3)
and Mathematics.

Although there are many, many possible schemes for organizing
the group, it is the premise of this group that all human studies
relate ultimately to the study of nature, or, if you prefer, of
reality, or of god(s). This represents the three viewpoints on the
study of ultimate reality - scientific, philosophical, and
theological. The group studies at what points the three
viewpoints converge and diverge and the mutual influences
among them. All three viewpoints, at times, use a mythological
means of expression.

Therefore, in our context, natural philosophy means the study or
knowledge of reality, whether approached from a philosophical,
scientific, or theological point of view. It is this simplifying
assumption which will allow us to untangle the roles of the three
viewpoints in their developments. The broadness of the term
allows us to admit all viewpoints which bear on the problem. A
more elaborate justification of this point of view is beyond the
scope of this FAQ.


3.  With which historical periods are we concerned ?
-------------------------------------------------

The primary focus of sci.philosophy.natural is the period up to
and, overlapping to some extent, the 14th century in the West. In
this century, the logarithmic increase in the number of inventions
signals the onset of modern, experimental, scientific progress.
After this time, philosophy, science, and theology grow ever
more distinct, specialized, and incompatible. At the same time,
the mythological expression of "truth" steadily declines.

The use of the term "natural philosophy" extends way beyond
this pre-scientific
period. To some, the term "natural philosophy" implies medieval
science or the sciences of the 17th through 19th centuries in the
West. These periods also exhibit the confounding of the
philosophical, scientific, and theological viewpoints and are
appropriate topics.

However, our primary targets are the pre-scientific periods of
*all* cultures before myth and science completely diverged (if,
indeed, they have). The dates of such developments vary by
culture.  Therefore, the focus of the newsgroup is not purely on
Western natural philosophy, but includes African, Indian, Oriental,
Southeast Asian, etc. The reason for such a broad scope is that it
is only when comparing different cultures that certain
synchretizing or de-synchretizing influences can be observed.
Consequently, the dates of the relevant historical periods will
vary by culture.


4.  With which cultures are we concerned ?
----------------------------------------

All cultures displaying a distinctive philosophical, scientific, or
theological viewpoint are appropriate objects of study. For
example, Aztec, Mayan, and other American Indian cultures,
Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Indian, Islamic, and
Southeast Asian - to name some of the most prominent. Again,
the reason for such a broad scope is that it is only when
comparing different cultures that certain synchretizing or
de-synchretizing influences can be observed.


5.  Isn't the range of possible subjects too broad?
------------------------------------------------

The range of topics is, indeed, purposely broad. The group's very
reason for being is to bring specialists, who are working
elsewhere on more narrow subject areas, together. At this level,
the scholarship on different periods and cultures can be
compared to arrive at more universal themes and tendencies.

Many postings will be finished, electronic, research papers. It is
often these which will be discussed, both in their own contexts
and in the larger context of natural philosophy. The subjects of
postings will be tagged to indicate their primary focus, e.g.
"Classical Mayan:".


6.  Why is the group moderated ?
-------------------------------

sci.philosophy.natural is for scholarly discussion, postings of
papers, postings of professional interest, etc. Neither flames, nor
unfounded 'speculative' postings, nor unrelated commercial
postings can be permitted.

Minority viewpoints are seldom embraced and are often actively
discouraged on many specialist moderated newsgroups and
mailing lists which are dominated by a small group of established
leaders in a certain discipline. All new and revolutionary ideas
begin as minority viewpoints. Therefore, sci.philosophy.natural
*welcomes* minority and controversial viewpoints which are
justified by scholarship and which pass moderation. It will
encourage the development of novel themes and techniques, e.g.
statistical textual analysis. The new newsgroup also recognizes
and encourages the rise of the independent scholar with personal
access to online resources and, often, superior computer skills.

All viewpoints and levels of knowledge are welcome, subject to
the moderation policy described in the Request For Discussion
(RFD) posted in news.announce.newgroups. Because natural
philosophy is such a broad subject and because lively debate on
issues is encouraged, this group is moderated by a panel.
Prospective articles are assigned to a moderator with skills
appropriate for the relevant subject area. Articles will *not* be
rejected based on whether the moderator(s) disagree with the
views expressed. The posting will either be accepted as-is,
rejected, or accepted with changes.


7.  Why not change the name to soc.history.science.ancient ?
----------------------------------------------------------

We seriously considered this possibility. A subgroup of
sci.philosophy.tech was also considered. In the end, we decided
to go with ''sci.philosophy.natural"; partly, because we want to
attract scientists to the discussion. (Many people thought that
soc.history.science should be classified as a sci group.) As you
appreciate, there is a rainbow of possible categories to choose
from, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. *Among*
the groups we hope will contribute are archaeologists,
astronomers, classicists, historians, independent scholars,
linguists, mathematicians, philosophers, physicians, physicists,
scientists, taxonomists, theologians, translators, etc. The point is
that we seek contributions not just from *historians* of
philosophy, but from *philosophers*, for example. Such an
interdisciplinary effort will seem to some (like myself) to
warrant its own major group, to others it may seem to fall
logically into a subgroup of philosophy, religion, or science, as
you please.

The discussions under soc.history.science are generally unrelated
to the proposed newsgroup. Recent threads (11/18/95) in
soc.history.science were discussions on:
        - Darwin, Lamarck, and DNA;
        - a query for a sociology report;
        - the politics of science;
        - paradigm in formulation;
        - the early history of the telephone;
        - evolution;
        - a query about a quote from the National academy of Sciences;
        - Dirac in Westminster Abbey.

None of these threads shares the focus of sci.philosophy.natural.
(A few of the topics might be suitable if the content were
different.) So, the topics of sci.philosophy.natural are no more a
subset of soc.history.science than of many other existing groups,
although anyone already accustomed to classifying it as history
will see the situation otherwise.

A further proof is that many of the threads were cross-posted to
groups in soc.history, sci.philosophy, and other newsgroups.

Some of the topics we shall address have indeed come up in
soc.history.science. However, they come up in many - well over a
hundred - newsgroups and mailing lists. There are questions of
archaeology, anthropology, astronomy, biology, history,
linguistics, mathematics, natural history, palaeography, physics,
symbology, textual interpretation, translation, and on and on. The
purpose of sci.philosophy.natural is to give these discussions a
home. The new group is not to be dominated by the points of
view of any one academic discipline, e.g. historians. The current
newsgroups tend to be too general for our purpose, making our
topics unwelcome. Mailing lists tend to be too specialist, with no
common forum for different specialties to contribute.

Another reason for selecting .sci over .soc is that we hope to
facilitate the use of scientific methods in the process of
resurrecting, translating, and interpreting ancient symbols,
texts, etc. Most of the potential "breakthroughs" in what is
basically a 2,000+-year-old topic are coming from new scientific
techniques and discoveries, e.g. biotechnology, signal processing,
new dating metrics. Only a trained scientist fully understands
their limitations and (scientific) significance. So, scientists and
other specialists must work together in order to sort it all out.


8.  Where does the mysticism come in ?
-------------------------------------

Some people seem to have misinterpreted "natural philosophy"
as "natural theology". They then conclude that the topic is some
form of mysticism. The subject of sci.philosophy.natural is
*science*. It is not the proper forum for promoting or discussing
mysticism except as it may have influenced or been influenced
by ancient science.


9.  What is a newsgroup ?
------------------------

sci.philosophy.natural will be a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing
list. Newsgroups are widely distributed over the Internet. Rather
than e-mail, newsgroups use a protocol called 'NNTP'. To access
them, you need special client software - many are available as
share-/free-ware for DOS, Macintosh, and Windows - connected
to an NNTP server. Most universities and commercial Internet
providers have such servers for the use of their subscribers.
Among the advantages of a newsgroup are: 1) you only see it
when you want to: the thread does not fill up your mailbox; 2)
you view the entire thread of a discussion, rather than viewing it
piecemeal scattered among other topics; 3) newsgroup reading
can be automated; 4) world-wide exposure.

Because it is a different medium, newsgroups routinely co-exist
with mailing lists on similar topics without competition or
interference, e.g. sci.philosophy.tech covers some of the same
topics as PHILOSOP and PHILOS-L. Where overlap exists, many
people will avail themselves of both media.


10.  Where is the gateway?
--------------------------

Many people are either unacquainted with or unable to access
Usenet newsgroups. Upon approval of the new newsgroup, I shall
implement a mailing list gatewayed to this group. This will ensure
that everyone will have the capability of accessing the group
either via Usenet or via the mailing list.


11.  How do I participate?
-------------------------

The first Call for Votes (CFV) either has been or will be posted
shortly in news.announce.newgroups. In order to pass, the
proposal must receive 100 more Yes votes than No votes and, at
least, two thirds of the votes must be positive.

The CFV will include directions for mailing votes to a neutral
votetaker. The voting period will be at least 21 days. In order to
count, your vote must be in the CFV format and posted to the
neutral votetaker, not to me.

We welcome your participation.


 





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Nov 20 14:27:37 1995
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 09:27:37 -0500
Subject: a question on the Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227021722.23782.8442769596332159689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	Currently I am reading the Shakuntala story from the Mahabharata 
with my students.  In verses 1.68.2 and 1.68.58, we are told that the 
gestation period for Bharata was three years.  NiilakaNTha's commentary 
does not explain this, nor does Van Buitenan.  Does anyone know the 
significance of "three years"?
	All the best,
			Madhav Deshpande
 





From pdb1 at columbia.edu  Mon Nov 20 14:43:51 1995
From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 09:43:51 -0500
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021725.23782.14199226699101306885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Max Nihom wrote:
 
> I see. Instead of an education, the students are to get advanced cocktail 
> party training. 

And instead of reasoned arguments, Indology subscribers are to be treated 
to snide one-liners.

						-Peter D. Banos
						pdb1 at columbia.edu
 





From cxw1057 at s2.cxwms.ac.uk  Mon Nov 20 11:39:36 1995
From: cxw1057 at s2.cxwms.ac.uk (Mr G Radja)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 11:39:36 +0000
Subject: mantras
Message-ID: <161227021715.23782.4088830376235854167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there anyone who could provide me the mantras, yantras for the Bagla 
Mukhi Sadhana. 

Please e-mail on cxw1057 at s2.cxwms.ac.uk 

 





From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no  Mon Nov 20 12:57:57 1995
From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 13:57:57 +0100
Subject: 'Midnight's Children'
Message-ID: <161227021717.23782.16959120369515892050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is a reply to Aditya Dev Sood's comments about Rushdie's work, which were:

>I'm sorry to interject so sharply, but am I the only one who finds it
>extremely problematic to either typify Rushdie's novel as "very south
>asian" or to disavaw that there are strands within it which reverberate
>against "postcolonial literatures" since WWII, which may also find their
>antecdents in european novels between the war -- themselves never
>conceived in a vacum, nor untainted by exposure to the then-colonies?
>
>Rushdie is no high scholar of 'the Indian Tradition,' but as the product
>of someone who has lived in India, Pakistan and then England, his work
>demands critical apparatuses which are at least as cosmopolitan, and
>considerably more sophisticated. 'Either-Or' questions are specifically
>disallowed by these texts. What Rushdie and, perhaps Desai as well, are
>doing is to demand that this mixed, polyglossic, doggerel texture of our
>world be acknowledged and articulated.
>
>Has Indology (the mind-frame, the discourse, the discipline, the listserver)
>responded to this challenge? Should it? How?
>
Mr. Sood's comments appear directed toward Lars Martin Fosse's observation that
"When reading Midnight's Children some years ago it struck me that Rushdie
seems to owe a lot to the old Indic kath-a. He utilized motives and
personalities from Hindu mythology quite creatively, and I felt personally
that his storytelling was very South Asian"--and/or to my observation that:
"I always had the impression that there are echoes of the *dastan* in
_Midnight's
Children_."

To say that there are echoes of South Asian narrative genres in _Midnight's
Children_ is not at all the same thing as saying that _Midnight's Children_
is a *kath-a*, or a *dastan*.

Here is what Rushdie himself says, in _Imaginary Homelands-:

        "I was born an Indian, and not only an indian, but a
Bombayite--Bombay, most cosmopolitan, most hybrid, most hotchpotch of
Indian cities.  My writing and thought have therefore been as deeply
influenced by Hindu myths and attitudes as Muslim ones....Nor is the West
absent from Bombay (404)...
        "A book is a kind of passport.  And my passports, the works that
gave me the permits I needed, included _The Film Sense_ by Sergei
Eisenstein, the _Crow_ poems of Ted Hughes, Borges _Fictions_, Sterne's
_Tristam Shandy_, Ionescu's play _Rhonoceros--and, that summer of 1967,
_(Gunter Grass's) _The Tin Drum_ (276).

It is not surprising if we find echoes of a variety of literary traditions
in Rushdie's writing. It would be even more surprising if we didn't find
the flavor of South Asian literary genres.

Since I am the one who mentioned the *dastan*, I would also like to observe
that it is not a purely South Asian genre, but is found in large areas of
the Muslim world.

Best wishes,

Ruth Schmidt


 





From asha_heera at sara.nl  Mon Nov 20 14:04:08 1995
From: asha_heera at sara.nl (asha)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 15:04:08 +0100
Subject: wanted Kalidasa's poems
Message-ID: <161227021719.23782.2209059619134590001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Anyone there has Kalidasa's poems
 
bye
asha
 





From asha_heera at sara.nl  Mon Nov 20 14:05:27 1995
From: asha_heera at sara.nl (asha)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 15:05:27 +0100
Subject: wanted Brhartsahita
Message-ID: <161227021720.23782.18048344037689815066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
I would like to have the Brhahmsamhita.
 
bye
asha
 





From francois at sas.ac.uk  Mon Nov 20 15:19:45 1995
From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 15:19:45 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations
Message-ID: <161227021723.23782.12818791233536552059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



	As a newcomer to the field I have followed with interest the
discussion on Doniger O'Flaherty's translation of the *Rig-Veda* which has
been for me a basic means of access to this important text. I cannot judge
the accuracy of the translation but I do not see why the standards of
scholarly editions should not apply to so-called popular versions.  A good
translation can be read intensively and slowly, or simply browsed quickly. 
But more importantly while a scholarly edition is likely to be read and
scrutinised by informed specialists - and inspire at worse nasty
reviews in the scholarly press -  a popular paperback edition can spread 
mistaken views to a wide audience, with sometimes disastrous results. 
Thus the latter involves a far greater responsability which makes any 
excuse for inaccurracy and sloppiness sound very shallow indeed.

				Francois Quiviger

 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Mon Nov 20 16:45:15 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 16:45:15 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021727.23782.12594224565994190800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Max Nihom said:

> I see. Instead of an education, the students are to get advanced cocktail 
> party training. 

Oh please!  A good education teaches a student to present cogent
arguments.  Perhaps you could provide some arguments yourself, rather
than mud-slinging?

Questions about the aim of translation, the value of precision, and more
generally the nature of badness in literature, are far from trivial, and
the point of the present thread of discussion about WDO's translations
-- initiated as it was by Srinivasan Pichumani's querying of
unsubstantiated criticisms -- is to try to raise level of debate.  In
his point-by-point exemplification of some errors in three of WDO's
works, Prof. Witzel has raised the discussion to a new level of
interest.  Let's keep it there.

That there are errors in a translation is both regrettable and
unavoidable, as I think everyone agrees.  But several of the
participants in this discussion seem also to agree that the existence of
error is not an absolute matter, and that providing the errors are not
too misleading or pervasive, there are other factors, including chiefly
the aptness of the use of the target language, which may still sway the
balance of of a book of translations into the favourable category
according to valid criteria.

One of the problems in elevating precision to a position of ultimate
criterion of scholarly acceptance is that "precision" is in itself
undefinable.  Translation is an art, not a science.  Sometimes the most
apparently "accurate" translations are very difficult to understand,
perhaps even more so than the text in the source language to a competent
reader.  In such cases, what has been achieved?  Is an incomprehensible
translation better than a comprehsnsible but less "accurate" one?  This
is exemplified in Kielhorn's translation of Nagesabhatta's
Paribhasendusekhara, I think.  It is so grotesquely em-bracketted and
contorted that the bare force of the original is quite lost and the
arguments are sometimes heavily obscured (though sometimes clarified
too, of course).

A related issue is that translations that present themselves as
"philologically literal" can be
a) concealing the translator's inability to understand the text,
b) reflecting his reluctance or inability to do the work necessary to
   make the translation readable and pleasant in the target language, or
c) hiding the fact that the translator lacks the courage to come down on
   one side or another in a matter of interpretation.

--

I find it telling that the lines of this argument about WDO's
translations are drawn -- as far as I can see -- along language
boundaries.  I think (correct me if I am wrong) that most of those who
think there is pedagogical value in WDO's translations are native
speakers of English, while those who like her translations least are
native speakers of German or other languages. Does this work?  Is it
relevant?

Nobody has mentioned WDO's "Textual Sources for the Study of Hinduism"
(Manchester Univ. Press, 1988) in this discussion.  Again, in my view
a collection of diverse texts from many periods and genres of Indian
literature which is very useful for English-speaking students, and
well-suited for classroom discussion.  Is this book perhaps not very
well known because of being published in England?

Dominik

-- 

Dominik Wujastyk,
Wellcome Institute,
183 Euston Road,
London NW1 2BE.

FAX: +44 171 611 8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk

For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html

 





From KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu  Tue Nov 21 02:52:02 1995
From: KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu (KHarper at lmumail.lmu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 18:52:02 -0800
Subject: Mohenjo-daro
Message-ID: <161227021729.23782.12613159657194222819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     While attempting to print out the very interesting article
     on the politics and lack of money needed to maintain
     Mohenjo-daro, I accidently erased it.  Would someone be
     kind enough to forward it to me or post is again?  Thanking
     you in advance.
     
     Katherine Harper
     kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu
 





From mrabe at artic.edu  Tue Nov 21 13:01:20 1995
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 08:01:20 -0500
Subject: Blind Men and the Elephant
Message-ID: <161227021738.23782.3569556584132902987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone identify the presumptive source in niti or katha literature for
John Godfrey Saxe's poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant," first published
in his _Clever Stories of Many Nations_ (Boston, 1865), 61-64?

I had suspected that he invented the premise himself, but recently came
across an early 19th c. painting on the subject from China. Might it then
have an East Asian origin?

Any leads or suppositions will be much appreciated.

Michael Rabe
Saint Xavier Univerity
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago


 





From IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU  Tue Nov 21 16:54:00 1995
From: IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (robert l brown)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 08:54:00 -0800
Subject: Mohenjo-daro
Message-ID: <161227021742.23782.18052020783120114680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kathy, I have it.  Bob Brown



------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 03:07:44 GMT
> Reply-To: indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
> Sender: indology-request at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
> From: KHarper at LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU(Katherine Harper)
> To: Members of the list <indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK>
> Subject: Mohenjo-daro
>
>      While attempting to print out the very interesting article
>      on the politics and lack of money needed to maintain
>      Mohenjo-daro, I accidently erased it.  Would someone be
>      kind enough to forward it to me or post is again?  Thanking
>      you in advance.
>
>      Katherine Harper
>      kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu
>
 





From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch  Tue Nov 21 08:29:43 1995
From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 09:29:43 +0100
Subject: Hindu numerals and zero
Message-ID: <161227021730.23782.13813010633554876249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I am looking for detailed information on the invention of zero.  Did a
>Jain King in 300 BC ask his court mathematician to count the population in
>his kingdom, and the mathematician say that the numbers 1 thru 9 used at
>that time would not be convenient to add up a large number and invented
>zero.
>
>Also, does anyone have an E-Mail address for the Head, Department of Vedic
>Studies at Banaras Hindu University in India?
>
>                        Thanks
>                        Arun Vohra
>                        ARUN.VOHRA at HQ.DOE.GOV
>
I have written a small article called "A note on zero and the numerical
place-value system in ancient India", that has come out in Asiatische
Studien / Etudes Asiatiques 48(4), 1994, pp. 1039-1042.

Johannes Bronkhorst


 





From vanderk at husc.harvard.edu  Tue Nov 21 16:42:01 1995
From: vanderk at husc.harvard.edu (Leonard Van Der Kuijp)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 11:42:01 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021740.23782.4873876126675207928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Reading through biographies of two Tibetans who had studied in Bihar and 
Nepal in the 1180s and 1190s, I came across titles of two Sanskrit 
grammars which, despite looking into the standard reference works, 
Scharfe, Cardona etc., I am not able to identify. The titles of the texts in 
question are given in the following Tibetan transcription (sans 
diacritics): Rajashri and Vyakaranalamkara. Is there anyone out there who 
could help me out in their identification? An anticipatory many thanks.

Leonard W.J. van der Kuijp
 





From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de  Tue Nov 21 11:45:16 1995
From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 11:45:16 +0000
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021732.23782.1658807274993128550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think we are gradually losing sight of the original issue. If you 
can still bear with it, please, allow me two short remarks on Dominik 
Wujastyk's latest contribution:

> I find it telling that the lines of this argument about WDO's
> translations are drawn -- as far as I can see -- along language
> boundaries.  I think (correct me if I am wrong) that most of those who
> think there is pedagogical value in WDO's translations are native
> speakers of English, while those who like her translations least are
> native speakers of German or other languages. Does this work?  Is it
> relevant?

I don't see any lines drawn along language boundaries. If I'm not 
mistaken, the question of German only came up with reference to 
Geldner's Rigveda translation. At that point we were discussing the 
accuracy of WDO's translation, not its pedagogical value.

 
> Nobody has mentioned WDO's "Textual Sources for the Study of Hinduism"
> (Manchester Univ. Press, 1988) in this discussion.  Again, in my view
> a collection of diverse texts from many periods and genres of Indian
> literature which is very useful for English-speaking students, and
> well-suited for classroom discussion.  Is this book perhaps not very
> well known because of being published in England?
 

This is certainly closer to the issue than "Asceticism and eroticism 
in the mythology of Siva" mentioned in another contribution a few 
days ago. Perhaps someone else can muster enough energy and interest 
to open a discussion on this one. 
By the way, it was also published in the U.S.A.: 

University of Chicago Press 1990. ISBN 0-226-61847-1

Good luck!


Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
37070 Goettingen
Germany
Phone: 0551/395283

 





From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Nov 21 11:40:13 1995
From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 12:40:13 +0100
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021734.23782.15218898089121124170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Max Nihom wrote:
> 
>> I see. Instead of an education, the students are to get advanced cocktail 
>> party training. 
>
>And instead of reasoned arguments, Indology subscribers are to be treated 
>to snide one-liners.
>
>						-Peter D. Banos
>						pdb1 at columbia.edu
> 
>


I quote Mr. Kornman: "More accurate translations are sometimes so hard to 
read. My students need clear, user friendly English and an apparatus which 
deals with their needs" Further: "The students are doing a quick and cursory 
reading and walk away with only the vaguest sense of what they have read".

Now, why is it held that the students need "clear, user friendly English"? 
Why are they doing a "quick and cursory reading and walk away with only the 
vaguest sense of what they have read"? One reason might very well be the 
"clear, user friendly English" which, Mr. Kornman stipulates in the case of 
O'Flaherty's translations, may not be all that accurate. As far as I can 
tell, the point of an introductory survey course is a) to provide accurate 
information and b) to encourage the students to think about the accurate 
information. Whether the information is poured into an entertaining mode is 
utterly secondary. When it is argued that on a university level something 
should be put on a reading list because it is "fun to read", in my opinion a 
snide comment is more than warranted.

There is, moreover, a matter of fundamental principle here. Let us assume 
that subject X is `boring' to the students. If it is so, then it is the 
responsibility of the teacher to make it interesting. It is not permissible 
for the teacher to falsify or to allow X to be falsified on the grounds that 
otherwise the students will not take the course, will not be entertained 
etc. etc. If the purpose of an education is not rigor, then what is left is 
social posturing. 


Max Nihom

 





From pb019 at csc.albany.edu  Tue Nov 21 08:14:45 1995
From: pb019 at csc.albany.edu (pb019 at csc.albany.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 14:14:45 +0600
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021745.23782.2282280807414680955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am trying to find references dealing with the subject of atheism in
Hinduism. Its historical background, dialectics, the present place of the
atheist in Hindu religion compared to some other major religions, and all
that.

Any help is appreciated.

-Partha Banerjee

Dept. of Biology
University at Albany
Albany, New York


 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Tue Nov 21 14:20:42 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 15:20:42 +0100
Subject: Doniger O'Flaherty's translations (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <161227021736.23782.16402858374193430586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Max Nihom wrote:

>Now, why is it held that the students need "clear, user friendly English"?
>Why are they doing a "quick and cursory reading and walk away with only the
>vaguest sense of what they have read"? One reason might very well be the
>"clear, user friendly English" which, Mr. Kornman stipulates in the case of
>O'Flaherty's translations, may not be all that accurate. As far as I can
>tell, the point of an introductory survey course is a) to provide accurate
>information and b) to encourage the students to think about the accurate
>information. Whether the information is poured into an entertaining mode is
>utterly secondary. When it is argued that on a university level something
>should be put on a reading list because it is "fun to read", in my opinion a
>snide comment is more than warranted.

It seems to me that a translator sometimes has to choose between "readable"
and user-friendly English (and loose a few nuances in the process), and
strictly correct, but very unwieldy - and sometimes confusing - English. A
large number of translations from Sanskrit seem to belong to the latter
category. Let us remember that there are at least two kinds of inaccuracy:
syntactical and semantical. WD has been criticized for translating certain
words incorrectly. There is no reason to believe that her translations
would have been less readable if she had translated these words correctly.
But: does this mean that her translations should be discarded altogether?
Any serious student will not rely entirely on one single translation, but
have a look at several. Furthermore, if a subject is being lectured in
class, the person teaching should be able to disentagle the translation
errors done by the translator. For academic purposes, an incorrect
translation may not be so misleading, after all. It is only a problem if it
is used by amateurs who are unaware of the possible errors, and who try to
build some kind of argument on an erronous translation. As for the general
reader, errors in detail may not be such a nuisance, although error-free
translations of course are to be preferred. I think that WD's translations
first and foremost make Sanskrit works available to the general reader, and
that this is more beneficial to our line of scholarship than detrimental.
It may, after all, awaken interest in things South Asian.

>There is, moreover, a matter of fundamental principle here. Let us assume
>that subject X is `boring' to the students. If it is so, then it is the
>responsibility of the teacher to make it interesting. It is not permissible
>for the teacher to falsify or to allow X to be falsified on the grounds that
>otherwise the students will not take the course, will not be entertained
>etc. etc. If the purpose of an education is not rigor, then what is left is
>social posturing.
>

I agree. I cannot see why university studies should be "entertaining". A
university study is a serious endeavour, and students who think that
certain subjects are boring lack the interest or the maturity to study
those subjects. Universities are today - at least in Europe - flooded with
young people who would be out of a job if they were not allowed access to
university studies. This is the politicians' way of "hiding" unemployment.
This also means that university teachers have to deal with a lot of
immature students who perhaps should have been looking for some other kind
of education, or got themselves a job. Many teachers may feel tempted to
"sugar the pill" for those students who feel uncomfortable with difficult
subjects. I think that is the wrong policy. Sound paedagogics is one thing,
selling out cheap is another. Academic life should not make compromises. It
would, in the long run, only hurt the academic process.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From mrabe at artic.edu  Tue Nov 21 20:33:22 1995
From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 15:33:22 -0500
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021747.23782.4494086989787061530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Partha Banerjee said:

I am trying to find references dealing with the subject of atheism in
>Hinduism. Its historical background, dialectics, the present place of the
>atheist in Hindu religion compared to some other major religions, and all
>that.
>
>Any help is appreciated.
>
>-Partha Banerjee
>
>Dept. of Biology
>University at Albany
>Albany, New York
>
Here's a humorous epic reference I happened across this morning:

Ravana's brother, KumbhakarNa, also performed tapas, but misspoke when he
asked for the boon of *nirdevata* (Absence of devas), and ended up instead
with *nidraavatvam* (sleep). cf. Vettam Mani, _Puranic Encyclopaedia_, p.
645.

Michael Rabe
Saint Xavier University
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago


 





From athr at loc.gov  Tue Nov 21 22:02:07 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:02:07 -0500
Subject: Ganesha naamaavali
Message-ID: <161227021749.23782.4172563151514778705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Thrapp,

I don't know anything about the "original source" of the Ganesanamavali, 
but would like to warn about assuming there is one, i.e. that one version 
of the text is more primordial than the other(s).  This can't be assumed 
for all Indian texts.

Yours, 

Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov


On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, . wrote:

> Dear Indologists,
> 
> What is the original source for the 108 names of Ga.nesha?
> There are considerable differences in two popular versions
> of the naamaavali and I would like to find an authoritative
> source.
> 
> Thanks for any information you can provide.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Gary R. Thrapp
> thrapp at nosc.mil
>  
> 
 





From JL6 at soas.ac.uk  Tue Nov 21 17:10:45 1995
From: JL6 at soas.ac.uk (Julia Leslie)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:10:45 +0000
Subject: Self publicity
Message-ID: <161227021743.23782.14174251430106439340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the context of the current discussion of Penguin books, I hesitate 
to mention this, but here goes.

Some of you might be interested to know that my book 'The Perfect 
Wife: The Orthodox Hindu Woman according to the Stridharmapaddhati of 
Tryambakayajvan, previously published by OUP (Delhi 1989) and now out 
of print, has just been re-issued as a Penguin Black Classic. To tell 
you the truth, I am delighted! It's the thought of all those 
potential readers...

Julia Leslie
 





From athr at loc.gov  Tue Nov 21 22:13:16 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:13:16 -0500
Subject: Midnight's Children
Message-ID: <161227021750.23782.3596024054929588400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It seems pretty clear Rushdie is influenced not only by the Indic katha 
tradition but also by the Thousand Nights and a Night.  See the following 
from Robert Irwin, The Arabian Nights: A Companion (London, New York, 
etc.: Allen Lane, The Penguin Press, 1994, p. 289-90:

"Salman Rushdie, asked on the BBC radion programme Desert Island Disks 
what book (apart from the Bible and Shakespeare) he would have with him 
on his island, chose the Nights, but Rushdie has discovered in this, his 
favourite book something different again from what Borges and Barth 
found.  Rushdie's Nights represents an alternative tradition in Islamic 
literature, something to be set against the dour decrees of the mullahs 
of the Middle East and the dictators of the Indian subcontinent.  
References to the Nights abound in all of Rushdie's books. [There follow 
examples from Midnight's Children and the Satanic Verses.] Finally, 
Rushdie's intertextual children's book, Haroun and the Sea of Stories 
(1990), sports with both the Nights and the Ocean of Story...."

(As we can see from the title--AT)

Allen Thrasher
 





From athr at loc.gov  Tue Nov 21 22:20:23 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:20:23 -0500
Subject: St. Petersburg Lexicon in English
Message-ID: <161227021752.23782.3775145931566367925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to a patron's inquiry about the fact that Motilal Banarsidass 
had dropped from its catalog after some years an ad for an English 
version of Boehtlingk and Roth's Sanskrit-Woerterbuch, and a reference to 
the project on this listserve, I asked LC's Delhi 
office to find out from Motilal if they had abandoned the project.  
Motilal replies that they have in fact abandoned it.  

Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov


 





From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de  Tue Nov 21 20:34:02 1995
From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 95 21:34:02 +0100
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021753.23782.2497192394772108842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I am trying to find references dealing with the subject of atheism in
>Hinduism. Its historical background, dialectics, the present place of the
>atheist in Hindu religion compared to some other major religions, and all
>that.
>
>Any help is appreciated.
>
>-Partha Banerjee
>
>Dept. of Biology
>University at Albany
>Albany, New York
>
If you are looking for what are considered as 'atheistic' currents in the 
Indian textual tradition the books by Debiprasad Chattopadhyay are the place 
to look, especially, 
 Lokayata, A Study in Ancient Indian Materialism, Delhi 1959

Also
 D.M Reip, the Naturalistic Tradition in Indian Thought 
contains some discussion of the same variety as found in DC's books. 

However, it is very unclear what you are looking for. 'Hinduism' as a 
religion is a very recent phenomenon - more a  product of European research 
on Indian traditions and practices rather than a religion in the sense in  
which Christianity or Islam can claim to be religions.  Moreover, by 
definition, someone who is an atheist falls outside the pale of religion. If 
you consider Hinduism as religion, then there can't be a place for atheism 
within that fold. 

If you are looking for how 'Hinduism' (used as a wholesale word to subsume 
the whole of non- islamic textual tradition of South Asia) treated 
'atheism', the above books contain useful discussion from a kind of  Marxist 
standpoint. 
Dr. B. Narahari Rao
F.R. 5.1. Philosophie
Unversitaet des Saarlandes,
Postfach 15 11 50,
D-66041 Saarbr?cken

 





From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk  Wed Nov 22 10:58:40 1995
From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 10:58:40 +0000
Subject: Blind Men and the Elephant
Message-ID: <161227021755.23782.7951854529016498116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Rabe writes:

>Can anyone identify the presumptive source in niti or katha literature for
>John Godfrey Saxe's poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant," first published
>in his _Clever Stories of Many Nations_ (Boston, 1865), 61-64?
>
>I had suspected that he invented the premise himself, but recently came
>across an early 19th c. painting on the subject from China. Might it then
>have an East Asian origin?

I haven't read the poem, but presumably the ultimate source is the Pali
Canon (prior to the first century B.C.) where the story of the blind men
and the elephant is told by the Buddha in the Udaana (p. 68f.). I have not
met any earlier source for this, although there are many other Indian
versions of this story after, say, the mid first millennium A.D.

Lance Cousins

MANCHESTER, UK
Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk


 





From ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov  Wed Nov 22 17:39:00 1995
From: ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov (ARUN.VOHRA at hq.doe.gov)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 12:39:00 -0500
Subject: Temporary resignation
Message-ID: <161227021757.23782.3148147090309059955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am leaving for India tomorrow and will be back on December 25.  I am 
temporarily resigning from indology.
 


>?From Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE 22 1995 Nov +0100 19:55:00
Date: 22 Nov 1995 19:55:00 +0100
From: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Subject: Re: Sanskrit grammars
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE

Hello Indology subscribers, hello Leonard,

You wrote about "Sanskrit grammars":

> Reading through biographies of two Tibetans who had studied in Bihar and
> Nepal in the 1180s and 1190s, I came across titles of two Sanskrit
> grammars which, despite looking into the standard reference works,
> Scharfe, Cardona etc., I am not able to identify. The titles of the texts in
> question are given in the following Tibetan transcription (sans
> diacritics): Rajashri and Vyakaranalamkara. Is there anyone out there who
> could help me out in their identification? An anticipatory many thanks.
>
> Leonard W.J. van der Kuijp

Have a look into Pieter C. Verhagen: A history of Sanskrit grammatical  
literature in Tibet. Vol. 1. Leiden 1994, p. 202.

Verhagen points to Bu ston who mentioned Rajasri as an author of a  
grammatical treatise. Verhagen guesses that he - scil. Rajasri - may be  
identical with the author of the Manjusrivyakarana, a grammatical work to  
be found in the Tanjur (op.cit., p. 199 seq.).

He does not mention a Vyakaranalamkara in his index, neither did Aufrecht  
in his Catalogus Catalogorum (the New Catalogus Catalogorum has reached  
"P" so far I know).

A voluminous compendium on the history of vyakaranasastra is Yudhisthir  
Mimamsak's Vyakaran sastra ka itihas (or is it Samskrt vyakaran sastra ka  
itihas ? -- I have it not at hand). Besides fanciful datings for the older  
grammarians this work contains useful data for the later ones. Perhaps  
this may of some help for you. But I fear a comprehensive history of the  
later non-Paninian grammarians has still to be written.

\bye
Peter Wyzlic


 





From athr at loc.gov  Wed Nov 22 19:51:20 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 14:51:20 -0500
Subject: searching for a book...
Message-ID: <161227021760.23782.3111979785556910818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The book Prof. Claus is requesting is probably this one:

     LCCN: 94-906355	
  CALL NO: BL128 .5 .S46 1994
   AUTHOR: Seminar on Saivism (1988 : Srisailam, India)
    TITLE: Saivism : origin, history & thought : proceedings of the 
Seminar on Saivism 
  EDITION: 1st ed.
    PLACE: Hyderabad, [India] :
PUBLISHER: Telugu University,
     YEAR: 1994     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: ix, 419 p. ; 23 cm.
    NOTES: English and Telugu.
           Includes bibliographical references.
  SUBJECT: Saivism -- Congresses.
    OTHER: Thimma Reddy, K.
           Telugu University (Hyderabad, India)
           Proceedings of the Seminar on Saivism.

Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov



On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Peter Claus wrote:

> 
> Does anyone know where I might find a book entitled
> Shaivism, published by Telugu University (Hyderabad).
> Unfortunately, that's all the information I have.
> Peter Claus
>  
> 
 





From athr at loc.gov  Wed Nov 22 20:16:23 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 15:16:23 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries
Message-ID: <161227021762.23782.17076497098361363696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In response to Jonathan Silk's first enquiry, on Kali-puja, if he is 
interested in "descriptions" in the sense of those by an observer, they 
may perhaps be found in the following books. I have not examined them 
myself.  There are also a number of books which are "descriptions" of the 
cult of Kali in the sense of manuals of her worship. 

   AUTHOR: Harding, Elizabeth U., 1943-
    TITLE: Kali :
           the black goddess of Dakshineswar /
    PLACE: York Beach, Me. :
PUBLISHER: Nicolas-Hays,
     YEAR: 1993     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: xxxiii, 318 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 21 cm.
    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. [307]-309) and index.
     ISBN: 0892540257 (alk. paper) :
  SUBJECT: Dakshineswar Kali Temple.
           Kali (Hindu deity)
           Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Dakshineswar.
           Dakshineswar (India) -- Religious life and customs.

   AUTHOR: Raya, Diptimaya.
    TITLE: Pascimabangera Kali o Kalikshetra /
    PLACE: Kalikata :
PUBLISHER: Mandala Buka Hausa,
     YEAR: 1984     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 10, 242, [2] p., [4] p. of plates : ill. ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           Bibliography: p. [243]-[244]
           Socioreligious study of Kali, Hindu goddess, in Bengal; includes 
           notes on her various forms and pilgrimage centers dedicated to 
           the deity.
  SUBJECT: Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Bengal.
           Bengal (India) -- Religion.

   AUTHOR: Haladara, Prabhata.
    TITLE: Srisrikali o Kalikshetra /
    PLACE: Kalikata :
PUBLISHER: Karuna Prakasani,
     YEAR: 1986     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: xvi, 133 p., [2] p. of plates : ill., geneal. tables ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           On the history and religious significance of Kalighata, locality 
           in Calcutta, seat of the temple of Kali (Hindu deity)
  SUBJECT: Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Calcutta.
           Hinduism -- India -- Calcutta.
           Kalighata (Calcutta, India) -- History.
           Calcutta (India) -- History.

   AUTHOR: Nayaka, Datta Damodara.
    TITLE: Kalighata te karunaghata /
    PLACE: Panaji :
PUBLISHER: Rajahasa Vitarana,
     YEAR: 1995     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 80 p. ; 23 cm.
    NOTES: Travel impressions of the author about his visit to various 
           places.
     ISBN: 8185854157
  SUBJECT: Nayaka, Datta Damodara -- Journeys.

   AUTHOR: Basu Roy, Indrani.
    TITLE: Kalighat, its impact on socio-cultural life of Hindus /
    PLACE: New Delhi :
PUBLISHER: Gyan Pub. House,
     YEAR: 1993     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: x, 157 p. : ill., maps ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. [137]-140) and index.
           On an area in Calcutta City, India.
     ISBN: 8121204011 :
  SUBJECT: Kalighat Kali Temple.
           Kalighata (Calcutta, India) -- Religious life and customs.

   AUTHOR: Cattopadhyaya, Suryyakumara.
    TITLE: Kalikshetra dipika /
    PLACE: Kalakata :
PUBLISHER: Pustaka Bipani,
     YEAR: 1986 1891
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 180 p., [3] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.), 1 folded map ; 
           23 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           Originally published: Kalikata : Parthiba Yantrae, 1891.
           Includes bibliographical references.
           History and antiquities of the temple of Kali, Hindu deity, at 
           Kalighat, Calcutta.
  SUBJECT: Kalighata (Temple : Calcutta, India) -- History.
    OTHER: Bhaumika, Haripada.

   AUTHOR: Bagchi, Subhendugopal.


Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov


 
On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote:

> A student has asked me two questions:
> 
> 1)     Are there any published descriptions of Kali-puja in Calcutta,
> especially in recent times?  
> 
> 2)	Are there any summer programs in Bengali, in the US or anywhere
> including India?  How about Hindi / Urdu?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Jonathan Silk
> SIlk at wmich.edu
>  
> 


 





From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov 22 20:53:30 1995
From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 15:53:30 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021764.23782.17344803149487426075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Leonard Van Der Kuijp wrote:

> 
> Reading through biographies of two Tibetans who had studied in Bihar and 
> Nepal in the 1180s and 1190s, I came across titles of two Sanskrit 
> grammars which, despite looking into the standard reference works, 
> Scharfe, Cardona etc., I am not able to identify. The titles of the texts in 
> question are given in the following Tibetan transcription (sans 
> diacritics): Rajashri and Vyakaranalamkara. Is there anyone out there who 
> could help me out in their identification? An anticipatory many thanks.
> 
> Leonard W.J. van der Kuijp
> 

ALl the literature on the aspects of speech (of which the highest 
is para), on which Bhartrhari resorts to  in his Vakya Padiyam, is lost.
We know that Vyadi wrote a big work in a lack of granthas expounding 
Panini; Vasurata (the teacher of Bhartrhari) wrote a digest on the 
original Vyakaranagama (written by Ravana), on which the VP is based (on 
these two, VP II, Comm., 283-286); Bhartrhari wrote himself a commentary 
on the Mahabhasya which served as the basis of the Pradipa (Mahabhasya 
Pradipa, 538). 
I know this is commentarial literature and not alamkara.
But I associated the facts that Bhartrhari is from Northern India; 
according to I-ching he was Buddhist and died around the beginning of the 
VII cent.; his grammatical works and those of his precedessors -- used by 
him for his philosophical speculations -- are lost; according to I-ching 
B. 7 times went to a monastery in order to become  a monk and threfore, 
in the VII century the grammarian Bhartrhari and the poet Bhartrhari were 
considered one person. 
Can all this be a track?

Enrica

 





From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl  Wed Nov 22 19:12:39 1995
From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 20:12:39 +0100
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021759.23782.14122051328434192457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'd like to comment on some statements by dr. Narahari Rao.
   [...] Moreover, by=20
> definition, someone who is an atheist falls outside the pale of religion. If=
> =20
> you consider Hinduism as religion, then there can't be a place for atheism=
> =20
> within that fold.=20
For many, at least some kinds of Buddhism are in fact atheistic.
Confucianism  (at least in some of its phases) seems to be an atheistic
religion too. Of course, you may have your own concept of religion but one
should realise it may not be generally accepted. The notion of God doesn't
seem to be necessary in the definition of religion. Also, some currents of
Indian "orthodox" thought (such astika systems as saam_khya and miimaam_saa)
are often interpreted as atheistic.  

 
> If you are looking for how 'Hinduism' (used as a wholesale word to subsume=
> =20
> the whole of non- islamic textual tradition of South Asia) 
	I don't think many researchers would say Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism,
Parsee religion not to mention natural religions are simply Hinduism. Of course, you have
also Christianity and Judaism exist in (South) India. "South Asia" is even
larger than this country.
			Leslaw Borowski
 





From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de  Wed Nov 22 21:41:43 1995
From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 22:41:43 +0100
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021765.23782.8667422398095926535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Leslaw Borowski wrote:
>For many, at least some kinds of Buddhism are in fact atheistic.
>Confucianism  (at least in some of its phases) seems to be an atheistic
>religion too. Of course, you may have your own concept of religion but one
>should realise it may not be generally accepted. The notion of God doesn't
>seem to be necessary in the definition of religion. Also, some currents of
>Indian "orthodox" thought (such astika systems as saam_khya and miimaam_saa)
>are often interpreted as atheistic.  

Of course different people may define 'religion' differently and then can 
bring even such things as 'Marxism', 'Maoism' etc. under the concept of  
'religion'. But what is at issue is whether practices in China, India and in 
other parts of Asia were considered as 'religions' by those who were 
partcipants of those practices (as  for example, in case of Islam and 
Christianity,). In case of 'Confucianism',  'Buddhism' as well as 'Hinduism' 
the people who are supposed to be espousing them as 'religions' didn't know 
untill European researchers told them that they were practising 'religions'. 
It is interesting to ask, why researchers feel the necessity to call 
practices in China and India as religions. At least in the beginning of 
European contact with India, the travellers did report back that people in 
Malabar coast didnot have religion. This stance changed only later when 
Christian missionaries thought that such a stance would be a theological 
error - note,  not an empirical one, but a theological one. I mentioned in 
my previous note that 'Hinduism' as a religion is more the result of 
European research tradition rather than the understanding derived by a 
participant perspective. Today, of course, there are people in India who 
consider themselves practising 'hinduism' as a religion, but that required a 
mediation of Europen research tradition. 

>> If you are looking for how 'Hinduism' (used as a wholesale word to subsume=
>> =20
>> the whole of non- islamic textual tradition of South Asia) 
>	I don't think many researchers would say Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism,
>Parsee religion not to mention natural religions are simply Hinduism. Of 
course, you have
>also Christianity and Judaism exist in (South) India. "South Asia" is even
>larger than this country.
>			Leslaw Borowski
> 
I didn't use in my previous note the word  'India' because I wanted to avoid 
the reference to political entity called today 'India'. If you think my use 
of  'South Asia' problematic I can withdraw that word without affecting my 
point. I was trying to make the following point: all the terms you have used 
('Buddism', 'Jainism', 'Hinduism', 'Skhism' 'natural  religions' etc.) above 
except that of Christianity and Judaism (perhaps), are more in the nature of 
concepts used by researchers  to identify certain phenomena they were 
interested in, rather than the concepts used by the participants to describe 
their practices. Of course, the present intelligentsia in India, and more 
generally in Asia, have adopted these terms. Yet, even now there are a 
number of people who are considered as beloging to such denominations , but 
who do not  know that they are supposed to be practising such things as 
'Hinduism', 'Confucianism', 'Sikhism' etc. It is  therefore worthwhile to 
remember the role of European research tradition in the creation of 
religions in Asia.  
Dr. B. Narahari Rao
F.R. 5.1. Philosophie
Unversitaet des Saarlandes,
Postfach 15 11 50,
D-66041 Saarbr?cken

 





From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu  Thu Nov 23 06:29:04 1995
From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 00:29:04 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021768.23782.17405779224898291865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a short note on Bhart.rhari -- I-ching's dates have been the subject of
some controversy for quite some time. Judging from the Vaakyapadiyam, and other
facts known about Bhart.rihari, the 5th century is a more likely date for him.
I-ching treats Bhart.rhari as a contemporary of Dharmapaala, which is clearly
wrong, and his synopses of Bhart.rhari's works suggests he was not very
familiar with their contents.

Dan Lusthaus
Macalester College
 





From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU  Thu Nov 23 13:06:45 1995
From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 07:06:45 -0600
Subject: Re Ms. Doniger's translations
Message-ID: <161227021775.23782.12623502710349599613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi:
	I am relatively new to this list and I have followed with interest the
discussions on OFD's translations.  I would like to add my two cent's worth.  
The discussions have centered on accuracy, scholarship, readability,
availability, holding student interest, etc.   However, another aspect, though
alluded to, has not been stressed.   It is the lack of sensitivity on Ms.
Doniger's part to the feelings of the follower's of vaidic religion with her
emphasis on the Freudian concepts such as the one "which begins in Rg Veda and
persists through later Hindu mythology is the idea of primeval incest".(Hindu
Myths, p.25)
	The concept of gods and deities in the Vedas and Puranas is quite
unique.   The vedic gods do not have a material body, they are "ichchaa
ruupinaha", they can assume any form they want.   They are "amaraaha" and
"nirjaraaha", they do not die, nor do they age.   "manushya dharma", the dharma
of the humans does not apply to them.   These points are made clear in
Brihaddevata or in Nirukta, essential readings for any study of the Vedas.
Ms Doniger dismisses these as disclaimers and embarks on her Freudian thesis.
	The human like relationships attributed to gods are only figurative.  
When water vaporizes in to steam, Vayu is born out of Varuna.   But, when vapor
condenses to form clouds and then rain water, it is Varuna who is born out of
Vayu.  When sound emerges from Brahma, Vac or Saraswati is born out of Brahma.  
So, she is his daughter.   The unity of sabda with Brahma is described as the
wedding of Saraswati with Brahma.   This should not be treated as incestual
relationship in human terms.
	Even in modern day parlance such figurative expressions are quite
common.   When the giant corporation, AT&T, is split in to smaller companies,
they are referred to as Ma-Bell's babies.   When two companies merge, many a
time the merger is described as a marriage.  If one of the smaller companies,(a
baby Bell),now merges with AT&T again, would that become an incestual relation?
	Vaidic religion is a living religion.   It is quite offensive for
persons following that religion to see their most revered texts and gods whom
they worship being treated in Freudian terms a la Ms. Doniger,alternate and
more satisfactory explanations not withstanding, all under the garb of
academic scholarship.
	The ease of availability,and readability in simple english of a
particular text should not distract one from the enormous damage done by
propagating erroneous concepts, nor from lack of sensitivity to the feelings
of the followers of the Vaidic religion.
	-B. N. Narahari Achar (acharb at cc.memphis,edu)  
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 10:26:47 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:26:47 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021770.23782.4403887330156949872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


> A voluminous compendium on the history of vyakaranasastra is Yudhisthir  
> Mimamsak's Vyakaran sastra ka itihas (or is it Samskrt vyakaran sastra ka  
> itihas ? -- I have it not at hand).

Mimamsaka's indexes do not list Vyakaranalankara either.

Dominik Wujastyk

 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 10:35:44 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:35:44 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021771.23782.8365319521469136916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU said:

> We know that Vyadi wrote a big work in a lack of granthas expounding 
> Panini;

I argue against this belief in the introduction to volume 2 of my
"Metarules of Paninian Grammar" (Groningen, 1993), pp.xxiv ff..  There
is no evidence linking any Vyadi with the legendary Sangraha until at
least six hundred years after its supposed existence, and I think that
the connection that Bhartrhari makes between Vyadi and a Sangraha is
probably due to his misunderstanding or misreading of the Mahabhasya, or
his excessive reliance on (oral?) traditions linking Vyadi with a
descendent of the Daksa family.

Dominik Wujastyk


 





From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu  Thu Nov 23 18:38:20 1995
From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:38:20 -0800
Subject: searching for a book...
Message-ID: <161227021779.23782.1945994487334793270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the help in locating the book "Saivism".
Peter Claus
 





From garzilli at shore.net  Thu Nov 23 15:42:26 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:42:26 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021778.23782.13347054531781134366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 23 Nov 1995 LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu wrote:

> Just a short note on Bhart.rhari -- I-ching's dates have been the subject of
> some controversy for quite some time. Judging from the Vaakyapadiyam, and other
> facts known about Bhart.rihari, the 5th century is a more likely date for him.
> I-ching treats Bhart.rhari as a contemporary of Dharmapaala, which is clearly
> wrong, and his synopses of Bhart.rhari's works suggests he was not very
> familiar with their contents.
> 
> Dan Lusthaus
> Macalester College

  
Yes, you are right. But the exact date was not so important, I thought, in 
the context of Leonard's question: these two Tibetan monks were much later. 
Also whether Bhartrhari was Buddhist or not has long being debated (J.Takakusu 1896, 
J.Filliozat  1954, H.Nakamura  in JGGRI 28, and D.D. Kosambi, Ingalls etc. 
etc.).
In practice everything, every small dot, on the one/two Bhartrhari has 
been debated. But still.....

EG

******************************************************************************
"Sometimes I sit and think: why these people hate us so bad? I chalk it up 
to two things: jealousy and plain ignorance!" 
******************************************************************************



 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 10:44:14 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:44:14 +0000
Subject: "=20" [was Re: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021773.23782.16418831039223528431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand Venkt Raman said:
> I don't know if other people receive the same format of messages, but
> some of the messages I get have funny characters which show up as
> "=20" on my terminal.  Is it possible to please configure your mail
> software to insert hard returns or line breaks instead?  I am sure
> that many other people on the list would be equally grateful.

Yes indeed.  It is annoying.  It is part of the Mime standard, I
believe, and is called "Quoted-Printable" text.  There is a utility
freely available on the net for undoing all the =20 signs, etc., and
turning the text into proper, clearly readable text.    It is called
mimeqp.zip, and I append a uuencoded version below.  However, although
this is useful for tidying up long messages as separate texts, it is
still not an integrated solution for seamless use with email programs.

Dominik Wujastyk

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M+D-02P$"%``4``(`"``'C:T:/BD'XN at N``"=C```"``````````!``````!$
M*P``34E-12Y46%102P$"%``4``(`"`#;AD$<S"JI:QL"``#-`P``!@``````
H```!``````!26@``4D5!1$U%4$L%!@`````$``0`V````)%<````````
`
end


 





From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Wed Nov 22 22:41:10 1995
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 11:41:10 +1300
Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed
Message-ID: <161227021767.23782.8490133234586581418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Of course different people may define 'religion' differently and then can=20
>bring even such things as 'Marxism', 'Maoism' etc. under the concept of =20
>'religion'. But what is at issue is whether practices in China, India and in=

I don't know if other people receive the same format of messages, but
some of the messages I get have funny characters which show up as
"=20" on my terminal.  Is it possible to please configure your mail
software to insert hard returns or line breaks instead?  I am sure
that many other people on the list would be equally grateful.

Many thanks.

- &
-- 
Anand Venkt Raman                 Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h)
Dept of Computer Science          Fx: +64-6-350-5611
http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman
 





From prasanna at tesla.mayo.EDU  Thu Nov 23 18:08:15 1995
From: prasanna at tesla.mayo.EDU (prasanna at tesla.mayo.EDU)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 12:08:15 -0600
Subject: atheism ...
Message-ID: <161227021781.23782.17299451728605852790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

	In the spirit of atheism, guru O'Flowery; and here in USA
on the eve of the biggest and best shopping season of the year,
I am reminded of the precept by the old sage Charvak:
"rinam kritva ghritam pivet
 javat jivet
 sukham jivet"
which essentially exhorted one to borrow to live the good life.

        Well, be good and well,

---------------------------------------------------------------------
	 Prasanna K. Mishra 	mishra at mayo.edu 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 





From MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 13:39:56 1995
From: MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk (MILESM at ibm3090.computer-centre.birmingham.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 13:39:56 +0000
Subject: O'FLOWERY  AND  THE PEDANTICS  (transl.)
Message-ID: <161227021776.23782.4494731446430346604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following is a draft translation of a Gendered Legend from the early
Third Millenium of the so-called Common Era. Some detail has been obscured by
system incompatibility in transmission from those far-off times, yet it is
hoped that the main outline will be of interest to historians.  It is thought
possibly to have originated in a dream-sequence of the displaced writer
Soloman Rashid, while he served his life-sentence for antipedantic activities.

****************************
O'FLOWERY AND THE PEDANTICS
****************************

In the Dark Times before the Siliconyuga dawned, there lived a banned person,
the lefthanded female guru O'Flowery. She sang and danced the cosmic orgasm
of the greater and lesser spheres. She caused sweet-smelling emanations to be
wafted abroad. She encouraged her female students to ask questions until
their heads dropped off.

(NOTE:  One of these students, Ms G. Argi, PhD,  later achieved immortality
by releasing the entire Saga of Greater Bharat in cartoon strip on the
InterMesh, the primitive electronic system by which scholars used to
communicate towards the end of the Dark Times)

Great was the wrath of the Twenty Tenuredrishis at the Institute of Pedantic
Studies, whose religious exercises in the depths of the academic jungle were
disturbed by the distant song of the banned guru O'Flowery and her retinue of
performing penguins.

Emaciated with long fasting, and standing upon one leg to achieve a smaller
satellite broadcast footprint  (NOTE: Possible reading; text unclear),  the
affronted Tenuredrishis deliberated together for seven solemn semesters. Then
they issued a decree that henceforth there could be no enrolment to study the
Pedanta unless the candidate possessed a recognised phallus and had passed
fourteen years of supervised meditation in the footnotes of German philology.

But the irrepressible O'Flowery immediately mounted upon her psychedelic
aerial vehicle  and flew with immeasurable speed to the abode of the Four-
Eyed Founder of Emesdos, the Excellent Mahageek Bil-Gatesh.  Delectable
consultations took place at the many-windowed palace of the Mahageek Bil-
Gatesh, who deigned to accept a suitable offering of chocolate-coated
penguins from the doe-eyed O'Flowery.

With an unprecedented display of heptium-energy, the all-seeing Bil-Gatesh
instantaneously scanned into his memory the entire Pedantacorpus, together
with every known and unknown footnote, endnote, handnote and banknote. Then
from each window of the universal memory of Mahageek Bil-Gatesh, instant
access to the Pedantacorpus billowed forth to fill the farthest reaches of
the Omniversity.

Whereas in the Dark Times, 14 crore years of studies were required to store
and access every syllable, now as the Siliconyuga dawned it became possible
for any female student to summon undifferentiated giganotes on all possible
topics in 14 nanoseconds  (NOTE: benchtest by Pedantelecton Weekly).

Thus did Bil-Gatesh, aided by the incomparable O'Flowery, destroy the power
of the Venerable Keepers Of The Pedanta, by declassifying and electronising
their hidden personal memorybanks. The Venerable Keepers were rapidly ushered
away to the abode of Yamaha, where rats gnawed at their battery cells for
incalculable aeons.

***************************

(Draft preprint translation by M.Miles from a text discovered in the Cocktail
Party Hall of MacDonalds Fastburger University. Official version awaits
endorsement by the Intergalactic Women Scholars Foundation Cream).










 





From yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp  Thu Nov 23 23:45:31 1995
From: yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 08:45:31 +0900
Subject: wanted Brhartsahita
Message-ID: <161227021782.23782.16423268961686697375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please ftp to ccftp.kyoto-su.ac.jp
at the directory
pub/doc/sanskrit

Michio YANO
..
 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Fri Nov 24 13:53:07 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 14:53:07 +0100
Subject: Re Ms. Doniger's translations
Message-ID: <161227021784.23782.1582868814133867761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

B. N. Narahari Achar wrote:

       The concept of gods and deities in the Vedas and Puranas is quite
>unique.   The vedic gods do not have a material body, they are "ichchaa
>ruupinaha", they can assume any form they want.   They are "amaraaha" and
>"nirjaraaha", they do not die, nor do they age.   "manushya dharma", the dharma
>of the humans does not apply to them.   These points are made clear in
>Brihaddevata or in Nirukta, essential readings for any study of the Vedas.
>Ms Doniger dismisses these as disclaimers and embarks on her Freudian thesis.

I am afraid that the concept of gods and deities in Vedas is not quite as
unique as it is assumed here. Most of the qualities cited are part and
parcel of all ancient Indo-European mythologies. E.g. both ancient Greek
and Nordic gods can change into any shape they want, and do so frequently.

>        The human like relationships attributed to gods are only figurative.
>When water vaporizes in to steam, Vayu is born out of Varuna.   But, when vapor
>condenses to form clouds and then rain water, it is Varuna who is born out of
>Vayu.  When sound emerges from Brahma, Vac or Saraswati is born out of Brahma.
>
>So, she is his daughter.   The unity of sabda with Brahma is described as the
>wedding of Saraswati with Brahma.   This should not be treated as incestual
>relationship in human terms.

It seems hard to interpret Rudra's arrow against Prajapati as anything but
a punishment for a real offense. I should think that the strictly symbolic
interpretation of Vedic mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of
thinking.

>        Vaidic religion is a living religion.   It is quite offensive for
>persons following that religion to see their most revered texts and gods whom
>they worship being treated in Freudian terms a la Ms. Doniger,alternate and
>more satisfactory explanations not withstanding, all under the garb of
>academic scholarship.

There has for the last two hundred years been an almost constant conflict
between science/scholarship on the one hand and religion on the other. The
annoyance expressed by Mr. Achab has also been expressed by e.g. Christian
theologians, who had to see their most revered truths analysed in the same
kind of scholarly language, not necessarily Freudian, but nevertheless
offensive to them. We live in a world with free speech, and the right to
analyse and criticize ideologies and religions is a part of the Western
academic culture. This does not necessarily mean that the analyses or
criticisms are correct and fair, but the freedom to make them is as
fundamental as the freedom of people to worship God according to their own
ideas. Personally, I find many religions ideas offensive, but I don't
complain about other people expressing them as long as I may express my own
ideas. We simply have to live with the fact that people have a right to
express their view, whether we feel hurt or not. People who feel secure
about their beliefs usually can take quite a bit of criticism or irreverent
language without getting too upset.


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse





Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Sat Nov 25 05:08:35 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 21:08:35 -0800
Subject: Rushdie and Classical Skt Lit
Message-ID: <161227021785.23782.2051796971271133099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the context of the recent discussion regarding Rushdie's connection with
early Indian literature, note: 

Vidyut Aklujkar. 1993. "Haroun and the Sea of Stories : Metamorphosis of an
old Metaphor   in Commonwealth Novel in English, Vol. 6 Numbers 1 & 2,
Spring  & Fall.  pp. 1-12. Bluefield State College, West Virginia. 
[An earlier version of the paper was read at the 201st meeting of the
American Oriental Society at The University of California, Berkley, on
March 5, 1991. ]

 





From wagers at computek.net  Sat Nov 25 11:01:02 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 05:01:02 -0600
Subject: Anyone know Abtala Jurain ?
Message-ID: <161227021787.23782.5562089198284852445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Is anyone familiar with the work  _Abtala Jurain_, 1732 referred to in
Jung, _Psy. and Alch._, pp 231-2)?

Is it available it English?

Thx, Will


 





From wagers at computek.net  Sat Nov 25 11:56:12 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 05:56:12 -0600
Subject: CFV for SCI.PHILOSOPHY.NATURAL Moderated
Message-ID: <161227021788.23782.11884814331933006637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


The first call for votes (CFV) for the moderated group
sci.philosophy.natural has been posted in news.groups.

HOW TO VOTE

Just call up the CFV in news.groups, delete everything but the
ballot, type your name and your vote, and forward it to the
votetaker.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 12 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about
the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Will Wagers <wagers at computek.net>
Mentor:  Mark James <jamesm at dialogic.com>
Votetaker: David Bostwick
<david.bostwick at chemistry.gatech.edu>

RATIONALE: sci.philosophy.natural

sci.philosophy.natural will meet a long-standing demand for a moderated
newsgroup for the scholarly discussion of and publications on ancient
natural philosophy (science) without flames and without unfounded
'speculative' postings. The proposed newsgroup would not replace any
existing groups. There is a small overlap with *many* existing newsgroups
and mailing lists in that subjects appropriate to sci.philosophy.natural
are occasionally discussed there. One purpose of sci.philosophy.natural is
to bring these discussions under one roof to facilitate interdisciplinary
scholarship. In some cases, this may result in offloading some traffic from
high volume newsgroups and mailing lists. It would still leave any and all
posters the forums that currently exist, so there is no question of denying
anyone an outlet for their ideas. The small number of newsgroups and
mailing lists which regularly deal with topics appropriate to
sci.philosophy.natural may regard the proposed newsgroup as a means of
publishing finished articles after the rounds of specialist comment and
criticism have occurred.

Thanks for your participation. This notice has been cross-posted. My apologies
if you encounter it on more than one list.

Wishing you all had a great Thanksgiving !
(wish void where impolitic, inopportune, or otherwise inadvisable)

Will


 





From garzilli at shore.net  Sat Nov 25 17:19:37 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 12:19:37 -0500
Subject: Sanscrit Font
Message-ID: <161227021792.23782.7150763106042293841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 25 Nov 1995 echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote:

> Does anyone of you know where to get a sanscrit fonr for the Mac?
> Ulrich
>  
> Urich Windisch,Berlin
> 
In our ftp server you can find fonts for Macintosh and for Windows 
with diacritics for devanagari.
We are adding the fonts with the devanagari alphabet.

ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india
or better
http://www.shore.net/~india/ 
 

Enrica Garzilli, Cambridge



 





From clay at m-net.arbornet.org  Sat Nov 25 20:13:53 1995
From: clay at m-net.arbornet.org (clay at m-net.arbornet.org)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 15:13:53 -0500
Subject: Sanscrit Font...
Message-ID: <161227021799.23782.18057224455023823224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



> Dear Collegues,
> Does anyone of you know where to get a sanscrit fonr for the Mac?
> Ulrich
> 
> 
Dear Urich Windisch: I have been using ,for several years now, a
software product for Sanskrt fonts developed by "Ecological
Linguistics". They have a substantial list of fonts for the
Indian and South Asian alphabets designed to be used by the mac.
I use what they call DevanagariExtended along with IndicTimes;
the first converts your keyboard into devanagari and the second
is the roman equivalent. Its a very good product and the 
company stands behind their work.The snail mail address is
Ecological Linguistics,PO BOX 15156,Washington ,DC 20003
Phone: 1-202-546-5862 I do do not have their email address but 
it has been mentioned on the Indology -L recently. Maybe someone
else can provide the email. 
Yes, it interfaces with "word" wordprocessing for mac!Salutations, jim

> Urich Windisch,Berlin
> 
> 
>  
> 


-- 
James H. Cuddeback, clay at m-net.arbornet.org  Phone: 1-517-332-6283
Address:1379 Burcham, East Lansing, Michigan 48823 
Remembrance Memorials and Urns: http://m-net.arbornet.org:80/~clay
==================================================================
 





From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de  Sat Nov 25 16:48:34 1995
From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 15:48:34 -0100
Subject: Sanscrit Font
Message-ID: <161227021790.23782.6402149247798366250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Collegues,
Does anyone of you know where to get a sanscrit fonr for the Mac?
Ulrich



Urich Windisch,Berlin


 





From garzilli at shore.net  Sat Nov 25 21:44:45 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 16:44:45 -0500
Subject: CALL FOR VOTE
Message-ID: <161227021808.23782.9036836603613071866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Will Wagers wrote:
> 
> The first call for votes (CFV) for the moderated group
> sci.philosophy.natural has been posted in news.groups.
> 
> HOW TO VOTE
 
It is extremely impolite and against the netiquette to post a "HOW TO 
VOTE" for a newsgroup in a mailing list.
There are newsgroups ONLY for that purpose. 
Usenet is democratic and free = everybody can partecipate but should 
respect certain rules.
BTW, Will Wagers filled up many times my inbox in this list with empty 
msgs, as well as personal msgs, re his projects. After trying many times to 
open a mailing list at the biggest US Universities (for the name, and to 
use it for nothing, otherwise there are commercial providers wich most of 
us use) this person decides to use Usenet against the recognised rules. 
I write in this list because I receive from it many long and improper msgs 
with no link at all with Indology (such as: CALL FOR VOTE).

Dott. Enrica Garzilli

to know more about "User Guidelines and Netiquette", see
http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/net/index.htm


 





From wagers at computek.net  Sat Nov 25 23:19:35 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 17:19:35 -0600
Subject: Dott. Enrica Garzilli's Complaint
Message-ID: <161227021806.23782.9011265726015431812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


While it is my custom to attempt to settle differences such as this
complaint in private, Dott. Enrica Garzilli has chosen to involve the list,
so I must respond on the list. I apologize for subjecting the list members
to this dispute.

Dott. Enrica Garzilli writes:

>It is extremely impolite and against the netiquette to post a "HOW TO
>VOTE" for a newsgroup in a mailing list.
>There are newsgroups ONLY for that purpose.
>Usenet is democratic and free = everybody can partecipate but should
>respect certain rules.

As you probably know, Calls for Votes (CFVs) contain a section for
automated distribution to mailing lists. Because of the difficulties of
automatically posting to mailing lists from the original CFV, I was advised
by my votetaker that, instead, I should post notices of the CFV to the
relevant mailing lists. This is what I have done. (BTW: the
automatically-posted notices are much longer, including the complete CFV.)
In addition, I have been following the steps taken by a successful
newsgroup proposal, against which there were no complaints.

>BTW, Will Wagers filled up many times my inbox in this list with empty
>msgs, as well as personal msgs, re his projects.

I corresponded, as I recall, on one day with Dott. Enrica Garzilli when
looking for a host for a mailing list. The correspondence would have
consisted of a single, brief enquiry from me, but Dott. Enrica Garzilli
kept insisting for more information from me (while bringing me up to date
on netiquette). Most people handle requests for advice or help with respect
and graciousness. I handle quite a few myself each week. It is one of the
main functions of UseNet. Posts regarding my newsgroup project are personal
in the sense that I am promoting it; however, they are intended to benefit
scholars and scientists from many fields.

>After trying many times to
>open a mailing list at the biggest US Universities (for the name, and to
>use it for nothing, otherwise there are commercial providers wich most of
>us use) this person decides to use Usenet against the recognised rules.

I fail to see what this has to do with the other. I am especially puzzled
by this complaint, as Dott. Enrica Garzilli has only recently (21 Nov 1995)
offered to co-own the list in question with me. I have no university
connection, at present; therefore, I have been seeking a home for a mailing
list. I have seen two other such requests in the past month. This is in no
way improper, and many people have been both sympathetic and helpful. I
may, in the end, decide to use a commercial provider.

Incidentally, I consider it a violation of confidence to publicize private
communications.

>I write in this list because I receive from it many long and improper msgs
>with no link at all with Indology (such as: CALL FOR VOTE).

The postings in question relate to a proposed newsgroup for the study of
and publications on Ancient Science. Indian science is very much related to
this topic. And, the contributions of Sanskrit scholars, historians of
Indian science, Indian scientists, as well as experts in Indian philosophy
and theology are critical to the success of the group.

I quote the material sent to me upon subscribing to INDOLOGY:

        "INDOLOGY was started in 1990 as a forum for Sanskritists, MIA and NIA
        language specialists, Dravidologists, historians, and others interested
        in any aspect of Indological studies. That includes other languages, of
        course, and anything related. It's not restricted, except that
        discussions about contemporary politics and social issues are better
        carried out on soc.culture.india and other forums like that."

I find nothing here which would deem my postings improper, quite the contrary.

Having made my point, I am perfectly willing to discuss off-list any
suggestions anyone may have for improving communication with the list.
Although there seems to be a bit of a personality clash between Dott.
Enrica Garzilli and myself, I am also willing to work with Dott. Enrica
Garzilli in whatever way might be beneficial.

Sincerely,

Will


 


>?From Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE 26 1995 Nov +0100 00:45:00
Date: 26 Nov 1995 00:45:00 +0100
From: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Subject: Re: Sanscrit Font
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE

Hello Echnaton,

You wrote on 25.11.95 about "Sanscrit Font":

> Dear Collegues,
> Does anyone of you know where to get a sanscrit fonr for the Mac?
> Ulrich

Linguist Software - for example - provides TrueType and PS fonts for  
Macintosh and Windows/OS2 PCs (this is a commercial company, of  
course). I never used one of them so I can copy only the advertisement  
I have at hand.

They have a package called "LaserHindi Sanskrit": "TrueType(tm) and  
ATM-compatible Type-1 HindiSanskrit fonts. Keyboard Switcher assists  
typing consonants, conjuncts, and vowels. $99.95." It consists of a  
Devanagari set in both TT and Type-1. Some years (1992 or 93) ago I  
saw a printed specimen typeset with this Nagari. I must confess - at  
least in my opinion - it was not so elegant as the font for TeX  
created by F. Velthuis. So I voted for the last one.

Besides Nagari Linguist Software has also packages called  
"LaserGujarati", "LaserPanjabi", "LaserTamil", "TransIndic  
Transliterator" and as forthcoming "LaserSindhi".

Whoever of you Indology subscribers has used or uses one of these  
please let us know your experience(s) with them.

Perhaps, a look around public fileservers will do the same. Once I saw  
on Compu$erve's Foreign Language Forum a Mac Nagari font.

\bye
Peter Wyzlic

 





From B.Loturco at agora.stm.it  Sat Nov 25 18:19:00 1995
From: B.Loturco at agora.stm.it (B.Loturco at agora.stm.it)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 18:19:00 +0000
Subject: Peter Thomi
Message-ID: <161227021793.23782.16196951622397361490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have the address of Peter Thomi, author of works about the

Yogavasistha?
Many thanks

Bruno Lo Turco
b.loturco at agora.stm.it

 --- MMMR v4.00reg

 





From magier at columbia.edu  Sun Nov 26 12:42:14 1995
From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 95 07:42:14 -0500
Subject: Int'l Directory of Scholars
Message-ID: <161227021801.23782.7058500869969720341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(Because there are so many new members of the Indology list, I am
reposting this notice. Apologies if you've seen this before. David
Magier)

Dear South Asia scholars,
I am writing to inform you about The International Directory of South
Asia Scholars, and to invite you to join hundreds of your colleagues
from around the world who have detailed listings in this free global
database of scholars. For your information, I append below a
description of the Directory, including a blank form you can use, if
you wish, to submit your own entry to be included in the Directory
(which you can send back to me by email - magier at columbia.edu). Please
let me know if you have any questions or comments or suggestions about
the Directory, or about The South Asia Gopher, through which it is made
accesssible over the internet.  Thank you.
David Magier
magier at columbia.edu

=====================================================================
                     THE INTERNATIONAL DIRECTORY
                                 of
                        SOUTH ASIA SCHOLARS

The International Directory of South Asia Scholars is a free, publicly
available online database of South Asianists from around the world. This
service is being provided by Columbia University through The South Asia
Gopher, and is compiled and maintained by Dr. David Magier. 

The database contains records of individuals who have identified
themselves as being involved in South Asian studies. Each record,
submitted by the person listed, contains the name, title, affiliation,
contact information (generally mail address, phones, FAX, and full email
address), and a short statement of the person's activities, teaching
and/or research interests, specializations, etc. in the area of South
Asian Studies. The entries are free-form text, and one may include any
information in any format that seems useful and informative. The database
is indexed so that anyone can do a search to locate the record for a
particular individual, or one can do a keyword search to find, for
example, a list of all the South Asianists located in a given country or
city, or all the scholars who are working on a given language or subject
or region, etc. For example, a keyword search using the terms "Prakrit"
or "Punjabi" will retrieve a listing of all the scholars whose entries 
contain these words. 

It is very easy to have your entry included in this database, so that 
your colleagues from around the world will know who you are and what you 
are working on and interested in. Experience shows that this type of tool 
is very helpful in developing new human networks and cooperative research 
and teaching ventures, getting answers to particular factual queries, and 
fostering the 'cross-fertilization' of ideas. We would like to invite you 
to submit an entry so that our database will be as comprehensive and 
useful as possible. 

To submit an entry for yourself (or for someone else), please fill out 
the form below and return it BY EMAIL to magier at columbia.edu
or by post to: 

Dr. David Magier
South Asia Librarian
304 International Affairs
Columbia University
420 West 118th Street
New York, N.Y. 10027
212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-3834

Your description of your work and research or teaching interests should
contain as much information as possible to allow people to identify you
and your work, and to 'find' you through typical keyword searches
(languages, countries or regions, fields and sub-disciplines, ethnic or
political groups, etc.).  Please feel free to contact Dr. Magier if you
have questions about the Directory or need advice on the best way to
construct your entry.

-------------ENTRY FORM-------CUT HERE------------------------------

Name _______________________________________________________________

Title_______________________________________________________________

Institutional Affiliation___________________________________________

Mailing Address_____________________________________________________
                           
____________________________________________________________________
                           
____________________________________________________________________

Phones______________________________________________________________

FAX ________________________________________________________________

full email address__________________________________________________

DESCRIPTION OF YOUR WORK
(include your research/teaching interests, and all relevant keywords such
as languages, countries, regions, disciplines and sub-disciplines, ethnic,
religious or political goupings, historical periods, etc. Keep in mind
that others will use 'keyword searches' to find your listing if they don't
know you by name). 

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________

return this info by email to: magier at columbia.edu
or by post to: 	              David Magier, South Asia Librarian
                              304 International Affairs
                              Columbia University
                              420 West 118th Street
                              New York, N.Y. 10027  USA
212-854-8046
FAX: 212-854-3834
 





From ACHARB at msuvx2.memphis.edu  Sun Nov 26 17:33:59 1995
From: ACHARB at msuvx2.memphis.edu (ACHARB at msuvx2.memphis.edu)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 95 11:33:59 -0600
Subject: Re Ms. Doniger's translations
Message-ID: <161227021805.23782.10683086975047637155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From:	IN%"indology at liverpool.ac.uk" 24-NOV-1995 08:17:38.29
>Subj:	RE: Re Ms. Doniger's translations.

>Lars Martin Fossee wrote

>I am afraid that the concept of gods and deities in Vedas is not quite as
>unique as it is assumed here. Most of the qualities cited are part and
>parcel of all ancient Indo-European mythologies. E.g. both ancient Greek
>and Nordic gods can change into any shape they want, and do so frequently.
>
I am sure there are differences with respect to applicability of "manushya
dharma" to gods.  Perhaps, somebody else can clarify.
>
>It seems hard to interpret Rudra's arrow against Prajapati as anything but
>a punishment for a real offense. I should think that the strictly symbolic
>interpretation of Vedic mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of
>thinking.
>
one aspect of Rudra is the personification of anger, hence "raudraavatara".
Daksha(prajapati) also means Ritual-skill.  The symbolic meaning here is that
rituals performed without observing proper protocol could lead to disastrous
reasults.   Since Yaska says that "manushya dharma" does not apply to gods,
when human like relationships are described, they can only be symbolic.   I see
nothing "modern" about it

>
>annoyance.. has also been expressed by e.g. Christian
>theologians, who had to see their most revered truths analysed in the same
>kind of scholarly language, not necessarily Freudian, but nevertheless
>
That is the whole point, freedom of speech not withstanding.
>
> Personally, I find many religions ideas offensive, but I don't
>complain about other people expressing them as long as I may express my own
>ideas. We simply have to live with the fact that people have a right to
>express their view, whether we feel hurt or not. People who feel secure
>about their beliefs usually can take quite a bit of criticism or irreverent
>language without getting too upset.
>
>
yes, if it were only that.  The academic criticisms would have been just like
"the dog barking at the full moon".  But, now misrepresentations such as those
of Ms. Doniger, in the hands of persons like Pat Robertson is propagated to
millions of believing people.   That is the cause of the hurt.

Best regards,-Narahari 
 





From oome at midway.uchicago.edu  Mon Nov 27 20:03:27 1995
From: oome at midway.uchicago.edu (Milton Eder)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 14:03:27 -0600
Subject: "=20"
Message-ID: <161227021795.23782.18256664689742308146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


To remove the end of line markers from the files being sent over the
Internet --

IBM users:

Save as ASCII files and then send.

MAC users:

When you save choose something like DOS text file of PC format.
 





From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA  Mon Nov 27 21:50:09 1995
From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 15:50:09 -0600
Subject: New URL address
Message-ID: <161227021803.23782.8344447509510029051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Asian Studies Centre's URL here has been changed. It is now:
	http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies

Those of you who have been kind enough to link with us, would you please 
update your link. Thank you very much. The latest update to our web site 
was in the middle of October, just before our 3-week strike. 

Indologically inclined, 
Bob Hueckstedt

Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages
Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca
fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797

 


>?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 27 95 Nov EST 16:57:05
Date: 27 Nov 95 16:57:05 EST
From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com>
Subject: O'FLOWERY

Thank you for contributing some human humor! The discussion was very dry indeed.
I also enjoyed the cocktail party joke. Anything wrong with being less serious?
Is it necessary that the academic world is dry and inaccessible?  What about a
lush garden with juicy plants and beautiful flowers? Errare humanum est, and
smiling too is human.
Thank you for all your wonderful and honest contributions.
Hans-Georg Turstig

 





From francois at sas.ac.uk  Mon Nov 27 15:53:17 1995
From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 15:53:17 +0000
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021810.23782.154592853680317968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,


I work at the Warburg Institute Library and I am very keen to strenghten
our holdings related to East-West relationships up to about 1700. 
For this purpose I wonder if anyone on this list could suggest the name 
and address of some reliable Indian booksellers from whom I could obtain
lists of recent publications. 

		Many thanks in advance.

		Francois Quiviger
		University of London
		Warburg Institute
		Woburn Square
		London WC1H OAB


P.S. Do you know the Indology list? If not, I can send you the address.

 





From francois at sas.ac.uk  Mon Nov 27 17:33:58 1995
From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 17:33:58 +0000
Subject: Booksellers, Post Scriptum
Message-ID: <161227021797.23782.5356951251990056865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


The last line of my query on booksellers came from another file sent to a 
private address. Sorry.

					Francois Quiviger
 





From apandey at u.washington.edu  Tue Nov 28 05:57:31 1995
From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 21:57:31 -0800
Subject: Trouble with devnag Metafont.
Message-ID: <161227021813.23782.8655649378106605812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I hope this isn't too off topic, I didn't know where else I could have 
turned, and I presume that some of you have experimented with Frans 
Velthuis's devnag package and would be able to offer me some assistance.

As I am running a 486 PC I have chosen to run emTeX and have successfully 
installed it. I have also installed ITrans and that, too, was successful. 
The trouble arises when I attempt to process the ITrans output TeX file 
with laTeX2e. I receive an error message:

    !Font \devnf=dnh at 15.0pt not located: Metric (TFM) font not found.

Apparently, I have not installed the devnag package correctly. Does 
anyone know how? In the README file included with the package, Velthuis 
suggests that the files in the PK300 directory be copied to the 
appropriate directories in the \TEXFONTS directory. This I have done, yet 
the errors still plague my every attempt.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again, and sorry for the off-topic bandwidth.

Anshuman Pandey


 





From navrang at bev.net  Tue Nov 28 01:55:52 1995
From: navrang at bev.net (Manisha Singal)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 06:55:52 +0500
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021818.23782.7251543404141444091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



At 04:27 AM 11/28/95 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear Indologists,
>
>
>I work at the Warburg Institute Library and I am very keen to strenghten
>our holdings related to East-West relationships up to about 1700. 
>For this purpose I wonder if anyone on this list could suggest the name 
>and address of some reliable Indian booksellers from whom I could obtain
>lists of recent publications. 
>
>		Many thanks in advance.
>
>		Francois Quiviger
>		University of London
>		Warburg Institute
>		Woburn Square
>		London WC1H OAB
>


Hi!
  Please visit our home page at http://www.navrang.com/navrang.  We can
supply any books from India.
Manisha
****************************************************************************
******
Navrang Inc.,  Post Box 10056, 
Blacksburg, VA 24062-0056.
e-mail: navrang at bev.net (Anytime) 
phone: (540) 961-2003 (Someone may reply)
fax:     (540) 961-4007 (Anytime)
WWW: http://www.navrang.com/navrang

INDIAN BOOKS - any Indian publications
INDIAN MAGAZINES - inexpensive and assured supply
AMERICAN MAGAZINES - at prices you won't believe


 





From krisna at cs.wisc.edu  Tue Nov 28 15:56:32 1995
From: krisna at cs.wisc.edu (krisna at cs.wisc.edu)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 09:56:32 -0600
Subject: Request for comments: Informal extended abstract
Message-ID: <161227021823.23782.14733429135272859249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand Venkt Raman writes:
:
: [ deletions ]
:
: It is a novel and modern :-) solution to the problem Sankara faced
: when asked how a singular soul could undergo rebirth because of its
: actions towards other(?) souls.
:
: [ deletions ]
:


A much simpler and, certainly, a much more scientific and
rational solution is to realize that words like "soul", "karma",
"rebirth", "Atman", "Maya" etc. are vague/meaningless (and quite
irrelevant to anyone with more than a minimal knowledge of
physics and biology).  After all, no one has yet produced
scientific evidence for the existence of any of the above (and it
is unlikely that anyone ever will).

I have seen many Christian apologists make colossal fools of
themselves in their pathetic attempts to reconcile contradictions
in the bible.  There is no point or hope in trying to provide
justifications for falsehoods and irrational ideas.

I am sure that there are better ways to occupy one's brain cells
than attempt apologetics of totally flawed theories.

Please note that I am not saying that one should not study
Sankara's opinions.  However, I _am_ saying that one should not
attempt to "prove" him right, because he quite clearly was not.
All that can be objectively done is to discuss Sankara vis-a-vis
other philosophers holding equally muddled ideas.

--Krishna
 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Tue Nov 28 10:11:26 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 10:11:26 +0000
Subject: Trouble with devnag Metafont.
Message-ID: <161227021816.23782.8341367607304932965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The error message you are getting from TeX is about TFM (TeX Font
Metric) files, not bitmaps (PK).  TeX doesn't care about actual bitmaps:
all it looks at are the measurements of the characters, contained in the
TFMs.  (When you try to view or print the DVI output from TeX, the
viewing or printing program has the messy job of finding the right
bitmaps to display the document.)

So your TeX can't find dnh.tfm.

I have never used ITRANS with TeX (can't see the point), so I'm afraid I
can't help further.  I do have an em-TeX-ized version of the Velthuis
Devanagari system; i.e., a zip file you can just unpack straight into
the \emtex directory system.  I'll make it available from the INDOLOGY
supplementary Gopher later today.

Dominik



-- 

Dominik Wujastyk,
Wellcome Institute,
183 Euston Road,
London NW1 2BE.

FAX: +44 171 611 8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk

For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html

 





From strnad at site.cas.cz  Tue Nov 28 08:42:35 1995
From: strnad at site.cas.cz (Jaroslav Strnad)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 10:42:35 +0200
Subject: Ecological Linguistics
Message-ID: <161227021815.23782.12507938463699103827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The e-mail address of Ecological Linguistics is: ecoling at aol.com.

_____________________________
Jaroslav Strnad
Oriental Institute
Czech Academy of Sciences
Pod vodarenskou vezi 4
182 08 Praha 8
CZECH REPUBLIC
e-mail: strnad at orient.cas.cz
______________________________
 





From athr at loc.gov  Tue Nov 28 16:59:28 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 11:59:28 -0500
Subject: Anyone know Abtala Jurain ?
Message-ID: <161227021824.23782.18160234364815162646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

OCLC shows this title in the Wellcome Institute, London and the 
Andersonian Library, University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, Scotland.

OCLC No. 18239942
Jurain, Abtala.
Abtala Jurain Filii Jacob Juran Hyle und Coahyl/ aus dem Aethiopischen 
ins Lateinische, und aus Lateinischen in das teutsche tralatiret und 
ubergesetzet durch Johann Elias Muller ...
Hamburg: [s.n.] : c 1732

I am unable to trace the original title further and thus to say whether 
there is an English version somewhere.  


Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov



On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Will Wagers wrote:

> 
> Is anyone familiar with the work  _Abtala Jurain_, 1732 referred to in
> Jung, _Psy. and Alch._, pp 231-2)?
> 
> Is it available it English?
> 
> Thx, Will
> 
> 
>  
> 

 





From bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu  Tue Nov 28 20:42:56 1995
From: bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu (B. Hatcher)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 14:42:56 -0600
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021826.23782.3523102899422729877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In a short paper on Indian Buddhism one of my students quoted the 
following words, which she identified as a 'Sanskrit Proverb' (apparently 
found in _Reader's Digest_):

	Look to this day
	For yesterday is but a dream
	And tomorrow is only a vision.
	But today, well lived
	Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
	And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
	Look well, therefore, to this day.

Can anyone help me identify a source for this?  My queries have not 
always produced fruit, but when I saw how much help Bob Hueckstedt got 
with a similar problem recently, I felt emboldened.

Thanks in advance,

Brian A. Hatcher
Dept. of Religion
Illinois Wesleyan University
Bloomington, IL  61701

bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu


 





From RQ021RE%TCUAMUS.BITNET at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU  Tue Nov 28 21:27:07 1995
From: RQ021RE%TCUAMUS.BITNET at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (Andrew Fort)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 15:27:07 -0600
Subject: Raman on Sankara
Message-ID: <161227021829.23782.13971629338072242216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A note to Mr. Raman: when you say that Sankara asserts
a view, it would be useful to state where he asserts
it.  I am not familiar, for example, with the passages
which state there is but one mind.  Andy Fort

Andrew O. Fort, Religion Dept.     A.FORT at TCU.EDU
Texas Christian University         Fort Worth TX 76129
 





From vidya at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Nov 28 23:37:43 1995
From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 15:37:43 -0800
Subject: Request for comments: Informal extended abstract
Message-ID: <161227021833.23782.9330880430953506241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Krishna writes:

> A much simpler and, certainly, a much more scientific and
> rational solution is to realize that words like "soul", "karma",
> "rebirth", "Atman", "Maya" etc. are vague/meaningless (and quite
> irrelevant to anyone with more than a minimal knowledge of
> physics and biology).  After all, no one has yet produced

Fortunately or unfortunately, not every human being has that knowledge
of physics or biology. Besides, it would take a huge leap to throw
concepts of soul, karma, rebirth etc., into the dustbin, citing the
authority of science. Human civilization is based upon certain basic
concepts and one should be highly cautious before throwing some
of these overboard.

For example, if the concept of a "soul" is meaningless, is it okay to
murder? We may not have scientific proof for its existence, but as far
as organization of human societies is concerned, the idea that every
human being has a soul has served a very useful purpose.

Science cannot supplant religion/ethics completely. No system
of Indian philosophy claims to be science, at least in the modern sense
of the word. Let us leave the two separate. As for what one person finds
stimulating to his grey matter, it is entirely his concern. As far as 
I could see, what Mr. Raman was doing was not an apologetic for Sankara's
"flawed theories". Even if it were, so what? He did not claim that
it was "scientific". 


S. Vidyasankar


ps. I responded publicly, because the above post was public. I don't think
any ensuing discussion along these lines would be of general interest.
So this will be my last public post on this topic. We could continue
by private email if necessary. 

 





From athr at loc.gov  Tue Nov 28 21:13:44 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 16:13:44 -0500
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021827.23782.6893609179271934742.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Brian,

Great minds work in the same paths!  I have been meaning to post this 
question.  This is a standard of greeting cards, inspirations posters, 
collections of inspirational poems.  One idea I had is that it could be 
ultimately derived (perhaps through several translations or 
transcreations) from some Vedic hymn to Day or Dawn.  Does it ring any 
bells with anyone as such?  It also occurs to me it might be an 
English translation of one of Ruckert's translations of Sanskrit 
literature.  LC has his trans. of the Atharvaveda; I will have a look at 
it to see if anything therein looks like a likely source.  Is anyone out 
there familiar with Ruckert?

Allen Thrasher

On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, B. Hatcher wrote:

> 
> In a short paper on Indian Buddhism one of my students quoted the 
> following words, which she identified as a 'Sanskrit Proverb' (apparently 
> found in _Reader's Digest_):
> 
> 	Look to this day
> 	For yesterday is but a dream
> 	And tomorrow is only a vision.
> 	But today, well lived
> 	Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
> 	And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
> 	Look well, therefore, to this day.
> 
> Can anyone help me identify a source for this?  My queries have not 
> always produced fruit, but when I saw how much help Bob Hueckstedt got 
> with a similar problem recently, I felt emboldened.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Brian A. Hatcher
> Dept. of Religion
> Illinois Wesleyan University
> Bloomington, IL  61701
> 
> bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu
> 
> 
>  
> 
 





From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de  Tue Nov 28 17:33:46 1995
From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 16:33:46 -0100
Subject: Wiil's complaint
Message-ID: <161227021820.23782.3098871304523756800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Folks,
That seems to be as if there someone sayed. Redde caesarii,quae sunt caesariis.
Ulrich





 





From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de  Tue Nov 28 17:38:49 1995
From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 16:38:49 -0100
Subject: Sanskrit font
Message-ID: <161227021821.23782.2544379969064707128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ahoi Peter,
Thank you very much for your reply.Just on Sunday I found a font on the
Yamada's Language page,but when trying out I can't find the short 'u'.Is
there you or someone else to say me that a font for Hindi- isn't that for
use for sanskrit or is there something wrong with my eyes?
Ulrich





 





From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu  Wed Nov 29 01:05:12 1995
From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 17:05:12 -0800
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021835.23782.11304413732285222231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Now surely this is cocktail party stuff. 
#From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 14:05 PST 1995
#Subject: Re: Help with source
#
#>	Look to this day
#>	For yesterday is but a dream
#>	And tomorrow is only a vision.
#>	But today, well lived
#>	Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
#>	And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
#>	Look well, therefore, to this day.
#
#This is Incredible - My sister told me this "old sanskrit poem" last
#week, and that she used it in a toast recently. I asked her the
#source but she didn't know where "exactly" she got it from. But it
#sounded nice, so I wrote it down and came back to Palmerston North
#with the idea of posting it to the list sometime asking if someone
#knew where it first occurs!!!!
#
#As far as I know my sister isn't doing a course on Indian Buddhism.
#I'll believe that it was quoted in Reader's Digest, though.  Seems
#very likely.
#
#Cheers.
#
#- &
# 
#
 





From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Tue Nov 28 05:29:41 1995
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:29:41 +1300
Subject: Request for comments: Informal extended abstract
Message-ID: <161227021812.23782.5623104814933340646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some time ago I was experimenting with an AI program that formed
inductive theories by successively merging situations which appear in
similar contexts.  You could tell it what degree of generalisation you
want it to make via a variable parameter.  Accidentally, I ran it
on some data with runaway generalisation and it produced a trivial
(but useless for prediction) theory by merging all possible outcomes
into a single state.

That night, as I thought about it, the following thought struck me
which I have developed into a sort of informal extended abstract.  I
would ideally like to develop this further into a formal note and thus
would like some comments on it.  I am thus posting it to the list and
would greatly appreciate any feedback the members might have.  I would
also be grateful to not be flamed for any glaring errors the article
may contain.

It is a novel and modern :-) solution to the problem Sankara faced
when asked how a singular soul could undergo rebirth because of its
actions towards other(?) souls.

Thanks.

- &
	 ON RECONCILING SANKARA'S MONISM WITH THE DOCTRINE OF
	     KARMIC REBIRTH - INFORMAL EXTENDED ABSTRACT

Sankara's monism is a form of Hindu philosophy. In fact, it is one of
the most popular ones. It emerges in the Hindu Scriptures and was
developed by the Hindu philosopher and theologian Sankara in the 8th
century. Sankara, it has been argued, made the theory cogent and
intelligible, consistent with other scriptural claims and even used it
as a tool in an attempt to try and convert recalcitrant Buddhists.

Briefly, Sankara's monism, or Advaita as it is called, says that there
is no distinction between mind and body, and besides, that there is
only one mind in the universe. This non-dual mind is identified with
our Self, which is our thinking soul, and also with god.  Everything
else, including your and my individuality, is an illusion, called
Maya, in this mind due to its intrinsic ignorance about the nature of
things.  There need be no cause for ignorance, Sankara argues, as it
occurs naturally.  Only wisdom needs to be explained.  Thus there is
no need to posit any further entities to back this thesis.

Now, post-vedic Hindu scriptures contain ample references also to the
doctrine of karmic rebirth1. That is, every being is caught in an
unending cycle of births and deaths.  As you sow, so you shall reap.
Thus, our "sins"2 will eventually catch up with us causing us (our
souls) to be reborn in our next lives and eventually (after an
infinite time) experience exactly what it is we did to other creatures
in this and our previous lives.  This has been proposed by some as the
Hindu solution to the problem of evil.  A very simplistic
interpretation of this doctrine (folk-rendition) says that if you kill
a butterfly in this life, then you will be reborn as a butterfly in
one of your future lives during which this butterfly will be born as a
human who will kill you, thus evening things out in the final
reckoning.

At first sight, this doctrine itself seems fraught with many serious
problems of personal identity and the final equalisation seems
extremely doubtful given the interconnectedness of so many events.
Much work has been done towards trying to make this theory more
sophisticated, including the claim that an infinite regress does not
merely postpone ethical compensation indefinitely, but achieves it.
But none of them seem convincing to one who is not already convinced
by its naive presentation above.  I hope, however, that I am able to
give a cogent rendition of the doctrine in this note that will solve
all these problems convincingly.

Besides having problems of its own, the doctrine of karmic rebirth is
also inconsistent with Advaita.  Simply, if there is a soul that
undergoes death and rebirth because of its actions towards other
souls, then by implication there are many souls, each undergoing a
series of regenerations. Each has its own bank of karmic consequences
and each tries to work its way to salvation separately. Where then is
Sankara's grand singular soul, the Atman, which is forever unchanging
and blissful?  If Sankara's Atman does not undergo birth or death as
he claims3 where then is the individual soul which undergoes karmic
rebirth? As far as I can tell, Sankara sidesteps the problem as much
as possible, and when the going gets really tough from the Buddhists,
he circumvents it by claiming that there are two kinds of souls, the
absolute, and the manifested.  It is the manifested soul that is
caught in the endless cycle of karmic rebirth - the absolute soul is
free from karmic consequences and as such is untouched by birth or
death.  The apparent existence of the manifested soul is a consequence
of Maya in the absolute soul.

I have never been truly happy with this interpretation. It looks to me
to be suspiciously close to an ad hoc modification to Sankara's
original thesis. I was also unhappy with this because there is a much
nicer solution to this whole problem which goes as follows: We start
off by assuming that there are indeed several individual souls as
required by the doctrine of karma.  There is no mention of any
temporal parameters for the karmic law in the Hindu scriptures.  Thus,
the phenomenon of rebirth could be said to be temporally unbound.
That is, while our bodies may be subject to temporal causes and
effects, there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that our souls also
are.  Our souls may well be aspatio-temporal, i.e., beyond space and
time.  Thus, a person who dies today, may not necessarily be reborn
tomorrow or in the next instant; he or she may be reborn a million
years into the future or even (swallow this for the moment) in the
past!

>From this, it is but a small step, to propose that not only can the
individual soul be reborn in the past and the future, it can even be
reborn in the present! Thus, my neighbour with whom I am carrying on a
conversation could be my own self reborn (or vice versa) and his or
her neighbour and friend could all be rebirths of my soul. If we
extend this scenario enough, a final picture will force itself on us,
which also, by the way, provides ground for good ethics on pragmatic
grounds. There are no other souls than our own.  Every other soul is
just a rebirth of this one soul at a different time and place.  Notice
also, how things even out very nicely in the final reckoning.  There
need even be no final reckoning. As long as we consider that every
sentient being is just our own soul reborn at a different point in
space-time, everything is always in a state of balance. What you
do to your neighbour you are doing to yourself.  Christ's ethical
dictum "Do unto others what you would like others to do unto you" now
becomes pragmatically founded. When you kill a butterfly, you have
just killed yourself as a butterfly. You create and spend the karmic
consequence simultaneously.  You start off with a nil balance and you
end with a nil balance in your karmic bank.  Indeed, you are always in
a state of no debits and no credits.  The real individual soul, of
which there is but one, can now be identified with Sankara's grand
universal soul.  The atman is the Atman.  It is perpetually in the
state of equanimity.

--
 





From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Wed Nov 29 13:23:49 1995
From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 07:23:49 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021836.23782.16192528880545538117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Apropos the recent discussion of translating into English (and German, etc., I 
suppose, too), I invite criticisms of the translations I have published from 
Gan;ges;a (on tarka, pramaatva, and samavaaya) and from other Navya 
Nyaaya philosophers: CLASSICAL INDIAN METAPHYSICS: Refutations of Realism 
and the Emergence of `New Logic'.  Chicago: Open Court, 1995 (just out, and 
almost as cheap as a Penguin!).  Sanskrit text is provided, so the translations 
are easy to check.

In a note, I say this about translating:

(CIM, p. 361) 			. . . the need of an editor to fill out or 
in, so that the translated material can be read by non-specialists, is the 
origin of the parenthetic expressions included in each of the following nine 
sections of translation.  Bits of background theory are often elliptically 
supposed or referred to by means of propositional anaphora.  I use 
parentheses to supply what, in my judgment, seems essential to 
comprehension of the texts in English.  More extensive elaboration of 
background theories, either presupposed or alluded to, are provided in the 
comments.  In the comments, the author's cogitations are also often restated 
in terms that draw on Western and current philosophy, or I say a few words 
to try to make the author's reasoning come alive in the context of 
contemporary issues.
     I believe that each of the authors rendered has meant everything that I 
have provided in English under the headings ``Text and Translation,'' even the 
long expressions in parentheses.  But in some cases the line between the 
truly implicit and necessary background is hard to draw.  In general, I have 
tried to be as faithful to canons of comprehensibility and good English style 
as to the author's Sanskrit.  The two criteria need not compete, and greater 
elegance in English could by some better writer be achieved, I firmly believe. 

End quotation.

Writing now to indologists, let me add that when I say, "The two criteria need 
not compete," I am talking about an ideal.  In reality, of course, as some 
have pointed out, often a choice has to be made between (a) expressions that 
more closely mirror Sanskrit syntax and (b) expressions that convey the 
meaning more clearly and colloquially in English.  I should not like to try to 
formulate rules covering all cases (especially with poetry, where particular 
ambiguities would ideally be preserved), but I'd have to say that (b) is, 
generally speaking, preferable, so long as the sense of the original is 
conveyed.  (Sometimes a tall order.)  Translation is a craft as well as a 
science.  Of course, I am not being modest when I say, as I did, that a better 
writer (and I meant to imply that there are many) could have achieved 
greater elegance, and, I should have added, clarity.

Again, I welcome criticisms of my new translations.  (I hope I don't regret 
this!)  I should hope to learn something.

Stephen Phillips
Philosophy and Asian Studies
University of Texas at Austin
phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu
 





From lester at spot.Colorado.EDU  Wed Nov 29 16:14:55 1995
From: lester at spot.Colorado.EDU (LESTER ROBERT C)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 09:14:55 -0700
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021842.23782.3754409407114057807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

How about Khalil Gibran?

On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote:

> 
> I think I will be devil's advocate and propose that the claim that this is
> an old Sanskrit poem is either completely bogus or the poem is badly
> translated. It is of course difficult to prove a negative. Has anyone any
> evidence to the contrary ?
> 
> >#>      Look to this day
> >#>      For yesterday is but a dream
> >#>      And tomorrow is only a vision.
> >#>      But today, well lived
> >#>      Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
> >#>      And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
> >#>      Look well, therefore, to this day.
> 
> Lance Cousins
> 
> MANCHESTER, UK
> Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk
> 
> 
>  
> 
 





From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Tue Nov 28 21:40:15 1995
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:40:15 +1300
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021830.23782.11996556570048257572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>	Look to this day
>	For yesterday is but a dream
>	And tomorrow is only a vision.
>	But today, well lived
>	Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
>	And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
>	Look well, therefore, to this day.

This is Incredible - My sister told me this "old sanskrit poem" last
week, and that she used it in a toast recently. I asked her the
source but she didn't know where "exactly" she got it from. But it
sounded nice, so I wrote it down and came back to Palmerston North
with the idea of posting it to the list sometime asking if someone
knew where it first occurs!!!!

As far as I know my sister isn't doing a course on Indian Buddhism.
I'll believe that it was quoted in Reader's Digest, though.  Seems
very likely.

Cheers.

- &
 





From unknown at example.com  Wed Nov 29 18:03:46 1995
From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 12:03:46 -0600
Subject: New Book (Tamil)
Message-ID: <161227021845.23782.17018493087604639384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jakannataraja, Mu. Ku., 1933-    Vatamoli valattirkut Tamilarin panku 
Mu. Ku. Jakannata Raja.  patippu.  Cennai : Niyu Cencuri Puk Havus, 1994. 
 349 p. ; 19 cm.

SUBJECTS:  Sanskrit literature--Dravidian authors--History and criticism.
Sanskrit literature--Tamil authors--Bio-bibliography.            
Includes bibliographical references (p. 347-349).
Contribution of Tamil authors to Sanskrit literature; includes 
bio-bibliographical information.
 





From vanderk at husc.harvard.edu  Wed Nov 29 17:19:49 1995
From: vanderk at husc.harvard.edu (Leonard Van Der Kuijp)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 12:19:49 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit grammars
Message-ID: <161227021847.23782.13045875145601846133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello all of you and Peter in particular.

Thanks for the reply concerning my query about a Sanskrit grammatical text 
entitled *Rajashri*. Peter Verhagen's note via Bu ston ultimately goes 
back to Khro phu Lo tsa ba Byams pa'i dpal's autobiography in which he 
writes that, while in the Kathmandu Valley in the mid 1190s, he studied 
this work with Buddhashri. Being the recipient of all the transmissions 
that issued from Khro phu Lo tsa ba, it is likely that the autobiography 
was Bu ston's source for this title. Still going round in circles!

Again, merci for the time taken,

Leonard
 





From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz  Tue Nov 28 23:21:55 1995
From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 12:21:55 +1300
Subject: Raman on Sankara
Message-ID: <161227021832.23782.14790493386497575102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Andrew, 

Thanks for your comment. I will make note of it.

- &
 





From kichenas at math.umn.edu  Wed Nov 29 19:22:42 1995
From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:22:42 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021850.23782.7547148036602102664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This is further to B. Kellner's comments. Her final piece of advice
 "do not read anything into the text which is not there" cannot be
stressed too strongly. The following comments wmay be relevant.

(1) I think most of us would agree that there is such a thing as a
`scientific translation.' It is one which aims at conveying the intent of
the author as far as it has been reconstructed, AND NOTHING ELSE. There is
another kind, which aims at expressing the creative reaction of the
translator to the work of another. Several poets have tried their hand at
the latter. They are interesting and informative, as any other literary
production is, for the light they shed on their author and his/her own
context. They may be one of the means for ideas from one culture to be
(deformed and) assimilated into another. As far as Indian Studies are
concerned, it seems that it is desirable first and foremost to try to
understand what the texts mean. 

(2) The problems with `equivalence' were actually well-illustrated in this
forum with the discussions on `soul' and `atheism.'

(3) A brief remark on the `scientific' input to metaphysical problems:
modern research on the physiology of perception shows that we are *very*
far from a complete theory of sensory perception, let alone psychological
phenomena. This is quite obvious in particular when looking at the problem
of computer vision. Also, philosophy in India is supposed to be about the
search for truth, and there is no reason why there should be two standards
for truth: the truths of Indian philosophy must be compatible with what is
inferred from what we admit as pramANas. Indian philosophers used freely
the scientific knowledge of their time in their work, and there is no
reason why we cannot do the same, updating or amending their arguments as
necessary. Of course, it is but too easy to detect scientific errors in 
philosophical and religious texts of all cultures...that does not mean 
that philosophy and religion do not deal with very real problems.


                                Satyanad Kichenassamy
                                School of Mathematics
                                University of Minnesota
                                E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu


 





From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk  Wed Nov 29 13:36:52 1995
From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:36:52 +0000
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021838.23782.3396521520471955272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I think I will be devil's advocate and propose that the claim that this is
an old Sanskrit poem is either completely bogus or the poem is badly
translated. It is of course difficult to prove a negative. Has anyone any
evidence to the contrary ?

>#>      Look to this day
>#>      For yesterday is but a dream
>#>      And tomorrow is only a vision.
>#>      But today, well lived
>#>      Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
>#>      And every tomorrow a vision of hope.
>#>      Look well, therefore, to this day.

Lance Cousins

MANCHESTER, UK
Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk


 





From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu  Wed Nov 29 19:43:48 1995
From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:43:48 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021852.23782.15284693549590209894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Birgit Kellner wrote:

> Presuppose that the translation is one of Navya-Nyaaya-texts, I find the
> first desideratum  difficult, if not impossible, to achieve. How can one
> mirror a syntax which is abundant in nominal compounds and abstract nouns in
> a language which lacks these possibilities? 

Well, it's not so hard to render, in some cases, subjects and predicates
preserving the Sanskrit order and relation.  Shouldn't one do so, other 
things being equal?  Of course, often there can't be much syntactical 
mirroring.

As to the second desideratum -
> how can you be colloquial and clear in English where the original text is
> neither?

I beg to disagree.  Gan;ges;a is often lucid, and maybe not colloquial
but entirely clear.  And when he is not straigtforwardly clear (he is 
after all writing about perception, inference, analogical acquisition of 
vocabulary, and comprehension of what someone says, matters with which we 
all have a direct acquaintance), his thought can be made clear in comments.

 To be precise: The Navya-Naiyyayikas, as much as every other Indian
> philosophical author, addressed an audience which was well-informed about
> their theories - they did not write for the Dhobi-wallah next door, as much
> as modern scholars don't write for their caretakers (I don't mean to sound
> elitist - I just refer to sociolects). Hence, what they wrote was clear to
> those with the same educational background, and might even be called
> "colloquial" in this environment, but, alas, none of this is around anymore.
> When Stephen Phillips refers to a "non-specialist" audience, I take it he
> means philosophers with no training in Sanskrit (correct me, if this is
> wrong). In this case, and especially in the case of Navya-Nyaaya with
> English as a target-language, I would not attempt a translation at all - or
> if, a translation with as few explanations as possible (mainly to clarify,
> to the specialist, how one analyzes the text in detail, or, in case of
> philologically problematic texts, to justify the constitution of the text),
> and a detailled study or interpretation. 
> 
Yes, I have presupposed in my audience some familiarity with the history of
Western philosophy, about that of a junior undergraduate philosophy 
major, and have not presupposed familarity with Indian thought.  But, I 
am sorry, translation for this audience is not so difficult as you make 
out.  Long compounds with an abstract suffix in the ablative or 
instrumental case of course have to be rendered as subordinate clauses 
or the like in English, but I should think it would not be too hard for a 
student of Sanskrit to be able to retrace my renderings of Gan;ges;a; 
there is a correspondence, though not a word-for-word relationality.

I try to restrict using parentheses for true propositional anaphora and
ellipsis.  I use a separate section labelled "Comments" for elaboration 
and presentation of further background.

Probably what I mean by propositional anaphora (paradigmatically, "it" 
used to refer to whole views) is a part of what Kellner means by:
> 
 Just because a textual element is not lexically represented on
> the textual surface doesn't mean it's not a part of the text.

But he probably also means more.  Maybe I shouldn't feel the need for 
parentheses.  However, like everything else, there is a way of using them 
well.

Stephen Phillips

I plan to read in the literature on translation Kellner mentions.  Thank 
you, sir.

 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Wed Nov 29 21:48:39 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:48:39 -0800
Subject: Leonard van der Kuijp's query
Message-ID: <161227021855.23782.3690665058207769817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I recall coming across a manuscript, probably in the collection of the
Ganganath Jha Kendriya Sanskrit Vidyapeeth, Allahabad, which carried the
title Vaakara.naala.mkaara or Mahaavyaakara.naala.mkaara and, on
examination, turned out to be a manuscript  of the ala.mkaara chapter in
the Bha.t.ti-kaavya or Raava.na-vadha. I was hoping to be able to have time
to find my notes on this. However, since I am in the midst of preparing for
a research and conference trip to India, I must at this time rest content
with reporting my recollection. I hope this helps you, Leonard. -- ashok
aklujkar

 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Wed Nov 29 21:57:02 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:57:02 -0800
Subject: My absence
Message-ID: <161227021856.23782.18322712720436375408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To those who usually correspond with me:

Kindly note that I shall be away from Vancouver, 3 Dec - 9 January, to
carry out some research in the Tirupati-Madras area and to attend a
conference in Madras (2-5 January).  Should you need to reach me for any
urgent matter, the secretaries in my department (604-822-3881/5728) should
be able to advise you on how to reach me.  Thanks. -- ashok aklujkar

 





From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de  Wed Nov 29 16:00:33 1995
From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 15:00:33 -0100
Subject: Sanskrit Font
Message-ID: <161227021840.23782.12038129938752855628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ladies and Gentlemen,
As I was in a hurry I wrote quite a big rubbish about a font I have and
can't find a short u. I beg all of you for your very pardon, being
disturbed by this message of mine; it was a miss look. The font I have is a
Hindi font.
Unfortunately all other fonts I found and have been told of where post
script fonts, which I am not able to use on my Printer.
Ulrich





 





From tart at iastate.edu  Wed Nov 29 21:22:00 1995
From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 15:22:00 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021853.23782.1683783717085268159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


I am interested in Satyanad Kichenassamy's sugestion about scientific 
translations:

"I think most of us would agree that there is such a thing as a
`scientific translation.' It is one which aims at conveying the intent
of
the author as far as it has been reconstructed, AND NOTHING ELSE." 

This is a useful goal in a translation, but certainly one with very
limited
possibility of success.  To render any ideas in language one must assume
the cultural world to which it refers.  Even in philosophy this leaves a

great deal implicit and so susceptable to interpolations that different 
translators will treat differently.  

Like objectivity in any descriptive discussion, scientific translation
has
definite usefulness as an ideal, but I don't think we should confuse 
selves by expecting that we can easily achieve such translation outside
the world of mathematics.

Gary Tartakov  
 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Wed Nov 29 23:30:18 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 15:30:18 -0800
Subject: Kaatantra inquiry
Message-ID: <161227021858.23782.12239779663655745955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few weeks ago, in response to an inquiry from Dr. R. Torella, Prof.
Madhav Deshpande referred to a very useful1975  publication on Kaatantra
grammar by Jaanakii Prasaada Dviveda.  The same specialist has contributed 
another well-informed volume: 

;Sarva-varman.  Kalaapa-vyaakara.nam : Kalaapa vyaakara.na ke
suutrapaa.thaadi 27 muula-pa.tha tathaa vai;si.s.tya-bodhaka 7
pari;si.s.ta. Sampaadaka.h Jaanakii-prasaada-dviveda.h. Sarnath, Varanasi:
Kendriiya Ucca-Tibbatii-;sik aa-sa.msthaana [= Central Institute of Higher
Tibetan Studies], 1988. Bho.ta-Bhaaratiiya Grantha-maalaa 14.

Another publication not so good is: Kaatantra Vyaakara.na. Edited by R.S.
Saini. Delhi, Varanasi: Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan. 1987. Its chief merit is
in being a Devanagarii recast of the 1933 Bengali script edn by Gurunatha
Vidyanidhi Bhattacharya. 

-- ashok aklujkar
  

 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Thu Nov 30 01:15:31 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 17:15:31 -0800
Subject: Rushdie and Classical Skt lit
Message-ID: <161227021864.23782.15083004225125749968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I received the following message from <support at usa.pipeline.com> regarding
my 24 Nov message reproduced below: "Some messages that you have sent were
damaged in 
transmission and were unable to be retrieved by the addressee. We kindly
request that you  re-transmit this message. " 

Reproduced message: 

In the context of the recent discussion regarding Rushdie's connection with
early Indian literature, note: 

Vidyut Aklujkar. 1993. "Haroun and the Sea of Stories : Metamorphosis of an
old Metaphor   in Commonwealth Novel in English, Vol. 6 Numbers 1 & 2,
Spring  & Fall.  pp. 1-12. Bluefield State College, West Virginia. 
[An earlier version of the paper was read at the 201st meeting of the
American Oriental Society at The University of California, Berkley, on
March 5, 1991. ]

 





From wagers at computek.net  Wed Nov 29 23:41:59 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 17:41:59 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021860.23782.7978320804631993905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Thread-Participants,

I am enjoying this thread immensely. I just wanted to point out to the
participants that a new newsgroup - sci.philosophy.natural (moderated) -
will deal with just these sorts of issues.

The goal of the group is to understand the co-development of science,
philosophy, theology, and mythology in all cultures. What has been called
here 'scientific translation' - with its limitations - is central to this
effort.

It is being voted on right now, and your participation is welcome. Ballots
are available by e-mail from the votetaker:

        david.bostwick at chemistry.gatech.edu

Sincerely,

Will


 





From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk  Wed Nov 29 17:50:08 1995
From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 17:50:08 +0000
Subject: new address
Message-ID: <161227021849.23782.3020403011668013419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Please note: when your
email address is about
to change, you need to
resign from INDOLOGY       (send "unsub indology" to "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk")
first from your old
address, and then
re-join                    ("sub indology Your Name" to listserv...)
from the new one.

The LISTSERV software looks at your incoming email headers to work out
details of who you are, and how to get email back to you.  These details
are normally constructed automatically by your email software.

Dominik


-- 

Dominik Wujastyk,
Wellcome Institute,
183 Euston Road,
London NW1 2BE.

FAX: +44 171 611 8545
email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk

For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html

 





From garzilli at shore.net  Thu Nov 30 03:36:45 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 22:36:45 -0500
Subject: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES -- Vol. 1, No. 1 (ISSN 1085-7478)
Message-ID: <161227021866.23782.12202247223207707692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends and Colleagues, 
I am very pleased to inform you that the 
first issue of the JOURNAL  OF  SOUTH  ASIA  WOMEN  STUDIES has been 
published. 

IN THIS ISSUE:

- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
- A DEB....
- PAPERS: * A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on 
	    Women and Social Change *, by Sita Kapadia
	  * Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable            
	    Solution of Dowry Problem in India? *, by                       
	    Subhadra Chaturvedi 
- NEW TITLES
                                                    
ABSTRACTS:
In her paper Dr. Kapadia offers a survey of an 
aspect of Gandhi's thought which has not exhaustively been 
investigated: his view of womanhood and the social and political 
role of women.
The second paper is entitled *Whether Inheritance to Women is a 
Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India?*, by Ms. Subhadra 
Chaturvedi, Advocate at the Supreme Court of India.
Ms. Chaturvedi offers a statistic of the reported crimes against 
women in India, and especially against brides. She also gives her legal 
point of view on women's inheritance and on the Indian National 
Perspective Plan for women 1988-2000 A.D.

In a few days you will be able to find this issue at: 
 
WWW: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/
FTP: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/   

or subscribing to:
jsaws-request at shore.net 


Thank you

Dott. Enrica Garzilli
Editor-in-Chief
 





From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu  Thu Nov 30 04:58:13 1995
From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 23:58:13 -0500
Subject: Indology Logo Competition
Message-ID: <161227021868.23782.142419771796461551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


A vote for Nataraja 1.
 





From kichenas at math.umn.edu  Thu Nov 30 00:12:16 1995
From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 00:12:16 +0000
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021862.23782.1263656069724723949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Further to Gary Tartakov's comment on translations, it may be useful to
point out that in practice, the internal consistency of the texts usually
enables one eventually to figure out what the author really meant. It is
quite interesting to do this for poems of the Sangam, some of which are
rather short with little contextual information (from a colophon) but
which can be given a single correct interpretation. There are of course
many other examples. The translation itself further requires of course
using to the fullest the capacities of the target language, which leads to
issues already raised e.g. by B. Kellner. 

All things considered, there are only three possibilities: 
either one satisfactory interpretation has been achieved
or the text is deliberately ambiguous
or we must admit that we lack enough arguments to conclude what
the author originally meant. It seems desirable that a translation make clear
which of the above applies to it, and that a critical apparatus, if
provided, should explain why. That is what the better editions accomplish,
and there are many of those.

I don't think most of those who tried their hand at translating would
call the result `easily achieved,' but was it supposed to be? Contextual
problems always have to be coped with, even with technical literature---as
anyone who tried to read ancient mathematical treatises, or even
contemporary scientific works in a field other than his/her own, knows
well. 

Perhaps the term `scientific translation' should be replaced by `rigorous
translation' lest it may suggest a (pointless) opposition between
`scientific' and `literary' pursuits. 

                                Satyanad Kichenassamy
                                School of Mathematics  
                                University of Minnesota
                                E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu
 

 





From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Wed Nov 29 16:46:29 1995
From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 01:46:29 +0900
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021844.23782.12227530527138514363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't have Stephen Phillips' book at hand, but here a few remarks on his
remarks on translating (quotes, unless stated otherwise, from his posting; I
will restrict my following comments to the translation of philosophical texts). 

First of all, I got the impression, during the whole of the preceding
discussion (which focused on Doniger's RV-translations), that Indologists
live in a universe of their own, where they have to invent wheels anew all
the time, without any influx - be that deliberate or not - from other
disciplines. 
Aside from tons of reflections on translation in comparative literature
studies, linguistics et al., there is a "discipline" called translational
studies, and voices get louder to regard this as a distinct, but integrated
discipline in its own right (cf. Mary Snell-Hornby's writings, or a number
of, I think, predominantly German scholars, e.g. F. Paepcke, who argue for a
more hermeneutical perspective on translation). The efforts of translational
studies go, as can be expected, into a more practice-oriented direction,
viz. to supply criteria which facilitate teaching how to translate and
judge/evaluate the final product. The translation of philosophical texts,
esp. from "exotic" cultures and traditions, has not yet been dealt with
adequately in the bulk of translational studies' books - at least not to my
meager knowledge -, alas, there's work to be done. I might also call
attention to more linguistically/pragmatically oriented reflections on
translation of Indian Philosophy by Claus Oetke (directed against, amongst
others, and objected by, amongst others, Johannes Bronkhorst), and D.
Seyffort-Ruegg's article "Some Reflections on Translating Buddhist
Philosophical Texts from Sanskrit and Tibetan", Asiatische Studien 46/1
(1992), 367-391, who refers to many works which deal with philosophical
translation in a non-Indological context. 

End of literature-lesson with included statement of amazement. 

The remarks made by Stephen Phillips refer to a specific type of
translation, with a specific intention: (1) make a text accessible to an
audience who is neither familiar with the source-language, nor with its
historical and philosophical background; (2) carry the ideas of the texts
across into an environment of current Western philosophy, or at least use
concepts of Western philosophy as a "delimiting device", a means of
explaining, comparing, assessing the original text. At the same time, the
translator considers both to "mirror Sanskrit syntax" and "convey meaning
clearly and colloquially in English" as desirable. 

Presuppose that the translation is one of Navya-Nyaaya-texts, I find the
first desideratum  difficult, if not impossible, to achieve. How can one
mirror a syntax which is abundant in nominal compounds and abstract nouns in
a language which lacks these possibilities? As to the second desideratum -
how can you be colloquial and clear in English where the original text is
neither? To be precise: The Navya-Naiyyayikas, as much as every other Indian
philosophical author, addressed an audience which was well-informed about
their theories - they did not write for the Dhobi-wallah next door, as much
as modern scholars don't write for their caretakers (I don't mean to sound
elitist - I just refer to sociolects). Hence, what they wrote was clear to
those with the same educational background, and might even be called
"colloquial" in this environment, but, alas, none of this is around anymore.
When Stephen Phillips refers to a "non-specialist" audience, I take it he
means philosophers with no training in Sanskrit (correct me, if this is
wrong). In this case, and especially in the case of Navya-Nyaaya with
English as a target-language, I would not attempt a translation at all - or
if, a translation with as few explanations as possible (mainly to clarify,
to the specialist, how one analyzes the text in detail, or, in case of
philologically problematic texts, to justify the constitution of the text),
and a detailled study or interpretation. 

As for the "need of an editor to fill out or in", which is described as "the
origin of the parenthetic expressions" included in the translation - there
has been a lot of shuffling around round, square or pointed brackets in
translations of Indian Philosophical texts through the ages, and I still
find myself pondering in every case, what is supposed to be in brackets, and
what outside. The meanest piece of advice I got was "whatever is not in the
original text has to be bracketed in the translation" - mean, because it
equates textual surface, i.e. syntax and piecemeal semantics, with the text
itself, and ultimetaly does not get you very far. I still stop at every
"and", "but" or "yet" to scratch my head and pour out my brain-cells over
brackets, while I might put them to better use such as how to understand why
one can infer the absence of taste from the sensation of touch, when one
swallows a lamp (sic). 

The mean advisors thereby sequester pragmatic elements, which may be
textually implicit but which may not have a lexcial representation on the
textual surface, into the dungeon of surplus, of decorative ornaments. To
cut it short: Just because a textual element is not lexically represented on
the textual surface doesn't mean it's not a part of the text. This, again,
has been frequently and quite recently pointed out in yet another
discipline, that of text-linguistics. One of the results of a more refined
concept of what actually constitutes a texts is, in translational studies, a
sound scepticism with reference to or the violent rejection of (depends on
whose books you read) the concept of _equivalence_, and an outright flirt
with ideas such as _adequacy_, _appropriateness_, _functionality_,
_intentionality_ etc. All this does not mean that the enterprise of
translation is left entirely to the moods of a translator, is catapulted
into the realm of ultimate arbitrariness and subjectivity - it only means
that different objectifiable criteria should be considered, too. It also,
just to clarify possible misunderstandings, does not mingle with M. Witzel's
criticism of Doniger's _inaccuracy_, for accuracy of measurements, plant
names etc. is an altogether different question. 

However, I will stop my monologue here in order to wait whether anybody is
interested in these musings in the first place. Next week: Yet another mean
piece of advice - "do not read anything into the text which is not there". 

Birgit Kellner
Institute for Indian Philosophy
University of Hiroshima

 





From athr at loc.gov  Thu Nov 30 14:08:42 1995
From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:08:42 -0500
Subject: 2 inquiries of Jonathan silk
Message-ID: <161227021873.23782.18361271029200298549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am retransmitting this to Indology because I just got a message from 
Pipeline that it had been obstructed and lost.  Pardon if it actually got 
through and is therefore being reposted.


In response to Jonathan Silk's first enquiry, on Kali-puja, if he is 
interested in "descriptions" in the sense of those by an observer, they 
may perhaps be found in the following books. I have not examined them 
myself.  There are also a number of books which are "descriptions" of the 
cult of Kali in the sense of manuals of her worship. 

   AUTHOR: Harding, Elizabeth U., 1943-
    TITLE: Kali :
           the black goddess of Dakshineswar /
    PLACE: York Beach, Me. :
PUBLISHER: Nicolas-Hays,
     YEAR: 1993     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: xxxiii, 318 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 21 cm.
    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. [307]-309) and index.
     ISBN: 0892540257 (alk. paper) :
  SUBJECT: Dakshineswar Kali Temple.
           Kali (Hindu deity)
           Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Dakshineswar.
           Dakshineswar (India) -- Religious life and customs.

   AUTHOR: Raya, Diptimaya.
    TITLE: Pascimabangera Kali o Kalikshetra /
    PLACE: Kalikata :
PUBLISHER: Mandala Buka Hausa,
     YEAR: 1984     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 10, 242, [2] p., [4] p. of plates : ill. ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           Bibliography: p. [243]-[244]
           Socioreligious study of Kali, Hindu goddess, in Bengal; includes 
           notes on her various forms and pilgrimage centers dedicated to 
           the deity.
  SUBJECT: Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Bengal.
           Bengal (India) -- Religion.

   AUTHOR: Haladara, Prabhata.
    TITLE: Srisrikali o Kalikshetra /
    PLACE: Kalikata :
PUBLISHER: Karuna Prakasani,
     YEAR: 1986     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: xvi, 133 p., [2] p. of plates : ill., geneal. tables ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           On the history and religious significance of Kalighata, locality 
           in Calcutta, seat of the temple of Kali (Hindu deity)
  SUBJECT: Kali (Hindu deity) -- Cult -- India -- Calcutta.
           Hinduism -- India -- Calcutta.
           Kalighata (Calcutta, India) -- History.
           Calcutta (India) -- History.

   AUTHOR: Nayaka, Datta Damodara.
    TITLE: Kalighata te karunaghata /
    PLACE: Panaji :
PUBLISHER: Rajahasa Vitarana,
     YEAR: 1995     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 80 p. ; 23 cm.
    NOTES: Travel impressions of the author about his visit to various 
           places.
     ISBN: 8185854157
  SUBJECT: Nayaka, Datta Damodara -- Journeys.

   AUTHOR: Basu Roy, Indrani.
    TITLE: Kalighat, its impact on socio-cultural life of Hindus /
    PLACE: New Delhi :
PUBLISHER: Gyan Pub. House,
     YEAR: 1993     
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: x, 157 p. : ill., maps ; 22 cm.
    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. [137]-140) and index.
           On an area in Calcutta City, India.
     ISBN: 8121204011 :
  SUBJECT: Kalighat Kali Temple.
           Kalighata (Calcutta, India) -- Religious life and customs.

   AUTHOR: Cattopadhyaya, Suryyakumara.
    TITLE: Kalikshetra dipika /
    PLACE: Kalakata :
PUBLISHER: Pustaka Bipani,
     YEAR: 1986 1891
 PUB TYPE: Book
   FORMAT: 180 p., [3] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.), 1 folded map ; 
           23 cm.
    NOTES: In Bengali.
           Originally published: Kalikata : Parthiba Yantrae, 1891.
           Includes bibliographical references.
           History and antiquities of the temple of Kali, Hindu deity, at 
           Kalighat, Calcutta.
  SUBJECT: Kalighata (Temple : Calcutta, India) -- History.
    OTHER: Bhaumika, Haripada.

   AUTHOR: Bagchi, Subhendugopal.


Allen W. Thrasher

Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4774
tel. 202-707-5600
fax  202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov


 
On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 jonathan.silk at wmich.edu wrote:

> A student has asked me two questions:
> 
> 1)     Are there any published descriptions of Kali-puja in Calcutta,
> especially in recent times?  
> 
> 2)	Are there any summer programs in Bengali, in the US or anywhere
> including India?  How about Hindi / Urdu?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Jonathan Silk
> SIlk at wmich.edu
>  
> 



 





From unknown at example.com  Thu Nov 30 15:27:19 1995
From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:27:19 -0600
Subject: Query: SE Asian Art/Dance Video??
Message-ID: <161227021875.23782.3132497418716979946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


11/30/95

          Cambodian or Indonesian Art & Dance Video??
          ********************************************

I have a query: 
>From Southeast Asia - especially Indonesia(Bali) and Cambodia and Thailand,
want to borrow some videos on temples, sculpture, dances, etc.,

Especially the Khmer dance. I am also very interested in looking at 
Ramayana panels from Khmer temples, Thai sculpture and also 
from Indonesian sites.

Any suggestions?!

Yours
n. ganesan
nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov




 





From bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu  Thu Nov 30 15:32:10 1995
From: bhatcher at titan.iwu.edu (B. Hatcher)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:32:10 -0600
Subject: Help with source
Message-ID: <161227021880.23782.18077032782658077229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  Well, barring those who don't care for cocktail parties, my initial 
query on the alleged "Sanskrit proverb" generated a few responses (thanks 
to the person who responded to me directly regarding a possible link to 
the Dhammapada).  It certainly is curious to find how ubiquitous this 
little ditty has apparently become.  If it is a staple of greeting cards 
and if it is in fact being passed off as something genuine from the 
"Sanskrit", I for one would still be interested to see if that claim can be 
substantiated.  As Lance Cousins suggests it has such a generic flavor of 
"deep thoughts" that one really doubts the claim.  But then, if you 
take the first two verses of the Dhammapada and render them with *extreme* 
license could you come up with this poem (Mascaro's Penguin trans. seems 
to move in this direction--though I hesitate to raise the matter of 
Penguin translations!).

 Anyone care to continue this thread, or shall we close up the bar?

Brian Hatcher
Dept. of Religion
Illinois Wesleyan University
Bloomington, IL  61701

 





From pb019 at csc.albany.edu  Thu Nov 30 03:45:52 1995
From: pb019 at csc.albany.edu (pb019 at csc.albany.edu)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:45:52 +0600
Subject: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES -- Vol. 1, No. 1 (ISSN         1085-7478)
Message-ID: <161227021876.23782.1208398653697744312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Glad to hear that the journal is out.

It would probably be a good idea to relay the message to the following ng
address:

third-world-women at jefferson.village.virginia.edu.

To subscribe, email Radhika Gajjala at <gajjala+ at pitt.edu>.

The input of third world women would be helpful. And interesting too.


-Partha Banerjee
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear Friends and Colleagues,
>I am very pleased to inform you that the
>first issue of the JOURNAL  OF  SOUTH  ASIA  WOMEN  STUDIES has been
>published.
>
>IN THIS ISSUE:
>
>- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
>- A DEB....
>- PAPERS: * A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on
>            Women and Social Change *, by Sita Kapadia
>          * Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable
>            Solution of Dowry Problem in India? *, by
>            Subhadra Chaturvedi
>- NEW TITLES
>
>ABSTRACTS:
>In her paper Dr. Kapadia offers a survey of an
>aspect of Gandhi's thought which has not exhaustively been
>investigated: his view of womanhood and the social and political
>role of women.
>The second paper is entitled *Whether Inheritance to Women is a
>Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India?*, by Ms. Subhadra
>Chaturvedi, Advocate at the Supreme Court of India.
>Ms. Chaturvedi offers a statistic of the reported crimes against
>women in India, and especially against brides. She also gives her legal
>point of view on women's inheritance and on the Indian National
>Perspective Plan for women 1988-2000 A.D.
>
>In a few days you will be able to find this issue at:
>
>WWW: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/
>FTP: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/
>
>or subscribing to:
>jsaws-request at shore.net
>
>
>Thank you
>
>Dott. Enrica Garzilli
>Editor-in-Chief
>


 





From KVIRTANE at dodo.jyu.fi  Thu Nov 30 09:45:57 1995
From: KVIRTANE at dodo.jyu.fi (Keijo Virtanen)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:45:57 +0000
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021872.23782.1531848167320558237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Good morning listers,

as for 
 
> This is further to B. Kellner's comments. Her final piece of advice
>  "do not read anything into the text which is not there" cannot be
> stressed too strongly. The following comments wmay be relevant.
> 
> (1) I think most of us would agree that there is such a thing as a
> `scientific translation.' It is one which aims at conveying the intent of
> the author as far as it has been reconstructed, AND NOTHING ELSE.  

<stuff deleted>
>                                 Satyanad Kichenassamy
>                                 School of Mathematics
>                                 University of Minnesota
>                                 E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu
> 

I want to remind, that it is only the TEXT we have, everything we say 
about the INTENT of the author is more than the text; we never can 
know the intent of the author, but deal with the meanings of the text.
The older the texts, the more dangerous it is to try to speculate 
with the intent/s of the author, especially when we have texts from 
the cultures from which so much is disappeared.

Sincerely,
Keijo Virtanen
University of Jyv{skyl{
Department of Literature,
Finland



 





From garzilli at shore.net  Thu Nov 30 17:14:59 1995
From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 12:14:59 -0500
Subject: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES -- Vol. 1, No. 1 (ISSN
Message-ID: <161227021885.23782.15855024677397177501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you very much for your public info!
The imput of women on the other side of the earth is ESSENTIAL. And it 
is the aim of our journal.

eg
------------------------------------------
On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Partha Banerjee wrote:

> Glad to hear that the journal is out.
> 
> It would probably be a good idea to relay the message to the following ng
> address:
> 
> third-world-women at jefferson.village.virginia.edu.
> 
> To subscribe, email Radhika Gajjala at <gajjala+ at pitt.edu>.
> 
> The input of third world women would be helpful. And interesting too.
> 
> 
> -Partha Banerjee
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Dear Friends and Colleagues,
> >I am very pleased to inform you that the
> >first issue of the JOURNAL  OF  SOUTH  ASIA  WOMEN  STUDIES has been
> >published.
> >
> >IN THIS ISSUE:
> >
> >- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
> >- A DEB....
> >- PAPERS: * A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on
> >            Women and Social Change *, by Sita Kapadia
> >          * Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable
> >            Solution of Dowry Problem in India? *, by
> >            Subhadra Chaturvedi
> >- NEW TITLES
> >
> >ABSTRACTS:
> >In her paper Dr. Kapadia offers a survey of an
> >aspect of Gandhi's thought which has not exhaustively been
> >investigated: his view of womanhood and the social and political
> >role of women.
> >The second paper is entitled *Whether Inheritance to Women is a
> >Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India?*, by Ms. Subhadra
> >Chaturvedi, Advocate at the Supreme Court of India.
> >Ms. Chaturvedi offers a statistic of the reported crimes against
> >women in India, and especially against brides. She also gives her legal
> >point of view on women's inheritance and on the Indian National
> >Perspective Plan for women 1988-2000 A.D.
> >
> >In a few days you will be able to find this issue at:
> >
> >WWW: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/
> >FTP: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/
> >
> >or subscribing to:
> >jsaws-request at shore.net
> >
> >
> >Thank you
> >
> >Dott. Enrica Garzilli
> >Editor-in-Chief
> >
> 
> 
>  
> 

******************************************************************************
"Sometimes I sit and think: why these people hate us so bad? I chalk it up 
to two things: jealousy and plain ignorance!" 
******************************************************************************



 





From Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu  Thu Nov 30 20:11:20 1995
From: Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu (Bruce.Sullivan at nau.edu)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 13:11:20 -0700
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021895.23782.3480643397353836995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

And in Delhi, one should not neglect the cheerful folks at:

Nag Publishers
11A/U.A., Post Office Building
Jawahar Nagar
Delhi  110 007
phone: 2517975

Bruce M. Sullivan

 





From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca  Thu Nov 30 21:18:37 1995
From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 13:18:37 -0800
Subject: Address of Dr. Virginia M. Axline
Message-ID: <161227021898.23782.5703021984089567091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This query is directed particularly at those Indology members who live in
the United States, especially in the Ohio state area. 

At the request of an old professor of mine, I am trying to find out   the
precise address of Dr. Virginia M. Axline, author of Dibs in Search of
Self. According to the 52nd edition of this book published in 1990, Dr.
Axline "is engaged in private practice in Columbus, Ohio" and "is a member
of the faculty at Ohio State University."  My preliminary inquiries reveal
that Dr. Axline  is no longer at this address.  Does anyone know her
present whereabouts? 
With thanks and good wishes, ashok aklujkar



 





From kichenas at math.umn.edu  Thu Nov 30 20:02:30 1995
From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 14:02:30 -0600
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021892.23782.9213311269710649183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


This is further to two recent comments by Keijo Virtanen
and  Birgit Kellner on this subject.

First off, it seems many *would* feel unconfortable with a translation
which deliberately introduces new elements into a text. But then I suppose
that is also what is involved in giving an ``accurate, documented and
objectifiable'' translation.  I assumed that B. Kellner's point was about
what one wants to call `objectifiable criteria,' and not about their being
abandoned for the benefit of unsupported speculation. The issue of
defining these criteria is a secondary issue---first one has to agree, as
I think she did, that we do not want translation to be left in ``the realm
of ultimate arbitrariness and subjectivity.'' One could discuss in various
directions the role (and definition) of what was called ``textual
surface'' (seemingly trivial elements of syntax are often useful in order
to detect flaws in interpretations; at the same time, we certainly cannot
let the tree conceal the forest); this is certainly relevant and
interesting but is probably, as far as the issue of level of rigor is
concerned, a minor point. 

On the comment that (the term `scientific' or rigorous translation)
``suggests that there is a type of translation which is more mechanical
than another, less creative, and sort of shuts off the translator's own
ideas during a machine-like process ...'' it is interesting to note that
this is an extrapolation from the comment it is supposed to respond to,
and is based on the assumption that `scientific=mechanical.'

I suppose I already addressed the issue, and that the fact was recognized
by B. Kellner, but since it was brought forward again by K. Virtanen, it
may help to stress the quite obvious fact that contextual information is
fundamental in any attempt at understanding a text. These are elements
independent of the translator's fancy, which are implied by the text, and
without which the text would not exist... If nevertheless not enough
objectifiable arguments are available, which certainly happens, should we
not say so rather than favor speculation? The fact that we are able to say
so much about cultures very remote from us in time or space (remember
Sumer!) shows that there are some objective statements that can be said
about them.  It is desirable to separate them from others. This is of
course what the better editions accomplish. 

I was also puzzled by B. Kellner's comment on my third point, which was
clearly stated as related to another issue. To put it bluntly, it
addressed questions such as `why should be care about Dharmakiirti when we
have modern theories of perception'? Recall that the relevance of ancient
ideas to modern issues is settled: 

(1) by clarifying what these ideas were (that's where translation, and
other issues addressed in this list are helpful); 

(2) by `amending or updating' ancient conceptions to extract what is true
from them and giving correct justifications to replace flawed arguments,
*and* finally by explaining the origin of what we decide were `errors,'
provided of course the text is not considered to be beyond criticism for
some reason. 

This latter task can be addressed at various levels. `Updating' is made
necessary by the fact that correct conclusions can occasionally be derived
from incorrect premises or by incorrect arguments. 

It may be useful to stress that the establishment of rigorous translation
standards in translation into Western languages has a long history, going
back to editing problems for Western Classics. The application of these
principles to Indian languages is quite natural, and not new. 

                                Satyanad Kichenassamy
                                School of Mathematics
                                University of Minnesota
                                E-mail: kichenas at math.umn.edu
 
 
 



 





From kghosh at ceco.ceco.com  Thu Nov 30 20:03:26 1995
From: kghosh at ceco.ceco.com (kghosh at ceco.ceco.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 14:03:26 -0600
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021893.23782.4133232951316618762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


In the United States, there is an Indian book distributor in the Chicago area 
who sell books by mail order.

The address is:

INDIA BOOK DISTRIBUTORS
513 WEST ST. CHARLES RD., #D
ELMHURST, IL 60126
U.S.A
 





From pb019 at csc.albany.edu  Thu Nov 30 08:43:34 1995
From: pb019 at csc.albany.edu (pb019 at csc.albany.edu)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 14:43:34 +0600
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021890.23782.8081466802605682539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Why Biblia, Aditya Prakashan, and other fundamentalist publications when
there is a whole neighborhood full of bookshops and publishing houses named
College Street in Calcutta? In fact, in Bengali, the neighborhood is called
"Boi PaaRa" literally meaning neighborhood of books. The people are nice
and would walk an extra mile or two (literally) to fetch your book of
choice.

In late January and early February, there is also a two-week long book fair
in Calcutta that brings in hundreds of publishing houses and booksellers.
One might take advantage of that too. The Calcutta weather is pleasant
during that time.

A few other publishers/booksellers in Calcutta and Dhaka:

1. Parua, Akbaria Market, Bogura, Bangladesh;

2. Pathak Samabesh, 17/a Aziz Market, Shahbag, Dhaka, Bangladesh;

3. Ekushe,  13/1 Bankim chatterjee Street. Calcutta 700073.

4. University Publications, University of Calcutta, College Street,
Calcutta 700 073, India.


 





From wagers at computek.net  Thu Nov 30 21:04:56 1995
From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 15:04:56 -0600
Subject: Dott. Enrica Garzilli's Complaint
Message-ID: <161227021896.23782.14195124441638237965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members:

Dott. Enrica Garzilli's second writes ...

>- The USENET NEWSGROUP CREATION COMPANION, an official document available
>  from ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/creating-newsgroups/helper states
>  clearly that, before including a mailing list in a CFV, the proponent
>  should make sure that most of the members of the mailing list are able to
>  receive and read the proposed group. I do not recall Mr. Wagers doing
>  that.

The proposed newsgroup - sci.philosophy.natural - will be accessible
through a, as yet unidentified, gateway; therefore, anyone with e-mail
access can participate. I have received requests for voting and other
information from list members.

>  He MUST include the complete CFV, if he wants to involve a mailing list
>  in his newsgroup proposal!

Well, here I have the option of following the guide or the advice of the
experienced, neutral votetaker and mentor. As a matter of fact, proponents
are routinely advised to post *pointers* to RFDs, CFVs, and FAQs whenver
possible, in order to minimize the impact on mailing lists and newsgroups.
There is much precedent for the procedure. I have done this. Surely, in
view of your reference to "bandwidth and mailbox estate", this makes sense.

>  At the same time, the flood of personal messages (some of them empty)
>  advertising his CFV that Mr. Wagers addressed to several people
>  interested in his mailing list project are irregular.

I still don't know to what this refers. On one occasion, I posted to a
private mailing list. A mail server error on my service provider pumped out
up to *thirty* copies of my e-mail before I discovered what was happening
and could get the service provider to correct it. Most experienced users
recognized the problem and reported it to me. I did have to unruffle a few
feathers of more recent or casual users, e.g. new students. However, Dott.
Enrica Garzilli never complained, so I assumed was unaffected. Could this
be the true source of the complaint? If so, we are dealing with a quite
belated and imagined injury. I was in no way responsible for the server
error, and did everything possible to correct and explain the problem.

>As Mr. Wagers wrote in his reply to Dott. Garzilli's complaint:
>"I corresponded, as I recall, on one day with Dott. Enrica Garzilli when
>looking for a host for a mailing list. The correspondence would have
>consisted of a single, brief enquiry from me, but Dott. Enrica Garzilli
>kept insisting for more information from me (while bringing me up to date
>on netiquette)."

>Instead, she offered our help and asked him some questions, in
>order to know more about the person she was going to work with. I am not
>good in academic politics, but I find Dott. Garzilli's replies perfectly
>legitimate and helpful.

I made no statement to the contrary. In fact, I am quite puzzled by the
change in attitudes from that correspondence to this. Also, I am not an
academician, so the responsibility for "academic politics" must lie
elsewhere.

>After Mr. Wagers' requires, we asked our service provider for the cost and
>technical questions involved in creating a mailing list, we devoted part
>of our precious time ...

*All* our times are precious. I am hoping too precious to continue this.

> Unfortunately, we never got a reply from Mr. Wagers.

Is this about an imagined snub? I kept the offer on file, waiting merely to
make a decision. I might have responded sooner had I not been somewhat
befuddled by our previous comminications.

I apologize for not responding to Dott. Enrica Garzilli's offer sooner - I
shall do so now, off-list. I did not mean to offend the kind and generous
efforts on my behalf. I was simply trying to make a decision before
responding.

I also apologize - as I have had to do many times - for the mail server
error which resulted in inconvenience, confusion, and even expense to some
of my most frequent, and, therefore, favorite correspondents.

I reiterate my offer to discuss off-list any suggestions anyone may have
for improving communication with the list. I hope, for all our sakes, that
Dott. Enrica Garzilli and Arch. Ludovico Magnocavallo will avail themselves
of the offer and avoid troubling the list further.

Sincerely,

Will

BTW: Arch. Ludovico Magnocavallo's quote couldn't be more appropriate:

>   Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics,
>   because the stakes are so low.
>                              Wallace Sayre


 





From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no  Thu Nov 30 15:00:33 1995
From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:00:33 +0100
Subject: Retransmission of possibly lost or partly lost message
Message-ID: <161227021878.23782.16715790670561226245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some says ago I sent the message appearing below to Indology. I got a
message telling me that it had been lost (or partly lost) during
transmission. Mr. Achar seems to have got it, because he answered me.
However, if anybody else is interested in the discussion, I send it once
more:

                        *************************


B. N. Narahari Achar wrote:

       The concept of gods and deities in the Vedas and Puranas is quite
>unique.   The vedic gods do not have a material body, they are "ichchaa
>ruupinaha", they can assume any form they want.   They are "amaraaha" and
>"nirjaraaha", they do not die, nor do they age.   "manushya dharma", the dharma
>of the humans does not apply to them.   These points are made clear in
>Brihaddevata or in Nirukta, essential readings for any study of the Vedas.
>Ms Doniger dismisses these as disclaimers and embarks on her Freudian thesis.

I am afraid that the concept of gods and deities in Vedas is not quite as
unique as it is assumed here. Most of the qualities cited are part and
parcel of all ancient Indo-European mythologies. E.g. both ancient Greek
and Nordic gods can change into any shape they want, and do so frequently.

>        The human like relationships attributed to gods are only figurative.
>When water vaporizes in to steam, Vayu is born out of Varuna.   But, when vapor
>condenses to form clouds and then rain water, it is Varuna who is born out of
>Vayu.  When sound emerges from Brahma, Vac or Saraswati is born out of Brahma.
>
>So, she is his daughter.   The unity of sabda with Brahma is described as the
>wedding of Saraswati with Brahma.   This should not be treated as incestual
>relationship in human terms.

It seems hard to interpret Rudra's arrow against Prajapati as anything but
a punishment for a real offense. I should think that the strictly symbolic
interpretation of Vedic mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of
thinking.

>        Vaidic religion is a living religion.   It is quite offensive for
>persons following that religion to see their most revered texts and gods whom
>they worship being treated in Freudian terms a la Ms. Doniger,alternate and
>more satisfactory explanations not withstanding, all under the garb of
>academic scholarship.

There has for the last two hundred years been an almost constant conflict
between science/scholarship on the one hand and religion on the other. The
annoyance expressed by Mr. Achab has also been expressed by e.g. Christian
theologians, who had to see their most revered truths analysed in the same
kind of scholarly language, not necessarily Freudian, but nevertheless
offensive to them. We live in a world with free speech, and the right to
analyse and criticize ideologies and religions is a part of the Western
academic culture. This does not necessarily mean that the analyses or
criticisms are correct and fair, but the freedom to make them is as
fundamental as the freedom of people to worship God according to their own
ideas. Personally, I find many religions ideas offensive, but I don't
complain about other people expressing them as long as I may express my own
ideas. We simply have to live with the fact that people have a right to
express their view, whether we feel hurt or not. People who feel secure
about their beliefs usually can take quite a bit of criticism or irreverent
language without getting too upset.


Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse





Lars Martin Fosse
Research Fellow
Department of East European
and Oriental Studies
P. O. Box 1030, Blindern
N-0315 OSLO Norway

Tel: +47 22 85 68 48
Fax: +47 22 85 41 40

E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no


 





From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp  Thu Nov 30 07:40:45 1995
From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:40:45 +0900
Subject: new translations
Message-ID: <161227021870.23782.18316273497528799328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Satyanad Kichenassamy slightly misunderstood me: 

>This is further to B. Kellner's comments. Her final piece of advice
> "do not read anything into the text which is not there" cannot be
>stressed too strongly. The following comments wmay be relevant.

It was not my piece of advice, but one I got repeatedly, and I find it
increasingly less useful. In other words: I reject or criticize this piece
of advice, I do not condone it. 

>(1) I think most of us would agree that there is such a thing as a
>`scientific translation.' It is one which aims at conveying the intent of
>the author as far as it has been reconstructed, AND NOTHING ELSE. There is
>another kind, which aims at expressing the creative reaction of the
>translator to the work of another. Several poets have tried their hand at
>the latter. They are interesting and informative, as any other literary
>production is, for the light they shed on their author and his/her own
>context. They may be one of the means for ideas from one culture to be
>(deformed and) assimilated into another. As far as Indian Studies are
>concerned, it seems that it is desirable first and foremost to try to
>understand what the texts mean. 

This suggests that there is a type of translation which is more mechanical
than another, less creative, and sort of shuts off the translator's own
ideas during a machine-like process of copying chunks of meaning from one
language into the other. Every translation presupposes a process of
understanding a text. I consider understanding a text to be much more than
merely passive reception - it is a creative process, indeed, and trying to
get one's own understanding into one's own words, which nevertheless
translate the original text, is creative, too, which doesn't mean that it
can't be scientific in the sense of being accurate, documented and
objectifiable. 

The same holds for the requirement that nothing but the intent of the author
should be conveyed in a scientific translation. First of all, the provision
"as far as it has been reconstructed" already shows that the access to
auctorial intention is not straightforward. Also, an author's intention is
necessarily uniform. He might want to comment on another author's text in
one passage, direct nasty remarks against opponents in the next and simply
drift off into his own thoughts in the third. 

>Indian philosophers used freely
>the scientific knowledge of their time in their work, and there is no
>reason why we cannot do the same, updating or amending their arguments as
>necessary. Of course, it is but too easy to detect scientific errors in 
>philosophical and religious texts of all cultures...that does not mean 
>that philosophy and religion do not deal with very real problems.

So what, then, is the use of a translation when you freely update or amend
their arguments? Why bother translating in the first place? This approach is
also at odds with your previously expressed requirement that translations
should maintain the intention of the author. Intentions are bound to
particular historical circumstances and linked to specific target-audiences.
If you update Dharmakiirtian ideas into theories of computer-vision, you may
arrive at indeed creative interpretations, but you do not translate anymore. 

Birgit Kellner
Institute for Indian Philosophy
University of Hiroshima

 





From Peter.Schalk at relhist.uu.se  Thu Nov 30 12:06:45 1995
From: Peter.Schalk at relhist.uu.se (Peter.Schalk at relhist.uu.se)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 17:36:45 +0530
Subject: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES -- Vol. 1, No. 1 (ISSN
Message-ID: <161227021881.23782.6321973790017763957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Jag tror att Eva R aer intresserad av detta nedan.
Tyvaer kunde vi inte ge Heideh Ghomi den fraemsta platsen. Jag hoppas att
du kan komma oever din besvikelse. Har du laest vart yttrande?
Haelsningar
Peter

*****

At 8:31 PM 30/11/95, Partha Banerjee wrote:
>Glad to hear that the journal is out.
>
>It would probably be a good idea to relay the message to the following ng
>address:
>
>third-world-women at jefferson.village.virginia.edu.
>
>To subscribe, email Radhika Gajjala at <gajjala+ at pitt.edu>.
>
>The input of third world women would be helpful. And interesting too.
>
>
>-Partha Banerjee
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Dear Friends and Colleagues,
>>I am very pleased to inform you that the
>>first issue of the JOURNAL  OF  SOUTH  ASIA  WOMEN  STUDIES has been
>>published.
>>
>>IN THIS ISSUE:
>>
>>- NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
>>- A DEB....
>>- PAPERS: * A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on
>>            Women and Social Change *, by Sita Kapadia
>>          * Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable
>>            Solution of Dowry Problem in India? *, by
>>            Subhadra Chaturvedi
>>- NEW TITLES
>>
>>ABSTRACTS:
>>In her paper Dr. Kapadia offers a survey of an
>>aspect of Gandhi's thought which has not exhaustively been
>>investigated: his view of womanhood and the social and political
>>role of women.
>>The second paper is entitled *Whether Inheritance to Women is a
>>Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India?*, by Ms. Subhadra
>>Chaturvedi, Advocate at the Supreme Court of India.
>>Ms. Chaturvedi offers a statistic of the reported crimes against
>>women in India, and especially against brides. She also gives her legal
>>point of view on women's inheritance and on the Indian National
>>Perspective Plan for women 1988-2000 A.D.
>>
>>In a few days you will be able to find this issue at:
>>
>>WWW: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/
>>FTP: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/
>>
>>or subscribing to:
>>jsaws-request at shore.net
>>
>>
>>Thank you
>>
>>Dott. Enrica Garzilli
>>Editor-in-Chief
>>
>
>
>


 





From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk  Thu Nov 30 22:50:18 1995
From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 17:50:18 -0500
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021887.23782.6288707263740306667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>I would  particularly recommend : Biblia Impex, 2/18 Ansari Road, New 
> Delhi

I was rather surprised last year when I visited Biblia Impex for the
first time, to discover that the proprietor holds strongly-felt
right-wing Hindu fundamentalist views.  He also publishes many
well-known titles such as "The Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India",
the two-volume "Hindu Temples: What Happened to them" by Sita Ram Goel
et al. (which lists mosques across India that are claimed to be built
out of the ruin of Hindu temples, and which should therefore be torn
down), and Koenraad Elst's "Ram Janmabhoomi vs. Babri Masjid: A case
study in Hindu-Muslim conflict" which has already been discussed on
INDOLOGY ("Pretending to be a 'persecuted and frightened minority,'
Muslims have wrested one concession after another from politicians who
swear by what passes for secularism in this country." -- blurb).  

Many books of this ilk appear under the "Aditya Prakashan" and "Voice
of India" publishing lables, which are imprints of Biblia Impex.

Actually, I rather liked the proprietor, though I couldn't disagree
more with
his political philosophy.  We had a stand-up row in his shop on this
topic, but parted very amicably (only in India!).  However, with the
wide choice of excellent book dealers in Delhi (Munshram Manoharlal,
Motilal Banarsidass, etc.), I find I personally prefer not to give my
custom to a business which funds VHP/BJP propaganda.

Dominik

Dr Dominik Wujastyk
 


>?From ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu 30 95 Nov CST6CDT 12:12:39
Date:         30 Nov 95 12:12:39 CST6CDT
From: Andrew Cohen <ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu>
Subject:      Re: Booksellers

> I would  particularly recommend : Biblia Impex, 2/18 Ansari Road, New Delhi
> - 110 002 ; fax (11) 3282047.
>
> Regards,
> Raffaele Torella

    If you are making your way to Ansari Road, then I recommend you
also see another respected publisher and distributor:
Manohar Publishers and Distributors
2/6 Ansari Rd
Daryaganj, New Delhi 110 002
tel: 3275162, 3262796; fax: 326 5162

Cheers
Andrew Cohen
 





From torella at axrma.uniroma1.it  Thu Nov 30 17:28:47 1995
From: torella at axrma.uniroma1.it (torella at axrma.uniroma1.it)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 18:28:47 +0100
Subject: Booksellers
Message-ID: <161227021883.23782.828715163242667821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Indologists,
>
>
>I work at the Warburg Institute Library and I am very keen to strenghten
>our holdings related to East-West relationships up to about 1700.
>For this purpose I wonder if anyone on this list could suggest the name
>and address of some reliable Indian booksellers from whom I could obtain
>lists of recent publications.
>
>                Many thanks in advance.
>
>                Francois Quiviger


I would  particularly recommend : Biblia Impex, 2/18 Ansari Road, New Delhi
- 110 002 ; fax (11) 3282047.

Regards,
Raffaele Torella

Raffaele Torella,
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali,
Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza".


 





From ludo at sli2.starlink.it  Thu Nov 30 18:47:59 1995
From: ludo at sli2.starlink.it (Ludo)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 19:47:59 +0100
Subject: Dott Garzilli's complaint
Message-ID: <161227021889.23782.8708360030404926443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I kept silent for a while, following the thread on the new usenet group 
proposed by Mr. Wagers, not wanting to waste more bandwidth and mailbox 
estate, but as Mr. Wagers insists on posting about his proposal, I think 
that some clarifications are needed.
Mr. Wagers messages in response to Dr. Garzilli's complaint raise two 
different questions:

1 - Netiquette

There is a set of rules and customs which control the creation of a new 
Usenet group. Mr. Wagers has violated some of them.

- The USENET NEWSGROUP CREATION COMPANION, an official document available 
  from ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/creating-newsgroups/helper states 
  clearly that, before including a mailing list in a CFV, the proponent 
  should make sure that most of the members of the mailing list are able to 
  receive and read the proposed group. I do not recall Mr. Wagers doing 
  that.

- The same document states that the proponent should make sure that 
  "the CFV posted to the mailing list is the one which appears in 
  news.announce.newgroups, or the votes received will be invalid.".
  Another official document, HOW TO CREATE A USENET NEWSGROUP, available
  from ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/creating-newsgroups/part1 states that
  "A couple of repeats of the call for votes may be posted during the
  vote, provided that they contain similar clear, unbiased instructions for
  casting a vote as the original, and provided that it is really a repeat
  of the call for votes on the SAME proposal."
  Mr. Wagers's posting to Indology of November 29 (Subject: Re: new 
  translations) does not appear to conform to those rules. The subject 
  of his posting, and the content of the message are highly irregular. 
  Moreover, in his reply to Dott. Garzilli's message he wrote "I was 
  advised by my votetaker that, instead, I should post notices of the CFV 
  to the relevant mailing lists. This is what I have done. (BTW: the
  automatically-posted notices are much longer, including the complete 
  CFV.)"
  He MUST include the complete CFV, if he wants to involve a mailing list
  in his newsgroup proposal!
  At the same time, the flood of personal messages (some of them empty) 
  advertising his CFV that Mr. Wagers addressed to several people 
  interested in his mailing list project are irregular.

2 - Mr Wagers's requests for help

As the Technical Editor of Dott. Garzilli's Journals I have been involved
in Mr. Wagers's requests (yes, more than one!) for help addressed to Dott. 
Garzilli.  
As Mr. Wagers wrote in his reply to Dott. Garzilli's complaint:
"I corresponded, as I recall, on one day with Dott. Enrica Garzilli when
looking for a host for a mailing list. The correspondence would have
consisted of a single, brief enquiry from me, but Dott. Enrica Garzilli
kept insisting for more information from me (while bringing me up to date
on netiquette)."

The correspondence would have consisted of a single, brief reply IF Dott. 
Garzilli had not been willing to cooperate with MR. Wagers, and 
offer him some help and technical resources. 
Instead, she offered our help and asked him some questions, in 
order to know more about the person she was going to work with. I am not 
good in academic politics, but I find Dott. Garzilli's replies perfectly 
legitimate and helpful. After Mr. Wagers' requires, we asked our service 
provider for the cost and 
technical questions involved in creating a mailing list, we devoted part 
of our precious time to figure out how, and if, such a list could be 
set up, and at which costs. Unfortunately, we never got a reply from Mr. 
Wagers. Maybe after his CFV, he was too busy promoting his new group to  
"handle requests [read: offers] for advice or help with respect and 
graciousness."

Arch. Ludovico Magnocavallo

***************************************************************************
   Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, 
   because the stakes are so low.
                              Wallace Sayre
***************************************************************************