From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Thu Jun 1 00:12:12 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 95 00:12:12 +0000 Subject: Does Claudius Nenninger have e-mail? Message-ID: <161227019591.23782.11907886734512471556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does Claudius Nenninger in Hamburg have a personal e-mail-address, would it be reasonable to send e-mail for him to somebody else in Hamburg, or should I just sit down to write him a letter? Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Thu Jun 1 09:25:52 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 95 10:25:52 +0100 Subject: I.V. Peterson's address Message-ID: <161227019595.23782.7533292579348162172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My most sincere thanks to the many people who sent me Peterson's addresses. Harunaga Isaacson isaacson at let.rug.nl From HP at soas.ac.uk Thu Jun 1 13:07:38 1995 From: HP at soas.ac.uk (HP at soas.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 95 13:07:38 +0000 Subject: lotusses, lac, ityaadi Message-ID: <161227019596.23782.18273305752549075792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues and friends, Two questions: the first is another of these queries for the etymology specialists, the second leads back to the discussion re lotusses and the moon, which bloomed open on the internet a while ago. 1. Does anybody on the list have an opinion about the etymology of the following Braj Bhasha/Hindi words: MAHAAVARA (red lac with which the feet are dyed; is it as straightforward as it seems (mahaa+vara), and has anybody come across an attestation in that meaning?) LAHAMGAA (women's skirt; related to *langapatta?) NAKABESARI (nosering; *nakka +?) the dance terms "TIRAPA" (tri+?) and "SULAPA"? 2. Is the blue lotus flower called vanaja (Skt)/ vanajaati (Braj) a day or night lotus? Any suggestions are much appreciated. Heidi Pauwels (hpauwels at clus1.ulcc.ac.uk) Heidi Pauwels Lecturer in Hindi SOAS/ University of London From Kalyans at aol.com Fri Jun 2 04:52:43 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 00:52:43 -0400 Subject: Wilson's work: Stanford Library Message-ID: <161227019598.23782.4021785593787587004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in acquiring the following out-of-print book; indology members may kindly help me with contact numbers or email of booksellers who may be able to sell me a copy: H.H.Wilson, A GLOSSARY OF JUDICIAL AND REVENUE TERMS and of useful words occurring in offocial documents relating to the administration of the government of British India from the Arabic, Persian, Hindustani, Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali, uriya, marathi, guzarathi, telugu, karnata, tamil, malayalam, and other languages, W.H.Allen and Co., London, MDCCCLV (1855) kalyans at aol.com From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Fri Jun 2 09:50:54 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 09:50:54 +0000 Subject: JBE Publication News, June 1, 1995 Message-ID: <161227019600.23782.9410321593792958971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------------------------------- JOURNAL OF BUDDHIST ETHICS ----------------------------------------------- GENERAL EDITORS Damien Keown and Charles S. Prebish TECHNICAL EDITOR Wayne Husted EDITORIAL BOARD Masao Abe, George Bond, David Chappell, Lance Cousins, Richard Gombrich, Charles Hallisey, Richard Hayes, Christopher Ives, Leslie Kawamura, Winston King, Reginald Ray, Robert Thurman, Paul Williams. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics is pleased to announce the publication of: A BUDDHIST RESPONSE TO THE NATURE OF HUMAN RIGHTS by Kenneth Inada. Vol. 2 (1995) pp.55-66. Filename: Inada.txt. Publication date: 1st June 1995 [Note: this article is also available in HTML and (experimentally) the cross-platform Adobe Acrobat format from the journal's WWW sites on 2nd June, 1995]. All enquiries to jbe-ed at psu.edu ---------------------------------------------- NEW MEMBER APPOINTED TO EDITORIAL BOARD The Journal of Buddhist Ethics is very pleased to welcome LANCE COUSINS to the Editorial Board. Long respected as one of the world's foremost scholars of Pali Buddhist materials, he is widely published and acclaimed for his work on the early Buddhist tradition. Lance will be giving a paper entitled "Going beyond good and evil?" at the Seventh International Seminar on Buddhism and Leadership for Peace in Honolulu, June 3-8. ---------------------------------------------- ANNOUNCEMENT The General Editors and Technical Editor of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics will be presenting a Special Topics Forum at the forthcoming Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Religion, to be held in Philadelphia in November 1995. The session is scheduled for Saturday, November 18th, 3:45-6:15 p.m. Electronic Publication: Academic Journals in Religious Studies Presiding: Charles S. Prebish, Pennsylvania State University Presenter: Wayne R. Husted, Pennsylvania State University Presenter: Damien Keown, Goldsmiths College (University of London) Description: The use of emerging technologies for teaching and research in Religious Studies is a topic that is rapidly gaining interest among scholars. In particular, electronic publication via the Internet has received much recent attention. While interest in academic publication in Religious Studies is growing, the use actually made of this technology is currently minimal. This may well be in part due to many scholars' unfamiliarity with the medium. Consequently, this Special Topics Firum will introduce scholars to the specifics of creating scholarly, electronic journals in Religious Studies, focusing on the Journal of Buddhist Ethics, the first such journal in the field. The session will emphasize not only the technologies involved, but also the processes by which an editorial board can be constructed, manuscripts solicited, and a subscriber base established. The presenters and presiding member of this experimental session represent the primary editorial staff of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics. From magier at columbia.edu Fri Jun 2 14:16:26 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 10:16:26 -0400 Subject: Wilson's work: Stanford Library Message-ID: <161227019601.23782.890595225597301224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am interested in acquiring the following out-of-print book; indology > members may kindly help me with contact numbers or email of booksellers who > may be able to sell me a copy: > > H.H.Wilson, A GLOSSARY OF JUDICIAL AND REVENUE TERMS and of useful words > occurring in offocial documents relating to the administration of the > government of British India from the Arabic, Persian, Hindustani, Sanskrit, > Hindi, Bengali, uriya, marathi, guzarathi, telugu, karnata, tamil, malayalam, > and other languages, W.H.Allen and Co., London, MDCCCLV (1855) > > kalyans at aol.com > > The book was reprinted in Delhi (Munshiram Manoharlal) in 1968, and in Islamabad (Muqtadirah-yi Qaum_i Zab_an) in 1985. Hope this helps. David Magier From Kalyans at aol.com Fri Jun 2 15:49:44 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 11:49:44 -0400 Subject: Wilson's 1855 work: reprints Message-ID: <161227019603.23782.9562785797380192882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What a great group indology members are: I got a response to the following query promptly and with a lot of kindness: Reprints are: 1968, by Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi and 1985 by Muqtadirah-yI Qaumi ZabAn, Islamabad. I am deeply grateful for this information proovided to me by Jage and Magier. I may add, that this Wilson's work is a pioneering and an outstanding contribution to indology (etyma of lingua franca in particular) made by the East India Company. "I am interested in acquiring the following out-of-print book; indology members may kindly help me with contact numbers or email of booksellers who may be able to sell me a copy: H.H.Wilson, A GLOSSARY OF JUDICIAL AND REVENUE TERMS and of useful words occurring in offocial documents relating to the administration of the government of British India from the Arabic, Persian, Hindustani, Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali, uriya, marathi, guzarathi, telugu, karnata, tamil, malayalam, and other languages, W.H.Allen and Co., London, MDCCCLV (1855)" From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Sat Jun 3 14:36:07 1995 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 07:36:07 -0700 Subject: New Message. Message-ID: <161227019604.23782.11528066160593187782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: June 3, 1995 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, For a paper I am writing I would like to know where I could find a good discussion of descent (clans, lineage, kula, wamsa, etc.) from the sun and the moon in ancient (vedic, kavya, puranic, sastric, sangam) Indian literature. I'm sure there is a vast amount to be found in various primary sources, but what I would like for the present, at least, is secondary sources with good discussion and references. Can anyone help? The paper, for those who may be interested, will be on a South Indian community called Gollas ("cowherders") and representations of dual oppositions. Hopefully, it will be presented at the 1995 Madison South Asia Conference, but I would be happy to mail (by post because it contains photos and diagrams) to those who would like to have a copy. Peter J. Claus fax: 510-727-2276 Phone: 510-704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Sat Jun 3 14:37:13 1995 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 07:37:13 -0700 Subject: New Message. Message-ID: <161227019606.23782.8123319663318935001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: June 3, 1995 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk At the end of May Andrew O. Fort wrote about a course he was teaching: "Just a note to those interested in a variety of epic "versions" or "tellings": I teach a course called "India: Texts and Traditions" which focuses on different versions of the Raamaayana and Mahaabhaarata." I would like to remind him and others on the list that there are a vast number of other epic traditions on the sub-continent and one need not limit oneself to the two literary classics. Students could be introduced to others by refence to _Oral Epics In India_, ed. by Stuart Blackburn, et. al., University of California Press, Berkeley, 1989. Comparison of the oral and literary epic tradition puts many aspects of South Asian civilization into a more fruitful perspective. Peter J. Claus fax: 510-727-2276 Phone: 510-704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From hipbone at earthlink.net Sat Jun 3 17:35:14 1995 From: hipbone at earthlink.net (hipbone at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 09:35:14 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227019607.23782.10363275028023560012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am currently working on a presentation dealing with the mythic background of nuclear weaponry, and have come across some references to weaponry in the Mahabharata that seem promising. Much though I love the MB, it's not a document that I'm deeply familiar with: I have access to the van Buitenen translation, but unfortunately it's incomplete, and in any case the indices are limited to proper names. So I have my memories of the Peter Brook theatrical production, Buck's version, and the van Buitenen Books 1-5 plus the Gita to work from, and I'd really appreciate some help from someone who knows the material better than I. * Charles Berlitz, who is not perhaps the most scholarly of authors, in his book *Doomsday 1999* cites Robert Oppenheimer (of the Manhattan Project) as answering an inquiry from a student at Rochester University thus: Student: Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated? Dr. Oppenheimer: Well -- yes. In modern times, of course. Berlitz goes on to quote a number of passages from the Mahabharata that describe the impact of a weapon that I suspect must be the brahmaastra, although he neither names the weapon nor cites those sections of the text from which his quotations are drawn (he lists Protap Chandra Roy's translation of 1889 in his bibliography): ...a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame As bright as ten thousand Suns Rose in all its splendor... ...it was an unknown weapon, An iron thunderbolt, A gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The Entiure race of the Vrishnis and thr Andhakas. ...the corpses were so burned As to be unrecognizable. Their hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause, And the birds turned white. After a few hours All foodstuffs were infected... ...To escape from this fire The soldiers threw themselves in streams To wash themselves and their equipment... My first questions would have to do with these passages: can anyone tell me whether they are in fact passages from the MB, and if possible supply me with the relevant locations? If they are poor translations, can anyone suggest a source for superior versions? And do these particular passages refer to the Brahmaastra, or Pasupata, or some other weapon? * Two other questions, briefly: Can anyone explain to me why Krishna instructed Arjuna and the Pandava forces to lie down when Asvatthaman fired his missile and "not resist it with their minds" as its force passed over them? What manner of weapon was this? And what was the point in the story (I remember it so vividly from the play) at which Arjuna fired and arrow which was personally carried to its recipient by Krishna? * With thanks for any and all assistance, -- Charles Charles Cameron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hipbone at earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" From hipbone at earthlink.net Sat Jun 3 17:41:11 1995 From: hipbone at earthlink.net (hipbone at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 09:41:11 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Weaponry in Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227019609.23782.18291696412398009150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> I am currently working on a presentation dealing with the mythic background of nuclear weaponry, and have come across some references to weaponry in the Mahabharata that seem promising. Much though I love the MB, it's not a document that I'm deeply familiar with: I have access to the van Buitenen translation, but unfortunately it's incomplete, and in any case the indices are limited to proper names. So I have my memories of the Peter Brook theatrical production, Buck's version, and the van Buitenen Books 1-5 plus the Gita to work from, and I'd really appreciate some help from someone who knows the material better than I. * Charles Berlitz, who is not perhaps the most scholarly of authors, in his book *Doomsday 1999* cites Robert Oppenheimer (of the Manhattan Project) as answering an inquiry from a student at Rochester University thus: Student: Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated? Dr. Oppenheimer: Well -- yes. In modern times, of course. Berlitz goes on to quote a number of passages from the Mahabharata that describe the impact of a weapon that I suspect must be the brahmaastra, although he neither names the weapon nor cites those sections of the text from which his quotations are drawn (he lists Protap Chandra Roy's translation of 1889 in his bibliography): ...a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame As bright as ten thousand Suns Rose in all its splendor... ...it was an unknown weapon, An iron thunderbolt, A gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The Entiure race of the Vrishnis and thr Andhakas. ...the corpses were so burned As to be unrecognizable. Their hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause, And the birds turned white. After a few hours All foodstuffs were infected... ...To escape from this fire The soldiers threw themselves in streams To wash themselves and their equipment... My first questions would have to do with these passages: can anyone tell me whether they are in fact passages from the MB, and if possible supply me with the relevant locations? If they are poor translations, can anyone suggest a source for superior versions? And do these particular passages refer to the Brahmaastra, or Pasupata, or some other weapon? * Two other questions, briefly: Can anyone explain to me why Krishna instructed Arjuna and the Pandava forces to lie down when Asvatthaman fired his missile and "not resist it with their minds" as its force passed over them? What manner of weapon was this? And what was the point in the story (I remember it so vividly from the play) at which Arjuna fired and arrow which was personally carried to its recipient by Krishna? * With thanks for any and all assistance, -- Charles Charles Cameron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hipbone at earthlink.net "a virtual music of ideas" From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Sat Jun 3 20:02:23 1995 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 20:02:23 +0000 Subject: electronic *INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES* Message-ID: <161227019610.23782.12953009041232139073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> |.......................... |> The home page on WWW is found at: |http://arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ | | WWW pages will be created by June 7, 1995. | |Dott. Enrica Garzilli |garzilli at husc.harvard.edu |................................ Greetings: As you mention, this URL is not yet working. Please do advise us when it is working, thank you. Om Namasivaya sadhu From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Sun Jun 4 18:05:42 1995 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 95 20:05:42 +0200 Subject: Urdu textbook for children Message-ID: <161227019612.23782.11707849145722505802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members of the Indology Net: I am looking for a textbook or textbooks that teach basic Urdu to a child of seven whose mother tongue is English. He knows some Urdu, but probably not enough to be able to use the dual language readers of the sort that are available here and in the U.K. He does not know the Urdu writing system. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thank you. Ruth Schmidt Dept. of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O.B. 1030 Blindern N-0315 OSLO, Norway Phone: 47-22-85-55-86 Fax: 47-22-85-41-40 Email: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no From Archer at maroon.tc.umn.edu Mon Jun 5 03:08:44 1995 From: Archer at maroon.tc.umn.edu (John Archer) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 95 22:08:44 -0500 Subject: Wilson's 1855 work: reprints Message-ID: <161227019613.23782.6111466703796140425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in H.H.Wilson's GLOSSARY OF JUDICIAL AND REVENUE TERMS, 1855, etc., may wish to know of the following: Wilson, H. H. A Glossary of Judicial and Revenue Terms and of Useful Words Occurring in Official Documents Relating to the Administration of the Government of British India. Case-noted, enlarged ed. Ed. A. C. Ganguli and N. D. Basu. Calcutta: Eastern Law House, 1940. This is a much expanded edition, and to my mind much more useful on a variety of topics. To my knowledge it was never reprinted. It is, therefore, correspondingly more difficult to locate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Archer / archer at maroon.tc.umn.edu / 612-624-3830 / Director of Graduate Studies: Comparative Studies in Discourse & Society / Director of Graduate Studies: Comparative Literature / Department of Cultural Studies & Comparative Literature / 350 Folwell Hall / University of Minnesota / Minneapolis, MN 55455 / -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU Mon Jun 5 15:49:33 1995 From: malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU (malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 09:49:33 -0600 Subject: Chandra vamsha / Gollas Message-ID: <161227019615.23782.517529178936718631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter J. Claus (pclaus at csuhayward.edu) asked about information about the Solar and the Lunar dynasties, in relation with the Gollas (cowherders). 1. As you probably know, Golla is derived from Sanskrit "Gopaala". gopaala > govaala > gollaa (south), gvaala (north) etc. Once a region of North Indian was called "Golla country" because of the cowherder community. 2. The cowherders claim to be descendents of the Yadavas, an ancient Kshatriya clan (Krishna was born in the Andhaka-VrishNi branch of the Yadava clan). There is some discussion in "Tribes and Castes of the Central Provinces of India" by R.V. Russel and Hiralal about the difference between Ahir (Abhir) and Gopa. I wonder what is Peter's hypotheis about the connection between Gollas and the Lunar/Solar clans. 3. Charts showing branches of Lunar and Solar clans are available in several books. Yashwant K. Malaiya From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Jun 5 23:01:54 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 17:01:54 -0600 Subject: new address, to whom it may concern Message-ID: <161227019617.23782.11481322904873439608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To whom it may concern: effective immediate, new email address, and others: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Office: Department of Comparative Religion Western Michigan University Kalamazoo MI 49008-5013. Tel. 616-387-4399 Fax. 616-387-3999 Home: 4641 Woodland Hills Ct. Kalamazoo MI 49006 Tel. 616-353-8614 Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Tue Jun 6 03:08:18 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 22:08:18 -0500 Subject: Natyanjali - 11 artists perform at Houston Message-ID: <161227019618.23782.10876479661377852211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 5, 1995 Dear Houston area netters, Dr. R. Nagaswamy. Great scholar in Tamil, inscriptions and Sanskrit author of research articles, many books etc., He was Director of Archaeology, Gov. of Tamil nadu for 28 years. Well known art historian of South India. He is the founder of Natyanjali program on every Sivarathri at Chidambaram. It is so popular that about 120 troupes from allover India takepart in that, every year from 1978 onwards. If you have seen the recent movie, Kaadhalan, the heroine goes to Chidambaram to perform at this function. He is visiting Houston Meenakshi temple for a dance program with ten artistes from India. They are doing a performance of the dance dramas: N~aanak kuzhantai (tirun~aana sambandhar) The program is at Rice University, Hamman Hall, on June 11, 1995 (Sunday) at 4 pm. Ticket prices : $ 7, $ 25, $ 50 It will be a memorable program with ancient music (paNN icai). 11 artists from Madras. Please do come and inform about this program to your friends. Yours, n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From Kalyans at aol.com Tue Jun 6 13:09:32 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 09:09:32 -0400 Subject: Soma tradition Message-ID: <161227019620.23782.14409936908556758109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thesis refrain: soma is electrum; vedic references are allegorical. It has been argued elsewhere that somnakay (Gypsy) == soma == sona are valid etyma links. SuvarNa is an example of hyper-Sanskritism. In the context of the vedic tradition, it is interesting to note the following extract from Wilson's glossary (1855): sonAr (Hindi, Marathi), soNI (Gujarati) a goldsmith: applied also as a name of the caste which is said to have sprung from a brahman father and a SUdra mother, being in that case te pArAsava of Manu: among the maraThas there are various subdivisions of the sonAr caste, some of whom disclaim this origin, and pretend to be upa-brahmans, minor brahmans: they wear the brahmanical cord, and claim a right to have the vedas performed in their families by their own priests: they are known as kanAri, panchAla, and kokanasth sonArs... In the Tamil traditon, AcAri (fr. AcArya) is a goldsmith; vEdi- is a sememe for alchemy. [cf. connotation of soma as rasa and rasa-vAda = alchemy (Sanskrit)]. Perhaps, the use of the term rasa led to the later-day interpretations of soma as a drink. kalyans at aol.com From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jun 6 13:19:10 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 14:19:10 +0100 Subject: Forwarded mail... about new Bangalore Listserv Message-ID: <161227019622.23782.14293077212053119997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded message: > From listserv at jnc.iisc.ernet.in Tue Jun 6 09:15:09 1995 > Delivery-Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:15:09 +0100 > Message-Id: > Date: Tue, 6 Jun 95 11:27 GMT > From: listserv at jnc.iisc.ernet.in (List Server) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > PLEASE RECIRCULATE FOR WIDER PUBLICITY !!! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is an announcement about the LISTSERVER facility at the Jawaharlal > Nehru Centre for Adv. Scientific Research, Bangalore-64, India. > > Email: listserv at jnc.iisc.ernet.in > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear friend, > > It has long been felt that we need some common forum in India to keep in > touch, to exchange information, to have lively debate, and most of all, > to learn from other's experience. While we still do not have "usenet news" > easily available in India, we do have electronic mail. > And there is a lot we can do with that! > > We have set up a "listserver" at the Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Adv. > Scientific Research (JNCASR), Bangalore to serve our needs for common > fora, to encourage discussions on various topics. The listserver maintains > a list of topics, and for each topic it maintains a list of addresses > of people who subscribe to that list. You can subscribe to any of the > lists, and can signoff from the same without any problem. When you > subscribe to a list, all postings made to that list will be forwarded > to you. You can also post to any of the lists. Subscribing to lists > that interest you can be more beneficial than you can imagine now. > > To give you a flavour of kind of topics that are already available, > we attach a short list of selected topics at the end. The topics are > designed in line with those in usenet news. This list is by no means > exhaustive. There will be more topics in future. > > > To begin, send a mail to the following address: > > listserv at jnc.iisc.ernet.in > > with a *** single-line *** message that goes like: > > help your-email-address > > for instance: 'help a at b.edu' > > > This will send you all the necessary information to get started using > the listserver. > > So welcome to the electronic round-table! > Its for free! > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > A *** SHORT *** list of some of the available topics > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > alt-jokes general humour > alt-phil philosophy discussion group > chem-org organic chemistry > comp-games computer games > comp-software software related postings > engg-elec electrical engineering > engg-mech mechanical engineering > india-alive discussing life in india in general > india-news general news about india > india-politics indian politics > media-tv television > misc-help postings of anyone asking for HELP(!) and counsel > misc-openmarket general buy-and-sell postings > misc-info "information required" postings > music-hindustani hindustani classical music > music-carnatic carnatic classical music > phy-theoretical theoretical physics > sci-eco ecological science > soc-bengali begali > soc-hindi hindi > soc-kannada kannadigas > soc-tamil tamil > sport-cricket cricket > sport-football football > world-news some world news postings > > ------------------------ end of message ------------------------------ > > From Kalyans at aol.com Wed Jun 7 13:50:53 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 09:50:53 -0400 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019624.23782.8668252100208814573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be grateful for clarifications on the etymon: ayana. This may have significance in the context of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization. Semantically, it signifies a movement or shift; cf. uttarAyaNa, dakshiNAyaNa denoting the winter and summer solstices signified by movement or apparent transition of the sun into the zodiacal signs of cancer and capricorn. These are such important celestial events that festivals are organized on these critical dates. cf. bhogi or rohRi or bhogya of the winter solstice when winter crop produce is apportioned and old clothes, etc. are burnt symbolizing the renewal. This is sankrAnti, a festival of great antiquity across the entire sub-continent. There are homonymous etyma which are linked to property. The key is to unravel the Arabic, Persian or 'Indic' radicals. Ain (Arabic) property actually existing, specific sum or value, the most precious part of property; Ayen (Marathi) = original fixed or standard assessment of the revenue or the lands bearing such assessment. AyaN (Tamil) a general term for the revenue collected on six kinds of produce. Ayah (Sanskrit) = income, profit; Aya, Ayam (Kannada, Tamil) toll, tax, tribute, custom, measurement; in the south, the portion of the crop formerly paid to the hereditary village officers and servants EnukA, yenukA, enukA, yenke (Malayalam [Malabar]) a document of various application, but connected with the transfer of landed property; as, a certificate or acknowledgment from the owner to a lessee or mortgage that he has let or mortgaged his estate; authority to such lessee or mortgagee to transfer his interest to another. cf. AyAn-i-mazmun (Arabic) = things lent or pledged, to be restored, when redeemed, in the same condition as when deposited. But, cf. ayin, ayeen (Hindi) rule, statute, custom. AyIn (Persian) laws, statutes, rules, regulations of secular authority (as distinct from sacred tradition). Kannada has an extraordinary, and definitive etymon which seems to link both the solsticial and property semantics. hainu = the period betweeen May and September--that of the heavy rains; hainu-gadde = wet lands, for sowing rice during the monsoon; hainu-pairu = corn standing in the heavy wet weather. cf. Aya-ketta (Malayalam) = land prepared for cultivation; Ayakallu (Marathi) = rent on government lands in cultivation; Aya-kaTTU (Kannada, Tamil) = settlement, regulation; measurement of lands; account of the total land of a village. The phoneme 'ain' seems to have a homonym which can be depicted pictorially, say, in the Indus script signs or pictorial motifs. ain = five; ayana = svastika symbol (right- or left-handed arms) to picture the solticial shift of the sun's movement on the sky. Perhaps, also with a picture of Ana, yAnai, Enugu (Malayalam, Tamil, Telugu) = elephant. Five svastikas, svastikas (solo) and elephant are some emphatic pictorial motifs of the indus script. I am searching for answers to a number of quesions: Are there cognate etyma in other languages? What are the epigraphical or literary (textual) evidences? What is the evidence in Pali with cognate sememes? Dr. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at aol.com From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Wed Jun 7 15:10:42 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 10:10:42 -0500 Subject: New Book Announcement Message-ID: <161227019625.23782.8587395579204391638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> _Nearness and Respective Correlation: A History of the Interpretations of Astadhyayi 6.1.77: iko yan aci_ Robert A. Hueckstedt Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1995 The publisher's address (they're not on the internet): Harrassowitz Verlag Postfach 2929 D-65019 Wiesbaden Germany Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Wed Jun 7 21:49:53 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 11:49:53 -1000 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019635.23782.13344595467901501028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maybe Dr. Kalyanaraman is just following up a hunch, or the tenuous beginnings of a new idea, in looking for possible links between those etyma. That's what research (as opposed to literature review) is all about, I thought. After all, if Dominik can jump to conclusions, why not give Dr. Kalyanaraman the same privilege? The link between Dr. Kalyanaraman's query, on the one hand, and Hindu fanatics, on the other hand, (as postulated by Dominik) seems more tenuous to me than possible relationships between Sanskrit, Tamil, and Arabic (about which Dr. Kalyanaraman merely asked a question). Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Jun 7 18:31:22 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 13:31:22 -0500 Subject: Sememe, Indus Script and Hindu Fundamentalism Message-ID: <161227019628.23782.7474955183145138247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 7, 1995 Hindu Fundamentalism, Sememes and Indus Script ************************************************ As we know, lots of Hindutva people want to make revisions of Indian history. Their main efforts are directed towards showing that Indus valley civilization is Vedic, Aryans originated in India, and Dravidian languages are derived out of Sanskrit or at the very least, Sanskrit and Dravidian languages originate from the same root! I am no scholar in Sanskrit or prehistoric India. But I know Tamil very well, interested in collecting palm-leaf manuscripts and old books, and have published some important 16th -17th century Tamil prabandhams. I happen to know many Tamil professors, pulavars/vidhvans etc., I know many Dravidianists, both Indian and Western well and in their conversations, they express serious doubts about all this. It seems to me that Hindu elites have a vested interest in this. I know for sure that Tamil/Dravidian languages did not arise out of Sanskrit, though later they all have been heavily influenced by Indo-Aryan, not necessarily beneficial to the languages or the speakers of those languages - all the time. See Asko Parpola, Deciphering the Indus Script, Cambridge university press, 1994 and also Christopher Edens' review, Nature, vol.374, 16 March 1995, pp. 223-224. They suggest Dravidians as the Indus people. In addition, we have a 150 years of solid research starting with Robert Caldwell. All these scholars, over a period of such a long time, could not be wrong. Periodically, Indology listserv gets these Hindutva postings. I completely agree with Dominik. Yours n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Wed Jun 7 20:48:36 1995 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 15:48:36 -0500 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019632.23782.13525273947271062702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that Dominik's reply could have stood on its own without all the oh-so-subtle (NOT!) imputations about political motives behind Dr. Kalyanaraman's inquiries. Regards Srinivas From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Jun 7 22:53:31 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 15:53:31 -0700 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019639.23782.7695069063133025890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Aditya Mishra wrote - > On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Dr Kalyanaraman, --- > step, for every phonological change you mention. It isn't good enough > to throw every word that reminds you of anything similar together in a heap > and call it an argument. And your current posting seems to me -- > an ignorant outsider -- to be just like that. I was on vacation therefore cannot comment on the original post which I have not seen but I do highly disapprove the use of words "ignorant outsider" howsoever illogical Dr Kalyanraman's comments may have been but he must have some credentials to have earned a doctorate and does not deserve ad hominem invectives. > Dominik seems to have used "ignorant outsider" to refer to himself, rather than Kalyanaraman. I also think it is neither polite nor reasonable to ask Westerners for their motives in studying things Indian. What are my motives for studying chem engg in a Western university, inspite of my own Indian heritage? People have their own reasons for what they do in life, and it is somewhat unfair to view today's researchers as being similar to the missionaries of a century ago. That said, I do not think any and every Indian researcher who says something different and unorthodox is part of a Hindutva group. Dr. Kalyanaraman's etyma may be criticized on purely scholarly grounds, but to view this as part of a Hindutva motivated revisionism is uncalled for, in the absence of any evidence. I have read some of Dr. Kalyanaraman's posts on soma and alchemy before, but I haven't seen anything that would brand him a Hindutva-vadi. The mention of Indus/Saraswati in his post is no excuse for this either. It is evident from the Landsat images of the region that most archeological sites lie along the basin of a river that does not exist any more. Purely from an objective standpoint, there is no harm in labelling this as an Indus/Saraswati civilization. Whether the inhabitants of the Saraswati basin were Aryans or Dravidians is a vexed question. I haven't seen any proof from the revisionists that these were the Rg Vedic Aryans. On the other hand, all I have seen from the traditional Indus = Dravidian = Tamil theorists is denial. Both sides engage in tons of circular reasoning to "prove" their points. That the traditional theory has been around for 150 years is no great asset to it. As a scientist, I hate to accept a statement like, "All these great people could not have been wrong". Great scientists like Newton and Einstein were wrong in some of their theories. That does not prevent today's scientists from correcting their wrongs and coming to a better understanding of things. So long as the Indus script is not deciphered satisfactorily, I see little reason to accept either theory as entirely right. This only makes me an objective person. It does not make me part of the Hindutva-vadi crowd, my Indian name notwithstanding. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From als1 at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 7 20:59:31 1995 From: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu (william j alspaugh) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 15:59:31 -0500 Subject: Kaviraj on Aurobindo? Message-ID: <161227019633.23782.8927959001122876934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To members of Indology: One of our patrons at the U. of Chicago library has information that Gopinath Kaviraj has written something on Sri Aurobindo. This might be an article or something in one of Kaviraj's philosophical works. Does anyone have any information on any such writing by Kaviraj? Thanks for any info you can supply. Bill Alspaugh, U. of Chicago South Asia Collection. Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu From a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Wed Jun 7 20:22:27 1995 From: a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya, The Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 16:22:27 -0400 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019630.23782.9473054234505566820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Dr Kalyanaraman, --- > step, for every phonological change you mention. It isn't good enough > to throw every word that reminds you of anything similar together in a heap > and call it an argument. And your current posting seems to me -- > an ignorant outsider -- to be just like that. I was on vacation therefore cannot comment on the original post which I have not seen but I do highly disapprove the use of words "ignorant outsider" howsoever illogical Dr Kalyanraman's comments may have been but he must have some credentials to have earned a doctorate and does not deserve ad hominem invectives. I am also aware of the fact that Dominik is a (the?) founder of this mailing list and may control whatever gets posted here. I would like to know what motivates people not connected with Indian heritage to study "indian scriptures" in the first place. Do they consider this study a part of anthropology and/or a study of primitive cultures in their attempt to look down the Indian culture and religions in general? Is it not a fact that the study of Indology in the west was originally conducted only by christian missionaries who just wanted to ridicule the Indian religions in order to covert the local population into still more irrational christian faith? As is obvious from my mail header, I am not a fanatic of any religion but would not like any one religion being criticized by believers of whatever other faiths. I am also not a supporter of BJP or Hindutva philosophy and more at odds with them than most Indians or Westerners themselves. ************************************************************************* Aditya Mishra | The opinions expressed herein are absolutely * Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 | not immutable and might have already changed * Internet: aditya at gate.net| by time you read them due to the new evidence* Prodigy: TVDS96A | or data that has come to my attention. * ************************************************************************* From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Jun 7 15:42:23 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 16:42:23 +0100 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019627.23782.10848875127597643380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Kalyanaraman, I am not an etymologist, and my interests in Sanskrit are more to do with post-Vedic literature. But I find your messages about etymology extremely puzzling. It may be my ignorance, but as far as I can see, you are connecting together words from completely different languages, with completely different meanings, without reference to the actual history of usage. I cannot see the organizing principal of your thinking about words. Your recent message about "ayana" is a case in point. The Arabic and Dravidian words that you cite have no known historical phonological links with "ayana" and "i" whatsoever. Why do you ignore historical phonology? It is the only key to the history of language change. You also seem to accept some kind of interpretation of the Indus seals, which is not a matter of general agreement. You also mentioned the "Indus/Saraswati civilization", which is, as far as I know, merely code for a right-wing Hindu fundamentalist revision of early South Asian history, and has no referent to any proven or accepted civilization. In other words, I find your postings linguistically perplexing, to say the least, and having unpleasant overtones of Hindu fundamentalism. I doubt if this is the impression you wish to convey about your work. If you want to make headway with your enquiries to this group, I believe you should make use of the existing scholarly tools in the area, such as those created by Burrow, Emmeneau, Turner, and Mayrhofer. I recall that you had some critique of the Burrow+Emmeneau dictionary, but if you disagree wholesale with the substantial body of historical phonological scholarship that has been developed over the last couple of centuries, you have to give your reasons at every step, for every phonological change you mention. It isn't good enough to throw every word that reminds you of anything similar together in a heap and call it an argument. And your current posting seems to me -- an ignorant outsider -- to be just like that. Another valid line, if you wished to eschew western scholarship for some reason, would be to adhere to Paninian grammatical derivations for an understanding of at least the Sanskrit words. Dominik From a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Wed Jun 7 22:56:06 1995 From: a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya, The Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 18:56:06 -0400 Subject: Sememe, Indus Script and Hindu Fundamentalism Message-ID: <161227019637.23782.17359783139825532190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Ganesan wrote: > As we know, lots of Hindutva people want to make revisions of > Indian history. Their main efforts are directed towards > showing that Indus valley civilization is Vedic, Aryans originated > in India, and Dravidian languages are derived out of Sanskrit > or at the very least, Sanskrit and Dravidian languages originate > from the same root! Was it the point of Kalyanraman's note? From his name he does not appear to be a north Indian revisionist and probably he is also a Tamil speaker like you. > me that Hindu elites have a vested interest in this. I know for sure Does this sentence not expose you as having equally vested interest in contradicting any other hypothesis out of the way specially since you admitted that you do not know Sanskrit yourself? > See Asko Parpola, Deciphering the Indus Script, Cambridge university press, > 1994 and also Christopher Edens' review, Nature, vol.374, 16 March 1995, > pp. 223-224. They suggest Dravidians as the Indus people. In addition, > we have a 150 years of solid research starting with Robert Caldwell. All these > scholars, over a period of such a long time, could not be wrong. Is this the only basis of your argument? History has shown that some time a number of scholors can be wrong. You know even a scholors as reputed as Margaret Meade or Cyrill Burt have been proved to have been dishonest and biased. I am no scholor of Indus script but what I have read seems to point out that it is still not completely deciphered. > Periodically, Indology listserv gets these Hindutva postings. ************************************************************************* Aditya Mishra | The opinions expressed herein are absolutely * Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 | not immutable and might have already changed * Internet: aditya at gate.net| by time you read them due to the new evidence* Prodigy: TVDS96A | or data that has come to my attention. * ************************************************************************* As it does get equally anti-hindu postings once in a while. From a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Thu Jun 8 02:54:40 1995 From: a018967t at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya, The Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 22:54:40 -0400 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019641.23782.15505353608192684700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Dominik seems to have used "ignorant outsider" to refer to himself, rather > than Kalyanaraman. This has been drawn to my attention from some one else too. I am sorry that I misunderstood him but due to his sentence construction it could be construed in either way and as a result I did over-react. When I read outsider, I assumed an outsider to this list or the discipline of indology, since I am also an outsider in that sense by not being a professional indologist or a tenured professor. > I also think it is neither polite nor reasonable to ask Westerners for their > motives in studying things Indian. What are my motives for studying > chem engg in a Western university, inspite of my own Indian heritage? People > have their own reasons for what they do in life, and it is somewhat unfair > to view today's researchers as being similar to the missionaries of a century > ago. It surely is reasonable in the same sense that Kalyanramans was accused of being a hindutva motivated scholar as you mention in the rest of your note. Anyway, I have not yet read Kalyanraman's note and would appreciate to see it if some one has saved it and would forward it to me. From Kalyans at aol.com Thu Jun 8 04:36:51 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 00:36:51 -0400 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and pr... Message-ID: <161227019644.23782.11528415296616751270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to have angered Dr. Dominik Wujastyk thanks to my fallibilities as a self-styled etymologist! I apologize for any overtones in my etymological posting caused by any use of inappropriate methodologies or sentences. I certainly do not lay claim to perfect knowledge on the methodologies relevant to date words or even sentences (cf. Bhartrhari's dictum on purveying meaning thru sentences). The problem of dating south asian etyma becomes problematical when we deal with the Harappan civilization (this nomenclature is neutral, I hope!) when a vast historical gap exists between circa 1700 B.C. to the first recorded historical phonologies in, say, Asokan epigraphs of circa 300 BC? (or Vedic texts?) Is it impossible to reconstruct etyma relating to a distant date? Is it inappropriate to read pictographs using homonyms? All epigraphists have done this for ALL DECIPHERED ANCIENT SCRIPTS OF INITIALLY UNKNOWN LANGUAGES. My queries on ayana and ain may sound absurd; but, let me simplify and restate my inquiries: what is the etymology for ayana = solstice (Sanskrit)? what is the etymology for hainu = crop (Kannada)? Is this linked to Tamil Ayam = income? Again, l plead for the indulgence of indology members since these queries are sincerely posed with the ONLY desire to promote the progress of ancient language studies. Re: Dominik's references to Burrow, Emeneau, Mayrhoffer: let me add Turner, Campbell, Wilson, Hoffman. My comparative dictionary of 2500 pages (to be published on CD-ROM by a New York publisher) proposes that MOST Burrow/Emeneau etyma are concordant with Munda and Indo-Aryan etyma. This is a lot of evidence in 8000+ sematic clusters and hundreds of pages of epigraphical evidences, which scholars can feel free to evaluate and refute. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman From reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 8 08:37:29 1995 From: reimann at uclink.berkeley.edu (Luis Arnold Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 01:37:29 -0700 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019650.23782.12206272570952061969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just for clarification. The terms uttarayana and dakshinayana literally mean "the movement (of the Sun) towards the North," and "the movement (of the Sun) towards the South." They refer to the shift in the place of sunrise (and sunset) along the horizon throughout the year. uttarayana is the period between the Winter solstice and the Summer solstice, the ascending half of the year. Dakshinayana is the other, descending half of the year. A solstice, therefore, is the moment when one of these ayanas finishes, an ayananta (end of the ayana). Using the word ayana for referring to a solstice is probably merely an abbreviation of ayananta, and not an indication of the movement (ayana) from one constellation to the next, that is, the samkranti. Although interpreting the term in this sense of transition from one constellation (rashi) to another, specifically into Cancer and Capricorn, sounds reasonable, it seems clear that that is not its early meaning. The Brahmanas often refer to these two halves of the year, in particular (but not only) when dealing with the gavam ayana ritual. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann UC, Berkeley From Kalyans at aol.com Thu Jun 8 06:09:26 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 02:09:26 -0400 Subject: On opposite views Message-ID: <161227019646.23782.7921237970585629022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am re-reading Prof. S.S. Bhawe's work on soma. (Interest? Ancient Etyma!) It contains a striking quote which may be of interest: "While entering upon this task, I am reminded of Prof. A.B.Keith's remarks in his review of Geldner's 'Der Rigveda im Ausahl' JRAS, Vol. XLII, 1910, p.292, viz., "The Rigveda is on the whole a most difficult and obscure work, and progress to its adequate interpretation must needs in large measure be through careful enumeration and criticism of opposite views..."... The more one thinks about it, the more one feels that in this case one may be 'rushing in', where greater scholars have 'feared to tread'. The attempt, however, is done with a view that better work should supplant it." (p.6, edn.1957) Yours truly and most humbly, kalyans at aol.com PS. I will refrain from quoting the vedic hymn inviting thoughts from all sides. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 8 08:53:19 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 09:53:19 +0100 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019653.23782.4534392242324184468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > step, for every phonological change you mention. It isn't good enough > > to throw every word that reminds you of anything similar together in a heap > > and call it an argument. And your current posting seems to me -- > > an ignorant outsider -- to be just like that. > > I was on vacation therefore cannot comment on the original post which I > have not seen but I do highly disapprove the use of words "ignorant outsider" > howsoever illogical Dr Kalyanraman's comments may have been but he must have > some credentials to have earned a doctorate and does not deserve ad > hominem invectives. Dear Aditya, A skeptic is essentially one who looks, who watches carefully. If you look carefully at what I wrote, you may notice that I was insulting myself. This is part of a grand old British tradition, the same tradition which would prevent me from ever even considering being rude to someone in public. Dominik From Kalyans at aol.com Thu Jun 8 13:57:40 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 09:57:40 -0400 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and pr... Message-ID: <161227019655.23782.16977348836617350676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am responding to the reference INDUS_SARASVATI in Dominik's posting. In the Tamil and so-called Aryan traditions, brAhmi was the name of the script used in the early epigraphs. brAhmi in Sanskrit tradition is a synonym for Sarasvati. This river seems to be prominent in the vedic texts and apparently corresponds to the landsat pictures of a dried up river (now called Ghaggar in Haryana, Rajasthan). Harappan civilization sites (though not of the same size and grandeur as Harappa and Mohenjo-daro) abound to the south and east of the Indus river basin [e.g. Rupar, Dholavira, Daimabad (?)]. In view of the identification of large clusters of 'village' sites, and the mounting archaeological evidence of continuity of the civilization into the historical periods, it may be appropriate to enlarge the nomenclature of 'Indus' based on epigraphical/ geographic arguments. Add one more river in a name!! Ganga? Not yet!? I suppose river names for civilizations are NEUTRAL references and are based on the fact that civilizations seem to have flourished on river banks. If these names are 'tainted', using place names to denote as expansive a civilization as 'THIS' may perhaps be 'dated' and restrictively, refer only to the specific archaeological discovery sites early in this century. Some call THIS Harappan, some Indus, some Indus_Sarasvati. Let the social melting-pot (and cherished, great newsgroups like indology) determine which terminology should survive. As a sincere etymologist, I can't say 'What's in a name?' and try to avoid the fundamental objective: advances in philological studies and scholarship in search of our roots. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 8 08:59:17 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 09:59:17 +0100 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019648.23782.5554987003149765546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > The mention of Indus/Saraswati in his post is no excuse for this either. It > is evident from the Landsat images of the region that most archeological > sites lie along the basin of a river that does not exist any more. Purely > from an objective standpoint, there is no harm in labelling this as an > Indus/Saraswati civilization. Perhaps I jumped to an incorrect conclusion. But I have to say that the only historical writings in which I have ever seen the expression "Indus/Saraswati civilization" used are in those of right-wing revisionists. Perhaps there are other publications I have missed where the term is used neutrally. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 8 09:04:46 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 10:04:46 +0100 Subject: Sememe: ayana; sun and property Message-ID: <161227019651.23782.9305089487247485486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > Dominik seems to have used "ignorant outsider" to refer to himself, rather > > than Kalyanaraman. > This has been drawn to my attention from some one else too. I am sorry > that I misunderstood him but due to his sentence construction it could be > construed in either way and as a result I did over-react. My sentence was not ambiguous. Dominik From Kalyans at aol.com Thu Jun 8 14:29:27 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 10:29:27 -0400 Subject: Svastika Message-ID: <161227019656.23782.3686283885391909442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quote from Wilson's glossary: saThIA H., sAthIo Guz. A figure made by Hindu women in place of a signature to written deeds: a kind of figured cross prefixed to account books, and also formed with flour on the ground at marriages and other festivals: a surgeon. I suggest that this refers to a hyper-sanskritism: svastikA. This term has to be elucidated in the search for ancient etyma (and phonetic forms), because the figure is prominent in the Indus-Sarasvati (or Indus) script inscriptions. Any comments? From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Thu Jun 8 20:07:34 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 15:07:34 -0500 Subject: Kaviraj on Aurobindo? (fwd) Message-ID: <161227019658.23782.1690511891498212480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forwarded the request for an article by Kaviraj on Aurobindo to my colleague here Klaus Klostermaier, who is not yet on indology. Here's his response. He can be reached at kklostr at bldgarts.lan1.umanitoba.ca. Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 Bob, I ckecked all I have by Gopinath Kaviraj and could not find anything on Aurobindo. However, there are three parts of his sadhudarsan evam satprasang ofwhich I have only the third. These volumes contain brief articles on saints and sages (some of them well-known, others little known) and it is possible that the first two parts contain an article on Aurobindo. The articles are fairly short. I have not been able as yet to get into the Indology internet list. If you have time when you are here I would appreciate your help to get the con- nection going. Greetings Klaus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ REPLY FROM: Klostermaier, Klaus Return-Path: Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 16:45:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Robert A. Hueckstedt" To: Klaus Klostermaier Subject: Kaviraj on Aurobindo? (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Klaus, I thought you might be able to answer this question. If you are already on the indology list, please let me know, and I'll know it's unnecessary to forward postings there to you. Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 22:12:49 BST From: william j alspaugh To: Members of the list Subject: Kaviraj on Aurobindo? To members of Indology: One of our patrons at the U. of Chicago library has information that Gopinath Kaviraj has written something on Sri Aurobindo. This might be an article or something in one of Kaviraj's philosophical works. Does anyone have any information on any such writing by Kaviraj? Thanks for any info you can supply. Bill Alspaugh, U. of Chicago South Asia Collection. Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 08 1995 Jun EST 17:23:17 Date: 08 Jun 1995 17:23:17 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: MOPLAH SCRIPT To the person who asked about Moplah script: A complete table of transliteration for Moplah in a system approved the the American Library Association and the Library of Congress is found in this book: ALA-LC romanization tables; transliteration schemes for non-Roman scripts ... Washington: Cataloging and Distribution Service, Library of Congress, 1991 call no.: P226 .A24 1991 LC card no.: 90-013308 p. 110-113. LC also has a number of works in Moplah. A search of its database with the command "find n Moplah" will turn them up. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 Internet: thrasher at mail.loc.gov Any opinions expressed are mine and not those of the Library of Congress or its management. From garzilli at husc.harvard.edu Fri Jun 9 01:33:55 1995 From: garzilli at husc.harvard.edu (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 21:33:55 -0400 Subject: IJTS WWW pages Message-ID: <161227019660.23782.17150039820676546331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> * NEWS * Our WWW pages have been created! You can reach them at the following address: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES Editor-in-Chief: Enrica GARZILLI (Harvard University) Co-Editor: Michael WITZEL (Harvard University) Editorial Board: e-mail: ijts-list at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it e-mail (to subscribe): ijts-list-request at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it WWW: http://www.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ Technical Assistant: Ludovico MAGNOCAVALLO (Politecnico of Milan) --------------------------------- 1) This journal is open to all *bona fide* scholars in Tantric Studies in Sanskrit. Particular attention is paid to the Trika schools of Kashmir. 2) It is monitored for style and content by the Editor-in-Chief. 3) There is copyright but with automatic permission to publish anywhere else later on when the author wishes to do so. Our aim is to disseminate our work quickly. 4) We include unpublished articles, abstracts, and news (such as on published books, on papers, conferences, meetings, events, Ph.D. projects, etc.) 5) We plan to publish once a year a hard copy of all the contributions to this Journal. It will be distributed under request. > The address for submissions is: ijts-list at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it > To subscribe, send a message to: ijts-list-request at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it With this subject and/or content: subscribe (your-name) e.g.: subscribe (Joseph Green) Subscriptions are open from now, May 30, 1995. > To get a list of the available commands send a message to: ijts-list-request at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it With this subject and/or content: help > To get information on submissions and how to format them, send a message to: ijts-list-request at arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it Only with this subject: Archive: get submission.txt > The home page on WWW is found at: http://arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ WWW pages will be created by June 7, 1995. * Submissions are always welcome! * Dott. Enrica Garzilli garzilli at husc.harvard.edu From Kalyans at aol.com Fri Jun 9 04:13:00 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 00:13:00 -0400 Subject: Respect for scholarship Message-ID: <161227019663.23782.9090174823308352421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lest there be any misapprehensions on my intent, let me state this emphatically: I have the greatest regard for the accumulated treasure of scholarship and to all the scholars who have contributed to the advancement of an understanding of our past linguistic and cultural heritage. One of the greatest achievements of scholarship during the last two hundred years is the decipherment of the Rigveda and enormous insights into Munda family of languages. My interests are indus script and civilization, comparative linguistics of south asia and soma-alchemy studies. I do not intend to, nor do I have the competence to, enter into polemics on other politicized topics. S. Kalyanaraman From als1 at midway.uchicago.edu Fri Jun 9 14:35:52 1995 From: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu (william j alspaugh) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 09:35:52 -0500 Subject: Sarvangi of Gopaldas Message-ID: <161227019666.23782.10043888598484801970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress record for the book gives the title: The Saravagi of Gopaldas (with appropriate macrons). Perhaps the difference in romanization is the reason Prof. Fosse's librarian could not locate the book. It should be widely held by libraries. Bill Alspaugh, U. of Chicago Library Bitnet: uclals1 at uchimvs1 Internet: als1 at midway.uchicago.edu From magier at columbia.edu Fri Jun 9 15:13:16 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 11:13:16 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227019669.23782.12500558794414320884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse enquired about this book. Our library has it. It was published in India, and is probably still in print from Manohar publishers. Any good Indian book importer should be able to get you a copy. Or you could contact a book exporter such as Vedams Books. (Try sending email to their proprietor, Mr. Achal Madhavan, at this email address: madhavan at vedamdel.uunet.in They accept orders by email and respond quickly). Hope this helps. David Magier =============== Title: The Sarvagi of Gopaldas, a 17th century anthology of Bhakti literature / Winand M. Callewaert. Published: New Delhi : Manohar, 1993. Description: 520 p. ; 29 cm. LC Subjects: Hindi poetry--1500-1800. =============== From garzilli at husc.harvard.edu Fri Jun 9 15:37:41 1995 From: garzilli at husc.harvard.edu (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 11:37:41 -0400 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227019668.23782.14383345985268179451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin Fosse, Why don't you ask directly W. Callewaert? I have his email address. eg On Fri, 9 Jun 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > We are looking for a book by W. M. Callewaert: The Sarvagi of Gopaldas: a > 17th century anthology of Bhakti literature, 1993. Our library service has > not been able to obtain a copy of this book from Arthur Probsthain in > London, and we would like to know if the book has really been published and > where we could get hold of it. Thanks to anybody who is able to help! > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Research Fellow > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > From hindimcs at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 9 18:52:03 1995 From: hindimcs at u.washington.edu (Michael Shapiro) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 11:52:03 -0700 Subject: a name for a baby girl meaning "free spirit" Message-ID: <161227019672.23782.2133042997053716074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would something like SvacchandA work? On Fri, 9 Jun 1995, purushottama bilimoria wrote: > What about AzAdI? > > > On Fri, 9 Jun 1995, Sugandha Johar wrote: > > > This is probably a very unusual request, but I hope someone will be able to > > help me. > > > > I am interested in finding a name for a girl meaning "free spirit" a sort of > > feminine equivalent for Aniruddha > > > > > > Sugandha > > > > > > > > > From sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au Fri Jun 9 03:33:06 1995 From: sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au (sjohar at library.usyd.edu.au) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 13:33:06 +1000 Subject: a name for a baby girl meaning "free spirit" Message-ID: <161227019661.23782.7762915583656898933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is probably a very unusual request, but I hope someone will be able to help me. I am interested in finding a name for a girl meaning "free spirit" a sort of feminine equivalent for Aniruddha Sugandha From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Jun 9 11:50:48 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 13:50:48 +0200 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227019665.23782.4521226171520381342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We are looking for a book by W. M. Callewaert: The Sarvagi of Gopaldas: a 17th century anthology of Bhakti literature, 1993. Our library service has not been able to obtain a copy of this book from Arthur Probsthain in London, and we would like to know if the book has really been published and where we could get hold of it. Thanks to anybody who is able to help! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 09 95 Jun EDT 13:32:00 Date: 09 Jun 95 13:32:00 EDT From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: re: Sarvangi of Gopaldas Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Sarvangi of Gopaldas is indeed a published work. It was published by Manohar in Delhi for about 3000 rupees. I have seen copies of it there and in other bookshops in India and Katmandu. A UK agent for Manohar books is: Motilal Books (UK) Ltd 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD tel: 0865 67575 From Kalyans at aol.com Sat Jun 10 06:44:30 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 95 02:44:30 -0400 Subject: Indus_Sarasvati Civilization Message-ID: <161227019674.23782.6402858088994468852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have prepared a 3-page note which provides the archaeological and linguistic rationale (duly referenced) for the suggested name for what Stuart Piggott (following the convention to name a culture after the first type site) called the Harappan (Prehistoric India; Sir Mortimer Wheeler, The Indus). But this site name does not bring out the fact that the civilization had the widest geographical expanse of all known protohistorical cultural groups. The expanse has contributed to hundreds of archaeological site discoveries since 1920, mainly clustered in two great river valleys. I will be happy to forward the note to any interested readers. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at aol.com From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Fri Jun 9 18:06:48 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 95 04:06:48 +1000 Subject: a name for a baby girl meaning "free spirit" Message-ID: <161227019671.23782.10168343959926254387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What about AzAdI? On Fri, 9 Jun 1995, Sugandha Johar wrote: > This is probably a very unusual request, but I hope someone will be able to > help me. > > I am interested in finding a name for a girl meaning "free spirit" a sort of > feminine equivalent for Aniruddha > > > Sugandha > > > From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Sat Jun 10 16:13:06 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 95 17:13:06 +0100 Subject: Indus_Sarasvati Civilization Message-ID: <161227019675.23782.8229701672843500093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be most interested to see your note. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University LA1 4YG UK From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Sun Jun 11 16:45:56 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 09:45:56 -0700 Subject: HT July available now Message-ID: <161227019681.23782.15536477724904047489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskarams! The July issue of Hinduism Today is "on line", that is, available free from the HT email server, and the HT web page. For those with Internet access, the url is: "http://hookomo.aloha.net/~htoday/htoday.html" For those who prefer to receive the paper by email, you may request articles by file name. Note that it is suggested you include your internet mail address in the request message. Also, be sure to include the issue name, in the format issue/article And, be sure to capitalize as shown. PLEASE do not reply to this message. Replies are automatically discarded. The mail server address, where requests should be sent, is: pslvax!hinduism_today at ucsd.edu Sample request message: begin mail (put your mail address here, such as prakash at castcrew.com) send jul_95/Publishers_Desk send jul_95/Editorial end To get more information about the HT email server, write to the HT postmaster at: pslvax!sadhu at ucsd.edu or send this message to the HT server: begin mail (your email address here) help index end list of articles in the table of contents Hinduism Today, July 1995 * Amazing! Such Service All Belongs To God: The Story of Pandurang Shastri Athavale * Can India's Timeworn Dharma Help Renew a Careworn World? The Hindu Presence at UK World Wide Fund Environmental Meeting * The Eye: Iconoclastic Zine for Young Indians * Using TV, Christian Pat Robertson Denounces Hinduism as "Demonic"--Evangelist Opposes Freedom of Religion, Says It's Time To Convert India and Wants to Keep Hinduism Out of US * Editorial--The Ups and Downs of Hinduism in the West * Letters to the Editor * Masthead * My Turn--Let's Give While We Can * Publisher's Desk--Stress Can Make You Strong * Where Siva Dances--It is at the Chidambaram temple that Lord Siva as Nataraja performed the "Dance of Bliss" for the liberation of all souls. * Chidambaram: Mysticism and Miracles * Book Reviews * Children's Books Part 3: Writing for Kids? The First Feat Is Fighting Off Those Who Tell Us Not To * Global Dharma: A Monthly News Digest * Healing: Computer Stress Syndrome * News in Brief: * Scriptural Quotes: * US' First Lady Loves India: Hillary Rodham Clinton's Spring Sojourn Touched Hearts and Strengthened Ties * Visiting Babaji's Cave * Tiruvanmiyur Temple Redidicated * ISKCON Mayapur Temple --------------------------------------------------------------------------- List of articles by file name jul_95/Amazing_Service jul_95/Babajis_Cave jul_95/Book_Reviews jul_95/Chidambaram jul_95/Childrens_Books_Part_III jul_95/Editorial jul_95/Global_Dharma jul_95/Healing jul_95/Letters_to_the_Editor jul_95/Masthead jul_95/My_Turn jul_95/New_ISKON_Temple jul_95/News_in_Brief jul_95/Publishers_Desk jul_95/Robertson_Denounces_Hinduism jul_95/Scriptural_Quotes jul_95/Table_of_contents jul_95/The_Eye jul_95/Timeworn_Dharma jul_95/Tirunvanmiyur_Temple jul_95/US_1st_Lady_Loves_India jul_95/Where_Siva_Dances From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sun Jun 11 10:20:25 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 10:20:25 +0000 Subject: Indus_Sarasvati Civilization Message-ID: <161227019678.23782.12603441470423966531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Kalyanraman, I am most interested in recieving your note you offered on Indology. I appreciate your erudite replies to those who indulge in debate by name calling and sully the traditions which they seek as a fig leaf. J.B. Sharma Asst Prof of Physics jsharma at hermes.gc.peachnet.edu From Kalyans at aol.com Sun Jun 11 15:32:31 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 11:32:31 -0400 Subject: Help Message-ID: <161227019680.23782.6628592076703977564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be grateful for help on the email addresses of Asko Parpola (Helsinki), F.R. Allchin (Cambridge) and Gregory Possehl (UPenn). Thanks. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at aol.com From torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it Sun Jun 11 11:59:26 1995 From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it (torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 12:59:26 +0100 Subject: GuhyasamAja Message-ID: <161227019677.23782.9556460835635676533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I have heard of a (partial?) translation of the GuhyasamAja by Francesca Fremantle. Could anybody give the complete reference? Raffaele Torella From asher at maroon.tc.umn.edu Sun Jun 11 19:13:55 1995 From: asher at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Frederick M Asher) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 14:13:55 -0500 Subject: Help Message-ID: <161227019683.23782.82629492054397785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Possehl's e-mail is possehl at vax.museum. upenn.edu. I'm sorry I don't have the others. Rick Asher On Sun, 11 Jun 1995 Kalyans at aol.com wrote: > I shall be grateful for help on the email addresses of > Asko Parpola (Helsinki), F.R. Allchin (Cambridge) and Gregory Possehl > (UPenn). Thanks. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at aol.com > > From Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at Mon Jun 12 07:41:19 1995 From: Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at (Max.Nihom at oeaw.ac.at) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 95 09:41:19 +0200 Subject: GuhyasamAja Message-ID: <161227019685.23782.3228773480108900867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Colleagues, > >I have heard of a (partial?) translation of the GuhyasamAja >by Francesca Fremantle. Could anybody give the complete >reference? > >Raffaele Torella > F. Fremantle, "Chapter Seven of the Guhyasamaaja Tantra", in Tadeusz Skorupski (ed.), Indo-Tibetan Studies : Papers in Honour and appreciateion of Prof. Savid L. Snellgrove's Contribution to Indo-Tibetan Studies, Tring, 1990 (Buddhica Britannica, Series Continua II), pp. 101-114. Max Nihom Vienna >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 12 1995 Jun EST 14:02:14 Date: 12 Jun 1995 14:02:14 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: SARVANGI OF GOPALDAS "The Sarvangi of Gopaldas; a 17th century anthology of Bhakti literature" was published by Manohar in Delhi in 1993. What I assume is the same book, "The Sarvangi of the Dadupanthi Rajab," was published in Leuven by the Departement Orientalistiek, Katholieke Universitet, in 1978, as v. 4 in Orientalia Lovaniensia analecta. Allen Thrasher >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 12 1995 Jun EST 14:30:14 Date: 12 Jun 1995 14:30:14 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: NAME FOR A BABY GIRL I looked in Monier-Williams' English-Sanskrit dictionary and examined the words meaning "free" or "unrestrained" or the like. Unfortunately I think most of them when given a feminine ending would come across with the implication that the girl was a loose woman. This might seem sexist but then I don't recall seeing any of them in the masculine as personal names, and searched a sample of them and indeed they didn't show up as personal names of men. Being unrestrained except in limited contexts, it seems, is not desirable for either sex. I suspect Aniruddha, "not held back," refers very specifically to his not being able to be restrained in battle. (Of course there's the widespread problem or attitude that someone who's a good fighter may be hard to hold back when he should restrain himself, a problem dealt with in India and in Homer). Might I suggest instead Aparajita, "unvanquished," which is established as a female name and doesn't have the bad implications mentioned above? Allen Thrasher Library of Congress thrasher at mail.loc.gov From malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU Mon Jun 12 20:48:47 1995 From: malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU (malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 95 14:48:47 -0600 Subject: "Free" baby girls name Message-ID: <161227019686.23782.10654924255935311398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, how about Muktaa: a free girl (also pearl) Saudaamini (short: Daamini): lightning Paarvati: of the mountain Aparajita, "unvanquished," as suggested by Allen Thrasher is good. Another related word can be Ajitaa with the same meaning. Yashwant K. Malaiya From kichenas at math.umn.edu Mon Jun 12 21:45:22 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 95 16:45:22 -0500 Subject: NAME FOR A BABY GIRL Message-ID: <161227019688.23782.2634756928714646085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A. Thrasher is quite right to point out that there is at times a risk of confusion between `free' and `libertine.' As the latter word indicates, this difficulty is not specific to India. One may suggest the classical Tat'A-takai for an invincible female warrior woman. It would, of course, carry the connotation of a tomboy, but she turned out fine anyway... Regarding Y. K. Malaiya's suggestion of PArvati, etc..., it is important to stress that all names of Sakti or Lakshmi etc..., imply a reference to the ultimate freedom, one which is not defined as the removal of a restraint (what could possibly restrain Brahman in the first place?). Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From magier at columbia.edu Tue Jun 13 11:15:35 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 07:15:35 -0400 Subject: IJTS WWW pages Message-ID: <161227019689.23782.2071438277895753702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES > > The home page on WWW is found at: > http://arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ Is anyone else having trouble with this URL or is it just me? Each time I try, either the connection is refused by the server, or I do connect but then it takes a very long time for the page to come in (and many of the links seem to be dead ends). I suspect this is a very slow server (or at least a low-bandwidth link to North America), because I have had the exact same problems with the other journal on the same server (Int'l Journal of Vedic Studies). Perhaps one or two mirror sites (e.g. in North America) are needed? David Magier From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Tue Jun 13 13:03:04 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 08:03:04 -0500 Subject: Nagaswamy in US Message-ID: <161227019691.23782.10588134901823850722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 13, 1995 Vidyavacaspati Dr. R. Nagaswamy is in Houston until June 15, 1995. Tel: 713-777-2800. He is a famous art historian, archaeologist, Sanskrit scholar, was Director, Dept. of Archaeology, Govt.of Tamilnadu for 22 years. Wrote around 25 books in english, tamil and sanskrit and 300 articles in a span of 35 years. His most recent book, "Roman Karur" is beautifully produced. There many color plates of Roman coins, rings, artefacts, etc found at Karur. The are also plates of a treasure trove (292 big, gold coins from Rome) found at Tirukkoyilur in 1992 Then he is on his way to Pittsburgh and Toronto. Going back to Madras around June 27th. Before 15th, he is at 713-777-2800 After June 15, if interested please send an e-mail or call me. I will give his tel. no. n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov 713-480-4141 (5pm - 7am) 713-280-2511 (w) From pdb1 at columbia.edu Tue Jun 13 13:23:23 1995 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 09:23:23 -0400 Subject: SARVANGI OF GOPALDAS Message-ID: <161227019702.23782.8079986748218753421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 12 Jun 1995, ALLEN W THRASHER wrote: > "The Sarvangi of Gopaldas; a 17th century anthology of Bhakti > literature" was published by Manohar in Delhi in 1993. What I > assume is the same book, "The Sarvangi of the Dadupanthi Rajab," No, I believe they are two different "Sarvangis," by different compilers, both within the Dadupanth tradition and so of course with a similar framework and contents. Moreover, if I remember correctly Callewaert's Rajab book didn't include the whole Sarvangi, but only the parts attributed to Dadu. Or some such selection. It's been a while since I looked at it... The Gopaldas I have at home, having bought a copy from Gerry Barrier at Madison a couple of years ago; the Rajjab is here in the CU library and I think I'll go have a look at it. I'll report back in a few hours if I find I've misrepresented it. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 13 1995 Jun EST 16:00:16 Date: 13 Jun 1995 16:00:16 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: SUBHADRAHARANAM The Library of Congress's copy of the following title is heavily damaged on the last page (27-28): 81-907110 PK3798 .M182 S87 1936 (Orien Sans) Madhvabhatta, fl. 1610 Subhadraharanam Trtiyavrttih Mumbayyam: Nirnayasagarakhyamudranalaye, 1936 Kavyamala, 9 Could someone supply me with a photocopy of the damaged pages? Thanks, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 Internet: thrasher at mail.loc.gov Any opinions expressed are mine and not those of the Library of Congress or its management. From Kalyans at aol.com Tue Jun 13 16:10:26 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 12:10:26 -0400 Subject: IJTS WWW pages Message-ID: <161227019695.23782.1740260650907944744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Magier; I have similar, enormous problems with the slow speeds of lines serving WWW pages. I hope the IBM initiative of ISDN Waveserver modems will help in due course. Kindly help me with the email or other access address for Journal of Vedic studies. Regards. Kalyanaraman. From kichenas at math.umn.edu Tue Jun 13 18:15:32 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 13:15:32 -0500 Subject: TeX for Indology Message-ID: <161227019698.23782.16139761109311389395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A question related to Minoura Akio's, and which may interest people working with other languages, is as follows: Is there a (La)TeX style file which enables the input of Romanized text? All the tools for this are present in TeX (macrons, dots over and under letters,...) and all that is needed is the definition of an environment which would enable the user to input \begin{tamil} kaNTanen kaRpinuk k-aNiyai \end{tamil} and produce the output corresponding to {\em ka\d n{}\d t{}a\b n{}e\b n kaRpi\b n{}uk k-a\d n{}iyai} The user would only need to update the transliteration table to suit his/her needs. Such a system is implicit in ITRANS, but I do not know of any language-independent, easily customized, set of macros for this purpose. This might be combined with other useful commands for scholarly articles, such as variations on the \footnote command (one such macro has, I think, been written by D. Wujastyk). Further information on this issue would be useful, and would help separate the issue of fonts from that of transliteration, at least as far as TeX users are concerned. Indeed, TeX input uses nothing but ASCII characters, and is eminently suitable for electronic communication. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From pdb1 at columbia.edu Tue Jun 13 18:20:44 1995 From: pdb1 at columbia.edu (Peter D Banos) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 14:20:44 -0400 Subject: sarvangi editions Message-ID: <161227019700.23782.4803767033403269148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As promised, I checked on Callewaert's "Sarvangi of the Dadupanthi Rajab." I was mistaken in my recollection that C. edited only the Dadu poems from R.'s compilation; in fact he edited only the poems written by Rajab himself! The apparatus contains much important matter concerning the Dadu text tradition as a whole; but the book is no substitute for the more recent "Sarvangi of Gopaldas," even apart from the fact that it is based on a rather different compilation to begin with. -Peter D. Banos pdb1 at columbia.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jun 13 16:11:29 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 17:11:29 +0100 Subject: Tibetan TeX Message-ID: <161227019696.23782.13879410320634950669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I usually use the TeX System. I got the Tibetan-TeX from > this Library. But this package has not various fonts. It > has only 300dpi. I would like to get the Source Program of > these fonts (maybe METAFONT). And then, are there Sources > of this Tibetan Preprocessor ? If somebody knows about this, > would you please tell me. I am afraid that these Tibetan fonts were never created in METAFONT format. The PK files are direct translations from 300 dpi bitmaps in another bitmap format. :-( Sorry. The Free Software Foundation does have tools for converting bitmap fonts into outline format, but doing this is a very non-trivial task, and probably requires a unix workstation. Dominik From tart at iastate.edu Wed Jun 14 00:31:23 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 19:31:23 -0500 Subject: Question on Islamic conversion Message-ID: <161227019703.23782.6463287773911998831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking at the conversion to Islam in Medieval India. I would like bibliographic suggestions on studies devoted to who converted and the conditions associated with conversion. I am also interested in the terminology used in South Asia to distinguish hereditary Muslims and immigrated Muslims from 'converted' Muslims, and if there is a distinction the term for a 'new convert' as opposed to indigenous Indian Muslims in Medieval times. Gary Tartakov From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Wed Jun 14 01:55:33 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 21:55:33 -0400 Subject: Temple Destruction in Tamil Nadu [was Re: Temple Destruction in South Asia] (fwd) Message-ID: <161227019705.23782.14706313116418338608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary M. Tartakov, Re: Islamic conversion in Mediaeval India The following post may be of ineterst to you. ------- start of forwarded message ------- Xref: news alt.hindu:2047 From: Rajiv Varma Newsgroups: alt.hindu Subject: Temple Destruction in Tamil Nadu [was Re: Temple Destruction in South Asia] Date: 8 Jun 1995 01:15:43 GMT Organization: Univ of Cincinnati Lines: 361 Approved: editor at rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu Message-ID: <3r5ivv$rpm at ucunix.san.uc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu Originator: editor at rbhatnagar Temple Destruction in TAMIL NADU Presented here are the particulars of muslim monuments which stand on the sites and/or have been built with the materials of the Hindu temples in Tamilnad. This is a draft list, and needs revision. The reason being different sources provide different dates and names for the same monument. Many muslim saints are known by several names, which creates confusion in identifying their mazars and dargahs. This should serve as a brief summary. Please note that these are the muslim monuments standing (today) on the sites of the demolished Hindu Temples in the present Tamil Nadu state only. District Wise Distribution: I. Chingleput District ------------------- 1. Acharwak, Mazar of Shah Ahmad. Temple Site 2. Kanchipuram (a) Large Masjid. Temple Site. (b) Eight other masjids. Temple sites. (c) Gumbad of Baba Hamid Ali. Temple Site. 3. Karkatpala, Mazar of Murad Shah Mastan. Temple Site 4. Kovalam, Dargah of Malik bin Dinar (1593-94). Temple Site. 5. Munropet (a) Masjid. Temple Site (b) Mazar of Shah Ali Mastan. Temple Site. 6. Pallavaram (a) Hill of Panchapandyamalai renamed Maula Pahad and central hall of an ancient Cave Temple turned into a Masjid for worshipping a panja (palm). (b) Mazar of Shaykh Husain Qadiri alias Budu Shahid. Temple Site. (c) Poonmalle, Mir Jumla's Masjid (1653). Temple materials used. 7. Rajkoilpetta, Mazar of Haji Umar. Temple site. 8. Rampur, Takiya of the Tabqati order of Faqirs. Temple site. 9. Rayapeta, Walajahi Masjid. Temple site. 10. Walajahbad, Masjid. Temple site. II. Coimbatore District --------------------- 1. Annamalai Fort, repaired by Tipu Sultan with temple materials. 2. Coimbatore, Large Masjid of Tipu Sultan. Temple site. 3. Sivasamudram, Dargar of Pir Wali. Temple Site. III. Madras District ----------------- Jami Masjid. Temple Site. IV. Madura District ----------------- 1. Bonduvarapetta, Masjid. Temple materials used. 2. Devipatnam, Large Masjid. Temple site. 3. Goripalaiyam, Dargah of Khwaja Alaud-Din. Temple site. 4. Madura, Dargah of Khwaja Alaud-din. Temple site. 5. Nimarpalli (a) Masjid, Temple materials used. (b) Dargah of Makhdum Jalalu'd-Din. Temple materials used. 6. Puliygulam, Masjid. Temple Site. 7. Soravandam, Masjid. Temple site. 8. Tiruparankunram, Sikandar Masjid on top of the Hill. Stands amidst ruins of Brahmanical, Buddhist and Jain temples. V. North Arcot District ----------------------- 1. Arcot, A city of temples before its occupation by Muslims. (a) Jami Masjid. Temple site. (b) Tomb of Sadatullah Khan. Atreya temple materials used. (c) Masjid and Mazar of Tipu Awliya. Temple site. (d) Dargah of Sayyid Husain Shah. Temple site. (e) Qala-ki-Masjid. Temple site. (f) Masjid of Shah Husain Chisti. Temple site. (g) Masjid and Gumbad of Papa Shahid. Temple site. (h) Gumbad of Shah Sadiq with a graveyard. Temple site. (i) Masjid and Mazar of Shah Azmatullah Qadiri. Temple site. (j) Masjid of Shykh Natthar. Temple site. (k) Masjid of Murad Shah. Temple site. (l) Masjid of Mir Asadullah Khan. Temple site. (m) Masjid of Mawlvi Jamal Ali. Temple site. (n) Masjid and Gumbad of Sayyid Ahmad alias Yaar Pir. Temple site. (o) Masjid of Chanda Sahib. Temple site. (p) Masjid of Miskin Shah with Gumbad of Amin Pir. Temple site. (q) Masjid and Mazar of Hazrat Usman Khan Sarwar. Temple site. (r) Masjid in the Maqbara of Mughlani. Temple site. (s) Masjid of Ghulam Rasul Khan. Temple site. (t) Masjid of Shah Ghulam Rasul Khan Dargahi. Temple site. (u) Masjid of Hafiz Abdul Aziz. Temple site. (v) Masjid of Hafiz Karimullah. Temple site. (w) Masjid and Gumbad in Tajpura. Temple site. Outside the city: --------------- (x) Takiya of Qatil Pandu Sarguroh. Temple site. (y) Masjid and Gumbad of Ahmad Tahir Khan. Temple site. (z) Masjid, Khanqah, Graveyard and Gumbad in Hasanpura. Temple site. (aa) Gumbad of Hazrat Antar Jani with the Idgah. Temple site. (bb) Takiya of Sabit Ali Shah. Temple site. (cc) Masjid and Mazar of Sayyid Karim Muhammad. Quadiri. Temple Site. (dd) Masjid of Sa'datmand Khan. Temple Site. (ee) Masjid of Abu'l Hasan Zakir. Temple site. (ff) Masjid of Da'ud Beg. Temple Site. (gg) Masjid and Gumbad of Hazrat Shah Nasir. Temple Site. (hh) Masjid of Punji. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Yadu'llah Shah. Temple site. (jj) Rangin Masjid. Temple site. (kk) House of Relic which has a footprint of the Holy Prophet. Converted Temple. 2. Arni (a) Two masjids. Temple sites. (b) Dargah of Seven Shahids. Temple site. 3. Kare - Naulakh Gumbad. Converted Gautama and Viswamitra Temple. 4. Kaveripak (a) Idgah. Temple Site. (b) Takiya. Temple Site. (c) Three Masjids. Temple Sites. 5. Nusratgarh - Many masjids and mazars in the ruined fort. Temple sites. 6. Pirmalipak - Mazar of Wajid Shah Champar Posh. Temple Site. 7. Ramna (a) Masjid of Kamtu Shah. Temple Site. (b) Takiya of Shah Sadiq Tabqati. Temple site. 8. Vellore (a) Jami Masjid. Temple Site. (b) Chhoti Masjid. Temple Site. (c) Mazar of Nur Muhammad Qadiri who "laid waste" many temples. Temple site. (d) Mazar of Shah Abu'l Hasan Quadiri. (e) Mazar of Abdul Latif Zauqi. Temple site. (f) Mazar of Ali Husaini Chishti. Temple site. (g) Mazar of Hazrat Ali Sultan. Temple site. (h) Mazar of Amin Pir. Temple site. (i) Mazar of Shah Lutfu'llah Qadiri. Temple site. (j) Mazar of Sahib Padshah Qadiri. Temple site. 9. Walajahangar - Masjid and Mazar of Pir Sahib on the Hill. Temple site. 10. Wali-Muhammad-Petta, Masjid. Temple site. VI. Ramanathapuram District -------------------------- 1. Eruvadi (a) Dargah of Hazrat Ibrahim Shahid. Temple site. (b) Mazar of Hazrat Fakhru'din Shahid alias Katbaba Sahib. Temple site. 2. Kilakari (a) Jami Masjid. Temple site. (b) Dargah of Muhammad Qasim Appa. Temple site. (c) Apparpalli Masjid. Temple site. 3. Periyapattanam - Dargah of Sayyid Sultan Wali. Temple site. 4. Valinokkam (a) Pallivasal Masjid (1417-18). Temple site. (b) Dargah of Katupalli (1425). Temple site. 5. Ramanathapuram - Old Masjid. Temple site. VII. Salem District ----------------- Sankaridurg, - Masjid on the ascent to the Fort. Temple site. VIII. South Arcot District. --------------------------- 1. Anandapur, Masjid. Temple site. 2. Chidambaram (i) Lalkhan Masjid. Temple materials used. (ii) Nawal Khan Masjid. Temple materials used. (iii) Idgah. Temple site. (iv) Mazar of Aminu'd-Din Chishti. Temple site. (v) Mazar of Sayyid Husain. Temple site. 3. Gingee (i) Masjid (1718). Temple site. (ii) Masjid (1732). Temple site. (iii) Masjid in the Fort. Temple site. 4. Kawripet, Mazar of Qalandar Shah. Temple site. 5. Manjakupham, Mazar of Shah Abdu'r-Rahim. Temple site. 6. Mansurpeta, Itibar Khan-ki-Masjid. Temple site. 7. Nallikuppam (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Shykh Miran Sahib. Temple site. 8. Pannuti (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Gumbad of Nur Muhammad Qadiri. Temple site. 9. Swamiwaram, Masjid. Temple site. 10. Tarakambari (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Shykh Ismail Sahib. Temple site. 11. Tirumalarayanapatnam, Mazar of Abdul Qadir Yamini. Temple site. 12. Warachkuri, Mazar of Shah Jalal Husaini. Temple site. IX. Thanjavur District. -------------------- 1. Ammapettah (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Mazfir of Muinu'd-Din Husain Qadiri. Temple site. (iii) Mazar of Shah Jafar. Temple site. 2. Ilyur (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Inayatu'llah Dirwesh. Temple site. (iii) Mazar of Muhammad Mastan. Temple site. (iv) Mazar of Miran Husain. Temple site. 3. Karambari (i) Mazar of Arab Sahib. Temple site. (ii) Mazar ofMubtala Shah. Temple site. 4. Kurikyalpalayam (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Makhdum Haji. Temple site. (iii) Mazar of Makhdum Jahan Shah. Temple site. 5. Kurkuti, Gumbad of Hasan Qadiri alias Ghyb Sahib. Temple site. 6. Kushalpalayam (i) Mazar of Hazrat Taj Firaq Badanshahi. Temple site. (ii) Mazar of Hidayat Shah Arzani. Temple site. (iii) Mazar of Yar Shah Husainshahi. Temple site. 7. Nagur (i) Masjid. Temple site. (ii) Dargah of Qadir Wali Shah. Temple site. 8. Urancheri, Mazar of Pir Qutbu'd-Din. Temple site. 9. Vijayapuram, Gumbad of Sultan Makhdum. Temple site. 10. Wadlyarkari, Mazar of Bawa Sahib Shahid. Temple site. X. Tiruchirapalli District. -------------------------- 1. Puttur, Mazar. Temple materials used. 2. Tiruchirapalli (i) Dargah of Natthar Shah Wali. Converted Siva Temple. Lingam used as lamp-post. (ii) Masjid-i-Muhammadi. Temple site. (iii) Mazar of Baba Muhiu'd-Din Sarmast. Temple- site. (iv) Mazar of Hazrat Fathu'llah Nuri. Temple site. (v) Mazar of Shams Paran. Temple site. (vi) Mazar of Sayyid Abdul Wahhab. Temple site. (vii) Mazar of Shah Fazlu'llah Qadiri. Temple site. (viii) Mazar of Shah Nasiru'd-Din. Temple site. (ix) Mazar of Faridu'd-Din Shahid. Temple site. (x) Mazar of Hazrat Chand Mastan. Temple site. (xi) Mazar of Sayyid Zainu'l-Abidin at Tinur. Temple site. (xii) Mazar of Sayyid Karimu'd-Din Qadiri. Temple site. (xiii) Mazar of Alimu'llah Shah Qadiri called Barhana Shamsir (Naked Sword). Temple site. (xiv) Mazar of Shah Imamu'd-Din Qadiri. Temple site. (xv) Mazar of Kaki Shah. Temple site. (xvi) Mazar of Khwaja Aminu'd-Din Chisti. Temple site. (xvii) Mazar of Khwaja Ahmad Shah Husain Chishti. Temple site. (xviii) Mazar of Shah Bheka. Converted temple. (xix) Mazar of Shah Jamalu'd-Din Husain Chishti. Temple site. (xx) Mazar of Qayim Shah who destroyed twelve temples. Temple site. (xxi) Mazar of Munsif Shah Suhrawardiyya. Temple site. (xxii) Mazar of Itiffaq Shah. Temple site. (xxiii) Mazar of Sayyid Jalal Qadiri. Temple site. (xxiv) Mazar of Mahtab Shah Shirazi Suhrawardiyya. Temple site. (xxv) Masjid of Haji Ibrahim where Natthar Shah Wali (see i above) stayed on his arrival. Temple site. 3. Valikondapuram (i) Masjid opposite the Fort. Converted temple. (ii) Mazar near the Masjid. Converted temple. (iii) Sher Khan-ki-Masjid (1690). Temple site. (iv) Old Jami' ~asjid. Temple site. XI. Tirunelvelli District. ------------------------- l. Ambasamudram, Mazar of Hazrat Rahmtu'llah near the ruined Fort. Temple site. 2. Kayalpattanam (i) Periyapalli Masjid (1336-37). (ii) Sirupalli Masjid. Temple site. (iii) Dargah of Nainar Muhammad. Temple site. (iv) Marukudiyarapalli Masjid. Temple site. 3. Tirunelvelli, Jami' Masjid. Temple materials used. *------------------------ cut here -----------------------------------* regards, Rajiv ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Alt.hindu is a moderated group for discussion related to Hindu dharma (including, philosophy, religion, culture etc.), Hindu issues, current events and announcements. This newsgroup is edited by several people, administrative enquiries may be directed to Ajay Shah, editor at rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu WWW Archives: http://rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu:8080/alt_hindu_home.html ------- end of forwarded message ------- From PXB02316 at niftyserve.or.jp Tue Jun 13 14:48:00 1995 From: PXB02316 at niftyserve.or.jp (=?utf-8?B?566V5rWm44CA5pqB6ZuE?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 23:48:00 +0900 Subject: Tibetan TeX Message-ID: <161227019693.23782.3059069611405102402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I usually use the TeX System. I got the Tibetan-TeX from this Library. But this package has not various fonts. It has only 300dpi. I would like to get the Source Program of these fonts (maybe METAFONT). And then, are there Sources of this Tibetan Preprocessor ? If somebody knows about this, would you please tell me. I greatly appreciate any help. Thank you. June 13, 1995 MINOURA Akio (Otani University, Kyoto Japan) e-mail: PXB02316 at niftyserve.or.jp From kharimot at sas.upenn.edu Wed Jun 14 09:08:21 1995 From: kharimot at sas.upenn.edu (kharimot at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 04:08:21 -0500 Subject: dvng (Another question re: (La)TeX) Message-ID: <161227019707.23782.13561622929678874158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anothe question regarding (La)TeX. I wonder whether dvng program has been updated so that it can be used with LaTeX2e. When I first tried to use it with the new LaTeX, I found one or some of commands used in the preprocessed document are no longer valid, even in its compatible mode. I tried to find a workaround for this problem. But it turned out to be very difficult for a casual user of TeX like me. I would much appreciate if somebody acknowledges me the way to use that beautiful Devanagari font in a document compiled with LaTeX2e. -- Kengo From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Jun 14 08:44:08 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 10:44:08 +0200 Subject: sarvangi editions Message-ID: <161227019709.23782.7330679278140601299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As promised, I checked on Callewaert's "Sarvangi of the Dadupanthi >Rajab." I was mistaken in my recollection that C. edited only >the Dadu poems from R.'s compilation; in fact he edited only the poems >written by Rajab himself! The apparatus contains much important >matter concerning the Dadu text tradition as a whole; but the book is no >substitute for the more recent "Sarvangi of Gopaldas," even apart from >the fact that it is based on a rather different compilation to begin with. > -Peter D. Banos > pdb1 at columbia.edu > Thank you very much! I'll convey the information to the right person. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU Wed Jun 14 18:37:52 1995 From: malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU (malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 12:37:52 -0600 Subject: Conversion to Islam in Medieval Period Message-ID: <161227019710.23782.9646329655923136229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Some of the accounts of conversion can be found in books written by contemporary Muslim scholars who wrote about the conquest of India. 2. There are several accounts of conversions that are found in books written by British authors during the British rule. Many of them are about conversions that took place during the last period of the Moghul rule. These accounts are about individuals from noble families (zamindars, thikanedars etc). In many cases the conversion involved junior members of the family, accounts suggest that the inheritance laws may have prompted the conversion. There are several "traditional" accounts of how many Rajput individuals from major families converted. These accounts suggest that they had to convert because they had been "defiled" and could not be admitted to back into the family. It appears that many such Rajputs at one time had wanted to convert back but such reconversion was not accepted by the Hindus. A few Rajput communites were "purified" by the Arya Samajis. It appears that some communites became Muslim because they often dealt with Muslims. The include tailors, dyers (rangrej, chhipa), weavers, spinners, and cotton processors (dhunias) all in the clothing business. Butchers were often Muslim, because the Hindus looked down on that profession. Some communities have had a "soft conversion", they followed both Hinduism and Islam. There may still be one or two such communities. Once a region became predominantly Muslim, others often had considerable pressure to convert. People at the highest ranks tended to be most resistant to conversion. Strangely, in some places the untouchables were relatively immune. A very large fraction (perhaps about half) of Hindus left in Pakistan after the Partition were untouchable. There was one person in Jawaharlal Nehru's family who had converted to Islam (that was several generations ago). A son of Mahatma Gandhi had converted to Islam (to offend his father) but had later converted back. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Jun 14 20:26:42 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 13:26:42 -0700 Subject: Temple Destruction in Tamil Nadu [was Re: Temple Destruction in South Message-ID: <161227019717.23782.5409192707081643451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would take the list posted earlier with large doses of salt. It is historically documented fact that temples were broken down and mosques built in their place. But then, to suggest that every masjid or mazar in highly Brahmin dominated villages like Ambasamudram and Tiruchirapally was built on an unidentified "temple site" is somewhat unbelievable. The list seems more like an attempt at whipping up of religio-political passions in south India, which has not had any sinificant history of Muslim rule. S. Vidyasankar From ckw1 at columbia.edu Wed Jun 14 19:18:28 1995 From: ckw1 at columbia.edu (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 15:18:28 -0400 Subject: GuhyasamAja Message-ID: <161227019712.23782.16945723545153214063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A complete translation of chapters I to XVII (i.e. excluding the Uttaratantra) of the Guhyasamajatantra comprises the first part of Francesca Fremantle's doctoral dissertation which was completed at the University of London in (I believe) 1971. She also presents her own critical edition of the Sanskrit and Tibetan texts, conveniently placed on facing pages. This work may be borrowed through Interlibrary loan services. From garzilli at shore.net Wed Jun 14 20:27:35 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 16:27:35 -0400 Subject: my address Message-ID: <161227019715.23782.4828572746084355915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to inform friends and enemies that I changed my email address. My new one is: garzilli at shore.net >Could you please, Dominick, remove my old address from your list and add the new one? I do not have anymore my old address book. Thank you --eg P.S. Due to the reason above written, I had to post this msg to everybody in the list. I apologize for that! From TCOB at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU Wed Jun 14 20:29:37 1995 From: TCOB at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU (Coburn, Tom) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 16:29:37 -0400 Subject: Question on Islamic conversion Message-ID: <161227019719.23782.7687198465731927562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suggest you contact Tony Stewart and Carl Ernst at North Carolina State and UNC--Chapel Hill who are leading an NEH Seminar this summer on a closely related topic. Tom Coburn St. Lawrence University From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Wed Jun 14 20:19:53 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 21:19:53 +0100 Subject: Nagaswamy in US Message-ID: <161227019714.23782.6381786218767507088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan How are you? It is some time since we were in email contact. I have been fantastically busy in Lancaster with double the number of students and trying to finish my book on the Dance of Siva based on Umapati Sivacarya's Kuncitanghristava. So much so that I missed seeing Vidyavacaspati Dr. R. Nagaswamy when he was in the UK; I have just discovered a letter from him to me in September 94 (!) telling me of a paper he had in press dealing with the date of Umapati. I will write to him in India, asking for a copy of this paper, but I email you now in case he is with you at present and at sufficient leisure on his very busy trip to just pass on via you in brief the new details of Umapati's date. My book is just now being typeset. Please do not trouble him if he or you are too busy. With all good wishes Yours sincerely David Smith From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Wed Jun 14 23:05:22 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 23:05:22 +0000 Subject: Question on Islamic conversion Message-ID: <161227019721.23782.12249358379147444153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary, A very interesting study of Indian Muslims pertaining to your question is done by Professor K.S. Lal in his book "Indian Muslims; Who Are They" (1990) ISBN 81-85990-10-7 Other books by Prof Lal on related topics are : "History of the Khaljis" (1950,67,80) "Growth of Muslim Population in Medevial India" (1973) "Early Muslims in India" (1984) "The Mughal Harem" (1988) The best place to look into medevial India is to go directly to the writings of the Muslim scribes of the period, to which there are several references in these works. Regards, J.B. Sharma From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Thu Jun 15 13:12:49 1995 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 09:12:49 -0400 Subject: TeX for Indology Message-ID: <161227019722.23782.2388919126716273520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kichenas at math.umn.edu asked > Is there a (La)TeX style file which enables > the input of Romanized text? All the tools for this are > present in TeX (macrons, dots over and under letters,...) > and all that is needed is the definition of an > environment which would enable the user to input > \begin{tamil} > kaNTanen kaRpinuk k-aNiyai > \end{tamil} > and produce the output corresponding to > {\em ka\d n{}\d t{}a\b n{}e\b n kaRpi\b n{}uk k-a\d n{}iyai} I do not know of any existing style files. But I have thought of writing one. But I gave it up for reasons that will become clear when I describe what one would need to do: If a single character needs to be replaced by a string, then just make it into an active character. then you can associate a macro to it. If you need to use digraphs, trigraphs etc, then the first chacracter must be made into a control character; you will need todefine a macro that examines its arguments (following characters) to decide what to do. As you can see, if you need to do the latter, then it is quite cumbersome. But you have TeX 3.0 and an editor that does not barf at 8-bit characters, you need to use only the first alternative. You can automatically use any font you wish. If you want to stick with ASCII (7-bit set), it will be better to use a filter that makes the required string substitutions. In UNIX, you can use sed, for example. It is a trivial matter to match this to any transliteration scheme. I prefer this approach rather than create long and hard to follow TeX macro files. P.S. If you are going to use only Roman characters (with diacritics), ITRANS is overkill. A simple filter that does the required substitutions is less resource-intensive. Nath Rao (natharao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From Kalyans at aol.com Thu Jun 15 15:16:58 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 11:16:58 -0400 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227019724.23782.13782634112454673329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to provide more technical citations on Sarasvati river. I will be happy to provide, to interested indologists, extracts from the following, mainly geological, bibliographical references compiled in a 6-page note which seeks to substantiate the expanse of the Harappan culture on the Indus_Sarasvati river valleys. [I shall be grateful for help on obtaining copies of A-4 size photographs and slides of the landsat images contained in some of these references.] SARASVATI RIVER: A BIBLIOGRAPHY Alex Rogers, 1870. A few remarks on the Geology of the country surrounding the Gulf of Cambay in Western India, Quarterly Journal of Geological Societyof London, 26: 118-124 R.D. Oldham, 1886, On probable changes in the geography of the Punjab and its rivers - a historico-geographical study, J. Asiatic Soc. Bengal, 55: 322-343 C.F. Oldham, 1893, The Saraswati and the lost river of the Indian Desert, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, pp. 48-76 Bimal Ghose, Amal Kar and Zahid Husain, 1979, The lost courses of the Sarasvati river in the Great Indian Desert: New evidence from Landsat Imagery, Geographical Journal, 145: 446-451 Ramasamy, SM, PC Bakliwal and RP Verma, 1991, Remote Sensing and River migrations in Western India, Int. J. Remote Sensing, Vol. 12, No. 12, 2597-2609 P.C. Bakliwal and A.K. Grover, 1988, Signatures and migration of Saraswati river in Thar desert, Western India, Rec. Geol. Surv. Ind., 116: Pts. 3-8, pp. 77-86 Singhvi AK and Kar, Amal eds., 1992, Thar Desert in Rajasthan: Land, Man and Environment, Bangalore, Geological Society of India, Bangalore Mughal M.R. (1982, Recent archaeological research in the Cholistan desert, in: Harappan Civilization, GL Possehl, ed., Oxford, pp. 85-95) Kar, A., Drainage desiccation, water erosion and desertification in northwest India, in: Desertification in the Thar, Sahara and Sahel Regions, AK Sen ed., Scientific Publishers, Jodhpur Valdiya, KS, 1989, Neotectonic implication of collision of Indian and Asian plates, Ind. J. Geology, 61: 1-13 Ghosh, A., 1952, The Rajasthan Desert - its archaeological aspect, Bulletin of the National Inst. Sci., I : 37-42 Bhan, S., 1973, The sequence and spread of prehistoric cultures in the upper Saraswati basin in: Radiocarbon and Indian Archaeology, DP Agrawal and A. Ghosh eds., TIFR, Bombay, pp. 252-263 Lal. B.B., 1979, Kaliban and Indus civilization, in: Essays in Indian Protohistory, DP Agrawal and DK Chakrabarti eds., BR Publ., Delhi, pp. 65-97 Yash Pal, Baldev Sahai, R.K.Sood and D.P. Agrawal, Space Applications Centre, and PRL, Ahmedabad: Proc. Indan Acad. Sci. (Earth and Planetary Sci.), Vol. 89, No. 3, Nov. 1980, pp. 317-331 R.L. Raikes, 1968, Kalibangan: Death from Natural causes, Antiquity, 42, pp. 286-291 Gurdip Singh, 1971, Archaeology and Physical Anthropology in Oceania, 6, 177-189: The Indus Valley Culture seen in the context of post-glacial climatic and ecological studies in North-West India Amal Kar and Bimal Ghose, 1984, Geographical Journal, The Drishadvati river system of India: an assessment and new findings, 150: 221-229 Aurel Stein, 1942, A survey of ancient sites along the 'lost' Sarasvati River, Geographical Journal, 99: 173-182 D. A. Holmes, 1968, The recent history of the Indus, Geographical Journal, 134: 367-382Lambrick H.T.Lambrick, 1967, The Indus Flood-plain and the 'Indus' civilization, Geographical Journal, 133,4: 483-95 Dr. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at aol.com kalyans at ix.netcom.com June 1995 From tart at iastate.edu Thu Jun 15 20:00:43 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 15:00:43 -0500 Subject: Temple Destruction in Tamil Nadu [was Re: Temple Destruction in Message-ID: <161227019725.23782.10591992470392224851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want to second S. VidyasankarUs post, in response to the list of what have been labeled destroyed temples in Tamilnadu. At best this looks like a very uncritical list and seems more likely to be something with little or no archaeological or textual basis at all. Iconoclasm is a very complex subject as well as a socially and politically volatile one. In Karnataka where I have worked among the cases of documented iconoclasm are examples, for instance, of communities who have changed their allegiance. Thus not an outside incursion, but an internal expression is marked. We should be very careful in developing this important topic. It is not only volatile. It is much more difficult than may at first appear. Gary Michael Tartakov From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 15 22:35:21 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 23:35:21 +0100 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227019727.23782.6285666677867593943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for the bibliography, which is very interesting indeed. I still don't see the necessary relationship between the history of the geology of this region and the advisability of renaming the culture. We sometimes talk about Harappan, sometimes about Mohenjodaro-Harappa, sometimes about Indus Valley, but the main point, surely, is that we all know what we are talking about. People who keep up with current scholarship on the subject are aware of the river movements, and the fact that the culture covered a far greater area than was once thought, and that it extended "down" through villages to smaller settlements which shared certain artefacts etc., and were evidently part of the same cultural milieu, though not city-based. I just don't see how fiddling with the name is meant to help. If in a decade we discover some other feature of the culture, should the name change again? Names are conventional, as almost all Indian philosphers have taught. Tinkering with labels reminds me of the streets in almost all Indian cities, which have often been renamed to reflect glory on recent generations of politicians and prominent citizens. But nobody *really* uses the new names. Even the official maps don't always match the street name signs. What the change does is just creat confusion for visitors. :-) Dominik From Kalyans at aol.com Fri Jun 16 04:32:04 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 00:32:04 -0400 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sara... Message-ID: <161227019729.23782.14842935533160420957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the study of civilizations, the focus on cities is the vogue. I believe that as Possehl, Fairservis and Dani have argued, studies on the social milieu which the culture represented are likely to yield a cohesive socio-cultural historical perspective. A fundamental question remains unanswered as yet about the Harappan culture: did it disappear after 1700 BC? Why was Indus preferred to Harappan? It is not uncommon to rename civilizations; why was mesopotamian preferred to babylonian? Because, the geographic domain was more accurately denoted by the latter term, given the cumulative knowledge gained from archaeological discoveries. From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Fri Jun 16 07:22:59 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 08:22:59 +0100 Subject: Journal Message-ID: <161227019730.23782.16941022096921488122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Parts 2, 3, and 4 of Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques vol. 48 (1994) have recently come out. They contain the following articles concerning Indian studies: -Toshihide Adachi: "On the size and mobility of the aatman in the early Vai'se.sika", pp. 653-663. -Johannes Bronkhorst: "Once again Vai'se.sika suutra 3.1.13", pp. 665-681. -Eli Franco: "Vai'se.sika or Caarvaaka? The mysterious opponent in Pramaa.navaarttika 2.63-72", pp. 683-698. -Masaaki Hattori: "The Vai'se.sikasuutras as referred to by Bhaavaviveka in his Tarkajvaalaa", pp. 699-706. -Megumu Honda: "Did the early Vai'se.sika admit the notion of 'I' as a means to prove the existence of the soul?", pp. 707-709. -Jan E.M. Houben: "Liberation and natural philosophy in early Vai'se.sika: some methodological problems", pp. 711-748. -Harunaga Isaacson: "Notes on the manuscripts transmission of the Vai'se.sikasuutra and its earliest commentaries", pp. 749-779. -Victoria Lysenko: "'Atomistic mode of thinking' as exemplified by the Vai'se.sika philosophy of number", pp. 781-806. -Shujun Motegi: "Some Vai'se.sika thoughts referred to in the Yuktidiipikaa", pp. 807-817. -Claudius Nenniger: "saamaanyato d.r.s.tam anumaanam - analogical reasoning in early Nyaaya-Vai'se.sika", pp. 819-832. -Masanobu Nozawa: "On the Vai'se.sikasuutra 1.2.3", pp. 833-844. -Claus Oetke: "Pra'sastapaada's views on the 'antinomic reason' and their consequences for a theory of default reasoning", pp. 845-866. -Karin Preisendanz: "Vai'se.sikasuutra IV.1.9 and its two traditions of interpretation", pp. 867-890. -Musashi Tachikawa: "The concept of universal in Bhaavaviveka's writings", pp. 891-902. -Etienne Bourgnon: "Dieu, l'univers et l'homme dans l'enseignement de Maa Ananda Moyii", pp. 1013-1038. -Johannes Bronkhorst: "A note on zero and the numerical place-value system in Ancient India", pp. 1039-1042. -Maya Burger: "Kabiir et3 la repetition du nom de Raama - realisation spirituelle et memoire de Dieu", pp. 1043-1067. -Richard Gombrich: "The Buddha and the Jains", pp. 1069-1096. -Christian Lindtner: "Sumati's Subhaa.sitaavalii", pp. 1177-1212. -Axel Michaels: "The legislation of widow burning in 19th-century Nepal", pp. 1213-1240. -Tilmann Vetter: "On the origin of Mahaayaana Buddhism and the subsequent introduction of Prajnaapaaramitaa", pp. 1241-1281. -Andreas Bigger: "Balaraama im Mahaabhaarata", pp. 1297-1299. -Teresa Bigon: "The interpretation of Ajneya's short-stories in the light of rasa-theory", pp. 1301-1305. -Jaydev Jani: "The Sanskrit literary tradition of the Swami Narayana Movement", pp. 1337-1340. -Barbara Messerli: "Feuervergoldun in Nepal", pp. 1351-1355. -Yves Ramseier: "Bhart.rhari et la nescience", pp. 1363-1368. -Toru Tomabechi: "La formation textuelle du Pancakrama", pp. 1383-1387. -Annette Wilke: "Meister Eckhart und 'Sa.mkara", pp. 1389-1395. Herve Mesot Herve.Mesot at ulys.unil.ch Ferrage 19 Tel.(011)(+41)(21)634.18.64 CH 1023 Crissier Suisse >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 16 1995 Jun EST 10:47:10 Date: 16 Jun 1995 10:47:10 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. To: Scholars who have worked on text editing From: Allen Thrasher Re: Usefulness of commercial or non-critical editions of South Asia texts How useful are commercial, non-critical, or minimally critical editions to constituting a critical text? Have you used them in your work? Is it desirable to examine every edition? Are they useful attestations of regional textual traditions? Do other scholars in their sentiments and practice agree with your responses? Are there other questions that should be raised about this matter? Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 Internet: thrasher at mail.loc.gov Any opinions expressed are mine and not those of the Library of Congress or its management. From RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu Fri Jun 16 19:22:08 1995 From: RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu (RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:22:08 -0500 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sara... Message-ID: <161227019734.23782.10502561192882339750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thiru S. Kalyanaraman, I AM willing to help track down Landsat maps. By the same token, I'm hoping you do intend to answer my specific objections (and Dominik's?) to the proposed hyphenation of Indus Valley Civilization with Sarasvati. Again, can you tell me which if any Harappan site along the presumed former route of the Sarasvati was substantial enough to be ranked on a par with Mohenjo-Daro, Lothal and Harappa. Could any be considered towns, at least? Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University From conlon at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 16 21:55:48 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:55:48 -0700 Subject: email for South Asia Books? Message-ID: <161227019740.23782.12748365566263542707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not as yet, but I think Jerry Barrier is considering a move into that mode. Frank Conlon On Fri, 16 Jun 1995, Robert A. Hueckstedt wrote: > Dear All, > The subject says it all. Is there one? > > Best, > Bob Hueckstedt > > Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages > Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba > Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca > fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 > > > From GATUBB at vaxsar.vassar.edu Fri Jun 16 19:12:02 1995 From: GATUBB at vaxsar.vassar.edu (Gary Tubb) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:12:02 -0400 Subject: TeX for Indology Message-ID: <161227019732.23782.6351662331336954959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kichenas at math.umn.edu asked > Is there a (La)TeX style file which enables > the input of Romanized text? All the tools for this are > present in TeX (macrons, dots over and under letters,...) > and all that is needed is the definition of an > environment which would enable the user to input > \begin{tamil} > kaNTanen kaRpinuk k-aNiyai > \end{tamil} > and produce the output corresponding to > {\em ka\d n{}\d t{}a\b n{}e\b n kaRpi\b n{}uk k-a\d n{}iyai} I agree with Nath Rao's explanation that for Roman script a simple filter may be best. I would add that because much of my typing is in English with chunks of Sanskrit, including proper names that need uppercase letters but not italics, I prefer not to use a scheme that relies on uppercase letters or that begins a non-English group. What I find quickest and easiest is simply to type a semicolon before any letter that needs a diacritic of any kind. I use a semicolon because it is the easiest non-letter to type (and faster than using a control-key code), it does not normally occur before a letter, and it is relatively unobtrusive visually. Then any context-sensitive filter or group of macros can be used to convert ";Sa;nkara;sarm;a ;Dhu;n;dhir;aja Mu;njat;irtha" into "\'Sa\.nkara\'sarm\=a \d{D}hu\d{n}\d{d}hir\=aja Mu\~njat\={\i}rtha" and so on, throughout the entire document. I haven't used it for Tamil, but for Sanskrit there is only one frequent ambiguity, which I avoid by typing ;x for the retroflex s and reserving ;s for the palatal s. For the less frequent difficulties (word-final velar n and the long r vowel) I simply type in the TeX commands myself, rather than spend more time devising shortcuts. As an example of how to do this, the following six-line ex script can be used within any vi-type text editor to process a file in the course of editing it. If you use UNIX the same script can be used with very slight changes to run either ex or sed on a file directly. The commands determine which type of nasal to use by looking at the following consonant, even if an optional-hyphen (\-) command intervenes. " Ex script for inserting TeX commands for Sanskrit diacritics. " Type text with semicolon before each character that needs diacritic. " Use ;x instead of ;s for the retroflex sibilant (underdot s). " Long r vowel and word-final velar n must be entered manually. " Run from inside vi by entering ":so " in command mode. " For sed script delete % in each line and change " to # in comments. %s/;\([nN][\\-]*[kg]\)/\\\.\1/g "overdot for velar nasal %s/;\([nN][\\-]*[cj]\)/\\\~\1/g "tilde for palatal nasal %s/;\([rlmhtdnxRLMHTDNX]\)/\\d{\1}/g "all the underdots %s/;i/\\={\\i}/g "macron for undotted long i %s/;\([auAIU]\)/\\=\1/g "macrons for other long vowels %s/;\([sS]\)/\\'\1/g "mark for palatal s Something similar could be done for Tamil. If there are too many ambiguities you could also use colons or commas in addition to semicolons (but probably not a period, which occurs before letters in filenames and elsewhere). Gary Tubb, Columbia University. From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Jun 16 20:58:03 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:58:03 -0500 Subject: Asiatische Studien/ Etudes Asiatiques Message-ID: <161227019735.23782.4611008301681109258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How can one order it? Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Jun 16 21:25:51 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 16:25:51 -0500 Subject: email for South Asia Books? Message-ID: <161227019737.23782.14247029663019594387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, The subject says it all. Is there one? Best, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From Kalyans at aol.com Fri Jun 16 21:27:36 1995 From: Kalyans at aol.com (Kalyans at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 17:27:36 -0400 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sara... Message-ID: <161227019739.23782.18329152272853740964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe; thanks a lot for your offer on the Landsat map photos. I deeply appreciate your kindness and help. Kalibangan, Banawali, Dholavira, Rangpur, Lothal, Rupar, Bhagwanpura are on the valley of the Landsat tract of the lost river and very close to the Rann/Cambay complex (regions: Panjab -- now divided Haryana and Panjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat). They do not rank in urban grandeur with Harappa and Mohenjo-daro (Sind and Panjab regions) but many have yielded vivid seals/sealings and other Harappan artefacts. Isn't it notable that the landsat yields the picture of a river that varied between 2 to 10 miles in width over a long stretch, apart from the geological signatures of Indus found in the Cutch Rann/Cambay gulf. Kalyanaraman From navrang at bev.net Fri Jun 16 17:38:42 1995 From: navrang at bev.net (Manisha Singal) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 23:38:42 +0600 Subject: Wanted: Manuscripts and Rare books on Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227019742.23782.14202077140566061191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Our company in India has published more than 60 books on Sri Lanka on subjects ranging from Anthropology, Art, Ayurveda, Buddhism, History, Literature, Politics, and Sociology. We are interested in publishing or reprinting more books. Please send me the following details or direct me in the right direction. For Manuscripts: A copy of the manuscript or a synopsis of the manuscript stating the number of pages, number of photographs (black & white and color), illiustrations, maps, with a write-up about the author. Our company will respond in about 8-12 weeks. For Rare Books: the title, author, year of publication, number of pages, illustrations, photographs, and price. Our company will respond in about 3-4 weeks. We can supply any Indian publications - see our addresses below. Manisha **************************************************************************** ****** Navrang Inc., Post Box 10056, Blacksburg, VA 24062-0056. e-mail: navrang at bev.net, phone: (703) 961-2003 fax: (703) 961-4007 INDIAN MAGAZINES AND BOOKS - any Indian publications REGIONAL MAGAZINES - in many Indian languages US BOOKS FOR CHILDREN - 50% off published prices WWW at http://www.xmission.com/~seer/navrang/index.html Anonymous ftp address: ftp.xmission.com/pub/users/s/seer/navrang From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 17 13:32:03 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 06:32:03 -0700 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sara... Message-ID: <161227019745.23782.15076450534406470643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Rabe; I love your suggestion of Mesopotamia-East or Doab-West. I am intrigued by the ancient term 'Maru' for the desert. In Tamil, maru-tam is agricultural region! We will have to search far and deep into the 'bangAN's -- ther or thel'. With the best regards. Kalyanaraman. From RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu Sat Jun 17 11:32:55 1995 From: RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu (RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 06:32:55 -0500 Subject: Landsat, Geology and Sara... Message-ID: <161227019743.23782.16722586557295457713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kalyanaraman-ji, How about Mespotamia-East or Doab-West? With your trusty bibliography, the search is on! M.Rabe From torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it Sat Jun 17 23:24:16 1995 From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it (torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 95 00:24:16 +0100 Subject: nyAyas Message-ID: <161227019747.23782.9132774120438672370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am looking for the largest collections of nyAyas (maxims, examples) available either in printed or manuscript form. They often prove to be an unvaluable help for understanding the gist of the arguments within which they occur. I have already got in my personal or Department library: G.A. Jacob, LaukikanyAyAJjali S.B. Singh, NyAyAvali Chavinath Mizra, NyAyoktikoza. The latter often refers to one NyAyasAhasrI. Does anybody know where I can find this text ? Any information about this and other texts of this kind will be welcome. Raffaele Torella From B.Loturco at agora.stm.it Sun Jun 18 15:42:13 1995 From: B.Loturco at agora.stm.it (B.Loturco at agora.stm.it) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 95 15:42:13 +0000 Subject: Location of two texts Message-ID: <161227019748.23782.1732047267777146016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody tell where these two texts, kAzyazilpa and aMzubhedAgama, can be found? Thanks in advance for any suggestion. Bruno Lo Turco --- MMMR v3.60unr * Bruno Lo Turco  From GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de Mon Jun 19 07:52:10 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 07:52:10 +0000 Subject: nyAyas Message-ID: <161227019751.23782.4274512556946403939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date sent: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 23:28:33 BST > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it > To: Members of the list > Subject: nyAyas > > Dear Colleagues, > > I am looking for the largest collections of nyAyas (maxims, examples) > available either in printed or manuscript form. They often prove to be > an unvaluable help for understanding the gist of the arguments within > which they occur. > I have already got in my personal or Department library: > G.A. Jacob, LaukikanyAyAJjali > S.B. Singh, NyAyAvali > Chavinath Mizra, NyAyoktikoza. > The latter often refers to one NyAyasAhasrI. Does anybody know where > I can find this text ? Any information about this and other texts of this > kind will be welcome. > > Raffaele Torella > Generally speaking, it is always a good idea to turn to the New Catalogus Catalogorum (and Aufrecht's Cat. Cat.), an often neglected reference tool. There you will find a short entry for the NyAyasAhasrI of BhuvaneZa. In a way, the NCC is the most comprehensive "history of Sanskrit literature" that will ever be available. So let's hope that some day it will be completed. Another possible source of information are printed library catalogues of Sanskrit books, in particular the India Office Library Catalogue in four volumes, however, not in this particular case, it seems. Sorry to bother you with such elementary stuff. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de Mon Jun 19 08:01:38 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:01:38 +0000 Subject: Location of two texts Message-ID: <161227019753.23782.5521917921116706312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date sent: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 14:45:22 BST > Send reply to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > From: B.Loturco at agora.stm.it > To: Members of the list > Subject: Location of two texts > Could anybody tell where these two texts, kAzyazilpa and aMzubhedAgama, can > > be found? > Thanks in advance for any suggestion. > > Bruno Lo Turco > > --- MMMR v3.60unr * Bruno Lo Turco I'm not sure what the question is about. Are you looking for bibliographical data or for books. As to the former, the kAzyapazilpa was published in 1926 as vol. 95 of the Anandasrama Sanskrit Series. The aMzubhedAgama is not even mentioned in the New Catalogus Catalogorum. Could it be a short title? Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 19 15:36:03 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:36:03 -0700 Subject: Tantric Studies journal Message-ID: <161227019758.23782.1769490683403143014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be thankful for help with the email address to subscribe to this Intl. journal online. Regards. Kalyanaraman. From GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de Mon Jun 19 09:16:14 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 09:16:14 +0000 Subject: Location of two texts (AGAIN) Message-ID: <161227019754.23782.376721121664954518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my earlier reply I forgot to mention the reference to aMzumadbheda and similar titles in the New Catalogus Catalogorum, vol. 1, p. 1, s.v. aMzumat; cf. also vol. 4, p. 147, s.v. kAzyapazilpa. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 19 12:16:54 1995 From: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk (goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 13:16:54 +0100 Subject: Location of two texts Message-ID: <161227019756.23782.5064668975808585593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The a.m"subheda is the name of one of the 28 tantras of the "Saiva Siddhaanta. (It is also known as the a.m"sumattantra.) A number of manuscripts in the IFI in Pondicherry transmit what purports to be this work. Dominic Goodall From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 20 06:11:21 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 23:11:21 -0700 Subject: Ancient South Asian word for 'cereal' Message-ID: <161227019761.23782.2038576061185090194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Franklin C. Southworth, 1973, Cereals in South Asian Prehistory: The Linguistic Evidence, in: Kenneth A.R. Kennedy and Gregory L. Possehl, eds., Ecological Backgrounds of South Asian Prehistory, Cornell University analyzes the presence of rice in the Harappan seaport of Lothal (Gujarat) and the South Asian linguistic evidence for words denoting cereals, cultivation, etc. His fascinating conclusion is that a hypothesis may be postulated re: a South Asian linguistic area including the extended area of the Harappan sites. This area included speakers of Indo-Aryan, Dravidian and Munda languages... One word mentioned, in passing, in this study, may be analyzed further: kaNak (Punjabi) = wheat. -kug (Munda) = rice kanku (Sanskrit) = a panic seed, millet (setaria italica) kaNa (Kannada, Hindi, Sanskrit) a small particle or grain of anything, a grain of corn; kaNaja (Kannada) a granary, a store for grain; kaNgA (Marathi) a corn bin, a large basket, a safe for grain, a granary. kangnI (Hindi), kangoNi (Kannada) a kind of grain much eaten by the poorer classes in many paarts of India, millet (Panicum italicum); kangi (Hindi) a granary, a store of grain. kanji (Hindi) rice-water in general, although it properly denotes rice-water which has been converted into an acid beverage by acetous fermentation. kankI, kanakI (Hindi), kaNikI (Sanskrit) ground rice; kanki (Telugu) head or ear of corn. kaNa (Kannada) a threshing or treading-floor, where the grain is trodden out; kANAchi (Kannada) a hereditary estate; kANi-ATci (Tamil) that which is held in free and hereditary property; kaNakku (Tamil, Malayalam) accounts; kaNe (Kannada) a roller or cylinder of a mill, whether horizontal or perpendicular. khAngi-zamindArI (Hindi) the household expenses of a zamindar. kANi bhAgoa (Oriya) laborers in Cuttack paid in both money and kind. kA Ni (Kannada) a piece of inferior land not included in that which is rented. If a word for ?cereal? has to be found in the Indus-Sarasvati inscriptions, one phoneme to be included in the search is perhaps: kaNk. Regards. Kalyanaraman. From torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it Mon Jun 19 23:06:35 1995 From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it (torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 00:06:35 +0100 Subject: nyAyas Message-ID: <161227019759.23782.1789169653474871527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Gruenendahl, thank you very much for your response. Indeed, you are right in saying that the NCC is an often neglected tool. But too many times I happened not to find any mention there of MSS I had just seen or even photographed in various libraries (I might quote several examples of MSS in Srinagar, Tanjore, Trivandrum, Kathmandu etc.). Moreover, as the NCC usually depends on the old printed catalogues, it is bound to reproduce the many mistakes that are found in them. Thus, after many a frustrating experience, I progressively ended up by not consulting it any more. This is certainly a mistake, too, - I agree - but not without reasons. With regards, Raffaele Torella From stampe at uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu Tue Jun 20 17:04:27 1995 From: stampe at uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (David Stampe) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 07:04:27 -1000 Subject: Ancient South Asian word for 'cereal' Message-ID: <161227019764.23782.4774645636911509675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The form that Kalyanaraman cites for Munda -kug (Munda) = rice is incorrect: the proto-Munda form was *ru[ng]kug. My authority is a comparative Munda dictionary I am compiling with Patricia Donegan and Norman Zide. Neither the correct nor the incorrect form can be related, even as a loan, to the Indo-Aryan or Dravidian forms that he summarizes as kaNk. David Stampe Dept. of Linguistics, Univ. of Hawaii/Manoa, Honolulu HI 96822 From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Tue Jun 20 07:44:29 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 08:44:29 +0100 Subject: Asiatische Studien/ Etudes Asiatiques Message-ID: <161227019762.23782.7938307088999792462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >How can one order it? > >Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages >Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba >Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca >fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 > > Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques can in principle be ordered (subscriptions as well as single issues) from the editor: Peter Lang Jupiterstrasse 15 3015 Bern Switzerland In case of difficulties, please inform me. Johannes Bronkhorst Herve Mesot Herve.Mesot at ulys.unil.ch Ferrage 19 Tel.(011)(+41)(21)634.18.64 CH 1023 Crissier Suisse From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 20 21:11:24 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 14:11:24 -0700 Subject: Ancient South Asian word for 'cereal' Message-ID: <161227019765.23782.10237347506831768013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further elucidations responding to Prof. Stampe's observations on ru(ng) kug = rice: Let me cite from Southworth: "For the Munda languages, we are fortunate to have two recent articles by Arlene and Norman Zide which deal with reconstructions of cultural vocabulary, including cereals. They courageously suggest a date of 3500 BP as the date for proto-Munda, and claim that the vocabulary of the speakers of proto-Munda included terms for 'husked (and uncooked) rice'... *ru-kug 'uncooked husked rice (cf. Korku rum 'to husk')(Zide, 1973:7); *(h)oXy 'setaria italica' (a milet) (Zide, 1973: 8-9); Koraput Munda *a-rig 'panicum miliare (cf. Kherwarian iRi)(Zide 1973:8-9); [likely to be a borrowing from dravidian based on DED 445: irak 'food'] *guXm 'winnow' (up-and-down motion)(Zide, ms.: 3)...." Zide references cited are: Zide, A. and N. Zide, 1973 Semantic reconstructions in proto-Munda cultural Vocabulary I. Indian Linguisics 34: 1-24; n.d. Proto-Munda cultural vocablary: evidence for early agriculture, Chicago, Univ. o Chicago, Munda Languages Project, Unpublished manuscript [cited on p.236 of Southworth's article referred to in my earlier note]. I am not able to access many Dravidian forms readily; but if my recollection serves me right, konku (Tamil) also refers to a 'cereal' [cf. also konku-nATu]. Bengali (contiguous to Oriya) prefers the vowel sound 'o' to replace 'a'. kaNku, konku are permissible phonetic variants in South asian. Is it erroneous to link phonetic forms such as -kug and konku within a semantic cluster of contiguous linguistic sub-areas? Kalyanaraman. From stampe at uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu Wed Jun 21 05:28:26 1995 From: stampe at uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (David Stampe) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 19:28:26 -1000 Subject: Ancient South Asian word for 'cereal' Message-ID: <161227019767.23782.13313347541519864038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kalyans at ix.netcom.com (Srinivasan Kalyanaraman) writes > Let me cite from Southworth: > > "For the Munda languages, we are fortunate to have > two recent articles by Arlene and Norman Zide which > deal with reconstructions of cultural vocabulary, > including cereals. They courageously suggest a date > of 3500 BP as the date for proto-Munda, and claim > that the vocabulary of the speakers of proto-Munda > included terms for 'husked (and uncooked) rice'... > *ru-kug 'uncooked husked rice (cf. Korku rum 'to > husk')(Zide, 1973:7) > [other unrelated forms dispensed with - DS] As I pointed out, you cited only the second syllable of the Munda form. The syllable does not appear independently with the meaning `rice'. Despite the Korku form */rum/ there is no evidence that */ruGkug/ (where G is the velar nasal) is a compound form. Here is the Munda evidence: proto-Munda */ruGkug/ `uncooked husked rice': Sora /roGko/, Gorum /ru~k(u)/, Gutob /ruku:/ (Ramamurti 1938), Remo /ru~ku/ (Fernandez), /ruGku/ (Bhattacharya), Kharia /romku'b/, Juang /ruGkub/, Mundari /roGko/. [The velar to labial changes in Kharia after a labial vowel are paralleled in other forms, and do not point to Korku /rum/.] The forms you cited from IA and Dravidian are of the general shape kaNk, as you noted, not kug. > I am not able to access many Dravidian forms readily; > but if my recollection serves me right, konku (Tamil) > also refers to a 'cereal' [cf. also konku-nATu]. If you mean to compare the ku syllable of the Tamil form, isn't the vowel simply the automatic enunciative vowel? > Bengali (contiguous to Oriya) prefers the vowel sound > 'o' to replace 'a'. > > kaNku, konku are permissible phonetic variants in > South asian. But none of this gets closer to Munda */ruGkug/. > Is it erroneous to link phonetic forms such as -kug > and konku within a semantic cluster of contiguous > linguistic sub-areas? Obviously, it's erroneous to compare only the second syllable of the Munda word */ruGkug/ `rice' to the second syllable of the Sanskrit form /kanku/ `millet', and then compare the remainder of the IA and Dr. forms you cite to the first syllable of the Sanskrit form. You might as well compare English Here-ford `species of cattle' to English horse and German Pferd, and note that cattle and horses are all farm animals in the Germanic Kulturkreis. David Stampe, Linguistics, Hawai`i From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 21 06:21:42 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 23:21:42 -0700 Subject: More on cereals Message-ID: <161227019769.23782.5968147325295748904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Stampe makes a valid argument that ru- prefix is integral to Munda etyma. His impressive repertoire of Munda forms is indeed food for deeper linguistic thought and further analyses. Is it possible that the Korku rum = to husk is derived from Munda? [cf. Telugu rubbu = to grind; Tamil uru(TTu) = to roll]. What are the Munda words meaning 'to husk' or 'to grind'? Semant. ru(ng) kug = husked rice. Are there other words for unhusked rice or paddy (seeds) or rice in the stalk, like vrIhi [*var(i)ci paddy (DED 178, 42306); Koraput Munda a-rig 'panicum miliare; Kherwarian *iRi 'panicum crus-galli'; Tamil ari 'rice, paddy'; also, a bundle of corn, a heap of grain before the straw is separated from it; vari 'rice in the stalk, paddy' [cf. also Tamil vari = tax; Marathi virA = cess on persons possessing rent-free lands; Tamil virai = seed of plants; Telugu virALamu tax or impost]; Parji verci 'paddy'? But, cf. Tamil arici any kind of grain, but especially rice freed from chaff. Oriya aruwA = rice cleaned from unboiled paddy. It should be noted that Zide's *ru-kug is a hypothetical construction or a proto-form. I am extremely grateful to Prof. Stampe for the vivid enlightenment on Munda forms; certainly, I have to learn a lot more, for e.g. did Munda proto-forms (of particularly economic terms) stay totally excluded from socio-economic exchanges with, say, Oriya and/or Maithili? Kalyanaraman. From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 21 13:46:22 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 06:46:22 -0700 Subject: More cereal words: boro, varaku etc. Message-ID: <161227019772.23782.3016668139754685112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> More on South asian cereal words: boro, varaku etc. Tamil varaku = a kind of grain (paspalum frumentaceum); it is also applied to other kinds of millet, as pulvaraku = panicum colonum. vAvar (Marathi) the cultivated or cultivable land in a village. bhurari, bhUrurI (Hindi) corn remaining in the ear after it has been trodden down, especially applied to the grains of the rabi crop. boro (Hindi, Bengali) a sort of rice sown in January and reaped in April: it is sown in low swampy ground, or near the banks of a river where irrigation is not required; boro fazl = the season of spring, or that in which the boro rice is reaped. bora = a sack for holding rice. buRRi (Hindi) sowing seed by dropping it from the hand into the furrow, instead of sowing broadcast or by drill. cf. virai-kAl (Tamil) land fit for sowing. birinj (Hindi, Punjabi) rice; birinjAri (Hindi, Punjabi) a dealer in rice following camps; more correctly banjAri; birinjphal (Hindi) a sort of rice. bIr (Hindi) pasturage, grass land; birhAnA (Hindi) lands in which culinary herbs are grown. buranT (Marathi) a place overgrown with grass and bushes. birra (Hindi) gram and barley sown in the same field; in Delhi district, chana or gram injured by wet; birra (Hindi) entry of the different crops of the village lands under separate heads in patwAri's accounts. bURa-Tukra (Bengali) an account of village receipts and disbursments made up for six or eight months by the patwArI and balanced. vAra (Kanada) a share of the crop or of the produce of a field. Hindi baRhni, buRhnee = advance on a contract for goods or grain.[Perhaps, linked to vrddhi increase, interest; intersecting with bAoni, baoner (Hindi) seed-time, sowing; vAvani (Gujarati) act of sowing seed].[vayal (Tamil, Malayalam a rice-field, ground fit for rice cultivation; any open field or plain; vayar-k-karai (Tamil) a rice corn field]. vArakamu (Telugu) advance made to cultivators to enable them to carry on cultivation. Kalyanaraman From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 21 13:55:35 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 06:55:35 -0700 Subject: Markaka etc. Message-ID: <161227019770.23782.15197471533452263984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cognate with varaka etc. in South asian is the so-called Indo-Aryan: markaka = ardea argala, maize (cf. Turner 9879, 9884). Hundreds of examples of v -- m transforms are attested. Koraput Munda *deray = ragi (Zide, 1973).[Intimations of hyper-Sanskritism of Munda ru-kug??] cf. also priyangu = panicum italicum, millet (Turner 8976). Kalyanaraman. From r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Jun 21 17:16:45 1995 From: r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no (r.l.schmidt at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 19:16:45 +0200 Subject: Conference for Urdu Teachers Message-ID: <161227019774.23782.8677265961834249358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Net Subscribers: I am looking for information about the European-wide Conference for Urdu Teachers: what it is, where and when it meets, and where I can write to get more information about it. Thank you for your help. Best wishes, Ruth Schmidt From garzilli at shore.net Thu Jun 22 00:24:28 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 20:24:28 -0400 Subject: IJTS WWW pages Message-ID: <161227019775.23782.11457358404384302027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear David, every day after 5 p.m. and on Saturdays and Sundays the connections between USA and Italy are fast. Otherwise they are pretty slow. Companies do not work and do not use the net on Sat. etc. The problem is not our site or our machines. Our Laboratory (Arcadia) uses two 2 Mb connections to Internet. However, if anybody wants to offer us an account to host our WWW pages...it would be a gift form the heaven! (Of course we would update the pages ourselves) Thank you for keeping me informed. eg (Editor of the IJTS) ----------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, David Magier wrote: > > INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES > > > The home page on WWW is found at: > > http://arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ > > Is anyone else having trouble with this URL or is it just me? Each > time I try, either the connection is refused by the server, or I do > connect but then it takes a very long time for the page to come in > (and many of the links seem to be dead ends). I suspect this is a very > slow server (or at least a low-bandwidth link to North America), > because I have had the exact same problems with the other journal on > the same server (Int'l Journal of Vedic Studies). Perhaps one or two > mirror sites (e.g. in North America) are needed? > > David Magier > > From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Thu Jun 22 15:17:38 1995 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:17:38 -0700 Subject: New Message. Message-ID: <161227019783.23782.1605269527629171119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: June 22, 1995 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, While we are on the subject of etyma purportedly shared by IE and Dravidian, could someone help me to discern whether there is a connection between (and trace the technical and earliest uses of): 1) The apparently Dravidian root, paTTi (DED 3199) meaning "town, hamlet, dwelling place, abode (of animals or humans), animal- fold, nest, etc. and the apparently IE paTTana, city. 2) The apparently IE term amaawaasye meaning 'new moon, sometimes specifically the new moon falling in July-August' and the Kannada term ame (DED S25), meaning birth pollution. My reason for suspecting some sort of connection in this case is that under some circumstances amaawaasye is regarded as an inauspicious (if not polluting) time, and some deities in South India are called amaawaasye devaru and their priests have the authority (power) to remove the pollution of birth (ame). The connection could, of course, be purely a folk etymological one. Peter J. Claus fax: 510-727-2276 Phone: 510-704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 22 15:19:44 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:19:44 -0700 Subject: Michael Jansen Message-ID: <161227019784.23782.14687048411879289521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone help me with the email contact address of Michael Jansen of German Research Project-Mohenjodaro? Thanks. Kalyanaraman kalyans at ix.netcom.com From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Thu Jun 22 10:30:42 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 11:30:42 +0100 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227019777.23782.12258736353922518630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:58:07, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Wed, > 22 Feb 1995 06:58:05 MET >Message-ID: <2f4b4c69.uclblr at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in> >Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:56:22 GMT >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Dominik Wujastyk >To: Members of the list >Subject: Re: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list > >Anshuman Pandey said: > >[...] > >> The above explanations and scenarios answer many problems philologists >> have faced and raised for around 200 years. It also settles the question >> of the cultural unity of India. The Aryans and Dravidians together shaped >> the languages and culture of India. >> (Source: Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalsism By S.G. Talageri, and >> The Hindu Phenomenon By Girilal Jain) > >We are going to go on getting this sort of material periodically posted >to INDOLOGY for the simple reason that the ideas are out there, being >energetically promoted by Hindu fundamentalists and others who may not >realize the sinister communalist and anti-muslim agenda that underlies >and accompanies such propaganda. > >Do any of the INDOLOGY members who are professional university-level >teachers of Sanskrit, Old Persian, Greek, Tamil, archaeology, or other >relevant topics, have time to put together a short, careful response to >such claims, pointing out the principle evidence for the received >opinion concerning Indian pre-history? Or perhaps someone already has a >document of this kind on their PC? Perhaps someone has written some >book reviews of the above books or the materials by Frawley, Kak, or >similar contemporary writers? I feel sure that someone amongst us who >deals professionally with PIE, historical phonology, early archaeology, >etc., has the appropriate materials readily to hand. The resulting >statement could be added to the files available from the INDOLOGY >file-server, or could be sent on an individual basis to enquirers. > >This would be a singular service to INDOLOGY. > >Dominik > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 22 11:23:37 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 12:23:37 +0100 Subject: LaTeX2e and Velthuis Devanagari Message-ID: <161227019779.23782.16325776119471616203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a question here recently about using Frans Velthuis's Devanagari fonts with the new LaTeX2e. I append a zipped, uuencoded file which contains the style file and font definition file that will do the trick. This is still a work in progress, but it seems to work for me. Enjoy! Dominik begin 644 devl2e.zip M4$L#!!0``@`(`%53.!Y at 3ZL^L@$``'\%```(````3U0Q1$XN1D2EDUUKVS`4 MAN\#^0_GHJ$PUL0*;=H$UU?G$V\V81?V M?[:8GB^\.&N?.3:[)] M\X*<&[C^X.FD-PGI5D98<4Y2 at TD.3B)RAI4-.A,N<52'B&>4[H&D2SC6UPT# ME$*%).,QW!BPZ%+;"6[W36]S3?B"S[!R^#6F*)IKKD6"&7Z&YX1$XDBV,>>% M`16]SJ:=_*]OA=J1G=#*.JY>%UW_;#;@%O"[+5NB2'F!3F;5N*RLM[H*95W5 M;RK6"<_Q6)#5E?T.!]`<_R+P9X%_&80[&5^-#N&K`/QY`#%*^`0N=\@P[ZPI M9IZM;O3^+Z9%I^:?!:!UN>V`DVPBWP4 at TQO0VX-.>P/Z>=B^'-?V84!_"_UV MT1+ZN^BWC9;P#A?N':&TKSTOS7#P!U!+`P04``(`"``@;KH>HW/7SXW`NE^_<>L4?L MX5NUG+$$5B&,C%VSA_>=^1=8"2.49,'HF+'@]'1Z.)X>ALM;\`08ETREJ8@%S]F#;%UF(#'H`5.EQ4U''9$! MC=#1.#H<'Q\&1.EX%H:S8,+8N2J$%!=_?*K^XJC(!<4IQJQ(!#*J2A:KPM$A MV%N at P1W08#H+3KX-^J,4E at CK)KZ!>\L_PN\AL)+'%R1DJC2KC)!+]AOD-JN$ MV3?L'%9<\B77`M>E=2><_Y=/L^D'7I0Y,"'+RK)1(EDJ9]P>9;'G_ M(Q^?_S:]J)@C>.8-=[E^[@KAR_]#._I9JY5(P+Q&LG774YO/KB:H)+YXOS.1 M5C*!5$A(:@,YQ):RB"B,X:9G.7*^!JWKCQFP/QW0/O;!&B7P%8U5OV9*YFNV M`"P.K$LG35,ZHZ]??W)06Y]?C#N[A?$JY`=_SY(G>$J&&WV_7QNUT2V](<*/F:%P(E\L<1KO*5#1(Y2I/1DT;(3X#Y4!IF@]PG";D2#@=.4>B5][%BCSO`1QY3,;+LM0*.P5K MF*U`TV1S0GH,TX0M@:(,:.OR0_O[>1JA?K&JI/6`WH`',`.&S1G/(>55;CU' M?SRI;LT'CX)U at E][@#EV-J31LWJ#M4=0U&AW+XZV#OHTF4&>2*4!)JI,2#93 M=,9&6>)TBU"3R/=NA[K;`40D<'LQS%A M1VYL-.?$&G6_OG'4Z,Q-RDV4I=7-S?RHM'1XFEDQ7MF>CG%J^$:\8GY"N3T+ MCCD:;-QT"V6-.?&<4L2P*17"B+G%J=%D9A!,]<-CB[5!?>K&1P8:#EI%R4KQ MLAT&,?YU96($7?9LJ555XL8?5%-2;9ZNE-RWS)188:[D:"Y at YZ&ED^67T_1.0S;VL6EW"'K8HED\I! M1]AV-RMI,[N]/$LBH&(F\+W-2\54:]A(O#I(A(6__<:&KQ(8[T7U-&A7YI'>.':"]#2%ZRD MKQ']>>8=Z.1X*45).<::7:AK[`J_4N\%.`]$OMGT^.,ZRG->UA&Q"R9N2I`] M&-HG86?;B],NX5C.BNJA\3'<\B#3CN`DYV"1AW[L]WPN_<3W=Q[V6XY'O!7KA#Q'3B[\O+72).C_J`ZYV$&@2L=PF8]-)>WNR6ZL$6 M*UX[.<9.MM!+XW[T+ at OO$J##N-%NN!SWRSJQ=QR^WZK[;N<70W-/2)LZT at 6. M?[RM\"V#7BZB'"S.C7EO;'T3NU7SIQU*(G'JU"Y0N@?_>=(NQ<7M)4U+SMSB M2I)1I(T#TT2)H9`1Y`90S53X=Q at _DOTM5@\?(1[1J-M^;FB,_NGA>=F]JM'4 MPI>'YB9M7R/H0>+^O;\!4$L#!!0``@`(`$97UAY@+2!([4E$YU=8%'D" M%@2!EI%6UA5SC'!'[=`V<*$QTN\+?]I.*=ZW`&=%EE\; M=X"[C+WL^PJ#(=R^0A^U,/1RWQ3)8O&F10XK/Y_>?MD)I<[D+\@/\W at KPP@J5E%ZXK%LKX M+6\NP0T>QV+XJW(^8$^K/K(!``!_!0`` M"``````````!`"``MH$`````3U0Q1$XN1D102P$"%`84``(`"``@;KH>HW On Thu, 22 Jun 95 11:51:01, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Thu, > 22 Jun 1995 11:51:01 MET >Message-ID: <54394.michaels at relwi.unibe.ch> >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:48:15 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Axel Michaels >To: Members of the list >Subject: Re: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list > >On Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:58:07, >indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: Dear colleagues, The following (old) message was by mistake sent to you once more. I apologize for the inconvenience created. Axel Michaels > >>Return-Path: >>Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Wed, >> 22 Feb 1995 06:58:05 MET >>Message-ID: <2f4b4c69.uclblr at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in> >>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:56:22 GMT >>Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >>Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >>Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >>Precedence: bulk >>From: Dominik Wujastyk >>To: Members of the list >>Subject: Re: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. >>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >>X-Comment: Indology mailing list >> >>Anshuman Pandey said: >> >>[...] >> >>> The above explanations and scenarios answer many problems philologists >>> have faced and raised for around 200 years. It also settles the question >>> of the cultural unity of India. The Aryans and Dravidians together shaped >>> the languages and culture of India. >>> (Source: Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalsism By S.G. Talageri, and >>> The Hindu Phenomenon By Girilal Jain) >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 23 04:43:33 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 21:43:33 -0700 Subject: ...sport Message-ID: <161227019788.23782.3246044041919591771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please try something like: lIlA viLai-y-ATal ATTam vilAsam depending on the focus of your work (you can find synonyms in Amarakoza). Good luck with your thesis. Kalyanaraman. From sarba001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Jun 23 04:18:45 1995 From: sarba001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Stuart R. Sarbacker) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 23:18:45 -0500 Subject: ...sport Message-ID: <161227019786.23782.13199301900956730231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of a textual reference which would describe the "sporting" or "sport" of the gods in the deva or heavenly realms? I am looking for a passage to use in the dedication of my master's thesis, and it would be extremely appropriate if I could find something in this league. The word "sport" (or equivalent) is of utmost importance in the sentiment of the dedication. Thanks for your kind help. SRS From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 23 10:31:10 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 03:31:10 -0700 Subject: Ancient words of greetings Message-ID: <161227019790.23782.5259273464482819121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PAli texts (canonical) attest to the use of: 'bho', 'bhante' (gotama, bhagavA) as modes of address and 'saddhiM sammodi' as a form of salutation. I shall be grateful for elucidation on the etymology of these words and for similar words of greetings in ancient forms of south asian languages. Kalyanaraman From WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jun 23 17:57:09 1995 From: WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:57:09 -0400 Subject: slowness of IJTS/EJVS WWW pages Message-ID: <161227019795.23782.13325818145472403352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding difficulties to get a connection at Milano or the slowness of such connections I heard the same during my recent lecture tour in East Asia from some of my Japanese friends. Personally, I never had a problem when I checked the WWW pages by "Netscape" from Cambridge/Mass. and I get (also today) an immediate connection. By modem, of course, this will be rather slow. However, to alleviate the problem apparently existing for some users we will try to establish some mirror sites in strategical locations on various continents. I will keep you informed. -- Michael Witzel Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies Harvard University 617 495 3295 On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, David Magier wrote: > > INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES > > > The home page on WWW is found at: > > http://arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ > > Is anyone else having trouble with this URL or is it just me? Each > time I try, either the connection is refused by the server, or I do > connect but then it takes a very long time for the page to come in > (and many of the links seem to be dead ends). I suspect this is a very > slow server (or at least a low-bandwidth link to North America), > because I have had the exact same problems with the other journal on > the same server (Int'l Journal of Vedic Studies). Perhaps one or two > mirror sites (e.g. in North America) are needed? > > David Magier From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Jun 23 19:08:41 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 14:08:41 -0500 Subject: Prof. Brenda Beck Message-ID: <161227019797.23782.17028161278558397619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 23, 1995 Does any one know Dr. Brenda Beck's e-mail address. Does she use it? She did anthroplological studies about Kongu region from where I hail from. She is at Univ. of Toronto now. Thanks, Yours n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov Some of Brenda Beck's books: 93-907289: Annanmar Cuvami katai. English and Tamil. Elder brothers story, an oral epic of Tamil / 1st ed. Madras, India : Institute of Asian Studies, 1992. 2 v. : ill., map ; 25 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.9.A578 A24 1992 88-17367: Oral epics in India / Berkeley : University of California Press, c1989. xi, 290 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: PK2917 .O7 1989 86-7112: Folktales of India / Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1987. xxxi, 357 p. : ill., map ; 23 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: GR305 .F65 1987 The three twins : the telling of a South Indian folk epic / Bloomington : Indiana University Press, c1982. 248 p. LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.2 .B4 1982 79-906741: Perspectives on a regional culture : essays about the Coimbatore Area of South India / New Delhi : Vikas, c1979. xiii, 211 p. LC CALL NUMBER: DS485.K65 P47 72-81828: Beck, Brenda E. F. Peasant society in Konku; a study of right and left subcastes in South India Vancouver, University of British Columbia Press [1972] xix, 334 p. 24 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: HN690.T3 B4 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Jun 23 13:07:06 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 15:07:06 +0200 Subject: Rudrabhata's Jagannathavijaya Message-ID: <161227019792.23782.4686034010400784743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of an edition of Rudrabhatta's Jagannathavijaya, written under Vira Ballala II of the Hoysala dynasty (1173-1220)? I am interested in a bibliographic reference and would also like to know where I can find a copy of the text (or get it copied!!). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no >?From D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk 23 95 Jun EDT 17:39:00 Date: 23 Jun 95 17:39:00 EDT From: D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Upcoming conference on Ayurveda etc. Reply-To: D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Traditional Asian Medicine in the Modern World Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 16-17 November 1995 The International Association for the Study of Traditional Asian Medicine (IASTAM) is pleased to announce its first Regional Symposium, which will be held in London in collaboration with the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine on 16-17 November 1995. The symposium will consider the topic of "Traditional Asian Medicine in the Modern World", and will be convened by Dr. Lawrence I. Conrad, President of IASTAM, at the Auditorium of the Wellcome Building, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. The IASTAM regional symposia have been launched in light of the fact that the Association's primary venue, the International Conference for the Study of Traditional Asian Medicine (ICTAM), is convened only about once every five years, and is held in an Asian country. The regional symposia will rotate among other parts of the world, and will hopefully serve the triple purpose of 1) ensuring the vitality of the organization during the long gaps between the ICTAM meetings in Asia, 2) providing venues for discussion to members who find it difficult to attend the major meetings, and 3) enhance the exposure of IASTAM and its members to researchers, practitioners, and professional societies of relevance to IASTAM's interests worldwide. In the first Regional Symposium, an effort will be made to formulate an overview of the current situation and position of the indigenous medical systems of the Middle East, South Asia, and East Asia. We hope to discuss such issues as how practitioners are trained, what their social position is, how potential patients choose medical alternatives in cases where traditional medicine is available, the extent to which coexisting medical traditions compete or cooperate, and how these traditions are perceived and approached by external elements (e.g. government, health services, welfare and charitable institutions, etc.). We would also like to consider the rising interest in TAM in the West, and the factors underlying this. The symposium will consist of one session on each of the three traditions we propose to consider, followed on the second day by a general discussion. The symposium will be open to the public and will be widely advertised; we expect that there will be considerable interest among medical and other historians, medical practitioners in general, and students. The registration fee of 20.00 pounds covers 17.5% VAT and includes morning coffee, buffet lunch (vegetarian options available), and afternoon tea on both days. A reduced rate of 14.00 pounds is available to students, current full members of IASTAM, and members of the Friends of the Wellcome Institute. To register for the Symposium, please fill out the attached registration form and return it with a cheque for the appropriate fee to the conference secretary, Ms. Mohsina Somji, at the Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. All registration fees must be paid in pounds sterling by cheque or bank draft drawn on a UK bank, or by Eurocheque, payable to the "Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine". Members of IASTAM North America may pay the registration fees in US dollars ($22.00) by check to the NA Chapter. Please send the registration form to Ms. Mohsina Somji in London now, but send your check after 1 August and payable to "IASTAM North America" to Dr. Steve Ferzacca, Dept. of Anthropology, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, PA. 19010. The Wellcome Institute is located in the centre of London, with excellent road, bus, underground, and rail connections to all parts of the capital, Heathrow and Gatwick airports, and the rest of the country. There is a wide variety of hotel accommodation in all price ranges within easy walking distance of the Institute. While participants in the Symposium will have to pursue such arrangements on their own, we will be happy to provide recommendations, addresses, and telephone numbers. For accommodation arrangements and other matters concerning the Symposium, please contact Ms. Somji by post (address as above), telephone (0171) 611-8649, or fax (0171) 611-8562. We look forward to seeing you in London. Lawrence I. Conrad President, IASTAM Historian of Near Eastern Medicine, WIHM .............................................................. Please register me for the IASTAM Regional Symposium, "Traditional Asian Medicine in the Modern World". Enclosed is my registration fee of: ____ 20.00 pounds (regular rate) ____ 14.00 pounds (IASTAM members, students, Friends of the Wellcome Institute) Name____________________________________________________________ (please print) Address_________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Traditional Asian Medicine in the Modern World Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine 16-17 November 1995 SPEAKERS AND PAPERS (scheduling details to be announced) East Asia ========= Bridie Andrews (Cambridge University) Creating the New Science of Chinese Medicine, 1890s to 1950s Elizabeth Hsu (Universitat Zurich) Learning Chinese Medicine in Classrooms and Clinics of Kunming City, PRC Dr. Kiichiro Tsutani (Tokyo Medical Dental University) Culture or Rational Use: the Controversy over Kampo Medicine in Japan Vivienne Lo (School of Oriental and African Studies) Acumoxa Therapy in Britain: A Case for Preventative Medicine Professor Paul Unschuld (Universitat Munchen) Traditional Chinese Medicine in Germany Middle East =========== Dr. Anne-Marie Moulin (Institut National de la Sant{e et de la Recherche Me'dicale, Paris) Islamic Bioethics in North Africa Dr. Sylvia Chiffoleau (Maison de l'Orient M{editerrane'en, Lyon) Islamic Medical Practice in Modern Egypt Dr. Aref Abu-Rabia (Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beersheba) Bedouin Traditional Healers and Western Medicine Dr. Mohammed Ali Albar (King Abd al-Aziz University, Jeddah) Prophetic and Herbal Medicine in Modern Arabia Dr. Claudia Liebeskind (Royal Holloway and Bedford New College) From Person to System: the Meaning of the Professionalisation of Unani Medicine in British India South Asia ========== Dr. Harish Naraindas (Johns Hopkins University) The Shaping of a Native Medical Practitioner Vaidya Ram Manohar (Foundation for the Revitalization of Local Health Traditions, Bangalore) Ayurveda Today Professor B.V. Subbarayappa (Indian Institute of World Culture, Bangalore) South Indian Medicine: the Siddha System Professor Kenneth G. Zysk (New York University) New Age Ayurveda: Traditional Indian Medicine in the Modern West ............................................................. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE Tel: +44 171 611 8467 FAX: +44 171 611 8545 From relpbc at emory.edu Fri Jun 23 22:39:48 1995 From: relpbc at emory.edu (Paul B. Courtright) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 18:39:48 -0400 Subject: Wilson's 1855 work: reprints Message-ID: <161227019799.23782.4709723069173510898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am working on the life and contributions of Horace Hayman Wilson (1786-1860). I would be grateful for any suggestions about sources, themes, or assessments of his influence as a scholar of Indian religions. I am principally interested in his life and work as a cultural broker between Hindus, East India Company officials, missionaries, and his construction of Hinduism. I am less concerned about the state of his knowledge of Sanskrit literature, though I would appreciate any assessments from Sanskritist colleagues in this regard. As a historian of religions I am particularly interested in the moment of cultural contact that occurred between 1793 and 1830. Wilson is a significant player durig the latter part of this period and beyond. Recommendations as to sources, archives, family history, and his career with the East India Company Library, Oxford University, and the Royal Asiatic Society would be much appreciated. Paul B. Courtright Department of Religion Emory University Atlanta, Georgia 30322, USA Fax: 1-404-727-7597 From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Sat Jun 24 08:45:51 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 95 02:45:51 -0600 Subject: Milarepa Message-ID: <161227019801.23782.8273358573842189589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 'm sorry Peter. I don't know anything about editions of the Garma C.C. Chang Milarepa. It is plentiful in libraries and used bookstores. But I think you're right. It's plumb out of print. RObin > I saw your message about Milarepa, and wondered if you knew if "The >Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa, Volume One" was available anywhere outside >of the US (it's no longer in print here). > > Thanks > > Peter Nicholas (pnicholas at worldbank.org) > > > From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 25 14:14:04 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 95 07:14:04 -0700 Subject: Winter solstice festivals in India Message-ID: <161227019803.23782.10593877674053401175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall be thankful for info. [or references to literary/epigraphical sources] on the socio-economic significance attached to winter solstice festivals in India; in particular, the ancient economic practices related to the sharing of winter crops on the auspicious day of the sankrAnti (or apparent celestial shift of the sun from the zodiacal sign of cancer to capricorn). E.g., bhogi in South India, roHRi in Punjab, bhogya in Assam. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at ix.netcom.com From WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jun 25 17:39:05 1995 From: WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 95 13:39:05 -0400 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019805.23782.16564616452646975551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This makes for an interesting discussion topic --- without flaming. In my opinion the answer to most of A. Thrasher's questions put must be affirmative. To put it in a few theses: 1. There are only a handful of critical editions of Sanskrit texts - in the strict sense, that is with STEMMA of the MSS. (Mbh., Ram., Koelver's Rajatarangini work, Lariviere's Narada etc.) 2. All other "critical" editions -- including most of the often excellent editions made in the 19th cent. -- are only *attempts* at critical editions, based on the rather limited MSS materials available then, and with occasional notes on their interrelation. MSS variants are recorded well -- though not always consistently and while leaving out many of the important (regional) peculiarities of spelling (see below). <> 3. The bulk of the editions do not even mention variant readings of their not/badly reported MSS sources, or if they do so, they do so rather inconsistently. Take any Anandasrama edition, for example. Thus, the reader never knows what he/she is dealing with in a particular instance. 4. The rest reflects the "commercial" editions A. Thrasher asked about: editions made by someone (not always mentioned by name) on the basis of unreported MS(S) in a manner to be "deciphered" by the user after long exposure. Such editions (e.g. Nirnayayasagara eds.) do not have more value than any MS (which also shows the hand of the scribe/reader in its many corrections or "improvements" of the text). Thus, in addition to case (1), ALL others are useful for a critical edition but have to be treated with caution -- namely, as what they represent. Cases (3) and (4) can/often do represent a local tradition and are valuable as such: one should treat such editions on the same level as a MS: they reflect nothing more than the more or less educated guess at a "correct" text --- producing many a lectio facilior. We should be practical: If we cannot get MSS from a certain area -- and we know the difficulties involved -- or if we have access to a few ones only for the text under study, we should by all means use a local edition (especially those in local scripts!) or a type 3/4 edition as additional evidence -- but at MS level value. *** As far as I am aware, this kind of question is rarely raised even among "professional" indologists (otherwise we would have critical editions of Sankara, all works of Kalidasa etc. etc. by now! ). Actually, I regard this neglect as nothing but scandalous. How can one make valid statements on advaita if one does not even has come *close* to the text Sankara may have written? (The same applies, a fortiori, to Vedic editions made without using oral tradition. A recitation of the Rgveda is, after all, a *tape recording* of c. 1000 B.C. and as such better than any MS). Of course, the only way to achieve such an edition is long -- tedious many would say -- but unfortunately it is the only one we have, short of direct inspiration by the ancient Rsis or authors. It involves not only burning the midnight oil for a very long time when trying to figure out the stemma, but it also involves the critical use of palaeography (where is one for *MSS* of this millenium??) and of the knowledge of local pronunciation (again, not collected anywhere!) and local orthography influenced by it... In short, I think most students and professors are ill prepared even to begin REALLY critical editions -- should they indeed be interested in doing such work (which often is called the death-knell for a prospective PhD student in North America, also in my University.) Still, we have to train a whole new generation of students to *begin* a task that has long been achieved in Classical Greek, Latin, Celtic etc. studies. The last sections may seem to be somewhat off the topic raised by A. Thrasher -- but I think INDOLOGY is the perfect forum to discuss both questions in some detail. After all, texts are a large part, if not the largest, of the materials we are dealing with on a daily basis and we should be sure of WHAT we are dealing with. Michael Witzel Chair, Comm. on S. Asian Studies Harvard University 53 Church Street Cambridge MA 02138 617- 495 3295 fax -496 8571 On June 16, A. Thrasher wrote: > > Re: Usefulness of commercial or non-critical editions of South > Asia texts > > How useful are commercial, non-critical, or minimally critical > editions to constituting a critical text? Have you used them in > your work? Is it desirable to examine every edition? Are they > useful attestations of regional textual traditions? Do other > scholars in their sentiments and practice agree with your > responses? Are there other questions that should be raised about > this matter? From GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de Mon Jun 26 09:51:55 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:51:55 +0000 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS.+CRIT.EDS Message-ID: <161227019807.23782.4709758662664858434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M. Witzel's contribution highlights a few "critical" aspects of editions: 1. What makes an edition CRITICAL? If a stemma of the MSS used is the decisive criterion, then 200 years of indology have not produced very much deserving that name. Contrary to Witzel's opinion, the critical editions of Mahabharata and Ramayana have to be dropped from the list (while others, as e.g. Wilhelm Rau's Vakyapadiya, may be added). What is usually taken in the BORI and Gaekwad editions resp. do be a stemma of MSS is in fact a "pedigree of VERSIONS". [As to the term "version" and its implications I may refer to my article "Zur Klassifizierung von Mahabharata- Handschriften" in "Studien zur Indologie und Buddhis- muskunde : Festgabe des Seminars fuer Indologie und Buddhismuskunde fuer Prof. Dr. Heinz Bechert". Bonn 1993 (Indica et Tibetica ; 22)] But why should a stemma be the decisive criterion after all. This is a concept taken over from classical philology, and in my opinion, it still stands to reason whether it can really be applied to Sanskrit texts, except perhaps in a few cases with a very limited and rather "hermetic" manuscript tradition, like perhaps the Rajatarangini. By the way, B. Koelver did not publish a critical edition of the Raja- tarangini, but rather a study of its manuscript tradition with a lot of free advice for future editors. The actual work of editing the text is still waiting to be done by someone undeterred by the sound of the death-knell. My own modest attempts in the field have taught me that the relation even of a limited number of MSS, even from a limited geographical area - like e.g. Nepal, is very difficult to determine with any degree of certainty. Consequently, it takes a fair amount of simplification to press the often delicate interrelations into a stemma. It may be asked what we can expect from such a stemma. 2. Personally, I very much appreciate any "attempt" at a critical edition. In all probability, it is a step foreward, especially if the text in question has not been edited before. I don't see any fault in limiting your "manuscript materials", as long as you do not leave the choice entirely to external circumstances. In view of the limitations of human life, not to mention the necessities and absurdities of its academic derivate, choices have to be made. Even if the result is not the type of DEFINITE edition some of us may expect to achieve - Sukthankar, by the way, didn't! - it will help, if only in re-examining the MSS used, should that turn out to be necessary, and perhaps in preparing a better edition on that basis. Textual criticism is indeed a long and sometimes tedious process. But what can be more important for our discipline than injecting fresh material? 3./4. The same applies to the other types of editions, although with considerable qualifications, as already pointed out by M. Witzel. His appeal to overcome the "scandalous neglect" of textual criticism has my whole-hearted support. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Jun 26 15:08:52 1995 From: rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu (rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:08:52 -0500 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS.+CRIT.EDS Message-ID: <161227019816.23782.3319841937576898989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That this discussion is taking place at all on Indology is cause for rejoicing. There is a fundamental concern underlying this discussion that needs to be repeatedly highlighted--what we know about ancient India is largely derived from the testimony of its textual tradition. Admittedly, this testimony is fraught with problems--the biases and distortions of the authors' world views, the conscientious concern to present ideas as timeless and anonymous outgrowths of the Vedic tradition, etc.--but what is most important is that we have the most complete and reliable testimony possible. "Critical" editions are valuable because they attempt to do just this. They preserve and present to the scholarly world the most comprehensive testimony that can be extracted from the surviving textual tradition. Editors will always make mistakes, but if they do their job well, they will have preserved for us the very evidence we use to cast doubt on their judgement--the variants found in the manuscripts. Witzel knows this as well as anyone, and when he refers to the presence of a stemma codicum, this is merely a concise way to refer to the entire complex of preserving, presenting, and synthesizing the data found in manuscript collation. We need not despair that Indian textual traditions seldom present us with a clean and clear stemma. This is an important part of the larger history of a text and its transmission, but a part which can only be discovered through the tedious and exhausting work of collation. ************************************************************************* Richard W. Larivere residence: Ralph B. Thomas Regents Professor 3415 Cactus Wren Department of Asian Studies Austin, Texas 78746-6636 WCH 4.132 University of Texas phone 512-327-2746 or 413-3459 Austin, Texas 78712 fax 512-329-8207 or 327-1284 USA phone 512-475-6039 fax 512-471-4469 ************************************************************************** From magier at columbia.edu Mon Jun 26 14:47:10 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:47:10 -0400 Subject: Rachel Fell-McDermott's address Message-ID: <161227019814.23782.10514133273222764673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anybody know the e-mail adress and/or postal adress of Rachel > Fell-McDermott? Prof. McDermott's online entry in The International Directory of South Asia Scholars contains the following info (besides a description of her research and teaching interests): ____________________________________________ | Rachel Fell McDermott | | Assistant Professor | | Dept. of Asian & Middle Eastern Cultures | | 321 Milbank Hall | | Barnard College | | 3009 Broadway | | New York, NY 10027 USA | | | | phone: 212-854-5416 | | email: rmcdermott at barnard.columbia.edu | -------------------------------------------- David Magier From biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Mon Jun 26 16:29:41 1995 From: biernack at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:29:41 -0400 Subject: Tulsidas Message-ID: <161227019818.23782.9112007428558896625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone give me an exact reference to Tulsidas's statement that dogs, drums and women are to be beaten? Thanks Loriliai Biernacki Univ. of Pennsylvania From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Mon Jun 26 13:33:44 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:33:44 +0100 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS.+CRIT.EDS Message-ID: <161227019809.23782.204656447476894087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Gruenendahl has---very rightly in my opinion---pointed out that `giving a stemma' is at best a dubious criterium for what constitutes a `critical edition.' With regard to the problem of contamination, a phenomenon rendering the reconstruction of manuscript relationships (and hence the construction of a stemma) a difficult or impossible task, one might refer to S.A. Srinivasan's dissertation: Vaacaspatimi"sras Tattvakaumudii. Ein Beitrag zur Textkritik bei kontaminierter Ueberlieferung. Hamburg 1967. Alt- und Neu-Indische Studien 12. It should perhaps also be remarked that coincidental convergence can give rise to similar problems as contamination/conflation; it is my belief that this phenomenon too is of regular occurrence in the transmission of many Indian texts. Its importance has been recognized by some scholars working with European medieval texts---I may refer in the first place to Kane and Donaldson's introduction to their edition of the B-text of Piers Plowman (London 1975), a piece of work which has, as I understand, been of almost revolutionary importance for editors of medieval texts (though not all, of course, are convinced by the proposals of Kane and Donaldson). One more point: Witzel suggests (and others have I think expressed the same opinion in print) that non-critical `type 3/4' editions should be treated as MSS. It should however be remembered that there is at least this difference: the `printer's devil' may cause errors in editions which are virtually random, or at least much more nearly random than scribal errors in MSS are. Scribal errors in MSS are seldom completely valueless; they may reveal (or confirm) something about the nature of an ancestor and its palaeography, or they may suggest an emendation to the editor, on the basis of his knowledge of common confusions between ak.saras. Printing mistakes are sometimes equally based on confusion between similar ak.saras, but we all must have encountered many printing mistakes of a kind which are very unlikely to occur in manuscripts. Much more could doubtless be said; perhaps some of the more experienced editors subscribed to this list could let us know what opinions they have formed in the course of their work. Harunaga Isaacson isaacson at let.rug.nl From rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Mon Jun 26 12:39:04 1995 From: rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:39:04 +0200 Subject: Prof. Brough's address Message-ID: <161227019811.23782.12264620980183594715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear co-netters! Does anybody of you know the e-mail address of Prof. Brough? (Or if there is none, his snail-mail address)? Thank you very much! Miroslav Rozehnal, Institu of Indology, Charles University Prague rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Mon Jun 26 15:19:15 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:19:15 +0100 Subject: Rachel Fell-McDermott's address Message-ID: <161227019813.23782.7983260422809693786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear co-netters! Does anybody know the e-mail adress and/or postal adress of Rachel Fell-McDermott? Thanking you in advance, Axel M. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Jun 27 01:13:39 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 18:13:39 -0700 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019822.23782.2630809081494704719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel writes - > As far as I am aware, this kind of question is rarely raised even > among "professional" indologists (otherwise we would have critical > editions of Sankara, all works of Kalidasa etc. etc. by now! ). > Actually, I regard this neglect as nothing but scandalous. How can > one make valid statements on advaita if one does not even has come > *close* to the text Sankara may have written? (The same applies, a > fortiori, to Vedic editions made without using oral tradition. A > recitation of the Rgveda is, after all, a *tape recording* of c. > 1000 B.C. and as such better than any MS). I think Prof. Witzel has brought up important points, but on the issue of Sankara and advaita, I would like to make a few comments. I have only an amateur's knowledge of Sankara's works, but I am not aware that there is even a need for a "critical" text, in the first place. There may be doubt whether a given text, say VivekachUDAmaNi. is indeed Sankara's, but it is my impression that traditional advaita scholarship in India has preserved Sankara's undisputed works with remarkable fidelity. The same can be said even of the so-called prakaraNa granthas, of which his authorhsip is doubted by Western scholarship. The 1910 edition of Sankara's works, published by the Sringeri math, from Vani Vilas Press, Srirangam, is probably as good as a critical edition, barring possible typograhical errors. Interestingly, this edition does not include the bhAshyas on the SvetASvatara and the mANdUkya upanishads, that are attributed to Sankara. Are there disputes in the reading of, say Sankara's BrahmasUtra bhAshya, or his Br. up. bhAshya, which would create a need for a "critical" edition? Are there manuscripts from different regions of India that differ in details? I would also like to emphasize that it is not as if advaita is a relic of the past that can only be studied by reconstructing Sankara's works in a critical edition. It is a living tradition with numerous Sankara mathas functioning as centers of traditional advaita learning. In this case, isn't a text that is followed by authentic advaitin sannyasis more important for saying anything about advaita than anything that could be reconstructed in a critical edition? S. Vidyasankar Chemical Engineering, California Institute of Technology From krisna at cs.wisc.edu Tue Jun 27 04:22:34 1995 From: krisna at cs.wisc.edu (krisna at cs.wisc.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 23:22:34 -0500 Subject: Pointers to Katapayadi formula needed Message-ID: <161227019824.23782.13262018232082346034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anand Venkt Raman writes: : : [ questions about the katapayadi sankhya deleted ] : I too have a question regarding the sankhya. I have come across a sloka which encodes the digits of the the decimal expansion of pi (correct to about 20+ decimal places) based on the katapayadi sankhya. I would like to know the source of the sloka. Those readers with Web access can check out: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~krisna/pi.html [The reason I am giving a Web address is that the page has the sloka in devanagari---which might avoid some of the problems in transliteration] For those without Web access, the sloka approximately transliterates as: gopi bhaagya madhu vrata, srngisho dadhisandhiga | khalajivita khatava, galahata rasandhara || I appreciate a pointer to the source or any other relevant information. Thank you. --Krishna From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Jun 27 16:21:32 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:21:32 -0700 Subject: Pointers to Katapayadi formula needed Message-ID: <161227019833.23782.15245631692959480770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the Katapayadi system, including its use to express pi (referred to by another respondent), see J.F. Fleet's article "The Katapayadi System of Expressing Numbers" in JRAS 1911, pp.788-794. The system is also used to express chronograms in some South Indian inscriptions: for examples, see Epigraphia Indica 3, p.38, ll.40-41; 4, pp.203-4; 34, pp.205-6. -Richard Salomon Univ. of Washington On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Anand Venkt Raman wrote: > Hello, I am in need of references relating to the Katapayadi > formula. Specifically, when and where it was first used and the range > of applications to which it has been put. I already have references > attesting its use in South Indian Musicology. The carnatic melakarta > scale names the 72 major ragas using the katapayadi scheme. > > For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the katapayadi > formula is a name to number transformation scheme based on the > Sanskrit alphabet. In the specific instance I quoted, the raga > mayamalavagowla is called so because the katapayadi operation on > its name (actually the first two syllables) gives 15 since m=5 and > y=1. M is the 15th raga in the melakarta scale, which allows us > to deduce its notes mechanically! > > This scheme was applied in musicology by Venkatamakhi, son of Govinda > Dikshita (17th cent). The first official mention of this formula is > found in his book "Caturtand.i Prakasika". But belief that even > Sankara was named in accordance with the formula such that the number > derived from his name results in his Date of Birth in the Indian > lunar calendar abounds in India. Thus I suspect the formula itself > was known and in widespread use in various other disciplines before > its application in musicology. This is especially so as Venkatamakhi > makes no claims to it and takes its existence for granted in his > book. > > Any pointers in this regard, to books/journals/articles about the > katapayadi scheme will be greatly appreciated. Our library does not > have a good collection of Indian journals and so I am forced to search > electronically in this way. > > Many thanks in advance. > > - & > -- > # The following record is a random selection from Indhist 1.0 > -- > It occurs to me to introduce here the saying of Poros [Puru]; for > when he was led as a captive to Alexander, and was asked how he > wished to be treated: `As a king, O Alexander!' he replied, and when > he was again asked if there was anything else, his reply was: > `Nothing, for in the words "as a King" everything was comprehended.' > > - Plutarch Oration I.11 > > From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Mon Jun 26 22:46:39 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 10:46:39 +1200 Subject: Pointers to Katapayadi formula needed Message-ID: <161227019820.23782.13258172856990295281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am in need of references relating to the Katapayadi formula. Specifically, when and where it was first used and the range of applications to which it has been put. I already have references attesting its use in South Indian Musicology. The carnatic melakarta scale names the 72 major ragas using the katapayadi scheme. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the katapayadi formula is a name to number transformation scheme based on the Sanskrit alphabet. In the specific instance I quoted, the raga mayamalavagowla is called so because the katapayadi operation on its name (actually the first two syllables) gives 15 since m=5 and y=1. M is the 15th raga in the melakarta scale, which allows us to deduce its notes mechanically! This scheme was applied in musicology by Venkatamakhi, son of Govinda Dikshita (17th cent). The first official mention of this formula is found in his book "Caturtand.i Prakasika". But belief that even Sankara was named in accordance with the formula such that the number derived from his name results in his Date of Birth in the Indian lunar calendar abounds in India. Thus I suspect the formula itself was known and in widespread use in various other disciplines before its application in musicology. This is especially so as Venkatamakhi makes no claims to it and takes its existence for granted in his book. Any pointers in this regard, to books/journals/articles about the katapayadi scheme will be greatly appreciated. Our library does not have a good collection of Indian journals and so I am forced to search electronically in this way. Many thanks in advance. - & -- # The following record is a random selection from Indhist 1.0 -- It occurs to me to introduce here the saying of Poros [Puru]; for when he was led as a captive to Alexander, and was asked how he wished to be treated: `As a king, O Alexander!' he replied, and when he was again asked if there was anything else, his reply was: `Nothing, for in the words "as a King" everything was comprehended.' - Plutarch Oration I.11 From srini at engin.umich.edu Tue Jun 27 15:34:50 1995 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 11:34:50 -0400 Subject: Pointers to Katapayadi formula needed Message-ID: <161227019828.23782.32443760442108387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that the kaTapayAdi sankhya dates back to Vararuci's times (?) at least ... Don't have a direct citation to this scheme in Vararuci's works themselves, but in the introduction to the 1938 Adyar Library edition of The Samgraha-cuda-mani of Govinda ; and, the Bahattara-mela- karta of Venkata-kavi / edited by S. Subrahmanya Sastri ; with a critical introduction in English by T.R. Srinivasa Ayyangar. LC# ML 338 .G74 (in our library !!!) Vararuci's name is mentioned by T.R.Srinivasa Ayyangar, and his rule regarding conjunct consonants is given - in such cases, it is the convention to use the second part of the samyukta akShara for the sankhyA purposes. Here is where, there are a few deviations from the rule in the kanakAngi-ratnAngi nomenclature of Govinda e.g. cakravAka, which yields 26, is the name of the 16th melakarta. & This scheme was applied in musicology by Venkatamakhi, son of Govinda & Dikshita (17th cent). The first official mention of this formula is & found in his book "Caturtand.i Prakasika". Neither this formula, nor its use in numbering the meLas, has been given in the caturdaNDi prakAs'ikA proper. Venkatamakhi only postulated a 72 meLa scheme, with his indexing of the 16 svaras as sa, ra, ri, ru, ga, gi, gu, ma, mi, pa, dha, dhi, dhu, na, ni, nu and congratulated himself in a fairly up-beat manner on this achievement ;-) remarking that even the forehead-eyed S'iva can't change this... (na hi phAlalOcanOpi pragalbhate or something like that) Next, he just mentioned the name of 19 meLas (many don't have their prefixes in order to fit in the kaTapayAdi sankhya scheme), and their ordinal position in the 72 meLa scheme, for which the constituent svaras, and not the sankhyA, was the criterion in his scheme. Of these meLas, only "simhArava" is mentioned by him as his own creation. The others were prevalent during his times... In later times, this meLa took the prefix "des'i", in order to occupy the 58th position in the kanakAmbarI-ratnAmbarI nomenclature for the 72 meLas. This nomenclature is given in the anubandha to the caturdaNDi prakAs'ikA, which has been definitely proven to be a later interpolation. -Srini. From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Jun 27 18:44:13 1995 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 11:44:13 -0700 Subject: Prof. Brenda Beck Message-ID: <161227019836.23782.451615539572040747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Brenda Beck's home address is RR 1, Gore's Landing, Ontario K0K 2E0, phone no: 905-342-2140; Fax no: 905-342-3756. Her e-mail address has changed recently. But she can be reached at the above address. I hope this will be helpful. Mandakranta Bose, Department of Religious Studies, UBC. On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, Ganesan wrote: > > June 23, 1995 > > Does any one know Dr. Brenda Beck's e-mail address. Does she use it? > She did anthroplological studies about Kongu region from where I hail from. > She is at Univ. of Toronto now. Thanks, > > Yours > n. ganesan > nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov > > > Some of Brenda Beck's books: > 93-907289: Annanmar Cuvami katai. English and Tamil. Elder brothers > story, an oral epic of Tamil / 1st ed. Madras, India : Institute of > Asian Studies, 1992. 2 v. : ill., map ; 25 cm. > LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.9.A578 A24 1992 > 88-17367: Oral epics in India / Berkeley : University of California > Press, c1989. xi, 290 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. > LC CALL NUMBER: PK2917 .O7 1989 > 86-7112: Folktales of India / Chicago : University of Chicago Press, > 1987. xxxi, 357 p. : ill., map ; 23 cm. > LC CALL NUMBER: GR305 .F65 1987 > The three twins : the telling of a South > Indian folk epic / Bloomington : Indiana University Press, c1982. 248 p. > LC CALL NUMBER: PL4758.2 .B4 1982 > 79-906741: Perspectives on a regional culture : essays about the > Coimbatore Area of South India / New Delhi : Vikas, c1979. xiii, 211 p. > LC CALL NUMBER: DS485.K65 P47 > 72-81828: Beck, Brenda E. F. Peasant society in Konku; a study of right > and left subcastes in South India Vancouver, University of British > Columbia Press [1972] xix, 334 p. 24 cm. > LC CALL NUMBER: HN690.T3 B4 > > > > > > > From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Tue Jun 27 19:00:13 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 12:00:13 -0700 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019838.23782.12353928294024491883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another important point made by Mr. Vidyasankar, implicit though it may have been, is that the subcommentatorial tradition in Advaita Vedanta has in all probability preserved the words of Sankaracarya as best as anyone could have. We are speaking here of philosophical treatises such as his Brahma-sutra and Upanishad bhashyas, of course, and not his stotras and other possibly apocryphal compositions. Since nearly each word of the bhashyas was elucidated in great detail by commentators such as Anandagiri and others within a couple of centuries of Sankara's passing, I would wager that any variations in the text of the Acharya's major works would be philosophically unimportant. The critical edition would shed no new light on Sankara as a thinker or as a writer. This opinion is based on my examination of works of a similar nature, such as van Buitenen's edition of Ramanuja's Vedarthasangraha. The task of putting together such a critical edition would probably serve no use other than as an academic exercise. Of course, Dominik's point is well taken that we do not know for sure unless we do the work. I just don't think the fruits will be worth the effort. Mani From lorenzen at colmex.mx Tue Jun 27 18:35:24 1995 From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 12:35:24 -0600 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019834.23782.1538085621468340646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that S. Vidyasankar did make at least one important point: namely that in the case of living traditions, or even traditions that lived for some time and then died out, the texts that come to be accepted as authentic by the followers of those traditions are at least as important than any reconstruction of the original author's text. Ideally, of course, we need both texts. It does seem to me, however, that academic scholars, particularly continental Europeans, do often place too much emphasis on the "original" text. Another point is that many vernacular, as opposed to Sanskrit, texts present a somewhat different set of problems. Even in cases where the texts were written by a single identifiable person, it is often the case that no two manuscripts give exactly the same reading for ANY single verse. Not just orthography but also grammar and vocabulary tend to be extremely fluid (unlike Sanskrit). To try to construct a "critical edition" in these circumstances in fact means to construct a NEW text different from all others, including that of the original author. In cases where the existence of a single author is more dubious--e.g. the songs attributed to Kabir, Mira, and Sur--the status of critical editions is even more problematic. It still makes sense to create such a new text on the basis of the majority of readings given in the "best" of the oldest manuscripts, but such a text cannot be presumed to be more than SOMEWHAT closer to the text of the original author(s). In the case of texts transmitted mostly orally, it is likely that even the original authors varied the original words from performance to performance. If one adds to this the original point that the texts transmitted by tradition are at least as important as their original versions, then the whole idea of a critical edition begins to look fishy. David N. Lorenzen From rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu Tue Jun 27 21:51:06 1995 From: rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu (rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 16:51:06 -0500 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019839.23782.18031615896754669665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Lorenzen's posting has many important points that must be kept in mind when dealing with the complex textual traditions of India. However his posting also reveals a view of "critical editions" that is both common and the source of much confusion. I refer to the notion that a "critical edition" claims to be THE text. In fact, the value of a critical edition is that it collects in one place the most complete evidence about the transmission of a text that the print media can provide. In addition, we get the opinion of the editor about what the oldest version of a text may have been. Editors always make mistakes. While we should, I think, be grateful to editors for their willingness to share their judgements with us, we should never accept those judgements blindly. Rather we must always weigh those judgements in light of the testimonia preserved in the unpleasant and hard-to-read variants at the bottom of the page. These variants are the real service to scholarship that critical editions preserve for us. Admittedly, for the lazy who do not use these variants or for those scholars whose lingusitic skills do not enable them to use those variants the judgement of an editor can be misleading. But that is not the fault of the editor or of the edition. Prof. Lorenzen's points about oral traditions are well taken. However, while we would be foolish to think that a "critically edited" version of Kabir is THE Kabir because of the constantly evolving nature of this corpus, we would be equally foolish to think that the Mahabharata printed in bold face above the variants is THE Mahabharata. A critical edition always strives to reconstruct the autograph version of the author, but such a thing is seldom possible (especially in India). There may not have been AN author. AN author may have composed numerous quite different versions. Regardless of the origin of a text, its audience may have done any number of creative things with that text over the centuries. The purpose of a critical edition is to preserve in one place the surviving evidence so that we can learn about the history of that text. A text is not critically edited in order to eliminate other voices or to stifle a tradition--rather it is to preserve both to the extent that this can be done in print. ************************************************************************* Richard W. Larivere residence: Ralph B. Thomas Regents Professor 3415 Cactus Wren Department of Asian Studies Austin, Texas 78746-6636 WCH 4.132 University of Texas phone 512-327-2746 or 413-3459 Austin, Texas 78712 fax 512-329-8207 or 327-1284 USA phone 512-475-6039 fax 512-471-4469 ************************************************************************** From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jun 27 16:11:16 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 17:11:16 +0100 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019830.23782.12752055406858783173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Vidyasankar says that printed editions of advaita texts such as those put out by the Mathas are as good as critical editions. How do we know? Well, the whole problem is that we can't know, can we, until we actually collect manuscripts systematically and globally, and read them. *Only* then is someone in a position to make claims about the fidelity of a given text. It would be wonderful indeed if a comparison of the manuscripts of Sankara's works produced no variant readings of any substance. Then the critical edition of the work would be mostly text, and hardly any apparatus. But the fact that all the manuscripts had been weighed and -- where necessary -- read, would indeed make such an apparatus-less edition critical. Going on past experience (I have edited Sanskrit texts from manuscripts), the chances of this happening are vanishingly small. Whenever you look at multiple manuscripts of a Sanskrit work, however venerated and however many times it has been printed, you always find substantial variations. That's just the way it is. Actually, it is a matter of enormous interest to think about these variations, and learn from them. Dominik From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Tue Jun 27 23:27:55 1995 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 19:27:55 -0400 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS & CRITICAL EDS Message-ID: <161227019841.23782.15877609848664999520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As one graduate student among a handful (probably in the entire US) who is undertaking a critical edition as a dissertation topic, I will offer some brief points which may be worthy of continued discussion. I must first quote from Prof. Lariviere?s response because he clearly captures the issue at hand for the entire field of Indology: "What we know about ancient India is largely derived from the testimony of its textual tradition. Admittedly, this testimony is fraught with problems--the biases and distortions of the authors' world views, the conscientious concern to present ideas as timeless and anonymous outgrowths of the Vedic tradition, etc.--but what is most important is that we have the most complete and reliable testimony possible" As has been made clear by Witzel, Lariviere, Callewaert (at a recent lecture at Harvard) and others, thus far in the discussion, it is crucial for the field of Indology as a whole for the younger and new generations of Indologist to take up the task of compiling critical editions of Sanskrit texts. However, this is a task which seems generally, in my opinion, not highly valued in the American Indological setting. My sense, from speaking to some colleagues, also graduate students in other schools, is that one is not encouraged to undertake a critical edition of a text as a dissertation project. I would venture to say that such projects are actually discouraged because they are not marketable. Such projects are considered to be professional suicide in America, pure and simple. One reason for this may be that the 'religious studies' environment where Indologists/Sanskritists will go to in search of employment is not generally receptive to such projects. The process of 'immersion' into the culture (religion, law, social structure, fauna, flora and realia) of a text to be edited seems little appreciated. Editing mss is more than just an exercise in grammatical analysis. Rather, graduate students and faculty members prefer more trendy, cutting edge projects which ask interesting questions of the texts. This repeats a bit of what Prof. Witzel has already made clear: how can we ask the 'cutting edge' questions from our texts if we don't have an accurate text on which to base those questions? This is much like trying to erect a building without a foundation. This is not to deny the importance analysing texts and to ask questions about society, relgion, law, implications of gender, etc. But it seems crucial to have a critical edition which preserves the transmission of the text before we can ask and attempt to answer such questions with any degree of certainty. Everyone seems to be aware of the need for editing texts in our field but few faculty members seem to encourage their students in that direction. Students, rightfully so, are cautious about undertaking such projects for fear of not finding jobs in an already crowded market. There needs to be a change in the general Indological culture of America where the awareness for the need of critical editions is raised. Faculty should encourage such projects and should, in job searches, reward those projects. Once we have the Critical text which preserves the transmission of the text then we can ask the 'interesting questions.' For myself, I have had the encouragement of Prof Witzel on my dissertation topic. However, I am well aware of the consequences of such a project in the present job market. Yet I think it is more important, at this time, to establish the critical text of the Paippalada AV than to ask question of either of Barret's corrupt edition or of Bhattacarya and Raghu Vira's unsatisfactory editions. I can only hope that the scholarly value of such work is recognized and rewarded at some future point On Dr. Gruenendahl's reply, I would like ask the basis he considers the methods of classical philology (i.e. establishing a stemma) to be inapplicable or partly applicable to Sanskrit text? What methods should be used for editing Sanskrit texts? True there is a great deal of difficulty with Sanskrit mss (I am experiencing some of this now) both due to paleographical peculiarities and the influence of local pronunciation on Sanskrit and Vedic recitation. But once these 'problems' are characterized and rules established (Buhler already in the last century noticed the influence of local pronunciation upon Vedic recitation) then lower textual criticism should be perfectly applicable. It is exactly the problems of the influence of local pronunciation and paleography which makes lower textual criticism difficult to apply to Sanskrit text. It's these issues which are at the core of the editing process for Vedic and Sanskrit texts - and for which very few Indologist are being trained to handle. To paraphrase K. Hoffmann: the task of the editor is firstly to give all mss readings and on that basis establish the text. Thus if a reading is common to all mss, we have, at the very least, an old reading, perhaps authentic. It is another question whether we think that such an authentic reading is correct as to grammar or sense. We cannot eliminate authentic readings, even if we know that the original or the correct reading has been preserved in another text. Thus a reading common to all mss must be regarded as authentic and we must face this fact (even if the reading makes little or no sense at all). After a critical text (the archetype) has been established, then comes the more difficult problem of establishing or reconstructing ?the text preceding the archetype? (if that is even possible). We all await critical editions of those texts for which we have not even an attempt at an edition. But it is also important to try to establish critical editions for our most basic texts (RV AV, etc.). For the RV there is no critical edition. Muller only gives a list of the mss used. For Shaunaka there is no stemma (since the edition is based on the Pratishakya texts). ****************************************************************************** I don't want to be burried. Have you ever been to a graveyard? Have you ever read a tombstone, sweetie? Hum? You know, 'so and so fell asleep and was burried.' Fell asleep, sweetie! No, No! No grave for me, darling. I'am a buddhist anyway, I want to be laid down on a rock in the middle of the Ganges, darling, and just be pecked by birds. from TV's 'Absolutely Fabulous' ****************************************************************************** Carlos Lopez Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University ****************************************************************************** From daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 28 03:21:24 1995 From: daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu (Daud R. Ali) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 20:21:24 -0700 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS & CRITICAL EDS Message-ID: <161227019843.23782.1817172565447837408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Producing critical editions is indeed an important task, and many historical and Indological scholarship has unquestionably rested on the foundation of critically edited texts. But Mr. Lopez is correct in observing that the production of critical editions is not a highly favored project in the american academy today. This is only in part, I think, due to the 'religious studies" nature of the job market. If my eyes have not deceived me, once source of the reticence in allied fields concerning the agendas of classical philology is, I think, a now widely established critique of the epistemological foundations of philology, its notions of textuality and language. For this reason a whole host of types of textual study are no longer accepted as importnat ideological work. I remember as an undergraduate coming across a concordance of Ulysses by James Joyce that was published from a dissertation. Such a task I think would be unthinkable now in English lit, not simply because any computer program could make short work of such a task, but because concerns over the "text as such" is no longer a critical language in literature depts. I do not mean to compare establishing a critical edition in a precise manner with "new criticism" as it is called in English lit, but I do believe that there have been shifts in the concerns about texts as a whole which make many departments (especially those concerned with issues that are not precisely philological-- religion, history, south asian studies, etc.) reticent on this issue. To make this sort of scholarship relevant, will require, it seems to me facing up to these well known developments in textual and linguistic theory. Daud Ali From thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp Tue Jun 27 14:55:24 1995 From: thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp (thayashi at doshisha.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 23:55:24 +0900 Subject: Pointers to Katapayadi formula needed Message-ID: <161227019826.23782.12127900056767868015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 5:26 AM 95.6.27 +0100, Krishna Kunchithapadam wrote: >Anand Venkt Raman writes: >: >: [ questions about the katapayadi sankhya deleted ] >: > > >I too have a question regarding the sankhya. I have come across >a sloka which encodes the digits of the the decimal expansion of >pi (correct to about 20+ decimal places) based on the katapayadi >sankhya. > >I would like to know the source of the sloka. Those readers with >Web access can check out: > > http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~krisna/pi.html > >[The reason I am giving a Web address is that the page has the >sloka in devanagari---which might avoid some of the problems in >transliteration] > >For those without Web access, the sloka approximately >transliterates as: > > gopi bhaagya madhu vrata, srngisho dadhisandhiga | > khalajivita khatava, galahata rasandhara || > >I appreciate a pointer to the source or any other relevant >information. Thank you. > >--Krishna > A few comments about the sloka mentioned by Krishna (I cannot find its source). (1) The sloka gives the 32 digits, 3141592653589793238462643386(3?)2792(5?), in the descending order, that is, from the highest (g=3) to the lowest (r=2) decimal places, while the original katapayadi system of numeration would start from the lowest. (2) The system of the sloka seems to be the same as `a variation' mentioned by Datta and Singh (History of Hindu Mathematics, single volume edition, Bombay, etc.: Asia Publishing House 1962, Part 1, p. 72), according to whom it `is knwon as the Kerala System', but no reference is given. (3) Aryabhata II (usually assigned to the 9th to the 11th centuries, but to ca. 1500 according to R. Billard) certainly read numbers in the descending order of places (see his Mahaasiddhaanta), but in his system every consonant has a numerical value (in the original katapayadi system, only the last of a consonants cluster has a numerical value), and therefore `gopibhaagya' would express 31431 instead of 3141. (4) As far as I know, the traditional Indian mathematics did not extend their decimal place-value system to the fractional part of a number (in astronomy they used sexagesimal place-value notation for that purpose, but always with the names of units such as kalaa, vikalaa, liptaa, viliptaa, etc.). So it looks strange to me (from the view point of ganita) that the sloka does not contain the 31st power of ten as a divisor. See, for example, a stanza ascribed to the great mathematician Madhava of Sangamagrama (ca 1400): vibudhanetragajaahihutaazanatriguNavedabhavaaraNabaahavaH / navanikharvamite vRtivistaare paridhimaanam idaM jagadur budhaaH // (cited by Sankara in his comm. on Bhaskara's Lilavati, VVRI edition, p. 377) This says that the circumference of a circle is 2827433388233 (expressed in the so-called bhutasamkhya system) when its diameter is measured by `nine nikharva' (9 times the 11th power of ten). Takao Hayashi Science and Engineering Research Institute, Doshisha University, Kyoto, Japan. From GKIBB at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Wed Jun 28 05:23:03 1995 From: GKIBB at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (GOPAL IYER) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 01:23:03 -0400 Subject: THE CARVAKA MATERIALISTS Message-ID: <161227019845.23782.18193904436604559659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend and I have recently become interested in the Carvakas and their rise, philosophy and suppression (circa 5th century B.C.). >From what we understand, the Carvakas emerged from the similar nastika (atheistic) strains that contributed to the rise of Buddha and Mahavira and that they shared the idea of the dualism of purusha (spirit) and prakriti (substance) similar to the Samkhya school. While we would like to know more about the Carvakas, our efforts to locate sources through our own effort have resulted in shoonya ("zilch", sl.). Would some knowledeable readers provide us with sources and references for understanding more about the Carvakas, their philosophy etc.? Thanks, Gopal Iyer Assistant Professor Baruch College The City University of New York 17 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10017 From garzilli at shore.net Wed Jun 28 12:15:26 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 08:15:26 -0400 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS & CRITICAL EDS Message-ID: <161227019854.23782.6093108255574135939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Daud R. Ali wrote: > > > Producing critical editions is indeed an important task, and many > historical and Indological scholarship has unquestionably rested on the > foundation of critically edited texts. > > But Mr. Lopez is correct in observing that the production of critical > editions is not a highly favored project in the american academy today. > This is only in part, I think, due to the 'religious studies" nature of > the job market. If my eyes have not deceived me, once source of the > reticence in allied fields concerning the agendas of classical philology > is, I think, a now widely established critique of the epistemological > foundations of philology, its notions of textuality and language. > > Daud Ali > Mr. Ali is surely right. But when I came here, I noticed that many scholars simply do not know how to write a critical edition, and do not have the farest idea that something like this can be done. It is easier (and less demonstrable) to meet with some god than to meet with a text in its features, that is, also its spatial and temporal parameters. Language has a history. After at least 5 years of Greek and 6 of Latin in our high schools, 3 years of Philosophy, and some 5 years of history, history of philosophy and philosophy of history (this is the usual training of the largest part of us in Italy) you are used to "place" a text and to cut it in a philological way (philology is not only concordances: this was only one of the first steps, much better done now by computer). I remember that we had to read e.g. the Odyssey in Greek, and to compare many of its passages in different translations, wrote by poets, scholars, writers, in different times and traditions. The whole process involves several years of study. Here my daughter is compelled to study, in her Latin class (IV level) at her high school, the history of Rome in English (and this class is considered very good, they also won several federal and national competitions)! I read several American Indological books with long articulated sophisticated Introductions, and poor contents. I do not mean that in Italy we study "better" than here: I mean that the tradition of studying a text is different. And I think that Carlos Lopez is correct when he says that to study with a philological means (= to study a civilization basing on texts, or to make a global cultural operation on texts) is a suicide here: there is not such a tradition, therefore is not recognised, and it does not "pay" in terms of finding jobs, funds, etc. Also here there are several exceptionally "complete" scholars: unfortunately they have already a position, therefore their position is no longer available! In order to teach in a college or even in many depts./schools in prestigious universities (I am thinking of Harvard now) a scholar does not need to make this historical/philosophical operation on texts, that involves "useless" years of study, teachers trained to use this means, a tradition. And he/she also would risk to have an empty class=not to be successfull: not to have his/her contract renewed. Dott. Enrica Garzilli Harvard University From GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de Wed Jun 28 09:24:18 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.gwdg.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 09:24:18 +0000 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDITIONS ... Message-ID: <161227019847.23782.7171308094328690754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his interesting contribution to the issue of editions, Carlos Lopez gives a fine illustration of what I had referred to earlier as the necessities and absurdities of academic life, and I sincerely hope the unfavourable circumstances he mentions will not discourage him. As to his question: > On Dr. Gruenendahl's reply, I would like ask the basis he considers > the methods of classical philology (i.e. establishing a stemma) to > be inapplicable or partly applicable to Sanskrit text? My remark was not intended to cast doubt on the applicability of the "classical" method in general. There is already enough of unqualified attacks of that nature, especially concerning Purana research. I only referred to the concept of a stemma. As indicated, the stemmata that I have taken a closer look at so far, as well as my own limited experience in the field, give me little reason to believe that something really deserving the name can be achieved in Sanskrit "Textkritik", given the possible exceptions indicated before. [For details I again refer to the article mentioned in my earlier reply.] In many cases, it is simply a question of quantity. The manuscript tradition of many texts referred to in the various contributions to this discussion (Kalidasa, Samkara, Veda, etc.) is so vast that it takes a herculean effort just to sift it. The effort to proceed from there to a classification of the MSS and to a determination of their exact interrelations - in my opinion a prerequisite of any stemma - is hampered by the endless possibilities of "contamination", among other factors. I don't think classical philology has to encounter anything comparable to that. > What methods should be used for editing Sanskrit texts? My undogmatic answer to this: I think, the "classical" method provides a very good orientation, but it should be adapted to the particular circumstances, i.e. to the manuscript material one has to deal with in every individual edition project. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 (P.S. I will not be able to take part in this discussion in July.) From J.Clayton at lancaster.ac.uk Wed Jun 28 09:54:05 1995 From: J.Clayton at lancaster.ac.uk (Prof J Clayton) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:54:05 +0100 Subject: THE CARVAKA MATERIALISTS Message-ID: <161227019848.23782.10205041688152726013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I strongly recommend Eli Franco's book PERCEPTION, KNOWLEDGE AND DISBELIEF: A STUDY OF JAYARAASI'S SCEPTICISM, 2nd ed, Motilal Banarsidass, 1994. The book contains an introduction, analysis, edition, critical notes and translation of the Tattvopaplavasimha, which may be the sole surviving text of the Caarvaaka-Lokaayata school. Professor John Clayton Dept of Religious Studies University of Lancaster Lancaster UK j.clayton at lancaster.ac.uk From rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Wed Jun 28 10:26:58 1995 From: rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 12:26:58 +0200 Subject: Prof. Brough's copyrights Message-ID: <161227019850.23782.17423414542823916338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to all who told me bad news about Prof. Brough's passing away. Does anybody know who is now holder of his copyrights? (Particularly I mean his "The Gaandhaarii Dharmapada"). Thanks a lot. Miroslav Rozehnal, Prague rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From BRDU at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Wed Jun 28 18:01:11 1995 From: BRDU at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (SHARMA,VIBHA,MS) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 14:01:11 -0400 Subject: Conference Announcement Message-ID: <161227019852.23782.1371003455300845820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Conference Announcement The Centre for Cultures, Technologies and the Environment, in collaboration with the Idaho State University announces a 5 day international convergence of artists and scholars on the *AESTHETIC, POLOTICAL and ETHICAL ISSUES IN CROSS-CULTURAL ART*. The convergence will be held at the Centre for Cultures, Technologies and the Environment in Mysore, India. Dates: 14th - 18th February 1996 Format: The conference/convergence is envisged as a multi-disciplinary event and will include, apart from academic presentations, lecture- demonstratiopns by artists, performance-cum-discussions and exhibitions of works of art including video, film, visual arts etc. pertaining to the themes of cross-culturalism. Themes and Issues: Aesthetic Questions: 1. Do symbols from one culture used in a work by an artist from another culture bear any of their original cultural meanings, or are their meanings to be drawn entirely from the re-contextualization? a) If nothing of the original cultural meaning remains in a recontextualizes symbol, does its usage nonetheless pretend to a former meaning, resulting in work that is either shallow (when the pretense is unrecognised as such) or ironic (when the pretense is self-conscious)? b) If the original meaning of a re-contextualised symbol in fact remains, is its usage the aesthetic equivalent of forgery? 2. Does the use in a work of art of elements sub-contracted to an artist from another culture, by introducing a second set of aesthetic sensibilities not explicitly accommodated within a collaboration, destroy the unity and coherence of the work? 3. Can a work by an artist from one culture about the lives or experiences of members of another culture ever be substantially "true"? Political Issues: 1. Do works by a "majority" artist about a "minority" culture within the same country necessarily promote existing dominance patterns? 2. Is work by an artist from a colonialised country, expressed in the visual, verbal, or musical idiom of the colonialising culture, necessarily elitist? Does such work implicitly support colonialisation, even when the work is "subversive"? 3. Do minority artists, working with symbols, idioms or subject matters of majority culture, have a responsibility to address and to resist patterns of political dominance? 4. Are collaborations between so called first and third world artists necessarily one sided, given the superior access to first world artists to audiences and markets? Ethical Issues: 1. Do works by an artist from one culture about the lives or experiences of members of another culture harm members of that other culture by creating, however unintentionally, misleading stereotypes? 2. Is the use by an artist of images, symbols, or idioms taken from anothe culture necessarily a theft of that other culture's heritage? Is such use of images the moral equivalent of stealing actual artifacts? 3. Is the incorporation by an artist into his or her own work the actual work of an artist from another culture necessarily a kind of exploit- ation, even if the work was produced on a contract basis? 4. Is the use of a sacred image of one culture by an artist from another culture essentially a profanation of the image? If so, does the profanation harm the members of the culture to which the image belongs? .. These are just some of the issues and questions that would be raised and debated in the conference. For further details and submission of abstracts, please contact: Ms Vibha Sharma/Mr. Chandrabhanu Pattanayak (Sec. and V. P., CCTE) 4289, Hotel de Ville Montreal, Quebec H2W 2H3 Tel,/Fax: (514) 845-8496 E-mail: brdu at musicb.mcgill.ca OR Dr. Paul Tate Office of Graduate Studies and Research Campus Box 8075 Pocatello, Idaho 83209-8075 Tel: (208) 236-2150 Fax: (208) 236-4529 E-mail: tatepaul at cwis.isu.edu From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Jun 28 21:34:48 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 14:34:48 -0700 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019856.23782.10358956749075635025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a contribution to the interesting and enlightening discussion about critical and non-critical editions that is taking place, I would like to draw the attention of colleagues to my article " An introduction to the study of Bhart.r-hari" published in Asiatische Studien XLVII.1.1993, pp. 36. Two of the more general parts of the article that can easily be quoted here are as follows: Section 5.2: " It is probably an indirect consequence of the loss of importance that Sanskrit studies suffered under the British Raj that the texts of many or most important Sanskrit works first appear in poorly published editions based solely on locally available mss. Another contributing factor to this sorry state could be that a Sanskrit pandit has as little interest in preparing critical editions as a devout Christian has in historical studies of the Bible. Both are primarily interested in content or message, and not in wording or problems of ascription, etc. Anyway, whatever the causes may be, scholars are frequently forced to depend on such editions, and research is misled for several generations to come. " I then give an account of how the studies of Bhart.r-hari, the Grammarian-philosopher, were miseld for about one hundred years because of the absence of critical editions. After pointing out how good textual criticism gives objective and hence reliable clues regarding authorship and geographical dimension of the transmission of a text, I conclude: Section 6.3: "Manuscript work is usually very time-consuming, largely boring, and frequently quite discouraging. But unless the text is presented in a dependable form and is studied well, scholarship progresses no faster than in a three-legged race. I hope I have conveyed to at least some of you a sense of how exciting, like a detective s work, textual criticism can be. There is an Indian folktale in which a king s favorite old minister correctly guesses, merely from a camel s footprints and grazing pattern, a number of things about the animal, right down to (or, perhaps I should say, right up to) the camel s being blind in the left eye. We should do well if we recalled that story. Ashok Aklujkar From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 29 09:06:54 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:06:54 +0100 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019857.23782.5214180510676141556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Lorenzen said: > > ... in the case of living traditions, or even traditions > that lived for some time and then died out, the texts that come to be > accepted as authentic by the followers of those traditions are at least as > important than any reconstruction of the original author's text. > Ideally, of course, we need both texts. Surely this begs the question of what we mean by "importance". If we want to know what the contemporary followers think and do, then of course the contemporary printings of the works they read are important. If we want to know what the founder of the tradition thought and believed, then we come back to the "importance" of critically editing what he wrote. This distinction of "importances" itself raises very interesting questions. In general, I don't like to think of ideas in nationalistic or regional terms, and would therefore disagree with your attribution of special historical interest in critical editing to Europeans. But I have often wondered whether the urge to discover the oldest historical stratum of thought isn't connected at some subliminally deep level with the central idea in Christian culture of a *historical* messiah. It has always been important to Christian theologians and church teachers to point out that Christ came at a particular moment in *real* time, i.e., in *our* time, a timeline we share, that includes our daily life. Therefore, historical research -- at least into Christian culture -- can be seen as becoming coterminus with soteriological progress, or can at least be equated in some way with drawing closer to the source of salvation. If the redeeming figure is not part of "our" history, if she or he inhabits a different, perhaps narrative or mythic timeline, then perhaps strictly historical research would seem to have less to recommend it. Your points, David, about editing fluid, quasi-oral traditions are well taken. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 29 09:16:36 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:16:36 +0100 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019859.23782.6295578144195857640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan says: > Another important point made by Mr. Vidyasankar, implicit > though it may have been, is that the subcommentatorial tradition > in Advaita Vedanta has in all probability preserved the words > of Sankaracarya as best as anyone could have. We are speaking > here of philosophical treatises such as his Brahma-sutra > and Upanishad bhashyas, of course, and not his stotras and > other possibly apocryphal compositions. > > Since nearly each word of the bhashyas was elucidated in > great detail by commentators such as Anandagiri and others > within a couple of centuries of Sankara's passing, I would > wager that any variations in the text of the Acharya's major > works would be philosophically unimportant. The critical > edition would shed no new light on Sankara as a thinker or > as a writer. I wonder how much you would be prepared to wager? I sense the chance to make a small profit here. :-) Two hundred years, Mani, is roughly the lifetime of a manuscript in Indian conditions. Most manuscripts were probably recopied every century or so, which means that after two hundred years you would be looking at the third generation of manuscripts of Sankara's works. Perhaps. All scribes make mistakes. All authors create various versions of their works, although not all versions necessarily get into circulation. Again, there is little point in guessing about these matters. Sit down with some manuscripts of the commentaries, read for a while, and then decide. My experience with reading commentaries of important classical works is that the *scribes themselves* are well aware that they are in receipt of a textual tradition which contains variations. Cakrapanidatta, who commented extensively on the classical medical texts, himself records variant readings as well as variant interpretations. > The task of putting together such a critical > edition would probably serve no use other than as an academic > exercise. Phew! That's all right then. I am an academic, and spend my life in academic exercise, and I can think of few things more profitable for academic progress than critically editing a text. :-) Dominik From srini at engin.umich.edu Thu Jun 29 14:23:40 1995 From: srini at engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:23:40 -0400 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019863.23782.17968878312347315344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik writes: >>In general, I don't like to think of ideas in nationalistic >>or regional terms, and would therefore disagree with your >>attribution of special historical interest in critical >>editing to Europeans. Just out of curiosity, are there examples of Indo/Sino/ Japanese/ attempts, dating from the ancient to medieval times, at critically editing texts relating to various subjects ? In the modern context, say post-1800, and specifically in the Indian case, aren't such attempts by Indians directly due to the inculcation of a specific, linear, historical interest via English/British/"Western-style" education ? The only counter-example in some sense that I can think of is the "critical" editing of various Sangam texts in Tamil (post 1875) by the great scholar U.V.Swaminatha Iyer. Kamil Zvelebil and others have remarked in some detail on this topic, based on the details of UVSIyer's life and background, and the methods used by him in resurrecting these texts... -Srini. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 29 09:27:49 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:27:49 +0100 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDITIONS ... Message-ID: <161227019860.23782.16282865726263659174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R. Gruenendahl says: > > > What methods should be used for editing Sanskrit texts? > > My undogmatic answer to this: I think, the "classical" method provides > a very good orientation, but it should be adapted to the particular > circumstances, i.e. to the manuscript material one has to deal with > in every individual edition project. Yes. This is very much the issue addressed by Martin L. West in his excellent little book "Textual Criticism and Editorial Technique" (Stuttgart: Teubner, 1973), explicitly written to replace Maas's "Textkritik" in order to take account of contamination and other factors that make Maas's "pure" system inapplicable in so many real-world cases. I always tell my students to read West before doing anything with Sanskrit manuscripts. Dominik From lorenzen at colmex.mx Thu Jun 29 17:54:46 1995 From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 11:54:46 -0600 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019866.23782.7231538417767785194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his comments on my own, Richard Lariviere points out that no "'critical' edition claims to be THE text. In fact, the value of a critical edition is that it collects in one place the most complete evidence about the transmission of a text that the print media can provide. In addition, we get the opinion of the editor about what the oldest version of a text may have been." While this is usually the case, I would again insist that the editing of medieval vernacular texts of living (or once living), mostly oral traditions often involves special problems. Take, for instance, any song of Kabir found in the Adi Granth. It may be possible to conclude, on the basis of comparisons, that the Adi Granth version of the song is in some sense "inferior" to, or later than, versions found in other traditions. Which version is more "important"? As Dominik pointed out, it all depends on what we mean by important. My point is that a "critical" edition of such a text need not always aim at reconstructing the OLDEST version. A more interesting goal may be to reconstruct the "best" text at a somewhat later stage of the text's evolution: for instance, the text when it was most popular, or the text as it is most often recited today. Another problem with such texts is that often no two manuscripts give the exactly the same reading for even a single verse. In the absence of any Panini-type rules, which reading is best? That of the oldest manuscript? Not necessarily. That of a majority of manuscripts copied within a certain time span? Maybe, but often no clear majority reading exists. Another possibility, one that I prefer when it is feasible, is to take the reading of one manuscript (not necessarily the oldest) that general gives "good" (mostly defined as "representative") readings and use this as a base text except where most other "good" manuscripts give a common alternative reading. One other point made by several members of the list is that making Ph.D. theses out of critical editions is frowned on, especially in the U.S., and that getting a job with such a Ph.D. is difficult. Maybe so, but I would also warn those who are determined to go ahead anyway, that getting photocopies (or photos) of manuscripts is not always easy to arrange, especially for younger scholars. For those who may be interested, I would like to mention that I have recently published "A Catalog of Manuscripts in the Kabir Chaura Monastery". It is available for about $10.00 U.S. from El Colegio de Mexico/ Departamento de Publicaciones/ Camino al Ajusco 20/ Pedregal de Santa Teresa/ 1074 Mexico, D.F./ Mexico. The monastery library has about 150 manuscripts containing Kabir Panthi and other works, mostly in Hindi, but also a few mostly advaita works in Sanskrit. David Lorenzen El Colegio de Mexico From j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 29 19:46:19 1995 From: j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 13:46:19 -0600 Subject: Teaching Hinduism Message-ID: <161227019862.23782.2776972073827279441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there anyone out there interested in doing some replacement teaching at Middlesex University (UK), for a year starting in September? If you do, or would like to recommend someone else, then please contact Dr. Skorupski in the first instance (0171-323-6248 or 0171-323-6137). Please don't come back to me on this as I shall not be here. Julia >?From D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk 29 95 Jun EDT 14:45:00 Date: 29 Jun 95 14:45:00 EDT From: D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: World Sanskrit Conference Reply-To: D.Wujastyk at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have just received an official announcement of the next world sanskrit conference. Here are extracts: ========================================================================== First announcement: ================= We are pleased to announce that the Xth World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Bangalore, India, from 3 to 9 January 1997. This will be the third World Sanskrit Conference to be held in India (New Delhi, 1972 and Varanasi, 1981) and will commemmorate the Silver Jubilee Year of the International Association for Sanskrit Studies (IASS). Venue ===== The Xth WSC will be held in the Taralabalu Kendra, Bangalore, India. The Kendra has a modern research facility designed to promote Indian cultural education. Bangalore, the capital of Karnataka, is hailed as India's "garden city." The climate during the month of January will be particularly pleasant, making it an ideal time to visit. ... Papers ====== ... draft of the paper (minimum 5 pages) by 15th May 1996 along with a bibliography and a 300-word abstract. Should your paper be accepted, we will print this abstract in the conference catalogue. ... Registration fees ============== ... due before 31 July 1996: a) for those whose emoluments are less than Rs. 15,000/month Rs. 400 b) for those whose emoluments are more than Rs. 15,000/month US$ 100 c) for students and scholars superannuated from service, 50% concession on the above. ... Address for correspondence: Secretariat Xth World Sanskrit Conference TARALABALU KENDRA 3rd Main, 2nd Block, RT Nagar, Bangalore 560 032, INDIA. Tel: +91-80-3430017 +91-80-3332759 Fax: +91-80-3334541 ===================================================================== There is a "response" form which they want you to return, which will make sure that your entry in their database is present and correct. From magier at columbia.edu Thu Jun 29 18:40:44 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 14:40:44 -0400 Subject: Dr. Claus Peter Zoller Message-ID: <161227019868.23782.1143146833922791121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > I am looking for an e-mail or other address for Dr. Claus Peter Zoller, > once of Heidelberg University, and possibly living in India. He wrote 2 > papers in MSS 1988 and 1989 about an Indian language called Bangani, which > has a remarkable Kentum substrate. > > On the same subject, I am also looking for any other information and/or > bibliographical references about this Bangani language. > > Thanks, > > Daniel Baum > The Hebrew University of Jerusalem > Israel > > I don't have Dr. Zoller's email. But the Ethnologe Database has the following entry for a language named NISI (alternate names include Bangni), which I hope will be of help. David Magier NISI (India) Country India Language code DAP Continent Asia Alternate language names DAFLA, DAPHLA, NISSI, NISHI, NISHANG, NYISING, BANGNI, LEL Dialect names AKA LEL Genetic affiliation Sino-Tibetan, Tibeto-Burman, Baric, Mirish, Dafla Geographical region Assam, Darrang, Arunachal Pradesh Population 33,000 (1991 UBS) New Testament printings in press (1991) Printings of whole books of Bible 1957-1978 Remarks Related to Apatani, Adi, Tagen, Yano, Lhopa, possibly Lepcha Total speakers 33,000 From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Thu Jun 29 21:47:07 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 14:47:07 -0700 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS Message-ID: <161227019872.23782.4045063263829587518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In more than one communication on the subject specified above I have seen, explicitly or implicitly, an assumption to the effect that a reading supported by the greatest number of manuscripts carries weight. A more precise and defensible way is to hold that a reading supported by ("good mansuscripts in) the greatest number of versions or recensions carries weight. Once this is realised, the severity of even the problems encountered in the case of fluid texts (such as the Mahaabhaarata, the Puraanas and the compositions of Sants) diminishes considerably. The versions or recensions are usually representative of a good geographical spread. As in the case of languages, forms/readings attested in the widest geographical spread are usually older forms/readings. Dr.Lorenzen's contribution indicates that in the case of some texts it may be rewarding to prepare different critical editions for the different periods (and perhaps even for the different regions) of the prevalence of a text. However, we would not be able to determine whether this is warranted or how exactly we should use the editions coming out of such efforts for larger historicalreconstruction if the costant aim is not to recover the oldest accessible form. Ashok Aklujkar From TCOB at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU Thu Jun 29 19:45:30 1995 From: TCOB at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU (Coburn, Tom) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 15:45:30 -0400 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS. Message-ID: <161227019870.23782.1082246153177958362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I may have missed some contributions to this interesting discussion, but based on what I have seen, two voices seem missing. One is that of V. S. Sukthankar, chief editor of the critical ed of the Mahabharata, whose comments in the Prolegomenon seem apposite: "[The] essential fact in Mahabharata textual criticism [is] that the Mbh is not and never was a fixed rigid text,but is fluctuating epic tradition . . ., not unlike a popular Indian melody. Our objective should consequently not be to arrive at an archetype (which prac- tically never existed), but to represent, view and explain the epic tradition in all its variety, in all its fullness, in all its rami- fications. OURS IS A PROBLEM IN TEXTUAL DYNAMICS, RATHER THAN IN TEXTUAL STATICS. "To put it in other words, the Mahabharata is the whole of the epic tradition: the ENTIRE Critical Apparatus. Its separation into the con- stituted text and the critical notes is only a static representation of a constantly changing epic text--a representation made for the purpose of visualizing, studying and analyzing the panorama of the more grand and less grand thought-movements that have crystallized in the shape of the text, handed down to us in our Mbh manuscripts." The other is Wilfred Cantwell Smith, whose attention to implicit and explicit theological issues in text-critical study converges nicely with Dominik's recent musings along these lines. See his "The Study of the Bible and the Study of Religion" (Jnl. of the American Academy of Religion 39 #2 (June 1971): 131-40) and the working out of the implications of this article in comparative context in What Is Scrip- ture? (Fortress Press, 1993). Tom Coburn St. Lawrence University From rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Jun 29 22:30:57 1995 From: rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu (rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 17:30:57 -0500 Subject: COMMERCIAL EDS. + CRIT. EDS Message-ID: <161227019874.23782.14333049455955566355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Ashok's precisely correct clarifications I would add that the assumption that the readings of the oldest surviving manuscript carry more weight is also not necessarily correct. >In more than one communication on the subject specified above I have seen, >explicitly or implicitly, an assumption to the effect that a reading >supported by the greatest number of manuscripts carries weight. A more >precise and defensible way is to hold that a reading supported by ("good >mansuscripts in) the greatest number of versions or recensions carries >weight. > >Once this is realised, the severity of even the problems encountered in the >case of fluid texts (such as the Mahaabhaarata, the Puraanas and the >compositions of Sants) diminishes considerably. The versions or recensions >are usually representative of a good geographical spread. As in the case of >languages, forms/readings attested in the widest geographical spread are >usually older forms/readings. > >Dr.Lorenzen's contribution indicates that in the case of some texts it may >be rewarding to prepare different critical editions for the different >periods (and perhaps even for the different regions) of the prevalence of a >text. However, we would not be able to determine whether this is warranted >or how exactly we should use the editions coming out of such efforts for >larger historicalreconstruction if the costant aim is not to recover the >oldest accessible form. > >Ashok Aklujkar > > From dmbaum at shani.net Thu Jun 29 19:28:47 1995 From: dmbaum at shani.net (Daniel Baum) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 19:28:47 +0000 Subject: Dr. Claus Peter Zoller Message-ID: <161227019865.23782.17580520053018018434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for an e-mail or other address for Dr. Claus Peter Zoller, once of Heidelberg University, and possibly living in India. He wrote 2 papers in MSS 1988 and 1989 about an Indian language called Bangani, which has a remarkable Kentum substrate. On the same subject, I am also looking for any other information and/or bibliographical references about this Bangani language. Thanks, Daniel Baum The Hebrew University of Jerusalem Israel From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 30 16:59:22 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 09:59:22 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit in Indonesia Message-ID: <161227019878.23782.15269131788859743452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be going to Bali, and possibly also Java, later this summer for what is essentially a vacation trip, but it's hard to get away from Sanskrit. Does anyone have any information on the state of Sanskrit language or studies there? Does anyone know of any scholars or pandits who might be interested in talking to foreign Sanskritists? -Rich Salomon University of Washington P.S. I will be in England for the whole month of July, and probably not on e-mail. Will respond to messages, if any, upon my return in August. From rnkovacs at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 30 20:39:24 1995 From: rnkovacs at ix.netcom.com (rnkovacs at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 13:39:24 -0700 Subject: Hindukush conference Message-ID: <161227019881.23782.7187590760972492797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been trying for several weeks to locate the information about the 3rd Intl conference on Hindukush Cultural Studies to be held in Chitral Aug 26-20. I have the call for papers, but it includes only the coordinators in Pakistan with mailing addresses, not even telephone or FAX numbers. I would like to get the program and perhaps the name of someone in Europe or US who will be attending, as I may want to go. By the way, where is there an academic center specializing in Hindukush historical-cultural studies (apart from geology etc.)? thank you, Dr. Renee Kovacs RnKovacs at ix.netcom.com -- Frank / Renee Kovacs RnKovacs at ixnetcom.com Phone: (415) 574-2028 FAX: (415) 574-1995 From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Jun 30 19:54:21 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 14:54:21 -0500 Subject: Tamil & Japanese Message-ID: <161227019879.23782.15920027503624941985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 30, 1995 Tamil & Japanese ------------------ Here are some random things that come to my mind - the views of an interested outsider for the field of linguitics/humanities. Any additional information will be great, n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov *********************************************************************** The early poems of Japanese literature and Tamil Sangam poetry have several similarities. Especially, the tamil akam poems describing "interior landscape" (See A. K. Ramanujan's aesthetic translations) and Japanese love poems. Sam Hamill 1) Only companion: Japanese poems of love and longing, Shambala/ Random House. 1992 160 p. and 2) Love poems from the Japanese. Shambala, 1994, 129 p. (early Japanese poetry 5-7th century and tamil sangam age, 1st century b.c. to 3 century a.d.) Also, see irAma. kurunAtan, cangkap pATalum jappAniyak kavitaiyum, kalaignan patippakam, Madras, 1986, 112 p. I hear that Shuzo Matsunaga has translated kuRaL into Japanese. Do you have the bibliographic details? I want to buy a copy. Nowadays, lot of tiny poems modelled on Japanese Haiku are being written in Tamil. After all, Tamil is eminently suitable to write poetry with "uLLuRai poruL" and "iRaicci". eg., ce. centil kumAr, nanaiyAta nilA (haikku), ceyyARu, 1990, tamizanpan, cUriyap piRaikaL: jappAniya haikku vaTiva kavitaikaL, narmatA, patippkam. 1985, 83 p. etc., Susumu Ono and A. Shanmugadas (Jaffna), Worldview and rituals among Japanese and Tamils. Tokyo, Japan, 1985, 220 p. Susumu Ono 1) Nihongo Izen (Influence on Japanese from Tamil language) Tokyo: Iwanami Shoten, 1987, 346 p. 2) Nihongo to Tamirugo, 1981 Tokyo (Japanese and Tamil) Shichiro Murayama, Nihongo: Tamirugo Kigensetsu hihan. Tokyo, 1982 (Japanese and tamil: Comparative grammar) Shu Hikosaka along with Dr. John Samuel have founded a research institute in Madras. Several good works are getting published there. Hikosaka is a scholar of Tamil Buddhism. Bodhi Daruma, founder of Zen, (Note the 'u' letter. This is unlike Bodhi Dharma of Sanskrit/Indo Aryan tradition) hailed from Kanchipuram and is popular in Japan. Japanese alphabets are arranged almost like Tamil (tamiz neTungkaNakku). (in the katakana system?) Japanese script is called Kanchi script. ************************************************************************ From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Fri Jun 30 15:38:30 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 15:38:30 +0000 Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Online Conference on Buddhism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227019876.23782.18054307564787222096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------------------------------- JOURNAL OF BUDDHIST ETHICS ----------------------------------------------- GENERAL EDITORS Damien Keown and Charles S. Prebish TECHNICAL EDITOR Wayne Husted EDITORIAL BOARD Masao Abe, George Bond, David Chappell, Lance Cousins, Richard Gombrich, Charles Hallisey, Ian Harris, Peter Harvey, Richard Hayes, Christopher Ives, Leslie Kawamura, Winston King, Reginald Ray, Lambert Schmithausen, Robert Thurman, Paul Williams. CALL FOR PAPERS ONLINE CONFERENCE ON BUDDHISM AND HUMAN RIGHTS 1-14th October 1995 Sponsored by The Journal of Buddhist Ethics The medium of the conference will be email, thus there is no need to be CONTINUOUSLY available between these dates, although it would be desirable to have regular access to a terminal for the duration of the conference. 1) Conference Papers Papers will be published electronically in a special edition of the JBE in advance of the conference. Plain text (ASCII) and hypertext (HTML for the World Wide Web) versions of the papers will be available. It is hoped that the proceedings of the conference will subsequently be published in book form. The subject matter of the papers may be of a social, political, or philosophical nature and deal with contemporary or historical themes in the general field of Buddhism and Human Rights. Papers should be around 5,000 words in length and must be received by August 31st 1995. Please contact the editors if you would like to discuss a proposal for a paper. 2) Conference Panel The function of a panelist is to comment on the papers presented and participate in general discussion about Buddhism and human rights. Panelists may be academics, politicians, representatives of human rights organizations, or individuals (lay or clergy) who have knowledge or experience of human-rights problems and abuses in Buddhist cultures. Please notify the editors if you would like to participate as a panel member. 3) Conference Members The conference will be a public one on the list JBE-L and anyone is welcome to "attend" free of charge. To attend the conference you subscribe to the list, and you may unsubscribe when the conference ends. Comments can be made, and questions put to the authors of the papers and to the panel. All comments from the "floor" will be moderated. Subscriptions can be taken out at any time before the conference from now onwards by sending an email message as follows: To: Listserv at psuvm.psu.edu Subject: ----------------------- SUB JBE-L (Your name here) Example: SUB JBE-L MICHAEL FOX Subscribers to the list will be kept up to date with new developments. SUMMARY OF CURRENTLY ACCEPTED PAPERS Paper Number One AUTHOR David Bubna-Litic School of Management University of Technology Sydney D.Bubna-Litic at uts.edu.au TITLE Buddhist Ethics and Business Strategy Making ABSTRACT This paper will explore the implications of Buddhism (Mahaayaana perspective) to Business practice. Particularly the assumption behind independence vs interdependence or interbeing. The article will focus on how ethical assumptions are made in the genesis of strategy creation in business organisations, that is how businesses make fundamental decisions about their activities. Issues relating to the "process" of strategy formulation (as opposed to the content) will also be explored. Strategic decisions relate to a wide range of Human rights issues, such as, intervention in the political process, the use of sweat-shop labour, abuse of third-world environments, manufacture of materialist values and the marginalisation of spiritual values. Many organizations enter into such practices on the basis that they are serving their shareholder's best interests. This paper will question this assumption by deconstructing monolithic views of a) organisations b) agency and c) assumptions about top management's locus of control. Paper Number Two AUTHOR Soraj Hongladarom Department of Philosophy Faculty of Arts Chulalongkorn University Bangkok 10330, THAILAND soraj at chulkn.chula.ac.th TITLE Buddhism and Human Rights in the Thought of Sulak Sivaraksha and Phra Dhammapidok (Prayudh Prayutto) ABSTRACT Sulak Sivaraksha and Phra Dhammapidok (Prayudh Prayutto) are two leading Buddhist thinkers in Thailand today. Although both are steeped in the Theravaada tradition, their views on the proper role of Buddhism toward the problems of society, including that of human rights, diverge in a significant way. While Sulak favors a kind of socially engaged Buddhism in which the religion is seen as an instrument toward betterment of the society in terms of justice, democracy and respect for human rights, Phra Dhammapidok tends to be more conservative and text oriented, and for him Buddhism seems to be more concerned with the cessation of suffering at the individual level rather than trying to improve society at large. This paper will undertake a critical and comparative investigation of the thoughts of these two thinkers, and will show how both thinkers deal with the problem of the relation between Buddhism and human rights, thus bringing to relief the central problem of the proper role of Buddhism toward its social environment. Paper Number Three AUTHOR Peter D.Junger Professor of Law Case Western Reserve University Law School Cleveland, OH junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu TITLE Why the Buddha Has No Rights ABSTRACT One's rights are better things to cling to than one's wrongs, but the Buddha's teachings are that the cessation of suffering comes only when one stops clinging to things, even rights. "Human rights'' is a rhetorical concept of the Western "Enlightenment'' that is used to justify certain values that once would have been justified by an appeal to Christian authorities and traditions. (There is, though, a question as to exactly what values are subsumed under the term "human rights''.) Many, if not all, of these values--especially those that can be seen as the products of either tolerance or compassion--are also valued by those who follow the Buddha Dharma and its traditions, but they do not need to invoke any concept of rights to do so. On the other hand, there are those, often well intentioned, souls, who demand as "human rights'' such things as freedom from want, or freedom from suffering, that the Dharma teaches are not attainable as rights, but only by right views, right thought. right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. Thus "human rights'' are at best skillful means, that must be transcended before they can be obtained. Paper Number Four AUTHOR Damien Keown Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths d.keown at gold.ac.uk TITLE Are there "Human Rights" in Buddhism? ABSTRACT If Buddhism wishes to address the issues which are of concern to today's global community, it must begin to ask itself new questions alongside the old ones. In the context of human rights an important preliminary question would seem to be whether traditional Buddhism has any understanding of what is meant by "human rights" at all. It may be thought that since the concept of "rights" is the product of an alien cultural tradition it would be inappropriate to speak of rights of any kind - "human" or otherwise - in a Buddhist context. Even if it was felt that these objections were overstated, and that the issue of human rights does have a legitimate place on the Buddhist agenda, there would still remain the separate and no less difficult question of how human rights were to be grounded in Buddhist doctrine, particularly in the light of the fact that the tradition itself provides little precedent or guidance in this area. This paper offers a preliminary exploration of the above questions. It concludes that it is legitimate to speak of both "rights" and "human rights" in Buddhism, and proposes a ground for human rights in Buddhist doctrine. Paper Number Five AUTHOR John Powers, Australian National University TITLE Human Rights and Cultural Values: The Political Philosophies of the Dalai Lama and the People's Republic of China. ABSTRACT The primary focus of this paper will be the philosophical disagreement between the Dalai Lama and the government of the People's Republic of China on the issue of the universality of human rights. The Chinese authorities contend that the notion of 'human rights' is a creation of Western governments and an instrument by which they attempt to foist their culture-specific values on other countries. Deng Xiaoping has stated that a government's primary duty is to provide food and other basic necessities for its people and that Western ideas of 'human rights' are inappropriate in an Asian context. This notion has also been endorsed by Western political leaders, including President Bill Clinton, but the paper will contend that the moral philosophies of Buddhism and Confucianism - the two most historically important pan-Asian systems of moral philosophy - provide significant grounds for conclusions similar to those outlined in the United Nations' 'Universal Declaration of Human Rights.' The Dalai Lama, one of the most prominent contemporary Asian religious figures, contends that the Universal Declaration outlines universal principles applicable to all cultures, Asian and Western. My paper will examine the document in the light of the competing claims of both sides, and will discuss how their respective positions reflect their philosophical and religious assumptions and political statuses. The key question will be the issue of whether or not these 'universal principles' are in fact universal or only culture-specific. Enquiries about the conference, panels, and papers should be sent to jbe-ed at psu.edu NOTE: If you have already notified us of your interest there is no need to do so again. The Editors Journal of Buddhist Ethics