From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 1 12:19:28 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 07:19:28 -0500 Subject: indexes of periodicals Message-ID: <161227018350.23782.12713586670767918307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raffaele Torella suggested that it would be valuable to have a gopher accessible set of indexes of the contents of Indological Journals. I definitely agree that this would be a valuable resource. Let me mention some existing resources that might partially fill this need: a) The annual print publication, The Bibliography of Asian Studies is an excellent source of indexing and has very strong South Asian content. It's main drawback has been the long delays in publication. Right now it seems to be getting closer to being completely up to date (issues for 1987 and 1988 came out recently), but the actual catch-up may still be years away. Meanwhile, under a hefty grant from the NEH, they are in the final stages of producing a cumulative edition on CD-ROM which would cover approx. 20 years of data in a user-friendly searchable form. My understanding from the publishers (The Association for Asian Studies) is that this product will come out probably during 1995 (with annual cumulated updates thereafter), and will be inexpensive and marketed for individual scholars. b) The other major listserv that provides good scholarly info on India (and all of South Asia), mostly on history but with good participation from many other disciplines of interest to Indologists, is called H-ASIA. The South Asia editor of H-ASIA is Prof. Frank Conlan (historian from University of Washington, conlan at u.washington.edu). He has announced that H-ASIA will begin posting tables of contents of issues of a number of South Asian journals (presumably including at least some of great interest to Indologists), and that the number of journals covered in this informal fashion will depend upon the members of the listserv who volunteer to contribute. This service is not an index, of course, but as the compiler of The South Asia Gopher, which contains many bibliographical resources and indexes of South Asia material, I have volunteered to archive all the H-ASIA table-of-contents postings on the SAG and to make that archive into a keyword index. I believe this proposal is being considered by the H-ASIA membership. To subscribe to the H-ASIA listserv, send this email message via INTERNET to LISTSERV at uicvm.uic.edu: SUB H-ASIA firstname surname school Example: SUB H-ASIA Chris Smith Marshall Univ. c) A large number of South Asian journals are included in the database of the CARL UNCOVER bibliographical index. This service, available free online, uses scanning to input tables of contents from something like 30,000 journals on all topics from all over the world. Users can connect to this service and conduct keyword searches to locate entries for particular articles, and it is even possible to purchase a full-text copy of many articles by entering a credit card number and having the article delivered to you by FAX. UNCOVER can be accessed by connecting by telnet to pac.carl.org, and select the service called PAC. d) The South Asia Gopher contains a wide variety of bibliographic tools and indexes to South Asian information. To connect to the SAG, simply gopher to: ; and then navigate down through the menus as follows (Be sure to use port 71): CLIO Plus/SELECTED TOPICS/South Asia. If you have gopher client software, use the following pointer ('bookmark'): Type=1 Name=The South Asia Gopher Host=gopher.cc.columbia.edu Port=71 Path=1/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia ---------OR, YOU MAY USE TELNET: Simply telnet to: . Once connected to Columbianet, select the menu item marked "CLIO Plus." Within that menu, you'll find an item on the list labelled "SELECTED TOPICS: Internet Resources By Subject" Select that one, and within it you'll find the South Asia Gopher! ---------OR YOU MAY USE THE WORLD WIDE WEB: If you use MOSAIC or Lynx or other web-browser, use this URL: gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia QUESTIONS, PROBLEMS or SUGGESTIONS? please contact David Magier magier at columbia.edu From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Feb 1 15:44:03 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:44:03 -0600 Subject: indexes of periodicals Message-ID: <161227018352.23782.5427721489182769776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner offered to index IBK (Indogaku Bukkyogaku Kenkyu). I think it would be easier for me to do that. I am responsible for preparing the English titles list for the IBK, so I already have the data for each issue -- even before publication. I would need to obtain the permission of the folks in Tokyo to post it to the list, but once that is obtained I do not see any reason that I could not post it. Assuming that they give their OK, two questions: 1) Is there interest in a bit of catch up -- the past few years of IBK, for example? 2) Should I edit the lists such that only the articles relevant to indological subjects appear? Much of each issue deals with Chinese or Japanese Buddhism, etc. I doubt these would be of interest to most readers of this list. -- By the way, since I deal with a prepublication stage of this data, I regret to say that I cannot supply page numbers easily. To do so would mean waiting until I have the actual published journal in hand, and since they only mail the journals abroad once a year, although they appear twice a year, one would have to wait quite a time. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 1 15:47:34 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 10:47:34 -0500 Subject: H-ASIA Message-ID: <161227018354.23782.17898341508234178072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regretably, my earlier posting to INDOLOGY contained a typo in the information about the H-ASIA listserv. The editor for the South Asia information is Prof. Frank Conlon (conlon at u.washington.edu). I apologize for any confusion or inconvenience. David Magier From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Feb 1 17:13:34 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 11:13:34 -0600 Subject: Taking proper care when in search of data Message-ID: <161227018356.23782.10115727286549746426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Magier recently gave some very useful and important tips on reference searching, including information on CARL UNCOVER. In that context he mentioned the possibility of ordering "full-text copy of many articles by entering a credit card number ..." It is perhaps not altogether unnecessary to mention here, for the benefit of everyone, that it is EXTREMELY UNWISE to enter confidential data such as one's credit card number on any form of electronic system, such as the internet. There is no way to control access to this information, and the possible results are not happy to contemplate. We should all beware. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Feb 1 16:27:02 1995 From: janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu (janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 11:27:02 -0500 Subject: Less Commonly taught languages GOPHER Message-ID: <161227018358.23782.10179233372846242003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LESS COMMONLY TAUGHT LANGUAGE GOPHER ================================================================ A new gopher has been established that you or your colleagues might be interested in. Its aim is to present informatin on where where all Less Commonly Taught Languages (all except English, French, German, and Spanish) are taught at North American 2 and 4 year colleges, and universities. Included is information on contact people at each institution (addresses, phone and fax numbers). At present we have about 250 languages (from Afrikaans to Zulu, with entries for Cherokee, Evenki, Lao, Early Welsh, Middle Turkic, Japanese, and Old Norse, to name a few). We ask your cooperation in finding and bringing to our attention mistakes and gaps in our coverage. We continually update the information in the gopher. In the future, we will expand to include community education, and list details of LCTL offerings at the secondary and elementary levels. Please send information if know of any resources we do not list. The Less Commonly Taught Languages Project is part of the Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition at the University of Minnesota. We are a National Language Resource Center, funded through the Center for International Education, U.S. Department of Education. The gopher is available at URL gopher://lctl.acad.umn.edu or by following the path described below: +--> University of Minnesota | +--> All the University of Minnesota Gopher Servers | +--> Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition ================================================================== Louis Janus Less Commonly Taught Languages Project Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition University of Minnesota UTEC--1313 5th Street SE, Suite 111 Minneapolis, MN 55414 612/627-1872 (voice) 612/627-1875 (fax) ------------------------------- janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu or LCTL at maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------- From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 1 21:00:55 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 16:00:55 -0500 Subject: indexes of periodicals Message-ID: <161227018360.23782.55808476966654213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If no other interest is expressed, I, at least, would be interested in receiving both current AND back-issue lists of articles relevant to Indological subjects appearing in IBK (Indogaku Bukkyogaku Kenkyu), as Jonathan Silk offered to provide. I would combine these with any other similar lists I receive (e.g. ones to be posted to H-ASIA or elsewhere), and create an archive of such lists, making it keyword-searchable and freely accessible over the internet via The South Asia Gopher. David Magier From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 1 21:40:16 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 16:40:16 -0500 Subject: Taking proper care when in search of data Message-ID: <161227018362.23782.5888719909606554067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It is perhaps not altogether > unnecessary to mention here, for the benefit of everyone, that it is > EXTREMELY UNWISE to enter confidential data such as one's credit card > number on any form of electronic system, such as the internet. There is > no way to control access to this information, and the possible results are > not happy to contemplate. We should all beware. I agree with Jonathan's note of caution, though I would mention that at this point in time many large corporations are already conducting literally millions of dollars in sales business on the internet in exactly this fashion, with, apparently, some degree of transaction security built in to their operations. I've personally done at least half of my Christmas gift shopping at various internet malls and shops (on the retail side), and the UNCOVER system is used as a commercial document delivery service by hundreds of libraries around the US, each of which has its patrons enter their credit card numbers to purchase full text copies of articles. I certainly don't want to be any sort of advertisement for UNCOVER, and I have always been cautious and skeptical of things like this. But I do note the large numbers of businesses (who must take care of security because they have so much more to lose) operating on the net on the one hand, and customers already using it this way on the other. David Magier Original-Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for indology at liverpool.ac.uk Wed, 1 Feb 95 17:01:54 CST PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Received: (selindqu at localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) id RAA27602 for indology at liverpool.ac.uk; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:01:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 17:01:35 CST From: steven edward lindquist To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Taking proper care when in search of data... Message-Id: Both David and Jonathon have brought up the issue of security concerns and the Internet. While not related to Indology, I would like to clarify some of these issues for the benefit of the group. Having worked in computers and dealt with security concerns, I should tell you that *no* email is secure unless one bothers to encrypt it before sending it (which requires the person on the other end to be able to translate it). Now, this is next to impossible (and extremely time-consuming) for someone to do. If you are purchasing via the Internet, do not send sensitive information via email. Companies (who know what they are doing) carry out sensitive transactions with either (a) encrypted mail or (b) have something like a WWW site setup the encrypts the information entered. Entering info, in say a WWW site dialogue box, is somewhat more secure though it should be noted that a network specialist, if that person had evil intentions, could be watching you do it. Companies also have various other security precautions, which most Universities do not. The rule of thumb about email is to treat it like it was post-card. What you write, accept the fact that someone may see it. While "hacking" sensitive information from email is not *extrememly* difficult, it is also not very common at all. I don't want to make you paranoid, just to make you aware. I tend to send just about anything via email, except those things which could cause financial problems. Think of it like your social security number... people could find out a lot of personal information from it, but what is the likelihood? -s --------- Steven E. Lindquist Dept. of South Asian Lang. & Civ. University of Chicago selindqu at midway.uchicago.edu --------- From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Wed Feb 1 19:30:59 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 19:30:59 +0000 Subject: indexes of periodicals Message-ID: <161227018348.23782.15578198262929584725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I could regularly post indexes of Japanese journals (such as JIBS/IBK), if that is of interest, although I have yet to find the way through the Japanese publication jungle myself. As far as my experience goes, Japanese articles can indeedbe useful even for non-Japanese speakers (neat paryuda at sa, isn't it?), as they usually give a lot of references to other material. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Thu Feb 2 01:49:22 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 19:49:22 -0600 Subject: indexes of periodicals Message-ID: <161227018363.23782.16371426149142217598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will go ahead and check with those responsible for IBK, and attempt to obtain their permission to circulate the data lists of contents. (I think I have 4 or so years of tables of contents on disc.) Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Feb 2 14:00:05 1995 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff *NOT AUTHENTICATED*) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 09:00:05 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227018365.23782.9150489919304861196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Chris. I wonder if you can help me find mac shareware for Sanskrit. I am >a doc student in SFO CA in East/West philosophy and religion at CIIS. Thank >you. Namaste. >J Purfield >1761 Page >San Francisco CA94117USA I haven't a clue as I'm not an Indologist but I'm copying this to the list as there is doubtless someone on Indology who knows the answer. -------------------------------------- Chris Wooff (C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk) Sent from home with ECSMail V3 Beta 7 From magier at columbia.edu Thu Feb 2 15:05:50 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 10:05:50 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227018371.23782.18252126495076997189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [repost] > Dear Chris. I wonder if you can help me find mac shareware for > Sanskrit. An annotated list of South Asian language computer fonts (including many for Sanskrit for the Mac) can be found within the South Asia Gopher (instructions below), in the following path: South Asia Gopher Teaching Resources on South Asia Inventory of Language Materials South Asian Language Computer Fonts ---- To connect to the South Asia Gopher, you may use any of three techniques: gopher, telnet, or WorldWideWeb: Simply gopher to: ; and then navigate down through the menus as follows (Be sure to use port 71): CLIO Plus/SELECTED TOPICS/South Asia. If you have gopher client software, use the following pointer ('bookmark'): Type=1 Name=The South Asia Gopher Host=gopher.cc.columbia.edu Port=71 Path=1/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia ---------> OR BY TELNET: Simply telnet to: . Once connected to Columbianet, select the menu item marked "CLIO Plus." Within that menu, you'll find an item on the list labelled "SELECTED TOPICS: Internet Resources By Subject" Select that one, and within it you'll find the South Asia Gopher! ---------> OR BY WORLD WIDE WEB: If you use MOSAIC or Lynx or other web-browser, use this URL: gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia QUESTIONS, PROBLEMS or SUGGESTIONS? please contact David Magier magier at columbia.edu From magier at columbia.edu Thu Feb 2 15:05:50 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 10:05:50 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227018368.23782.8175228139912425349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Chris. I wonder if you can help me find mac shareware for > Sanskrit. An annotated list of South Asian language computer fonts (including many for Sanskrit for the Mac) can be found within the South Asia Gopher (instructions below), in the following path: South Asia Gopher Teaching Resources on South Asia Inventory of Language Materials South Asian Language Computer Fonts ---- To connect to the South Asia Gopher, you may use any of three techniques: gopher, telnet, or WorldWideWeb: Simply gopher to: ; and then navigate down through the menus as follows (Be sure to use port 71): CLIO Plus/SELECTED TOPICS/South Asia. If you have gopher client software, use the following pointer ('bookmark'): Type=1 Name=The South Asia Gopher Host=gopher.cc.columbia.edu Port=71 Path=1/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia ---------> OR BY TELNET: Simply telnet to: . Once connected to Columbianet, select the menu item marked "CLIO Plus." Within that menu, you'll find an item on the list labelled "SELECTED TOPICS: Internet Resources By Subject" Select that one, and within it you'll find the South Asia Gopher! ---------> OR BY WORLD WIDE WEB: If you use MOSAIC or Lynx or other web-browser, use this URL: gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/SouthAsia QUESTIONS, PROBLEMS or SUGGESTIONS? please contact David Magier magier at columbia.edu From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Thu Feb 2 17:42:53 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 11:42:53 -0600 Subject: Skt. lexicography Message-ID: <161227018369.23782.7570452204185528233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not long ago in the context of a discussion of the Tamil dictionary "problem," someone (I regret I did not note the scholar's name, and have deleted the message) referred to an article by Ladislav ZGUSTA, "Copying Lexicography: Monier-Williams' Sanskrit Dictionary and Other Cases (Dvaiko"syam)," _Lexicographica_ 4 (1988): 145-64. I bother to mention this again because I have just read this fascinating article, and while I cannot speculate on its relevance for the whole Tamil controversy, being ignorant of that language for starters, I think it might deeply interest anyone who has ever used both PW and MW and consciously or not compared them (and I assume that means pretty much all of us). It might also provide further food for thought to anyone who has ever troubled to speculate on the meaning of a word, and dared to put those speculations into print. This probably applies in spades to those who append "glossaries" and the like to their works, both in terms of the content of the entries and their general organization. If nothing else (although there is much else), the article will reinforce in anyone who reads it the remarkable debt we all owe to Otto von Boehtlingk and Rudolf von Roth, even when we turn first of all to Monier-Williams. (It would be interesting for some energetic scholar to compare, in this context, Apte's work with the above -- he has certainly excerpted texts which it is not clear other lexicographers have examined. -- It would also be interesting in this regard to discuss something about the way the Poona project is dealing with these issues. See Marek MEJOR's discussion of their treatment of some philosophical vocabulary in _Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik_ 16 /17 (1992) -- sorry I don't have the page numbers at hand.) Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From bedell at cse.bridgeport.edu Fri Feb 3 00:03:55 1995 From: bedell at cse.bridgeport.edu (bedell at cse.bridgeport.edu) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 19:03:55 -0500 Subject: HINDU-PHILOSOPHY list Message-ID: <161227018373.23782.6383989452855883817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the address for the HINDU-PHILOSOPHY list? It used to be available through , but now it has apparently been shut down or moved to another site. There were also lists for BUDDHIST-PHILOSOPHY, ISLAMIC-PHILOSOPHY, and CHINESE-PHILOSOPHY, but now they are gone. Can anyone tell me their fate? David Bedell, University of Bridgeport From srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk Fri Feb 3 14:52:19 1995 From: srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk (Stephen Clark) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 95 14:52:19 +0000 Subject: HINDU-PHILOSOPHY list Message-ID: <161227018376.23782.5743840344860611811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From Stephen Clark (srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk) I can't recall if this was one of the FREELANCE group or one of the thinknet group. Both groups have moved. 1. FREELANCE: The Free Lance Academy now has its own proprietary domain name: freelance.com. The address of the listserv is now: listserv at freelance.com The domain name (the part of the address after @) for all the mailing lists at the site is now freelance.com. If you have the old domain name (dialog.uucp.netcom.com) in your address book, be sure to change it because I am in the process of changing to a new Internet provider and that address will no longer be valid. The freelance.com address will follow to the new provider. 2. THINKNET: > From: listserv at apeiron.uucp.netcom.com (NetXpress Listserv) > > This is the help file for the dialognet email lists at Thinknet BBS. > > Thinknet is dedicated to thoughtful conversation in cyberspace. > > Thinknet is part of the Dialognet network of philosophy email lists. > > To subscribe send the message "sub " to > listserv at apeiron.uucp.netcom.com > > The following email-lists are available: > > adorno > autopoiesis (self-organizing systems) > bakhtin > bataille > baudrillard > buddhist-philosophy > chinese-philosophy > creativity > deleuze (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > derrida > dialognet-admin (administration of the lists) > dialognet-announce (announcements for the lists) > dialognet-moderators > dialognet-rules > feyerabend (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > foucault (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > heidegger (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > husserl > kristeva > marx (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > merleau-ponty > lacan > literature (philosophy of literature) > mindbody > myth (philosophy of myth) > nietzsche (slowreading -- primary list at majordomo at world.std.com) > nihilism > process-philosophy > sartre > software-engineering > sufi > surrealism > systems-engineering > taoism > test -- for system testing > wittgenstein > zen > > There is also a cluster of philosophy lists for general discussion > called Philosophy Cluster One. > > pc1-topics > pc1-disucssion > pc1-talk-one > pc1-talk-two > pc1-talk-three > pc1-talk-four > pc1-significa > pc1-trivia > > > To unsubscribe send the message "unsub " > > To make sure you are on the list send the message "confirm " > > If you have a problem send a message to > thinknet at apeiron.uucp.netcom.com > or thinknet at netcom.com > > Kent Palmer > palmer at apeiron.uucp.netcom.com > palmer at netcom.com > From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Sun Feb 5 23:28:32 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 95 17:28:32 -0600 Subject: Skt. lexicography Message-ID: <161227018380.23782.15387491635085684455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few days ago I mentioned a paper, without a full reference. It is: Marek Mejor, "Some Problems of Sanskrit Lexicography (Review Article)," Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 16 / 17 (1992): 149-60. This takes account of the Poona Dictionary through III.1. As I said, Mejor deals mostly with philosophical vocabulary, much but not all from Buddhist Abhidharma texts, and shows that there are serious problems with the "historical" aspects of the Dictionary, as well as other serious issues (such as the citation of "reconstructions" -- translations into Sanskrit from Chinese or Tibetan -- as lexical sources). Mejor's article is well worth reading, and will lead one to reevaluate the utility of the dictionary, I suspect. Another issue which might be of some interest to consider is the quality (not to mention the source) of the English renderings of terms in the Poona Dictionary. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Sun Feb 5 23:21:34 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 95 23:21:34 +0000 Subject: Online Conference on Buddhism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227018378.23782.16853613991622856751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On-line Conference on Buddhism and Human Rights The Journal of Buddhist Ethics is considering whether to host an on-line "virtual" conference on Buddhism and Human Rights, and invites your comments and suggestions. The conference would follow the pattern of a traditional academic conference in that it would have a limited duration (perhaps five days to two weeks), papers would be presented, there would be panel discussions, and the opportunity to ask questions from the floor. The main difference would be that since the conference center is a virtual one no-one would make a journey to attend. In deciding whether not to go ahead with the conference the editors would be grateful for feedback on the following points: 1) Would you be interested in presenting a paper? Papers will be published electronically in a special edition of the JBE in advance of the conference. Plain text (ASCII) and hypertext (WWW) versions of the papers will be available. The editors will also explore the possibility of publishing the conference proceedings in book form in partnership with a traditional press. The subject matter of the papers may be of a social, political, or philosophical nature and deal with contemporary or historical themes in the general field of Buddhist Studies. Papers should be around 5,000 words in length. 2) Would you be interested in joining a panel? The function of a panelist is to comment on the papers presented and participate in general discussion about Buddhism and human rights. Panelists may be academics, politicians, representatives of human rights organizations, or individuals who have knowledge or experience of human-rights problems and abuses in Buddhist cultures. 3) Would you "tune in" to the conference proceedings? Whether or not you present a paper or join a panel you are welcome to "attend" the conference free of charge. The conference will be a public one on the list JBE-L. Anyone can "attend" the conference by subscribing to the list, and can unsubscribe when the conference ends. Comments can be made, and questions put to the authors of the papers and to the panel. All comments from the "floor" will be moderated to minimise duplication. So far as we are aware this would be the first on-line conference of its kind, and the editors would like to assess the degree of interest in such a project before deciding to proceed further. Please send any comments you might have to: jbe-ed at psu.edu and NOT to the list on which this message appears. Sincerely, The Editors Journal of Buddhist Ethics ************************************************ Damien Keown Department of Historical & Cultural Studies Univerity of London, Goldsmiths London SE14 6NW d.keown at gold.ac.uk voice: [44] 0171 919 7171 fax: [44] 0171 919 7398 *********************************************** From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Feb 6 13:12:09 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 13:12:09 +0000 Subject: Skt.lexicography Message-ID: <161227018382.23782.6499494420748606545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Going back to Mejor's article, what gave me more thoughts than his detailled lexicographic criticism was the last paragraph, especially the following passage: " ...it should also be remarked that the whole enterprise was based (almost) exclusively on local resources: the Editorial Board by and wide are scholars from the Deccan College, Poona, and the editions used for excerption are for the most part those produced in India." (StII 16/17:159f.) I am not sure whether this corresponds to Mejor's original intentions, but then, since it is my "daily bread" to ascribe original intentions to authors who passed away centuries ago, I might as well take a "living object" once in a while - I would like to read this as a statement on the impossibility of Big Lexicography as a small enterprise, which would amount to the Lexicographer's mantra "think global, act global", which would necessitate more, more and ever so more international cooperation.... Apart from this direction of thought - has anybody from the Poona's editorial board ever responded to Mejor's (small) criticism of the (big) dictionnary? Or, perhaps, would India-based scholars on this list like to elaborate on the practical difficulties they encounter in the course of similar projects? Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From asher at maroon.tc.umn.edu Mon Feb 6 22:05:28 1995 From: asher at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Frederick M Asher) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 16:05:28 -0600 Subject: Help with a word Message-ID: <161227018386.23782.13586361766244679094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the moment, I'm isolated in my office, not near Epigraphia Indica, but you might check Pallava and Chola inscriptions, several of which refer to the provision of canals for irrigation. Rick Asher From alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de Mon Feb 6 19:08:36 1995 From: alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de (alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 20:08:36 +0100 Subject: Help with a word Message-ID: <161227018384.23782.9627461192576627838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologist, Does anyone knows if the word channel (like irrigation channel, german: Kanal) exist in Sanskrit. Some people has told me that channel is a semitic word which mean Cane. In Pali I have seen the word "udaka" which is translated as irrigator, or ingenieur (the person). I am interested in something that has the meaning: A fixed entity used to carry water. I have examined the words "udabhaara" and "udakaadhaara." The first one mean water-carrier which is not fix (as a cloud), and the second mean reservoir (the meaning of water transport is not there). Thanks in advance, A.Villarroel From magier at columbia.edu Tue Feb 7 11:51:52 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 06:51:52 -0500 Subject: [Susan Thomas : Robin Jeffery's Roundtable issues paper (fwd)] Message-ID: <161227018389.23782.9693252360963632959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For your info, an interesting article on South Asia librarianship and South Asia scholarship in Australia, by Robin Jeffrey (La Trobe) presented at the Asian Studies Rountable at the National Library of Australia. David Magier --------------- >From S.Thomas at nla.gov.au Tue May 9 00:33:27 1995 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:34:12 +22303754 (EET) From: Susan Thomas Subject: Robin Jeffery's Roundtable issues paper (fwd) To: asialib at info.anu.edu.au Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO ***************************************************************** _________________ T T T T T T T T Susan Thomas I I I I I I I I S.Thomas at nla.gov.au I I I I I I I I National Library of Australia T T T T T T T T Phone: +616 2621136 =================== Fax: +616 xxxxxxx ***************************************************************** SOUTH ASIA: FUTURE DIRECTIONS OF AUSTRALIAN RESEARCH Robin Jeffrey La Trobe University Melbourne Three factors increasingly influence Australian research on South Asia: new media technologies, post-modern fashion and economic, "practical" imperatives. Australia's distinguished contribution to research on South Asia dates from the 1950s and flowered in some ways in the 1960s.[1] For me, the remarkable library holdings have scholars' names connected with them. The holdings of the Fisher Library at Sydney University, I associate with Marjorie Jacobs; those at the ANU and relatedly at the ANL, with Anthony Low and the late A. L. Basham; at the Baillieu Library at Melbourne, with S. N. Ray; at the University of Queensland, with D. P. Singhal; at the Reid Library in Perth, with Peter Reeves and the late Hugh Owen. This is not the place to analyze the decline in the commitment of Australian universities to the study of South Asia since the early 1980s.[2] What is significant for our task here is to point out that the scholars who created a following for India/South Asia in the 1960s and 1970s were chiefly classicists and cultural historians or modern social and political historians.[3] Library collections reflect that fact. In December, for example, George Miller at the Menzies Library had a query from an Indian writer in Bombay who had heard that the only surviving documentation about the suppression of a Malayalam newspaper in 1910 was in the Menzies Library. In fact, the man was wrong: it was in the National Library, purchased from a Madras bookseller who had bought up an extensive private collection sold off by heirs in the 1960s. Research on modern South Asian history which such material supports will no doubt continue. So too will occasional projects relating to classical subjects, demography, politics, defence and security, and sociology or anthropology. Let me try to explain where I believe new directions in research will go and thereby illustrate the possible needs of researchers. Media and Technology Modern media technology is transforming South Asia. Though the Indian film industry has long been famous, television only became widely available in India from 1982. Since the late 1970s, audio-cassettes, easy to produce, disseminate and play, have become a major means of making money and spreading ideas.[4] My exemplar for the sort of research that can and should be done in these areas is Peter Manuel's outstanding Cassette Culture: Popular Music and Technology in North India (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1993). Much more than a book about music, Manuel's work illustrates three areas of which Australian researchers and librarians must increasingly take account. First, Manuel is a good linguist who has been able to listen to and understand audio-cassettes in Hindi. The lesson here is that we can no longer hope to understand South Asia through English alone. We never thought it possible with China, Japan or Indonesia; we have been misguided in not having ensured a flexible method of instructing Australian researchers in Indian languages, particularly Hindi/Urdu.[5] For libraries, this means we must devise sensible ways of acquiring key materials in some South Asian languages and keeping abreast of publications in - and reliable repositories for - other languages. Second, Manuel's book emphasizes that we must find ways of acquiring, storing and cataloguing the new media. His work is heavily based on audio-cassettes, mostly musical but some political, produced in small quantities by even smaller entrepreneurs. Manuel credits audio-cassette technology with preserving and reinvigorating languages, dialects and artistic forms. Audio-cassettes provide scholars with invaluable insights into what people want to hear and what they will pay money to listen to. Video-cassettes have had a similar effect. Until satellite television began to sweep India in 1992, there was a ten-year period in which monthly news programs (similar to something like 4 Corners) were prepared as video-cassettes by media companies and posted to subscribers. This method bypassed the government monopoly on broadcast television and created thousands of hours of video-tape on all aspects of Indian politics, society and culture in the 1980s. So far as I am aware, none of this material is held systematically in Australia.[6] In addition, of course, there are thousands of hours of other material - much of it documentary film - prepared on video-cassette each year. The third element of Manuel's research relevant to our discussions arises from his use of specialist publications devoted to the new media and partly made possible by the revolution that the computer and the offset press have brought to printing in Indian languages. Put shortly, the print media in India especially, and South Asia generally, has been revolutionized in the past 15 years as a result of new technology and consumer demand. Manuel, for example, often used the Indian music-industry magazine Playback and Fast Forward, which we do not hold in Australia so far as I know. These new periodicals and growing ephemera are the ore of social scholarship. Scholars would like to find them in a single seam, rather than having to scour the country looking for a nugget here and there. How do we keep abreast of the new media in South Asia and of the published sources relating to it? Fashions in Scholarship One of the admirable outcomes of the post-modern or post-colonial fashion of the past ten years has been to encourage study of aspects of life often previously ignored. Prisons, health, food, sport and costume have, for example, become typical topics for historians and sociologists, not just criminologists, doctors, nutritionists and couturiers. One example of such a project - though it is inspired neither by post-modernism nor promise of direct economic gain - is the study of fisheries in South Asia going on at Curtin University in Perth. Involving a number of scholars, the project has closely scrutinized the colonial documentation on fish and fishing, diet and nutrition, and now has anthropologists and economists, as well as historians, examining the place of fish in South Asia today. Such work, of course, may have economic spin-offs. Perth boat-builders have already sold some craft to India, and marine scientists from South Asia and Australia may find through this project opportunities to work together on common problems. As well as the government publications, archival materials and mainstream books and journals, to study such subjects closely, and thereby extract significance from them, requires access to sources like those discussed earlier - visual and audio media, new periodicals, ephemera.[7] Australian libraries cannot attempt to collect such material comprehensively. But how do we keep track of where it is located in South Asia? Will it, indeed, be collected at all? Indian libraries move slowly and have acquisition programs that long pre-date the invention of audio-cassettes and television. And most of them find it as difficult as an Australian library to find funds to buy a new periodical. Economic Imperatives The example of fishing suggests that economic returns may possibly arise from such projects. In the next ten years, much research will be directly concerned with economic return. The establishment of the Australia South Asia Research Centre at the ANU in 1994,[8] which, in spite of its general name, is obviously intended to be a centre of economics research, indicates a growing sense that South Asia, particularly India, must be part of any successful Australian engagement with India. Such research will, I expect, range from studies of the broad contours of South Asian economies - the sort of work of academic economists - to narrowly focussed research into particular industries or regions. At this end of the spectrum, we will, I believe, see much more attention paid to market research. In India, such research and polling has been carried on increasingly widely and accurately for the past ten years.[9] As the Indian economy opens to foreigners, Australians are going to want to undertake or commission such research. The problem of acquiring new periodicals again arises. For example, we do not hold in Australia a collection of A&M, the chief Indian advertising and marketing fortnightly, founded in 1988. Capitalism - the need to market products and politicians, - drives this kind of research. Yet the people who conduct it have usually been trained as scholars, and at its best, their work is scholarly. One of the ablest foreign journalists working in India recently observed that "Hindustan Lever knows more about the human geography of India than does the Indian government."[10] Moreover, as we meet, the fifth and greatest National Readership Survey (NRS-V) is being carried out all over India with a sample of more than 140,000 people. It will try to learn a great deal about the disposable incomes and reading habits of urban Indians, and based on its findings, millions of dollars of advertising will be spent in the next three or four years.[11] Research Needs In focusing on areas of likely future research, I have emphasized new sorts of sources that such research will require. More conventional sources - periodicals, books, journals and official publications - remain essential. Indeed, the importance of such sources was illustrated for me in a discussion with the ambitious young marketing manager of a major Indian newspaper. He hungered for the next instalment of his region's 1991 census data as if it were Red Riding Hood and he, a career-oriented Wolf. The revolution in printing technology has improved the appearance of South Asian books and periodicals. It is has also allowed governments to bring out official publications faster and sometimes more attractively. Indeed, in India, where 25 state governments also produce official publications, the new technology may be increasing the volume of such documents. These are notoriously difficult to track down and acquire; they often disappear immediately on publication, only to be found years later in the government-press warehouse by a researcher looking for something else. Yet these publications - for example, constituency-wise election results - are immensely valuable. How are we to keep abreast of such publications for 25 Indian states, four Pakistani provinces, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka? First, we need to make the most of what we already have in Australia. South Asianists around Australia and the National Library submitted an unsuccessful bid to DEET for Mechanism C funds last year to survey and expand South Asian collections. I hope a similar bid in 1995 will succeed. As matters stand, substantial bodies of material, especially on microfilm, are still to find their way onto national data-bases. Financed by the National Centre for South Asian Studies in consultation with the National Library, some work of this kind on South Asian newspapers has already been carried out by Anne Brennan of Adelaide who has worked in libraries in Adelaide, Melbourne and Canberra. Second, we need closer personal connections between librarians in Australia and librarians, booksellers and media producers in South Asia. Our goal ought to be to have a representative of the National Library based in New Delhi with a brief to cover South Asia. A less desirable but still productive option might involve lobbying the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) to station a Cultural Attache in New Delhi, part of whose duties would be to represent Australian libraries and carry out the national acquisitions strategy which we badly need. A third, and still cheaper possibility, would be to have a group of three or four Australian librarians, perhaps the drafters of a national acquisitions plan, tour the region to establish links which could then be maintained through electronic mail and facsimile. Third, we need a data base of the best libraries in South Asia, a listing that will allow us to discover rare items and get them on loan or as photocopies. The knowledge necessary to create such a list will require personal relationships to be established between Australian and South Asian librarians. In short, a few Australian librarians have to develop a familiarity with their counterparts in the region. The volume and diversity of media in South Asia presents an immense challenge for librarians. This is compounded by the fact that today every aspect of life is a potential field for scholarly research. Yet the technology that creates the challenge also provides ways of meeting it. What we require for South Asia is an agreed national plan for acquisitions, based on the familiarization of more of our librarians with the region. [ ] 1 Alfred Deakin, Irrigated India: an Australian View of India and Ceylon, their Irrigation and Agriculture (London: W. Thacker, 1893), Alfred Deakin, Temple and Tomb in India (Melbourne: Melville, Mullen and Slade, 1893) and Bertram Stevens, New Horizons:a Study of Australian-Indian Relationships (Sydney: Peter Huston, 1946) indicate earlier interest. [2] The casualty list is in National Strategy for the Study of India and Indian Languages (Melbourne: Melbourne South Asian Studies Group for the Asian Studies Council, 1991), p. 16n. [3] I know that discussing names is fraught with the danger of careless oversight and hurt feelings, but two exceptions come to mind: Sir John Crawford's work on Indian agriculture and Jack Caldwell's demographers at ANU. [4] The Asian Studies Review, published by the Asian Studies Association of Australia, Inc., began to carry reviews of video-cassettes in its November 1990 issue. The Journal of Asian Studies, the leading American journal in the field, began a similar section in February 1991. [5] The National Library's holdings of Indian-language newspapers, dating back to the lustrous 1960s, are remarkably diverse. [6] I have a run of "Newstrack," the monthly video produced by the Living Media India, owners of India Today. I subscribed from February 1990 until Living Media India discontinued the magazine after the cassette of September 1994. [7] Two recent articles illustrate this development. Joseph S. Alter uses sports magazines and books written in Hindi to open up the world of adulated wrestlers in north India. ("Somatic Nationalism: Indian Wrestling and Militant Hinduism," Modern Asian Studies, vol. 28, no. 3 (July 1994), pp. 557-88). Sanjib Baruah uses music cassettes to analyze Assamese nationalism and secession through the work of an Assamese song-writer. ("`Ethnic' Conflict as State-Society Struggle: the Poetics and Politics of Assamese Micro-Nationalism," in ibid., pp. 649-71). [8] Insight, 19 December 1994, pp. 9-10. The other recently established academic body devoted to the region is the National Centre for South Asian Studies, a consortium of the ANU, Curtin, Deakin, La Trobe, Monash, New England and Swinburne, set up in 1993 and based in Melbourne. [9] Political polling came into its own at the time of Rajiv Gandhi's election victory in December 1984. [10] Hamish McDonald, Far Eastern Economic Review, 30 December 1993-6 January 1994, p. 46. [11] The first National Readership Survey (NRS-I) was carried out in 1970. NRS-II was in 1978; NRS-III in 1983; NRS-IV in 1990. *********************************************************************** Michael Ledwidge National Library of Australia From janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Feb 7 14:15:37 1995 From: janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu (janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 09:15:37 -0500 Subject: wrong LCTL gopher path Message-ID: <161227018391.23782.16926098733821876186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last week, I announced the Less Commonly Taught Languages Project gopher, which presents all US and Canadian colleges and universities that teach LCTLs. The path I gave to get to the gopher was wrong. I left off one crucial step. The correct path is below. I apologize to all of you who have tried and failed to make the connection. Please try us again. (Also apologize for cluttering your e-mail boxes and for cross-posting this to as many language lists as I know of.) | +--> University of Minnesota | +--> University of Minnesota Campus Information <<<<==== | +--> All the University of Minnesota Gopher Servers | +---> Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition or URL gopher://lctl.acad.umn.edu Louis Janus Less Commonly Taught Languages Project Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition University of Minnesota UTEC--1313 5th Street SE, Suite 111 Minneapolis, MN 55414 612/627-1872 (voice) 612/627-1875 (fax) ------------------------------- janus005 at maroon.tc.umn.edu or LCTL at maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------- From yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp Tue Feb 7 00:35:37 1995 From: yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 09:35:37 +0900 Subject: Help with a word Message-ID: <161227018387.23782.14492834749327986211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A.Villarroel writes: > Does anyone knows if the word channel (like irrigation channel, >german: Kanal) exist in Sanskrit. Some people has told me that channel is a Varaahamihira's BRhatsaMhitaa abounds in descriptions of irrigation for plants, especially Chapter 53 `dakaargala-adhyaaya'. A word for channel is found in BS 16.16: `jalamaarga', together with `setu' (dike or dam). Another word is in BS 53.120: `(jalasya) nairvaahika'. Michio YANO Kyoto Sangyo University yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp From STJERNC at Citadel.edu Tue Feb 7 16:30:30 1995 From: STJERNC at Citadel.edu (STJERNC at Citadel.edu) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 11:30:30 -0500 Subject: School requests email from India Message-ID: <161227018393.23782.10037349838875507055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Help, please. The fifth and sixth grade geography classes at Pinewood Prep School in South Carolina are studying India and the Himalayan Mountain countries. We would appreciate receiving any email from friends in India, Tibet, Bhutan, or Nepal. TIA Chuck Stjern Lower School Director From brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca Tue Feb 7 17:12:21 1995 From: brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca (J.K. Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 12:12:21 -0500 Subject: samaya-matrka Message-ID: <161227018397.23782.9916602498145871719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is definitely a copy in the SOAS library in London. =.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.= Jan Brzezinski, PhD Centre for the Study of Religion University of Toronto =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= On Sat, 7 Jan 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > I am looking for an edition of the samayamatrka by Kshemedra, preferably > somewhere in Scandinavia (there is no one in Oslo). Does anybody have such > an edition in his library? If I get a location, I can ask our library > service to order it for me. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Tue Feb 7 21:56:22 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 21:56:22 +0000 Subject: Skt.lexicography Message-ID: <161227018395.23782.13005339296869385112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> People keep telling me that the Poona Dictionary team are at last thinking seriously about computerization. I should qualify that: the idea of computerizing the project is not new: I was present at a round-table session at Deccan College in 1982 with Ghatge in the chair when *all* the foreign participants urged computerization. And the idea -- as a serious issue -- was certainly thought about, but rejected for reasons that were not articulated. I gather that the level of urgency about computerization at Poona has grown dramatically with the realization that the unpublished paper slips are deteriorating rapidly, and that the material *has* to be retranscribed somehow. As you can imagine, there are many, many issues involved here, of planning, personnel, finance, prestige, and so forth and so on. It is almost too much to contemplate. But I just *hope* that whatever is done in the way of computerization at Poona is done with full consultation and collaboration with the OUP and especially the people at the University of Waterloo in Canada who created the software and design of the hugely successful Oxford English Dictionary (OED) 2nd edition CDROM and printed edition. This team used SGML to define a tagging scheme for all the structural elements of the OED, and wrote extremely impressive software for searching and displaying data from the dictionary database. This project has been widely praised for the excellence of its conception and execution, and the OED 2nd ed. on disk and in print is a marvel. Much of the design and software technology that went into the OED project is directly transferable to the Poona Dictionary project. It would be very regrettable indeed to proceed with computerizing any project of the size of the Poona dictionary without such consultative input. I am saying this publicly in this forum in the hope that the idea will be "in the air", and may somehow bear on decisions made in Poona. Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk | Email: dom at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Tel: +91-80-843-5320/5249 | NB: if you have | trouble mailing 12/1 Meghalaya, | to this address, Vajarahalli, | try: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Kanakapura Road, | Bangalore 560 062, India | [Do Not send to: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in] From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Feb 8 11:33:52 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 12:33:52 +0100 Subject: samaya-matrka Message-ID: <161227018398.23782.16369409517711812321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There is definitely a copy in the SOAS library in London. > >=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.= > Jan Brzezinski, PhD > Centre for the Study of Religion > University of Toronto >=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Thank you very much for your information. I can inform the network now that I have received a copy of this text through the good services of Richard Solomon in Seattle, so that my problem has been solved. Thanks to all who have been helpful! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Wed Feb 8 12:09:37 1995 From: ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 13:09:37 +0100 Subject: Skt.lexicography Message-ID: <161227018401.23782.4254239695639024190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not a specialist in Sanskrit lexicography, but a worthwhile part of the discussion may be a return to Nye's proposal to encode Monier-Williams as mentioned in Wujastyk's report on the Sanskrit Text Archive Conference, 1988. Some time back we converted a random specimen page (p. 288) with a simple, but programmable, tagging system (to be slightly expanded), which takes care of all the basic lexicographical information contained in MW. On that basis the ascii content of MW can be calculated at 17MB (i.e. ca. 55K per member of the indology list -:) I am appending a list of the tags used as well as p. 288 to this note. -Thomas Malten ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, Pohligstr.1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel 0221/4705340 Fax 0221/4705151 email ami01 at rrz.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ====================== TAGS GENERAL: ppp.nnnn/n = page and column number in MW ... = (at the beginning of a page) entry continued from last page | = root sign (ascii 251) + = elevated circle (=rest of the word to be supplied) (Indentation is represented by a empty line) All Sanskrit words are enclosed with brackets {} SWITCHING OF TYPE: ** = Devanagari large type * = Devanagari small type (Remark: words printed in Devanagari words in MW are ignored as all entries are in Roman transliteration) % = italics type # = bold type $ = normal type DIAKRITICAL MARKS (x = any letter) x1 = dash above x2 = dot below x3 = dot above x4 = acute above x5 = tilde above x6 = dash below x7 = /\ above (/\ = circumflex) x8 = /\\ above x9 = //\ above x0 = //\\ above x/\x = /\ above two letters ========start of Monier-Williams p. 288============ ppp.288/1 ...of a bamboo, L.; a bawd, Gal.; 'key,' N. of a commentary on the Man5ju1sha1; (cf. {%keli-k+$}.) {#Kun5cita$}, mfn. crooked; curved, bent, contracted, R. &c.; curled, MBh.; Sus3r.; Bhp.; ({%a1$}), f. (scil. {%sira1$}) an unskilful way of opening a vein, Sus3r.; ({%am$}), n. the plant Tabernaemontana coronaria, L. {#kun5cita7n3guli$}, mfn. with bent or curved fingers. {#Kun5ci1$}, f. cummin, Bhpr.; (={%kun5cika1$}) Trigonella foenum graecum, L. **{%kun5j$}, cl. 1. P. {%kun5jati$}, to murmur (=|{%ku1j$}), Hcar. *{%kun5ja, as$}, m. [{%am$}, n., L.] a place overrun with plants or overgrown with creepers, bower, arbour, MBh. &c.; (with {%sarasvatya1s$}) 'the bower of Sarasvati1,' N. of a Tirtha, MBh. iii, 6078 ff.; the lower jaw, L.; an elephant's tusk or jaw, Pa1n2. v, 2, 107, Va1rtt.; a tooth, L.; N. of a man, Pa1n2. iv, 1, 98. {#-kut2i1ra$}, m. a bower, arbour, Ma1lati1m.; Gi1t. {#-vallari1$}, f., N. of a plant similiar to Mimosa concinna, L. {#-valli1$}, f. id., Gal. {#Kun5ja8di$}, a Gan2a of Pa1n2. (iv, 1, 98; Gan2ar. 245). {#Kun5jika1$}, f. = {%kun5ja-vallari1$}, L.; fennel-flower seed (={%kun5cika1$}, Nigella indica), Car. *{%kun5jara, as$}, m. (ifc. f. {%a1$}, MBh.; R.) an elephant, Mn. iii, 8274; MBh. &c.; anything preminent in its kind (generally in comp., e. g. {%ra1jak+$}, 'an eminent king,' MBh.; katha1s.; cf. Pa1n2. ii, 1,62 and gan2a {%vya1ghra8di$}); the number 'eight' (there being eight elephants of the cardinal points), Su1ryas.; a kind of temple, VarBr2S.; a kind of step (in dancing to music); the tree Ficus religiosa, L.; N. of a Na1ga, MBh. i, 1560; of a prince (of the Sauvi1raka race), MBh. iii, 15597; of a mountain, Hariv.; R.; of a localitiy; ({%a1$}), f. a female elephant, L.; the plant Bignonia suaveolens, L.; the plant Grislea tomentosa; ({%i1$}), f. a female elephant, L. {#-kara$}, m. an elephant's trunk. {#-ksha1ra-mu1la$}, n. a kind of radish (={%mu1laka$}), L. {#-graha$}, m. an elephantcatcher, R. ii, 91, 55. {#-tva$}, n. the state of an elephant, MBh. xii, 4282. {#-dari1$}, f. 'elephant's cave.' N. of a locality, VarBr2S. {#-pa1dapa$}, m. the plant Ficus benjamina, Npr. {#-pippali1$}, f. the plant Gajapippali1 (described as bearing a fruit resembling long pepper, Scindapsus officinalis), L. {#-ru1pin,$}, mfn. elephant-shaped. {#Kun5jara7ni1ka$}, n. the division of an army consisting of elephants, elephant-corps. {#Kun5jara7ra1ti$}, m. 'the enemy of elephants,' a lion, L.; the S3arabha (a fabulous animal with eight legs), L. {#Kun5jara8roha, $} m. a driver mounted on an elephant's back, R vi, 19, 10. {#Kun5jara8luka$}, n. a species of esculent root, L. {#Kun5jara7s3ana$}, n. 'elephant's food,' the holy fig tree (Ficus religiosa). L. *{%kun5jala, as$}, m., N.. of one of Skanda's attendants, MBh. ix, 2578; ({%am$}), n. sour gruel (cf. {%ka1n5jika$}), L. *{%kun5jika1$}. See {%kun5ja$}. **{%kut2$}, cl. 6. P. {%kut2ati$}, to become crooked or curved, bend, curve, curl, Dha1tup. xxviii, 73; ?Nir. vi 30; to be dishonest, cheat, Dha1tup.: cl. 4. P. {%kut2yati$}, or cl. 10. A1. {%kot2ayate$}, to break into pieces, tear asunder, divide, Dha1tup. xxxiii, 25; to speak indistinctly, ib.; to be warm, burn, ib.; (cf. |{%kut2t2$} and | {%kun2t2. $}) {#Kut2a$}, {%as$} or {%am$}, m. n. a house, family (cf. {%kut2i$}), RV. i, 46, 4 [? = {%kr2ta$}, Nir. v, 24]; a water-pot, pitcher, L.; ({%as$}), m. a fort, stronghold, L.; a hammer, mallet for breaking small stones, ax, L.; a tree, L.; a mountain, L.; N. of a man, gan2as {%as3va8di$} and {%kurv-a1di$} [also RV. i, 46, 4, accord. to Gmn.]; ({%i1),$}f., gan2a {%gaura8di $}(Gan2ar. 47). {#-ka1rika1$}, f. a female servant (bringing the water-jar). {#-ja$}, m. Wrightia antidysenterica (having seeds used as a vermifuge; cf. {%indra-yava$}), MBh.; R. &c.; 'born in a pitcher,' N. of the sage Agastya (cf. Nir. v, 13 & 14), L.; of Drona, L.; {%-malli1$}, f. a kind of plant, L. {#-ji1va$}, m. the plant Putram2ji1va Roxburghii, L. {#-ha1rika1$}, f. = {%-ka1rika1$}, Hcar. {#kut2a8moda$}, m. civet, L. {#Kut2aka$}, {%as$}, m. a kind of tree, Kaus3. 8 (v.l. {%kut2uka$}); = {%kut2hara$}, q. v., L.; ({%a1s$}), m. pl., N. of a people, BhP. v, 6, 8 & 10; ({%ika1$}), f. a hut, Divya7v.; N. of a river, R. ii, 71, 15 (v. l. {%kut2ila1$}); ({%am$}), n. a plough without a pole, L. {#Kut2aka7cala$}, m., N. of a mountain, Bh. v, 6, 8. {#Ku2tan$} (in comp. for {%kut2at$}, pr. p.) {#-naka$}, m., v. l. for {%-nat2a$}, Bhpr. {#-nat2a$}, m. the fragant grass Cyperus rotundus, Bhpr.; Calosanthes indica, Sus3r. ppp.288/2 {#Kut2i$}, {%is$}, f. 'a curvature, curve' see {%bhr2ik+, bhruk+;$} a hut, cottage, hall, shop (={%kut2i1$}, q.v.), Un2. iv. 144; ({%is$}), m. a tree, L.; the body, L. {#-cara$}, m. a crocodile, L. {#-pa1rthiva$}, m., N. of a man. {#Kut2ika$}, mfn. bent, crooked, MBh. iii, 13454; ({%a1)$} f., see {%kut2aka$} {#Kut2ita$}, mfn. crooked, bent, Un2. iv. 187. {#Kut2itr2i$}, mfn. (Pa1n2. i, 2, 1) making crooked; acting dishonestly; being bent. {#Kut2ira$}, {%am$}, n. (={%kut2i1ra$}) a hut, L. {#Kut2ila$}, mf ({%a1)$} n. bent, crooked, curved, round, running in curved lines, crisped, curled, Ka1tyS3r.; MBh. &c.; dishonest, fraudulent, Pan5cat.; Vet. & c.; ({%as$}), m. a he goat with particular marks, VarBr2S.; ({%a1$}), f. (scil. {%gati$}) a particular period in the retrograde course of a planet, Su1ryas.; N. of a magic power; of a river (v. l. for {%kut2ika1$}), R.; of the river Sarasvati1, L.; ({%a1, am$}), f. n., N. of a metre (containing four lines of fourteen syllables each); ({%am$}), n., N. of a plant (={%tagara, kun5cita, vakra$}), L.; a kind of perfume, L.; tin, W. {#-ki1t2aka$}, m. a kind of spider, L. {#gati$}, mfn. being in a particular period of the retrograde course (as a planet); ({%is$}), f. a species of the Ati-jagati1 metre (={%candrika1$}), {#-ga1,$} f. 'going crookedly,' a river; {%kutilage7s3a$}, m. 'the lord of rivers, ' the ocean, VarBr2S. {#ga1min$}, mfn. going crookedly, tortuous, Nir. ix, 26; {%-(ga1mi) -tva$}, n. the state of being capricious, Sa1h. {#-ta1$}, f. crookedness, guile, dishonesty. {#-tva$}, n. id.; deviation from (in comp.), Va1m. {#-pakshman$}, mfn. having curved eyelashes or brows, S3ak. {#pushpika1$}, f. trigonella corniculata, Npr. {#-mati$}, mfn. crookedminded, deceitful, Mudr. {#-manas$}, mfn. id. {#-svabha1va$}, mfn. id. {#Kut2ila7n3gi1$}, f., N. of a magical faculty. {#Kut2ila8s3aya, $}mf({%a1)$}n. 'going crookedly' and 'ill-intentioned, deceitful,' Katha1s. xxxvii, 143. {#Kut2ili1-|kr2i$}, to distort (the brows), Ratna1v. {#Kut2ilaka$}, mfn. bent, curved, crisped, Pan5cat.; ({%ika1$}), f. (Pa1n2. iv, 4, 18) crouching, coming stealthily (like a hunter on his prey; a particular movement on the stage), Vikr.; a tool used by a blacksmith, Pa1n2. iv, 4, 18, Ka1s2. {#Kut2i1$}, f. 'a curvature, curve,' see {%bhr2ik+, bhruk+;$} a hut, cottage, house, hall, shop, MBh.; R. &c.; a room with openings used for fumigations, Car.; Sus2r.; a bawd, L.; a nosegay, bundle or tuft of flowers or vegetables, L.; a kind of perfume (commonly Mura1), or = {%sura1$} (spirituous liquor), L. {#-kut2a$}, n., gan2a {%gava7s3va8di$}. {#-kr2ita$}, n. 'twisted, frizzled,' anything (as woollen cloth) curled or twisted, MBh. ii, 1847. {#-gata$}, mfn. inside the house. {#-gu$}, m., N. of a man, gan2a {%garga8di$}. {#-caka$}, m. 'delighting in staying in the house,' a kind of religious mendicant (who lives at his sons's expense), MBh. xiii, 6478; BhP. iii, 12, 43. {#cara$}, m. id., A1run2Up.; Ba1lar.; (={%bahish-kut2+$}) crawfish, Gal. {#-niva1tam$}. ind. so as to be protected in a hut against wind, Pa1n2. vi, 2, 8, Ka1s3. {#-praves3a$}, m. 'entering a hut,' settling in a cottage, Car. {#-maya$}, mfn., gan2a {%s3ara8di$}. {#-maha$}, m. a festival held in a Viha1ra, Buddh. {#-mukha,$} m., N. of one of the attendants of Kubera, MBh. ii, 415. {#Kut2i1ka1$}, f. a small house (cf. Hariv. 15829). {#Kut2i1ya$}, Nom. P. {%+yati$}, to imagine one's self in a hut, Pa1n2. iii,, 1, 10, Sch. (not in Ka1s3.) {#Kut2i1ra$}, {%as$} or {%am$}, m. n. (Pa1n2. v, 3, 88) a cottage, hut, hovel, Bhartr2.; Vcar.; (cf. {%kun5ja-k+$}); N. of a plant, gan2a {%bilva8di; (am$}), n. sexual intercourse, L.; = {%kevala$} (exclusiveness?), L. {#Kut2i1raka$}, {%as$}, m. a hut, Vet.; = {%kut2i1-caka$}. *{%kut2an3ka$}, {%as$}, m. a roof, thatch, L. {#Kut2an3ga$}, {%as$}, m., N. of a locality, Romakas. {#Kut2an3gaka$}, {%as$}, m. = {%kut2un3g+$}, q. v. {#Kut2ala$}, {%am$}. n. = {%kut2an3ka, L. *{%kut2aca$}, v. l. for {%kut2a-ja$} (Wrightia antidysenterica), L. *{%kut2a-ja$}, as$}, m. See. s. v. {%ku4t2a$}. *{%kut2an-naka$} & {%-nat2a$}. See |{%kut2$}. *{%kut2apa, as$}, m. a measure of grain, &c. (={%kud2ava$}), Jyot.; Un22.iii, 141; ({%as$}), m. a divine sage or Muni, L.; a garden or grove near a house (={%nishkut2a$}), L.; ({%am$}), n. a lotus, L. {#Kut2apini1$}, f. (={%kamalini1$}) a lotus plant, Npr. *{%kut2ara$}, v. l. for {%kut2hara$}, q. v. *{%kut2a4ru, us$}, m. a cock, VS. xxiv, 23; MaitrS.; TS. v; a tent, L. ppp.288/3 *{%kut2arun2a1$}, f. the plant Ipomoea Turpethum (commonly Te?ri). *{%kut2ala$}. See {%kut2an3ka$}. *{%kut2a-ha1rika1$}. See |{%kut2$}. {#kut2i, kuti2ka$}, &c. See ib. *{%kut2ikut2i1$}, ind. (onomat.) only in comp. with {#-|kr2i$}, to fill with warbling or twittering, Hcar. *{%kut2ikosht2ika1$}, f., N. of a river, R. ii, 71, 10. *{%kut2in5jara, as$}, m. a kind of Chenopodium, Car. *{%kut2ila$}. See col. 2. {#Kut2i1$}, &c., {#kut2i1ra$}, &c. See ib. *{%kut2uka$}, v. l. for {%kut2aka$}, q. v. *{%kut2un3gaka, as$}, m. an arbour or bower formed of creeping plants, L.; a creeper winding round a tree; a thatch, roof (cf. {%kut2an3ka$}), L.; a hut, cottage, L.; a granary, store-room, L. *{%kut2umba, am$}, n. a household, members of a household, family, ChUp.; A1p.; Mn. &c.; the care of a family, house-keeping (hence metaphorically care or anxiety about anything; ifc., BhP. i, 9, 39); N. of the second astrological mansion (={%artha$}), VarBr2.; ({%as, am$}), m. n. name, L.; race, L.; a relation (by descent, or by marriage from the mother's side), L.; offspring, progeny, L. {#-kalaha$}, m. n. domestic dissension. {#-vya1pr2ita$}, m. an attentive father of a family. {#Kut2umba7rtham, $}ind. for the support or on account of a family. {%Kut2umba/\ukas$}, n. apartments &c. appropriated to the accommodation of relations, &c. {#Kut2umbaka$}, {%am$}, n. a household, family, Das3.; Hit. &c.; the duties and cares of a householder; ({%as$}), m., N. of a grass (={%bhu1-tr2in2a $}), L. {#Kut2umbaya$}, Nom. P. {%+yati$}, to support a family, Dha1tup. xxxiii, 5. {#Kut2umbika$}, mfn. taking care of a household, MBh. xiii, 4401; ({%as), $}m. a home-slave, L. {#Kut2umbin$}, {%i1$}, m. a householder, A1p.; Mn. iii, 80; Ya1jn5. &c.; ifc. (metaphorically) one who takes care of anything, R. vi, 89, 19; a member of a family, any one (also a servant) belonging to a family, Pan5cat.; Katha1s.; S3a1ntis3.; a peasant, Inscr.; ({%ini1$}), f. the wife of a householder, mother of a family, MBh.; Ragh. &c.; a female servant of a house, Comm. on Ya1jn5.; a large household, gan2a {%khala8di;$} a small shrub used in med. ({%kshi1rin2i1$}, a kind of moon-plant), L.; ({%inau), $}m. pl. the householder and his wife, A1p. {#Kut2umbi-ta1$}, f., {#-tva, $}n. the state of being a householder or a member of a family; family connection or union, living as one family. **{%kut2t2$}, cl. 10. {%kut2t2ayati$} (Dha1tup. xxxii, 23) to crush, bruise, Bhpr.; AV. Paris3.; to grind or pound, paw (the ground), VarBr2S.; to strike slightly, Ba1lar.; Comm. on Ka1tyS3r.; to multiply; to censure, abuse, Dha1tup.; to fill, ib. {#Kut2t2a$}, mfn. ifc. breaking or bruising, grinding, &c., cf. {%as3ma-k+, s3ila1-k+; (as$}), m. aa multiplier such that a given dividend being multiplied by it and a given quantity added to (or subtracted from) the product, the sum (or difference) may be measured by a given divisor. {#-pracaran2a$}, {%a1s$}, m. pl., N. of a people, VP. {#-pra8varan2a$}, {%a2s$}, m. pl. id., ib. {#-ha1rika1$}, f. for {%kut2a-ha1r+$}, q. v., L. {#Kut2t2a8ka1ra$}, m., N. of the mathematical operation relative to a multiplier called {%kut2t2a$}, Comm. on A1ryabh. {#Kut2t2a7para7nta$}, {%a1s$}, m. pl., N. of a people, MBh. vi, 356 (v. l. {%kunda7p+$}). {#Kut2t2aka$}, mfn. ifc. cutting, breaking, bruising, grinding, &c., cf. {%as3ma-k+, ikshu-k+; (as$}), m. a grinder, pulveriser; a multiplier (={%kut2t2a$}, q.v.); a buck-goat with particular marks, VarBr2S.; a kingfisher, W. {#-vyavaha1ra, kutt2t2ka7dhya1ya$}, m. that branch or chapter of arithmetic (treated by Brahmagupta) which treats of the multiplier called {%kut2t2aka$}. {#Kut2t2ana$}, {%am$}, n. cutting; pounding, grinding, beating, threshing, BhP. &c.; (cf. {%s3ila1-k+$}); abusing; ({%i1$}), f. a kind of spear, Gal.; a bawd, Katha1s.; Hit. {#Kut2t2anti1$}, f. a kind of dagger, L. {#Kut2t2a1ka$}, mf({%i1$}, Pa1n2. iii, 2, 155)n. ifc. cutting, breaking, splitting, Ma1lati1m. ========end of Monier-Williams p. 288============ ***This File is C:\SANSKRIT\MONIER\MON0288., Last update 08.02.95 From Alan.Thew at liverpool.ac.uk Wed Feb 8 23:11:00 1995 From: Alan.Thew at liverpool.ac.uk (Alan Thew) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 23:11:00 +0000 Subject: New cti-textual-studies list on Mailbase (fwd) Message-ID: <161227018403.23782.15683425950256602781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This maybe of interest... -- Alan Thew [Note new numbers] alan.thew at liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 18:29:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Donal Hanna To: new-lists at mailbase.ac.uk Subject: New cti-textual-studies list on Mailbase +-----------------------------------------+ | | | A NEW LIST HAS BEEN STARTED ON MAILBASE | | | +-----------------------------------------+ It is called cti-textual-studies Its description reads: cti-textual-studies is a moderated list used by the CTI Centre for Textual Studies to disseminate information of interest to people using computers in the teaching of literature, linguistics, philosophy and logic, religious studies and classics, film studies, theatre arts and drama. To join this list send the command: join cti-textual-studies firstname(s) lastname as the only text of an e-mail message to: mailbase at mailbase.ac.uk (Remember to replace "firstname(s)" and "lastname" with your first name(s) and last name) -- Donal Hanna, Mailbase, University Computing Service, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU Tel: 0191 222 8080 From vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com Thu Feb 9 14:28:42 1995 From: vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com (vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 09:28:42 -0500 Subject: REQ: Ftp site address Message-ID: <161227018407.23782.11598416131919481628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Sorry to bother you but I just forgot the name of the ftp site where most of the texts etc announced here are uploaded. Please let me know. Also if there are other intersting sites please let us know. Thanks, Vineet. From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Thu Feb 9 20:30:49 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 10:30:49 -1000 Subject: Kanal Message-ID: <161227018409.23782.4569585411952836859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Francisco Javier Martinez Garcia wrote: > german: Kanal < ital. canale < lat. canaalis; from lat. canna < gr. kanna > from perhaps a semitic word. Interestingly, the Tamil word for "well" is somewhat similar: "KiNaRu" Regards, Raja. From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Thu Feb 9 14:11:37 1995 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Francisco Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 15:11:37 +0100 Subject: Kanal Message-ID: <161227018405.23782.5547920321099170041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> german: Kanal < ital. canale < lat. canaalis; from lat. canna < gr. kanna from perhaps a semitic word. ======================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Mart?nez Garc?a Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 798 2847 Universit?t Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 798 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 798 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt (Alemania) | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de ======================================================================= From hal_computer at earthlink.net Fri Feb 10 08:44:00 1995 From: hal_computer at earthlink.net (hal_computer at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 00:44:00 -0800 Subject: Kanal Message-ID: <161227018426.23782.12552577207351577885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > >On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Francisco Javier Martinez Garcia wrote: > >> german: Kanal < ital. canale < lat. canaalis; from lat. canna < gr. kanna >> from perhaps a semitic word. > >Interestingly, the Tamil word for "well" >is somewhat similar: "KiNaRu" > >Regards, > > >Raja. Question is whether this was an adaptation from the English (or other European) occupation or it predated the occupation. There are many words in all the Indian languages that have been adapted from European sources. On the other hand, some scholars seem to feel that Tamil split off from the original Indo-European root stock at a pre-Sanskritic stage, and thus exhibits affiliations with certain European words, where Sanskrit appears to have no relation. From cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 02:30:11 1995 From: cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk (cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 02:30:11 +0000 Subject: On soma in the veda Message-ID: <161227018422.23782.13365003115628455694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tibetan "so.ma ra.tsa" or "so.ma r'a.dz'a" (soma raajaa) is the word commonly used there for Indian hemp. bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo (pg 2956) has: SO.MA R'A.DZ'A (legs) zla ba'i rdul te shing sman gyi rigs shig / ro tsha zhing kha/ zhu rjes snyoms/ nus pas srin nad dang/ pags nad/ chu ser gyi nad bcas sel / [Syn] ming gi rnam grang la 'dab bzang dang/ b'a gu dz'i/ 'bras nag po/ mdze 'joms/ zla ba'i lchug ma/ zla ba'i ri mo/ zla tshe kyi rdul/ lug nag su ri pha l'i/ so ma blli ka bcas so/ -- Christopher J Fynn From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:18:18 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:18:18 +0000 Subject: On soma in the veda - Part 1 Message-ID: <161227018411.23782.5583857259968646487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Soma in the veda and Indian alchemy Let me get to the key issue on which I need your help and suggestions on who else I can contact. Please feel free to forward this short note to interested scholars who may be able to throw some more light. I note that there are over 50 decipherments of SOMA, not excluding those that call it bhang, ephedra, aphrodisiac, mushroom, etc. I have a monograph on the subject (which is being published in India), which was precised in the late Prof. Debirprasad Chattopadhyaya's History of Science and Technology in Ancient India, Vol. II. This has also been translated into Japanese in an alchemical work by Prof. Tomatsu Sato. This monograph of 300 pages extensively documents archaeological, literary (veda, brahmanas, arthasaastra and epigraphs) and ancient historical evidence to support my radical new interpretation that SOMA is electrum. This is, in my opinion, of fundamental importance in understanding the major component of the Rks, in fact, the entire Book 9. Without cracking this soma problem, the entire corpus of Rks lies in the realm of the 'mysterious' or 'in ruse' to quote the not-so-charitable phrase of Renou. Renou's phrase has to be interpreted more carefully; the Rks DO NOT try to dodge or deceive or engage in a wily subterfuge; it is our inability to understand the cryptic code (and the lingua franca used) that is to be faulted, removed as we are by the sheer distance in time of not-so-few millennia. BraahmaNas are a different issue. A larg part of the Rks have been deciphered during this century thanks to many magnificent translations and concordances published by erudite scholars. Prof. Subhash Kak goes beyond and searches an astronomical substratum-code. I am referring to the only PROCESS elaborated in the Rks. with exquisite precision, like a chemist's code or manual: the process of soma transformation (or transmutation?) I located an intriguing etymon in Carl Darling Buck, A DICTIONARY OF SELECTED SYNONYMS IN THE PRINCIPAL INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1949. Heading 9.64, p.609; I quote: "Lat. aurum (> Romance and Celtic words, also Alb. ar), fr. *AUSOM (Sab. AUSUM, Festus); OPruss. AUSIS, OLith. AUSAS, Lith. AUKSAS; here also prob. Toch. WAS 'gold' beside WSI 'yellow'; all prob. as 'reddish' fr. *AUS-(WES-) in words for dawn, Skt. Ushas-etc. The view that the Baltic words were borrowed in very ancient times fr. Lat. *AUSOM is improbable. Walde-P. 1.27. Ernout-M.94.Walde-H. 1.86." NOW TO THE SEMANTIC PROBLEM: I have noted elsewhere that SOMA, ASSEM (Old Egyptian acc. to Needham) connoted electrum (silver-gold ore). somnakay (Gypsy) is gold. [It is notable that gypsies were the common tinkers or smiths or metal workers; 'tinker' is the common New English name for a Gypsy in Scotland.] soma-maNal (Tamil) is sand containing silver ore. Can there be a link between SOMA/ASSEM and *AUSOM? [References: Ernout-M. A. Dictionnaire etymologique de la langue latine, 2nd ed.; Walde-H. Lateinisches etymologisches Worterbuch, 3te Aufl., von J.B.Hofmann] Of course, Rigveda refers to ayas prob. as 'bronze'; Lat. aes copper, bronze; aurichalcum brass; Rumanian. arama copper. *AUSOM could be a compounded aes + som? sommu (Telugu) is treasure; Rum. comoara, fr. Slavic, SCr. komora 'chamber, treasury', Slov. komora chamber, etc. fr. Latt. camara, camera vault, arch, in VLat. room, treasure room. Tiktin 396. Berneker 555f. loc. cit. Buck, p. 777. These semantic expansions are fascinating and, to say the least, intriguing. cf. V.A. Smith's work, Coins of Ancient India and A.S. Altekar's Catalogue of the Gupta Gold coins in the Bayana Hoard (1821 coins!): In these works, there is an enumeration of gold coin types; particularly, Kumaragupta (AD 414-55) and Samudragupta (AD 326-75) is reported to have issued a number of asvamedha type gold coins which vary in size from .75 in. to .9 in., in weight from 112.5 grains to 119 grains. As you know, in all vedic ceremonies dakshinas were given by means of gold pellets known as suvarna which was replaced after coinage was introduced. Is there anyway, we can unravel the reference to asvamedha in these types of coins (of course, we are dealing with the historical periods). Rgveda refers to hiranya 174 times (Atharvaveda has 91 references almost as as an adjective, golden); other synonyms used are: chandra, jaataroopa, harita and suvarna. Deities have eyes, tongues and teeth of gold (RV I.35.8; VI.71.3; V.2.3); Indra, Mitra, Varuna are golden in hue (RV I.46.10; X.20.9 etc.), driving from golden seats (RV I.22.5 etc.), in golden chariots (RV I.30.16 etc.), wheels and axles all bright as gold (RV I.64.11 etc.), with golden reins for horses (RV VIII.22.5 etc.) which had golden manes (RV VIII.32.29) and with golden ornaments (RV IX.86.43, RV I.122.14, RV VII.56.13 etc.) Gold was desired (RV VI.47.23, VII.78.9); sun was as gold (RV I.46.10), Prajaapati was hiranyagarbha (RV X.121.1), soma juice was fountain of gold (RV IX.78.4); the sacrificial place was golden (RV V.67.2, IX.64.20); Sindhu is rich in gold (RV X.75.8), it is path of gold (RV VIII.26.18). How do we interpret Satapatha Brahmana verse (XIII.1.1.3): "Now, when the horse was immolated, its seed went from it and became gold; thus, when he gives gold (to the priests) he supplies the horse with seed"? Satyaasaadha Srautasutra, 7.2 has this commercial transaction recorded, so do other sutras such as Baudhaayana, Kaatyaayana etc.: "After having handed over king Soma to the Soma-seller, the Adhvaryu should ask him: 'O soma-seller, is your soma available for purchase?' He should reply: 'It is availble for purchase'. The Adhvaryu should (offer to) purchase it for ten (objects), (namely) seven cows and the three (objects, that is to say), gold, a piece of cloth, and a she-goat..." Gold and silver are intertwined in the adhvaryu's transaction: cf. Bhaaaradhvaaja srautasutra, 11.1.1-9.3:"...(the adhvaryu should further put down) two sheets-- (one) of silver and (the other) of gold. They should be (each) one hundred manas in weight..." Laatyaayana srautasutra (III.1.9 cited in Agniswami's commentary on Anandachandra vedaantavaageesa) says that gold was obtained from the ore by smelting. "Gold is the first offspring of fire..." says a copper plate inscription of Raja Maha Sudevaraja (J.F.Fleet, Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum, Vol. III, p.200, no.41, Pl. XXVII). s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org FAX. 632-741-7961 Manila, Philippines. After 1 March 1995: 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:19:15 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:19:15 +0000 Subject: On soma in the veda - Part 2 Message-ID: <161227018413.23782.4240153609307806868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Soma in the veda and Indian Alchemy Author: s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org (until 28 February 1995); 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. Soma is the ONLY PROCESS elaborated in Book 9 of the Rgveda and in a number of rks in the veda. When put together, the rks mean a perfect chemical/metallurgical code which is further elaborated in the brahmanas which constitute elaborate manuals for the process. So far as these rks referring to SOMA are concerned, they can be viewed as a metallurgical allegory par excellence. It is important to decipher the term SOMA to gain a clearer perspective on the life-activities of the authors of the rks. The oldest interpreters of the Rks, Sayana and Yaska are emphatic that the rks have to be understood in the context of the lingua franca. Yaska emphasizes the allegorical nature of the references to the gods in many rks in the unparalleled etymological work of great antiquity: Niruktam. The continuity of the vedic tradition in the brahmanas (including srauta sutras), in the descriptions of the polity in Kautilya's Arthasastra, in ancient epigraphs provide a firm basis to unravel the SOMA PROCESS in a rational, cultural-socio-economic perspective, isolating the interpretation from religious/ transcendantal overtones. Indo-European and South Asian etyma provide a substantive foundation to confirm the decipherment of SOMA as electrum (silver-gold ore/processed product). Needham observes in his magnum opus, History of Science and Civilization in China the extraordinary linkage between references to soma and gold in hundreds of verses from the Satapatha Brahmana (an extraordinary text, extremely difficult to interpret); when a reference to soma occurs, reference to gold almost immediately follows. Note the refrains: amrtam aayur hiranyam; hiranya garbham garbhastham, hemabeejam vibhaavasoh. In the Tamil tradition, vedi-iyal refers to alchemy (transmutation of material into gold); soma-maNal = sand containing silver ore (Winslow's and Madras Univ. Tamil lexicons). Ashaadha-bhuti is a cheat (Tamil); Ashaadha brick has an important role in the brahmanas which describe the yajnas (cf. agni-rahasya). If soma were any product of creepers (bhang, ephedra etc.) or even a mushroom or bhang, if subjected to incessant firings on the vedi, day after day, night after night, it will be reduced to pure carbon. Asvamedha (performed by Soma-rajnas) can be explained as use of bones in the reduction/oxidation processes (to sublimate the impurities in the ore).[This may also explain adequately the bizarre, explicitly sexual but allegorical references to the queen's role; cf. the role of the queen as a paid official, in Arthasastra]. So can the use of plant products in the yajna be explained as the use of kshaara oxidants. In the gypsy tradition, SOMNAKAY means gold; Old Egyptian ASSEM, ASEMON means electrum; there are also phonetic/semantic concordant references in Indo-European etyma, for e.g. Carl Darling Buck, A DICTIONARY OF SELECTED SYNONYMS IN THE PRINCIPAL INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1949. Heading 9.64, p.609; "Lat. aurum (> Romance and Celtic words, also Alb. ar), fr. *AUSOM (Sab. AUSUM, Festus); OPruss. AUSIS, OLith. AUSAS, Lith. AUKSAS; here also prob. Toch. WAS 'gold' beside WSI 'yellow'; all prob. as 'reddish' fr. *AUS-(WES-) in words for dawn, Skt. Ushas-etc. The view that the Baltic words were borrowed in very ancient times fr. Lat. *AUSOM is improbable. Walde-P. 1.27. Ernout-M.94.Walde-H. 1.86." [References: Ernout-M. A. Dictionnaire etymologique de la langue latine, 2nd ed.; Walde-H. Lateinisches etymologisches Worterbuch, 3te Aufl., von J.B.Hofmann] Of course, Rigveda refers to ayas prob. as 'bronze'; Lat. aes copper, bronze; aurichalcum brass; Rumanian. arama copper. *AUSOM could be a compounded aes + som? sommu (Telugu) is treasure; Rum. comoara, fr. Slavic, SCr. komora 'chamber, treasury', Slov. komora chamber, etc. fr. Latt. camara, camera vault, arch, in VLat. room, treasure room. Tiktin 396. Berneker 555f. loc. cit. Buck, p. 777. Almost all epithets attributed to SOMA (such as amsu [: metallic ore protrusions analagous to shoots of a plant], golden, yellow, shining, resplendent, flowing, filtering: pavitram; crushing on stones; provenance of soma in mountainous terrain) can be explained by this metallurgical-allegorical decipherment. Even the reference to the seller from Mt. Mujavant who is paid and chased away after taking delivery of the ore product can be explained in the brahmana days involving the secretive alchemical processes (agni-rahasya; somanala yantra); these practices continue into the Arthasastra days with an extraordinary role played by the Adhvaryu in a political nexus within the king's domain. It is not a mere coincidence that Sulba sutras also have sutras shrouded in geometrical-allegorical terms: sulba = copper! Katyayana says that his sutras have their meaning concealed. So too can the reference to maakshika in RV. 119.9 (fly, pyrite ores!) be explained. A detailed monograph of about 300 pages by the author: Indian Alchemy, Soma in the Veda provides an exhaustive review of the subject, in the context of the alchemical traditions of antiquity and re-interpretation of the vedic texts rk, by rk. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:21:02 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:21:02 +0000 Subject: On soma in the veda - Part 3 Message-ID: <161227018419.23782.16124046509889369631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Soma as an allegory or metaphor From: s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org (until 28 Feb. 1995); 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 (After 1 March 1995) Let me cite some texts: uta syaa vaam madhuman maakshikaarapan madey somasyausijo huvanyati (To you, O Aswins, that fly betrayed the soma: RV 119.9); maakshika = pyrite ores; fly. cf. "maakshikam (pyrites), digested hundred times with juice of plantain leaves, and then steeped for three days in oil, clarified butter and honey, and then heated strongly in a crucible yields its essence" (alchemical treatise: Rudrayamala Tantra, cited in P.Ray, History of Chemistry in Ancient and Medieval India, p.157); somam adrau; cf. "it is plucked from the rock by the falcon (RV. 1.93.6); soma comes from the mountains, girishthaam: RV V.43.4; soma seated on the mountain top: RV IX.18.1 [Notes: why the reference to adrau, in dual, two stones? maybe, silver ore and gold ore co-mingled in electrum? cf. Marshall's notes re: the silver content of the ore from Kolar gold-fields which might have been used by the Indus-Sarasvati valley artisans circa 2500 B.C.] amsu is the shape of soma : RV I.137.3; amsu means a shoot, stalk (not only plants have this attribute, but also ore-blocks); cf. soma with sharpened horns (tigma srngo): RV IX.97.9; with his thousand knobs, he conquers mighty renown (sahasra bhrshtir jayati sravo brhat): RV IX.86.40; soma stalk... seated on the mountain top : RV IX.62.4; your fingers grow on the back of the earth: RV IX.79.4; it was pounded with stones or in a mortar: RV I.83.6; color of soma is babhru (greyish brown): by night it appears silvery white and by day it is hari (color of fire): RV IX.97.9; soma is not suraa; it is gods' drink; the process is the key: adribhih sutah pavase pavitra aan indav indrasya jatharesv aavihan (pressed by the pressing stones, thou clarifiest thyself in the filter, O soma juice, when penetrating into the entrails of Indra): RV IX.86.23; "thy filter, O agni, equipped with flames, may it cleanse us, cleanse us with the fruits of sacred songs! with these both, the filter and the fruits (of song), O god Savitr, cleanse me through and through: RV IX.67,22-25; so, agni is the filter! Baudhaayana (Taittireeya rescension) provides a list of substances used in the pravargya: skin of black antelope, earth grubbed by a boar, earth from an ant-hill, potsherds from a deserted place, hair from the skin of a black antelope, hair of a goat, a clump of ootikaa or aadaara plant, milk of goat, lumps of dung of a stallion (cf. asvamedha; imagine a drink using these for filtering! they are reducing/oxidizing agents or kshaara in a metallurgical process); soma is not a drink of mortals: "one thinks to have drunk soma, when they crush the plant. Of him (soma), which the braahmanas know, no one ever tastes.": RV X.85.3; same hymn in AV. XIV.1.3; "No earthly one eats you." : RV X.85.4; soma is for Indra: "Boldy drink soma from tbe beaker, Indra!...": AV VII.77; [Hillebrandt and Oldenburg treat soma as a metaphor for the moon or the sun] Falk, Harry, Soma I and II in BSOAS, Vol. LII, Part I, 1988; this is an outstanding bibligraphical essay on over 40 decipherments of soma. It is extraordinary that soma is referred to in dual, or plural (re-inforcing the allegorical nature of the descriptions): "with those two forms" (RV IX.yy.2,3,5); "the forms (plural, not dual) that are thine" (RV IX.66.3); "the shining rays spread a filter on the back of the heaven, O soma, with (thy) forms (plural, not dual)" (RV IX.66.5); the dual reference is to the ore-form and the purified/processed form. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:24:42 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:24:42 +0000 Subject: Etymological dictionary of South Asian languages Message-ID: <161227018417.23782.1499991557169327987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: South Asian languages (25+): a multi-language, etymological dictionary on CD-ROM; Author: Dr. S. Kalyanaraman (After 1 March 1995:) 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 The monumental work is 2,500 pages in fine print. It has 8,000 head semantic-clusters which encompass over 1 million words. [Thus over 4000 headword of Burrow and Emeneau's Dravidian etyma coalesce into over 12,000 headwords of Turner's Indo-Aryan etyma and hundreds of Santali/Mundari/Sora lexemes to generate a semantic super-set of Vaak or Sarasvati or Braahmi which may be appropriate appellations for the ancient South Asian lingua franca.] The work was prepared on WordPerfect 5.1 and occupied 25MB of disk space. I do not know the publisher's price for the CD-ROM. This work which marks a change of paradigm in South Asian language studies, will be of interest to the indology group; for further details on the multi-media multi-language comparative dictionary of south asian languages, contact: Scanrom Publications, 401 Church Avenue, Cedarhurst, N.Y. 11516; Tel. 516-295-2237; 1-800-269-2237; Fax. 516-295-2240; 73760,1005 Compuserve From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:26:28 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:26:28 +0000 Subject: Indus script decipherment - Part 1 Message-ID: <161227018415.23782.1168110847015183809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INDUS SCRIPT DECIPHERMENT: THE JAR SIGN AND CULT-OBJECT Mr. Mahadevan has interpreted the cult-object which appears on a number of seals of the Indus valley civilization, very often in front of the so-called 'unicorn' symbol. His interpretation is that this is a 'filter' in the soma-vedic tradition. Mahadevan's interpretation, inter alia, is premised on the graphical variants of the cult-object symbol in a number of seals. In some vivid seals, the object is clearly composed of a top part which has wavy lines connoting 'flow' according to Mahadevan and a sharp-edged-bottom connoting the culmination of the flow into a filter. Other graphic depictions include what appear to be splashes of drops of liquid. Using the same graphic components clearly identified by Mahadevan, an alternative interpretation is possible. I would call this a drill-bit of a lathe. The wavy signs may be seen to connote 'churning' action. The sharp-edged-bottom may connote the drill-bit. What appear to be splashes of drops of liquid may connote the splinters or dust which fly off from the churning lathe-action. Based on my work, An Etymological Dictionary of South Asian Languages, (a hard-copy is available in the CP Ramaswami Indological Research Institute, Madras) it is possible to assign word-values to the cult-object, graphically interpreted as a lathe. There is a word in Gujarati language which is sangaaDi which can be assigned to this symbol. This phoneme has two meanings: (1) lathe; and (2) a military guard who carries government treasury from one place to another (jangaDi) or treasure-guard. [cf. Semantic congnates evoked by the graphics: sanghaTTana rubbing together, friction (Kannada); Sanku the point of an iron nail (Gujarati); kaTTaaNi pin or screw for fastening a woman's ear-ring (Tamil); sagaDi, saghaDi, SaghaDi a pan to hold live coal or embers; a portable iron grate (Gujarati); cf. semantics of homonyms: sanghavi the leader of a body of pilgrims (Gujarati); sangam society (Old Tamil); kangaaNi, kaNkaaNi supervisor, inspector of crops (Tamil).] The most frequently-occurring sign in the corpus of Indus inscriptions is the so-called 'jar'. This jar sign has vividly depicted rim or handles. This sign is also superimposed on what appears to be a 'water-carrier' sign (based on Mahadevan's corpus of variants of this sign). If the water-carrier sign is deemed to be a phonetic determinative for the 'jar' sign, it is possible to interpret both the signs with one word: bhogika. The -ka is a dimunitive which may connote 'handle'. The word bhogika (bhoyi) means, in south Asian linguistic tradition a 'water-carrier'. Bhoga, moga means a jar. [boghalum, bogharaNum, boghaNaNum a small metallic pot, generally or brass or copper, serving many culinary purposes (Gujarati).] It is possible, therefore, to interpret the 'jar' sign as bhogika. Bhoga also means coil of rings; a vivid Indus pictorial occurs in a number of Indus sealings in bas-relief depicting a coiled set of rings. bhojalum an ape, a monkey (Gujarati); this pictorial appears on an Indus seal, in the field normally used to depict the cult-object. The phoneme, bhog- is of fundamental importance in the south Asian cultural, socio-economic and epigraphical traditions. bhog means 'allotment, lot' (Gujarati). A glimpse into D.C. Sircar's Indian Epigraphical Glossary and thousands of epigraphs of the historical periods of almost all the regions of south Asia attest to the importance of this phoneme, bhog- in the context of transfer or assignment of titles or rights to property. In the Sanskrit tradition, ashTa-bhogam gets elaborated as eight types of enjoyments of property-rights, in particular, landed-property rights including limited rights such as enjoyment of usufructs, or enjoyment of cultivation rights. Bhogi festival connotes the transition of the sun from the zodiacal sign of capricorn to cancer and is of great importance in the solar-calendrical tradition as symbolizing renewal. Variant cultural phenomena are noticeable in kaama-dahana festivities in many regions of south Asia. In Tamil, for e.g. renDu-bhoga-nilam connotes land which yields two crops in a solar-calendar year; in Gujarati, bhog-paDavum means 'to be the property of'. pokkaNam means purse, wallet (Tamil). If the ancient, cultural traditions of bhogi linked to the apparent celestial shift in the sun's motion celebrated in Punjab (called loDi involving bon-fires and social gatherings] and Tamilnadu are analysed, it is likely that this festivity should have included allotments or assignment of property rights to members of a samgha or sangam. It would, therefore, be possible to interpret, in an inter-locking framework of words and meanings in the South Asian language and socio-economic traditions, the two dominant symbols (cult-object and jar) of the Indus script as related to the CONVEYANCE OF PROPERTY RIGHTS to the holder of the Indus seals. The holder of the Indus seal could have been a treasure-guard conveying property; he could also have been a recipient of property rights assigned in the socio-cultural traditions of antiquity. This decipherment is premised on a fundamental assumption of the continuity of the Indus valley socio-economic, language and cultural traditions in South Asia. Given this substantively economic-framework which explains the functions of the seals (analogous to the functions served by copper-plate grants of historical periods), it may be possible to interpret other signs and symbols of Indus script using the simple organizing principle for decipherment: identify the logo-graphs and tag the homonyms to decipher the substantive meanings to be assigned to logo-graphs. 15 December 1994 S. Kalyanaraman, Ph.D. Asian Development Bank, P.O.Box 789, Manila, Philippines Tel. 632-818-0359 (Home); 632-632-4558 (Work); 632-741-7961 (Fax); s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org (e-mail) [Upto 28 February 1995]. 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-439-6380 [After 1 March 1995] From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Fri Feb 10 14:31:10 1995 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:31:10 -0500 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018430.23782.2695506739428888514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few days ago, A. Villarroel inquired about words in Sanskrit for a canal. I hope the following is helpful. The word kulyaa refers to a canal used for irrigation. In the MahaabhaaSya, this is used three times in illustrating how something intended for one purpose to begin with serves other purposes also: Irrigation canals are made for the sake of rice (zaalyarthaM kulyaaH praNiiyante), but water is also drunk from them (taabhyaz ca paaNiiyam piiyate) and one takes water from them for aacamana (upaspRzyate ca). This is said in the Bh. on PaaNini 1.1.13, 1.3.12, and 6.1.50 (Rohatak edition I:263, II.239, IV.362-3); the same is said also in Sabara's BhaaSya on Jaiminisuutra 4.3.2.4 (Ananandasrama, vol. 97.5 [1984], p. 63). In KauTilya's Arthasaastra, kulyaavaapaanaam refers (2.24.5) to areas where sowing depends on water gotten from such canals. Moreover, kulyaa can refer to a trench or ditch in which there is no actual water flowing. Arthasaastra 2.3.33 speaks of such things in connection with a fortress. The word kulyaa is also used in Vedic texts, right back to saMhitaas, but it is not absolutely certain that it refers in these to a canal. In his comments on Rgveda 3.45.3, which speaks of Soma juice going to Indra as kulyaaH reach a lake, SaayaNa explicitly interprets 'kulyaaH' as referring to canals (kRtrimasaritaH), and Gelnder follows suite: 'wie Kanaele in den See.' SaayaNa's gloss is doubtless an echo of Amarakosa 1.10.34, where the wording is kulyaa alpaa kRtrimaa sarit. The commentary on Atharvaveda 18.3.72 explicitly cites this Amara passage. However, the AV passage actually speaks of kulyaaH of ghee (ghRtasya), an image found in other Vedic passages also (e.g., TaittiriiyaS 1.3.82: ghRtasya kulyaam anu), where one also finds referernce to kulyaa of fat (medasaH, e.g., VaajasaneyiS 35.20). So kulyaa could also refer to flowing matter. Whether the term originally designated the channel in which flowing matter flowed or the latter, or indeed both, is, I think, not immediately decidable. But it may not matter. What is clear, I think, is that kulyaa is possibly the earliest Sanskrit term for a canal/trench. George Cardona From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 09:34:11 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:34:11 +0000 Subject: Indus-Sarasvati Script decipherment - Part 2 Message-ID: <161227018421.23782.11235643907333742101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am ecstatic about the possible interpretation of the 'dotted circle' pictorial so dominant in the indus-sarasvati inscriptions. It appears as part of a trefoil sign on the pedestal (apparently meant for a 'linga') and on the shawl worn by the old man (the so-called 'priest-king'). It also appears on the bottom-vessel of the so-called 'cult object' and also occurs on a number of tablets. It is obviously an important symbol, pregnant with substantive 'meaning'. I offer an interpretation: In brahmi script, the dotted circle signifies 'tha'. In Telugu script, it is modified to represent 'Tha'. In Devanagari, the dot within the circle is removed and with a short stroke on top of the circle,'Tha' is connoted. I propose that this is a shortened version of the morpheme: SIDDHA. This is the most dominant sign in thousands of epigraphical records of the historical periods all across the sub-continent. This is an invocation found in early inscriptions at the commencement of the early texts; this is also sometimes confused with praNava symbol; in later records this symbol has several varieties and is sometimes indicated by the letter CHA. It is not a mere coincidence that the name of the Indian alphabet derived from Late Brahmi was called Siddhamaatrka (wrongly called kuTila) which is the mother of the north Indian alphabets like Naagari. I suggest that the dotted circle in the Indus- Sarasvati inscriptions connotes the word: SIDDHA. What does this mean? It means: produce from land; the right of cultivating land (South Indian Temple Inscriptions- SITI); siddha = income from land under cultivation (IE 8-5); right of cultivating land, one of the eight kinds of enjoying landed property (SITI), siddha-aaya = agricultural income; Urdhv-aadhah-siddhi-yutaa = with income from the produce above and below the surface of the ground (IA 16). [cf. seetaa = cultivated land (EI 31)] Now, for the trefoil (three dotted circles joined in a clover formation): JAGAT = three; JAGATI = raised platform (cf. the trefoil symbols plastered all over the beautiful pedestal); corridor of a shrine on the four sides of its open court, used for circumambulation of the main shrine; JAGATI-kaTTe = raised square seat around a tree before a village (Kannada); jagati = lower ground (EI 11); jagati-ppaDai = the upper tier of the basement (South Indian Inscriptions 2); jagati = raised parapet (IA 14). We have noted earlier how the so-called cult-object itself can be interpreted as jagada or sagaDa (meaning a portable furnace and also a churning lathe). In the over-all context of the inscriptions with the 'jar sign' connoting BHOGA, the cult-object may represent the morphemes: JAGATI-SIDDHAM which could be interpreted to mean: 'cultivated raised ground or produce from raised ground'. The seals with the inscriptions: 'jar sign' plus the 'cult object' may therefore be title deeds to the enjoyment (bhoga) or right to cultivate the raised land. It is notable that siddha-peetha or yoga-peetha (IA 10) is a holy place where an ascetic obtained perfection (siddhi) by his austerities. The priest who wore the shawl with trefoils was a SIDDHA, perhaps, JAGAT-SIDDHA or the ascetic of the world? All references are from the Indian Epigraphical Glossary). S. Kalyanaraman. Upto 28 February 1995: s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org After 1 March 1995: 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. From schlesin at umich.edu Fri Feb 10 15:21:30 1995 From: schlesin at umich.edu (Lee Schlesinger) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 10:21:30 -0500 Subject: Summer South Asia Language Program at the University of Michigan Message-ID: <161227018431.23782.7129161170747580291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> South Asian Languages at the University of Michigan, Summer 1995 The Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies and the International Institute at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, are planning a 1995 South Asia Summer Language Program. The South Asian languages now under serious consideration include: Gujarati Hindi/Urdu Marathi Punjabi Sanskrit Tamil The particular languages that will be offered as well as the levels of instruction provided in each language will depend on adequate enrollment. Sanskrit will be offered only at the beginning level. Each course offered will be the equivalent of one year of college-level instruction and will carry 6 or 8 hours of University of Michigan credit. The courses will be taught by University faculty and other experienced language teachers. The courses will be conducted during the Universitys 1995 Summer Half-Term, with classes beginning on June 28 and concluding on August 18. The regular University of Michigan tuition will be charged to enroll in each language course. The program that is currently under consideration is being designed to provide significant scholarship aid to students so that the net tuition cost for a course (after the award of a partial scholarship) for non-Michigan residents and graduate students should be between $1700 and $2000; the cost will be less for undergraduate students who are residents of the state of Michigan. Students will be responsible for their own room and board, although both University and off-campus housing are readily available during the Summer Term. The South Asia Summer Language Program also plans to arrange additional extra-curricular activities for students enrolled in language courses. These include a film series and special lectures on South Asian history and culture. Application forms are now available. When requesting an application form, please indicate which language you are interested in studying and approximately what level of instruction would be desirable (e.g., beginning with no prior background, beginning with some oral exposure to the language, intermediate, or advanced). For additional information and to receive the 1995 South Asia Summer Language Program application materials, please contact: South Asia Summer Language Program 130 Lane Hall, University of Michigan 204 S. State Street Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1290. Phone: 313-764-0352. Fax: 313-936-2948. Internet: csseas at umich.edu. Lee Schlesinger, Program Officer South and Southeast Asian Studies 313-747-2082 fax: 313-936-2948 From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 10 11:54:34 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 11:54:34 +0000 Subject: On soma in the veda Message-ID: <161227018424.23782.4249530391385822180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Christopher Fynn; thanks a lot for the info. Of course, during the historical periods, soma is referred to as a creeper with appellations such as soma-lata. My submission is that the textual references have to be interpreted in the total context of the process involved in making a product which seems to have been an important life activity of the ancient rk-chanters. If it were hemp, it will reduce to pure carbon too, if subjected to incessant firing/purification. Kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: On soma in the veda Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 10/02/1995 11:31 AM The Tibetan "so.ma ra.tsa" or "so.ma r'a.dz'a" (soma raajaa) is the word commonly used there for Indian hemp. bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo (pg 2956) has: SO.MA R'A.DZ'A (legs) zla ba'i rdul te shing sman gyi rigs shig / ro tsha zhing kha/ zhu rjes snyoms/ nus pas srin nad dang/ pags nad/ chu ser gyi nad bcas sel / [Syn] ming gi rnam grang la 'dab bzang dang/ b'a gu dz'i/ 'bras nag po/ mdze 'joms/ zla ba'i lchug ma/ zla ba'i ri mo/ zla tshe kyi rdul/ lug nag su ri pha l'i/ so ma blli ka bcas so/ -- Christopher J Fynn From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Fri Feb 10 19:08:27 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 13:08:27 -0600 Subject: kaamasuutram Message-ID: <161227018434.23782.10778441943267757858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having been inspired by the new translation by Alain Danielou, and relevant to an ongoing project, I decided to take a look at the _Kaamasuutram_. I am having trouble finding a decent edition of the text, however. One Inter Library Loan request for an edition from 1912 (Benares) was denied because the volume is too fragile to lend. I have no reliable and up-to-date information about editions of the text, and of course Jayamangala's commentary. Does a critical editon exist? I really would only be able to use an edition in nagari (or of course romanization; I know there are several in Oriya or Bengali script, neither of which I can read.). Is there an up-to-date and reliable survey of the erotics literature? References highly appreciated. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Fri Feb 10 20:43:14 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 14:43:14 -0600 Subject: Beitraege zur Indischen Erotik Message-ID: <161227018436.23782.2980592582243464907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a sort of related to question to my previous one about the Kamasutra, does anyone know about, or know of discussions of, the bibliographic history of R. Schmidt's "Beitraege zur Indischen Erotik"? The 1st edition of 1902 (of which I have seen an undated reprint) seems to be much longer (by several hundred pages) than subsequent editions, none of which I have seen. Was the work merely reset in smaller size type, or was it significantly revised? The version I have seen has indices (German and Skt.), but I have heard that subseqent editions do not have such indices. Any information, or notes about where I might turn ? Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Fri Feb 10 14:00:15 1995 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 15:00:15 +0100 Subject: Query about a reference Message-ID: <161227018428.23782.14951337058996261222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Ludwik Sternbach's Bibliography on Dharma and Artha (Harrassowitz 1973), p. 20, I found the following insufficient reference to an article that I would like to read: Kangle, R.P., "The Relative Age of Gautamadharmasutra" in: Melanges (L. Renou), 15-26. Does anyone know the full reference? This would be a great help, as GDhS is an important text for my present study of the notion of untouchability in dharmasastra. With best wishes to all Indology-subscribers, Mikael Aktor, Institute for History of Religions, University of Copenhagen. E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Fri Feb 10 23:10:56 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 15:10:56 -0800 Subject: kaamasuutram Message-ID: <161227018441.23782.2723211297540787735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As to editions of Kaama-suutra (mentioned by Ken Zysk), I believe that Charles White posted an inquiry some time ago on this list concerning mss. of the KS with a view to a planned critical edition. I didn't save the message but maybe someone can dig up it or contact him. -Richard Salomon On Fri, 10 Feb 1995 ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU wrote: > Just a quite response to get you started, more to follow. > There is an edition (nothing "critical" exists) with the commentary of > Yashodhara and and Hindi commentary by Devadutta Sastri published > by Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 3rd Edition, 1982. It should > be readily available. Several others exist in nagari from and > earlier period but they are not easily obtained. > A decent but by no means comprehensive and critical survey is > N.N. Bhattacharyya, _History of Indian Erotic Literature_, Munshiram, > 1975. > Schmidt's work underwent several editions and/or reprints. No one any > better than the other. Wezler has written something on Schmidt some > year's ago in an article on the Kamasutra, I believe. > There is much more to say, but I am all out of time. > Good luck, > Ken Zysk > > From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Fri Feb 10 21:37:58 1995 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 16:37:58 -0500 Subject: kaamasuutram Message-ID: <161227018439.23782.1055483571910561221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a quite response to get you started, more to follow. There is an edition (nothing "critical" exists) with the commentary of Yashodhara and and Hindi commentary by Devadutta Sastri published by Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 3rd Edition, 1982. It should be readily available. Several others exist in nagari from and earlier period but they are not easily obtained. A decent but by no means comprehensive and critical survey is N.N. Bhattacharyya, _History of Indian Erotic Literature_, Munshiram, 1975. Schmidt's work underwent several editions and/or reprints. No one any better than the other. Wezler has written something on Schmidt some year's ago in an article on the Kamasutra, I believe. There is much more to say, but I am all out of time. Good luck, Ken Zysk From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Sat Feb 11 00:53:20 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 16:53:20 -0800 Subject: Query about a reference Message-ID: <161227018445.23782.15704198873820312672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Melanges d'indianisme a la memoire de Louis Renou. Publications de l'Institut de Civilisation Indienne, Serie in-8, Fasc.28; Paris: Editions E. de Boccard, 1968. -R. Salomon U. of Washington Seattle WA 98103 (USA) On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Mikael Aktor wrote: > In Ludwik Sternbach's Bibliography on Dharma and Artha (Harrassowitz > 1973), p. 20, I found the following insufficient reference to an article > that I would like to read: > > Kangle, R.P., "The Relative Age of Gautamadharmasutra" in: Melanges (L. > Renou), 15-26. > > Does anyone know the full reference? This would be a great help, as > GDhS is an important text for my present study of the notion of > untouchability in dharmasastra. > > With best wishes to all Indology-subscribers, > Mikael Aktor, Institute for History of Religions, University of Copenhagen. > E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk > > From h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sat Feb 11 09:23:31 1995 From: h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Mizue Sugita) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 09:23:31 +0000 Subject: Kaamasuutra Message-ID: <161227018443.23782.3016823824395307655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan: We (Professor Tokunaga and his several students) are now reading KAmasUtra in a class. Last year I digitalized the text according to KAmasUtram with commentary of yazodhara, dvitIyaM saMskaraNam, nirNayasAgarayantrAlaya, 1900 and added chapter and verse numbers at head of lines according to KAmasUtram edited by ZrIdevduTTa ZAstrI, Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, Varanasi, saMvat 2049 Now proofreading has been done only till the verse 2.2.10. Are you interested in it? Mizue Sugita h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Sat Feb 11 16:00:56 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 10:00:56 -0600 Subject: Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu Message-ID: <161227018447.23782.15893836912211556563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Feb. 11, 1995 Re: Buddha As an Avatar of Vishnu ------------------------------------ Apart from Wendy Doniger's references on the above topic in her book, Hindu Myths, I have not come across any new reference in English. But on the Jain Rsabha as an avatar of Vishnu, I found one: Padmanabh S. Jaini, Jina Rsabha as an avatara of Visnu Bull. of School of Oriental and Asian Studies, XL, 2, 1977, p. 321-337 Yours, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU Sat Feb 11 17:18:52 1995 From: bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU (Pramit Bhasin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 12:18:52 -0500 Subject: Info on Himalayas Message-ID: <161227018449.23782.6810515229976077284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Help, please. The fifth and sixth grade geography classes at Pinewood Prep > School in South Carolina are studying India and the Himalayan Mountain > countries. We would appreciate receiving any email from friends in India, > Tibet, Bhutan, or Nepal. TIA > Chuck Stjern > Lower School Director > > Hello everyone, My name is Pramit Bhasin and I am a third year medical student at New Jersey Medical School in USA. I am also the president of the Indian Student Assoc. here at my school. I immigrated to the United States approx 7 years ago. Although I am not sending email from India as per the articles request ..I couldn't resist sending some interesting facts .... 1. The highest airport in the world is in India in Leh. (Leh is the capital of Ladakh which is a province in the northern most state of Jammu and Kashmir) 2. India is the largest producer of Tea. Most of this tea is raised in the tea gardens of the eastern state of Assam - which is on the eastern slopes of the Himalayas. 3. In 1994 both Miss World and Miss Universe were from India. 4. The constitution of India is written in 15 different languages. 5. India is also the largest producer of movies. 6. India got independent in 1947. 7. India is the largest democracy in the world. Take care and good luck to all in school. Sincerely Pramit Bhasin From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sat Feb 11 17:14:37 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 17:14:37 +0000 Subject: kaamasuutram Message-ID: <161227018453.23782.5731277144259951443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is the message Richard S. was referring to: ======================================================================= % Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 16:08:22 EST % From: "J. Daniel White" % Subject: Location of Kamasutram mss. % To: indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK % X-Acknowledge-To: % Message-ID: <"mailhub.li.636:13.06.94.20.14.18"@liverpool.ac.uk> % % I am now assembling mss. for a critical edition of the Kamasutram with a % new English translation. Having noted the accessibility of most % non-published mss. in Indian archives, libraries, etc., I am now trying % to locate the availability of the same in museums and odther collections % in the U.S. and Europe. If you know of such holdings, please contact me % at my e-mail address. I am interested in Sanskrit mss. which do and do % not contain Indian miniature paintings, line drawings, etc. THANKS! Dominik From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Sun Feb 12 00:03:38 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 01:03:38 +0100 Subject: I agree once more Message-ID: <161227018451.23782.10094325552551513392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Distinguished Members of the List, I got a confirmation (from D.Wujastyk) of the info that some people have to pay dearly for every bit of messages on the list, so I'm going to be rather succint (don't want to be abrupt though - excuse me). I'd like to thank R.W.Delariviere for pointing to my remarks on the democracy on the list, but I think I agree with Dominik on so many points that we aren't really diagonally different. However, for me the question of democracy is and will be crucial. I don't like "banning","kicking" etc. in any community especially when the judges are not chosen by all members of the community and rules are not clear enough. What I observe on Internet is growing wave of agression and for me to ban somebody on a list is more aggressive then using strong words. Dr Enrica Garzilli wrote about netiquette as ethical rules. I think sense of kindness is different for example in India (eg they dont say "thank you" and "please" over there so often as in Poland) then in the West and we should rather show by our own examples how good it is to be nice then getting offence from (only) words. I don't want to look for over- or undertones and for example say that letter of Dr Garzilli starts with a remark on a possibility of banning from the list and ends with an information on some other list available and submits in the middle information that there are some "basic rules of politeness". Such a resume of her letter would be unjust and harmful to her and I'd like to thank her wholeheartedly for the informations included in her letter. So I agree with S.Harth and my slogan would be: "Less sensitivity about ourselves, more forgiveness in respect to others". People are different. Applying of censorship (they call it moderating or am I wrong?) looks also as a kind of slight aggression to me. I think it is potencially dangerous. Some ideas may be kept hidden to a community, some may be ascribe to wrong people. Inadvertantly, Dominik himself shows such a possibility. I sent my letter on 14 January and it was "published" on 17 January. I wrote about the FAQ idea and Dominik in his private answer to me (which I got on 14 January) let me know that he thinks about it. Then, in a letter published on 16 January, A.Burton expresses ideas similar to my own without, however, using the word "FAQ" and Dominik publically ascribes the idea of FAQ to A.Burton and others follow him. It looks I repeat the ideas of A.Burton as my own (and I am not happy about it). I am sure of good intentions of all parties involved but my example demonstrates how difficult it may bo to moderate a list of academic character. We all know how much research workers are sensitive about priority of ideas and freedom of publication. Maybe an information of the date and time of receiving a message by the list "owner" could be added to the published message. Maybe an information about publishing messages in the order of receiving them (if that's the practice on the list) could be put into some kind of info on the list. I do not like the proposal of Dominik to discuss matters like this with him in private (even though many anticipated the proposal). I think matters of a community should be clearly stated in public. I must stress that I treasure a lot the achievements of Dominik and I think that the list is really good but I would simply expect magnanimity on the part of great authorities on the list (please publish me and don't ban me :-)). I ask forgiveness in connection with my lack of sense of humour too (maybe my broken English would recompensate for it). When saying something while joking you are ambiguous - people don't know if you snear at the expressed opinions or you expresses your own opinions making them more digestable with the salt of jokes. So I agree with the opinion of L.M.Fosse (but I thank S.Harth as well). Before I get quiet I should say that I'm sorry if I happened to offend enybody with my frankness. Maybe I should be amore polished Pole. Lesl~aw Borowski From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Sun Feb 12 13:46:35 1995 From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (R Hayes) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 08:46:35 -0500 Subject: Moderation versus censorship Message-ID: <161227018457.23782.11161800616784335607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lesl~aw Borowski writes: > Applying of censorship (they call it moderating or am I wrong?) >looks also as a kind of slight aggression to me. I think it is >potencially dangerous. Some ideas may be kept hidden to a community, >some may be ascribe to wrong people. Yes, I think it is wrong to equate moderating a list with censorship. There is, of course, always an element of making a judgement in the process of moderating a list, and there is always some risk that some people will not be pleased with a judgement that has been made. My own experience in owning and operating a moderated list, however, has been that most subscribers who bother to say anything at all on the topic of moderation express appreciation. The kinds of things that we filter out are misdirected messages (requests for unsubscription that should have been sent to the listserv, requests for basic information about the list, etc), personal messages (which usually result when someone uses the reply function of a mail program and does not realize that the reply goes to tout le monde and not just to the long-lost friend or former lover whose letter on a public list is being replied to), and messages that are quite tangential to the subject matter of the list. It is this last category that is most likely to bring charges of censorship or violation of academic freedom, so we rarely quash a line of discussion entirely. Recent cases that come to mind where we did quash a discussion did not result in a single complaint about our having quashed it; the only complaints we got were from people who wondered why we did not stop the discussions more promptly. (The other moderator and I always consult with one another before stopping a thread of discussion. Just to give you some idea of how we have exercised our judgement, we quashed a rather heated debate about prayer in publicly funded schools in the USA, and we stopped a silly discussion about astrology. In both cases, we thought the topics had no real bearing on the academic study and teaching of Buddhism, which is the announced subject matter of the list.) I am convinced from my own experiences, both as owner of a moderated list and as a subscriber to several, that moderation improves the quality of a discussion list, especially as the membership increases to more than a few hundred. The principal disadvantage of moderation is that it is time-consuming for the moderator, and it is not an expenditure of time that earns any feathers in one's academic bonnet. If it's praise, promotions and accolades you're after, do not volunteer to serve as the moderator of a discussion group. But be grateful when someone else does volunteer to do it. Richard P Hayes (cxev at musica.mcgill.ca) Owner of buddha-l at ulkyvm.louisville.edu From BAKULA at delphi.com Sun Feb 12 13:58:47 1995 From: BAKULA at delphi.com (Sid Harth) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 08:58:47 -0500 Subject: I agree Message-ID: <161227018459.23782.2722373133187618502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bless you 'Les' You make mess More or less With your case And strong arguments Using more words Than allotted less Sid Harth `[1;33;45mRainbow V 1.11 for Delphi - Test Drive From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sun Feb 12 10:13:25 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 10:13:25 +0000 Subject: Info on Himalayas Message-ID: <161227018455.23782.13253433523624913257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pramit Bhasin said: > 4. The constitution of India is written in 15 different languages. Out of curiosity, is one of them Sanskrit? If so, that would make an amusing/interesting reading excercise for the end of a first-year class. Dominik >?From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org 11 95 Feb MNL 09:39:37 Date: 11 Feb 95 09:39:37 MNL From: "s. kalyanaraman" Subject: Soma in the veda - Part 4 Re: Soma metaphor soma earth, electrum, alchemy (contd.) Why do I call the references to soma in the veda an allegorical essay? Because, Yaska said it; Sayana said it. "Soma is a plant; the word is derived from (the root) su (to press): it is pressed again and again. Its character (as a deity) is mostly secondary and only rarely primary. In order to point out its (primary use) in the hymns relating to soma-juice while it is being purified, we shall quote... be pure with thy sweetest and most gladdening stream. O soma, thou are pressed for Indra to drink. The stanza is explained by the mere reading of it. Now here is another stanza addressed to him or to the moon, as follows. Because they grind the herbs together, one thinks that he has drunk the soma. Of the soma which the braahmaNas know, nonw whatsoever partakes..." (Niruktam 11.2; 11.3; 11.4). May we, with an active mind, partake of thy pressed soma, as if it were paternal property, pitrasyeva dhanasya... (Niruktam 4.7); maujavatah: grown on Moojavat, a mountain (Nir. 9.8) [cf. sum = earth, soil (Gaw.Bshk.Tor.Phal.Sh. Dardic languages); com = wealth; cOma-ticai = Kubera's quarter, north (Tamil); synonyms of soma in Sabdasangraha of Kannada: saaranga = gold, camphor (Etymological Dictionary of South Asian Languages: 3597)] "The meaning of expressions of the vedic sanskrit and of the popular speech is not different: vaakyaartho lokavedayoraviSiSTah (Poorva.Meemaamsa.1.31)... abhidhaane rthavaadah: there is a FIGURATIVE DESCRIPTION in such expressions (of describing such lifeless things as grass, stones, and axe as if they were living beings)" [SayaNa's preface, p.3] "There is no such contradiction, because even one Rudra by his greatness can take on a thousand forms... guNaadavipratiSedhah syaat: on account of the FIGURATIVE DESCRIPTION, there will be no contradiction." (Poorva.Meemaamsa.i.2.47) "Electrum (Egyptian assem) was by the ancients considered as a distinct metal -- just as silver and gold were distinct metals. It is supposed that it was first known to the Egyptians in the form of an alloy, either native, or as the product of the working of a naturally occurring ore... In Pliny's time, the word was also in use, though recognized as an alloy of gold and silver. In all gold, says Pliny, there is some silver... an 'artificial' electrum, he says, is made by mixing gold and silver... he considers the native quicksilver as different from that obtained by heating 'minium' (cinnabar)... Pliny, like all other ancient Latin writers, uses but one term 'aes' to designate copper, bronzes, and brass... Gold, as obtained by the Egyptians, was often especially rich in silver, so that the color was notably light, and was considered by them as a different metal-- a white gold or 'asem'. Beada and gold leaf of the twelfth dynasty (perhaps 2000 BC), analyzed by Berthelot, gave 82.94 percent gold to 16.56 percent silver, and 85.92 percent gold to 13.78 percent silver." (John Maxson Stillman, The story of alchemy and early chemistry, New York, Dover Publications, Inc., 1924, p. 64-65; p.u). cf. the silver content recorded in gold jewellery in Marshall's Mohenjodaro (Indus-Sarasvati civilization) excavation reports. "... Egyptian recipes in the Leyden Papyrus (discovered in a tomb at Thebes in Egypt; written in Greek at c. 300 AD) deal mainly with the production of imitations of an alloy of gold and silver which is called by its old Egyptian name asem (the Greek elektron and Roman electrum), which was regarded as a separate metal... and were even, better than the real." (J.R. Parrington, A short history of chemistry, London, Macmillan, 1960, p.17) From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Sun Feb 12 15:21:12 1995 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 10:21:12 -0500 Subject: Moderation versus censorship Message-ID: <161227018461.23782.17089704965185161848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I could not agree more with Richard Hayes' opinion on moderation. Thanks for the thoughtful posting. -- Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Sun Feb 12 18:22:11 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 19:22:11 +0100 Subject: I agree: moderation Message-ID: <161227018464.23782.2132636691457910436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Richard P. Hayes: Thank you for confirmation that acts (of a a few persons) of preventing people from expressing their views in public (I call it censorship) are included in the process of moderating a list. Thanks for your work too. To Sid Harth: Strong arguments are good if you don't much argue. Who allots words? My letter was sent ca a month after the previous one. To all interested: I think we can make messages thiner by not citing long passages from the previous post and by not giving lengthy informations about ourselves and multi-line addresses at the beginning or the end of a letter (I don't mean anybody specifically, sorry it may looks like that). Maybe we could agree on a special name (or part of it) of the subject, say "organisational" = "org" for short, that would let people who are not interested in matters of the way the list functions to filter the messages. I'm happy to hear voices saying simply: "I agree.". They support my ideas (signalled in my previous letter) about the need for voting on important matters. I must stress once more that I think INDOLOGY is great, moderators are working really hard (THANK YOU) but I think we should allow people to say things we think are wrong or stupid. I know I'm raising very general question and one pertaining rather to the future of the network but from an "enlightened absolutism" to an absolutism with a darker shade the way may not be very long. That's why I think electronic communication should start forming democratic structures. Lesl~aw Borowski PS I got a citation from a publication: "a cyberspace full of gatekeepers and fiefdoms, where those who would disagree must learn the oblique expression of the dissident under autocracy moderated list". So the problems already exist somewhere. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 13 08:04:42 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 08:04:42 +0000 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018465.23782.8814633936185368540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I read with interest George Cordona's comment re: the earliest Sanskrit term for canal/trench. I disagree with his suggestion that kulya is likely to be this term. My reasons, on grounds of semantic clustering (elucidated in my comparative, etymological dictionary of south asian languages) are as follows: Skt. kUla = pond, pool; Tamil kuLam = tank, reservoir, lake; glUnju = a small pool, puddle (Kui). I suggest that kulya in its early meaning is likely to connote a ditch or pond. What are the other possible ancient terms for canal/trench? Pkt. khalla, khAla = canal, creek, trench; Skt. khalla id.; kAl, kAlve = water-course, channel, brook (Kannada); kAva = gutter; kAl-vA = river mouth, irrigation channel (MalayALam); kAl, kAl-vAy = irrigation channel (Tamil); kaZHi = ebbing brook (MalayALam), backwater (Tamil); kaRna = canal (KonDa); karna = irrigation channel (Kuwi) s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Mon Feb 13 13:56:04 1995 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 08:56:04 -0500 Subject: s. kalyanaraman's note Message-ID: <161227018467.23782.6813436535437446448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Kalyanaraman's argument depends on two related points: (1) assuming that Skt. kuula means 'pond, pool' and (2) etymological connections. Concerning (1): kuula in the earliest attestations does not refer to a standing body of water like a pond or pool. Thus, in BRhadaaraNyaka Up. 4.3.18 the image is invoked of a big fish that goes along both banks of a river, the closer one and the one on the other side (tadyathaa mahaamatsya ubhe kuule anusancarati puurvaM caaparam ca ...). Clearly, there is no question of a pond or pool. The earliest attestation also concerns an image, in Rgveda 8.47.11: aadityaa ava hi khyataadhi kuulaad iva spazaH. Here the Aadityas are asked to look down (ava ... khyata) as spies look down from a kuula. Here again there is no question of a pool or pond. In both cases, kuula refers to the bank of a river, a meaning the term has also later, as seen, e.g., from AmarakoSa 1.10.7 (kuulaM rodhaz ca tiiraM ca pratiiraM ca taTaM triSu), where it is one of five words for the bank of a river, along with such well-known terms as tiira and taTa. When Kalyanaraman says, ' I suggest that kulya in its early meaning is likely to connote a ditch or pond,' he does not support this with any evidence except for etymological connections. He then brings in khalla, which does not exclusively refer to a ditch or canal and is not found in the earliest known texts. In my own note, I purposely refrained from bringing in any questions of etymology and restricted myself to the question of usage that is definitely known. That there were more terms in early Indo-Aryan which could refer to a canal and that these could indeed be etymologically connected with terms in Dravidian and so on (which Burrow dealt with, see Turner sv. kulyaa) are possibilities no one would want to deny. On the other hand, I hope we can agree that good and prudent procedure dictates that one begin with the definitely known and that earliest attestations be given pride of place. Etymology can then be brought in. To depend on less than firmly fixed assignments of meanings and chronology together with etymological connections alone is, at least to me, not very satisfying. George Cardona From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 13 17:43:10 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:43:10 -0500 Subject: moderation Message-ID: <161227018476.23782.14982770427161265903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a non-political indological question. In Sanskrit, we have forms like SuklIkaroti and SuklIbhavati. Has anyone seen any attested past tense forms of these forms with the augment 'a'? I have seen past perfects of the type SuklIcakAra, but I have not seen Sukly-akarot. If anyone knows attestations of forms like Sukly-akarot, please let us know. Second question. Patanjali is known to KaiyaTa (11th cent. A.D.) as an incarnation of Seza, the serpent divinity. This is also depicted iconographically in the Cidambaram NaTarAja temple. Does anyone know of older iconographic or textual sources for this motif? I have a suspicion that Saiva Agama texts may contain such references. I have looked, but have not yet found any older references. Madhav Deshpande From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Mon Feb 13 18:01:55 1995 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 13:01:55 -0500 Subject: moderation Message-ID: <161227018474.23782.7923690548508861829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Jakub Cejka wrote: > I AM STRONGLY FOR MODERATION OF THE LIST > I do not think that moderation can be compared to censorship as censorship > rather evokes goverment controll of opinions to be published, but moderation > is more similar to the work of an editor-in-chief of a magazine and if he > does not publish one's opinion one is not prohibited to express it > elsewhere. So what censorship? > If I decide to talk about indian politics I may even send my message to some > of the members of the list directly - no problem! > When I subscribed to indology list which claimed to be academical I expected > that I would get only messages about classical indology or closely related > topics and not long discussions about politics, subscribtion requests etc. I strongly agree! The issue is not censorship but rather the purpose and topics of discussion for which this list was created. I don't think anyone is saying that politics is not a valid topic; it is just not one which falls in the Indology list. Is there a another list for which such topics would be more appropriate? Thinking back on this last year, the majority of items that seem to come through have little, if anything, to do with the intended topic of discussion of this list: classical indology. Perhaps, the purpose of the list should be further clarified. I am not really sure if there is a need for moderation but rather for individuals to follow 'netiquette' (from Erica Garzilli's submission not to long ago) in what it is posted to this list. > but it becomes so time-consuming sometimes to delete all what is not relevant. This is quite true!!! >It is however not the only place to express one's ideas if they are "moderated out". As mentioned above. There are a number of list available out there in cyberspace which are appropriate to certain kinds of discussions. I am sure that individuals who share an interest in areas outside of classical indology will find them an intereting and enjoyable place to discuss and exchange ideas. Carlos Lopez Harvard University Dept. of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Graduate Student From cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 14:38:46 1995 From: cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 14:38:46 +0000 Subject: Temporary Absence Message-ID: <161227018470.23782.13838027175969906610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be leaving for Nepal on 20 Feb 1995 for one or two months. While I am away I am setting my options for this list to NOMail and NOFiles - regards Chris -- Christopher J Fynn | cfynn at sahaja.demon.co.uk | +44 (0)171 625 8925 From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Mon Feb 13 16:22:07 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:22:07 +0100 Subject: moderation Message-ID: <161227018469.23782.660087926863116303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I belong to those members of the list who are not professional indologists (I'm only a student of this field), however I AM STRONGLY FOR MODERATION OF THE LIST I do not think that moderation can be compared to censorship as censorship rather evokes goverment controll of opinions to be published, but moderation is more similar to the work of an editor-in-chief of a magazine and if he does not publish one's opinion one is not prohibited to express it elsewhere. So what censorship? If I decide to talk about indian politics I may even send my message to some of the members of the list directly - no problem! When I subscribed to indology list which claimed to be academical I expected that I would get only messages about classical indology or closely related topics and not long discussions about politics, subscribtion requests etc. Anyway, the discussion about moderating yes or no increases, what about really voting about it. First we should make a "referendum" about it and than discuss if Dominik or anybody else will really agree to do it. Please do. The list is for me and many others (I think) the only means of contact with the other indologists and possibly amateur indologists of the world, but it becomes so time-consuming sometimes to delete all what is not relevant. It is however not the only place to express one's ideas if they are "moderated out". Jakub Cejka, Charles University, Prague P.S. It is a good idea to have conventional subject titles as "org." which was proposed. -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From garzilli at husc.harvard.edu Mon Feb 13 23:01:57 1995 From: garzilli at husc.harvard.edu (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 18:01:57 -0500 Subject: moderating not moderation Message-ID: <161227018484.23782.1578378127666570166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Leslaw Borowski wrote: > To C.Lopez: Do you think "netiquette" is only one,accepted by all and > obvious to all? Lesl~aw Borowski > > Dear Mr. Borowski, it is a pleasure to find each time your mail in the list......each time I'm logged on....(once a day at least..). When I suggested to you a netiquette, I suggested to be silent unless you understand the geenral tone, the topic, etc.. Just like when you enter a new house of foreign hosts.... Yes, there are general rules...unless the group has determined new rules.. However, regarding the many interesting questions you asked me, I will reply to you privately. I am sorry for the delay. I will also send the address of that list I mentioned already... Best regards enrica garzilli From garzilli at husc.harvard.edu Mon Feb 13 23:11:32 1995 From: garzilli at husc.harvard.edu (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 18:11:32 -0500 Subject: I agree: moderation Message-ID: <161227018487.23782.12668390252522992910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Lesl~aw Borowski writes: > > >PS I got a citation from a publication: "a cyberspace full of > >gatekeepers and fiefdoms, where those who would disagree must learn > >the oblique expression of the dissident under autocracy moderated > >list". So the problems already exist somewhere. > Citation from : "Seventeen", a magazine for adolescents (my 16 years daughter reads it)perhaps taken from "Surfing on the Internet", by J.C.Herz ehm ehm... From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Tue Feb 14 00:54:15 1995 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 19:54:15 -0500 Subject: moderating not moderation Message-ID: <161227018491.23782.128186942750293222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Leslaw Borowski wrote: > To C.Lopez: Do you think "netiquette" is only one,accepted by all and > obvious to all? Lesl~aw Borowski > > I would expect so. One doesn't join a list on Buddhism and then start a discussion on Paul Tillich. The topics of most list are clearly demarcated. Perhaps, this list should go about demarcating more clearly what classical indology means. Once this is clear to everyone, then netiquette for this list would be clear. I am certain that everyone here would be quite vocal if someone began a discussion on Church History; a topic which is clearly outside of the confines of this list. Again, "classical Indology" should be further defined and clarified. Carlos Lopez Harvard University Dept of Sanskrit From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Mon Feb 13 20:10:53 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:10:53 +0000 Subject: I agree: moderation Message-ID: <161227018481.23782.11592604957639911417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lesl~aw Borowski writes: >To Richard P. Hayes: Thank you for confirmation that acts (of a >a few persons) of preventing people from expressing their views in >public (I call it censorship) are included in the process of >moderating a list. Thanks for your work too. A list to which one subscribes is not 'in public'. It is a private group of individuals who subscribe on a specific set of terms. Usenet exists for the purpose of the kind of open discussion you are suggesting. > I'm happy to hear >voices saying simply: "I agree.". They support my ideas (signalled in >my previous letter) about the need for voting on important matters. I >must stress once more that I think INDOLOGY is great, moderators are >working really hard (THANK YOU) but I think we should allow people to >say things we think are wrong or stupid. I have to pay a telephone charge (out of my own pocket) for every message posted on Indology. Naturally I would not be pleased to receive large numbers of postings which are on entirely different subjects which do not interest me. Or, worse, long postings from those with much learning but little scholarship. >I know I'm raising very general question and one pertaining rather to >the future of the network but from an "enlightened absolutism" to an >absolutism with a darker shade the way may not be very long. That's >why I think electronic communication should start forming democratic >structures. Fine, that's your opinion. Personally I would like there to be moderated lists to which I can subscribe for strictly academic discussion. Indeed I would favour a rather stricter form of moderation. Otherwise one is endlessly explaining elementary points to those who do not have the tools of scholarship to understand. >PS I got a citation from a publication: "a cyberspace full of >gatekeepers and fiefdoms, where those who would disagree must learn >the oblique expression of the dissident under autocracy moderated >list". So the problems already exist somewhere. Anyone can start a new list. To say that other people should not have private listgroups restricted in whatever way they choose would be about as undemocratic as you can get. Are you really saying this? Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Mon Feb 13 19:10:58 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:10:58 +0100 Subject: moderating Message-ID: <161227018479.23782.4277629853636055485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > moderation > is more similar to the work of an editor-in-chief of a magazine and if he > does not publish one's opinion one is not prohibited to express it > elsewhere. So what censorship? There are different notions of censorship. The problem is who should decide on rules and decisions of allowing subjects. I suggested voting already in my letter "I don't quite agree". If we decided to choose people to do some work on the list and they agreedthat's OK. But I'm not getting tired of touching twice a key to delete a message so I would spare some work of a moderator. >The list is for me and many others (I think) the only means of > contact with the other indologists and possibly amateur indologists of the > world, and this is exactly the reason an "owner" of the list should not simply say to anybody "go and make your own list". A "discussion list" is different from a magazine. It is meant much more for discussion and exchanging views (also - changing views). I think also in most magazines their owners invested their own money for the sake of getting something (usualy money) in return. Dominik Wujastyk did not do all this for personal gains. They themselves or their proxies can dictate whatever they want. The idea of INDOLOGY is so great that its matters should be decided in common (thank you for support) and rules should be discussed in public (not by sending individual letters of support to the "owner"). I think also it is very healthy to see connection between academic problems of indology and say problems of actual life. I think most members of the list would decide not to allow much freedom of speech on the list (judging by past voices) but let us at least agree(by voting) on rules and then possibly on people in charge of control of the list. I would vote for Dominik to be among them. Sorry my editor got broken, I cannot correct what I'm writing Lesl~aw Borowski From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Mon Feb 13 20:10:59 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:10:59 +0000 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018482.23782.13133753120377257725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> s._kalyanaraman writes: > I read with interest George Cordona's comment re: the earliest > Sanskrit term for canal/trench. There may well have been a number of terms. In Pali: At Dhs-a 269 mahaamaatikaa seems to be used (in a simile) to mean a 'great irrigation channel'. According to CPD udaka-magga means: 'a canal; the inlet and outlet of a tank'. > What are the other possible ancient terms for canal/trench? > Pkt. khalla, khAla = canal, creek, trench; Skt. khalla id.; kAl, kAlve > = water-course, channel, brook (Kannada); kAva = gutter; kAl-vA = > river mouth, irrigation channel (MalayALam); kAl, kAl-vAy = irrigation > channel (Tamil); kaZHi = ebbing brook (MalayALam), backwater (Tamil); > kaRna = canal (KonDa); karna = irrigation channel (Kuwi) Have you references to confirm khalla in Skt and Pkt ? Or do they only occur in lexical sources which may derive from the vernacular languages? Lance Cousins. MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Mon Feb 13 19:26:56 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 20:26:56 +0100 Subject: moderating not moderation Message-ID: <161227018477.23782.14805795180292293919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To C.Lopez: Do you think "netiquette" is only one,accepted by all and obvious to all? Lesl~aw Borowski From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Mon Feb 13 23:06:09 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 00:06:09 +0100 Subject: I agree: moderation Message-ID: <161227018486.23782.11744228709871680495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > A list to which one subscribes is not 'in public'. It is a private group of > individuals who subscribe on a specific set of terms. Usenet exists for the > purpose of the kind of open discussion you are suggesting. There is a public of indologists. 300 people is some sort of public. Usenet is not a public of indologists. > I have to pay a telephone charge This problem of yours touches me. I suggested some ways of making letters thiner. But not all academics are interested only in academic matters (of India) and not all academic matters of India are interesting for even staunch academics. You should allow people some freedom of speech and choose if you want or not to receive materials you don't like along with those you like, I think. >>That's why I think electronic communication should start forming >>democratic structures. > Fine, that's your opinion. Personally I would like there to be moderated lists to which I can subscribe for strictly academic discussion. Being academic doesn't mean being undemocratic. We could vote for some rules for the listand for people to organise voting or moderating the list according to accepted rules if we decided the list should be moderated. >Otherwise one is endlessly explaining elementary points to those who do not have the tools of scholarship to understand. Any examples from the past? "Elementary" often means "essential" and discussion of "elementary" things may proove revelatory. I do not mind even people asking for addresses. Let us help each other. If not let us allow to help others for us. > Anyone can start a new list. It is not true. To gather and keep so many indologists has been great effort of a small group of people and we should be very thankful to them. But making reforms is quite natural. >To say that other people should not have private listgroups >restricted in whatever way they choose would be about as > undemocratic as you can get. Are you really saying this? If the list were openly undemocratic it did not get much governamental or academical support of neither material nor moral nature. I don't think lists you call "private" could exists without public support. But maybe I'm wrong. Lesl~aw Borowski From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Tue Feb 14 03:21:53 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 03:21:53 +0000 Subject: always this self-referentiality... Message-ID: <161227018472.23782.3199198532052193069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, this posting will amount to an anachronism, for, given the statement it intends to make, it should never have been made in the first place. In the light of all these discussions on moderation etc., I have to admit that I am both sick and tired of the self-referentiality of the Net in general and mailing-lists in particular - a rough guess might show that more than half of a list's postings refer to technical aspects of the lists or the net, whereas maybe less than the other half refers to the subject the list was intended to cover. I personally find moderation helpful, insofar as it eliminates further discussions about moderation in principle and lets people go back to what they "really" want to discuss. (Side-remark: I find the H-NET-moderators simply the best, for they are generally both competent and inobtrusive) But then, others might not, so let's do that vote, for christ's sake, and go back to normal and discuss all those really exciting matters which await our attention "out there". Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima P.S.: I am STILL working on my Tibetan/Buddhist/Indic Studies- resource-directory, and the BIG BLANK so far is e-texts. I would gladly appreciate anybody who has down-loaded ANY e-texts from ANY site to mail me. From TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl Tue Feb 14 02:28:09 1995 From: TANTRAPL at ramzes.umcs.lublin.pl (Leslaw Borowski) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 03:28:09 +0100 Subject: aayurvedaca kaas~miiras~aivaca Message-ID: <161227018493.23782.17034503525865108614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote to me he didn't think there were many links between kaas~miiras~aiva and aayurveda with the exception of mantracikitsa and rases~vara. I expressed unfounded guess there are many enough. I had some intuition based, I think, on connecting Shiva via yoga (and saam-khya) with aayurveda. Division of "yogasuutran_i" into 4 parts resembles division of some aayurvedic books. I think there is a chapter on "the nervous system of the Tantra" in Dasgupta's "History of Indian Philosophy", but the meaning of "tantra" in this context may be not very specific. I remember now Profesor Shukla from BHU said he was combining his research on medicine with work on Kashmir Shaivism, (if I remember it right).Does anybody know more about his work? I know the notion of s~akti is present in "carakasam_hitaa" as well as "bhuuta" and "rasa" (so much stressed upon by Abhinavagupta). In "aayurvedadiipikaa" (VI.3,177-185) there is an opinion that s~akti is operating in unaccountable ways (which sounds similar to KS's phrases. Sus~ruta describes saam-khya theory first and then says that according to medical science the causes of things are svabhaava, iis~vara, kaala, yaddr_cchaa, niyati svabhaava, iisvara, kaala, yaddr_cchaa, niyati and parin_aama. Some of the categories resemble prima facie those of KS. Can anybody comment on their meanings? {I also heard of "kaas~miirapaat_hu" in Caraka but it's rather unpleasent. Still - some trace of medical ideas in Kashmir} Could somebody add anything? Lesl~aw Borowski Just in case anybody got interested in my way of writing Sanskrit words: those long vowels which have a diacritic mark attached to them in the international transcription are rendered by doubling single vowels (it's very convenient - the same finger twice); upper diacritic marks - upper stroke (except for n~, almost like Spanish, and s~, almost like Polish); lower diacritic mark - lower stroke. Division of words by division mark / . Deleted part - by % . You can use it both on a typewriter and a computer keyboard. From magier at columbia.edu Tue Feb 14 11:38:08 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 06:38:08 -0500 Subject: ["Afroz N. Taj" : UVA's New Semester-In-India program] Message-ID: <161227018498.23782.472865793468317219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded to your list from The South Asia Gopher. I apologize for any reposting. Please contact the Center at Virginia directly for further information. David Magier SAG --------------- February 11, 1995 To: Colleagues in South Asian Studies From: David G. White, Director, University of Virginia Semester-in-India Program Dear Colleague, In the course of the next two weeks, we will be sending many of you a poster advertising the Semester-in-India Program that the University of Virginia will initiate in Jodhpur in August-December of this year (1995). The program will be open to all third- and fourth-year students currently enrolled in American universities. Fifteen students will be admitted to the program, at a program cost of $3500 per student (which includes round trip travel from Washington D.C. to Jodhpur, all tuition, fees, and tutoring expenses, full room and board, and a living and travel allowance). Students on the program will receive 8-10 hours per week of Hindi-language instruction, and 3 hours per week of instruction in Rajasthani culture and civilization. Courses will be taught by Indian faculty and staff, at the Program site and possibly at the University of Jodhpur (this is presently being negotiated). In addition, students will carry out independent research projects on topics of their choice, under the guidance of Indian research staff. Students may earn a total of 15 credits for this program of study. We are very excited about this Program, which will be housed in a 4000 square foot area of the massive Fort of Jodhpur, in two wings constructed in the 1940s by the former Maharaja to house guests at his wedding to a princess of Baroda. The two wings are in excellent condition, with full electric and plumbing facilities in place. They are located at the highest point in the Fort, and offer breathtaking views of the old city and the desert beyond. Because we were unable to conclude our negotiations with the administration of the Fort Trust, the University of Jodhpur, etc. until last month, it was impossible for us to announce this program prior to the present time. The deadline for the submission of applications is May 1, 1995. We therefore urge you to announce our program to your students as soon as possible. Application materials and an information booklet will be sent upon request. To order such materials, please call the Center for South Asian Studies at (804) 924-8815 or e-mail me at dgw6b at uva.pcmail.Virginia.edu. Thank your for your kind attention. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Tue Feb 14 07:55:16 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 07:55:16 +0000 Subject: s. kalyanaraman's note on 'canal' etyma Message-ID: <161227018489.23782.2297844149002749078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Cordona seems to imply that reliance on etyma is somehow less definitive than textual quotes. I submit that ancient tongues like Kuwi or Kui may not boast of a BrhadaaraNyaka Upanishad; but the lexical evidence in many such languages which constitute the lingua franca of the sub-continent cannot be dismissed lightly. I agree with Prof. Cordona that the texts he has cited do lend credence to the semantics of kulyaa to connote also a canal. I have advanced a general theory of semantics: in simple terms, this means that, in a social contract, the morphemes expand in meaning as life experience becomes richer. Thus, when a kulyaa or a pond is also used as a collecting point for drawing irrigation canals into the fields, the morpheme kulyaa could as well have expanded semantically to connote a canal. The lexicons do attest more than one meaning to the term kulyaa (e.g. ditch, trench, canal). For e.g., kaDagu, kaDangu also connote a small channel issuing from a larger one and leading water e.g. to a plantain tree; a channel, a ditch, a trench (Kannada); but, cf. kaDa to cross, cross channel cut through ridge of paddy field to let surplus water run off (Tamil); khaddhaa pit, ditch (Maithili); gaaRa hole (Oriya); khaaRo pit, bog (Marathi); khaal hollow, gutter, inlet (Punjabi)' xar hole (Gypsy); gaR ditch, hole in a husking machine (Bengali); garaaD pit, ditch (Gujarati); khaDDii hole for a weaver's feet (Punjabi). The point I am making is that when a number of languages spread across the vast sub-continent attest to a social semantic contract for a morpheme and enshrine such morphemes in epigraphs, and social usage, we should pay attention to those alternative morphemes also and not rely only on 'literary texts'. This is particularly important when we are dealing with such down-to-earth living issues such as 'irrigation canals' which may not be all that exciting to literateurs or philosophers. s.kalyanaraman. From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Tue Feb 14 14:30:41 1995 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 09:30:41 -0500 Subject: aayurvedaca kaas~miiras~aivaca Message-ID: <161227018499.23782.7444745651468271694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr Borowski expressed his hunch that there might have been some connection between Ayurveda and Kashmir Shaivism. In the first instance, I woould like to see more precisely (i.e., textually) the basis for his hunches. Secondly, I can report briefly on a conversation I recently had with P.V. Sharma centering around the origins and influences in Ayurveda. He was of the opinion that two clear influences can be traced in the Samhitas. This first is Buddhist or Shramanic; and the second is Tantric. Concerning the second, he pointed to the evolution of the kalpas from the manipulation over time of vishas or poisons. I might add to his comments, the development of a medical physiology of vital breaths (pranas) in the medical literature derived from a long tradition using breath in techniques of meditation and speculations about the micro-macro cosmic significance of breath/air. K.G. Zysk From RQ021RE%TCUAMUS.BITNET at cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Tue Feb 14 15:57:25 1995 From: RQ021RE%TCUAMUS.BITNET at cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (Andrew Fort) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 09:57:25 -0600 Subject: nature of list Message-ID: <161227018507.23782.12661910598273352681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope the moderators continue to use a relatively light hand. The variety of voices and subjects is valuable-- from etymology to certain political issues. It is interesting to see new members join as old ones leave, or get burned out. Then again, I don't have to pay by the message. BTW, doesn't Paul Tillich's "ground of being" sound vaguely Buddhist? *NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS* Andrew O. Fort, Religion Dept. A.FORT at TCU.EDU Texas Christian University Fort Worth TX 76129 From lnelson at teetot.acusd.edu Tue Feb 14 18:21:15 1995 From: lnelson at teetot.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 10:21:15 -0800 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018517.23782.10798662743190213605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since everyone is busy discussing the momentous issue of moderation, I thought this might be a good time to ask a question that, however dumb, relates to the actual subject matter of the list. I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something more like "world." So, my question is: What is the correct translation for the noun "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages? Is there a word, such as "punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Feb 14 18:29:14 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 10:29:14 -0800 Subject: vote? Message-ID: <161227018518.23782.8765566215372609155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste Gentlemen: If there is a vote, I vote for, open discussions, no moderation. Aum Shanti Sadhunathan From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Tue Feb 14 10:45:39 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 10:45:39 +0000 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018494.23782.14160435058652819842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Lance Cousins; the Pali citation is fascinating: mahaamaatikaa connoting a great irrigation channel. Concordant phonemes: maTai small sluice of channel or stream, hole, shutters of a sluice, channel (Tamil); floodgate (Malayalam); maDa small opening out of a channel into a field. I don't know how to interpret udaka-magga = canal; cf. maDugu pond, basin, pool (Telugu). For references on Pkt. khalla, I cited only lexemes; for more, cf. Turner CDIAL 3849. s. kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: A. Villarroel's query Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 14/02/1995 10:23 AM s._kalyanaraman writes: > I read with interest George Cordona's comment re: the earliest > Sanskrit term for canal/trench. There may well have been a number of terms. In Pali: At Dhs-a 269 mahaamaatikaa seems to be used (in a simile) to mean a 'great irrigation channel'. According to CPD udaka-magga means: 'a canal; the inlet and outlet of a tank'. > What are the other possible ancient terms for canal/trench? > Pkt. khalla, khAla = canal, creek, trench; Skt. khalla id.; kAl, kAlve > = water-course, channel, brook (Kannada); kAva = gutter; kAl-vA = > river mouth, irrigation channel (MalayALam); kAl, kAl-vAy = irrigation > channel (Tamil); kaZHi = ebbing brook (MalayALam), backwater (Tamil); > kaRna = canal (KonDa); karna = irrigation channel (Kuwi) Have you references to confirm khalla in Skt and Pkt ? Or do they only occur in lexical sources which may derive from the vernacular languages? Lance Cousins. MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu Tue Feb 14 17:14:53 1995 From: RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu (RABE at vaxd.sxu.edu) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 11:14:53 -0600 Subject: voting "YES" for a moderated list Message-ID: <161227018504.23782.3000043528890863687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Yes", please CONTINUE to moderate the Indolody list, thank you very much Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University Chicago From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Feb 14 19:27:39 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 11:27:39 -0800 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018522.23782.8190548006645006794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would agree that it is wrong to translate reincarnation/rebirth as saMsAra. Etymologically, there is no doubt a connection, but in terms of usage, I very much doubt the effectiveness of the translation. "punarjanma" is in fact used quite often, but it carries with it an implied reference to "punarmaraNa" - redeath, if you will. "saMsAra" as used in a Vedantic context is probably better understood as worldly life, not just the world. The material, external world is never called saMsAra, to the best of my knowledge. S. Vidyasankar From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 14 21:25:28 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:25:28 -0800 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018532.23782.11165275388394228490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that words like jaati, janman, etc., even without the punar, are in fact the equivalent, or "correct translation," of English "reincarnation", and are so used, at least in Sanskrit. Etymologically they mean just 'birth' or 'incarnation', but since all incarnation is reincarnation, it comes to the same thing. Richard Salomon Univ. of Washington On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Lance Nelson wrote: > Since everyone is busy discussing the momentous issue of moderation, I > thought this might be a good time to ask a question that, however dumb, > relates to the actual subject matter of the list. > > I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is > given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice > that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something > more like "world." So, my question is: What is the correct translation > for the noun "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in > Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages? Is there a word, such as > "punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without > reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? > > --------------------------- > Lance Nelson > Religious Studies > University of San Diego > lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu > --------------------------- > > > > > From magier at columbia.edu Tue Feb 14 19:40:47 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 14:40:47 -0500 Subject: voting "YES" for a moderated list Message-ID: <161227018523.23782.9228435996624838250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > YES, I would like this list to be moderated. In case a vote turns out to matter, I second this motion. Or, better, I VOTE likewise. David Magier From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Tue Feb 14 21:00:00 1995 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:00:00 -0600 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018528.23782.11786020226174409086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"saMsAra" as used in a Vedantic context is probably better understood as >worldly life, not just the world. The material, external world is never >called saMsAra, to the best of my knowledge. > This is correct, in a Vedantic sense. However, the word "sansaar" is used in Hindi to refer to the material, external world. And if I might add in a query of my own - is there a connection between the term 'SaMsaara' used to denote worldly life and attachment in Vedanta, and the term 'SaMsaaraM' as used in Tamil, where it means "wife" ? I presume there is, but I'd like to find out for sure, anyway. [This question is asked seriously and is not a (feeble) attempt to inject humour into this discussion.] Srinivas From brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca Tue Feb 14 20:37:36 1995 From: brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca (J.K. Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:37:36 -0500 Subject: Moderation Message-ID: <161227018525.23782.16055127147747305884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In view of Dominik's request that the subject of moderation be discontinued, it seems clear that he himself does not wish to himself take up the job. The majority opinion seems to favour the option. Ergo, we need volunteers for the position of moderator? From brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca Tue Feb 14 20:49:58 1995 From: brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca (J.K. Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:49:58 -0500 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018527.23782.10143511029708247096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> saMsAra certainly does not exclusively refer to reincarnation, but the implication of rebirth is included in that of worldly life. In modern languages of India (particularly Bengali and Hindi, with which I am more familiar), saMsAra has a much more pleasant familial sense, just as mAyA sas the sense of affection and love, both quite different from the slant on these terms found in the Vedantists. But you are quite right, there does not seem to be a simple word in the modern vernaculars which carries quite the scholarly tone of *metempsychosis* or even *reincarnation*. The Gita has dehAntaraprApti and AvRtti (8.23) or puranAvRtti. By implication also from apunarbhava is punarbhava. =.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.= Jan Brzezinski Asian Studies Centre University of Manitoba =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= From suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com Tue Feb 14 21:19:39 1995 From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:19:39 -0500 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018530.23782.17843065955019945972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is > given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice > that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something > more like "world." > So, my question is: What is the correct translation for the noun > "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in Sanskrit, Hindi, > and other Indian languages? As a person who indulges talking about language without any formal training, I use this samsaaram as an example of how the same sanskrit word gets different connotation in different vernaculars. In telugu it is primarily used to mean family, in tamil it is used to refer to wife, in malayalam my friends say it means "chat" (can somebody confirm?). In Hindi (and also in Sanskrit) I believe, it is used to mean world, worldily existence. Any such examples? Regards, Suresh. ? suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com ? From suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com Tue Feb 14 22:04:37 1995 From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 17:04:37 -0500 Subject: Etymology of the word - kundanam ? Message-ID: <161227018534.23782.18053217306887810273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A while ago, I posted this query, but never seemed to have reached here. I am interested to know the etymology of the word kundanam. In telugu, it is used in the meaning of gold. I am not very sure whether it is a Sanskrit word or not, though I have North Indian friends, named as kundan. I think that this word has no connection to the sanskrit word "kunda (meaning jasmine)", but would be glad to be clarified by the pundits. My friend's daughter is named kundana, and I promised him that I would find out the etymology of this word. -- Regards, Suresh. suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com From Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr Tue Feb 14 16:12:01 1995 From: Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 17:12:01 +0100 Subject: voting "YES" for a moderated list Message-ID: <161227018501.23782.15156510728334018127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know that no vote has been started and I know that the founder of INDOLOGY (Dominik) has not volunteered to moderate it (he seemed to think it would be time-consuming), but since the idea appears to be on the air, I feel like giving my opinion. So many reasons have been mentionned that I do not believe any good one can be added. So, YES, I would like this list to be moderated. From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Tue Feb 14 16:51:11 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 17:51:11 +0100 Subject: moderating rules Message-ID: <161227018503.23782.3276435714241717080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of indology some of us (including me) have suggested to stop lengthy discussions on moderating yes/no and simply to organize some vote on it. Others, then, suggested we should first decide on rules how to moderate the list. O.K. Let's start suggesting, please, those who have some ideas what as to what should be not let through to all list members, write them. Then those interested may discuss them (SHORTLY please). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) I personally suggest not to let through: one of the messages which appear twice (why do they?) subscribe/unsubscribe requests messages containing only the FAQ's queries about addresses if these are in the Directory of South Asia Scolars (for the last 3 mentioned the moderator should have standard reply-files prepared to send them directly to the asking person) automatical confirmations of receiving a message messages longer than some number of lines (say 200 ??) these messages should be only announced (brief description of content) as available by some ftp, gopher, or via email from the author As for the size to be let through - it might be more for what the moderator decides is clearly connected with the topic of the list and less lines for the opposite. (So the moderator would not "prohibit" some non-indological messages but would announce their availability if they are too long - this is important for us who have quotas and those who pay for bytes of postings) 2) And some general rules should be simply accepted by the members (and included in the subscribers file): When replying to a posting which has been posted quite recently one should not copy the original message, or, at least, one should spend the few minutes necessary for finding only the crucial lines in the original message which are only to be copied. When asking something what is not sure to interest all the others one should includ his own e-mail address to be replied to. (Anyway I think that most e-mail software has the option to read message with complete header where author's address is included - I do it by clicking H instead of enter to display message) And those who reply should think about their reply whether it is to be sent privately or to the list. The originator of the question may again be asked privately by somebody else to send replies to him too. (He may also post a shortened version of all that has been replied) Thanks for reply and negative emotions should be sent only to that particular person. etc. etc. Please do add other suggestions, argue (briefly) against these of mine and let's finish quickly this discussion by organizing a vote (please Dominik, would you do it somehow? For those who want democracy: possibly we might vote every several years if we like the rules and "behaviour" of the moderator. (But this seems to me superfluous, I'd prefer to vote once) Jakub Cejka -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (this message had 67 lines before posting) From alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de Tue Feb 14 17:13:39 1995 From: alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de (alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 18:13:39 +0100 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018509.23782.17043372436657296826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Cousins, Thanks for your comment, I will check the Athakatha. The word udaka occurs also in Dh. 6.80 as 'udakara'n hi nayanti nettika ...' . Regards, Alfredo Villarroel From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Tue Feb 14 08:35:34 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 18:35:34 +1000 Subject: moderating not moderation Message-ID: <161227018496.23782.17997259109098185907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A discussion on Paul Tillich on Buddhism would be most appropriate and informative, in the critico-comparative interest. Or, when discussing Plato and Platonism, should one be debarred from making reference to Arabic thinkers such as Avicenna, Averroes, down to say Al-Ghazzali, and elsewhere to Maimonides and Spinoza? On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Carlos Lopez wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Leslaw Borowski wrote: > > > To C.Lopez: Do you think "netiquette" is only one,accepted by all and > > obvious to all? Lesl~aw Borowski > > > > > I would expect so. One doesn't join a list on Buddhism and then start a > discussion on Paul Tillich. The topics of most list are clearly > demarcated. Perhaps, this list should go about demarcating more clearly > what classical indology means. Once this is clear to everyone, then > netiquette for this list would be clear. I am certain that everyone here > would be quite vocal if someone began a discussion on Church History; a > topic which is clearly outside of the confines of this list. Again, > "classical Indology" should be further defined and clarified. > > Carlos Lopez > Harvard University > Dept of Sanskrit > > > From n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de Tue Feb 14 18:57:13 1995 From: n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de (n.rao at rz.uni-sb.de) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 19:57:13 +0100 Subject: voting "YES" for a moderated list Message-ID: <161227018520.23782.4727619259172104269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I ... >So, YES, I would like this list to be moderated. > > I too narahari > Dr. B. Narahari Rao F.R. 5.1. Philosophie Unversitaet des Saarlandes, Postfach 15 11 50, D-66041 Saarbr?cken From jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Tue Feb 14 21:58:33 1995 From: jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dr. Julia Leslie) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 21:58:33 +0000 Subject: Symposium on Indian Religion Message-ID: <161227018511.23782.12331292391156654861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For information: The Twentieth Symposium on Indian Religions -- henceforth to be called the Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions -- 31st March - 2 April 1995 -- The Cherwell Centre, 16 Norham Gardens, Oxford Papers will include: Karel Werner: The philosophy of religion from the perspective of Indian religions Ninian Smart: Hinduism as an offshoot of Buddhism David Bastow: Time and Sarvastivadins Julius Lipner: Ancient Banyan: An inquiry into the nature of Hinduness Jackie Hirst: Images of Sankara: Interpreting the other Christopher Aslett: Images of the feminine in Indian Art Lynn Thomas: Women in the Mahabharata John Hinnells: An Indian MP: Bhownagree (1895-1905), Politician and Zoroastrian. The programme I have to hand does not include the name of the convenor. Can anyone on the list add this vital piece of information?! -- Dr Julia Leslie | Email: jleslie at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Tel: +91-80-843-5320 | NB: if you have or -5249 | trouble mailing | to this address, | try: j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk | [Do Not send to: jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in] From jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Tue Feb 14 22:10:23 1995 From: jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dr. Julia Leslie) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 22:10:23 +0000 Subject: Lectureship in Hinduism Message-ID: <161227018514.23782.1481295242958271477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For information: A Lectureship in Hinduism or Religion and Gender is currently being advertised in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Leeds, England. This post is available from 1 September 1995 for a fixed period of 3 years. The appointee will take a major responsibility for the teaching of either Hinduism or Religion and Gender Studies and contribute to some other significant areas within the wide range of the Department's concerns, such as interreligious issues, interfaith theology and the relation of religion, theology and development studies. Applicants should be active researchers and effective publishers in a relevant field of study and be ready to participate creatively in developing the departmental interaction between theology, biblical studies and religious studies. Salary will be on the scale for Lecturer Grade A ( 14,756 - 19,326) according to qualifications and relevant experience. For exceptionally well qualified candidates, appointment at Lecturer Grade B ( 20,133 - 25,735) may be considered. Informal enquiries about the post may be made to Professor H. Willmer - tel: 0532-333640, fax: 0532-333654, email: i.lawrie at leeds.ac.uk Application forms and further particulars may be obtained from the Personnel Offie (Academic Section), The University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT. Tel:0532-335771, email:j.m.cox at registry.leeds.ac.uk quoting reference number 19/14. Closing date for applications: 17 Feb 1995. -- Dr Julia Leslie | Email: jleslie at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Tel: +91-80-843-5320 | NB: if you have or -5249 | trouble mailing | to this address, | try: j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk | [Do Not send to: jleslie at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in] From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Tue Feb 14 22:17:56 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 22:17:56 +0000 Subject: Moderation Message-ID: <161227018513.23782.9076977625187721651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please don't discuss moderation any more. Thank you. Dominik From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 15 07:53:13 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 07:53:13 +0000 Subject: Soma in the veda - Part 5 Message-ID: <161227018536.23782.10028109991754147586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: soma: glue, juice or alchemy? Why is soma referred to as rasa? Is it a glue or juice of a plant or a metal extract? The following etyma may throw some light, re-inforcing the decipherment of soma as electrum (silver-gold ore): rasa = juice of soma and the like (RV viii.3.20: indriyo rasah: 'rasaatmakomrtamayah somah'; sacrificial drink RV i.71.5: mahe yat pitra ii rasam 'havih'; essence RV v.43.4 madhvo rasam; rasaa moisture, flood ((RV ix.97.14); rasin = sharp soma: rasavaan somah. One of several meanings of the term 'rasa' in Pali (apart from taste, sensual stimulus, sentiment): fine substance, semi-solid semi-liquid substance, extract; thus paThavii rasa = essence of earth; pabbata rasa = mountain extract, rock-substance; suvaNNa rasa = gold dust. rasaain = substance (e.g. wax or lac) put in the joint of a water-vessel to prevent it leaking (Nepali); rahan = varnish (Assamese); rasaan = ingredients in working metals (Bengali); rasaaNa = substances for polishing metals (Oriya); rasyuuNo = to solder (Kumaoni); rasaaunu id. (Nepalii); rasvu~ id. (Gujarati); rasaavvu~ = to gild (Gujarati); rassu = juice, essence (KonkaNi). rasa s~aastram = science of alchemy; rasa s~odhanah = borax, purification of mercury; rasa siddha = skilled in alchemy; rasa siddhih = skill in alchemy; rasa sindhuuram = a cinnabar made of zinc, mercury, blue vitriol and nitre; rasaayanam = alchemy or chemistry; rasa indrah = mercury; the philosopher's stone the touch of which is said to turn iron into gold (Sanskrit) ?racatam silver (Tamil) = rajata (Sanskrit); iraca vaadam = transmuting baser metals into gold; alchemy (Tamil); iraca lingam = red suophurate of mercury (Tamil) [The reference to rasa indrah 'philosopher's stone' is intriguing; could indrah have meant such a 'commodity'? It will be interesting to search through the semantics of 'indra' words in many languages, to unravel the 'indra' metaphor further.] The common semantic strand associating 'rasa' and alchemy in many languages attest to the possible, ancient meaning of 'soma rasa' as 'metallurgical extract of electrum'. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 15 08:03:43 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:03:43 +0000 Subject: A. Villarroel's query Message-ID: <161227018538.23782.10673015711681098635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Lance Cousins raises a very valid point that lexical sources may derive from vernacular languages (this evokes the 'bhaaSaa' reference attributed to PaaNini!). I agree that it will certainly be useful to give Pkt. and Skt. references. Let me attempt to present some cognate etyma and references which I can readily lay my hands on. A semantic cluster may be presented with the following examples: kaal = irrigation channel; streamlet; cf. carayuvum palakaalinOTiyum (Kampa-raamaayaNam. NaaTTup. 60; Tamil); kaalaankarai = inlet to lands, lakes etc. (Tamil. local usage); kaalaaRu = rivulet, stream (tEvaaram. 1227,3; Tamil); kaLan = natural reservoir of water (Tamil); gaLati, galati (Pali.Skt.) = to drip, flow, trickle (Vinaya. I.204); to drop down, to fall (DhammapadaAnguttara II.146: suriyo majjhaTThaanato galito; gaLayati = to drip, to drop: assukaani gaLayati, to shed tears (Suttanipaata 691); cf. quellan = to well up (Old High German); galdaa = trickling, channel, stream, brook (Rigveda viii.1.20 : maa tvaa somasya galdayaa 'gaalanenaasraavaNena' = Taittiriiya Samhita iii.1.11.7; kros~ati gardaa 'channel', brook; maa vis~antvindava aa galdaa dhamaneenaam 'channels'; cf. galaa = throat (Atharva veda vi.83.3; kalinga vaariyam (South Indian Temple Inscriptions) = Tamil, committee looking after the sluice; gardaa = water-course, brook, channel (Taittiriiya Samhitaa iii.1.11.8); cf. Turner, CDIAL 3849 khalla trench, creek, canal etc.; khaala inlet (Oriya); khaaL channel, gutter (MaraaThi) and links with karta = hole (Rigveda); gaDDA = hole (Praakrt). duni gaDa, nali gaDa = a water channel; gaDa, khana = trench; khandha = fire trench (Santali); khaNi, khaNye = channel in the fields; trench; khandok, khandokaa = deep trench; but, cf. daryaakuL, daryaakuLaa = mouth of a river, estuary (an apparent refernce to a pool of water from which the stream emanates?) (KonkaNi); kallola = large wave, billow; kallolinii = a river: svarloka kallolini tvam paapam tirayaadhunaa mama bhavavyaalaa valiiDhaatmanah (Gangaa Laharii, 50). cf. Rgveda ii.28.5: khaa = fountain, well; sa raayaskhaamupa srjaa grNaanah 'nadiinaamaitat'; khaamrtasya 'nadeem'. Lexemes of South Asian languages are an important source of information on patterns of semantic evolution in many spoken tongues (bhaaSaa) across the sub-continent. It may also be reasonable to assume that many of these lexemes are authenticated by lexicographers by linguistic surveys and texts. It is, of course, arguable that some information may be lost by translations: e.g., the English 'meaning' for the technical term: 'trench' may evoke variant 'images' in an English-speaker and in a Tamil-speaker (say as a trench around a fort or as a dug inlet to a field). The common phonemic-strand across the kaal etc. morphemes in many tongues, can be discerned: the core phonemic consonants may be : kh, l In the neural networks formed by the south asian-semantic-social-contract, the phonemes are likely to evoke the 'picture or image' of a flowing body of water. It is an axiom in general semantics that 'meaning' is a deep language structure of the brain, linked to phonemes and images, re-inforced (and evolved or expanded) by a semantic-social-contract, i.e., by life-experiences, by use and common acceptance in the lingua franca. There are enormous pit-falls when linguists try to 'date' a morpheme and its semantics based exclusively on 'written texts'(particularly in situations, when the dates of texts are also doubtful). Perhaps, the sign > used in lexicons (to connote 'derived from') should be sparingly used; to complement text-based semantic analyses, it may be appropriate to draw upon discernible, common, comparative, phonemic and semantic strands/structures/clusters across languages. s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: A. Villarroel's query Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 14/02/1995 10:23 AM s._kalyanaraman writes: > I read with interest George Cordona's comment re: the earliest > Sanskrit term for canal/trench. There may well have been a number of terms. In Pali: At Dhs-a 269 mahaamaatikaa seems to be used (in a simile) to mean a 'great irrigation channel'. According to CPD udaka-magga means: 'a canal; the inlet and outlet of a tank'. > What are the other possible ancient terms for canal/trench? > Pkt. khalla, khAla = canal, creek, trench; Skt. khalla id.; kAl, kAlve > = water-course, channel, brook (Kannada); kAva = gutter; kAl-vA = > river mouth, irrigation channel (MalayALam); kAl, kAl-vAy = irrigation > channel (Tamil); kaZHi = ebbing brook (MalayALam), backwater (Tamil); > kaRna = canal (KonDa); karna = irrigation channel (Kuwi) Have you references to confirm khalla in Skt and Pkt ? Or do they only occur in lexical sources which may derive from the vernacular languages? Lance Cousins. MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com Wed Feb 15 13:29:53 1995 From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:29:53 -0500 Subject: Etymology of the word - kundanam ? Message-ID: <161227018545.23782.4108475776281953708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Mr. Suresh; let me attempt to provide a few semantic/phonemic leads.. > kundanamu is a very specific goldsmithy, technical term which means [good stuff deleted] Thanks to Sree. S.Kalyanaraman for such an elaborate and quick reply. So, this word appears as a pure dravidian word. But, the fact that that even in Hindi and Marathi 'kundan' is associated with 'jewelry' or gold led me to assume a sanskrit derivation. Any clarifications as to how this word got into Hindi and Marathi ? Thanks, Suresh. From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Wed Feb 15 08:47:09 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:47:09 +0000 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018565.23782.5843385415545251983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Nelson said: > Is there a word, such as > "punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without > reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? Yes, punarjanma and punarbhava are both used frequently in this sense. Dominik From dran at cs.albany.edu Wed Feb 15 13:50:14 1995 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:50:14 -0500 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018547.23782.9903464394321751548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) > in malayalam my friends say it means "chat" (can somebody confirm?). Yes, this is true. Narendran From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Feb 15 14:53:38 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 08:53:38 -0600 Subject: Search for address: Olivelle Message-ID: <161227018553.23782.11820760317905144969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick Olivelle Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Wed Feb 15 14:17:35 1995 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:17:35 -0500 Subject: Search for address Message-ID: <161227018550.23782.16381890363946554612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mikael Aktor wrote: > > Can anyone help me find the address of Patrick Olivelle, the editor of > medieval texts on renunciation and author of several articles on > renunciation and the asrama institution, etc. In 1993 he seemed to be at > Indiana University, Bloomington, but a search in the IUB Gopher gives no > result. > > Greetings > Mikael Aktor, Institute for History of Religions, University of Copenhagen. > E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk > > Patrick Olivelle is now a professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the director of its Center for Asian Studies. His email address is jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu. -- Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Feb 15 14:22:20 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018555.23782.15643666808134759034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On saMsAra: Marathi indeed uses the term "punarjanma" for reincarnation. The word "saMsAra" in many modern languages does not have its classical meaning. In Hindi it refers to 'the world', while in Marathi it refers to the household or affairs of the household. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Lance Nelson wrote: > Since everyone is busy discussing the momentous issue of moderation, I > thought this might be a good time to ask a question that, however dumb, > relates to the actual subject matter of the list. > > I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is > given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice > that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something > more like "world." So, my question is: What is the correct translation > for the noun "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in > Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages? Is there a word, such as > "punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without > reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? > > --------------------------- > Lance Nelson > Religious Studies > University of San Diego > lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu > --------------------------- > > > > > From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 15 14:46:58 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:46:58 -0500 Subject: Search for address Message-ID: <161227018557.23782.5155930169467740813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Can anyone help me find the address of Patrick Olivelle, the editor of > medieval texts on renunciation and author of several articles on > renunciation and the asrama institution, etc. In 1993 he seemed to be at > Indiana University, Bloomington, but a search in the IUB Gopher gives no > result. I have his address as: University of Texas Center for Asian Studies 1314 Thaddeus Cove Austin, Texas 78746 USA David Magier From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 15 10:17:27 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 10:17:27 +0000 Subject: saMsAra Message-ID: <161227018540.23782.10332801230155529044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The root is perhaps, sR. sarayatE = begins to flow (Rgveda); saarun = to transport gradually from one place to another (e.g. grain from threshing floor to house), collect (Kashmiri); saarNo = to convey, transplant, separate grain from dirt (Kumaoni); saarnu = to move (Nepali). In classical Skt. there is an apparent, abrupt semantic expansion; cf. MaitraayaNi Upanishad: saMsAra = undergoing transmigration; Manu: secular life, the world; Pali, Pkt.: the round of birth and death; Sinhala: sasara = transmigration; Hindi: sa~sArA = the world; but cf. sara = going (PaaNini). I suppose that when a reference to secular life is made by someone to a married person, in colloquial Tamil, saMsAram does certainly connote 'family' (hence, 'your wife'; this may be a polite way of avoiding saying the blunt, perhaps uncivil, directness: 'your wife'! It is analogous to saying: 'my wife is in the family way' as a substitute for: 'my wife is pregnant'.) To revert to saMsAra: if a philosophical proposition exists propounding 'a cyclical continuum or motion of births and deaths', theories of transmigration cannot be far behind. s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Wed Feb 15 14:37:32 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 14:37:32 +0000 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018548.23782.9661421718001696998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Nelson writes: >I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is >given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice >that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something >more like "world." So, my question is: What is the correct translation >for the noun "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in >Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages? Is there a word, such as >"punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without >reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? In Pali and many Buddhist Sanskrit texts punabhava, etc. is far and away the commonest term for reincarnation, although pa.tisandhi is the technical term for the actual moment of 'relinking' at the beginning of a given life-process. Richard Salomon writes: It seems to me that words like jaati, janman, etc., even without the punar, are in fact the equivalent, or "correct translation," of English "reincarnation", and are so used, at least in Sanskrit. Etymologically they mean just 'birth' or 'incarnation', but since all incarnation is reincarnation, it comes to the same thing. I don't think I quite agree with this. Of course jaati, etc. are very common e.g. in pubbajaati and the like, but it seems to me that this is the equivalent of the English usage with 'life': 'in a past life' and the like. So this is only the equivalent of the (not very correct?) English usage: 'in a (past) reincarnation'. It does not correspond to the usage of reincarnation for the process of rebirth in general. Lance Cousins. MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk Wed Feb 15 13:46:13 1995 From: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 14:46:13 +0100 Subject: Search for address Message-ID: <161227018543.23782.1722531933876208630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me find the address of Patrick Olivelle, the editor of medieval texts on renunciation and author of several articles on renunciation and the asrama institution, etc. In 1993 he seemed to be at Indiana University, Bloomington, but a search in the IUB Gopher gives no result. Greetings Mikael Aktor, Institute for History of Religions, University of Copenhagen. E-mail: aktor at coco.ihi.ku.dk From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 15 15:01:03 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 15:01:03 +0000 Subject: Etymology of the word - kundanam ? Message-ID: <161227018541.23782.2104362785151792916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Suresh; let me attempt to provide a few semantic/phonemic leads.. kundanamu is a very specific goldsmithy, technical term which means 'setting precious stones with fine gold (Telugu); kuntanam = interspace for setting gems in a jewel (Tamil). The associated 'imagery' may be drawn from a concordant phoneme: kundene, kundi = rim of stone or other material placed upon a mortar to prevent spilling of rice, etc. (Telugu) The key semantic substructure seems to be related to 'keeping the contents in place, while beating'. The goldsmith performs a similar function when he uses kundanamu (fine gold in thin foils used for setting precious stones) or does a kundanamu (sets the jewel in place using the gold foil like a rim round a mortar). It is also relatable to two sets of etyma: (1) kund- (kunt-) to punch with fist, pierce with spear (Pengo); kund to pierce, prod (ManDa); (2) kuntu having sat down (Kannada); squatting (Tamil) [perhaps similar semantically to 'to set down or 'seat' (a precious stone) in a small hole {cf. kuttu = very small hole (Tulu)}'] s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Etymology of the word - kundanam ? Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 15/02/1995 9:19 AM A while ago, I posted this query, but never seemed to have reached here. I am interested to know the etymology of the word kundanam. In telugu, it is used in the meaning of gold. I am not very sure whether it is a Sanskrit word or not, though I have North Indian friends, named as kundan. I think that this word has no connection to the sanskrit word "kunda (meaning jasmine)", but would be glad to be clarified by the pundits. My friend's daughter is named kundana, and I promised him that I would find out the etymology of this word. -- Regards, Suresh. suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Wed Feb 15 20:29:04 1995 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 15:29:04 -0500 Subject: information requested Message-ID: <161227018563.23782.16148666570094512356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate the names of the directors and their address of the following: 1. Maharaja Mansing Pustak Prakash, Jodhpur 2. Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Jodhpur Many thanks in advance, Ken Zysk From tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl Wed Feb 15 16:06:42 1995 From: tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl (tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 17:06:42 +0100 Subject: break in discussion Message-ID: <161227018559.23782.4752439344663024503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I got an information from Dominik Wujastyk that discussion on "meta" subjects of the democracy and free speech on discussion lists cannot continue on INDOLOGY. I'm thinking of organizing it somehow but of course in some other form. Maybe "owners" and moderators of the list would agree to present after some time a list of constructive proposals. I am asking for any proposals concerning organisational matters BUT PLEASE SEND THEM TO MY ADDRESS tantrapl at hektor.umcs.lublin.pl AND NOT TO THE ADDRESS OF THE INDOLOGY LIST. If you are simply interested in discussion and proposals Iet me know as well, please, and I would try to send them to larger group (I'm going to keep your names secret). Unfortunately I'm leaving for Amsterdam in an hour and I'm going to stay there for a few for months so my possibilities of action largely depend on access to Internet in Holland. I think a discussion of serious matters cannot go very fast and shouldn't be to hasty. Thank you all for patience, thank you "owners" and moderators for your work. Thank you Dominik, I hope we can expect some share of your experience and advice. Lesl~aw Borowski From alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de Wed Feb 15 17:05:46 1995 From: alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de (alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 18:05:46 +0100 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018561.23782.17791245364142125801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (Suresh Kolichala) > >> in malayalam my friends say it means "chat" (can somebody confirm?). In Thai the word pronounced chat, which is written as jaati (using the Sanskrit equivalen of Thai characters) means existence, in the sense this existence, the next one and so on. In everyday language is used in the sense or 'reincarnation.' May I remark that Thai has a particular set of characters for Sanskrit words, so it is very easy to pick up the origen of words. For example the word pronounced 'In' is written Indra, the 'd' and 'r' has a cancelation sign. Of course the meaning of 'In' is the God Indra. 'Can' (moon) is written chandra, 'athit'(sun) is written aditthya etc. .... From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Thu Feb 16 02:31:44 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:31:44 -0500 Subject: Abhishekam Query Message-ID: <161227018566.23782.5955664109307857881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear fellow Indologists, First of all greetings from cold Canada. It is still below freezing here (very coolldd!). This morning we had freezing rain on top of snow and ice; that caused many fender-bender accidents. It is supposed to warm up tomorrow (above freezing), and we are looking forward to it. Since this is my first posting to this news group, may I take the liberty of introduce myself ... My name is Sushil Jain and liver in Windsor which is in southern Ontario and across from Detroit in the USA. The two cities (Detroit and Windsor) are by a bridge (Ambassador Bridge) and a tunnel (under the Detroit River). Windsor is a small city (about 200,000 in population) and only 100 miles (160km) from London (Ont). Windsor boasts the first full- fledged Casino in Ontario (but I have never visited it though it is only a few kilometers away from my place of residence). My current research is Jainism (though I am still interested in Sikhism: my most recent article on Sikhism was publiched in the Annals of the BORI (1993; issued in June 1994), titled: "Elements of religious sacrifice in the initiation of the Khalsa"). Currently, I am writing a paper on *abhishekam* (the ritual of bathing images) in ancient Indian traditions (particularly Digambara Jain). The Jains hold an elaborate ceremony every 12 years or so at a place called Shravana Belgola in the state of Karnataka, South India when hundreds and thousands of devotee gather to perform the unique ceremony of *mahamastakabhesheka* of Bahubali. Bahubali was the younger son of first Tirthankara (Adinath Rishbadev) who had divided his kingdom amongst his eldest son, Bharata, and others while renouncing the world. Mahamastakabhesheka involves the complete bathing of the 57-foot high colossal statue of Arhat Bahubali from head to toe. The last such ceremony took place on Dec. 19, 1993. Abhishekam is considered to be the first part of puja. The 'true' meaning of abhisheka is 'bathing the Lord' (Virag Sagar, Jininder darshan, Jininder pujan, n.d.), but a Jaina scholar describes it as 'anointing ceremony' (Jaini, 1979:335); hence the term *mahamastakabhesheka* is often translated into English as 'head-anointing. Instructions for this activity, I am told, are clearly laid down in the *abhishekam path* of Abhiyanandi and Meghnandi (the exact citations I have yet to locate). Other works. e.g., Jinasena's Adipurana (vs (ie. verses) 49, 81 etc.), Ac(h)arya Kundakunda in his section on Chaityabhakti, Devasena's Kritikaram (vs. 1092), Nirinderasena's Siddhantasar (vs. 6), Jayasena's Pritishtapath etc. also refer to the ritual ofabhishekam. The last authority says: Kratavya abhisheka mahaniyatam... (vs. 914) A variety of liquids in 1008 kalashas (pots) are poured over the statue after *shudhi* (purification preparations). Flowers are showered at the conclusion of the ceremony. What we want to do is to describe this ceremony in more detail. However, before we do this we want to look at the reasons (symbolism) behind this ceremony. One of the possible reasons, as suggested by Zimmer, is that when arihant-to-be obtains enlightenment the blood which flowed through his veins becomes transparent or milky in colour (hence the pouring of milk over the image during abhesheka and the use of alabaster in making Jaina images installed in the temples, cf. Jaini, op. cit). I have not recently consulted *The History of Dharmashastra* but P.V. Kane may have something to say about it as, of course, authors on the Karnataka culture, e.g., Karmarkar, 1947; Mugali, 1946; Rice, 1921; Sharma, 1940; Shripal, 1953; Sudarsen et al (eds), 1987 etc. There may also be some insights in other works like those of Jan Gonda's "The concluding bath of the Varunapraghasa" (in Selected Studies on Ritual, ed. R. Kloppenborg); Dennis Hudson's "Bathing in Krishna: a study in Vaisnava theology" (HTR, 1980); Waghorne and Cutler's theology" (HTR 1980); Waghorne and Cutler's God's of Flesh, gods of stone: the embodiment of divinity in India, 1985 etc. There are several other sources (61 in all) which I have recorded in my contribution "Bahubali (Gommata): A Bibliography", _Jinamanjari_ vol 8, no. 3 (Dec. 1993), Some of them are: - Saryu Doshi's *Homage to Sravanabelgola*, 1981; - Vilas Sangave's *The Sacred Sharavab"Historical development off Gommatesvara cult in Karnataka," in Jainism and Karnataka Culture, ed. T. Kalghatgi, 1977; - Kalghatgi's *Gommateshvara Commemorative Volume*, 1981; - the special Mahamastakabhisheka issue of _The Illustrated Weekly of India, Feb. 15, 1981; - Ralph Strohl's superb doctoral dissertation, "The image of the Hero in Jainism: Rsabha, Bharata and Bahubali", 1984; - M.H. Krishna's "The Mastakabhiseka of Gommatesvara at Srvanabelgola" in _Jaina Antiquary_, vol. 5, no. 4 (1940) ************************** Note: The last item in -Jaina Antiquary_ I have not been able to obtain. Neither have I yet been able to obtain 1. Gandhi, S.L. Jain, "Ritual and symbol in the Jain religious tradition", _Dialogue and Alliance_ Vol. 4 (Sept. 1990), 13-20; and 2.Bolin, Nona R. and James,Gene (eds) Ritual in world's religions, Dialogue and Alliance, Spr. 1990 I wonder if any of the Indology readers would have access to these article. *********************************** There are probably many other modern sources descriptive of religious rituals and practices of the Indian/Hindu religion(s) but we are more particularly interested in locating (ancient) Jaina and Hindu sources, and in relating/comparing their ritual of *abhishekam* to the ancients whether in India or abroad. Thank you very much, email-> skjain at uwindsor.ca From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Thu Feb 16 02:51:56 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:51:56 -0500 Subject: Abhishekam in ancient Jaina literature Message-ID: <161227018568.23782.16523709542475142705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Abhisheka Query - contd. Part II Further to my earlier posting on the above mentioned subject... wherein I mentioned ... >I am writing a paper on the ritual of _abhishekam_ amongst the >Jains. Instructions for this ritual, I am told, are laid down >in the *abhishekam path* of Abhiyanandi and Meghanandi (?), but >I have not been able to locate the exact citations. I wonder if any of the Indology readers can help me locate passages from the above authors and any of the following citations: 1. Divyan nhahyan... Kundkunda, __Chaityabhakti__ 2. Khirdhisalilpuridi kanchan kalasihn addhsahahsehin| Deva Jinabhisayam mahavibhudiykunvati|| Acharya Yativrishabh, verse 584 3 Ahimseh vandana. Dvasena, _Kritikaram_, verse 1092 4. Abhishekamahnitya(nam)... Nrinderasena, _Sidhantasara_, verse 6 5. Jinabhishekhasatpatr... Jinasena, _Adipurana_, verses 49, 81. 6. Jalarjinpatin bahuahabhisinche... Abheyanandi, _Abhishekam Path_, verse 9 7. Shudhodekan Jinpatehtavpadyogatah... Meghanandi, _Abhishekapath_ 8. Krtavayabhishekha manihiyatam... Jayasena, _Pritishtapath_, verse 914 9. Saranbhinahavnaiyije savaj bhanthi| Dansutehi vinasiyu ithuna kayubhanti|| [204] 10. Natvamuhirnirjakare ramritopmaye, Svachhe Jinendratav chanderkaravdate| Shudhashukenvimlen ninantarmmyah Dahesithan jalknan parimarjayami|| (14) The above quotations have been gathered from a Hindi source, which does not provide any bibliographical details. I would appreciate any help in this matter. Thank you. Windsor/Canada From apandey at u.washington.edu Thu Feb 16 05:59:47 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 21:59:47 -0800 Subject: QUERY: The Vedic rishi, Shandilya. Message-ID: <161227018570.23782.11258564618798419725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope this query is in keeping with the precepts of the mailing list. I am trying to find out anything about the rishi Shandilya. I have checked the materials at the libraries at my University and have not been able to uncover anything except that he was the authour of a few sections of the Sathapatha Brahmana. If anyone can provide me with any information, I will greatly appreciate it. If you are able to provide me with assistance, please email me directly at . Thank you very much. Anshuman Pandey University of Washington Seattle, WA, USA From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 16 07:42:14 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 02:42:14 -0500 Subject: voting "YES" for a moderated list Message-ID: <161227018578.23782.2437329442926004818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes to moderated list. Robin Kornman From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 16 07:42:36 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 02:42:36 -0500 Subject: saMsAra Message-ID: <161227018580.23782.1189061896209557583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there in this list of roots anything which would explain the Tibetan 'khor ba, which literally means "to circle." I have heard Tibetan commentaries on this term in Buddhist Tibetan which make it seem as if it is a word for "whirlpool." Any basis in Indo-European linguistics for that? Robin Kornman > The root is perhaps, sR. sarayatE = begins to flow (Rgveda); saarun = > to transport gradually from one place to another (e.g. grain from > threshing floor to house), collect (Kashmiri); saarNo = to convey, > transplant, separate grain from dirt (Kumaoni); saarnu = to move > (Nepali). In classical Skt. there is an apparent, abrupt semantic > expansion; cf. MaitraayaNi Upanishad: saMsAra = undergoing > transmigration; Manu: secular life, the world; Pali, Pkt.: the round > of birth and death; Sinhala: sasara = transmigration; Hindi: sa~sArA = > the world; but cf. sara = going (PaaNini). I suppose that when a > reference to secular life is made by someone to a married person, in > colloquial Tamil, saMsAram does certainly connote 'family' (hence, > 'your wife'; this may be a polite way of avoiding saying the blunt, > perhaps uncivil, directness: 'your wife'! It is analogous to saying: > 'my wife is in the family way' as a substitute for: 'my wife is > pregnant'.) To revert to saMsAra: if a philosophical proposition > exists propounding 'a cyclical continuum or motion of births and > deaths', theories of transmigration cannot be far behind. > s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org > > > From hindimcs at u.washington.edu Thu Feb 16 16:26:48 1995 From: hindimcs at u.washington.edu (Michael Shapiro) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 08:26:48 -0800 Subject: "APABHRAMSA SYNTAX Message-ID: <161227018588.23782.12371668497386805528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might also want to look at Ram Adhar Singh's "Syntax of Aprabhramsa" (Simant Publications, 1980). I would also suggest that you get in contact with Professor H.C. Bhayani (25/2 Vimanagar, Satellite Road, Ahmedabad-380 015) for help on the Apabhramsa data. --M.C.Shapiro On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, gor05 wrote: > Hello fellow Indologists! > > I am currently working on my doctorate on historical syntax in the Indo- > Aryan languages and have run into a problem that I was hoping someone out > there in the list could help me with. > What I'm interested in finding out is this: in Classical Sanskrit, the PPP- > construction for the perfect normally has the agent in the instrumental, > although this can also appear in the dative or genitive, although this is > much more seldom. For example: mayA kaTaH kRtaH, or seldom: mama/mahyam > kaTaH kRtaH. > The same is also true with the gerundivum ('participium > necessitatis'): one normally says mayA kaTaH kartavyaH, but it is also > allowed to say mama/mahyam kaTaH kartavyaH. As with the PPP, this is very > seldomly used. Panini's rules as to which verbs take which case seem to > have lost their validity early on. > I have also noticed that the same seems to hold true for (early) Pali texts > (such as the MahAvagga).What I wanted to know is whether in Apabhramsa these > constructions are as seldomly used with the genitive / dative as they are in > Skt/Pali, or whether they - especially with the gerundive - appear more often > with the genitive or dative than in Skt., as for example in Hindi: > mujhe (dative) kuch karnA hai - I have to do something. As I don't know any > Apabhramsa, I am completely dependent on secondary literature. So far, all > I have found is G. Tagare's: Historical Grammar of ApabhramSa, which doesn't > seem to deal with syntax very much. > If there is enough interest, I'd be glad to post a summary. Please send any > replies directly to me. > > Thanks in advance! > > John Peterson, Kiel, Germany > email: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de > > From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Thu Feb 16 10:22:58 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 10:22:58 +0000 Subject: Moderation Message-ID: <161227018618.23782.7528258646698572736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J.K. Brzezinski said: > In view of Dominik's request that the subject of moderation be > discontinued, it seems clear that he himself does not wish to himself > take up the job. Please do not discuss moderation any more in this forum. This does not mean I don't think it shouldn't happen, or that I won't do it at some time in the future. It means what it says. Please do not discuss this matter on INDOLOGY. When you joined INDOLOGY certain topics were outlined as being the purpose of the list. Please stick to those topics. If you do not, INDOLOGY ceases to perform the function for which it is valued and for which people join it, and it will be closed down. In case you had not noticed, I am trying hard to moderate INDOLOGY by personal, case-by-case intervention, without imposing more formal structures on everyone. I feel this is a more humane procedure, and it is also the only approach I am physically able to take, given my remote and expensive email connection. Please respect the effort I am making. > The majority opinion seems to favour the option. With respect, Jan, this is not even close to being valid. There are more than 350 INDOLOGY members, and this whole moderation discussion has been imposed on them by about six people. > Ergo, we need volunteers for the position of moderator? If someone would like to start a list (or a less formal group-email arrangement) for discussing the running of INDOLOGY, please do so. I mean this seriously. This is the normal procedure for such matters on the Net. A separate, temporary list is set up for the particular discussion of list policy, and for voting. I don't mind at all if someone wants to do this, although the question of representation will arise. (I.e., if twenty people join and vote, do the other 330 take any notice?) Dominik Original-Received: from blue.weeg.uiowa.edu by ns-mx.uiowa.edu (8.6.8.2/19950217.1) on Fri, 17 Feb 1995 23:37:13 -0600 id XAA09480 with ESMTP PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Original-Received: by blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (8.6.9/940408) on Fri, 17 Feb 1995 18:38:18 -0600 id SAA146804 PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 18:37:46 -0600 (CST) From: "F. Smith" To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk cc: Members of the list Subject: Re: A monthly magazine in modern Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <9501177930.AA793040360 at mail.asiandevbank.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 17 Feb 1995, s. kalyanaraman wrote: > (4) Promotion of interest in conversational Sanskrit: > > A new sanskrit monthly sambhaashaNa sandeshaH is being published from > Bangalore. It is designed to promote interest in conversational > sanskrit. For those interested in subscribing to the SAMBHASHANA SANDESHAH the following information might be useful. (I quote from a flier that accompanied the January edition.) "A complete magazine, first of its kind, in simple but effective Samskrit language. This magazine comes to you in attractive, multi-coloured offset printing on 1/4th demi-paper. Magazine is full of articles on various subjects like culture, philosophy, language teaching and practice, science and on current topics of national importance in addition to quizzes, crossword puzzles and short stories. Yearly subscription for Overseas subscribers: US $ 13 (inclusive of airmail charges for 12 issues) Please send Demand Draft (checks not accepted) made in favour of "Sambhashana Sandeshah", payable at Bangalore to: SAMBHASHANA SANDESHAH "Aksharam", 8th Cross, Girinagar, Bangalore -- 560 085 (India) (ph. 6613052) " The editors also put out the Sanskrit version of the popular "Chandamama" magazine. The Sambhashana Sandeshah achieves its simplicity by doing away with sandhi, the dual, the second person, etc. If you know any Indian regional language --and read devanagari-- you'll have a fair shot at getting through the articles. Words are typically employed in one specific meaning. (The publishers used to put out a small kosa which was useful in learning which word had been assigned to a particular meaning or thing, e.g. nuclear submarine = visishta-tantra-jnaana-yuktaa jalaantargaaminii naukaa) The crossword puzzle is kind of nifty and the word scramble has me stumped. (These are regular features put together by the wife of a very good vaiyaakarana, herself a vidushii.) For further information one can give them a call at the number above -- but if your spoken Sanskrit isn't up to par then Kannada is your next best bet. (The phone is often answered by those who don't speak any English -- or even Hindi.) Hope the above info. is not considered too far off the Indological mark. (Incidently, one of the goals of the group is to encourage--or at least not to discourage-- a circle of illiterate Sanskrit speakers!) Tim Cahill University of Iowa Dept. of Asian Languages and Literature 653 Phillips Hall Iowa City, Iowa 52242 tcahill at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Thu Feb 16 10:28:16 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 10:28:16 +0000 Subject: Etymology of the word - kundanam ? Message-ID: <161227018615.23782.13209450424090971336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Suresh Kolichala said: > > A while ago, I posted this query, but never seemed to have reached here. > Yes, we all saw it. Suresh, there is a setting in the listproc software that INDOLOGY uses that controls whether you see your own outbound messages or not. It is "ACK" or "NOACK". I believe that the default setting is "NOACK", which means that when you send a message to INDOLOGY, everyone else sees it, but INDOLOGY doesn't send it back to you. To change this option, send the message "set indology mail ack" to the address "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk" I think that should do the trick. Unfortunately, that won't guarantee a flood of informed answers to your question. :-) Dominik From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Thu Feb 16 10:46:28 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 10:46:28 +0000 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018613.23782.6861204229125129055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My driver, a good Kannnadiga, says unhesitatingly that "sa.msaara" means "family" to him. Dominik From gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de Thu Feb 16 11:34:11 1995 From: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (gor05) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 11:34:11 +0000 Subject: "APABHRAMSA SYNTAX Message-ID: <161227018584.23782.169980479837998191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello fellow Indologists! I am currently working on my doctorate on historical syntax in the Indo- Aryan languages and have run into a problem that I was hoping someone out there in the list could help me with. What I'm interested in finding out is this: in Classical Sanskrit, the PPP- construction for the perfect normally has the agent in the instrumental, although this can also appear in the dative or genitive, although this is much more seldom. For example: mayA kaTaH kRtaH, or seldom: mama/mahyam kaTaH kRtaH. The same is also true with the gerundivum ('participium necessitatis'): one normally says mayA kaTaH kartavyaH, but it is also allowed to say mama/mahyam kaTaH kartavyaH. As with the PPP, this is very seldomly used. Panini's rules as to which verbs take which case seem to have lost their validity early on. I have also noticed that the same seems to hold true for (early) Pali texts (such as the MahAvagga).What I wanted to know is whether in Apabhramsa these constructions are as seldomly used with the genitive / dative as they are in Skt/Pali, or whether they - especially with the gerundive - appear more often with the genitive or dative than in Skt., as for example in Hindi: mujhe (dative) kuch karnA hai - I have to do something. As I don't know any Apabhramsa, I am completely dependent on secondary literature. So far, all I have found is G. Tagare's: Historical Grammar of ApabhramSa, which doesn't seem to deal with syntax very much. If there is enough interest, I'd be glad to post a summary. Please send any replies directly to me. Thanks in advance! John Peterson, Kiel, Germany email: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de From Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr Thu Feb 16 14:20:50 1995 From: Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr (Jean-Luc.Chevillard at linguist.jussieu.fr) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 15:20:50 +0100 Subject: info please Message-ID: <161227018586.23782.3927974231088477372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Unfortunately I have lost the address to send to the listserv to >unsubscribe from this mailing list. Would someone be so kind as to email >me this address. > >Thank you... Don Menges > dmenges at ix.netcom.com > >-- >Don Menges >Greece Central Schools >Rochester, New York 14615 >dmenges at ix.netcom.com >(716) 621-1000x2382 > Recently we have received this information on how to SUBSCRIBE. I am sending it to you accompanied with my educated guess as to how one can UNSUSCRIBE. Good Luck. ********************************************* To join the Indologists' list INDOLOGY: 1) Send mail to listproc at liverpool.ac.uk 2) Omit the subject 3) Send a one line message of the form: SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY Joe Bloggs (replace Joe Bloggs with your own name) 4) Shortly after successfully joining you will receive a welcome message. PLEASE keep this in a safe place....it contains important information which you will need if and when you decide to leave INDOLOGY. Chris Wooff (Owner of Indology list) *********************************************** To quit INDOLOGY: 1) Send mail to listproc at liverpool.ac.uk 2) Omit the subject 3) Send a one line message of the form: UNSUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY 4) Shortly after you will receive a confirmation message. - Jean-Luc Chevillard From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Thu Feb 16 15:22:50 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 15:22:50 +0000 Subject: Nandu Abhyankar's suggestions on indology focus groups Message-ID: <161227018576.23782.7613966220978234681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nandu Abhyankar's ideas are thought-provoking. Perhaps, e-mail-based indology group is best nurtured this way, provoking thought. Indology is a vast arena. The 300+ members who constitute this group at this time will certainly arrive at topics of general interest as questions get posed and sometimes, answered. I have, for example, suggested soma in the veda as a topic. Whether this topic will survive is entirely dependent on the interest it evokes among the indology members. Maybe, this evolutionary process has to continue; the debate on 'moderation' is a good example of a widely-shared, interesting topic. Someone may have quotes from Sanskrit texts on 'moderation'. The 'Aryan question' is evoking some debate in the India Discussion Digest group. (listserv at india.bgsu.edu). I do not know, if this may be of interest to the Indology group. A related topic could be the delineation of bhaaSaa or Prakrts as the source of verb roots in Sanskrit. If the network can handle images, it may be fascinating to allow the members to build up a library of iconographs and explain what the icons represent. The group is enjoyable; how I wish we can see photographs and/or hear the voices of contributors too, to lend a personal touch! I fondly hope I will continue to benefit from this group, since I am not sure how I will get connected to internet using my personal computer at home in Madras, India (starting 1 March 1995). From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Thu Feb 16 16:21:59 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 16:21:59 +0000 Subject: saMsAra Message-ID: <161227018582.23782.9801284750244111395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are some etyma for 'whirl': ghuurN to move to and fro (Sanskrit); curi = whirl; cuZHi = whirlpool (Tamil); I do not know if they are relatable to Tibetan khor ba. ______________________________ Reply Separator ________________________________ Subject: Re: saMsAra Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 16/02/1995 3:55 PM Is there in this list of roots anything which would explain the Tibetan 'khor ba, which literally means "to circle." I have heard Tibetan commentaries on this term in Buddhist Tibetan which make it seem as if it is a word for "whirlpool." Any basis in Indo-European linguistics for that? Robin Kornman > The root is perhaps, sR. sarayatE = begins to flow (Rgveda); saarun = > to transport gradually from one place to another (e.g. grain from > threshing floor to house), collect (Kashmiri); saarNo = to convey, > transplant, separate grain from dirt (Kumaoni); saarnu = to move > (Nepali). In classical Skt. there is an apparent, abrupt semantic > expansion; cf. MaitraayaNi Upanishad: saMsAra = undergoing > transmigration; Manu: secular life, the world; Pali, Pkt.: the round > of birth and death; Sinhala: sasara = transmigration; Hindi: sa~sArA = > the world; but cf. sara = going (PaaNini). I suppose that when a > reference to secular life is made by someone to a married person, in > colloquial Tamil, saMsAram does certainly connote 'family' (hence, > 'your wife'; this may be a polite way of avoiding saying the blunt, > perhaps uncivil, directness: 'your wife'! It is analogous to saying: > 'my wife is in the family way' as a substitute for: 'my wife is > pregnant'.) To revert to saMsAra: if a philosophical proposition > exists propounding 'a cyclical continuum or motion of births and > deaths', theories of transmigration cannot be far behind. > s._kalyanaraman at ctlmail.asiandevbank.org > > > From kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu Fri Feb 17 00:59:22 1995 From: kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu (Harper, Katherine) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 16:59:22 -0800 Subject: SYMPOSIUM ON THE ROOTS OF TANTRA Message-ID: <161227018592.23782.11978387727045103770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> THE ROOTS OF TANTRA, II A SYMPOSIUM PRESENTED BY THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SEMINAR ON SOUTH ASIA UCLA - DICKSON ART CENTER, ROOM 3260 MARCH 11, 1995 9:00 Coffee and Donuts 9:20 Opening Remarks - Katherine Harper 9:30 David Lorenzen, El Colegio de Mexico "Early Evidence for Tantric Ritual" Respondent: Katherine Harper 10:30 Thomas Coburn, St. Lawrence University "The Structural Interplay of Tantra, Vedanta and Bhakti: Nondualist Commentary on the Goddess" Respondent: Robert Brown 11:30 Lina Gupta, Glendale College "Tantric Rituals in the Devi Purana" Respondent: Christopher Chapple 12:30 Lunch 2:30 Paul Ortega Muller, Michigan State University "Becoming Bhairava: Meditative Vision in Abhinavagupta's The Short Gloss on the Para-Trisika-Laghuvritti" Respondent: Gerald Larson 3:30 Douglas Renfrew Brooks, "Auspicious Fragments and Uncertain Wisdom: The Roots of Srividya Sakta in South India" Respondent: Barbara Holdrege From pesch at indoger.unizh.ch Thu Feb 16 17:36:33 1995 From: pesch at indoger.unizh.ch (pesch at indoger.unizh.ch) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 18:36:33 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit lexicon Message-ID: <161227018589.23782.7404125259261107404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Thomas Malten's sample page of Monier-Williams I have been reflecting about the types of information I would like to be able to find (electronically); a simple reproduction of the printed page might not be sufficient. And IF the conversion into electronic format is done manually (and Malten's sample looks like it), and IF it is done by trained people, it would seem highly recommendable to tag the various types of information. A main entry may contain information concerning: -- source texts (individual or groups, with textual reference or without, mostly tied to specific meaning) -- sublemmas (distinguished according to part of speech, e.g. nouns as sublemmas to adjectives, marked by italic endings in parentheses) -- compounds with identical first member (indicated by leading hyphen if sandhi allows that) -- compounds with the lemma-word as second member -- parallel lemmas -- pointers to other lemmata (entries without indication of meanings) -- "homonyms" (different meanings) dependant on the grammatical tag (e.g. kut2 as "cl. 6.P." or as "cl. 4.P.") -- explanations (e.g. "there being eight elephants of the cardinal points") I do not see that the typography in Monier-Williams would allow to distinguish these (and other) types of information automatically. In my project of computerizing Mylius' Woerterbuch Sanskrit-Deutsch I have no "manual labour" at my disposal and must restrict the tagging to what can be achieved by interpreting the typography of the printed book: 1. Counter for homonyms 2. lemma 3. grammatical tags 4. meaning or meanings (including specifications concerning semantic context, syntax, etc.) I suppose some kind of agreement as to what is recommandable and/or necessary should be reached before each of us begin to encode his/her 55K of Monier-Williams. Does the Text Encoding Initiative provide us with a model?! Peter Schreiner (PS: I am NOT concerned with the details of transliteration or tagging; Malten's system is beautifully unambiguous. But I would like to understand the requirements for the "logic" of an electronic dictionary.) From bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU Fri Feb 17 00:18:31 1995 From: bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU (Pramit Bhasin) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 19:18:31 -0500 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018591.23782.16393304996360566625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste, My name is Pramit Bhasin and I am a third year medical student at New Jersey Medical School in USA. This spring I will celebrate my seventh aniversary in America. Though much has changed around me since the time of my arrival in the states there remains one constant in my life. I can say with an element of certainty, that, my name has always been an immense source of curiosity for both Americans and my own Indian brethern. Often I am asked, " What does your name mean." On numerous occasions this has even been an embarracement - for I don't know what it means. I have looked up several hindi dictionarys but to my dismay I have been unable to find what it means. Even my Hindi teacher in high school was quite perplexed about the origins of my name. It is difficult to write the exact phoenitic pronounciation of my name in English - but I will do my best. My name has two sounds. The first is pra ( pra is the same as the first sound in prana - life) and the second sound is mit ( as in the name amit or mitesh) I sincerely hope that someone will be of assistance in seven year long quest of mine.I also hope that this query of mine is in accordance with the set forth objectives of this list - my apologies to all if it isn't. Sincerly pramit bhasin From mundst at husc.harvard.edu Fri Feb 17 06:39:58 1995 From: mundst at husc.harvard.edu (Sascha Mundstein) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 01:39:58 -0500 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018599.23782.4129553102145116445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message <"mailhub.live:276070:950217002041"@liverpool.ac.uk> writes: > Namaste, > > My name is Pramit Bhasin and I am a third year medical student at New Jersey > Medical School in USA. This spring I will celebrate my seventh aniversary in > America. Though much has changed around me since the time of my arrival in > the states there remains one constant in my life. I can say with an element > of certainty, that, my name has always been an immense source of curiosity > for both Americans and my own Indian brethern. Often I am asked, " What does > your name mean." On numerous occasions this has even been an embarracement - > for I don't know what it means. > > I have looked up several hindi dictionarys but to my dismay I have been > unable to find what it means. Even my Hindi teacher in high school was quite > perplexed about the origins of my name. It is difficult to write the exact > phoenitic pronounciation of my name in English - but I will do my best. > > My name has two sounds. The first is pra ( pra is the same as the first sound > in prana - life) and the second sound is mit ( as in the name amit or mitesh) > > I sincerely hope that someone will be of assistance in seven year long quest > of mine.I also hope that this query of mine is in accordance with the set > forth objectives of this list - my apologies to all if it isn't. > > Sincerly > pramit bhasin > Dear Pramit, Pramit is indeed a rather common name in Thai with exactly the etimology mentioned earlier by Mr. Kalyanaraman, i.e. in Thai it is spelled pramitr, where 'pra' is a particle to add emphasis and 'mitr' means 'friend'. Congratulations, it is an excellent and truly Sanskritic name. Sincerely, Sajjaa. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 17 08:35:53 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 08:35:53 +0000 Subject: Nandu Abhyankar's suggestions on indology focus groups Message-ID: <161227018597.23782.613869177856529170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me summarize the suggestions made by Nandu Abhyankar nandu at vtph2.ple.af.mil Nandu's excellent suggestions relate to the promotion of focussed discussions/info. exchange on a number of topics; he also seeks directions from indology group members on the development of Sanskrit dictionary on internet: (1) Status report on availability of transliterated Sanskrit texts on internet: Prof Tokunaga and his Japanese students have recently made available the entire text of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, in a transliterated form (english). MIT scholars have made a first attempt to re-encode those input texts in ITRANS format, and thus also obtain Sanskrit Devanagari output. Version 1.0 of this effort is now available for general net access. The address of the anonymous FTP site directory is: ftp://saraswati.mit.edu/pub/iepics-1.0/ Thanks to Sandeep Kumar Gupta for this FTP site.All the files in that directory (except the READMEs) are compressed using GNU-ZIP, so gzip/gunzip are needed to expand the files. The line spacing is still undecided. At present the 10pt printing uses12pt for baselineskip. The one and half spacing (15pt) is known to look better but the page numbers increase by almost 100*(15/12) percent. Based on the input from others, this and other problems will be corrected. Avinash Chopde (508) 640 3138 avinash at acm.org Avid Technology, Inc Tewksbury, Massachusetts, USA avinash at avid.com (2) Status report on Sanskrit dictionary on internet: Creating a sanskrit dictionary on internet is a big task which has to be done by full-time scholars; directions from indology group members are welcome. (3) Sanskrit Texts available on other newsgroups: There are some texts (in sanskrit) available on ftp or http to chandra.astro.indiana.edu which of course need meanings. The texts are encoded in the ITRANS transliteration scheme and can be easily converted to CSX format. The software is developed by Avinash Chopde and uses Frans Velthuis's devanagari fonts and TeX/LaTeX. (4) Promotion of interest in conversational Sanskrit: A new sanskrit monthly sambhaashaNa sandeshaH is being published from Bangalore. It is designed to promote interest in conversational sanskrit. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 17 09:12:11 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 09:12:11 +0000 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018594.23782.3789177329592690269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pramit Bhasin; please note that it is a risky undertaking to attempt explanation of proper names. However, generally, sanskrit-based names are pregnant with meaning. mita (according to PaaNini) means 'measured' (root: maa); sometimed mitra, 'friend' also gets contracted phonetically for e.g.: mit (Hindi), mitt (Punjabi, Nepali); miit (Kumaoni) also mean 'friend'. bhaasin means 'shining' (root: bhaa); e.g. pahaasai = shines (Prakrt); prabhaasatE id. (Sanskrit); paasvu~ = to make bright (Gujarati). I cannot satisfactorily explain the prefix: pra-; maybe it is a metathesis of: para- = beyond, further; e.g. paramaka = most excellent. Of course, pra- as a particle is also used (as a prefix) to connote 'a portion' : e.g. pra-dEs~a = region; to add emphasis: e.g. pra-maaNa = measure; pra-mada = joy (mada = desire); pra-bhaata = shone forth (root: bhaa to shine). pra-mit may be explained as : 'moderated, measured'; and bhaasin as 'effulgent'. Pramit Bhasin; your parents perhaps saw as you either (1) as measured effulgence incarnate, or (2) as the most-friendly sun; in either case, evoking the mild dawn when the ancients did their suurya-namaskaarams. Maybe, I am imagining too much. Enjoy your name. It is beautiful. Best wishes, S. Kalyanaraman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 17/02/1995 8:30 AM Namaste, My name is Pramit Bhasin and I am a third year medical student at New Jersey Medical School in USA. This spring I will celebrate my seventh aniversary in America. Though much has changed around me since the time of my arrival in the states there remains one constant in my life. I can say with an element of certainty, that, my name has always been an immense source of curiosity for both Americans and my own Indian brethern. Often I am asked, " What does your name mean." On numerous occasions this has even been an embarracement - for I don't know what it means. I have looked up several hindi dictionarys but to my dismay I have been unable to find what it means. Even my Hindi teacher in high school was quite perplexed about the origins of my name. It is difficult to write the exact phoenitic pronounciation of my name in English - but I will do my best. My name has two sounds. The first is pra ( pra is the same as the first sound in prana - life) and the second sound is mit ( as in the name amit or mitesh) I sincerely hope that someone will be of assistance in seven year long quest of mine.I also hope that this query of mine is in accordance with the set forth objectives of this list - my apologies to all if it isn't. Sincerly pramit bhasin From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 17 09:40:24 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 09:40:24 +0000 Subject: Nandu Abhyankar's suggestions on indology focus groups Message-ID: <161227018596.23782.9708728034168946197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I made an error in my earlier posting. Mr. Nandu Abhyankar's correct email address is: nandu at vthp2.ple.af.mil Sorry for any inconvenience caused. Thanks. S. Kalyanaraman From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Feb 17 17:58:03 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 09:58:03 -0800 Subject: Abhishekam Query Message-ID: <161227018609.23782.3616942841799100466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | A variety of liquids in 1008 kalashas (pots) are poured over the | statue after *shudhi* (purification preparations). Flowers are | showered at the conclusion of the ceremony. | | What we want to do is to describe this ceremony in more detail. | However, before we do this we want to look at the reasons | (symbolism) behind this ceremony. | | One of the possible reasons, as suggested by Zimmer, is that when | arihant-to-be obtains enlightenment the blood which flowed through | his veins becomes transparent or milky in colour (hence the pouring of milk | over the image during abhesheka and the use of alabaster in | making Jaina images installed in the temples, cf. Jaini, op. cit). |.............. Other reasons, both symbolic, and practical, as suggested by Sadhu: a) the milky liquid pouring down over the Diety or saint is symbolic of what the mystic experiences within when penetrating into the crown chakra; he has transmuted the sexual (milky) fluids into energy rising up the spine (kunalini) stimulating the pituatary and pineal glands to release their fluids, which in ecstatic inner vision, the mystic sees pouring down from within his head and down through the body and out the psychic nerve systems. a tiny drop of this fluid (soma .. as in a recent thread in this group, the drink of the brahmans that none knows ..) brilliantly glowing within the cranium is refered to by christian mystics as "the perl of great price". abhesheka is of course performed at thousands and thousands of hindu temples daily b) the Gods, the inner plane dieties, the various Hindu Mahadevas come in their etheric body and inhabit the murthi during the abhesheka, and the liquid helps them to see better, and transmit their darshan better, to the devotees in the bhuloka (1st world), as normally our physical plane is more or less foggy looking when viewed from the inner worlds. water helps purify the atmosphere, along with of course the mantras and other ritualistic acts performed by the priests during puja. these acts are not merely symbolic, they have precise effects on the energy field surrounding the temple. Aum Namashivaya sadhunathan From SKTJLBS at srv0.arts.ed.ac.uk Fri Feb 17 10:16:15 1995 From: SKTJLBS at srv0.arts.ed.ac.uk (John Brockington) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 10:16:15 +0000 Subject: Symposium on Indian Religions Message-ID: <161227018602.23782.15897805006865486345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julia Leslie recently posted information about the forthcoming Twentieth Symposium on Indian Religions and asked that someone should supply the name of the convener. He is in fact Dr Peter Connolly (West Sussex Inst. of Higher Education). However, bookings should be made to Christopher Aslett, Chester College of Higher Education, Cheyney Road, Chester CH1 4BJ. I have returned my own booking form, so I cannot give details of cost of accommodaton and/or meals, but I do remember that the registration fee is #15 (#7.50 for students). Yours John Brockington From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Fri Feb 17 19:07:55 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 11:07:55 -0800 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018612.23782.10030405839018457188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Pramit, This is an interesting question; not exactly the sort of thing this list was meant for, but welcome nonetheless, and more interesting than a lot of what has been coming over lately. Anway: Pramit (as noted by a previous respondent) is no doubt the same as Sanskrit pramita, which means, literally, 'measured', from the root maa 'measure' and the common prefix pra-, which in this case does not substantially change the meaning of the root (traditional commentators would probably gloss it as meaning 'prakar.se.na', 'especially,' by way of a vague 'emphasis'). The name probably does not, however, have anything to do with Sanskrit mitra, 'friend,' as has been suggested. The term pramita has a distinctly favorable connotation of '(correctly/precisely/carefully) measured out'; compare the related noun pramaa.na, '(true) measure; (reliable/authoritative) source of knowledge; authority'. Moreover, it seems to be especially appropriate to your last name, if, as I suspect, it corresponds to Sanskrit bhaa.sin, 'speaker'. I am not familiar with this family name, but this would seem to me to be a possible etymology. And if so, your whole name would mean "Measured Speaker," implying something like "One who speaks limited words," i.e. who speaks only when he has something to say (and vice versa). By the way, I wonder if you ever tried asking the Americans who ask you what your name means, what their own names mean? I doubt that many if any of them would know. English, and especially American names are generally much more difficult to understand etymologically than Indian ones, due to linguistic changes, diverse sources, etc. Most people don't even bother thinking about these things until they meet some foreigner with an exotic-sounding name. -Richard Salomon (a.k.a. Rule-hard Peacemaker) University of Washington On Fri, 17 Feb 1995, Pramit Bhasin wrote: > Namaste, > > My name is Pramit Bhasin and I am a third year medical student at New Jersey > Medical School in USA. This spring I will celebrate my seventh aniversary in > America. Though much has changed around me since the time of my arrival in > the states there remains one constant in my life. I can say with an element > of certainty, that, my name has always been an immense source of curiosity > for both Americans and my own Indian brethern. Often I am asked, " What does > your name mean." On numerous occasions this has even been an embarracement - > for I don't know what it means. > > I have looked up several hindi dictionarys but to my dismay I have been > unable to find what it means. Even my Hindi teacher in high school was quite > perplexed about the origins of my name. It is difficult to write the exact > phoenitic pronounciation of my name in English - but I will do my best. > > My name has two sounds. The first is pra ( pra is the same as the first sound > in prana - life) and the second sound is mit ( as in the name amit or mitesh) > > I sincerely hope that someone will be of assistance in seven year long quest > of mine.I also hope that this query of mine is in accordance with the set > forth objectives of this list - my apologies to all if it isn't. > > Sincerly > pramit bhasin > > > - From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Fri Feb 17 13:15:20 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 14:15:20 +0100 Subject: ascii encoding for Vedic? Message-ID: <161227018603.23782.7892956552467395062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, this is a questions for those who have some experience with Vedic Sanskrit. I use ascii chart partly compatible with CSX encoding, but I want to be able to write (about) words from Vedic and I think that CSX does not provide all the accentuated letters (may be I remember wrong). I want to have all necessary accentuted letters in my ascii which however combines so many different letters that I do not want to add anything unnecessary. So, please if you know which of the following letters do not occur in Vedic at all, let me know (my address is below). e,u,i and long i,u,r with (independent) svarita? Thanks for pointing out those which do not occur Jakub Cejka -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Fri Feb 17 14:39:43 1995 From: ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Johannes B. Tuemmers) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 15:39:43 +0100 Subject: gZhan-stong, Jo-nang-pa and related studies Message-ID: <161227018605.23782.15366442766128624732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of this list, as this message is being sent to Indology/Buddha-L/Tibet-L/buddhist-philosophy, please excuse possible cross-posting. After I introduced myself to the members of this list (10.1994) and my current subject of studies, I received some valuable and welcome contacts from all over this globe. Right now, I would like to encourage all those interested in this field of study (which is the study of the Rang-stong/gZhan-stong discussion in Tibet, the history of the Jo-nang-pa tradition (of witch I am preparing a PhD-thesis) and generally related questions in this field, such as the questions of the roots in Indian traditions, synonyms of names, the differentiation of the strands, such as those of sUtra- and tantra-gZhan-stong etc.) to join the following little _project_: It would be of great help to collect a general bibliography of this tradition. The study of gZhan-stong is in an early stage, still, and a list of related texts, articles, references etc. would be of considerable help. My idea is to devide this list under four headings: (A) Basic sources. This includes tibetan texts on this particular subject, such as those of Mi-pham, TAranAtha, Sakya-mchog-ldan, etc. These could be philosophical, historical, or summarizing (such as general overviews, chos-'byung, enceclopaedic) texts. I'm not shure, wether those Indian texts, which are considered as basic scources of the gZhan-stong tradition, such as the RGV, the TathAgatagarbha-texts, etc. should be included here or not or wether they could make up another seperate group. Please feel free to give me your advice/opinion about this. (B) Secondary sources, i.e. Tibetan texts which cite, relate to, criticize or mention gZhan-stong, it's history, etc. and do not hold the gZhan-stong view (!). Of particular interest would be the critics from the Rang-stong literature of, for example, Tsong-kha-pa, rGyal-tshab-rje, etc. (C) Western scources primarily concerned with gZhan-stong (Hookham: The Buddha within; Broido: The Jo-nang-pas on Madhyamaka ..). (D) Western scources which mention, criticize or relate to gZhan-stong, such as Ruegg, Tucci, Hopkins, Williams and many more. Every reference should be as accurate as possible, i.e. according to bibliographical standarts. I would be happy to collect the (hopefully) numerous contributions and shall post the (edited) results to all of them without bothering all members of the list, who are not so concerned about this subject. Naturally, all contributions should be posted to my private e-mail address, which is ami0209 at rs1.rrz.uni-koeln.de and NOT TO THE LIST! With all best wishes, yours scincerely Johannes Johannes B. Tuemmers, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, Pohligstr.1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel. Ger-(0)221-4705344 Fax: 0221/4705151 email: ami0209 at rs1.rrz.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 17 16:01:55 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 16:01:55 +0000 Subject: Vedic mathematics Message-ID: <161227018600.23782.12120530951657454689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found this interesting posting on the India Discussion Digest:Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 09:30:52 EST From: ciswa at mse.ufl.edu Subject: ShUnya NamaskAram KarishyAmi! (Worship Nothing!) Perhaps the most intriguing feature of Vedic Mathematics is their intuitive recognition of the importance of zero. The introduction of zero streamlines number systems and facilitates artithmetic. Despite the introduction of zero into the Hindu-Arabic system used by the Westerners, the enormity of nothing(!) is infrequently appreciated. Part of the problem is the English language which confuses "the presence of nothing" with the "absence of something" and "the absence of anything". Consider the difference between (a) there is NOTHING there and (b) vahan kuch nahi hai {there is NOT ANYTHING there} and (c) vahan koyi patthar nahi hai {there are "NO ROCKS" there} This confusion leads to such silly syllogisms as "something is better than nothing - nothing is better than god - therefore something is better than god" which cannot be translated into Hindi for example. In any case, here is more Vedic Mathematics which relies heavily on 0 as a place holder: Addition by "Sutra Shudha": Multiplication by "Urdhva-Tiryagbhyam" (the Bindi method) (Vertically & cross-wise method) .. 2 7 3 7 9 x 4 6 . ----- 8 5 4 4 2 . . . . 7 6 7 1 2 - . 4 2 6 2 8 - 8 - - -------- -------- 2 4 2 6 1 2 4 2 -------- -------- Before moving to higher columns The "-"'s are place holders for zeros. the number of dots (shudhikaran") Again, the number of memory registers are counted and used as a carry required for this procedure is far over. Note that no intermediate fewer than that for multiplication result EVER EXCEEDS 19! by the carry-over method. Basically, the Vedic method (a) allows you to carry out big calculations in your head (since you have to remember only one or two intermediate results) and therefore (b) allows you to razzle-dazzle your friends and ultimately (c) makes mathematics more fun! ***Those of you who are Anglophiles, Indophobes or people with school-age children will no doubt recognize these two examples as the "New Math" that they teach children here in the U.S. From the Vedas to New Math - we have come a full circle (or should I say 0) - haven't we? Coimbatore V.Iswaran. From ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Fri Feb 17 16:53:34 1995 From: ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 17:53:34 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit lexicon Message-ID: <161227018607.23782.9032680544499248473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In response to Thomas Malten's sample page of Monier-Williams I have been > reflecting about the types of information I would like to be able to find > (electronically); a simple reproduction of the printed page might not be > sufficient. And IF the conversion into electronic format is done manually > (and Malten's sample looks like it), and IF it is done by trained people, it > would seem highly recommendable to tag the various types of information. The conversion of my sample page of MW was indeed done by a student of Sanskrit but I think all the general structural information (which basically amount to typeface chnages and diacritics as contained in the tag list) can be identified by anyone. A simple reproduction of MW at first may answer most of the needs a general user may have and does not preclude further tagging operations. What I wanted to convey with the example page is that with comparative little effort one could have at least all the information electronically that the printed MW gives and more (e.g. English-Skt). I think that most of the tagging requirements you have detailed can be achieved automatically once the "text" is there (that is what I meant by "programmable"). I shall try to comment on each point you have raised. The MW entries can then be used either in PC/Mac editor systems or can be converted to the simple Internet/Unix GOPHER based WAIS full text retrieval system (you can check our OTL and Tamil concordances). But basically there is no hindrance I can see to convert the MW text for use under any system, OCP, Tact, 4th Dimension, Dbase, TUSTEP or whatever. > A main entry may contain information concerning: > -- source texts (individual or groups, with textual reference or without, > mostly tied to specific meaning) the sources which MW gives can be unambiguously accessed through his list of abbreviations. That is, if you search for the string "MBh.*" you are not likely to get anything but Mahabharata citations. > -- sublemmas (distinguished according to part of speech, e.g. nouns as > sublemmas to adjectives, marked by italic endings in parentheses) can be generated by searching for string "(%i1%), f." or the like which can then be automatically tagged to each subsequent Skt. word of the subentry. > -- compounds with identical first member (indicated by leading hyphen if > sandhi allows that) can be generated automatically by putting the headword into a variable XYZ and then replacing each occurence of string "{#-" with the headword. Let's take for example the entry *{%kun5jara, as$}: 1. XYZ = {%kun5jara 2. change all "{#-" into xyz [until next occurrence of "*"] > -- compounds with the lemma-word as second member basically the same as above, eg. 1. xyz={%kun5jara 2. change all "+$}" into XYZ [{%ra1jak+$} becomes {%ra1jak+kun5jara$}] > -- parallel lemmas basically the same, if I know the notation used in MW > -- pointers to other lemmata (entries without indication of meanings) that should be taken care of in a retrieval system by querying for the string after the crossreference but otherwise it would be equally easy - if somewhat wasteful (digital pollution!) - to repeat the entry referred to. > -- "homonyms" (different meanings) dependant on the grammatical tag (e.g. > kut2 as "cl. 6.P." or as "cl. 4.P.") the identification is there, as the classes (e.g. "cl. 6.P.") can serve as tags [or have I missed something?]. > -- explanations (e.g. "there being eight elephants of the cardinal points") explanationas are always in Roman type face and preceeded and followed by a bracket "(" ")". To take up your example: 1. locate first occurence of "$" [=Roman type face] 2. locate first occurrence of "(" 3. match closing bracket 4. [done] > I do not see that the typography in Monier-Williams would allow to > distinguish these (and other) types of information automatically. unless there are ambiguities/difficulties in MW not met with on page 288 (for example the occurrence of words written in Greek or other exotic scripts) I think everything can be done. If you are interested I can send you the REXX macros which will do this for page 288. > In my project of computerizing Mylius' Woerterbuch Sanskrit-Deutsch I have > no "manual labour" at my disposal and must restrict the tagging to what can > be achieved by interpreting the typography of the printed book: > 1. Counter for homonyms > 2. lemma > 3. grammatical tags > 4. meaning or meanings (including specifications concerning semantic > context, syntax, etc.) how do you do it? it may be useful to have a detailed description and examples of your work process. > I suppose some kind of agreement as to what is recommandable and/or > necessary should be reached before each of us begin to encode his/her 55K of > Monier-Williams. Does the Text Encoding Initiative provide us with a model?! Ihr Wort in Gottes Ohr! > Peter Schreiner > (PS: I am NOT concerned with the details of transliteration or tagging; > Malten's system is beautifully unambiguous. But I would like to understand > the requirements for the "logic" of an electronic dictionary.) Unambiguity is indeed all that counts. On the whole I don't think it would take more than two days work to convert a (correctly) typed MW ascii text into a fully expanded and tagged lexical database. -Thomas Malten ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, Pohligstr.1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel 0221/4705340 Fax 0221/4705151 email ami01 at rrz.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From akp at calaf.cns.nyu.edu Sat Feb 18 00:45:11 1995 From: akp at calaf.cns.nyu.edu (Prashanth Kumar A.K.) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 19:45:11 -0500 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018616.23782.5465224121069359619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > My driver, a good Kannnadiga, says unhesitatingly that "sa.msaara" means > "family" to him. > > Dominik > I have heard the word used similarly in tamil also(sa.msaaram), at least in certain regional variations. Interestingly, in Malayalam,(which I have heard labelled as sanskritised tamil!) sa.msaaram is, I think, "talk" along the lines of a conversation. -Prashanth From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Fri Feb 17 20:30:37 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 20:30:37 +0000 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018610.23782.12108489688527101176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> s. kalyanaraman said: > mita (according to PaaNini) means 'measured' (root: maa); sometimed > mitra, 'friend' also gets contracted phonetically for e.g.: mit > (Hindi), mitt (Punjabi, Nepali); miit (Kumaoni) also mean 'friend'. One of my continuing regrets is that the articles of Prof. Thomas Burrow, my old teacher, have never been gathered and published. Some of them are really very good, and he had some startling things to say on some matters, both linguistic and historical, which never seem to have made it into the mainstream. Some of his articles dealt with 'maa' as a root, looking into the PIE antecedents and paying careful attention to the derivatives in Sanskrit usage. He came up with three historically distinct roots 'maa', which have been conflated since the time of the dhaatupaa.tha. If I recall correctly (I read the thing about fifteen years ago) they were 'to make, create', 'to deceive, make an illusion', and 'to measure'. I'm sorry that I can't refer you to the articles. I'm away from my normal reference works. > bhaasin means 'shining' (root: bhaa); e.g. pahaasai = shines (Prakrt); No, 'bhaasin' comes from the root 'bhaas'. 'bhaa' is obviously related, but different. 'bhaati', but 'bhaasate' Finally, I'd like to refer to Bhart.rhari, who claimed that meaning resides in whole sentences, and that words are only artificial abstractions from that unity. I love etymologizing as much as the next person, but etymology doesn't teach us about meaning. All these roots and parallels are not the primary way to arrive at an understanding of what something means. Only sentences can do that, as all lexicographers know well. Unfortunately, it is a lot more hard work diagnosing large numbers of appropriate sentences than working with roots and affixes. Dominik From bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU Sat Feb 18 20:34:57 1995 From: bhasin at UMDNJ.EDU (Pramit Bhasin) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 15:34:57 -0500 Subject: DHANYA VAAD Message-ID: <161227018619.23782.470759244257134676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > > Namaste > > I would like to take this opportunity to thank S. Kalyanaraman, Edeltraud > Harzer, Sascha Mundstien, Dominik Wujastyk, and Richard Salomon for their > insights into my query. > > I hope that I am not committing an email etiquette faux pas by thanking > people over the net. > > pramit bhasin > > > > > > From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sun Feb 19 09:54:39 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 95 09:54:39 +0000 Subject: ascii encoding for Vedic? Message-ID: <161227018627.23782.13280430552154482822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CSX was designed to have all the accent/vowel combinations necessary for Vedic. I would be grateful to hear of any shortcomings. Dominik From vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com Sun Feb 19 16:40:39 1995 From: vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com (vineet at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 95 11:40:39 -0500 Subject: Indology Research desk Message-ID: <161227018621.23782.13335617711040682227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am currently writing a proposal to make a research platform which an indologist can use for the research and related activities. I would like to know from the list members what all this piece of software should have and can optionally have. All suggestions and criticisms are most welcome. Thanks, Vineet INTERNET : vinet at gator.bocaraton.ibm.com From hal_computer at earthlink.net Mon Feb 20 08:06:00 1995 From: hal_computer at earthlink.net (hal_computer at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 00:06:00 -0800 Subject: QUERY: The Vedic rishi, Shandilya. Message-ID: <161227018624.23782.14487793440492253841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I hope this query is in keeping with the precepts of the mailing list. > >I am trying to find out anything about the rishi Shandilya. I have >checked the materials at the libraries at my University and have not been >able to uncover anything except that he was the authour of a few sections >of the Sathapatha Brahmana. > >If anyone can provide me with any information, I will greatly appreciate >it. If you are able to provide me with assistance, please email me >directly at . > >Thank you very much. > >Anshuman Pandey >University of Washington >Seattle, WA, USA > The subject is of interest to me, too, so if anyone possesses more information, please post to the list. Debashish Banerji From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 20 08:07:22 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 08:07:22 +0000 Subject: Tamil and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227018622.23782.4851943847063150856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In one of his postings, Mr. Kichenassamy asserted that "there is no contestation of the fact that Tamil and Sanskrit are unrelated (see Burrow and Emeneau's dictionary)". Now there is a contestation. I have demonstrated that about 4,000 of the so-called 5,000 Dravidian etyma in the Burrow and Emeneau's dictionary have no reason to exist independendently of their so-called Aryan counter-part etyma. In fact, they coalesce into the 12,500 etyma of the so-called Indo-Aryan and Santali/Mundarica/Sora languages. My theses are simple: (1) South Asia was a linguistic area which had a lingua franca, bhaaSaa circa 2500 BC (the date of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization), from which the so-called aryan-dravidian-munda streams emanated; (2) semantic structures are deeper than the surface grammatical structures in neural networks used for language evolution and expansion. Re: South Asian languages (25+): a multi-language, etymological dictionary on CD-ROM; Author: Dr. S. Kalyanaraman (After 1 March 1995:) 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 The monumental work is 2,500 pages in fine print. It has 8,000 head semantic-clusters which encompass over 1.5 million words. [Thus over 4000 headword of Burrow and Emeneau's Dravidian etyma coalesce into over 12,000 headwords of Turner's Indo-Aryan etyma and hundreds of Santali/Mundari/Sora lexemes to generate a semantic super-set of Vaak or Sarasvati or Braahmi which may be appropriate appellations for the ancient South Asian lingua franca.] The work was prepared on WordPerfect 5.1 and occupied 25MB of disk space. I do not know the publisher's price for the CD-ROM. This work which marks a change of paradigm in South Asian language studies, will be of interest to the indology group; for further details on the multi-media multi-language comparative dictionary of south asian languages, contact: Scanrom Publications, 401 Church Avenue, Cedarhurst, N.Y. 11516; Tel. 516-295-2237; 1-800-269-2237; Fax. 516-295-2240; 73760,1005 Compuserve From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Feb 20 22:22:09 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 14:22:09 -0800 Subject: Shandilya Message-ID: <161227018630.23782.4142721383893840056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Debashish Banerji forwarded the following: "I am trying to find out anything about the rishi Shandilya. I have checked the materials at the libraries at my University and have not been able to uncover anything except that he was the authour of a few sections of the Sathapatha Brahmana. ... . ... Anshuman Pandey" The following publications contain additional info on 'Saa.n.dilya: Citraava, Siddhe'svara-'saastri, Bhaarata-var.siiya praaciina caritra-ko'sa (Hindi. Poona: Bhaaratiiya Caritra-ko'sa Ma.n.dala, 1964) pp. 959-61 Jo'sii, Mahaadeva-'saastrii, Bhaaratiiya sa.msk.rti-ko'sa (Marathi. Pune:Bhaaratiiya sa.msk.rti-ko'sa-ma.n.da.l, 1976) vol. 9, pp.233-34. The page numbers would be different in the Hindi tr of this, which I vaguely recall in seeing some library. In addition, I would expect the reference works for the Mahaabhaarata and the Puraa.nas (Sorensen's Index to Names in Mahaabhaarta, Vettam Mani's Puraana Encyclopaedia etc) to have 'Sa.n.dilya as one of the entries. Not having them at hand, I cannot be certain. Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. Fax O: 822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Feb 20 22:38:39 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 14:38:39 -0800 Subject: Sun as kumuda-'satru Message-ID: <161227018631.23782.11893186938330127362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Dominik Wujastyk's inquiry: The Sun is indeed spoken of as enemy of kumuda and kairavas, just as he is spoken of as a friend of pu.n.dariikas, padmas, raajiivas, nalinas, sarojiniis (imagine here other words meaning 'water-born' and 'mud-born') and kamalas. The Moon is the friend of kumudas, kairavas and aravindas and foe of ku'se'sayas. Although at the moment I cannot recall any compound expression that would mean 'kumuda-enemy' or 'kumuda-destroyer' and be a synonym of the Sun, the following can be mentioned as giving expression to the enemical relationship between the Sun and the kumudas: kumudaany eva 'sa'saa.nkah (Abhij.naana-'saakuntala 5.28),antarhite ... ('Sar.ngadhara-paddhati 78), kumuda-vanam apa'sri ... ('Si'supaala-vadha 11.64), praacii.m vaasaka-sajjikaam ... , saurabhye calite ... (Subhaa.sita-ratna-bhaa.n.daagaara p. 325 verses 61, 64). Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. Fax O: 822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Mon Feb 20 16:17:32 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 16:17:32 +0000 Subject: "The enemy of the lotus" Message-ID: <161227018628.23782.3852297467081584508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anyone come across a synonym for the sun (suurya, arka) which means "enemy or killer of the lotus", i.e., kumudhaghnii, kumudahan, etc.? This would be antithetical to the names for moonlight such as "kumuda-bandhu, k-suh.rt, kaumudii" etc. Also, does the lotus, kumuda, *really* blossom in the moonlight, as is implied by the common term "kaumudii"? Dominik From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Feb 20 21:45:19 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (Kellner) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 21:45:19 +0000 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018625.23782.13602820658416346277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Still working on my directory of Tibetan/Buddhist/Indic Studies-resources on the Internet, I noticed that I hardly know anything about available e-texts. I am aware of the Ac at t@adhya at yi@ and various other texts at bcc.ac.uk, and of Prof. Tokunaga's Mahabharata and Ramayana, but beyond that, I haven't heard of any serious endeavours to make e-texts accessible. I myself use a number of e-texts in my own research, which is mainly Buddhist prama at n@a. Just to give you an idea: Those e-texts include Dharmaki at rti's Prama at n@ava at rttika (Miyasaka-ed.), ACIP's Tibetan translation of PV, Dharmaki at rti's Hetubindu, his Prama at n@avinic at caya I and II (and parts of III), his Nya at yabindu, parts of Dharmottara's Nya at yabindut@i at ka@, parts of Dharmottara's Prama at n@avinic at cayat@i at ka@, Jj at a@nac at ri@mitra's Ic at varasa@dhanadu at s@an at a, versions of the Vaic at es@ikasu at tras and the Nya at yasu@tras, the Nya at yabha@s at yam, the most of Kuma at rila's C at lokava@rttikam, considerable parts of Bhartr at hari's Va at kyapadi@ya...ad.lib. Most of these materials were given to me "in private", i.e. from benevolent colleagues who had either typed them themselves (or payed some of their students to type them..), or who had gotten them from other, also benevolent, colleagues. Also, most of these resources are by no means "critical editions" - they are simply transcripts from existent editions, whose main motivation is to facilitate the search for certain terms or quotations. Some of them might not even be spell-checked, but still, they serve a purpose. (Although, of course, spell-checked files are preferable) Judging from my own experience, I would assume that there is quite a broad "inofficial" channel for e-texts in various fields of Indology (and Tibetology, for that matter). And, I would like these channels to become at least a bit more public. It is always a major source of frustration, when I discover that I took the pains of typing something in (my wrists hate it, and the scanners around are simply not good enough), although somebody else had done the same work already, only I didn't know of it. This anxiety is, somehow, a major source of paranoia: Just imagine that somebody might be ruining his wrists right now typing the very same text that you would like to see on your screen... What I dream of (not literally) is some kind of (non-profit, of course) "stock exchange" for such inofficial e-texts. I could imagine setting up a list along the lines of "person x typed in text y", and if somebody looks for text y, he or she could simply e-mail person x and obtain it. I am somewhat hesitant to go further in terms of electronic publication, for I definitely do not want to infringe any copyrights whatsoever. I think such a "stock exchange" could really facilitate a lot of people's work, especially in the realm of tiring philological groundwork. Any suggestions welcome, Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima  From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Tue Feb 21 08:28:52 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 08:28:52 +0000 Subject: AKSHARAM & LIVING SANSKRIT in Bangalore, India Message-ID: <161227018633.23782.8757811856402646287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This recent posting on India Discussion Digest may of interest. Happy reading! S. Kalyanaraman. Date: Fri, 17 FEB 95 9:41:41 EST From: SHAMASS at ml.wpafb.af.mil (Shamasundar) Subject: Sanskrit is the "language of future" So said, Dr. Padiyar, a former successful internist, who ran a thriving nursing home of his own till recently. A scholar of sanskrit and vedic mathematics,Dr.S.N. Padiyar, gave up his career in medicine to join Aksharam, the Samskrita Vibhag of Hindu Seva Pratishtana, (Sanskrit Division of Hindu Service Foundation) as a full time voluntary worker. A THRILLING VISIT TO 'AKSHARAM' An urge to meet Dr. Padiyar made me to visit AKSHARAM, (**) a massive complex in Bangalore which is the hub of Sanskrit activities. It houses a Research wing, Library, Adio-Visual lab, Staff Quarters...From A to Z it is Sanskrit. I was astonished to see kids (may be 5-6 years old) of the resident staffers not only speaking but also playing in Sanskrit. In some corner of a libray I remember to have seen a picture of a Jewish Boy who spoke Hebrew after thousands of years. And it was considered the turning point for Jewish / Hebrew cultural/linguistic traditions. By that token, the revolution taking place at AKSHARAM is dramatic, eventful and magnificient. I spent 2 days in AKSHARAM and was greatly thrilled. For a while I felt as if I was Captain Picard of Space Ship Enterprise (the Star Trek fame) on a time machnie which entered the time of Kalidasa and Bhasa. The young instructors (SEVAVRATI as they are called) are a bundle of energy. The scale of plannig seemed to me quite big. The preparations are very carefully being planned and excecuted. For example Chandamama ( the famous cartoon strip) now comes in Sanskrit, There is monthly light reading mag Sandesh, the type of which is unheard of in Sanskrit, there are audio cassettes of nursary rimes and light sanskrit songs, very large number of books and instructional materials coming out almost every day. They enact quick'street-plays' in a corner of busy shopping center.. the theme of the play range of political satire, and critic of contemporaty society.... Currently, there is a massive 'Samskrita Abhiyana' going on in Kashi, where thousands of teachers have taken up a mission to teach the Sarala Samskrita to at least one hundred perons each. The teachers are geeting trained for this arduous task. I just had the opportunity to wtiness the preparations for the teachers training camp. But, was convinced the entire Abhiyana would be a great success.. did we hear that phrase Total Quality!!! (** AKSHARAM, 8th Cross, II Phase, Girinagar, Bangalore-560085); Tel. 91-80-661-3052 From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu Tue Feb 21 15:34:16 1995 From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:34:16 -0500 Subject: Indology Research desk Message-ID: <161227018641.23782.17495442291531874802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What would be the relationship of such a "research platform" to David Magier's Indology gopher, and to internet resources in India? Jim Hartzell From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu Tue Feb 21 15:37:48 1995 From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: QUERY: The Vedic rishi, Shandilya. Message-ID: <161227018637.23782.9587487572406980533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might try looking at John E. Mitchiner's "The Traditions of the Seven Rsis", Dehli, Motilal, 1982. Jim Hartzell From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu Tue Feb 21 15:50:16 1995 From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:50:16 -0500 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018639.23782.3137142055682729605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would heartily agree on the usefulness of something like this. I'd also like to suggest consideration of some sort of internet-accessible technical terminology dictionary; in particular this would be useful to develop for the rather extensive number and types of texts that were not read by the authors of the current standard dictionaries for Sanskrit and Tibetan, i.e, Monier-Williams (or was it Bothlink and Roth.....), Apte, and for Tibetan, Das and Jaschke. Virtually none of the tantras, for instance, nor their related sastras in Sanskrit and Tibetan, are represented in these dictionaries. Individuals translating such `unrepresented' texts could then contribute translated terms with citations. Over time, this could result in a vastly improved set of dictionaries. Jim Hartzell From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 21 19:40:23 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:40:23 -0800 Subject: "kaumudii" Message-ID: <161227018650.23782.17952738741765680242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While we're on kumuda/kaumudii, etc., I wonder if anyone can help with the following problem, which has me and some of my colleagues stumped: Verse 11.35 of the Hammira-mahaakaavya of Nayacandrasuuri contains the following description of the lakes as part of a kulaka describing the city of Ra.nastambhapura (Ranthambhor; here referred to by yat-): anaarata.m kaumudam aadadhaanaa.h sa.msevyamaanaa dvijaraajibhis' ca / mi.s.tai.h payobhi.h pratibhaasamaanaa vibhaanti yaagaa iva yat-ta.daagaa.h // The problem is what exactly is the sense, or rather senses, of kaumuda- here. Presumably it is meant to have a double sense, like dvija- 'birds/brahmans' and payas- 'water/milk', referring to both the lakes (ta.daaga-) and to sacrifices (yaaga-) to which they are being punningly compared. The primary sense of kaumuda- is obviously 'water lily'; but what does it mean with reference to something characteristic of a sacrifice? Any thoughts? Rich Salomon University of Washington On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Dominik Wujastyk writes: > > >Also, does the lotus, kumuda, *really* blossom in the moonlight, as is > >implied by the common term "kaumudii"? > > In Pali komudii is also taken as 'the full moon day in the month kattikaa' > (PED). On this Buddhaghosa comments (Sv I 139): > tadaa kira kumudaani supupphitaani honti. > > Lance Cousins. > > MANCHESTER, UK > Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 > > > > From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Tue Feb 21 12:18:51 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:18:51 +0000 Subject: "The enemy of the lotus" Message-ID: <161227018636.23782.7785717715168027943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 20 Feb 95 19:21:53, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Mon, > 20 Feb 1995 19:21:52 MET >Message-ID: <2f4906ef.uclblr at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in> >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:19:35 GMT >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Dominik Wujastyk >To: Members of the list >Subject: "The enemy of the lotus" >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list > > >Has anyone come across a synonym for the sun (suurya, arka) which means >"enemy or killer of the lotus", i.e., kumudhaghnii, kumudahan, etc.? >This would be antithetical to the names for moonlight such as >"kumuda-bandhu, k-suh.rt, kaumudii" etc. > >Also, does the lotus, kumuda, *really* blossom in the moonlight, as is >implied by the common term "kaumudii"? > >Dominik > > > > Dear Dominik, I remember an article by Wilhelm Rau on Sanskrit terms of lotus published in Festschrift Weller. Unfortunytely I do not have library facilities to be more precise but perhaps somebody else can help you with exact bibliographical data if necessary. Since Rau also studied botany he might discuss questions which interest you. Axel Michaels Axel Michaels Please note my new Adress: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Feb 21 20:32:46 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:32:46 -0800 Subject: R. Salomon's question Message-ID: <161227018653.23782.9121259713600365219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think in the verse concerned we should, on the yaaga side, take kaumudam as meaning 'full moon day of A'svina/Kaarttika' (a meaning attested in the dictionaries of Apte, Monier-Williams etc.) or as meaning 'kau # mudam, on earth ... delight' (a sabha.nga-'sle.sa). In the first case, the suggestion would be that the yaagas were so numerous that they turned all days into the bright full moon days of A'svina-Kaarttika. However, since this may imply the unlikely situation that the yaagas were performed at night, the second meaning should not be ruled out. Use of ku in the sense of 'earth' is not uncommon in Skt punning. Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. Fax O: 822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Tue Feb 21 11:49:00 1995 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (Francisco Javier Martinez Garcia) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:49:00 +0100 Subject: inofficial e-texts Message-ID: <161227018634.23782.6705076970163251826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Kellner > Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:59:52 GMT > To: Members of the list > Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? > > Still working on my directory of Tibetan/Buddhist/Indic Studies-resources on > the Internet, I noticed that I hardly know anything about available e-texts. I We are also interested in such texts. There is a Project since 1985, wich intends to collect all works of Indo-European Languages. ------------------------- "Thesaurus Indogermanischer Text- und Sprachmaterialien" (TITUS) Vorliegende und in Bearbeitung befindliche Texte (vorl?ufige Liste: Stand 26. Januar 1995) ............... A) alt-, mittel- und neuindisch: a) vedisch: Rgveda-Sa?hit?: Eingabe unter der Leitung von W.P. Lehmann (Austin, Texas) durch H.S. Ananthanarayana (Hyderabad); ?berarbeitungen durch S.D. Atkins (Pomona, California), G.E. Dunkel (Z?rich), J. Gippert und F.J. Mart?nez (Frankfurt) Rgveda (sandhifreie Version): Eingabe durch A. Lubotsky (Leiden) Aitareya-Br?hma?a: Eingabe durch J. Gippert und F.J. Mart?nez (Frankfurt) Taittir?ya-Sa?hit?: Eingabe durch M. Fushimi (Osaka); Korrektur durch Y. Ikari (Ky?t?) K??ha-Sa?hit?: Eingabe durch Chl.H. Werba (Wien; in Bearb.) Gobhila-Grhya-S?tra: Eingabe durch Carlos Jord?n C?lera, (Zaragoza) b) episches und klassisches Sanskrit: Tantr?khy?yika (Buch 1 und 2): Eingabe durch L.M. Fosse (Oslo) B) alt-, mittel- und neuiranisch: a) avestisch: Avesta-Gesamtcorpus: Eingabe (ohne Nirangistan) durch S. Gippert-Fritz und J. Gippert (Frankfurt); Erg?nzung um den Geldnerschen Variantenapparat unter der Leitung von R. L?hr (Jena; in Bearb.) Nirangistan: Eingabe nach der Edition Waag durch H. Kumamoto (T?ky?) b) altpersisch: Altpersisches Gesamtcorpus: Eingabe unter der Leitung von G.E. Dunkel durch S. Gindro, S. Scarlata, P. Widmer (alle Z?rich); Erg?nzungen durch G. Keydana (M?nster); ?berarbeitung durch J. Gippert (Frankfurt); c) mittelparthisch: Boyce, Reader: Eingabe durch J. Gippert; ?berarbeitung durch D.N. MacKenzie (G?ttingen) d) mittelpersisch: Boyce, Reader: Eingabe durch J. Gippert; ?berarbeitung durch D.N. MacKenzie (G?ttingen) K?rn?mag-? Arda??r-i P?bag?n: Eingabe durch D.N. MacKenzie (G?ttingen) M?n?g-? xrad: do. Ard?-vir?f-n?mag: Eingabe durch P. Vavrou?ek (Prag) Ay?dg?r-? Zar?r?n: Eingabe durch A. Cantera (Berlin; in Bearb.) Vid?vd?d-Pahlav?-?bersetzung: do. Viz?dag?h?-i Zadspram: Eingabe durch W. Paul (G?ttingen; in Bearb.) e) khotan-sakisch: Khotan-sakisches Corpus (Khotanese Buddhist Texts; Khotanese Texts 1-5; Book of Zambasta): Eingabe durch R.E. Emmerick (Hamburg); ?berarbeitung durch H. Kumamoto (T?ky?) Book of Zambasta: zweite Eingabe durch P. Vavrou?ek (Prag) f) sogdisch: Sogdisches Corpus (alles publizierte Material au?er M?ller-Lentz, Sogd.Texte II, Text 1-3): Eingabe durch N. Sims-Williams (Cambridge) Buddhistische und Manich?ische Texte: zweite Eingabe durch Y. Yoshida (T?ky?) C) anatolisch: a) hethitisch: Hethitische Ritualtexte: Eingabe durch Chr. Zinko (Graz) b) luvisch: Luvisches Corpus: Eingabe durch J. Tischler (Dresden) c) palaisch: Palaisches Corpus: do. d) lydisch: Lydisches Corpus: do. e) lykisch: Lykisches Corpus: do. f) phrygisch: Phrygisches Corpus: Eingabe durch A. Lubotsky (Leiden; in Bearb.) D) armenisch: 4 Evangelien und Psalter: Eingabe nach der Zohrab-Bibel durch H. Palan?ian (Montreal) 4 Evangelien: Eingabe nach der Edition K?nzle durch J. Weitenberg (Leiden) Movs?s Xorena?i: Eingabe durch H. Palan?ian (Montreal) Patmow?iwn vra?: do. Aganthangelos: Eingabe durch J. Gippert und R.-P. Ritter (Frankfurt; in Bearb.) ?arakno? und div. andere Texte: Eingabe durch H. Palan?ian (Montreal; in Bearb.) E) baltisch: Duonelaitis, Metai: Eingabe durch G. Keydana (M?nster) F) germanisch: a) gotisch: Gotische Bibel: Eingabe durch W. Griepentrog (N?rnberg) b) althochdeutsch: Otfrid: Eingabe unter der Leitung von R. L?hr durch R. Schuhmann, M. Bayer; Weiterbearbeitung durch J. Brysch; Korrekturlesungen durch A. Potthoff-Knoth, R. Schuhmann, S. Zeilfelder, A. Holzhauer (alle Gie?en) Isidor: Eingabe durch M? Pilar Fern?ndez Alvarez & M. M. Garc?a-Bermejo Giner (Salamanca); Konvertierungen durch J. Klinger (Bochum) und J. Tischler (Dresden); Weiterbearbeitung unter der Leitung von R. L?hr durch J. Brysch und R. Schuhmann (Gie?en) Benediktiner-Regel: Eingabe durch M? Pilar Fern?ndez Alvarez & M. M. Garc?a-Bermejo Giner (Salamanca); Konvertierungen durch J. Klinger (Bochum) und J. Tischler (Dresden); Weiterbearbeitung unter der Leitung von R. L?hr durch J. Brysch (Gie?en); Korrekturlesungen durch A. Potthoff-Knoth und Roland Schuhmann (Gie?en) Tatian: Eingabe durch M? Pilar Fern?ndez Alvarez & M. M. Garc?a-Bermejo Giner (Salamanca); Konvertierungen durch J. Klinger (Bochum) und J. Tischler (Dresden); Weiterbearbeitung unter der Leitung von R. L?hr durch J. Brysch und R. Schuhmann (Gie?en); Korrekturlesungen durch S. Zeilfelder und A. Potthoff-Knoth (Gie?en) dass., Pr?fatio Victoris Capuani / ?bersicht der Capitel?berschriften / Pariser Fragmente: Eingabe durch R. Schuhmann (Gie?en); Weiterbearbeitung durch J. Brysch (Gie?en) Notker: Eingabe unter der Leitung von R. L?hr (Jena; in Bearb.) G) griechisch: Septuaginta: Eingabe an der University of Pennsylvania Neues Testament: do. H) italisch: a) oskisch: Tabula Bantina: Eingabe durch J. Gippert (Frankfurt; in Bearb.) Cippus Abellanus: do. b) umbrisch: Tabulae Iguvinae: do. Umbrische Inschriften: do. I) keltisch: a) altirisch: Aided Oenfir A?fe; Compert Con Culainn; De chophur in da muccida; Esnada Tige Buched; Fled D?in na nG?d; Fingal R?n?in; Orgain denna r?g; Orgguin tr? Mac Diarmata Mic Cerbaill; Sc?la Cano Meic Gartn?in; Sc?la Mucce Meic Dath?; Serglige Con Culainn; T?in b? Fro?ch; Togail Bruidne d? derga: Eingabe durch D. Durkin (M?nster) W?rzburger Glossen: Eingabe durch J. Gippert (Frankfurt; in Bearb.) Wegen der Integration anderer bestehender Textdatenbanken bestehen bereits Absprachen mit: University of Toronto: Altenglisches Corpus Anfragen wegen einer Kooperation wurden au?erdem gerichtet an: University of California: Thesaurus Linguae Graecae; Universit?t Leiden: Leiden Armenian Database; Royal Irish Academy / University of Cork: CURIA (Textdatenbank irischer Texte); University of Oxford: diverse Corpora. Muneo Tokunaga, Ky?t?: Mah?bh?rata, R?m?ya?a Weitere geplante Beitr?ge: ?atapatha-Br?hma?a (M?dhya?dina-Rezension): Eingabe durch G. Knoll (Frankfurt; in Bearb.) ?atapatha-Br?hma?a (K??va-Rezension): Eingabe durch J. Gippert (Frankfurt; in Bearb.) Taittir?ya-Pr?ti??khya; Baudh?yana-?rautas?tra; ?pastamba-?rautas?tra; Taittir?ya-Br?hma?a: Makoto Fushimi, ?saka. RV-Khilani: Carlos Jord?n C?lera, Zaragoza. Pa?catantra; Hitopade?a; K?lid?sa, Kum?rasa?bhava; Nalopakhy?na; Dandin, Da?akum?racarita; Har?acarita: L.M. Fosse, Oslo Mah?va??a: J. Gippert (Frankfurt) Please contact with Prof.Dr. Jost Gippert, Universit?t Frankfurt, Postfach 11 19 32, D-60054 Frankfurt Tel.: +49-69-798 8591 oder 3139; Fax: +49-69-798 2873; e-mail: gippert at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de! -------END----------- ======================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Mart?nez Garc?a Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 798 2847 Universit?t Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 798 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 798 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de ======================================================================= From mdrosse at pobox.upenn.edu Tue Feb 21 18:25:30 1995 From: mdrosse at pobox.upenn.edu (mdrosse at pobox.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 13:25:30 -0500 Subject: request for information on your service Message-ID: <161227018647.23782.7674069211967059967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To whom it may concern, I am interested to find out more about: "indology at liverpool.ac.uk," what it is, what it does, who can gain access to it, and how one gains access to it, for example from a computer terminal in the library of the University of Pennsylvania, where I am now. I was given your internet address by another scholar, whose address is "Jwoo at sas.upenn.edu." and he also is interested in using "indology." Could you send the same reply to him? Any information you can give us in this regard will be highly appreciated. We are eager to get started! Thank you, Michael D. Rosse From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 21 21:32:48 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 13:32:48 -0800 Subject: R. Salomon's question Message-ID: <161227018655.23782.8892947215853087499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok, Thanks very much for your prompt and helpful response. Your second suggestion, i.e. kau # mudam, sounds quite convincing to me. -Rich On Tue, 21 Feb 1995 aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca wrote: > I think in the verse concerned we should, on the yaaga side, take kaumudam > as meaning 'full moon day of A'svina/Kaarttika' (a meaning attested in the > dictionaries of Apte, Monier-Williams etc.) or as meaning 'kau # mudam, on > earth ... delight' (a sabha.nga-'sle.sa). In the first case, the suggestion > would be that the yaagas were so numerous that they turned all days into > the bright full moon days of A'svina-Kaarttika. However, since this may > imply the unlikely situation that the yaagas were performed at night, the > second meaning should not be ruled out. Use of ku in the sense of 'earth' > is not uncommon in Skt punning. > > Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., > Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. > Fax O: > 822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca > > > From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Feb 21 22:05:30 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:05:30 -0800 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018658.23782.9685722919181881526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is an article that was posted to the India Discussion Digest by Dinesh Agarwal in regards to an alternative hypothesis on the origin of Indo-European languages and the "Aryan Invasion Theory." Anshuman Pandey University of Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 11:57 EST From: "Dinesh Agrawal" Subject: History of Indo-European languages and AIT, Part 1/2 The advocates of the Aryan Invasion theory very reluctantly accept that this theory has no future, and is sure to die its natural death. However, they propose an alternate theory of migration of a Aryan linguistic group from west to the east in order to explain the commonality among numerous European and north Indian languages. Such proposition is entailed from the false assumptions that the Vedic language was the earliest form of Indo-Aryan, that classical Sanskrit developed from the Vedic, that the Prakrits developed from Sanskrit, and the modern Indo-Aryan languages from these Prakrits. However, the fact of matter is that the earliest form of Indo-European speech was spoken in the interior of India, in prehistoric times. It spread out as far north and west as Kashmir and Afghanistan; the original language developed into at least three proto-languages: Proto-Outer-Indo-European (in northern Kashmir and Afghanis- tan), Proto-Central-Indo-European (in Southern Kashmir and Punjab), and Proto- Inner Indo-European (in inner India). In ancient, prehistoric times, the distribution of languages in India may have been roughly the same as it is today: viz. the Dravidian languages being spoken in the south, the Austric languages in the east, the Andamanese langua- ges in the Andaman Islands, the Burushaski language in a part of Kashmir, the Sino-Tibetan languages in the Himalayas and far eastern border areas, and the Indo-European languages certainly in more or less their present habitat in most northern India. Among the speakers of Indo-European languages, a great historical occurrence took place when a major part of the Indo-Europeans of south-eastern Uttar Prade sh migrated to the west and settled down in the northwestern areas - Punjab, Kashmir and the further north-west. Meanwhile there remained various Indo- Europeans still in the interior of India: the Yadus in northern Maharashtra, Gujarat and Western UP; Iksvakus in northeastern UP (and perhaps also in Dakshina Kosala in eastern MP); and Pramsus in Bihar, to name only those of them clearly mentined and described in the Puranas. The Purus developed the Vedic culture of the Punjab, while the other groups of Inner Indo-Europeans (alongwith the Austric and Dravidian language speakers) developed other religious and cultural elements integral to Hinduism and Indian culture. Meanwhile, major sections of Anus spread out all over Western Asia and developed into the various Iranian cultures. The Druhyus spread out into Europe in two instalments: the speakers of the proto-Germanic dialect first migrated northwards and then westwards, and then later the speakers of the proto- Hellenic and proto-Italo-Celtic dialects moved into Europe by a different, more southern, route. It is possible that the speakers of proto-Baltic and proto-Slavonic (or proto-Balto-Slavonic) (who left earlier, perhaps in the first wave of migration alongwith the speakers of proto-Germanic), and the speakers of proto-Illyrian and proto-Thraco-Phrygian (who left later alongwith the later Druhyu groups and the Iranians) were Anus and not Druyus - the Anus and Druhyus thus being, respectively, the speakers of proto-Saten and proto-Kentum. Vedic dialicts disappeared in course of time and their speech area (Punjab and its environs) was taken over by the Inner-Indo-European dialects. But long before that, they had set in motion a cult movement which covered the entire country. This Vedic cult finally also gave way but continued to remain in force as the elite layer of a pan-Indian religion of the Inner-Indo-Euro- peans and Dravidians. Classical Sanskrit was created by ancient grammarians (Panini was preceded by hundreds of others, many of whom are named by him in his Astadhyayi) to serve as a via media between the Vedic language and the Inner-Indo-European dialects which had developed together with the Dravian languages over the course of millenia and were therefore structurally different from the Vedic, and also had their own roots and words. Later the Prakrits came into vogue. Finally, the Inner dialects came into their own in the form of the new Indo- Aryan languages, as heavily Sanskritized as the Dravidian languages. And thus, India's cultural history embarked on a grand synthesis journey, which still continues. The above explanations and scenarios answer many problems philologists have faced and raised for around 200 years. It also settles the question of the cultural unity of India. The Aryans and Dravidians together shaped the languages and culture of India. (Source: Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalsism By S.G. Talageri, and The Hindu Phenomenon By Girilal Jain) From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Feb 21 22:43:12 1995 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:43:12 -0800 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018661.23782.10236482579518601042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SaMsAra in Bengali is used to mean, i) the human world, ii) the mundane existence, iii) the family, iv) the household, v) wife. "Punarjanma" means reincarnation in Bengali. . Mandakranta Bose, University of British Columbia. On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Lance Nelson wrote: > Since everyone is busy discussing the momentous issue of moderation, I > thought this might be a good time to ask a question that, however dumb, > relates to the actual subject matter of the list. > > I notice that in most English language textbooks, the word "saMsAra" is > given as the Indic translation of "reincarnation." However, I notice > that in my reading of VedAnta texts, "saMsAra" generally means something > more like "world." So, my question is: What is the correct translation > for the noun "reincarnation" (or, I suppose, "transmigration") in > Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages? Is there a word, such as > "punarjanma," that is actually in use to designate reincarnation without > reference to the cyclic world in which it occurs? > > --------------------------- > Lance Nelson > Religious Studies > University of San Diego > lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu > --------------------------- > > > > > From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue Feb 21 21:01:55 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 15:01:55 -0600 Subject: CSX codes and ambiguity Message-ID: <161227018656.23782.6818871660568942783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I cannot answer concerning the appearance or not of certain vowels etc. in actual Vedic, but the CSX fonts, at least those designed by Prof. Deshpande, were intended to represent not only what we might call "natural texts," that is Skt in use, but also to allow writing of grammatical texts, in which theoretical possibilities have to be taken into account. Therefore for example any vowel can be nasalized, etc. In Desphande's Manjushree-CSX font the vocalic accentuated l (k.lpti) can be obtained by SHIFT-OPTION 1. l with solid dot represents the Vedic consonant l, with hollow dot the vocalic l. Lower case o macron and e macron are also available in this font, which should serve for long o and e, respectively. So, if I understand the question correctly, at least the Manjushree-CSX is not ambiguous, nor does it have missing letters. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca Tue Feb 21 20:07:15 1995 From: brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca (J.K. Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 15:07:15 -0500 Subject: translating sanskrit, ibm to mac Message-ID: <161227018652.23782.8509985674113595956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to your letter. I have been working on MLS4 for some time and it is equipped by a program called CTIU which can be used for translating documents much in the same way that you described. ASCII tables of all langauge programmes used in MLS are available in the manual. I tried at one time to create an English to Sanskrit/Hindi conversion programme which is theoretically possible. As far as I can see this may be limited to only PC compatible programmes. Some problems arise because of half characters and matras as you point out. Most of this is not a great problem because they are written as overstrikes. It simply means that you have to write each individual syllable as single character consisting of possibly more than one ASCII character. Excuse my somewhat convoluted explanation but I hope that it is of some help. If you have any further questions do not hesitate. =.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.=.= Jan Brzezinski, PhD Centre for the Study of Religion University of Toronto =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Sadhunathan Nadesan wrote: > > Namaste distinguished scholars: > > I am working on a project for Hinduism Today and would appreciate > any advice. > > Mr. Satya Pal Sharma, of Vedic University, is translating certain > English texts into > Sanskrit (and Hindi) using MLS4 (multi lingual scholar), > a word processor for ibm compatibles that supports Devanagari > letters. I have to convert these texts to be readable by a > Mac word processor using the Ecological Linguistics Devanagari > font. The problem is compounded by the fact that I do not know > Sanskrit, and Mr. Sharma's English is somewhat limited. > > My approach: have Mr. Sharma type up the alphabet, export to > ascii, and do a hex dump to see what the ascii numbers are. Do > the same thing on the Mac, and compare. Write a translation > program between the two sets of numbers. Then figure out how to > take a plain ascii file and make a resource fork for it on the Mac, > so it can be read by the Mac word processor. > > The dilema may be that there are half charaters and matras > in Sanskrit which can be combined with other characters or > half characters to give a huge number of possible letters. Mr. > Sharma tried to explain this to me, but I'm not sure I understood > it. > > One thing that would be helpful would be a complete list of > all possible Devanagari letters, with their specific names. > In this way I could get a comprehensive alphabet from both > word processors, and make sure the translation was precise > (rather than relying on the pictorial form of the letter, and > risking an error because of my untrained eye). Anyone know of > such a list? > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions, > > Regards, > Sadhunathan Nadesan > > From ssarker at knox.edu Tue Feb 21 21:20:31 1995 From: ssarker at knox.edu (Sonita Sarker) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 15:20:31 -0600 Subject: Chicago MLA 1995 and projected anthology Message-ID: <161227018683.23782.15194080944683632332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Modern Language Association Annual Meeting December 27-31, 1995 Chicago, Illinois CALL FOR PAPERS FOR PROPOSED PANEL: Filling in the Blanks: Space in South/Southeast Asian Feminist Narratives We invite proposals/papers that focus on the significance of space -- physical, geopolitical, temporal, psychic, social -- in South/Southeast Asian feminist narratives by men and women. The emphasis is on the interpretation of space within the particular cultural contexts, both inside, between and outside defined boundaries. In this respect, one might also consider how shifts in geographical and historical experiences such as colonization, independence, nation-formation, migration, transnationalism and cosmopolitanism formulate and affect these narratives (fiction, poetry, autobiography, travel writing, film, photography, painting, sculpture, etc.)? How do the writers map on to spatial metaphors conflicts of gender, race and class? Do/can writers suspend their narratives in a space freed from time? Could their work contribute to an international feminism; is the latter even possible? Papers might consider enforced and chosen exile; spatial histories of women's bodies (how they are clothed, sexualized, placed and timed); politics within and between transparent private spaces; gender and property; territoriality in spatial designs; a feminist, anti-imperialist gaze. Countries under this rubric include Thailand, Malaysia, Burma, Nepal, India, Laos, Indonesia, Singapore, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines. Submissions will be considered for a prospective anthology. Deadline for 1-page proposals and/or drafts of papers: March 15, 1995 Send a copy of proposals/drafts to both: Sonita Sarker Esha De Box K-22 Women's Studies Center, UCLA Department of English 40872 Marty Terrace Knox College Fremont, CA 94539 Galesburg, IL 61401 E-mail: sde at scuacc.scu.edu E-mail: ssarker at knox.knox.edu or idr2end at mvs.oac.ucla.edu From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Tue Feb 21 15:57:57 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 15:57:57 +0000 Subject: "kaumudii" Message-ID: <161227018642.23782.13335242882083727814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: >Also, does the lotus, kumuda, *really* blossom in the moonlight, as is >implied by the common term "kaumudii"? In Pali komudii is also taken as 'the full moon day in the month kattikaa' (PED). On this Buddhaghosa comments (Sv I 139): tadaa kira kumudaani supupphitaani honti. Lance Cousins. MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Tue Feb 21 22:35:50 1995 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 17:35:50 -0500 Subject: Indology Message-ID: <161227018660.23782.17280111496744416270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael and Jeson, Several of us at Penn belong to the Indologist list, which is supposed to be dedicated to scholarly discussions on classical Indology. I have the instructions on how to join in my office, which I will forward to you both when I get back to town from the mountains. -- Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Tue Feb 21 17:00:12 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 18:00:12 +0100 Subject: ascii encoding for Vedic? Message-ID: <161227018644.23782.2504973189973390157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > CSX was designed to have all the accent/vowel combinations necessary for > Vedic. I would be grateful to hear of any shortcomings. > > Dominik In CSX there is a bit of confusion with the various letters for l . The long vocalic l seems to me of no use (or does it occur anywhere?!) but we have it there uppercase and lowercase. Then there is the underlined l for Tamil what is I hope the same which most members of the list transcribe ZH. So besides plain l two other l's are there: l with tilda and underdotted l. I do not know which was meant to represent which, but underdotted l is normally used for Vedic and Tamil cerebral (retroflex) l therefore for vocalic l in Skt we need l with that little circle under it. As it is not obvious which is which of the mentioned two the text exchange in CSX becomes problematic, everyone may use the l codes for different sounds. But STILL ONE L IS MISSING! It is the vocalic ACCENTUATED l , which occurs in the word klpti (k.lpti) as it is indicated in MW dictionary, MacDonell's grammar etc. Also it remains unclear for me, which codes of the CSX do its users use to represent long Tamil e and o, which is normally written "overdotted" as well as other long vowels. That's what is missing or is ambiguous in CSX. ((But as I need to create my personal encoding which provides me very little free codes to overwrite unless I overwrite also all grafic signs, my question remains whether all the letters with svarita really exist. In grammars I found examples for o, long a, but just one for long u (s-udg-atar from TS) and I do not know if e,u,i and long u,i occur with svarita in the pada texts or only in samhita text due to sandhi or some of them not at all. If someone knows examples for them or knows (having electronical version) that for example i with svarita does not occur in RV at least, please let me know.)) Jakub Cejka, Prague -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Tue Feb 21 17:47:39 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 18:47:39 +0100 Subject: search for works on Amre.dita Message-ID: <161227018645.23782.4620466286648881246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I am looking for any bibliographical references of articles etc. dealing with the sanskrit (and particularly Vedic) amre.ditas (iterative compounds). I have read Delbrueck, Wackernagel which say a bit more about it, and then only brief words in Whitney's, MacDonell's, Thumb-Hauschild's grammars. It is especially difficult for me to find out whether anybody recently published some further opinions on this topic or other material than what was collected by Collitz. Thanks for any info on this topic Jakub Cejka, student of indology, Prague -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Wed Feb 22 00:06:13 1995 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 19:06:13 -0500 Subject: search for works on Amre.dita Message-ID: <161227018663.23782.7762186199786096464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Jakub Cejka wrote: > Dear members, > > I am looking for any bibliographical references of articles etc. dealing > with the sanskrit (and particularly Vedic) amre.ditas (iterative compounds). > I have read Delbrueck, Wackernagel which say a bit more about it, and then > only brief words in Whitney's, MacDonell's, Thumb-Hauschild's grammars. It > is especially difficult for me to find out whether anybody recently > published some further opinions on this topic or other material than what > was collected by Collitz. > As far as I am aware, as I found out from my former prof. James Benson, there really has not been much written about this. They are rather interesting compounds within Panini's system (8.1.1 to about 15, I don't have my copy of the Ashtadhyayi at hand). You might want to check Cardona's work on Panini. If you get more bibliography, I would appreciate a forward with the information. Carlos Lopez Harvard University Dept. of Sanskrit From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Feb 21 18:42:10 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 19:42:10 +0100 Subject: search for works on Amre.dita Message-ID: <161227018649.23782.172945989648039165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear members, > >I am looking for any bibliographical references of articles etc. dealing >with the sanskrit (and particularly Vedic) amre.ditas (iterative compounds).. >I have read Delbrueck, Wackernagel which say a bit more about it, and then >only brief words in Whitney's, MacDonell's, Thumb-Hauschild's grammars. It >is especially difficult for me to find out whether anybody recently >published some further opinions on this topic or other material than what >was collected by Collitz. I think Walter Wuest mentions amreditas in Walther Wust (1928). Stilgeschichte und Chronologie des Rigveda. Leipzig, Deutsche Morgenlandische Gesellschaft (Brockhaus). Abhandlungen fur die Kunde des Morgenlandes. Vol. XVII, Nr. 4. xvi + 172 pages. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Wed Feb 22 04:47:37 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 23:47:37 -0500 Subject: Symposium on Indian Religions Message-ID: <161227018667.23782.18001835543016679261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This letter is mysterious. Wha the heck is the Symposium on Indian Religions? Where is it? I mean, which country and province? What happens there? If everybody else but me knows the answer to these questions, just leave me in my ignorance. Robin Kornman rkornman at pucc.princeton.edu >Julia Leslie recently posted information about the forthcoming Twentieth Symposium on >Indian Religions and asked that someone should supply the name of the convener. He >is in fact Dr Peter Connolly (West Sussex Inst. of Higher Education). However, >bookings should be made to Christopher Aslett, Chester College of Higher Education, >Cheyney Road, Chester CH1 4BJ. I have returned my own booking form, so I cannot >give details of cost of accommodaton and/or meals, but I do remember that the >registration fee is #15 (#7.50 for students). > >Yours > >John Brockington > > > From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 22 08:44:46 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:44:46 +0000 Subject: Internet connection in Madras, India Message-ID: <161227018664.23782.13163186225193264817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies for this repeat posting; anxiety? aas~aa! I am returning from Manila to Madras. I need to connect my PC at home to the internet, at least for e-mail. Please help me with info. on (1) is this possible? (2) who should I contact there? Thanks and best wishes. I have truly benefited from and enjoyed my membership in the indology group. Let us hope that we may someday meet in India c/o CP Ramaswami Indological Research Institute. namaskaaram. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 (After 1 March 1995). From dran at cs.albany.edu Wed Feb 22 13:47:24 1995 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:47:24 -0500 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018675.23782.14641940019904398342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Do any of the INDOLOGY members who are professional university-level > teachers of Sanskrit, Old Persian, Greek, Tamil, archaeology, or other > relevant topics, have time to put together a short, careful response to > such claims, pointing out the principle evidence for the received > opinion concerning Indian pre-history? I'd like to see this too. The ideas must be discussed (and refuted if wrong) irrespective of the motives of their proponents. This is what was done with Creationism and, more recently, with "The Bell Curve." Narendran From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Wed Feb 22 09:38:30 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:38:30 +0000 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018669.23782.9129540208524086170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anshuman Pandey said: [...] > The above explanations and scenarios answer many problems philologists > have faced and raised for around 200 years. It also settles the question > of the cultural unity of India. The Aryans and Dravidians together shaped > the languages and culture of India. > (Source: Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalsism By S.G. Talageri, and > The Hindu Phenomenon By Girilal Jain) We are going to go on getting this sort of material periodically posted to INDOLOGY for the simple reason that the ideas are out there, being energetically promoted by Hindu fundamentalists and others who may not realize the sinister communalist and anti-muslim agenda that underlies and accompanies such propaganda. Do any of the INDOLOGY members who are professional university-level teachers of Sanskrit, Old Persian, Greek, Tamil, archaeology, or other relevant topics, have time to put together a short, careful response to such claims, pointing out the principle evidence for the received opinion concerning Indian pre-history? Or perhaps someone already has a document of this kind on their PC? Perhaps someone has written some book reviews of the above books or the materials by Frawley, Kak, or similar contemporary writers? I feel sure that someone amongst us who deals professionally with PIE, historical phonology, early archaeology, etc., has the appropriate materials readily to hand. The resulting statement could be added to the files available from the INDOLOGY file-server, or could be sent on an individual basis to enquirers. This would be a singular service to INDOLOGY. Dominik From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 22 09:58:24 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:58:24 +0000 Subject: Logistic support from Madras, India to indology members Message-ID: <161227018666.23782.11466645307625947583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indology members, I am sad at the prospect of my leaving this vibrant group on 27 February 1995. I look forward to be of some help to you from Madras, India. In case you need any references or material, which may be readily available from India, please do fax me or call me on phone. I will try my best to respond to you as soon as possible. Thanks a million again. dhanyosmi. Dr. Dominik, please, please do not shut this group down!! You have set in place something magnificent; PaaNini did not have internet; imagine how much more influential he would have been to enrich the bhaashaa if only this unparalleled, towering intellect and his scintillating aphorisms could have reached out to the vernaculars! Unlike Dr. Dominik who is presently emailing from Bangalore, I may not have access to e-mail from Madras. So, bear with me for any delays caused by bureaucracies and of course, my own frailties and limitations. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 or reach me c/o CP Ramaswami Institute of Indological Research, 1 Eldams Road, Madras 600-018; Fax. 91-44-450656; Tel. 91-44-451-2497/458726 From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Wed Feb 22 16:02:14 1995 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 10:02:14 -0600 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018678.23782.4872535723756217254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Do any of the INDOLOGY members who are professional university-level >> teachers of Sanskrit, Old Persian, Greek, Tamil, archaeology, or other >> relevant topics, have time to put together a short, careful response to >> such claims, pointing out the principle evidence for the received >> opinion concerning Indian pre-history? > >I'd like to see this too. The ideas must be discussed (and >refuted if wrong) irrespective of the motives of their >proponents. This is what was done with Creationism and, more >recently, with "The Bell Curve." > To those on this list who know nothing of it (most likely, those not in the US), "The Bell Curve" is a recently-published book by sociologists Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, which, among other things, argues that IQ is largely an inherited trait. This, coupled with their finding (based on data) that IQs of various ethnic groups followed a Bell Curve distribution, with the mean IQs being highest for Asians, followed by whites, and then blacks (some 15 points lower than whites), set off a furious fire-storm of controversy. Numerous refutations have been published, usually as a part of a hostile review of the book. Absolutely unrelated to Indology, but since it was mentioned, I thought it would be worth illuminating so people on this list who are unfamiliar with it aren't left scratching their heads. Srinivas Sunder Austin, TX From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Wed Feb 22 11:36:44 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:36:44 +0000 Subject: ascii encoding for Vedic? Message-ID: <161227018670.23782.18093487476696921676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jakub Cejka said: > In CSX there is a bit of confusion with the various letters for l . The long > vocalic l seems to me of no use (or does it occur anywhere?!) but we have it > there uppercase and lowercase. I'm afraid grammarians talk about this letter, mainly in order to deny its existence. > Then there is the underlined l for Tamil what > is I hope the same which most members of the list transcribe ZH. Yes. > So besides > plain l two other l's are there: l with tilda and underdotted l. I do not > know which was meant to represent which, but underdotted l is normally used > for Vedic and Tamil cerebral (retroflex) l therefore for vocalic l in Skt we > need l with that little circle under it. The tilde indicates a nasalized l; the underdotted one is vocalic l. Yes, we need an accented version of vocalic l put into CSX. There is no special letter for the "dark" l of Vedic and Marathi, and perhaps this needs to be remedied. > Also it remains unclear for me, which codes of the CSX do its users use to > represent long Tamil e and o, which is normally written "overdotted" as well > as other long vowels. E and o with macrons. Or have I missed something in your question? Thank you very much for your observations. Perhaps at the next Sanskrit meeting a few of us could get round a table and discuss revisions to CSX. Dominik From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Feb 22 16:52:11 1995 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:52:11 -0500 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018680.23782.4763664428607367884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can perhaps start from Mallory's "In search of Indo-Europeans" and attempt to put together a coherent model for IE expansion into India. However the problem seems to be that the 'received wisdom' sometimes conflicts with evidence. It is essential that all possible errors be eliminated. Here are some of the errors that rankle me: Foremost is use of uncaliberated C14 dates together with dates based on texts. It won't do to use the uncaliberated date for the end of the Urban phase of Indus Valley civilization with the usual dating of vedic texts. Here one should be careful in using dates lifted from archaeological papers: Many Soviet authors seem to have given uncaliberated dates only (in publications on the archaeology of Central Asia), without noting what kind of dates they are using. Another error that philologists seem to still make is to assume that nomadic pastoralism preceeded agriculture. It wouldn't do to claim that RgVedic Aryans were not acquainted with agriculture and then to derive them from Andronovans. According Kohl, "Central Asia", there is evidence for irrigation and agriculture at Andronovan settlements dated to ~1600 BCE. It is essential that such irrelevant errors be eliminated from any write-up. Otherwise, they would be criticized on the basis of such errors, negating their purpose. From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Wed Feb 22 11:00:32 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 12:00:32 +0100 Subject: once more about CSX Message-ID: <161227018672.23782.7952734118938077455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk responded to my question > > Also it remains unclear for me, which codes of the CSX do its users use to > > represent long Tamil e and o, which is normally written "overdotted" as well > > as other long vowels. > > E and o with macrons. Or have I missed something in your question? I got acquainted with CSX by FTPing it from ftp.bcc.ac.uk I think, and the font is named CSX.VGA. I really cannot find there e,o with macrons! There is only e,o with the sign (don't know its name) for short vowel (a crescent or halfcircle over the vowels). Do I have some outdated version of this font? Also, Jonathan Silk mentioned Prof.Deshpande's Manjushree-CSX font, what kind of font is this? Are there several variants of CSX ? Can CSX be considered really an interindological encoding, to which one should export his files to make them most easy to share? Jakub Cejka -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Feb 22 22:02:05 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 14:02:05 -0800 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018684.23782.5141605302715142538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk and other subscribers, I would like to point out the fact that I just sent the article to INDOLOGY as I thought it would be of some interest to the subscribers. I would like to emphasize that the article was not drawn up by myself, and thus do not wish to be implicated with it. For those interested and those concerned, the individual who wrote the article is Dinesh Agarwal who may be contacted at . Thank you. Anshuman Pandey University of Washington From magier at columbia.edu Wed Feb 22 19:26:01 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (SOUTH ASIA GOPHER) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 14:26:01 -0500 Subject: MLA panel: Space in S.Asia Feminist Narrative (CFP) Message-ID: <161227018681.23782.11470662584614398534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This notice is being forwarded to your listserv from the Events listings of The South Asia Gopher. For any further information please contact the event organizers as listed. DO NOT CONTACT DAVID MAGIER or THE SOUTH ASIA GOPHER for information on this event. Thank you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From apandey at u.washington.edu Wed Feb 22 22:46:58 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 14:46:58 -0800 Subject: The Aryan Problem and the Puranas - by Dinesh Agrawal Message-ID: <161227018686.23782.9962548907085179445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PLEASE NOTE: The article which follows are the opinions of Dinesh Agrawal, NOT MINE. Mr. Agrawal may be reached at . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 21:50 EST From: "Dinesh Agrawal" Subject: Aryan Problem and the Puranas The proponents of the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) reject the evidence in Pura- nas against AIT on the basis of the so-called 'evidence' in support of AIT in Rigveda. This peculiar situation is developed due to the misinterpretation of the Vedic hymns which appear to have been composed mainly in the Saptasindhu region in and around Punjab, and do not appear to mention in detail the places to the far east and south of the region as mentioned in Puranas. And hence reject the testimony of Puranas. This situation is without parallel anywhere else in the world. In the study of the history of the Jews of ancient Israel, for example, no one would even dream of trying to reconstruct the history from those parts of the Old Testament, such as the Book of Psalms, which do not profess to deal with this history, rather than from those parts, such as the Chronicles, which do. And yet, in the case of ancient Indian history, the scholars unblushingly reject the evidence of the Puranas on the basis of "evidence" inferred from the Rigvedic hymns! The Rigveda is a book of hymns of rishis of the Saptsindhu, and kings who came into intimate contact with this region. It neither is, nor claims to be, either a geographical mannual or a historical treatise. The Puranas, on the other hand, are, and claim to be, historical treatises giving a well maintained record of the ancient historical traditions of the prominent rishis and kings, and the major dynasties, of the major part of northern India upto the Maha- bharat war. And as a matter of fact, there is no conflict between the accounts/ evidence presented in Vedas and in Puranas either in geographical terms or in chroniclising of various dynasties. However, there is a natural difference which flows from the different aims (hymnology and traditional historiography, respectively) and the different geographical vistas of the Vedic and Puranic streams of literature. Thus the Rigveda refers to kings and rishis of the Punjab region who may not have been really important enough to be noted by the Puranas; while the Puranas contain the names of kings and rishis who may never have ventured near the Saptasindhu region at all, or were not significant enough, in the eyes of the composer-rishis of the hymns, to be mentioned anywhere in any manner. Thus, of the 4 relevant dynasties, the Pramsu dynasty is located by the Puranas farthest away from the Punjab (in western Bihar), and no king is des- cribed as coming into contact with the Punjab region. Appropriately the Rigveda does not mention the name of any Pramsu king. The Iksvaku dynasty is located by the Puranas slightly closer to the Punjab (i.e. Ayodhya), and some of the kings are described as coming into contact with the Punjab, the first king being Mandhatr (generation 21). Appropriately, he is the first Iksvaku king whose name appears in the Rigveda, the kings before him being unknown to the hymns. The Sudyumna dynasty is originally located by the Puranas in souther-eastern UP, but then the Puranas describe this dynasty as moving right into the Punjab region and settling down there. Appropriately, the Rigveda mentions most of the early kings: Pururavas, Ayu, Nahusa, Yayati, Puru, etc. The Saryati dynasty, which either ended with him or migrated southwards to Gujarat, is located by the Puranas in the west of India. Appropriately, Saryati (generation 2) is mentioned in the Rigveda. In respect of the five dynasties which are classified as Saudyumna also, the same case prevails. The Rigveda mentions the names of all the five dynasties (Puru, Anu, Druhyu, Yadu and Turvasu/Turvasa), but s far as the actual kings of the dynasties are concerned. Thus, in every case, those kings of the Puranic genealogies, who are found mentioned in the Rigveda, are precisely those kings who are described, in the traditional accounts of the Puranas, as being closely associated with the Punjab. All these cannot be coincidences. On the basis of such incontrovertible evidence of the joint testimony of the Rigveda and Puranas, it can be concluded that different dynasties ruled in different parts of the northern India (upto at least Bihar in the east and northern maharashtra in the south) during, and even before, the composition of the majority of the hymns of the Rigveda; AND THAT THE MOVEMENT OF THESE DYNASTIES TOOK PLACE FROM EAST TO WEST, AND NOT VICE VERSA. Thus, we have seen that the joint testimony of the Rigveda and the Puranas confirms the basic validity of the geographical details given in the Puranas regarding the locations and movements of the various dynasties. Since many of these movements antedate the composition of the Rigveda, it seems logical to presume that the Puranas should also contain clues as to the location of the original homeland of the Indo-European language-family, and of the intial stages of the dispersion of these languages from their original homeland. The further details on the above issues and movement of linguistic trends are found in Talageri's book: Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalism. It would suffice here to give his conclusion:"...the cold hard fact is that the Puranas provide incontrovertible evidence that the Ultimate Indo-European Homeland lay spread out over the expanse of northern India, and that the Origi- nal Homeland of the Vedic Aryans, the Iranians and the Western Indo-Europeans (i.e. the place where a migrant branch of the original Indo-Europeans from the east, split into these various peoples) lay in north-western India: in the Punjab, Kashmir and northwest. From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 22 14:48:17 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 14:48:17 +0000 Subject: "kaumudii" Message-ID: <161227018674.23782.12441933182598674737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On kumuda and lilies: Let me present a 'bhaashaa' perspective to the interesting, superb and lively exchanges on this subject. First, why is kumuda linked to yaagaa? Perhaps because, both close by day? Second, if kumuda = white water lily is etymologically linkable with kuvala = blue water lily, a fascinating link with Kurux language exists. kumbRu'uu = half-open as a bud. Of course, Tamil kuvaLai is a blue nelumbo which also closes by day. Third, the metaphors in the various verses seem to refer to the full moon day of As~vina-kaartikaa as suggested by Prof. Aklujkar and also to this characteristic of the lily's closure by night and opening of the bud as it draws in the sun's rays. Fourth, another 'imaging' characteristic is absorbed semantically, for e.g. Tamil kuuppu = joining palms in a lotus-like closure-posture to salute. Thus, I suggest that kOvaL, kOhaL, kOmaLe of Kannada can be 'semantically clustered' with Skt. Pali. kumuda, kaumudii as a classic example of semantic expansion around the images of a lily and its bud's unique blossoming features. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: "kaumudii" Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 22/02/1995 1:20 PM While we're on kumuda/kaumudii, etc., I wonder if anyone can help with the following problem, which has me and some of my colleagues stumped: Verse 11.35 of the Hammira-mahaakaavya of Nayacandrasuuri contains the following description of the lakes as part of a kulaka describing the city of Ra.nastambhapura (Ranthambhor; here referred to by yat-): anaarata.m kaumudam aadadhaanaa.h sa.msevyamaanaa dvijaraajibhis' ca / mi.s.tai.h payobhi.h pratibhaasamaanaa vibhaanti yaagaa iva yat-ta.daagaa.h // The problem is what exactly is the sense, or rather senses, of kaumuda- here. Presumably it is meant to have a double sense, like dvija- 'birds/brahmans' and payas- 'water/milk', referring to both the lakes (ta.daaga-) and to sacrifices (yaaga-) to which they are being punningly compared. The primary sense of kaumuda- is obviously 'water lily'; but what does it mean with reference to something characteristic of a sacrifice? Any thoughts? Rich Salomon University of Washington On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Dominik Wujastyk writes: > > >Also, does the lotus, kumuda, *really* blossom in the moonlight, as is > >implied by the common term "kaumudii"? > > In Pali komudii is also taken as 'the full moon day in the month kattikaa' > (PED). On this Buddhaghosa comments (Sv I 139): > tadaa kira kumudaani supupphitaani honti. > > Lance Cousins. > > MANCHESTER, UK > Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 > > > > From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Wed Feb 22 16:47:13 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 16:47:13 +0000 Subject: Vrtra : an earth bund? Message-ID: <161227018677.23782.10450755544446839994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some time back, Dr. J. B. Bapat of Monash University had posted an inquiry on this subject. He had noted that it was claimed in a paper in a conference that, vedic Vrtra was an earthen bund formed by tectonic shifting in the Indus region. Were there any responses to this inquiry? If some references to soma are allegorical, could the term 'vrtra' also be interpreted similarly? Dr. S. Kalyanaraman From jwoo at sas.upenn.edu Thu Feb 23 03:33:21 1995 From: jwoo at sas.upenn.edu (jwoo at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 22:33:21 -0500 Subject: Indology Message-ID: <161227018688.23782.10456215271670387044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.Rocher: How are you? We all miss you and your husband a lot. Thank you very much for sending a e-mail to me. Now, I try to get some more information through e-mail, as you do. I subscribed my address to Indology with help of Kengo. Thank you again. And we hope, we see you soon. Sincerely, From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Thu Feb 23 03:55:46 1995 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 22:55:46 -0500 Subject: Indology Message-ID: <161227018691.23782.4125134649365771903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jeson, Thanks for your message. I hope that your shared information on how to subscribe to Indology with Michael Rosse. It will be fun to talk with one another, along with a lot of other scholars, about Indology matters via Liverpool, England. My husband joins me in sending warm regards. Affectionately, -- Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Thu Feb 23 08:16:39 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:16:39 +0000 Subject: pra mit ? - an inquiry Message-ID: <161227018689.23782.1796527175878388831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhartrhari's theories of meaning are linguistic-philosophy par excellence (there are excellent works in English by Prof. K.Subramanian of Lucknow?). Indology members may also be aware of Prof. Kunjunni Raja's (now with Adyar Library, Madras) work on Indian Theories of Meaning. I agree with Dr. Dominik entirely. Lexemes are but a starter, if we put together sentences, we will end up writing thick monographs for each lexeme! I suppose lexical entries are like an executive summary of 'meanings' which of course, takes to tango: the 'talker' and the 'listener'. Teachers argue for hours explaining nuances of meanings. When roots grow into mammoth trees, it is certainly easy to miss the wood for the trees. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: pra mit ? - an inquiry Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 22/02/1995 6:54 PM s. kalyanaraman said: > mita (according to PaaNini) means 'measured' (root: maa); sometimed > mitra, 'friend' also gets contracted phonetically for e.g.: mit > (Hindi), mitt (Punjabi, Nepali); miit (Kumaoni) also mean 'friend'. One of my continuing regrets is that the articles of Prof. Thomas Burrow, my old teacher, have never been gathered and published. Some of them are really very good, and he had some startling things to say on some matters, both linguistic and historical, which never seem to have made it into the mainstream. Some of his articles dealt with 'maa' as a root, looking into the PIE antecedents and paying careful attention to the derivatives in Sanskrit usage. He came up with three historically distinct roots 'maa', which have been conflated since the time of the dhaatupaa.tha. If I recall correctly (I read the thing about fifteen years ago) they were 'to make, create', 'to deceive, make an illusion', and 'to measure'. I'm sorry that I can't refer you to the articles. I'm away from my normal reference works. > bhaasin means 'shining' (root: bhaa); e.g. pahaasai = shines (Prakrt); No, 'bhaasin' comes from the root 'bhaas'. 'bhaa' is obviously related, but different. 'bhaati', but 'bhaasate' Finally, I'd like to refer to Bhart.rhari, who claimed that meaning resides in whole sentences, and that words are only artificial abstractions from that unity. I love etymologizing as much as the next person, but etymology doesn't teach us about meaning. All these roots and parallels are not the primary way to arrive at an understanding of what something means. Only sentences can do that, as all lexicographers know well. Unfortunately, it is a lot more hard work diagnosing large numbers of appropriate sentences than working with roots and affixes. Dominik From naru at crlmail.uchicago.edu Thu Feb 23 14:31:48 1995 From: naru at crlmail.uchicago.edu (naru at crlmail.uchicago.edu) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:31:48 -0600 Subject: Project to preserve 20th-century Indian monographs Message-ID: <161227018697.23782.15350029041274009687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following excerpt from a press release by the Center for Research Libraries may be of interest to some members of INDOLOGY. The National Endowment for the Humanities has awarded a grant to the Center for Research Libraries (CRL) on behalf of the South Asia Microform Project (SAMP) for "Microfilming and Cataloging Early Twentieth-Century Indian Monographs." The purposes of this project are to make more widely accessible and to preserve a body of the most significant early twentieth-century publications of India in Marathi, Gujarati, Sindhi, Konkani, and English, the major languages of western India. Titles for the project will be selected from _The National Bibliography of Indian Literature: 1901-1953_, edited by B. S. Kesavan. A service copy of all 8,000 volumes filmed in the project will be deposited into the CRL library collection. Microfilming will take place at the University of Bombay Library and the Library of Congress Field Office in New Delhi. The Library of Congress also will create new cataloging records for the titles filmed. All titles preserved in the project will be cataloged fully with bibliographic information added to the major U.S. bibliographic utilities and to the Center for Research Libraries' on- line catalog accessible through the INTERNET. Outright funding for this project will total $220,660 over two years, with an additional $39,175 contingent upon the receipt of matching funds. For more information, contact: Linda Naru CRL Director of Member Services 312-955-4545 x318 Linda Naru Director of Member Services The Center for Research Libraries 6050 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60637-2804 Voice: 312-955-4545 x318 Fax: 312-955-4339 Internet: naru at crlmail.uchicago.edu From cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Thu Feb 23 13:34:49 1995 From: cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:34:49 -0500 Subject: aamredDita Message-ID: <161227018696.23782.17711341323927776597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his note of February 22nd, Carlos Lopez kindly referred K. Cejka to my work on PaaNini. A short comment is in order. PaaNini does *not* provide for aamreDita *compounds*. What he does provide for is the repetition of a whole syntactic pada (8.1.1: sarvasya dve) under specified conditions. The second pada of such a complex has the name aamreDita (tasya param aamreDitam) and has only low-pitched vowels to begin with (anudaataM ca). Clearly, the complex in question is not called samaasa. On the other hand, authors of padapaaThas, such as Saakalya in his RgvedapadapaaTha, do indeed treat complexes like dive dive as compounds. The difference in treatment can be accounted for reasonably, in my opinion. Given that the complex has only one high-pitched vowel, it can be treated as a compound-like entity. On the other hand, unlike padakaaras, PaaNini operates with a procedure whereby only one of a possible set of homophonous units used with one vibhakti is allowed to remain (saruupaaNaam ekazeSa ekavibhaktau). I discuss this in a short article to appear soon in the Paul Thieme Festschrift (StII). George Cardona From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Thu Feb 23 08:39:52 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:39:52 +0000 Subject: INTERPRETING SOMA IN THE VEDA AS ELECTRUM- Part 6 Message-ID: <161227018692.23782.4050498646973819952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: soma in the veda and the 'slaying' of vrtra who encloses the waters There is one personage in the Rgveda who seems to provide a recurrent counterfoil to Indra: vrtra. Is he a demon? or is he also part of the allegory that seems to be SOMA process. It would appear that many names of gods and demons are 'inanimate objects or things' used in the metallurgical process. The attached note expounds on the example of vrtra. PS. Dr. Dominik, if. a la Bhartrhari, I had quoted sentences for each word, the number of pages for the attachment would have made it into a book-sized monograph! Hence, pardon the pithy lexical entries. I look forward to receiving critiques of the basic thrust of the argument: that vrtra is an earthen covering on a smelting apparatus (pots and pans) on a vedi, to extract 'soma rasa' i.e. electrum (gold-silver ore). Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380 (After 1 March 1995). Vrtra is a masculine form personified in the Veda; pl. vrtraaNi. The semantic substratum (sememe: v-r) of this morpheme (in the bhaashaa) relates to three 'meaning' or 'image' (hence, metaphor) clusters: (1) earthen embankment, sand bank, bund; covering, surrounding; (2) frame of smoke-hole; and (3) choosing. Perhaps (1) and (2) may be combined as one 'meaning' category: enveloping, restraining, frame. Cluster (3) is clearly a distinct semantic stream. (1) Embankment, earthen bund vaLai = to surround; surrounding region (Tamil); varampu = causeway, ridge of a field, boundary (Tamil); barangayi = boundary, shore (Tulu); cf. barangay = region (Pilipino.Tagalog); vrappi = ridge; varam = bund within or outside field (Telugu); varai = to restrain (Tamil). In terms of Pali grammar: samvuta (pp. of samvarati) = closed, restrained; samvara = restraint (Diigha 1. 57, 70, 89); vaaraNa = obstruction (VibhangaA 194 = nivaaraNa); vaareti (caus. of vuNaati) = to obstruct, hinder. aaworu = covered, surrounded (Kashmiri). vaaraNa = embankment of a tank (Kannada). samvaraNa = dam, mound (RaamaayaNa); samvara = dam, mound (Skt. BhaTTi-kaavya); obstacle (Prakrt); havura, avura, avraa = dam, earthwork; aavirili = wall (Sinhalese); aatapa-vaaraNa = sun-shade (Pali, DaaThaa-vamsa 1.28) sambRao, sambhRao = to hold or keep together, to protect, to restrain, to check; sambhe = a ferrule put on the end of a piece of wood to prevent it splitting; beRhae, beRhaete = to encircle, all round (Santali). vareti, bareti, bareta = a sand bank in a river, an island of sand (W. Punjabi); varaNah = a rampart, surrounding wall; a bridge; surrounding, covering, encircling (Skt.); s~ambala = a bank, shore (Skt.); samvarah = a dam, bridge, causeway; samvr = to wrap up, envelope (Skt.); nivara = covering (RV.); niyara = dike, dam between rice-fields (Sinhalese). vrtra = the demon who encloses waters, apO vavrivaamsam (Rgveda: RV. ii.14.2); conquering vrtra is a fundamental battle of the vedic episodes elaborated with terms such as the following: vrtra-khaada, vrtra-tara, vrtra-tur, vrtra-turya, vrtra-ha, vrtra-hatya, vrtra-hatha, vrtra-han; cf. epithets of Indra: vrtr-aarih, vrtra-dvish, vrtra-s~atruh; enemy of Indra (RV. viii.96.7). vavr-vaams (RV. ii.14.2) = having enclosed; vavri = hiding place (RV. x.5.5); vara = enclosing (RV. iii.23.5); varas = breadth, space, room (RV. i.190.2); samvaraNa = covered, enclosed place, sacrificial place (RV. vii.3.2) yadaa mahah samvaraNaad vyasthaat 'nirodhaat', Taittiriiya Samhitaa iv.4.3.3, ix.107.9 samudram na samvaraNaanyagman = like into the sea they (somas) went into the kumbhaa (cf. kubh aacchaadane = samvaraNe) i.e. soma-vat; treasure-house RV. x.77.6 pra yad vahadhve marutah paraakaadyuuyam mahah samvaraNasya vasvah = when ye O Maruts bring forth from afar riches from the great vault (i.e. treasury); vaara = treasure, property, good things (RV. i.128.6) vaaramrNvati 'varaNiiyamannaadikam' [cf. semantic junction between two concepts: vr = choose and vr = cover]. (2) (Earthen?) frame of smoke-hole There is an extrordinary and specific morpheme in the bhaashaa, related to a 'smoke-hole': saberane = frame of smoke hole (D.umaaki) [semantic cognate: samvaraNa = mound, earthwork]; vrtra, vitra, vrtta = darkness (Kannada). oRRa, oRa = ring of baked clay used in the construction of a well, well-tube (Telugu); uRai = burnt clay used for the construction of a well (Tamil).; or = cover of pot (Kota). vivara = hole (RV. Prakrt.Pali); biiwar = hole under ground (Kumaoni) ubaarnaa = to release (Hindi); uvvaarEi = releases (Prakrt). Is the morpheme, saberane = frame of a smoke-hole, an intimation of the metallurgical/smelting process related to soma? cf. sambhaara = assemblage of things required for any purpose; samvaraNe, sauraNe, savaraNe id.; aakaara-samvaraNe = dissimulation (aakaara, form, shape) (Kannada). (a) The allegory of vrtra: Expanding on the allegorical theme of soma, the slaying of vrtra may be related to the oxidation/reduction/removal of baser minerals/earths in the pyrite ores (maakshikaa) in the process of purification/smelting or metallurgical process to produce: soma, electrum. If a somanala-yantra is 'visualized', the allegory becomes vivid: the (vrtra) earthwork is burst, with a wind-blast of emitted sparks (marut), to release the purified 'extract' of 'soma rasa'. [samanom = an obsolete name for gold (Santali); marut = emitting sparks; maru = sandy waste (Vedic). ?maraLu to bubble up, boil fiercely; maral = sand, gravel (Kannada)] vrtrasya s~vasathaadiishamaaNaah: fleeing from the snorting of Vrtra; evaaya vaayuh ed dhatam vrtram (s~atapatha braahmaNa) vaayu came: behold vrtra was dead. [cf. the metaphor of 'snorting' and the concordant 'image' of 'smoke-hole' in a smelting process.] (b) Vrtra an apparatus in the soma smelting process: Vrtra may be deciphered as part of a smelting apparatus (perhaps, an enveloping earthen or clay moulding or simply, sand bank), part of the complex which includes agnii-shomanii = the rik or vessel used in consecrating agni and soma, a ceremony in the jyotishToma sacrifice (a soma sacrifice considered as the type of a whole class of ceremonies; agnishToma is a chief modification also involving soma offering, which continues for 5 days, involving 16 priests; cf. agniishomiiya-puroDaas~a, cake sacred to agni and soma baked in eleven kapaalas). Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. From hal_computer at earthlink.net Thu Feb 23 21:04:00 1995 From: hal_computer at earthlink.net (hal_computer at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 13:04:00 -0800 Subject: saMsAra = Reincarnation? Message-ID: <161227018701.23782.10338473638441780587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since everyone on this list seems to be giving his/her twopenny worth on the meaning of the word Samsaara, here is my contribution: Samsaara from sam = together; saara = flow. i.e. a flowing together. In Buddhist literature, this has been used to connote (the wheel of samsaara, etc.) the continuity (flow) of identity through successive lives. In another sense and in modern Indian languages, it comes to mean society, family, etc., units that flow together. Metaphysically, in Hinduism, a state opposed by sannyasa (discarding of togetherness, renunciation). It is interesting that in Malayalam, it means "to chat, chatter". It is the flowing together of tongues or words, or of consciousness through words. From ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Thu Feb 23 17:28:37 1995 From: ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Johannes B. Tuemmers) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 18:28:37 +0100 Subject: Nagarjuna's influence... Message-ID: <161227018699.23782.10748924190158581242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning the ongoing (re-)discussion on NAgArjuna's influence, I wonder whether NAgArjuna meant his texts (like MK) to be logically flawless in the first place. Maybe that wasn't his _main_ concern. I find his texts to be written with a MahAyAnic-motivation, i.e. with some 'therapeutical' motives behind the letters. The ultimate goal must have been for him, basically, to contribute s.th. valuable for those aspiring to become enlightened. The MK, for example, seems (IMO) to lead to the limits of any grasping knowledge. His _via negativa_-kind of method is directed against any grasping of the ultimate nature of outer and inner phenomena by vi-j~nAna. This includes any concepts whatsoever. Hence arises the difficult question whether he holds any view at all, or the opposite. The most interesting thing with his texts is, for me, the fact that NAgArjuna tried to refute the (plain) intellectual approach to Emptiness by using the apparatus of the same intellect; 'to beat it with it's own weapons', so to speak (that's a german proverb). NAgArjuna was certainly not _only_ a pure logician, but a practising buddhist, too, and as such he might have also had access to meditative insight as a source of inspiration for what to write and how. Reading the MK reminds me of reading a Zen-Koan. NAgArjuna has shown the limits and paradox nature of names and designations. Is anybody here on this list, who knows s.th. about Ludwig Wittgenstein? Could it be, that Wittgenstein did a similar job fot western philosophy as did NAgArjuna for the Indian traditions of his times? Of course, W. was no buddhist and enlightenment was not among his possible options. Looking forward to your comments, Johannes From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Thu Feb 23 20:05:09 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:05:09 +0000 Subject: Nagarjuna's influence... Message-ID: <161227018694.23782.16703515766630871830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regardless of whether a Nagarjunian influence on Dharmaki at rti's deviation from Digna at ga (if there is such a thing) exists, actually, regardless of any eventual result from textual inquiry, I find it methodolocigally unsound to credit one author with neglecting another's position, simply because he does not seem to allude to it. If one author does not mention another's position, first of all, let's assume that there is a reason for this which does not force us to discredit that author (irrelevance, different topics, different perspectives etc.). This is why I would not attribute any systematical significance to an alleged lack of reference from Dharmaki at rti to Na at ga@rjuna (Hayes seems to do so). And, I find it equally methodologically unsound to credit an author with simple logical fallacies, or inconsistencies (Hayes seems to do so). If we stop presupposing that philosophical authors write consistent texts and propose consistent logical systems, we might as well read their texts as poems and forget all about that philological-historical rigour. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima ....who attributes historical significance to the fact that the photocopy of Hayes' article has obviously vanished from her room... From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Fri Feb 24 08:48:47 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 08:48:47 +0000 Subject: Role of indology in cybexploring the philosophy of languages Message-ID: <161227018704.23782.1212337716700319347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Role of indology in cybexploring the philosophy of languages Indology provides very rich source material for explorations into the origins and bases of language in general. This is the warrant for this rather elaborate posting to the vibrant group of indology members. Please feel free to pass this posting on to other newsgroups etc. on internet/cyberspace (hence the coinage, cybexploring in the title); let us have some cross-currents (from other disciplines) flowing into the language-stream and get it enriched further. (a) Philosophy of meaning: social contract theory of meaning Let me take you to the limits of language and the border-point where it meets philosophy and, of course, society. Every child before the age of two is a linguist, immersed in the linguistic experience of the child's life. This is the time of the child's exposure to the outside world of language, challenging the child's innate language-competence. Mother (and others) and child communicate amidst an emerging social contract with the child to set up a simple concordance: sounds and meanings. Bhartrhari's vaakya-padiiya and sphoTa theories are brilliant philosophical expositions. So is Wittgenstein's concept of the mathematical impossibility of a 'private language'. As the child forms its own 'private language' (in neural networks) its linguistic competence gains potency only when the privacy is burst asunder and tested on the crucible of society. For, a private language, by definition, is impossible; a word or a sentence or even a paragraph and their 'meaning' have to be first 'spoken' and then, 'accepted'. In all contracts, there should be an offer and also, an acceptance; then it becomes binding. If the child speaks and its sounds are accepted to 'mean' something by the 'listener(s)', language (at least in terms of a semantic structure or form) is born. I submit that grammatical rules (like PaaNini's) to break-out the inflexions or sandhi-s are secondary, superficial manifestations of the formulation of language structures in the neural networks of the human brain. The fundamental, basic unit of language is the uniquely, phonetically identifiable 'sound burst' and its 'meaning' as agreed within a social contract. Thus, when brain meets society, mind emerges. [Remember Gilbert Ryle's famous statement about the category mistake committed when we try to equate brain and mind. They are two distinct categories, one is a physiological substratum, the other is a social-construct.] (b) Plea for new inter-disciplinary studies A new discipline has to emerge combining: philogeny (neurosciences) and language philosophy (linguistics). Indology provides a rich experience-base to unravel these phenomena that make man or woman so unique among mammals, with his or her unparalleled, linguistic competence. An oriole may sing a tune inheriting the competence to sing the same note as other orioles did; but only a man or woman has such a massive sound-repertoire and such a complex neural network to mimic this repertoire through a variety of sensory media: for e.g., imaging through script, philosophizing (e.g vedaanta) through intent conveyed and meaning received. (c) sphoTa theory revisited Let us modify and expand the concept of sphoTa which is a bursting forth or flashing or splitting open. As the thought bursts forth from the private language of the 'speaker's brain', something else happens: the 'listener's acceptance'. Thus sphoTa can be better explained in terms of its bhaashaa cognate: puTa, which has become a technical alchemical term. The speaker and the listener involved in creating language are in a social crucible of life-experiences; puTa-vikku = to put into a crucible in order to prepare drugs; to refine as metals; puTa = a cup or concavity made of a leaf folded or doubled; a basket of leaves; a crucible (Kannada). Let me submit that sphoTa is not a mere flash, it is a process. The refining process, taken out its social context and locked up in academic expose, resulted in a construct called Sanskrit and it didn't survive (as Latin didn't) as a living tongue because, somewhere along the line, linguists didn't realize that a language needs a speaker and a listener; not merely, a writer and a grammarian. Language, as a product out of the 'human brain' crucible, of course, needs a society, the true, living crucible. Poets may wax eloquent and lexemes may come and go, but they will survive, glisten and stay current only if tested on the touchstone of social interaction. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004, India; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. From gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de Fri Feb 24 11:10:22 1995 From: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (gor05) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 12:10:22 +0100 Subject: "SUMMARY: APABHRAMSA SYNTAX Message-ID: <161227018703.23782.7164429255109701892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last week, I sent out a message here on INDOLOGY asking for help on a question of Apabhamsa syntax. I got altogether 6 responses, so here is a short summary for those who are interested. First of all, many thanks to all those who responded.They are: S. Insler Madhav Deshpande James Gair Jakub Cejka Michael Shapiro Peter Hook Suggested literature: Ram Adhar Singh's: Syntax of Apabhramsa, Simant Publications. Peter Hook's: On identifying the conceptual resturcturing of Passive as Ergative in Indo-Aryan, in: Paninian Studies, S.D. Joshi Felicitation Volume, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 1991 S. Jamison's: The case of the agent in Indo-European, Die Sprache 15 (1979) , 129-143. And suggestions for contact with various people (if anyone is interested, he/she can contact me directly) as well as the observation that the femine declensions, where the oblique cases rapidly converge to form one single oblique case, undoubtedly led to a certain laxity in the masculine and neuter declensions in the use of instrumental or genitive/dative. Interestingly enough, most of those who responded were just as interested in the summary and in finding contact with others interested in Indo-Aryan syntax. One suggestion was that we should perhaps begin our own news exchange on the subject - as I am now leaving for India for four weeks, I will try to find out how one does that when I get back in April. For now I would like to make the suggestion that we start our dialogue here on Indology and see if there is enough interest. Unfortunately, although I am very interested in seeing how this works out, I will not be able to see the results until April. Hopefully there are enough of you out there interested in this so that it catches on. And also, my apologies to Jakub Cejka: I tried answering your question and sending it to you, but for some reason it come back to me. Sorry. Maybe we could discuss it here on the net? John Peterson, Kiel, Germany email: gor05 at rz.uni-kiel.d400.de From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Fri Feb 24 13:02:44 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 13:02:44 +0000 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018712.23782.16325853344424071294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Ansuman Pandey's posting Dominik Wujastyk wrote : We are going to go on getting this sort of material periodically posted to INDOLOGY for the simple reason that the ideas are out there, being energetically promoted by Hindu fundamentalists and others who may not realize the sinister communalist and anti-muslim agenda that underlies and accompanies such propaganda. -------- Ansuman's posting made an interesting read; The response from Dominik is a classic refutation by vilification. If all folks who read, consider and debate the origin of Indo-Aryans, it becomes anti- muslim and sinister! HUH.... ! These sorts of accusations have been levelled before on whoever has the termity to bring up the topic of origin of Indo-Aryans. Usually it is the same people who get apoplectic. So if certain scholars are so certain that Aryans invaded India from the west, is not the call of decent academic discourse that they present a refutation grounded in inequivocal evidence ? It personally does not matter to me if Aryans came from the east or the west, but I am very interested in informed opinions of the learned sages on the net. I have wondered why some folks find the notion of the eastward migration of Indo-Aryans so upsetting. Marita Gimbutas's work did conclude the movement of Indo-European speaking people into europe aroung 5000 BC. Teutonic mythology does speak of Odin the first ancestor and carrier of fire coming from the east. Do not scholars still have to look eastwards to look ito the Aryan past ? Whereas these and other facts are an not absolute proof, they keep the possibilities open until definitive evidence is presented. On the other side of Dominiks own statement, which due to its ad- hominem nature has an aroma of propoganda itself, it seems to me that this question is a quibble over ancestors. It seem that there are those who subliminally carry the assumptions of Comte Gobineau and Stewart Chamberlain in associating the original Aryans with the Teutons only, which is a necessary axiom for the Aryan Invasion theory. I say this only because a scholarly and compelling refutaion can forever purge the spectre of revisionism from INDOLOGY, and and not vilifying with a broad brush. This is the sort of stuff that academics is made of; Vigorous debate fuelled by the dialectic tension of opposing theses. In interest of academic clarity it would behoove Dominik to clarify the manner in which the AIT is sinisterly anti-muslim. I think that the original post is a matter of historical science, and the bounds of debate must be kept to the dissection of the ideas presented. A rebuttal calling the authors and readers of ideas not the same as ones pet theory as nasty people is (at least in my university) at best indicative of intellectual poverty. I do hope that some scholars will put together definitive rebuttals which are scholarly, devoid of acrimony and compellingly show amatuer Indologists like me which of the competing theories has more merit. Regards, J.B. Sharma Asst Professor of Physics Jakub Cejka has a more thoughtful rebuttal where he keeps to refuting From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Fri Feb 24 12:19:35 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 13:19:35 +0100 Subject: The Aryan Problem and the Puranas Message-ID: <161227018706.23782.11264251426096548598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > else in the world. In the study of the history of the Jews of ancient Israel, > for example, no one would even dream of trying to reconstruct the history from > those parts of the Old Testament, such as the Book of Psalms, which do not > profess to deal with this history, rather than from those parts, such as the > Chronicles, which do. And yet, in the case of ancient Indian history, the > scholars unblushingly reject the evidence of the Puranas on the basis of > "evidence" inferred from the Rigvedic hymns! I think there is quite a lot of difference. In ancient Near East there may be really seen a wish to record historical events, while in India not much really historical tradition arose in the oldest times, therefore historians resort to side-evidences in the literary monuments considered to be the oldest ones. And it seems to me so obvious due to the character of LANGUAGE, that the TODAY's puranas were composed much much more later, does some linguist disagree? > even before, the composition of the majority of the hymns of the Rigveda; AND > THAT THE MOVEMENT OF THESE DYNASTIES TOOK PLACE FROM EAST TO WEST, AND NOT > VICE VERSA. I must confess that the above mentioned seems to me not to be a sufficient evidence for this statement at all. Particularly because the puranas are ofcours not so much reliable source. Moreover it seems illogical to expect tribes migrating FROM A VERY FERTILE land to the deserts and steppes of the Central Asia and Iran etc. Also why to move from India in those times at all, as there was still sufficient space for that comparatively little number of people that may have lived there. I believe, thinking a bit more about it much more counterargumets could be added. Specialists, do add more! -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From hal_computer at earthlink.net Fri Feb 24 21:47:00 1995 From: hal_computer at earthlink.net (hal_computer at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 13:47:00 -0800 Subject: Prof. Kalyanaraman's postings on the Vedas Message-ID: <161227018714.23782.10385178422623375243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Over the last few weeks, Prof. Kalyanaraman has been very active on this list, and it has been, for me, an invariable pleasure to read his postings. As a result, I regret that he has to leave us now, and wish him the very best for the future. I hope he can get Internet access from Madras, and continue to enrich our discussions on the Indology list. I think that the monumental work he has done with the etymology of Indian word-roots will leave a legacy as indispensable to Indian Studies as the work of a Monier-Williams, and for this and for the unsparing energy and intelligence of his responses, I thank him on behalf of this list. However, regarding his postings on the meaning of Soma and other Vedic deities, while I read them with great interest, and concede their plausibility, I hope he does not expect us to believe that this is the only interpretation possible for these entities. It is, for me, absurd to imagine that that body of sruti that has been acknowledged by all subsequent Hindu thinking as the source and fountainhead of its lofty cognizings, is a mere treatise on Alchemy. Spiritual interpretations of the Vedas in more recent times, such as the work of Dayananda Saraswati or of Sri Aurobindo, do not overlook the fact that much scientific knowledge is hidden in the Vedas. Sri Aurobindo goes, in fact, one step further than Dayananda in saying that the sruti contains much scientific knowledge that has yet to be discovered by modern man. In a talk with a French scientist in 1926, Sri Aurobindo pointed out that the 3 forms of Agni enumerated in ancient yogic literature (jada agni, vaidyuta agni and saurya agni) stood respectively for what we call fire, electricity, and atomic energy.The third had not been discovered at the time of this talk. Sri Aurobindo says in the talk, "Science has only entered upon the first and second of these fires. The fact that the atom is like the solar system could lead it to the knowledge of the third." But of course, behind these three forms of fire there is chidagni, the fourth, conscious fire, spiritual Agni which is everywhere. "The child of the waters, the child of the forests, the child of things stable and the child of things that move. Even in the stone he is there", says the Rig Veda (I.70.2) A coherent spiritual cosmology, teleology, and method of yoga can be derived from the Vedas, and if such a derivation is possible, it must be the primary sense of this body of Knowledge, if we are to admit its eminence in the history of spiritual thought in India. Sri Aurobindo gives us such an interpretaion in his book "The Secret of the Veda". In this view, Soma stands for the principle of Delight or Ananda. In the being of the yajamana, sacrificer, the Soma-wine symbolizes the replacing of our ordinary sense-enjoyment by the divine Ananda. Therefore, a soma-wine offering is symbolic of the surrender of sense-enjoyment. The entire process of the soma sacrifice may be viewed in these psycho-spiritual terms. The stones, gravan or adri, which are used for the pressing of the stalks (amshu), are symbolic of the travails on the path of yoga, loosening or cracking the pashas of samskaras, and yielding the rasa, freed from personal attachment, for the offering to the gods. The pouring of the rasa through the purifying sieve, pavitra, represents the refinement of the senses, the higher emotional and mental offering, kept ready in the subjective consciousness of the adhara (chamasa or kalasha) for the delectation of Indra, Lord of the Divine Mind, who rejoices in the gift. Strengthened and delighted by this nectar, Indra pours the strength of Enlightenment into the yajamana and himself descends into the person of the latter, prepares him to transcend his humanity and eventually admits him into his native celestial abode or station of conscious- ness. As mentioned earlier, this is not to dismiss the possibility of an alchemical meaning also being hidden in this description. For those interested in more information on the book, "The Secret of the Veda", or on obtaining it, please write me privately. Debashish Banerji. From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Fri Feb 24 13:01:11 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:01:11 +0100 Subject: "SUMMARY: APABHRAMSA SYNTAX Message-ID: <161227018707.23782.6645065523018517452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > And also, my apologies to Jakub Cejka: I tried answering your question and > sending it to you, but for some reason it come back to me. Sorry. Maybe we > could discuss it here on the net? Thanks for your trying to respond to my questions. I'd like to read your reply. My address (below) should work (it worked always before), please try again. I consider my questions too silly to be posted on indology, but if you post it there I hope others will be patient - I have already posted quite a good deal of silly questions on indology anyway so one more does not matter. (if you mail to me directly again, note, please, that our university is to be disconnected from internet on Tuesday morning) Regards, Jakub -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Fri Feb 24 13:33:45 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:33:45 +0100 Subject: "kaumudii" Message-ID: <161227018709.23782.15770952621657093240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members. In connection with the kumuda-discussion and several other postings concerned with plant-topics I would like to ask for any references to literature about the flowers/plants occuring in Sanskrit (Prakrit) poetry, what are the poetical/mythological connotations of various plants in Indian literature. Also, is there any attempt of botanical Sanskrit-Latin (or whatever) dictionary which put more light on which plant is which than the classical Skt dictionaries do? To put it simply, any bibliography on plants in Skt liter. whether general intro or specific monografies is wanted. Thanks in advance again (not to post "thanks"messages after) Jakub -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Fri Feb 24 14:03:48 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 15:03:48 +0100 Subject: my disconnection Message-ID: <161227018710.23782.8727171110700136275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my reply to APABHRAMSA I wrote that our central computer is to be disconnected from internet on Tuesday (28 Feb) morning, and I DID NOT mean it is for ever. Only on Tue, temporarily. To the management of the list: please inform me - will this cause that indology postings posted to me on that day will be lost for me? (if this could be avoided do it please) Thanks for patience to those, who are not concerned with this. -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From BAKULA at delphi.com Sat Feb 25 03:03:22 1995 From: BAKULA at delphi.com (Sid Harth) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:03:22 -0500 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018717.23782.5251741312188902538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sharma is, in fact, trying to reinvent the wheel. Sid Harth `[1;33;40mRainbow V 1.11 for Delphi - Test Drive From torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it Fri Feb 24 22:55:57 1995 From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it (torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:55:57 +0000 Subject: bhAvapratyayas Message-ID: <161227018716.23782.12233749809116639829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I 'd like to know more on the bhAvapratyayas, both from the grammatical and speculative side (starting from P. 5.1.119), but I can't find any comprehensive study on the matter. Can the vaiyAkaraNa colleagues help me ? Raffaele Torella From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Sat Feb 25 05:39:51 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 00:39:51 -0500 Subject: Indology Research desk Message-ID: <161227018721.23782.6556804988172329215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hello, > I am currently writing a proposal to make a research platform which >an indologist can use for the research and related activities. >I would like to know from the list members what all this piece of software >should have and can optionally have. All suggestions and criticisms are most >welcome. > Multi-lingual word-processing with the possibility of alphabetization in the alphabetical order of each language. Global searches by word in any alphabet. A spell-checker keyed to a specific alphabet. Whizz-bang multi-lingual indexing. It should be equiped with Big 5 and whatever other systems are necessary in order to receive Chinese character announcements off of Chinese Bulletin Boards. Why Chinese? Because of research in Chinese which will become relevant in coming years. Separating your South Asian platform from the needs of Inner Asian studies is not a good idea. For example, I am a specialist in Inner Asian texts, but do a lot with Indic sources as well. You will find one major problem: Sanskrit conjuncts. To computer input the Tibetan Buddhist canon we need Tibetan versions of all Sanskrit conjuncts, but are having trouble finding a complete list. Your platform must be Worldscript compatible or else it will not be useful to Mackintosh users such as myself. For example, I would like to get the Chinese Language Kit for Mackintosh. But I use Microsoft Word as my word-processor. The CLK is based on a Mackintosh font-manager utility in the operating system called Worldscript. But Microsoft Word has decided not to be Worldscript compatible in its new versions. The result is that you do not get the benefits of variable spacing that are so vital if you are using a complicated non-roman alphabet or character system. Eventually I am going to have to abandon Microsoft Word, even though I have spent several years learning to use it. I will have to abandon it simply because it is not perfectly compatible with the font-managers designed by the Mackintosh operating system. Your platform will have to be able to accept and correctly interpret the General Markup System some people use to drive postscript fonts. Just a few ideas. I hope this is helpful. RObin Kornman From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Sat Feb 25 05:39:57 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 00:39:57 -0500 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018719.23782.8925533823899488372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jim Hartzell describes below dictionaries that are useful for tantras and their related sastras. He says that there are no standard dictionaries to cover the needs of people translating these texts. Boy is he right. Add to this native translations of native Tibetan religious texts, Tibetan Buddhist ritual texts, and a host of other materials being translated nowadays by various translation committees. The classical dictionaries are not very helpful. Well, actually, those of us translating these "unrepresented" texts do indeed have dictionaries. We have dictionaries we have manufactured using our computers as we went along. For example, the Nalanda Translation Committee has its own ever-growing glossary of standardizations we use in our translations of biographies and ritual texts. We know that such glossaries exist for many other groups. And Erik Schmidt combines these various databases in a huge, burgeoning computerized dictionary he keeps in Nepal. We freely give him our material and he and his friends type it into their huge database. The problem is that there is no money or time to spruce up these bases into publishable dictionaries like Monier-Williams. Jeffrey Hopkins and his students solve this problem by continually republishing their database at the local Kinkos. They keep the information on a database program and produce new editions in printed form on an irregular basis. Should we make our databases available via FTP? We are all hesitant to do this, because we do not understand very clearly what risks are involved in this process. We would expose unedited scholary materials to the criticism of our colleagues. We might forestall the possibility of one day actually publishing a prestigious, carefully editing dictionary like Monier-Williams. We might invite plagerism and stealing of our work--- which might not be a problem, but who knows? None of us have thought through the problems that might be involved. Then there are a number of interesting dictionaries that relate to indological subjects and are in Chinese or published in China. Not covered by international copyright law, these texts could easily be transferred to electronic format. Some of them have been. But they are only available informally, again because the politics of making these texts broadly available electronically is obscure. Several important new dictionaries that provide very specific vocabularies are being produced at the moment in China, England, the U.S. and other places. One hears of them. Then there are card-catalogue vocabularies which could be transferred to computer databases quite easily. I saw one for Tibetan oral narrative in Paris several years ago. Vast lexical materials are informally available. But nothing systematic or public is being done about these resources. Robin Kornman >I would heartily agree on the usefulness of something like this. I'd also >like to suggest consideration of some sort of internet-accessible >technical terminology dictionary; in particular this would be useful >to develop for the rather extensive number and types of texts that were >not read by the authors of the current standard dictionaries for Sanskrit >and Tibetan, i.e, Monier-Williams (or was it Bothlink and Roth.....), > Apte, and for Tibetan, Das and Jaschke. Virtually none of the tantras, >for instance, nor their related sastras in Sanskrit and Tibetan, are >represented in these dictionaries. Individuals translating such >`unrepresented' texts could then contribute translated terms with citations. >Over time, this could result in a vastly improved set of dictionaries. >Jim Hartzell > > From magier at columbia.edu Sat Feb 25 11:26:36 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 06:26:36 -0500 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018727.23782.4878409079065438775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robin Kornman wrote: > Well, actually, those of us translating these "unrepresented" texts do > indeed have dictionaries. We have dictionaries we have manufactured using > our computers as we went along. For example, the Nalanda Translation > Committee has its own ever-growing glossary of standardizations we use in > our translations of biographies and ritual texts. We know that such > glossaries exist for many other groups. And Erik Schmidt combines these > various databases in a huge, burgeoning computerized dictionary he keeps in > Nepal. We freely give him our material and he and his friends type it into > their huge database... So the question becomes how to disseminate among scholars the ongoing value of such a database, even while it is still a 'work in progress'. For me, the answer would be to make it available on the internet. > The problem is that there is no money or time to spruce up these bases into > publishable dictionaries like Monier-Williams. Jeffrey Hopkins and his > students solve this problem by continually republishing their database at > the local Kinkos. They keep the information on a database program and > produce new editions in printed form on an irregular basis. A useful solution that's been used for centuries, but costly, cumbersome, and quite a burden on the data producers. > Should we make our databases available via FTP? We are all hesitant to do > this, because we do not understand very clearly what risks are involved in > this process. Instead of making the entire database available to the world via FTP as a unified text (a la Monier Williams), why not make it available for USE by the world as a searchable database? Instead of each scholar downloading the entire thing, like a new book for his own collection, why not set up the database on a server that would allow scholars to connect to and use it to look up specific entries as needed. This would solve many problems and address at least some of the concerns that Robin raised: > We would expose unedited scholary materials to the criticism > of our colleagues. Yes, but criticism is a good thing. A database like this could only benefit from the feedback of colleagues. And with an appropriate disclaimer, indicating that this is a work in progress, the 'unedited' nature of the resource would not be viewed negatively. This is precisely equivalent to the working papers that physicists and medical researchers (for example) publishe with great success on the internet, in order to share the results of their ongoing work, in order to let others benefit from the process, and in order to derive benefit from the feedback. > We might forestall the possibility of one day actually > publishing a prestigious, carefully editing dictionary like > Monier-Williams. Yes. If you put the whole thing up for downloading as an FTP file, this would certainly be the case. But if you put it up as an interactive, searchable database, then people get to use it (or pieces of it) by looking up specific entries through keyword searching. In this case, you have not really 'published' the whole thing as a compiled dictionary, and could still do so later in paper form. > We might invite plagerism and stealing of our work--- which might not be a > problem, but who knows? None of us have thought through the problems that > might be involved. Yes, still a possibility, but again it would only be pieces of it that could be stolen, rather than the whole thing. That is, no one would be able to download the entire work, they could only look up particular entries. > Then there are a number of interesting dictionaries that relate to > indological subjects and are in Chinese or published in China. Not covered > by international copyright law, these texts could easily be transferred to > electronic format. Some of them have been. But they are only available > informally, again because the politics of making these texts broadly > available electronically is obscure. I don't know the specifics of the dictionaries mentioned. But it certainly should be possible to get past the 'politics' and to garner the approval of the authors/compilers to add their data to a globally-accessible electronic database. My experience is that authors are often thrilled at the prospect of having their work made more available in this fashion, provided they are given appropriate credit for what they have done. > Then there are card-catalogue vocabularies which could be transferred to > computer databases quite easily. I saw one for Tibetan oral narrative in > Paris several years ago. I'm not so sure that this kind of conversion is 'easy'. As a librarian I know that libraries have been struggling for years to find reasonably accurate and inexpensive ways to convert their old card catalogs into online databases. A massive project, and nothing seems to work except hiring someone to type in all the same data. Of course if the source materials were sufficiently interesting and of great value to the scholarly world, one might be able to get a foundation grant to support such conversion... Anyway, I would encourage anyone with useful lexical resources to take the leap and consider making them available on the internet as databases (not necessarily as ftp files). I would certainly be willing to disuss mounting such databases here at Columbia as part of The South Asia Gopher, to make them accessible from anywhere. The actual mechanics of taking such a file and generating a keyword index (using, for example, WAIS software on a unix server) to allow searching, are fairly trivial, and I could undertake to do that for any files people cared to deposit here for this purpose. The authors/compilers obviously would have to supply all the supporting material as text (i.e. the 'front matter' that explains methodologies, romanization and encoding conventions, sources consulted, names of contributors, acknowledgments, etc. etc.). This material would then form an "ABOUT" file (or README) which would accompany the actual search menu on the Gopher. What do you think? David Magier Columbia University South Asia Gopher magier at columbia.edu From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sat Feb 25 10:36:34 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 10:36:34 +0000 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018729.23782.17547836082042923603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sid Harth wrote : Sharma is, in fact, trying to reinvent the wheel. ------------ I am flattered that my note moved Sid to poetic vein. I do wish to state that there is no invention in my note. It is submitted to the list in the spirit of a question; The intent is to solicit information such that I can make up my own mind. I really have no qualification to make historical claims as I am not a formal historian. This is the best place in the world to come to seek informed opinions on ancient India. The historical insights which are closest to the truth are defensible by shaasthraarth and incisive reasoning and not by impugning the motives of other debators. Debates settled in this manner are dealt with once and for all. Besides it is the constant questioning wich keeps historical models healthy after all. My note therefore is more about the process of historical science and debate. For historical substance I respectfully look to the list. Regards, J.B. Sharma From chandrak at UMDNJ.EDU Sat Feb 25 15:50:25 1995 From: chandrak at UMDNJ.EDU (Arun Chandrakantan) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 10:50:25 -0500 Subject: The Meaning of Patrika Message-ID: <161227018731.23782.570521709193393645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am writing to you all from the New Jersey Medical School, Newark, NJ, USA. I have a question that may or may not be appropriate for this list. At our school, we have an newly formed Indian Student Association and have named our newsletter "Patrika." To us, that means "letter." I was wondering if some scholars on the Net can help identify any other possible meanings for this word. Thanks. Arun Chandrakantan chandrak at njmsa.umdnj.edu From IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU Sat Feb 25 19:23:00 1995 From: IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (robert l brown) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 11:23:00 -0800 Subject: Prof. Bandaranayake at UCLA Message-ID: <161227018733.23782.10179923289424087008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Senake Bandaranakayake, Professor of Archaeology at the University of Kelaniya in Sri Lanka, and Director of the UNESCO Sri Lanka Cultural Triangle Project, Sigiriya, will be at UCLA for one week (March 13-17) giving three seminars and one public lecture. The public is welcome to all events: Public Lecture: "The Art and Archaeology of Sigiriya, Sri Lanka (Fifth Century A.D." Tuesday, March 14, 7:00 pm Dickson Art Center, 3273 Seminars: 1-"Buddhist Architecture of the Anuradhapura Period (Third Century BC-Tenth Century AD)" Monday, March 13, 4:00-6:00 Dickson Art Center, 4260 2-"Urbanization in Ancient Sri Lanka" Wednesday, March 15,5:00-7:00 Dickson Art Center, 4257 3-"The Archaeology of Sigiriya (Fifth Centry AD)" Friday, March 17, 4:00-6:00 Dickson Art Center, 4260 For information, call Robert L. Brown, (310) 825-3577, fax. (310) 206-1903 From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sat Feb 25 12:34:11 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 12:34:11 +0000 Subject: once more about CSX Message-ID: <161227018725.23782.14328974707190387840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jakub Cejka said: > I got acquainted with CSX by FTPing it from ftp.bcc.ac.uk I think, and the > font is named CSX.VGA. I really cannot find there e,o with macrons! > ... Do I have some outdated version of this font? No, you're absolutely right. There are e/o+tilde, breve, and grave and acute are in IBM 437 (I now have strong reservations about using this as a "bacground" to CSX; another topic for discussion). But no e,o+macron. Dravidologists: are e- and o-macron needed for Tamil? CSX is *really* meant only for Sanskrit (hence "Computer Sanskrit eXtended"), but the thinking was that if the addition of one or two extra letters could add a whole other S. Asian language then great. But it may not be possible to take this very far, since there are fewer and fewer characters that can be displaced easily. Madhav: could you answer about Manjushree etc? Thanks. Dominik From kichenas at math.umn.edu Sat Feb 25 22:37:35 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 16:37:35 -0600 Subject: Long vowels in Tamil (Re: CSX) Message-ID: <161227018735.23782.9075143143634855246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the question of transliteration of Tamil raised by Dominik W., the distinction between short and long e and o is essential, and a macron is generally used for long letters in print. For reference, here is the complete Tamil alphabet as I would type it on a computer, with indications on systems used in scholarly publications: Vowels: a A i ii u U e E ai o O au Consonants: k c T t p R ng n~ N n' m n y r l v zh L Aytam: .h (or h, q) Note: 1) ii is better than I because I looks like `el' on some terminals. 2) n' is the dental n, but is less frequent than n 3) e, o, R, n, zh, L and the Aytam do not exist in Sanskrit (making allowance for the Vedic L of course---I am not discussing any possible connection between these letters here; the phonetic rules for its appearance and combinations in one or the other language can be found in grammars). 4) It is common to use in PRINT an underlined n for what we called n, leaving n for the dental. Similarly, r_ is found instead of R. Some people use only r's and l's for zh, L,... with appropriate diacritical marks, and I have seen R denoted by a t_ (sic); the latter can be confusing on occasion. The French system is usually convenient (see the PIFI monographs). Of course, dots under cerebrals are probably universally accepted. Same remark for n (overdot) =ng, n (tilde) =palatal n. The Aytam is often written as an h with a diacritical mark, and seldom by q to avoid confusion with semitic languages. 5) In popular transliterations, it is common to see t/T rendered as th/t, although there is no aspirate in the alphabet. 6) Provision should be made for the characters borrowed from the Grantha script (which used to be the standard Sanskrit alphabet in Tamil land). Most common are a ligature for S'rii, and the characters for s, s', sh, h, plus a ligature for ksha. 7) If printing in Tamil is desired, it would be nice to develop a font which prints the Tamil numerals and abbreviations, since these are ubiquitous in scholarly publications. The sign for the abbreviated Om (found at the beginning of every text) would be nice too. 8) Some Tamil word processing systems (which can interface nicely with TeX) use other systems. At any rate, if all scholarly systems for Roman transliteration of Tamil must be used, one needs to have access to letters with (a) a macron; (b) a line, one or two dots under it; (c) a dot over it at least (plus the British pound sign and a c+cedilla for some systems). Very old editions used to substitute the circumflex for the macron, as is well-known, but this seems rare today. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From kichenas at math.umn.edu Sat Feb 25 23:07:24 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 17:07:24 -0600 Subject: Flowers in literature (Re: kaumudii) Message-ID: <161227018736.23782.17157627707552394153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in answer to Jakub Ceyka's query. Regarding the subject of flowers in Indian poetical conventions, one should mention the very original use of flowers in Tamil. A quick search led me to the following references to monographs on the subject (all in Tamil, but I vaguely remember that one of them contains pictures and Latin equivalents): 1) Elancheran, Kovai, Ilakkiyam oru pUkkAtu, Rockfort Publ., Cennai (=the Tamil name of Madras) 1982, 767 pages 2) Tanammal, ILaTcumi, Canka ilakkiyattil malarkaL VAnati, Cennai, 1981, 3) Ayiram malarkaL (several authors). Some of the above are in Chicago, so I haven't looked at them. There are other sources for some of the more important flowers, on which I can post details if anyone is interested. I hope that this helps. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sat Feb 25 17:50:19 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 17:50:19 +0000 Subject: Indology Research desk Message-ID: <161227018728.23782.4440640377990256446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A widely-admired workstation was designed for classical Greek scholars some years ago. David Packard (Packard Humanities Institute) was the force behind it. It was called the Ibycus Workstation and could display and process fully accented ancient Greek (and Latin), and had a blindingly fast text search engine blown into a chip so that it could find anything in the TLG (Thesaurus Linguae Grecae) in a nimi.sa. The people who could afford one loved it. As far as I know, it died from platform-specificity. It was the best tool for the job, but unfortunately that wasn't enough to make it a lasting success. Any design of a platform for Indological or Asian studies should take into account the history of the Ibycus, its strengths and weaknesses. A serious modern platform probably needs to be implemented purely in software (ANSI C), and to be portable across a number of operating systems, including at least Unix (Linux), OS/2 and perhaps Windows. Dominik From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Sat Feb 25 17:56:07 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 17:56:07 +0000 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018723.23782.5615007899760119914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robin Kornman described exactly that situation which I presume obtains for many different areas of Indian/Tibetan Studies - lots of people using computers to facilitate their work, and somehow, they would like to share their efforts with others, but they are hesitant for various reasons. 1. The legal problem of "e-text-publishing". I still have not come across anybody who could clarify this issue. If you type or scan in a freely available publication (i.e. one which falls under copyright), put it on a ftp-server and announce this to a related mailing-list - how does this infringe copyright? Or doesn't it? I am also presupposing that there is no commercial intention involved (i.e. nobody charges for downloading the actual file). 2. The problem of "it's too raw to be published", viz. making material accessible which is not exactly in a state of "officially" deserving publication. Of course, it is preferable to have proof-read materials. And materials whose arrangement shows a certain rationale....and of course, other malicious people could step up and criticize the "raw but not cooked"-state of the materials in question. I myself am not concerned about that too much. Anybody who wants can have my typed files. If people complain about typos etc., well, either don't use it, or correct it, or wait until I find enough time to do that myself. Remember: I am talking about texts, glossaries etc. I am NOT talking about research results themselves, which is an entirely different universe. Anyway - I am compiling a list of e-texts, Tibetan and Sanskrit, which I have available or which can be found in Hiroshima's computers, and anybody who is up to it - feel free to mail me. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Sun Feb 26 09:59:55 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 09:59:55 +0000 Subject: Long vowels in Tamil (Re: CSX) Message-ID: <161227018738.23782.10715625825432831578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the very helpful info on Tamil transliteration. The convention in Sanskrit transliteration is that the unmarked "e" and "o" are always long, and if you want to talk about short versions, they are marked with a breve. So you never need the macron. Is it different in Tamil? In Kannada there are three versions of "e" and "o", so I can imagine one would indeed need at least two marked vowel signs. Dominik From kichenas at math.umn.edu Sun Feb 26 17:24:36 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 11:24:36 -0600 Subject: Long vowels in Tamil (Re: CSX) Message-ID: <161227018739.23782.4115362193950451154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes: in Tamil, the unmarked letters are short by default, so the macron is required for long vowels (despite the variations of transliteration, this convention seems to be universally followed). By the way, all vowels in Tamil can have three lengths, (1, 2 or 3 units in duration). For a, these would be denoted a, A, Aa, both in transliteration and in the Tamil script. The last form is called aLapeTai and has an analog for diphtongs (aii). At any rate, these do not require any further special symbols. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From bhagavam at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Sun Feb 26 20:50:50 1995 From: bhagavam at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (manu bhagavan) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 14:50:50 -0600 Subject: South Asian American biblio (fwd) Message-ID: <161227018742.23782.4474526920820111844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 14:42:42 -0600 (CST) From: Sagar S. Asia Graduate Journal To: bhagavam at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Subject: South Asian American biblio (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:57:01 -0500 (EST) From: Rosane Rocher To: sagrj at uts.cc.utexas.edu Subject: South Asian American biblio Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: >From MAILER-DAEMON at noc4.dccs.upenn.edu Sun Feb 26 08:54 EST 1995 Posted-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:54:54 -0500 Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:54:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 08:54:50 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON at noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9502261354.AA06246 at noc4.dccs.upenn.edu> To: Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2652 ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 ... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 08:54:50 -0500 Received: (rrocher at localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.6.10/8.2SAS) id IAA06723; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:54:49 -0500 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Posted-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:54:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199502261354.IAA06723 at mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: South Asian American biblio To: pachinko at uclink.berkeley.edu (Jiannbin Lee Shiao) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:54:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: sagarj at uts.cc.utexas.edu In-Reply-To: from "Jiannbin Lee Shiao" at Feb 25, 95 03:41:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.8] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1669 Many thanks are due to Kenyon Chan and Shirley Hune for sharing with the net their core bibliography "Teaching Asian American Studies." Since, however, this bibliography includes only one item specifically devoted to South Asian American issues but includes several which, though they go under general Asian American titles, exclude or omit the South Asian American experience, I hope that I may be permitted to announce the following forthcoming publication which may be of complementary value. "South Asian American Studies: A Working Bibliography 1975-1994" will appear in the next issue of _Sagar: South Asia Graduate Research Journal_ (2:1, Spring 1995). _Sagar_ is available both in hard copy and electronic versions. Write sagrj at uts.cc.utexas.edu. Although this bibliography is being published at the request of South Asianists who wish to be more informed on South Asian American issues, I hope that it may be of equal interest to Asian Americanists who wish to include more materials on the South Asian American experience in their readings. I would also be grateful to members of the net who may communicate to me titles recently published that may not yet have come to my attention and titles of items currently in the press. Since I have to turn in the bibliography before leaving for four months of research in India beginning on March 26, any communications would have to reach me by March 19 to be included. Many thanks and warm wishes to all! Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 email: rrocher at mail.sas.upenn.edu -- Rosane Rocher, Professor of South Asian Studies 820 Williams Hall, University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 Fax (215) 573-2138 >?From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org n Feb 25 09:14:21 95 Date: n 25 Feb 95 09:14:21 MNL From: "s. kalyanaraman" Subject: Indian theories on 'meaning' and 'grammar' Re: Indian theories on 'meaing' and 'grammar' Some philosphical problems as expounded in indological linguistic studies may be of interest to indology members. At the outset, it should be emphatically stated that there is no supreme language; a language is a locus for 'expressions' of social experiences of a community. Neural networks are 'language-neutral', i.e. irrespective of the language used, 'a private language' operates which is distinctly individualistic, since the networks themselves have been modified by the individual's life-experiences (which include 'heard' and 'spoken' sounds, apart from 'perceived' actions and objects, through other sensory faculties, i.e. individual's life-history experienced emotionally and neuronally). What is the significance of the term 'artha' used in the compound: s~abdaartha? How do we explain Tolkaappiyan's aphorism? ellaac collum poruL kuRittanave (tol.col. peya.1), i.e. all words are semantic indicators. poruL, col (Tamil) = artha, s~abda (Sanskrit) How can one explain a word with another word? A word as a semantic indicator points to an external object, it also points to the intention of the speaker. Is 'artha' to be explained in terms of the 'impact' or 'impression', this 'indicator' creates and the 'response' that the 'indicator' 'evokes' in the 'listener'? Good reviews are provided in (1) John Brough, "Theories of General Linguistics in the Sanskrit Grammarians", Transactions of the Philosophical Society, pp. 27-46, 1951 and (2) Kunjunni Raaja, Indian Theories of Meaning, Madras, 1963. Helaaraaja explains that grammar skirts around reality: s~abdaprammaNakam hi s~abda eva hi yathaartham abhidhatte tathaiva tasyaabhidhaanam upapannam; na tu vastumukhapraks.ataaya : for to those whose authority is the word, the word designates what it corresponds to, and its designation is accordingly appropriate; but it is not for looking reality directly in the face (Helaraaja on vaakyapadiiya III. sam. verse 66). Of course, grammar (in Bhartrhari's conception) is concerned with 'time' not in its philosophical framework, but as a tool to analyze why a verb gets organized in different tenses (Helaraaja on vaakyapadiiya. III. kaalasamuddes~a. 58). Similary, action (kriyaasamuddes~a) is explained as an inferred (not perceived) process of parts in a tempral sequence; for grammar, the key question is: does the verb presents action as such a process. (Helaaraaja on vaakyapadiiya. III. kriyaasamuddes~a. 10). [This is the gist of the presentation made by KA. Subramania Iyer in "The point of view of the vaiyaakaraNas", Journal of Oriental Research, 18, pp. 84-96, 1948]. vyaaDi (sarvadars~ana samgraha, Bibliographica indica, pp. 140-4) notes: letters by themselves cannot convey meaning, sphoTa is the unifying, all-pervading factor that exists independently of letters. sphoTa is the impression produced on the mind when a sound is heard: budhairvaiyaakaraNah pradhaana bhuuta sphoTa ruupavyangyanjakasya s~abdasya dhvaniriti vyavahaarah krtah (kaavyaprakaas~a. 1; also the eternal sound recognized by miimaamsakas or inquirers). sphoTa is the link between the sound and its meaning: sphuTati prakaas~ate'rtho' smaad iti sphoTo vaacaka it yaavat (konDabhaTTa, vyaakaraNa-bhuus.aNa, Bombay, 1915, p. 236); cf. naages~abhaTTa, sphoTavaada (Adyar Library, 1946, p.5). Madhava expounds further (sarvadars~ana samgraha, ed. Abhyankar, p. 300) that sphoTa is revealed by the letters and reveals the meaning: sphuTasyate vyajyate varNair iti sphoTo varNaabhivyangyah, sphuTati sphuTibhavaty asmaad artha iti sphoTo' rthapratyaayakah. PaaNini (vi.1.123) cites sphoTaayana on an issue of morphology. For Patanjali (mahaabhaashya) sphoTa is the carrier of meaning, the sound of a word is merely an attribute. What do the padapaaThas of samhitaas accomplish? Constituent words (meainingful words) are identified for works like Yaska's niruktam to elaborate on etyma of such words. How has the decipherment of the veda been accomplished during the last few centuries ? (which is perhaps one of the most magnificent achievements of indological scholarship). Every word has been analyzed in 'context' and tested on the touchstone of the bhaashaa, in a beautiful, iterative, process. I submit that if a poet has to convey meaning to the audience, the poet should abandon the search for the perfect language and bow to the superior wisdom of the bhaashaa, the common parlance, the lingua franca. For, words are but memory-markers in the private languages of the audience. Perhaps, all that the poet can do is to evoke these memory-markers, perhaps like a neuronal-symphony. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004; Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Sun Feb 26 17:58:54 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 17:58:54 +0000 Subject: Conference on Buddhism and Human Rights Message-ID: <161227018741.23782.2809737685551179751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ONLINE CONFERENCE ON BUDDHISM AND HUMAN RIGHTS 1-14th October 1995 Sponsored by The Journal of Buddhist Ethics In view of the many expressions of interest received the editors of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics are pleased to announce that the proposed conference is now ON and will take place between the above dates. Please note that as the medium of the conference will be email, there is no need to be CONTINUOUSLY available between these dates, although it would be desirable to have regular access to a terminal for the duration of the conference. 1) Conference Papers Papers will be published electronically in a special edition of the JBE in advance of the conference. Plain text (ASCII) and hypertext (HTML for the World Wide Web) versions of the papers will be available. It is hoped that the proceedings of the conference will subsequently be published in book form. The subject matter of the papers may be of a social, political, or philosophical nature and deal with contemporary or historical themes in the general field of Buddhism and Human Rights. Papers should be around 5,000 words in length and must be received by August 31st 1995. Please contact the editors if you would like to discuss a proposal for a paper. 2) Conference Panel The function of a panelist is to comment on the papers presented and participate in general discussion about Buddhism and human rights. Panelists may be academics, politicians, representatives of human rights organizations, or individuals (lay or clergy) who have knowledge or experience of human-rights problems and abuses in Buddhist cultures. Please notify the editors if you would like to participate as a panel member. 3) Conference Members The conference will be a public one on the list JBE-L and anyone is welcome to "attend" free of charge. To attend the conference you subscribe to the list, and you may unsubscribe when the conference ends. Comments can be made, and questions put to the authors of the papers and to the panel. All comments from the "floor" will be moderated. You can subscribe from this time onwards by sending an email message as follows: ----------------------- SUB JBE-L (Your name here) Example: SUB JBE-L MICHAEL FOX Subscribers to the list will be kept up to date with new developments. Note: If you have already notified us of your interest there is no need to do so again. Everyone who replied to our original enquiry will shortly receive a personal mailing. Enquiries about the conference, panels, and papers should be sent to jbe-ed at psu.edu The Editors Journal of Buddhist Ethics ************************************************ Damien Keown Department of Historical & Cultural Studies Univerity of London, Goldsmiths London SE14 6NW d.keown at gold.ac.uk voice: [44] 0171 919 7171 fax: [44] 0171 919 7398 *********************************************** From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 27 07:51:05 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 07:51:05 +0000 Subject: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary Message-ID: <161227018745.23782.160789643061241096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian comparative, etymological dictionary of S. Kalyanaraman I have been asked to give an example of 'semantic clustering' which I claim to be a unique method of compiling comparative etyma for South Asian languages. The etyma related to mukha = mouth, face (Rgveda) will continue to be a bone of contention among the proponents of the so-called Indo-Aryan, Austro-Asiatic (Munda) and Dravidian language streams, each claiming 'ancient' status. Burrow and Emeneau's Dravidian etyma include: muukku nose (Tamil); mukku nose (Telugu); muucuucu to smell (Telugu); muka- id. (Tamil); mukam face, mouth (Tamil); mogamu id. (Telugu); muum face (Pengo); muun~ci face (Tamil); muuti mouth (Telugu); mu.ti mouth, beak (Kolami); mudra face (Maltese); muun~ju to suck (penis) (KoDagu); mokku bow, obeisance (Kannada); moqtre to bend (head)(Maltese); moqe to eat (Maltese); mOvaay chin, beard (Tamil) Turner's Indo-Aryan etyma include: mukha entrance (Skt.); mouth, face (Skt.Pali); muha id. (Prakrt); muy, mui face (Gypsy); muh, mu~h (Hindi); mucha mustache (Sindhi); mo~-ch hair on face (Awadhi); muhanaa river mouth (Bengali); mukhya pertaining to face of mouth (Atharva veda); chief (Taittiriiya samhitaa); mukhiyaa village headman (Nepali); muuka dumb (Vaajasneyi samhitaa); muuga id. (Pali) Is it really possible to isolate the substratum phoneme: (m-k) from its inherent 'meaning' or 'image' related to: beak, nose, mouth, chin, mustache, face. moco goco = mustache (goco = beard); moca, mukha = mouth; mocon = mouth of animal; moToc = watering mouth; dumukhia = having two mouths; paRak moca = foul mouthed; mu~ = nose; mu~ get = to cut off nose; samuk = before one's face; mukha mukhi, mu~ha~ mu~hi~ = face to face; modabila = to face, to bring; cha=mua~u = to show one's face; mukhia = a leader (Santali) Munda languages provide the firm foundation to link the linguistic unity of South Asia in such substantive 'images' as I have tried to demonstrate in my dictionary. An excellent treatise is FBJ Kuiper's Pro-Munda words in Sanskrit, excerpts of which I have appended in the dictionary. I think I have proved that Burrow and Emeneau's work is an aberrant, erroneous construct of a artificial family; most of their etyma (over 4,000 out of 5,000) really belong with the rest of the family of languages of South Asia. If artists contend that the most distinguishing feature of a person that strikes a beholder is the nose, the phoneme (m-k) seems to be an adequate sound representation of the asscciated image or face of a person. If this is so, Burrow and Emeneau may be proved right. I believe, that it is not necessary to establish 'ancestry' for a word. If it is found across scores of languages spread across vast distances, and authenticated in very, very ancient literary texts and epigraphs, it does not really matter which phonetic variant came first, despite Mayrhoffer and Burrow/Emeneau disagreeing. What is more important are the 'images' associated with or evoked by the phonemic variants of a language-family. Philologists who, presently, agree with Mayrhoffer (who traces it to muh, muha of Afghan, Caucasusian) or Burrow/Emeneau may will find in the South Asian comparative, dictionary thousands of such 'imageable' words, and see the contours of the face of a South Asian lingua franca, bhaashaa, that dates back to great antiquity [rather than trying to split-hairs (mustache) on surface-level, superficial grammatical divergences between the so-called Indo-Aryan, so-called Munda and so-called Dravidian tongues]. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman 20/7 Warren Road, Mylapore, Madras 600-004, India Tel. 91-44-493-6288; Fax. 91-44-499-6380. >?From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org n Feb 25 07:57:25 95 Date: n 25 Feb 95 07:57:25 MNL From: "s. kalyanaraman" Subject: Re[4]: "kaumudii" Mr. Jakub; most of the nighaNTus are explanations of materia medica of the ayurvedic tradition. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: "kaumudii" Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 24/02/1995 9:40 PM Dear members. In connection with the kumuda-discussion and several other postings concerned with plant-topics I would like to ask for any references to literature about the flowers/plants occuring in Sanskrit (Prakrit) poetry, what are the poetical/mythological connotations of various plants in Indian literature. Also, is there any attempt of botanical Sanskrit-Latin (or whatever) dictionary which put more light on which plant is which than the classical Skt dictionaries do? To put it simply, any bibliography on plants in Skt liter. whether general intro or specific monografies is wanted. Thanks in advance again (not to post "thanks"messages after) Jakub -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 27 09:14:36 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 09:14:36 +0000 Subject: Flowers in literature (Re: kaumudii) Message-ID: <161227018746.23782.4945945143518562638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satyanand Kichenassamy's notes on Tamil poetic, warrior tradition are very important. The tradition of flowers in the Mundarica tradition is equally profound. cf. Rev. Hoffman's Encyclopaedia Mundarica on the flower festivals. The etymon puuja is also of significance in exploring the ancient traditions of South Asia. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Flowers in literature (Re: kaumudii) Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 27/02/1995 9:00 AM This is in answer to Jakub Ceyka's query. Regarding the subject of flowers in Indian poetical conventions, one should mention the very original use of flowers in Tamil. A quick search led me to the following references to monographs on the subject (all in Tamil, but I vaguely remember that one of them contains pictures and Latin equivalents): 1) Elancheran, Kovai, Ilakkiyam oru pUkkAtu, Rockfort Publ., Cennai (=the Tamil name of Madras) 1982, 767 pages 2) Tanammal, ILaTcumi, Canka ilakkiyattil malarkaL VAnati, Cennai, 1981, 3) Ayiram malarkaL (several authors). Some of the above are in Chicago, so I haven't looked at them. There are other sources for some of the more important flowers, on which I can post details if anyone is interested. I hope that this helps. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 27 09:40:05 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 09:40:05 +0000 Subject: Indology Research desk Message-ID: <161227018748.23782.9690063257337610556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Dominik; I agree with your views entirely. Perhaps, the simple solution is TrueType fonts for Windows/Mac/Unix. Portability is the key design feature. Indologists do not have to wait for the 16-bit Unicode. S. Kalyanaraman. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Indology Research desk Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 27/02/1995 9:30 AM A widely-admired workstation was designed for classical Greek scholars some years ago. David Packard (Packard Humanities Institute) was the force behind it. It was called the Ibycus Workstation and could display and process fully accented ancient Greek (and Latin), and had a blindingly fast text search engine blown into a chip so that it could find anything in the TLG (Thesaurus Linguae Grecae) in a nimi.sa. The people who could afford one loved it. As far as I know, it died from platform-specificity. It was the best tool for the job, but unfortunately that wasn't enough to make it a lasting success. Any design of a platform for Indological or Asian studies should take into account the history of the Ibycus, its strengths and weaknesses. A serious modern platform probably needs to be implemented purely in software (ANSI C), and to be portable across a number of operating systems, including at least Unix (Linux), OS/2 and perhaps Windows. Dominik From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Feb 27 15:41:47 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 09:41:47 -0600 Subject: Abhisekham Message-ID: <161227018762.23782.16503269640566901377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Feb. 27, 1995 RE: ABHISEKHAM -------------- Regarding the query on abhisekham on Gomatesvara statue at Sravanabelagola in Karnataka, I have a few additional references on abhisekham in general. Gabriella Eichenger Ferro-Luzzi 1) Abhisekha, the Indian rite that defies definition Anthropos, 76, p.707-742, 1981 She has a book on temple origin legends. Many have the legend that a cow stood over a linga in the forest and milk came out on its own bathing the lingam. Gabriella Eichenger Ferro-Luzzi The self-milking cow and the bleeding lingam: criss-cross of motifs in Indian temple legends. On related Naivedhya ritual, Gabriella Eichenger Ferro-Luzzi has few more papers: 1) Ritual as language: The case of South Indian food offerings. Current Anthropology, 18, p.507-514, 1977 2) The foods of the Gods versus Human food in South India L'Uomo, 5, p.239-266, 1981 3) The logic of South Indian food offerings. Anthropos, 72, 3-4, p.529-556, 1977 David Shulman's Tamil temple myths, Princeton, 1980 is also immensely helpful. Yours N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Feb 27 15:52:18 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 09:52:18 -0600 Subject: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary Message-ID: <161227018761.23782.2599272963755701342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While loath to get involved in this I fear largely fruitless conversation, allow me to ask one question. Dr. Kalyanaraman writes: > I believe, that it is not necessary to establish 'ancestry' for a word. >If > it is found across scores of languages spread across vast distances, and > > authenticated in very, very ancient literary texts and epigraphs, it does > > not really matter which phonetic variant came first, despite Mayrhoffer >and > Burrow/Emeneau disagreeing. What is more important are the 'images' > > associated with or evoked by the phonemic variants of a language-family. > > What exactly is meant here by "important"? We need not launch into a long discussion of etymology vs. usage, or invoke Bhart.rhari and so forth, I think, if we clarify first and foremost what it is we are after. What does each participant in this discussion mean by "important"? I suspect we will discover that in the different answers to that question lie the fundamental disagreements we have seen recently. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu Mon Feb 27 15:23:10 1995 From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 10:23:10 -0500 Subject: inofficial e-texts - interested??? Message-ID: <161227018756.23782.9414727522658132292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Robin Korman's informed comments on updating our dictionaries Would anyone be interested in helping to organize a Dictionary Organization Project, to collect and collate the informal materials into a new dictionary for Sanskrit, a new one for Tibetan, or perhaps into technical dictionaries by topic, much as can be found for western medical terminology, etc.? Ideally we could also include information from the Sanskrit and Tibetan lexicons--cited by actual title of each Lexicon, rather than simply from `Lexicons' as in Monier-Williams. Monier-Williams is an odd mixture, with occasional citations from the Kalacakra tantra, for instance. Jim Hartzell From apandey at u.washington.edu Mon Feb 27 18:52:49 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 10:52:49 -0800 Subject: Mythologization of history in Rgveda. Message-ID: <161227018757.23782.8568422875193417654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know whether this topic is proper for this group. I've been told that there is a sufficient lack of interest on topics such as these among the subscribers of this list, but since I have no other sources to turn to,, I will ask my question here. I've recently read a text called "The Ethnology of Ancient Bharata" by Ram Chandra Jain, in which the authour proposes that the history of the Aryan migration into India and the events which took place afterward, including the characters, ie. Varun, Mitr, Indr, etc, were mythologized. How widely accepted is this view? Thanks. Anshuman Pandey University of Washington Seattle, WA, USA From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Mon Feb 27 11:08:06 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 11:08:06 +0000 Subject: Addresses of private MS libraries in India Message-ID: <161227018768.23782.18146492582518799577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those who attended the Sanskrit Manuscripts sub-meeting at the Kerala ISIS conference last year will recall that Dr Kapila Vatsyayan asked us to submit to her by March the names and addresses of any private Sanskrit MS libraries known to us. If you have any such information, now would be a good time to send it in. If you would like me to collect and digest this info too, and put it as a file on the INDOLOGY file server, let me have a copy. Kapila *should* be reachable at kapila at ignca.ernet.in I was told a few days ago by Dr Murthy, the IGNCA librarian, that she does indeed receive email sent to this address, although I have never received a reply. Otherwise, write or FAX to IGNCA, C.V Mess, Janpath, New Delhi 110 001, INDIA. FAX: 91-11-381139. Dominik From kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu Mon Feb 27 19:10:50 1995 From: kharper at lmumail.lmu.edu (Harper, Katherine) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: ROOTS OF TANTRA SYMPOSIUM - REVISED Message-ID: <161227018759.23782.11338872921408451803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> THE ROOTS OF TANTRA, II - REVISED SCHEDULE UCLA - DICKSON ART CENTER, THIRD FLOOR 3260 MARCH 11, 1995 9:00 AM - COFFEE AND DONUTS 9:20 AM - WELCOME - Katherine Harper 9:30 AM - David Lorenzen, "Early Evidence for Tantric Religion." Respondent: Katherine Harper 10:30 AM - Lina Gupta, "Tantric Rituals in the Devi Purana." Respondent: Christopher Chapple 11:30 AM - Douglas Renfrew Brooks, "Auspicious Fragments and Uncertain Wisdom: The Roots of Srividya Sakta in South India." Respondent: Robert Brown ALL ARE WELCOME TO ATTEND From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Mon Feb 27 10:43:41 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 11:43:41 +0100 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018751.23782.567621404635468583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > aroung 5000 BC. Teutonic mythology does speak of Odin the first > ancestor and carrier of fire coming from the east. Do not scholars > still have to look eastwards to look ito the Aryan past ? Whereas This still seems to me to be a great misunderstanding on the side of those who deny the AIT. As far as I know, none of the historical philologists means by coming from the west coming from West Europe. The Aryans are thought to have come from some place west of India but east of West Europe, therefore it is quite logical that the Teutonic myths refer to coming from the east. Jakub Cejka From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Mon Feb 27 12:01:16 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 12:01:16 +0000 Subject: Prof. Kalyanaraman's postings on the Vedas Message-ID: <161227018749.23782.12979349608111097450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I entirely agree with Debashish Banerjee's comments. I hole the vedantic scholarship of Aurobindo and others with the utmost respect and revere their scholarship with the highest regard. A variety of interpretations of the rks are possible. I have just focused on only one process elucidated: soma. There are many rks whose padapaaTha, can be interpreted beyond their mere bhashaa or 'semantic' levels. In all such myriad, possible, interpretations, one common strand is apparent: that is, the 'metaphorical'. S. Kalyanaraman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Prof. Kalyanaraman's postings on the Vedas Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 27/02/1995 10:59 AM Over the last few weeks, Prof. Kalyanaraman has been very active on this list, and it has been, for me, an invariable pleasure to read his postings. As a result, I regret that he has to leave us now, and wish him the very best for the future. I hope he can get Internet access from Madras, and continue to enrich our discussions on the Indology list. I think that the monumental work he has done with the etymology of Indian word-roots will leave a legacy as indispensable to Indian Studies as the work of a Monier-Williams, and for this and for the unsparing energy and intelligence of his responses, I thank him on behalf of this list. However, regarding his postings on the meaning of Soma and other Vedic deities, while I read them with great interest, and concede their plausibility, I hope he does not expect us to believe that this is the only interpretation possible for these entities. It is, for me, absurd to imagine that that body of sruti that has been acknowledged by all subsequent Hindu thinking as the source and fountainhead of its lofty cognizings, is a mere treatise on Alchemy. Spiritual interpretations of the Vedas in more recent times, such as the work of Dayananda Saraswati or of Sri Aurobindo, do not overlook the fact that much scientific knowledge is hidden in the Vedas. Sri Aurobindo goes, in fact, one step further than Dayananda in saying that the sruti contains much scientific knowledge that has yet to be discovered by modern man. In a talk with a French scientist in 1926, Sri Aurobindo pointed out that the 3 forms of Agni enumerated in ancient yogic literature (jada agni, vaidyuta agni and saurya agni) stood respectively for what we call fire, electricity, and atomic energy.The third had not been discovered at the time of this talk. Sri Aurobindo says in the talk, "Science has only entered upon the first and second of these fires. The fact that the atom is like the solar system could lead it to the knowledge of the third." But of course, behind these three forms of fire there is chidagni, the fourth, conscious fire, spiritual Agni which is everywhere. "The child of the waters, the child of the forests, the child of things stable and the child of things that move. Even in the stone he is there", says the Rig Veda (I.70.2) A coherent spiritual cosmology, teleology, and method of yoga can be derived from the Vedas, and if such a derivation is possible, it must be the primary sense of this body of Knowledge, if we are to admit its eminence in the history of spiritual thought in India. Sri Aurobindo gives us such an interpretaion in his book "The Secret of the Veda". In this view, Soma stands for the principle of Delight or Ananda. In the being of the yajamana, sacrificer, the Soma-wine symbolizes the replacing of our ordinary sense-enjoyment by the divine Ananda. Therefore, a soma-wine offering is symbolic of the surrender of sense-enjoyment. The entire process of the soma sacrifice may be viewed in these psycho-spiritual terms. The stones, gravan or adri, which are used for the pressing of the stalks (amshu), are symbolic of the travails on the path of yoga, loosening or cracking the pashas of samskaras, and yielding the rasa, freed from personal attachment, for the offering to the gods. The pouring of the rasa through the purifying sieve, pavitra, represents the refinement of the senses, the higher emotional and mental offering, kept ready in the subjective consciousness of the adhara (chamasa or kalasha) for the delectation of Indra, Lord of the Divine Mind, who rejoices in the gift. Strengthened and delighted by this nectar, Indra pours the strength of Enlightenment into the yajamana and himself descends into the person of the latter, prepares him to transcend his humanity and eventually admits him into his native celestial abode or station of conscious- ness. As mentioned earlier, this is not to dismiss the possibility of an alchemical meaning also being hidden in this description. For those interested in more information on the book, "The Secret of the Veda", or on obtaining it, please write me privately. Debashish Banerji. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Feb 27 11:36:34 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 12:36:34 +0100 Subject: An alternative history of IE languages and the AIT. Message-ID: <161227018753.23782.7729749942026225302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> aroung 5000 BC. Teutonic mythology does speak of Odin the first >> ancestor and carrier of fire coming from the east. Do not scholars >> still have to look eastwards to look ito the Aryan past ? Whereas I would like to remind you that Odin is a mythological figure. To Snorri Sturluson, who has given us the information we have on old Norse mythology, Asia in this context must have been Turkey and South-Eastern Russia (the country to the east of the Black Sea). Placing Odin in Asia may very well have to do with the fact that the first syllable of the Old Norse spelling of Asia - 'As-ia - is reminscent of the Old Norse word for God: 'As. Snorri says: " (the land) To the east of (the river) Tanakvisl (=Tanais) in Asia was called 'Asaland or 'Asaheim (home of the 'As), and the main fort in that land they called 'Asgard". Snorri is actually trying to historicize a mythological narrative. His remarks on the ancient Nordic gods should be treated with the utmost care in discussions like this. Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Mon Feb 27 14:11:21 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 14:11:21 +0000 Subject: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary Message-ID: <161227018754.23782.9113834401632710324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. S. Kalyanaraman writes: > I believe, that it is not necessary to establish 'ancestry' for a >word. If > it is found across scores of languages spread across vast distances, >and > authenticated in very, very ancient literary texts and epigraphs, it >does > not really matter which phonetic variant came first, despite >Mayrhoffer and > Burrow/Emeneau disagreeing. What is more important are the 'images' > > associated with or evoked by the phonemic variants of a >language-family. The problem with this is that we know it is wrong for European languages where we have much more historical data. So rather the opposite is the case. If we cannot establish ancestry then we have little to rely on. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 27 19:57:05 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 14:57:05 -0500 Subject: once more about CSX Message-ID: <161227018764.23782.7757265591058827122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in response to Dominik's request: I have used all possible ascii characters in my Manjushree-CSX font to supplement the CSX coding. For example, I have used the upper ascii codes 1,2,3,4,5,7,14,15,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28, and 29. I have used these codes to represent characters like vowels with length, accent, and nasality. Normally such combinations are not needed by most Sanskritists, but they are needed to do hard-core Paninian material. These codes can be used on Mac. I do not know if they can be used on Windows. One could use these codes to accomodate some other language at least partially. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, 25 Feb 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Jakub Cejka said: > > I got acquainted with CSX by FTPing it from ftp.bcc.ac.uk I think, and the > > font is named CSX.VGA. I really cannot find there e,o with macrons! > > ... Do I have some outdated version of this font? > > No, you're absolutely right. There are e/o+tilde, breve, and grave and > acute are in IBM 437 (I now have strong reservations about using this as > a "bacground" to CSX; another topic for discussion). But no e,o+macron. > > Dravidologists: are e- and o-macron needed for Tamil? > > CSX is *really* meant only for Sanskrit (hence "Computer Sanskrit > eXtended"), but the thinking was that if the addition of one or two > extra letters could add a whole other S. Asian language then great. But > it may not be possible to take this very far, since there are fewer and > fewer characters that can be displaced easily. > > Madhav: could you answer about Manjushree etc? Thanks. > > Dominik > > > Original-Sender: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 21:04:25 +0000 From: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Message-ID: <0098CA0E.2AD8B25C.12 at vax.ox.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Re[4]: "kaumudii" I haven't noticed a reply to the request for books about plants in Sanskrit literature. Forgive me if I am duplicating information that has already been sent. The Maadhavanidaana and its chief commentary, Chapters 1--10. by G.J.Meulenbeld. Leiden 1974. Appendix 4 is an index of Sanskrit names which gives the Latin names assigned to them by various botanists. A supplement to the same index appears as an appendix to Das Wissen von der Lebensspanne der Baeume--Suurapaalas V.rk.saayurveda. ed. Rahul Peter Das. Stuttgart 1988. See also: Die Flora Altindiens. Renate Syed. Munich ?1991. From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Feb 27 23:09:59 1995 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 17:09:59 -0600 Subject: "kaumudii" Message-ID: <161227018765.23782.7628566082933693329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Goodall mentioned >Die Flora Altindiens. >Renate Syed. Munich ?1991. Has this thesis been published? I once tried to have it ordered by the University of Michigan library, but apparently without success (at least they did not obtain it while I was still there). Are copies / once copy somehow available in North America? Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Tue Feb 28 07:52:42 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 07:52:42 +0000 Subject: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictiona Message-ID: <161227018767.23782.17060922133916459160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Lance Cousins; I agree with you that where historical records are available, definite reliance can be placed on 'dating' a morpheme. In languages of South Asia (with a scanty recorded historical tradition -- whatever leads exist almost verge on mythological), an alternative could be the basic principle found in ALL writing systems (including Chinese): 'imaging' the sounds. [Chinese is a direct representation of the sound and its meaning; Egyptian hieroglyphics and other writing systems represent the 'image' of a homonymous sound.] The problem of 'history of a spoken word' becomes extremely complex for many languages which did without a distinctive script, e.g. Tulu and many Austro-Asiatic tongues. In such cases, corroborative evidence of archaeology may help? S. Kalyanaraman Madras Tel. 91-44-493-6288 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 27/02/1995 10:20 PM Dr. S. Kalyanaraman writes: > I believe, that it is not necessary to establish 'ancestry' for a >word. If > it is found across scores of languages spread across vast distances, >and > authenticated in very, very ancient literary texts and epigraphs, it >does > not really matter which phonetic variant came first, despite >Mayrhoffer and > Burrow/Emeneau disagreeing. What is more important are the 'images' > > associated with or evoked by the phonemic variants of a >language-family. The problem with this is that we know it is wrong for European languages where we have much more historical data. So rather the opposite is the case. If we cannot establish ancestry then we have little to rely on. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 0161 434 3646 From s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org Tue Feb 28 08:06:55 1995 From: s._kalyanaraman at mail.asiandevbank.org (s. kalyanaraman) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 08:06:55 +0000 Subject: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictiona Message-ID: <161227018770.23782.5857910327954879495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Jonathan Silk; I believe that this is very 'fruitful' conversation. The question is excellent, in fact, 'important' in further accepting the basic limitations of all etymological excursions. I suppose all the participants are tracing the roots of our civilization using language and other disciplines as the means. Isn't indology, by definition, study of the South Asian (?Indic) ancient civilization? Maybe, I am understanding it all wrong, Jonathan; let a myriad contrary views flow from all directions and enrich our common quest. Best regards. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman Madras Tel. 91-44-493-6288. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Semantic clustering technique in South Asian dictionary Author: indology at liverpool.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 28/02/1995 3:36 AM While loath to get involved in this I fear largely fruitless conversation, allow me to ask one question. Dr. Kalyanaraman writes: > I believe, that it is not necessary to establish 'ancestry' for a word. >If > it is found across scores of languages spread across vast distances, and > > authenticated in very, very ancient literary texts and epigraphs, it does > > not really matter which phonetic variant came first, despite Mayrhoffer >and > Burrow/Emeneau disagreeing. What is more important are the 'images' > > associated with or evoked by the phonemic variants of a language-family. > > What exactly is meant here by "important"? We need not launch into a long discussion of etymology vs. usage, or invoke Bhart.rhari and so forth, I think, if we clarify first and foremost what it is we are after. What does each participant in this discussion mean by "important"? I suspect we will discover that in the different answers to that question lie the fundamental disagreements we have seen recently. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in Tue Feb 28 09:40:44 1995 From: dom at uclblr.iisc.ernet.in (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 09:40:44 +0000 Subject: "kaumudii" (plant bibliographies) Message-ID: <161227018771.23782.12278454331366692579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jakub Cejka said: > To put it simply, any bibliography on plants in Skt liter. whether > general intro or specific monografies is wanted. Two important publications on Indian medicinal plants have recently emerged from the milieu of practitioners, botanists and herbalists at the renowned ayurvedic centre, the Arya Vaidya Shala at Kottakal, Kerala (excuse the LaTeX codes): 1/ Vaidyaratnam P. S. Varier's Arya Vaidya Sala, Kottakal. 1994-~. \emph{Indian medicinal plants: a compendium of 500 species} (Madras, etc.: Orient Longman). Vols. 1--3. To be completed in 5 vols. (500 plants). 2/ Sivarajan, V. V. and Indira Balachandran. 1994. \emph{Ayurvedic drugs and their plant sources} (New Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta: Oxford \& IBH Publishing). Both books contain useful plant illustrations of most species by R. Vasudevan Nair, former head of the department of Botany, Govt. Victoria Colege, Palakkad, the former includes some colour illustrations. There are, many, many older books on materia medica. For a history of early floristic and botanical activities in India see the beautiful book: 3/ Desmond, Ray. 1992. \emph{The European discovery of the Indian flora} (Oxford, Delhi, etc.: Royal Botanic Gardens \& OUP). Some of the classics are: 4/ Kirtikar, K. R., B. D. Basu, and an I.C.S. 1933. \emph{Indian Medicinal Plants}. Ed.\ and rev.\ by E. Blatter, J. F. Caius and K. S. Mhaskar (Allahabad: Lalit Mohan Basu). 4 vols. text, 4 vols. illustrations. Recently reprinted at Dehra Dun (ca. 1991/2) and available for ca. 5000 Rs. and 5/ Nadkarni, A. K. 1954. \emph{Dr. K. M. Nadkarni's Indian materia medica, with ayurvedic, unani-tibbi, siddha, allopathic, homeopathic, naturopathic \& home remedies, appencices \& notes} (Bombay: Popular Prakashan). 2 vols. Nadkarni is available everywhere in Indian bookshops, and despite its flaws it often contains very useful information missing elsewhere. Finally, a source one might overlook: I recall that when Richard Gombrich and Margaret Cone translated the Vessantarajataka ("The perfect generosity of Prince Vessantara"), Margaret worked hard on an appendix in which she identified a large number of the numerous plants and flowers mentioned in the Pali text. Dominik Original-Sender: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 22:19:02 +0000 From: goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Message-ID: <0098CAE1.C1A33A94.8 at vax.ox.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Re[4]: "kaumudii" Die Flora Altindiens has been published. I am told that it is distributed privately by Renate Syed from the institute in Munich. Dominic Goodall.