From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Dec 1 00:08:02 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:08:02 -0800 Subject: Book phtocopy needed Message-ID: <161227021899.23782.227629237174046676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to locate a copy of the book Vedaanta-panca-prakara.nii, printed at Sri Vidya Press of Kumbhakonam. M. Hiryanna refers to it an old article in the Indian Historical Quarterly but does not give any more particulars. The part of Vedaanta-panca-prakara.nii which interests me specifically is Guru-ratna-maalikaa by Sadaa;siva Brahmendra. It is possible that the Guru-ratna-maalikaa is available also as a separate publication and is known also asJagad-guru-ratna-maalaa-stava. If your responses reach me before 2 Dec I shall try to respond them before leaving for a trip to India. Otherwise, kindly wait until 9 January to hear from me. Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. Fax O: 822-8937 From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Fri Dec 1 12:05:14 1995 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 07:05:14 -0500 Subject: Re Ms. Doniger's translations Message-ID: <161227021904.23782.1507530104561607204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >[...] I should think that the strictly symbolic interpretation of Vedic > mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of thinking. I am not sure if Kumarila Bhatta counts as non-modern. Isn't he supposed to have explained Prajapati chasing his daughter as Sun coming after the Dawn? I also thought that `Nature Mythology' approach was at least as old as Yaska. Re: "Freedom of Expression": I wonder if this idea will fly in the depts of Women's Studies, African-American Studies etc. Anyway, I thought that lack of sensititvity to one's subjects is a particular fault of `Big Bad Masculine Science'. I am just curious as to what the reaction to the following thought experiment is: Imagine a child psycologist explaining why toddlers put crayons in their mouth. Crayons, being right circular cylinders covered in a thin sheath and having an exposed conical tip, are obvious phallic symbols. Toddlers bite on crayons to express their hostility towards their fathers. -Nath Nath Rao (natharao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Fri Dec 1 14:31:58 1995 From: ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU (ACHARB at MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 08:31:58 -0600 Subject: RE Ms. Doniger's translations Message-ID: <161227021906.23782.15867321982524088698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello: I received a message from PIPELINE-usa to resend the message I had submitted on Nov 24,95. Here it is: > Lars Martin Fosse wrote > i am afraid that the concept of gods and deities in vedas is not quite unique >as it is assumed here. Most of the qualities cited are part and parcel of all >ancient Indo-European mythologies. E.g. both ancient Greek and Nordic gods can >change in to any shape they want, and do so frequently..... > I am sure there are differences with respect to the applicability of "manushya dharma" to gods. Perhaps, some body else can clarify. > > It seems hard to interpret Rudra's arrow against prajapati as anything but a >punishment for a real offense. I should think that strictly symbolic interpretation of Vedic mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of thinking. > One aspect of Rudra is the personification of anger, hence "raudravatara". Daksha(prajapati) also means ritual skill. The symbolic meaning here is that rituals performed without observing proper protocol could lead to disastrous results. Since Yaska says that "manushya dharma" does not apply to gods, when human like relationships are described, they can only be symbolic. I see nothing "modern" about it. > >annoyance...has also been expressed by e. g. Christian theologians, who had to >see their most revered truths analysed in the same kind of scholarly language, >not necessarily Freudian, but nevertheless....... > "not necessarily Freudian", that is the whole point, freedom of speech not withstanding. > >personally, I find many religious ideas offensive, but I don't complain about >other people expressing them as long as I may express my own ideas. We simply >have to live with the fact that people have a right to express their view, >whether we feel hurt or not. People who feel secure about their beliefs usually can take quite a bit of criticism or irreverent language without >getting too upset. > > yes, if it were only that. The academic criticisms would have been just like "the dog barking at the full moon". But now, misrepresentations such as those of Ms. Doniger, in the hands of persons like Pat Robertson is propagated to millions of believing people. That is the cause of the hurt. Best regards, -Narahari From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Fri Dec 1 08:35:59 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 09:35:59 +0100 Subject: sanskrit conferences (RENOU conference) Message-ID: <161227021901.23782.425371315397704937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cher coll?gue, Pourriez-vous m'envoyer des renseignements compl?mentaires au sujet du congr?s en l'honneur de Louis Renou? J'aimerais bien y participer. Avec mes salutations les meilleures, Johannes Bronkhorst > > >A conference will be held in Paris in january 1996. >The title is to be: > >Langue, style, structure dans le monde indien. >Colloque international en l'honneur de Louis Renou (1896-1966) > >It is organized by URA 1058 "LACMI" (Paris III, CNRS) > >There will be four sessions: > >- Etudes vediques >- Grammaire indienne >- Morphologie et lexicologie >- Poesie et forme des textes > >Date: 1996 january 25-26-27 > >Some 23 scholars have confirmed their participation. > >The precise schedule and program will be circulated in a few weeks. > >- Jean-Luc Chevillard > (CNRS, URA 381 [HTL] -- Universite Paris 7, departement de linguistique) > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Dec 1 11:37:51 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 11:37:51 +0000 Subject: Dott. Enrica Garzilli's Complaint Message-ID: <161227021902.23782.4921919172771996639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Ludovico Magnocavallo ... = [Kelijaya] B.rhada"sva! How delightful. Dominik From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Dec 1 14:44:36 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 15:44:36 +0100 Subject: Re Ms. Doniger's translations Message-ID: <161227021907.23782.15202296082426118031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath K. Rao wrote: > >>[...] I should think that the strictly symbolic interpretation of Vedic >> mythology suggested here is a rather modern way of thinking. > >I am not sure if Kumarila Bhatta counts as non-modern. Isn't he supposed >to have explained Prajapati chasing his daughter as Sun coming after the >Dawn? As far as I remember, the ancient Indians talked about three levels of interpretation. (adhyatma, adhideva, don't remember the third one) Shankara often interprets the Vedas in terms of nature mythology. In other words, their ideas about interpretation were not as simpleminded as the impression I seem to have given. What I suggested, however, is that their interpretation was not *strictly* symbolic. In other words, they may have allowed other interpretations than the symbolic one. I should also add that there was a continuous development of ideas in ancient India, just as in Europa. The myths related in the Vedic literature most probably had a concrete interpretation when they were created, but posterity certainly read more into the myths than a mere concrete chain of events. >Re: "Freedom of Expression": I wonder if this idea will fly in the depts >of Women's Studies, African-American Studies etc. Anyway, I thought that >lack of sensititvity to one's subjects is a particular fault of `Big Bad >Masculine Science'. A certain lack of sensitivity is germane to all critical thought. You can't tear apart time-honored, but false, ideas and values and at the same time remain sensitive to the feelings of the "true believers" who rely upon the old ideas, whoever they are. I understand the reference to Women's Studies etc. as a reference to the problem of Political Correctness. In my humble opinion, PCness should be shunned by any serious academic. But of course, then you may not get a job.... >I am just curious as to what the reaction to the following thought >experiment is: Imagine a child psycologist explaining why toddlers put >crayons in their mouth. Crayons, being right circular cylinders covered >in a thin sheath and having an exposed conical tip, are obvious phallic >symbols. Toddlers bite on crayons to express their hostility towards >their fathers. It could also be construed as a kind of symbolic suicide: "If I don't get candy, I'll eat crayons till I die". Anybody with theories about immanent death-wish would love this. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Dec 1 18:26:03 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 17:26:03 -0100 Subject: Again this W.W Message-ID: <161227021909.23782.4189076574937622733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, If there is anybody who is waisting time and space of others and espeacially of those giving time and space for free to others who are trying to do good work with that,herewith and to say 'This is my time and space also and if you, espeacially W.W., can't imagine or don't want to do so,that you are wasting our space and time,I am calling herewith the Inquisition to raise force against this. Please give me all your pardon for not having other words to handle with this. Yours faithfully Ulrich From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Fri Dec 1 22:36:32 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 22:36:32 +0000 Subject: Medevial india Message-ID: <161227021910.23782.1973711680682515667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote : the two-volume "Hindu Temples: What Happened to them" by Sita Ram Goel et al. (which lists mosques across India that are claimed to be built out of the ruin of Hindu temples, and which should therefore be torn down), and Koenraad Elst's "Ram Janmabhoomi vs. Babri Masjid: A case study in Hindu-Muslim conflict" which has already been discussed on INDOLOGY --------- To begin wih, I wish point out a couple of errors. The two volume work by Sita Ram Goel is primarily a compilation of the works of the muslim scribes who witnessed the era of the coming of Islam in India and its subsequent control of the sub-continent for over eight hundred years. A lot of these works are in libraries all over the world. Nowhere in his book does he advocate the breaking of mosques. The Elst book discussed on Indology was "Negationism in India". It is true that negationism in India has official sanction. The Government has forbidden the representation of medevial India as a period of conflict between Hindus and Muslims in any school history book. It is a serious scholarly work written in response to the book by Sita Ram Goel on the Islamic evidence on destruction of Hindu Temples. I would be most interested to see a very scholarly rebuttal of Elst's thesis; the kind imparted on this forum earlier conjured an image of a doctor bursting into screams of "pronography" at the sight of a naked patient. It is terrible that medevial India was a time of crumbling Hindu civilisation, and in general a time of great terror , anguish and destruction to the people of the subcontinent. That does not preclude it from an examination. Hindu scribes in general maintain a silence about this period; A silence similar to the silence of Russian scribes when the Mongols conquered Russia. The story of the details of the destruction, and the story of what transpired on the conquered has not been fully told and in general there reamins a historical amnesia of this period. The above books have made a valuable contribution in bringing these issues to debate. However revolting or gory, a clear historical reconstruction of that period must be a part of public debate instead of suppression. A society with a clear and commonly shared historical vision can heal itself of past wrongs and make a fresh start. In the U.S., there is no shirking from a clear public debate on the severe wrongs imparted to American Indians and Afro-Americans, and his leads to the most creative forms of healing. A society with historical amnesia will continue to be haunted by demons it cannot understand. I think that the criticism of those who use Hinduism to further their political ends is in general warrented. The factions which advocate the reclamation of some mosques are in general rogues who are trying to encash on a bank of historical resentment. However, in general these guys are pussycats comapred to the Muslim fundamentalists waging jihad in India, particulary in Kashmir. It is a source of amazement to me that in the only muslim majority state drives out 300000 Kasmiri Pandits and nary a mew from the lions who roar in moral outrage in the name of goodness at Hindu fundamentalists ! I think it would take a bit more courage in light of the fate of Rushdie; It does somewhat dim the fire of noble ideal of fairness, free speech, objectivity etc. As I read thru the writings of the muslim scribes, I am in general familiar with the terrain, the people, places etc about which they write. One can only imagine the terror and misfortune which befell those who lived along the invasion and occupation regions. Indian slaves filled up slave markets all the way to Baghdad. Each Turkish soldier family had several slaves. What is the story of these people and their fate ? What kind of population displacements occured and what was life under 'jeziya' like ? What kind of images and human drama would a reconstruction of that period conjure ? These remain valid historical questions and will all eventually be looked at. Historical awareness has the power to defuse banks of resentment based on folk-memory of both Hindus and Muslims of the subcontinent. Otherwise there is never a basis for a a look to the future and a new beginning. This is why I would like to encourage scholars to read these works and It will be very refreshing to see a scholarly critique of the subject. Sincere Regards, J.B. Sharma Gainesville College From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sat Dec 2 06:48:42 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 00:48:42 -0600 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021911.23782.13031397175341965889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to >J.B. Sharma >Gainesville College: Some of the literature mentioned by Mr. Sharma warrants consideration but the books of Koenraad Elst are written in a hate mongering style and are not very professional. I read several of his books and though I was interested to know what he was saying, I detested the WAY that he said it. He is fostering and encouraging a nonforgiving communalism. His books are unfootnoted and read like propaganda. He would do the world a favor to cool down the rhetoric. The obvious problems of any discourse of "Civic Culture" in India are seemingly overwhelming. The inherent cleavages between perceptions of India's past, the role of its various ethnic/religious groups and how they acted upon history and upon one another, are so completely juxtaposed that a reconciliation in the interpretation and reconstruction of historical evidence is very challenging in the South Asian context. The divergences between Hindu and Muslim imperative memories as to their civilizations' responses and responsibilities are diametrically opposed. Could not almost any reading of India's "Glorious Past" be construed as communalism depending on who was reading it? The history of Islam's arrival in India and the "Triumph of the Mogul Empire" is a proud and noble story to a Muslim but to many Hindus it is a story of rape and pillage. Conversely, the story of Hindu philosophic traditions and their powerful contribution to human thought and the "Triumph of Indic Civilization" could be an affront to a Muslim who sees Hinduism as an idolatrous and pagan challenge to the one true God and the Islamic invasions as wars of liberation. How does one teach "national civic culture" or even a basic history class in a country such as India, divided as she is by such sharp distinctions in perceptions of the past? Hindutva and the now increasingly popular Sangh Parivar were obvioulsy not born overnight nor divorced from the fluidity of Indian psychological experiences. Is it not simply a fundamentalist movement, defined broadly as a selective rehabilitating of traditions superimposed on modern society as a reaction to modernity (or perceived internal or externals threats) in an attempt to access political power or social change. Nor can it be sanctimoniously dismissed as a fascist movement. Like it or not, Hindutva and the Sangh Parivar is a popular mass movement and their views will demand agency. We can not undismantle the Babri Masjid any more than we can unstorm the Bastille. Ignoring it will only cause it to grow more aggressive. Something has to give. I don't think it will be the voters. BJP has 21% of the Lok Sabha seats. 21%! In a county with more than two parties, this is a mandate! We can no longer simply blast the Sangh Parivar, denigrating them to fascists, while lamenting the end of Indic civilization. (Which, BTW, has "ended" many times in the past five thousand years!) Hopefully, this Sangh Parivar movement will bring a new era of critical inquiry into Indian scholarship . Indian civilization is not and has never been static. It is not and did not unfold in a vacuum. As scholars we understand that culture is not just textually embedded. The Sangh Parivar must be deconstructed in a modern India that is seen as more than a colonial/ post-colonial/ neo-colonial expression, denied the operational exigencies of postmodern cultural adaptivity and social and political agency. In India, as in the rest of the world, postmodern influences abound-- late 20th century responses are driven by civilizational prerogatives and post-industrial imperatives of the information age. It could be argued that since India is not truly a post-industrial country, this paradigm is inapplicable. However, traditional and post-modern variables are all working simultaneously. They are not mutually exclusive. Chronological orderings are insufficient and look more for justification instead of an inclusiveness. Whatever models we develop to study India can not be frozen or we run the risk of dehumanizing and essentializing. Indian civilization is very fluid with countless cross-cleavages and counterpoised and over-lapping factions. Sangh Parivar is just anouther factor in this complex civilizational tapastry of India in which culture constantly recreates itself. The discourses of cultural theory that are applied in India fall short unless their models are fluid enough to incompass such complexities. In the late 20th century there is no civilization that is not elastic and plastic and liminal at the edges leading to restructuring of thought at the center that draws form from internalizing a myriad of simultaneous stimuli both foreign and domestic, ancient and modern. (Time and again the center shifts and history takes another course.) "East is East and West is West" is a discourse that died several decades ago. Multi-dimentional, multi-perceptival multiculturalism is inherent and integral in the postmodern East and West. India, with its much touted "absorptive, pluralistic, universal" nature would certainly recreate itself with these tools, in this context. This in mind, the long term results of the Sangh Parivar movement will ultimately have a catalizing effect on Indian politics amd scholarship, if the more moderate leaders, and also luckily, the most popular, are not censured. If India is to continue to recreate itself as all nations must do in order to survive and progress, there has to be a dialogue. How does one then come to a consensus concerning the teaching of Indian history? What fills one group with pride fills another with shame or pain. This a very tricky debate and must be openly and critically explored. Yvette C. Rosser ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT." * Justice Learned Hand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Sat Dec 2 21:46:46 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 15:46:46 -0600 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021916.23782.12159948480458590702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DR. TRITSCH, In your message, you objected to what I had written: "( . . .) we can no longer simply blast the Sangh Parivar, denigrating them to fascists, while lamenting the end of Indic civilization." "Fascism" is the classification of the movement and the predicted catastrophic results of their ideas, if implemented, as determined by the Congress Party, the Indian media and the majority of current scholarship. It is essentially the only story that is available, especially in the West where we are cut off from the BJP propaganda machine or first hand observations. There is no dialogue happening in the main stream press and in accepted academic circles. The point that I thought that I was making in my previous message was that calling these Sangh Parivar people fascists is applying yet another Western discourse overlaid on the India idioms where it makes an uncomfortable fit. You said: "Lets call a spade a spade!" But, is this really a "spade"? Maybe it's a "hoe" and we are just looking at part of it and then, seeing the similarity, compare it to what *we* call a "spade" in *our* cultural tool shed. Is Sangh Parivar fascist because RSS has a hierarchical structure, not democratically selected? Isn't that they way all Hindu organizations have historically been organized? Do we call the Rama Krishna Mission or any of a thousand ashrams and religious communities fascist? It could be argued that RSS has, at least in part, an indigenous organizational model. Some historians claim that Hedgewar was more influenced by the Boy Scouts than the fascists. Was the politburo fascist? Some may have thought so, but we called them Communist. Do we call the Sangh fascist because they have an exclusivist view of Hindu culture in so far they consider it as the source of all wisdom and the one truly universalistic religion? Then practically every religion and every reform movement and every nationalist organization could be classified as fascist. The creation of the "evil other" is certainly not specific to fascism and this scape goating mentality unfortunately exists in the highest level of all modern states. We don't call Pat Robertson fascist for his hate campaign against Hindus. We call him a warped fundamentalist Christian. We don't call Chirac fascist for bombing Pacific atolls, we call him a right winger but not a fascist. We don't call the Quebecois fascist , we call them Francophone nationalists. I think the ease with which the Sangh Parivar is labeled fascist is more a result of not agreeing with them and then not knowing what else to call them. Fascism is, in post W.W.II terms, just about the worst political insult possible. I think that there is a bigger picture here. I personally disagree with most of what the Sangh stands for but I'm not so sure that they are simply fascists. They seem pretty ready to compromise on lots of things, almost flip-flopping on some issues, which is not very fascist of them. This is another point I tried to make in my previous post-- simply by ignoring them or painting them black, won't solve any problems. There are enough aspects of the BJP that, in the jargon of occidental politics, would make them appear as leftist (i.e.: pro-abortion). There are other elements of their political agenda that are quite centrist. As they gain political power, I think, judging from the indications, these centrist orientations will obtain. It's the name of the political game. The outsiders move to the center the center moves to the periphery. One need not have read Foucault to see the repetition of history. You said: ">Surely Ms. Rosser has enough experience of the Indian political scene to know just what rogues are at work, pretending to uphold Hindu traditions." I am just speaking to one aspect of the perception of the Sangh Parivar. I am not justifying their means or their goals. But unless we look carefully at THEIR literature, we will not know what they intend except through the eyes of their distracters. Then how can dialogue succeed? You stated: >Both J.B. Sharma and Yvette Rosser really try to be objective about >the situation, but the slips they make show how very difficult it >must be. I'm not sure where I slipped, please explain. I certainly nevr said that I am not pro-Sangh nor that I agree with them. I just think that as scholars, perhaps we should re-evaluate our constructs and monikers regarding them. Your comment: >(. . .)we need to distinguish between the disastrous >consequences for India if the people behind the RSS, Hindutva etc. >with their fascist rhetoric gain power, Are you sure that India would be disastrously effected? Is this not *your* perspective? Is there another way to look at the situation? Are there other view points? Is there no room for dialogue? What if they DO win the majority in the Lok Saba in 1996? Is that the end of Indic civilization as we know it? Do you really think so? >The argument that 21% of the vote commands respect is no more valid in >India than it >was in pre-Nazi Germany. Nor in Newt Gingrich's America! Whose Contract on America? Whose Hindutva? It's not MY agenda, but we still have to look at it squarely. (BTW, I heard that in the first election in which Hitler ran, he won by only ONE VOTE!!!) Do you really think that if the BJP comes to power they will set up concentration camps for Muslims and chambers to gas millions of them? Do you really think that Muslims will be herded up and walled into Muslim ghettos? (They already live in Muslim ghettos!) God! I hope not! I think we have to be careful with our predictions. 1996 India is not 1930's Germany. India is so much more part of the world, the global village mentality prevails especially in the Sangh who nurtures their diasporic members. I think if the BJP comes to power it won't be that great a change. Political exegencies prevail! Reagan was about as right wing a demagogue as we've had in the White House, but for the average Joe on the street, what was the difference between Carter's and Reagan's eras? As I said, simply ascribing the title of fascist on them will not make them go away. You are right we need to look at "why people accept and believe such rhetoric and vote for them." Indian voters are not stupid and blind, though when voters elect a candidate who is not of *our* particular choice, we may say that they are suffering from mass illusion or have been deluded and manipulated. If these same stupid voters who have no agency and are just pawns in the power plays of elites were to vote for a candidate that we did support, would we think that they had finally come to their senses? Yvette C. Rosser ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT." * Justice Learned Hand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sat Dec 2 17:55:21 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 17:55:21 +0000 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021918.23782.12417208324718373430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark Tritsch Wrote : >Both J.B. Sharma and Yvette Rosser really try to be objective about >the situation, but the slips they make show how very difficult it >must be. I did not get the entire message and so I paraphrase his referral to slave markets in India being full of Indian slaves due to intercene warfare; This being the reason for the "slips". ----- There is no tradition of slavery among the Hindus and there were no slave markets in pre-Islamic India. There are no elaborate prescriptions for taking slaves, codes of behavior of master and slave, fraction of booty to be sent to the Caliph etc. I am not a member of Indian polity, though am a very interested observer. If BJP are indeed facists, what does that make the Christain Democrats who have ruled most of western Europe after the 2nd WW ? All fundamentalism is bad; My point is to say that there has been a severe imbalance in the debates on this topic on Indology. Hindu's do not have scriptural exhortation to kill non-Hindus. Children in Madrasas all over the sub-continent are still taught that living under the rule of Kafirs is Haram. Sensible Muslim intellectuals like Hamid Dalwai have written that Muslims in India should give up the concept of India being Dar-ul-Harb (land of the enemy) and not look to west-asia for culture (where they are held in disdain). These voices of reason are drowned out by the mullahs for whom the medevial injuntions are unchangeable. I have never seen a criticism of the violent Muslim fundamentalism on the sub-continent on this forum. Since partition, Pakistan had a greater than 20% minority (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians). Today it is about 0.5%. Such cahnges have occured in Bangladesh and Kashmir as well. Once more all of this eludes the keepers of goodness like water off of a duck ! I do hope thatthe ideal of fairness in free speech will prevail, and discussions of fundamentalism on the sub-continent will be of all the parties involved. Personally, I dont care if the BJP or the Conress wins; I do care for there to be a free and fair process where the people can decide for themselves. Regards, J.B. Sharma From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Sat Dec 2 17:53:15 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Dr. M.F. Tritsch) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 18:53:15 +0100 Subject: References to color blindness Message-ID: <161227021913.23782.10837057882079454303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not an indologist, but I am hoping members of the indology list will help me with an interesting problem of medical history. Reading a book by H. v. Glasenapp on Shankara (Der Stufenweg zum Goettlichen), I discovered a reference to color blindness as a metaphor for maayaa. He says maayaa is like when someone sees the moon double or MISTAKES SOMETHING WHITE FOR YELLOW. v. Glasenapp does not give the source - can anyone help here? And are there other old texts from India which refer to color blindness in some way? This would especially interest me! The example with white and yellow is very unusual, as this kind of color blindness is rare (more common is red and green) - but perhaps people using these colors a lot (religious garments, etc.) notice it more. In the ancient literature of the west, there is very little mention of color blindness. Thanks in advance for any help! Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Sat Dec 2 18:57:12 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Dr. M.F. Tritsch) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 19:57:12 +0100 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021915.23782.14359888086726052509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 2. Dec Yvette Rosser wrote: .......deleted..... > Like it or not, Hindutva > and the Sangh Parivar is a popular mass movement and their views will > demand agency (...) Ignoring it will only cause it to grow more > aggressive. Something has to give. I don't think it will be the voters. > BJP has 21% of the Lok Sabha seats. 21%! In a county with more than two > parties, this is a mandate! We can no longer simply blast the Sangh > Parivar, denigrating them to fascists, while lamenting the end of Indic > civilization. ........deleted....... Are they NOT fascists? Lets call a spade a spade! Surely Ms. Rosser has enough experience of the indian political scene to know just what rogues are at work, pretending to uphold hindu traditions. Both J.B.Sharma and Yvette Rosser really try to be objective about the situation, but the slips they make show how very difficult it must be. J. B. Sharma refers to the "indian slaves on the slave markets of Baghdad". But what about the indian slaves on the slave markets of India! Was not taking slaves a regular practice among warring nations at that time, also WITHIN India? Suggestion: we need to distinguish between the disastrous consequences for India if the people behind the RSS, Hindutva etc with their fascist rhetoric gain power, and the reasons why people accept and believe such rhetoric and vote for them. The argument that 21% of the vote commands respect is no more valid in India than it was in pre-Nazi Germany. Regards, Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sun Dec 3 08:12:16 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 00:12:16 -0800 Subject: Medevial india Message-ID: <161227021919.23782.3999244299855470575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the recent discussion on Sitaram Goel and Koenrad Elst's books - Both books seem to me to be no more than propaganda material. While Goel may only have compiled the accounts of Muslim scribes, there is an underlying fundamentalist propaganda mentality in his book. Koenrad Elst is a curious phenomenon. Here is a Belgian with an almsot missionary zeal for VHP activity, who writes about negationism in India and gives talks at homes of expatriate Indians in the US. I have seen and heard the man. Suffice it to say he did not leave me with a favorable impression. The attitude of most Indians in the audience seemed to be, "Yes! Here is a white male saying the things that we have wanted to say for ages. Bravo." While I agree that there is no real discussion of Muslim fundamentalism in the subcontinent, I doubt this list is an appropriate place to do it. It is difficult for people whose academic interests lie in dharmakIrtI or sadASiva brahmendra to be enthusiastic about discussing the perils of fundamentalism. That does not mean that Hindu fundamentalism should not be discussed, just because Muslim fundamentalism is not. As Ms. Rosser points out, however, political expediency will rule if the BJP comes to power. The immediate partners of the BJP are much more committed to a rigid fundamentalist agenda, and they are more dangerous in the larger sense. A prime example is the Shiv Sena, which now rules in Maharashatra. Bal Thackeray, the leader of the Shiv Sena, has openly expressed admiration of Hitler. Is it very surprising then, if others think there are fascist tendencies in the "Hindutva" group? Hinduism does not have scriptural exhortation to kill others. Hindutva fanatics may not have to wait for scriptural sanction. In other words, there need be no correlation between specific scriptural exhortation to kill infidels and the fact that specific groups are targeted to be killed. The reality of the 1993 riots in Bombay should serve as an example. One does not have to rake up medieval history to find the psychological roots of religious fundamentalism in India. Partition took place just fifty years ago. It is easy to pretend that India is "secular" while Pakistan is not. Secularism as an ideal has always been something that was imposed from up above, rather than something that came from within. Our fifty years of existence as indepedent India are more responsible for today's expressions of fundamentalism than the wrongs of a few centuris ago. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sun Dec 3 08:37:30 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 00:37:30 -0800 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021920.23782.129867092968233144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > a "spade" in *our* cultural tool shed. Is Sangh Parivar fascist because > RSS has a hierarchical structure, not democratically selected? Isn't that > they way all Hindu organizations have historically been organized? Do we If one wants to have a serious discussion of this, I think even the term "Sangh Parivar" essentializes and dehumanizes. The Parivar is no more united than the various communist parties in India are united. Various personality based factions constantly jockey for power within the so-called parivar. Also, paradoxically, the supposedly democratic Congress (I) has had no internal elections in ages. Every Indian knows about the culture of sycophancy and toadyism prevalent within the Congress. As of today, and it has been that way for a few decades now, the Congress (I) has been hierarchically organized in more ways than one. On the other hand the BJP has regular internal elections and its leaders come and go. The application of the term "fascist", therefore seems more to do with their eventual goals of where they want to take the country, rather than their internal structure. But I agree with Ms. Rosser. The "fascist" appellation seems to be a way of classifying the RSS and its friends into a known Western category, thereby refusing to deal with it seriously. > >The argument that 21% of the vote commands respect is no more valid in > >India than it > >was in pre-Nazi Germany. > > Nor in Newt Gingrich's America! Whose Contract on America? Whose > Hindutva? It's not MY agenda, but we still have to look at it squarely. Again, I agree with Ms. Rosser. India was partitioned on the basis of a similar percentage who wanted it. Present day electoral reality in India makes 21% a rather large number indeed. It can make or break a coalition, in the event of a hung parliament (which is the most likely outcome in the next elections). Parties like the Telugu Desam and the AIADMK command less than this percentage and make their voices heard in parliament. S. Vidyasankar From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu Sun Dec 3 08:36:12 1995 From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 02:36:12 -0600 Subject: References to color blindness Message-ID: <161227021922.23782.16231490135633235942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "yellow eye" is also sometimes called "jaundiced eye" and refers to an eye disease in which everything seems to be yellow, apparently a well-known symptom in India, since it appears frequently in philosophical writings... The Vedaantins probably borrowed it from the Buddhists, who seem to have used those examples first (e.g., Vasubandhu, Dignaaga, etc.). In fact, the idea of adhyaasa (superimposition) seems to have been borrowed by Vedaantins from the Buddhists, who used it to explain vij~napti-maatra (what appears to be the case is a mental projection). Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From tart at iastate.edu Sun Dec 3 15:07:57 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 09:07:57 -0600 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021923.23782.15721606961881024779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the BJP has, as seems clear, developed its success through an strident exaserbation of communal differences that leads to the murderous and culturally disasterous results that we have seen, and if they do indeed back this up with an ideology that makes this explicit, it is clearly a communalist expression. Is it fascist? I suppose that depends upon whether or not it also includes the authoritarian state and state-capitalist economic nexus that is the other side of the fascist definition. Short of a clear definition, we are just calling it names. I think Ms Rosser is correct in saying we fail if that is all we are doing. It is not just laying a Western term or definition upon them any more than using the zero is applying Eastern mathematics. The concept applies or it does not. And the term has been used in IndiaUs political discourse as long as it has in the West. Gandhi, Ambedkar, etc. used the definition. I donUt know enough of their economic politics to say whether or not they qualify as fascist. IUd like to hear from those who do. In the mean time we can certainly go on calling them *communalist* and even *genocidal.* Gary Tartakov From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sun Dec 3 12:06:51 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 12:06:51 +0000 Subject: Medevial india Message-ID: <161227021925.23782.6179287757495777389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidya wrote : Regarding the recent discussion on Sitaram Goel and Koenrad Elst's books - Both books seem to me to be no more than propaganda material. While Goel may only have compiled the accounts of Muslim scribes, there is an underlying fundamentalist propaganda mentality in his book. ..... While I agree that there is no real discussion of Muslim fundamentalism in the subcontinent, I doubt this list is an appropriate place to do it. It is difficult for people whose academic interests lie in dharmakIrtI or sadASiva brahmendra to be enthusiastic about discussing the perils of fundamentalism. That does not mean that Hindu fundamentalism should not be discussed, just because Muslim fundamentalism is not. ----------------------- In general in a debate, the basic rule goes, speak for yourself. The term Indology encompasses the study of classical, medevial and modern India. Discussions in these areas have pretty much been the norm on this astute and genteel group. Indian culture consists of more than the Sanskritic element, and if only Hindu fundamentalism is to be discussed, then by default it is the cause of all what ails the sub- continent. If the phenomena of fundamentalism is to examined, the analysis can only be complete if all components are examined. This is a very elementary demand of good scholarship. ------- Vidya wrote : One does not have to rake up medieval history to find the psychological roots of religious fundamentalism in India. Partition took place just fifty years ago. It is easy to pretend that India is "secular" while Pakistan is not. Secularism as an ideal has always been something that was imposed from up above, rather than something that came from within. Our fifty years of existence as indepedent India are more responsible for today's expressions of fundamentalism than the wrongs of a few centuris ago. ------------------------ It is impossible to analyse happenings on the sub-continent outside of a historical framework. The basic underlying dynamics of the Hindu-Muslim conflict still drive the polity of the sub-continent and there are deep historical roots to the phenomenon. A discussion of all aspects of horrible and continuing conflict seems to me to be the only way to begin to illuminate a way to possible solutions. One sided discussions end up having no more than propaganda value themselves. Regards, J.B. Sharma From tilak at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Dec 3 19:58:44 1995 From: tilak at alcor.concordia.ca (SHRINIVAS TILAK) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 14:58:44 -0500 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227021927.23782.13974686957139060908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for a text of the judgment delivered by Mr Justice Kuldip Singh and Mr Justice Hasaria concerning the provision of Sanskrit as option in October 1994. The writ petition was filed by Santosh Kumar and six others against the Central Board for Secondary Education. The judgement ordered the board to introduce Sanskrit as an option. Thanks From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Dec 4 01:58:56 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 95 17:58:56 -0800 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021928.23782.9077515209892744508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > If the BJP has, as seems clear, developed its success through an > strident exaserbation of communal differences that leads to the > murderous and culturally disasterous results that we have seen, and if The sad truth is that it is not just the BJP that is guilty of using communal differences for its electoral gains. *Every* political party in India, including the Congress has been doing it for a long time. It was Indira Gandhi who supported Bhindranwale in Punjab, to try to break up the Akali Dal. We all know how murderous and culturally disastrous the results were. > I donUt know enough of their economic politics to say whether or not > they qualify as fascist. IUd like to hear from those who do. As far as one can see, there is no static economic policy that the BJP espouses. For a long time, when the Congress was taking India in the socialist route, the BJP was for economic liberalization. They advocated a free market with investment of foreign capital. Now that PVN Rao has started the liberalization process, the BJP is using the word Swadeshi as a slogan. "We want computer chips, not potato chips" is a popular slogan nowadays. In other words, Sun Microsystems is welcome but KFC is not. Things may change again if the BJP comes into power. As pointed out earlier, most likely, political expediency will rule. S. Vidyasankar From voi at stallion.jsums.edu Mon Dec 4 14:21:18 1995 From: voi at stallion.jsums.edu (Voice of India) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:21:18 -0600 Subject: Message from Yvette Rosser about book by Elst Message-ID: <161227021938.23782.1963057855871532160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology-netters, I (a volunteer who tries to spread information about the Voice of India publishers) am given to understand that there has been much talk about the books on contemporary Indian history by Koenraad Elst (all published by the Voice of India). While some have spoken strongly against them, some have defended them, and some have been abiguous about them, certain basic facts seems to have been lost. For instance, Yvette Rosser wrote in a recent message (much of which I have deleted, without, I hope plucking the rest out of context) ----------------------- X-Comment: Indology mailing list Dec. 2 >From Yvette Rosser In response to >J.B. Sharma >Gainesville College: Some of the literature mentioned by Mr. Sharma warrants consideration but the books of Koenraad Elst are written in a hate mongering style and are not very professional. I read several of his books and though I was interested to know what he was saying, I detested the WAY that he said it. He is fostering and encouraging a nonforgiving communalism. His books are unfootnoted and read like propaganda. He would do the world a favor to cool down the rhetoric. (end of quote) I wish to point out that Koenraad Elst has written 5 books so far, and all have been published by VOI. While Miss Rosser claims she has read "several" of K.Elst's books, and that his "books" are unfootnoted, I know it for a fact that all the four books (except "Negationism in India" are very well-referenced and annotated. Even the book "Negationism" has a few footnotes, as Miss Rosser will doubtless discover if she would only open the book to pages 18, 25 and 29, to name just a few. However, I do agree that the references are inadequate, and refer only to other VOI books, which make even such a well-written book very incomplete and unsatisfactory. Since Miss Rosser has read "several" of Elst's books, I assume that she has at least one more of his 5 books at hand, or within easy access. May I request her to look up this book(s), open it a few (more than one) pages, and see if they are not adequately referenced? She may then want to apprise the learned members of the Indology net of her findings. In the light of Miss Rosser's research, Koenraad Elst's work also reads like propaganda. However, she does not care to explain why or how, nor to lay a finger on any piece of misinformation Elst may have supplied. This is all the more surprising, as Miss Rosser clearly understands that one person's propaganda is another person's history, for she goes on to say : (quoting Miss Rosser) The divergences between Hindu and Muslim imperative memories as to their civilizations' responses and responsibilities are diametrically opposed. Could not almost any reading of India's "Glorious Past" be construed as communalism depending on who was reading it? The history of Islam's arrival in India and the "Triumph of the Mogul Empire" is a proud and noble story to a Muslim but to many Hindus it is a story of rape and pillage. Conversely, the story of Hindu philosophic traditions and their powerful contribution to human thought and the "Triumph of Indic Civilization" could be an affront to a Muslim who sees Hinduism as an idolatrous and pagan challenge to the one true God and the Islamic invasions as wars of liberation. How does one teach "national civic culture" or even a basic history class in a country such as India, divided as she is by such sharp distinctions in perceptions of the past? (end of quote) A comment by J. Sharma, to the effect that no scholarly critique or refutation of the thesis by Elst has as yet appeared on this net, comes to mind. (There was a also a reference (in the same thread of messages) to a book by Sita Ram Goel "Hindu Temples: What happened to them". The message claimed that the books calls for the destruction of the mosques allegedly built over them. This sort of message tells me that the VOI has been confused for the BJP, VHP and the RSS. I emphasize that the VOI consists of independent scholars, whose ideas may be useful to people from the Sangh Parivar. That does not mean that they are unscholarly. The Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam, for instance, profited politically from the work done by Western scholars in indology , without consulting the DMK.) Miss Rosser then goes on to discuss the Sangh Parivar. To an extent, the linking of the Sangh parivar with Elst's work (and all of VOI) seems inevitable, since Elst makes the provocative claim that history as taught in India has been doctored for political reasons. And one of the parties to the debate now raging in India is certainly the Sangh Parivar. So, just to give you an idea of the kind of books VOI has dealt with, I refer to some other books published by the VOI, which represent a fairly diverse spectrum of opinions (something that can hardly be called propaganda). These books challenge the Aryan Invasion Theory (including , the newer Intrusion theory). The book by Frawley looks at the Aryan problem from the standpoint that the Vedic literature are "spiritual". Any references to history or geography are secondary. Frawley has been influenced by the writings of Sri Aurobindo, who claimed that the Vedas had a "psychological" interpretation and that attempting to explain the Vedas in terms of historical events is foredoomed to failure. Another VOI author, Shrikant Talageri, is opposed to this theory. He claims that the Vedas are certainly not as lofty as orthodox Hindus would like to believe. He claims that it is the liturgy of one single cult (the Puru cult, from the Punjab) which came to dominate all of India. His book would certainly offend Hindu orthodoxy, if the latter seriously examined it. In his book "Agastya to Ambedkar" (this one IS footnoted) , Elst (draws upon and) quotes the work of Talageri and Frawley approvingly (he calls them "interesting books") and also lists the work of a Marxist scholar Bhagwan Singh, whose books "Harappa Sabhyata Aur Vaidik Sahitya" he says are a worthwhile contribution to scholarship. This can hardly be called propaganda for the Sangh Parivar, which is opposed to Marxism in general, and is critical of Marxist scholarship in India, in particular. I will close my message by introducing the netters to a book by Dharampal (published by Biblia Impex, (later to become the Voice of India)) which deals with the destruction of the indigenous system of education in India by the British. The book is a good example of the message of the VOI -- that Indian scholarship, in India, rooted in Indian tradition, with a sound knowledge of Indian culture, should not only learn the work of Western (Christian, Marxist, and non-denominational) scholarship about India, but also should question the imposition of Western categories to the Indian context. The West has for long studied the East. The East must now study and comment upon the West in its own language. (One example is the Yoga-based commentary of monotheistic creeds, "Hindu View of Christianity and Islam" by Ram Swarup, VOI) (In what follows, "The beautiful tree" refers to the Indian education system, as the British found it on their arrival in India. All the material in brackets are my own. There is a message for all the people who have been trading "compliments" on the net. Hopefully Miss Rosser will not miss it. Thank You, Shreenivas Sharma, volunteering his mite for the Voice of India The Beautiful Tree (by Dharampal) (published by Biblia Impex) .... It is in this background that during his visit in 1931 to attend the British-sponsored conference on India (known as the Round Table Conference) Mahatma Gandhi was invited to address the Royal Institute of International Affairs, London. In this address Gandhiji also briefly dwelt on the causes of illiteracy in India and what he said seems to have made the sparks fly. .... (Page 55) ... (quoting Gandhiji) .. I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was a fifty or hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators, when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that and the beautiful tree perished ..... Collected Works, Vol 48, pp 199-200, 201-2 The challenge came immediately however from Sir Philip Hartog, a founder of the School of Oriental Studies, London, a former vice-chancellor of the University of dacca and member and chairman of several educational committees on India and set up by the British between 1918 and 1930. After questioning Gandhiji at the meeting itself, a long correspondence ensued between them during the next 5-6 weeks, ending in an hour long interview which Philip Hartog had with the Mahatma. (Some excerpts from their correspondence) (pp 357-358) ..... If you should find ultimately that the inference from your remarks that backwardness in literacy and education has been due to British administration in India was unjustified, I feel certain that you would wish to correct your statement. I am, Yours sincerely, Sd/ Philip Hartog .... You are quite right in feeling certain that if there were any error in my reasoning or the facts that I stated, I should immediately correct them, and whilst I should try to verify more fully the statements that I made, you will also oblige me by giving me such information as may be in your possession and as may help me to understand the truth. Yours sincerely, Sd/ M.K.Gandhi From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Dec 4 16:32:24 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:32:24 -0800 Subject: J.B. Sharma Message-ID: <161227021939.23782.7615477919229111839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > of them?I never heard of an election down there in the Asian Region which > is held as a real democratic one. > Ulrich Now, we can really do without this. How do you know what you claim to know? What are your criteria for unilaterally deciding whether an election in the "Asian region" is a real democratic one or not? Please get your facts right before you talk. S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Dec 4 17:20:59 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:20:59 -0800 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021941.23782.12955025811223190274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > allow writing this in this list - kind of guy is Ms.Rosser?This sounds to > me as if one fascist party got the votes of heaps of silly,brainless > people,they are not longer to be banned but rewarded for being fascists. So all the Germans were heaps of silly, brainless people between 1920 and 1945 and then all of a sudden became really brainy, huh? Pardon me, couldn't resist that. This discussion is quickly becoming a slanging match. For one thing, we don't need your superior and condescending attitude. We poor Indians from the Asian region may be silly and brainless, but we haven't been so dumb as to give absolute power to Nazis. We are inherently more democratic than we are given credit for. S. Vidyasankar ps. My last contibution to this thread. My apologies to the other members. From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Mon Dec 4 10:27:12 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:27:12 -0100 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021930.23782.4197000182026841801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good morning, It's more than quite right what Dr.Tritsch wrote.But what - if one may allow writing this in this list - kind of guy is Ms.Rosser?This sounds to me as if one fascist party got the votes of heaps of silly,brainless people,they are not longer to be banned but rewarded for being fascists. NOT HAVING HAD ANY KIND OF FASCISM IN YOUR COUNTRY MISS ROSSER? In Germany we had enough of that and unfortunately we still have enough. Wake up Miss. Yours Ulrich From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Mon Dec 4 10:37:28 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:37:28 -0100 Subject: J.B. Sharma Message-ID: <161227021931.23782.15602714414607990380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Grretings for all of you, Is it really Fundamentalism which is called so or shouldn't it get another name for? And isn't it slavery what is practiced in India when forcing children to work for nothing? Don't ask for what Christian Democratics have done after the Second World War Mr.Sharma. And what makes you telling us that you are not interested in what Party is to win,even if it is a fascistic one,only if there is a democratic election of them?I never heard of an election down there in the Asian Region which is held as a real democratic one. Ulrich From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Mon Dec 4 10:44:55 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:44:55 -0100 Subject: Gary M Tartakov Message-ID: <161227021933.23782.13015883110737673939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary, Isn't someone fullfilling all aspects of genocide a fashist?Even if this word was born here in Germany,if there isn't yet another word for it which can be used when talking about situations in other countries,there is no reason to call fascism communalism?I think if you do that you don't know what you are talking about. Ulrich From francois at sas.ac.uk Mon Dec 4 10:13:47 1995 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 10:13:47 +0000 Subject: Booksellers Message-ID: <161227021935.23782.16225433882091853406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My warmest thanks to list members who have kindly supplied me with addresses of booksellers in India and the West. Francois Quiviger From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Dec 4 14:29:34 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 15:29:34 +0100 Subject: Leave of absence Message-ID: <161227021936.23782.14680739761693137461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to notify all who might want to correspond with me that I shall be away from the network for one month as of this evening. I will be back on the 6th of January 1996. I wish everybody a merry X-mass and a happy new year! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From apandey at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 5 01:42:38 1995 From: apandey at u.washington.edu (Anshuman Pandey) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 17:42:38 -0800 Subject: Summer Programs in Sinhalese? Message-ID: <161227021943.23782.13207118507174164982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the South Asia Gopher did not contain any information regarding the subject, I shall ask it here: Do any universities or colleges in the United States - preferrably on the West Coast - give instruction in Elementary Sinhalese? Thanks. Anshuman Pandey Univ. of Washington Seattle, WA, USA From spb at ntrs.com Tue Dec 5 03:51:27 1995 From: spb at ntrs.com (Steve Bonine) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 22:51:27 -0500 Subject: RESULT: humanities.language.sanskrit passes 369:24 Message-ID: <161227021944.23782.2486176600144197459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RESULT unmoderated group humanities.language.sanskrit passes 369:24 There were 369 YES votes and 24 NO votes, for a total of 393 valid votes. There was 1 abstain and 16 invalid ballots. For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. Newsgroups line: humanities.language.sanskrit The Sanskrit language and related topics. Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 4 Dec 1995. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: Shrisha Rao Proponent: Henry Groover Mentor: Todd Michel McComb Votetaker: Steve Bonine RATIONALE: humanities.language.sanskrit Sanskrit is an Indo-European language of ancient origins, like Latin, ancient Greek, and Persian. Unlike many other ancient languages, however, it has had an unbroken tradition of both literary and everyday usage, lasting right up to the present day. A study of Sanskrit is very useful for those interested in understanding Hinduism; it is also important to those who study Paninian linguistics, Vedanta, Indology, the development of Indo-European languages and cultures, etc. Besides all these, of course, Sanskrit has a vast body of prose, poetry, drama, and music, of genuine literary worth, that is of much interest to many scholars and amateurs. There used to be a Sanskrit e-mail discussion group that generated a high enough volume of messages to cause it to be shut down because of the excessive load it was creating on its host system. The list had about 380 members who are potential readers of such a newsgroup; it may also be safely assumed that there are others who were not on the list, but would also like to see such a newsgroup come about. CHARTER: humanities.language.sanskrit The newsgroup humanities.language.sanskrit will be a forum devoted to the discussion of all matters pertaining to the formal or informal study of Sanskrit, both as a literary and scriptural language, and also as a language for common use. The newsgroup will not be solely for those already knowledgeable about Sanskrit, but will also give those interested in it an opportunity to learn by interaction. While there will be no restriction on the range of Sanskrit-related topics allowed, those that have nothing to do either with Sanskrit itself, or with issues in the study of Sanskrit, will be strongly discouraged. END CHARTER. humanities.language.sanskrit Final Vote Ack Voted Yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 100725.3222 at compuserve.com Clemens Stiglechner 100734.2313 at compuserve.com Hans-Georg Turstig 102054.1427 at compuserve.com Subbaiah Cherumandanda. 71125.20 at compuserve.com Miodrag Trajkovic 72750.3020 at compuserve.com Dan Kinnard 75240.2021 at compuserve.com Alain-Jean PARES 95PANDAY at tsunami.scar.utoronto.ca Aruna Panday A.Lahiri at sussex.ac.uk Amitabha Lahiri A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Anand Venkt Raman aas3 at Lehigh.EDU ARATI AMRITLAL SHAH-YUKICH abhay at gtenet.com Abhay Patil abhyankn at plk.af.mil Nandakish Abhyankar abirami at chemeng.iisc.ernet.in ABIRAMI SUNDARI acabral at ax.ibase.org.br Adilson Cabral ACHARB at msuvx2.memphis.edu B.N.Narahari Achar ACYS152 at chollian.dacom.co.kr choi young shin adjg at sour.sw.oz.au Andrew Gollan adonde at engineer.mrg.uswest.com Aruna Donde ae446 at freenet.carleton.ca Nigel Allen ag414 at freenet.carleton.ca Colin R. Leech agger at daimi.aau.dk Carsten Kalles| Agger aghoshal at eng2.uconn.edu Anindya Ghoshal ahudli at iupucs.iupui.edu Anand Hudli ajit at everest.tandem.com Ajit Dongre akkaraju at corp.cirrus.com Srinivas Akkaraju aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Ashok Aklujkar akr at acsu.Buffalo.edu Ajit K Ranganathan akris at loc201.tandem.com krishnamurthy_a akroev at oslonett.no Arne Knut Roev alderson at netcom.com Richard M. Alderson III amagdebu at nyx10.cs.du.edu Andy Magdeburg anandar at wipro.com Ananda Rajagopal ananthai at ecn.purdue.edu Satish Ananthaiyer andrew at golter.demon.co.uk Andrew Hoddinott anil at ichips.intel.com Anil M. Paranjape apandey at u.washington.edu Anshuman Pandey apn at cs.Buffalo.EDU Ajay P Nerurkar aq974 at lafn.org Bon Giovanni ARANI at delphi.com Ananth S. Rani arsha at epix.net Swami Tadatmananda artha at sci.fi Antti Kivivalli arun at datacube.com Arun K Dalmia asangli at hawk.stratacom.com Aruna Sangli asaraogee at sei-it.com Anil Saraogee asdighe at midway.uchicago.edu Amol Dighe atin at ie.utoronto.ca Atin Kulkarni atul at yamuna.asd.sgi.com Atul Narkhede badari at cs.tamu.edu Badarinath Devalla badri at sofia.mae.cornell.edu Badrinarayanan Seshadri baindur at aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu Satyen Baindur bakshia at pictel.com Anupam Bakshi bala at falcon.tamucc.edu M.K. Balasubramanya balaji at nexus.yorku.ca Balaji baloglou at panix.com George Baloglou Barticus at worldnet.att.net Randall Bart benwbrum at owlnet.rice.edu Ben William Brumfield besch at berlin.snafu.de Bernd Schaefers BHARAT at ccvax.ucd.ie Bharat Bhushan bill.duke at nashville.com Bill Duke bjv at herbison.com B.J. Herbison bluhme at uia.ua.ac.be Hermann.Bluhme bmisra at husc.harvard.edu Bijoy Misra Bradley.C.Gaylord at att.com Brad C. Gaylord, bcg at drmail.dr.att.com brao at pollux.usc.edu Bapa Rao broman at databank.com Andrew Broman cardona at unagi.cis.upenn.edu George Cardona careya at PEAK.ORG Andrew Carey carlton at math.mit.edu david carlton chande at Glue.umd.edu Vinay Chande chandrak at umdnj.edu Arun Chandrakantan chasm at ICSI.Net Charles L Hamilton chetan at informix.com Chetan Pandya clay at m-net.arbornet.org James H.Cuddeback cohen at walrus.com Jeffrey David Cohen conner at indy.net Nancy Conner crkreddy at tessa.iaf.uiowa.edu Ramakrishna R. Chada csr at jupiter.wipro.com C.S.Raghavendra cvtr at ukc.ac.uk Charlotte Richards dakshs2 at rpi.edu Srikanteswara Dakshina Murthy dambuel at s850.mwc.edu David Ambuel dcell at cftnet.com Dave Cell dchakrav at netserv.unmc.edu Dhruba Chakravarti deepa at nstl.com Deepa Kulkarni deepa at tiac.net Deepa Ganesan deshmukh at isip.msstate.edu Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon dgibson at husc.harvard.edu Diana Alexandra Gibson dhartung at mcs.com Daniel Hartung dileep at fireant.ma.utexas.edu Dileep Karanth dim at nevanest.spb.su Dimka Shpaer dit2 at Lehigh.EDU DILEK TUZUN donkiely at bravo.imagi.net Don Kiely dran at cs.albany.edu Paliath Narendran dschen at cs.Buffalo.EDU Daniel S Chen dshiel at unf6.cis.unf.edu David Shields dwaite at aladdin.co.uk Dennis Waite dyates at panix.com Don Yates EDFLOYD at vms.cis.pitt.edu Edwin D. Floyd elwells at sas.upenn.edu Scott Elwell esmae at adacel.com.au Esmae Emerson Espen.Ore at hd.uib.no Espen Ore fcp at Traveller.COM Dharman Craig Presson flan at io.org Saira Chhibber francois.voegeli at orient.unil.ch Francois Voegeli francois at sas.ac.uk Francois Quiviger fskumud at icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov Kumud Ajmani garyt at hpdmlfn.boi.hp.com Gary Thomas geert at aie.nl Geert-Jan van Opdorp Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Gerard Huet Gerard.Thia-Kime at irisa.fr Gerard Thia-Kime ghatsb at ttown.apci.com Shashi gkb at ast.cam.ac.uk Girish Beeharry gkurup at eng.mc.xerox.com Govinda D. Kurup gmadras at engr.ucdavis.edu Giri gnh at hal.com Gajanana Hegde gnosis at brahman.nullnet.fi Gnosis gopal at uic.edu Srihari Gopal gpenn+ at andrew.cmu.edu Gerald Penn gpoggema at slonet.org George Poggemann gt7060b at prism.gatech.edu Neeraj Dilipkumar Desai gupt9463 at uidaho.edu Atul Gupta gupta at mrspock.mt.att.com Arun Gupta HaroldA at eworld.com Harold F. Arnold harshan9 at mail.microserve.net Harshan Eppurath harsha_sathyamurthy at mentorg.com Harsha Sathyamurthy hchhaya at ece.iit.edu Harshal S. Chhaya hermit at cats.ucsc.edu William R Ward HGroover at qualitas.com Henry Groover HindSind at aol.com d.dudani hlu at u.Arizona.EDU Hung J Lu HOWARD549 at delphi.com Tom Howard hpraghu at genius.tisl.soft.net H.P.Raghunandan hvyas at murli.jpl.nasa.gov Hemali Nikhil Vyas hw41652 at is1.bfu.vub.ac.be Van Deun Dirk ian at oz.net Ian Gray Indu_Mudigonda/OriginNA.ORIGINNA at wing.otb.com Indu Shekhar Mudigonda J.Napier at unsw.edu.au John Napier jagan at corp.cirrus.com Jagannadha Chetlapalli jalura at COLBY.EDU Jessica A. Lura jam7 at Lehigh.EDU JAYAN MOORKANAT jan at bagend.atl.ga.us Jan Isley jap at euclid.cfdrc.com Jayesh Patel jay at mainelink.net Jay Jordan jbart at zadall.com John Bartol jchokey at leland.Stanford.EDU James Alexander Chokey jdwhite at unccvm.uncc.edu J. Daniel White jford at runet.edu John M Ford jherl at uiuc.edu Joseph Herl jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Jean-Luc Chevillard jm at imagine.pt Jose' Moreira - Portugal jonboy at io.org Trevor Tymchuk joseph at cis.ohio-state.edu Sudish Joseph jpunnakkal at houston.geoquest.slb.com Jagadeesh D. Punnakkal kalie at oslonett.no Kaare Albert Lie kartha at src.honeywell.com Kartha karthik at india.ti.com Karthikeyan Madathil kashyap at om.cs.uga.edu Vipul Kashyap keb at u.washington.edu Kathleen Bennett keutzer at Synopsys.COM Kurt Keutzer khare at rintintin.Colorado.EDU Vivek Khare kishan_padumane at smtplink.NGC.COM Padumane K Kishan kravi at cs.ucsb.edu Ravikanth V Kothuri kripa at cedar.buffalo.edu Kripa Sundar krisna at cs.wisc.edu Krishna Kunchithapadam kshapiro at pobox.com Kivi Shapiro ksn2 at Lehigh.EDU Kedar Naphade kumthek at bird.Colorado.EDU Balakrishna Kumthekar kvemala at stratacom.com Badri Kumar Vemala KVIRTANE at dodo.jyu.fi K. Virtanen kwhemr at inch.com Kurt Wm. Hemr kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu Krishna Padmasola ldd at step.polymtl.ca Louis-D. Dubeau Leif.Bergstrom at abc.se Leif Bergstrom lfirrantello at BIX.com Mick Brown list-votes at dream.hb.north.de Martin Schr"oder lpad at chevron.com L. Padmanabhan madhv-s at cedar.buffalo.edu SriG magier at columbia.edu David Magier mahadev at pyramid.com Mahadeva Mardithaya mahoa at acs.bu.edu Anne Mahoney mail07464 at pop.net B. Reusch makag at microsoft.com Makarand Gadre malaiya at cs.colostate.edu Y. Malaiya malli at wipro.wipsys.soft.net Mallikarjuna Rao mandar at everest.radiology.uiowa.edu Mandar Pattekar mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Mani Varadarajan manju at chemeng.iisc.ernet.in MANJUNATH SUBBANNA mantripragada_sai at amat.com Sai Mantripragada march at hookup.net Paul March mas151 at mail.usask.ca Maneesh Saini mccomb at best.com Todd Michel McComb mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu Shailendr Raj Mehta Melissa.Bartlett at Bentley.COM Melissa Bartlett menna at iam.unibe.ch Marco Menna merchant at anuxv.att.com s.merchant mfx at cs.tu-berlin.de Markus Freericks mharriso at indyunix.iupui.edu Michelle Harrison mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk L.S. Cousins mhegde at stratacom.com Madhavi Hegde mim8 at Lehigh.EDU Milan Medikeri-Naphade mistryg at nexxus.sps.mot.com G. Mistry mitra at aecom.yu.edu Joydeep Mitra mk0e at Lehigh.EDU Maheendra Kasmalkar mmdesh at umich.edu Madhav Deshpande mokashi at octopus.parcom.ernet.in Krishna V Mokashi mpt at mail.utexas.edu michael tandy mrachakonda at sbnsw.com.au Mallikarjuna Rao Rachakonda mtandon at hw.stratus.com Manish Tandon mthayer at ix.netcom.com Michael Thayer muysers at cginn.cgs.fr Dirk Muysers mwdaniel at uiuc.edu Michael W. Daniels nilesh at iastate.edu Nilesh Savargaonkar nmbrown at indyunix.iupui.edu Nicole Brown noack at rain.org William R. Noack NTIWARI at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Nachiketa Tiwari Ollivier.Robert at hsc.fr.net Ollivier Robert ota at cs.titech.ac.jp OTA Takeaki p-lakhia at students.uiuc.edu Lakhia Purna K P.J.Narayanan at IUS4.IUS.CS.CMU.EDU P. J. Narayanan padma at euch3g.chem.emory.edu D. A. Padmavathi pannappa at ecn.purdue.edu Usharani N Pannappalli pappuvs at hssc.slg.eds.com Vineet S. Pappu paranjap at cae.wisc.edu Amit Prabhas Paranjape pat at viminal.me.psu.edu Ravindra Patankar paustin at astro.ocis.temple.edu Pam Austin pcr at ic.net phil reed Per.Mathisen at pr.uninett.no Per Mathisen Peter at pwyz.rhein.de Peter Wyzlic ph at anweald.exnet.co.uk Patrick Herring phoffman at proper.com Paul Hoffman piyush at dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu piyush r bhagat pkohli at cc.gatech.edu Prince Kohli pmagnone at mi.unicatt.it Paolo Magnone potty at me.udel.edu Kesavan Potty powers at nt.com Mike Powers powerssh at ucsu.colorado.edu Stephen Powers PPalni at micom.com Pranay Singh Palni ppatel at lynx.dac.neu.edu Parimal Patel pradeep at hal.com Pradeep Saraswat prao1 at ford.com Prashant Rao praveen at praveen.is.ge.com Praveen Bhardwaj psargent at clark.net Peter L. Sargent psista at ecn.purdue.edu Prasad S Sista pujar at che.udel.edu Narahari Pujar pushkar at mechatro2.ME.Berkeley.EDU Hingwe Pushkar r0m6887 at tam2000.tamu.edu Ravisankar S. Mayavaram raghu at baynetworks.com Raghu Yadavalli raghu at exemplar.com Raghu Rao rajas at hpwaleu.wal.hp.com Raja Seth rakesh at owlnet.rice.edu Rakesh Kumar Agrawal ramabhad at ecn.purdue.edu Ramanujam Ramabhadran RAMACHANDRA.KAMATH at spcorp.com RAMACHANDRA KAMATH Ramarao.Chetlapalli at eng.sun.com RamaRao Chetlapalli ramesh at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Ramesh Chaudhari raoul at cssc-syd.tansu.com.au Raoul Golan ras7 at Lehigh.EDU RAVISHANKAR SHANKAR ravi at hpesravi.fc.hp.com Ravi Koshy ravih at falcon.cc.ukans.edu Ravi Hirekatur RaviS at bangate.compaq.com Ravi Subbarao rbalasub at ecn.purdue.edu Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian reddyc at chert.CS.ORST.EDU Chandra Reddy redmonds at acf2.NYU.EDU Sean Redmond rick at bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller rim4 at Lehigh.EDU RITU MALHOTRA rlleben at indyunix.iupui.edu Richard Leben rmohana at San-Jose.ate.slb.com Mohana k. Ramanujam robin at physics.rutgers.edu Rabindranath Chatterjee rosewood at netcom.com Shankar P. Khadye rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Miroslav Rozehnal rpidapa at advtech.uswest.com Ramakrishna Pidaparti. rsata at ctp.com Ranga Satagopan rufinus at mbe.ece.wisc.edu J. Rufinus rwebster at pixi.com Radhe Webster s.judd at waikato.ac.nz Stephen Judd sai at cybercomm.net Seshadri Narasimhan sai at schirf.cs.utah.edu Sai Rama Krishna Susarla samant at cs.uchicago.edu Tushar Samant sameer at cc.gatech.edu Sameer Mahajan sasbmt at unx.sas.com Bruce Tindall sathya at sybase.com Sathyanarayana C R Satyakaama at aol.com Derick Miller sdeodha at gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu Satish Y. Deodhar sdevaraj at csc.com Savithri Devaraj seacol at MIT.EDU cynthia col seemc000 at goofy.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de C. Seemann senggiap at singnet.com.sg Ho Seng Giap setlur at cedar.buffalo.edu Srirangaraj Setlur sgk at creighton.edu Susan Koshy shailesh at cair.ernet.in S.R.Chansarkar shashi at kbsdec2.tamu.edu Shashikanth Hosur ShekharX_Tembhekar at ccm.jf.intel.com ShekharX Tembhekar shrao at nyx10.cs.du.edu Shrisha Rao silanty at dux.ru Silanty Krestovozdvizhensky simon at cc.helsinki.fi Julia A M Simon singh-rv at cis.ohio-state.edu raj vardhan singh sint at oeaw.ac.at Peter Paul Sint sisi at m-net.arbornet.org Raju Madhavan sista at ecn.purdue.edu Srinivas Sista sitaram at watson.ibm.com Dinkar Sitaram siva at csgrad.cs.vt.edu Siva P. Challa sjoland at ix.netcom.com Peter/Stephen Sjolander sjoshi1 at gl.umbc.edu Sanjay Joshi sk at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Sara Kalvala skalkunte at shiva.com Suresh Kalkunte/Shiva Corporation skgupta at amsterdam.lcs.mit.edu Sandeep K. Gupta skjain at server.uwindsor.ca S Jain SNARA at research.gsb.columbia.edu Sunder Narayanan snizybor at hpcnq30.cup.hp.com Steve Nizyborski snk at microsim.com Shankar soni at Papin.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE Dr Jayandra Soni srao at microcosm.com Srinivas Rao srengara at ford.com Sampath Rengarajan sridhara at sunflash.eng.usf.edu SRIDHARAN SURESH srirag at unm.edu Srikanth Raghavan ssane at emerald.tufts.edu Shirish Sane SSARKAR at us.oracle.com SSARKAR.US.ORACLE.COM ST931690 at PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU JOEL BRYANT sterrett at cts.com Tony Sterrett stiles at duke.usask.ca Lewis Stiles SueBreish at aol.com Susan J. Breish Sujai.Asur at ebay.sun.com Sujai Asur sujit at micb.mic.ki.se Sujit Dutt susarla.krishna at studentserver1.swmed.edu H. Krishna Susarla sven at maths.lth.se Sven Spanne SVKRISHNA at ptd.intel.com SV Krishna Prasad AL4-58 642-6475 svm at kozmix.ow.nl Sander van Malssen swagata at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Swagata Altekar sxs7502 at njit.edu Ram Prasadu tcahill at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Timothy C. Cahill thattey at baervan.nmt.edu anant thorinn at diku.dk Lars Henrik Mathiesen tmeadow at BearRiver.com Tony Meadow trika at ecn.purdue.edu Sanjeev N Trika tull at oes.amdahl.com Karthi Krishnaswami tulpule at cs.unc.edu Narendra Tulpule twpierce at midway.uchicago.edu Tim Pierce U28735 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU Rajesh Verma umesh at infosoft.com Umesh Hiriyannaiah upas at research.canon.oz.au Upasana us003785 at interramp.com Adolf von Wurttemberg uu001d at uhura.cc.rochester.edu Urmen Upadhyay uwe at niif.spb.su Valeriy E. Ushakov valishye at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Rakesh R. Vallishayee venka-k at acsu.Buffalo.edu Karthik Venkataraman venkates at colos.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Venkatesh Gopinath venkatp at Synopsys.COM Venkat Puntambekar vidya at cco.caltech.edu Vidyasankar Sundaresan vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Vidhyanath K Rao vijaypai at ece.rice.edu Vijay Pai vinay at coe.wvu.edu Mogulothu Vinay Krishna vinnie at Tudor.Com Vinny Gade VIREN_JOGLEKAR at non-hp-sonoma-om1.om.hp.com Viren Joglekar vivek at owlnet.rice.edu Vivek Sadananda Pai vjoshi at spdmail.spd.dsccc.com Vikas Joshi vke at cypress.com Venkatesh Elayavalli/DCOM vmallam at wilkes1.wilkes.edu Vijay K Mallampati vmurthy at informix.com Venkatesha Murthy vraman at cas.org Venkat Raman vri at tiac.net Arun Malik watwe at cae.wisc.edu Ramchandra Watwe weikmann at bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at Martin Weikmann widenius at cc.helsinki.fi Risto Widenius WIKNER at NACDH4.NAC.AC.ZA Charles Wikner windeng at durras.anu.edu.au David A. Windsor wolfgang at lyxys.ka.sub.org Wolfgang Zenker xanthian at qualcomm.com Kent Paul Dolan xsvarshney at ccvax.fullerton.edu S. Varshney ye00 at Lehigh.EDU Yesim Erke ZLSIIAM at fs1.mcc.ac.uk Avi Misra zzzjan_m at sanjose.vlsi.com M S Janardhanan Voted No ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ anandk at hal.com Anand Krishnamoorthy benningf at aur.alcatel.com Robert F. Benningfield bholzm1 at icarus.cc.uic.edu Burt N Holzman cls48 at columbia.edu Christopher Lodge Stamper csaamw at urc.tue.nl Michiel Wijers dballard at ix.netcom.com Don Ballard dc at panix.com David W. Crawford dogcow at piglet.merit.net Tom 'moof' Spindler giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it Alex Passi jan.coekelberghs at ping.be Jan Coekelberghs kim at shell.portal.com Kim DeVaughn kmitchel at direct.ca Kevin Mitchell lancec at cats.ucsc.edu Lance K. Chun MarkMilem at aol.com Mark Milem nelsonk at ix.netcom.com Ken Nelson patl at lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti ryang at gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Glen Patrick Ryan shag at emanon.net Dan "Shag" Birchall smarry at turing.toronto.edu Smarasderagd stainles at bga.com Dwight Brown stick at shepherd.escalade.com J. Stick techint at winternet.com Technical Intelligence-MN-USA tgm at netcom.com Thomas G. McWilliams tlawson at email.univpubs.american.edu Todd C. Lawson Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ crouchkp at flidh103.delcoelect.com Kenneth P Crouch Votes in error ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 95SHARDA at tsunami.scar.utoronto.ca ! No name given abdutta at icaen.uiowa.edu ! No name given amarjit at lijgate.lij.edu ! No name given bhakta at ksc.net.th William G. Benedict ! No vote statement in message Bobbledun at aol.com ! No name given cvenkata at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Venkatasubramanian A Chitoor ! No vote statement in message Girija.Narlikar at GS138.SP.CS.CMU.EDU ! No name given Krishnamurthy.Raghunandan at att.com ! No vote statement in message KWEGMAN at vax1.miu.edu ! No name given moorthy at cs.rpi.edu ! No name given NATARAJ at UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Natarajan Sethuraman ! No vote statement in message P.Magnone at agora.stm.it ! No name given pgj at sparc.sandiegoca.attgis.com ! No name given rherwadk at us.oracle.com ! No name given sunidh at stat.njit.edu Sunil Kumar Dhar ! No vote statement in message Yobero at aol.com ! No name given From jwg2 at cornell.edu Tue Dec 5 04:51:07 1995 From: jwg2 at cornell.edu (jwg2 at cornell.edu) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 23:51:07 -0500 Subject: Summer Programs in Sinhalese? Message-ID: <161227021946.23782.8615602613476719572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As the South Asia Gopher did not contain any information regarding the >subject, I shall ask it here: Do any universities or colleges in the United >States - preferrably on the West Coast - give instruction in Elementary >Sinhalese? > >Thanks. > >Anshuman Pandey >Univ. of Washington >Seattle, WA, USA To Mr Pandey, and others interested: Indeed, Cornell does present a Sinhala (Sinhalese) Summer program in alternate years. the next session will be in summer 1996. For some reason, this did not get on the South Asian Gopher, which we will rectify, but material from the current announcement follows...James W. Gair SINHALA AT CORNELL---SUMMER 1996 Sinhala (Sinhalese) is the major official language of Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon), spoken as a first language by approximately 75% of the population. Although Sinhala is located to the Southeast of India, it is related to the languages of North India, such as Hindi, Bengali, and Panjabi, from which it has been separated for over two thousand years. It has a continuous epigraphical and literary record since the second or third century B.C., and is the vehicle for a number of important Buddhist texts. It is thus particularly interesting to the student of Buddhism and/or South Asia, to the linguist, or to any person who likes to encounter languages of different structures. Sinhala 160, an eight-week, ten credit intensive course in the language, will be offered in the Cornell University Summer Session from June 12 through August 7, l996 by the Department of Modern Languages and Linguistics and the South Asia Program. This year, the course will be under the direction of Professor J.W.Gair and staff and will cover the material generally included in the two-semester sequence, Sinhala 101-102, offered at Cornell during the regular academic year. It will thus provide an unusual opportunity to obtain a basic competence in the language in one summer. Emphasis will be on the spoken (colloquial) language, but the writing system will be introduced and after an initial period, all Sinhala materials will be in that script. There will also be additional reading practice with colloquial materials. Thus a foundation will be laid for later study of the written language (Literary Sinhala), which is sharply different from that used for virtually all oral communication. Students will spend four hours per day in class, and two further hours working with recorded materials, in addition to the time required for daily preparation. FINANCIAL AID: Two U.S. Department of Education Fellowships, covering tuition, fees, and a maintenance allowance, are available through the South Asia Program. These fellowships are open to U.S. citizens and permanent residents who are graduate students at Cornell or other institutions. In addition, some tuition waivers may be available for students (and possibly faculty members) with teaching or research interests in Sri Lanka. INFORMATION AND APPLICATIONS: Requests for additional information about the program and application materials should be directed to: Summer Sinhala, South Asia Program, 170 Uris Hall Cornell University, Ithaca, New York l4853-7601 Tel: (607) 255 8493 The Intensive Sinhala Language Study Program is sponsored in part by the Cornell-Syracuse National Resource Center for South Asia Studies with financial support from the U.S. Department of Education and Cornell University. From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Tue Dec 5 06:08:07 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 00:08:07 -0600 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021949.23782.12996893380420605661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize that the following message is a bit long and that this may not be the proper forum, but, I would like to respond to a few comments: The point of my interest continues to be the discussion of civilizational relativity and the discursive use of various theories of cultural discourse as well as our ubiquitous dependence on our occi-specific terminology in the treatment of the development of Hindu Nationalism and the "Sangh Parivar." I, like S. Vidyasanka, was also offended by Mr. Ulrich's inference that somehow the people in the "Asian region" vast and varied as that broad term is, are somehow incapable of responsible government or democratic institutions because they are ">heaps of silly, brainless people" Ulrich also states: >they are not longer to be banned but rewarded for being fascists. Banning this increasingly popular, albeit far right-wing political party (a qualified classification of a Cold War derived paradigm) will not make them go away and indeed may give strength to the more radical elements. Who, BTW, would ban the main opposition party? The Congress (I)? That would certainly be a silly sort of democracy! In his response to my comments, Mr. Ulrich said "what kind of guy is Ms.Rosser?" and then asks, "NOT HAVING HAD ANY KIND OF FASCISM IN YOUR COUNTRY MISS ROSSER?" It may be the language barrier that causes Mr. Ulrich to refer to a "guy" as "Ms." but, it is a cultural error to refer to an American woman, who at least has the know how to turn on her computer and down load and send email and whom you know absolutely nothing about, as "Miss." This is a bit too diminutive, and should be avoided unless you are intending to offend. "Ms." is a far more appropriate term. For all Ulrich knows, I could be a happily married 65 year old grandmother. Insult intended or not, this is a good example of why we have to look carefully at words and ideas and intensions as they transmit across cultures. I seem to have raised the ire of the Voice of India representative. He is right, other of Elst's books are footnoted. My point was that the information in the book, "Negationism in India" is so hatefully delivered that it is lost in the propagandist and mean spirited tone. Since the VOI has requested that I do so, I will cite some examples. One need not to look too far into the book to see a viciousness that is neither good scholarship nor good for long term political goals. >From page 96 of "Negationism in India": "One could understand people telling lies when it serves their own interest; but people who tell lies when it is the truth that would serve their interest, really deserve to be kicked around. This truly strange and masochistic behavior can only be understood if we keep in mind that Hindu society is a terrorized society. During the Muslim period, all those who stood up and spoke out against Islam were eliminated; and under Nehruvian rule, they were sidelines and abused. The oppressed Hindus started licking the boot that kicked them, and this has become a habit which in their slumber they have not yet identified and stopped." The above paragraph could only make the Hindu reader angry or ashamed, hate himself or someone else. I think an honest look at history such as Mr. Sharma originally suggested is of great value, but this sort of BS from Mr. Elst (pg. 97- Negationism) is not: "Many people have a Muslim neighbor who is a fine man, and from this empirical fact they conclude: Islam cannot be all bad, considering our friend Mustapha. This one empirical fact gives them a tremendous resistance against all information about Islamic intolerance. People usually reduce the world to their own sphere of experience, and general historical facts of Islamic fanaticism are not allowed to disturb the private experience of good neighborly relations." This is disgusting hateful rhetoric that denies the power of the individual. In fact from the above quotes, it would seem that Mr. Elst is as guilty as is Mr. Ulrich of looking down on Indians as silly, brainless people and denying them agency, even in their own neighborhoods. I have been conducting on-line interviews with NRI's who are supportive of one or more of the Sangh groups, such as the RSS or the BJP. I have asked some tough questions about this movement and have corresponded with over two dozen NRI's as well as conducted numerous phone and personal interviews. These people are not hate-mongering "brainless" people. They have thought a lot about the issues, and I often personally disagree with their ideas, but never has one of them stated their case with the meanness as does Mr. Elst. That is not to say that there isn't hate mongering among the BJP pracharaks. The speeches of Uma Bharati, the MP from Madhya Pradesh are, as a friend wrote to me "a particularly flagrant example, full of images of "blood" and raped motherland, and 'redeeming our manhood' through violent revenge for past wrongs, etc." The same friend also reminded me that, "The BJP/VHP etc. is not monolithic and contains many sentiments, just as the American right does--everything from Dole to skinhead neo-Nazis in Idaho." So, Mr. Ulrich, I quess we do have "some kind of fascism in (my) country". In fact, being from the South, the Ku Klux Klan is more than just scary ghost like monsters in old movies, they occasionally have rallies and parades right down town. Under police protection, no less! (Maybe we should just ban THEM. They are certainly partakers in the Elst style discourse.) The point is, ideas are not and should not be a crime. Criticized and deconstructed, perhaps but banned? I suppose there is an unspoken academic fatwa against discussing the BJP without depending on the fascist analogy. The following comment was sent to me and, though a bit hard to swallow, it is earnest and worth reading: "I don't understand something though. I guess even if a white male is a serious researcher into things India, deep down under, there is a feeling of superiority and condescension when dealing with Indians." Mr. Ulrich does justice to the above statement as does Mr. Elst. Following Mr. Vidyasankar's promise to make this his "last contribution to this thread" and with apologies to the other members, please excuse any impropriety. If we shadows have offended. Think but this and all is mended: That you have but slumbered here while all these visions did appear. Yvette C. Rosser ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT." * Justice Learned Hand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Dec 5 07:21:24 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Dr. M.F. Tritsch) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 08:21:24 +0100 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021950.23782.16252355587439238345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ok, this is not the place to discuss fascism, but a few words in response to criticism and questions seem in order: Why call anybody fascist? Either because you want to insult them (unwise in the west, downright foolish in India), or because you want a word to describe their ideas. Let's stick to the second. I think "fascism" describes a set of overlapping and sometimes contradictory beliefs that first became fashionable in continental Europe in the 1920s: 1) A return to the ancient traditions of the race 2) Militaristic, corporativistic social organisation 3) Leadership cult 4) National self-reliance 5) Respect for labor - full employment 6) Aggressively nationalistic foreign policy Although it's the combination of all these that makes for trouble, the first three seem to be the most important. A political organisation that scores 5/6 or 6/6 on the list probably is fascist, 4/6 is a borderline case, less (unless it's the first three) is just right-wing, authoritarian, police-state, etc. Number 5 is just commonsense - Hitler built the Autobahnen. Communists replace race with class - Pol Pot and the Red Khmer is the worst case, Castro is benign in comparison (like Franco was, as fascists go). The RSS in India? Perhaps 5/6 (Hindutva, military organizational approach, Swadeshi, uncompromising on Kashmir, but no leadership cult). The same goes for Bal Thackeray and Shiv Sena. Other things that are associated with fascism in its name-calling version (police brutality, gas chambers) are either not specifics of fascism or else were specifics of the horrifically perfectionist German Nazis. Exploitation of communal differences is not the exclusive preserve of fascists, or in India of the Hindutva brigade, though only they have made it a central plank of their policy - its also not specifically fascist (Mussolini didn't use it). What makes the RSS and maybe some other organizations in India fascist is the COMBINATION of all these things into a brew, which, going by European historical precedent, justifies the use of the term. The BJP is certainly a different matter, and may suffer the "civilizing" influence of Indian political culture, if recent events in Gujarat are anything to go by. Nevertheless, the RSS are the stormtroopers of the BJP, and could succeed in fully capturing policy making when it gains national power (probably next year). So far, the main characteristic of the BJP is its exploitation of whatever part of the Hindutva program that seemed to move the masses for the moment. The fact that Congress and other parties also have severe failings is not relevant to the discussion. To Yvette Rosser: it's all right for Ashrams and Godmen to create organizations based on inspiration and charisma (i.e. hierarchical) - but they are religious, not political. A political organization wishes to form the state in its own image. You don't HAVE to belong to a religion, but you do to a state. And don't put too much faith in the global village - look at Bosnia. To S Vidyasankar: I agree we have to discuss with people whose ideas we don't necessarily like, but I also think there is nothing wrong in "essentializing" - doesn't this mean extracting the essence from an argument? I can't see how this can dehumanize anyone. Maybe all this doesn't belong in a list run by Sanskrit scholars - but academics sometimes underestimate the power and influence of their ivory-tower thoughts. Hitler would have gotten nowhere but for the German professors who thought that Autobahnen were a good thing and said you mustn't take Mein Kampf seriously. They made bad ideas respectable. That's why I say: let's call a spade a spade - it doesn't stop us talking to the man holding the spade. Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Tue Dec 5 07:21:24 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Dr. M.F. Tritsch) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 08:21:24 +0100 Subject: slavery Message-ID: <161227021952.23782.507578159048324030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JB Sharma wrote on 2. Dec., in reply to some comments of mine: > There is no tradition of slavery among the Hindus and there were no > slave markets in pre-Islamic India. There are no elaborate > prescriptions for taking slaves, codes of behavior of master and > slave, fraction of booty to be sent to the Caliph etc. I don't want to be picky, but the Arthashastra of Kautilya devotes a whole section to the rights and duties of slaves. This can be found in Chapter 13 of Book 3. My translation (by R Shamasastri, 1951) says: "The ransom necessary for a slave to regain his freedom is equal to what he has been sold for. (...) An Aarya made captive in war shall for his freedom pay a certain amount proportional to the dangerous work done at the time of his capture, or half the amount." Romila Thapar refers to this in her "History of India", and also says of the Mauryan period: "Domestic slaves were a regular feature in prosperous households, where the slaves were of low caste status but not outcastes. Slave labour was also used in the mines and by the guilds." Of the Chola period in the south she writes: "Slavery was frequent, with men and women either selling themselves or being sold by a third party. Many such persons were sold to the temple (...) The use of slave labour for large-scale production was not known." Anyway, what about the famous game of dice in the Mahabharata, where Yudhishthira cries: "If you win, I shall be your slave!" Interesting question. Anyone know other sources about slavery? Regards, Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Dec 5 11:18:03 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 11:18:03 +0000 Subject: slavery Message-ID: <161227021955.23782.14492654605024914979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JB Sharma wrote on 2. Dec., in reply to some comments of mine: > There is no tradition of slavery among the Hindus and there were no > slave markets in pre-Islamic India. There are no elaborate > prescriptions for taking slaves, codes of behavior of master and > slave, fraction of booty to be sent to the Caliph etc. I don't want to be picky, but the Arthashastra of Kautilya devotes a whole section to the rights and duties of slaves. This can be found in Chapter 13 of Book 3. My translation (by R Shamasastri, 1951) says: "The ransom necessary for a slave to regain his freedom is equal to what he has been sold for. (...) An Aarya made captive in war shall for his freedom pay a certain amount proportional to the dangerous work done at the time of his capture, or half the amount." Romila Thapar refers to this in her "History of India", and also says of the Mauryan period: "Domestic slaves were a regular feature in prosperous households, where the slaves were of low caste status but not outcastes. Slave labour was also used in the mines and by the guilds." Of the Chola period in the south she writes: "Slavery was frequent, with men and women either selling themselves or being sold by a third party. Many such persons were sold to the temple (...) The use of slave labour for large-scale production was not known." Anyway, what about the famous game of dice in the Mahabharata, where Yudhishthira cries: "If you win, I shall be your slave!" Interesting question. Anyone know other sources about slavery? -------------- Arthashaastra is a treatise in economic theory of the times; It does not entail religious prescriptions. In the core texts of Hindu Dharma you will not find institutionalized sanctions for enslaving people. The slavery that did exist was not due to scriptural injunction of its legitimacy; Significant portions of the Koran and the Hadith are devoted to this topic. There was also a mention of child labor in contemporary India. Once more this is not a religious institution, but one based on greed. It is no different from children working 16 hours aday in factories at the beginning of the industrial revolution. If there is someone more knowledgeable about slavery in pre-Islamic vs post- Islamic India, and economically ordained slavery vs divinely ordained slavery, could you illuminate the topic further ? J.B. Sharma From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Dec 5 11:21:31 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 11:21:31 +0000 Subject: Medevial india Message-ID: <161227021954.23782.6956591445482916851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J.B. Sharma said: > > To begin wih, I wish point out a couple of errors. The two volume > work by Sita Ram Goel is primarily a compilation of the works of the > muslim scribes who witnessed the era of the coming of Islam in India > and its subsequent control of the sub-continent for over eight > hundred years. A lot of these works are in libraries all over the > world. Nowhere in his book does he advocate the breaking of mosques. Yes he does, in fact. In the introduction and in the cover blurb which quotes from the introduction. Dominik Wujastyk From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Tue Dec 5 17:24:59 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 11:24:59 -0600 Subject: New URL address Message-ID: <161227021958.23782.3337284950974567839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Asian Studies Centre's web page has a new address. I hope those of you who have been kind enough to link with us will update your file. The new address is: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/asian_studies I sent this message last week, but just got a message saying that it had been damaged during transmission. If you received this before, please swiftly delete. Best, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Dec 5 12:03:58 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 12:03:58 +0000 Subject: Medevial india Message-ID: <161227021956.23782.11338009318416357140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J.B. Sharma said: > > To begin wih, I wish point out a couple of errors. The two volume > work by Sita Ram Goel is primarily a compilation of the works of the > muslim scribes who witnessed the era of the coming of Islam in India > and its subsequent control of the sub-continent for over eight > hundred years. A lot of these works are in libraries all over the > world. Nowhere in his book does he advocate the breaking of mosques. Yes he does, in fact. In the introduction and in the cover blurb which quotes from the introduction. Dominik Wujastyk ------------------------------ I looked thru the introduction in the cover blurb, and could not find an exhortation for breaking mosques. There is one sentence which refers to the movement of restoration of temples being bogged down due to the Ramjanmbhoomi-Babri-masjid issue. This movement is not the creation of Sita Ram Goel and has been around for a very long time. If such extrapolation of words renders the work invalid, the critique is very poor. In my mind, the contribution of Shri Goel is to simply present the happenings of the times as recorded by eyewitnesses. The extent of death and destruction that is described as befalling the idol worshipping infidels is staggering. These are things which are not discussed in Indian academia, and as I now see in western academia as well. Centuries of this iconaclastic activity has built up vast banks of resentment which remain pent up in in the subcontinent. My basic point is 'awareness is transcendence'. If a way can be found to discuss these happenings in a civil manner, it pre-empts the destructive power of suppressed history. Otherwise it can wreck a lot of havoc in the hands of demagouges. Competing histories breed and sustain the conflict. For the first time in the history of the planet can intellectuals all over the world have the means to carry on discussions in real time on these contentious issues. Judicious use of the medium has the potential of inmparting a healing impulse to a very sordid situation on the subcontinent. And last but not the least, it is thru this forum I have been introduced to the literature under discussion. In general free speech has been upheld here and calls for censorship resisted; This is to be credited to the energy of Dominik, philosophical differences notwithstanding. All the best, J.B. Sharma From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Dec 5 15:09:51 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 15:09:51 +0000 Subject: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227021960.23782.3516597086989560504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark Tritsch wrote : ...... Why call anybody fascist? Either because you want to insult them (unwise in the west, downright foolish in India), or because you want a word to describe their ideas. Let's stick to the second. I think "fascism" describes a set of overlapping and sometimes contradictory beliefs that first became fashionable in continental Europe in the 1920s: 1) A return to the ancient traditions of the race 2) Militaristic, corporativistic social organisation 3) Leadership cult 4) National self-reliance 5) Respect for labor - full employment 6) Aggressively nationalistic foreign policy Although it's the combination of all these that makes for trouble, the first three seem to be the most important. ..... ...... That's why I say: let's call a spade a spade - it doesn't stop us talking to the man holding the spade. Mark Tritsch ------------------ I think that your analysis has sincere intent and I agree on several points; But I dont buy the part of the argument to ensure that labels have to be affixed and code words loaded as a condition of the debate. This puts speaking about a particular issue synoymous with being a fascist. This pollutes the discussion at best. Secondly, the analogies derived by comparison to the recent European experience are not vaild as the conditions on the ground are quite different. No political party has been calling for return to ancient traditions of race; The continuity of ancient traditions of caste (not race) continue uninterrupted to order social life (wether that be good or bad) on the subcontinent. There is no exact equivalent of the word Dharma in English. There is no case of a sudden discovery of an ancestral past as in he case of 18th Century Europe, fuelled by the likes of Gobineau and company. There is no charismatic leader comparable to Hitler or Mussolini in India, and these folks are working thru the democartic process. I seriously doubt that the body politic will put up with a Bosnia type senario, no matter who is elected in India. However, you are correct in pointing out the cynical expolitation of the masses and xenophobia in the name of Hindutva. You are also correct about the power of the word of academics. They remain the lens thru which societies and cultures view each other. This assumes a new dimension with instant inforamtion sharing. My basic point, and none other, is that Hindu fundamentalism can only be understood in the context of Muslim fundamentalism in the region, and they both feed off of each other. All of this is rooted in the history of medevial India, a discussion of which always invokes namecalling in subtle and not so subtle ways. A scholarly consensous of the history of the times would be a first step in unlocking the tangled and competing premisis all kinds of movements in the sub-continent are based on. A commonly shared vison, no matter how sordid, also breathes hope for the future . I would be interested in a scholarly refutation (or references thereof) which would systematically demolish the compilation of Sita Ram Goel and Elst's subsequent thesis. The branding iron is quite unecessary ... Regards, J.B. Sharma From unknown at example.com Tue Dec 5 22:48:10 1995 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 16:48:10 -0600 Subject: Slavery in India (references) Message-ID: <161227021963.23782.2330641912980362978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 12/5/95 Here are few references on Indian slavery. n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov m ------------------------------------- - AUTHOR: m Patil, Sharad, 1925- - TITLE: m Dasa sudra slavery : studies in the origins of Indian slavery - m and feudalism and their philosophies / Sharad Patil. - PUBLISHED: m New Delhi : Allied, 1982. - DESCRIPTION: m viii, 344 p. : geneal. tables ; 23 cm. - NOTES: m Includes index. Bibliography: p. 329-335. - SUBJECTS: m Slavery--India - m Feudalism--India - AUTHOR: m Chanana, Dev Raj. - TITLE: m Slavery in ancient India, as depicted in Pali and Sanskrit - m texts. With a foreword by J. Filliozat. - PUBLISHED: m (New Delhi) People's Pub. House (1960) - DESCRIPTION: m xviii, 203 p. 23 cm. - NOTES: m Bibliography: p. (183)-193. - SUBJECTS: m Slavery in India. m - AUTHOR: m Manickam, Sundararaj. - TITLE: m Slavery in the Tamil country : a historical overview / S. - m Manickam. - PUBLISHED: m Madras : Christian Literature Society, 1982. - DESCRIPTION: m x, 122 p. ; 22 cm. - NOTES: m Appendix in English and Tamil. - - m Bibliography: p. 112-118. - SUBJECTS: m Slavery--India--Tamil Nadu--History. - TITLE: m Chains of servitude : bondage and slavery in India / edited by - m Utsa Patnaik, Manjari Dingwaney. - PUBLISHED: m Madras : Sangam Books ; Hyderabad, India : Distributed by - m Orient Longman, 1985. - DESCRIPTION: m 377 p. ; 23 cm. - NOTES: m Includes bibliographies and index. - SUBJECTS: m Slavery--India. - m Peonage--India. - m ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - AUTHOR: m Saradamoni, K., 1928- - TITLE: m - m Emergence of a slave caste : Pulayas of Kerala / by K. Saradamoni. - PUBLISHED: m New Delhi : People's Pub. House, 1980. - DESCRIPTION: m xiii, 259 p. ; 23 cm. - NOTES: m An updating of the author's thesis (Doctoral-Universite de Paris, 1971). m Bibliography: p. (255)-259. - SUBJECTS: m Untouchables - m Caste--India Slavery in India. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - AUTHOR: m Ramachandran Nair, Adoor K. K. - TITLE: m Slavery in Kerala / Adoor K.K. Ramachandran Nair. - PUBLISHED: m Delhi : Mittal Publications : Distributed by Mittal Publishers' Distributors, 1986. - DESCRIPTION: m x, 168 p. ; 22 cm. - NOTES: m - m Includes index. - m Appendices (p. (59)-161) include documents. - m Bibliography: p. (162)-166. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - AUTHOR: m Barclay, Alexander, 1785-1864. - TITLE: m A practical view of the present state of slavery in the West - m Indies. - PUBLISHED: m Miami, Fla., Mnemosyne Pub. Co., 1969. - DESCRIPTION: m xxxi, 490 p. 23 cm. - NOTES: m Reprint of the 1828 ed. - SUBJECTS: m Stephen, James, 1758-1832. The slavery of the British West - m India colonies. - m Slavery in the West Indies. From jonathan.silk at wmich.edu Wed Dec 6 04:17:35 1995 From: jonathan.silk at wmich.edu (jonathan.silk at wmich.edu) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 23:17:35 -0500 Subject: slavery Message-ID: <161227021966.23782.1765853331909416183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "A bibliography on Ancient Indian Slavery," Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 16/17 (1992): 277-85 (by J. Silk) From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Dec 5 21:05:56 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 95 10:05:56 +1300 Subject: slavery Message-ID: <161227021961.23782.13081686936413559223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark Tritsch wrote: >Interesting question. Anyone know other sources about slavery? I agree with Mark. Since I compiled the following source of information some years ago, I did find several references to the existence of slavery in India although every one of the four observers below seem to discount it. Thus it seems more appropriate to discuss the fact not whether there were slaves in Ancient India, but what their rights were and to what extent they were different from slaves elsewhere in the world. ...Of the several remarkable customs existing among the Indians, there is one prescribed by their ancient philosophers which one may regard as truly admirable: for the law ordains that no one among them shall, under any circumstances, be a slave, but that, enjoying freedom, they shall respect the equal right to it which all possess: for those, they thought, who have learned neither to domineer over nor cringe to others will attain the life best adapted for the vicissitudes of the lot. - Diodoros Siculos Bib.III.39 ...This same writer says that none of the Indians employ slaves. Onesikritos however says that the custom was peculiar to the people in the country of Mousikanos. He speaks of this as a right thing, and mentions with like approbation many other things to be found in this country, resulting from the excellent laws by which it is governed. - Strabo Book XV:I.54 There are no slaves in the Island of Taprobane [Sri Lanka]; the inhabitants do not prolong their slumbers till daybreak, nor sleep during the day; their buildings are only of a moderate height from the ground; the price of corn is never enhanced; they have no courts of law and no litigation. Hercules is the God they worship; their king is chosen by the people and must be an old man, of a gentle disposition and childless, and if after his election he should beget children, he is required to abdicate, lest the throne should become hereditary; thirty counsellors are provided for him by the people,and no one can be condemned to death except by the vote of the majority -- the person so condemned has, however, the right of appeal to the people, in which case a jury of seventy persons is appointed; if these should acquit the accused, the thirty counsellors lose all the respect they enjoyed, and are subjected to the uttermost disgrace. - Pliny, Nat.Hist. Book VI: c.22(24) The same writer tells us further this remarkable fact about India, that all the Indians are free, and not one of them is a slave. The Lakedemonians and the Indians are here so far in agreement. The Lakedemonians, however, hold the Helots as slaves, and these Helots do servile labour; but the Indians do not even use aliens as slaves, and much less a countryman of their own. - Arrian's Indika.i.10 - & -- Anand Venkt Raman Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h) Dept of Computer Science Fx: +64-6-350-5611 http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman -- The following record is a random selection from Indhist 1.0 To the philosopher alone is it permitted to be from any caste whatever, for no easy life is his, but the hardest of all. - Arrian's Indika.c.12 From athr at loc.gov Wed Dec 6 15:37:49 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 95 10:37:49 -0500 Subject: Speaking digitally (fwd) Message-ID: <161227021968.23782.1093967545541365714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology listers, I was having lunch with a friend in commercial scholarly publishing yesterday and he told me he was trying to get a grant for developing hypertext software for presenting texts with apparatus criticus and commentary on the Web. It seemed to me that this would be especially pertinent for Indian texts, where the 4th level of commentary down can be not only illuminative of the higher levels but an important 'original' (scare quotes) work in philosophy, theology, etc. He had no objection to my throwing the idea out for others to pursue as well. This morning I find an announcement on a listserve on Charles Sander Peirce about a text mounted with apparatus criticus, of Leibniz. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4774 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:07:40 -0600 From: NATHAN HOUSER To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Speaking digitally On the subject of digital texts, some of you might be interested in taking a look at what is purported to be the first-ever critical edition made for the Net. It's a short text by Leibniz that was edited and prepared for the Web in Trieste, Italy. The Web address is" http://www.znort.it/suiseth/drole/drole.html This is the sort of electronic edition we are aiming at for the Peirce texts. Dick Miller (U. of Missouri-Rolla) will be in Indianapolis next term to help us set up some procedures for electronic publishing. Actually we have been planning for an on-line edition for over two years but have not found funding for it. As you will see, if you look at the Leibniz text, the editing process for on-line critical texts is basically identical with the process for print editions, so what is really involved in putting a critical edition on-line is a new kind of publication operation. Previously we have depended on Indiana University press to produce our books after we completed the editing process. Now we have to find some way to support the parallel production of a Web product along the lines of the Leibniz Web edition--which will take money the federal government isn't likely to provide under the present Congress. Apparently our appeal will have to be to the private sector. Funding ideas will be gladly received. Nathan Houser Peirce Edition Project From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Wed Dec 6 02:10:45 1995 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 95 12:10:45 +1000 Subject: current thread on indian history Message-ID: <161227021964.23782.12667285760319163169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> as a musicologist rather than a historian, excuse me if my comments seem naive. However, a few things seem to be so frequently overlooked in discourse re Indian history that the clumsy forays of the "outsider" may be of some limited use. The invasions of India frf Mahmud of Ghazni through to Nadir Shah seem to be unusual in world historical discourse in being defined according to the religion of the invading party. Here in Australia, those that dare talk of invasion (and I'm from the invading party) talk of British or European invasion, not Christian invasion. The point I am making is that "Muslim" invasions: were not solely motivated by religious concerns: perhaps more so than (but who knows?) those of the Hunas and Alexander of Macedon or (I'm prepared to risk the wrath of the revisionists, the Aryans. Yes, I am aware of proselitizing, coerced or otherwise, yes I am aware of the destruction of temples etc, but it was booty and slaves that Timur promised his troops (and no doubt himself), not just saved souls also saw the slaughter of muslim opponents, in what might be called the approved manner of warfare at the time should perhaps be named according to the place of origin of the invading party: Afghani invasion, Turkic invasion etc: My thought is that monolithic categories are not only generally inaccurate, but disguise the variety and richness of historical experience (sorry to use such seemingly approving words of what is not a positive experience: invasion) The same might be said for the frequent equation, on the part of contribuors to this list, of Medieval India with "Hindu India As We Know It From The Sanskrit Sources". J.Napier at unsw.edu.au University of New South Wales Sydney, Australia PS. Can we cool this thread down a little> I do think, however its a very important one, and as much as contemporary politics is supposedly off limits, one which many here cannot really keep out of our work From thion at msh-paris.fr Wed Dec 6 13:11:39 1995 From: thion at msh-paris.fr (thion at msh-paris.fr) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 95 23:11:39 +1000 Subject: heavy footed Message-ID: <161227021969.23782.1072109862755353900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We were having an interesting discussion on Indian politics and there come a heavy footed freie Universitat obsessive mind. We do not need political categories evolved in Europe in the 20s to describe movements in India in the 80s. We should also remind the pretentious Ulrich that what he calls fascism was voted into power, in his country, by, in his own words, silly brainless people. The guy who pretends to give lessens believe the word fascist (he writes fashist) has been invented in Germany. Who said brainless? It is dangerous to call brainless people who do not think like you. It is more difficult to understand what they mean and that is precisely what we would like to do, without the stampede of the heavy footed ideologues. Thank you serge thion From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Wed Dec 6 22:14:19 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Dr. M.F. Tritsch) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 95 23:14:19 +0100 Subject: References to color blindness Message-ID: <161227021971.23782.2883861513226527332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you to all who corrected me on supposed color blindness. The confusion of white with yellow is indeed a case of xanthopsia. This symptom is sometimes found in jaundice, icterus, hepatitis and malaria and also as a result of digitalis overuse. It is referred to in medical texts, but there is practically no current literature on it (with the exception of a number of articles suggesting that Vincent van Gogh's paintings often had a yellow veil because he suffered from xanthopsia from using digitalis). Interesting that Buddhist students of philosophy used it as an example of faulty perception. It really is like a colored filter before the eye, resulting presumably from diffusion of the pigment (bilirubin from break down of blood cells or gall bladder malfunction) into the aqueous humor of the eyeball. The externally visible yellow coloration of the whites of the eyes has no effect on perception at all. Once again, thanks for the help. Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Thu Dec 7 14:27:22 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 08:27:22 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227021983.23782.15879771651348517716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree that this forum is not the place to debate the various components of fascism or how it plays out comparatively among German Nazis, Indian Hindutvadi(s), or US Republicans. Subcontinental politics are of great interest to most of us on this list, though the purpose of the Indology discussion group has a different focus. I would, however, like to raise a question about political correctness among my respected colleagues. The Internet, with its cloak of anonymity, offers the ideal forum for individuals to throw insults at each other via "slamming" and "flaming" that they would never lower themselves to when communicating face to face. On this medium we must be particularly careful to observe the rules of polite decorum while not hedging the issues. Ulrich Windisch wrote: >It was mainly not what I said, it was the way I did which made some of you >insulted and that is not the words I choosed but it is political >correctness I offended against. But, in fact, it was the opposite; it was the *words* you used and not your *message* that were perceived as offensive. As we know, the term "political correctness" arose in the early days of the US Communist Party which required its members to "tow the party" line and not refute or disagree with the center. The term has now been co-opted and reapplied with a pejorative application to refer to academics, who supposedly constrained by "political correctness," refrain from teaching the truth and calling the proverbial spade a spade. Hence, PC has come to mean a treatment of materials that is afraid to challenge the established paradigms and therefore is indeed something to be avoided. But, if "PC" means that we do not use insulting terms while making our points, such as not using the "N-word" or calling a woman "Little Lady," but that we generally abide by the rules of decorum and polite social intercourse, then it is not a hindrance to communication but an aide, for who will listen if they are insulted? It seems to me that all this anti-PC talk is just an excuse to throw rough language around and while refuting someone's ideas, also call their morality, maturity or other personality traits into question. As stated above, this sort of discourse is never productive and in fact negates the good points made by the perpetrator. It is my sincere hope that modern professionals will feel constrained to show respect to one another while discussing controversial topics on the Internet just as they would in a classroom or on a panel discussion. Basis rules of polite debate are certainly not PC! It is not PC that demands considerate address, it's just plain ole' traditional human kindness. I'm really sick of people using the PC card to defend their right to throw insults. A little tongue in cheek irony is always a cute device, challenging ideas with which you do not agree is always to be welcomed by all parties in an open discussion, but it is not a PC-ness that constrains us from derisive and rude comments when arguing points with our colleagues. It is just the basic rules of scholarly debate. Why allow the anonymity of Email to give us the opportunity to be less than human? PC has come to mean something negative that precludes accuracy but it is invoked as an excuse to use personal insults when making a point. Ulrich Windisch also wrote: >real discussion even if its getting a bit harsh only can take >place if political correctness is not something standing in the way. I guess that depends on how you use and define political correctness. If it a fear of dealing with the topic, then it is obviously a negative barrier, but if it is observing the rules of polite debate, then it is nothing more than the way that our mothers tried to raise us! Yvette C. Rosser ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "THE SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SPIRIT WHICH IS NOT TOO SURE IT IS ALWAYS RIGHT." * Justice Learned Hand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Thu Dec 7 10:48:54 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 09:48:54 -0100 Subject: Re of Re Message-ID: <161227021976.23782.3730318373723684171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, As this is not the forum to discuss what is meant by the word 'fascist' or 'fascism' let me say a few words at the end.Of course could one's oppinion be insulting or offending to someone else.But it should be normal to be able to say what the oppinion is and it should be also normal to discuss in a way which makes it possible to discuss as someone who knows of his own errors.And all members of a discussion should visualize in his own country what there takes place and could be mentioned in the discussion by part.It was mainly not what I said,it was the way I did which made some of you insulted and that is not the words I choosed but it is political correctness I offended against.But in my point of view a real discussion even if its getting a bit harsh only can take place if political correctness is not something standing in the way.And last but not least is it more insulting to talk to someone but without adressing him.That someone has done with me and I think that's somekind of kidding. To come to an end I would appreciate that if someone,whether it is man or woman should citate the whole of which he or she citates and not letting out words which changes the meaning of what was said. Yours sincerely Ulrich Windisch O tempora,o mores! From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu Dec 7 08:07:06 1995 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:07:06 +0200 Subject: Call for Articles on Indology Message-ID: <161227021974.23782.9542984215087592727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I am writing to request articles on any topic relating to Indology to be published in our two journals-- Nidaan -- publilshed by the Department of Hindu Studies and Indian Philosophy; and Journal of the Indological Society of Southern Africa -- published by the Indological Society of Southern Africa, Durban. We have our next annual conference in May 1996 and I will post details of it soon. These two journals are published every year in November/December. If any of you wish to send in your articles to be published in one of them, Pease send them to me in Hard copy first and then after it is refereed I will request you for a disk copy. We use Indic Times font on Mac for diacritics. Others using fonts on PCs are encouraged to send a hard copy with diacritics so as to enable us to use it as our master copy for verifications. Look forward to receiving great stuff. Cheers Pratap Kumar Department of Hindu Studies and Indian Philosophy University of Durban-Westville Private Bag X54001 Durban 4000 South Africa Tel 031-820-2194 Fax 031-820-2160 Email: Kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za From gheil at scn.org Thu Dec 7 18:30:48 1995 From: gheil at scn.org (Greg Heil) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:30:48 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit perfect Interlinqua Message-ID: <161227021990.23782.275893291917771009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few URL's that might be relevant to your search on the use of sanskrit for AI: http://ai.sunnyside.com/pub/nl-kr/V01/N010 - contains 1986 conference announcement, by Briggs http://ai.sunnyside.com/pub/nl-kr/V03/N007 - contains: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 87 14:33 EDT From: William J. Rapaport Subject: Sanskrit I don't know about the entire proceedings (I'll try to find out), but the paper by Srihari, Rapaport, and Kumar, ``On Knowledge Representation Using Semantic Networks and Sanskrit,'' Technical Report 87-03 (Buffalo: SUNY Buffalo Dept. of Computer Science, February 1987) is available by writing to Ms. Lynda Spahr, Dept. of Computer Science, SUNY Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260, USA, or sending email to spahr at buffalo.csnet or spahr at sunybcs.bitnet. http://ai.sunnyside.com/pub/nl-kr/V08/N054 - contains comments by William J. Rapaport on sanskrit representations http://alamut.lifesci.ucla.edu/repository/compsci/Faculty/Dyer/ mailto:dyer at cs.ucla.edu - Contacts of Michael Dyer http://www-csli.stanford.edu/csli/researchers.html - cites kiparsky as being on faculty: Paul Kiparsky, development of models of the lexicon for natural language: lexical phonology and morphology, linking theory -- Greg Heil work: BioStructure, U WA, 98195-7420/(206)616-1944/gheil at cs.washington.edu home: 781-1873/gheil at scn.org, http://www.scn.org/tl/anvil/ To: nl-kr at rochester.arpa From: NL-KR Moderator Brad Miller Date: Thu, 25 Sep 86 21:50 EDT Reply-To: nl-kr at ROCHESTER.ARPA Subject: NL-KR Digest Volume 1 No. 10 Organization: University of Rochester, Department of Computer Science Postal-Address: 617 Hylan Building, University of Rochester, Rochester NY 14627 Phone: 716-275-7747 NL-KR Digest (9/25/86 21:49:02) Volume 1 Number 10 Today's Topics: Call for papers. Conference on KR & Inference in Sanskrit Language and Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 86 17:08 EDT From: Glenn Veach Subject: Call for papers. CALL FOR PAPERS WORKSHOP ON LOGICAL SOLUTIONS TO THE FRAME PROBLEM The American Association for Artificial Intelligence (AAAI) is sponsoring this workshop in Lawrence, Kansas from March 23 to March 25,1987. The frame problem is one of the most fundamental problems in Artificial Intelligence and essentially is the problem of describing in a computationally reasonable manner what properties persist and what properties change as action are performed. The intrinsic problem lies in the fact that we cannot expect to be able to exhaustively list for every possible action (or combination of concurrent actions) and for every possible state of the world how that action (or concurrent actions) change the truth or falsity of each individual fact. We can only list the obvious results of the action and hope that our basic inferential system will be able to deduce the truth or falsity of the other less obvious facts. In recent years there have been a number of approaches to constructing new kinds of logical systems such as non-monotonic logics, default logics, circumscription logics, modal reflexive logics, and persistence logics which hopefully can be applied to solving the frame problem by allowing the missing facts to be deduced. This workshop will attempt to bring together the proponents of these various approaches. Papers on logics applicable to the problem of reasoning about such unintended consequences of actions are invited for consideration. Two copies of either an extended abstract or a full length paper should be sent to the workshop chairman before Nov 20,1986. Acceptance notices will be mailed by December 1,1986 along with instructions for preparing the final versions of accepted papers. The final versions are due January 12,1987. In order to encourage vigorous interaction and exchange of ideas the workshop will be kept small -- about 25 participants. There will be individual presentations and ample time for technical discussions. An attempt will be made to define the current state of the art and future research needs. Partial travel support (from AAAI) for participants is available. Workshop Chairman: Dr. Frank M. Brown Dept Computer Science 110 strong Hall The University of Kansas Lawrence, Kansas (913) 864-4482 Please send any net inquiries to: veach at ukans.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 16:24 EDT From: DELFIN Subject: Conference on KR & Inference in Sanskrit Conference announcement: First National Conference on Knowledge Representation and Inference in Sanskrit 20 - 22 December, 1986 Shankara Mutt, Bangalore, India Sponsored by the Computer Society of India For information write to: Dr. T. M. Srinivasan Madras Institute of Technology Madras 600-036, India or Rick Briggs Delfin Systems 2001 Gateway Pl, Suite 420 San Jose, CA 95110 408-295-1818 ------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 86 10:00 EDT From: Bruce Nevin Subject: Language and Information I just received an announcement of the 28th annual Bampton Lectures in America. (It's called an `invitation', but it also says `no card of admission required'. An enquiry to the Office of the Secretary, 308 Low Library, would clarify how open it is.) Past lecturers have included Steven Weinberg, Jacob Bronowski, Fred Hoyle, Northrop Frye, Paul Tillich, Lewis Mumford, and Arnold Toynbee. Dates: October 7, 8, 14, and 15, 1986 Time: 5:30 Place: The Rotunda, Low Memorial Library, Columbia University Speaker: Zellig Harris Series title: Language and Information The individual lectures are entitled as follows: Tuesday, October 7 A Formal Theory of Syntax Wednesday, October 8 Science Sublanguages Tuesday, October 14 Information Wednesday, October 15 The Nature of Language The announcement text follows: The formal development of structural linguistics, transformational and discourse analysis, and the elaboration of global mathematical structures in a natural language are, in large measure, due to the work of Zellig Harris. This work, with its constructive orientation, has established his reputation as a leading scientist here and abroad. His recent work--the subject of these Bampton lectures--sets forth a formal theory of syntax and establishes its implications for discovery of structures of information in science and the understanding of the nature of language. Harris is the principal author of _The Form of Information in Science_ (forthcoming in the series Boston Studies in the Philosophy of Science) and his _Mathematical Approach to a Theory of Language_ is to be published by Oxford University Press. For some indication why this is especially relevant for computational linguistics, see my review of Harris' 1982 book, _A Grammar of English on Mathematical Principles_, which appeared in _Computational Linguistics_ 10.3-4 (1984). I guess this review is the reason I received the invitation. Bruce Nevin bn at cch.bbn.com ------------------------------ End of NL-KR Digest ******************* From alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de Thu Dec 7 09:35:49 1995 From: alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de (alfredo at sunny.mpimf-heidelberg.mpg.de) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:35:49 +0100 Subject: What is heavy footed Message-ID: <161227021978.23782.6528117758164679360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >a heavy footed freie Universitat obsessive mind. We do not need political Dear Serge, Dear Indologists, Even though I am no interested in politics, I do have a great interest in language. Does any any one knows what 'heavy footed' mean, and what is the origen of such expression. freie Universitat correspond to the german expresion 'freie Universitaet' and it mean free university. So 'freie Universitat obsessive mind' could means the members of a university whose mind is obsessed with freedom. A bahub.rhi compound. Alternatively,the expression could mean a mind obsesed through the freedom of the university, and at the same time 'heavy footed.' Could this mean heavy rooted, or deeply rooted ? In any case I still not knowing what heavy foot is . . . Thanks, A.V. ______________________________________________________________ Alfredo Villarroel Max-Planck-Institut fuer medizinische Forschung Jahnstr. 29 D-69120 Heidelberg e-mail alfredo at sunny.mpimf-Heidelberg.mpg.de FaX: (06221) 486-459 ______________________________________________________________ From JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl Thu Dec 7 10:21:48 1995 From: JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl (JHOUBEN at rullet.LeidenUniv.nl) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 11:21:48 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit perfect Interlingua Message-ID: <161227021980.23782.17904005465670948544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, In an article by Achyutananda Dash ("K?raka-theory for knowledge representation", in Sa.mbh?.s? (University of Nagoya) 1992, vol. 13) reference was made to the well-known discussion on the potential of shastric Sanskrit to serve as an interlingua in computer applications for machine translation. Dash mentions not only Rick Briggs' 1985 article "Knowledge Representation in Sanskrit and Artificial Intelligence" (in the AI (Artificial Intelligence) Magazine, volume 6, no.1, spring 1985), but also refers to critical reactions to Briggs' views by Kiparsky, Michael, Dyer and others. According to Dash (1992:59, note 27) these critical reactions would have appeared in "A.I., List Digest, 5 Oct. 1984, volume 2, issue 131." Unfortunately, I could not find any "A.I., List Digest" in our Library or in other library-catalogue accessible to me by computer. Moreover, it is strange (and probably incorrect) that critical reactions to an article of 1985 would have appeared in an issue of 1984. Is there anyone who can help me find the correct reference to the critical reactions of Kiparsky and others to Briggs' article? The context in which Dash refers to Kiparsky and others suggests that they criticized Briggs' ideas by pointing out that Sanskrit has anaphoric constructions, pronouns, synonyms, homonyms, reflexive constructions, poetry, etc., something which would exclude this language beforehand from being a useful interlingua for Machine Translation. I would be very much obliged if someone could help me find the correct reference to the "AI List Digest" criticism of Briggs' ideas. I am also interested in further references to discussions of this subject. Jan E.M. Houben International Institute for Asian Studies P.O. Box 9515 2312 RA Leiden, the Netherlands. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 11:51:46 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 11:51:46 +0000 Subject: Speaking digitally (fwd) Message-ID: <161227021981.23782.2114238539854237943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, This is very interesting indeed. As you probably know, I have been heavily involved in developing standards and software in this area. I was chair of the Text Encoding Initiative committee on TEI document headers -- basically I (we) wrote chapter 5 of the TEI _Guidelines for Electronic Text Encoding and Interchange_ ed. C. M. Sperberg-McQueen and Lou Burnard (Chicago, Oxford: TEI, 1994.). The same TEI Guidelines deal extensively with the digital markup of critical editions: vol.1, chapter 18 "Transcription of Primary Sources", chapter 19 "Critical Apparatus". Michael Sperberg-McQueen in particular has/had many interesting ideas about the digital presentation of editions, including his famous "Rhine Delta" idea of presenting the cohering-decohering picture of a text as a map like a complex river delta, with textual "streams" flowing into each other and separating again. With a computer display, one could actually present an edition in this way, offering the judgement of an editor alongside the opportunity for a reader to make their own choices. I know a printed edition does this too (indeed, that's the very point), but it could be more obviously and flexibly implemented if done digitally. Chapter 19 of the TEI Guidelins was quite heavily influenced by the work that John Lavagnino and I did in developing the package EDMAC, a set of markup tags and TeX macros for typesetting critical editions (see the journal _TUGboat_ 11 (1990), pp. 623 ff. for an overview; fuller treatment in press). Incidentally, EDMAC has been used in the production of many critical editions in many languages, including some of Leibniz's writings (work done by Menso Folkerts and colleagues at the Institute for the History of Science in Munich). I am trying to load the Leibniz edition you mentioned right now, in another window, but it is a very slow link, so I can't comment yet. Thanks a ton for posting the information. I would hope that *any* work in this area would at least be informed by the work of the TEI Guidelines, which are precisely designed to address this problem. And since the TEI adopts SGML as its base tag definition system, and HTML is a subset of SGML, I would think that applying the TEI Guidelines to Web editions would be rather easy and appropriate. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. FAX: +44 171 611 8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Thu Dec 7 03:48:23 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 14:48:23 +1100 Subject: Atheism in Hinduism: help needed Message-ID: <161227021973.23782.16471229833539336284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have published a fair bit on this from the MImAMsA position. Look up Philosophers' Index cumulatively. Best-- On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Partha Banerjee wrote: > I am trying to find references dealing with the subject of atheism in > Hinduism. Its historical background, dialectics, the present place of the > atheist in Hindu religion compared to some other major religions, and all > that. > > Any help is appreciated. > > -Partha Banerjee > > Dept. of Biology > University at Albany > Albany, New York > > > > From magier at columbia.edu Thu Dec 7 20:11:50 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 15:11:50 -0500 Subject: [steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steven M. Poulos): for the SAG] Message-ID: <161227021993.23782.13818745988836348075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list from The South Asia Gopher. If you need further information please contact the BULPIP Program directly at the address/phones given. Thank you. David Magier --------------- Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu by mailhub2.cc.columbia.edu with SMTP id AA25469 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK for ); Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:05:38 -0500 Received: from violet.berkeley.edu (violet.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.22]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA05904 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:05:07 -0500 Received: from [128.32.187.191] by violet.berkeley.edu (8.7.1/1.33r) id IAA09947; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:26:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:26:39 +0400 To: David Magier From: steve at violet.berkeley.edu (Steven M. Poulos) Subject: for the SAG BERKELEY URDU LANGUAGE PROGRAM IN PAKISTAN 1996-1997 Background The 24th Berkeley Urdu Language Program in Pakistan will provide 30 weeks of Urdu instruction in two 15-week terms, with winter and spring breaks, >From September, 1996 through May, 1997. Particularly well-qualified persons unable to spend the entire academic year may apply for one term. Independent scholars and faculty members who wish to improve their knowledge of Urdu in conjunction with ongoing or planned research are encouraged to apply. This is strictly a language program. Eligibility Applicants must be citizens or permanent residents of the United States. Plan A: Before beginning the program, applicants must have completed at least two years of Urdu and/or Hindi, or the equivalent, and should have a good knowledge of the Urdu script. Students having completed one year of Urdu and/or Hindi by June 1996 are eligible to apply if they intend to take an intensive second-year summer Urdu/Hindi course at the University of Washington, Seattle, or at the University of Wisconsin, Madison during the summer of 1996. Plan B: Urdu language instruction will be offered to a limited number of U.S. scholars conducting research in Pakistan. We can accommodate all levels of ability; private tuition may be secured on a contingency basis. We encourage American Institute of Pakistan Studies fellows to use the BULPIP facilities. Cost The costs to participants are a $25 application fee and a program fee of $2,000 for the full academic year, or $1,300 for one term. Plan A: Intensive advanced language students may fund their participation in one of the following three ways: USIA/NMERTA funding: Contingent upon funding by USIA, a number of full fellowships will be awarded to US citizens. These will cover round-trip transportation to Pakistan, a maintenance allowance, and health insurance. No provision is made for dependents. FLAS fellowships: If your home institution is a Title VI National Resource Center, ask about Foreign Language and Area Studies (FLAS) fellowships. Private funding. Students may participate on the program using their own funds. Ask us about total costs. You must pay all expenses in the United States before departing for Pakistan. Plan B: Those interested in language training other than the advanced program should contact us, giving specifics of the level and degree of training required. You must pay all expenses in the United States, prior to departure for Pakistan. Deadline The application deadline is March 1, 1996. Request applications and additional information from Berkeley Urdu Language Program in Pakistan Center for South Asia Studies University of California, Berkeley 201 Moses Hall # 2310 Berkeley, CA 94720-2310 Tel: (510) 642-3608 Fax: (510) 643-5793 Email: udrebba at uclink.berkeley.edu The University of California actively promotes equal opportunity; women and minorities are encouraged to apply. All qualified students-regardless of race, sex, color, creed, age, handicap, sexual orientation, or national origin-are welcome. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ From tart at iastate.edu Thu Dec 7 21:12:41 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 15:12:41 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227021995.23782.4550970840461867716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want to agree with Ms Rosser. In between the old left usage of the phrase *political correctness* and recent new right's usage there was a new left usage that was essentially a joke about people who took their politics and themselves a bit too seriously. And then the right came along with its quaint epithetical usage of PC as a designation for any language or politics that they didn't like. I can seldom make serious sense out of the term as anything but a name to call objections to intentions that someone on the right wants to lable a language issue rather than face as the social issue being referred to. Think about this as you encounter the term. Gary Tartakov From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 15:19:36 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 15:19:36 +0000 Subject: WEB page updates Message-ID: <161227021986.23782.12579933139285502543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yesterday I did some updating to our INDOLOGY Web page, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html I have added links to the Institute of Asian Studies, Leiden, to the Institute for Indology and Tamil Studies, Koeln, to some antiquarian booksellers, and perhaps most important of all, a link to the Tuebingen University Library Online Public Access Catalogue. Tuebingen's library, as you may know, holds Germany's prime Indological collection. Dominik Wujastyk From kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu Thu Dec 7 22:28:37 1995 From: kamal at link.lanic.utexas.edu (Kamal Adhikary) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 16:28:37 -0600 Subject: Call for Articles for Sagar Message-ID: <161227021997.23782.5120035632084793472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Collegues, I am an anthropologist. My area is south Asian languages and cultures. I joined the 'indology mailing list' a couple of weeks ago, and I am enjoying the ongoing debate on the Indian politics that has been posted almost daily for the past few days. I am sure I will contribute something soon. For now I like to post a call for paper for 'Sagar, South Asia Journal'. The detail is given below. I hope you will respond to it. Thank you. kamal CALL FOR PAPERS Graduate Students! We Want Your Papers! Sagar is a biannual journal sponsored by the Center for Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin. The journal showcases exceptional graduate student and junior scholar articles. It also includes faculty and graduate research methodology, reports from the field, and occasional book reviews. The journal is available in electronic and bound editions. Members of our editorial collective include: Ali Asani, Richard Barnett, Manu Bhagavan, Nandi Bhatia, James Brow, Paul Courtright, Chandra DeSilva, Nicholas Dirks, Jeffrey Durham, Diana Eck, Wilhelm Halbfass, Robert Hardgrave, Walter Hauser, Atul Kohli, Pauline Kolenda, Janice Leoshko, Wm. Roger Louis, Rachel Meyer, Gail Minault, David Pinault, Leah Renold, Paula Richman, Richard Salomon, Nikhil Sinha, Cynthia Talbot, Thomas Trautmann, and Eleanor Zelliot SUBMISSION INFORMATION Submissions should be no more than 6,250 words (approximately 25 double-spaced pages) on any topic dealing with South Asia. Please include full footnotes and bibliographies according to the latest edition of the Chicago Manual of Style (Turabian); do not use parenthetical references. Contributors are encouraged to submit their articles either on diskettes or by email. Printed or typewritten articles are also accepted; 8.5? by 11? paper is preferred. Authors must include their names, addresses, phone numbers, fax numbers, email addresses, titles, universities and year in graduate school (if appropriate). All relevant information must be provided in order for submission to be considered. Authors shall retain copyright if their article is selected for publication. However, by submitting an article, authors grant Sagar permission to publish it. Contributors should refrain from seeking other avenues of publication until Sagar?s selection process is complete. Illustrations and photographs should be submitted unattached; all accompanying captions should be type-written on a separate page (do not write on the pictures). Tables may be included in the body of the text. If an article is accepted for publication, author(s) will have five days to edit and return proofs. Significant changes may be requested. If not returned on time, editors reserve the right to remove article from consideration. Books for review and correspondence concerning reviews should be sent to the editor. Deadline for the spring issue is 1 January and deadline for the fall issue is 1 October. Authors will receive notification of acceptance in February for the spring issue and November for the fall issue. Submissions and inqueries should be sent to the following address: Sagar Asian Studies Campus Mail Code G9300 Austin, Texas 78712-1194 Phone: (512) 471: 5811 FAX (512) 471-4469 sagrj at emx.cc.utexas.edu Sagar is available on the World Wide Web at the following URL: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/sagar/sagar.main.html Thanks _______________ Kamal R. Adhikary, Ph.D. Internet Coordinator, Asian Studies UT, Austin, Texas 78712 Tel:512-475-6034 Email:kamal at asnic.utexas.edu >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 07 95 Dec EST 21:25:41 Date: 07 Dec 95 21:25:41 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: Help with quotes needed. Hello everyone, At present I have neither access to a library nor to my own books. Could you therefore please help me to verify the following quotes and also send me the Devanagari? Please use the KYOTO-HARVARD CONVENTION for transliteration: a A i I u U R RR L LL e ai o au M H k kh g gh G c ch j jh J T Th D Dh N t th d dh n p ph b bh m y r l v z S s h Thank you very, very much for your help! Hans-Georg Turstig Rigveda 1.50 His shining beams now introduce the God who knows all living things, that all may see the Sun. Accompanying the somber Night, the stars, like thieves, now steel away at the all-seeing Sun's approach. His herald rays are seen from far, shining on the homes of men like tongues of fire that burn and blaze. Swift and beautiful are you, O Sun, maker of the Light, who illumines all the radiant sky. You shine upon the hosts of Gods and likewise on the race of men, that all may see the heavenly Light. You steer your path across the sky, O Sun, across the realms of space, measuring the days by means of your shining, observing all that comes to birth. Gazing beyond the dark, we reach the supreme Light and attain the Sun, the God of Gods, the light. Rigveda 4.57.3 Sweet be the plans for us, sweet be the heavens, sweet be the waters and the air of the sky! May the Lord of the Field show us honeylike sweetness. Yajurveda 19.9 O supreme Lord, you are full of fiery spirit. Give me fiery spirit. You are vigor; give me vigor. You are strength; give me strength. You are discipline; give me discipline. You are conquering might; give me conquering might. >From the Upanishads You have to be courageous to do sadhana. Only a courageous soul is able to pursue sadhana. >From the Rigveda O Lord, may we ever hear auspicious words with our ears. Samaveda 446 (?) Listen to the melodious music of the divine poet. He plays upon the flute of love - and the notes soar to heaven and reach the distant stars and dance on the raging waves of the sea. The earth, the sea, the sky, the stars are all woven together by the soft strains of the divine music. Its vibrations echo through the corridors of time in the endless canopy of the sky. Atharvaveda 12.1 Untrammeled in the midst of men, the Earth, adorned with heights and gentle slopes and plains, bears plants and herbs of various healing powers. May she spread wide for us and offer us joy! Rigveda 10.71.4 Certain ones, though seeing, may not see Her, and other ones, though hearing, may not hear Her. But to some, the Word reveals herself quite freely, like a fair-robed bride surrendering to her husband. Shatapathabrahmana The cosmic mind was said to be neither existent nor non-existent. Once created, this mind desired to become manifest. The cosmic mind then created the word. From echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de Thu Dec 7 18:55:18 1995 From: echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (echnaton at fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 17:55:18 -0100 Subject: Again Re,to Serge Thion Message-ID: <161227021988.23782.10123083938979810386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the List, Although I didn't want to talk about this in the list anymore I have to do for a last time again.First of all let me ask you for this.When attacking me if you may be right or not it would be in the way of politeness to adress me somehow.What you choose is acceptable for me.Thank you I beg your very pardon when having written a word wrong.That can happen.It was not me talking about a Indian Party being fascistic.And when I say something about silly brainless people in my country,I mean my country.And I never said when telling my oppinion that all the people who have elected are brainless.This I would say when people who know whom they are electing and what they are electing do that.When one tells me that I am writing words not in the correct spelling,look at your own.And it is you calling me brainless or did I missunderstood something?I hope so.Who,let me ask you tells you that I am an ideologist.Did I say anything against that fascism was invented in Germany?And everyone who thinks fascism to be quite right only when been elected by the people,what can one say... At least if there is anything more someone of you wants to tell me because of what I wrote,see my e-mail adress and call me directly.That will not take the time or place of the list.Thank you again. Yours with friendly greetings to all Ulrich O tempora,o mores! From miked at bgnet.bgsu.edu Fri Dec 8 03:20:02 1995 From: miked at bgnet.bgsu.edu (Michael Ian Doliveck) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 22:20:02 -0500 Subject: Tibet Message-ID: <161227021999.23782.1316475876054507104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello, i've been reading the posts on this list for a couple months and find them interesting and intelligent. i know this is a completely different topic but i feel it important to share with as many people as i can, the information concerning the current situation in Tibet. there is a holocaust occurring there and most people are completely unaware. i receive information from 5 or 6 sources relaying current happenings in Tibet. i condense them and send them to a mailing list. i would like to invite the members of this list to send me their e mail address to be added to the list (as well as any others you think might be interested). sorry to get off the topic. thank you for your time- michael ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Doliveck miked at bgnet.bgsu.edu 212 North Church Street WWW Page- http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~miked/ Bowling Green, Ohio 43403 Phone (419)353-1048 U.S.A. FAX: (419)372-0304 c/o Linda Nieman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My portfolio can be viewed at: http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~miked/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From wagers at computek.net Fri Dec 8 07:07:27 1995 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 01:07:27 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022001.23782.12905528842463906763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary Tartakov writes: >In between the old left usage of the phrase *political correctness* and >recent new right's usage there was a new left usage that was essentially >a joke about people who took their politics and themselves a bit too >seriously. And then the right came along with its quaint epithetical >usage of PC as a designation for any language or politics that they didn't >like. > >I can seldom make serious sense out of the term as anything but a name >to call objections to intentions that someone on the right wants to lable >a language issue rather than face as the social issue being referred to. "Political correctness" refers to the removal of an entire topic from the arena of discourse due to overt and covert pressures. Americans couldn't discuss Communism or organized labor rationally in the fifties and sixties, the poor and under- privileged in the sixties and seventies, racism in the seventies and eighties, nor abortion rationally in the eighties and nineties. Whether on target or misguided, the right is honestly complaining about their points of view (on these topics - not defense) being suppressed and ignored (politically incorrect) for at least three decades. And, since America is broke and in turmoil, partly as a result of their being ignored, a great many people are willing to listen to them. Don't worry, I am neither a New Deal Democrat nor a Moral Majoritist. >Think about this as you encounter the term. Sincerely, Will From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu Fri Dec 8 10:12:43 1995 From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 04:12:43 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022004.23782.14097304917702976314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suspect like many others I've been watching this thread -- which is darn important -- degenerate into academic demagoguery. That anyone speaking for or about the Indian tradition, with its plethora of positions, gods, traditions, etc., could contemplate that there is only one correct political position (especially since the term "politically correct" comes from a movement more prone to factionalism than almost any other) is astounding. Mr. Sharma has, rightly in my mind, tried to very carefully and politely suggest that we make an important distinction between the issues and events that have engendered certain Hindu concerns (many of which are legitimate and dire concerns) and the reactions that certain Hindus have had to those concerns (some of which may be questionable, but some of which may be more legitimate or understandable given the circumstances than some of us might wish to admit or recognize at first blush). The concerns -- which are what we should be concentrating on -- have been buried under posturing, jargoneering ("pc sensitizes to suppressed issues," "pc is intimidation that suppresses free thought and expression", "facist", "fundamentalist", etc.), and the basic fact that Indians have both historical and contemporary reasons for being legitimately concerned about the original "orientalists", viz. the Muslims, who, amongst other orientalist acts coined the term "Hindu" (which the British eventually turned into a legal term) and their future impact on the future of India, has gotten lost in the crossfire. The presence of Muslims in India (and the disappearing presence of Hindus in Pakistan, etc.) is not analogous to the growing Muslim presence in European nations like France and England, which are, after all, reaping the unwanted harvest of their own imperialist actions. The Muslims, not the Indians, were the imperialists. And they wiped out Buddhism, which had been the dominant religion throughout Central Asia from Parthia (eastern Iran) eastward, on their way to India. They finished the job once they got there. Jains survived by transforming the foundations of their tradition, shifting from a monastic tradition to a lay tradition. Events since 1947, since the partitioning, have done little to assuage Indian/Hindu fears. That Temples were destroyed and/or converted to mosques is fact. Whether all of the mosques today being identified as such are actually such is another question. That Indians/Hindus have not been in control of their own destiny for roughly a thousand years until the middle of this century, is also a fact. That neither their present borders nor population balances are stable is also a fact. Nor is it the case that it is only Hindus today who preach and practice nontolerance of their co-nationals and neighbors; aside from a vague principle that one should respect others' religion, South East Asian muslims most often raise their children to have few pleasant thoughts about Hindus, something my Pakistani and Indian Muslim students have never denied -- more often they express how happy they are to be in the U.S. where they can both recognize the silliness and harm of such posturing, and take steps to overcome that attitude ingrained within them without running into the peer pressure that would make such reconsiderations close to impossible back home. Few of us enjoy seeing conflict and worse; and it's not necessarily our task to take sides in this old struggle. But wagging one's finger at one side without recognizing the legitimacy of their concerns while simultaneously ignoring equally provocative attitudes and actions from the other side is tantamount to taking sides. If all the posturing and jargoneering succeeds in distracting the conversation from the real issues, that will go a long way to proving that pc is indeed a means for suppressing critical thinking and free expression, despite all protests to the contrary. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College From tart at iastate.edu Fri Dec 8 13:59:07 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 07:59:07 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022006.23782.13539156867693106497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am particularly concerned with the problem of a usage like *Indian/Hindus* Though I can agree with much of Dan Lufthaus post, that encourages us to take the interests and legitimate fears of Brahmanical Hindus seriously, I feel we need to be much more careful about how we define Hindus and Muslims in our consideration. Muslims didn't invent the term Hindu, those north of the Indus River did long before the emergence of Islam. And one of the things most often mistaken in common discussion is to call the Turkish and Afghan invasions Muslim, as if they were religious invasions. Clearly these and later invasions were by Islamic peoples and Islam had great effects on subsequent history, but they were not simply or even primarily religious invasions. My reasons for this are the same as I have for not considering the Spanish, Portuguese, English, Dutch, and French invasions of the Americas, Africa, Asia, and Australia simply or primarily Christian invasions, even though these conquistadors were Christians and Christianity played an important role in subsequent history. Buddhism's decline is a very complex issue, and I know little about Central Asia, but it is a crude mistake to consider the end of Buddhism in India in the thirteenth century a Muslim act. To return to the term Hindu, it was not a term for Brahmanical peoples in the thirteen century and after, it was a term for people who lived south of the Indus and in often included Muslims of that region. It certainly has another meaning now, but we should be careful not to include in it all the non-Brahmanical peoples who inhabit India, for there are more of these than just Muslims. Sikhs are considered Hindus by the Indian constitution today, but they certainly are not in terms of their religious beliefs. Most important here, I think, is the need to remember that the Muslim peoples of India today are indigenous Indians who's communities have converted to Islam. We should not make the mistake of considering them somehow foreigners. If we make the mistake of using some sort of phrase as *Indian/Hindus* we confuse ourselves and the issues dangerously. When we talk of Indians we include Muslims, Sikhs, Adivasis, Buddhists and I don't know how many other peoples, who are not Brahmanical Hindus. When we say *Indian* today we may mean what people in the 13th century meant by *Hindu*, but they stand for different things today. Gary Tartakov From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Fri Dec 8 20:02:42 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 10:02:42 -1000 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022010.23782.2930869704922513897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995 LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu wrote: > "fundamentalist", etc.), and the basic fact that Indians have both ^^^^^^^ > historical and contemporary reasons for being legitimately concerned about the > original "orientalists", viz. the Muslims, who, amongst other orientalist acts ^^^^^^^ It is not an "Indians vs. Muslims" issue. As you know, many Indians are Muslims. No offence intended, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Dec 8 11:07:39 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 11:07:39 +0000 Subject: WEB pages updates Message-ID: <161227022003.23782.12617307328368775409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, in connection with your message on WEB pages updates I should like to mention that you can also access the OPAC of Goettingen University Library. The WWW address is: http:/www.uni-goettingen.de/~sub/homepage.htm or telnet to: opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de (alternative no.: 134.76.163.12) username: opc for exit enter: stp (whenever ENTER is required, use ENTER, not RETURN!) or by phone via modem: (Germany) (0)551 / 39-9911 Although the Tuebingen collection is by far larger, especially for the post-war period, in which Tuebingen has functioned as the federal Special Collections Library (Sondersammelgebietsbibliothek) for South Asia, Goettingen might also be of interest. In theory, the Goettingen OPAC comprises ALL holdings, except for the period from 1945 to 1977. HOWEVER: the pre-1945 data were copied from the old folio catalogue by temporary staff untrained in Indian languages, and have not been checked against the books. Needless to add, there are a number of mistakes and inconsistencies. And another qualification: the old series (Bibliotheca Indica, Bombay SPS, ChSS Kashi SS, etc.) have only been partly converted. Nevertheless, everybody is welcome to give it a try. I would be very interested to hear what you think of it. Regards Reinhold Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From magier at columbia.edu Fri Dec 8 21:50:08 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 16:50:08 -0500 Subject: WEB pages updates Message-ID: <161227022012.23782.1755652568260398640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > in connection with your message on WEB pages updates I should like to > mention that you can also access the OPAC of Goettingen University > Library. > > The WWW address is: > > http:/www.uni-goettingen.de/~sub/homepage.htm ^ slight typo there: it should have two slashes, that is: http://www.uni-goettingen.de/~sub/homepage.htm David Magier From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sat Dec 9 01:36:58 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 17:36:58 -0800 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022018.23782.2122578170992797322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Tartakov says: >And one of the things most often >mistaken in common discussion is to call the Turkish and Afghan >invasions Muslim, as if they were religious invasions. Clearly these and later >invasions were by Islamic peoples and Islam had great effects on >subsequent history, but they were not simply or even primarily religious invasio >ns. > >My reasons for this are the same as I have for not considering the >Spanish, Portuguese, English, Dutch, and French invasions of the Americas, >Africa, Asia, and Australia simply or primarily Christian invasions, Does this mean that in your view, there are *no* "religious invasions"? To be sure, an invasion is driven by a combination of factors, economic, political and cultural, but it seems to me that religion (or more accurately, religious differences) played an important part in the whole scenario. The Turkic and Afghan invasions into India differ qualitatively from the European invasions of the Americas in one important respect. The Afghans knew a great deal about India, and could have invaded deep into Indian territory centuries before they were Muslims. But they don't seem to have done that to any significant extent. But after they became Muslims, there was a spurt of martial activity. What was the reason? It may not be very diplomatic to point it out, but the example of the prophet himself was a significant driving force for the Arab, Turk and Afghan peoples in their invasions into other lands. For centuries before the prophet, the Arabs were trading with India and th rest of the world, by land and sea. It is very difficult not to attribute the sudden rise in invasions by the Arabs and the Turks to the growth of Islam. As for the Afghans, they were being pushed by the Arabs on the west, and turned to eastern lands to invade them. This might have been the reason in the beginning, but soon it took a strongly religious hue. Mohammed of Ghazni certainly sold his repeated forays into India to his own clergy as being motivated by religion. Getting back to the difference between Afghans invading India and the Europeans invading America, it lies in the fact that while the Afghans certainly knew much about India, America was discovered by accident. Once that initial discovery was done, the papacy certainly got into the act. It was organized religion supporting organized and not so organized armies in the case of Spain and Portugal invading America and also to a smaller extent, India. The motivation to win souls for the "true religion" was a very important component in this case also. The records certainly show that religion played a very important, perhaps the most important part, in motivating these invasions. The same story goes for the much touted Crusades. Like it or not, differences in religion did and continue to play significant roles in invasion. One only has to remember the recent Oklahoma city bombings. The all-too-convenient Islamic threat was easily invoked throughout the US and people were ready to go to war if a Muslim was found guilty. Vidya From tony_stewart at ncsu.edu Sat Dec 9 00:32:45 1995 From: tony_stewart at ncsu.edu (tony_stewart at ncsu.edu) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 19:32:45 -0500 Subject: TRIANGLE SOUTH ASIA CONSORTIUM WORKSHOP ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227022016.23782.13421551608899006683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> **** PLEASE CIRCULATE **** **** WORKSHOP PROGRAM **** "The Uses of Visual Evidence in the Study of South Asia" workshop sponsored by Independent Scholars of South Asia (ISOSA) and Triangle South Asia Consortium (?SAC) at North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 27-28 January 1996 The Triangle South Asia Consortium and the Independent Scholars of South Asia are pleased to announce the schedule of presentations for their jointly sponsored workshop, titled "The Uses of Visual Evidence in the Study of South Asia." The program will be held in the Alumni Center at North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC on 27-28 January 1996. Friday 26 January 1996 Informal evening gathering (TBA) Saturday 27 January 1996 09:00 Welcome by Tony K. Stewart, Director Triangle South Asia Consortium 09:10-10:00 Session 1 Mary Beth Heston, College of Charleston "The Problems of Vision: Images and Representation" 10:00-10:15 break 10:15-12:00 Session 2 Carol Bolon, University of Maryland "An Indus Enigma: Race and Gener Issues of Two Monuments" Geoffrey Cook, Independent Scholar "How the Harappan Past is Viewed: Art Historian and Archaeologist: 12:00-13:15 lunch 13:15-15:00 Session 3 Joanne Punzo Waghorne, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill "Confronting the Visual Evidence of the Bourgeois: The Case of Madras Temples" Namita Gupta Wiggers, Graduate Student, The University of Chicago "Producing a Place Like Home: Diasporic Domesticity in Chicago's South Asia Community" 15:00-15:15 break 15:15-16:45 Session 4 Georgana Foster, Independent Scholar "The Iconography of the Political Campaigns of 1990-91 in India" Rupal Oza, Rutgers University "Footprints from the Sky: Popular Culture and Economic Liberalization in India" 16:45-17:00 Response and summary David Gilmartin, North Carolina State University Afroz Taj, North Carolina State University and the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Katherine P. Ewing, Duke University 19:00-????? Reception at home of Tony and Julie Stewart transportation will be arranged Sunday 28 January 1996 09:15-11:30 Session 5 Ananda Mitra, Wake Forest University "South Asia on Celluloid: Images of Places and People' Steve Derne, State University of New York-Genesco "Making Sex Violent: Love and Force in Recent Hindi Film" 11:30-11:45 Break 11:45-12:30 Response and summary Satti Khanna, Duke University Mary Beth Heston, College of Charleston Tony K. Stewart, North Carolina State University 12:30-13:30 Informal lunch (optional) * * * * * * Conference Registration and Invitations. The symposium is open to the general academic public, but with limited seating available. Should you wish to attend, please contact the organizers for confirmation of attendance. Space will be assigned on a first come first served basis. Written invitations can be furnished upon request. *There is no registration fee*. Graduate students should identify themselves for special meal subsidy. Accommodations. Workshop participants will find accommodations convenient to the workshop venue (two blocks away) at the Brownstone Hotel 1707 Hillsborough Street Raleigh, NC 27605 ph. 919/828-0811 ph. 1-800/237-0772 (outside North Carolina) ph. 1-800/331-7919 (within North Carolina) Rates are singles $56 + 12% tax [=$62.72] and doubles $66 + 12% tax [=$73.92]. Reservations should be made directly to the hotel by 05 January 1996 in order to guarantee a room at the preferred rate. You should mention your participation in the workshop when making the reservation. If you would like to attend, but need a roommate, please note that to the Brownstone reservationist or contact the organizers. Transportation. Those attending should arrive in Raleigh on Friday 26 January 1996. Raleigh-Durham International Airport (RDU) is served by Midway Airlines (RDU is its hub) and Midway Express, American Airlines, USAir, Delta, United, Continential, Northwest-Orient, TWA, AirSouth, ValueJet, and host of smaller commuter lines. Ground transportation from the airport is easily available by bus, limo, or taxi. Amtrak service to Raleigh is available from major metro areas of the Eastern corridor. For those driving, maps and parking instructions will be furnished upon request. Information. For more information or to receive written confirmation of attendance, contact: Tony K. Stewart, Director Triangle South Asia Consortium Box 8101 North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8101 phone 919/515-6335 fax 919/515-7856 e-mail For additional program information, contact: Mary Beth Heston, Program Director Independent Scholars of South Asia Department of Art History College of Charleston, Charleston, SC 29424; phone 803/953-6313 fax 803/953-8212 e-mail From bomaad40 at giasbm01.vsnl.net.in Fri Dec 8 20:29:27 1995 From: bomaad40 at giasbm01.vsnl.net.in (MR.V.S.MURALI) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:29:27 +0000 Subject: QUICK & CHEAP CONNECTION TO INDIA Message-ID: <161227022008.23782.17437427674661935477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi netters. Do you want to send faxes/messages/letters to people in India quickly and real cheap? Here is a great service whereby you can send your letters/faxes to people in India who don't have an EMail connection. All you have to do is EMail your letter/fax/message to the given EMail address. Then depending on your instructions, your matter will either be: 1. Faxed to its destination. 2. Printed on paper and posted locally in India (so that it reaches in 2-3 days time). 3. Communicated to the person by telephone. You can thus save on your phone/fax/postage charges and also get the message delivered quickly. There is even a free trial offer available. For more information, send EMail to: bomaad40 at giasbm01.vsnl.net.in Also type the Subject as: IndiaCom Info Regards. --- Murali. From B.Loturco at agora.stm.it Fri Dec 8 23:27:04 1995 From: B.Loturco at agora.stm.it (B.Loturco at agora.stm.it) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 23:27:04 +0000 Subject: Rivista Studi Orientali Message-ID: <161227022014.23782.19966808158835722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wish to remind the distinguished members of the list that the new issue of the Rivista degli Studi Orientali (vol. LXVIII, fasc. 1-2, 1994) has been published recently. It contains the following articles of indological interest: F. Sferra, "Le speculazioni su vAc in alcuni testi del pAJcarAtra" (with English abstract). G. Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, "Hindu Mythology in Tamil Figurative Speech". Moreover, it contains the following book reviews: R. Torella, IzvarapratyabhijJAkArikA of Utpaladeva, (A. Pelissero, in English). F.K. Ehrhard, A. W. Macdonald (eds.), Snowlight of Everest; A History of the Sherpas of Nepal, (Sangs rgyas bstan 'dzin: Ne shar lo rgyus jo glang gangs 'od ces bya ba bzhugs so), (Elena De Rossi Filibeck). For purchases and subscriptions please apply to: Bardi Editore - Salita de' Crescenzi, 16 - 00186 Rome, Italy. Kindly forward manuscripts, periodicals in exchange and all the corrispondence to the following address: Dipartimento di Studi Orientali - Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" - P.le A. Moro 5 - 00185 Rome, Italy. Bruno Lo Turco b.loturco at agora.stm.it From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu Sat Dec 9 06:39:24 1995 From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 00:39:24 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022020.23782.11682647066696721089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Sriranga Raja wrote, replying to my posting: > It is not an "Indians vs. Muslims" issue. > As you know, many Indians are Muslims. > > No offence intended, None taken. But the question is for how long? I'm thinking less about Hindus wanting to expel Muslims as much as about secessionist movements. Are Pakistanis still Indians? They are, by the definition someone else suggested, native Indians whose ancestors converted. I appreciate the civilized criticisms my post received... at least we are now talking about how Indians have defined and been defined, rather than quibbling about generic labels of disapproval. Yes, Hindu was coined to designate anyone living south of the Indus river. It was not a religious term, but a geographical one. It was, to the best of my knowledge, coined by Muslims however. If someone has other information, I'd be interested to know what. "Indian/Hindu" was not meant to imply that the two sides of the slash were exclusivistic identities, but to note quickly a certain group. Given the context I'd be surprised if anyone misunderstood which group I meant. The term does not preclude another term "Indian/Muslim", or Indian/Jain, Indian/Parsi, Indian/Jew, etc. That a geographical term has come to designate a religious identity (not by "Hindu" choice, but as a result of the convenience and worldview of occupiers) is a symptom of the problem. That most Hindus today seem to have accomodated themselves to the term (as have many American RIndiansS) should not mask the historical conditions under which that accomodation was made, or obscure our awareness of those conditions. Contemporary political discourse seems to have difficulty recognizing territorial claims as being simultaneously religious claims; hence Zionism is easily condemnable, while the PLO cleverly uses political language ("self-determination," "autonomy," etc.) rather than religious language to make its case and build sympathy. (Yes, I know some Palestinians are Christian...), and thus have served as a useful front for Arab aggression (which otherwise would have great difficulty disguising its intent from being religious and imperialistic). The Israeli and Indian situations are remarkably parallel: The British leave both at almost the same moment, partitioning the new countries between Muslims and non-Muslims; both retain sizable Muslim populations, and experience periodic border conflicts from their Muslim neighbors; Muslims within the borders tragically get caught in the middle; etc. As for the conquest of the Americas, those missions, from the first, were religiously as well as politically and financially motivated. Columbus sailed for Spain *and* Church even before he knew there were Americas to discover. The Japanese, some centuries later, threw out the Portugese and Spanish, and agreed to trade *only* with the Dutch precisely because the Dutch alone agreed to never mention Christianity. Places like the Phillipines, Guam, etc., are not Catholic today merely as byproduct of Mercantile adventures; Missionaries arrived in the vanguard of any "merchant" enterprise (and occasionally even before the merchants). The Missionaries labeled Tasmanians as "devils" -- because they weren't good convert material -- and literally had them wiped out. Those who wish to sanitize the Muslim invasion of India (why are some too squeamish to call it that? That's what it was, whichever wave you finally concede was the "Muslim" one) clearly don't know the history of Central Asia, nor, I suspect, would they be satisfied with Islamic apologetics for the disappearance of Central Asian Buddhism (Parthia, Bactria, Sogdiana, etc.; only the Mongolian and Tibetan varieties survived, due to their inaccessiblity). The Turkish and Afghan invaders perhaps were not exclusively aiming at planting an Islamic "cross" in India; anymore than European imperialists were exclusively aiming to convert every soul they encountered. Yes, they did have other interests, but they *also* had interests based on their religious sensibilities, which dictated how infidels should be treated, etc. To this day, Islamic Law draws a sharp distinction between how a Muslim is to treat others within a Muslim country and how others are to be treated while living in a non-Muslim country. Those rules were modified over time in India (e.g, Indians became honorary "People of the Book," a category until then reserved exclusively for Jews, Christians, and Greek philosophers), but they still exist, even today. As for the disappearance of Buddhism in India -- yes, it is complex, and the vogue today seems to be to absolve Muslims as much as possible from responsibility. Nyaayikas and Vedaantins would like to take some of the creidt themselves. The fact is that we have contemporaneous accounts into the 12th and 13th century from Tibetan pilgrims, for instance, who made pilgrimage to India, only to view vihaaras and mahaavihaaras in destitute ruin, and to spend most of their time hiding from Turkish raiding parties who were conducting organized and persistent pogroms on Naalandaa and other Buddhist sites. BuddhismUs misfortune, in part, was that it had concentrated itself to a large extent in the Northwest corridor of India (due to its connections with Central Asia and the trade routes), and so were they were the first Indians -- or RHindusS -- that the Muslims encountered. By that time Muslims knew well what Buddhists were, since they had to wade through a Central Asia full of them to get to India. From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu Sat Dec 9 12:57:09 1995 From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 06:57:09 -0600 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022024.23782.18238413546776376946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mark F. Tritsch wants to know what the real problems are. It was hard for me to tell whether his characterization of what was supposed to be the typical Hindu man/woman in the street to the growing disproportion in the Indian population, or Indian Muslims cheering for Pakistan, was somewhat ironic or heartfelt. Those typical concerns, as characterized by Mr. Tritsch seem somewhat dismissive, as if they are just being silly bigots, while the *real* problems are Muslim poverty, etc. What about Hindu poverty? Let's take the example of Hindus feeling some discomfort because their co-nationals are rooting for a rival country. That is not analogous to, for instance, American-Irish rooting for an Irish team playing a U.S. team. Though many Americans take their sports seriously (as do Indians), they would find that attitude both understandable and maybe even amusing. But the U.S. has never been at war with Ireland, nor does Ireland pose any sort of threat to U.S. security at present, nor are Americans concerned that that one or several states will secede and join Ireland anytime in the foreseeable future. Where any of those conditions present, rooting for an Irish team against a U.S. team might be dangerous. I suppose Czechs in the late 30s were merely crass bigots for being concerned that there were many Germans inside their border, for whom Hitler had a protective affinity? It seems to me that situation is more analogous to the Indian one, rather than, let's say, neonazi skinheads attacking Turkish and other minorities in Germany in the 80s and 90s. The population disparities and the questionable loyalties speak to the issue of how much longer certain parts of India will remain Indian, and at what cost? In a fantasy world we might be able to dream of Tamils leaving Sri Lanka to the Sinhalese Buddhists, and Muslims who feel India is not really their government leaving India to the Hindus (and Ambedkar Buddhists, etc.), but the real world is messier than that -- and where would the Sikhs go? Most of us neither foresee nor particularly desire an India that is homogenous and uni-ethnic (the very idea boggles the mind). I cannot agree with Mr. Tritsch that one can afford to ignore or overlook history. As Santayana's (by now tired) cliche states: Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Clearly both the Hindus and the Muslims have a strong sense of their history, and events within the lifetimes of contemporary Indians more than suggest that that history can decisively and irrevocably diminish India (at a minimum, territorily). The REAL ISSUE, in a nutshell, is the very future of Hinduism, driven by the recognition that despite whatever happens to Diaspora Hindus, Hinduism and India are indissoluble. Whatever diminishes India diminishes Hinduism. Islam is certainly not the only, or maybe even the most radical, threat. The need to fundamentally shift the very social institutions that have been Hinduism for several millenia -- outlawing the caste system, altering the nature of family relations, empowering the undercastes, etc. -- is radically disruptive. Despite what most of us teach our students, Hinduism has always been more dharma'sastra than any of the abstract ontological or mythopoetic theologies we call Hinduism. Dharma'sastra is not simply about rules but about sensibilities, and those are undergoing profound changes. Having a substantial portion of your population act as if they were only temporarily under your sovereignty, all the while coveting your country or parts of it in the hopes that someday it will fly a different flag is unsettling and compounds uncertainty over the future. History indicates the danger is real enough that one cannot chalk that fear up to mere scapegoating. Finally, projecting our sensibilites on them, and insisting in our infinitely enlightened political wisdom that we must encourage them to buy into our social theories for their own good smacks of the blind arrogance coated in good intentions that typifies all the British meddling in Indian affairs. After all, as the British kept saying, Brits are the "good" imperialists (unlike those other, nasty Europeans); they were bringing civilization (a.k.a. pc-sensibilities) to the savages. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College P.S. Cricket, at this point, is such an indelible part of the Indian psyche, that is virtually "Hindu." It won't be long before stories of K.r.s.na or whomever playing cricket become part of some neo-puranas. From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sat Dec 9 14:35:46 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 09:35:46 -0500 Subject: old/new translations Message-ID: <161227022026.23782.3929660433815576780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let`s refocus, from the politically incorrect to:the grammatically incorrect. Now that the two discussions on translations have petered out, some questions remain unanswered or untouched: Scholarship is a dialectic process. In the case of Ms. O'Flaherty/Doniger's Rgveda, Jaiminiya Brahmana and Manu translations I pointed out : 1 - wrong grammnar 2 - lack of philological procedure 3 - lack in checking with predecessors/contemporaries 4 - occasionally even lack of common sense (the last "straw") Especially point 1 has not been addressed. Grammatically incorrect is grammatically incorrect is grammatically incorect. Grammatically correct popular translations *do* exist. Nobody would dare to publish a popular math book where pi = 3.41 or 2.9. Why is this (GI) procedure possible in Indology? However, if someone takes viira as nom. sing., or, in the same spirit, recites first year reading as "aasiid raajo nala naamo" on American Public Radio (a few months ago, as reported by an attentive student) then how to call this? See Max Nihom's recent characterization of such procedure. If one has such obvious problems with first year, no: first lesson Sanskrit, what to say? Become a maunavratin? Scholarship is a dialectic process: If readers feel that I was materially wrong, they should point out where my criticism was *factually* wrong and not try to deflect it to popular editions, language boundaries, local scholarly climate ("discourse") etc. I will be glad to correct and admit publicly any mistake I made in this process. Most my detailed ("pedantic"?) criticisms have not been addressed. So far I stand uncorrected and remain unconvinced. RE: new translations: Unfortunately the discussion has ground to a halt. We should discuss not only the use of parantheses and brackets but also the translation of "difficult" words such as dharma, rta, even adjectives such as hari or niila. In my O'Fl./D. contributions (where this *is* a problem) I intentionally mentioned the problem only in passing as this is a whole new line of discussion. Any takers? For the rest: not to waste any more bandwidth, most of it privately and only some generally interesting/pedantic details around Xmas. Finally: Did anyone notice that the cover of O'Fl.'s RV translation does not show "a seventeenth century birch bark manuscript from Kashmir of The Rig Veda" but, small philological detail, an unpublished commentary (as far as I see!) of the RV. Since this has been a graduate class joke for many years, finally, more in the next volume of EJVS (www.shore.net/~india/ejvs) or (ejvs-list at shore.net). MW> From conlon at u.washington.edu Sat Dec 9 18:33:07 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 10:33:07 -0800 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022027.23782.16436518355561437863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With the deepest respect to the colleagues who have been trying to sort out the "issues" on this thread, I am struck that no one has commented, perhaps because of lack of experience, upon what it means to be a Muslim in India. Although most of my research has focussed upon topics which might be related to what we now are all calling "Hinduism" (a very artificial and misleading term that contains within it enormous varieties of belief and objective condition), it has been my good fortune to also know a fairly wide variety of Indians who are labelled Muslim (yes, usually self-labelled, but objectively often more distinct from other "Muslims" than from other "Hindus"). Many of these people have shared with me their experiences of personal humiliation and discrimination at the hands of the "majority"--and at the hands of the Congress-dominated "secular state". And one or two have read a bit about American history, and recognize that the ironic similarities of the ideas about "mixed loyalties" and "breeding like bunnies" applied to them when compared to the racist and nativist ideas that some white protestant Americans have routinely applied to immigrants from Ireland, from Southern and Eastern Europe, from Mexico, from the "third world", and, of course to African-Americans. Hate and fear and discrimination do not exist in abstract, reified conditions--their reality can only be refracted in the thoughts and actions of individual human beings. It is unavoidable, and it is necessary, that we discourse about "Hindus" and "Muslims" etc., but that ought not be the only perspective we keep in our vision. Frank F. Conlon University of Washington Department of History Seattle WA 98195 Co-editor of H-ASIA From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Sat Dec 9 20:52:10 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 12:52:10 -0800 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022029.23782.12050438846277440304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu writes: * Despite * what most of us teach our students, Hinduism has always been more dharma'sastra * than any of the abstract ontological or mythopoetic theologies we call * Hinduism. Dharma'sastra is not simply about rules but about sensibilities, and * those are undergoing profound changes. Are you not saying, in essence, that Hinduism IS caste? Mani From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Sat Dec 9 11:59:12 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 12:59:12 +0100 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022022.23782.18125781805647045839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Gary Tartakov that it is important to keep in mind that India's Muslims are just as much Indians as the Hindus are. I would like Dan Lusthaus to say what exactly are the REAL ISSUES, which he fears we are losing sight of. In fact I'm not sure we've yet even caught sight of the real issues in this thread. It's all been too academic. Here's my attempt. I just found the following news item: (in INDIA-NEWS at LISTPROC.BGSU.EDU) HINDU POPULATION GROWTH RATE DIPS The muslim population in the country has shown a decadeal growth rate of 32.74% as against 22.76% in case of Hindus as per 1991 census, Minister of State for Home Affairs Ram Lal Rahi informed the Lok Sabha on Thursday. Now I know from personal experience that this is something that really makes your average person in the street in Nagpur, Pune or Bangalore BUZZ if he's Hindu, been to school, works hard and has just two children because he or his wife use contraception: "Along come these Muslims and have God knows how many kids!" Then there are the cricket matches. Pakistan wins and the "Indian" Muslims break out into jubilation! "Well where do they belong?" Surely the job of the student of India is to try to see solutions to the problems. How can the disproportional, abysmal poverty and ignorance of the Indian Muslims be ameliorated as quickly as possible, how can the influence of their clergy be reduced, so that they become part of the future, not a chain to the past. That means including the study of the Muslim side of India in Indology (there I agree very much with JB Sharma). OK, these are social-political issues, but if we're going to discuss such non-issues as PC... We might be talking about the quota question here. Does this work as a kind of modern extension of the caste system? That might be a good thing. Or does it only cement the differences? I think people concerned with women's rights and education might also have something to say about Muslim India (really we all should be). The recent history is important: how and why Congress made such a hash of giving the Muslims a "we" feeling about India. Was it because Congress was elitist, and simply recruited what was left of the Muslim feudal leaders, after the rest had gone to Pakistan? If so, what is the "handle" on the Muslim masses today? Is there some way in which the Muslim can be both religious and Indian (after all, just trying to secularise the problem out of existence doesn't work in India)? The rest of the history - medieval and all that - is important for intellectuals, but that has its limits. If we stay within them, we're back in the same elitist trap, and all our talk is as useless as that of the Congresswallahs. Regards, Mark Tritsch Very important PS: No offence is meant to readers who, being Muslim, may feel they are being spoken of "in the third person". ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sun Dec 10 05:58:04 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 21:58:04 -0800 Subject: Witzel's previous posts : was Re: Indian History & Sangh Parivar (Was: Medieval India) Message-ID: <161227022035.23782.12775522386293273832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the huge delay. I got tied up with other work. Seeing the recent posts on translations, I know you must be very interested in reading his original criticisms agains O'F, so here they are: Vidya ------------------------- Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:44:33 GMT Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU To: Members of the list Subject: W.D.O'Flaherty's Rgveda Since I had been put on the spot, I had promised some examples from W. Doniger O'FLAHERTY's TRANSLATIONS: To be (relatively) quick: one section each from the Rgveda, Jaiminiya Brahmana and Manu in this and the next 2 messages: 1. The Rig Veda. An anthology, Penguin 1981 RV 10.95 (O'Flaherty p.253): VS.1. O's rendering of even the first two paadas is more of a paraphrase than a translation: Haye' jaa'ye ma'nasaa ti'STha ghore va'caaMsi mizraa' kRNavaavahai nu' "My wife turn your heart and mind to me. Stay here, dangerous woman, and let us exchange words." This is rather a stream of unconnected George-Bush-like anacoluths, five sentences in the first line, which reflect the state of mind of Pururavas (love-sick, wandering around stammering, as ZB says). -- O. missed this altogether. (Of course, the discussion of this hymn by K. Hoffmann, Der Injunktiv im Veda, Wiesbaden 1967, p. 199 might have helped.) Thus: "Hey! Wife! Sensibly -- Stand still! Terrible one! -- let us now exchange words!" (haye seems to be the more polite version of: hai, usually addressed to female demons, in AV etc. -- In the RV, Hoffmann thinks, haye means something like "oh, poor me", German: ach) VS 5. raa'ja me viira tanv`as ta'd aasiiH O.: "you were my man, king of my body". The Vedic accent (viira, no accent, is vocative) has not been recognized. Thus: "Then, o man, you were lord of my body." (Geldner and Hoffmann correctly) 12. ca'kran naa'zru vartayad vijaana'n O.: "He will shed tears, sobbing, when he learns" There is no sobbing here, and cakran na (usual Vedic sandhi) is, at best, zleSa (krand "cry"/cakra "wheel")-- but transl.?; and vartayad is Injunctive Present (Hoffm. p. 205). Thus: "(the new born son), he lets roll (down) the tear like a wheel, when he discerns." (The same in Vs 13: no sobbing!) VS15. maa' pra' papto ... na' va'i stra'iNaani sakhyaa'ni santi. O: "do not vanish... There are no friendships with women." In 14 and 15 pra pat refers to killing oneself by jumping down (a cliff), = suicide. Cf. S'B 11.5.8.1 (Hoffm. p. 207 n. 193). *That* is how the wolves would find him... O. denies the possibility of male/female friendship -- perhaps a current local cultural bias -- but certainly not a Rgvedic one. For: Sakhya- is completely misunderstood, as is usual in such cases with Indologists not very conversant with Vedic; it is understood on the basis of Epic/Classical sakhi "friend" and thus the whole point of the apparent saying is missed. A Vedic sakhi is not just any friend (and a woman could be that!) but a socius, the -- by necessity -- MALE member of a sodality such a the vraatya "brotherhood" (therefore Hoffmann: "Gefolgschaftstreue"; on Vraatyas see now H. Falk, Bruderschaft, Freiburg 1986). There simply *are* no female sakhya-. The (common) women of the vraatyas live with them for a while just like Urvazii... --- etc. etc. In this hymn (of 18 stanzas) alone I have counted 43 instances which are wrong or where others would easily disagree. In short: UNRELIABLE and idiosyncratic. ------------------------ Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:08:13 GMT Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU To: Members of the list Subject: W.D.O'Flaherty's Jaiminiya Brahmana Since I had been put on the spot, etc.: here is NO. 2: 2. Jaiminiya Brahmana (W.D. O'Flaherty, Tales of Sex and Violence. Folklore, Sacrifice, and Danger in the Jaiminiya Brahmana. U. of Chicago Press 1985) There are many points I would take issue with in this book (starting from the title and the time limit she gives to JB, 900 BC, without any justification, etc. etc., -- for the moment, see H. Bodewitz, in his introd. to vol. II of his JB translation). And of course, the translation, again is a *re*-translation, for all of O.'s selections had been translated by Hans Oertel and Willem Caland into English/German long before; see her own bibliography. O. merely added a fashionable(?) Freudian coating. I select for commentary: "The rejuvenation of Cyavana" (JB 3.120-29), O. p. 64 sqq.; The trouble again is that O. did not follow up the secondary literature well, not even with the help of the students she mentions. * if, -- she would have noticed that the 19th century "western scorn for the brahmanas" has long been overcome, see K. Hoffmann, Aufsaetze zur Indo-Iranistik,vol. III, ed. S Glauch et al., Wiesbaden 1992, p. 709, -- a 1959 piece, following up Oldenberg and St. Schayer -- and Hoffmann's school at Erlangen, among which my lamented friend, A.Benke, MA thesis Erlangen 1976, and M. Witzel: On Magical Thought in the Veda. Leiden: Universitaire Pers, 1979 (where the literature is given; incidentally, all provided by the editor to B.K. Smith for his article in Indo-Iranian Journal: "The unity of ritual: The place of the domestic sacrifice in Vedic ritualism", IIJ 29,(1986) 79-96, and only partially used in his book "Reflections on resemblance, ritual, and religion." New York-Oxford 1989.-- which again lambasts our predecessors without making clear that their attitudes had long been overcome.) * And, -- if the sec. lit. had been used -- the translation would have turned out much better. In JB 3.120 sqq. (p. 64 sqq.) there are several cases where this would have helped: p. 64 (JB 3.120): O's "the thrice returning departure" versus W. Rau, MSS 39, p. 159, 161 n. 1 tells us that this is part of the trekking procedure of the Vedic Indo-Aryans: Two days travel, one day rest (yoga-kSema). Thus: 3 times a period of double marching days (trih punahprayaaNam). -- NB. see already his book: Staat und Gesellschaft im alten Indien nach den Brahmana-Texten dargestellt, Wiesbaden 1957, again largely unread west of the Atlantic...). Further, the graama, which treks with wild west style wagons, is not a "clan" as O. translates repeatedly but a group of people under a graamanii "trek leader": including brahmins, ksatriyas, vaisyas and others -- for example the dumb carpenter of O. p.107, JB 2.272). The old Cyavana (3.120, p. 65) is not "on his last legs" but a niSThaava, a "spitter" due to loss of front teeth, see again W. Rau, MSS 39, 160-161 I also leave aside her predilection for street language colloquialisms "balls of cowshit, balls of shit" (or: the balls of Indra) or: hanta "hell!" (p. 65, 3.121), normal meaning: "let's do (something)" -- all all cases where Vedic slang is not seen in the Sanskrit but the standard expressions, and I also leave aside the many gaps in the translations where words or whole sentences have been forgotten (e.g.: p. 64 As he was left behind :vaastau; p. 64 His sons have left him: nuunam; etc . etc. -- the last section, JB 3.125, only receives a short paraphrase, not a translation -- but O. does not tell us). I rather move to more serious grammatical business: O. does not know the function of the "future" imperative in -taad (Delbrueck, Altindische Syntax, 1888 (!) p. 263 sqq. Thus in par. 123-124, where a serious of commands is given, they should be tranlated by: do this, AND THEN do that -- the normal meaning of -taad in the Veda. O. always calls the members of Zaaryaata's wagon train (graama) "Zaryaati", misunderstanding the 'first-year Sanskrit' Vrddhi formation in the text which has zaaryaatya- . Difficult sentences, such as: saa yadiitiiyaayayaditi (p. 65, 3.121 end) are simply left out without telling us so. And p. 66 (JB 3.124) abibhede (MSS: abhibede/Talavakara Brahmana parallel: abhipede!!) is not (with Caland) "she could tell them apart" (from bhid???) but a typical JB mistake for *abhipede "she touched him by the arm, baahau)", see K. Hoffmann, MSS 23 (1968!), p., 41-43 = Aufsaetze p. 504-5. Simple question: if *that* much is wrong in just one story (and this is a small selection only!) -- what about the rest of this book and her other translations? Facit: It might have been better to have used the old translations and to have added her Freudian interpretation to them... In sum: The "translation" simply is UNREALIABLE. ---------------------------------- Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:04:41 GMT Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU To: Members of the list Subject: W. Doniger's Manu Since I have been put on the spot, etc. : here is translation no.3: 3. The Laws of Manu (Wendy Doniger, with B.K. Smith) Penguin 1991. Leaving aside the introduction which stresses the novelty of the translation ... and various well-known problems encountered in translation, which, in my opinion at least, have not been solved admirably (cf. the forthc. volume on Translations from Indian languages, HOS, based on the 1994 conference at Harvard, organized by E. Garzilli), I give just one example which shows both wrong (rather, lack of) philological method and lack of simple common sense. Manu 8.134-135, on weights: O. : 8.134: "Six (white) 'mustard seeds' equal one medium-sized 'barley-corn', and three 'barley-corns' make one 'berry'; five 'berries' make a 'bean', sixteen 'beans' a 'gold-piece'. 135. Four 'gold-pieces' equal a 'straw'.... footnote: The 'straw' (pala) thus weighed about 1.33 ounces or 37.76 grams .... might be measurements of gold, silver or copper. <> -- First logic or common sense: Take 3x5x16x4 (960) barley corns and weigh them... and see whether they eqyal any blade of straw. Even if you believe, with Herodotos, in gold digging ants and other wonders in India, I haven't seen Indian (rice/barley) straw of that weight. -- But we forget simple philology, the hand-maiden of any translation that is supposedly better than Buehler's in Victorian English and the recent partial one by Derrett, etc. : The last straw is : If you check pala in the Petersburg dictionary (PW) , or even in its copy, Monier Williams' dict., you see that pala 'straw' is attested only with some lexicographer, who turns out to be Hemacandra (according to the PW, in his AbhidhaanacintaamaNi 1182), that is, and theword apparently is attested only once). If you check the surrounding words, you find palaala in Manu, Mbh. (and Atharvaveda: palaalii) which mean 'straw'; and palada' (AV) of similar meaning. It is clear that Hemacandra got his truncated (hapax!) word pala from from the well known word for RstrawS palaala/ii / palaada' (cf.TURNER 7958) -- while pala (Turner 7952!) always meant 'a certain weight/measure' and also 'meat'.-- Mayrhofer suggests an Indo-European (see: palaava "chaff,grass"), and a Dravidian (Tamil: pul etc.) etymology. Common sense apart, to establish pala 'straw', D. should at least have searched in texts of similar nature and time level before accepting the meaning of 'straw' in Manu. -- And a little less hype would also do: "a landmark translation, the first authoritative translation in this century" (cover); "to offer to more specialized scholars new interpretations of many difficult verses." (p. lxi) --- I doubt it. NB: the translation is based on 2 apparently uncritical editions with 7-9 commentaries (not available at Harvard). While commentators occasionally provide some variant readings found at their time and in their location, we do not know, of course, how these variants are represented in the *UN*critical editions: their very form may be influenced by the choice of the editor... see this Summer's (unfinished) discussion on criticla editions. I have seen such procedures with Kashmiri misreadings in a text edited in N. India). In the present case, of course, we have the 19th century style half-way critical edition with many variaant readings by J. Jolly, representing the Vulgate, and not Bharuci's earlier text. But these two have *not* been used as the base text. Also, D. does not take real issue with BharuciUs variants. This is the only OLDER commentary we have; incidentally, at the instance where I once had to check Bharuci against the oldest Manu MS ( written under Govindracandra of Kanauj,c.1150 AD), the MS already followed the Vulgate and not Bharuci. Good reason thus to take Bh. seriously -- and his text is easily available, even in translation. In view of all of this, I wonder indeed whether D's translation would have been accepted in the Harvard Oriental Series rather than in Penguin (p. lxviii). Finally, note that all 3 translations are RE-translations. Mistakes of the type mentioned above could easily have been avoided if the work of our 19th century predecessors (and contemporaries!) had been consulted more carefully -- instead of following the current fashion of lambasting them for various / supposed prejudices/attitudes of their times (what about <> 20th century attitudes? The critics have 5 years to go before they are in for equally severe criticism of their 20th century prejudices/attitudes!) Last point: Looking at the various new translations that have appeared in the past decade or so: Why always to RE-translate something done *several* times over already --- and why not to take up one of the zillion UN-translated Skt. texts? Much more difficult of course... From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Sun Dec 10 06:11:36 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 22:11:36 -0800 Subject: Witzel's previous posts : was Re: Indian History & Sangh Message-ID: <161227022037.23782.4786686504785475545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops, mea culpa. The previous post was meant to be mailed to one person only, and got sent to the list by mistake. Apologies. Vidyasankar From rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU Sun Dec 10 05:25:54 1995 From: rkornman at pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robin Kornman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 23:25:54 -0600 Subject: W.D.O'Flaherty's Rgveda Message-ID: <161227022033.23782.7879277664772582043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You know, I have to take Witzel'word that O'Flaherty has made mistakes. I just don't know Sanskrit very well. But his criticism of the lines below scares me, because I have and will give translations which vary as much from the literal text. This is done and must be done to produce a decent read. It is a time honored custom among translators--- particularly where you know that somebody else has already done the very literal translation. I would suggeest that Witzel survey current translations of Homer if he wishes to see what is considered in Western classical circles as permissable interpretiveness in translation. Let's take his examples below: > > > >VS.1. O's rendering of even the first two paadas is more of a paraphrase >than a translation: > >Haye' jaa'ye ma'nasaa ti'STha ghore >va'caaMsi mizraa' kRNavaavahai nu' > >"My wife turn your heart and mind to me. Stay here, dangerous woman, and >let us exchange words." > >This is rather a stream of unconnected George-Bush-like anacoluths, five >sentences in the first line, which reflect the state of mind of Pururavas >(love-sick, wandering around stammering, as ZB says). -- O. missed this >altogether. (Of course, the discussion of this hymn by K. Hoffmann, >Der Injunktiv im Veda, Wiesbaden 1967, p. 199 might have helped.) > >Thus: >"Hey! Wife! Sensibly -- Stand still! Terrible one! -- let us now exchange >words!" Witzel's transltion is hard to read and doesn't make a great deal of sense. Oh, he justifies it by saying that the original is actually five distinct sentences. But since when has the word "Sensibly" been a sentence anyone ever uttered or would utter? "Stand still" is a good interpretive translation. Better perhaps than "Stay here." Even if I do not agree with all of O'Flaherty's choices, they are legitimate if her job was to produce a readable translation with some sense of flow. Now, the following remark gives the impression that O has missed something she would have caught if she had read the secondary literature as well as Witzel. But, as a matter of fact, Witzel's translation ("Hey") does not seem to reflect what special thing he knows. I've got the same problem with almost a hundred Tibetan exclamations which have no precise translations in English. Sometimes I translate them as "hey" or "Hey you." But sometimes I leave them out, because the context won't take a "hey." In this spot "Hey" sounds terrible. "Hey wife!" Does that sound convincing? It doesn't have a sense of verse rhythms and it doesn't sound like speech either. It just sounds like a translation: >(haye seems to be the more polite version of: hai, usually addressed to >female demons, in AV etc. -- In the RV, Hoffmann thinks, haye means >something like "oh, poor me", German: ach) > Or look at this one: >VS 5. raa'ja me viira tanv`as ta'd aasiiH > >O.: "you were my man, king of my body". >The Vedic accent (viira, no accent, is vocative) has not been >recognized. >Thus: >"Then, o man, you were lord of my body." >(Geldner and Hoffmann correctly) O's translation is as good as Geldner and Hoffman's. She could have known viira is vocative and still have decided not to translate it into the vocative. Becuase "You were my man" sounds cool. It sounds like something somebody might say. And "king of my body" has a lot of punch. If O's translation were the first in history of this text, then she might have felt herself forced to prove she knew viira was vocative. But she made an acceptable talk here. or this one: >12. ca'kran naa'zru vartayad vijaana'n > >O.: "He will shed tears, sobbing, when he learns" > >There is no sobbing here, and cakran na (usual Vedic sandhi) is, at >best, zleSa (krand "cry"/cakra "wheel")-- but transl.?; and vartayad is >Injunctive Present (Hoffm. p. 205). Thus: > >"(the new born son), he lets roll (down) the tear like a wheel, when he >discerns." Witzel telling us that the word "sobbing" does not literally occur in the original does not shock me out of my shoes. I assume that O interpreted this line as being a description of a person sobbing and therefore used the word. It scans well in the line. ON the other hand, the expression "when he discerns" communicates nothing to me. Think about it. What is this line trying to say? Is it trying to say that the person who will cry has not yet developed proper discernment, but when he does, then he will cry indeed? I don't think so. The word "discern" in English is reserved for situations where some other kind of cognition has been going on and now a sharper, more precise, more acurate one has occured. One was in a general state of failing to make an important distinction and now has changed to a state of discernment. In other words, if I were to take Witzel's translation seriously, it would give the line a very odd meaning. But there is little danger of my doing that, because the strange style of translaterese tells me, nay warns me that I am in the midst of a dense, scholarly translation. Everybody will speak with the same voice. Everybody will sound like a Sanskrit professor. Now, the next critique is a mixed bag. When O says "do not vanish" I do not understand what that could mean. How do people vanish? Witzel says that it should be something like "don't kill yourself." Okay, that sounds like a good criticism. But his long explanation of why "there are no friendships with women" does not make sense, because even if what he says is true, how would it change the translation? Would the correct translation be, "Remember, women may not be members of a male sodality?" Or maybe the right translation is "There are no women in a brotherhood?" O has decided that the remark, whatever it meant, was a sexist remark. Witzel is disturbed by this interpretation. Me, too. But if she is wrong, the correct critique is to argue that that kind of sexism is not the case in this text. The linguistic argument Witzel uses doesn't prove to me that O did not know what she was doing when she made her choices. >(The same in Vs 13: no sobbing!) > >VS15. maa' pra' papto ... na' va'i stra'iNaani sakhyaa'ni santi. > >O: "do not vanish... There are no friendships with women." > > >In 14 and 15 pra pat refers to killing oneself by jumping down (a cliff), >= suicide. Cf. S'B 11.5.8.1 (Hoffm. p. 207 n. 193). *That* is how the >wolves would find him... > >O. denies the possibility of male/female friendship -- perhaps a current >local cultural bias -- but certainly not a Rgvedic one. For: >Sakhya- is completely misunderstood, as is usual in such cases with >Indologists not very conversant with Vedic; it is understood on the basis >of Epic/Classical sakhi "friend" and thus the whole point of the apparent >saying is missed. >A Vedic sakhi is not just any friend (and a woman could be that!) but a >socius, the -- by necessity -- MALE member of a sodality such a the >vraatya "brotherhood" (therefore Hoffmann: "Gefolgschaftstreue"; on >Vraatyas see now H. Falk, Bruderschaft, Freiburg 1986). There simply >*are* no female sakhya-. The (common) women of the vraatyas live with >them for a while just like Urvazii... Witzel concludes by saying that he found 43 errors in one 18 stanza hymn. Well, if he counts every non-literal translation as an error, then of course he'll come up with a high figure like that. Now, if he knew epic Tibetan as well as I do, he could find as many mistakes in any epic song I translated. And if I knew that Witzel were going to judge my translation by such standards, I could certainly translate it so that he would find no errors. But I would be tied hand and feet by my fear of such readers. I would have to produce a translation that made the Veda sound as if it were written by a college professor. Everybody would sound the same. It is so hard to translate the voice of a text, particularly if there is a shifting voice. You have to identify the voice and style of a passage and then evoke that voice by using suitable language from a range of voices available in contemporary English. You must know when a line is conversational, when it is uttered in a grandiloquent style, when it is simple and ordinary language, when the meter is important, when the wordplay is important. When you should ignore those factors and just get the literal meaning right. Now,when the meaning of a text is seriously in question, then I think we should begin with a literal translation and wait for the next generation to do the good translation. But in this day of electronic texts, I think it would be even better to produce for the benefit of academic scholars a literal translation that could sit on some www page. That text would have the footnotes which explain each translation decision one made. Then one could go and publish the good stuff for the larger readership. In any case, I personally am not ready to say with Witzel that O's translation is simply "unreliable and idiosyncratic." For then most of the really useful modern translations of Tibetan texts must be called the same. Robin Kornman From dasa at msn.com Sun Dec 10 02:03:20 1995 From: dasa at msn.com (Raymond Crawford) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 02:03:20 +0000 Subject: old/new translations Message-ID: <161227022055.23782.1216645018193072921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My two cents, if possible. I am uneducated, everything I think I know or have learnt is from reading. If what I am reading is factually incorrect, then how can my learning be of any use whatsoever? It is all very well to say read the translations, but each translation, most of the time, is not a translation but an interpretation coloured by the translators own beliefs. For example, just read any number of translations of the Bhagavad-geeta and see how many of them are the same. Perhaps, for you, the educated, such differences are of no meaning, but for the uneducated such as myself, they mean a heck of a lot. In other words, if translations are not correct then what is the use of them? Raymond From conlon at u.washington.edu Sun Dec 10 18:16:01 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 10:16:01 -0800 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022042.23782.17506996815391362916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is sometimes observed that America has no real problem with race because of individuals in high places, such as General Colin Powell. Colleague J. B. Sharma responds to my comment by noting that India has its share of Muslims in high places. I am sorry to say I think that misses the point, and very much like many white Americans, suggests that Indians who happen to be Muslim should be damn grateful. Sharma's shift to invoke "permanent population displacements" is a rather transparent rhetorical device to renew the assault upon the undifferentiated identity called "Muslim" and to invoke the undifferentiated identity "Hindu" as a having a special claim to status of victim. Gary Tartakov's post (just received) strikes me as an eloquent and adequate comment on this. Perhaps it is again time to return the list to the blood sports of indologists vs. comparative religionists, the PC-wallahs vs. the Mac-wallahs,... Frank Conlon From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sun Dec 10 11:09:49 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 11:09:49 +0000 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022039.23782.2198350992747651850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frank Conlon wrote : Many of these people have shared with me their experiences of personal humiliation and discrimination at the hands of the "majority"--and at the hands of the Congress-dominated "secular state". And one or two have read a bit about American history, and recognize that the ironic similarities of the ideas about "mixed loyalties" and "breeding like bunnies" applied to them when compared to the racist and nativist ideas that some white protestant Americans have routinely applied to immigrants from Ireland, from Southern and Eastern Europe, from Mexico, from the "third world", and, of course to African-Americans. Hate and fear and discrimination do not exist in abstract, reified conditions--their reality can only be refracted in the thoughts and actions of individual human beings. It is unavoidable, and it is necessary, that we discourse about "Hindus" and "Muslims" etc., but that ought not be the only perspective we keep in our vision. Frank F. Conlon ---------------------------- What you say is true, and there is no doubt that the Hindu "majority" has inmical views of the Muslim "minority" which leads in instances of discrimination in everyday life. However there is still enough of a semblance of civility that life goes on for most people of all religious persuasions as usual in India and there are no permanent population displacements. On the other side of the coin in ALL of the Muslim majority areas of the subcontinent (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir) the minorities (mostly Hindus) have been harrased, molested, and just plain driven out by terror. This is ethnic cleansing, and is in progress as we speak. Three hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have been driven out of their homes with little hope of ever returning. These are folks who have undergone a heroic struggle since the 1400's to preserve their ancient culture against virulent onslaught of Turkish despots. In 1971, millions of terrified Hindus streamed into India when special army units marked the Hindu homes with spray paint to be identified for unspeakable atrocity. So, on one had the Hindu polity discriminates against Muslims. At the same time it allows for Muslims to participate in Government, Industry, Academia, Military, Judiciary etc at the highest levels. On the other hand Muslim polity on the sub-continent has simply driven away the minority the choice "convert, flee or die". This has been going on for centuries. Is is any wonder that the once healthy minority populations in Pakistan and the Kashmir valley are now 0.5% and rapidly shrinking in Bangladesh ? The minority population in India is stable and increasing. Does all of this say anything to us ? So I do agree, we must not keep only one perspective in our vision of the sub-continent. Regards, J.B. Sharma From tart at iastate.edu Sun Dec 10 17:57:34 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 11:57:34 -0600 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022040.23782.5056205064238374958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Sharma's catalogue of real horrors should not be ignored. I won't ignore it. The comparison of Indian national development over the past half century is here shown to be superior to that in Pakistan in regard to its treatment of its citizens. We must all be happy about this difference in India and appaled at the situation in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But what is the point here? To laud the healthy development of Indian polity or to suggest that it is now time to get even and sink into the sewer of communalism that has characterized some of its neighbors? Defence of minority interests are as important to a democracy as rule of the majority. As important. And reciting Muslim horror stories when defence of Muslim interests is advocated seems to attack that principle. If our Muslim cousins need as much training in pluralism as our Brahmanical and Christian cousins, we should further the task, not separate them out for special treatment as the creators of horors shared by many. From KHB12400 at niftyserve.or.jp Sun Dec 10 03:19:00 1995 From: KHB12400 at niftyserve.or.jp (Yasuhiro Okazaki) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 12:19:00 +0900 Subject: Vyomavatii's Mysore Manuscript Message-ID: <161227022031.23782.11067293206318493240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I ask dear members of Indology. We ( I and my friends who are studying Nyaaya-Vaizesika in Japan) have heard there is a manuscript of Vyomavatii which is called Myosore Manuscript and havn't been used in publication. It have been refered to by Prof. Halbfass and some Europian scholars. Studying early VaizeSika, I and my friend eagar to see that manuscript. But no one of us don't know how to get its copy or microfilm. If anyone knows how to get its copy or microfilm, Please tell me the way of getting. Best regards Yasuhiro Okazaki 545 Arima, Chiyoda-cho, Yamagata-gun, Hiroshima, Japan 731- 15 From tilak at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Dec 10 19:09:37 1995 From: tilak at alcor.concordia.ca (SHRINIVAS TILAK) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 14:09:37 -0500 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022046.23782.11217408607656253171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The lively debate between Conlon and Tartakov on the one hand and J.B.Sharma and Peter (?) Lusthaus on the other, has been useful and instructive (so far). To put it in a proper perspective we need to analyze the condition of the Hindu minority in Muslim countries. Perhaps a beginning could be made by generating a bibliography of studies that already exist on this topic. Shrinivas Tilak On Sun, 10 Dec 1995, Frank Conlon wrote: > > It is sometimes observed that America has no real problem with race > because of individuals in high places, such as General Colin Powell. > > Colleague J. B. Sharma responds to my comment by noting that India has > its share of Muslims in high places. I am sorry to say I think that > misses the point, and very much like many white Americans, suggests that > Indians who happen to be Muslim should be damn grateful. > > Sharma's shift to invoke "permanent population displacements" is a rather > transparent rhetorical device to renew the assault upon the undifferentiated > identity called "Muslim" and to invoke the undifferentiated identity > "Hindu" as a having a special claim to status of victim. > > Gary Tartakov's post (just received) strikes me as an eloquent and > adequate comment on this. > > Perhaps it is again time to return the list to the blood sports of indologists > vs. comparative religionists, the PC-wallahs vs. the Mac-wallahs,... > > > Frank Conlon > > > From LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu Sun Dec 10 23:51:39 1995 From: LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu (LUSTHAUS at macalstr.edu) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 17:51:39 -0600 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022048.23782.6999683043567220524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani asks: >Are you saying that Hinduism IS caste? Not exactly. I am saying that for the last 2500 years or so, at least, Hinduism has been more about Varna, jaati, sa.mskaaras, etc., than about Brahman, aatman, or Vi.s.nu's marital problems. I am not saying that Hinduism can't exist without caste; but I am saying that making foundational changes in the Indian social system(s) will profoundly and radically alter Hinduism as well, and that these changes are not coming without a certain amount of pain and disorientation. Dan Lusthaus Macalester College P.S. I agree fully with Frank Conlon's remarks about the need to appreciate the Indian Muslim perspectives in all this as well. My comments until now have taken the turn they have because it seemed that it was not the Muslim perspective that had been ignored, but the Hindu perspectives. The whole conversation would have taken a healthier tone if, from the start, we had aired the full gamut of views, rather than attack poor Mr. Sharma for trying to appreciate the forces behind current Hindu revivalism. From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sun Dec 10 23:42:58 1995 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 18:42:58 -0500 Subject: Vyomavatii's Mysore Manuscript Message-ID: <161227022044.23782.450182973741494731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 10 Dec 1995 03:26:23 GMT you wrote about a MS in Mysore that you would be interested in seeing. I am going to be in Mysore, at the Oriental Manuscripts Library, in about four weeks, specifically to chase up some manuscript microfilm orders of my own. If you can give me full details of the MS you are interested in, I can ask the librarian about it, and order a copy for you. Perhaps we can correspond privately about this. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk Dr Dominik Wujastyk From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sun Dec 10 21:00:32 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 21:00:32 +0000 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022051.23782.1015550213051352611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary Tartakov wrote : Mr. Sharma's catalogue of real horrors should not be ignored. I won't ignore it. The comparison of Indian national development over the past half century is here shown to be superior to that in Pakistan in regard to its treatment of its citizens. We must all be happy about this difference in India and appaled at the situation in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But what is the point here? To laud the healthy development of Indian polity or to suggest that it is now time to get even and sink into the sewer of communalism that has characterized some of its neighbors? Defence of minority interests are as important to a democracy as rule of the majority. As important. And reciting Muslim horror stories when defence of Muslim interests is advocated seems to attack that principle. If our Muslim cousins need as much training in pluralism as our Brahmanical and Christian cousins, we should further the task, not separate them out for special treatment as the creators of horors shared by many. ------------- The point is... to map out the communal sewer completely ... and to keep it from constantly spilling into the drinking trough of civil life on the subcontinent. Really, it is not a matter of a comparative analysis of India and Pakistan, but to point to the organic graft of the polity, history and culture of the subcontinent. Is it any wonder that communal happenings in one country inevitably lead to mirroring in the others ? To disarm the virulence of communalism is the panacea for the well being of all humans who live in this region, no matter which 'undifferentiated' label their psyches are tattooed with. Academic consensus of exact history of medevial India has the power to divest the basis for communal movements based on false premesis. This is not going to happen if the historical baggage is not comletely clear and accepted by all who live in the region. The heros of one group remain the villians for the other. How can a common vision of a future be created if there is a schizophrenic vision of the past ? Most Muslim leaders in the sub- continent will flatly deny the frenzy of temple destruction that took place in India saying that the tolerence of Islam disallows it. They say that the scribes who report all of this activity were plain wrong. I fail to understand the imposition of this interpretation if we have no more than the words of the witnesses to go by. Maybe Heinrich Zimmer was a Hindu fundamentalist in observing that no example of (pre-Islamic) Hindu architecture stands today in North India. And so was Will Durant in observing that the Turkish invasion of India is the most destructive event in history. The popular culture of Muslims in the sub-continent see this as a time of great glory, and the popular Hindu culture has a amnesia of these times. This is fertile ground for demagouges of every variety possible. Some see the perpetuation of this amnesia necessary for the protection of Muslims in India. I fear that this outlook is horribly flawed in that it is certain to have the opposite effect, much to the detriment of all. Suppression breeds uncontrollable demons. If both communities cannot have a rational discourse to arrive at a common vision of the past, there is not a basis for shaking hands, and looking towards a common future of peace and prosperity for both. There has been a lot of suffering by all in the region. I disagree with Gary Tartakov that in defence of the Muslim minority in India we (Hindus and Christians) should train the Muslims in pluralism and doing otherwise we mark them as targets. This embodies a patronising attitude on the Muslims the likes of which I would hesitate to impose on any group. The reform must come with the Muslim community itself, and goodness only knows, there is enough native intellectual and spiritual capital there to make it happen. There have been may voices of reason and reconciliation from the Muslim community, but are always drowned out by those who vocally insist that reform in a perfected system is an anathema and expressly verboten. Any suggestions to get around this bottleneck ? So where do we go from here ? If indeed the past millenia was not a time of hapless disenfranchisement of Hindus from the driving seat of their political and societal destiny, then the reasons for their resentment are completely invalid, and they indeed are a vile folk. Then this subject is unworthy of discussion. In the meanwhile the sub- continent hurtles towards a senseless nuclear confrontation propelled by reasons unclear to most people who live there. An analysis of the situation continues to be riddled by the same old cliches and semantic static. Some academics will keep wondering, 'what is the point', and keep insisting that medevial Indian history has no bearing on the current situation in the region ... Until we all wake up one morning to horror, and then we can wonder 'why?'. Sincerely, J.B. Sharma From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Mon Dec 11 09:26:56 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 03:26:56 -0600 Subject: An Indian-Muslim's Ethnie Message-ID: <161227022057.23782.10186529868914469231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Important concerns about causes of communal problems in India have been brought to our attention. Looking at these objectively is like walking the edge of a sharp sword. It is difficult to stay balanced. (Is this balancing act what we call "PC"?) The problems are painful and complex and are a totally all-consuming part of everyday life for Mustafa and Hussain and Fatima in Rampur or Kanpur or Allahabad. The average Muslim on the streets in UP, Bihar or Bombay, is poor and probably fairly uneducated. They follow the lead of their Muslim leaders, hoping that this guidance will help them not to be "swallowed up in a Hindu India." Unfortunately, much of this leadership is urging them on in the wrong direction.(IMHO) Indian Muslim leaders need to help their constituents feel like part of the Indian experience and appreciate the fact that they are Indians as well as Muslims. This happens far too seldom and such enlightened leadership is silenced for fear of a fatwa. No long ago, an elected official from Kerala, a Muslim, was asked to participate in a ceremony commemorating the opening of some government facility. As part of the opening ritual he was asked to light a candle. He refused, saying this was against his religion. He was "not a Hindu and therefore could not light a candle." Now, lighting a candle before cutting the ribbon is part of INDIA'S heritage and tradition. . . why would he refuse, unless he wanted to send a message to the Muslims in Rampur and Kanpur that they should refuse to be an integral, participant part of India?! Nowhere in the Koran is the lighting of candles proscribed! (correct me if I'm wrong here) Why not light a candle? They're lit all the time at Sufi shrines. Unfortunately, this type separatist and confrontive Muslim would undoubtedly say that Sufism is a form of Islam polluted by its contact with Hinduism (really Zoroatrianism contact came first before Sufis ever arrived in Sindh. . .). The point is, what kind of message is this poor leather worker in Rampur getting? His leadership is so far to the right--they make Khomeini look like Santa Claus! Like it or not, there's a big point that is being made by JB Sharma and others about looking at Indian History without the blinders concerning what is termed the Muslim period. What that history were just history, such as Algebra is Algebra. . . but history is also a story. Though it's prone to be manipulated, distorted and appropriated, we should not create it or delete it but face it squarely. How much more difficult to deal with the problems of Medieval Indian history than the discourse on the slave trade in the Americas! (Who would dare defend such human misery! There is a tight consensus on that point of history.) However, in the case of Indian Medieval history, this consensus does not obtain. I don't mean to sound like a Sangh Parivarvali, which I am not. I detest their Muslim bashing and I think in general that they can tend to be a rather humorless lot who react strongly to constructive criticism. Their vitriolic Uma Bharati style communalist discourse will not help India nor their cause. But, some of the points they make about the mis-steps in direction that Indian has taken ARE valid. The obvious problems of any discourse of "Civic Culture" in India are seemingly overwhelming. The inherent cleavages between perceptions of India's past, the role of the various ethnic/ religious groups and how they acted upon history and upon one another, are so completely at odds that a reconciliation in the interpretation and reconstruction of historical evidence is, to say the least, very challenging. The divergences between Hindu and Muslim historical memories and their civilizations' responses and responsibilities are diametrically opposed. Almost any reading of India's "Glorious Past" could be construed as communalism depending on who was reading it. The history of Islam's arrival in India and the "Triumph of the Mogul Empire" is a proud and noble story to a Muslim, but to many Hindus it is a story of rape and pillage. Conversely, the story of Hindu philosophic traditions and their powerful contribution to human thought and the "Triumph of Indic Civilization" could be an affront to a Muslim who sees Hinduism as an idolatrous and pagan challenge to the one true God and the "Islamic invasions" as wars of liberation. It is obvious that just to teach "national civic culture" or even a basic history class in a country such as India, divided as she is by such sharp distinctions in perceptions of the past, is a complex issue not easily resolved. As we discuss these issues from the comfort of our computer terminals, we must not, as Dr. Conlon reminded us, forget that Muslims in India feel the prejudice of Hindus everyday. However, categorically rejecting the culture in which they live is not going to help them overcome that prejudice. Being an integral part of India should not imply that one is somehow being un-Muslim. That is down right preposterous. It provides the sort of negative stereotyping that serves as a powerful rhetorical tool for the right wing of the Sangh Parivar propaganda machine. Islamic leaders in India cling to their out-dated medieval Shari'a laws which are so conservative that they are no longer even used most Islamisized countries. If India is to move forward towards pluralism and freedom and justice for all (Amen) then the leaders of her largest minority need to be forward thinking and promote the fact that the form of Islam practiced in India is unique and therefore indigenous. They should extol their brethren to take pride in this very Indianess of their lives and culture and the beautiful influence that centuries of interaction of Islam in India has produced. How will they rise above the communal divisions if they refuse to light a symbolic candle for their homeland? I guess the next generation will tell and they are a very mixed lot. If the valid points made by moderate "Hindu Nationalists" are not considered, I am afraid that the more radical elements will prevail. This could be a cruel period of Indian history and an opportunity for productive debate would have been lost, along with countless lives. The problems demand a dialogue in diversity, not demagoguery. Hindu "fundamentalism" or "revivalism" is among other things a reaction. They want all Indians, regardless of religious affiliation to "light a candle for India." Yvette C. Rosser ***************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ G R E E T I N G S F O R A _/M\_ ,,,,"X",,,, /''''''\ %%%%%% :{ ^?^ }: ! *?* ! \ ~ / *\ @ /* Y V H A P P Y A N D P R O S P E R O U S N E W Y E A R ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***************** From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Dec 11 05:12:56 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 05:12:56 +0000 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022064.23782.11927992259989488094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Meanwhile, back on this planet, in Jambudvipa: As I recall, the %ge of Muslims in India has grown from about 8-9% in 1947, to about 12% now. Even assuming that a relative increase in %ge of Muslims is a "problem" (itself an obnoxious and questionable assumption), the above numbers don't indicate a very serious problem (3-4% in 50 years). Further, migration from Bangladesh probably accounts for a big part of that increase. In another 50 years, Indian population is likely to have stabilized. Even if the %ge of Muslims has grown to, say, 20%, that doesn't outnumber the rest of us Kama-Sutra-readin', fast-breedin', Brahmin-feedin', Manu-Smriti-heedin' Hindu dudes and dudettes. The sky is not falling. This is not the end of civilization as we know it. Also, have some decency and don't talk of our Muslim fellow-citizens as a "problem." Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Mon Dec 11 15:40:05 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 07:40:05 -0800 Subject: An Indian-Muslim's Ethnie Message-ID: <161227022067.23782.8183849457878611373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Yvette C. Rosser wrote: > Islamic leaders in > India cling to their out-dated medieval Shari'a laws which are so > conservative that they are no longer even used most Islamisized countries. > If India is to move forward towards pluralism and freedom and justice for > all (Amen) then the leaders of her largest minority need to be forward > thinking and promote the fact that the form of Islam practiced in India is > unique and therefore indigenous. Is not the revival and implementation of Shari'a laws, and thus the Islamicization of the state infofar as possible, a central concern of the Islamic radicalism that has spread through the Muslim world of late? If so, we can surely *not* expect India's Muslim leaders to be immune from this trend of thought. Have any studies been done of the influence of Islamic radicalism in India? Lance ----------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu ----------------------- From adsood at midway.uchicago.edu Mon Dec 11 16:09:01 1995 From: adsood at midway.uchicago.edu (aditya dev sood) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 10:09:01 -0600 Subject: translation, meaning, language, laughter (silent) Message-ID: <161227022069.23782.12150784799559701941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the recent drumroll from a learned professor at Harvard: The grammar may be wrong*The grammar may be wrong*The grammar may be wrong but that has less to do with the distinction between a 'good' (=literal?) translation and a poor (=flowing) translation, and more to do with the aporia between languages. Demanding that words and phrases be translated in the same tense and order as in the original is impossible. Why? because 1) no two languages have the same field of tenses, nor the same sorts of gradiations between them 2) on occasion it is entirely indeterminate whether a given word is an adjective or noun or other part of speech 3) A given word, even should we (who?) collectively agree tranlates as water into English, does not face resistance from the same field of synonyms and associations, as the original word, whether, pan, tanni, vaari or eau. (with thanks to Dipesh Chakrabarty). Take, for example a translation of 'aap' from Hindi into the 'vous' of Francais: these correspond more closely than any approximation we could think of in English -- YET WE COULD NEVER MATCH THE EXACT TONAL REGISTER OF THE ORIGINAL -- and we would fail to catch sarcasm, deference, formality, or arrogance. There is simply no way to force languages to be transparent to each other, for their internal lucidity is enabled only by their opacity to systems outside of them. One may read the obscure writer named de Saussure, Ferdinand, for the knowledge that languages are arbitrary, and not trunks on a tree. No phrase or sentence fragment in Sanskrit 'means' anything in English. All translations are acts of fracture and reconstitution, wherein the foreign thought-sound is domesticated. Certain 'gross' aspects of the original, for example its polemic are easily transmitted, and through gifted translator and through clumsy footnotes, on occasion 'subtle' elements like humor, irony and context may be reconstituted into the NEW text. It is NEVER the same text. For the sake of our listserver please see Walter Benjamin, 'On the Task of the Translator,' in Illuminations. How to communicate that arguing about a translation is akin to arguing about a line in a novel? -- you may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. One's only effective response is to write another reflection of the world, or in this case, of the text (of which you BELIEVE this is the translation, for how do you even know...? Is that too much for right now?) 'Learn the error of language, O grammarian,' it has been said. Language lies; all language leads away from the tatva of the world, yet it is only through language that we approach brahma. Correct language equals meaning no more than pi = 3.15926..., as was so positively proposed. ityevam vakyapadiyam. And even if language is deceitful, it is hardest on those who fail its first test: It demands that one respect one's interlocutors, especially one's polemical adversaries. For every time one invokes one's adversary, her name resonates through the ether as a mantra only to make her stronger. With the season's greetings shivering down my spine I hope to remain, yours warmly, Aditya Dev Sood University of Chicago. ps: I don't know about you guys, but as a sanskrit grad student i'd just be tickled pink if my professor were to jokingly point out that the cover of a book depicted a commentary (imagine!) instead of the text itself. In fact i'm still laughing now... From clopez at husc.harvard.edu Mon Dec 11 15:44:44 1995 From: clopez at husc.harvard.edu (Carlos Lopez) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 10:44:44 -0500 Subject: Robin Kornman on Witzel's comments on.... Message-ID: <161227022071.23782.390253518102260428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Birgit Kellner wrote: > Robin Kornman wrote: > > > But his criticism of the lines below > > scares me, because I have and will give translations which vary as much from > > the literal text. This is done and must be done to produce a decent read. It > > is a time honored custom among translators--- particularly where you know > > that somebody else has already done the very literal translation. > > In this statement, as well as in his remarks on Witzel's remarks, R. Korman > seems to presuppose that the relevant criterion applied by Witzel was > whether the translation is literal or not. To me, that seems off the mark. But if I recall correctly, the relevant criterion of the person who initially posed the question about the value of Prof. OFlaherty's translation was that literal translation from the point of view of an expert. I don't recall that person asking about the value of "popuplar" translation or about the sense of flow or any such matter to which the discussion following Witzel's comments have turned to. The initial request seems to have been forgotten and everyone has since taken a defensive position on Prof. Oflaherty's translation. Isn't it our job as scholars to be pointing out such problems so that they can be worked out and corrected in future work? It is a different thing to ask what the value and usefulness is of this translation for introductory classes. > > > O's translation is as good as Geldner and Hoffman's. She could have known > > viira is vocative and still have decided not to translate it into the > > vocative. Becuase "You were my man" sounds cool. > > Forgive my bluntness, but this is nonsense. When one uses a vocative, one > does so in order to address somebody - that's the intention of the speaker, > and that is the function of the text. When the translation misses out this > function, it's a bad translation. Certainly, "you were my man" and "oh man" > are presupposing different intentions and meaning different things, no? Ditto on this point. Sounding cool is not an excuse for being wrong. > > >And "king of my body" has a lot of punch. If O's > > translation were the first in history of this text, then she might have felt > > herself forced to prove she knew viira was vocative. But she made an > > acceptable talk here. > > Acceptable to whom? To somebody who wishes to read ancient Indian text > up-dated into easily readable present-day American English, with lots of > punch and cool flows? Ditto. A translation, a difficult process, can not sacrifice correctness for the sake of coolness. > > > On the whole, I would like to have Robin Kornman's opinion on what other > criteria, apart from "readability", a good translation should meet, and how > exactly this "readability" is to be understood. So far, I can see little > more in it than an excess in down-grading the beauty and poetic complexity > of a text to the not necessarily ugly, but context-unfit language of a > comic-book or a contemporary American airplane-novel. This is indeed a valid point of discussion. Maybe this group should put it's colletive effort into a discussion and conversation on the issue of translation, which everyone seems to have been indirectly addressing after Witzel's comments as a sort of defense of Prof. OFlaherty's translation. Sincerely Carlos Lopez PhD Candidate Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University clopez at fas.harvard.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Dec 11 11:18:23 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 11:18:23 +0000 Subject: WEB pages updates Message-ID: <161227022059.23782.10235136723723434623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold, Thank you for the Web and telnet pointers for the Goettingen University Library. I have now added these to the INDOLOGY web page /libraries. I have also taken the opportunity to reoganize the libraries page to make it clearer, as well as adding a link to the Karlsruhe service for searching severa German catalogues from a single menu. Best wishes, Dominik -- > Dominik, > in connection with your message on WEB pages updates I should like to > mention that you can also access the OPAC of Goettingen University > Library. > > The WWW address is: > > http:/www.uni-goettingen.de/~sub/homepage.htm > > or telnet to: > > opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de > (alternative no.: 134.76.163.12) > > username: opc for exit enter: stp > > (whenever ENTER is required, use ENTER, not RETURN!) > > > or by phone via modem: > > (Germany) (0)551 / 39-9911 > > > Although the Tuebingen collection is by far larger, especially for the > post-war period, in which Tuebingen has functioned as the federal > Special Collections Library (Sondersammelgebietsbibliothek) for South > Asia, Goettingen might also be of interest. > > In theory, the Goettingen OPAC comprises ALL holdings, except for the > period from 1945 to 1977. HOWEVER: the pre-1945 data were copied from > the old folio catalogue by temporary staff untrained in Indian > languages, and have not been checked against the books. Needless to > add, there are a number of mistakes and inconsistencies. And another > qualification: the old series (Bibliotheca Indica, Bombay SPS, ChSS > Kashi SS, etc.) have only been partly converted. > > Nevertheless, everybody is welcome to give it a try. I would be very > interested to hear what you think of it. > > Regards > > Reinhold > > > > Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek > 37070 Goettingen > Germany > Phone: 0551/395283 From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Mon Dec 11 14:02:20 1995 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 14:02:20 +0000 Subject: Saivism in Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227022053.23782.5415357194802892813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends In connection with my work on Siva temple priests in Maharashtra, I am interested in studying the spread of Saivism in Maharashtra from Ancient times to this date and I would be grateful if people could provide me with book and journal references. Thank you very much in advance. Please include Karnataka as well. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Dec 11 13:32:39 1995 From: tritsch at MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Mark F. Tritsch) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 14:32:39 +0100 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022060.23782.12431495885863310156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9th December Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Mark F. Tritsch wants to know what the real problems are. It was hard for me to > tell whether his characterization of what was supposed to be the typical Hindu > man/woman in the street to the growing disproportion in the Indian population, > or Indian Muslims cheering for Pakistan, was somewhat ironic or heartfelt. I was reporting the facts - no irony, no prejudice, no condescension. These opinions are held by very large numbers of Hindus in India, and are readily expressed by them. Probably we all know that. I think the Hindu/Muslim conflict displays the same interplay between current genuine concerns and historical context that can be found in many cases of ethnic strife. Muslims DO have a much higher mean birth rate and Pakistan IS a threat and some Indian Muslims DO put their own loyalty in doubt. It is a reasonable question whether the historical context would be so important if these current concrete concerns were not present. > Those typical concerns, as characterized by Mr. Tritsch seem somewhat > dismissive, as if they are just being silly bigots, while the *real* problems > are Muslim poverty, etc. What about Hindu poverty? Whose being dismissive? Certainly not I! Perhaps these concerns appear so unmentionably primitive, that one can only talk about them in dismissive terms. Well, I don't think so. And isn't that tit-for-tat argumentation (Muslim poverty / Hindu poverty)? > Let's take the example of Hindus feeling some discomfort because their > co-nationals are rooting for a rival country. That is not analogous to, for > instance, American-Irish rooting for an Irish team playing a U.S. team. Though > many Americans take their sports seriously (as do Indians), they would find > that attitude both understandable and maybe even amusing. But the U.S. has > never been at war with Ireland, nor does Ireland pose any sort of threat to > U.S. security at present, nor are Americans concerned that that one or several > states will secede and join Ireland anytime in the foreseeable future. Where > any of those conditions present, rooting for an Irish team against a U.S. team > might be dangerous. > > I suppose Czechs in the late 30s were merely crass bigots for being concerned > that there were many Germans inside their border, for whom Hitler had a > protective affinity? It seems to me that situation is more analogous to the > Indian one, rather than, let's say, neonazi skinheads attacking Turkish and > other minorities in Germany in the 80s and 90s. The Czech case is interesting - currently there is a commission of historians sponsored by both the Czech and the German governments charged with the task of writing a definitive record of who did what to whom. It seems a laudable task, and maybe it resembles what JB Sharma was writing about. I don't see any possibility of doing anything like that with Indian Muslim historians - if there are any. So let's be realistic - if the kind of catastrophe that Sharma foresees is going to be avoided, another way has to be found. > The population disparities and the questionable loyalties speak to > the issue of how much longer certain parts of India will remain Indian, and at > what cost? In a fantasy world we might be able to dream of Tamils leaving Sri > Lanka to the Sinhalese Buddhists, and Muslims who feel India is not really > their government leaving India to the Hindus (and Ambedkar Buddhists, etc.), > but the real world is messier than that -- and where would the Sikhs go? Most > of us neither foresee nor particularly desire an India that is homogenous and > uni-ethnic (the very idea boggles the mind). Quite so. It wouldn't even be Hindu as we know it! Hinduism is diversity itself. A power capable of removing Muslims and others from India would be a totalitarian one which could not tolerate this kind of diversity. Most likely India would break apart. > I cannot agree with Mr. Tritsch that one can afford to ignore or overlook > history. As Santayana's (by now tired) cliche states: Those who don't learn > from history are condemned to repeat it. Clearly both the Hindus and the > Muslims have a strong sense of their history, and events within the lifetimes > of contemporary Indians more than suggest that that history can decisively and > irrevocably diminish India (at a minimum, territorily). I don't agree with Mr. Tritsch either, IF that is what he said. Obviously history, even medieval history, is important for how political elites act and how they sell their ideas to their constituencies. WHETHER they can sell their ideas depends a lot on the current concrete concerns of their constituencies. Ask any politician, he'll tell you. There is an interplay - the history can often provide a framework of rationalisation for already present concerns. In particular, the history provides a guideline on WHO TO TRUST. That is a very important matter in any social entity, because it is central to the natural human idea of justice. At the moment, unfortunately, history is interpreted, rightly or wrongly,as telling the Hindu not to trust the Muslim. Regards, Mark Tritsch ********************************************************** DR. MARK F. TRITSCH (Tel/Fax: +49 611 691497) Institut fuer Zoologie III Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet 55099 Mainz Germany Schnappschuss internationale Forschungsnachrichten Breslauer Strasse 14 b 65203 Wiesbaden Germany ********************************************************** From tart at iastate.edu Mon Dec 11 21:23:09 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:23:09 -0600 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022073.23782.3302787531480055633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to reply to the issues about the Turkish and Afghan invasions that I suggested were better called that than the Islamic invasions they are usually called. The issue is like current US news reporting about Muslims, Croats and Serbs rather than Bosnians, Croats and Serbs, or Muslims, Orthodox Christians and Catholics. The definitions are there to achieve political ends. I donUt see a religious issues at the heart of whatUs going on in the former Yugoslavia today. Religiously identified communities no doubt, but not religious issues. To suggest the opposite would be to suggest that Orthodox Christians and Catholics all over the world have reasons to go to war. Which they donUt. >Were there are *no* "religious invasions"? >The Turkic and Afghan invasions into India differ qualitatively from the >European invasions of the Americas in one important respect. The Afghans >knew a great deal about India, and could have invaded deep into Indian >territory centuries before they were Muslims. But they don't seem to have >done that to any significant extent. But after they became Muslims, there >was a spurt of martial activity. What was the reason? There certainly must have been a complex of reasons. But the failure of any serious success of conversion in the regions around Delhi, where every invader immediately set up shop, suggests that conversion was not a major one. IndiaUs major Islamic conversion occurred elsewhere and later. >It is very difficult not to attribute the sudden rise in >invasions by the Arabs and the Turks to the growth of Islam. I donUt say there was no connection. I am saying this is not the only issue or the most significant issue. The invasions that ended in Sind in the early 7th century were different. Why bother with the difference, when the fact is the invaders were Muslims and eventually a significantg part of the population did turn to Islam? Because treating the issue as religious invasion conceptualizes the history as essentially one of religious competition, and that is not only wrong, it is also an incitement to continuing religious strife. India is not a Hindu paradise invaded by Muslims who contue to cause disunity and backwardness. It is a region where many sects were and are prevelent, into which conquerors have brought yet other religiouns. And where Islam has, due to the success of both some of those conquerers and of the genuinely religious people who accompanied them has spread widely. TodayUs Indian Muslims are not the descendents of the conquerors so much as the descendents of those who converted because they found IslamUs message more significant than the other alternatives that surrounded them. They are as Indian as any Brahman or Brahmanical Hindu. >Mohammed of Ghazni >certainly sold his repeated forays into India to his own clergy as >being motivated by religion. How such invasions were sold to the clergy may not explain well why his booty-raids had no significant religious effects. In terms of the European invasion of the Americas >the papacy certainly got into the act. >It was organized religion supporting organized and not so organized armies >in the case of Spain and Portugal invading America and also to a smaller >extent, India. The motivation to win souls for the "true religion" was >a very important component in this case also. The records certainly >show that religion played a very important, perhaps the most important >part, in motivating these invasions. >...Like it or not, differences in religion did and continue to play significant roles in invasion. One only has to remember the recent Oklahoma city bombings. The all-too-convenient Islamic threat was easily invoked throughout the US and people were ready to go to war if a Muslim was found guilty. A good example. Religious antipathies played a very important in the mistaken interpretations of the Oklahoma bombing, and no part, as far as we can tell now, in the bombing. My point is not that religion hasnUt played a major part in the invasion, but that its part is misunderstood if we take it face value as essentially a religious invasion intent upon conversion. For a few, indeed the invasions that brought Islam to India from the end of the thirteenth century on may have had essentially religious significance, but for the plundering warriors who lead the charge and did the subsequent division of spoils and capture of much of India the goals were material not spiritual. Their religious beliefs and interests were subordinated to their interest in power and pleasure. I don't see anything different in the European conquest of the Americas. They killed the natives for their land, they didn't worry more than perfunctorily about their souls. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Mon Dec 11 23:43:14 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:43:14 -0800 Subject: translation, meaning, language, laughter (silent) Message-ID: <161227022080.23782.4056494685619645118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Aditya Dev Sood wrote: > The grammar may be wrong*The grammar may be wrong*The grammar may be wrong > but that has less to do with the distinction between a 'good' (=literal?) and > How to communicate that arguing about a translation is akin to arguing > about a line in a novel? -- you may not like it, but that doesn't make it > wrong. One's only effective response is to write another reflection of As far as one can remember, Prof. Witzel's criticism was that O'F's translation was idiosyncratic and unreliable, not that it was wrong. And I'm sure that all the comments about translation being fracture and reconstitution are perfectly well-known to every serious academic. The point is that the reconstitution should not be colored by preconceived ideas of what constitutes the original text. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From wagers at computek.net Mon Dec 11 23:10:13 1995 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 17:10:13 -0600 Subject: translation, meaning, language, laughter (silent) Message-ID: <161227022077.23782.2351462850085852761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Speaking as a layperson who makes some of his own clumsy translations, I find that truly literal translations make certain features and additional meanings of the language pop out at you which are seldom preserved in the translation. Sometimes, it's like eating a raw, and perhaps partially indigestible, foodstuff versus eating a thoroughly cooked one. I wonder if anyone has ever explored the uses of, otherwise, unjustifiably-literal translations. Although they are undoubtedly harder to read, it seems to me that there might be certain advantages, and it might be worth testing against standard translations. I wonder, too -and not being a linguist have no method of finding out - whether the impressions one gets from a truly literal translation are valid or are artifacts of translating word order, etc. in your head. Sincerely, Will From y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu Mon Dec 11 23:23:42 1995 From: y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu (y.r.rani at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 17:23:42 -0600 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022079.23782.14846070605977663074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are so many problems in India. The communal problems just sit on top of all the other political and economic problems like hot cinders, fanned by politicians and religious leaders. At the end of the twentieth century, ethnicity, in its combustible nationalistic incarnation, has emerged as a powerfully murderous tool. Ancient ethnic hatreds, that have long divided humankind by "race," faith and nationality, have acquired a profundity in the power vacuum of the post-communist, postmodern world. Mankind has seemingly reverted to tribal organizational principals at the close of the millennium. The flare-ups of these old hatreds are not simply the legacy of the "New World Order," replete with its neo-colonial and post-colonial clich?s, nor simply the result of the thawing of Cold War alliances, nor did they automatically arise from a politicized middle-class with access to mass media. They are cloaked in historical context which are superimposed on modern political and economic competitions, all of which are actively manipulated by elites vying for dominance. Ethnic identities need not be based on dynamic and tangible horizontal relationships, but may indeed arise from the collective imagination and long suppressed memories of a people. These ascriptions may be drawn from tales of mythical deprivations and discriminations, or ancient conflicts long dormant, that are revived and reshaped by modern elites who aspire for political power. It is unfortunate that many of the elites in the BJP espouse hateful ethnic diatribes. I say unfortunate, because they could play another card which would bring out the more moderate elements in society instead of the hate card which can only cause a conservative Muslim backlash. The "Sangh Parivar" claim that they are a reaction to the fundamentalist attitudes of Indian Muslims and the worldwide rise of Muslim fundamentalism . . . yet, as is the usual course of events, they in turn, play the same hate card, and the murderous game goes on. This game is perpetuated by the hate mongering styles of such VOI writers as Koenraad Elst. I mentioned in a previous post that "Negationism in India" by Koenraad Elst, though fascinating reading, can not help but turn off the objective reader due to his nasty comments about Muslims. Though he and his fellows may indeed have well documented information, replete with realistic representations of the medieval period, the fact that he must degrade his scholarship with the use of very hateful asides directed at Muslim and Islam, is shameful. Various perspectives of Indian history can be told without subjecting the reader to insults intended to incite ancient hatreds. I have not read all of Mr. Elst's books and in fact, except for "Negationism in India," most of his books are well footnoted (there are 163 footnotes in Elst's book "RJB vs Babri Masjid" in 166 pages of text). It is not so much his scholarship that is called into question (of which I am not here making a judgment), but rather his propagandistic, hateful style. The problems of Hindu-Muslim communalism are as deep as any ethnic divide known to man. It is amazing and a testimonial to character of Indian civlization, that there has not been the mass genocide which has occurred in Bosnia, Rwanda, Liberia, Cambodia and Bangla Desh, just to mention a few of the places where ethnic cleansings have radically impacted the populations, turning millions of citizens into refugees and burying the rest in mass graves. Hopefully the more moderate elements in the INdian political discourse will obtain. Ironically, even if BJP wins a large percentage of the popular votes, due to the nature of Indian politics, they will undoubtedly have to form a coalition government, and unless they distance themselves from the vitriolic comments of the likes of Koenraad Elst and Uma Bharati, no one will join in a coalition government with them. They may win more seats in the Lok Saba, but, they will never head a coalition government if they keep playing the hate card. Gary Tartakov wrote: "The [invaders'] religious beliefs and interests were subordinated to their interest in power and pleasure." ( . . .) "I don't see anything different in the European conquest of the Americas. They killed the natives for their land, they didn't worry more than perfunctorily about their souls." What I have understood about both of these "invasions" is that, though they were primarily greed driven, they were justified and given a feverish pitch by the use of religion and the mandate to save the souls of the pagans. Perhaps, Mr. Tartakov's comment that the "failure of any serious success of conversion in the regions around Delhi, where every invader immediately set up shop" suggests more the resiliency and faith of the Hindu people than the thwarted goals of the Islamic invaders. Yvette C. Rosser ***************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ G R E E T I N G S F O R A _/M\_ ,,,,"X",,,, /''''''\ %%%%%% :{ ^?^ }: ! *?* ! \ ~ / *\ @ /* Y V H A P P Y A N D P R O S P E R O U S N E W Y E A R ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***************** From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Tue Dec 12 04:32:31 1995 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (F.J. Martinez Garcia) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 22:32:31 -0600 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?C_4-Professur_f=01r_lndologie?= Message-ID: <161227022074.23782.3059326451081421325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JOHANNES GUTENBERG-UNIVERSITT MAINZ Im Fachbereich 15 - Philologie III -, Institut fr lndologie, ist zum nchstmglichen Termin eine C 4-Professur fr lndologie (Nachfolge Prof. Dr. Georg Buddruss) wiederzubesetzen. Die Stelleninhaberin oder der Stelleninhaber vertritt das Fach Indologie in Forschung und Lehre. Ernscht ist eine zustzliche Kompetenz im Bereich Iranistik. Der Intensivierung der interdisziplinren Zusammenarbeit mit religions- oder sprachwissenschaftlichen Nachbarfchern misst die Universitt besondere Bedeutung zu. Einstellungsvoraussetzungen, Habilitation oder habilitationsgleiche Leistungen und pdagogische Eignung. Schwerbehinderte werden bei entsprechender Eignung bevorzugt eingestellt. Die Johannes Gutenberg-Universitt Mainz ist bestrebt, den Anteil an Frauen im wissenschaftlichen Bereich zu erhhen. Bewerbungen mit den blichen Unterlagen (Lebenslauf, Schriftenverzeichnis, Litste der durchgefhrten Lehrveranstaltungen) werden bis zum 12.1.1906 erbeten an den Dekanat des Fachbereichs 15 - Philologie ill - der JOHANNES GUTENBERG-UNIVERSITT MAINZ Saarstr. 21 55099 Mainz ---------------------- ======================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Mart!nez Garc!a Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 7982 2847 Universitt Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 7982 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 7982 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de http: //www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html ======================================================================= From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Dec 11 14:40:48 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 23:40:48 +0900 Subject: Robin Kornman on Witzel's comments on.... Message-ID: <161227022062.23782.7994597084551110306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robin Kornman wrote: > But his criticism of the lines below > scares me, because I have and will give translations which vary as much from > the literal text. This is done and must be done to produce a decent read. It > is a time honored custom among translators--- particularly where you know > that somebody else has already done the very literal translation. In this statement, as well as in his remarks on Witzel's remarks, R. Korman seems to presuppose that the relevant criterion applied by Witzel was whether the translation is literal or not. To me, that seems off the mark. > Witzel's transltion is hard to read and doesn't make a great deal of sense. > Oh, he justifies it by saying that the original is actually five distinct > sentences. But since when has the word "Sensibly" been a sentence anyone > ever uttered or would utter? "Stand still" is a good interpretive > translation. Better perhaps than "Stay here." Even if I do not agree with > all of O'Flaherty's choices, they are legitimate if her job was to produce a > readable translation with some sense of flow. The "sense of flow", in my opinion, was more distinct in W's translation than in O's, for it matched the flow of the Vedic original more closely. To produce a translation with "some sense of flow" is just not enough - the "flow" would have to be an approximation, rendering etc. of the flow in the source-language - in other words, one would have to take into account the intentionality/functionality of the source-text more than the "easy-goingness" in the target language. Also, "sensibly" very obviously was not meant to be a sentence in the translation, but an elliptical phrasing intended precisely to catch the "flow" (hasty, stammering) of the original. > O's translation is as good as Geldner and Hoffman's. She could have known > viira is vocative and still have decided not to translate it into the > vocative. Becuase "You were my man" sounds cool. Forgive my bluntness, but this is nonsense. When one uses a vocative, one does so in order to address somebody - that's the intention of the speaker, and that is the function of the text. When the translation misses out this function, it's a bad translation. Certainly, "you were my man" and "oh man" are presupposing different intentions and meaning different things, no? >It sounds like something > somebody might say. But whether it sounds like something the actual speaker in the context of the text might have said is an entirely different issue. >And "king of my body" has a lot of punch. If O's > translation were the first in history of this text, then she might have felt > herself forced to prove she knew viira was vocative. But she made an > acceptable talk here. Acceptable to whom? To somebody who wishes to read ancient Indian text up-dated into easily readable present-day American English, with lots of punch and cool flows? > Witzel telling us that the word "sobbing" does not literally occur in the > original does not shock me out of my shoes. I assume that O interpreted this > line as being a description of a person sobbing and therefore used the word. > It scans well in the line. ON the other hand, the expression "when he > discerns" communicates nothing to me. Think about it. What is this line > trying to say? Is it trying to say that the person who will c Because one interprets a passage at describing a state of affairs - or an emotional state - does not justify the need to actually insert a description of that state of affairs into the translation. In the example quoted, the author mentions that the boy will let roll down tears. This is something which is not necessarily done with sobbing, therefore, the omission of "sobbing" might have been intended/marked in the original, and there is absolutely no justification to insert it in the translation. On the whole, I would like to have Robin Kornman's opinion on what other criteria, apart from "readability", a good translation should meet, and how exactly this "readability" is to be understood. So far, I can see little more in it than an excess in down-grading the beauty and poetic complexity of a text to the not necessarily ugly, but context-unfit language of a comic-book or a contemporary American airplane-novel. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From KHB12400 at niftyserve.or.jp Mon Dec 11 15:00:00 1995 From: KHB12400 at niftyserve.or.jp (Yasuhiro Okazaki) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 00:00:00 +0900 Subject: Vyomavatii's Mysore-MS Message-ID: <161227022066.23782.4698159093776413206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Dominik Wujastyk I am thanking your rapid reply and your kind proposal.If we get a copy or microfilm of Vyomavatii's Mysore MS, we can read an important VaizeSika text, Vyomavatii, more correctly. The detail of a Vyomavatii's MS called Mysore manuscript is, according to Prof. Halbfass's new book "On being and what there is" as follows: It is preserved in the collection of the Oriental Research Institute at University of Mysore (Ms. No. C-1575) I don't know about Mysore MS more. If you have a chance to order a copy or microfilm of this MS, and fulfil my request, we are very happy. Anyway, we are thanking your very kind proposal. Best regards Yasuhiro Okazaki (khb12400 at niftyserve.or.jp) 545 Arima, Chiyoda-cho Yamagata-gun, Hiroshima-ken JAPAN 731-15 tel +81-826-72-8851 From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Dec 12 13:45:48 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 05:45:48 -0800 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022090.23782.12739823475611407071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with the ongoing discussion, please read a recent issue of Frontline, a magazine published by The Hindu (Madras). Every issue of Frontline carries an article by A. G. Noorani, a very well-read and informed journalist. The issue I am talking about analyses some part of the early history of the Hindu Mahasabha and the RSS. S.P. Mookerjee and Savarkar are shown as collaboratros with the British against the policies of the Congress. In response to Prof. Lance Nelson's question, the names of Hamid Dalwai, Asghar Ali Engineer and A. G. Noorani come to mind. These people may not publish through academic publications, but their analyses are usually well-researched and thought-provoking. Generally speaking, news analysis, comments and reviews of current affairs in quite a few Indian magazines (India Today, Frontline, The Week, and a few others) are very valuable material for anyone interested in political developments in India. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From tart at iastate.edu Tue Dec 12 15:07:08 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:07:08 -0600 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022089.23782.5806495074231220354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've learned a good deal of value from Ms. Rosser and I appreciate her interest in one point I tried to make, that I wrote: "The [invaders'] religious beliefs and interests were subordinated to their interest in power and pleasure." ( . . .) "I don't see anything different in the European conquest of the Americas. They killed the natives for their land, they didn't worry more than perfunctorily about their souls." She responded: "What I have understood about both of these "invasions" is that, though they were primarily greed driven, they were justified and given a feverish pitch by the use of religion and the mandate to save the souls of the pagans. Perhaps, Mr. Tartakov's comment that the "failure of any serious success of conversion in the regions around Delhi, where every invader immediately set up shop" suggests more the resiliency and faith of the Hindu people than the thwarted goals of the Islamic invaders." None of us can doubt the resiliency and faith of any of the major religious faiths of India to have survived up to the present. The point I was trying to make is that those who have converted to Islam have by and large done so because it satisfied their spiritual understanding and that those who are Islamic by birth are their descendants, not some sort of foreign element in the Indian population or people converted through some spurious desire for material or political benefits or, in particular, by force of the Muslim invaders who did so much to bring the Islamic faith into India. We don't need to critique the benefits of either set of faiths to appreciate their validity in India today. We can and should critique antisocial aspects of any of them, but we don't need to take sides for either against the other or clutter discussion of every mention with reminders that "those people" were or are rotten too or "these people" are the truer victims. I find a good deal to critize in what some members of each of these several faiths believe, teach or act upon. I intend to criticize these things, not to create an essentialized bogey that supposedly represents everyone who is a Muslim or a Hindu. I think this is something we do agree upon. Gary Tartakov From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Tue Dec 12 08:54:59 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:54:59 +0100 Subject: Address of Annette Heitmann Message-ID: <161227022084.23782.16683924582112144126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone help me find the present address of Annette Heitmann? Thanks in advance, Johannes Bronkhorst From J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU Tue Dec 12 01:39:11 1995 From: J.Napier at unsw.EDU.AU (J.Napier) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:39:11 +1000 Subject: muslim population Message-ID: <161227022082.23782.6908878710675543936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Who is Narayan S. Raja kidding? In the first two weeks of December 1992 the Muslim population of India, as reported by educated residents of Calcutta, increased from 120 million to 300 million. Ain't rhetoric fun? John Napier Music and Music Education University of New South Wales Sydney Australia From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Tue Dec 12 11:37:33 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 12:37:33 +0100 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022085.23782.1219067951845320180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques XLIX, 2, 1995 has recently come out. It contains the following articles that may be of interest to Indologists: -Andreas Bock-Raming: The varieties of Indian chess through the ages. -Johannes Bronkhorst: The Buddha and the Jainas reconsidered. -Phyllis Granoff: Sarasvatii's sons: Biographies of poets in medieval India. Annette Heitmann: Momentane gnosis im Sinne der Madhyamakah.rdayakaarikaa und der in tibetischer Uebersetzung vorliegenden Tarkajvaalaa I-IV. -Max Nihom: Remarks on two translated passages from Buddhist Tantric literature. -Joachim Friedrich Sprockhoff: Prajaapatis Offenbarung fuer AAru.ni: Versuch einer deutschen Uebersetzung der AAru.ni-Upani.sad. -Maria Mariola Wuethrich-Sarnowska: The ideal of the liberation in a lifetime (jiivanmukti) in the A.s.taavakragiitaa. Reviews of: Alexander von Rospatt: The Buddhist Doctrine of Momentariness. Walter Slaje: Bhaaskaraka.n.thas Mok.solaaya-.Tiikaa. Hermann Oldenberg: Reden des Buddha. Anton Ungemach: 'Sa.mkara-Mandaara-Saurabha. For subscriptions etc., please write to: Prof. Robert Gassmann Ostasiatisches Seminar der Universitaet Zuerich Zuerichbergstrasse 4 CH-8032 Zuerich, Switzerland From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Tue Dec 12 11:39:54 1995 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 12:39:54 +0100 Subject: New publication Message-ID: <161227022087.23782.13186370693841699699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I sent a list of contents of Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques XLIX.2, 1995, under the heading "Re: Muslims, was the "PC" Card". Please find it there. From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Tue Dec 12 18:14:52 1995 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 13:14:52 -0500 Subject: muslim population Message-ID: <161227022092.23782.7358771568471902246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I appreciated John Napier's comment, and may say more in response to it later, but given the intensity of the discussion it might have been a useful precaution to have marked it somehow as irony -- or am I mistranslating? Gene Thursby On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, J.Napier wrote: > Who is Narayan S. Raja kidding? In the first two weeks of December 1992 the > Muslim population of India, as reported by educated residents of Calcutta, > increased from 120 million to 300 million. Ain't rhetoric fun? > > John Napier > Music and Music Education > University of New South Wales > Sydney Australia > > From magier at columbia.edu Wed Dec 13 02:45:02 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 21:45:02 -0500 Subject: Summer Sinhala Program Message-ID: <161227022101.23782.11825689870827920315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This announcement is being forwarded to your listrserv from The South Asia Gopher. Please contact the Cornell South Asia Program directly if you have further questions. David Magier --------------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:36:26 -0500 From: Anne Michele Patterson To: magier at columbia.edu Subject: Re: Summer Sinhala Program -Reply SINHALA AT CORNELL--SUMMER 1996 A summer intensive program in Sinhala, the major official language of Sri Lanka is regularly offered in the Cornell University Summer Session by the Department of Modern Languages and the South Asia Program in alternate years. The next offering will be in Summer 1996 from June 12 through August 7. Under the direction of Professor James Gair, together with other experienced staff, the central offering is Sinhala 160, an eight-week, ten credit course that covers the material generally included in the two-semester sequence, Sinhala 101-102, offered at Cornell during the regular academic year. Emphasis in Sinhala 160 is on the spoken (colloquial) language, but the writing system will be introduced and after an initial period, all Sinhala materials will be in that script. There will also be additional reading practice with colloquial materials, thus laying a foundation for later study of the written language which differs sharply from that used for oral communication. FINANCIAL AID: Two U.S. Department of Education Fellowships, covering tuition, fees and a maintenance allowance are available through the South Asia Program. These fellowships are open to U.S. citizens and permanent residents who are graduate students at Cornell or other institutions. In addition, some tuition waivers may be available for those with teaching or research interests in Sri Lanka. INFORMATION AND APPLICATIONS: Requests for additional information about the program and application materials should be directed to: South Asia Program Summer Sinhala 170 Uris Hall Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-7601 (607)255-8493 From wildfire at enterprise.ca Wed Dec 13 03:05:00 1995 From: wildfire at enterprise.ca (wildfire at enterprise.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 22:05:00 -0500 Subject: Jain religion in a scientific perspective Message-ID: <161227022099.23782.16270496495067087706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am looking for Scientific analysis of Jain religion in English. Also looking for Carl Jung analysis of Jain religion. Does anyone know where it can be found ? Please send it to me if you have it. Thanks Mannish From soumitra at ix.netcom.com Wed Dec 13 06:32:15 1995 From: soumitra at ix.netcom.com (soumitra at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 22:32:15 -0800 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022107.23782.18322528987471911556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You wrote: > >Gary M Tartakov writes: > >>point I was trying to make is that those who have converted to Islam >>have by and large done so because it satisfied their spiritual >>understanding and that those who are Islamic by birth are their >>descendants, not some sort of foreign element in the Indian population >>or people converted through some spurious desire for material or >>political benefits or, in particular, by force of the Muslim invaders >>who did so much to bring the Islamic faith into India. > >I'm not at all sure with how much conviction one could make the above >point. That Indian muslims or their ancestors converted to Islam >voluntarily because of their spiritual needs and not through coercion >is a popular view among muslims. I did at one stage try to read up on >this subject to find just how true it could be and I couldn't find any >evidence to back this claim up. On the other hand I did find several >instances of forced conversion in the literature. Note for example, >even the persecution and massacre of "New muslims" (recent converts) >by Mohammed Thuglaq because of his suspicion that they were feigning >faith. This is documented by Ibn Bhatua, for example. > >Given a choice between torture and conversion, I doubt if many among >us would choose the former. We may even do so superficially, while >retaining our deepest beliefs. However, our children who grow up in >this new faith will adopt it as their basic belief, a fact that is >cunningly employed by missionary rulers. This seems a much more >plausible (to me) explanation of what could have happened. > >- & >-- >Anand Venkt Raman Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h) >Dept of Computer Science Fx: +64-6-350-5611 >http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman > > How I wish the world could be so easy , straight forward and one-dimensional.... Let me start with a often-occurring experience here in America . Many Americans ask me , how do you say that in Indian , how do you do that in Indian , How do you dress in Indian , so on and so forth . It took me time ans still takes me time to say THERE IS NOTHING UNIFIED CALLED INDIAN, NO PERSON CAN EVER SAY AND VOUCH ONE QUALITY ,GOOD BAD OR UGLY , CALLED INDIAN... The story of conversion is not the same too throughout India. First of all if I am forced to take upon a religion I would carru out my rituals and worships in private and I would make sure that the kids hate the imposed religion , this has happened throughout the history , The African Catholics still carry on worshipping their own god .The Santhals after all going to their DIKU God still have the most porpular MARANGBURU worship and the festival . No one can stop them now Marangburu is being worshipped in the churches of Jharrkhand and extended Jharkhand. I can site at least the example of BENGAL as a second point of opposition. BENGAL was alomst all Baudha before the Sen kingdom They came from KArnataka and then brought forth five Brahmins (who subsequently becase of this were ostracised by the Aryabarta, and five Kshatriyas from KAnauj-they subsequently were referred to as Rari KUlin BRAHmins and Kulin Kyasthas) they were given all the official power and the power to rule by their code -of-conduct .Budhhist influences were systematically curbed and destroyed by the Sens . All the local populace were put under occupation army and their rule , which obviously was torture .These populace were never getting any solace and succour from any other forces as there were no other state having buddhism as the state religion or the necessary force .After the Lakhan SEn's regime the Sen regime was kicked out by the pathans who were actually trying to gain a new area somehwat outside the Delhi influence .The local populace en-masse joined the muslim ranks to get rid off the rules of the serf-holders who were all progenies of the upper castes (still now in BEngal all the better-posts in everycase is being taken over by these progenies-I happen to be one of them).Thus we have the biggest muslim population in the South East Asia in one language .There is another class of people who converted themselves , they were the employees of the nwwabdom , these fair-skinned people were also from the North India originally and they due to their obsequiosity made themselves Muslims , these are the Sayids,Khondokars,KAjis and other higher "caste" Ashraf Muslims . Till long they used to converse in Urdu and Farsi at their homes , now they are all bengalees . This is in short the history of conversion (vide Haraporsad Sashtri and Nihar ranjan Roy) . Applying force cannot account for a majority of populace converting itself to Islam, after Murshidkuli khan came to power there is no proof of any forced conversion before 1947 East Pakisan . So the years of so-called Muslim rule in BEngal was much shorter and among thaose some deliberately wanted Hidnu Bhakti movement to flourish for simple political considerations of distancing themselves from the Delhi influence ..So let's us go deep itno details .... From mrabe at artic.edu Wed Dec 13 03:45:31 1995 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 22:45:31 -0500 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022105.23782.3936399150341403365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A question for J.B. Sharma (before this thread peters out, or burns...) How exactly is the dregging up of medieval atrocities committed by Muslims against Hindu shrines supposed to ameliorate the present communalist tensions? [I'm unable to find your exact words, just now, but I believe you said words to this effect more than once.] Wouldn't those Hindutva parties in favor of building (probably for the first time) a Ram janam-bhumi temple at Ayodhya gain enormous credibility for even- handedness if they proposed some sort of restitution in memory of those thousands of Jains who were impaled before a Pandyan king in the cause of Saiva bhakti? To quote K.A. Nilakanta Shastri's _A History of South India_ "The story goes that on this occassion [the nAyanAr Campantar's visit to Madurai] 8,000 Jains were put to death by impalement, and a festival in the Madura temple is supposed to commemorate the gruesome event to this day." 3rd ed., p. 424. According to the extensive and extremely vivid epigraphic record, as collected in part by Richard Davis, the plunder of TEMPLES in rival kingdoms was a frequent and openly admitted policy of kings in preMuslim India ("Indian Art Objects as Loot," _Journal of Asian Studies_ vol. 52:1 (Feb, l993): 22-48 Soon to be republished on a much expanded scale by Princeton). At present I fail to see much difference between intra-Hindu iconicide (to coin a phrase) and Islamic iconoclasm. Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University, & School of the Art Institute of Chicago _ From soumitra at ix.netcom.com Wed Dec 13 07:08:37 1995 From: soumitra at ix.netcom.com (soumitra at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 23:08:37 -0800 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022109.23782.7865224158574690724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You wrote: > >A question for J.B. Sharma (before this thread peters out, or burns...) > >How exactly is the dregging up of medieval atrocities committed by Muslims >against Hindu shrines supposed to ameliorate the present communalist >tensions? [I'm unable to find your exact words, just now, but I believe >you said words to this effect more than once.] > >Wouldn't those Hindutva parties in favor of building (probably for the >first time) a Ram janam-bhumi temple at Ayodhya gain enormous credibility >for even- handedness if they proposed some sort of restitution in memory of >those thousands of Jains who were impaled before a Pandyan king in the >cause of Saiva bhakti? To quote K.A. Nilakanta Shastri's _A History of >South India_ "The story goes that on this occassion [the nAyanAr >Campantar's visit to Madurai] 8,000 Jains were put to death by impalement, >and a festival in the Madura temple is supposed to commemorate the gruesome >event to this day." 3rd ed., p. 424. > >According to the extensive and extremely vivid epigraphic record, as >collected in part by Richard Davis, the plunder of TEMPLES in rival >kingdoms was a frequent and openly admitted policy of kings in preMuslim >India ("Indian Art Objects as Loot," _Journal of Asian Studies_ vol. 52:1 >(Feb, l993): 22-48 Soon to be republished on a much expanded scale by >Princeton). At present I fail to see much difference between intra-Hindu >iconicide (to coin a phrase) and Islamic iconoclasm. > >Michael Rabe >Saint Xavier University, & >School of the Art Institute of Chicago > >_ > > > > A pointer to this , guys I suggest you start reading Kolhon's Rajtaringini about the history of Kashmir and then other modern writers to find out the plunders the brahminists did over budhhist and jain relics and supporters .. The famous jagannath temple is built on a buddhist shrine (ARchelogical files of Orissa . Govt of Orsss -Dept of Archelogy NAtional .library Calcutta) From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Dec 12 23:23:10 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 23:23:10 +0000 Subject: Conversion Message-ID: <161227022103.23782.13165020412680629954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary Tartakov writes: >point I was trying to make is that those who have converted to Islam >have by and large done so because it satisfied their spiritual >understanding and that those who are Islamic by birth are their >descendants, not some sort of foreign element in the Indian population >or people converted through some spurious desire for material or >political benefits or, in particular, by force of the Muslim invaders >who did so much to bring the Islamic faith into India. ----- This thesis is not the same as presented by Prof K.S. Lal in his book "Indian Muslims; Who Are They". If someone has scholarly critique of the book, I would be most interested to know about it (a dissection of the book and its ideas; not the author). Islam arrived in India centuries earlier than Mohammed Ghori or even Muhammad Bin Qasim. It was brought by Arab traders peacefully, and the Hindu rajahs gave grants for the construction of Mosques. There was no substantial increase in the ranks of Islam at that time in those regions. This increase began only after Turco-Afghan swordsmen across India. The books written describing these times (Chach-Namah, Tabqt-i-Nasiri, Khazainu'l-Futuh and Dawal Rani-Khizr Khani (both by Amir Khusru), Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi, Futuhat-i Feroz Shahi (by Firuz Shah himself), Babar Namah (by Babar himself) just to name a very few) are full of stories of slaughter of infidels, the breaking/burning of temples, forced conversions, slave taking and religion tax. All of this is deemed in these works as the duty of the righteous; Ghazis - the slayer of infidels - a warrior saints of sorts. This paints a very grim picture for the circumstance helpless people found themselves in. Is there historical evidence to back the claim that most conversions were under no coercion or duress whatsoever and to satisfy spiritual leanings only ? And if this was so, why did not people invoke the more egalitarian alternative at the same rate as they did after the invasions ? If anyone has any insights into this I would be most interested in hearing them. All the best, J.B. Sharma From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Dec 13 14:11:24 1995 From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 08:11:24 -0600 Subject: old/new translations Message-ID: <161227022114.23782.15686497150592602018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel and other member of the list, This may seem like pabulum, but could be worth mentioning anyway. That is, grammar constrains a translational effort, but is not quite the constant that might be supposed ("Grammatically incorrect is grammatically incorrect is grammatically incorrect") For example, a genitive in Sanskrit often is best rendered as the subject of an English sentence, and so on. Grammar, in the source, CONSTRAINS translation, but leaves numerous options open, including grammatical options, in the target language. mahati vAyau udbhUta-rUpa-abhAvasya, kusume saurabhA-abhAvasya, guDe tiktatva-abhAvasya vA na cakSur-AdinA grahaH, api tu yogya-anupalabdhyA so 'numIyate\ | Concerning air as a gross element (and not the atoms), there is an absence of manifest color, but that is not grasped by the visual organ. Rather, we know this through inference based on the fact that color is in no way perceived and that we would perceive it if it were present in air. Similarly concerning an absence of a fragrance in a flower and the absence of bitter taste in sugar. (CLASSICAL INDIAN METAPHYSICS, p. 261) This is a single sentence from GaGgeza (Gangesa), within his treatment of the ontological status of inherence (samavAya), a sentence that I translate here with three sentences in English, turning a genitive into the subject of an English sentence, etc. Arguably, I may have taken too many liberties here, with insufficient effort to mirror the Sanskrit syntax. Nevertheless, I would argue that the translation captures literally GaGgeza's meaning. Moreover, grammar is not quite so important as some would make out, in another way, too: people commonly understand ungrammatical constructions. John Searle, the linguistic philosopher, has pointed to conversational presuppositions or governing principles (such as, "In conversation, we presuppose that a person is trying to say something that is true and makes sense"), as why we readily interpret an ungrammatical statement such that it makes sense. Oddly, it is in poetry, where it is a desideratum that particular ambiguities be preserved, that a translator often has to take extreme liberty. Since homonyms are rarely preservable in translation (and for other reasons as well), ambiguity is difficult to preserve. In philosophic translations (where it is okay to try to eliminate ambiguity, to an extent) I think the hardest thing to get right is the particular degree of intended suggestiveness of a word or claim. Stephen Phillips Professor, Philosophy and Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin From tart at iastate.edu Wed Dec 13 15:04:40 1995 From: tart at iastate.edu (Gary M Tartakov) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 09:04:40 -0600 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022116.23782.2431435275981367967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a very nicely composed study of conversion to Islam in India I would recommend reading Richard M. Eaton's "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier 1204-1760." Chapter 5, "Mass Conversion toIslam: Theories and Protoganists" offers a devastating crique of the forced-conversion thesis and several others. I previously alluded to one of his more interesting points when pointing to the fact that there is a relative paucity of Muslims in the central region of Sultanate and Mughal rule, the region around Delhi, as compared to the density of Muslim population in Bengal, where Muslims in political power were far less significant. From soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE Wed Dec 13 04:22:46 1995 From: soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE (soni at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 09:52:46 +0530 Subject: Jain religion in a scientific perspective Message-ID: <161227022111.23782.6834273119278093607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don?t know what you mean by a "scientific analysis of the Jain religion" but one of the best (in terms of attempting to be comprehensive) and most recent works on Jainism as a whole is #The Jains# by Paul Dundas published by Routledge in 1992. After Helmut von Glasenapp?s #Der Jainismu# published in 1925 in German (not yet translated into English), and still a standard work, Paul?s book brings us up to date. The information is based not only on original sources but also on field work and inforamtion gathered through personal contact with the Jainas in India and abroad. Jay Soni, Dr EMail: soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de Department of Indologie, Philipps University Marburg, Wilhelm-Roepke- Strasse 6F, Marburg, D-35032 Germany. Fax: (06421) 288913 Phone(06421) 284942 From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Dec 12 21:05:18 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 10:05:18 +1300 Subject: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022095.23782.855272912880198935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary M Tartakov writes: >point I was trying to make is that those who have converted to Islam >have by and large done so because it satisfied their spiritual >understanding and that those who are Islamic by birth are their >descendants, not some sort of foreign element in the Indian population >or people converted through some spurious desire for material or >political benefits or, in particular, by force of the Muslim invaders >who did so much to bring the Islamic faith into India. I'm not at all sure with how much conviction one could make the above point. That Indian muslims or their ancestors converted to Islam voluntarily because of their spiritual needs and not through coercion is a popular view among muslims. I did at one stage try to read up on this subject to find just how true it could be and I couldn't find any evidence to back this claim up. On the other hand I did find several instances of forced conversion in the literature. Note for example, even the persecution and massacre of "New muslims" (recent converts) by Mohammed Thuglaq because of his suspicion that they were feigning faith. This is documented by Ibn Bhatua, for example. Given a choice between torture and conversion, I doubt if many among us would choose the former. We may even do so superficially, while retaining our deepest beliefs. However, our children who grow up in this new faith will adopt it as their basic belief, a fact that is cunningly employed by missionary rulers. This seems a much more plausible (to me) explanation of what could have happened. - & -- Anand Venkt Raman Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h) Dept of Computer Science Fx: +64-6-350-5611 http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman From wagers at computek.net Wed Dec 13 16:08:14 1995 From: wagers at computek.net (wagers at computek.net) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 10:08:14 -0600 Subject: translation, meaning, language, laughter (silent) Message-ID: <161227022118.23782.2911013816796610955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to everyone who responded off-list to my musings on raw translations. Your comments were very helpful. Sincerely, Will From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Dec 12 21:12:04 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 10:12:04 +1300 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022097.23782.14167892205076119750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In connection with the ongoing discussion, please read a recent >issue of Frontline, a magazine published by The Hindu (Madras). Since not many on this list has access to the magazine, it would have been helpful if Mr Vidyasankar had given a precis of the article, the gist of it, or even the title and subject. Cheers. - & -- Anand Venkt Raman Ph: +64-6-350-4186, 355-0062 (a/h) Dept of Computer Science Fx: +64-6-350-5611 http://fims-www.massey.ac.nz/~ARaman From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Dec 13 18:27:21 1995 From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 12:27:21 -0600 Subject: grammaticality (was old/new translations) Message-ID: <161227022126.23782.7325203072953272486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Birgit Kellner wrote: But to explain better what I already tried to > explain many times before, consider his example: > > >mahati vAyau udbhUta-rUpa-abhAvasya, kusume > >saurabhA-abhAvasya, guDe tiktatva-abhAvasya vA na > >cakSur-AdinA grahaH, api tu yogya-anupalabdhyA so 'numIyate\ | > > > >Concerning air as a gross element (and not the atoms), there is an absence > >of manifest color, but that is not grasped by the visual organ. Rather, we > >know this through inference based on the fact that color is in no way > >perceived and that we would perceive it if it were present in air. Similarly > >concerning an absence of a fragrance in a flower and the absence of bitter > >taste in sugar. (CLASSICAL INDIAN METAPHYSICS, p. 261) > The problems I see in that translation: > > - translating "there is an absence of manifest colour, but that..." > misplaces the emphasis. The main statement of the original text is "the > absence of manifest colour is not grasped by the visual organ". There is no > initial statement propounding the EXISTENCE (or occurrence or whatever you > choose to say) of manifest colour in air. Consequently, the rather > artificial introduction "concerning..." becomes superfluous - "the absence > of...in air, when it is a gross element (and not when it has atomic form).." > does the job. Also, the "concerning..." obliterates the fact that the > original enumerates three cases with precisely the same syntactic form. Well, I did worry about this. In fact, this is the only place that I included a note to the effect that there is significant departure from the Sanskrit syntax, "more than is my usual practice." (CIM p. 365) I used the word "Similarly" to try to restore the parallelism. > > - Ignorant of the immediate context, it is hard to say whether the > three cases (absence of manifest colour in air, fragrance in a flower and > bitter taste in sugar) are located at the same level, or whether the first > is in focus and the two other ones are only added as examples (the position > of the "vA" would support the latter interpretation). If the latter > possibility holds, the quoted translation obliterates the fact that the > examples are interspersed in the main statement. "The absence of manifest > colour...- just like the absence of fragrance... -" seems better to me, for > it captures the rhetorical flow (yes!) of the argument. At any rate, I find > it neither necessary, nor helpful, to move out the two other cases from the > middle of the statements to its very end. This "moving" also results in an > obvious violation of the original: AdinA (cakSurAdinA) is left untranslated, > because "Adi" refers to smell and taste, which have, at this point, not yet > been introduced in the translation. > Yes, leaving AdinA untranslated is the most serious flaw, I think, here. But the moving I do think aids clarity and does reflect the author's emphasis, though of course establishing that would be a long story and we would have to look at a lot of the preceding text. > - "based on the fact that color is in no way perceived and that we > would perceive it if it were present in air" is a nonsensical translation > for "yogyanupalabdhyA". Obviously, the translator tried to clarify the > concept "yogyAnupalabdhi" by inserting its presuppositions in the > translation, but then, that's not a translation, but a clear-cut > explanation/interpretation. Moreover, "yogyanupalabdhi" is a technical term, > and this technicality should be preserved in the translation - explain the > rest in foot-notes, if necessary. Surely it is not nonsensical. I think my translation is rather precise. The term may be a technical term in that it is used by NaiyAyika-s often, but it is used in the sense of my translation. Why should short-hand be preserved in a translation meant for students of philosophy? > > The problem of this translation, thus, is not that it insufficiently > "mirrors" the syntax, as Stephen Phillips feared, but that it does not > capture the progress of the argument and, in general, represents a > commentarial re-phrasing rather than a genuine translation. > I disagree. > > >Moreover, grammar is not quite so important as some would make out, in > >another way, too: people commonly understand ungrammatical constructions. > > This is an altogether different understanding of "correct grammar" than the > one M. Witzel applied: He referred to a "relational grammaticality", viz., > that the grammar of the translation shall not violate the grammar of the > original. Searle et al., however, refer to grammaticality as a property of > one, and only one language, not in relation to another - the sentence "you > are my man" is grammatical in English, but not grammatically correct as a > translation of the Vedic vocative _viira_. This may be largely true, but there may be some relevance, too. The general point is that a translator operates within expectations and conditions set by the audience, and sometimes these override at least a too strict understanding of grammatical desiderata. Still, probably some basic grammatical constraints cannot be overriden. Stephen Phillips Professor, Philosophy and Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin >?From Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE 13 1995 Dec +0100 19:42:00 Date: 13 Dec 1995 19:42:00 +0100 From: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Subject: Exact dates of Koeppen and Guerinot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: Peter at pwyz.RHEIN.DE Hello to all My name is Karl-Heinz Golzio. As I am working to establish a personel list to the critical edition of Max Weber's study on Hinduism and Buddhism I want to know the exact bio-dates of Carl Friedrich Koeppen (supposed dates: 1806-1863), author of "Die Religion des Buddha" and the French Jainologist Armand Albert Guerinot (year of birth: 1872). Thanks in advance. K.-H. Golzio From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Wed Dec 13 12:56:52 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 12:56:52 +0000 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022122.23782.3788860154587444650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A question for J.B. Sharma (before this thread peters out, or burns...) How exactly is the dregging up of medieval atrocities committed by Muslims against Hindu shrines supposed to ameliorate the present communalist tensions? [I'm unable to find your exact words, just now, but I believe you said words to this effect more than once.] Wouldn't those Hindutva parties in favor of building (probably for the first time) a Ram janam-bhumi temple at Ayodhya gain enormous credibility for even- handedness if they proposed some sort of restitution in memory of those thousands of Jains who were impaled before a Pandyan king in the cause of Saiva bhakti? To quote K.A. Nilakanta Shastri's _A History of South India_ "The story goes that on this occassion [the nAyanAr Campantar's visit to Madurai] 8,000 Jains were put to death by impalement, and a festival in the Madura temple is supposed to commemorate the gruesome event to this day." 3rd ed., p. 424. According to the extensive and extremely vivid epigraphic record, as collected in part by Richard Davis, the plunder of TEMPLES in rival kingdoms was a frequent and openly admitted policy of kings in preMuslim India ("Indian Art Objects as Loot," _Journal of Asian Studies_ vol. 52:1 (Feb, l993): 22-48 Soon to be republished on a much expanded scale by Princeton). At present I fail to see much difference between intra-Hindu iconicide (to coin a phrase) and Islamic iconoclasm. Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University, & School of the Art Institute of Chicago -------------------------- My questions to the list are a part of my own attempts to understand the history of medevial India, such that I may be able to understand roots of the Hindu-Muslim conflict which has debilitated the sub- continent for so long and shows no sign of abating. In fact it only seems to get worse. What exactly has transpired on the hapless folk in course of the invasions is not an issue of discussion in Indian academia (or seemingly elsewhere). I am interested in the story of these folk and this is a genuine historical question. Once more, I believe that the sporadic vicious communal violence is driven by these historical resentments which remain in the folk-memory even if they are not explicated. Sita Ram Goels compilation of the work of scribes who eyewittnessed these times brings out a time of fear and destruction which continued for almost eight hundred years. I am interested in understanding the effect of this on all people of the sub-continent and it seems to me that we can make sense of the irrational happenings of today based on the mostly suppressed historical baggage. I do not believe that the scale of killing and destruction in the Hindu-Muslim conflict is not the same as in the case of Hindu- Jaina of Hindu-Buddhist violence. The medevial books I referenced in my previous note go on and on about the thousands of infidels killed/converted and the thousands of temples destroyed. Whereas there have been cases of Hindu kings getting pangs of conscience and rebuilding Jaina temples after destroying them. Do you know of any Islamic iconoclast getting similar twinges of conscience ? Also bear in mind, Jainism survived in India by melding into nebulous Hindu fold. Buddhism was not that lucky because of it monastic tradition. As for some in the Hindutva gang espousing reclamation of some mosques; I am in total disagreement with these folks and I think that we should be wary of them. These mosques were taken in war, and he time to fight was then. I think that these buildings should be preseved forever as a reminder to Hindus of what happens due to this endemic internal divisiveness, and to catalyze reform. I do hope that a sane and non-vindictive leadership will rise to the occasion. To my mind the U.S. remains an exemplar in defusing the liabilities invoked by atrocity in its historical past. Once more, there is no shirking from debate on the unpleasant facts of slavery and genocide of the native population. All of what transpired is shared and accepted by all, and this candidness has led to the most creative forms of societal healing. Since there is a common vision of he past, there can be a common vision of the future. Just think of the mess there would be (similar to the Indian sub-continent) if slavery and genocide was simply denied as an affront to ancestral memory and such things were not a part of public discussion and debate. This very same intellectual honesty has lead to social equality and progress in a manner (and at a rate) which gives hope for the resolution of similar deeply rooted conflicts in other parts of the world. In summary, I do not believe that Intra-Hindu conflict as large in scale as the Hindu-Muslim conflict. And really, it it were as large and systematic, then Hinduism should have destroyed Jainism and Buddhism a long time ago. A sentimental aversion to unpleasant history will never illuminate possible pathways out of this centuries old conflict. I must step out of the debate for some time as we are about to travel. It has been like walking thru a minefield, but I have learned a lot from the discussions which have ensued. I think that all of the participants in this firestorm have ventured into it out of genuine concern and have helped me greatly to shape/modify my views. I wish everyone a very happy and contemplative holiday season. Regards, J.B. Sharma _ From mrabe at artic.edu Wed Dec 13 20:18:40 1995 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:18:40 -0600 Subject: Muslims, was the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022128.23782.13354125943915204258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sharma ji, Thank you for your courteous and prompt reply. Godspeed for the holidays, and hurry back so we can continue (I have more to say in reply to your mail of this afternoon) Michael Rabe SXU SAIC > > I must step out of the debate for some time as we are about to >travel. It has been like walking thru a minefield, but I have learned >a lot from the discussions which have ensued. I think that all of the >participants in this firestorm have ventured into it out of genuine >concern and have helped me greatly to shape/modify my views. I wish >everyone a very happy and contemplative holiday season. >Regards, >J.B. Sharma > > > > > > > > > >_ > > > > From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Dec 13 21:06:47 1995 From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:06:47 -0600 Subject: grammaticality (was old/new translations) Message-ID: <161227022133.23782.10966271963479760757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mulling over Birgit Kellner's comments on a posting of mine, I want to make a few further remarks. 1. The charge that a translation is an interpretation is unanswerable, except by pointing out that since it would apply to all translations (any translation is an interpretation), it does not cut the ice against mine. A translator has to understand what he or she is rendering. Understanding even in one's mother tongue involves interpretation (involving background assumptions, etc.). There are of course degrees here, but that is just my point. If I followed the stricture that so-called technical terms in Sanskrit have to be rendered preserving that status, I doubt that I could have made a readable translation, readable to my audience of students of philosophy. 2. The example chosen was unfair to Kellner who, I take it, did not read the preceding text. The context is a pUrvapakSa within a pUrvapakSa and a series of objections. 3. Probably, as I earlier admitted, it is a fault not to have rendered Adi. Justification of the omission is not, however, hard to come by. The use of Adi in Sanskrit reads much more fluidly than use of "etc." in English. And Gangesa uses it all too frequently. His point is usually that other examples could be given. But, indeed, that other examples could be given is usually conversationally (in reading, etc.) presupposed. So it's not necessary to render it all the time, though I'd say I rarely do not. 4. A point applicable to the criticism of Wendy Doniger. Sometimes it is not worth pursuing a translational problem and trying to get the utter best rendering. It would take too much time, and it would serve one's audience and discipline as well as oneself by cutting short research. In a long passage I translated from VAcaspati Mizra II (c. 1500), there was an example given of a perception of an absence that I gave up on: a perception of a stump as not a demon. I found the same example in GaGgeza (Gangesa) and in Udayana as well, but it was not clear that they were using it to the same purpose. Surendranath Dasgupta cited the same example in the fourth vol. of his HISTORY OF IND. PHIL., and I found it in a later Nayva NaiyAyika text as well. But there remained ambiguity. So I decided to give my best guess instead of trying to find other usages. Having made the overall argument intelligible in English, I decided it was not worth the time to pursue my, arguably, unreliable rendering. Finally, let me say, self-servingly, that I selected the text Kellner commented on by remembering that there was a single footnote in my long book where I confessed to an uneasiness about not honoring the Sanskrit order of words (and using three sentences to render one, etc.). Lest indologists think that this passage is a fair sample, I now stress that the reason I put it forth was its likelihood to elicit criticism. That it has, though more for the reason of my rendering of the "technical term" (which practice of mine I feel is entirely defensible). Stephen Phillips Professor, Philosophy and Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin From unknown at example.com Wed Dec 13 21:31:40 1995 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:31:40 -0600 Subject: Indian Life in America - R. K. Narayan Message-ID: <161227022130.23782.12563260697288820976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MY AMERICA ---------- Author: R.K. Narayan Source: October 1985 issue of Frontline At the American Consulates the visa issuing section is kept busy nowadays as more and more young men seek the Green Card or profess to go on a student visa and many try to extend their stay once they get in. The official handles a difficult task while filtering out the "permanents" and letting in only the "transients". The average American himself is liberal-minded and doesn't bother that more Indian engineers and doctors are swamping the opportunities available in the country possibly to the disadvantage of the American candidate himself. I discussed the subject with Prof. Ainslee Embree of Columbia University who has had a long association with Indian affairs and culture. His reply was noteworthy. "Why not Indians as well? In course of time they will be Americans. The American citizen of today was once an expatriate, a foreigner who had come out of a European or African country. Why not from India too? We certainly love to have Indians in our country." There are however, two views on this subject. The elderly parents of Indians settled in America pay a visit to them, from time to time (on excursion round ticket), and feel pleased at the prosperity of their sons or daughters in America. After a Greyhound tour of the country and a visit to Niagara, they are ready to return home when the suburban existence begins to bore them whether at New Jersey, or The Queens or the Silicon Valley neighborhood of California. But they always say on their return, "After all our boys are happy there. Why should they come back to this country, where they get no encouragement?" EXASPERATION Our young man who goes out to the States for higher studies or training, declares when leaving home, "I will come back as soon as I complete my course, may be two years or a little more, but I will definitely come back and work for our country, and also help our family....." Excellent intentions, but it will not work that way. Later when he returns home full of dreams, projects, and plans, he only finds hurdles at every turn when he tries for a job or to start an enterprise of his own. Form-filling, bureaucracy, caste and other restrictions, and a generally feudal style of functioning, exasperate the young man and waste his time. He frets and fumes as days pass with nothing achieved, while he has been running around presenting or collecting papers at various places. He is not used to this sort of treatment in America, where, he claims, he could walk into the office of the top man anywhere, address him by his first name and explain his purpose; when he attempts to visit a man of similar rank in India to discuss his ideas, he realizes that he has no access to him, but can only talk to subordinate officials in a hierarchy. Some years ago a biochemist returning home and bursting with proposals, was curtly told off by the big man when he innocently pushed the door and stepped in. "You should not come to me directly, send your papers through proper channels." Thereafter the young biochemist left India once for all. having kept his retreat open with the help of a sympathetic professor at the American end. In this respect American democratic habits have rather spoilt our young men. They have no patience with our official style or tempo, whereas an Indian at home would accept the hurdles as inevitable Karma. The America-returned Indian expects special treatment, forgetting the fact that over here chancellors of universities will see only the other chancellors, and top executives will see only other top executives and none less under any circumstance. Our administrative machinery is slow, tedious, and feudal in its operation, probably still based on what they called the Tottenham Manual, creation of a British administrator five decades ago. LACK OF OPENINGS One other reason for a young man's final retreat from India could also be attributed to the lack of openings for his particular qualification. A young engineer trained in robotics had to spend all his hours explaining what it means, to his prospective sponsors, until he realized that there could be no place for robots in an over-crowded country. The Indian in America is a rather lonely being, having lost his roots in one place and not grown them in the other. Few Indians in America make any attempt to integrate in American cultural or social life. So few visit an American home or a theater or an opera, or try to understand the American psyche. An Indian's contact with the American is confined to his colleagues working along with him and to an official or seminar luncheon. He may also mutter a "Hi!" across the fence to an American neighbor while lawn-mowing. At other times one never sees the other except by appointment, each family being boxed up in their homes securely behind locked doors. After he has equipped his new home with the latest dish-washer, video, etc., with two cars in the garage and acquired all that the others have, he sits back with his family counting his blessings. Outwardly happy, but secretly gnawed by some vague discontent and aware of some inner turbulence or vacuum, he cannot define which. All the comfort is physically satisfying, he has immense "job satisfaction" and that is about all. ENNUI On a week-end he drives his family fifty miles or more towards another Indian family to eat an Indian dinner, discuss Indian politics, or tax problems (for doctors particularly this is a constant topic of conversation, being in the highest income bracket). There is monotony in this pattern of life. so mechanical and standardized. In this individual, India has lost an intellectual or an expert; but it must not be forgotten that the expert has lost India too, which is a more serious loss in the final reckoning. The quality of life in India is different. In spite of all its deficiencies, irritations, lack of material comforts and amenities, and general confusion, Indian life builds up an inner strength. It is through subtle inexplicable influences (through religion, family ties, and human relationships in general). Let us call them psychological "inputs" to use a modern terminology, which cumulatively sustain and lend variety and richness to existence. Building imposing Indian temples in America, installing our gods therein and importing Indian priests to perform the puja and festivals, are only imitative of Indian existence and could have only a limited value. Social and religious assemblies at the temples (in America) might mitigate boredom but only temporarily. I have lived as a guest for extended periods in many Indian homes in America and have noticed the ennui that descends on a family when they are stuck at home. Children growing up in America present a special problem. They have to develop themselves on a shallow foundation without a cultural basis, either Indian or American. Such children are ignorant of India and without the gentleness and courtesy and respect for parents, which forms the basic training for a child in an Indian home, unlike the American upbringing whereby a child is left alone to discover for himself the right code of conduct. Aware of his child's ignorance of Indian life, the Indian parent tries to cram into the child's little head all possible information during an 'Excursion Fare' trip to the mother country. DIFFERING EMPHASIS In the final analysis America and India differ basically, though it would be wonderful if they could complement each other's values. Indian philosophy lays stress on austerity and unencumbered, uncomplicated day-to-day living. On the other hand, America's emphasis is on material acquisitions and a limitless pursuit of prosperity. >From childhood an Indian is brought up on the notion that austerity and a contended life is good. and also a certain other- worldliness is inculcated through the tales a grandmother narrates, the discourses at the temple hall, and through moral books. The American temperament, on the contrary, is pragmatic. INDIFFERENCE TO ETERNITY The American has a robust indifference to eternity. "Visit the church on a Sunday and listen to the sermon if you like but don't bother about the future," he seems to say. Also, "dead yesterday and unborn tomorrow, why fret about them if today be sweet?" - he seems to echo Omar Khayyam's philosophy. He works hard and earnestly, and acquires wealth, and enjoys life. He has no time to worry about the after-life; he only takes the precaution to draw up a proper will and trusts the Funeral Home around the corner to take care of the rest. The Indian who is not able to live on this basis wholeheartedly, finds himself in a half-way house; he is unable to overcome the inherited complexes while physically flourishing on the American soil. One may hope that the next generation of Indians (American-grown) will do better by accepting the American climate spontaneously or in the alternative return to India to live a different life. R. K. NARAYAN From gthursby at religion.ufl.edu Wed Dec 13 22:33:13 1995 From: gthursby at religion.ufl.edu (Gene Thursby) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 17:33:13 -0500 Subject: Narayan S. Raja's Posting: Muslims -- not a "problem" Message-ID: <161227022135.23782.18091542205682732094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unlike some serious-minded participants in the Indology list, I found the posting from Narayan Sriranga Raja quite lively and refreshing and to the point. I would like to recirculate his posting, and then comment at the end of it. On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Narayan S. Raja wrote: Meanwhile, back on this planet, in Jambudvipa: As I recall, the %ge of Muslims in India has grown from about 8-9% in 1947, to about 12% now. Even assuming that a relative increase in %ge of Muslims is a "problem" (itself an obnoxious and questionable assumption), the above numbers don't indicate a very serious problem (3-4% in 50 years). Further, migration from Bangladesh probably accounts for a big part of that increase. In another 50 years, Indian population is likely to have stabilized. Even if the %ge of Muslims has grown to, say, 20%, that doesn't outnumber the rest of us Kama-Sutra-readin', fast-breedin', Brahmin-feedin', Manu-Smriti-heedin' Hindu dudes and dudettes. The sky is not falling. This is not the end of civilization as we know it. Also, have some decency and don't talk of our Muslim fellow-citizens as a "problem." Comment: There is a colonial and post-colonial tradition of preoccupation with birth-rates and population growth in South Asia that reflects and feeds "communalism." The category "communalism" is a contended one, as are so many that are in use among social scientists and humanists worldwide. With the popularity of deconstructive and postmodern approaches among scholars, any singular generalizing and reifying nominal is suspect. However, I believe the term continues to be useful as a descriptive and analytic tool (even though it is suspect, at times politicized, and certainly a boo-word). Among historians in India, there has been longstanding interest in the analysis of communalism at Jawaharlal Nehru University. It was signaled by joint publication of three papers under the title Communalism in the Writing of Indian History (Delhi: People;s Publishing House, 1969) by Romila Thapar, Harbans Mukhia, and Bipin Chandra. Later Bipin Chandra, during his long materialist phase, was University Grants Commission National Lecturer. His lectures on this theme were published as Communalism in Modern India (New Delhi: Vikas Publishing House, 1984; rev. ed. 1987). There is also a retrospective collection of Bipin Chandra's papers under the title Ideology and Politics in Modern India (New Delhi: Har Anand Publications, 1994), which is a useful supplementary source, and contains a severe but accurate review of my own early and imcomplete study of the 1920s that came pout under the expansive title Hindu-Muslim Relations in British India (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1975). I trust Bipin Chandra's judgments, even when they have to be read through his own ideological orientations. But to focus more sharply on the concern about birth-rates and population growth (as, I would say, one component of communalist concern), the locus classicus for this is in Swami Shraddhahanda's Hindu Sangathan -- Saviour of the Dying Race (Delhi: Author at Indraji Press, 1926). It was widely influential, and opens with a section headed "The Hindus -- A Dying Race" in which Shraddhananda tells the story of his encounter with Colonel U. Mukerji in the Arya Samaj hall in Calcutta in February 1912. The Colonel had been studying the 1911 Census Report and had concluded (by extrapolating from the statistical material published there) that within 420 years there would be no more Hindus, while "Muhammadans" would cover the subcontinent. Shraddhananda's Hindu Sangathan was a tract for the times (albeit a lengthy one at 141 pages) and served to enlist volunteers and funds for the project of shuddhi or "reconversion" to "Hinduism." But, like Savarkar's Hindutva and other tracts for the(ir) times, the argument continues to circulate, inspire, worry, and even inflame people. From a mathematical-analytical perspective, it would be well to follow back the numerical bases for this line of reasoning and worrying. If we were to do so, we would find something like a variation on Zeno's paradox, namely a kind of faulty reasoning and self-defeating paradigm. We also would find a misappropriation of data that was problematic to begin. Rather than go into detail, please refer to the work of historian Kenneth W. Jones. In particular, see his "Religious Identity and the Indian Census," in N. Gerald Barrier, ed., The Census in British India: New Perspectives (New Delhi: Manohar, 1981), 73-101; his "The Negative Component of Hindu Consciousness," Indo-British Review, 19, 1 (1991?), 57-72; his chapter in Robert Frykenberg, ed., Delhi Through the Ages (Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1986). In addition, there is relevant material in his volume in the New Cambridge History of India series, titled Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India (Cambridge, 1989) and in his early work Arya Dharm: Hindu Consciousness in 19th-Century Punjab (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1976; repr. by Manohar in Delhi). Theodore Wright, Jr., also has a very useful article on the subject of communal fears based on census/population data, but at the moment the reference eludes me. In short, there is a wealth (or glut) of scholarly material relevant to the specific topic of birth-rate and to the more general theme of communalism. For readers who are interested but have no background, I recommend The Politics on India since Independence by Paul Brass in the New Cambridge History of India series (2nd ed; Cambridge, 1994) and Dutch scholar Peter van der Veer's Religious Nationalism: Hindus and Muslims in India (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1994). There are also several useful chapters by Daniel Gold and others in the volumes edited by Martin Marty and Scott Appleby in the so-called "fundamentalism" series that has been published in recent years. Finally, sound scholarly work on this and closely related topics has been going on for at least three decades. Some of the best current work, to which I would be glad to direct interested inquirers, is now being done by scholars in India, e.g., Gyanendra Pandey and others. It is a vital and dangerous theme, and seems to me to call for measured doses of serious engagement along with light-hearted humor -- such as was contributed by N. S. Raja. Gene R. Thursby University of Florida P.O. Box 117410, 125 Dauer Hall Gainesville, FL 32611-7410 USA From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Dec 13 17:48:54 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 17:48:54 +0000 Subject: old/new translations Message-ID: <161227022124.23782.8555049330859676520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU said: > Nobody would dare to publish a popular math book where pi = 3.41 or 2.9. > Why is this (GI) procedure possible in Indology? I don't want to make too much of this, but choosing the value of pi is a particularly good counter-analogy to the point of view that measurable precision is achievable in the act of translation. Pi is, after all, one of the few special numbers that cannot actually be written down, or given a precise value, except symbolically. It is irrational (sensu stricto), a realization that was a major blow to Platonic philosophy and -- along with the discovery of the irrational relation between the side and the diameter of a square -- rocked ancient Greek thinking to its foundations. As with translation, it is much more important to know what pi *means* symbolically that to know its value. In a certain sense, we actually cannot know its value: it never comes to a closure. But we can certainly know symbolically what pi is: the number of diameters in a circumference. Also on the point of science and precision, lest anyone think that a "real scientist" would necessarily value precision above all else, I would refer interested readers to the paper "Humanism and technical precision: a study of personal responsibility" by the great historian of astronomy, Willy Hartner. It is published as the fist paper in volume two of his collected papers, _Oriens-Occidens_, ed. Y. Maeyama (Hildesheim, Zuerich, N. York: Georg Olms Verlag, 1984). Written just after the second world war, I believe, it grapples intelligently with very difficult issues of moral responsibility in the field of academic and humanistic work, and in particular with the profoundly negative possibilities that may exist in an over-zealous concern for scientific precision. Hartner was perfectly capable of appreciating scientific precision: many of his articles are on the history of mathematics and astronomy. In fact, it is *because* of his appreciation of the possibilities and implications of precision that he is able to argue cogently that there is a time when personal creativity and freedom is more important that precision, even scientific precision. It's worth reading. [I've just deleted a citation I thought I would type from page [16] of this article; one really has to read the whole article to get the flavour of it.] Dominik Wujastyk From chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr Thu Dec 14 00:22:02 1995 From: chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr (chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 01:22:02 +0100 Subject: Renou conference programme (Paris, 1996 january 25-26-27) Message-ID: <161227022137.23782.10084636861530554771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As already announced in a previous message, there will be a conference next month in Paris. Here is the detailed program. - Jean-Luc Chevillard CNRS (URA 381) - Universite' Paris 7 ******************************************************** ******************************************************** COLLOQUE INTERNATIONAL: Langue, style et structure dans le monde indien. Colloque international pour le centenaire de la naissance de Louis Renou (1896-1966) du 25 au 27 janvier 1996 Ecole Normale Supe'rieure 48, bld Jourdan, 75014 Paris Salle Jourdan (Entre'e libre) Comite' d'organisation: Nalini Balbir [Fax: (33) (1) 46 26 38 24 ] Jean-Luc Chevillard [E-mail: chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr OR: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr ] Georges-Jean Pinault ******************************* MARDI 25 JANVIER 1996 (9h-13h)* ******************************* Etudes ve'diques* ***************** Prof. Tatjana Y. Elizarenkova (Academie des Sciences, Institut d'e'tudes orientales, Moscou) Language and style of the R.gveda in connection with the Soma problem. Prof. Stephanie W. Jamison (Harvard University) _Vr.tra et Vr.thragna_ and _La structure du kaavya_: some intersections. Prof. Georges-J. Pinault (Universite' Clermont-2, EPHE IVe sect.) La base radicale _sat-_ et la notion de loi dans les hymnes ve'diques. Prof. Asko Parpola (Universite' d'Helsinki) On the _Upagranthasuutra_ of the _Saamavada_. Prof. Charles Malamoud (EPHE Ve sect.) Les noms de parente' chez les dieux ve'diques: proble`me de vocabulaire. Dr. Shyam Kishore Lal (CAS Poona, Univ. Paris 3) A propos of the critical edition (VSM) of the R.gveda. ************************************* JEUDI 25 JANVIER 1996 (14H30--18H45)* ************************************* Tradition grammaticale indienne* ******************************** Prof. Madhav M. Deshpande (Ann Arbor University) The Vedic traditions and the origins of grammatical analysis. Prof. Kamaleshwar Bhattacharya (CNRS, URA 1058) Sur la base grammaticale de la pense'e indienne. Prof. Saroja Bhate, (Poona University) Interpretation of science: indian grammatical approach. Prof. Johannes Bronkhorst (Universite' de Lausanne) Upanis.ad-s and grammar: on the meaning of _anuvyaakhyaana_ Prof. Pierre-Sylvain Filiozat (EPHE IVe sect.) La conception de l'image divine dans le Mahaabhaas.ya de Patanjali. Prof. M. David Seyfort Ruegg (SOAS, London) On the Indo-Tibetan grammatical and lexicographical traditions. Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS - Univ. Paris 7, URA 381) Liens de la tradition grammaticale tamoule avec la tradition d'expression indo-aryenne. ************************************** VENDREDI 26 JANVIER 1996 (9H30-12H45)* ************************************** Morphologie et lexicographie* ***************************** Prof. Nalini Balbir (Universite' Paris3, Institut Universitaire de France) Survivances et remodelages dans la morphologie moyen-indienne. Prof. Peter Schreiner (Universite' de Zurich) On creating, formatting and working with a first electronic Sanskrit dictionary. Prof. Minoru Hara (Universite' de Tokyo) Sanskrit _aanr.n.ya_ Dr. Jean Fezas (CNRS, URA 1058) _S'us'ruus.aa_: obe'issance, devoir conjugal ou raison du beau-pe`re ? Prof. Bruno Dagens (Universite' Paris 3) Le temple corps du dieu. *************************************** VENDREDI 26 JANVIER 1996 (14H30-16H30)* *************************************** Morphologie et lexicographie (suite)* ************************************* Dr Edith Nolot (Pali Text Society) Proble`mes de lexicographie des textes de Vinaya. Dr Petra Kieffer-Pu"lz (Go"ttingen) The meaning of _maalaka_ / _maal.a(ka) in Pali. Prof. Colette Caillat (Universite' Paris 3, Acade'mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres) Variantes et transmission du canon jaina. ********************************** SAMEDI 27 JANVIER 1996 (9H30-13H)* ********************************** Poe'sie et formes des textes* ***************************** Prof. Marie-Claude Porcher (Universite' Paris 3) Figures et discours e'pique. Sylvain Brocquet (URA 1058, Paris) Strate'gie du jeu de mot dans le kaavya des pane'gyriques e'pigraphiques. Dr Philippe Benoi^t (Univ. Paris 3) Les saisons dans le Raamaayan.a et le kaavya. Prof. Giuliano Boccali (Univ. Venise) Les images de la saison des pluies dans les poe`mes d'As'vaghos.a. Prof. Siegfried Lienhard (Univ. Stockholm) Lucky numbers in ancient Indian literature. From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Wed Dec 13 16:32:30 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 01:32:30 +0900 Subject: grammaticality (was old/new translations) Message-ID: <161227022120.23782.2574929220871304715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At he risk of unduly repeating myself - No doubt that a translation of a vocative with "you are my man", or something along these lines, is wrong. This was quoted as one instance of grammatically incorrect translation, by M. Witzel, who, throughout his recent "let's come back to the initial discussion"-posting, stresses grammatical correctness as a primary goal or prerequisite for translations. I would agree with Stephen Phillips that grammar is "not quite the constant that might be supposed". But to explain better what I already tried to explain many times before, consider his example: >mahati vAyau udbhUta-rUpa-abhAvasya, kusume >saurabhA-abhAvasya, guDe tiktatva-abhAvasya vA na >cakSur-AdinA grahaH, api tu yogya-anupalabdhyA so 'numIyate\ | > >Concerning air as a gross element (and not the atoms), there is an absence >of manifest color, but that is not grasped by the visual organ. Rather, we >know this through inference based on the fact that color is in no way >perceived and that we would perceive it if it were present in air. Similarly >concerning an absence of a fragrance in a flower and the absence of bitter >taste in sugar. (CLASSICAL INDIAN METAPHYSICS, p. 261) {...} >Arguably, I may have taken too many liberties here, >with insufficient effort to mirror the Sanskrit syntax. Nevertheless, I would >argue that the translation captures literally GaGgeza's meaning. The problems I see in that translation: - translating "there is an absence of manifest colour, but that..." misplaces the emphasis. The main statement of the original text is "the absence of manifest colour is not grasped by the visual organ". There is no initial statement propounding the EXISTENCE (or occurrence or whatever you choose to say) of manifest colour in air. Consequently, the rather artificial introduction "concerning..." becomes superfluous - "the absence of...in air, when it is a gross element (and not when it has atomic form).." does the job. Also, the "concerning..." obliterates the fact that the original enumerates three cases with precisely the same syntactic form. - Ignorant of the immediate context, it is hard to say whether the three cases (absence of manifest colour in air, fragrance in a flower and bitter taste in sugar) are located at the same level, or whether the first is in focus and the two other ones are only added as examples (the position of the "vA" would support the latter interpretation). If the latter possibility holds, the quoted translation obliterates the fact that the examples are interspersed in the main statement. "The absence of manifest colour...- just like the absence of fragrance... -" seems better to me, for it captures the rhetorical flow (yes!) of the argument. At any rate, I find it neither necessary, nor helpful, to move out the two other cases from the middle of the statements to its very end. This "moving" also results in an obvious violation of the original: AdinA (cakSurAdinA) is left untranslated, because "Adi" refers to smell and taste, which have, at this point, not yet been introduced in the translation. - "based on the fact that color is in no way perceived and that we would perceive it if it were present in air" is a nonsensical translation for "yogyanupalabdhyA". Obviously, the translator tried to clarify the concept "yogyAnupalabdhi" by inserting its presuppositions in the translation, but then, that's not a translation, but a clear-cut explanation/interpretation. Moreover, "yogyanupalabdhi" is a technical term, and this technicality should be preserved in the translation - explain the rest in foot-notes, if necessary. The problem of this translation, thus, is not that it insufficiently "mirrors" the syntax, as Stephen Phillips feared, but that it does not capture the progress of the argument and, in general, represents a commentarial re-phrasing rather than a genuine translation. In view of this example, I would consider "correct grammar" to be a matter of the respective function of linguistic items rather than a simply formal requirement. If a genitive fulfills the function of the logical subject of a sentence, it is legitimate to translate it as whatever is deemed appropriate to express the logical subject in the target-language. If a certain tense expresses the function of "has happened a long time ago" in the source-language, it is legitimate to add corresponding adverbs in the target-language, if the latter lacks a tense with a corresponding function. Again, what Witzel terms "correct grammar" could be rephrased as "appropriateness in pragmatic preconditions". >Moreover, grammar is not quite so important as some would make out, in >another way, too: people commonly understand ungrammatical constructions. This is an altogether different understanding of "correct grammar" than the one M. Witzel applied: He referred to a "relational grammaticality", viz., that the grammar of the translation shall not violate the grammar of the original. Searle et al., however, refer to grammaticality as a property of one, and only one language, not in relation to another - the sentence "you are my man" is grammatical in English, but not grammatically correct as a translation of the Vedic vocative _viira_. As for further discussions, it would probably be useful to specify text-types - Navya-Nyaaya-translation is just not as susceptible to the same translation-problems as Vedic Hymns... Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Thu Dec 14 09:50:20 1995 From: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za (Pratap Kumar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:50:20 +0200 Subject: Playing the "PC" Card Message-ID: <161227022144.23782.12954152607625215950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, vidya wrote: > Like it or not, differences in religion did and continue to play significant > roles in invasion. I don't think one could disagree with the above statement made by Vidya. However, Dr. Tartakov's point, if I understood well, is not to dispute whether religious factors went into the war or not, but rather to point out the dangers involved in interpreting wars and invasions primarily as religious ones. I think, in the so called "Muslim invasions" of India, there are more political and economic interests at stake than religious. One of the main reasons why temples became potential targets of attack by the invading groups in the medieval times and later on is that they (temples) were also storehouses of wealth and served as treasuries. This is true of many Buddhist monasteries in China and elsewhere. I think in the contemporary discourse it would help us understand history better if we are open to many more variables than jut the religious ones. I am myself uncomfortable with the fact that much of Indias ancient and medieval history was approached from the religious angle and hence the ideas such as "Glorious period of Hinduism in the Gupta period" "the decay of Hindu religion" , the "Muslim invasion" and so on. It is time that we take a good look at some of our constructions of history in general. Pratap Kumar From lorenzen at colmex.mx Thu Dec 14 20:05:08 1995 From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 14:05:08 -0600 Subject: Conversions and religious conflicts Message-ID: <161227022149.23782.2353287582466763572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Among the lesser known articles on the topics of conversions to Islam and Hindu/Hindu/Jain/Buddhist conflicts, some members of the list might take a look at three that I once had something to do with: 1. My "Warrior Ascetics in Indian History" (Jour. Am. Or. Soc., 98,1 [1978]:61-75). 2. N. Levtzion's "Conversion under Muslim domination" in my (ed.), Religious Change and Cultural Domination, pp. 19-38 (Mexico, 1981). 3. S.A.A. Rizvi's "Islamization in the Indian subcontinent" in the previous, pp. 39-60. David Lorenzen El Colegio de Mexico Camino al Ajusco 20 Mexico, D.F. 01000 Mexico From Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Thu Dec 14 14:08:30 1995 From: Jayant.B.Bapat at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 14:08:30 +0000 Subject: Saivism in Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227022139.23782.8835274467525234236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear all There was little response to my request a few days ago about the spread of Non-Lingayat Saivism in Maharashtra. Someone has just pointed out to me that my mail was too vague. So let me spell out exactly what I am looking for: My e-mail re. Saivism was deliberately vague. I thought that that way the responses will not be limited. I see two kinds of Saivas in Maharashtra: the Lingayats and the others. The latter include Brahmins, the Gurav and non-Brahmins such as the worshippers of Khandoba etc. It is this non-Lingayat Saivism that I am interested in. It is not at all clear to me as to which brand of Saivism the Marathi brahmins for instance represent. They show no Agama tradition like the Southerners and they do not have any oral or textual traditions to put them into any category of Saivism. How did this come about in Maharashtra? How did Saivism spread in there? I am well aware of the work of Lorenzen and also the works on Lingayats which are quite a few. However there seems to be virtually nothing on the non-Lingayat Saivism of the Deccan. Some are said to belong to the Nath tradition but once again, we suffer from the lack of concrete information. The late Gunther Sontheimer did publish quite a bit on village Saivism such as the Khandoba cult. But where did the middle-class and Brahminic Saivism come from? I would be most grateful for any help. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From magier at columbia.edu Thu Dec 14 21:57:09 1995 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:57:09 -0500 Subject: CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227022142.23782.2116312961575344654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR of The South Asia Gopher. Please contact event organizers directly if you need further information. Thank you. David Magier --------------- COLLOQUE INTERNATIONAL: Langue, style et structure dans le monde indien. Colloque international pour le centenaire de la naissance de Louis Renou (1896-1966) du 25 au 27 janvier 1996 Ecole Normale Supe'rieure 48, bld Jourdan, 75014 Paris Salle Jourdan (Entre'e libre) Comite' d'organisation: Nalini Balbir [Fax: (33) (1) 46 26 38 24 ] Jean-Luc Chevillard [E-mail: chevilla at linguist.jussieu.fr OR: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr ] Georges-Jean Pinault ******************************* MARDI 25 JANVIER 1996 (9h-13h)* ******************************* Etudes ve'diques* ***************** Prof. Tatjana Y. Elizarenkova (Academie des Sciences, Institut d'e'tudes orientales, Moscou) Language and style of the R.gveda in connection with the Soma problem. Prof. Stephanie W. Jamison (Harvard University) _Vr.tra et Vr.thragna_ and _La structure du kaavya_: some intersections. Prof. Georges-J. Pinault (Universite' Clermont-2, EPHE IVe sect.) La base radicale _sat-_ et la notion de loi dans les hymnes ve'diques. Prof. Asko Parpola (Universite' d'Helsinki) On the _Upagranthasuutra_ of the _Saamavada_. Prof. Charles Malamoud (EPHE Ve sect.) Les noms de parente' chez les dieux ve'diques: proble`me de vocabulaire. Dr. Shyam Kishore Lal (CAS Poona, Univ. Paris 3) A propos of the critical edition (VSM) of the R.gveda. ************************************* JEUDI 25 JANVIER 1996 (14H30--18H45)* ************************************* Tradition grammaticale indienne* ******************************** Prof. Madhav M. Deshpande (Ann Arbor University) The Vedic traditions and the origins of grammatical analysis. Prof. Kamaleshwar Bhattacharya (CNRS, URA 1058) Sur la base grammaticale de la pense'e indienne. Prof. Saroja Bhate, (Poona University) Interpretation of science: indian grammatical approach. Prof. Johannes Bronkhorst (Universite' de Lausanne) Upanis.ad-s and grammar: on the meaning of _anuvyaakhyaana_ Prof. Pierre-Sylvain Filiozat (EPHE IVe sect.) La conception de l'image divine dans le Mahaabhaas.ya de Patanjali. Prof. M. David Seyfort Ruegg (SOAS, London) On the Indo-Tibetan grammatical and lexicographical traditions. Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS - Univ. Paris 7, URA 381) Liens de la tradition grammaticale tamoule avec la tradition d'expression indo-aryenne. ************************************** VENDREDI 26 JANVIER 1996 (9H30-12H45)* ************************************** Morphologie et lexicographie* ***************************** Prof. Nalini Balbir (Universite' Paris3, Institut Universitaire de France) Survivances et remodelages dans la morphologie moyen-indienne. Prof. Peter Schreiner (Universite' de Zurich) On creating, formatting and working with a first electronic Sanskrit dictionary. Prof. Minoru Hara (Universite' de Tokyo) Sanskrit _aanr.n.ya_ Dr. Jean Fezas (CNRS, URA 1058) _S'us'ruus.aa_: obe'issance, devoir conjugal ou raison du beau-pe`re ? Prof. Bruno Dagens (Universite' Paris 3) Le temple corps du dieu. *************************************** VENDREDI 26 JANVIER 1996 (14H30-16H30)* *************************************** Morphologie et lexicographie (suite)* ************************************* Dr Edith Nolot (Pali Text Society) Proble`mes de lexicographie des textes de Vinaya. Dr Petra Kieffer-Pu"lz (Go"ttingen) The meaning of _maalaka_ / _maal.a(ka) in Pali. Prof. Colette Caillat (Universite' Paris 3, Acade'mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres) Variantes et transmission du canon jaina. ********************************** SAMEDI 27 JANVIER 1996 (9H30-13H)* ********************************** Poe'sie et formes des textes* ***************************** Prof. Marie-Claude Porcher (Universite' Paris 3) Figures et discours e'pique. Sylvain Brocquet (URA 1058, Paris) Strate'gie du jeu de mot dans le kaavya des pane'gyriques e'pigraphiques. Dr Philippe Benoi^t (Univ. Paris 3) Les saisons dans le Raamaayan.a et le kaavya. Prof. Giuliano Boccali (Univ. Venise) Les images de la saison des pluies dans les poe`mes d'As'vaghos.a. Prof. Siegfried Lienhard (Univ. Stockholm) Lucky numbers in ancient Indian literature. **************************************************** >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 13 95 Dec EST 23:17:11 Date: 13 Dec 95 23:17:11 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: bliss of translation Merry Christmas everyone and a Happy New Year 1996. Hans-Georg Turstig IN A TOKYO HOTEL: Is forbidden to steal hotel towels please. If you are not person to do such thing is please not to read notis. IN ANOTHER JAPANESE HOTEL ROOM: Please to bathe inside the tub. IN A ZURICH HOTEL: Because of the impropriety of entertaining guests of the opposite sex in the bedroom, it is suggested that the lobby be used for this purpose. IN A BANGKOK DRY CLEANERS: Drop your trousers here for best results. IN A BUCHAREST HOTEL LOBBY: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable. A SIGN POSTED IN THE BLACK FOREST: It is strictly forbidden on our black forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men and women, live together in one tent unless they are married with each other for that purpose. IN A HOTEL IN ATHENS: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 A.M. daily. ADVERTISEMENT FOR DONKEY RIDES IN THAILAND: Would you like to ride on your own ass? AT A BUDAPEST ZOO: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, please give it to the guard on duty. ON THE BOX OF A CLOCKWORK TOY MADE IN HONG KONG: Guaranteed to work throughout its useful life. IN A BANGKOK TEMPLE: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man. IN A TOKYO BAR: Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts. IN A JAPANESE HOTEL: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid. IN A RHODES TAILOR SHOP: Order your summers suit. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation. IN A PARIS HOTEL ELEVATOR: Please leave your values at the front desk. IN A BELGRADE HOTEL ELEVATOR: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is then going alphabetically by national order. IN THE LOBBY OF A MOSCOW HOTEL ACROSS THE STREET FROM A RUSSIAN ORTHODOX MONASTERY: You are welcome to visit the cemetery where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists and writers are buried daily except Thursday. ON THE MENU OF A POLISH HOTEL: Salad a firm's own make; limpid red beet soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion. IN AN AUSTRIAN HOTEL CATERING TO SKIERS: Not to perambulate the corridors in the hours of repose in the boots of ascension. IN A YUGOSLAVIAN HOTEL: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid. IN A HONG KONG SUPERMARKET: For your convenience, we recommend courageous, efficient self-service. IN A CZECHOSLOVAKIAN TOURIST AGENCY: Take one of our horse- driven city tours - we guarantee no miscarriages. DETOUR SIGN IN KYUSHI, JAPAN: Stop - Drive Sideways. IN A NORWEGIAN COCKTAIL LOUNGE: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar. IN THE WINDOW OF A SWEDISH FURRIER: Fur coats made for ladies from their own skin. FROM A JAPANESE INFORMATION BOOKLET ABOUT USING A HOTEL AIR CONDITIONER: Cooles and Heates - If you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself. IN A TOKYO SHOP: Our nylons cost more than common, but you'll find they are best in the long run. IN A VIENNA HOTEL: In case of fire, do your utmost to alarm the hotel porter. TWO SIGNS IN A MAJORCAN SHOP ENTRANCE: English well talking. From indobib at indoger.unizh.ch Thu Dec 14 15:58:51 1995 From: indobib at indoger.unizh.ch (indobib at indoger.unizh.ch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:58:51 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <161227022147.23782.682383935866523660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am happy to announce that as of Dec. 14, 1995 my work on an electronic version of the Sanskrit-German Dictionary by Klaus Mylius has reached the point where I shall have to stop. The publisher does not allow me to put PESCHMYL ("Peter Schreiner's Mylius") on a server for general access but wants everybody who gets a copy to sign a statement concerning the non-commercial, private use for research purpose. I shall have to experiment with this situation and ask those colleagues who want a copy under this condition to send a message to PESCH at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH Any advice as to how to deal with this situation is welcome. I have no commercial interest in the matter and shun any administrative hassle. Klaus Mylius has agreed to making the files freely accessible to the academic community; yet I do not want to be sued by 'Langenscheidt'. Merry Christmas to those who enjoy to celebrate it and a Happy New Year to everybody. Peter Schreiner From 00087979 at bigred.unl.edu Fri Dec 15 07:39:12 1995 From: 00087979 at bigred.unl.edu (Chad Steven Lauritsen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 01:39:12 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit dictionary Message-ID: <161227022151.23782.7110075753847736337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ladies and Gentlemen: Are any of you aware of any Sanskrit resources available in electronic format, particularly a lexicon/dictionary? Please respond if you have any information--your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Chad S. Lauritsen Linguistics Student University of Nebraska, Lincoln Lincoln, Nebraska U.S.A. -- "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose." --Jim Elliot, missionary to Ecuador Chad S. Lauritsen Lincoln,68502 00087979 at bigred.unl.edu 1701 S. 24th St. Apt. 2 (402) 438-4005 From athr at loc.gov Fri Dec 15 15:04:05 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:04:05 -0500 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <161227022156.23782.11084652826434425107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How do you think the publisher would respond to a request from a Sanskritist-librarian to have it on a p.c. at his work, but NOT hooked up to the library's mainframe, so that it cannot be consulted by people in other parts of the library or people hooking up to the library's databases from offsite? I ask before I send the requested email to the publisher so I won't get turned down or alarm them, and send this message to the list as well as to Peter Schreiner because it may be of interest to other librarians on the list. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress On Fri, 15 Dec 1995 indobib at indoger.unizh.ch wrote: > I am happy to announce that as of Dec. 14, 1995 my work on an electronic > version of the Sanskrit-German Dictionary by Klaus Mylius has reached the > point where I shall have to stop. The publisher does not allow me to put > PESCHMYL ("Peter Schreiner's Mylius") on a server for general access but > wants everybody who gets a copy to sign a statement concerning the > non-commercial, private use for research purpose. > I shall have to experiment with this situation and ask those colleagues > who want a copy under this condition to send a message to > PESCH at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH > Any advice as to how to deal with this situation is welcome. I have no > commercial interest in the matter and shun any administrative hassle. > Klaus Mylius has agreed to making the files freely accessible to the > academic community; yet I do not want to be sued by 'Langenscheidt'. > > Merry Christmas to those who enjoy to celebrate it and a Happy New Year > to everybody. > > Peter Schreiner > > From athr at loc.gov Fri Dec 15 15:16:48 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:16:48 -0500 Subject: home for pd Pali Canon? Message-ID: <161227022158.23782.12841693668559152075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can't commit the Library of Congress to anything but I think it might indeed be interestedin mounting it on our Web site. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > I have recently been in contact with Ven. Mettavihari of IBRIC in Sri Lanka > (see below). They have a draft version of the Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka > available in machine readable form. The BJT (originally published by the > government of Ceylon in Sinhala script) is perhaps the best of the post-war > editions of the Pali Canon. > > The good news is that it will be entirely public domain. At present there > are still many errors, but the editing process is continuing and it may be > hoped that these can be eliminated in due course. The page numbers of the > PTS edition have been added in some cases and this too is in progress. > There are some questions too as to what formats it will eventually be > available in. > > Nonetheless this is excellent news and a major step forward in Pali > studies. I understand that IBRIC might be willing to make available a copy > to an appropriate web site from which it could be downloaded freely. So I > thought I would ask here if we have an appropriate location ? Even in its > current state it would be well-worthwhile to have it available. > > IBRIC stands for International Buddhist Research and Info Centre. It was > founded by Ven. Dhammavihari, formerly Professor Jotiya Dhirasekera. > > The proof-reading is presently being carried out by Buddhist monks of the > Maharagama Bhikkhu Training Centre under the guidance of Ven. Dhammavihari. > > Lance Cousins > > MANCHESTER, UK > Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk > > > > From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Fri Dec 15 10:59:54 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:59:54 +0000 Subject: home for pd Pali Canon? Message-ID: <161227022154.23782.2209522866220284062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have recently been in contact with Ven. Mettavihari of IBRIC in Sri Lanka (see below). They have a draft version of the Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka available in machine readable form. The BJT (originally published by the government of Ceylon in Sinhala script) is perhaps the best of the post-war editions of the Pali Canon. The good news is that it will be entirely public domain. At present there are still many errors, but the editing process is continuing and it may be hoped that these can be eliminated in due course. The page numbers of the PTS edition have been added in some cases and this too is in progress. There are some questions too as to what formats it will eventually be available in. Nonetheless this is excellent news and a major step forward in Pali studies. I understand that IBRIC might be willing to make available a copy to an appropriate web site from which it could be downloaded freely. So I thought I would ask here if we have an appropriate location ? Even in its current state it would be well-worthwhile to have it available. IBRIC stands for International Buddhist Research and Info Centre. It was founded by Ven. Dhammavihari, formerly Professor Jotiya Dhirasekera. The proof-reading is presently being carried out by Buddhist monks of the Maharagama Bhikkhu Training Centre under the guidance of Ven. Dhammavihari. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From pm9k at poe.acc.virginia.edu Fri Dec 15 17:46:15 1995 From: pm9k at poe.acc.virginia.edu (Philip McEldowney) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 12:46:15 -0500 Subject: Instructor of Hindi/Urdu at U. of Virginia - Announcement Message-ID: <161227022161.23782.13852465899343423387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INSTRUCTOR OF HINDI/URDU LANGUAGES Applications are invited for a full-time INSTRUCTOR position in the Division of Asian and Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures at the UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA in Charlottesville, Virginia to TEACH HINDI AND URDU languages starting in the FALL of 1996. Responsibilities include teaching beginning levels of Hindi and Urdu. Demonstrated teaching skills and near-native fluency are desirable. Salary commensurate with experience and qualifications. The position is for one year with the possibility of renewal. Send letter of appplication, curriculum vitae and three letters of reference to: Chair, Hindi/Urdu Search Committee, Asian and Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures, University of Virginia, BO27 Cabell Hall, Charlottesville, VA 22903. Further information can be obtained by call (804) 982-2304. The deadline for applications Thursday, February 29, 1996. The University of Virginia is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Dec 15 19:05:36 1995 From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 13:05:36 -0600 Subject: grammaticality (was old/new translations) (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022163.23782.8835064383163901224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: Birgit Kellner Subject: Re: grammaticality (was old/new translations) On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Birgit Kellner wrote: > Clearly, one has to distinguish philosophical presuppositions from > textual/pragmatic presuppositions - while the whole hypothetical clause ("if > it were present...") in the above-quoted translation is certainly an element > of GaGgeZa's philosophy, it is not an element of the pragmatic > presuppositions of the text. Let's put it that way: If GaGgeZa had wanted to > express the whole yogyAnupalabdhi-queue, nothing could have stopped him. But > he didn't. Hence, it's not an element of the text (to make this argument > more precise, one would have to involve a few further assumptions, but I > would like to skip them for sake of brevity). > There is a false distinction current in linguistics: pragmatics/semantics. I defy you to produce an intelligible translation of just about anything philosophical, and probably much else, without relying on pragmatic -- to include background, previously explicitly discussed, philosophic -- suppositions. DISCOURSE CONTEXT disambiguates. What we want is a translation that preserves discourse-relative meaning. Gangesa did not need to elabolate yogya-anupalabdhi, because he presupposes that his audience will understand what he fully means. Stephen Phillips From JHUBBARD at ernestine.smith.edu Fri Dec 15 19:42:42 1995 From: JHUBBARD at ernestine.smith.edu (Jamie HUBBARD) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:42:42 -0400 Subject: TrueType fonts w/ Sanskrit & Japanese diacritics Message-ID: <161227022169.23782.9871299043098138026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just finished up (I think) a package of TrueType fonts that include the diacritics needed for Sanskrit and Japanese romanization; these fonts are based on the MS Arial and Times New Roman fonts and coded according to the CS standard adopted at the 8th World Sanskrit Congress (Vienna, 1990); they include regular, italic, bold, and bold italic type faces. I have made both Windows versions and Mac suitcases and put them on my ftp site (jhubbard.smith.edu) for anonymous logins (they are in the root of the /pub directory when you log in). The files are: ttskrit2.sit a "stuffed" archive for the mac ttskrit2.exe a "self-extracting .zip file" for the pc (A set of HP Laserjet-compatable fonts w/ WordPerfect 5.1/6.0 printer files, etc. is also available here as wpskrit2.exe.) My ftp site is flakey at best, and when I am not around to re-boot the system after a crash it can become unavailable, so no guarantees; I will try to keep an eye on it. Hopefully the benevolent folks at Indology and Coombspapers will grab 'em up and make them more widely accessible at their ftp/gopher/www sites. I hope that these fonts help out somehow or another . . . Jamie From andersonl at Meena.CC.URegina.CA Fri Dec 15 23:32:25 1995 From: andersonl at Meena.CC.URegina.CA (andersonl at Meena.CC.URegina.CA) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 17:32:25 -0600 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227022171.23782.16993964325565431723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for sanskrit materials on Sarasvati. Can anyone help. Thanks. andersle at max.cc.uregina.ca From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Fri Dec 15 19:36:10 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 19:36:10 +0000 Subject: home for pd Pali Canon? Message-ID: <161227022165.23782.8557702628973582018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:09 15/12/95 GMT, L.S.Cousins wrote: >to an appropriate web site from which it could be downloaded freely. So I >thought I would ask here if we have an appropriate location ? Even in its >current state it would be well-worthwhile to have it available. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics would be happy to host this on our Web sites in the USA and UK. Damien Keown From HP at soas.ac.uk Fri Dec 15 20:27:17 1995 From: HP at soas.ac.uk (HP at soas.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 20:27:17 +0000 Subject: New issue of South Asia Research Message-ID: <161227022167.23782.4681316328043921770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION FOR SOUTH ASIA RESEARCH Dear Friends and Colleagues, The latest issue of SOUTH ASIA RESEARCH (Vol. 15 No 2) is now available. This announcement provides information about the contents of this issue and how to subscribe to the journal. SOUTH ASIA RESEARCH is an interdisciplinary journal that is concerned with the history, ecology, anthropology, architecture, languages, literatures, legal systems, religions and visual arts of South Asia (the Indian subcontinent). It was established at the School for Oriental and African Studies in London in 1980 and is published twice a year, in May and November. The primary aim is to give rapid access to current research work, and on occasion the journal publishes the work of promising research students as well as established scholars. Special issues have also been devoted to particular conferences and workshops in the past. In addition to four articles per issue, plus conference reports and book reviews, the journal aims to publish interpretive essays that discuss in a more general manner the issues and problems that arise from research on South Asia. --------------Contents of Vol. 15 No. 2---------- CHRISTOPHER SHACKLE: "Between Scripture And Romance: The Yusuf-Zulaikha story in Panjabi" DENIS MATRINGE: "The Panjab and its Popular Culture in the Modern Panjabi Poetry of the 1920s and Early 1930s" ELEANOR NESBITT: "Panjabis in Britain: Cultural History and cultural Choices" PHILIPPA VAUGHAN: "The Mughal Garden at Hasan Abdal: A Unique Surviving Example of a 'Manzil' Bagh" --------------Contents of Vol. 15 No. 1---------- PHILIP DESAI: "Colonial and Indigenous Urban Morphologies in India" G.H.R. TILLOTSON: "Architecture and Anxiety: the problem of pastiche in recent Indian design" SANJOY BHATTACHARYA: "The Colonial State and the Communist Party of India 1942-45: a reappraisal" FREDERIQUE APFFEL-MARGLIN: "Gender and the Unitary Self: looking for the subaltern in coastal Orissa" BOOK REVIEWS "Communal Riots in Bengal, 1905-1947" by Suranjan Das "Public Health in British India: Anglo-Indian preventive medicine, 1859-1914" by Mark Harrison "Changing India: Bourgeois Revolution on the Subcontinent" by Robert W. Stern "The Cilappatikaram of Ilanko Atikal: An Epic of South India" translated by R. Parthesarathy "Tidings of the King: A Translation and Ethnohistorical Analysis of theRayavacakamu" by Phillip B. Wagoner "Shankara and Indian philosophy" by Natalia Isayeva "Claiming the High Ground: Sherpas, Subsistence, and Environmental Change in the Highest Himalaya" by Stanley F. Stevens "Bangladesh: Reflections on the Water" by James J. Novak "Hindu Children in Britain" by Robert Jackson and Eleanor Nesbitt --------------Contents of Vol. 14 No. 2----------------------------- W. H. McLEOD: "Cries of Outrage: History versus Tradition in the Study of the Sikh Community" MARZIA BALZANI and VARSHA JOSHI: "The Death of a Concubine's Daughter: Palace Manuscripts as a Source for the Study of the Rajput Elite" PETER SCHALK: "Women Fighters of the Liberation Tigers in Tamil Ilam. The Martial Feminism of Atell Palacinkam" KARIN KAPADIA: "Impure Women, Virtuous Men: Religion, Resistance and Gender" DENIS VIDAL, GILLES TARABOUT and ERIC MEYER: "On the Concepts of Violence and Non-Violence in Hinduism and Indian Society" BOOK REVIEWS "External Compulsions of South AsianPolitics" edited by Shelton U. "All the Mothers Are One. Hindu India and the Cultural Reshaping of Pschyoanalysis" by Stanley Kurtz. "Cassette Culture - Popular Music andTechnology in North India" by Peter Manuel. "Towards a New Formation; South Indian Society under Vijayanagar Rule" by Noboru Karashima. "Symbols of Substance; Court and State in Nayaka Period Tamil Nadu" by Velcheru Narayana Rao, David Shulman and Sanjay Subrahmanyam. "A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry (150 B.C. - pre-fifth/sixth century A.D.)" by V. S. Rajam. "The Emptiness of Emptiness, An Introduction to early Indian Madhyamika" by G. W. Huntington, Jr. with Geshe Namgyal Wangchen. "Fire of Bengal" by Hozsa Hajnocey (translated by Eva Wimmer and David Grant, edited by William Radice) ------------------------------------------------------------ Members of the Editorial Committee: Michael Hutt (Editor), Michael Anderson, David Arnold, Stuart Blackburn, Nigel Crook, Andrew Grout, Heidi Pauwels, Christopher Phinney, Peter Robb, David Taylor, Giles Tillotson. Corresponding Editors: Christopher A. Bayly (Cambridge), Indira Chowdhury Sengupta (Calcutta), Wendy Doniger (Chicago), Alan Entwistle (Seattle), Robert E. Frykenberg (Wisconsin), David Ludden (Philadelphia), Pratapadiya Pal (Los Angeles), Gloria Goodwin Raheja (Minneapolis), Barbara N. Ramusack (Cincinnati), Tanika Sarkar (Delhi), Sanjay Subrahmanyam (Delhi), Romila Thapar (Delhi), Gauri Viswanathan (New York), John Whelpton (Hong Kong) -------------------------------------------------------------- SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION Annual subscription is per volume (2 issues) Prices include air-speeded delivery to Australia, Canada, India, Japan, New Zealand and USA. Payment may be made by cheque or Eurocheque (payable to Oxford University Press), National Girobank (account 500 1056) credit card (Access, Visa, American Express, Diners' Club), or UNESCO coupons. Personal rates apply only when copies are sent to a private address and payment is made by a personal cheque or credit card. Institutional rates: Annual subscription: #28 in the UK and Europe, US$48 elsewhere Personal rates: Annual subscription: #15 in the UK and Europe, US$25 elsewhere, Back issues available. Subscribers in EC: Please either send details of sales tax (VAT) registration/exemption or add local sales tax to prices quoted. Subscribers in Canada: please add 7% GST to the prices quoted ******************************************** SOUTH ASIA RESEARCH order form ISNN 0262-7280 Please print, fill out and send to: Journals Marketing, Oxford University Press, Walton Street, Oxford, OX2 6DP, UK. (Tel: +44 (0) 1865 567677 Fax: +44 (0) 1865 267773) OR Journals Marketing, Oxford University Press, 2001 Evans Road, Cary, NC 27513, USA (Tel: 1 800 852 7323 OR +1 919 677 0977 Fax +1 919 677 1714) e-mail: jnlorders at oup.co.uk Volume 16, 1996 Subscription Rates (Prices are for two issues) Institutions: #28 / US$48 Individuals: #15 / US$25 (Please note: # sterling rates apply in Europe, US$ rates elsewhere) Please enter my/our subscription to SOUTH ASIA RESEARCH Name: Address: Post/Zip code Country 1) I enclose the correct remittance, a cheque / Eurocheque (payable to Oxford University Press) /UNESCO coupon for the amount of .... #/$ OR 2) Please debit my account (Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Diners' Card) for ... ....... #/$ Credit card number: Expiration Date Signature (If card address differs from delivery address please give details) Heidi Pauwels Lecturer in Hindi SOAS/ University of London hp at soas.ac.uk From kp at max.ee.lsu.edu Sat Dec 16 23:32:52 1995 From: kp at max.ee.lsu.edu (kp at max.ee.lsu.edu) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 17:32:52 -0600 Subject: Two questions Message-ID: <161227022175.23782.16738763944018464198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate it very much if someone could provide me the following information: 1. A source reference for the indentification of Mercury and Vishnu. I remember having seen it someplace but cannot find it now. 2. I believe a paper on Vedic astronomy by D. Frawley appeared in a journal called Indian Journal of History of Science sometime in late 1994 or 1995. I need the exact volume and page numbers for such an article. My library does not subscribe to the journal and with the exact reference I coould get the article on a inter-library loan. Thank you. Please email the information back to me at kp at max.ee.lsu.edu -K. Pandit From d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sun Dec 17 00:41:53 1995 From: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 19:41:53 -0500 Subject: home for pd Pali Canon? Message-ID: <161227022173.23782.770518569286088516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:10:03 GMT Lance Cousins wrote: >I have recently been in contact with Ven. Mettavihari of IBRIC in Sri Lanka >(see below). They have a draft version of the Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka >available in machine readable form. The BJT (originally published by the >government of Ceylon in Sinhala script) is perhaps the best of the post-war >editions of the Pali Canon. > >The good news is that it will be entirely public domain. [...] >I understand that IBRIC might be willing to make available a copy >to an appropriate web site from which it could be downloaded freely. So I >thought I would ask here if we have an appropriate location ? Even in its >current state it would be well-worthwhile to have it available. Dear Lance, I would want to know the size of the files before committing, but I think it would certainly be possible and very appropriate to mount a copy at the INDOLOGY Web/gopher/ftp site. This would be a splendid addition to the growing library of files already there. Perhaps you could keep me informed about developments, and the actual availability of the files. Dominik Dr Dominik Wujastyk From garzilli at shore.net Sun Dec 17 03:45:41 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 22:45:41 -0500 Subject: TrueType fonts w/ Sanskrit & Japanese diacritics Message-ID: <161227022177.23782.4214887708551600268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you. We will put the fonts on our FTP server in the next few days. ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india Dott. Enrica Garzilli http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/ http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ ******************************************** On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Jamie HUBBARD wrote: > I have just finished up (I think) a package of TrueType fonts that > include the diacritics needed for Sanskrit and Japanese romanization; > these fonts are based on the MS Arial and Times New Roman fonts and > coded according to the CS standard adopted at the 8th World Sanskrit > Congress (Vienna, 1990); they include regular, italic, bold, and bold > italic type faces. I have made both Windows versions and Mac suitcases > and put them on my ftp site (jhubbard.smith.edu) for anonymous logins > (they are in the root of the /pub directory when you log in). The files > are: > > ttskrit2.sit a "stuffed" archive for the mac > ttskrit2.exe a "self-extracting .zip file" for the pc > > (A set of HP Laserjet-compatable fonts w/ WordPerfect 5.1/6.0 printer > files, etc. is also available here as wpskrit2.exe.) My ftp site is > flakey at best, and when I am not around to re-boot the system after a > crash it can become unavailable, so no guarantees; I will try to keep an > eye on it. Hopefully the benevolent folks at Indology and Coombspapers > will grab 'em up and make them more widely accessible at their > ftp/gopher/www sites. > > I hope that these fonts help out somehow or another . . . > > > Jamie > > ****************************************************************************** "Sometimes I sit and think: why these people hate us so bad? I chalk it up to two things: jealousy and plain ignorance!" ****************************************************************************** From mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk Sun Dec 17 10:46:38 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 10:46:38 +0000 Subject: home for pd Pali Canon? Message-ID: <161227022178.23782.4236419885876616659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Allen Thrasher, Damien Keown and Dominik Wujastyk for their kind offers to host the BJ Tripitaka. I have communicated them to IBRIC and either they or I will get back to each of you in due course. I am not sure whether IBRIC will, understandably, wish to do more error-correcting before posting this. I will try to persuade them to post a preliminary version as soon as possible, however, as I think that even this will be extremely useful. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Sun Dec 17 18:13:21 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 13:13:21 -0500 Subject: New Journal (fwd) Message-ID: <161227022182.23782.2175606070440144947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought members of this list may be interested in the following information (if it has not been posted by another member already). ----------------------------- INDO-JUDAIC STUDIES JOURNAL Co-editor Prof. Nathan Katz Dept. of Religious Studies Florida International University DM301A, Miami, FL 33199 "The Indo-Judaic Studies Journal is an annual academic journal published by the Society for Indo-Judaic Studies dedicated to analyzing the affinities and interactions between Indic and Judaic civilizations from the ancient through contemporary times. Each issue will feature the following: 1. New scholarly research into such areas as; comparative studies of Judaism and the religions of India, with attention to implications for the field of religious studies; historical studies of cultural and commercial links between Indian and Israel; social scientific studies of Jewish communities in India and Indian communities in Israel; comparative diaspora studies of Jewish and Indian communities, especially in North America; literature studies, including analyses of images of India in Jewish writings; political and scientific studies of diplomacy between India and Israel; approaches to secularism vs traditionalism in contemporary Indian and Israeli politics etc. (3 or 4 articles per issue) 2. Republication of pioneering Indo-Judaica, classical studies in the field which are not readily accessible, such as Kunst's study of comparative logic, or Mandelbaum's ethnographies of Cochin's Jews (one per issue) 3. Translations of primary documents such as the Urdu hagiography of Said Sarmad, or Hebrew travellers' accounts by Reinman, Saphir and Hillel, or Pierre Loti's French descriptions of Cochin's Jew Town, or such 'philo-Semitic' writings as Jamyang Norbu's Tibetan History of Israel (one per issue) 4. Translations of modern scholarship in Hebrew, Yiddish, Hindi, etc. (one per issue) 5. Interreligious / inter-ethnic dialogues, including theoretical aspects of dialogue as well as 'dialogue statements'. 6. Book reviews 7. News and notes. [The above information appeared in the IIAS Newsletter (International Institute for Asian Studies, Leiden, the Netherlands), Autumn 1995, p. 29]. Contributions may be directed to the editor mention at the beginning of this posting or to the co-editor: Prof. Braj Mohan Sinha, Dept. of Religious Studies University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Sask., S7N 0W0 Canada From BW3T at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA Sun Dec 17 20:12:15 1995 From: BW3T at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (SUJATA) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 15:12:15 -0500 Subject: Manimekhalai Canto XVIII Message-ID: <161227022184.23782.12716641142478739710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Canto II of the Buddhist epic Manimekhalai, Vasantamala, the heroine's companion condones Madhavi for having renounced her birthright as a dancer and for having chosen the monastic life instead. Vasantamala states: " For a girl destined by birth for art and pleasure to become an ascetic and mortify herself is an impious act...To act in defiance of the laws of the city is no virtue. Renounce this behaviour at once" (Shattan 5). Further on, Madhavi's mother vows to prevent her granddaughter, Manimekhalai from behaving as disgracefully as her mother. She declares: "If I do not succeed in accomplishing this mission, I deserve to suffer the fate of those that are thrown out of our caste, who are led around the dance floor with seven bricks on their head before being cast out, after which they are forever excluded from public meetings (Shattan 72). My question regarding the quote from Canto XVIII is, where would I be able to find more detailed information on this practice of ousting dancing girls from their caste? I would also like to know under what other circumstances might a dancing girl be barred from her social caste. If there is anyone who could point me in the direction of any sources regarding this topic, I would be most grateful. Thanking you in advance, Sujata Ghosh. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Sun Dec 17 18:00:10 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:00:10 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit Manuscript on the net Message-ID: <161227022180.23782.16876879046289681897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have made available on the INDOLOGY web page (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html) scanned images of a Sanskrit manuscript of the Isa Upanisad. I would welcome feedback. I have also added J D Smith's new Web page to the "general" page, as well as adding some new entries to the library page: the Gabriel service gives easy access to many European national libraries, and I have added Goettingen library. Enjoy! (Or, as was written on one of the Wellcome ratisastra MSS: "injoy!") Dominik From JHUBBARD at ernestine.smith.edu Mon Dec 18 15:27:16 1995 From: JHUBBARD at ernestine.smith.edu (Jamie HUBBARD) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:27:16 -0400 Subject: TrueType fonts w/ Sanskrit & Japanese diacritics Message-ID: <161227022188.23782.15898899473602275895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all. Some time ago Indology hosted a small thread of discussion about copyrights and fonts; having announced TrueType font availablity, some concern has again arisen about this subject. I didn't reply at the time of the original discussion but below is a text describing the US Copyright offical policy; I got it from a font source and from I can tell by monitoring the font news groups it is legit-- in any case, it has guided my approach (well, "information wants to be free" and "Steal This Book" have also influenced me a bit). Jamie Hubbard, Smith College =============================================== US COPYRIGHT OFFICE RULES FONT SOFTWARE NOT COPYRIGHTABLE A Victory for American Freedom of the Press. BELOW IS THE OFFICIAL SUMMARY of the US Copyright Office's September 1988 determination that font software is not copyrightable (For 6 pages of full text, see the Federal Register reference). This decision extended to font software the long-standing Copyright Office policy and clear intent of Congress that letterforms in general are not copyrightable. The implication is that font software in the form of bit maps, metric files, parametric outline descriptions, and so on may be freely copied; and that any copyright asserted by the originator is nonsense and in fact may endanger the copyright on associated software. The Copyright Office upholds the decision as necessary to freedom of the press, since if fonts were protected by copyright, virtually nothing could be copied since most documents use licensed fonts. It appears to me that computer users are not widely taking advantage of the benefits of this decision, probably because it has not gotten much publicity. Of course the font publishers charging as much as hundreds of dollars for a single font do not want you to know about the state of affairs. While fonts may be freely copied, some restrictions do apply to ancillary items. Computer programs to generate fonts ARE copyrightable like any ordinary software, except to the extent that they contain data for the fonts. Thus a font scaling program is copyrightable, but the font outlines used by such a program would not be, nor would the bit map or metrics output from the program. Another restriction arises when using trademarks like "Helvetica" without permission of the owner. For example, you can copy the Helvetica font but you cannot call it Helvetica, because that name happens to be a trademark. Perhaps users could standardize on some public-domain "code names" for the trademark names of popular fonts. I have seen some software publishers using their own names for "clone" font software with a note like, "similar to Helvetica" and a fine-print trademark acknowledgement. That is, they hint that you are getting Helvetica, while skirting the trademark issue with the "similarity" language. Or, they use a synonymous name (like "Swiss" for "Helvetica"). Whether these tricks would really protect you against trademark infringement if you tried to peddle third-party fonts is an unsettled matter. Still other restrictions on your copying font software apply if you have signed a license or other contract with the font publisher whereby you agreed to limit your copying of the fonts. Such a license might conceivably prevent you from copying or selling font software sold to you by given publisher. But anyone else whe has not signed such a contract and has gotten possession of a font could copy it freely, even if that publisher only distributes its fonts to licensees. The same would apply to attempts at trade secret protection, although it is hard to see how a font could be protected as a trade secrect since to use it is to disclose it. Bulletin board sysops probably should check the truth of what I am saying with a "competent legal advisor" before they start a bonanza of font uploading. Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. However, when you read the summary below and look up the full text in the Federal Register, I am confident you will agree that the decision is clear and direct to the effect that fonts may be freely copied. I hope that this will permit us as users to start sharing fonts through all convenient means. Richard Kinch Kinch Computer Company 501 S Meadow St Ithaca, NY 14850 Telephone (607) 273-0222 FAX (607) 273-0484 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From the Federal Register, Vol 53, No 189, Thursday, September 29, 1988. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright Office (Docket No. 86-4) Policy Decision on the Copyrightability of Digitized Typefaces. Agency: Copyright Office, Library of Congress. Action: Notice of policy decision. SUMMARY: The purpose of this notice is to inform the public that the Copyright Office has decided that digitized representations of typeface designs are not registrable under the Copyright Act because they do not constitute original works of authorship. The digitized representations of typefaces are neither original computer programs (as defined in 17 USC 101), nor original databases, nor any other original work of authorship. Registration will be made for original computer programs written to control the generic digitization process, but registration will not be made for the data that merely represents an electronic depiction of a particular typeface or individual letterforms. If this master computer program includes data that fixes or depicts a particular typeface, typefont, or letterform, the registration application must disclaim copyright in that uncopyrightable data. EFFECTIVE DATE: September 28, 1988. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Excerpts from the full text:] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...Variations of typographic ornamentation [or] "mere lettering" are not copyrightable.... "It is patent that typeface is an industrial design in which the design cannot exist independently and separately as a work of art." [Eltra Corp v. Ringer, 579 F.2d 294 (4th Cir. 1978)]. The decision in Eltra Corp. v. Ringer clearly comports with the intention of the Congress. Whether typeface designs should be protected by copyright was considered and specifically rejected by Congress in passing the Copyright Act of 1978. ...Before the advent of digitized typeface technology, arguments were made that, in creating new typeface designs, artists expended thousands of hours of effort in preparing by hand the drawings of letters and characters that ultimately would lead to the creation of an original type face design. After several years of consideration and a public hearing, the Copyright Office found that this effort did not result in a work of authorship. ... There are fewer authorship choices involved in transforming an existing analog typeface to an electronic font than in using the digitization process to create a new typeface design. Yet clearly the typeface design and the process of creating it are uncopyrightable whether the process is digital or analog. ... Typeface users ... in accordance with a congressional decision not to protect typefaces, are entitled to copy this uncopyrightable subject matter. ... The congressional decision ... reflects a concern about inappropriate protection of the vehicles for reproducing the printed word. Jamie From phijag at cobra.nus.sg Mon Dec 18 03:32:26 1995 From: phijag at cobra.nus.sg (phijag at cobra.nus.sg) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:32:26 +0800 Subject: help with Rg Veda quote? Message-ID: <161227022186.23782.3959366896311641904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone help me to locate the Rg Veda quote 'Prati yah shaasminvati' and to give its context and translation? Thank you in advance. John --- John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 18 20:25:29 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:25:29 -0800 Subject: R. Gombrich Message-ID: <161227022189.23782.3192747672306820184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an e-mail address or other contact for Richard Gombrich (Oxford)? Thanks, -Rich Salomon From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Mon Dec 18 22:27:40 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:27:40 -0500 Subject: e-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227022191.23782.1715727231254401766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would someone please tell me the e-mail addresses of: 1. Kim Knott (at Leeds) 2. Owen Cole (of Chichester) and 3. Eleanor Nesbitt (at Warwick)? Thanks in advance for your assistance in this matter. From garzilli at shore.net Mon Dec 18 23:38:35 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 18:38:35 -0500 Subject: e-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227022196.23782.13280959391265098686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Kim Knott is at the Theology Dept., and reachable in email via the Administrator: I.Lawrie at leeds.ac.uk Tell me if you need her address. However, if you consult the www of Leeds you might find her. ********************* On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, S Jain wrote: > > Would someone please tell me the e-mail addresses of: > > 1. Kim Knott (at Leeds) > 2. Owen Cole (of Chichester) > and > 3. Eleanor Nesbitt (at Warwick)? > > Thanks in advance for your assistance in this matter. > > > > > > ****************************************************************************** "Sometimes I sit and think: why these people hate us so bad? I chalk it up to two things: jealousy and plain ignorance!" ****************************************************************************** From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 19 00:28:43 1995 From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 19:28:43 -0500 Subject: IJTS - Vol. 1, No. 2 Message-ID: <161227022200.23782.11321198893039018546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am very glad to announce that the second issue of the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* has been published on our web pages: http://www.shore.net/~india/ijts/ The paper of Dr. C. Cantwell is accompanied by her 18 wonderful pictures of the Tibetan "Guru's Eight Aspects" ritual dance. * I would like to remind you that you can search our web space by keywords.* You will find a link to our search page in the Index of each issue. You can also download an ASCII copy of the issue from our FTP server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ On our server you can also find fonts, utilities, and IJTS's back issues. ---------------------- IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - A DEB... - Paper: THE DANCE OF THE GURU'S EIGHT ASPECTS, by Cathy Cantwell - NEWS - COMPUTER SPACE, by Ludovico Magnocavallo - LETTERS TO THE EDITOR - COPYRIGHT NOTICE ---------------------- THE DANCE OF THE GURU'S EIGHT ASPECTS by Cathy Cantwell ABSTRACT The Dance of the Guru's Eight Aspects (Guru mTshan brgyad 'chams) is a ritual dance which derives from the visions of the thirteen century Tibetan master Guru Chos-dbang. Its performance at the small rNying-ma-pa monastery in Rewalsar in Himachal Pradesh is described, along with the accompanying recitations of praises. The account is put into its context as a Buddhist tantric practice by a discussion of the tradition of 'chams, the general VajrayAna principles which underlie it, and the specific tantric ritual practices performed by the monks in preparation for the dances. How interpretations of the VajrayAna imagery shed light on its meaning and the significance of the concept of ''Liberation through seeing'' are explored. From garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU Tue Dec 19 00:51:56 1995 From: garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU (garzilli at HULAW1.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 19:51:56 -0500 Subject: JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES -- Vol. 1, No. 1 (ISSN 1085-7478) Message-ID: <161227022198.23782.11484152026643224831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can find the first issue of the *JOURNAL OF SOUTH ASIA WOMEN STUDIES* on our web pages: http://www.shore.net/~india/jsaws/ *I would like to remind you that you can search our web space by keyword.* The link to the search page is found on the Index to each issue. You can also download this issue in ASCII format from our FTP server: ftp://ftp.shore.net/members/india/ On our FTP server you can also find fonts, keyboard softwares and macros for the Indian alphabets. --------------------------------------------- IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - A DEB.... - PAPERS: * A Tribute to Mahatma Gandhi: His Views on Women and Social Change *, by Sita Kapadia * Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India? *, by Subhadra Chaturvedi - NEW TITLES ABSTRACTS: In her paper Dr. Kapadia offers a survey of an aspect of Gandhi's thought which has not exhaustively been investigated: his view of womanhood and the social and political role of women. The second paper is entitled *Whether Inheritance to Women is a Viable Solution of Dowry Problem in India?*, by Ms. Subhadra Chaturvedi, Advocate at the Supreme Court of India. Ms. Chaturvedi offers a statistic of the reported crimes against women in India, and especially against brides. She also gives her legal point of view on women's inheritance and on the Indian National Perspective Plan for women 1988-2000 A.D. From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Mon Dec 18 23:41:43 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 23:41:43 +0000 Subject: R. Gombrich Message-ID: <161227022193.23782.10445465533399231492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 20:30 18/12/95 GMT, Richard Salomon wrote: >Does anyone have an e-mail address or other contact for Richard Gombrich >(Oxford)? You can reach him at Richard Gombrich Damien Keown From athr at loc.gov Tue Dec 19 16:18:00 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 11:18:00 -0500 Subject: Library of Congress Open - And how to get in Message-ID: <161227022207.23782.1608889366055169258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress is not among the US government institutions affected by the current furlough of employees. Its budget was passed and signed as part of the budget of the legislative branch shortly after the first furlough. It is open for business at its usual hours. Visitors to the Asian division should note that the 3rd Street East door, the only one open for several years, has been closed and the 2nd Street East door has been opened as the only entrance. This is the one that faces the Jefferson ("main") Building. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From jl6 at soas.ac.uk Tue Dec 19 11:24:41 1995 From: jl6 at soas.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 11:24:41 +0000 Subject: e-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227022202.23782.17361205521124528862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kim Knott's email address is: k.knott at leeds.ac.uk She may well know the other two. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:30:57 GMT Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk From: S Jain To: Members of the list Subject: e-mail Addresses Would someone please tell me the e-mail addresses of: 1. Kim Knott (at Leeds) 2. Owen Cole (of Chichester) and 3. Eleanor Nesbitt (at Warwick)? Thanks in advance for your assistance in this matter. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Dec 19 12:53:14 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:53:14 +0000 Subject: TrueType fonts w/ Sanskrit & Japanese diacritics Message-ID: <161227022204.23782.15897105739082962804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGY members, Jamie Hubbard has kindly made available two fonts, one by Microsoft and another by Adobe, modified to include the accented characters needed for indic work. It is very generous of him to make his work available like this. However, I believe that to copy and distribute these fonts is not legal. My opinion is based on the comp.fonts FAQ discussion, and other private discussions I have monitored over the years, as well as my experience as past chairperson of the National Academic Typsetting Users Forum, in Britain. The issues surrounding the legality or otherwise of font copying are dreadfully complicated, differ from country to country, and are affected by software license restrictions too. The issues have been amply discussed in the comp.fonts FAQ, which is available from the URLs ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.anwers/fonts-faq/part1 or better still, http://jasper.ora.com/comp.fonts Jamie and I have had a private exchange on this issue (and we remain the best of friends!). I do not want to start a discussion about this matter in this forum, since it falls firmly outside the scope of INDOLOGY. If further discussion is desired, please conduct it in the proper forum, which is the usenet group "comp.fonts". I repeat, please do not discuss this matter further in INDOLOGY! I'm afraid that the the INDOLOGY archives will not risk making these Microsoft and Adobe fonts publicly available. (Bitstream Charter and Adobe Utopia, which are professionally designed fonts that have explicitly been made freely available by their manufacturers, are available in true-type and postscript format from the INDOLOGY archives in versions modified by Peter Friedlander to provide the CSX encoding.) Dominik Wujastyk, -- Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. FAX: +44 171 611 8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk For my PGP public key etc., see my WWW home page: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/wujastyk.html From ECL6TAM at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk Tue Dec 19 13:40:41 1995 From: ECL6TAM at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk (Alec McAllister) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:40:41 +0000 Subject: e-mail Addresses Message-ID: <161227022206.23782.433891697649277967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 18 Dec 95 at 22:30, S Jain wrote: > >Would someone please tell me the e-mail addresses of: > >1. Kim Knott (at Leeds) K.KNOTT at LEEDS.AC.UK Alec McAllister Alec McAllister Arts Computing Development Officer Computing Service University of Leeds United Kingdom tel 0113 233 3573 email: T.A.McAllister at Leeds.AC.UK From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de Wed Dec 20 16:41:42 1995 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.de (F.J. Martinez Garcia) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 10:41:42 -0600 Subject: Help with transcription: Velthuis Message-ID: <161227022209.23782.14119742604468426017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you please tell me about Velthuis transcription system? Where could I get a table of characters? Thank you very much for your help! J. Martinez ======================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Mart!nez Garc!a Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 7982 2847 Universitt Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 7982 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 7982 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de http: //www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html ======================================================================= From athr at loc.gov Wed Dec 20 19:40:03 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 14:40:03 -0500 Subject: "Look to this day" quote Message-ID: <161227022214.23782.6201347065965331219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Salim, of the Near Eastern Section of the Library of Congress, has kindly made a quick search of Gibran's THE PROPHET (there is no Gibran concordance) and indeed has come across something very close for part of the quote, but nothing like all of it: Yet the timeless in you is aware of life's timelessness, And knows that yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream. The Prophet. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1983, p. 62. The search will continue. Allen Thrasher On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, LESTER ROBERT C wrote: > How about Khalil Gibran? > > On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > > > > > I think I will be devil's advocate and propose that the claim that this is > > an old Sanskrit poem is either completely bogus or the poem is badly > > translated. It is of course difficult to prove a negative. Has anyone any > > evidence to the contrary ? > > > > >#> Look to this day > > >#> For yesterday is but a dream > > >#> And tomorrow is only a vision. > > >#> But today, well lived > > >#> Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness > > >#> And every tomorrow a vision of hope. > > >#> Look well, therefore, to this day. > > > > Lance Cousins > > > > MANCHESTER, UK > > Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk > > > > > > > > > > From indobib at indoger.unizh.ch Wed Dec 20 14:23:57 1995 From: indobib at indoger.unizh.ch (indobib at indoger.unizh.ch) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 15:23:57 +0100 Subject: Peschmyl Message-ID: <161227022211.23782.8979158071753555214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is to thank all who have shown interest in PESCHMYL, the electronic version of the Sanskrit-German-Dictionary by K. Mylius. The publisher has unfortunately not yet sent the text which he wants prospective recipients of the files to sign. The actual distribution can therefore not start before beginning of January. Please have patience! Your requests have been registered. I have been asked several times about the format of the file: It is a zipped file of ca. 1.2 MB for the formatted dictionary, another zipped file of ca. 1.1 MB for the scanned text, plus a brief file with comments. The coding system is a multi-character coding for diacritics and everything else (e.g. %-a for a-macron). Peter Schreiner From unknown at example.com Thu Dec 21 16:13:12 1995 From: unknown at example.com (unknown at example.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:13:12 -0600 Subject: GLOBAL TOUR TO PUBLISH TIRUKKURAL Message-ID: <161227022215.23782.15691025051432630564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Global Tour to Publish Tirukkural ********************************* Tirukkural is the only rallying point for Tamil people as it espouses all that is noble in life. Mr. Alagappa Rammohan, Director of International Tamil language foundation is on a global tour to promote the publication of Tirukkural. The outcome will be of a very fine quality and will be aesthetically appealing. This tour is financed with his own funds. An intense effort is ongoing to publish Tirukkural (a very ancient classic of morals) with a modern, contemporary English translation on one side and the Tamil original on the adjascent page. The Tamil original will be given with individual words as separate units along with proper punctuation marks following Murray S. Rajam's editions of the classic Sangam poetry. (In old editions, the words are joined together following complex grammatical rules - 'sandhi') No modern translation of the beloved Tirukkural in a pocket-sized format and with no compromise on publishing standards is available today in the market. This high-quality outcome will be something like the Buddhist works issued by Shambala Publications. Mr. Al. Rammohan is undertaking the tour to meet with all the lovers of Tamil to explain this novel idea. The publishing of Tirukkural in such a desired form needs $ 100,000. Already, $ 30,000 has been realized for this project. Donors are still needed to make this dream a reality. If anyone is interested in knowing about this project, wanting to donate, or offering any kind of help is most welcome. If one donates $ 1000 or more, his/her name will be published in the book. If one donates $15, a copy of the book will be sent. Please spread this message through e-mail, letter or word of mouth, to anybody whom you judge will be interested. We need especially people from South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, Reunion and Indonesia to contact. Mr. Rammohan's address and itenary is attached. While he is on travel, if anybody gives a message or address/phone, I will pass on the information to him. Many Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov 1210 Camino Village Drive #2706 Houston, TX 77058 USA 713-280-2511 (o) 713-480-4141 (h) Itenary of Al. Rammohan *********************** until Jan. 15, 1996, in Chicago 8417, Autumn Drive Woodridge, IL 60517 USA Phone 708-985-3141 17-19th of Jan. 1996 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia & Singapore 20th of Jan. 1996 in Jakarta, Indonesia. 22-23rd of Jan. 1996 in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 24/jan. to 1/feb. 1996 in Madras, India 2nd Feb. 1996 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 3-9 of Feb. 1996 in Mauritius 10-15 of Feb. 1996 in Johannesburg, South Africa 16-19 of Feb. 1996 in Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe 19-21 of Feb. 1996 in Johannesburg, South Africa 22nd of Feb. 1996 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 23/feb. 1996 back to Chicago. ANNOUNCEMENT: --------------- INTERNATIONAL TAMIL LANGUAGE FOUNDATION --------------------------------------- (A tax-exempt, non-profit, charitable foundation registered in USA). 8417, Autumn Drive Woodridge, IL 60517 USA Phone/Fax 708-985-3141 This foundation has been heavily involved in doing five worthy projects for the cause of Tamil. With your help, they all can be accomplished. "ENRICH THROUGH TAMIL" is the motto of the Foundation. Tamil gets enriched by beginning the thought process to enrich ourselves through it and giving Tamil a place in our daily thinking. This foundation belongs to the entire Tamil diaspora living in 75 countries of the globe. It does not belong to any particular religion, caste or political group. 1.TIRUKKURAL PROJECT -------------------- This is the fundamental project whose success will be utilized to finance the other projects of the foundation (like adding to the audiovisual teaching aids to propagate science in Tamil). The great treasure, Kural is very concise and precise and defines a way of life for Tamils. This great work will be brought out in an elegant format like the Bible. It will contain the original text and Dr. Mu. Va.'s commentary in Tamil script. In addition, a free verse translation in English will be provided by Dr. R. Kabalisvaran of New York. The printing will be done at National Bible Press, Philadelphia. The work on a compact disk called "Tirukkural Icai Malar" containing songs on and about Kural is in progress.The vocal artistes will be Mr. S. P. Balasubramaniam and Ms. Chitra. A handbook on Tamil culture is also planned. The total cost of the project is $ 100,000. The names of patrons donating $1000 or more will be included in the book. The book will be sold at $15 and the resulting revenues will be used to fund the remaining other projects of the foundation. 2.TRANSLATION OF WESTERN SCIENCE VIDEO TAPES AND BOOKS IN TAMIL --------------------------------------------------------------- Explanatory programs on subjects from Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics have been produced in videotapes by Annenberg Foundation, USA. These programs give students of Schools/Colleges a very good understanding of the subjects involved. As a first step, a series called " Mechanical Universe and Beyond" will be presented with Tamil translation. Permission to use the twenty six tapes has been obtained from California Institute of Technology. The screening will be done in Schools in Tamil Nadu and Malaysia. Eminent persons like Mr. Datto Samivelu, Malaysia's minister and institutions like Madras Science Foundation have come forward to implement the project successfully. Dr. K. Gopalan, Professor of Electrical Engineering, Purdue University will be the Project Director. Dr. K. P. Aravanan of Pondichery university will be the Indian co-ordinator. Pondichery university has agreed to co-sponsor the project. 3. REVIVAL OF TAMIL CLASSICAL MUSIC ----------------------------------- The aim of this project is two-fold. The first is to publish books, practice manuals with notation and audio aids to teach Tamil music. The appreciation of Tamil classical music (Carnatic music) will be enhanced by understanding the basics that form the cornerstone of Tamil classical/ Carnatic music. Also, the Tirukkural Icai Malar by S.P.Balasubramaniam-Chitra duo will form a part of the project. Dr. Xavier Roche will be the Project director. Dr. Tamilappan will be the Indian co-ordinator. Prof. V. P. K. Sundaram, an eminent musicologist, will be authoring books with detailed analysis of the roots of ancient Tamil music and relations between "Pann" systems and Carnatic music. 4.VALLUVAR LEARNING CENTER --------------------------- This project concentrates on opening a library/reading room in every town of Tamil Nadu. The local temple/mosque/church will be used as the premises for the library. A start has been made by opening a Valluvar learning center at the Vinayagar temple of Kanadu Kathan with 600 books and a subscription for 30 magazines. Alagappa Rammohan, Director of the Foundation donated Rs. 30,000 for the startup costs. 5. CULTURESCAPE OF TAMILS - A BIBLIOGRAPHY ------------------------------------------ For the last few centuries, several European scholars have written on different facets of life in the Tamil region. In fact, printing started in Tamil, a first among all Indian languages. Tamil Sangam poetry is the only ancient Indian literature not derived directly from Sanskrit tradition. A bibliography containing the Tamil cultural achievements giving details about articles and monographs in Tamil and all other World's leading languages is under preparation. This will contain information about 25000 articles/books subdivided under different subject headings. A person interested in knowing or delving deep into a particular aspect of either past or contemporary Tamil society will find this work to be of immense help. Dr. N. Ganesan will be the project director. For more information or if willing to help in any way, please contact: Mr. ALAGAPPA RAMMOHAN, Director, International Tamil Language Foundation 8417, Autumn Drive Woodridge, IL 60517 USA Phone 708-985-3141 From sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu Thu Dec 21 17:06:27 1995 From: sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu (sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 12:06:27 -0500 Subject: Authors for SA Folklore Encycopedia Message-ID: <161227022217.23782.6056919795469609472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TO: INDOLOGY LIST RE: SEARCH FOR AUTHORS ON SOUTH ASIANS IN AFRICA Dr. Margaret Mills and Dr. Peter Clause are presently looking for authors to write on the topic of Diaspora Studies in Africa for the South Asian Folklore: Encyclopedia. If you know of any scholars who might be interested, please forward their names and addresses to me (sdiamond at sas.upenn.edu). Thank You, Sarah Diamond Production Editor, From follend at cpcug.org Fri Dec 22 12:15:09 1995 From: follend at cpcug.org (Rochelle Follender) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 07:15:09 -0500 Subject: Gujarati Melas Message-ID: <161227022220.23782.1175333379398038913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can you give me a list of 1996 dates of Gujarati fairs, festivals, and melas. I'm planning a 3 week trip to Gajarat and would like to attend some. Thanks you, Harvey Follender follend at cpcug.org From athr at loc.gov Fri Dec 22 15:48:15 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: Gujarati Melas Message-ID: <161227022222.23782.13133760733270667161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you have access to Usenet, you might post this request on soc.culture.indian.gujarati as well. If you don't I would be glad if you wish to attempt to do so for you, and forward responses. So far I have had bad luck with the software my institution provides for dealing with transmitting or responding to Usenet, but I think I have it largely figured out now, and the challenge would be interesting. Merry Christmas to all, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov On Fri, 22 Dec 1995, Rochelle Follender wrote: > Can you give me a list of 1996 dates of Gujarati fairs, festivals, and > melas. I'm planning a 3 week trip to Gajarat and would like to attend > some. > > Thanks you, > Harvey Follender > > follend at cpcug.org > > >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 22 95 Dec EST 21:02:13 Date: 22 Dec 95 21:02:13 EST From: " \\9$9J7F8@*?f:&8" <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: Jnaneshvar Next year is the 700th anniversary of Jnaneshvar's mahasamadhi. Does anybody know the main date(s) of this celebration in Alandi or Poona? Thanks and merry Christmas again to all. Hans-Georg Turstig From athr at loc.gov Thu Dec 28 17:01:04 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 12:01:04 -0500 Subject: Gujarati Parsi lit.; H. Humbach Message-ID: <161227022224.23782.1241455499957615126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone out there have any experience reading Gujarati in other scripts that its current standard? I had LC-Delhi ship back to me a couple of items from a big collection of Parsiana we bought from the late Dinkarbai Trivedi several years ago, assuming they were Avestan or Pehlevi and I could puzzle out the tranliteration from teaching Old Persian twice years ago. However upon looking at my reference books I now realize the script is not Pehlevi but something else. It looks something like Gujarati Modi but not quite like the form the textbook I have of it uses. It may also be Kaithi or one of the other bookkeeping scripts. (I have not I confess had the time to actually sit down and start trying to decipher yet.) If someone is used to these scripts and would be kind enough to assist me the transliteration would not only be easier but more authoritative. I seem to recall someone helped me a couple of years ago with some Gujarati in Modi (Jim Nye, did you put us in touch?) but am embarassed to say I didn't make a note of his name. A look at their online bibliographies indicates the Zoroastrianists Mary Boyce and Helmust Humbach work with Indian Parsi sources. Does anyone have an address for either of them. Thanks, and Happy New Year to all, Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 29 15:49:48 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:49:48 -0500 Subject: E. Journal of Vedic Studies 1,4 (Dec.95) Message-ID: <161227022226.23782.6354587700675778470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The editors of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies are pleased to announce the publication of vol. 1, issue 4 (Dec. 24, 1995) The issue contains: -- PAPER: Michael Witzel Harvard University EARLY SANSKRITIZATION. ORIGINS AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE KURU STATE. SUMMARY The Mahabharata is, by and large, the tale of a great battle between two sections of the ancient Kuru people of the Haryana/W. Uttar Pradesh region, as told at the snake sacrifice of the post-battle Kuru king Pariksit. Since the Vedic texts are "tape recordings" of the Vedic period we can use them as basis for judging the less strict tradition of the Epics. To provide such a basis, the present paper is an investigation of the forces behind the formation of the Kuru realm at the end of the Rgvedic period. The emergence of the Kuru realm is of extraordinary importance as its civilization has influenced later Indian ritual, society and political formations, frequently even until today. Comments are welcome and will be published in a separate column of letters/discussion. -- NEWS: THE INTERNATIONAL fOUNDATION FOR STUDIES IN THE VEDAS, Rahway, NJ, USA Aims, objectives, plans and an appeal. *** *** *** Vol. 1, issue 3 (P. KOSKIKALLIO, Baka Daalbhya: a complex character in Vedic ritual texts, epics and PuraaNas) has been made available on www a few days ago. It can be viewed at www.shore.net/~india/ejvs. Issue 4 will follow shortly at the same web site. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES Editor-in-chief Michael Witzel (Harvard University) Managing Editor Enrica Garzilli (Harvard University) Editorial Board Madhav Deshpande (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) Harry Falk (Freie Universitaet Berlin) Yasuke Ikari (Kyoto University) Boris Oguibenine (University of Strasbourg) Asko Parpola (University of Helsinki) Technical Advisor Ludo Magnocavallo (Politecnico di Milano) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Individual issues can be requested from M. Witzel. Subscription (free) and all mail should be addressed to: ejvs-list at shore.net, or to: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu or to the individual editors http://www.shore.net/~india/ejvs http://www.arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/~ejvs You can also subscribe on-line at www.shore.net/~india/ejvs under "How to subscribe". From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 29 20:10:56 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 15:10:56 -0500 Subject: transl.:"Grammaticality" Message-ID: <161227022228.23782.339116230320656282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: W. O`Flaherty/Doniger`s RV, JB and Manu translations. As promised, a final answer to the various messages on translation received in the few past weeks. My challenge to show mistakes in my evaluation of W. O`Flaherty/Doniger`s translations of the Rgveda, Jaiminiya Brahmana and Manu have been taken up only by a few, and in my mind, they have not been able to refute my statements. I briefly treat comments that deal with `cool` translation, `a decent read` which `has a lot of punch`, `an acceptable talk` which`scans well`. This is worse than the much maligned orientalist approach. The orientalists, `who romanticized certain aspects of the past` of India, to quote a recent Indian author, `treated [it] with a certain amount of respect` (K. Roy, The emergence of monarchy in North India, Delhi, OUP, 1994, p. 5). The `cool` approach, however, is decidedly (N. American) ethno-centric: it imposes *present N.American* concepts on the text under discussion and does not bother about its *original* intent, which a translation, after all, should attempt to present to its readers. The GI and `cool` approach is, in fact, a definite step backwards, behind what the Orientalists tried to do. It remains ethno-centric and cannot *translate* others` texts, and even less their concepts so that we may attempt to understand them. <<< A few details: Robin Kornman has not understood the points I made: (1) IN RV 10.95, the poet depicts Pururavas as `mad` (drpyaamy aham?) as the Brahmana texts say, and *therefore* lets him speak with anacoluths; the joke is, of course, that he says `sensibly` while he does not talk sensibly at all (which Urvasi does when pointing out repeatedly that she, being an Apsaras, cannot stay on as a wife)...; thus, I precisely try to present `the voice of the text`; (2) the new born baby will discern/understand only *later* on, and then will let a tear roll (deploring the loss of his mother)... (3) The sakhya remark is not about sexism at all. It just states a truism: `monks cannot be members of a nunnery`. Similarly, in Vedic times only men belong to a vratya sodality; some women hang on a `groupies`. To bring in present ideas of sexism is ethno-centric again. etc. etc. (4) A.D. Sood reminds me of Walter Benjamin`s article on the task of the translator, which, *translated* into English (from: Illuminationen. Ausgewaehlte Schriften, hg. Siegfried Unseld, Frankfurt (Suhrkamp) 1955/61, seems to be the bible of North American Indological translators these days. But, apart from his usual great insights, there has been a long and specific discussion on translating from Vedic Sanskrit, see next message. (5) Incidentally, if it is even `cool` that O`s RV cover is incorrectly described as one of `the RV` and not one of an unknown commentary of the RV: I suggest that Aditya Deva Sood print his first paper/book under the name of his cousin X. Y. Sood -- after all, she/he also is a Sood... What is in a name? >>> `GRAMMATICALITY` All of this, however, was not what I was really talking about. I was also not talking about `grammaticality` and `translating in the same tense and order as in the original.` Rather about translating (grammatically correctly) a Vedic text into English (etc.); at first, perhaps, not into modern idiomatic English but into an English utterance which brings out the original intent of the text in question. How to transpose that initial translation into idiomatic English (etc.) is quite another question, and as a non-native speaker I would not attempt to write one without proper countercheck by colleagues or, preferably, a poet, as O` Fl. has done herself. Now, many of not most Vedic sentences can be translated into English while following the patterns of Skt./Engl. grammar. Sanskrit is, after all, also an Indo-European language. And many of the grammatical categories are in place in both languages with the same or very similar `meaning` (rather: function). Thus a vocative remains a vocative in English as well (though in Engl. it has `no` special suffix, rather a 0-morpheme.) In English, too, you do not address your friend by the nominative, saying `The/a John, come here!` (The Victorian crutch is, of course, to translate `o John`, etc.). All of this is quite another matter in languages which do not have the same categories, say, the Old Japanese `nominative/genetive` suffixes -ga, -wa, -no, -tu, not to speak of Whorf`s horror case of the non-existence of nouns in Nootka: `it houses` just like `it flames` (=burns). Only in such cases can we speak, with some degree of justification, of an `untranslatability` of certain grammatical categories into other languages. Obviously, whatever the rather ad hoc designation (the `genetive` :: genere/genus etc.) of a grammatical category may be, we have to look at the grammatical function it has and the noematic category/ies it represents before translating literally, and then more idiomatically, into our own languages. That is precisely why we can translate grammatical categories such as the the Vedic "tenses" `imperfect` (ahan vrtram) or `perfect` (jaghaana) by the Engl. past and perfect (he killed Vrtra / has killed V. ) but we do not have a `tense` for the aorist (ahaaniit) and have to substitute: `he killed `. Even worse, the injunctive: ` he killed` etc. etc. All of this `aporia between languages` is well known and the daily bread of someone specializing in Vedic; we learn that in grad. school (see, e.g. again K. Hoffmann`s book on the Injunctive). But I would advise to check just a few of O./D.`s translations of these verbal categories. To make it absolutely clear: When I was talking about wrong grammar, I critized O./D. had not paid attention to the grammatical *function* (`meaning`, the noematic aggregate) of the grammatical forms in question, therefore did not select the proper English *function* and chose the wrong tense, case etc. which resulted in an incorrect translation of the original intent of the Vedic text. In short, S. Vidyasankar was perfectly correct when summing up the matter: >> all the points about fracture and reconstitution are perfectly well-known to every serious academic. The point is that the reconstitutions should not be colored by preconceived ideas of what constitutes the original text.<< The argument about `good translation` starts only when we talk about *idiomatic* translation that is based on a first, grammatically correct, but perhaps not so idiomatic one. There, we can easily disagree. But that was *not* my point at all. However, when we do not translate a Skt. genetive as an Engl. genetive in philosophical and other shaastra texts (Stephen Phillip`s case)-- then this is nothing but a translators` convention adhered to in English and other European languages as we abhor the extreme *nominal* style of Sanskrit in our own languages. It may be possible to translate literally: naantaHkaraNasya vahnyaadidezagamanam by `There is no going of the inner organ to the place of fire etc.` but more complex sentences make it difficult and rather cumbersome to follow this practice throughout (and we therefore turn the Skt. nominative into a verb and the genetive into a nominative in our languages). This is a convention, and in such cases I would not stress translating every Skt. case by an Engl. one (there aren`t so many in Engl. anyhow! Rather follow the established conventions of translating *shaastra* Sanskrit). This has nothing to do with ungrammatical utterances which are interpreted by a listener/reader corrrectly. This is a special case. If you constantly and *inconsistently* (e.g.not mirroring your dialect/mother tongue consistently) mix up grammatical categories you are not easily understood. -- Philos. Skt. is grammatically correct, and uses the Skt. case system in the proper way, it is only that we do not want to imitate this in Engl. Actually, we even have three levels of translation of the genetive if take the following case: we have a sentence of Kalidasa`s, where the word in question is explained by a commentator using a sutra of Panini`s grammar: Kalidasa`s gen. is to be translated = Engl. gen., Panini`s gen. as meaning `in place of` and the commentator`s gen. (by now, traditionally, for convenience sake) as nominative . This is due to three entirely different processes. Panini uses the gen. in his meta-language in an entirely different function, one not found in `normal` Vedic or Classical Sanskrit. The grammatical function of the shaastra and Vedic/Classical genetive remains the same (possessive, etc. functions); but we conventionally choose to translate the shaastra gen. differently, thereby in fact misrepresenting the grammatical structure of the sentence. Here,it is meaning and understandability that outweighs inter-grammaticality. <> It should be clear that all of the above is quite different from *bending* the grammar and therefore the meaning of sentences, such as the few ones critized by me earlier (vocative viira, or the JB `future imperative` in -taad `and then do!` ... etc. ) These translations simply remain wrong. We all make mistakes, -- and I will gladly correct mine, -- but we should not make a score of grammatical etc. mistakes per page when publishing something intended for an unsuspecting public! (concluded in another message, on translatability and original intent ) *************************************** From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Fri Dec 29 20:11:25 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 15:11:25 -0500 Subject: Transl.: Original Intent Message-ID: <161227022231.23782.9477604585619253643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *************************************** re: W.O`Flaherty/Doniger`s RV, JB, Manu translations: TRANSLATABILITY and ORIGINAL INTENT. Finally, since there have been no takers, I revert to the (initially, some weeks ago) proposed discussion of the problem of `intranslatability` of words such as dharma/rta, hari/niila etc. This was at the bottom of some of the comments though the problem has not been addressed as such. In her Manu, for example, D. (as she says, insisted upon by her collaborator B.K. Smith) translates dharma by a variety of words, from duty, and religion, to merit and manner), but she consistently translates brahmana as `priest` and ksatriya as `ruler`. This reopens up an old question that has been discussed since the 1850`s by Roth/Boethlingk, Bergaigne and in this century especially by Geldner, Lueders/Thieme and K. Hoffmann: should we translate a Skt. word with a variety of Engl. (etc.) words or just by one word which comes closest to the meaning of the Skt. word? For example, a brahmana is not always a priest nor a ksatriya always a ruler... and hari is, e.g. the color of leaves in the spring when first budding (yellowish-greenish-brownish). There is no single Engl. (etc.) word for this. The problem is well known (Jpn. aoi `dark green/blue`: such as traffic lights... or Hjelmslef on Danish `grey/black`). How more difficult to pin down concepts such as Skt. dharma or Vedic rta... (more in the forthc. HOS volume on translation). Color designations illuminate the case and allow for an easier approach. One could measure the frequency of the light reflected from aoi- or hari-colored objects and say, with precision, that this color is in the range of so and so many cycles (Hz) and therefore corresponds to engl. x or y. Yet, a translator into Engl. has to decide whether a traffic light is blue or green... This already provides an idea of how much cultural information (realia) goes into each translation (note: the last straw case!) and this is, other than frequently neglected in Skt. classes, a large part of our job. Dharma or rta are not so easy. Just as in case of hari, we have to investigate the (all!) contexts, in other words, we have to get a very good idea of the field of meaning (noematic aggregates) that the word encompasses. If possible we choose the English word that completely or almost completely overlaps with the noematic aggregates expressed by the Skt. word. That this is not always possible is known to any translator and that is precisely why I chose the pi = 3.14159165... example (when I last looked and not 3.15... as printed on the net), and I did so not out of an `over-zealous concern for scientific precision`. For, philology, properly understood, tries to approach, with *increasing precision* over the decades (setbacks, such as the one criticized here, negclected), the correct representation, as far as possible (or necessary) in the context. But we also know that - for a variety of reasons - that this can only partially, if largely, be achieved. This exercise, too, is a dialectic process, and it is in constant development. In her Manu translation D. has chosen Paul Thieme`s approach (without mentioning the century old discussion after Bergaigne) of selecting the word that comes closest to the meaning of the Skt. one. But her choice has not always been correct or felicitous (brahmana, ksatriya, or pala `straw` for a weight of 1.33 ounces/ 37.76 grams, etc.) On the other hand, dharma has received a host of translations, listed in the index. Yet, a reader of the Engl. text of Manu will never know that `Manu` is speaking about dharma. One has to reconstruct this when reading the book, by discovering the Engl. word `duty` (etc.) under `dharma` in the index... It would have be better to translate idiomatically but also to add dharma each time in parentheses. ORIGINAL INTENT Which brings us to the meaning of the text as such. Above, I have used the term `original intent`. This is a category that has been guiding translators since Sanskrit became better known in the west. It may be that 19th cent. scholars imposed many of their own categories on the texts (as do we, inadvertently) but even they were eager to find out the *original* meaning of a word, (AND its development), or of a text. *That* is why they did not blindly accept the interpretation of medieval Indian commentators of the Vedas who are almost as distant from the Vedic texts as the academic Vedic specialists then and now. In sum, though much has been said in defense of the three translations criticized earlier, -- they remain grammatically incorrect. Therefore they do not represent the function (the noematic aggregates) of the grammatical category in question, they cannot represent the `meaning` of that category, -- and consequently, they do not convey what the original text represented to its listeners (later: readers). The *original intent* of the text is not captured. (Note that I am not talking of the later, Epic, classical, medieval etc., perception of these texts or of the history of their understanding, -- a legitimate undertaking, but one different from the aims of the three translations criticized). Therefore, with regard both to `grammatically correct` translation, the translation of `difficult words` and of original intent, I still stand uncorrected and remain unconvinced. ity alam! M.W. ============================================================================= durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================= Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 4968571 EJVS-list at shore.net email: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu (or: WWW: http:// www.shore.net/~india/ejvs or: arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it/ ~ejvslist/ ============================================================= From mail07464 at pop.net Sat Dec 30 04:10:10 1995 From: mail07464 at pop.net (mail07464 at pop.net) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 20:10:10 -0800 Subject: Gerard Colas Message-ID: <161227022234.23782.15386131879015041307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd appreciate any help as to how to reach Gerard Colas. Thanks. Beatrice From jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr Sat Dec 30 08:46:47 1995 From: jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr (jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 09:46:47 +0100 Subject: Gerard Colas Message-ID: <161227022236.23782.6560732770709258430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'd appreciate any help as to how to reach Gerard Colas. >Thanks. > >Beatrice > According to the AFEI listing (Association Francaise des Etudes Sanskrites), his adress is: 55, rue du Mont-Cenis, 75018 PARIS - Jean-Luc Chevillard (PARIS)