From kalyans at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 1 13:36:07 1995 From: kalyans at ix.netcom.com (kalyans at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 06:36:07 -0700 Subject: Where is Mount Munjavant? Message-ID: <161227020183.23782.5899823253602830257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks a lot to Beatrice Reusch who provided the following leads: >From N.N. Bhattacharyya, "The Geographical Dictionary -- Ancient and Early Medieval India" 1991, Munshiram: >Mujavant, Mujavat >A people that took their name from Mujavant, a mountain in the Himalayas. >They are mentioned along with the Mahavrsas, Gandhaaris and Baalhikas in AV >V.22.5-14. They are also mentioned in Taitt. Sam. I.8.62; Kaathaka Sam.IX.7, XXXVI.14; Mait. Sam. I.4.10.20; Vaaj. Sam. III.61; Sat. Br. >II.6.2.17; Baudh. D.S. II.5 I found the following references in Macdonell and Keith, Vedic Index, 1958, Motilal: MUjavant is the name of a people who, along with the mahAvRshas, the gandhAris, and the balhikas, are mentioned in the Atharvaveda (v.22,5.7.9.14 cf. baudhAyana Srauta sUtra, ii.5) as dwelling far away, and to whom fever is to be banished. Similarly in the yajurveda saMhitAs (TaittirIya S, i.8,6,2;Kathaka S, ix.7; xxxvi.14; maitrAyaNI s, i.4,10.20; vAjasneyi s, iii.61; Satapatha b, ii.6,2,17) the mUjavants are chosen as a type of distant folk, beyond which rudra with his bow is entreated to depart. In the Rgveda (x.34,1) soma is described as maujavata, 'coming from the mUjavants,' or, as yAska (Nirukta, ix.8) takes it, 'from mount mUjavant.' The Indian commentators (mahIdhara on vAjasneyi s, loc.cit.; sAyaNa on RV. i.161,8; baudhAyana Srauta sUtra and prayoga, cited by Hillebrandt, vedische mythologie, 1,63) agree with yAska in taking mUjavant as the name of a mountain, and though Hillebrandt (op.cit., 1,65) is justified in saying that the identification of mUjavant by Zimmer (Altindisches leben, 29) with one of the lower hills on the south-west of kashmIr lacks evidence, it is not reasonable to deny that mUjavant was a hill from which the people took their name. yAska (loc. cit. cf. siddhAnta kaumudI on pANini, iv.4,110, where insead o maujavata in RV x.34, maunjavata is read) suggests that mUjavant is equivalent to munjavant, which actually occurs later, in the epic (mahAbhArata, x.785; xiv,180) as the name of a mountain in the himAlaya. In the Iranian tradition, haoma is reportedly obtained from haraqaiti (which is cognate with sarasvati). Would it be reasonable to search for names of mountains proximate to the banks of the sarasvati river, i.e. south of the sutlej, or not too far from gandhAra? If so, could it be a mountain in the khetri copper belt in Rajasthan? Regards, and thanks again to Beatrice, Dr. S. Kalyanaraman kalyans at ix.netcom.com From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Tue Aug 1 07:45:58 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 08:45:58 +0100 Subject: Address for Robert E. Goodwin? Message-ID: <161227020174.23782.6459211349655847011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any address, postal or email, for Robert E. Brown? David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University UK From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 1 10:43:55 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 10:43:55 +0000 Subject: survey on indian information Message-ID: <161227020178.23782.10285644146314852063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone called "Antoine Rubini" with the address "antoine at satyam.satyam.com" has shamelessly taken advantage of the INDOLOGY mailing list to promote a commercial service and to try to get valuable commercial information about you -- including your salary -- free of cost to himself, by distributing a detailed financial and commercial questionnaire. This disgraceful abuse of the academic network group INDOLOGY is utterly unacceptable, and is to be deplored as unethical, insensitive, boorish, and ultimately self-defeating. I hope you would not consider using this "Satyam" service after witnessing this crass behaviour, and that you will spread the word amongst your friends and colleagues that this is a service to be avoided: if Satyam are capabable of such breaches of network ethics, would you really consider giving them your credit card details? I apologize on behalf of INDOLOGY for the waste of your time, mailbox space, and money, that Satyam has caused. There is nothing I can do about it, but if this kind of stupid network abuse becomes more frequent, the terms and conditions of membership and posting-privileges for INDOLOGY will have to become more restrictive. I would encourage you -- if you have the patience -- to send email to "Antoine" complaining about the misuse of precious network resources. This message is being copied to the "antoine at satyam.satyam.com" address. Antoine said: > This is a survey implemented by Satyam Computer Service Limited. > Satyam is in the process of setting up a fee-based information service on > Internet. This survey is intended to effectively implement the information > service. We request you to provide your valuable feedback. [...] > > Please send your responses to the following address: > > antoine at satyam.satyam.com -- Dominik Wujastyk, Wellcome Institute, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE. FAX: +44 171 611 8545 email: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Tue Aug 1 10:02:03 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 11:02:03 +0100 Subject: Address for Robert E. Goodwin? Message-ID: <161227020180.23782.5326686800079310191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am seeking any address for Robert E. Goodwin, at Brown University until 1993. Please ignore my request of an hour earlier for an address for Robert E. Brown. Many thanks. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Aug 1 18:24:01 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 11:24:01 -0700 Subject: Justifying teaching of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020185.23782.17324812658394416622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would be very useful, I think, if putting the formidable intellectual resources of the INDOLOGY group together, we made a collection of remarkable observations regarding why Sanskrit should be taught (and, perhaps, regarding why it should not be taught). As there is a huge body of literature out there on this subject and it is as repetitive as the writings on ;Sa:nkara's Advaita Vedaanta, we should restrict ourselves to insightful, original (or original-sounding) and /or charmingly expressed observations. I begin by making the following modest contribution on the basis of what I could easily recall: 1. Oft-quoted: "The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists. Sir William Jones, Third Anniversary Discourse, Asiatic Society (Calcutta), 2 February 1786. 2. dharmo brahma raso naama ;siva.m satya.m ca sundaram / yaa tridhaa tattvam uuce taa.m sa.msk.rta-prtibhaa.m numa.h // "Homage to that Sanskrit genius which articulated reality in three forms: the Truth that is brahman, the Goodness that is dharma, and the Beauty that is rasa. Professor V. Raghavan, verses on the back of the Sanskrit periodical Sa sk ta-pratibha, 1959. 3. "Since the Renaissance there has been no event of such world-wide significance in the history of culture as the discovery of Sanskritliterature in the latter part of the eighteenth century. Arthur A. MacDonell. A History of Sanskrit Literature, p. 1 of third impression in 1909. London: William Heinemann. 4. "In the development of human consciousness India has played so small part. The student who has ventured into this vast field is indeed tempted to say that India's intellectual creation is to those of other lands as the Himaalaya is to other mountains." (p. xii); "The ideals of Indian civilization are not simply very fine: they are in great part still desirable, indeed necessary, for Humanity. This is perhaps the main reason why kaavya is still worth reading. ... Ideals apart, kaavya is a permanent record of a mighty stream of human experience, and in part a comedy, a critique, of that experience. ... in the present fusion of world civilizations it is necessary, if we value happiness and our very existence, that this inheritance should be appropriated by the whole human race." (pp. 217-18). A. K. Warder, Indian Kaavya Literatur, vol. I. As I recall, there are some good passages on the importance of Sanskrit in Jawahar Lal Nehru's the Discovery of India. I do not have the book at hand. Although for the foreseeable future, many of us must spend considerable energy in (a) educating administrators of higher institutions of learning regarding why what we do is valuable and (b) pleading for the inclusion or retention of South Asian languages in the curriculum, the long-term goal must be the mainstreaming of at least the classical languages like Sanskrit. There are very few departments in Western universities in which Sanskrit is taught and researched as a part of the Classical heritage. It seems that educating, in this respect, must regrettably begin with the Classisists. As their own numbers are dwindling in the new economic and academic 'realities,' will they be interested in forming an alliance with Sanskritists, Tamilists, etc.? ashok aklujkar From zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Aug 1 19:48:35 1995 From: zwilling at facstaff.wisc.edu (leonard zwilling) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 13:48:35 -0600 Subject: V.r.sa.na'svasya Menaa Message-ID: <161227020187.23782.17770854790778440796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me if the "lost" myth of Indra in the guise of a woman alluded to at RV 1.51.13 and at various places in the Braahma.nas and Sa.mhitaas has received any treatment since Oertel's over 80 years ago in the pages of the JAOS? From thayashi at duaic.doshisha.ac.jp Tue Aug 1 11:45:45 1995 From: thayashi at duaic.doshisha.ac.jp (Takao Hayashi) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 20:45:45 +0900 Subject: Address for Robert E. Goodwin? Message-ID: <161227020181.23782.11211295797341261664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Address of Robert E. Goodwin: 120 East Avenue, Saratoga Springs, N.Y. 12866 Hayashi From BMS at NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU Wed Aug 2 17:29:11 1995 From: BMS at NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU (BMS at NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 10:29:11 -0700 Subject: survey on indian information Message-ID: <161227020191.23782.11876796744230459235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is an inappropriate use of this network. Do not do this again. From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Wed Aug 2 10:48:30 1995 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 10:48:30 +0000 Subject: survey on indian information Message-ID: <161227020189.23782.12502612465514100051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 09:53:31 -0300 (BST) > From: Antoine > Subject: survey on indian information > To: Members of the list > Reply-to: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Dear friend, > > This is a survey implemented by Satyam Computer Service Limited. > Satyam is in the process of setting up a fee-based information service on > Internet. This survey is intended to effectively implement the information > service. We request you to provide your valuable feedback. All those who > reply before 10th August, 1995 will receive One month's free subscription > to the Information Service. > > Thanks in advance, > > Antoine Rubini - antoine at satyam.satyam.com > > 1 ) For how long have you been an Internet user ? > > (A) Less than 6 -months [ ] > (B) 1 - 2 years [ ] > (C) 2 - 3 years [ ] > (D) 3 - 4 years [ ] > (E) 4 - 5 years [y ] > > 2) Which medium would you most prefer to receive information by? > > (A) E-Mail [y ] > (B) Ftp [ ] > (C)Gopher [ ] > (D) Web Sites [ ] > > 3) On which of the following Indian subjects are you interested > in receiving information ? > > A) Matrimonial Ads [ ] > B) Indian Educational Information [ ] > C) Travel / Tourism information [y ] > D) Investment opportunities [ ] > E) Real Estate Purchasing Information [ ] > F) Entertainment Services [ ] > G) Software/Computer related services [ ] > F) Any others ( Please specify) > > 1_Sociology and anthropology______________________________________________________________ > 2hinduism_______________________________________________________________ > 3_______________________________________________________________ > > 4) Which of the following methods of payment do you prefer ? > > A) Hourly flat fee [ ] > B) Monthly flat fee [ ] > C) Yearly flat fee [ ] > C) Flat fee per file downloaded [y ] > D) Flat fee per KB [ ] > E) Fee per service (i.e. matrimonial) [ ] > F) Any others (Please Specify) ________________________ > > 5) Most often which of the following quantities of information will > you need ? > > A) Only leads [ ] > B) Brief Summary [y ] > C) Detailed, evaluated information [ ] > D) Individually customized information [ ] > > > > 6) How much would you be willing to pay for the following quantities > of information? Don't know as yet. > (Please specify amount according to qestion # 4 ) > > A) Only leads $___________ > B) Brief Summary $___________ > C) Detailed, evaluated information $___________ > D) Individually customized information $___________ > > 7) Which of the following ways would you prefer to make your payments? > > A) Prepaid advance account [ ] > B) Credit Card [y ] > C) Cheque/DD [ ] > D) DigiCash or Electronic currency if available [ ] > > 8) Your name: > First _Jayant____________________________ > Middle_Bhalchandra____________________________ > Last_Bapat______________________________ > > 9) To which age group do you belong ? > > (A) 15-20 [ ] > (B) 21-30 [ ] > (C) 31-40 [ ] > (D) 41-50 [ ] > (E) 51-60 [y ] > (F) 61-70 [ ] > > 10) Is your annual income? > > A) under $25000 [ ] > B) $25000-$35000 [ y ] > C) $35000-$55000 [ ] > D) $55000-$75000 [ ] > E) $75000-$100000 [ ] > F) $100000-$250000 [ ] > J) Over $250000 [ ] > > 11) Approximately how much do you spend on getting information on India > per Year? > This varies. Often I go on visits and field trips to collect info. > A) Less than $50 [ ] > B) $50-$150 [ ] > C) $150-250 [ ] > D) $250-350 [ ] > E) $350-500 [ ] > F) More than $500 [ ] > > > THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. > > Please send your responses to the following address: > > antoine at satyam.satyam.com > > ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com Wed Aug 2 14:31:35 1995 From: aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 14:26:35 -0005 Subject: survey on indian information Message-ID: <161227020195.23782.8618918609768405680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 1 Aug 95 at 9:53, Antoine wrote: > 1 ) For how long have you been an Internet user ? > > (A) Less than 6 -months [ ] > (B) 1 - 2 years [x ] > (C) 2 - 3 years [ ] > (D) 3 - 4 years [ ] > (E) 4 - 5 years [ ] > > 2) Which medium would you most prefer to receive information by? > > (A) E-Mail [x ] > (B) Ftp [ ] > (C)Gopher [ ] > (D) Web Sites [ ] > > 3) On which of the following Indian subjects are you interested > in receiving information ? > > A) Matrimonial Ads [ ] > B) Indian Educational Information [ ] > C) Travel / Tourism information [x ] > D) Investment opportunities [x ] > E) Real Estate Purchasing Information [ ] > F) Entertainment Services [x ] > G) Software/Computer related services [ ] > F) Any others ( Please specify) > > 1_______________________________________________________________ > 2_______________________________________________________________ > 3_______________________________________________________________ > > 4) Which of the following methods of payment do you prefer ? > > A) Hourly flat fee [ ] > B) Monthly flat fee [ ] > C) Yearly flat fee [ ] > C) Flat fee per file downloaded [ ] > D) Flat fee per KB [ ] > E) Fee per service (i.e. matrimonial) [ ] > F) Any others (Please Specify) ___Free_____________________ > > 5) Most often which of the following quantities of information will > you need ? > > A) Only leads [ ] > B) Brief Summary [x ] > C) Detailed, evaluated information [ ] > D) Individually customized information [ ] > > > > 6) How much would you be willing to pay for the following quantities > of information? > (Please specify amount according to qestion # 4 ) > > A) Only leads $__0_________ > B) Brief Summary $__0_________ > C) Detailed, evaluated information $__0_________ > D) Individually customized information $___0________ > > 7) Which of the following ways would you prefer to make your payments? > > A) Prepaid advance account [ ] > B) Credit Card [ ] > C) Cheque/DD [ ] > D) DigiCash or Electronic currency if available [ ] > > 8) Your name: > First _Aditya____________________________ > Middle_____________________________ > Last___Mishra____________________________ > > 9) To which age group do you belong ? > > (A) 15-20 [ ] > (B) 21-30 [ ] > (C) 31-40 [ ] > (D) 41-50 [ ] > (E) 51-60 [ ] > (F) 61-70 [x ] > > 10) Is your annual income? > > A) under $25000 [ ] > B) $25000-$35000 [ ] > C) $35000-$55000 [ ] > D) $55000-$75000 [ ] > E) $75000-$100000 [ ] > F) $100000-$250000 [ ] > J) Over $250000 [ ] > > 11) Approximately how much do you spend on getting information on India > per Year? > > A) Less than $50 [x ] > B) $50-$150 [ ] > C) $150-250 [ ] > D) $250-350 [ ] > E) $350-500 [ ] > F) More than $500 [ ] > > > THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. > > Please send your responses to the following address: > > antoine at satyam.satyam.com > > > .oooO Have a nice day ( ) Oooo. -----------------------\ (---( )--------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ http://pages.prodigy.com/FL/aditya ************************************************************************* Aditya Mishra | The opinions expressed herein are absolutely * Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 | not immutable and might have already changed * Internet: aditya at gate.net| by time you read them due to the new evidence* Prodigy: TVDS96A | or data that has come to my attention. * ************************************************************************* From aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com Wed Aug 2 14:31:35 1995 From: aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 14:26:35 -0005 Subject: survey on indian information Message-ID: <161227020193.23782.7150484953383198301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 1 Aug 95 at 10:45, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > This disgraceful abuse of the academic network group INDOLOGY is utterly > unacceptable, and is to be deplored as unethical, insensitive, boorish, > and ultimately self-defeating. I hope you would not consider using this > "Satyam" service after witnessing this crass behaviour, and that you > will spread the word amongst your friends and colleagues that this is a > service to be avoided: if Satyam are capabable of such breaches of > network ethics, would you really consider giving them your credit card > details? I completely agree that it is misuse of this list even though I have supplied the requested information minus financial matters. .oooO Have a nice day ( ) Oooo. -----------------------\ (---( )--------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ http://pages.prodigy.com/FL/aditya ************************************************************************* Aditya Mishra | The opinions expressed herein are absolutely * Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 | not immutable and might have already changed * Internet: aditya at gate.net| by time you read them due to the new evidence* Prodigy: TVDS96A | or data that has come to my attention. * ************************************************************************* From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Thu Aug 3 01:49:51 1995 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 21:49:51 -0400 Subject: Replying only to the original sender Message-ID: <161227020197.23782.6128862061064096193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few days back, there was a question about how to send the replys only to the person who posted the message rather than all the members. After some experimentation, I think that I have one possible solution. This basically consists of using a perl script to change the "Reply-To" field to be the same as the "From:" field. This will work only if you are using an Unix system; it is best if you filter your incoming mail to seperate the mailing list messages from others. Let me know if you want to take a look at the script. Of course, you can always mail a message manually to the address given in the "From:" field :-). It would be nice if the Reply-To field is set by the list software itself. We can reply to the list by using the "replyall" command or its equivalent. Nath Rao (natharao+ at osu.edu) 614-366-9341 From MCDERMOT at wehle.canisius.edu Thu Aug 3 13:03:06 1995 From: MCDERMOT at wehle.canisius.edu (James McDermott) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 95 09:03:06 -0400 Subject: Kumara Kasyapa Message-ID: <161227020199.23782.3005778364469826125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a footnote to his translation of the Abhidharmakosa, Louis de la Vallee Poussin, citing Samghabhadra refers to a sutra in which the events surrounding the birth of Kumara Kasyapa are described and in which a motif of embryo transplant plays a significant role. Samghabhadra notes that the Sthaviras deny the possibility of such an occurrence. And, indeed, the Pali versions of the story of Kumara Kassapa found in the Jataka and Dhammapada commentaries lack the transplant motif. Given the resources available to me in Buffalo, I have been unable to track down the version of the Kumara Kasyapa story to which la Vallee Poussin/Samghabhadra refer which includes the transplant motif. Can any kind soul provide me with a reference and, if possible, Sanskrit text of the relevant passage? Thanks. --Jim McDermott >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 03 1995 Aug EST 17:29:17 Date: 03 Aug 1995 17:29:17 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: "MAIL.HASIA3" Subject: H-ASIA: QUERY INTERCOURSE AND ------------------------------------ AUTHOR: MAIL.HASIA3 ------------------------------------ Received: from MSU.EDU by MAIL.LOC.GOV (Soft*Switch Central V4L380P7); 03 Aug 1995 14:49:36 EST Received: from MSU.EDU by msu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6288; Thu, 03 Aug 95 13:49:28 EDT Received: from MSU.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV at MSU) by MSU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0156; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:49:27 -0400 Received: from MSU.EDU by MSU.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 8376 for H-ASIA at MSU.EDU; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:49:22 -0400 Received: from MSU (NJE origin SMTP2 at MSU) by MSU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0109; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:48:51 -0400 Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu by msu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 03 Aug 95 13:48:49 EDT Received: by saul2.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.07/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA28084; Thu, 3 Aug 95 10:47:31 -0700 X-Sender: conlon at saul2.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Approved-By: Frank Conlon Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture Sender: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture From: Frank Conlon Subject: H-ASIA: Query intercourse and pregnancy in Hinduism To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASIA H-ASIA August 3, 1995 Query: intercourse during pregnancy in Hinduism/ 17th century C.E. *********************************************************************** From: Francois Quiviger Dear Asianists, I am presently completing a section of a paper dealing with Roberto de' Nobili, an Italian Jesuit who founded an important mission in Madurai, in Southern India around 1605. In one of his works, written for his Brahman and Nayak converts, a passage dealing with marriage stipulates that it is not a sin to have intercourse with one's pregnant wife, provided that no harm is done to the child. This seems to me at odds with European manuals for confessors which prescribed severe penance for such a deed which they considered a sin, as it obviously goes again the doctrine of the Church on marriage. I suspect that De'Nobili was simply quite lenient in this case. The ascetic character of Brahman life probably led him to believe that this leniency would have been unlikely to breed excesses and as many Indian missionaries he was above all reluctant to burden the fragile faith of his new converts with the weight of unknown sins. Furthermore, as this text is written in Tamil it was unlikely to prompt much controversy... But before jumping to conclusions I wonder whether anyone could tell me if intercourse with one's pregnant wife is something admitted in Hinduism or indicate some texts where I could find an answer. My warmest thanks in advance. Francois Quiviger Warburg Institute University of London ================================================================= To post to H-ASIA send your message to H-ASIA at msu.edu To temporarily interrupt your H-ASIA service for holidays send a posting to with the message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL When you return and wish to resume H-ASIA service send a similar posting with message: SET H-ASIA MAIL Private questions should go to: conlon at u.washington.edu From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Aug 4 00:10:44 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 95 19:10:44 -0500 Subject: H-ASIA: QUERY INTERCOURSE AND Message-ID: <161227020206.23782.4335604012091106248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The only expert I know (and I'm sure there are others) is Julia Leslie. See her book _The Perfect Wife_. Somewhere in there, I'm positive, but I've forgotten the exact page number, she mentions specifically the idea that it was permissible for women to have intercourse during pregnancy. And that's not her own idea. She's quoting from South Indian Sanskrit sources. It's a very interesting book. Best, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Thu Aug 3 23:59:53 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 95 23:59:53 +0000 Subject: JBE Publication News 1 August 1995 Message-ID: <161227020203.23782.5832474331213028949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------------------------------- JOURNAL OF BUDDHIST ETHICS ----------------------------------------------- GENERAL EDITORS Damien Keown (Goldsmiths, London) and Charles S. Prebish (Penn State) TECHNICAL EDITOR Wayne Husted (Penn State) EDITORIAL BOARD Masao Abe (Nara), George Bond (Northwestern), David Chappell (Hawaii), Lance Cousins (Manchester), Richard Gombrich (Oxford), Charles Hallisey (Harvard), Ian Harris (St Martin's, Lancaster), Peter Harvey (Sunderland), Richard Hayes (McGill), Christopher Ives (Puget Sound), Leslie Kawamura (Calgary), Winston King (Emeritus, Vanderbilt), Reginald Ray (Colorado), Lambert Schmithausen (Hamburg), Robert Thurman (Columbia), Paul Williams (Bristol). The Journal of Buddhist Ethics is pleased to announce the publication of: BUDDHISM AND MEDICAL ETHICS: A BIBLIOGRAPHIC INTRODUCTION by James J. Hughes and Damien Keown. Vol. 2 1995 105-124. Directory: /vol2 Filename: hughes.txt Publication date: 1 August 1995 ABSTRACT This article provides an introduction to some contemporary issues in medical ethics and the literature which addresses them from a Buddhist perspective. The first part of the article discusses Buddhism and medicine and outlines some of the main issues in contemporary medical ethics. In the rest of the paper three subjects are considered: i) moral personhood, ii) abortion, and iii) death, dying and euthanasia. The bibliographic references appended to the article will be updated periodically (contributions are welcome), and the latest version of the bibliography will be available from the journal's "Resources" directory. [Note: this article is also available in HTML and (experimentally) the cross-platform Adobe Acrobat format from the journal's WWW sites. Filename Hughes.pdf] All enquiries to jbe-ed at psu.edu ---------------------------------------------- From msweet at facstaff.wisc.edu Fri Aug 4 16:16:05 1995 From: msweet at facstaff.wisc.edu (Michael J. Sweet) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 10:16:05 -0600 Subject: Embryo transler Message-ID: <161227020210.23782.4971919122953573797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >> In a footnote to his translation of the Abhidharmakosa, Louis de la >> Vallee Poussin, citing Samghabhadra refers to a sutra in which the >> events surrounding the birth of Kumara Kasyapa are described and in >> which a motif of embryo transplant plays a significant role. >> Samghabhadra notes that the Sthaviras deny the possibility of such an >> occurrence. And, indeed, the Pali versions of the story of Kumara >> Kassapa found in the Jataka and Dhammapada commentaries lack the >> transplant motif. >> Given the resources available to me in Buffalo, I have been unable to >> track down the version of the Kumara Kasyapa story to which la Vallee >> Poussin/Samghabhadra refer which includes the transplant motif. Can >> any kind soul provide me with a reference and, if possible, Sanskrit >> text of the relevant passage? Thanks. >> >> --Jim McDermott Can't help you with the reference, but just thought I'd mention, in case you were not aware of it, the Jain tradition about the transfer of Mahavira's embryo from a brahman woman to his (ksatriya) mother--see Dundas's "The Jains" and Jaini's "The Jaina Path of Purification" for Details. Michael Sweet From 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Fri Aug 4 17:45:16 1995 From: 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (C.A. Coleman) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 10:45:16 -0700 Subject: Embryo transler Message-ID: <161227020218.23782.4271563978455466501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What range of years are we talking about in reference to these texts and to this subject? CAColeman UC, Santa Barbara "It is madness to wear ladies' straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets." --Annie Dillard _Teaching a Stone to Talk_ From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Fri Aug 4 19:19:38 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 12:19:38 -0700 Subject: Web page again: new URL Message-ID: <161227020226.23782.11005888327852771799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please include the Nalayira Divya Prabandham page on the Indology home page, somewhere in the Electronic Texts section (or similar). The Nalayira Divya Prabandham is a Tamil corpus of hymns composed by saints known as the AlvArs sometime between the 6th and 9th centuries A.D. They are reckoned as scripture by significant numbers of people in the Tamil country, and have had a significant impact on Indian culture (being the first representatives of emotional bhakti). http://reality.sgi.com/employees/mani/prabandham.html Mani From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 4 17:12:55 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 13:12:55 -0400 Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text Message-ID: <161227020212.23782.9319704919253629138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While reading the Skt text of Pozadhavastu (Gilgit Manuscripts, Vol. III, Part I, p. 258), I came across an interesting passage. Here, Buddha is deciding how he should preach to the four guardians of the directions (DhRtaraazTra, ViruuDHaka, etc.). He says that two of them are 'aaryajaatiiya' and two are 'dasyujaatiiya'. If he teaches in the 'aarya vaak' then the Dasyus will not comprehend it, and if he teaches in the 'dasyuvaak' then the Aryas will not comprehend it. Finally, he decides to preach each in his own type of language. While the 'aarya vaak' is obviously Sanskrit, the little pieces of Dasyuvaak are some incomprehensible words. Besides this, the Arya guardians are in the east and the south, while the Dasyu guardians are in the west and the north. Has anyone written anything about this passage? Are there similar or contrasting passages elsewhere in Buddhist literature? All the best, Madhav Deshpande From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 4 17:15:49 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020215.23782.5928626108002787610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, The text I have been reading is not Pozadhavastu, but Bhaizajyavastu of the Muulasarvaastivaadavinaya. M. Deshpande ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:12:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Madhav Deshpande To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text While reading the Skt text of Pozadhavastu (Gilgit Manuscripts, Vol. III, Part I, p. 258), I came across an interesting passage. Here, Buddha is deciding how he should preach to the four guardians of the directions (DhRtaraazTra, ViruuDHaka, etc.). He says that two of them are 'aaryajaatiiya' and two are 'dasyujaatiiya'. If he teaches in the 'aarya vaak' then the Dasyus will not comprehend it, and if he teaches in the 'dasyuvaak' then the Aryas will not comprehend it. Finally, he decides to preach each in his own type of language. While the 'aarya vaak' is obviously Sanskrit, the little pieces of Dasyuvaak are some incomprehensible words. Besides this, the Arya guardians are in the east and the south, while the Dasyu guardians are in the west and the north. Has anyone written anything about this passage? Are there similar or contrasting passages elsewhere in Buddhist literature? All the best, Madhav Deshpande From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Sat Aug 5 02:12:21 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 19:12:21 -0700 Subject: pUrva-mImAmsA Message-ID: <161227020229.23782.14765157555914424327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone asked a while back about the usage of the term pUrva-mImAmsA, and whether it is actually used by classical Vedantins. From reading that I have done lately of materials from the Visistadvaita school, it appears that the term is current from at least the time of Sudarsana Suri (12th century), the acclaimed author of the SrutiprakASika commentatary on Ramanuja's SribhAshya. However, I cannot find the term in Ramanuja's own works, though admittedly I do not have the full text of the SribhAshya at my disposal. Sudarsana Suri's junior contemporary Vedanta Desika seems to prefer the term Karma-mImAmsA. Perhaps this is because he views the two mImAmsAs as being even more tightly coupled together than either Ramanuja or Sudarsana. Mani From dplukker at inter.NL.net Fri Aug 4 19:08:45 1995 From: dplukker at inter.NL.net (dplukker at inter.NL.net) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 21:08:45 +0200 Subject: Web page again: new URL Message-ID: <161227020223.23782.2052447106733144904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A URL for inclusion in the very useful Indology WEB page: http://metro.turnpike.net/S/spaoli/index.html This page is part of the WWW Virtual Library. >If you have a URL you think should be included, let me know. My aim is >to make the tree of INDOLOGY's other URL's have as steep a gradient as >possible. That's not very clear is it. What I mean is that as few URLs >should point to as many useful services as possible: the thing should >branch out sharply. > >Dominik Dick Plukker India Institute, Amsterdam From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Sat Aug 5 06:58:56 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 07:58:56 +0100 Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020233.23782.12453413931697936976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande writes: > While reading the Skt text of Pozadhavastu (corr. Bhaishajyavastu) >(Gilgit Manuscripts, Vol. III, Part I, p. 258), I came across an >interesting passage. Here, >Buddha is deciding how he should preach to the four guardians of the >directions (DhRtaraazTra, ViruuDHaka, etc.). He says that two of them >are 'aaryajaatiiya' and two are 'dasyujaatiiya'. If he teaches in the >'aarya vaak' then the Dasyus will not comprehend it, and if he teaches in >the 'dasyuvaak' then the Aryas will not comprehend it. Finally, he >decides to preach each in his own type of language. While the 'aarya >vaak' is obviously Sanskrit, the little pieces of Dasyuvaak are some >incomprehensible words. Besides this, the Arya guardians are in the east >and the south, while the Dasyu guardians are in the west and the north. > Has anyone written anything about this passage? Are there >similar or contrasting passages elsewhere in Buddhist literature? I have a rough note which says that Lokesh Chandra gives references to th Buddha preaching to Viruupaaksha in ? either the language of the borders or in Dravi.da: Ludwik Sternbach Felicitation Volume, Part One, p. 496 (Akhila Bharatiya Sanskrit Parishad, Lucknow, 1979). It is interesting to note that Viruupaaksha was an important deity in Vijayanagara. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 7 05:14:40 1995 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 05:14:40 +0000 Subject: Web page again: new URL Message-ID: <161227020244.23782.1313400443317887214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> |Please include the Nalayira Divya Prabandham page on the |Indology home page, somewhere in the Electronic Texts |section (or similar). ... |http://reality.sgi.com/employees/mani/prabandham.html | |Mani | | i've tried to reach this page about 6 times. no luck. the net knows the ip address, but, no response from this computer. sadhu From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Mon Aug 7 08:35:10 1995 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 10:35:10 +0200 Subject: Santiniketan - info req. Message-ID: <161227020237.23782.16922485410073447620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indology-l members, is there anyone, who could comment anything about the Shantiniketan University (in Bengall) ? I got a mail that I am admitted to an MA course (Sanskrit) there, but I am actually just finishing MA in Sanskrit at my homeland (and accepted to postgradual study which is to follow right now) and am therefore quite doubtful to what extent the course in India would be useful to me. Anyone who has some personal experience with this institution or can tell me anything about their exact curricula etc is welcome to answer me please note that answer should be sent directly to me, that is cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz for I have postponed indology mail for the summer time. Does anyone know some e-mail address of the above mentioned university? I would be grateful for quick replies as my desicion is to be taken whithin few days as I understand it. Thanks, Jakub Cejka, Prague -- cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 7 12:03:33 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 12:03:33 +0000 Subject: Indology Web Page Message-ID: <161227020239.23782.8825348921793198957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mehta, Shailendra said: > Dominik, > > Given the exponential rise in traffic on Indology, I was wondering if it were > possible to put together all the postings of a given week and to mail it in one > message to those individuals who wish to cut down on the mail volume ? This is one of the facilities already supported by the listserv software we use for INDOLOGY. Send a message "help set" to "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk" and you will receive instructions about how to tell listserv to save up INDOLOGY messages and post them to you as a digest. I used to read INDOLOGY in this form myself for a while, and it is extremely convenient. It makes INDOLOGY much less intrusive, and much more like a little magazine. But I found the downside was that it was harder to respond to individual messages, since they are embedded in the single INDOLOGY "issue", and you have to copy, cut, paste, and whatnot, rather than just hitting the "r" key to reply to a particular point. Swings and roundabouts. > Alternatively, is it possible to post on a timely basis one single file WEB > serverfor each month's messages ? Either way, it would be a big help and would > allow interested souls like myself follow the discussions offline. Sorry, this is beyond my technical ability at the moment. A good idea, though! Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 7 12:20:16 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 12:20:16 +0000 Subject: Replying only to the original sender Message-ID: <161227020241.23782.8459605663050467087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for this. I just want to say that I haven't forgotten about the issue. I sent a message to Chris Wooff at Liverpool, who runs the listserv software for us, but I haven't had a reply yet. He may be on holiday. Best wishes, Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 7 12:44:50 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 12:44:50 +0000 Subject: Web page again: new URL Message-ID: <161227020243.23782.2112950325461580434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very useful link, and quite new to me. Many thanks. Dominik From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Mon Aug 7 15:10:24 1995 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (Bapat Jb) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 15:10:24 +0000 Subject: email address of Dr. K.L. Sheshagiri Rao Message-ID: <161227020235.23782.9210911882516203081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me with the e-mail and postal address of Dr. K.L.Sheshagiri Rao of the University of Virginia who is the chief editor of the Encyclopaedia of Hinduism? Thank you in advance. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia ____________________________________________________________________ From malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU Mon Aug 7 23:46:44 1995 From: malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU (malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 17:46:44 -0600 Subject: siddha-mAtrkA Message-ID: <161227020248.23782.4634014826929727986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote: "What does siddha-mAtrkA 'mean' when such a name is assigned to an ancient script which originated from brAhmI and spread to Cambodia and Thailand? .... siddha-mAtRkA = name of the Indian alphabet derived from late brAhmI script which is the source of many scripts of south asia; wrongly called kuTila." Perhaps the name siddha-mAtrkA implied that the script had "perfect" proportions (taking matra to mean measure) or maatraas. Al-beruni (b. 973 CE, arrrived in Gazna in 1017) describes siddha-matrika as the popular script in the madhya-desh region (around Kannauj), also used by scholars from Kashmir to Varanasi. He mentions several other scripts some of which are apparently variations of siddha-matrika, others being somewhat different. One can take the script of inscriptions of Gahadawal and Paramar kings to be late siddha-matrika. The script is characterized by straight vertical and horizontal strokes, rather than circular strokes. Modern Devanagari is rather close to this script. All the native scripts of India, Ceylon, Tibet and south-east Asia are derived from Brahmi. Japanese Katakana and Korean scripts can also be considered to be influenced by Brahmi derived scripts. Both were invented by Buddhist monks to represent Sanskrit sounds correctly. Kutila (6-9th cent) is defined to be the precurser of both Nagari and Sarada. We can take it to be early siddha-matrika. We can regard Cambodian and Thai scripts to be descendents of siddha-matrika. Javanese is derived from pre-Gupta spouth Indian scripts. The symbols in Mauryan Brahmi have well defined geometrical shapes (triangle = e, circle = Th, square = b etc), suggesting it was an invented rather then a derived script. That would not exclude external influence. Yashwant K. Malaiya From LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA Tue Aug 8 02:54:54 1995 From: LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA (LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 22:54:54 -0400 Subject: Vedantasutras ??? Message-ID: <161227020250.23782.5377091550400896477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Brzezinsky has asked me to put out this request (he is presently languishing far from the internet somewhere north of Montreal). He is looking for the source of the following sutra which he thinks is from Vendantasutra, though neither he nor I can locate it there. It is "shakti-shakti-mator- abhedatvaat". If anyone recognizes it and knows the reference please let me know and I will communicate the mystery to him. Many thanks- Julian Woods From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Tue Aug 8 00:31:48 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 00:31:48 +0000 Subject: Was Sucarita Mis.ra's Kaashikaa ever completely published? Message-ID: <161227020246.23782.9596744494381734306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The subject-line already clarifies what I would like to know. I only know of pts. I-III having been published by S.aambas.iva S.aastri (I & II) and Ramasvaami S.aastri (III) respectively (Trivandrum 1926, 1929 and 1943). However, I have the urgent desire to read what Sucarita wrote on the s.abdanityataadhikaran.a of the S.lokavaartika, and that is not part of these three volumes. Can my wish be fulfilled? If not, is that because he never wrote anything or because the manuscripts are locked in somewhere behind the seven seas? Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Aug 8 19:12:11 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 12:12:11 -0700 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020252.23782.5481352679865541664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following passages offer an excellent summary of the role played by Sanskrit in world cultures: Source: Keith, A. Berriedale. 1920. A History of Sanskrit Literature. London: Oxford University Press. Pages 15-16: "Even in Southern India, despite the existence of a vigorous Kanarese and Tamil literature, Sanskrit inscriptions appear from the sixth century onwards, often mixed with Dravidian phrases, attesting the tendency of Sanskrit to become a Koine, and Sanskrit left a deep impression even on the virile Dravidian languages. Ceylon fell under its influence, and Sinhalese shows marked traces of its operation on it. It reached the Sunda Islands, Borneo, the Philippines, and in Java produced a remarkable development in the shape of the Kavi speech and literature. Adventures of high rank founded kingdoms in Further India, where Indian names are already recorded by the geographer Ptolemy in the second century A.D. The Sanskrit inscriptions of Campa begin perhaps in that century, those of Cambodia before A.D. 600, and they bear testimony to the energetic study of Sanskrit gramamr and literature. Of greater importance still was the passage of Sanskrit texts to Central Asia and their influence on China, Tibet and Japan. Source: Sapir, Edward. 1921. Language: an Introduction to the Study of Speech. New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc. Page 194 of reprint 1963 by the same publisher: "There are just five languages that have had an overwhelming significance as carriers of culture. They are classical Chinese, Sanskrit, Arabic, Greek, and Latin. From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Tue Aug 8 19:44:07 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 20:44:07 +0100 Subject: Norman diacritic fonts for Macintosh Message-ID: <161227020254.23782.2675195547350849622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor K.R. Norman's diacritic fonts for Macintosh have now been added to John Smith's ftp server. They can be obtained by anonymous ftp from: bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. They are currently to be found at: /pub/john/software/fonts/norman/NORM.SEA.HQX. I understand from Dominik Wujastyk that they will shortly be copied to: gopher-server.bcc.ac.uk. Both the postscript and truetype versions of the fonts Normyn and Mytymes are included. (These supersede the older Norman and Mytimes fonts for most purposes.) Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Aug 9 18:32:15 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 11:32:15 -0700 Subject: Justifying teaching of Skt? of Indology? Message-ID: <161227020264.23782.13878776861544237580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satyanad Kichenassamy writes: "It is interesting that the initial question, regarding the need to include indology in university curricula seems to have shifted to the need for the teaching of Sanskrit. " No. Prof. Hueckstedt's question of 22 July *was* about justifying the teaching of Sanskrit. It had "justifying the teaching of Sanskrit" as its subject heading. Its relevant part read as follows: " I have been asked to contribute an essay to a volume that will be entitled _Classics and the Modern Curriculum_. The word "classics" there is used in its broadest sense. The study of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, Chinese, etc. will be all represented. I am one of two people who have been asked to hold up the Indic side of the project. ... The classical languages of South Asia I define as Sanskrit, Prakrit, Old Dravidian, and Persian. We could maybe also include Apabhramsha and other Middle Indic languages. So, given such a definition of classics in South Asia, I am already feeling inadequate to the task. It's impossible for me to read all those languages, and even just within Sanskrit, I am not, nor can any one person be, a master of all the disciplines in which literature in Sanskrit has played an important part in the history of ideas. Nevertheless, here is my basic plan. I hope to show what a university misses by not having at least one Sanskritist on its faculty and Sanskrit offered in its curriculum. " If Prof. Hueckstedt indicates that he would like to receive help in making a case for "Old Dravidian," those who know that area of scholarship well should, of course, feel free to offer him help with respect to Tamil etc. I offered him help in the only area I think I know a little bit about. Satyanad Kichenassamy further writes: "division among indologists is not desirable, especially in today's environment." I cannot imagine any responsible subscriber to INDOLOGY disagreeing with that. In all the remarks I have made or quoted the importance of Tamil or Old Dravidian has been explicitly stated or suggested. In my understanding, Indology does not become complete without a study of India's/South Asia's non-Sanskritic (whatever the problems in defining this may be) heritage. I would like to conclude by re-utilizing a part of what I wrote earlier. We should make" a collection of remarkable observations regarding why Sanskrit should be taught (and, perhaps, regarding why it should not be taught). As there is a huge body of literature out there on this subject and [as] it is as repetitive as the writings on ;Sa:nkara's Advaita Vedaanta, we should restrict ourselves to insightful, original (or original-sounding) and /or charmingly expressed observations. Add 'scholarly" or "coming from specialists" to the list of qualification. I would personally very much welcome a collection of observations with respect to Tamil or Old Dravidian conforming to the expectations expressed above. ashok aklujkar From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Aug 9 16:57:24 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 11:57:24 -0500 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020262.23782.2809299107838352903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is interesting that the initial question, regarding the need to include indology in university curricula seems to have shifted to the need for the teaching of Sanskrit. As someone pointed out a few weeks ago, division among indologists is not desirable, especially in today's environment. A line of argument which tries to equate indology with the study of Sanskrit-based languages will lead to undesirable criticism. For instance, we know that Tamil inscriptions predate Sanskrit inscriptions, and that contacts of India with both East and West (Roman Empire in particular) were made in many cases by sea, through Tamil kingdoms in South India. The role of Sanskrit in the South, while substantial in some later works, is extremely controversial (there are examples of Sanskrit translations of Tamil texts which were passed as the original!). It therefore seems that it is indology which should be defended as a discipline. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From svagah at sb.su.se Wed Aug 9 10:59:06 1995 From: svagah at sb.su.se (svagah at sb.su.se) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 11:59:06 +0100 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020257.23782.12549775458090376741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the ?-mail or postal addresses to; Surinder M. Bhardwaj, the former Chairman in the Department of Geography at Kent State University? and / or to; Carolyn V. Prorok I would also appreciate to get in contact with anthropologists that currenly or previously have done research on Hindu women in the UK. Also, any titles of new publications or articles on this subject would be gratefully recieved. Please, as not to upset others on the list, answer direct to my ?-mail address. Thank you! Hopeful regards Elizabeth Hole (svagah at sb.su.se) From svagah at sb.su.se Wed Aug 9 10:59:56 1995 From: svagah at sb.su.se (svagah at sb.su.se) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 11:59:56 +0100 Subject: Looking for paper Message-ID: <161227020260.23782.4427898415807398583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know how I can get hold of the following paper? S.M. Bhardwaj and N.R. Rao. 1983. Religious reknitting of ethnic Hindus in the "new world". Paper presented at the annual meeting, Association of American Geographers.As not to upset others on the list, please, answer direct to my ?-mail address. Thank you! Hopeful regards Elizabeth Hole (svagah at sb.su.se) From pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 9 21:18:20 1995 From: pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu (pbilimor) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 14:18:20 -0700 Subject: Berkeley address Message-ID: <161227020266.23782.8843345710763705481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to use the space for this message, but I am getting understandably frustrating notes from friends and colleagues sent via my Australian e-mail address as the L.A. address works only .76 times and I don't have remote access to it. I am in Berkeley, folks, at the Dept of South & South-east Asian Studies/Philosophy. continuing my visiting function, etc. the e-mail address is: pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu Cheers Purushottam Bilimoria From daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 10 00:25:08 1995 From: daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu (Daud R. Ali) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 17:25:08 -0700 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020273.23782.12438398208708437312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I see it, the porblem is that the very notion of "great civilizations" and "classical" languages is precisely what is becoming more and more suspect or irrelevant. So it won't do just to replay the old songs. It is not sufficient to simply pine away over the glories and influences that Sanskrit has had all over India and southeast Asia. This is the very justification that is no longer convincing. One reason for this is that Area Studies in general are not in the best of shape. With the fall of the Soviet Union, the global agenda which founded area centers in the US is now belly up. Republicans are preparing to give us an even nastier "market place" approach not only to global policy, but to education as well. If anyone doesn't see the writing on the wall, they might do well to look at the Senate hearings on the NEH (available on H-ASIA). Let's face it, for all the "great civilizations" pr that we have been pumping into the minds of American students, India remains a third world country to most of the people that matter, in very real and depressing sense (one that far exceeds academics). Issues of Indian history and culture just won't find the committment that they used to. Unfortunately, there is probably not alot that can be done about this direction of events int he immediate future. But the long term survival of Sanskrit and Indian studies, I think will depend upon how we as scholars of India choose to position ourselves in the changing intellectual climate of the academy. In this sense, I think that the other major threat to classicist studies, besides the shrinking universe of the university, could actually be healthy for Indology. I am referring to "endogenous" intellectual developments within the academy in the last 15 years. I know such trends generally fall outside the purview of our Indological concerns (often greatly to our benefit), but when we are talking about justifying the teaching of Sanskrit not to ourselves, but to others, it might do us well to take a look at how the interests of the general scholarly audience (students and faculty) is changing. As I see it, any argument that is going to go down the "classicist" or "civilizational" road ought to be able to at least address the criticisms leveled against these positions in the last two or three decades. Such a dialogue is precisely what is missing from the discussion so far. The crticisms from the xholarly world against "classicist" approach are A) it is elitist, to put it euphemistically (as Kichenasamy points out from within Indology) and B) it is tied up with all sorts modernist and nationalist fantasies about the past. Related critiques have already been brought to bear on the study of civilization. But thankfully, civilization and classicism are not the only oreintations we can take to Sanskrit in pre-modern India. Not much work needs to be expended to prove that learning Sanskrit (along with other languages) is very important for studying and understanding pre-modern India. So one issue that must be addressed, is why one should bother to study pre-modern India in the first place. The point we must be clear on is that simply repeating the important contributions that Sanskrit and India have made to world culture -- the sort of remarks that Basham made nearly 40 years ago -- will only indicate the moirbund nature of our discipline. The positive and vital issue that needs to be addressed is whether the whole orientation of "classical" languages, with all that it implies, or even 'great civilizations,' is at all useful for the reasons mentioned above. Surely the study of Sanskrit can be framed within other paradigms of knowledge and history. For my own part, the goal Sanskritic study is simply the understanding historical formations in the past, for example. Such an approach might re-conceptualize Sanskrit not as a pre-ordained "classical language" but a hegemonic language of power. There are other approaches out there, and these need to be raised. Respectfully to all Daud Ali From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Wed Aug 9 22:27:52 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 17:27:52 -0500 Subject: Miscellaneous ??s Message-ID: <161227020269.23782.3621680710058715147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fellow Indologists, May I ask a few questions in the context of the little article I'm writing on South Asian classics and the Modern Curriculum? 1. In what year was the Wales Chair established at Harvard? 2. In what language(s) was the _Culavamsa_ written? 3. For experts in Buddhist philosophy. At the risk of displaying my ignorance worldwide, I quote below the paragraph I have written on Buddhist philosophy. I would be very grateful for any constructive criticism. Not being an expert myself in this area, I am afraid of making invalid generalisations. Here it is: While Jainism basically rests on one philosophical school, Buddhism encompasses four major, mutually differing schools and many minor ones. All of them agree on atheism, that no God created the world. Most of them agree there can be no such thing as an individual soul. On questions of ontology and perception, however, the debate is fierce. While there is some agreement on the episodic nature of perception and knowledge, there is no agreement on the logical consequences of that position. The M?dhyamikas' conclusion is one of radical non-existence. The Yog?c?ras' conclusion is one of complete subjectivism -- there is only the subject, no object. The conclusion of the Vaibh?.sikas is just the opposite -- direct realism, there is only the form (\it{r?pa}), no subject. The Sautr?ntikas' conclusion is often called indirect realism: there is something out there, but only phenomenally so. Of course, the debates are more interesting than the conclusions. %@@ Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu Aug 10 15:35:38 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 08:35:38 -0700 Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020279.23782.15478683510198931770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav: The passage in question is discussed briefly by Lamotte in History of Indian Buddhism (English ed.) pp.550 ff. = pp.608 ff. of the French original. But I'm not aware that anyone has ever really figured out these specimens of dasyuvak. -Rich On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Sorry, > The text I have been reading is not Pozadhavastu, but > Bhaizajyavastu of the Muulasarvaastivaadavinaya. > M. Deshpande > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:12:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Madhav Deshpande > To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Aarya/Dasyu in a Buddhist text > > > While reading the Skt text of Pozadhavastu (Gilgit Manuscripts, > Vol. III, Part I, p. 258), I came across an interesting passage. Here, > Buddha is deciding how he should preach to the four guardians of the > directions (DhRtaraazTra, ViruuDHaka, etc.). He says that two of them > are 'aaryajaatiiya' and two are 'dasyujaatiiya'. If he teaches in the > 'aarya vaak' then the Dasyus will not comprehend it, and if he teaches in > the 'dasyuvaak' then the Aryas will not comprehend it. Finally, he > decides to preach each in his own type of language. While the 'aarya > vaak' is obviously Sanskrit, the little pieces of Dasyuvaak are some > incomprehensible words. Besides this, the Arya guardians are in the east > and the south, while the Dasyu guardians are in the west and the north. > Has anyone written anything about this passage? Are there > similar or contrasting passages elsewhere in Buddhist literature? > > All the best, > Madhav Deshpande > > > From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Thu Aug 10 16:29:35 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 09:29:35 -0700 Subject: siddha-mAtrkA Message-ID: <161227020282.23782.14271877192127717904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 8 Aug 1995 malaiya at ravi.CS.ColoState.EDU wrote: > Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote: "What does siddha-mAtrkA 'mean' when such a > name is assigned to an ancient script which originated from brAhmI and spread > to Cambodia and Thailand? .... > siddha-mAtRkA = name of the Indian alphabet derived from late brAhmI script > which is the source of many scripts of south asia; wrongly called kuTila." > > Perhaps the name siddha-mAtrkA implied that the script had "perfect" On the meaning of "Siddhamaat.rkaa, see the interesting comments of G. Bu:hler in his On the Origin of the Indian Brahma Alphabet, p.30. to the effect that "the Pandits" understand the term to mean "the alphabet [maat.rkaa] preceded by the word Siddha (success)." I suspect that this indeed is the original sense of the term, i.e. that it did not refer to a specific "script" in the sense of a graphic form, but rather to a particular oral and/or written arrangement of the Sanskritic phonemes/graphemes, which was traditionally preceded by the auspicious word siddham; note that Bu:hler's comments refer to the modern (in his time) habits of Pandits in western India, who were no doubt familiar with written forms entirely different from those which are referred to in modern scholarly usage as "Siddhamaat.rkaa," i.e. the north Indian derivate of Braahmii of about the 8th to 10th centuries AD. Apparently, this name got applied, wrongly in a sense, to that particular written form of script, perhaps (I suspect) through the influence of non-Indians such as Al-biruni and the Central and East Asians who got to know the script form in question as a Buddhist "sacred script" (generally known as Siddham), and who perhaps (like many others since their time) did not understand the characteristically and peculiarly Indian (or at least Sanskritic) concept of writing, which tends to see it as secondary to, and hence a mere reflection of spoken language; so that what is important is not the specific forms of the "letters" (which is a very important matter to, say, an Arabic-literate Muslim or a Chinese scholar), but their sound value and arrangement (maat.rkaa). It is interesting to note that this development by misunderstanding is somewhat analogous to the shift in the meaning of the word "Pali", originally meaning something like "(body of) text(s)" or even "canon", into "name of the particular language (in which said texts are preserved)." The similarity may not be coincidental, but again may reflect non-Indians' (in this case, perhaps, Southeast Asians') partial misperceptions of Indian concepts of language, text, and writing. In any case, I do not propose that we try to "correct" the theoretically inaccurate use of the term Siddhamaat.rkaa in reference to a particular archaic north Indian script which has been preserved as a sacred form of writing in much of Asia. The usage is firmly established and honored by tradition. I am merely trying to clarify its ultimate origin and meaning. > proportions (taking matra to mean measure) or maatraas. > > Al-beruni (b. 973 CE, arrrived in Gazna in 1017) describes siddha-matrika as > the popular script in the madhya-desh region (around Kannauj), also used by > scholars from Kashmir to Varanasi. He mentions several other scripts some of > which are apparently variations of siddha-matrika, others being somewhat > different. > > One can take the script of inscriptions of Gahadawal and Paramar kings to > be late siddha-matrika. The script is characterized by straight vertical > and horizontal strokes, rather than circular strokes. Modern Devanagari > is rather close to this script. > > All the native scripts of India, Ceylon, Tibet and south-east Asia > are derived from Brahmi. Japanese Katakana and Korean scripts can also be > considered to be influenced by Brahmi derived scripts. Both were invented > by Buddhist monks to represent Sanskrit sounds correctly. My understanding is that the influence of Brahmi, or rather Siddhamaatrkaa or other derivatives, on Korean (Hangul) and Japanese is questionable and indirect at best. There may be some broad systemic connections with regard to syllabic structure and "alphabetic" ordering, but nothing like direct borrowings. > > Kutila (6-9th cent) is defined to be the precurser of both Nagari and Sarada. > We can take it to be early siddha-matrika. > S. Kalyanaramam was correct in his original message that the term "Ku.tila" formerly applied to the (conventional) Siddhamaat.rka script was incorrect. This misunderstanding, which goes all the way back to James Prinsep (see Bu:hler's comments in Epigraphia Indica I, p.76) arose from a misinterpretation of an adjective ku.tila- meaning something like "curved, curly", perhaps implying "ornamental, artistic," mentioned in a few inscriptions of the period in question with reference to the form of their writing (in scribe's colophons to the inscriptions). The matter is clarified by D.C. Sircar in Epigraphia Indica 36, p.50. > We can regard Cambodian and Thai scripts to be descendents of siddha-matrika. > Javanese is derived from pre-Gupta spouth Indian scripts. > The derivation of the Southeast Asian scripts is problematic, but basically they seem to go back to early south or west Indian derivatives of Braahmii, and not to Siddhamaat.rkaa. > Yashwant K. Malaiya > > -Richard Salomon From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 10 10:08:47 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 10:08:47 +0000 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020275.23782.14442538208312013108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> kichenas at math.umn.edu said: > (there are examples of Sanskrit translations of Tamil texts which were > passed as the original!). Which works? > It therefore seems that it is indology which should be > defended as a discipline. I take the points you made about the importance of Tamil culture, but the above statement is not a valid inference from them. One can defend anything one wishes, surely? Teachers of Sanskrit in non-Indian universities must perforce think hard about how to defend their status and budgets against the constant pressure of competition from other subjects. So must teachers of Tamil, Indian religion, art, Pali, etc. etc. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 10 10:18:06 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 10:18:06 +0000 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020277.23782.12096700005057989491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The inaugural lecture of Richard Gombrich as Boden Professor of Sanskrit at Oxford, "On being Sanskritic," puts forward a forceful argument that the study of Sanskrit is worthwhile. It is also very funny, and includes an interesting potted history of Sanskrit at Oxford. Recommended. Should be available from the OUP. Dominik From kichenas at math.umn.edu Thu Aug 10 16:53:03 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 11:53:03 -0500 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020284.23782.10912722279207614243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are a few answers to the questions raised recently on this issue: (1) Further to A. Aklujkar's remarks, we seem to agree that the initial question was about `the Indic side' of `Classics,' and that `classical languages' in India include Tamil and Sanskrit, to which I would add PALi and ArdhamAgadhii at the very least, without forgetting Tibetan, without which we would not have been able to reconstruct some Sanskrit works. In connection with a comment by Dominik W., it is more efficient for Sanskritists to join forces with experts in other languages in order to establish a core of Indology in University curricula, than to promote Sanskrit only, thereby alienating unnecessarily other scholars. Why compete among Indologists? (2) Also in answer to Dominik W., here are two examples of Sanskrit translations of works in other languages which may be illuminating: a. J. Filliozat, in his book on the Tiruppavai lists several translations (from Tamil to Skt.) which were passed, at times, for the original. The translations are rather inaccurate. b. Some people found fault with one of TyAgarAja's operas in Telugu, on the grounds that there was no Sanskrit source for its subject-matter. A friend of his forthwith composed secretely a Sanskrit version which was then presented as the original, thereby legitimating the composer (!). [The opera was, I think, NaukA caritram. Details can be found in Sambamoorthy's biography of TyAgarAja. Of course, TyAgarAja, a contemporary of Beethoven, is a major classical composer.] (3) One must be careful with some arguments: the quote "There are just five languages that have had an overwhelming significance as carriers of culture. They are classical Chinese, Sanskrit, Arabic, Greek, and Latin." is unfortunate, since French and English at least should be included! And what would Sumerologists say! (4) It may also be important to point out that the concept of nationalism (see Daud Ali's comments) is quite recent in the world. The writers of the Upanishads were more interested in universal concerns, and did not hesitate to seek enlightenment from `outsiders.' Even if one does not want to equate these teachers with non-Aryan `proto-Indians,' one must recognize that they did not feel that the essence of their thought belonged to one people or one tradition. (5) It is I think Sylvain Levi who pointed out that a full understanding of Sanskrit is not possible without a knowledge of Tamil sources. The importance of Tamil studies is, I hope, well-established today, and it would be easy to elaborate. But it seems that the priority is to establish and defend Indian studies in universities first, and that a unified stand from scholars in various aspects of Indian civilization is desirable. Such unity would be destroyed by perpetuating the idea that the essence of Indian civilzation is entirely contained in Sanskrit sources, even if these sources are very important and should be integrated in any curriculum. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From zysk at is2.NYU.EDU Thu Aug 10 16:18:11 1995 From: zysk at is2.NYU.EDU (Kenneth G. Zysk) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 12:18:11 -0400 Subject: MSS in Orissa Message-ID: <161227020280.23782.2615622329811144907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should appreciate it if someone could give me the proper citation for the following title of which I am uncertain: Sri Kedaranath Mahapatra, _Descriptive Catalogue of Sanskrit Manuscripts in the Collection of the Orissa State Museum_, Vol. II: Kavya (?), 1960 (?). [I need the ref. to the descriptive catalogue of Kaavya MSS] Many thanks, K.G. Zysk From jdunne at husc.harvard.edu Thu Aug 10 18:30:24 1995 From: jdunne at husc.harvard.edu (John Dunne) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 14:30:24 -0400 Subject: Miscellaneous ??s Message-ID: <161227020286.23782.6052404307434596584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Robert Hueckstedt's request, I will offer a few comments on his paragraph on Buddhist philsophy. I should preface my comments with the recognition that such summaries can never satisfy the more pecayune interests of specialists, but careful wording may avoid much of their more indignant wrath. I do not mean to imply that `Buddhologists' are academic piranhas, but as a specialist in the field, I have witnessed the occasional feeding frenzy. I hope that in my comments below, I too do not become overly zealous. If Dr. Hueckstedt is relying on secondary sources, the difficulty of his task is compounded by the gulf between the available secondary sources and the current understanding of these issues among specialists. That is, most of the sources available now have been superceded, often by many years, but the research and literature that supercedes them is not yet available in a work that would be accessible to the non-specialist. This problem may disappear within the next year or two. To move on to my suggestions, I will excerpt lines from the paragraph and offer my comments below each: > Buddhism encompasses four major, mutually differing schools and many >minor ones. Historically, Indian Buddhist philosophers do not seem to have a clear notion of Buddhist philosophical `schools' (vaada) prior to the sixth century, and the codification of the so called `four schools' may not have occurred until the seventh or eigth centuries. Hence, you may wish to avoid any anachronism by saying: "Buddhism encompasses various philosophical views that were later typified as the `four schools.' > All of them agree on atheism, that no God created the world. Here I have a quite minor comment. Despite the appositive, this phrase might lead a reader to think that Buddhists did not believe in gods, whereas gods were important figures in Buddhist literature and practice. Hence, you might say, "Although Buddhists believed in various realms of existence teeming with gods, demons and assorted spirits, they denied that any god could be omniscient, omnipotent, or the Creator. In this sense, they are `atheist.' >The M?dhyamikas' conclusion is one of radical non-existence. This statement would probably not be well received by many contemporary specialists. You might say `The madhyamakas employ a radical critique of essentialism, whereby they deny the existence of any ultimate entities whatosever. Their claims might be reduced to a form of extreme relativism.' > The Yogaacaaras' conclusion is one of complete subjectivism -- there is >only the subject, no object. Again, this would probably not be well received. Yogaacaraa philosophers specifically state that their goal is to negate subject-object duality. Their procedure is to deny that any object exists in the way that it is apprehended by deluded cognition--i.e., as non-contingent and extra-mental. Through that negation, they further demonstrate that the perceiving subject must likewise be non-existent. They claim, `Since the object does not truly exist, the subject does not truly exist.' Subject and object are thus collapsed into the causal flow of mind, in the sense that they are simply events within (and not separable from) the mind-stream. As such, the mind-stream could be called the substratum of our experiences, but it cannot be a `subject' in the usual sense. Furthermore, in as much as language presupposes duality, this mind-stream is in most cases inexpressible. Hence, it is `empty' of nearly any property that might be predicated of it, for nearly all predications presume duality. I say `nearly' because it seems that some of these philosophers would be willing to attribute some non-dual properties (whatever that might mean!) to this mind-stream, although the current state of the field does not allow any conclusive discussion of this point. Indeed, the various philosophers identified as `yogaacaara' do not agree on many such points. I do not envy you the task of writing a single line to convey the overall conclusion of yogaacaara philosophy, but your statement might be modified to read: `The conclusion of Yogaacaara is one that might be called `relational idealism,' whereby the ordinary conceptions of an internal subject and external objects are seen to be fictions based on events within the mind-stream itself as a result of dispositions created by past actions and relations with other mind-streams.' It is important to note that some contemporary authors would vehemently reject the notion that any Yogaacaara denied external objects. On their account, the word `idealism' should be replaced by `phenomenalism.' My own feeling is that a phenomenalist interpretation of standard yogaacaara (i.e., not Dignaaga and Dharmakiirti) is not supported by the texts and is in many cases directly refuted by some texts. This is a point of considerable dispute. Again, it is possible that there was no agreement among the Yogaacaara philosophers themselves. > The conclusion of the Vaibh?.sikas is just the opposite -- direct >realism, there is only the form > (\it{r?pa}), no subject. I think that there are some secondary sources that could easily mislead one on this point, but in the usual sources of Vaibhaa.sika views (the _Abhidharmako"sa_ and its _bhaa.sya_), the author Vasubandhu clearly denies direct realism (I am thining especially of AK I.10). He says that matter consists of infinitesimal particles (paramaa.nu), and these particles are in most cases perceptible only in aggregation. Since he denies the ultimate reality of any aggregated entity, to maintain his realist tendencies he must posit a kind of intermediate sensum that is related to but apparently distinct from that bundle of particles. He calls this intermediate sensum the `perceptual particular' (aayaatanasvalak.sa.na) in distinction to the `substance-particular' (dravyasvalak.sa.na), which is the particles in proximity to each other. This view, I believe, disqualifies him from being a direct realist in any straightforward sense. One might be tempted to see this as critical realism, but in as much as critical realism usually understands sensa or `character-complexes' to be mental (or, at least, not material), Vasubandhu's *apparent* willingness to identify the perceptual-particular as a non-mental quality or entity (such as `visual perceptibility') would disqualify him as an indirect realist (on some accounts, this might thrown him back into the direct realist camp; it depends to some extent on how these terms are defined). More importantly, Vasubandhu does not share many of the ontological presuppositions that stem from direct realism when it addresses questions of semantics and language. Hence, you might simply call his position `moderate realism' or even `a modified direct realism' which is perhaps sufficiently vague to avoid most misunderstandings. The real problem here is that Vasubandhu was not explicit enough to warrant any such appellation in his discussions on perception, while his discussions of language tend more toward conceptualism. >The Sautraantikas' conclusion is often called indirect realism: there is >something out there, but only phenomenally so. This is my area of specialization, so I could probably quibble endlessly. But fortunately, I think that most scholars would probably agree that the `Sautraantika' account of sense-perception could be called indirect realism. But again, one must be careful to avoid the conclusion that `Sautraantikas' share the conceptualist tendencies of most indirect realists when discussing questions of semantics. Using the typical notion of the `two realities' (conventional and ultimate), one could say that the Sautraantikas admit conceptualism on a conventional level, in as much as psychological considerations compel us to conclude that ordinary individuals use mental images to construct meaning. But on an ultimate level, Sautraantikas are nominalist, in that mental images are not what actually allow the use of language; rather, a cognitive function called exclusion, a certain form of negation important in Sautraantika semantics, is the actual basis for the construction of meaning. And in as much as negations have no mental images, Sautraantikas are not conceptualist. Indeed, Sautraantika philosophy explicitly denies the ultimate validity of the conceptualist position. Hence, we must conclude that they essentially espouse a unique form of radical nominalism (one that is surprisingly coherent). I put the term `Sautraantika' in quotes because it is unclear whether anyone was a `Sautraantika' in the fullest sense of the term. For most philosophers, Suatraantika philosophy seems to entail a form of yogaacaara philosophy; hence, Dignaaga and Dharmakiirti often speak as Sautraantikas, but at points they make it clear that a certain (possibly phenomenalist!) interpretation of yogaacaara is their final position. The lone candidate for pure Sautraantika-ism is the obscure S"ubhagupta, a little known and extremely terse author. >Of course, the debates are more interesting than the conclusions. Forgive me for saying so, but this comment seems slightly gratuitous. For instance, one of the conclusions drawn by Dignaaga, Dharmakiirti and their philosophical inheritors is the exclusion (apoha) theory of meaning. This theory has attracted some attention lately as an innovative approach to nominalism. Of course, I am biased on this point, but certainly your statement applies only to those who share your tastes or predilections I only wish to suggest that you not prejudice your reader against these materials. This is probably not your intention, but it might easily be interpreted in that fashion. In any case, I hope that these comments have been helpful (or at least not overly tiresome). Best wishes, John Dunne Study of Religion Harvard University >?From D-JOHN4 at vm1.spcs.umn.edu 10 95 Aug CDT 14:05:54 Date: 10 Aug 95 14:05:54 CDT From: Donald C Johnson Subject: MSS in Orissa Mr. Zysk: The entry for the Orissa descriptive catalog is: Author: Orissa State Museum. Title: A descriptive catalogue of Sanskrit manuscripts of Orissa in the collection of the Orissa State Museum, by Kedarnath Mahapatra. Published: Bhubaneswar: Superintendent of Research & Museum, Govt. of Orissa, 1958- From hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Aug 11 14:12:53 1995 From: hueckst at cc.UManitoba.CA (RAH) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 09:12:53 -0500 Subject: Q: Skt. competition in Poona Message-ID: <161227020289.23782.15385102612677191385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First, I thank all of you for your responses to my recent questions. If anyone wishes to see the near-final draft of my little article, now called "The North American University and South Asian Classics", and offer more suggestions for improvement, please respond directly to me, and we'll work out how best to do it. (I'm one of those people with a "peculiar personality", so I use TeX. Which is good, because the document requires, besides English, Greek, Tamil and Devanagari fonts, all of which TeX handles beautifully.) I would still like to know when the Wales Chair was established at Harvard. And I would still like to know the language(s) in which the _Cuulavamsa_ was written. Another, and probably last, question is this: I remember being told many years ago that there was an annual competitiion in Poona for the writing and production of Sanskrit plays. Does anyone know if that competition is still operating, and if so, for how many years has it been held? Gratefully, Bob Hueckstedt Robert A. Hueckstedt, Associate Professor of Indic Languages Asian Studies Centre, 328 Fletcher Argue, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2N2 Canada email: hueckst at cc.umanitoba.ca fax 1 204-275-5781 phones 1 204-474-8964, 1 204-488-4797 From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Aug 11 17:28:42 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 10:28:42 -0700 Subject: RAH questions Message-ID: <161227020290.23782.15153769341917139407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cuu.la-vamsa is in Pali. Written in Sri Lanka. < an annual competitiion in Poona for the writing and production of Sanskrit plays.> As I recall, these were competitions arranged by the Government of Maharashtra, not confined to the city of Poona/Pune. Most probably, they still take place. I do not know precisely when the Wales Professorship was established at Harvard, but I recall reading or being told that it was not the first professorship for Sanskrit in the USA or North America (if naming the first is RAH's intention in seeking the information). According to my recollection, Yale University was ahead of Harvard in that respect, and the Harvard professorship came two years later (whether it was called Wales Professorship right from the beginning will have to be ascertained). Mr. Yale was Governor of Madras. It could be that his donation which led to the founding of Yale came out of his Indian earnings. Can anyone supply reliable information or a source for reliable information on this. The preceding leads to another question. How many early facilities and professorships for Sanskrit or Indic studies in the U.K., Continental Europe, and the USA were established without using the money of Indian princes, etc.? As I see university after university going for the purses of South Asian immigrants (the new princes) to finance this or that chair or award, I sometimes wonder about this aspect of the history of Indology. ashok aklujkar >?From D-JOHN4 at vm1.spcs.umn.edu 11 95 Aug CDT 13:01:58 Date: 11 Aug 95 13:01:58 CDT From: Donald C Johnson Subject: RAH questions Edward Elbridge Salisbury was the first American to teach Sanskrit at the college level. He began as an honorary professor at Yale in 1841. In 1854 he resigned from the post and endowed a chair for Sanskrit so that his student William Dwight Whitney might have a career in Sanskrit scholarship. From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sat Aug 12 02:47:08 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 22:47:08 -0400 Subject: Misc. / Wales Prof... Message-ID: <161227020293.23782.3040250891694561030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, RAH wrote: > Fellow Indologists, > May I ask a few questions ..... > 1. In what year was the Wales Chair established at Harvard? > Bob Hueckstedt The two answers received so far are basically correct. Here some more details about the first few, somewhat amusing years of Indology in the US. The answer about the Wales chair is not so straightforward as some might believe. The history of Sanskrit studies in America begins in the 1830's, when Edward Salisbury (1814-1901), a Yale graduate, went to Europe to explore the newly growing field of Oriental languages. When he returned in 1843 it was as Yale's first Professor of Arabic and Sanskrit studies. His time in Tuebingen had overlapped with a visit there by a young physician named Henry Wales, a Harvard College graduate who has entered American literary history as the "student of old books and days, / To whom all tongues and lands were known" of Longfellow's Tales of a Wayside Inn. Wales was interested in Sanskrit, and through an 1856 legacy he provided for a Wales Chair in Sanskrit to be established at his old University. Its first holder was Whitney's foremost student, Charles Rockwell Lanman. Edward Salisbury who had studied at the Boston Latin school and at Yale, with a degree in 1836, went to Europe and studied Arabic, Sanskrit with Bopp, Lassen and Bournouf. He was offered a Yale professorship of Arabic and Sanskrit "to suit convenience, without pay"... However, in 1854, he gave up his chair at Yale for that of a Skt. professorship in in favor of William D. Whitney (1827-94) who had begun, in the winter of 1848/9, to study Skt. even before he went to Yale and to Europe where he studied with Bopp, and especially with R. Roth at Tuebingen. In 1869 Whitney was offered a position at Harvard but declined -- as the fama has it-- as he would have to teach French and German as well. He indeed gave just one course on Germanic languages. It was proposed that he do so at professorial level; when this became public, within one week a chair was established for him. But he continued at Yale in 1870 where he took the chair for Comparative Philolology. Instead James Bradstreet Greenough (1833-1901) began to teach Skt.at Harvard in 1872. Greenough, the Latin grammarian, commonly believed to be the inventor of the "sight passage", offered first and second year courses as Latin elective. Between 1872 and 1880 he taught "Comparative Philology and Skt."(inspired by F.Bopp) Charles Rockwell Lanman, (1850-1941) received a position at Harvard in 1880. He had studied Sanskrit under Whitney, Albrecht Weber in Berlin and Rudolf Roth in Tuebingen. However, when he arrived at Harvard in 1880 he did not become the Wales professor for the legacy was not offically probated until 1903. Lanman, however, was indeed the first to preside over a new Department of Indo-Iranian Languages, as it was then called and he continued as Wales professor until 1926. ----- Incidentally, to answer Ashok's QQ.: the chairs in Germany (beginning with Schlegel at Bonn in 1816-- for which the contemporary, Heinrich Heine, [History of German religion and philosophy, in French/German] can be read with great fun -- were established without any subsidy from Indian princes. They were funded (and continue to be so) by various virtually independent states such as Prussia (under its minister of culture, v. Humboldt) and some others (Wuerttemberg: Tuebingen, Baden: Heidelberg, Bavaria: Munich, Saxony: Leipzig, etc.), There are some 20 institutes of Indology now, usually several in each state. ------ M. Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit Harvard University 617- 495 3295 From garzilli at shore.net Sat Aug 12 12:33:57 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 08:33:57 -0400 Subject: Winand Callewaert Message-ID: <161227020297.23782.6593012033569719379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 12 Aug 1995, Hans-Georg Tuerstig wrote: > Hallo, > > could you please help me to find the adress of Winand Callewaert, possibly > University of Leuven. Thank you very much. > Hanjoerg Tuerstig. W. M. Callewaert Dept. of Oriental Studies Katholieke Universiteit Blijde Inkomststraat 21 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Could you please convey my best to him. Dott. Enrica Garzilli From GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp Sat Aug 12 06:42:00 1995 From: GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 15:42:00 +0900 Subject: Kumara Kasyapa Message-ID: <161227020295.23782.12877289286448091813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> James McDermott wrote: >In a footnote to his translation of >the Abhidharmakosa, Louis de la Vallee Poussin, citing >Samghabhadra refers to a sutra in which the events >surrounding the birth of Kumara Kasyapa are described and >in which a motif of embryo transplant plays a significant >role. Samghabhadra notes that the Sthaviras deny the >possibility of such an occurrence. And, indeed, the Pali >versions of the story of Kumara Kassapa found in the Jataka >and Dhammapada commentaries lack the transplant motif. >Given the resources available to me in Buffalo, I have been >unable to track down the version of the Kumara Kasyapa >story to which la Vallee Poussin/Samghabhadra refer which >includes the transplant motif. Can any kind soul provide me >with a reference and, if possible, Sanskrit text of the >relevant passage? Thanks. Dear Mr. McDermott The reference of Samghabhadra is: Taisho XXIX 1562 xliii p. 588c, line 9-15. I am sorry, I could not find the "suutra" referred by Samghabhadra. Anyway, I could not find any relevant reference in the Chinese commentaries, by Puguang and by Fabao, Taisho XLI 1821 xviii p. 279b line 3 sq., and Taisho XLI 1822 xviii p. 680a line 4 sq.; and there is nothing either in the Dictionary of Buddhist Proper Names of AKANUMA Chizen, s.v. Kumaara Kassapa. We should perhaps search in some aberrant traditions of Aagama, or Jaataka or Vinaya... (probably in Chinese). I hope that this can be of some help for you... Best wishes. Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan >?From 100734.2313 at compuserve.com 12 95 Aug EDT 08:03:24 Date: 12 Aug 95 08:03:24 EDT From: Hans-Georg Tuerstig <100734.2313 at compuserve.com> Subject: Winand Callewaert Hallo, could you please help me to find the adress of Winand Callewaert, possibly University of Leuven. Thank you very much. Hanjoerg Tuerstig. From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Sun Aug 13 11:49:15 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 12:49:15 +0100 Subject: Address for Gerda Hoekveld-Meijer Message-ID: <161227020298.23782.1508905441255932158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any address for Gerda Hoekveld-Meijer, please. Many thanks. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University Lancaster LA1 4YG UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Aug 14 13:25:14 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 08:25:14 -0500 Subject: Jainism/Buddhism in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227020312.23782.12638349518400983970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Decline of Buddhism/Jainism in Tamil Nadu ****************************************** This is a difficult field. It has to be studied archaeologically and thru' literature. What we have is only bits & pieces, may be the tip of iceberg. Very meager authentic data - Scarce & Scattered. Encyclopaedia of Tamil literature (Vol. 1, 1990, Madras) has two nice articles. 1) Jainism and Tamil literature 2) History of Buddhism in Tamilnadu. C. M. Ramachandran Chettiar wrote in 1940's a classic work KongkunATum camaNamum. Just like Coimbatore is close to the real, - kOvan puttUr (kOyamuttUr is wrong), Trichinopoly comes from tiru cinap paLLi."cina" comes from Jina (Jainism). tEvAram saints converted and called it tiruccirAppaLLi. Also a Jain monks' resting place is converted into "amaNalingEcuvarar" temple in tirumUrttimalai near Udumalpet. This is a lovely place, a nice dam is there. ammaNam in Tamil means "naked". This comes from Digambara monks of Jainism. Other great works are: mayilai cIni vEngkaTacAmi, 1) camaNamum tamizum 2) pauttamum tamizum 3) kaLappirar ATciyil tamizakam. See also, R. Vijayalakshmy, tamizakattil AcIvakarkaL, ulakat tamizArAycci niruvanam, 1988 M. S. Ramaswamy Aiyangar, Studies in South Indian Jainism, Madras, 1922 A. Cakkaravartti Nayinar, Jaina literature in tamil, 1974, Delhi. (Reprint) K. S. Nagarajan, Jaina Contribution to Tamil culture, Madras. T. S. Sripal, tamizakattil jainam, Madras, 1975 E. Ekamparanatan, kalvettil camanam, Madras, 1979 E. kamparanatan, Jaina inscriptions in Tamilnadu: A topographical list, 1987, 464 p. Madras R. Champakalakshmi, Jainism in south India, Delhi, 1974 Aspects of Jain art & architecture, Ahmedabad, 1975 has several articles pertaining to TN/ South India. There is a small red brick temple in tiruvatikai, near paNruTTi. It is called kuNaparEccvaram. This is the Jain basti converted by Appar. Before 640 A.D., all the structures were wooden & brickworks. This is part of the reason why we don't find many Jain structures today. See the following important paper: A. Veluppillai, The Hindu confrontaion with Jains and Buddhists: Saint Tirunanasambandhar's polemical writings. p. 335-364, The problem of ritual, edited by Tore Ahlback, Abo: Finland, 1993. Indira Peterson is writing the Tevaram Saints views of Jains/ Buddhits for a volume (Open boundaries: Jains & others in India) edited by John E. Cort. Sambandar: *********** I heard an interesting story. During 19th century, several debates tookplace on Madurai Jains' impalement. Some people told that Sambandhar has sung that Jains must lose their heads. (arukar cirangkaLaic cin^ta). But Arumuga Navalar challenged them to check the original copper plates on which teevaaram songs are inscribed (at Tiruvaaruur). When the check was done, it was found that Sambandhar prays that Jains must lose their talents during disputes(arukar tiRangkaLaich cinta). That tEvAram is the following: anta NaaLar puriyum arumaRai cintai ceyyaa arukar tiRangkaLaic cinta vaatuce yattiru vuLLamee venta niiRatu aNiyum vikirtanee Kaasivaasi Sendhinaathaiyar of Ceylon, a student of Arumuga Navalar, has written a book on Madurai Jains' impalement from a Tamil Saiva perspective. Kaasivaasi Sendhinaathaiyar, Sri Siigaazhip Peruvaazhvin jiiva- kaaruNNiya- maaTci. printed at Tirumangalam, 1907, 28p. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu *********************************** 1) Wendy Doniger, Hindu myths, Penguin, 1975 and 2) Cornelia Dimmit, Classical Hindu mythology: a reader in Sanskrit puranas, Temple university press give some sources in Sanskrit. Later Hinduism absorbed/appropriated several traits of Buddhism. Sankara was called "prasanna bauddha (hidden buddhist)" by Ramanuja. In northern Sri Lanka, a buddhist vihara became a Vishnu temple. Whether a conversion?? or after a long time of disuse, temple was erected?? In late 19th century, during renovation, a gold plate inscription and a huge Buddha limestone image were unearthed at that temple. A British collector, Sir Henry Blake donated the Buddha image to King of Siam in 1906. It stands now in Wat Benja (The Marble Temple), Bangkok. This early image belongs to Amaravati school of Art (3rd-4th century A.D.) It seems that Hinduization of Buddhist viharas to Vishnu temples have some connections to Hindu puranas calling Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu. References: a) S. Paranavitana, Vallipuram gold plate inscription, Inscriptions of Ceylon, 2, pt. 1, 1983, p. 79-81 b) Peter Schalk, The Vallipuram Buddha image rediscovered, Jl. of the institute of Asian studies, (Madras), v. XII, no. 1, Sep. 1994, p. 115-122. Prof. A. Veluppillai has written that during the declining phases of Buddhism, South Indian Buddhists took refuge in Northern Sri Lanka. In the only surviving Buddhist Tamil epic Manimekalai, she goes to Naga tIvu, which is today's NayinattIvu of Jaffna region. A. Veluppillai, The Manimekalai: Historical background and Indigenization of Buddhism. Journal of the institute of Asian studies, Madras, p. 23-72, IX, 1, 1991 Other references: Peter Schalk, 1) On the origin of Buddhism in Tamilakam, Journal of the institute of Asian studies, Madras, p. 100-105, XI, 1, 1993 G. John Samuel, A comment of Dr. P. Schalk's paper, Journal of the institute of Asian studies, Madras, p. 106-112, XI, 1, 1993 ** K. Sivaramalingam, Tracing Buddhist vestiges in Tontaimantalam, Journal of the institute of Asian studies, Madras, p. 48-90, X, 2, 1993 T. N. Vasudeva Rao, Buddhism in Tamil country, Madras. T. N. Ramachandran, The Nagapattinam and other Buddhist bronzes in Madras Government museum Shu Hikosaka, Buddhism in Tamilnadu: A new perspective. 1989: Madras. Yours, n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Aug 14 14:38:20 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 09:38:20 -0500 Subject: Prof. K. Zvelebil's Address? Message-ID: <161227020317.23782.485549300100353482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aug 14, 1995 Prof. Kamil Zvelebil's Address?? ********************************** Does anyone know the address of Prof. K. Zvelebil, the Dravidologist? I heard that he lives in The Netherlands. n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Mon Aug 14 14:43:58 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 09:43:58 -0500 Subject: Japanese Translationof Tirukkural? Message-ID: <161227020319.23782.13547103369522715446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aug 14, 1995 Japanese Translation of Tirukkural *********************************** Shuzo Matsunaga has translated Tirukkural, the Tamil classic of morals, into Japanese. Does anyone know the publication details? Thanks, n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From lorenzen at colmex.mx Mon Aug 14 16:15:00 1995 From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 10:15:00 -0600 Subject: Radhakrishnan Message-ID: <161227020321.23782.7509011381092072530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Radhakrishnan is said to have once said something to the effect that Advaita Vedanta is not a religion (?religious philosophy) but religion itself. Can anyone give me the source of this statement? lorenzen at colmex.mx From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Mon Aug 14 17:31:32 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 10:31:32 -0700 Subject: Replying to Indology messages (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020323.23782.16852329803864978784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can we then get the Indology list processor to send a copy of the message to the sender by default? It currently does not do this. People who send a message by hitting "R" will then be able to confirm whether they sent it to the list as a whole or not. It is also nice to receive a copy of one's own mail. Mani From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Mon Aug 14 17:34:22 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 10:34:22 -0700 Subject: Jainism/Buddhism in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227020326.23782.4392893803287801565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan writes: * Later Hinduism absorbed/appropriated several traits of Buddhism. * Sankara was called "prasanna bauddha (hidden buddhist)" by Ramanuja. I have mentioned this before, but I must correct this error. Ramanuja has never used the term "prachanna bauddha" to describe Sankara or his followers, though Vedanta Desika, his follower of a couple centuries later, does so. The term is most often used in polemic literature of the Dvaita school, beginning with Anandatirtha. Mani From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 14 12:34:06 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 12:34:06 +0000 Subject: MSS in Orissa Message-ID: <161227020303.23782.4559292175857710761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kenneth G. Zysk said: > > I should appreciate it if someone could give me the proper citation for > the following title of which I am uncertain: > > Sri Kedaranath Mahapatra, _Descriptive Catalogue of Sanskrit Manuscripts > in the Collection of the Orissa State Museum_, Vol. II: Kavya > (?), 1960 (?). It's number 27 in Janert's Annotated Bibliography of Catalogues, but the Kavya vol. isn't mentioned. Janert: _A descriptive catalogue of Sanskrit manuscripts of Orissa. In the collection of the Orissa State Museum (in Bhubaneswar)_. Vol. 1-- . Bhubaneswar (New Capital): Govt. of Orissa 1958-- . 4o. 1. 1958: Mss. 1--257, Smrti manuscripts. By Sri Kedarnath Mahapatra. Publ. by Sri B. V. Nath. (VIII, XLIV, 141, 17 pp.) ... Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 14 12:40:04 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 12:40:04 +0000 Subject: Replying to Indology messages (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020305.23782.14455647209558715709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to the issue of replying to INDOLOGY messages (whether the reply goes to INDOLOGY or to the individual correspondent), Chris Wooff recently said: Forwarded message: > From: Chris Wooff > Subject: Re: Replying to Indology messages (fwd) > To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:54:32 +0100 (BST) > > Dominik, sorry for the delay in replying I'm only recently back to > work after a holiday. > > I'm happy to change it if that is what the majority really want. > Personally I'd recommend leaving it the way it is. People who > don't check the to: field of mail they are sending will cause > problems regardless. In the present scenario this will cause > some personal messages to get sent to the list. If we change > reply-to: to point to the individual then you'll find some mail which > *is* relevant to the list gets sent to one individual. > > You pays your money........ > > Chris For my money, I think I'd rather leave things as they are. I "reply" more often to INDOLOGY at large than to the individual poster of the message. I am prepared to be careful about posting private messages to the full membership by accident. Could we vote? Send me a message at d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk, with your vote as the subject line. Say either "public replies" .... to keep replies going to the whole membership, or "private replies" ... to change the system so that replies go to individuals by default. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 14 12:43:26 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 12:43:26 +0000 Subject: Winand Callewaert Message-ID: <161227020308.23782.16318453030967137119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Winand has email: Winand Callewaert = Winand.Callewaert at arts.kuleuven.ac.be Dominik From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Mon Aug 14 12:39:29 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 13:39:29 +0100 Subject: Norman diacritic fonts for Macintosh Message-ID: <161227020310.23782.14464568488340506177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner asks: >>Professor K.R. Norman's diacritic fonts for Macintosh have now been added >>to John Smith's ftp server. They can be obtained by anonymous ftp from: >>bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. They are currently to be found at: >>/pub/john/software/fonts/norman/NORM.SEA.HQX. > >Er, I only get error-messages telling me that this server does not >have an IP-address. What's wrong? Nothing, as far as I know. I just tried connecting to: bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk with Fetch and had no problems in making an immediate connection. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Aug 14 15:41:27 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:41:27 +0000 Subject: World Sanskrit Conference secretary sought Message-ID: <161227020314.23782.18423927968507262621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Word reaches me from Bangalore that the organizers of the next World Sanskrit Conference are again on the lookout for someone who could work in Bangalore for the better part of a year, specifically to help with the job of liaising with foreign (non-Indian) scholars. The person for this job would need to have good organizational skills, and some familiarity with computer databases. The work is based at the Taralabalu Kendra, in Bangalore. This Virashaiva centre can offer office space, and simple accomodation if necessary. I believe this would be a pleasant job, and a good opportunity to be in Bangalore. The Taralabalu people are delightful, and the team there is very keen that the conference should run well. If anyone is interested in following up, please contact the organizers directly: Dr Shivamurthy Swamiji, Taralabalu Kendra, 3rd Main, 2nd Block, R.T. Nagar, Bangalore 560 032, INDIA. FAX: +91-80-3334541 Tel: +91-80-3332759 -- Dominik From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Aug 14 16:24:16 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 16:24:16 +0000 Subject: Norman diacritic fonts for Macintosh Message-ID: <161227020301.23782.1941419132381232517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins wrote: >Professor K.R. Norman's diacritic fonts for Macintosh have now been added >to John Smith's ftp server. They can be obtained by anonymous ftp from: >bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. They are currently to be found at: >/pub/john/software/fonts/norman/NORM.SEA.HQX. Er, I only get error-messages telling me that this server does not have an IP-address. What's wrong? Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Tue Aug 15 00:00:52 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 17:00:52 -0700 Subject: Radhakrishnan Message-ID: <161227020333.23782.9954680161153777902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Radhakrishnan's statement is not about advaita vedAnta specifically, but about vedAnta in general. Page 23 of his work, "The Hindu View of Life", a collection of lectures delivered in Manchester College, Oxford, has the following line - "The Vedanta is not a religion, but religion itself in its most universal and deepest significance." The emphasis in the first part of the sentence is on the "a", I suppose. I would venture to suggest that the difference in Radhakrishnan's mind, between "a religion" and "universal religion" is roughly analogous to that between "mata" and "dharma". S. Vidyasankar From LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA Mon Aug 14 21:38:57 1995 From: LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA (LEHMANN at VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 17:38:57 -0400 Subject: Norman diacritic fonts for Macintosh Message-ID: <161227020331.23782.7344170641450256055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm wondering about your problem. I had no trouble connecting and downloading the Norman fonts last week. Could it be a problem at your end? Incidentaly, I used the WWW address as ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk. Perhaps you could try that. Best of luck. Julian Woods From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Mon Aug 14 19:26:54 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 05:26:54 +1000 Subject: List Archives Message-ID: <161227020328.23782.2013189163096007427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know if the example of SOPHIA as intentional or not or whether list members are aware that the journal is crosscultural philosophy of religion by the name of SOPHIA (which it has my dawa to edit) has been released on Netspace on a home-page Web as from the current 100th issue. This issue celebrates pluralism and it carries articles by Bimal Matilal, Ninian Smart, Tu-Wei Ming, Max Charlesworth, julia Ching and yours truly (or Karma and the Problem of Evil), etc. There is quite a feast. For sneak-preview (actually free accessfor this trial run) in Netspace GO TO: type the following: http://suburbia.apana.org.au/~deepheat Comments and revies and submissions are welcomed. Purushottama Bilimoria pbilimor at garnet.berkeley.edu From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 15 10:32:38 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 10:32:38 +0000 Subject: Replying to Indology messages (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020338.23782.7824685505113684288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani Varadarajan said: > > Can we then get the Indology list processor to send > a copy of the message to the sender by default? It > currently does not do this. People who send a message > by hitting "R" will then be able to confirm whether > they sent it to the list as a whole or not. It is > also nice to receive a copy of one's own mail. This has always been possible. Send the message "set indology mail ack" to the address "listserv at liverpool.ac.uk". To learn about how you can get the best from the listserv software that INDOLOGY uses, send the message "help" to the same address. Also, try sending "help set" to get a list of all the settings one has control over. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 15 10:41:21 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 10:41:21 +0000 Subject: Result of the Vote Message-ID: <161227020336.23782.4857204613120412155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for voting. I don't think we need to go on, since the pattern so far is very clear. Sixteen votes, fourteen-to-two in favour of public replies. Vive la status quo. Dominik From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Aug 15 15:28:24 1995 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 11:28:24 -0400 Subject: CSX font on Windows Message-ID: <161227020341.23782.9937398721703628584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a question for computer wizzards on the list. While using my CSX compatible ManjushreeCSX font on MS Word (version 6) on Windows, I am unable to display ascii 160. This is not a problem with Microsoft Write. Does anyone know of a way to get MS Word on Windows to display this ascii code. I have now moved my Madhushree Devanagari font to Windows. On MS Word, I have created enough "shortkeys" to make the job entering Nagari easy. However, I would like some device at the level of Windows, rather than be dependent on MS Word. Any suggestions! Third question, if you are still awake. On my Mac fonts, I can make use of even the upper ascii codes for characters. Is there a way to access these upper ascii characters on a Windows-based word-processor? That should be enough for the day. All the best, Madhav Deshpande From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 15 18:44:22 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 11:44:22 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020347.23782.11442674032227678807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> / FROM: Lars Martin Fosse , Aug 15 17:24 1995 | ABOUT: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society | | On behalf of a colleague, I am looking for information (literature) on | Indic critique of Western culture and values, preferably of a more | sophisticated type than the trite criticism of lack of sprirituality etc, | but anything is of interest. | | Best regards, | | Lars Martin Fosse ......... The following editorial, though not specifically a critique of the West, has some interesting thoughts about the Western values of wealth. But you have to read it to the end. I hope it may help you. ciao, sadhu Title: Editorial (from Hindism Today, Jan 1994) Head: If India's so Great, why is she so poor? Text: That heckler's challenge has an answer, and-impassioned evangelical exhortations aside-it's not because God is punishing the heathens. In fact, some think He may have it in for the rich. Those who know them well describe the really rich as a lonely, fear-bound breed, defensively walled away from the less-endowed world, seldom profoundly spiritual, rarely free to do as they please, more captives of their shekels than captains of their ship. Sure, there are exceptions, important ones. But they just prove the rule. The British author who offered this acerbic assessment was probably not in a high tax bracket: "If you would look at what the Lord God thinks of money, you have only to look at those to whom He gives it." India's material shortcomings were tangentially brushed against in Washington DC, at the August Global Vision 2000 gathering of 10,000 Hindus, reported fully in this issue. But in those sessions no real answer was forthcoming, just some muttering about how Indians are too mild and meek. We need better answers to this recurring criticism of India's poverty. Three are provided below, and readers will have three hundred more. The wealth of nations has moved, not unlike a contagious virus, from host to host down through the centuries. This month's health column on AIDS has provoked this paradigm, and if you find the model awkward, just remember that, like AIDS, wealth is frequently acquired by sleeping with someone who has it. Three thousand years ago the Egyptians had a severe case of opulence. It bought them lots of trouble in the form of plunderers under whose invasions the empire succumbed. One by one other victims fell to the fatal fortunes of affluence. Between 2800 and 200 bce, wealth infected Mesopotamia, Assyria, Greece, Persia and Rome. All dead today, for wealth and power attract looters as naturally as carrion attracts vultures. The deadly bounty moved on to India and China, who suffered but managed to survive, due to another kind of richness of which we will speak later. Mexico and the Mayan empires arose in the early centuries of the Christian era, then fell as Arabian and European citadels were erected. In recent times the youthful US has enjoyed the lion's share of global provisions, and Japan and Korea are just sitting down at the table. The hyaenas and jackles are circling cautiously, nervously awaiting any opportunity to exploit the exploiters. And so it goes. Which brings us back to our question: If India is so great, why is she so poor? Answer #1: The first response, drawn from the history just recounted, is painfully simple. India was plundered. Not once. Not even ten times. But continually and relentlessly for centuries. Before invasions began, India thrived on the varied resources that grace her hills and valleys. Water and good land, abundant flora and fauna made the subcontinent among the richest nations on earth. Then, as now, wealth did not go unnoticed. Hearing reports of a land filled with spices and silks, art and agriculture, cupiditous kings sent forth their armies. The Muslims came in 712 and dominated India between 1200 and 1750. The Portuguese, backed by superior sea power, came in the early 1500s, and set up shop in the East. Spain came next, superceded by the Dutch. In 1600 the British took their turn in the spice trade, starting with Bengal, then the richest province. The French could not resist coming to the party-staying a short time in the mid-1700s. European military superiority thus assembled in India quickly drove the Muslims aside, leaving the nation ultimately under British rule until 1947. Thus we have our answer. India's wealth was taken, violently and otherwise, and she has had less than fifty years to recover. She is no more to be blamed for material want than an innocent pedestrian is to be blamed for being mugged on the streets. Rather, sympathy should be shown, and blame placed with the thieves, not the victim or the victim's gentle manner. Answer #2: Our second answer is that India is not as poor as the pundits have been preaching. The International Monetary Fund just recently ranked India the sixth wealthiest country in the world, based on Gross Domestic Product, adjusted for the currency's purchasing power inside the country. India is rich enough that Coca Cola has just won a battle to enter the market, after sixteen years of exile, and France's Peugeot is setting up to make 60,000 cars each year. India has the world's fourth largest standing army, complete with nuclear capability (not cheap, that one). She makes more sweet candied goodies than the rest of the world combined (now that's rich), and flaunts a film-making industry that desperately needs to go on a diet. Sure, there are lots of people in India, and each one's share is far less than many places. But have you ever seen a simple village woman, frail and stooped with her years of carrying bricks in a basket on her head? Her clothes were tattered; her hair tussled and untied. Remember those two massive solid gold earrings, each the size of a plump pomegranate, dangling precariously on lobes stretched thin by the weight? Did you notice her proud carriage, her quick smile, her five children frolicking nearby? She lives in poverty, but can you really call her poor? Answer #3: Our third answer is that, in the things that really matter, India is not poor at all, but as rich as any country and richer than most. Money can't buy you wealth. When the Vedas speak of wealth, artha, there is no mention of money, of stock portfolios, BMWs or beachfront property. Wealth, to the old sages, was a fat, lactating cow grazing in the compound, not lucre languishing abstractly in a bank's computer. Wealth, in their eyes, was ample rains and crops. Wealth is good water, clean air and food plucked from your own garden. Wealth is a sound body and mind. Wealth is cultural and social richness. Wealth is the extravagant beauties of art and architecture. Wealth is music and storytelling, and the time to listen to both. Wealth is having enough to help others, even a little. Wealth is hospitality and leisurely hours spent with family. Wealth is help from friends in times of need. Wealth is lack of debt and freedom from onerous obligations which burden senses and soul. Wealth is the right to participate in social processes and to be protected by just laws. Wealth is a job that supports the family without requiring wretched hours. Wealth is a home filled with happy kin, toiling together on things that matter to them. Wealth is living close to whatever one calls the Divine, being filled and thrilled with That more than with mundane matters. It is festival days off and celebrations of happy dance and abundant feasting. In all of the above, India is anything but poor. Of course, money is another kind of wealth, not to be underestimated, and in this space in the months ahead we will explore some very Indian ways of getting (and staying) rich. Money can keep you warm in winter and well fed in all seasons. It can get you into politics or the country club and fulfill a desire for things, but it can never fill the human heart. It can't help you sleep at night. It can't make your grandma well. It can't give you knowledge or insight, or make you unselfish. It won't enlarge your ability to love. And it will never deepen your communion with the Divine or help you understand the mundane one iota better. So if you have money, don't count yourself rich too readily. And if you don't have it, look around-maybe you are more wealthy than you, or your banker, ever thought. ............................................................... Copyright 1994, Himalayan Academy, All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this news report may not be published for commercial purposes without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. (The idea is simply we don't want people putting it in magazines or newspapers that are for sale without our permission. Redistribution electronically (for free), photocoping to give to classes or friends, all that is ok.) This copyright notice may NOT be removed, or the articles edited or changed without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. For a free three-month trial subscription to Hinduism Today (USA only) send postal address to hinduism at mcimail.com, or write P.O. Box 157, Hanamaulu, Hawaii, 96746. Hinduism Today is also published in Malaysia, India, Mauritius, South Africa and England. For information on subscribing outside the USA, request file "HELP". From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 15 14:10:13 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 15:10:13 +0100 Subject: CSX and OS/2 Message-ID: <161227020339.23782.3955881082407388318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Juergen Hanneder has kindly made available the files in the archive csx-os2.zip which facilitate the use of CSX fonts within OS/2 and the TeX environment. Anyone using any of these platforms will find useful materials here. Juregen's readme is as follows: ------------------------------------------------------------------- The files included in this package facilitate the use of Sanskrit with Emacs, AucTeX and Emtex (LaTeX2e) under OS2 by using the Classical Sanskrit Extended 8-bit character set. The Installation and usage is described in the documentation, which can be produced by running LaTeX2e on install.ins and then two times on indology.drv. The article in tex-os2.tex may give a general idea. All files are free software according to the GNU General Public Licence. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The archive may be retrieved from the INDOLOGY supplementary gopher, gopher-server.ucl.ac.uk, or from the WEB site via http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html, or by plain old ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology. Thanks, Juergen, Dominik From HaroldA at eworld.com Wed Aug 16 00:11:50 1995 From: HaroldA at eworld.com (HaroldA at eworld.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 17:11:50 -0700 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020354.23782.7216668742480246400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----------------------------- Begin Original Text ----------------------------- The inaugural lecture of Richard Gombrich as Boden Professor of Sanskrit at Oxford, "On being Sanskritic," puts forward a forceful argument that the study of Sanskrit is worthwhile. It is also very funny, and includes an interesting potted history of Sanskrit at Oxford. Recommended. Should be available from the OUP. Dominik ----------------------------- End Original Text ----------------------------- Any chance of publishing it on the Indology Web Page? From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Aug 15 17:17:41 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 18:17:41 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020343.23782.12307893745568731431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On behalf of a colleague, I am looking for information (literature) on Indic critique of Western culture and values, preferably of a more sophisticated type than the trite criticism of lack of sprirituality etc, but anything is of interest. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Aug 15 20:14:12 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 21:14:12 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020350.23782.15566653962824671224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your answer. I will pass it on to my colleague! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From garzilli at shore.net Wed Aug 16 02:14:47 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 22:14:47 -0400 Subject: IJTS - Vol. 1, No. 1, August 1995 Message-ID: <161227020358.23782.264925586711599336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am very glad to inform you that the INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF TANTRIC STUDIES (Vol. 1, No. 1, Aug. 1995) is now available at the following URL: WWW: http://www.arcadia.polimi.it/~ijtslist/ IN THIS ISSUE: - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - Paper: THE UNIQUE POSITION OF THE SPANDA SCHOOL AMONG THE OTHERS OF THE TRIKA SYSTEM OF KAZMIR, by E. Garzilli - NEWS - COMPUTER SPACE - LETTERS TO THE EDITOR - KYOTO-HARVARD CONVENTION - COPYRIGHT NOTICE THE UNIQUE POSITION OF THE SPANDA SCHOOL AMONG THE OTHERS OF THE TRIKA SYSTEM OF KASHMIR by Enrica Garzilli Abstract: The first part of this paper explains the concept of spanda, the motionless vibration of our consciousness, according to the Trika schools of medieval Kashmir. The second part shows how this concept was fully developed in the homonymous school, even though it was already present in the others, and gives a historical survey of the Spanda school. The concluding third part summarizes why the Spanda school, even though it was traditionally never considered as a school, can be included among the others with its own place and features. From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Wed Aug 16 01:37:30 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 01:37:30 +0000 Subject: CSX font on Windows Message-ID: <161227020345.23782.16823423450227738776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I have now moved my Madhushree Devanagari font to Windows. On MS >Word, I have created enough "shortkeys" to make the job entering Nagari >easy. However, I would like some device at the level of Windows, rather >than be dependent on MS Word. Any suggestions! If I may add a constant nagging question (or demand) of mine - I am looking for a device in Windows which enables one to allocate whatever characters of whatever font to whatever keystroke (alt+whatever, ctrl+whatever) I want. Just a flexible Windows-keyboard-editor. Does such a thing exist? Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Wed Aug 16 16:02:36 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 09:02:36 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020375.23782.8511739753372189315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I suggest that those interested take a look at the following: Dharampal. _Bharatiya Chitta Manas and Kala_. Translated from the Hindi by Jitendra Bajaj. Madras: Centre for Policy Studies, 1993. Francis X. Clooney organized a review symposium on this volume that appears in the current issue of _Hindu-Christian Studies Bulletin_. The review essay which I contributed was somewhat critical, but still the book is interesting. Dharampal is a historian. To give Indology subscribers an example of Dharampal's concerns, I reproduce a paragraph from the book: "The self-awakening of India is bound to remain similarly elusive and transient till we find a secure basis for a confident expression of Indian civilization within the modern world and the modern epoch. We must establish a conceptual framework that makes Indian ways and aspirations seem viable in the present, so that we do not feel compelled or tempted to indulge in demeaning imitations of the modern world, and the people of India do not have to suffer the humiliation of seeing their ways and their seekings despised in their own country. And, this secure basis for Indian civilization, this framework for the Indian self-awakening, has to be sought mainly within the Chitta and Kaala of India" (16). Though Dharampal is certainly a nationalist, he is far from being a Hindu chauvinist. Copies of the _Hindu-Christian Studies Bulletin_ may be obtained from: Society for Hindu-Christian Studies, c/o Centre for Studies in Religion and Society University of Victoria, P.O. Box 3045, Victoria, B.C., Canada V8W 3P4. Best to all, Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Tue Aug 15 22:23:48 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 10:23:48 +1200 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020352.23782.11717017710763780044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (Lars Martin Fosse) wrote: >On behalf of a colleague, I am looking for information (literature) on >Indic critique of Western culture and values, preferably of a more >sophisticated type than the trite criticism of lack of sprirituality etc, >but anything is of interest. On these lines, I'd like to offer what is perhaps one of the oldest Indian criticisms of the West on record! The following is from Pallad. de Bragmanibus pp.8,20 et seq. Ed. London 1668, translated by J.W.McCrindle's translation. King Alexander, accordingly, when he heard of all this, was desirous of learning the doctrines of the Brahmans, and so he sent for this Dandamis as being their teacher and President... Onesikritos was therefore despatched to fetch him, and when he found the great sage he said, "Hail to thee, thou teacher of the Brahmans. The son of the mighty god Zeus, king Alexander, who is the sovereign lord of all men, asks you to go to him, and if you comply, he will reward you with great and splendid gifts, but if you refuse will cut off your head." Dandamis, with a complacent smile, heard him to the end, but did not so much as lift up his head from his couch of leaves, and while still retaining his recumbent attitude returned this scornful answer:- "God, the supreme king, is never the author of insolent wrong, but is the creator of light, and of peace, of life, of water, of the body of man, and of souls, and these he receives when death sets them free, being in no way subject to evil desire. He alone is the god of my homage, who abhors slaughter and instigates no wars. But Alexander is not God, since he must taste of death; and how can such as he be the world's master, who has not yet reached the further shore of the river Tiberoboas, and who has not yet seated himself on a throne of universal dominion? ... Know this, however, that what Alexander offers me, and the gifts he promises, are all things to me utterly useless; but the things which I prize, and find of real use and worth, are these leaves which are my house, these blooming plants which supply me with dainty food, and the water which is my drink, while all other possessions and things, which are amassed with anxious care, are wont to prove ruinous to those who amass them, and cause only sorrow and vexation, with which every poor mortal is fully fraught... Should Alexander cut off my head, he cannot also destroy my soul... Let Alexander, then, terrify with these threats those who wish for gold and for wealth, and who dread death, for against us these weapons are both alike powerless, since the Brahmans neither love gold nor fear death... Alexander, on receiving from Onesikritos a report of the interview, felt a stronger desire than ever to see Dandamis, who, though old and naked, was the only antagonist in whom he, the conquerer of many nations, had found more than his match. Pallad. de Bragmanibus pp.8,20 et seq. Ed. London 1668. - & -- # The following record is a random selection from Indhist 1.0 # For more information on Indhist, mail A.Raman at massey.ac.nz -- In India there is both a cultivated and a wild barley, from which they make excellent bread as well as a kind of pottage. But their favourite diet is rice, from which a ptisan is prepared like that which is elsewhere made from barley. - Pliny, Nat.Hist. Book XVIII: c.10(22) From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Aug 16 15:33:43 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 10:33:43 -0500 Subject: Tamilpoet - kALamEkam Message-ID: <161227020373.23782.14584851353468110682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kalamekap pulavar ***************** Kalamekam has no equal in cilETai/iraTTuRa mozital and satire as far as old tamil literature is concerned. His birthplace is Ennayiram, a village in South Arcot district. We know this for sure, because of a 17th century inscription of a tamiz veNpA from a Rajagopuram at Kanchi Varadharaja Perumal temple. Dept. of Archaeology found this dated & important poem in 1970's. It says: There are two pretty guys in the world - "Beloved" is the name of the first one, He took strides across the whole world, and hails from Srirangam; "Pouring Dark Cloud" is the title of the other, and his nativeplace is Ennayiram. >From the style and beautiful choice of words, it seems Kalamekam himself authored this poem. Legend says Kalamekam spent most of his life around Tiruchy with a Devadasi. maNNil iruvar maNavaaLar; maNaLan^ta kaNNaN avan,ivanpEr kaaLamukil - kaNNan avanukkuUr eNNil aNiyarangkam onRee; ivanukkuUr ENNaa yiram. o .--. o ____ o . __ ________ _____|__| _ . / o \ / .____ ___ . .____ | | | / /\ /\ | / /\ /\ || ( \ | _|__\_ | | | |__ ( / | | | |__|__| O \/ \/ | O \/ \/ | O \_/ \_\_// | | | | | O L__| | | \______/ / o o . __ ________ ___ . .____ _ ___ .____ . __ ________ o | | | / /\ /\ | ( / | | | ( \| | | | | | | / /\ /\ | ___\_| |__|__| O \/ \/ | O L__| | | O | | | | O |__|__| O \/ \/ | \__/ | / ) o _ ___ .___ .___ ( \| | | |_ |_|_ O | | | _) (_./ ) / o o o ____ .___ ________ ________ ______ o ___ . ______ / o \ ___ . |_|_ / /\ /\ | / /\ /\ | / /\ | ___\_| ( / | / /\ | _|__\_ | ( / | (_./_) O \/ \/ | O \/ \/ | O \/ | \__/ | O L__| O \/ | | \_\_// | O L__| / o ___ o .--. o ______ / (_) . . .____ .___ .____ _ ___ . . __ ._|_ | _ . / /\ | [ _ | | | | |_|_ | | ( \| | | | | | |_|_ | ( \ | - O \/ | \_(_) |___| | | (_./_) | | O | | | |__|__| (_./_) O \_/ / |____| o o .___ ________ ________ ______ |_|_ / /\ /\ | / /\ /\ | / /\ | (_./_) O \/ \/ | O \/ \/ | O \/ | o o o o ___ . ____ . .___ . .___ o. .____ _____ ________ ___\_| ( / | / /\ \ | |_|_ | |_|_ _) | | ( | / /\ /\ | \__/ | O L__| O_\/_/_| (_./_) |(_./ ) (__oTT_ | | O | O \/ \/ | (___/ \____/ / .--. o .--. o o _____|__| _ . o _____|__| . . .____ .__ . .___ . __ / /\ /\ || ( \ | ___\_| / /\ /\ || | | | | | | |_ | |_|_ | | | O \/ \/ | O \_/ \__/ | O \/ \/ | v_/|__) | | | )_| (_./_) |__|__| / ._. o ___ / \ ______ / (_) ._ _. () ._) / /\ | [ _ ( V ) \ O \/ | \_(_) ____/ O \__/ / ) ____ o o o / o \ ___ . ____ . .___ . .___ o. .____ _____ ________ _|__\_ | ( / | / /\ \ | |_|_ | |_|_ _) | | ( | / /\ /\ | \_\_// | O L__| O_\/_/_| (_./_) |(_./ ) (__oTT_ | | O | O \/ \/ | (___/ \____/ / .--. o ________ .____ . | .| .____ . __ / /\ /\ | | | | | || | | | | | O \/ \/ | | | v_/|__) | | |__|__| 0 / Apart from the solitary verses for which he is justly famous, kALamEkam penned two prabandhhams. 1) cittira maTal. A difficult piece of akam genre. I have editions first printed in 1880 and the one from a manuscript found at Alvar tirunagari by Mahavidhvan V. R. Deivasigamani. The second edition was published in 1948 by pe. tUran thru' his putumalar nilayam press, Coimbatore. The two printings of 1880 & 1948 have helped to form the original work with the correct reading. (pirati pEtangkaL pizai pOkki mUlattai n^irNayam ceyya utavina.) This recent edition is widely available in US libraries: kALamEkap pulavariyaRRiya cittira maTal, (kuRippurai: cAn^ta cun^taranAr) 1978, Saiva Siddhanta Publishing Works, vi, 33 p. (ciRRilakkiyap pAtukApput tiTTam). 2) tiru AnaikkA ulA. This beautiful work whose first edition came out in 1870's & tamil arignar mu. arunacalam (editor of a multivolume tamil ilakkiya varalARu series, so far the best.) also wrote a commentary in 1930's. I have the original 1870's edition. Could not get M. Arunachalam's edition yet. Yours n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 16 10:53:38 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 10:53:38 +0000 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020363.23782.10620431598679078894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HaroldA at eworld.com said: > >> The inaugural lecture of Richard Gombrich as Boden Professor of Sanskrit ... > Any chance of publishing it on the Indology Web Page? I'm afraid it is (c) OUP, and I haven't the energy to seek permission to reproduce it (which probably wouldn't be given), and type it out. Sorry. Domini From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 16 10:20:32 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:20:32 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020360.23782.18414772321078202704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your answer to my inquiry. It is an interesting text which I didn't know, and it seems quite "genuine". This is the sort of stuff a Brahmin ascetic might actually have said (although certain Greek philosophers like Diogenes (of the famous barrel) would certainly chime in). I'll pass it on to my colleague! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 16 11:26:44 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:26:44 +0000 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020366.23782.2788819330793090625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found the Hinduism Today editorial absolutely sickening. I used to subscribe to HT, because it seemed to be quite a fun publication, and useful for getting an insight into popular hinduism. It was also interesting for its strange background (American sadhu initiated into Tamil saivism by Sinhalese guru, and now based in Hawaii!). However, I dropped the publication a couple of years ago after hearing the editor talk in London, and also seeing the deterioration of its editorial content and policies. This latest citation makes me even happier that I don't wade through this stuff any longer. It is historically naive to the point of gross error. In the context of India's poverty being traceable to "Imperial theft", for example, in 1800 the East India Company was in debt to the tune of fourteen million pounds [Desmond, European Discovery of the Indian Flora, p.73], a debt that had reached nearly twenty-eight million pounds by 1807; this does not constitute an argument for Imperialism of course, but certainly refutes the simplistic "robber baron" caricature of European involvement in India. I notice that HT buttered its bread on both sides, though, by saying that although India was poor because of being robbed by successive invaders, it was actually rather rich because Coca Cola wants to sell fizzy drinks there. I mean! HT also brazenly promotes a dangerous right-wing fundamentalist Hindu agenda. Past editorials have promoted child marriage and are often xenophobic. The part which first turned my stomach and then angered me was the glorification of Indian Poverty as experienced by women and children: > Sure, there are lots of people in India, and each one's share is > far less than many places. But have you ever seen a simple > village woman, frail and stooped with her years of carrying > bricks in a basket on her head? Her clothes were tattered; her > hair tussled and untied. Remember those two massive solid gold > earrings, each the size of a plump pomegranate, dangling > precariously on lobes stretched thin by the weight? Did you > notice her proud carriage, her quick smile, her five children > frolicking nearby? She lives in poverty, but can you really > call her poor? Of course you can! She is in desperate need of financial support, nourishment, education, and almost every other requisite of basic human dignity and survival that you can name. I lived in an Indian village all last year, and the life that the people lead is not enviable or romantic by any standards. The figures for infant mortality amongst both rural and city poor in India are horrific, as are those for death in childbirth. I could go on. The author of this revolting cant should be obliged to change places permanently with the woman he describes. Dominik Wujastyk From vineet at hotseat.att.com Wed Aug 16 15:35:07 1995 From: vineet at hotseat.att.com (vineet at hotseat.att.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:35:07 -0400 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020418.23782.10962642089668429176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am not a historian or otherwise but it is a widely accepted fact in India that the invasions are the real cause of poverty. India was called a "golden bird" before all these invasions. People were happy. Look at all the stories about India. None or almost none seems to indicate people were unhappy or poor. And look at the stories of post-independence. You need to emphasize or explain people that there are still rich people in India. An indirect resoning and also the most unfortunate part is that today "existence"/money has taken over spirituality in India. An empty stomach can't think of writing shakuntalam or Gita. Best Regards, vineet. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Aug 16 18:39:28 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:39:28 -0700 Subject: Imperial theft Message-ID: <161227020391.23782.14569115887902761230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his communication of 16 Aug 1995, Dominik Wujastyk writes: < In the context of India's poverty being traceable to "Imperial theft", for example, in 1800 the East India Company was in debt to the tune of fourteen million pounds [Desmond, European Discovery of the Indian Flora, p.73], a debt that had reached nearly twenty-eight million pounds by 1807; this does not constitute an argument for Imperialism of course, but certainly refutes the simplistic "robber baron" caricature of European involvement in India. > While I am sure I do not subscribe to the robber baron caricature, I am unclear about the logical link Dominik has in mind. Also the following questions arose in my non-expert mind: Are the statistics about the East India Company's financial affairs reliable? Did it have a debt in England/UK but a surplus in India? Was the debt incurred because opportunities for much easy profit were to be seized? Do the figures for two years or a short period of about seven years constitute a 'certain refutation' of a view articulated with regard to a period of several decades, if not nearly two centuries? Did England/UK emerge richer at the end of colonization than it was at the beginning of the East India Company activities? If it did, how does one explain that? If transactions are arranged in a legal way but the other party does not have much of a say in defining or influencing the legal way, does the transfer of wealth still remain immune to the labels 'theft,' ' robbery,' etc.? -- ashok aklujkar From tmeadow at BearRiver.com Wed Aug 16 18:41:46 1995 From: tmeadow at BearRiver.com (tmeadow at BearRiver.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:41:46 -0700 Subject: Justification for teaching Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227020389.23782.415082740497344415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >HaroldA at eworld.com said: >> >>> The inaugural lecture of Richard Gombrich as Boden Professor of Sanskrit >.. >> Any chance of publishing it on the Indology Web Page? > >I'm afraid it is (c) OUP, and I haven't the energy to seek permission to >reproduce it (which probably wouldn't be given), and type it out. >Sorry. > >Domini > Dominck, Could you give us the reference for this. Sounds interesting. Tony Meadow From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Aug 16 18:42:06 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:42:06 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020394.23782.7495467984775450872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The only communication so far which has truly answered the inquiry on this subject is the most recent one by Lance Nelson. The reproduction of the story about Alexander and Dandamis, while interesting and informative, does not really constitute a critique of the West. Alexander, in his time, was no more Western than Jesus Christ was. Secondly, the story does not involve the concept pair 'East : West' directly or indirectly. The Brahmins have given essentially the same answer even to Indian rulers over the centuries (cf.(a) a'simahi vaya. bhik aam .... kurviimahi kim ii;svarai.h and (b) tva.m raajaa vayam apy upaasita-guru-praj;naabhimaanonnataa.h etc. in Bhart.r-hari's epigrams, to cite just one source.), not to mention that Jain and Buddhist (and Christian, and ...) monks have probably done and would do the same. I would expect that in the debate sparked by K. Mayo's Mother India one would see many examples of criticism of the West. The sources utilized by Wilhelm Halbfass (for his India and Europe) and by J.L. Mehta (the relevance and influence of whose writings is acknowledged in Halbfass) should also contain some valuable observations. ashok aklujkar From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Aug 16 19:23:38 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 12:23:38 -0700 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020399.23782.11962948394073681236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 16 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse asked an important question: One must distinguish between the political and economic unity of India, on the one hand, and the cultural unity, on the other. The latter seems to antedate the former by about 1800-1900 years. India as a nation should not be projected back in time. Nor should the so-called ancient Indian empires be understood with the present Western image of an empire at the back of one's mind. Invaders of India (or rather the constituents of what we now call India) seem to have been repelled more or less successfully until significant shifts in technology occurred and led to invaders adopting unfamiliar military-political machineriess and ideologies. So, perhaps, the questions should be: Why were parts of India not the first to initiate certain changes in military technology? Why did the border regions of India not catch on fast enough to the changes that occurred among their neighbours? -- ashok aklujkar From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 16 11:57:24 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 12:57:24 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020368.23782.12116340624515423516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for your comments, Dominik! As far as the robber baron theory is concerned, those who believe in it should ask themselves the crucial question: If an area the size of India is repetedly robbed blind by outsiders, why is it unable to defend itself? India should always have had the resources material and otherwise to repel invaders. Why did India fail in doing so? Small and weak peoples that are robbed or oppressed by powerful outsiders have an excuse. Others should take a critical look at themselves. I still miss references to a more systematic and sophisticated critique of the West and its values. Best regards, Lars Martin Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From kichenas at math.umn.edu Wed Aug 16 17:57:48 1995 From: kichenas at math.umn.edu (kichenas at math.umn.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 12:57:48 -0500 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020383.23782.5034478644953592844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was surprised by Dominik Wujastyk's remark regarding the East India Company's debt in the period 1800-1807. Is it claimed that the Company never turned a profit, and that the appropriation of the wealth of India was not the reason for its presence? Wasn't its debt in this period related to Wellesley's policy of conquest? As for the initial question, it seems that many answers given have to do with the defence of India rather than a criticism of the West. Western thought, like Indian thought is of course a self-contained and growing set of systems, and it would be perhaps better to criticize individual systems of the West, many of which involve presuppositions which are not admitted as obvious by Indians. One point, however, which is widely presented as characteristic of the West, and as the foundation of the Western conception of progress, is the concept of domination of nature, which, from an Indian standpoint, is quite arbitrary. For instance, it is odd to interpret technology as a means to counteract the natural order of things, since it makes use of nothing but the laws of Physics, which are, of course, more complex than those obvious to common sense. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Aug 16 20:42:04 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 13:42:04 -0700 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020404.23782.17229870758415704981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | So, perhaps, the questions | should be: Why were parts of India not the first to initiate certain | changes in military technology? Why did the border regions of India not | catch on fast enough to the changes that occurred among their neighbours? | | -- ashok aklujkar For the same reason that Japan was defeated by the atomic bomb? From aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com Wed Aug 16 13:52:01 1995 From: aditya at mail-e1a.megaweb.com (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 13:48:01 -0004 Subject: CSX font on Windows Message-ID: <161227020381.23782.13616577880481675282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 16 Aug 95 A Burton wrote: > Of course before you start you must configure it to the codes for > your particular font (unfortunately there is absolutely no standard). > You can use keys which seem logical and the program works for most windows applications.. That is true but I have found a key board assignment by my font maker to be more logical than most. I am using Sulekh fonts and have to use Compose for only a few characters. They did supply the compose program along with their fonts. .oooO Have a nice day ( ) Oooo. -----------------------\ (---( )--------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ http://pages.prodigy.com/FL/aditya ************************************************************************* Aditya Mishra | The opinions expressed herein are absolutely * Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 | not immutable and might have already changed * Internet: aditya at gate.net| by time you read them due to the new evidence* Prodigy: TVDS96A | or data that has come to my attention. * ************************************************************************* From jage at loc.gov Wed Aug 16 19:02:13 1995 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:02:13 -0400 Subject: Gombrich Lecture Message-ID: <161227020396.23782.1367913684646515442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, August 16, 1995 A citation: Gombrich, Richard. On being Sanskritic; a plea for civilized study and the study of civilization. An inaugural lecture delivered before the Univesity of Oxford on 14 October 1977. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1978. 31 p. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Aug 16 20:12:25 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:12:25 -0500 Subject: Teaching Sanskrit (Tamil originals --> Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227020401.23782.2087132020028616716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Justification of teaching Sanskrit ************************************* Tamil Originals & Sanskrit Renditions *************************************** Here are some more examples of Tamil originals rendered into Sanskrit and at times, passed on as originals. 1) tiruviLaiyATal purANam --> hAlAsya mahAtmya 2) periya purANam --> Sivabhakta vilasam 3) civan~AnabOdham as sections of Pauskaragama This issue has been ably treated in the following papers: a) William P.Harman, The authority of Sanskrit in Tamil Hinduism: A case study in tracing a text to its sources, The Mankind Quarterly, v. 27, n. 3, Spring 1987, p. 295-315. The author demonstrates the problems involved in tracing the literary sources of a well-known mythical account of the origins of the city and temple of Madurai, in Sourhern India, due to the Hindu notion that any religious text worthy of honor must have Sanskrit origins. The ramifications of this notion are explored in the context of Tamil literary history and Hindu religious sensibilities. b) William Harman, Two versions of a Tamil text and the contexts in which they were written. Journal of the Institute of Asian Studies, v, 1, 1987, p. 1-18 The borrowing of poetic metres occured both ways. In ancient times, the Jain author of Jeevaka Chintamani and Kampan borrowed viruttam metre into Tamil from Sanskrit. On the other hand, Saptarsi, the author of Mohin Vilasak Kuravanji (published by Tanjore Saraswathi Mahal) has used tamiz AsiriyappA/ akaval metre in Sanskrit poetry.See Prof. Indira Peterson, The play of the Kuravanji fortune teller, Workshop on Cultural production and Cultural History in the Middle East and South Asia, Univ. of Pennsylvania, 1993. Sathyanad Kichenassamy (kichenas at math.umn.edu) wrote: To: Members of the list >(2) Also in answer to Dominik W., here are two examples of >Sanskrit translations of works in other languages which may be >illuminating: > a. J. Filliozat, in his book on the Tiruppavai lists several >translations (from Tamil to Skt.) which were passed, at times, >for the original. The translations are rather inaccurate. > b. Some people found fault with one of TyAgarAja's operas >in Telugu, on the grounds that there was no Sanskrit source >for its subject-matter. A friend of his forthwith composed >secretely a Sanskrit version which was then presented as >the original, thereby legitimating the composer (!). >[The opera was, I think, NaukA caritram. Details can be >found in Sambamoorthy's biography of TyAgarAja. >Of course, TyAgarAja, a contemporary of Beethoven, is >a major classical composer.] A similar story is told in "The Authority of Sanskrit in Tamil Hinduism": In a night-long religious narrative performance of the Goddess story (Devi Jagaran) somewhere in Rajastan, an actor of the group "was convinced that one of the episodes in his group's repertoire, "The story of the Devotee Tararani" was spurious. He says that it must be omitted. But his fellow actors assure him that the story had canonical authority. Several said that they were sure it had appeared as Sanskrit drama, but no one was able to satisfy him by producing the text. Finally, he took out a newspaper advertisement, offering a substantial reward for anyone who could lead him to a copy of this alleged Sanskrit text. When still no one was able to produce it, he finally won his way ..." >It therefore seems that it is indology which should be >defended as a discipline. Also, see the following post by Prof. George Hart ***************************************************************************** Relations between Dravidian (Tamil) and Sanskrit Actually, Sanskrit has many Dravidian syntactic features as well as loan words from Dravidian. A few of these are very old -- even as old as the Rig Veda. Clearly, Sanskrit came to be spoken as a second language by Dravidian speakers, and, as is common in such situations, these speakers transferred syntax from their native languages into the new language. Such features include the use of api, of iti, and of evam, and also, I believe, of certain compounds. These ARE Indo-European words, not Dravidian, but their usage is equivalent to similar particles in Dravidian languages (e.g. Tamil -um, enRu, taan). Prof. Murray Emeneau has written at length on this phenomenon. The North-Indian Indo-Aryan languages are even more akin syntactically to Dravidian languages. I have tried to show that many of the major conventions of Sanskrit literature, and especially of poetry, come from a Dravidian poetic tradition (e.g. the messenger poem such as Meghaduta, the idea of lovers suffering in separation during the monsoon, etc. etc.). The fact is, it is not possible to talk about Sanskrit as a separate "non-Dravidian" tradition -- the truth is far more complex. George Hart. Presumably, the people who adopted Sanskrit (or something akin to it) in North India didn't have a highly developed literature -- there are still some Dravidian languages in N. India like that. On the other hand, history is full of cultivated languages that have been replaced by less developed newer ones -- e.g. Elamite speakers started speaking Persian and Elamite disappeared. People tend to speak whatever language gives them influence, prestige, and the ability to survive -- to some extent, English has this function in modern India (at least in some parts, e.g. IIT's). Most areas of the earth have changed their language 3 times in HISTORICAL times (at least this is what I learned in a linguistics class at Harvard a long time ago). I wouldn't say Sanskrit is Dravidian -- it isn't. But it has many intriguing "Dravidian" features not found in other (non-Indian) Indo-European languages. (Retroflexes, for example -- called murdhanya in Skt). This stuff is interesting, isn't it? GH One of the most intriguing contributions of the Tamil area to Sanskrit is the Bhagavatapurana. It is pretty universally agreed that it was written by a Tamilian and that it is filled with motifs and themes from the Divyaprabandha and other Tamil literature. Its author also uses "Vedic" forms -- sometimes incorrectly! -- to try to make it sound old and hoary. This work has catalyzed Bhakti movements all over India and is, arguably, one of the most important works in the Sanskrit language. An example of a Tamilism is the word avamocana, "inn." This occurs nowhere else in Sanskrit -- it is clearly a translation of Tamil viTuti. On the other hand, the greatest poet of all Indian literature, Kampan, took his story from Sanskrit. There has been an enormously productive interchange between Sanskrit and Tamil. GH From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Wed Aug 16 22:17:45 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:17:45 -0700 Subject: Brahmin? Message-ID: <161227020406.23782.11024245661978175449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A dumb question. While doing some editing, I've suddenly realized that I don't know whether brAhmin, as the name of a varNa, is a Sanskrit word. Of course, I know that brAhmaNa is probably more correct. But how about brAhmin? Or is it brahmin? To be sure, "Brahmin" is in all my English dictionaries. Is it an Indic word, or just an Anglicized form of brAhmaNa? Thanks, Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Wed Aug 16 22:28:02 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:28:02 -0700 Subject: Brahmin? Message-ID: <161227020410.23782.13981873157984534386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In fact, north Indian acquaintances of mine have laughed at me when I say "brahmin", with "a" as in "cat" and "min" as in "inn", which is the typical way to say it in south Indian English. My Hindi-speaking friends prefer "braahmaN", which is essentially the Hindi word pronounced as is, just used in English conversation. Which leads me to suspect that "brahmin" is just an anglicized form of brAhmaNa. Mani From mrabe at artic.edu Wed Aug 16 22:31:41 1995 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 17:31:41 -0500 Subject: ZivacUDAmaNi Message-ID: <161227020408.23782.2089220344351781624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the vAyalUr inscription (EI vol. XVII, p. 149) Pallava king narasiMhavarman II, rAjasiMha (690-728) assumes the biruda, mahezvara-zikhAmaNi-dauptimauliH. Rendered literally by its editor, H. Krishna Sastri as "one whose diadem shines with the head-jewel, viz. Mahezvara (Ziva)," he supposed that this "rather perplexing" title might allude (like "ZivacUDAmaNi ") to an image of Siva, or a linga affixed to the king's crown. Others have disputed this claim, taking such phrases as purely metaphorical (presumably for prostrations to the feet of deity). Question: are there any textual (or visual?) sources that might corroborate either practice, particularly the former which sounds reminiscent of the dhyAni buddha images that frequent the crowns of bodhisattvas? Any thoughts, even half-remembered citations, negative evidence or speculation will be much appreciated. Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University & School of the Art Institute of Chicago mrabe at artic.edu From 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Thu Aug 17 00:43:32 1995 From: 6500carp at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (C.A. Coleman) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 17:43:32 -0700 Subject: Jainism/Buddhism in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227020416.23782.12589366948168377207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Mani Varadarajan wrote: > I have mentioned this before, but I must correct this error. > Ramanuja has never used the term "prachanna bauddha" to describe > Sankara or his followers, though Vedanta Desika, his follower > of a couple centuries later, does so. > > The term is most often used in polemic literature of the Dvaita > school, beginning with Anandatirtha. Has anyone ever suggested that this implied absorption of Buddhism into a growing fourth and fifth century Brahminic renaissance could be attributed to, in part, an emerging lay-buddhist ethic that Tathagatagarbha philosophy introduces in the third century? Of course the main problem with this suggestion entails questioning how much exposure the laity had to such esoteric teachings as tathagatagarbha. CA Coleman "It is madness to wear ladies' straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets." --Annie Dillard _Teaching a Stone to Talk_ From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 16 18:08:13 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 18:08:13 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY defaults (fwd) Message-ID: <161227020378.23782.10866783691993905058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following a brief discussion with Chris Woolff, one of INDOLOGY's masters in Liverpool, the default behaviour of the listserv software has been changed so that new members will normally receive copies of messages they post to INDOLOGY rather than not doing so (the default setting up till now). In other words, listserv will be "set indology mail ack" rather than "noack" by default. Thanks for your input, Dominik Forwarded message: > To: d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:33:28 +0100 (BST) > > In the last mail Dominik Wujastyk said: > > > > Dear Chris, > > > > As you may have seen, a vote by INDOLOGY members was clearly in favour > > of the status quo: replies go to the list. > > > > One of our members, though, has raised another point: when people join > > INDOLOGY, the default is, I believe, "set indology noack". I think > > "ack" would be much better. Any way in which this might not be a good > > idea? If not, could it be changed? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dominik > > > > > Hi Dominik it will be done. > > Chris From vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu Wed Aug 16 22:45:30 1995 From: vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020412.23782.7440966885819631335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > [...] In the context of India's poverty being traceable to "Imperial > theft", for example, in 1800 the East India Company was in debt to the > tune of fourteen million pounds [Desmond, European Discovery of the > Indian Flora, p.73], a debt that had reached nearly twenty-eight million > pounds by 1807; [...] What happened to the debt. I don't think that the EIC declared bankruptcy. There were reform bills. Did the Royal treasury assume the debt? Or was it paid off from later revuences of the EIC and the Crown from India? Incidentally, how much off this debt can be attributed to buying of artillary, firearms and associated supplies, and how much to pure buniess losses? And, Burke notwithstanding, we will ignore `off-the-table' transactions. Surely the professionals in this list with access to decent libraries can answer these questions. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 16 19:33:53 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 20:33:53 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020386.23782.4831944732777168414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Western thought, like Indian thought is of course a self-contained >and growing set of systems, and it would be perhaps better to >criticize individual systems of the West, many of which involve >presuppositions which are not admitted as obvious by Indians. > >One point, however, which is widely presented as characteristic >of the West, and as the foundation of the Western conception of >progress, is the concept of domination of nature, >which, from an Indian standpoint, is quite arbitrary. For instance, >it is odd to interpret technology as a means to counteract the >natural order of things, since it makes use of nothing but >the laws of Physics, which are, of course, more complex than >those obvious to common sense. > > > Satyanad Kichenassamy Thank you for this comment. These are interesting points! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ksn2 at Lehigh.EDU Thu Aug 17 00:52:33 1995 From: ksn2 at Lehigh.EDU (ksn2 at Lehigh.EDU) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 20:52:33 -0400 Subject: Brahmin? Message-ID: <161227020421.23782.7306292317323220268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> brahmin is an anglicized version and brAhmaNa is a prAk.rit version of the original sanskrit word brahman.h please correct me if i am wrong, regards, Kedar -- email : ksn2 at lehigh.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ All problems of existence are essentially problems of harmonium. WWW : http://www.lehigh.edu/~ksn2/ksn2.html From hgroover at qualitas.com Thu Aug 17 01:28:40 1995 From: hgroover at qualitas.com (Henry Groover) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:28:40 -0400 Subject: Brahmin? -Reply Message-ID: <161227020423.23782.7075025905477386148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >brahmin is an anglicized version and brAhmaNa is a prAk.rit version >of the original sanskrit word brahman.h > >please correct me if i am wrong, > >regards, > >Kedar Actually, I've always understood brAhmaNa ("one who knows brahman") as a patronymic of the neuter brahman ("spirit", not to be confused with the masculine brahman, which becomes brahmA in the nominative). And as Mani pointed out, I've understood "brahmin" to be an anglicization of brAhmaNa (as in "Boston brahmins" referring to the intellectually elite of the city). Henry Groover HGroover at Qualitas.com From b9100530 at platinum.anu.edu.au Wed Aug 16 13:30:29 1995 From: b9100530 at platinum.anu.edu.au (b9100530 at platinum.anu.edu.au) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 23:30:29 +1000 Subject: CSX font on Windows Message-ID: <161227020370.23782.12259316049954060472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I have now moved my Madhushree Devanagari font to Windows. On MS > Word, I have created enough "shortkeys" to make the job entering Nagari > easy. However, I would like some device at the level of Windows, rather > than be dependent on MS Word. Any suggestions! I am not a wiz in either Nagari or in computer software, but I have found a program called "Compose" to be very useful for the problem you describe. It is a small, simple, free shareware program which inserts any character (including characters with ansi codes highrer than 127). You run the program in the background in windows and it is activated every time you press a special hot-key (any key you like, e.g. right ctl.). You then simply type b for example and the program will insert for example the code for the dma conjunct in your font. Compose is then automatically de- ctivated and you go on typing normally untill you need to insert another conjunct not on the ordinary keyboard. At that point you hit the right control key again followed this time by say M and the program inserts say the code for hma in your nagari font. Of course before you start you must configure it to the codes for your particular font (unfortunately there is absolutely no standard). You can use keys which seem logical and the program works for most windows applications.. I have been using it for two years and cannot find fault with it. When you get used to it you can type very quickly with it especiall if you map your key board logically. This is what the blurb says in the help menu: "Copyright ? 1991-1992 by Digital Equipment Corporation. All Rights Reserved. "The supported Windows method for entering a character not found on the keyboard is to hold down the Alt key while typing a value on the numeric keypad. Not only must you know the numeric value for the character that you want to enter, in some cases, you must press and hold multiple keys at once. "The Compose application provides a simpler alternative by giving you: -- quick access to characters not found on your keyboard -- application independent access to the current date and time -- the ability to view, select from, and print out all the characters of a font -- the ability to print samples of all available printer fonts" I don't know where you can get it from. If you are interested I could get it put on the Coombs archives here at ANU. Adrian Burton South and West Asia Centre Australian National University b9100530 at platinum.anu.edu.au From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thu Aug 17 13:26:00 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 08:26:00 -0500 Subject: Teaching Sanskrit (Rauravagaama) Message-ID: <161227020451.23782.13839601196783495016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> civa~naanabOtam & rauravaagama ********************************* From: "Dominic Goodall" wrote: >I am interested in Dr. Ganesan's statement that the Pau.skaraagama >contains passages that are Sanskrit redactions of the >civa~naanabotam. I have heard it said that the latter work is a >Tamil redaction of the Rauravaagama; but this is entirely new to me. Dominic is right, civa~naanabOtam (tamil) and Rauravaagama (sanskrit) contain similar passages. (not the pauskaraagama as mentioned in my posting. I told that from memory, Sorry for the mistake.) However, the debate about which one is the borrowing went on for decades in Tamilnadu. There is a good book in tamil that gives 100+ reasons showing civa~naanapOtam is the original and the rauravaagama portions are borrowed ones. m. baalasubramania mudaliyaar (1896 - 1958) civ~naanapOtam mutal nUlE, mozipeyarppu alla. 1949: Saiva siddhanta Mahasamajam, Madras. The author, m. baalasubramania mudaliyaar (1896 - 1958) had an assumed name, mayilai kizAr. His scholarly editions of tEvAram are wellknown. tEvAram (critical edition) from French Institute of Indology, Pondichery heavily rely upon mayilai kizAr's editions. n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Thu Aug 17 09:23:55 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 09:23:55 +0000 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020449.23782.7370564768698869638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On 16 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse asked an important question: the size of India is repetedly robbed blind by >outsiders, why is it unable to defend itself? Furthermore in respose to a note by Prof Aklujkar he wrote : This is certainly correct. But even if we do not project backwards the political unity that obtains today, we are still faced with areas that were large enough and richt enough to fend for themselves - or should have been so. E.g.: the Mauryas and the Guptas. If I remember correctly, the famous Prthiviraja also once managed to repel an invasion with a coalition of North-Indian rajas. I think he failed the second time. ___________________ One of the reasons of the fall of India to the Turks was the Rajput code of chivalry which Muhammad of Ghor and his slave turkish cavalry did not share. If I remember correctly from Akbar-Nama, Prithviraj Chauhan had defeated Muhammad Ghori more than half a dozen times. In one instance he had captured him, but let him go as an act of magnanimity of the victor. In the conclusive battle in 1192 AD, Prithviraj went very reluctantly cutting short his honeymoon with only 12000 men, and Muhammad Ghori upon victory tortured him and put him to death. The carnage that followed has made Heinrich Zimmer note that there are virtually no ancient Hindu temples/architecture left in the North of India. Alas, India had no Charles Martel. The inherently fragmented nature of Hindu society of course catalyzed the process of downfall, but equally significant is the ruthlessness and mass atrocity which is an imperative of conquerers initially small in number. This downfall took several centuries to happen (712 AD- Sind, ~900 AD Peshawer, 1192 AD Delhi etc), and besides the Turkish double rimmed bow and fast central asian horses there was a theological sanction to destroy the idolator infidels culture and convert them to the right way of doing things. As to why India was unable to defend itself; It is for the same reason that Russia, China, Persia and Eastern Europe were helpless in the face of the Mongol hordes, even though they were much smaller in number. The fragmentation of Hindu society, which is aginst the grain of West where egalitarianism is prized, also remains one of the reasons the ancient Hindu culture survived a slow genocide over centuries. In the case of Persia or Egypt, the old culture is mainly relagated to academic discussion. I think that this is a very worthwhile discussion even though there is a little defensiveness from both sides. The original thread and the subsequent sub-threads raise important issue of historical forces have shaped contemporary Indian culture and how it percieves and is percieved by the Western paradigm. I do think that both the East and West have a lot to learn from each other. Regards, J.B. Sharma Assoc Prof of Physics From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Thu Aug 17 09:30:29 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:30:29 +0100 Subject: pau.skara Message-ID: <161227020429.23782.17120031916994675156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in Dr. Ganesan's statement that the Pau.skaraagama contains passages that are Sanskrit redactions of the civa~naanabotam. I have heard it said that the latter work is a Tamil redaction of the Rauravaagama; but this is entirely new to me. Could you tell me which passages of the Pau.skara you were referring to, or where I might read up about this borrowing? (Does any of the secondary literature you mentioned in your posting refer to it?) Yours, Dominic Goodall (I am writing from a friend's account, because I am away from home.) From francois at sas.ac.uk Thu Aug 17 09:31:59 1995 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:31:59 +0100 Subject: Brahmans on the South Coast Message-ID: <161227020435.23782.3031313660124669623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear indologists, In his book on Roberto De'Nobili (1972) Fr Bachmann points out that high caste converts were ostracised. Since they could not marry non Christian Brahman women some remained single and *some moved to the Coast*. I assume that by *the Coast* he means Portuguese territories, but unfortunately Bachmann does not give any reference or says whether these Brahmans affiliated themselves in some way to the Saint Thomas Christians or simply to the Christian communities. Can anyone suggests a source for Bachmann statement? Many thanks in advance. Francois Quiviger Warburg Institute University of London From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Thu Aug 17 17:45:50 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:45:50 -0700 Subject: Bruckner address Message-ID: <161227020466.23782.10733055240051623931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The last address I have is: Dr. Heidrun Brueckner, Abteilung Indologie, Suedasien-Institut, Universitaet Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69 Heidelberg, F.R. of Germnay. . From garzilli at shore.net Thu Aug 17 14:49:11 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:49:11 -0400 Subject: bibliographic query. Message-ID: <161227020460.23782.4080295770518614664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995 PHIL029 at cantva.canterbury.ac.nz wrote: > To multiple recipients of Indology list, > Further, does anyone on the list have any idea as to when the other two > references cited by M. Witzel will be available? > > Early Sanskritization: Origins of the first Indian State. > Proceedings of the Munich Conference on Indian History 1992, ed. B. > Kolver > (pp. 20, forthcoming) > > or, in great detail: > The Realm of the Kurus, Sachsiche Akademie der Wissenschaften, Leipzig, > (forthcoming) pp 160 Why dont you ask directly Prof. Witzel? Sankrit & Indian Studies Dept. Harvard University 53 Church Street Cambridge, MA 02138 e-mail: Witzel at husc3.harvard.edu From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Thu Aug 17 09:58:50 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 10:58:50 +0100 Subject: Ref for paper by Alexis Sanderson urgently sought Message-ID: <161227020437.23782.894022516266272972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am urgently seeking publicatio details of a paper by Alexis Sanderson, "Meaning in Tantric Ritual", dated 1988, which was to appear in A. -M. Blondeau & K. Schipper (ed) Essais sur le Rituel III, Louvain-Paris: Peeters. However, I don't think volume III ever appeared. Prof Sanderson is away and I need to know by tomorrow. The telephone no. of anyone who might know this information would be helpful, at least. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University Lancaster LA1 4YG UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk 015242 61818 From srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Aug 17 11:03:08 1995 From: srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk (Stephen R.L.Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 11:03:08 +0000 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020440.23782.1471184364843852547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hesitate to intrude: I'm not an Indologist, but a lowly philosopher who has only visited India once (though we do have Indian research fellows here at Liverpool, courtesy of the Charles Wallace Memorial Trust). But I'm not convinced that we need any special reason why `India' is poor, or relatively powerless. I'm not even convinced that India is much more of a unity than that other protuberance on the edge of the great eurasian continent (namely Europe). A thousand years ago Europe was a barbarous, filthy fringe, and the light, wealth and music were to be found much further east. Times change, for all sorts of reasons, and probably will again. I'm also not convinced that it makes much sense to talk about `the West', as if there was a single, materialistic, spiritually impoverished, nature-conquering demon in residence in Europe and the European diaspora. Europe has a long, flourishing spiritual tradition. Europeans can - for better or worse - be quite as romantic about their past or their rural neighbours as `Indians'. Talk about `conquering nature' is not a specifically `Western' metaphor: it is neither confined to the west, nor universal in the west. >From which you may gather that I adhere to the `it just did' school of historical analysis: there is no need to suppose that the British, or the Arabs, or the Aryans deserved - in any way at all - to spread their language and mannerisms worldwide, at different periods. That's just the way it happened (so far). Nor is there any need to suppose that the victims of those expansions were uniformly nicer or wiser people than the victors. Nor is there any need to suppose that `the victors' were themselves united: at the time of the British Raj most Britons were at least as much victims as most Indians. I am willing to accept my share of the communal guilt - and some credit - for British behaviour in India and elsewhere (as being a willing subject of the United Kingdom, united by ties of civil friendship, and consequently ready to be ashamed of things done in that kingdom's name), but I can also point out that my actual ancestors were themselves oppressed members of the labouring classes, and had no say at all in what was done in India or elsewhere. Those who criticise `the West' often seem to have a very odd idea of what people `in the west' are like. No doubt those who criticise `India' seem equally naive. Best wishes Stephen Clark srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Thu Aug 17 18:15:56 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 11:15:56 -0700 Subject: Brahman Christians Message-ID: <161227020468.23782.7088506296221167893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Francois Quiviger wrote earlier today: I cannot answer the precise question raised in the above. However, I think it is relevant to point out that there is/was a small community of Saama-vedii Christian Brahmins in Goa, (if I recall correctly) living in a lane of Panji. They observed many restrictions regarding food and marriage. A Marathi artilcle on them by Professor R. B. [= Raa.Bhi.] Joshi was published in a Diwali issue of either the Satya-kathaa or Mauja magazine/periodical sometime between 1970-80. If I manage to get the exact reference I shall post it on this list. It is possible that a collection of Joshi's essays has been published and the article forms a part of that collection. -- ashok aklujkar From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 17 10:22:10 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 11:22:10 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020432.23782.5884652614020920426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >On 16 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse asked an important question: the size of India is repetedly robbed blind by >outsiders, why is it unable to defend itself? Prof. Aklujkar writes: >One must distinguish between the political and economic unity of India, on >the one hand, and the cultural unity, on the other. The latter seems to >antedate the former by about 1800-1900 years. India as a nation should not >be projected back in time. Nor should the so-called ancient Indian empires >be understood with the present Western image of an empire at the back of >one's mind. This is certainly correct. But even if we do not project backwards the political unity that obtains today, we are still faced with areas that were large enough and richt enough to fend for themselves - or should have been so. E.g.: the Mauryas and the Guptas. If I remember correctly, the famous Prthiviraja also once managed to repel an invasion with a coalition of North-Indian rajas. I think he failed the second time. >Invaders of India (or rather the constituents of what we now call India) >seem to have been repelled more or less successfully until significant >shifts in technology occurred and led to invaders adopting unfamiliar >military-political machineriess and ideologies. So, perhaps, the questions >should be: Why were parts of India not the first to initiate certain >changes in military technology? Why did the border regions of India not >catch on fast enough to the changes that occurred among their neighbours? These are certainly important points. But it seems that India - or parts of the country - were always occupied by foreigners in periods when the various Northern kingdoms that could have stood as a bulwark against intruders were seriously weakened. That was certainly the case when the Brits took over. It would therefore seem that internal political and social processes were just as important as changes *outside* India. The Mogul empire could never have been brought down in the times of Akbar and his nearest successors. In the 18th century it fell like a ripe fruit into the hands of a bunch of merchants after serious wars between Moguls and Marathas. The lesson would seem to be that the fragmentary processes of the subcontinent carry a great deal of the responsibility for the misery of India. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From chpeter at relwi.unibe.ch Thu Aug 17 12:06:23 1995 From: chpeter at relwi.unibe.ch (Christian Peter) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:06:23 +0100 Subject: TrueType-fonts with diacritical characters Message-ID: <161227020442.23782.15183791935673416483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for Truetype- (or Postscript-) fonts with diacritical characters for both Windows- and Mac- Computers. Would anybody happen to know any FTP-site from where I could download them or somebody I could ask for. Thank you in advance for your help P.S. Please send your messages to my private e-mail address (as written below) since I am not subscribed to the Indology-Group. ---------------------------------------------- Christian Peter Institute for Religious Studies University of Berne, Switzerland E-Mail: chpeter at relwi.unibe.ch ---------------------------------------------- From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 17 12:32:42 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:32:42 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020444.23782.11503700482261221380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Clark wrote: >I hesitate to intrude: I'm not an Indologist, but a lowly philosopher who has >only visited India >once (though we do have Indian research fellows here at Liverpool, courtesy of >the Charles >Wallace Memorial Trust). > >But I'm not convinced that we need any special reason why `India' is poor, or >relatively >powerless. I'm not even convinced that India is much more of a unity than that >other >protuberance on the edge of the great eurasian continent (namely Europe). A >thousand years >ago Europe was a barbarous, filthy fringe, and the light, wealth and music >were to be found >much further east. ..... Those of you who are interested in this sort of thing might want to read the following book: E. L. Jones (1987). The European miracle : Environments, economies, and geopolitics in the history of Europe and Asia. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. 2 ed.. 279 pages. ISBN 0-521-33449-7, 0-521-33670-8. It tries to come to terms with the economic and political differences between the East and the West. Apart from that, I think Stephen Clark's comments are quite sensible. There is a sort of civilizational merry-go-round in the world. In certain periods, some areas do better than others. Europe has had a peak period during the last 500 years or so, the last century has also carried the imprint of North America. There are signs that we are slowly loosing ground to Asians, particularly East Asians. In one or two centuries, Europa (or simply the West) may be in total decline again. As far as invations are concerned, unlike India we have been lucky. The Arabs didn't quite get us (they got Spain for some centuries), the Mongols didn't get us (though little merit of our own, we were just plain lucky) and the Turks didn't get us (although it was a close call). It seems that in history, you need a bit of luck. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de Thu Aug 17 19:53:07 1995 From: martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de (F.J. Martinez Garcia) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:53:07 -0600 Subject: Fwd: TrueType-fonts with diacritical characters Message-ID: <161227020453.23782.6244536719208003402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am looking for Truetype- (or Postscript-) fonts with diacritical >characters for both Windows- and Mac- Computers. Would anybody >happen to know any FTP-site from where I could download them or >somebody I could ask for. You'll find TrueType Fonts for WIN under (spanish) http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html/software/e-softwa.htm or (german) http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html/software/d-softwa.htm with best Regards J.M. ======================================================================= Dr. Fco. Javier Mart!nez Garc!a Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft | tel. +49- 69- 7982 2847 Universitt Frankfurt | (sekr.) +49- 69- 7982 3139 Postfach 11 19 32 | fax. +49- 69- 7982 2873 D-60054 Frankfurt | martinez at em.uni-frankfurt.d400.de http: //www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html ======================================================================= From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Thu Aug 17 13:04:42 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 14:04:42 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020447.23782.17533258344905896395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Fosse writes: >As far as invations are concerned, unlike India we have been lucky. The >Arabs didn't quite get us (they got Spain for some centuries), the Mongols >didn't get us (though little merit of our own, we were just plain lucky) >and the Turks didn't get us (although it was a close call). It seems that >in history, you need a bit of luck. I don't think this works. Either you treat Europe as a whole or you compare Western Europe with Eastern India and/or Southern India. In the first case various invaders conquered large parts of Europe - some you indicated e.g. the Turks who ruled about half of Europe, I suppose (at their peak). Some were briefer e.g. the Mongols or the Huns. Some came to stay e.g. the Germanic peoples. Arguably even the Latins or the Slavs are remnants of earlier waves of invaders. If the comparison is between Eastern India and Western Europe, then Eastern India did quite well. Were there any successful conquests (as opposed to brief incursions) of Bihar from outside India before the twelfth century or later ? The Maurya-Sungas seem to have successfully defended their heartland as did the Guptas, even if the dynasty changed. If the comparison is with the South, then I suppose there were none that reached the far south before the fall of Vijayanagar or later. Certainly, there was as much internecine war in Europe as in India on average. I suspect that the difference in economic levels comes about between the 15th and 17th centuries and is more to do with conquest of the Americas and European seizure of trade routes previously under Arab, etc. control. There seems no reason to suppose that mediaeval Europe was economically better off than India at the same time. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Thu Aug 17 22:42:11 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:42:11 -0700 Subject: Jainism/Buddhism in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227020475.23782.6943139542376977806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C. A. Coleman writes: > Has anyone ever suggested that this implied absorption of Buddhism > into a growing fourth and fifth century Brahminic renaissance could > be attributed to, in part, an emerging lay-buddhist ethic that > Tathagatagarbha philosophy introduces in the third century? I have, in a non-academic debate on the Usenet newsgroups, alt.hindu and soc.religion.eastern. Mani Varadarajan and I were contributing to a discussion on the various schools of Vedanta. I examined the "pracanna bauddha" criticism against advaita, in some detail in one posting titled Gaudapada. The tone of the discussion is somewhat polemical in character, but in the process a few key issues were thrashed out in great detail. My article on Gaudapada can be found at the alt.hindu archiuves under the following URL - http://rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu:8080/alt_hindu/1994/msg00403.html I am aware of one article by de la Vallee Poussin - Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1900, p. 132 - where he says "At least in some of its ontological characteristics, vijnAnavAda is like Vedantism in disguise." Here the shoe is put on the other foot, to make a mahAyAna school to be "pracanna vedAnta". Personally I have no doubt that the description of tathAgatagarbha as a kind of personal God contributes to the absorption of Buddhism into Hinduism, at least within India - tathAgata is endowed with power and perfection; he has completely eliminated passion and karma and the obscurations of kleSAvaraNa and jneyAvaraNa; he is sarvajna, and he is sarvakArajna, having a full knowledge of the truth and the empirical world likewise. This could be a desciption of an avatAra of VishNu. Another important factor in this assimilation is the popularity of vajrAyAna and yogAcAra schools, which can easily get absorbed into a Brahminical SAktism. > Of > course the main problem with this suggestion entails questioning > how much exposure the laity had to such esoteric teachings as > tathagatagarbha I don't see this as a major problem. We can likewise question how much exposure the laity had to such burning questions as the old Atman/nairAtmya debate, the doctrine of two truths of the mAdhyamika school vs. the upanishadic doctrine of parA and aparA vidyA, and other such esoteric teachings. The laity must have known of the early antipathy between the Buddhist sangha and the VaidIka BrahmaNas, but how much else did they know about the major philosophical differences? Still, the fact remains that Buddhism had a separate identity for a millenium or more and then more or less disappeared from the Indian scene. The idea of tathAgata as a personal god in tandem with the recognition of the Buddha as an avatAra surely had much more power to absorb Buddhists into a Hindu fold, than the supposed philosophical rapprochement that GauDapada tried to effect in his mANDUkya kArikAs. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu Aug 17 22:56:08 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:56:08 -0700 Subject: CRITIQUE OF WEST IN INDIA Message-ID: <161227020478.23782.14095711163642390222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: This direction of discussion is moving away from the original question, but I am obliged to make one small amendment to Allen Thrasher's post. While it is true that there are no substantial physical barriers once past the Khyber Pass and Sulaiman range etc., leaving aside spurs of other ranges and rivers, there were other constraints upon the movement of military in the pre-20th century (at least pre mid-19th C) epoch. Movement of conventional armies was constrained by availability of water and fodder. While light cavalry might presumably travel swiftly in inhospitable country, the substantial military column with camp followers etc. was limited. I would reckon that it was not just a matter of habit that two major battles in the 16th century occurred at Panipat. Of course, Allen would be correct in pointing out that Panipat is not a day's ride from the foot of the Khyber... With respect to Lars Fosse's original query, my own research on a mid-19th century Maharashtrian religious figure, Vishnbawa Brahmachari, has dredged up evidence that in the 1850s he was already invoking the "scientific wonders of the Vedic past" and the notion that the material superiority of the West was consistent with the spiritual superiority of India, which was particularly bothersome since once upon a time everyone spoke Sanskrit and was a follower of Vedic dharm. But, if Lars Fosse is seeking a subtle and sophisticated set of arguments on these points, I am afraid that neither Vishnubawa nor I can oblige. Frank F. Conlon Dept. of History University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 Co-editor of H-ASIA From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Thu Aug 17 16:04:37 1995 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:04:37 +0000 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020473.23782.479145588718263649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote : I still miss references to a more systematic and sophisticated critique of the West and its values. ---------- There are several pointed cross-cultural observations along the lines you seek in the myriad literature credited to Rajneesh. One that stands out in my mind as being quite original is paraphrased thus : The Western mind is concerned with the details of the patterns of the mind whereas the Eastern mind is just concerned with getting out of (transcending) it. Regards, J.B. Sharma >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 17 1995 Aug EST 18:17:18 Date: 17 Aug 1995 18:17:18 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: CRITIQUE OF WEST IN INDIA On the why India kept getting invaded: First, much of the world keeps getting invaded, frequently successfully in the sense that the invaders settle down as a ruling group at least for a century or two (e.g. China, any country in West Asia a.k.a the Middle East). There are also cases of frequent transfer of control from one polity whose center is outside the territory to another, e.g. Florida or Louisiana or Maine. Maybe the more pertinent question, what needs to be explained, is why some regions or nations or states have been invaded or transferred less frequently, e.g. why in all the fights between the Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs and France the Habsburgs as far as I know never contemplated taking over France, even when the Emperor Charles V captured Paris and Francis I. Secondly, without having the slightest qualifications as a military historian it appears to me that India has the problem that it is easier for someone else to move into it from the Northwest than for a state based in India to conquer to the Northwest. On the one hand once one debouches onto the Indo-Gangetic plain there are no natural boundaries such as mountains or oceans for more than a thousand miles. (However as someone noted eastern regions such as Bihar held out a good time. Perhaps their dense population base enabled them to do so.) On the other hand it is hard for a subcontinental state to expand across the Hindu Kush because it must do so through a few easily defensible passes - not to mention that the wealth awaiting them if they succeeded would I think be a lot less than what was available by expansion within the subcontinent. It seems to me that the states that spanned parts of India and parts of Central Asia (the Kushans, the Moguls) began in Central Asia and expanded to India, not the reverse, and tended to lose their Central Asian holdings. Jai Singh's sack of Kabul under Aurungzeb was just a very big raid. If conquerors came into India and went forth from it back and forth, I don't think we'd hear much about India "being invaded" or "losing its independence," or any imperialists drawing conclusions about Indian political and military prowess, or any Indian feeling embarassed. Allen Thrasher From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 17 15:26:04 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:26:04 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020455.23782.9226793128341491650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars Fosse writes: > >>As far as invations are concerned, unlike India we have been lucky. The >>Arabs didn't quite get us (they got Spain for some centuries), the Mongols >>didn't get us (though little merit of our own, we were just plain lucky) >>and the Turks didn't get us (although it was a close call). It seems that >>in history, you need a bit of luck. L. S. Cousins writes: >I don't think this works. Either you treat Europe as a whole or you compare >Western Europe with Eastern India and/or Southern India. Point taken. Actually, the definition of Europe is a bit of a problem, since it has changed with the centuries. Europe stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals is a quite modern concept. What I had in mind was the "core" of Europe, that is those parts that have been considered part of the continent for many centuries, that is again the Northern shores of the Mediterranean and the parts stretching towards the North Sea in the North and the Catholic or Protestant countries in Central Europe (also a somewhat fuzzy term). That Eastern Europe belongs to "Europe" is a pretty modern concept, in fact a British historian visiting Oslo some time ago told about an unpleasant encounter in the British Foreigh Office where an official told him that "we do not consider Bosnia part of Europe". But LSC is right: We must compare regions of India with regions of Europe. >In the first case various invaders conquered large parts of Europe - some >you indicated e.g. the Turks who ruled about half of Europe, I suppose (at >their peak). Some were briefer e.g. the Mongols or the Huns. Some came to >stay e.g. the Germanic peoples. Arguably even the Latins or the Slavs are >remnants of earlier waves of invaders. Whether the Turks ruled half of Europe is a matter of how you define Europe. The Mongols never ruled Europe, although they devastated large parts of Hungary, Poland and ajoining regions. Europe (no matter how you define it) was saved by the bell: The great Khan died, and his sons had to return to Karakorum to decide who was to succeed him. They never came back. > >Certainly, there was as much internecine war in Europe as in India on average. Definitely, and it might have brought the European states down. Few kings understood the significance of the Mongols, and only the king of France tried to create an alliance against them. Without success. >I suspect that the difference in economic levels comes about between the >15th and 17th centuries and is more to do with conquest of the Americas and >European seizure of trade routes previously under Arab, etc. control. There >seems no reason to suppose that mediaeval Europe was economically better >off than India at the same time. I think E. M.Jones (see former bibliographic reference) would disagree to this. Europe was, according to him, marginally better off for a number of reasons (among these: fewer natural catastrophes). I have not got the time to repeat his argument, but read the book. It is quite interesting and thought-provoking. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 17 15:43:30 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:43:30 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020457.23782.11237090743492106163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. B. Sharma wrote: > One of the reasons of the fall of India to the Turks was the Rajput >code of chivalry which Muhammad of Ghor and his slave turkish cavalry >did not share. If I remember correctly from Akbar-Nama, Prithviraj >Chauhan had defeated Muhammad Ghori more than half a dozen times. In >one instance he had captured him, but let him go as an act of >magnanimity of the victor. In the conclusive battle in 1192 AD, >Prithviraj went very reluctantly cutting short his honeymoon with only >12000 men, and Muhammad Ghori upon victory tortured him and put him >to death. The carnage that followed has made Heinrich Zimmer note >that there are virtually no ancient Hindu temples/architecture left >in the North of India. Alas, India had no Charles Martel. > The inherently fragmented nature of Hindu society of course >catalyzed the process of downfall, but equally significant is the >ruthlessness and mass atrocity which is an imperative of conquerers >initially small in number. .... > The fragmentation of Hindu society, which is aginst the grain of >West where egalitarianism is prized, also remains one of the reasons >the ancient Hindu culture survived a slow genocide over centuries. In >the case of Persia or Egypt, the old culture is mainly relagated to >academic discussion. This is debatable. Spain was under Muslim rule for 500 years, but still remained Christian (of course, Christians were more favoured than Hindus). Even if Hindu culture hadn't been fragmented, it would probably have survived. Of course, different degrees of fragmentation is found in all societies, and to the extent that fragmentation is the a reason for India's miseries, it is so because of its extent. My impression is that political systems or states seem less stable in India than in Europe (off the cuff, approximately 200 years seem to be the maximum extent for a state formation in India), although Europe certainly has had a lot of wars and instability - in this century, we have started two world wars. To check this out, we would have to compile statistics on the duration of dynasties and the stability of state formations in both areas. Here I feel rather incompetent. Comments from others are invited. > I think that this is a very worthwhile discussion even though there >is a little defensiveness from both sides. The original thread and the >subsequent sub-threads raise important issue of historical forces >have shaped contemporary Indian culture and how it percieves and is >percieved by the Western paradigm. I do think that both the East and >West have a lot to learn from each other. I agree that the discussion is worth-while, but I don't share the feeling that we are defensive. So far, the arguments have been quite academic and to the point from both sides. Comparing the effect of historical and cultural forces is important, and we shouldn't be afraid of a bit of bias on both sides. It is unavoidable and the only way to kill it is to get it out in the open. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Thu Aug 17 16:15:32 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:15:32 +0100 Subject: rauravaagama Message-ID: <161227020463.23782.165949612245051384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am grateful for Dr. Ganesan's clarification about the Civa~naanapotam. I must point out that though Meyka.n.ta Teevar claims to draw on the Rauravaagama, no connection between what has been transmitted as the Raurava and the Civa~naanapotam has yet been proved. I quote from the introduction of the first volume of the first edition of the Rauravaagama (Pondicherry, 1961---3 years after M. Balasubramania Mudaliyar's death---p.xiv): `Un des traite's classiques fondamentaux de cette e'cole [scil. le Saivasiddhaanta du pays tamoul], le Civa~naaNapotam de Meyka.n.ta Teevar, se pre'sente comme un de'veloppement de douze stances sanskrites donne'es comme tire'es du Rauravaagama. Pourtant ces stances ne se sont jusqu'ici retrouve'es dans aucun des manuscrits de ce texte.' I should be interested to know how M. Balasubramania Mudaliyar argues; but the book you mention is not available to me. Yours, Dominic Goodall >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 17 1995 Aug EST 11:26:11 Date: 17 Aug 1995 11:26:11 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: REF FOR PAPER BY ALEXIS SANDER A search of OCLC shows no listing for v. 1 of Essais sur le rituel. Library of Congress only has this vol. as well. Allen Thrasher >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 17 1995 Aug EST 12:29:12 Date: 17 Aug 1995 12:29:12 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: BRAHMAN AND BRAHMIN Re: Brahmins and Brahmans. Yule and Burnell's classic "Hobson-Jobson" cites the spelling Brahmins from William Cureton's Spicilegium Sacrum Syriacum (1855). Greek and as far as I know Latin retain the "a": Brakhmanoi, Brahmani. A citation that may indicate the source of the "i" is Marco Polo, who has as a plural Abraiaman or Abraiamin, "which seems to represent an incorrect Arabic plural (e.g. Abrahamin) picked up from Arabic sailors; the correct Arabic plural is Barahima. Camoes, Lusiades, 1572 has Brahmenes. Another Portuguese, Acosta, Tractado de las Drogas y Medecinas de las Indias Orientales, 1578, has Bragmen. I wonder if English got the "i" from Portuguese or Arabic. Modern French (and Portuguese) have "a." Is there any Middle Indo-Aryan language where the "a" has become "i" or "e?" Any Dravidian? Time to consult the new unabridged OED. Allen Thrasher From PHIL029 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Aug 17 05:25:16 1995 From: PHIL029 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (PHIL029 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:25:16 +1200 Subject: bibliographic query. Message-ID: <161227020426.23782.4002628295203521539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To multiple recipients of Indology list, Recently I posted a query concerning Heesterman's 'axial-breakthrough' on Indology to which I got a number of very useful replies. One of these was posted on the list by M. Witzel, and detailed a number of articles he has written of considerable relevence to my thesis. This reply prompted a number of questions in my mind, but unfortunately I have not been able to reach M. Witzel since then. Given this situation I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me with regards the following questions. M. Witzel provided the following reference - M. Witzel, The Realm of the Kurus: Origins and Development of the First State in India. The Realm of the Kurus, Nihon Minami Ajia Gakkai Zenkoku Taikai, Hokoku Yoshi, [Summary of the Congress of the Japanese Association for South Asian Studies], Kyoto 1989, pp. 1-4 I requested the university library to interloan this for me, but they can find no record of this article - is this essay unpublished? or is the reference incomplete/incorrect? Further, does anyone on the list have any idea as to when the other two references cited by M. Witzel will be available? Early Sanskritization: Origins of the first Indian State. Proceedings of the Munich Conference on Indian History 1992, ed. B. Kolver (pp. 20, forthcoming) or, in great detail: The Realm of the Kurus, Sachsiche Akademie der Wissenschaften, Leipzig, (forthcoming) pp 160 Thank you very much in advance, Steven Columbus. Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies, University of Canterbury, Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 1, New Zealand. From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Aug 18 00:38:42 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:38:42 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020481.23782.10663093461690735841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Every once in a while, INDOLOGY enters into a discussion in which the non-Indologist Indians get all worked up, embarassed and defensive, and that ever-present cobra of right-wing fundamentalism raises its hood. Dominik says: > HT also brazenly promotes a dangerous right-wing fundamentalist > Hindu agenda. Past editorials have promoted child marriage and are > often xenophobic. I don't claim to represent HT or its editors. I don't even read the publication with any regularity. But I don't think the specific charges of right-wing fundamentalism and xenophobia really hold. I haven't read the editorial promoting child-marriage, but let me point out that child marriage is not necessarily a Hindu thing, much less a right-wing fundamentalist Hindu thing. The real right-wing Hindutva fundamentalists in India have other goals in mind. While it is important to recognize the dangers posed by right-wing fundamentalists of any religion, it is also important to first recognize who is really a fundamentalist and who is not. Yesterday I looked into the home page of HT on the web for the first time, and read about the temple they are building in Kuai island. The account of the ceremonies is enough to disprove charges of xenophobia. In addition to Sivacharya priests from Madras and Chidambaram, Sivaya Subramuniyaswami had a Hawaiian high-priestess and Kahuna priests participate with their own rituals. And this, just because there used to be an old Hawaiian temple at the same site centuries ago. Hardly evidence of xenophobia, is it? As I see HT and the Kuai Adheenam, they are just one group among so many Saiva groups all over the world. They seem to have a wealthy following in Hawaii and in southeast Asian nations, and that is a prime reason for whatever clout and influence they may enjoy. HT does not really represent Hinduism inspite of its "Hindu of the year" awards. In this matter, they are only about as much Hindu or non-Hindu as ISKCON is. As for dangerous right-wing fundamentalist Hindu agenda, it is absolutely no comparison to the right-wing fundamentalist Christian agenda represented by the rich and influential Pat Robertson and like-minded individuals and groups in the continental US. Regards, S. Vidyasankar From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Aug 18 00:41:11 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:41:11 -0700 Subject: CRITIQUE OF WEST IN INDIA Message-ID: <161227020483.23782.894184793496278999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread has become more a discussion of India's history than a discussion of Indian criticisms of the West. Let me get back to the original issue that Dr. Fosse raised. India never tried to assess the West in ancient or medieval times. Except for a few stray references to yavaNas and mlecchas, there is not much to go on. Halbfass has a good collection of references in his chapter on Indian xenology. It is only in the 19th and the 20th centuries that the West (as an entity by itself) has impinged upon Indian minds to any significant extent. Gandhi and Vivekananda are good sources for criticisms, if you are prepared to overlook the claims of spiritual superiority that they assert for India. Also, you will find many more pieces of criticism of the West in contemporary Indian journalism than anywhere else. These are mostly in English and some of the major Indian languages, none in Sanskrit or Pali. On the one hand, this makes things easier - you have good documentation, you don't have 15 different versions of the same work and you don't have missing sections, so you don't have to translate, or speculate about what they really mean, or bother about filling in the gaps. On the other hand, they leave no doubt about what exactly they think of the West, and therefore may not exactly be music to lay Western ears. Modern Indian journalistic criticisms of the West are by necessity political in nature, partly by virtue of India's legacy as an ex-colony. Depending upon the journalist, they may also be influenced by Marxist thinking, but they remain uniquely Indian criticisms nevertheless. They are also mostly criticisms of the contemporary West, not of classical Greece/Rome, nor of Imperial Europe. This may not be what you are looking for, but they represent a significant trend in modern India's evaluation of the West as an Other that helps in formulating its conception of its own Self. However, these journalistic criticisms do not arise from a blind pride in things Indian (spiritual or otherwise). The same journalists do not hesitate to tear apart Indian thinking on many of the same issues on which they find fault with the West. Read any issue of magazines like India Today or Frontline and daily newspapers like The Times of India, The Indian Express and The Hindu. The West (meaning Western Europe and USA) comes in for a lot of criticism for the world wars it imposed upon unwilling peoples, for the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for its handling of the cold war (including Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan), the Gulf war, Rwanda, Somalia and Bosnia, for Britain's war in the Falkland Islands (anyone remember that any more?), for the US role in the Philippines and Panama, for the debt trap that the IMF and the World Bank push developing nations into, for the Mexican peso crisis, for the Western xenophobia against Muslims (Iran and Palestine), for its nuances of "cultural imperialism", all the way down to the recent issues of using Indian women as guinea pigs in the UK and the debate over affirmative action in the US. A very recent example is a May '95 issue of Frontline in which Jayati Ghosh examines the Oklahoma bombing case and the consequent anti-Iran/Arab voices that were raised in the US, (very publicly and very loudly too) and, more interestingly, how no one even said a simple sorry to Iranian/Arab Americans after the real bomber was found to be a white American. Regards S. Vidyasankar From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Fri Aug 18 00:50:40 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:50:40 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020485.23782.1917725758280937636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Hinduism Today Vidyasankar writes: * In this matter, they are only about as much Hindu or * non-Hindu as ISKCON is. However, unlike ISKCON, HT claims both implicitly and explicity to speak for all Hindus, and puts forth a rather distasteful face of Hinduism. They are fundamentalists in the sense that they are absolute literalists, who, unlike ISKCON, have a very poor understanding of Sanskrit and Indian vernaculars as well as Indian scripture. They base their belief system on English "catechisms" put out by their guru, who himself claims to have invented a language or two. Using this base of ignorance, they then propound their flawed view of Hinduism as "the" Hinduism, confusing the already confused Hindus and non-Hindus even more. Their oft-reprinted spread on the many religious sects in India is ample evidence of this ignorance, as is their opinion on "the" Hindu view of priesthood, astrology, etc. I have tried to have a conversation with their editor-in-chief about these issues, only to come away with the feeling that I have hit my head against a stone wall, to borrow a phrase from Sayana. * As for dangerous right-wing fundamentalist * Hindu agenda, it is absolutely no comparison to the right-wing * fundamentalist Christian agenda represented by the rich and * influential Pat Robertson and like-minded individuals and groups in * the continental US. Completely agree. I think Hinduism Today is annoying but probably harmless. Mani From j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 17 23:57:09 1995 From: j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:57:09 -0600 Subject: Heidrun Bruckner address? Message-ID: <161227020465.23782.8672446453002411997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone provide me with an address for Heidrun Bruckner, either email or snailmail? I'd be most grateful. Julia Leslie From Martin.Gaenszle at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Thu Aug 17 19:24:11 1995 From: Martin.Gaenszle at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Martin Gaenszle) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 21:24:11 +0200 Subject: Bruckner address Message-ID: <161227020470.23782.1435917487039049799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995 aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca wrote: > The last address I have is: > > Dr. Heidrun Brueckner, Abteilung Indologie, Suedasien-Institut, > Universitaet Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69 Heidelberg, F.R. of > Germnay. . > > Heidrun Brueckner is no longer in Heidelberg. Here is the present address: Prof. Heidrun Brueckner Seminar fuer Indologie Muenzgasse 30 72074 Tuebingen --------------------------------------------- Dr. Martin Gaenszle Seminar fuer Ethnologie/ Suedasien-Institut Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 D-69120 Heidelberg e-mail: martin.gaenszle at urz.uni-heidelberg.de --------------------------------------------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 01:11:31 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 02:11:31 +0100 Subject: Brahmin? Message-ID: <161227020487.23782.16753163574012326481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Nelson said: > Or is it brahmin? To be sure, "Brahmin" is in all my English > dictionaries. Is it an Indic word, or just an Anglicized form of brAhmaNa? I am pretty certain it is an anglicized word. It is not Sanskrit, anyhow, and I've never seen it in an Indic-language text. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 01:51:07 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 02:51:07 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020490.23782.5056053900931314906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vineet, You said > I am not a historian or otherwise but it is a widely accepted > fact in India that the invasions are the real cause of poverty. With respect, Vineet, I think that the lack of long, careful study of India's history is precisely why so many people believe these caricatures of historical causality. (Actually, that's beginning to sound like quite a good reason for promoting the teaching of Indian culture and history!) Your are right that this is what is widely believed, but that doesn't make it true, necessarily. It seems reasonable to argue that the causes of India's poverty are both more nuanced and more obvious than the theory that I have caricatured as the "robber baron" theory of Imperialism. The "nuanced" bit is much more hard to get to grips with, of course, and involves difficult studies of caste, imperial economics, technological progress and/or stagnation, and several other issues. There were indeed some real robber barons, amongst whom I think I would count Mahmud of Ghazni. (What do others think of this? Were there "mitigating factors" or "culture-bound" explanations for what Mahmud did?) But the Moghuls both took and gave, not least in contemporary tourist revenues. (Like mad Maximilian with his fairy castle in Bavaria.) It is a much more sensitive and controversial thing to start talking about how much the Raj gave to India, as well as how much it took, but the historical debt is arguably in both directions. To try to assess the actual balance of payments for any of this would be fiendishly difficult to the point of impossibility, since one would want any such reckoning to take into account all sorts of incalculables like language, art, music and even genes, as well as more obvious things like judicial systems, jewellery, cloth, railways, canals, salaries, botanical transfers, and so forth. Mostly, my impression is that the people who use arguments about historical indebtedness most vociferously are those who have the least factual basis for their broad claims. The "obvious" bit is, of course, over-population. > India was called a "golden bird" before all these invasions. > People were happy. Look at all the stories about India. None or almost > none seems to indicate people were unhappy or poor. This isn't true. There are poor people on nearly every page of writing from all periods of India's past: the literature abounds in thieves, beggars, poor wandering brahmanas, rogue ascetics, prostitutes, pimps, poor farmers, destitute widows, poor tribals, abandoned disabled people, wandering lepers, and so on. Just like in the history of any country. Best wishes, Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 02:02:12 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 03:02:12 +0100 Subject: Brahmin? Message-ID: <161227020493.23782.16632517783407361017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Oxford English Dictionary confirms that Brahmin is an English word. Interestingly, it says "some of the older Eng. forms were derived from or influenced by the Greek spelling (pl.), Latin brachmaani, -es, and Medieval Latin corruptions. The form Brahmin, a corruption of the Indian vernacular pronunciation ...". The first citation seems to be "Bramini" in 1553 (the earlier 1481 citation is "bragman"). Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 02:48:28 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 03:48:28 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020496.23782.7586245173715118739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar, Your moderating tone about Hinduism Today not being xenophobic is quite right; I overstepped the mark in my criticism. But I still do think it is more fundamentalist than you give credit for. The child marriage thing was -- if I recall -- presented by HT as being a special value of Hinduism, though as you rightly say it isn't actually restricted to Hindus as a practice. I tend to come on rather strong on matters of right-wing and fundamentalist Hindu politics, I know, and perhaps I am over-sensitised to it. But this happened due to the experience of living in India recently for a longish time, and seeing at first hand just how widespread these ideas are, and how very damaging they are to civilized life in India. There were very violent riots in Bangalore while I was there, in which scores of people died, mostly Muslims. My children were briefly at (slight) risk, and most people we knew had to stay indoors for about three days while the trouble burned itself out. Some parts of town were a shambles afterwards, and I was told of "piles of corpses". The rhetoric in the papers and about town at the time was pretty grotesque, with some leaders openly inciting mobs to communal violence. I often get the feeling that people living most of their time in Europe or America, reading publications like HT, don't realize the implications of some of the more fundamentalist views expressed. In India, people are being killed over these issues. > The real right-wing Hindutva > fundamentalists in India have other goals in mind. What goals were you thinking of? Apart from power? > As for dangerous right-wing fundamentalist > Hindu agenda, it is absolutely no comparison to the right-wing > fundamentalist Christian agenda represented by the rich and > influential Pat Robertson and like-minded individuals and groups in > the continental US. I'm not comparing. But of course ideologies that lead to cruelty and injustice are to be abhorred, whether masquerading as religion or politics. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 03:15:14 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 04:15:14 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020499.23782.12546236676595668546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I sense the (very enjoyable) thread of conversation is moving on from the topic of why India is poor etc., and I don't want to hold it back, but I feel that I must at least mention a factor that surprisingly hasn't been brought up yet (unless I missed it): the scientific and technological revolution in Europe spanning about 1550--1700. There is a vast literature about the reasons for this transformation of thought and practice, why it took place when and where it did, and so forth. I personally like the "it just did" historical argument which was mentioned earlier (great posting). But whatever the reasons, the fact remains that in a relatively short period of time, ideas and methods of production developed in Europe which were to transform society, first locally and later globally, and which led to the creation of previously unheard-of wealth on a colossal scale. Before the Scientific Revolution, daily life for many people in Europe seems to have been strikingly similar to what we know about India at the same time. The gulf starts to grow as Europe begins to develop the precursors to modern technological industrialization. I am not a technological determinist, but certainly this has to be a major factor in the equation. An under-discussed question in the history and philosophy of science, in my view, is the issue of how non-European countries who are today basing their economies, politics, and life-styles on the fruits of these twin revolutions come to terms with the fact that the ideas their industries and economies are using, and which are so obviously successful in creating the desired "modern lifestyle", were in most cases created abroad. The most famous wrestler with this question is perhaps Joseph Needham, who seems to have believed, unfortunately, that absolutely everything was discovered first in China. Dominik From agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 07:43:20 1995 From: agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk (Anthony Good) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 07:43:20 +0000 Subject: Brahman or Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020501.23782.11233486967278741945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Chambers dictionary (as usual, much more helpful in these matters!) Brahman and Brahmin are alternative spellings, likewise Brahmanic, Brahminic. *However, the -min ending is indicated to be derogatory.* I must say that, like many others, I have always used the -man ending, though not as far I can remember for that specific reason, so this whole debate seems to be based on a false premise. Tony Good From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Fri Aug 18 14:59:00 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 07:59:00 -0700 Subject: Brahman or Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020515.23782.4083867430430088141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Anthony Good wrote: > *However, the -min ending is > indicated to be derogatory.* I must say that, like many others, I > have always used the -man ending. My South Indian BrAhmaNa friends and teachers, when speaking English, use the word "Brahmin." I've never heard it used in a derogatory sense, has anyone? The -min ending is handy when one is writing in English about VedAnta, to avoid confusion with the term "Brahman" (ultimate Reality). Thanks to all who have responded on this question (I don't think it has become a debate), which was prompted by a copy editor at a well-known academic press who wanted to change my Brahmin-s to _brAhmin_: lower case, italics, with a macron over the a. Hmmmmmm. Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From Williams at wplink.dt.uh.edu Fri Aug 18 13:17:33 1995 From: Williams at wplink.dt.uh.edu (Pat Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 08:17:33 -0500 Subject: Telugu & Hindi self-teaching Message-ID: <161227020509.23782.225697651754064409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently there were some useful postings about programs for self-teaching in Sanskrit. Does anyone know of programs through which one can study Hindi and Telugu on one's own. Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Patrick S. Williams | Social Sciences, U. of Houston-Downtown pwilliams at uh.edu | One Main Street, Houston, TX 77002-1001 | Voice: (713) 221-8982, Fax: (713) 221-8144 From mrabe at artic.edu Fri Aug 18 13:30:07 1995 From: mrabe at artic.edu (mrabe at artic.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 08:30:07 -0500 Subject: ZivacUDAmaNi Message-ID: <161227020512.23782.8652215005447647609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the vAyalUr inscription (EI vol. XVII, p. 149) Pallava king NarasiMhavarman II rAjasiMha (690-728) assumes the biruda, mahezvara-zikhAmaNi-dauptimauliH. Rendered literally by its editor, H. Krishna Sastri as "one whose diadem shines with the head-jewel, viz. Mahezvara (Ziva)," he supposed that this "rather perplexing" title might allude (like "zivacUDAmaNi ") to an image of Siva, or a linga affixed to the king's crown. Others have disputed this claim, taking such phrases as purely metaphorical (presumably for prostrations to the feet of deity). Question: are there any textual (or visual?) sources that might corroborate either practice, particularly the former which sounds reminiscent of the dhyAni buddha images that frequent the crowns of bodhisattvas? Any thoughts, even half-remembered citations, negative evidence or speculation will be much appreciated. Michael Rabe Saint Xavier University From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Fri Aug 18 15:46:30 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (vidya at cco.caltech.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 08:46:30 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020517.23782.10867776965417069066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik : > I tend to come on rather strong on matters of right-wing and > fundamentalist Hindu politics, I know, and perhaps I am over-sensitised > .... > I often get the feeling that people living most of their time in Europe > or America, reading publications like HT, don't realize the > implications of some of the more fundamentalist views expressed. In > India, people are being killed over these issues. I know, which is why I am sensitive about fundamentalist views too. But as far as I can see, HT seems more interested in presenting a somewhat unique, shall we say, version of Hinduism, based more upon their guru's catechism and the Kuai monastery's need to gather a lasting following. In addition to that, HT enters into a defensive mode about old social practices in India, and strangely enough, also about some New Age ideas about religion. It is difficult to see a relation between the causes HT champions and the Hindu-Muslim strife in India. > > The real right-wing Hindutva > > fundamentalists in India have other goals in mind. > > What goals were you thinking of? Apart from power? Much more. The Hindutva brand of fundamentalism has little to do with inter- preting religion in a literal sense. By its very nature, the momentum of the Hindutva crowd cannot rest even if they succeed in obtaining power. The irony of it all is that they have to be accomodated if they obtain that power through an election in the present democratic setup. I compare the Hindutva ideology to the demon who ate everything that came his way, till he had nothing left but his own body to eat, and was left with only a head. I hesitate to call it completely fascist, but it can get pretty close, if pushed to its logical conclusion. Therein lies the real danger. Regards S. Vidyasankar From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 08:04:41 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 09:04:41 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020504.23782.2336462550933051882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Fosse writes: >Point taken. Actually, the definition of Europe is a bit of a problem, >since it has changed with the centuries. Europe stretching from the >Atlantic to the Urals is a quite modern concept. What I had in mind was the >"core" of Europe, that is those parts that have been considered part of the >continent for many centuries, that is again the Northern shores of the >Mediterranean and the parts stretching towards the North Sea in the North >and the Catholic or Protestant countries in Central Europe (also a somewhat >fuzzy term). That Eastern Europe belongs to "Europe" is a pretty modern >concept, in fact a British historian visiting Oslo some time ago told about >an unpleasant encounter in the British Foreigh Office where an official >told him that "we do not consider Bosnia part of Europe". But LSC is right: >We must compare regions of India with regions of Europe. If you define Europe in terms of a supposed 'core', this is a bit circular in the present context - effectively, the 'core' is the part that didn't come under Muslim control in Ottoman times. In truth of course both the concept of India and the concept of Europe as political entities are modern inventions. The Roman Empire was Mediterranean based. Similarly the ancient Indian empires (whatever their social organization) seem to have been Ganges-Indus based with some extensions into the area of present-day Afghanistan. Of course there are cultural continuities (and discontinuities) in both cases. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Fri Aug 18 17:00:58 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:00:58 -0700 Subject: Brahman or Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020523.23782.5025551395966009357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It appears to me that the brahmin/brahman difference is a south Indian / north Indian one, as I implied before, with no condescension implied in either. Almost invariably, south Indian writers use "brahmin". (There are a few exceptions, such as in the title of K. Rangachari's monograph "Sri Vaishnava Brahmans".) "Brahman" I have seen much more often in the writings of north Indians; I think this reflects the pronounciation of the word in the spoken English of the different regions. Since Western Indologists are more acquanted with north Indians and north Indian writers than otherwise, it is but natural that "brahman" is used more often by Western writers. Mani From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 18 17:09:32 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:09:32 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020526.23782.18206349836588190845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | Dominik says: | |> HT ..... | > .... Past editorials have promoted child marriage and are | > often xenophobic. | | S. Vidyasankar says: | I don't claim to represent HT or its editors. | | I haven't read the editorial promoting child-marriage, but let me point | out that child marriage is not necessarily a Hindu thing, much less a ........... Namaste Dominick: I was uanble to find an editorial promoting child marriage. Can you tell me the volume/issue?? I did find the publisher's remarks on arranged marriage, that is possibly what you are referring to. Other readers: It is attached, if you care to read it and judge for yourself. It appears the publisher, Sivaya Subramuniyswami, was mainly quoting someone else. And, this possibly could be material for consideration if seeking modern Eastern view critisism of the West, as we attempt to get away from attacks, and back to the original question of this thread. FYI, I am a devotee of Sivaya Subramuniyswami, but don't claim to represent either him or HT. Also it is my observation that Dominik's antagonism seemed to arise after the publication of the Hindu Time Line articles in HT. Is that correct? Perhaps it conflicted with some of your research or beliefs, Dominick? I'm only guessing. I saw your letter at that time attacking their research published in their letters to the editor section. I do not wish to promote arguments, by the way, I'm just trying to provide the material to which you referred to for benefit of other readers, so they may judge impartially. HT's wish is to remain very low profile and not stir up controversy on the net, as I understand it. So apologies if anyone should find my response here offensive in any way. I'm trying to be peaceful. And fair. Om Shanti, Sadhunathan Nadesan ................ Head: Publisher's Desk (Jan 94) Subhead: The Modern Matchmakers Text: Ruthe Stein, who writes for the San Francisco Chronicle, recently offered an insightful insight about arranged marriages: "That they might be worth a try." We were pleased when we read the article, which we have permission to excerpt for you to enjoy. It seems that the old ways are now being looked at very closely as solutions to the growing problem of divorce, half-orphaned children and a nearly barbaric society. Enjoy what Ruthe has to say to the people of California in that esteemed journal. "Americans might want to reconsider their prohibition (against arranged marriages). Letting people choose their own mates hasn't work out as well as our forebearers might have hoped. Anyone who married in the past decade has more than a 50 percent chance of getting divorced. It makes you wonder about the odds of staying married: What's love got to do with it? "There may have been something to the old way-letting the families, not raging hormones, decide who is right for you. Family background weighed as heavily in the matchmaking decision as the bride's dowry. The idea was that two young people from similar backgrounds would grow to care for each other. However, the case for bringing back arranged marriages isn't that they are more likely to endure-who knows, given that divorce was rarely an alternative until relatively recently?-but that the newer ways to meet someone don't seem to be working. Singles are settling into solitary lives, often not of their choosing. Many would like someone to come home to, but they don't want to go out and look. "When marriages were arranged, few got left behind or had to go begging. Families took care of their own. They kept track of the offspring of other families. Word traveled, even across oceans, of a likely prospect. "My husband's mother, Helen, for instance, was still single at 26, living in a hill town in Greece with no marital prospects. Aware of her plight, her brother George in Quincy, Illinois, arranged for her to marry his friend Louis, who was from their hometown and who had also settled in Quincy. George even went and brought her to America. Although Helen had no memory of Louis-he had left Greece when she was small-she married him on George's say-so. "They were married 55 years before death parted them. My husband doesn't believe his parents were ever passionately in love, but they cared deeply for each other and took care of each other. How many lonely singles today wouldn't be content with that? "Now people pay hundreds of dollars to dating services to do what Uncle George did. It is unlikely that these services could do better than family members, who not only know and love you, but also have an interest in seeing that you don't end up with a loser. With an arranged marriage, there would be no hideous surprises like the one sprung on my friend Mary. She found out the man she had been dating was living with another woman. Would someone your family vouched for pull that kind of a stunt? "There also wouldn't be any dancing around the marriage issue. Nowadays, when relationships turn serious, there is much dragging of feet about when and if to get married. Now that couples can live together, nuptials can be put off indefinitely. Not so with an arranged marriage; it's a done deal. "Of course, arranged marriages would have to be modified to suit modern life. Presumably, the betrothed would want to have some say. Maybe there could be something like a prenuptial agreement that would give them an out short of the altar. Allowances would also have to be made for arranged marriages not working out. In the age of divorce-light years from the age of innocence-the question would be: how many arranged marriages is a person entitled to in a lifetime?" Thank you, Ruthe Stein. We are glad you are bringing forward tradition. We define tradition as the best of what the centuries have preserved for us to carry into the future. Another essay on the same subject came to us from Associated Press a few days later, titled "Love, Indian Style" and written by Washington Post staff writer Shanthy Nambiar. "Paritosh and Shikha Malaviya were married 11 months after being introduced in Salisbury, Md., by eager family members living in America and India. Having gone to college in the United States, they were initially skeptical of the arrangement. They had never met-how could they have enough in common to get married? And marriage-from the Western standpoint at least-should start with magic, an inexplicable mutual attraction that leads to dating and culminates in the commitment of romantic love. Paritosh and Shikha never felt that first spark. "But unbeknown to them, they were fated to come together. 'I never had met him before, although I had heard his name and stories about him (from relatives) since 11th grade,' says Shikha Malaviya, 22, giggling at her home in Silver Spring. Her aunt, who had stolen a photograph of her, showed it to Paritosh's mother, who showed it to the prospective groom. 'What they do is, little by little, they drop names and hints.IThey sort of slowly poison you,' says Shikha. 'It was very weird. But my parents never forced me to marry him.' They didn't have to. She fell in love with Paritosh, she says, after their second arranged meeting. And within a few days, he had fallen in love with her. "About 90 to 95 percent of Indian marriages here and abroad are still arranged. Marriages are also arranged among newly arrived emigrants from Albania, Vietnam, China, Korea and Pakistan. The divorce rate among Indians here and abroad is estimated at below four percent-much lower than in Western cultures. "'I think we are much closer than American couples,' says Shikha. 'Here a lot of couples crave for personal and financial independence. In the Indian culture, we don't have this concept of declaring that I need my own space. It is automatically understood: being a couple means sharing everything.'" ......... Copyright 1994, Himalayan Academy, All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this news report may not be published for commercial purposes without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. (The publisher's request is that the material not be used in magazines or newspapers that are for sale without their permission. Redistribution electronically (for free), photocoping to give to classes or friends, all that is ok.) This copyright notice may NOT be removed, or the articles edited or changed without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Aug 18 17:26:10 1995 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:26:10 -0700 Subject: Brahman/Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020529.23782.13679360242927082310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> < the -min ending is indicated to be derogatory> My experience supports no such assertion. From daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 18 17:50:05 1995 From: daudali at uclink3.berkeley.edu (Daud R. Ali) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:50:05 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020536.23782.16867902361474727475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, V Jain wrote: > Hello, > I am not a historian or otherwise but it is a widely accepted > fact in India that the invasions are the real cause of poverty. > India was called a "golden bird" before all these invasions. > People were happy. Look at all the stories about India. None or almost > none seems to indicate people were unhappy or poor. And look at the > stories of post-independence. You need to emphasize or explain people > that there are still rich people in India. > I am in complete agreement that invasions have sapped India of its strength! The first and most devastatating of these, from which India has of course never recovered, was the Indo-Aryan invasion! It seems a bit much, to assume that India has been the 'victim' of invasions when its whole history has been constituted as a series of invasions. As for the "happiness" in Sanskrit literature, I think we need a serious reality check. DD Kosambi rightly pointed out long ago that sanskrit literature presents us first and foremost as a "class literature." Whether one agrees with the specific Marxist formulations that he develops, this basic insight cannot be ignored. We could easily look at British Romantic or Georgian poetry and conclude that all its references to English country gardens and idyllic nature reflected a society totally in harmony with itself. What a ridiculous conclusion it would be. In fact, one might argue that the seamless world of Sanskrit literature was in fact meant to suture the inequities that sustained the courtly environmnet from which it emerged. India of course has always had dominant classes. We must be careful in countering first world stereotypes of the thrid world (India is only a variant here of any number of other countries) with utopic (nationalist or rightwing) notions of Inida. Dominik's critique of the HT quote is right on the mark, not from a "westerner's" point of view, but from anti imperialist anti classist point of view. Are the Tatas and the Birlas, are exploitative labor practices and caste dominated agrarian relations -- all of which lead to fortunes, things that we should celebrate? Hardly. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Aug 18 10:43:12 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 11:43:12 +0100 Subject: Critique of India Message-ID: <161227020506.23782.19475647430085817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S. Cousins writes: >If you define Europe in terms of a supposed 'core', this is a bit circular >in the present context - effectively, the 'core' is the part that didn't >come under Muslim control in Ottoman times. Not quite. Spain was under Muslim rule for 500 years, and Sicily for at least a couple of hundred years, I think (I haven't got time to check the details). So parts of Europe were acutally "invaded". But there are important differences between the Muslim rule in Europe and in India. Both the Moors of Spain and the Ottoman Turks were relatively tolerant of their Christian citizens. In a time where tolerance were rare, the Muslims showed more tolerance and had a higher civilization than their Christian brethren, whom they, by the way, regarded as barbarians. When the Christians got control of Spain and decided to throw out the Jews, these went to Turkey, where they were very well received and were given a place in the sun by the Sultan. This should be remembered by people who think that Islam is inherently cruel and intolerant. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From srice at cruzio.com Fri Aug 18 19:00:31 1995 From: srice at cruzio.com (Stanley Rice) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 12:00:31 -0700 Subject: Libraries with strong Indological collections, list? Message-ID: <161227020538.23782.1594652478965133185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Folks, Does anyone know of a list of snailmail addresses for libraries with strong Indological holdings? Thanks, Stan Rice -- Stan Rice, Autospec Inc, srice at cruzio.com From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 18 19:04:49 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 12:04:49 -0700 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020541.23782.9217382853479012663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | | Incidentally, I was completely unaware that HT ever published any letter | from me. I don't think I wrote to them ... oh, wait a minute, I did | send a bit of email, which never got acknowledged, so I assumed it had | fallen into some big hole in the net. That must be it. I certainly | didn't intend my note for publication! Oh dear. Was it very strident? | \ END: Dominik Wujastyk Aum Thank you for your gentle and thoughtful reply, Dominik. Below is the letter you sent .. they published it in the February 94 issue with the notation that it was an email letter. I have read an account/review of your recent article on Indian history, and I am shocked that you could promote such nonsense. I have in the past enjoyed Hinduism Today, but this article and the accompanying editorial are not just ridiculous, but also play into the hands of fundamentalist revisionists who are dangerous. In India today there is a strong movement amongst politically-motivated right-wingers to find historical reasons to justify acts of communal brutality and discrimination. Your article plays right into the hands of these people. Dominik Wujastyk, Bangalore, India, dom at soochak.ncst.ernet.in From pp001460 at interramp.com Fri Aug 18 20:33:31 1995 From: pp001460 at interramp.com (pp001460 at interramp.com) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 13:33:31 -0700 Subject: Brahman or Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020531.23782.15713723226679450445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Nelson writes: >My South Indian BrAhmaNa friends and teachers, when speaking English, use >the word "Brahmin." I've never heard it used in a derogatory sense, has >anyone? The -min ending is handy when one is writing in English about >VedAnta, to avoid confusion with the term "Brahman" (ultimate Reality). > >Thanks to all who have responded on this question (I don't think it has >become a debate), which was prompted by a copy editor at a well-known >academic press who wanted to change my Brahmin-s to _brAhmin_: lower >case, italics, with a macron over the a. Hmmmmmm. I have also found this to be true (I work in Orissa). I am not a classical indologist or scholar of Sanskrit, so I can not join the conversation at that level. But I study living tradition and practice in Orissa, and have done much of my work in collaboration with an Oriya anthropologist who lives and teaches in Orissa. He uses the pronunication `Brahmin' to refer to himself and others of the set of (sub)castes; when he transliterates or writes articles in English I have seen the use of both forms, interchangably as far as I can tell. I have several of his publications with me to refer to. I have not known the `Brahmin' pronunciation to be used in a derogatory sense but that could vary with locality and language group, as for example the implications of the epithet `babu', in various social contexts. In my own work, I have vacillated between use of the two forms, and I have enjoyed this discussion regarding the various reasons scholars choose one form or another, and what they understand by each. Nancy C. Much From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Aug 18 20:09:21 1995 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 15:09:21 -0500 Subject: Prof. P. S. Jaini Message-ID: <161227020544.23782.13819233136718033125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Query: Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini's Address ***************************************** Does anyone have Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini's address? - email or postal. I think he is at Berkeley. Grategully yours, n. ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 23:47:47 1995 From: j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk (Julia Leslie) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 17:47:47 -0600 Subject: Brahman or Brahmin Message-ID: <161227020520.23782.1140199076384179611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:00:44 BST, Lance Nelson writes: > > My South Indian BrAhmaNa friends and teachers, when speaking English, use > the word "Brahmin." I've never heard it used in a derogatory sense, has > anyone? The -min ending is handy when one is writing in English about > VedAnta, to avoid confusion with the term "Brahman" (ultimate Reality). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with all three points: (1) I use "brahmin" as the English form, perhaps also due to my South Indian bias; (2) I have never come across a derogatory usage of this form (but I would welcome evidence on this); (3) I *force* my first-year students to use this spelling in order to make them consciously distinguish between the person and the ultimate "Brahman". (When they leave my care, they are welcome to make their own decisions ...) Should I rethink, I wonder? Julia Leslie From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 18 17:46:27 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 18:46:27 +0100 Subject: Critique of the West in Indic literature and society Message-ID: <161227020533.23782.500393916998453660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sadhunathan, > > I was uanble to find an editorial promoting child marriage. Can you > tell me the volume/issue?? I did find the publisher's remarks on > arranged marriage, that is possibly what you are referring to. Yes, I think that probably is what I was thinking of. The "from the publisher's desk" is what I think of as the editorial, and the date, Jan 94, is about right, I think. > FYI, I am a devotee of Sivaya Subramuniyswami, but don't claim to > represent either him or HT. Also it is my observation that Dominik's > antagonism seemed to arise after the publication of the Hindu Time > Line articles in HT. Is that correct? Perhaps it conflicted with > some of your research or beliefs, Dominick? I'm only guessing. > I saw your letter at that time attacking their research published in > their letters to the editor section. Actually, I went off HT earlier, and wasn't a subscriber when the timeline issue came up. I also read the big book by Sivaya Subramuniaswami on Saivism, when it first came out. Incidentally, I was completely unaware that HT ever published any letter from me. I don't think I wrote to them ... oh, wait a minute, I did send a bit of email, which never got acknowledged, so I assumed it had fallen into some big hole in the net. That must be it. I certainly didn't intend my note for publication! Oh dear. Was it very strident? Best wishes, Dominik From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Sat Aug 19 02:24:20 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 03:24:20 +0100 Subject: Paper by Sanderson Message-ID: <161227020549.23782.8972474926039579049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to all who responded to my query about publication of "Meaning of Tantric Ritual". It is not yet published. David Smith Lancaster d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Sat Aug 19 02:27:12 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 03:27:12 +0100 Subject: John Loud of Madison Message-ID: <161227020551.23782.13418351259180613273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am urgently trying to contact John Loud of Madison. He does not seem to have an e-mail address now. A telephone number would be fine. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Fri Aug 18 22:16:33 1995 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand Venkt Raman) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 10:16:33 +1200 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020546.23782.9020270839401537022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: >successful in creating the desired "modern lifestyle", were in most >cases created abroad. The most famous wrestler with this question is >perhaps Joseph Needham, who seems to have believed, unfortunately, that >absolutely everything was discovered first in China. I do agree with much of what Dominik has said. However, I would like to point out that the implicit derision of Prof Needham in his note is probably unwarranted, or undeserved to say the least. We must note that before Needham invested his total interest in Chinese Science, he was himself a Biologist and a scientist of good repute. Indeed, he has written much to establish his reputation as not only a good scientist, but also a good philosopher and historian of science who was well acquainted with the scientific method. All his claims are backed by empirical evidence some of which are preserved in the Needham Institute in the UK. - & From garzilli at shore.net Sat Aug 19 15:53:46 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 11:53:46 -0400 Subject: sorry Message-ID: <161227020554.23782.8344880581486001930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> for my previous msg that was meant to be sent ONLY to Ms. E. Hole. I dont think I (or anybody else) need a self-promotion (that can also be dangerous....!:)) For the Italian speakers, I mention one of our best sayings: Chi si loda si sbroda Sorry again eg From Sfauthor at aol.com Sat Aug 19 21:02:33 1995 From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 17:02:33 -0400 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020556.23782.7775702440946579030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the perception of India as a poor country is quite a recent one. As for the causes of its poverty, both relative and absolute, I don't believe India's post-colonial economic policies have been mentioned: five-year plans, emphasis on heavy industry, autarky, and so on. The soviet model. When was the last time you heard the countries that didn't follow the soviet model--Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, S. Korea, and now Thailand, Malaysia, et al--described as poor countries? Many of them were on a par with India in 1947. From YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU Sun Aug 20 04:06:18 1995 From: YD56 at MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU (John GROVES) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 00:06:18 -0400 Subject: Nietzsche and Rig Veda Message-ID: <161227020559.23782.9659884123564657796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greeting Indology list members. I am a philosopher teaching Nietzsche's _Daybreak_ this fall, and I'm wondering about a quotation from the Rig Veda that Nietzsche uses at the very beginning of his book. "There are so many days that have not yet broken." What is the context? What are some of the interpretations of the line? Where is it? I hope the list members don't mind being asked what may bea very stupid question from a non-Indologist, but I thought you people would give me the best and quickest answer. Randy Groves, Associate Professor of Humanities, Ferris State University, Big Rapids, MI 49307, E-mail: yd56 at music.ferris.edu From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sun Aug 20 09:01:02 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 10:01:02 +0100 Subject: sorry Message-ID: <161227020562.23782.8737445377941082797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica Garzilli wrote: >for my previous msg that was meant to be sent ONLY to Ms. E. Hole. >I dont think I (or anybody else) need a self-promotion (that can also be >dangerous....!:)) > >For the Italian speakers, I mention one of our best sayings: >Chi si loda si sbroda Don't blame yourself too hard! Personally I think it is nice to know a bit about what other Indology netters do. It might come in handy one day to know that somebody has written about this or that. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Sun Aug 20 15:40:19 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 11:40:19 -0400 Subject: Nietzsche and Rig Veda Message-ID: <161227020568.23782.5448247440692508586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Looking through my critical edition of Nietzsche (ed. Giorgio Colli und Mazzino Montinari: Fr. Nietzsche, Kritische Studienausgabe,vol. 3 Berlin ( DTV/de Gruyter) 1980, and vol. 14 p. (commentary), it appears that the motto "Es giebt so viele Morgenroethen, die noch nicht geleuchtet haben" Rigveda was a suggestion of N's friends Peter Gast of January/Febr. 1881 which he added to his handwritten copy of N's "Morgenroethe" and which N. liked so much that he changed the name of the volume from "the ploughhare" to "dawn"/daybreak; he added the quote on the title page. As for the exact Rgveda quotation -- that may take a little bit of time, as there are hundreds of references which allude to this myth: The dawn(s) (USAS = Eos, Aurora, Ostera) will reappear every morning as they have done since the primordial "first dawn" was released by INDRA,leader of the new powers that be, from its rocky cave (vala),- after its location at the end of the world, beyond the eastern ocean had been spied out by Indra's bitch, SARAMA, "the jumper (across the ocean)" who promptly reported the location of the cave, so that Indra could break open the Vala and "liberate" the dawns (= cows/riches) from their erstwhile owners, the PANI, who belong to the ancien regime of the earlier generation of gods. It is the hope of the Rgvedic poets that the reappearance of Usas will continue, especially at the time of winter solstice, and they ask Usas to return, or they frequently praise her beautiful reappearance comparing her to a beautiful young woman. Vedic poets also look forward to the future, to future generations by whom their words may still be heard -- as they indeed are, to this very day... in the strict oral transmission in India. For the myth you may compare, H.-P.Schmidt, Brhaspati und Indra, Wiesbaden 1967 which deals with all relevant passages from the Rgveda. For Usas see also Boris Oguibenine, Usas. Paris (c.1980). Examples are: the Usas hymns of Rgveda 4.51-52 or 7.75-81 -- see translation by Griffith (end of teh last century) or the more recent one by K.F.Geldner, Der Rig-Veda, (Harvard Oriental Series vol. 33-36) Cambridge MA 1951. - There is no recent complete and up to date Engl. translation.However, there is a partial French one by Louis Renou, Etudes vediques et panineennes.(according to subjects, such as Indra, Usas hymns -- not with me, at home, right now) (published in the sixties, reprinted recently, 18 vol.s) If I will find the exact quotation -- it sound a bit untypical- I will let you know. M.W. ============================================================================= durjanasya ca sarpasya varam sarpo na durjanah | sarpo dazati kaalena durjanas tu pade-pade || ============================================================================= Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit Wales Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Chair, Committee on South Asian Studies 53 Church Street Harvard University Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones: - 1- 617 - 495 3295 (messages) Electronic Journal of 496 8570 Vedic Studies fax: 4968571 EJVS-list at arcadiax1.arcadia. email: witzel at husc3.harvard.edu polimi.it (or on WWW: http:// arcadiax1.arcadia.polimi.it:80/ ~ejvslist/ ============================================================================= On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, John GROVES wrote: > Greeting Indology list members. I am a philosopher teaching Nietzsche's > _Daybreak_ this fall, and I'm wondering about a quotation from the Rig > Veda that Nietzsche uses at the very beginning of his book. "There are > so many days that have not yet broken." What is the context? What are > some of the interpretations of the line? Where is it? I hope the list > members don't mind being asked what may bea very stupid question from a > non-Indologist, but I thought you people would give me the best and > quickest answer. Randy Groves, Associate Professor of Humanities, Ferris > State University, Big Rapids, MI 49307, E-mail: yd56 at music.ferris.edu > > From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mon Aug 21 00:15:19 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 00:15:19 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020565.23782.9380789671797772653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sfauthor at aol.com wrote: >I think the perception of India as a poor country is quite a recent one. As >for the causes of its poverty, both relative and absolute, I don't believe >India's post-colonial economic policies have been mentioned: five-year plans, >emphasis on heavy industry, autarky, and so on. The soviet model. > >When was the last time you heard the countries that didn't follow the soviet >model--Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, S. Korea, and now Thailand, >Malaysia, et al--described as poor countries? Many of them were on a par with >India in 1947. Many countries who would, at face value, not be described as "following the Soviet model", would still be considered as poor, which makes "following the Soviet model" quite inconclusive (er, anaikaantika, as some people would have it). And, alas, I have heard people describing Thailand as poor, in terms of social standards etc. (it is hardly conceivable that a business such as "mail-order-brides" would thrive in a non-poor country). What you seem to suggest is that the perception of India as being poor is more or less caused by its adoption of a Soviet model. In other words: First India adopted a Soviet model, then there came poverty, and then this poverty was (correctly) perceived in other parts of the world. This, again, suggests an absolute breaking point, an economical demarcation line, a "start from zero", in 1947. Although this is way off my field, I would severely doubt this, based on "Hausverstand" (common sense). After all, factors such as infrastructure (e.g. the rail system, harbours, pre-existing industry sectors) would "somehow" influence whatever strategy is taken, no? In still other words: Specification, please. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 21 06:47:26 1995 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 06:47:26 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020573.23782.186171468220285358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> |It is quite probably a fact that India experienced poverty long before |1947. As Dominik pointed out a few days ago, Indic literature abounds in |poor brahmans, beggars, prostitutes etc. Another point worth considering is that the existence of beggars does not necessarily connotate poverty, and reveals a difference between Eastern and Western attitudes. In the West, the mentally ill, and various disabled persons unable to care for themselves are often put away in homes or institutions. In India, they have the honorable profession of begging. They get more fresh air and sunshine. The populace is taught the benefit of giving alms. In fact, begging and the care of beggars are both highly spiritual acts when taken as part of sanyasa ashrama, the fulfillment of old age. The whole point of the editorial that triggered some of this interesting thread is that poverty is in the eyes of the beholder. The many wandering mendicants and sadhus of Indian are materially poor by choice, but spiritually rich. The same might be said of devadasis (often miscalled prostitutes), poor brahmans (who may actually be dedicated servants of God who choose to live by the generosity of others), etc. By the way, I'm not saying India does not have, or has not long had proverty. India has tremendous poverty. It also has tremendous wealth, and beggars are not necessarily snynonmous with poverty. regards, sadhunathan From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Aug 21 07:24:31 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 08:24:31 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020571.23782.11325141500276073265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >What you seem to suggest is that the perception of India as being poor is >more or less caused by its adoption of a Soviet model. In other words: First >India adopted a Soviet model, then there came poverty, and then this poverty >was (correctly) perceived in other parts of the world. This, again, suggests >an absolute breaking point, an economical demarcation line, a "start from >zero", in 1947. Although this is way off my field, I would severely doubt >this, based on "Hausverstand" (common sense). It is quite probably a fact that India experienced poverty long before 1947. As Dominik pointed out a few days ago, Indic literature abounds in poor brahmans, beggars, prostitutes etc. We should also remember the extensive "social programs" advocated in the Arthashastra, where it is clear that the king had the responsibility for all sorts of poor people like widows, orphans etc., not to mention the perspective that the king's alleviation of poverty was an insurance against revolt. But at the same time, it is clear that the "Soviet model" adopted by India in 1947 did not do much good for the country. This is recognized by leading Indic economists, and the policies of today are designed to get away from the old model. But we should not forget one of the crucial problems: India is slightly smaller than the United States in terms of area, but has to nourish three times as many people. Half the population of India are still analphabets, and the social system leads to a great deal of internal competition that dissipates economic energy. Such factors are also relevant. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Mon Aug 21 20:54:46 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 10:54:46 -1000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020579.23782.11266201424797899016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: [...] > time, it is clear that the "Soviet model" adopted by India in 1947 did not > do much good for the country. Actually, I think that's far from clear... > This is recognized by leading Indic > economists, and the policies of today are designed to get away from the old > model. Like different stages in the life of a person, what may have been appropriate forty years ago may no longer be appropriate now... A healthy, well-educated young person (analogous to India's economy today) can compete on level terms with anyone. But when it was a baby (or rather, the exhausted victim of a vampire), maybe it needed protection -- especially from vampires. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Tue Aug 22 02:48:35 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 02:48:35 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020576.23782.9174867972848830489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sadhunathan Nadesan wrote: >Another point worth considering is that the existence of beggars >does not necessarily connotate poverty, and reveals a difference >between Eastern and Western attitudes. In the West, the mentally >ill, and various disabled persons unable to care for themselves are >often put away in homes or institutions. In India, they have the >honorable profession of begging. They get more fresh air and sunshine. >The populace is taught the benefit of giving alms. In fact, begging >and the care of beggars are both highly spiritual acts when taken >as part of sanyasa ashrama, the fulfillment of old age. The whole >point of the editorial that triggered some of this interesting thread >is that poverty is in the eyes of the beholder. The many wandering >mendicants and sadhus of Indian are materially poor by choice, but >spiritually rich. The same might be said of devadasis (often >miscalled prostitutes), poor brahmans (who may actually be dedicated >servants of God who choose to live by the generosity of others), etc. To me, this is a highly problematic viewpoint. First of all, there is a huge difference between conscious, deliberate poverty (i.e. refrain from having money or other worldly possessions, because, for some reason or another, you think it is a bad idea), and passive, inflicted poverty (i.e. being deprived of basic needs, and definitely not being satisfied with that situation or deriving any spiritual benefit from it). The economical, ideological, political etc. problems under consideration apply to the latter (viz. non-deliberate) poverty. Let mendicants and sadhus be spiritually rich, but their (apparent) material poverty is not a political question, for after all, it was their own choice. To state that the mentally ill can have the honorable profession of begging (unless I miss out on a huge portion of irony in this statement) amounts to blurring precisely those boundaries of poverty I tried to outline above. In both (stereotypically displayed) societies, the "West" and "India", the mentally ill are outcasts, and somebody else decides on their lives. In one case, they are locked up in clinics, in the other, they are locked up in the paradigm of being beggars. Getting sunshine and fresh air is no doubt a good thing (unless we consider Ozon and other disadvantages of sunshine). The social stigma, nevertheless, remains the same (or the social ignorance & arrogance, for that matter). And how does the "poverty" as defined through the "eyes of the beholder" apply to the mentally ill in the first place? Are you saying that, because some mentally ill people might not be aware of being poor, they are not? That reminds me of the famous fallacy of concluding that a certain object does not exist, because you don't see it (fallacious, because you might be asleep, passed out, behind the seven mountains or otherwise "handicapped"). I suggest that the term "poverty" should be made more specific: For instance, as a term to describe an involuntary deprivation of basic needs & basic human rights (the one entailing the other). A subject-centered account of poverty (i.e. "the eyes of the beholder") obliterates discussions rather than stimulating them. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Tue Aug 22 14:41:00 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 07:41:00 -0700 Subject: L.T. O'Neil Address Message-ID: <161227020584.23782.9440073486421818068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the address, etc., of L. Thomas O'Neil, author of _Maya in Sankara: Measuring the Immeasurable_ (South Asia Books, 1980)? Help appreciated. Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 22 14:49:45 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 07:49:45 -0700 Subject: Septemeber HT available free Message-ID: <161227020588.23782.515769418208007042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskarams! The September issue of Hinduism Today is "on line", that is, available free from the HT email server, and the HT web page. For those with Internet access, the url is: http://www.HinduismToday.kauai.hi.us/ashram/htoday.html For those who prefer to receive the paper by email, you may request articles by file name. Note that it is suggested you include your internet mail address in the request message. Also, be sure to include the issue name, in the format issue/article And, be sure to capitalize as shown. PLEASE do not reply to this message. Replies are automatically discarded. The mail server address, where requests should be sent, is: pslvax!hinduism_today at ucsd.edu Sample request message: begin mail (put your mail address here, such as prakash at castcrew.com) send aug_95/My_Turn send aug_95/Editorial end To get more information about the HT email server, write to the HT postmaster at: pslvax!sadhu at ucsd.edu or send this message to the HT server: begin mail (your email address here) help index end list of articles in the table of contents ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HINDUISM TODAY, September, 1995 -- volume 17, number 9 * Education in India--Whence and Whither? * Home, Sweet Europe: Asians flooding Europe * Barsana Dham Blooms in Texas, Swami Prakashanand Saraswati's International Society of Divine Love Cultivates a Hindu Haven in the Lone Star State * India's Supreme Court to RK Mission: 'You're Hindus' * Publisher's Desk, Swaminarayan: Dharma's Pride and Joy * Editorial, The RK Mission: Judging the Judgment * Letters to the Editor: In box for Pat Robertson * My Turn: Open letter to Pat Robertson * Hindu Deity Of Dharma: Remover of obstacles and bountiful source of things both earthly and divine. * Ganesha: Unifying force among Hindus * Scriptual Quotes * Home or Career? Part II * News in Brief: The thriving Hindus * Healing: Reducing Computer Eye Strain * High School Daze in Rajput, India * Global Dharma: Violence in Russia * Jewelry of the Indus * All Night Festival: For a Goddess who saved a Kingdom ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- list of file names for article requests: All_Night_Festival Jewelry_of_the_Indus Barsana_Dham_in_Texas Letters_to_the_Editor Editorial My_Turn Education_in_India News_in_Brief Ganesha RK_Mission_Court_Decision Global_Dharma Scriptural_Quotes Healing Table_of_Contents High_School_in_Rajput Publishers_Desk Hindu_Diety_of_Dharma Home_Sweet_Europe Home_or_Career_Part_II From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Aug 22 16:21:47 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 09:21:47 -0700 Subject: Poverty in Sanskrit literature Message-ID: <161227020603.23782.7948863177106054772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian > literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as > metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. Perhaps other > INDOLOGY members might know of passages which do or don't exemplify > this. It seems to me that the daily contact which most writers in > India had with poverty probably prevented them developing a romanticized > attitude towards it. > > Dominik > An interesting body of material on the portrayal of poverty in Sanskrit are the sections in various Subhaa.sita anthologies with titles like daaridrya, daridra-nindaa, aapat, diina, etc. See, for example, 'Saarngadharapaddhati, 401-412; Suuktimuktaavalii 127; Subhaa.sitaavalii 3157-3206; Subhaa.sitaratnako'sa 39; Saduktkarnaam.rta 2226-2250; and Subhaa.sitaratnabhaa.n.daagaara pp.65-68. They do seem to agree that poverty is not very romantic or healthful. There is also an interesting interchange between Kosambi and Ingalls in their edition/translation, respectively, of Subhaa.sitaratnako'sa on the poverty issue. -R. Salomon From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Aug 22 08:24:20 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 09:24:20 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020582.23782.14941368865781185206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L. M. Fosse wrote: > time, it is clear that the "Soviet model" adopted by India in 1947 did not >> do much good for the country. Narayan S. Raja wrote: >Actually, I think that's far >from clear... .... >Like different stages in the >life of a person, what may have >been appropriate forty years ago >may no longer be appropriate now... I realize that I am a little out of my depth here, since I am not an economist. But I think it is relevant to point to a couple of other countries that for various reasons had a "bad" start: Japan (flattened after several years of intensive warfare) and Korea (one of the worlds poorest countries some 40 years ago). We could undoubtedly mention others as well. These economies have done extremely well, as we all know. We should also look at the countries that adopted the Soviet model (to more or less extreme degrees). None of them have done particularly well (some have turned into outright nightmares) and are striving to reform their economies now, just like India. I am not competent to engage in a detailed discussion of what went wrong in India or the other Soviet model countries - I'll have to leave that to the economists - but the overall picture seems very clear. But by all means: There are capitalist economies that are in a hopeless mess: Just look at a number of Latin American countries. And some Soviet model countries did relatively better than other Soviet model countries, so we must assume that there are more parameters at play than the mere choice of economic model. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 22 95 Aug EDT 13:38:00 Date: 22 Aug 95 13:38:00 EDT From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Sikh Studies Listserver? Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello members of the list, Do any of you know if there is a similar forum to this on Sikh Studies? And if so what is its address? Peter Friedlander From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 22 16:57:22 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 09:57:22 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020608.23782.3169970917192041227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | Sadhunathan ever been to India? That's a genuine question. yes, i have. the first time i saw calcutta, the extent of the poverty there was a major shock. it is an experience i will never forget. i had not imagined such suffering could exist on our fair earth. i dont mean to romanticize all of it. on the other hand, i have also seen smiling beggars on the temple steps in rishikesh or palani hills with the light of love in their eye. that such people exist can be mentioned, can it not? | | Beggars are poor because they don't have any money. To argue otherwise | is to use terms metaphorically. the point of the editorial post was: one can have money and still be poor with respect to other things, such as, compassion; one can be without money and still wealthy with dignity, love, joi de vivre and other non monetary values. i never said beggars are not financially poor. nor did i claim they are all spiritually rich. i only point out that some are, and that this is a fact worthy of consideration. oh, but why am i even writing this?? i have no to wish to debate these points, and yet, that is what i find myself doing. so sorry. | It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian | literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as | metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. i humbly bow to your observations, which are correct. om shanti, sadhu From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 22 17:56:04 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 10:56:04 -0700 Subject: Poverty in Sanskrit literature Message-ID: <161227020611.23782.2616299552582409867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | Subhaa.sitaratnabhaa.n.daagaara pp.65-68. They do seem to agree that | poverty is not very romantic or healthful. | hey! i never said poverty is romantic or healthful. From mbose at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Aug 22 18:14:15 1995 From: mbose at unixg.ubc.ca (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 11:14:15 -0700 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020614.23782.2202168408768228151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms. Garzilli, I am very interested in your work. How can I have access to your writings? I am teaching in the Religious Studies Department at University of British Columbia where I offer courses on Hindu Tradition and Women and Religion in South Asian context. My basic discipline is in Smrti and Mimamsa which I studied in Calcutta University. My graduate work at Oxford was focussed on Dance and Drama in Sanskritic tradition which led to my interest in working on women's issues from classical to the present day. I am putting together a collection of articles. With best wishes, Sincerly, Mandakranta Bose Religious Studies University of British Columbia Phone: (604)-822-6978, Fax:(604)-822-0650, e-mail:mbose at unixg.ubc.ca On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, Enrica Garzilli wrote: > Dear Ms. Hole, > I am not an anthropologist, but I published on > Hindu women 3 articles (one in Italian, two in English). > Subject: Striidharma (Law regarding women), Striisvabhaava (the inherent > nature of women), and Sahagamana (or Satii). The last > one is rather long (90 pp. ca.) and is forthcoming in the Indo-Iranian > Journal, and in Women in Religion (ed. A. Sharma, E. J. Brill). > I am writing on Striidhana (property of women). > > Of course, they resort to written material and historical as well > geographical data. They of course also mentions studies on the subjects > (also on Folklore). I dont know whether you could be interested. > Please let me know. > > My best > > Dott. Enrica Garzilli > Harvard University > ----------------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, ELIZABETH HOLE wrote: > > > Does anyone know the ?-mail or postal addresses to; > > Surinder M. Bhardwaj, the former Chairman in the Department of Geography at > > Kent State University? > > > > and / or to; > > Carolyn V. Prorok > > > > I would also appreciate to get in contact with anthropologists that > > currenly or previously have done research on Hindu women in the UK. Also, > > any titles of new publications or articles on this subject would be > > gratefully recieved. Please, as not to upset others on the list, answer > > direct to my ?-mail address. > > Thank you! > > > > Hopeful regards > > > > Elizabeth Hole (svagah at sb.su.se) > > > > > > > > > > From skjain at server.uwindsor.ca Tue Aug 22 15:52:58 1995 From: skjain at server.uwindsor.ca (S Jain) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 11:52:58 -0400 Subject: BRAHMAN AND BRAHMIN Message-ID: <161227020597.23782.8123921782540889745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, ALLEN W THRASHER wrote: > Re: Brahmins and Brahmans. > >[text deleted]... ..... A citation that may indicate the source of > the "i" is Marco Polo, who has as a plural Abraiaman or > Abraiamin, "which seems to represent an incorrect Arabic plural > (e.g. Abrahamin) picked up from Arabic sailors; the correct > Arabic plural is Barahima. ........ > > Allen Thrasher > An interesting query, perhaps far-fetched, comes to mind. Is it possible that Brahmin(s) is/are related to Abraham, the Old Testament patriarch, founder of the Hebrew people and referred to in the Koran? and does rahim in Barahima (Arabic plural of Abrahamin, i.e. Brahmin) has any relationship to the Islamic RahIm? ----------------------------------------------- From raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu Tue Aug 22 22:14:30 1995 From: raja at galileo.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 12:14:30 -1000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020631.23782.15250177854541483761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, with the excuse that this discussion may provide a useful data point for scholarly Indologists (regarding current opinions among Indians), I will take the liberty of contributing one more message to this thread... On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Narayan Sriranga Raja said > > > > A healthy, well-educated young > > person (analogous to India's > > economy today) can compete on > > level terms with anyone. > > Even a cursory reading of contemporary literature on the Indian economy > will show that it very far from being "a healthy well-educated young > person." Actually, I have been monitoring the Indian economy itself (primary data) with keen interest, ever since I was a teenager (for over ten years now). This is due to personal interest, as well as the fact that my father (and myself) are long-term investors in the (Indian) stock market. One basic fact that jumps out at you is that, in fact, most Indians who follow business/finance are highly optimistic and confident about the economy. Their attitude is "cut us loose and we can beat anyone." Have you seen those T-shirts that say "Bombay -- the Bigger Apple"? Of course, New York is not as significant a target as it used to be, but note the attitude... So, I would say that "A healthy, well-educated young person" is, in fact, a good analogy for the Indian economy. We (Indians involved in business/finance) feel that way about our capabilities. And unlike earlier generations, with their gaseous "moral superiirity," we don't say this out of ignorance about the rest of the world. Like with all "young persons," the most noticeable fact to an outsider may be pimples. That's also natural. Based on my assessment of the Indian economy (in turn, based on my background as an engineer), I think that attitude ("cut us loose and we can beat anyone") is not too unrealistic. Of course, this is not because of any inherent "superiority," but because we are in a particular stage of development where wages are still low, but confidence, enterpreneurship, and professional/technological skills are abundant. Also, note that in India, "cut us loose" refers to unchaining the DOMESTIC industry. No-one is screaming to let in Coke and hamburger "technology," though that will also happen, and is nothing to worry about. > The Indian economy has huge hurdles to overcome before it can > even begin to approach the performance of the Pacific Rim economies. Assuming you mean Japan/S.Korea/Singapore, etc., rather than Vanuatu/Papua/Kiribati (which are also Pacific Rim economies), the comparison is not particularly useful, because unlike those small countries, India cannot hope to become rich thru exports. Exporting is beneficial in many ways, and should be eagerly pursued, but ultimately, the emphasis has to be on the domestic market. Even a small country like Japan is now facing threats and accusations about Western economic crises allegedly caused by its exports. If India were to follow the same path, it would be at the cost of shutting down the rest of the world economy, which is not going to happen. So that's out. Anyway, all this talk about "development" may be wishful thinking. As an engineer, I know it would be difficult to develop India and China to Western levels using current technology. It would wipe out the world's natural resources and destroy the environment. The only hope is for radical changes in technology, together with loving tenderness for the environment. > And the jibe about imperialism-qua-vampire precisely > begs the question that several of us have been trying > to discuss rationally. No offence was intended. I think Indians have only ourselves to blame for what happened. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Tue Aug 22 19:59:56 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 12:59:56 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020617.23782.1728040634979097605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik writes: * It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian * literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as * metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. Here is a passage from the Mahabharata that praises poverty. I do not agree with Sadhunathan's statements, but poverty and renunciation are often claimed to be virtues in epic and Puranic literature. The passage is marked as XII.176 in P.C. Ray's translation of the vulgate. Mani --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yudhisthira said: Grandsire, how do happiness and misery come to those who are rich, as well as those who are poor, but who live by observing different practices and rites? [The commentator explains the object of Yudhisthira's question: in the previous section, it has been taught that one may seek moksha (salvation) even while young. Yudhisthira is asking if wealth (which is necessary for the performance of traditional sacrifices) is needed to seek moksha. If wealth is deemed necessary, the poor would then not be able to follow this path. Hence the enquiry about the way in which joy and sorrow come to the wealthy and to the poor.] Bhishma replied: In this connection, we can cite the old story told by CampAka who had attained peace and emanciption for himself. In former times, a certain brahmin, who led an (apparently) pitiful because of a bad wife, lack of clothing, and hunger, lived in the observance of the vow of renunciation and told me these verses: >From the day of his birth, a person born on this earth undergoes various types of joys and sorrows. If he could ascribe either of them to the hand of Destiny, he would not then feel glad when happiness came or miserable when sorrow overtook him. Although your mind is without desire, you carry a heavy burden. You aren't seeking what is good for you, (your salvation). Are you not successful in controlling your mind? If you go about your life, having renounced your home and desirable possessions, you will taste real happiness. A person divested of everything sleeps and awakes only in happiness. Complete poverty, in this world, is happiness. It is a good regimen, it is the source of blessings, it is freedom from danger. This noble path is not attainable (by those who cherish desire) but is attainable (by those who are free from desire). As I look at every part of the three worlds, I cannot see anyone who is equal to a poor man of pure conduct and without attachment (to worldly things). I weighted poverty and sovereignty in a balance; poverty weighed heavier than sovereignty and seemed to possess greater merits. Between poverty and sovereignty, this is this great distinction: the sovereign, a man of great wealth, is always agitated by anxiety and seems to be within the very jaws of death. The poor man, however, who because of his divestment of wealth has freed himself from (unwanted) hopes and has therefore emancipated himself, cannot be bettered by fire, nor enemy, nor death, nor robbers. [The key is that he is satisfied in his soul, and cannot be harmed by things of this world.] The very gods applaud such a man, who wanders about according to his will, who lies down on the bare ground with his arm for a pillow, and who is possessed of inner peace. Affected by rage and selfish desire, the man of affluence is stained by a wicked heart. He casts oblique glances and makes dry speeches. He becomes sinful, and his face is always darkened with frowns. Biting his lips, excited with wrath, he utters harsh and cruel words. If such a man desires to even make a gift of the whole world, who is there that would like to even look at him? Constant companionship with Prosperity stupefies a person of weak judgment. It drives off his judgment like the wind drives off the clouds of autumn. Companionship with Prosperity induces him to think, `I am damn good-looking! I'm really rich! `I am high-born! I'll always be successful in whatevver I do! I'm not an ordinary human being!' Because of these three reasons, his heart becomes intoxicated. Deeply attached to worldly possessions, he wastes the wealth hoarded by his ancestors. Reduced to want, he then thinks that the appropriation of others' wealth is blameless. At this stage, when he transgresses all barriers and begins to take from others from every side, the government obstruct and afflict him like hunters afflict a deer that is spied in the woodswith sharp arrows. Such a man is then overwhelmed with suffering of a similar kind, that come from weapons and fire. Therefore, disregarding all selfish worldly desires as well as all fleeting unrealities, one should, aided by one's reason, apply the proper medicine to cure these afflictions. Without Renunciation, one can never attain happiness. Without Renunciation, one can never obtain what is for one's highest good. Without Renunciation, one can never sleep at ease. Therefore, renouncing all, make happiness your own! [This is very much like Bhagavad-gita 18.66; the significant difference is that Sri Krishna adds the positive statement that He will save us Himself.] All this, what ChampAka sang, was told to me long ago at Hastinapura, by a learned brahmin. For this reason, I regard Renunciation to be the foremost of things. ------------------------------- From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 22 15:29:41 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 16:29:41 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020591.23782.17445671948913686878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sadhunathan says of beggars that > In India, they have the > honorable profession of begging. They get more fresh air and sunshine. > The populace is taught the benefit of giving alms. In fact, begging > and the care of beggars are both highly spiritual acts when taken > as part of sanyasa ashrama, the fulfillment of old age. I can't believe I'm reading this! "Fresh air and sunshine"! Has Sadhunathan ever been to India? That's a genuine question. Beggars are poor because they don't have any money. To argue otherwise is to use terms metaphorically. Metaphor is important and useful, but let's not get carried away to the point at which our social consciences are lulled to comfortable sleep while the poverty, pain, degradation, disease, and death which our fellow humans experience is metaphorized into spiritual riches. It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. Perhaps other INDOLOGY members might know of passages which do or don't exemplify this. It seems to me that the daily contact which most writers in India had with poverty probably prevented them developing a romanticized attitude towards it. Dominik From garzilli at shore.net Tue Aug 22 20:34:14 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 16:34:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020626.23782.11883841853883864160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Bose, Thank you very much for such unsexpected interest in my work! For you and for the other persons who have asked me for the bibliography: "Lo StrIdharma nei dharmazAstra", in Annali della Facolta' di Lettere e Filosofia dell'Universita' degli Studi di Perugia, Volume XXV, nuova serie XI, 1987/1988, 1, Studi Classici. "The StrIdharma in the DharmazAstra: the Difference Between the StrIdharma and Svadharma and the StrIsvabhAva", in Annali della facolta' di Lettere e Filosofia dell'Universita' degli Studi di Perugia, Volume XXVIII, 1990/1991, 1, Studi Classici. "Riflessione sulla donna Indiana. Il nuovo ruolo delle donne tra tradizione nazionale e modelli di emancipazione occidentali", in Sinistra Europea, Roma, Maggio-Agosto 1989. "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems", forthcoming in 2 parts in the Indo-Iranian Journal (soon) and in Women in Religion, ed. A. Sharma, E.J. Brill, 1995 (forthcoming) First Greek etc. is forthcoming. I have already corrected the proof though. Either you are patient enough to wait, or I will send it to you (snail, the slowest mail!) If also the other papers are not accessible, I will send them (sigh!) to you. Thank you again Enrica Garzilli ------------------------------------ On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Mandakranta Bose wrote: > Dear Ms. Garzilli, > I am very interested in your work. How can I have access to your > writings? I am teaching in the Religious Studies Department at University > of British Columbia where I offer courses on Hindu Tradition and Women > and Religion in South Asian context. > My basic discipline is in Smrti and Mimamsa which I studied in > Calcutta University. My graduate work at Oxford was focussed on Dance and > Drama in Sanskritic tradition which led to my interest in working > on women's issues from classical to the present day. I am putting > together a collection of articles. > > With best wishes, > > Sincerly, > > Mandakranta Bose > Religious Studies > University of British Columbia > Phone: (604)-822-6978, Fax:(604)-822-0650, e-mail:mbose at unixg.ubc.ca > On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, Enrica Garzilli wrote: > > > Dear Ms. Hole, > > I am not an anthropologist, but I published on > > Hindu women 3 articles (one in Italian, two in English). > > Subject: Striidharma (Law regarding women), Striisvabhaava (the inherent > > nature of women), and Sahagamana (or Satii). The last > > one is rather long (90 pp. ca.) and is forthcoming in the Indo-Iranian > > Journal, and in Women in Religion (ed. A. Sharma, E. J. Brill). > > I am writing on Striidhana (property of women). > > > > Of course, they resort to written material and historical as well > > geographical data. They of course also mentions studies on the subjects > > (also on Folklore). I dont know whether you could be interested. > > Please let me know. > > > > My best > > > > Dott. Enrica Garzilli > > Harvard University > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, ELIZABETH HOLE wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know the ?-mail or postal addresses to; > > > Surinder M. Bhardwaj, the former Chairman in the Department of Geography at > > > Kent State University? > > > > > > and / or to; > > > Carolyn V. Prorok > > > > > > I would also appreciate to get in contact with anthropologists that > > > currenly or previously have done research on Hindu women in the UK. Also, > > > any titles of new publications or articles on this subject would be > > > gratefully recieved. Please, as not to upset others on the list, answer > > > direct to my ?-mail address. > > > Thank you! > > > > > > Hopeful regards > > > > > > Elizabeth Hole (svagah at sb.su.se) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Tue Aug 22 15:38:42 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 16:38:42 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020594.23782.13487159859572251125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Sriranga Raja said > > A healthy, well-educated young > person (analogous to India's > economy today) can compete on > level terms with anyone. Even a cursory reading of contemporary literature on the Indian economy will show that it very far from being "a healthy well-educated young person." The Indian economy has huge hurdles to overcome before it can even begin to approach the performance of the Pacific Rim economies. The reasons and examples are too many to go into here, and inappropriate for the INDOLOGY forum in any case. And the jibe about imperialism-qua-vampire precisely begs the question that several of us have been trying to discuss rationally. Dominik From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Tue Aug 22 16:10:26 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 17:10:26 +0100 Subject: Fax number for American Institute of Indian Studies, Madras? Message-ID: <161227020599.23782.3701785694098831034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can someone please tell me the fax no for the American Institute of Indian Studies, Madras? Many thanks David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk Tue Aug 22 17:02:49 1995 From: somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk (Somdev Vasudeva) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: Poverty in Sanskrit literature Message-ID: <161227020605.23782.8721142805764983297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The satires of K.semendra, although he may well have been somewhat of a bigot, are a particularily useful antidote to romantic notions of poverty. His Kalaavilaasa is a "fine" portrayal human degradation (I would suggest reading the text rather more carefully than the tranlations of Richard Schmidt and Pranee Lapanich do, a lot of the humour depends on dvyaa"sraya- or occasionally tryaa"sraya"sle.sa). Somdev Vasudeva From dplukker at inter.NL.net Tue Aug 22 20:29:20 1995 From: dplukker at inter.NL.net (dplukker at inter.NL.net) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 22:29:20 +0200 Subject: Sikh Studies Listserver? Message-ID: <161227020623.23782.5145202578963846115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Do any of you know if there is a similar forum to this on Sikh Studies? >And if so what is its address? > >Peter Friedlander > > > Contact khalsa-request at maboli.com for the Khalsa Net Mailing List (I have no personal experience with this list). Further information on Sikhism: http://www.io.org/~sandeep/sikhism.htm http://khanda.unl.edu/~sikhism Newsgroup: soc.religion.sikhism Regards, Dick Plukker India Institute, Amsterdam From garzilli at shore.net Wed Aug 23 03:36:22 1995 From: garzilli at shore.net (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 23:36:22 -0400 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020634.23782.8542639012654431837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, purushottama bilimoria wrote: > > I think there is an "unsexpected" gender confusion in the addresee's > addressing of the addresser. Dr Bose is a woman. But we are still victims > of an old tradition of patriachy even though we write and edit on > Strii-vi.saya. > > A friend of mine (a computer specialist) has already thought of adding two special characters (masculine and feminine) to the ASCII table and to write one of the two, or perhaps both in some case, before any email address eg From stampe at hawaii.edu Wed Aug 23 11:25:31 1995 From: stampe at hawaii.edu (David Stampe) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 01:25:31 -1000 Subject: New Mailing List: Natural Language Processing in Asia Message-ID: <161227020639.23782.10765073118244021285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded by David Stampe : ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 00:53:20 -1000 Errors-To: sealang-l-request at nectec.or.th Reply-To: sealang-l at nectec.or.th Originator: sealang-l at nectec.or.th Sender: sealang-l at nectec.or.th From: Gwyn Williams To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: New Mailing List: Natural Language Processing in Asia Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mime-Version: 1.0 NATURAL LANGUAGE PROCESSING IN ASIA - MAILING LIST (NLPASIA-L) The purpose of NLPASIA-L is to provide an international scholarly forum and central archive to facilitate and co-ordinate the documentation, research, discussion, and dissemination of information on the computational processing of languages in Asia. Main topics include: 1. Natural language processing 2. Computational linguistics 3. Large scale corpora 4. Speech processing 5. Related fields The scope of discussion includes all aspects of computational processing in and related to the languages of Asia including: linguistic theories; linguistic data; databases; tools for language corpora and dictionaries; systems for language and text processing and generation; algorithms; natural language interfaces; multi-lingual systems; spelling checkers; parsing; lexical and semantic analysis; pragmatics; discourse; knowledge representation; machine translation; optical character recognition; font design; speech recognition; speech synthesis; etc. HOW TO SUBSCRIBE TO NLPASIA-L ----------------------------- Mail to: majordomo at nectec.or.th Leave the "Subject:" line blank. In the body of the message, type EITHER: subscribe NLPASIA-L OR subscribe NLPASIA-L (The second option above allows you to subscribe an account which is different from the one you are posting the subscription) Inquiries to: From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Tue Aug 22 20:06:39 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 06:06:39 +1000 Subject: Prof. P. S. Jaini Message-ID: <161227020620.23782.16445204489151696005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just happened to be seapking with Prof Jaini three minutes ago in this very office. If my pratyaks.sa is veridical then this is his correct address: Dept of South & South-east Asia 1203 Dwinelle Hall #2540 UC-Berkeley CA 94720 Faxa (510) 642-3582 Cheers Purushottam On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Ganesan wrote: > > > Query: Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini's Address > ***************************************** > > Does anyone have Prof. Padmanabh S. Jaini's address? > - email or postal. I think he is at Berkeley. > > Grategully yours, > n. ganesan > nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov > > From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Tue Aug 22 22:05:35 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 08:05:35 +1000 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020628.23782.2454938525376058039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think there is an "unsexpected" gender confusion in the addresee's addressing of the addresser. Dr Bose is a woman. But we are still victims of an old tradition of patriachy even though we write and edit on Strii-vi.saya. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 23 08:46:36 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 09:46:36 +0100 Subject: Looking for researchers Message-ID: <161227020637.23782.4603306140228577839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I think there is an "unsexpected" gender confusion in the addresee's >addressing of the addresser. Dr Bose is a woman. But we are still victims >of an old tradition of patriachy even though we write and edit on >Strii-vi.saya. Would it be an idea if Dr. Bose and other unsuspecting lady victims of linguistic "gender-bending" spelled their names with long a's, e.g. mandakraantaa? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Wed Aug 23 16:55:28 1995 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 09:55:28 -0700 Subject: Vacation Message-ID: <161227020651.23782.17866205798625662150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In case anyone is trying to reach me, please note that I will be away on vacation and incommunicado from August 25 to about September 20. Richard Salomon University of Washington From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Wed Aug 23 20:15:38 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 13:15:38 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020656.23782.13570294505934567058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As an aside, since when has it become standard to use "Z" for the first "sha" (I forget its technical name) in transliteration when diacritics are not available? It is a most confusing convention. Why not use "S" for the first "sha" and "sh" for the second? This is what I have always done, and it has the advantage of not being visually jarring to the reader. Mani From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Aug 23 21:03:01 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 14:03:01 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020661.23782.13230896901091070727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> / FROM: "James L. Fitzgerald" , Aug 23 20:44 1995 | ABOUT: Re: Poverty | | >Dominik writes: | >* It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian | >* literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as | >* metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. | > Yes, a fascinating thread, to be sure. Lest anyone think I'm advocating poverty, I'm not! And perhaps I should have taken more care to differentiate between poverty and renunciation, but in any case, the original thought behind the posting of the editorial on poverty was to show a difference in perspective, East vs West. But in response to the above, here is some classical Tamil literature to enjoy regarding poverty, begging, and renunciation, from the Kural. I think pretty much everyone would agree with it. -Sadhunathan Poverty Verse 1041 Ask what is more miserable than being poor And the answer comes-only poverty pains like poverty. Verse 1042 Poverty, the cruelest of demons, deprives a man Of every joy in this life as well as the next. Verse 1043 That poison called poverty will destroy at once The honor of ancient descent and the refinement of speech. Verse 1044 Privation produces unmindfulness which gives birth To improper words, even in men of proper birth. Verse 1045 This one affliction called poverty Brings in its train a multitude of miseries. Verse 1046 The poor may perceive profoundly and speak skillfully, Yet their meaningful words are always forgotten. Verse 1047 Poverty, destitute of all virtue, estranges a man Even from the mother who bore him. Verse 1048 Will wretched poverty which is kiling me so Come again today as of yesterday? Verse 1049 Men may slumber even in the midst of fire, But none can find repose in poverty's presence. Verse 1050 Having become fatally impoverished, let a man fully renounce, Lest he fatally exhaust his neighbor's vinegar and salt. Begging Verse 1051 If you meet a man of means, you may beg his help. If he refuses, the fault is his, not yours. Verse 1052 Even begging can prove pleasurable When what is begged for comes without a sense of burden. Verse 1053 Begging has its own beauty if one supplicates Before dutiful men whose hearts never say no. Verse 1054 There are men who never deny a request even in a dream. Begging from such men is as good as giving. Verse 1055 Because men do exist on earth who never begrudge giving, Others dare to plead before men's gaze. Verse 1056 The evils of begging will flee at the mere sight Of those who are free from the evil of refusal. Verse 1057 There is rejoicing in a jubilant heart Upon seeing those who give without scoffing or scorning. Verse 1058 Deprived of its beggars, this vast and verdant earth Would be reduced to a sphere for the wooden play of puppets. Verse 1059 What glory would generous men have If there were none to beg and receive their gifts? Verse 1060 One who begs and is refused should not be angry For his own poverty is sufficient proof. Dread of Begging Verse 1061 It is ten million times better not to beg, even from those Precious few who find joy in generosity and thus never refuse. Verse 1062 Were it the world's Creator who wished men to live by begging, Men might well wish that He Himself also die a wanderer. Verse 1063 There is no greater foolhardiness than saying to oneself, "I shall End the pains of poverty by begging." Verse 1064 The entire world is too small to contain the dignity of men Who stoop not to beg even in the midst of destitution. Verse 1065 Though it is only gruel thin as water, nothing is more savory Than the food that is earned by the labor of one's hands. Verse 1066 The tongue finds nothing more distasteful than begging Even to simply plead for the cow's drinking water. Verse 1067 This I beg of all beggers, "If beg you must, beg not from misers." Verse 1068 The unsturdy ship called begging will break apart The moment it crashes against the rock of refusal. Verse 1069 Thoughts of the beggar's plight must melt one's heart, But thoughts of refusals he receives crushes it completely. Verse 1070 Is there any place a miser can safely hide When inside him resounds the word "no" which slays beggars? Greatness of Renunciates Verse 21 The scriptures exalt above every other good The greatness of virtuous renunciates. Verse 22 Attempting to speak of the renunciate's magnitude Is akin to measuring the human multitudes who have ever died. Verse 23 Behold those who have weighed the dual nature of things and followed The renunciate's way. Their greatness illumines the world. Verse 24 He whose firm will, wisdom's goading hook, controls his five senses Is a seed that will flourish in the fields of heaven. Verse 25 So great is the power of those who subdue the five senses, even Indra, Sovereign of spacious heaven's celestials, suffered their curse. Verse 26 The great ones are they who can dispatch the most Difficult tasks; the small ones are they who cannot. Verse 27 Touch, taste, sight, smell and hearing- He who controls these five magically controls the world. Verse 28 Their own secret sayings reveal to the world The greatness of men whose words prove prophetic. Verse 29 It is impossible to endure even a moment's wrath of those Who have scaled and stand upon the mountain called virtue. Verse 30 Renunciates are called the priestly ones For they are clothed in robes of compassion for all life. Renunciation Verse 341 Whatsoever a man has renounced, From the sorrow born of that he has freed himself. Verse 342 After a man has renounced, he enjoys the many true things in this World. Let men desiring that renounce in time. Verse 343 The five senses must be subdued And every desire simultaneously surrendered. Verse 344 The mendicant's poverty permits not a single possession, For possessions draws him back into delusion. Verse 345 What are life's petty attachments to the man who seeks severance From future births, when even his body is a burden? Verse 346 He who slays the conceit which clamors "I" and "mine" Will enter a realm above the celestials' world. Verse 347 If one clings to his attachments, refusing to let go, Sorrows will not let go their grip on him. Verse 348 Those who renounce totally reach the highest peak; The rest remain ensnared in delusions net. Verse 349 Birth ceases when all attachments are severed; Otherwise, one beholds unceasingly the transitoriness of life. Verse 350 Attach yourself to Him who is free from all attachments. Bind yourself to that bond in order that all other bonds may be broken. From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Wed Aug 23 13:22:49 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 14:22:49 +0100 Subject: Bruckner address Message-ID: <161227020642.23782.5941445212758742503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 95 19:48:35, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Thu, > 17 Aug 1995 19:48:35 MET >Message-ID: <199508171745.KAA13673 at unixg.ubc.ca> >Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:47:05 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca >To: Members of the list >Subject: Bruckner address >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list Dear Ashok, Heidrun's new address (since years) is: Staeudach 84 D-72074 Tuebingen Tel. 07071-83619 Do you remember me? We met once in Heidrun's parental home. Long ago, indeed. Best greetings, Axel > >The last address I have is: > >Dr. Heidrun Brueckner, Abteilung Indologie, Suedasien-Institut, >Universitaet Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69 Heidelberg, F.R. of >Germnay. . > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Wed Aug 23 13:25:02 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 14:25:02 +0100 Subject: Heidrun Bruckner address? Message-ID: <161227020645.23782.8641248129347042379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 95 18:59:11, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Thu, > 17 Aug 1995 18:59:10 MET >Message-ID: <64635.j.leslie at ucl.ac.uk> >Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:57:12 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Julia Leslie >To: Members of the list >Subject: Heidrun Bruckner address? >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list Dear Julia, Heidrun's private address is: Staeudach 84 D-72074 Tuebingen Tel. 07071-83619 Official address is the same as for Prof. Stietencron. She has no e-mail connection as far as I know. Best greetings and wishes, Axel > >Can anyone provide me with an address for Heidrun Bruckner, either email or >snailmail? > >I'd be most grateful. > >Julia Leslie > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From michaels at relwi.unibe.ch Wed Aug 23 13:27:46 1995 From: michaels at relwi.unibe.ch (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 14:27:46 +0100 Subject: Bruckner address Message-ID: <161227020648.23782.670327080175690051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 17 Aug 95 21:33:19, indology at liverpool.ac.uk wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from arwen.unibe.ch by morgoth.unibe.ch (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Thu, > 17 Aug 1995 21:33:19 MET >Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:31:29 BST >Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk >Sender: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: Martin Gaenszle >To: Members of the list >Subject: Re: Bruckner address >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Indology mailing list >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >MIME-Version: 1.0 Welcome on board, Martin! Love to all of you, Axel > >On Thu, 17 Aug 1995 aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca wrote: > >> The last address I have is: >> >> Dr. Heidrun Brueckner, Abteilung Indologie, Suedasien-Institut, >> Universitaet Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, 69 Heidelberg, F.R. of >> Germnay. . >> >> >Heidrun Brueckner is no longer in Heidelberg. Here is the present address: > >Prof. Heidrun Brueckner >Seminar fuer Indologie >Muenzgasse 30 >72074 Tuebingen > > > > >--------------------------------------------- >Dr. Martin Gaenszle >Seminar fuer Ethnologie/ Suedasien-Institut >Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >D-69120 Heidelberg >e-mail: martin.gaenszle at urz.uni-heidelberg.de >--------------------------------------------- > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof.Dr. Axel Michaels Universit{t Bern Institut f}r Religionswissenschaft Lerchenweg 36 CH-3000 Bern 9 Tel.: (0041)(0)31 631 80 62, Fax.: (0041)(0)31 631 35 51 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 23 95 Aug EDT 14:37:00 Date: 23 Aug 95 14:37:00 EDT From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Adi Granth On line? Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello members of the list, I am trying to identify and studying sections of guru bani and bhagata bani in, previously uncatalogued, manuscripts in a library in the UK. Does anyone know of any form of on line/computer file version of the Adi Granth? Thank you for any help you can provide. Peter Friedlander From PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU Wed Aug 23 15:16:25 1995 From: PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 15:16:25 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020654.23782.5664190969504021360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:06:11 BST Mani Varadarajan said: >Dominik writes: >* It is another fact of Sanskrit, Tamil and other classical Indian >* literature that poverty is rarely, if ever, glamorized or treated as >* metaphor, in the manner in which Sadhunathan has done. > >Here is a passage from the Mahabharata that praises poverty. >I do not agree with Sadhunathan's statements, but poverty and >renunciation are often claimed to be virtues in epic and Puranic >literature. > >The passage is marked as XII.176 in P.C. Ray's translation of the >vulgate. > >Mani > This thread regarding poverty has made for some interesting reading. I had already decided to dig out of my translation of the Zaanti Parvan the following, very apposite speech of "Dhanam-jaya," "winner of wealth," Arjuna (from what I refer to as the "Persuasion of YudhiSThira" (MBh 12.7-38)), when M. Varadarajan posted the 'Song of Zamyaaka' from the MBh's Zaanti Parvan (MBh 12.170 in the Poona edition; 12.176 in the vulgate, where the name occurs as Zampaaka). This 'giitaa' praises "having nothing at all" (aakimcanya), an idea which Arjuna explicitly rebuts in a speech in MBh 12.8. YudhiSThira, filled with grief and remorse at the war's slaughter, has just announced his intention to refuse to rule the kingdom (12.7.34-41), saying among other things, "The [Vedic?] teaching is, 'One who has possessions [parigrahavant] is not able to acquire the whole of the Law,' and that is obvious to me, O you who finish off your enemies." (12.7.37) Arjuna immediately attacked his more delicate older brother with great vehemence and, among other arguments, emphatically asserted the most radical pravRtti perspective on wealth and poverty: ================================================================ (The following is only a semi-final draft of what will be sent to the University of Chicago Press next year for what will be volume 7 of its complete translation of the MBh, which should be available some time in 1997; particularly unfinished at the moment are the renderings of dharma, which I had left simply as "dharma" in earlier drafts.) [Arjuna to YudhiSThira: MBh 12.8.11-32] NahuSa said, 'Having nothing whatsoever is not desirable, for cruel things must be done in poverty. Poverty be damned!' Sir, you know well the 'nothing for tomorrow' ideal of seers, but what they call 'Law' proceeds from wealth. If someone steals a man's wealth, he shrinks that one's ability to perform lawful deeds and acquire merit. If someone were stealing our wealth, king, would we put up with it? People look upon a poor man standing nearby as if he were to blame for it. Poverty is something that degrades a person's position in the world, why would anyone praise it? King, a man whose status is degraded grieves, and so does he who has no wealth. I see no difference between a man of degraded status and a poor one. Like streams running down from the mountains, all undertakings proceed from wealth gathered from here and there and then made to increase. Law and love and heaven come from wealth, O lord over men; the world would not manage to survive without wealth. All the undertakings of a stupid man bereft of wealth dissipate into nothingness, like puny little rivers in the summer. He who has wealth has friends, he who has wealth has relatives, he who has wealth is a man in the world, he who has wealth is a learned expert. A poor man who longs for wealth cannot get it just by wanting it--wealth comes in the train of prior wealth the way mighty elephants are tied behind other elephants. Law, love, heaven, joy, anger, learning, self-control--all these proceed from wealth. The family arises from wealth, the Law proceeds from wealth. A poor man has neither this world nor the next one, O highest among men. A man with no wealth cannot properly perform those deeds the Law requires of him. Law flows out of wealth like a mountain river from a rocky peak. And, king, a man who is lean only in his own body is not truly lean; truly lean is he whose horses, cattle, household, and guests are lean. Look at this according to basic principles. Look how it is with the Gods and the Asuras. What more is there to it, king, than that the Gods thrive from having killed their kinsmen {=the Asuras}? If nothing belonging to another may be taken, how could one even begin to do his lawful duties? The seers have come to this conclusion in the Vedas (the three-fold body of Vedic Learning must be studied, that is a necessity for a seer): 'Wealth is to be appropriated in every way and sacrificial rites of worship are to be carried out with painstaking effort.' In every case the Gods obtained their positions in heaven through violence. Thus did the Gods decide, and so say the everlasting words of the Veda. They recite the Vedas, do asceticism, perform sacrificial worship, and officiate at the sacrifices of others--all that is better when one takes from another. We do not see any wealth whatsoever, not anywhere, that has not been carried off from somewhere else. For that is exactly how kings win this earth in war. And having won it they declare it to be 'mine,' as sons do with their father's wealth. The seers who were kings won heaven by conquest, for this is declared to be their Law. As waters flow out of the plentiful ocean in all the ten directions, so wealth spreads out over the earth from the family of the king. =============================================================== Arjuna's diatribe against poverty and his justification of violence did not persuade YudhiSThira--he soon (12.9.1ff.) launched into a glowing description of ascetic poverty in the forest (acknowledging somewhat reluctantly that in time ". . . one's basic nature comes to the fore, and one's meals become very important" (12.9.20ab) so one must go in search of food). I'll not pass any easy judgments on who are the devils and who are the angels in this discussion. But both sides are able to quote the MBh scriptures convincingly on this issue because the Bhaarata sages were emphatically of more than one mind on this subject. Jim Fitzgerald ============================================================ ============================================================ James L. Fitzgerald Home 8708 Kingsridge Dr. Dept of Religious Studies Knoxville, TN 37923 University of Tennessee 615-539-2881 Knoxville, TN 37996-0450 email:pa114508 at utkvm1.utk.edu Phone: 615-974-2467 Fax 615-974-0965 ============================================================ ============================================================  From hgroover at qualitas.com Wed Aug 23 20:39:16 1995 From: hgroover at qualitas.com (Henry Groover) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 16:39:16 -0400 Subject: Poverty -Reply Message-ID: <161227020658.23782.16010523806446386241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm also curious about this. I thought CSX encoding used sh for the first and shh for the second. The only table I've seen for 7-bit ICSS encoding comes from itrans documentation by Avinash Chopde. - Henry Groover HGroover at Qualitas.com >>> Mani Varadarajan 08/23/95 09:28pm >>> As an aside, since when has it become standard to use "Z" for the first "sha" (I forget its technical name) in transliteration when diacritics are not available? It is a most confusing convention. Why not use "S" for the first "sha" and "sh" for the second? This is what I have always done, and it has the advantage of not being visually jarring to the reader. Mani From PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU Wed Aug 23 17:14:02 1995 From: PA114508 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 17:14:02 +0000 Subject: Poverty -Reply Message-ID: <161227020663.23782.2761125472143968921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I guess it was my posting that occasioned these two questions, I'll respond as to my own use of z for the palatal sibilant. I am simply mimicking the usage of Prof. Tokunaga's transliteration in his electronic version of the MBh. It is simply one way to make regular expression searches of the electronic text easier. His version of the Arthazaastra carries the scheme out more fully. I employ it in e-mail, etc., simply as an inter- mediate, pragmatic solution to an annoying technological discrepancy. For my own written work I either use a cobbled together set of characters and macros in Word Perfect 6.1 or, more satisfactory in terms of the final product, a set of specially designed diacritical characters for the HPLaserjetIII that I access through the ancient post-processor in FinalWordII (a beloved old friend that is aging gracefully, in spite of GUIs, SVGA, etc.) If and when the Indological world arrives at some convenient standard for all these script-issues I'll join up too as soon as it's easy. Jim Fitzgerald On Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:44:04 BST Henry Groover said: >I'm also curious about this. I thought CSX encoding used sh for the first >and shh for the second. The only table I've seen for 7-bit ICSS encoding >comes from itrans documentation by Avinash Chopde. > >- Henry Groover >HGroover at Qualitas.com > >>>> Mani Varadarajan 08/23/95 >09:28pm >>> >As an aside, since when has it become standard to use "Z" for the first >"sha" (I forget its technical name) in transliteration when diacritics are >not available? It is a most confusing convention. Why not use "S" for >the first >"sha" and "sh" for the second? This is what I have always done, and it >has the advantage of not being visually jarring to the reader. > >Mani > > > > From lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu Thu Aug 24 14:35:17 1995 From: lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 07:35:17 -0700 Subject: O'Neil Address Message-ID: <161227020680.23782.586785698624536310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone help me locate L. Thomas O'Neil, author of _Maya in Sankara: Measuring the Immeasurable_ (South Asia Books, 1980)? Thanks in advance. Lance --------------------------- Lance Nelson Religious Studies University of San Diego lnelson at pwa.acusd.edu --------------------------- From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Thu Aug 24 00:15:15 1995 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 10:15:15 +1000 Subject: Siddha Yoga New Yorker Message-ID: <161227020665.23782.1200504927478092285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some months back I recall seeing an issue of the New Yorker which carried a detailed article on the ins and outs of the Siddha Yoga Dham or SYDA or such names that Baba Muktananda's beseiged order goes by. Does anyone know which issue, month and date, it appeared in, and the title? I made a reference to it and need to note it . Bilimoria From kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com Thu Aug 24 06:07:09 1995 From: kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com (kpadmaso at spc-srv-a.efit.elcm.eds.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 11:07:09 +0500 Subject: Request: Info about font encoding schemes Message-ID: <161227020681.23782.2577658124155737687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What are the various coding schemes for the Devanagari font and where can I find more information about them? So far, in this list I have seen people mention the CSX, ICCS etc. forms of encoding. Thanks From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Thu Aug 24 18:42:24 1995 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 11:42:24 -0700 Subject: sh/Z (was: Poverty) Message-ID: <161227020687.23782.14141123651393149393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No one has still addressed my question of whether using z/Z for "s is a good trend. In my opinion, it is very visually jarring, since it is not intuitive for readers of English to make a connection between a 'z' sound and the sibilant is is supposed to represent. Since digraphs are still used for 'tha', 'Tha', etc., why not use a digraph for one of the sibilants? Mani From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 24 11:04:48 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 12:04:48 +0100 Subject: Poverty -Reply Message-ID: <161227020667.23782.14741240251752579570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'm also curious about this. I thought CSX encoding used sh for the first >and shh for the second. The only table I've seen for 7-bit ICSS encoding >comes from itrans documentation by Avinash Chopde. > There are several ways of encoding Sanskrit. The CSX uses certain ASCII numbers to represent special Sanskrit characters, and the font page will ensure that your screen shows the correct character. In other words: One ASCII number for each character. Other methods use composite characters. The main thing is that the system allows easy conversion from one format to another, so that the scholar can utilize all sorts of analytical programs and sorting mechanisms. Z for sh (first s) is another way of representing this character by means of another single character. The following table shows three different solutions for representing the s'es. (TZ-format = Tuebingen-Zuerich format) CSX TZ Harvard-Kyoto sh 247 /s z shh 249 .s S s s s s There are other ways of transliterating Sanskrit as well, but only two basic principles: Either one ASCII character = once Sanskrit character, or two (or more) ASCII characters = one Sanskrit character. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Aug 24 11:10:48 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 12:10:48 +0100 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020669.23782.16164440168637279782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sadhunathan Nadesan wrote: >And perhaps I should have taken more care to differentiate between >poverty and renunciation, but in any case, the original thought behind >the posting of the editorial on poverty was to show a difference in >perspective, East vs West. I am not quite sure that this is a difference between the East and the West. It seems far more likely that it is a difference between rich and poor. In the West you will often find rich people who take the poverty of others quite lightly and who romanticize it unashamedly. Thus, they don't have to make any sacrifices in order to alleviate it. You should really ask those who are poor without choosing to be so if they prefer their present situation. I'll bet that most of them don't and would rather be rich, or at least moderatly well-to-do. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Thu Aug 24 11:03:01 1995 From: ami0209 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Johannes B. Tuemmers) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:03:01 +0200 Subject: off for holidays Message-ID: <161227020671.23782.14373160495723600925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear readers, I'm temporarily unsubscribed until 15. September. best wishes - Johannes B. Tuemmers MA - From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 13:27:49 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:27:49 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020673.23782.1336617471861706333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk said: > But the Moghuls both took and gave, not least in contemporary > tourist revenues. (Like mad Maximilian with his fairy castle in > Bavaria.) I made a mistake: I meant mad king Ludwig of Bavaria, not Maximilian. Dominik From Sfauthor at aol.com Thu Aug 24 17:43:51 1995 From: Sfauthor at aol.com (Sfauthor at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:43:51 -0400 Subject: Poverty & SA Studies Message-ID: <161227020683.23782.953649423373462487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: A marker that foreign governments are not overly impressed by the Indian economic performance is the fact that departments of South Asian studies around the world seem to be under pressure to contract, and staff are being shed due to lack of government interest in SA languages and cultures. By contrast, departments of Middle Eastern, Japanese, and Korean studies are expanding rapidly. My take is that, at least in the United States, Russian studies expanded because the USSR was perceived as a military threat, Japanese studies expanded because Japan was perceived as an economic threat, Chinese studies studies expanded because China was perceived as an economic opportunity, and Indian studies remained stagnant because India was not perceived as much of anything. With luck, liberalization will work and India will be perceived as an economic opportunity and not as a military or economic threat. And then perhaps South Asian studies will benefit. From mitra at aecom.yu.edu Thu Aug 24 17:58:32 1995 From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:58:32 -0400 Subject: Comparing Indian business situation with successful Pacific islands. Message-ID: <161227020685.23782.451805945094416595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominick pointed out that the demand for Indic languages in academic institutions are falling, while those for Japanese, Korean and other related ones going in the other direction. Hence, this may be taken as an indication of the relative 'economic' health in those regions. I don't think anyone has any doubts about the robustness of the Japanese economy (not just relative to India) to other 'powerful' ones. The 'reform' process in India is only 4 years old -it may not be appropriate to look for much 'greatness' in a pursuit this early. Japan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia and other economies involve much smaller population size, economic, political, social and religious disparity in them than does India or even China. There are more poor (& rich) people in some cities in India than in many other nations! The per capita GDP of China is ~$420 and that of India is ~$360. The sheer size of these two nations (in terms of population and area) if becomes a place with a per capita GDP of ~$25000 - would have to create wealth in magnitude that the world has never seen before. Yes, once it happens there will be many people wishing to learn Indic languages -it surely is not going to happen in the next 100 years. In regard to the reality of the optimism in Indian business people, I would like to point out that there is no place where people do not start with hope. In many cases, their optimism may disappoint some but it rejuvenates and enthuses many to accomplish things that they have never done before. I doubt if any of these people think every one of the billion Indian people will be rich within the next decade but I do think that each of those billion will be better off -some more better than others, of course, in the not so distant future. Here in N Y City, some do ride Lamborghinis while others the subway. In London, I suppose not many Indologists go to work in a Rolls R. I think in India there are and there will be similar differences. My hope is that the lowest rung of the Indian population be given more opportunity to move up faster without being gobbled up in casteism, religious clashes and other evils. A 'level playing field' will do! --Joydeep Mitra. From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 13:59:57 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:59:57 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020678.23782.1882327649886874128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan S. Raja said: > > One basic fact that jumps out at > you is that, in fact, most Indians > who follow business/finance are > highly optimistic and confident > about the economy. Yes, I noticed that this attitude was common amongst many Indians, including some businessmen and politicians whom I met over the last year in India. I could never understand it: it seemed to demonstrate extraordinary blindness to the attitudes and experiences of European and American companies trying to do business in India, or form partnerships with Indian companies. I have some experience of this too, since I know business people and engineers in the UK who have been trying to set up collaborative projects in India. They have not found it an encouraging experience, and I have heard nothing from them that makes me believe that there is anything to be optimistic and confident about. A marker that foreign governments are not overly impressed by the Indian economic performance is the fact that departments of South Asian studies around the world seem to be under pressure to contract, and staff are being shed due to lack of government interest in SA languages and cultures. By contrast, departments of Middle Eastern, Japanese, and Korean studies are expanding rapidly. In my opinion, the liberalization of the Indian economy since 1992 has had a very beneficial effect in many spheres of activity, but it has also generated and unrealistic euphoria in the minds of people who have hitherto been unused to even the incomplete freedoms that have been granted. There is still a very great distance to go before the liberalization policy is fully implemented (ask any bookseller who has to export books), and even then, most areas of the Indian infrastructure (electricity, communications, roads, railways, shipping, health) contain an almost infinite capacity to absorb funding. I'm sorry, this isn't really indological. I'll stop. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 14:15:41 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 14:15:41 +0000 Subject: sh/Z (was: Poverty) Message-ID: <161227020676.23782.15524141807682183263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Henry Groover said: > > I'm also curious about this. I thought CSX encoding used sh for the first > and shh for the second. The only table I've seen for 7-bit ICSS encoding > comes from itrans documentation by Avinash Chopde. CSX encoding is 8-bit, with one Sanskrit letter = one code point. So with the right screen/printer fonts you can type it and see the properly accented characters as you go. The sh, shh, encodings you mention are nothing to do with CSX. There is a 7-bit encoding for Devanagari that is used in Frans Velthuis's Devanagari system for TeX and, being simple and logical, it is sometimes used in email too. In Frans's system, the palatal sibilant is "s, and the retroflex is .s where the quotes and dot are not punctuation, but parts of the digraph. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Thu Aug 24 14:21:11 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 14:21:11 +0000 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020675.23782.5769189563426269434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sadhunathan Nadesan wrote: > [...] but in any case, the original thought behind >the posting of the editorial on poverty was to show a difference in >perspective, East vs West. Actually, there is a long and respected tradition of religious poverty and asceticism in the West, just as much as in India. It isn't an idea you can use to contrast East and West. Dominik From conlon at u.washington.edu Thu Aug 24 22:16:06 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 15:16:06 -0700 Subject: India's economic boom and South Asian studies: a linkage? Message-ID: <161227020689.23782.16167165228062699804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I hesitate to throw cold water upon the idea that somehow maybe the emergence of India as an economic tiger will carry over into enhanced support for the academic study of India and Indian languages. I am, however, persuaded that in the near term future, those of us who are in the enterprise of teaching and researching on traditional India, or who have the constant concern about protecting South Asian studies from the budget cutters, will not gain much advantage. With luck we may get a small breathing space. My reasons for this view are: 1. India's continued use of the English language will mean that transactions at the elite level will continue in that medium. A person who is well-connected and knowledgeable about India said something to the effect that "There is no need for me to insult my Indian counterparts by speaking grade three Hindi when their command of English is better than the average high school graduate in America. It may break the ice and be a source of laughter, but negotiations will be in English." In Japan and Korea and China, the perception of such a utility for English is not present. 2. India's economic liberalization -- if successful -- will attract much interest and again, we may be able to leverage some of our activities on the grounds of their strategic value. However, my impression so far as that the emergence of India as a hot topic has meant the entry into the arena of academics who are comparativist in perspective--industrial policy and political economy specialists who doubt that knowledge of Kannada or Marathi will be of any use other than for giving orders to a taxi driver. Some of these scholars are very attuned to the import of a local culture, others assume that the world is going to converge, so why worry about local details. The latter point reflects my sense that South Asia as an academic field has tended to be a zone of refuge for a wide variety of people who do not take much pleasure in more mundane or pedestrian pursuits. (This of course does not apply to you or me who are very much "with it", but there may be others...) This is not to say that knowledge of the Gita, the Mahabharata, the Quran, the Buddhacaritra, the abhangs of Tukaram, the Guru Granth Sahib, the poetry of Ghalib, or the dramas of Kalidas, is not valuable and important. The problem is that such study is not viewed as practical. It is the same for knowledge of Shakespeare, Milton and the Bible. These are items which may stretch the mind, but they do not have any apparent application to short term business or strategic solutions. Remember, the bottom line is as low as you can go. Frank F. Conlon Professor of History University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 Co-editor of H-ASIA p.s. I have not entered above into the widespread problems of the application of the industrial production model to academic institutions in Europe and America--here too the bottom line comes into play in terms of student enrollments and allocation of scarce resources. The tragedy of the situation is that we are very inexpensive until you factor in the relative ability to obtain external research funding with potential for overhead (indirect cost) charges which help many American universities to balance the books each year. So let us concentrate upon the work and not upon the fruits thereof... From HaroldA at eworld.com Fri Aug 25 06:01:15 1995 From: HaroldA at eworld.com (HaroldA at eworld.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 23:01:15 -0700 Subject: sh/Z (was: Poverty) Message-ID: <161227020691.23782.18005496975625301978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----------------------------- Begin Original Text ----------------------------- There is a 7-bit encoding for Devanagari that is used in Frans Velthuis's Devanagari system for TeX and, being simple and logical, it is sometimes used in email too. ----------------------------- End Original Text ----------------------------- Where can I find the whole system? It seems useful, even though I don't use TeX, or even know what it is, for that matter. Yrs. Harold Arnold >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 25 95 Aug EDT 10:17:00 Date: 25 Aug 95 10:17:00 EDT From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Re: Encoding Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello Not only has every Devanagari font I have ever used has had a different encoding but also every Devanagari font I have seen uses a different encoding. From jage at loc.gov Fri Aug 25 13:20:28 1995 From: jage at loc.gov (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:20:28 -0400 Subject: Encoding Message-ID: <161227020698.23782.14466377693023302478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friday, August 25, 1995 In November 1991 the Bureau of Indian Standards (BIS) issued "Indian standard: Indian script code for information interchange" (IS 13194) It deals with the codes for letters leaving codes for conjuncts to the software which will render the code visible for readers. I do not have a price. Their address is (or was in 1991) Manak Bhavan, 9 Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, New Delhi 110002. Though I have not been to India since 1982 I believe some word processing software in India uses this encoding scheme. An earlier vesion of this standard was the basis for encoding Indic scripts in the international standard ISO/IEC 10646 of which the Unicode(TM) standard encoding scheme is an implementation. The above is a purely personal opinion, not the official view of any government or any agency of any. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 25 16:52:15 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020700.23782.10351510829812622190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | You should really ask | those who are poor without choosing to be so if they prefer their present | situation. I'll bet that most of them don't and would rather be rich, or at | least moderatly well-to-do. | ...... Of course! That's exactly what I'd expect. From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 25 16:53:27 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:53:27 -0700 Subject: Poverty Message-ID: <161227020701.23782.13870164505052160003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | Actually, there is a long and respected tradition of religious poverty | and asceticism in the West, just as much as in India. It isn't an idea | you can use to contrast East and West. | good point From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 25 11:23:00 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:23:00 +0000 Subject: Encoding Message-ID: <161227020695.23782.8929053401702496279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk said: > > Hello > Not only has every Devanagari font I have ever used has had a different > encoding but also every Devanagari font I have seen uses a different > encoding. Yes, but input encoding is, or at least should be, different from font encoding. In other words, a well-designed editing or formatting program should insulate you from the nasty details of the underlying font layout. So it should be possible to take a single input text and output it using this, that, or the other font. That's what John Smith has provided with his integration of the Jaisalmer Devanagari with TeX. Now one can print one's TeX files in Velthuis or Jaisalmer, without changing the input file at all. The input coding is the same for both. Unfortunately, there are not many "well-designed" text processing systems around that achieve this ideal of font-encoding-independence, especially when complex ligatures such as those in Devanagari are concerned. Dominik From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Fri Aug 25 11:53:20 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:53:20 +0000 Subject: acknowledgement? Message-ID: <161227020696.23782.10739096098513325285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear M. Quiviger, I can't explain it, but my message responding to your query about Roberto de Nobili and the prohibition of sex during pregnancy seems to have disappeared completely. This is annoying, since it was quite long and had detailed documentation. In short, I found that the classical medical text of Caraka says that the pregnant woman must avoid over-exertion, riding on carts, etc., but does not mention intercourse. The author Sushruta adds intercourse to a similar list of prohibitions. The later author Vagbhata, in his influential Ashtangahrdaya, prohibits "excessive" sex during pregnancy. Evidently he is trying to harmonize the two earlier views. Dominik From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Aug 25 11:12:31 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 12:12:31 +0100 Subject: India's economic boom and South Asian studies: a linkage? Message-ID: <161227020693.23782.2686736222572115957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Frank Conlon wrote: > I am, >however, persuaded that in the near term future, those of us who are in >the enterprise of teaching and researching on traditional India, or who >have the constant concern about protecting South Asian studies from the >budget cutters, will not gain much advantage. With luck we may get a >small breathing space. The attitudes of the funding authorities are certainly a problem. Much will depend on how South Asianists try to "sell" their activities. > >My reasons for this view are: > >1. India's continued use of the English language will mean that >transactions at the elite level will continue in that medium. A person >who is well-connected and knowledgeable about India said something to the >effect that "There is no need for me to insult my Indian counterparts by >speaking grade three Hindi when their command of English is better than >the average high school graduate in America. It may break the ice and be >a source of laughter, but negotiations will be in English." In Japan and >Korea and China, the perception of such a utility for English is not present. I feel that this is partly beside the point. When Chinese studies are encouraged and funded, the idea is probably not that every business man conducting business in China should be able to negotiate in Chinese. The motive is rather a feeling that the country should have a pool of experts who can offer advice, produce analyses and act as interpreters. In India, the use of the English language mostly removes the need for interpreters, but experts on various aspects of South Asian matters will still be needed if the Western economies are to interact with India in a more vigorous manner. For such experts, knowledge of Indic languages may be important. > >2. ... Some of these scholars are very attuned to the import of a >local culture, others assume that the world is going to converge, so why >worry about local details. > >The latter point reflects my sense that South Asia as an academic field >has tended to be a zone of refuge for a wide variety of people who do not >take much pleasure in more mundane or pedestrian pursuits. (This of >course does not apply to you or me who are very much "with it", but there >may be others...) I am afraid that this is correct. But on the other hand, the same thing applies to a number of humanist studies. The humanities and their representatives have not been very good at making themselves "relevant". There are historical reasons for this, it is part of the ideology of the value of "pure knowledge" and contempt for practical work which goes back to the times of Plato. The Humanities have lost ground partly because they found it beneath their dignity to defend themselves against the onslaught of modern science. Their loss of "relevance" is partly self-inflicted, but it is also caused by modern "cost-benefit" analysis, where the Humanities easily get into a jam. Humanists need to do some hard thinking about their role in society and the value of their contributions. >Remember, the bottom line is as low as you can go. The bottom line is an imaginary entity. Like all imaginary entities it can be place anywhere provided you are able to convince others that "anywhere" is the right place for it. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From mitra at aecom.yu.edu Fri Aug 25 20:19:04 1995 From: mitra at aecom.yu.edu (Joydeep Mitra) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 16:19:04 -0400 Subject: Comparing Indian business situation with successful Pacific Message-ID: <161227020707.23782.6797729762082733971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, those are UN figures! $360 => ~Rs11,160. There are many, many Indians who 'live by' with that kind of money the 'whole' year -it is true, really. The standard of such 'living' is obviously vastly different from those in 'rich' countries. There is another scale (also from the UN) which uses the 'buying power' of the people of a country (correcting for currency exchange rates) - in that scale the per capita GDP (buying power index) of India is higher than $360. On Fri, 25 Aug 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > Joydeep Mitra writes: > > >The per capita GDP of China is ~$420 and that of India is ~$360. > > A quibble. Surely such figures should not be quoted (in an academic > context, at least). Clearly, if the annual income of the average Indian was > ~$360, then the average Indian would be dead within three months ! This > kind of figure is a rather misleading artefact of exchange rates. I have > seen even more absurd figures quoted for Africa. > > Lance Cousins > > MANCHESTER, UK > Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Fri Aug 25 19:06:47 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 20:06:47 +0100 Subject: Comparing Indian business situation with successful Pacific islands. Message-ID: <161227020703.23782.5324383596472200339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Joydeep Mitra writes: >The per capita GDP of China is ~$420 and that of India is ~$360. A quibble. Surely such figures should not be quoted (in an academic context, at least). Clearly, if the annual income of the average Indian was ~$360, then the average Indian would be dead within three months ! This kind of figure is a rather misleading artefact of exchange rates. I have seen even more absurd figures quoted for Africa. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Fri Aug 25 19:06:52 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 20:06:52 +0100 Subject: sh/Z (was: Poverty) Message-ID: <161227020705.23782.2204284995243802140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mani writes: >No one has still addressed my question of whether using >z/Z for "s is a good trend. In my opinion, it is very >visually jarring, since it is not intuitive for readers >of English to make a connection between a 'z' sound and >the sibilant is is supposed to represent. Since digraphs >are still used for 'tha', 'Tha', etc., why not use a >digraph for one of the sibilants? I rather agree. My own particular complaint is that this system rules out using capital letters for punctuation, as is normal in many areas of Buddhist studies which use romanized text. So as far as I am concerned, it is unusable. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 25 1995 Aug EST 15:46:15 Date: 25 Aug 1995 15:46:15 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: RE: COMPARATIVE POVERTY On artifacts of exchange rates, my personal favorite was some news report on the difficulties in Ethiopia. It said the average income for a college professor for $100 a month but that he would have 100 unemployed relatives dependent on him. Either buying power is awesome or their metabolisms are incredibly efficient. Allen Thrasher From agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 26 16:02:17 1995 From: agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk (Anthony Good) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:02:17 +0000 Subject: Comparing Indian business Message-ID: <161227020709.23782.11300363589671913305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Joydeep Mitra writes: >Well, those are UN figures! $360 => ~Rs11,160. There are many, many Indians >who 'live by' with that kind of money the 'whole' year -it is true, really. >The standard of such 'living' is obviously vastly different from those in >'rich' countries. > >On Fri, 25 Aug 1995, L.S.Cousins wrote: > >> Joydeep Mitra writes: >> >> >The per capita GDP of China is ~$420 and that of India is ~$360. >> >> A quibble. Surely such figures should not be quoted (in an academic >> context, at least). Clearly, if the annual income of the average Indian was >> ~$360, then the average Indian would be dead within three months ! I can certainly confirm Joydeep Mitra's comments from personal field experience. A relatively well-paid manual labourer in a small South India town in the mid-80s might get Rs30-40 per day. They would have to work 290 days per annum at Rs 40 to earn $360. Clerical workers might be even worse off; temple staff earned around Rs300 per month (admittedly with some meals as an extra). Surely there is no controversy whatever over this kind of figure, and I cannot understand why Lance Cousins finds them hard to believe. Tony Good From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Sat Aug 26 16:44:48 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 17:44:48 +0100 Subject: Comparing Indian business Message-ID: <161227020711.23782.10251066120090647197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anthony Good wrote: >I can certainly confirm Joydeep Mitra's comments from personal field >experience. A relatively well-paid manual labourer in a small South India >town >in the mid-80s might get Rs30-40 per day. They would have to work 290 days >per >annum at Rs 40 to earn $360. Clerical workers might be even worse off; temple >staff earned around Rs300 per month (admittedly with some meals as an extra). >Surely there is no controversy whatever over this kind of figure, and I cannot >understand why Lance Cousins finds them hard to believe. This tallies quite nicely with information I received in 1985, when a riksha-wallah in Agra told me they made about 30-40 rupees a day. A driver told me he earned 400 Rs a month. The interesting question is, however: How much do 40 rupees buy - locally? Does anybody have an idea about how this translates into food, heating, shelter etc.? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no >?From ANDREWC at cc1.uca.edu 26 95 Aug CST6CDT 14:52:34 Date: 26 Aug 95 14:52:34 CST6CDT From: Andrew Cohen Subject: brit mus Does anyone know if the British Museum, specifically the South Asia dept., has an e-mail address? or their fax number? Thanks Andrew Cohen From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Sun Aug 27 18:39:05 1995 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 11:39:05 -0700 Subject: Comparing Indian business Message-ID: <161227020714.23782.12280894583460204022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The figures on 'exchange rate' are further distorted by the fact that while some sectors of the economy are NOT 'translatable' some ARE (or nearly so). Ie. while labor costs are much lower in India than in most Western countries, many comodity costs are nearly equivalent. Or, while Indian-produced goods are relatively cheap (eg. soft drinks) Import items are expensive. Or, government- subsidised goods are (obviously) cheap (eg. many grains, electricity, etc.) non-subsidised goods are expensive. All of this makes gross translation of even relative income/expenditure difficult unless one compares individuals at particular life-styles and expectations. Ironically, the Indian village farmer DOES perhaps come out better-off than the American family farmer; but the the Indian pensioned middle- class is 'less well-off' than an American equivalent. (Speaking of a farmer holding say 100 acres of land in both America and India). Peter Claus From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Sun Aug 27 15:02:59 1995 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 16:02:59 +0100 Subject: Comparing Indian business Message-ID: <161227020712.23782.8944293893856258480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tony Good writes: >I can certainly confirm Joydeep Mitra's comments from personal field >experience. A relatively well-paid manual labourer in a small South India >town >in the mid-80s might get Rs30-40 per day. They would have to work 290 >days per >annum at Rs 40 to earn $360. Clerical workers might be even worse off; temple >staff earned around Rs300 per month (admittedly with some meals as an extra). >Surely there is no controversy whatever over this kind of figure, and I cannot >understand why Lance Cousins finds them hard to believe. I have no particular quarrel with the figures in rupees (I have not checked them). It is the suggestion that they can be translated into dollars at prevailing exchange rates that I object to, if that is used to produce comparative standards of living. Exchange rates are simply an economic artefact, produced by government policies. Put very simply, for this purpose, the amount in rupees required to produce food for a day in India must equal the amount in dollars needed to produce a minimal food requirement in the U.S.A. or Europe. Certainly, a Manchester worker with a family would have difficulty in surviving the year on $360 if that were truly his whole income. Moreover, you must take into account non-monetary income or you get the absurd result for a peasant growing his own food that his annual income may be zero or very little more than this. This critical for India where large numbers outside or partially outside the monetary economy distort the average figures radically. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Email: mhcrxlc at dir.mcc.ac.uk From kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu Mon Aug 28 04:29:48 1995 From: kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu (kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 09:29:48 +0500 Subject: sh/Z (was: Poverty) Message-ID: <161227020716.23782.15573637579615390721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HaroldA at eworld.com writes: > > ----------------------------- Begin Original Text > ----------------------------- > > There is a 7-bit encoding for Devanagari that is used in Frans > Velthuis's Devanagari system for TeX and, being simple and logical, it > is sometimes used in email too. > ----------------------------- End Original Text ----------------------------- > Where can I find the whole system? It seems useful, even though I don't use > TeX, or even know what it is, for that matter. If you do an archie search for devnag, you should be able to find its location. If not, let me know and I can find out for you. TeX is a document typesetting system (public domain) written by Donald Knuth of Stanford University. Although originally developed to typeset technical documents (hence the name TeX, pronounced tech), it has proved to be useful to typeset other kinds of documents, including documents in other languages. > > Yrs. Harold Arnold > > > From PLANAGHA at macc.wisc.edu Mon Aug 28 20:17:00 1995 From: PLANAGHA at macc.wisc.edu (Patrick Lanaghan) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 15:17:00 -0500 Subject: Address of Anatole Peltier Message-ID: <161227020719.23782.5210297070050679449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very grateful if anyone could provide an email or postal address for Dr. Anatole-Roger Peltier. He was at one time with the Ecole Francaise d'Extreme Orient. Sincerely, Patrick Lanaghan From Alan.Thew at liverpool.ac.uk Mon Aug 28 16:48:47 1995 From: Alan.Thew at liverpool.ac.uk (Alan Thew) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:48:47 +0100 Subject: Gopher archives up to date (July 95) Message-ID: <161227020718.23782.12605346857411344133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The archives for the lists: sophia philos-l indology are now up to date and contain the last completed month (July). It is hoped to provide WWW access, and provide access to the latest archives (to the day) soon. The URL is gopher://gopher.liv.ac.uk/11/lists If you have any questions/complaints about this, please do not discuss them on the list since I will not see your mail but mail me directly at list.admin at liverpool.ac.uk -- Alan Thew alan.thew at liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it Mon Aug 28 21:47:44 1995 From: torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it (torella at rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 22:47:44 +0100 Subject: Kuppuswami Inst. Message-ID: <161227020721.23782.7516713055233903347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I take the liberty of reproducing and forwarding to the List the main points of the letter I have recently received from the Kuppuswami Shastri Institute, Madras. I am sure that the present difficult situation of this prestigious research Institute will not fail to arouse* the active interest of the colleagues. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Madras 2.8.1995 Dear Prof. Torella, I take the privilege of sharing with you some latest developments at the Kuppuswami Shastri Research Institute, Madras, as you are one of the friends for many years. Of course, you are aware of the general trends in the history of the Institute, which could be also be seen at a glance from the enclosure. (...) The Institute had to become again independent of the Govt. support from April 95 due to unforeseen circumstances. Our emergent need is to collect within a year or two at least Rs.30 lakhs towards corpus/endowment fund and to meet the annual expenditure on the establishment and academic work. In this connection, we are appealing to scholar-friends like yourself, well-wishers of the Institute, and benevolent patrons of Sanskritic and Indological studies. I therefore request you, on behalf of the Institute, to contribute considerably, in one, two or more easy instalments. The draft is to be drawn in the name of the Kuppuswami Shastri Research Institute, Madras. An official receipt will be duly sent to you. I hope to hear from you positively and I sincerely thank you in anticipation, Yours sincerely, S.S. Janaki <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali, Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' From kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu Tue Aug 29 04:26:19 1995 From: kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu (kxp5195 at hertz.njit.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 09:26:19 +0500 Subject: Is honey found in Arka trees? Message-ID: <161227020724.23782.6529548080186442687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H. Isaacson writes: > The following subhaa.sita is often quoted (eg. "Sabara's Bhaa.sya > 1.2.4; Yuktidiipikaa ad Saankhyakaarikaa 2; > Saardhatri"satikaalottaravrtti ad 8.12; > Nyaayavaarttikataatparya.tiikaa ad Nyaayasuutra 1.2.1 etc.): arke > cen madhu vindeta kimartham parvata.m vrajet| i.s.tasyaarthasya > sampraaptau ko vidvaan yatnam aacaret|| [stuff deleted] > Should one assume that arka is correct and that it refers to the > tree (?Calotropis Gigantia (Linn) R.Br ex Ait.)? Is honey never > found in such trees? Do they grow in the plains and not in mountain > regions? I think that there is an article about this, but I don't > remember the details. I should be grateful, if someone could offer > me some help. Dominic Goodall. I do not know the scientific name of this plant (arka) but it is found quite commonly in south India. It has fleshy leaves, which when plucked, cause a white milky liquid to flow from the stem. It is used to worship Shiva and Ganapathi. BTW, Isn't it Ganesh Chaturthi today? This plant's leaves are one of the twenty one varieties of leaves that are liked by Ganesh. But I don't think honey is present in this plant. It is not considered edible. It called JilleDu in Telugu. If you want, I can try to find out the scientific name. I remember the phrase `arka patram pujayAmi' in the Ekavimshati patra puja which is offered to Ganapathi. Also there is the following shloka of Appyya DIkshitar (from his unmatta shatakam): arka droNa prabh.rti kusumairarchanam te vidheyam prApyantena smaraharaphalam mokshasAmrAjyalakshmIh | etajjAnannapi shiva shiva vyarthayan kAlamAtman AtmadrohIkaraNavivasho bhUyasAdhah patAmi || From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Tue Aug 29 12:50:15 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 13:50:15 +0100 Subject: Is honey found in Arka trees? Message-ID: <161227020723.23782.3359729916496048916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following subhaa.sita is often quoted (eg. "Sabara's Bhaa.sya 1.2.4; Yuktidiipikaa ad Saankhyakaarikaa 2; Saardhatri"satikaalottaravrtti ad 8.12; Nyaayavaarttikataatparya.tiikaa ad Nyaayasuutra 1.2.1 etc.): arke cen madhu vindeta kimartham parvata.m vrajet| i.s.tasyaarthasya sampraaptau ko vidvaan yatnam aacaret|| Often Mss give the variant akke for the first word. Apte (and not Monier Williams) defines akka as `[a] corner of a house'; but he cites no instance of its use other than the first paada of the above verse (which he also cites under arka). Does akka occur elsewhere, or is Apte's an ad hoc explanation of a corruption of the word in this verse? Should one assume that arka is correct and that it refers to the tree (?Calotropis Gigantia (Linn) R.Br ex Ait.)? Is honey never found in such trees? Do they grow in the plains and not in mountain regions? I think that there is an article about this, but I don't remember the details. I should be grateful, if someone could offer me some help. Dominic Goodall. From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 29 21:53:51 1995 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 14:53:51 -0700 Subject: Ganesh Message-ID: <161227020734.23782.13693563480255110380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone asked if it is Ganesha Chaturty today. Yes. (at least, according to our panchangam.) Om Sri Mahavinayaga Namaha -sadhu From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue Aug 29 14:19:15 1995 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 15:19:15 +0100 Subject: Comparing Indian business Message-ID: <161227020726.23782.17221319443433463523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 26 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > ...This tallies quite nicely with information I received in 1985, when a > riksha-wallah in Agra told me they made about 30-40 rupees a day. A driver > told me he earned 400 Rs a month. The interesting question is, however: How > much do 40 rupees buy - locally? Does anybody have an idea about how this > translates into food, heating, shelter etc.? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Well, in Calcutta, last December, 40 rupees could buy you at least four street stalls meals. After all in most Indian towns a samosa cost between one and 2 rupees and a long taxi ride is about 10 rs (Indian price...). So obviously the problem is far less the amount, in dollars, earned by individuals, than the amount of things they can buy with it. Francois Quiviger >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 29 1995 Aug EST 10:40:10 Date: 29 Aug 1995 10:40:10 EST Reply-To: THRASHER From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: RE: IS HONEY FOUND IN ARKA A look at the Deccan College dictionary s.v. akka shows several citations of the word, all in the gnomic verse quoted. The variant arke is quoted by the commentators in several. "The corner of a house" (g.rhasamiipe) is given as the gloss of Tattvamiimaa.msaa on Saa.mkhyatattvakaumudii. Commentaries on the other gloss "arke samiipe" without a clear mention of the plant. Calotropis gigantea is a very large milkweed growing to the height of a person. It is poisonous and is used in medicine, tantrism, and toxicology. I see it all over waste grounds in peninsular India. It is a sort of ratty plant, with branches spreading in a random looking unattractive way, with slightly greyish leaves and lavender flowers. I always have thought it looks sinister and would do so even if one didn't know of its toxic qualities. The nearest North American equivalent is Jimson weed, though that grows straight up and several feet taller and is attractive enough to be planted occasionally as an ornamental. Arka is too small and weak to for a honeycomb to have security either from a branch breaking off or to put it out of reach of predators or accidental collisions. I suspect the point of mentioning it in the proverb is that it is a plant that can grow anywhere, springing up wherever no other use is made of the land. You see it on railway embankments and in smashaanas. A glance at the Arya Vaidya Sala's "Indian medicinal plants" (Madras: Orient Longman, 1993, p. 309-313 says "Distribution: Throughout India in dry waste places." The St. Petersburg Lexicon does not give any meaning of arka that would correspond to "neighborhood" or "corner of the house." It does not list akka. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress From francois at sas.ac.uk Tue Aug 29 15:58:23 1995 From: francois at sas.ac.uk (Francois Quiviger) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 16:58:23 +0100 Subject: Pre-Islamic Indian economic history Message-ID: <161227020728.23782.14817785614168010422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A collegue of mine, Paul Taylor (ptaylor at a1.sas.ac.uk>, is organising a seminar on pre-Islamic Indian art next Spring and is looking for someone, if possible based in the U.K., to speak on the economic history of Pre-Islamic India. Can anyone recommend a speaker? Many thanks in advance Francois Quiviger Warburg Institute University of London From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Tue Aug 29 16:40:00 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 17:40:00 +0100 Subject: Connect Magazine Message-ID: <161227020730.23782.2227878166990497715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In case this is of any interest .... Damien Keown -----Forwarded Message------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:06:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Directory of E-Journals Subject: Connect Magazine http://www.connectmag.com/connect/ India's first magazine to go online is proud to present its World Wide Web edition. CONNECT's quality editorial content and groundbreaking design has won it many accolades in India. Now we bring it to you on the Web - as a window into the exciting media and entertainment revolutions gathering momentum in India. We recommend the use of Mozilla (Netscape) version 1.1 or later with this website. Table Of Contents Editorial CONNECT On The Internet By Nyay Bhushan Reality Check Newstorm Ian Anderson's Journey Of A Limetime An exclusive phone interview with Anderson in which he talks about his new album Divinities Martin Barre: Stepping Out An exclusive phone interview with Jethro Tull guitarist Martin Barre who has released his first solo album. His Vision A visual tribute to the magic of Michael Jackson. Stay Tuned Music Reviews She's The Boss Just another day at the office? Not so in Disclosure as man and woman fight it out to see who's really on top. If You've Got Something To Hide, You Need Something To Wear Behind the scenes of Robert Altman's controversial fashion spoof, Ready To Wear or as they say in French, Pret-a-Porter. Run Forrest Run An extraordinary movie gets an extraordinary critique. Video Reviews Hold That Remote By their own admission STARPlus now arrive in the nineties, going all the way to the 24th century. A preview of the new lineup. Natural Born Entertainer An exclusive interview with Monika Deol, the best kept Asian secret in global entertainment. Ready To Wear Designer Poonam Bhogal believes in - believe it or not - making wearable clothes. What India, Inc. can learn from Japan, Inc. Speed Tribes offers a never seen before view of Japan Niyam's Back Page: Desire connect at c2.org From aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Aug 29 21:32:06 1995 From: aparpola at cc.helsinki.fi (Asko H S Parpola) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 00:32:06 +0300 Subject: Is honey found in Arka trees? Message-ID: <161227020732.23782.12900637040049529550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, H. Isaacson wrote: > The following subhaa.sita is often quoted (eg. "Sabara's Bhaa.sya > 1.2.4; Yuktidiipikaa ad Saankhyakaarikaa 2; > Saardhatri"satikaalottaravrtti ad 8.12; > Nyaayavaarttikataatparya.tiikaa ad Nyaayasuutra 1.2.1 etc.): > > arke cen madhu vindeta kimartham parvata.m vrajet| > > i.s.tasyaarthasya sampraaptau ko vidvaan yatnam aacaret|| > > Often Mss give the variant akke for the first word. Apte (and not > Monier Williams) defines akka as `[a] corner of a house'; but he > cites no instance of its use other than the first paada of the above > verse (which he also cites under arka). Does akka occur elsewhere, > or is Apte's an ad hoc explanation of a corruption of the word in > this verse? > > Should one assume that arka is correct and that it refers to the tree > (?Calotropis Gigantia (Linn) R.Br ex Ait.)? Is honey never found in > such trees? Do they grow in the plains and not in mountain regions? > I think that there is an article about this, but I don't remember > the details. I should be grateful, if someone could offer > me some help. > Dominic Goodall. > > The reading akke might stand for arkke, for especially in South Indian scripts r is often a minimal stroke, while the stops are doubled after r. Apart from the verse quoted, I have not come across references to honey in connection with arka, commonly identified with Calotropis gigantea. This large shrub is "common in the plains of Northern India and in the Peninsula...Lower Burma (Kurz). Ceylon. Malay Penins. and Archip." (Dietrich Brandis, Indian trees, London 1906, p. 471). For the Vedic symbolism of arka, see Zatapatha-BrAhmaNa 9,1,1,4;9;42 and 10,3,4,3-5. --- Asko Parpola (E-mail Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi) ---------------------------------------------------------- Department of Asian and African Studies, Univ. of Helsinki From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed Aug 30 12:26:28 1995 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 05:26:28 -0700 Subject: Nationality Message-ID: <161227020740.23782.9578788568504609919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. V. Mirashi's nationality = Indian. If you had in view what region of India he came from, so far as I recall it is Maharashtra. Frank Conlon On Wed, 30 Aug 1995, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Would anyone happen to know the nationality of V. V. Mirashi? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Research Fellow > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > > From ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 30 11:07:21 1995 From: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 11:07:21 +0000 Subject: Is honey found in Arka trees? Message-ID: <161227020736.23782.15474853362949747157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominic Goodall said: > Should one assume that arka is correct and that it refers to the tree > (?Calotropis Gigantia (Linn) R.Br ex Ait.)? Is honey never found in > such trees? Do they grow in the plains and not in mountain regions? > I think that there is an article about this, but I don't remember > the details. I should be grateful, if someone could offer > me some help. Arka can be Calotropis gigantea (Linn.) R. Br. or (rarely) Calotropis procera R. Br. The former is found "distributed throughout India, especially in the south. It is very common on roadsides and in waste places in all plain districts. Also distributed in Sri Lanka, China, and Malaysia." C. procera is more commonly given as the plant for the name alarka, but there is confusion. C. procera is "common in the drier parts of India, [but] it is conspicuously absent in Kerala." Details from Sivarajan and Balachandran, Ayurvedic Drugs and their Plant Sources (New Delhi: Oxford & IBH, 1994). Dominik W. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 30 11:37:41 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 12:37:41 +0100 Subject: Nationality Message-ID: <161227020738.23782.9125888827200813577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone happen to know the nationality of V. V. Mirashi? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu Wed Aug 30 18:25:08 1995 From: MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu (MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 14:25:08 -0400 Subject: Change of affiliation and address Message-ID: <161227020748.23782.12809968023079537895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I have recently joined the Columbia University faculty and thus want to alert you to my new address, phone and e-mail. Mary McGee Associate Professor of Classical Hinduism Department of Religion, Kent 617 Columbia University New York, NY 10027 phone: 212-854-3945 email: mm383 at columbia.edu As I am in the process of moving right now, it may take a week to ten days before I am hooked up to the net again but I'll be back. This information will also be changed on the South Asia Gopher, but I wanted to notify as broad a range of colleagues as possible as I don't have time right now to notify everyone individually. -mm From GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de Wed Aug 30 14:42:21 1995 From: GRUENEN at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de (GRUENENDAHL) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 14:42:21 +0000 Subject: Mirashi Message-ID: <161227020741.23782.6499386154379746347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps this will be of help: Mirashi, Vasudev Vishnu, born 1893 nationality: Indian Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek 37070 Goettingen Germany Phone: 0551/395283 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 30 13:59:24 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 14:59:24 +0100 Subject: Nationality Message-ID: <161227020743.23782.2935932906926062691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >V. V. Mirashi's nationality = Indian. If you had in view what region of >India he came from, so far as I recall it is Maharashtra. Thank you. In my thesis I usually refer to the nationality of people I quote, I think it looks a bit better than just citing a name. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Aug 30 14:00:49 1995 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 15:00:49 +0100 Subject: Mirashi Message-ID: <161227020745.23782.8010321922742714749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Perhaps this will be of help: > >Mirashi, Vasudev Vishnu, born 1893 Thank you! Getting his full name is also useful. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Research Fellow Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From athr at loc.gov Wed Aug 30 19:47:25 1995 From: athr at loc.gov (Allen Thrasher) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 15:47:25 -0400 Subject: correction re arka etc. Message-ID: <161227020752.23782.301879795644713779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forgot to apologize for and correct an error. At least according to my unabridged dictionary Jimson weed is a Datura, not a milkweed. Also, Calotropis is not a "little" shrub, growing to the height of an American male. Lots of things smaller than that count as "trees" in Sanskrit. Allen From vidya at cco.caltech.edu Wed Aug 30 23:42:24 1995 From: vidya at cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 16:42:24 -0700 Subject: request for information Message-ID: <161227020755.23782.12355497299566315053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for some information in answer to the following questions. I would greatly appreciate any help that I can get. Please reply to me by private email at vidya at cco.caltech.edu 1. Are there translations of the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam other than the one by Swami Tapasyananda of the RK Mission, Madras? How about editions of the Skt. original w/o translation? 2. What are the various editions of the AnandagirIya that are available? My current information indicates that there was a Calcutta edition, dating to ~1868, of which there is supposed to be a copy somewhere in the UK. Is this correct? There is also a 1970 edition from the U. of Madras, edited by Dr. Veezhinathan and Dr. TMP Mahadevan. Is there an earlier Kumbhakonam edition of the AnandagirIya? (Dating to the 19th cent.?) 3. What editions are available of the vyAsAchalIya Sankaravijayam? 4. Has anybody published the two commentaries (diNDimA of dhanapati sUrI and advaitarAjyalakshmI of achyutarAya) to the mAdhavIya? Where would manuscripts be available, if they have not been published? 5. Beyond their names, is anything more known about the prAchIna or the br.had Sankaravijayams? Regards, S. Vidyasankar From ISAACSON at let.rug.nl Wed Aug 30 17:00:56 1995 From: ISAACSON at let.rug.nl (H. Isaacson) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 18:00:56 +0100 Subject: honey in arka shrubs? Message-ID: <161227020747.23782.13240321616518592797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks for the various suggestions and elucidations that people have kindly sent me. I am more suspicious than before about the existence of the word akka, since even the Poona dictionary can come up with no other instances of its use than in this subhaa.sita. The various glosses of different commentators rather suggest that they were interpreting an unfamiliar word to suit the context. If, however, arka is really correct, the verse is still puzzling. Is the situation hypothetical? I can hardly imagine that honey could ever be found in the wasteland shrub. On the other hand the contexts in which the verse is usually quoted are about avoiding complicated ways of doing things when much simpler ones actually exist. Perhaps arka really cannot be Calotropis Gigantea (Linn) R.Br. in this context. It also seems to me unlikely that arka is an ugly little shrub in Bhaagavata-Puraa.na X.30.9, where the Gopiis appeal to the Cuuta, Priyaala, Panasa, Asana, Kovidaara, Jambu, ARKA, Bilva, Bakula, Aamra, Kadamba and Niipa trees to reveal where K.r.s.na has disappeared. Dominic Goodall (writing from a friend's account---my own is goodall at vax.ox.ac.uk). From somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk Wed Aug 30 19:28:27 1995 From: somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk (Somdev Vasudeva) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 20:28:27 +0100 Subject: Honey in arka shrubs Message-ID: <161227020750.23782.3057652865203808864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the citation does not refer to honey but to the apparently well-known sweet smell of the arka plant. Cf. for instance the Ga"u.davaho of Vappa"iraaya (Vaakpatiraaja), Verse 535, BSPS 34, from the section describing the charms of the forest: iha viisama"iva hiyaya.m phullakkasamiirasurahigandhesu aavaayagha.diyakamalaamoesu va.nantamaggesu GV 535 (ara.nyavar.nanam) The Nyaaya may thus imply that since a sweet fragrance can be obtained from the common arka shrub there is no need to bother with costly perfumed fragrances acquired from inaccessible mountain regions. But I do not know if any of the arka varieties actually smell pleasant. Somdev Vasudeva From witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Thu Aug 31 01:12:00 1995 From: witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (witzel at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 21:12:00 -0400 Subject: request for info (Sankara) Message-ID: <161227020761.23782.12322052446791494822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a historical and critical evaluation of the various traditions, I suggest to look carefully at Paul Hacker's detailed studies on the Sankara tradition(s), some of them in English: Hacker, Paul Kleine Schriften / Paul Hacker ; hrsg. von Lambert Schmithausen. Wiesbaden : Steiner, 1978 xxi, 916 p. ; 23 cm. ( Glasenapp-Stiftung ; Bd. 15 ) M. Witzel, Harvard U. From D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk Wed Aug 30 21:05:43 1995 From: D.Smith at lancaster.ac.uk (Dr D Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 22:05:43 +0100 Subject: e-mail address for Kenneth Hall? Message-ID: <161227020754.23782.10774728474386761799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An e-mail address for the historian Kenneth Hall? Many thanks. David Smith Dept of Religious Studies Lancaster University Lancaster LA1 4YG UK d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk From phijag at nus.sg Thu Aug 31 00:37:12 1995 From: phijag at nus.sg (phijag at nus.sg) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 08:07:12 +0730 Subject: Krishna's Pearl Message-ID: <161227020757.23782.13656025921576907678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I chanced upon a reference to Krishna asking Radha for a pearl so that he may grow a pearl tree. Could anyone cite a reference for this? I would be most appreciative for any help regarding this. Thank you. John Grimes --- John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS From peterg at icpsr.umich.edu Thu Aug 31 12:23:26 1995 From: peterg at icpsr.umich.edu (Peter Granda) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 08:23:26 -0400 Subject: e-mail address for Kenneth Hall? Message-ID: <161227020768.23782.15811815227673666292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to: > An e-mail address for the historian Kenneth Hall? Many thanks. > David Smith > Dept of Religious Studies > Lancaster University > Lancaster LA1 4YG > UK > d.smith at lancaster.ac.uk > > While I do not know his email address, I do have the following: Department of History Ball State University Muncie, Indiana 47306-0480 phone: 317-285-8700 fax: 317-285-2072 Peter Granda University of Michigan From phijag at nus.sg Thu Aug 31 00:58:34 1995 From: phijag at nus.sg (phijag at nus.sg) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 08:28:34 +0730 Subject: Vidyasankar's info request Message-ID: <161227020759.23782.3033995467772309628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan enquired about Sankaravijayas: 1. The MAdhavAvIya Sankara-dig-vijaya is also published in the Anandasrama Sanskrit Series 2. AnandagirIya Sankara-vijaya (Guru-vijaya or Acharya-vijaya) RIASP, U of Madras, Madras Univ. Philosophical Series, No 16., 1971. -----, Calcutta edition, 1868; Baptist Mission Press, Calcutta 3. VyAsAchalIya Sankaravijaya in Madras Govt. Oriental Manuscript Series, No. 24. 4. See also: Shankar Vijaya Makaranda, S.V. Radhakrishna Sastri (ed) Delhi 1984 for: A compilation in Sanskrit of all the Sankara Vijayas and other sources of life history of Sankara. --- John Grimes, Dept of Philosophy, NUS From KHINCE at vax1.miu.edu Thu Aug 31 14:55:03 1995 From: KHINCE at vax1.miu.edu (KHINCE at vax1.miu.edu) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 09:55:03 -0500 Subject: OCR for Devanagari Message-ID: <161227020770.23782.13775524322329245294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like find out about the current state of the art in using scanners and optical character recognition for getting Devanagari texts into computer format. Information for any platform, e.g. Macintosh, PC, or Unix would be appreciated. Ken Hince khince at miu.edu From somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk Thu Aug 31 09:08:02 1995 From: somdev.vasudeva at oriental-institute.oxford.ac.uk (Somdev Vasudeva) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 10:08:02 +0100 Subject: No honey in thorny sun-plants Message-ID: <161227020765.23782.12615799037164101619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 30 Aug 1995, D.Goodall wrote: > If, however, arka is really correct, the verse is still puzzling. > Is the situation hypothetical? I can hardly imagine that honey > could ever be found in the wasteland shrub. On the other hand the > contexts in which the verse is usually quoted are about avoiding > complicated ways of doing things when much simpler ones actually > exist. There seems little doubt that the situation must be hypothetical. "If honey could be found in mere thorny sun-plants, who would bother seeking it in the mountains". Here is a subhaa.sita which explicitly denies the existence of makaranda in Arka plants: arkaa.h kecana kecid ak.satarava.h kecid dalak.smaaruhaa.h nimbaa.h kecana kecid atra vipine kruuraa.h kariiradrumaa.h maakando makarandatundilamiladbh.r"ngaali"s.r"ngaarita.h ko 'py atraasti na mitra yatra tanute kar.naam.rta.m kokila.h The (thorny) Arka-, Ak.sa-, (bitter) Nimbaa- and harsh Kariira-trees are clearly quite different from the honeydripping Maakanda-mango. Somdev Vasudeva From d.keown at gold.ac.uk Thu Aug 31 10:52:10 1995 From: d.keown at gold.ac.uk (d.keown at gold.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 11:52:10 +0100 Subject: IndiaWorld Headlines Message-ID: <161227020766.23782.3732264113013720274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Forwarded Message------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:33:06 -0300 From: Sam Sternberg To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: NEWS - INDIA - DAILY - English - by mail Item: IndiaWorld Headlines -- News delivered via email Content: Very good summaries available via email as a new service: IndiaWorld Headlines. This is a FREE service, and is broadcast twice a day If you would like to subscribe, send an email message to listserv at indiaworld.com, with the phrase "subscribe headlines" (without the quotes) in the body of the message. The Late News page is updated by 8:30 am (in the morning) and by 10:30 pm (at night) India Time. From kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp Thu Aug 31 12:51:23 1995 From: kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp (kellner at ue.ipc.hiroshima-u.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 12:51:23 +0000 Subject: Saindhavas.raavakas and Tantrayaanists Message-ID: <161227020763.23782.1529876235771439073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anantalal Thakur, in his preface to the Jn.aanas.riimitranibandhaavalii, reports a "deadly quarrel" between the Saindhavas.raavakas and the Tantrayaanists in Bengal, some time (no dates given) around 1000/1100 A.D. He also reports that "it is said" (by whom, he doesn't say) that Jn.aanas.riimitra himself was first a Saindhavas.raavaka and then became a Tantrayaanists. All this strikes me as rather odd, in particular because I do not have the slightest idea what these two expressions referred to (i.e. what the sects or groups denoted by these terms stood for, and what they might have quarreled about). Any ideas or references would, as usual, be greatly appreciated. Birgit Kellner Institute for Indian Philosophy University of Hiroshima >?From P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk 31 95 Aug EDT 09:50:00 Date: 31 Aug 95 09:50:00 EDT From: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Subject: Saindhavas.raavakas Reply-To: P.Friedlander at wellcome.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I came upon references to the 'Saindhavas.raavakas' in stories by Taranatha concerning Bodh Gaya (in a book that I think was called 'The origin of the Tara tradition' translated by David Templeman). They were according to Taranatha SriLankan Buddhists who violently opposed the Tantric Buddhists and, if I remember right, rioted and beat up Tantric Buddhists and tore down images of Tantric deities. Peter Friedlander From lorenzen at colmex.mx Thu Aug 31 22:55:57 1995 From: lorenzen at colmex.mx (David Lorenzen S.) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 16:55:57 -0600 Subject: Learning Bengali Message-ID: <161227020772.23782.5088143282997971401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone recommend a textbook and/or audiovisual materials for an English/Hindi speaker who wants to learn Bengali? Thanks. David Lorenzen lorenzen at colmex.mx