the logic of the argument

[mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk]

Rob Mayer:
>Lance seems to have misread the point of the debate: we
>are not here discussing the relationship of Saiva and
>Buddhist tantra (for which debate his comment is entirely
>correct). We are debating the quite different issue of
>whether Tantra per se arose from a non-Aryan substrate
>or within Brahmanic circles.

I think actually I was assuming that the term brahmanic was not intended to
include Buddhism or at any rate that Buddhist groups or individuals would
not necessarily have the features which would be classified as brahmanic.
This is perhaps arguable.

In any case I don't believe in a non-Aryan substrate. It is not possible to
separate out the origins and sources of things after such a long lapse of
time. Quite obviously one could generate a number of different models,
depending on how many so-called Aryans invaded, whether they came over a
short or a long period of time, whether they were a socially homogenous
group or groups, etc., etc. My suspicion is that:
1. There were probably many different cultures in India when they came and
2. they were themselves culturally diverse.
In other words I see no reason to suppose that the surviving literature
gives a balanced picture of their society.

>Also, whether Tantra is
>such a monolithic "thing" at all, or just a set
>of features of medieval religion that give the appearence
>of a distinctive syndrome.

Isn't this a matter of definition? Clearly it can be defined tightly in
terms of the specific texts called Tantras. At the other end the word
tantra is sometimes used in ways that amount to magic in general. In this
sense it is perfectly possible to talk of tantra as something which occcurs
very widely in human cultures around the world. In between are various
other possibilities, some of them perhaps more useful in many contexts than
either extreme.
I would be perfectly happy to concede that there are no monolithic "things"
at all, just features that give the appearence of a distinctive syndrome.

Lance

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