From cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Thu Sep 1 08:56:18 1994 From: cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 94 10:56:18 +0200 Subject: Only to Deleep Message-ID: <161227017124.23782.6361857464412770709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PLEASE SEND ME A COPY OF THAT BOOK. IF IT IS TOO LONG, PLEASE, DIVIDE IT INTO PARTS, SEND ME SOME AND AFTER I GET IT I WILL REQUEST THE REST. (THIS IS BECAUSE I HAVE SOME DISK QUOTA HERE) P.S. I had sent this to deleep at math.utexas, but it returned to me as with "host unknown". Please, next time write your personal address at the end of such messages so that the requests could be sent only to you. It is very annoying to have ones mailbox full of replies with long message copied and "please send me a copy too" added. Thanks Jakub Cejka cejka at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Fri Sep 2 22:06:31 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 16:06:31 -0600 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227017126.23782.17470127256478288691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the bibliography to "The Sound of Religion", Numen 33/2 (1986), Staal refers to a volume edited by Michel Strickmann called _Classical Asian Rituals and the Theory of Ritual_, Berlin, 1986. I have been unable to trace any such volume. Does anyone have any bibliographic details? Was it published in some Academy's Abhandlung or some such thing? Does it actually exist at all? Thanks for the help. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 2 23:12:51 1994 From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 16:12:51 -0700 Subject: Planets and Horoscopes Message-ID: <161227017128.23782.2731841107985425189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question about casting a horoscope in the Indian astrological system which Kane's History of Dharmasastra and other books on the practicals of casting a horoscope can give me no help on. The question is this: in preparing a chart of the positions of the planets at birth, can a planet inhabit two houses at once? I. e., is it possible for Mars to be in, say, the second house and the seventh house at the same time? If so, what textual documentation is there for this? If not, why not? I tend to think not, but I'll be happy to be corrected. The text I am reading is the Avadhi Candaayan by Maulana Daud, and its resolution depends on the reading of the nayaka's horoscope by a trader disguised as a Brahmin. I think the horoscope is a fake, just like the pandit, but clearly I need a real pandit to tell me whether it is so! I'd be grateful for any help in resolving this crux. Aditya Behl Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, 1203, Dwinelle Hall, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720. Electronic Mail: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Telephone: 1 (510) 642-1610 (O), 843-1264 (R) FAX: 1 (510) 642-3582 From yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp Sat Sep 3 00:44:42 1994 From: yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp (yanom at ksuvx0.kyoto-su.ac.jp) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 94 09:44:42 +0900 Subject: Planets and Horoscopes Message-ID: <161227017130.23782.13958663310028908458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The question is this: in preparing a chart of the positions of the planets >at birth, can a planet inhabit two houses at once? I. e., is it possible >for Mars to be in, say, the second house and the seventh house at the same >time? If so, what textual documentation is there for this? If not, why not? It is utterly impossible for a planet to inhibit in two houses at once. >I tend to think not, but I'll be happy to be corrected. The text I am >reading is the Avadhi Candaayan by Maulana Daud, and its resolution depends >on the reading of the nayaka's horoscope by a trader disguised as a >Brahmin. I think the horoscope is a fake, just like the pandit, but clearly >I need a real pandit to tell me whether it is so! If you send me the horoscope I will check the date and I will tell you whether it is a fake or not. There are many computer programs for astronomy and astrology, but I use my own program based on the Suryasiddhanta. Michio YANO Prof. of Sanskrit and History of Science Kyoto Sangyo University Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 Japan e-mail; yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Mon Sep 5 03:03:04 1994 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand V Raman) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 94 15:03:04 +1200 Subject: Conservation of Nature in Classical India? Message-ID: <161227017131.23782.16576283464994959329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am in search of references/pointers to Nature protection/conservation and ecological awareness in the Classical Age. Was there such a concept at all? Was it warranted in the first place, what with the absence of polluting industries and motor cars etc? I do remember reading that there were protected reserves/Natural resorts and sanctuaries for wild animals during Asoka's time. Is this true? Can someone give me references? Thanks very much. - & (anand) From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Sep 5 05:24:53 1994 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 94 15:24:53 +1000 Subject: Khandhaka of the Vinayapitaka Message-ID: <161227017133.23782.16504074868856493967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A student of our institute is going to write his thesis about the Khandaka of the Vinayapitaka. He would like to know if this text (or for that matter: the whole vinayapitaka) is available in electronic format, and where the text can be obtained. Please send answers to my email account. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 5 21:14:53 1994 From: eclear at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (edeltraud harzer clear) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 94 16:14:53 -0500 Subject: Conservation of Nature in Classical India? Message-ID: <161227017134.23782.9110304011745450757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A reference for sanctuaries for animals during Asoka's and other's time: D.O.Lodrick: Sacred Cows, Sacred PLaces. Origins and Survivals of Animal Homes in India. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1981. Good luck, Edeltraud. From rsalomon at u.washington.edu Tue Sep 6 15:55:30 1994 From: rsalomon at u.washington.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 08:55:30 -0700 Subject: Gyula Wojtilla and Narendra Wagle Message-ID: <161227017142.23782.17130240489902712150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars: I have the following address for G. Wojtilla. It is from about 2 years ago so I suppose it is still valid: G. Wojtilla H-1205 Budapest Pannonia u.3 Hungary On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Does anybody know the email (or snailmail) address of Gyula Wojtilla (I > believe at Budapest University) and Prof. Narendra Wagle at the University > of Toronto? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Lars Martin Fosse > Department of East European > and Oriental Studies > P. O. Box 1030, Blindern > N-0315 OSLO Norway > > Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 > Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 > > E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no > > > From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Mon Sep 5 22:13:13 1994 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand V Raman) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 10:13:13 +1200 Subject: Conservation of Nature in Classical India? Message-ID: <161227017136.23782.890411337145534338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Edeltraud, thanks for the reference. I will follow it up. - & From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Tue Sep 6 03:00:36 1994 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 13:00:36 +1000 Subject: Gyula Wojtilla and Narendra Wagle Message-ID: <161227017140.23782.614610560683972953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the email (or snailmail) address of Gyula Wojtilla (I believe at Budapest University) and Prof. Narendra Wagle at the University of Toronto? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From BRYSON at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU Tue Sep 6 19:04:54 1994 From: BRYSON at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU (Tim Bryson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 14:04:54 -0500 Subject: Hemadri Kosha Message-ID: <161227017144.23782.11636867238307058861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an 1895 letter Vivekananda mentioned that he wanted to invent some rituals for Westerners by referring to "Hemadri Kosha". Does anyone know what precisely he may have been referring to (and whether an edition, preferably in translation, is available somewhere)? Thanks, Tim Bryson (bryson at harvarda.harvard.edu) From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Tue Sep 6 16:48:39 1994 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (BAPAT JB) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 16:48:39 +0000 Subject: Khandhaka of the Vinayapitaka Message-ID: <161227017137.23782.9650446244531250554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Contact Prof. Narendra Wagle at Hitory Dept, University of Toronto Canada re your querry. Mention me and Dr. Rashmi Desai. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mailjbbapat at sci.monash.edu.au Wellington Road Clayton VICTORIA 3168 AUSTRALIA ___________________________________________________________________ From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Tue Sep 6 16:56:55 1994 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (BAPAT JB) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 16:56:55 +0000 Subject: Court society Message-ID: <161227017139.23782.17513249098532113912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for articles, books, references etc. on court society, descriptions of courts, palaces. spatial organization, from Mogul, Rajput, Maratha and Vijaynagar periods. Could someone help? jayant bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mailjbbapat at sci.monash.edu.au Wellington Road Clayton VICTORIA 3168 AUSTRALIA ___________________________________________________________________ From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Sep 7 08:09:59 1994 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 08:09:59 +0000 Subject: jyotish Message-ID: <161227017148.23782.15517548270022681492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste: Recently a question was posted here about astrology. I sent it to a dear friend, Dr. Devananda Tandavan, who is a member of the American Federation of Astrologers. I am simply passing this on for your interest sake, please don't ask me any questions about it, I'm no Vedic astrologer; he is. However, I will pass on any messages, elucidations, etc. Om Namasivaya sadhu ------------- Om Sivaya, Dear Sadhu! This is an interesting horoscope altho' incomplete. In answer to the question: No, Mars can not be in two houses at the same time in the natal or radix chart. That is, it can not be two places in the heavens at the same time. It is conceivable that in a chart cast for near the north pole such a thing could happen, but then it would happen with more than one planet, this would be a peculiarity of the house system being used. The equal house Indian system precludes this from happening. I believe that this is a valid chart and the old jyotishi is saying that when Mars either transits to the second house or moves there by progressions, the object will be obtained. This is a prediction and the second house position is at another time from that of the birth chart. There is another possibility that the second house is in one of the varga charts, but I doubt that this is the meaning of the rather obscure quotation. Will be interesting to find out what this is really all about. Om NAMAISVAYA! Devananda From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Sep 7 00:37:40 1994 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 10:37:40 +1000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017147.23782.18322260117453523637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an email of 7 Sept. 1994 JB Bapat wrote: >While I appreciate that the Aryan invasion theory is now discredited, >I have not been able to find good review material which critically >discusses these issues. I would be interested in knowing more at the discrediting of the Aryan invasion theory. What are its basic conclusions and arguments? Would anybody have bibliographic references? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Wed Sep 7 11:55:00 1994 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (BAPAT JB) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 11:55:00 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017145.23782.3027060003456306208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In connection with my work on Hindu Temple Priests, I am looking for material on the question of the Aryan invasion, feuds between Aryans and Dravidians, the north being Aryan and the south Dravidian etc,etc. The main reason for this is that in my interviews with Brahmin priests in Maharashtra, I heard again and again that" Shiva being a non Aryan deity, we Aryan Brahmins do not worship him with the same devotion". There is thus still a perception amongst northern Brahmins that they are Aryans. While I appreciate that the Aryan invasion theory is now discredited, I have not been able to find good review material which critically discusses these issues. Could someone please help me locate such material. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mailjbbapat at sci.monash.edu.au Wellington Road Clayton VICTORIA 3168 AUSTRALIA ___________________________________________________________________ From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Sep 7 17:59:41 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 11:59:41 -0600 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227017154.23782.197778539176801460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the telephone number (and if it exists email address) of ULRICH PAGEL, who is now curator of the Tibetan collections in the British Library. Or perhaps someone in London can just tell me the general phone number for the British Library, if Pagel's number remains a mystery? With many thanks, in advance, Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Wed Sep 7 16:14:41 1994 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 12:14:41 -0400 Subject: information Message-ID: <161227017150.23782.1270480163311586055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would greatly appreciate names and address of appropriate contacts to obtain materials from the following institutions in India: 1. Royal Asiatic Society, Bombay Branch 2. Oriental Institute, Baroda Many thanks, K.G. Zysk From MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu Wed Sep 7 16:42:31 1994 From: MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu (MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 12:42:31 -0400 Subject: Hemadri Kosha Message-ID: <161227017152.23782.10436200846784157559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sure that Vivekananda must be referring to the encyclopedic dharma- nibandha of Hemadri (13th century minister and archivist of the Yadava kings of Devagiri). Hemadri treated numerous subjects and his nibandha is con- sidered to be the largest; his longest treatment is of vratas, detailing over 900 rituals -- this particular volume would have been a rich source of rituals for Vivekananda. As far as I know, not much of Hemadri has been translated; however, Widener Library has several volumes of this nibandha (known as the Caturvargacintamani) published (in Sanskrit) in the Biblio- theca Indica in the late 1800s. Let me know if you need further information. Mary McGee (mamcgee at vassar.edu). From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Wed Sep 7 13:28:18 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 13:28:18 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017157.23782.8586938733816893282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the past year or so I have been looking into to viewpoints discrediting the Aryan Invasion theory, a la Max Mueller. The works by David Frawley and Subhash Kak among others point to significant inconsistencies in Max Muellers theory of Aryan invasion based primarily on the interpretation of the verses of the Rig Veda. One of the things pointed out by Frawley was that Mueller was a Christian missionary and a creationist, and this was a consideration in his fixing the Aryan invasions to about 1900 BC; This date had to be within 3000 BC as that is when he believed creation came to be ! This does not sound like a sound basis for historical science. Input from liguistics and archeology also does not support Max Muellers view, and casts his scholarship in doubt. One of the interesting alternate theories is that the Harrapa culture was a vedic or proto vedic culture. It was based along the now extint river Sarasvati (Hakkar-Ghagra basin) which ran thru parts of Rajastan to the sea in Gujrat. They have found fire altars suggesting fire worship, and other evidence of vedic culture. The vedic river Saraswati is is most often mentioned in the Rig Veda, and Ganga assumed greater significance after its demise. This does suggest a urbane Harrapa culture with distinct vedic features. I dont think that the entire picture is yet clear, but the cut and dried Aryan invasion theory is cleary inconsistent. I can dig up a few references in a few days if anyone is interested. No doubt more light will be shed on the subject as more work is done. A cursory glance at the historical wastebasket does indeed show it to be full of discarded paradigms ! All the best.. J.B. Sharma Gainesville College From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed Sep 7 21:10:59 1994 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 14:10:59 -0700 Subject: information Message-ID: <161227017159.23782.12455891485652109554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With respect to #1, the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Bombay Branch is now the Asiatic Society of Bombay. The address remains Town Hall, Horniman Circle, Bombay 400001. (the PIN code may be changed). I am not sure whether you are seeking copies of their publications or other sorts of materials, but my 1993-94 Annual Report lists Mrs. Vimal Shah as Honorary Secretary, or, perhaps address a query to The Librarian. Frank Conlon On Wed, 7 Sep 1994 ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU wrote: > I would greatly appreciate names and address of appropriate > contacts to obtain materials from the following institutions > in India: > > 1. Royal Asiatic Society, Bombay Branch > 2. Oriental Institute, Baroda > > Many thanks, > K.G. Zysk > > From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Sep 7 16:57:49 1994 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 16:57:49 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227017156.23782.7469379554468107584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: sadhu at pslrd.castcrew.com (Sadhunathan Nadesan) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 09:57:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: BAPAT JB "Aryans and Dravidians" (Sep 7, 3:15) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: indology Subject: Re: Aryans and Dravidians Content-Type: text Content-Length: 10681 / FROM: BAPAT JB , Sep 7 3:15 1994 | ABOUT: Aryans and Dravidians | | In connection with my work on Hindu Temple Priests, I am looking for | material on the question of the Aryan invasion, feuds between Aryans | and Dravidians, the north being Aryan and the south Dravidian etc,etc. | The main reason for this is that in my interviews with Brahmin priests | in Maharashtra, I heard again and again that" Shiva being a non Aryan | deity, we Aryan Brahmins do not worship him with the same devotion". | There is thus still a perception amongst northern Brahmins that they | are Aryans. | While I appreciate that the Aryan invasion theory is now discredited, | I have not been able to find good review material which critically | discusses these issues. | Could someone please help me locate such material. |---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jayant Bapat | Dr. Bapat: This is not a direct answer to your question, but, indirect. I read an article about an importer of Indian Books, and in the interview, he mentioned the topic of the Aryan invasion. It is possible he can help you. I hesitate to attach the entire article .. as it is a bit long .. but I guess I will take my chances on the flames and go ahead, as other researchers may find the source (book importer) to be of interest too. Namaskars, Sadhunathan Nadesan | | |---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jayant Bap---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: <9409071545.AA28036 at pslvax.castcrew.com> To: sadhu Subject: may_94/South_Asian_Books (complete) ascii X-Server: Squirrel Mail Server Software V3.01B [dorequest 3.28] Request: may_94/South_Asian_Books ------ begin of South_Asian_Books -- ascii -- complete ------ Index: South Asia Books Head: Professor Barrier Ships 3 Tons of Indian Books To US Every Month Subhead: Text: In early February, 1994, New Delhi hosted the largest book fair ever held in India. Here, the first award for promotion of Indian books abroad was given to Prof. N.G. Barrier in recognition of his over 25 years of bringing Indian publications to America and thus improving the understanding between Indians and Americans. The following article on Prof. Barrier and his company, South Asia Books, appeared in the Sunday Times of India. By Saibal Chatterjee When Yahya Khan imposed martial law in Pakistan in the spring of 1969, among the people who were caught unawares was a young American bibliophile. Trapped in Ferozesons Book Store on the Mall in Lahore for several hours, he stumbled upon an assortment of eminently readable Pakistani books, including many tomes on Punjab published by the provincial government. By the end of it, he had found his true calling. "The books were dirt cheap-three to four rupees each. I packed up two trunks although I knew it would be extremely difficult to get the books out of Pakistan. But luck favoured me. Barely 20 minutes before the frontier closed, I managed to slip out of the country, reached India and shipped the books to the US to be sold or circulated among friends and libraries," the tall, sprightly, ponytailed, 54-year-old Professor N. Gerald Barrier recounts, flashing back to the dramatic circumstances in which his career and his company, South Asia Books, were launched. Books have been his business ever since, but Barrier, winner of the first National Book Trust award for the promotion of Indian publications abroad, has never lived life strictly by the book. The calculated risks he has taken in the last quarter of a century to unveil the works of Indian writers and academicians for American readers have been well worth it. Not only have they given him a great sense of satisfaction, they have also fetched him tidy profits in the bargain. Today, South Asia Books is far and away the largest American distributor of Indian books. Barrier's warehouse in Columbia, Missouri, USA, has 6,000 square feet of covered space, over 4,500 titles in active stock and the equivalent of a 3-4 person staff. "We have more books about the subcontinent than you can find in any single Indian bookstore," he says with obvious pride. "The level of penetration of Indian books in the US is quite high. Apart from those who buy books directly from publishers and distributors, there are over 20 libraries which receive almost every Indian publication through the Library of Congress. Besides, more than 500 institutions in the US have courses dealing with Indian studies." Barrier, who received his doctoral degree from Duke University in 1966 and has been teaching at the University of Missouri for 25 years, is convinced that the fears of India being culturally swamped by America are unfounded. "It is a two-way cultural interaction," asserts the scholar-bookseller-publisher who has written or edited eight books and is an authority on Sikh history and Punjab. "The New Age movement in the US is greatly influenced by Indian traditions-Gandhian thought, vegetarianism, ayurveda, yoga and astrology. Nearly 4,000 titles have been published in the US on yoga alone. Most major Indian writers come out in American editions. In fact, they are often first published in the US," he points out. India will, therefore, always continue to exercise a deep influence on the lives of Americans, he feels. "The other important source of contact is the large Indian population in the US," he says. "Their culture is spreading. There are probably more Americans than Indians learning classical Indian dance forms in the US today." Barrier himself speaks Hindi and can read Gurmukhi, but he confesses that "my Hindi has become a bit rusty and I cannot speak or understand Punjabi." When asked about his personal religious beliefs, he confided, "I have my roots in the Christian tradition and almost was a minister, but I became disenchanted with the internal politics and institutional problems. I am rather a humanist at this point, but I believe firmly in life after death and some type of transmigration" Barrier's passion for things Indian dates back to the Hindi language fellowship he had at Duke University for four years. His latest visit to India, essentially to pick up titles at the 11th World Book Fair, is his sixth trip to the subcontinent. Thanks to his avuncular comportment and his laid-back air, he could, if you didn't know him, be mistaken for a Bohemian backpacker hopelessly in love with the wonder that is India. A lot of publishing is going on in the US but people are probably reading much less. And that is causing Barrier a great deal of consternation. "We've become a visual society. Reading is perceived almost as a punishment. There is television, computers and, now, virtual reality," he observes. "Maybe we are going back to an oral tradition, which is primarily an Indian concept." Barrier doesn't see himself as much of a businessman and prefers to leave the market analysis and selling to his staff. But he knows Indian books like the back of his hand. "I can instinctively pick up a book that will sell," he says. His 25-year track record as a cross-cultural connoisseur substantiates his claim like nothing else can. Address: South Asia Books, P.O. Box 502, Columbia, Missouri 65205, USA. Sidebar: Barrier's Bridge to Bharat Text: Over the years, Hinduism Today has received testimony of how easy it is to buy books from India (once unheard-of humbug) through South Asia Books. In a flurry of faxes we asked Professor Barrier to tell us more about himself and his company. Below are his words. The Mission of South Asia Books South Asia Books provides an accessible supply of books and information on publications from India. I serve as a broker for manuscripts, help Indian and American dealers and increasingly sell textbooks into many courses-especially those relating to history and religion. My other goal is to develop a mass market. I do this by warehousing books delivered by large sea-cargos (5,000 pounds every four weeks) and then keeping the prices down. I try to price so that with discounts I get within a reasonable range of the Rupee price. I spend about 20-25 hours a week in my academic profession. I teach Modern Indian history-including courses on Asian and Indian civilization, Gandhi, Nonviolence in Modern World History, and modern religion and political movements in India-head important committees, write and publish. I have written 7 books and numerous articles. The other 35 hours a week goes into the book business. Views of a Veda Vendor In my opinion, books on Hinduism in the US are often too academic. Those from India often have poor quality production and do not answer some of the questions asked by lay people. There is actually a small market here among Indians, who often do not buy either scholarly or popular books. My experience suggests that far more Americans buy books on Hinduism than Indians. The Aryan invasion theories are being totally reworked, whether by textual analysis or good solid archaeology. These works suggest modifications are taking place of earlier ideas either dominated by Westerners or nationalist historians who played up some myths about Aryans. We are now getting to the real story. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright 1994, Himalayan Academy, All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this news report may not be published for commercial purposes without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. (The publisher's request is that the material not be used in magazines or newspapers that are for sale without their permission. Redistribution electronically (for free), photocoping to give to classes or friends, all that is ok.) This copyright notice may NOT be removed, or the articles edited or changed without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. Send letters to the editor to hinduism at mcimail.com [for compuserve, use 73310,1001] For a free three-month trial subscription to Hinduism Today (USA only) send postal address to hinduism at mcimail.com, or write P.O. Box 157, Hanamaulu, Hawaii, 96746. Hinduism Today is published monthly is seven editions: North America, UK/Europe, Malaysia/ASEAN, Africa, Indian Ocean, India and a Dutch Language Digest. For information on subscribing outside the USA, request file "HELP". ------ end of South_Asian_Books -- ascii -- complete ------ From 0005614754 at mcimail.com Wed Sep 7 23:45:00 1994 From: 0005614754 at mcimail.com (Mantra Corporation) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 18:45:00 -0500 Subject: Tibetan Collection Message-ID: <161227017161.23782.10289384808957832097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wrote Jonathan Silk : > I am looking for the telephone number (and if it exists email address) > of ULRICH PAGEL, who is now curator of the Tibetan collections in the > British Library. . . . Perhaps the folks at the World Tibet Network can be of assistance: ------------------- World Tibet Network News ----------------- Published by: The Canada-Tibet Committee Editorial Board: Brian Given Nima Dorjee Conrad Richter Tseten Samdup Submissions to: wtn-l at vm1.mcgill.ca or fax to: +44-71-722-0362 (U.K.) Subscriptions to: listserv at vm1.mcgill.ca - to join, message should be: SUB WTN-L [your name] - to cancel, message should be: SIGNOFF WTN-L ------------------------------------------------------------------- *-=Om Shanti=-* Jai Maharaj jaimaharaj at mcimail.com From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Thu Sep 8 01:19:21 1994 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 94 21:19:21 -0400 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017163.23782.1123720345419203126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Time to discredit the allegedly discredited! Wow! Rosane Rocher. From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Wed Sep 7 23:28:31 1994 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 09:28:31 +1000 Subject: information Message-ID: <161227017168.23782.6139171516005876275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 7.9.94 K.G. Zysk wrote: >I would greatly appreciate names and address of appropriate >contacts to obtain materials from the following institutions >in India: > >1. Royal Asiatic Society, Bombay Branch >2. Oriental Institute, Baroda > Please send these addresses to me too. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Thu Sep 8 09:35:28 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 10:35:28 +0100 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017170.23782.5779236019533619071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Related to the Aryan invasion theory of Maz Mueller and co is the idea that Indian religions can be sensibly divided into "Aryan" and "Non-Aryan" strata; the most persistent product of this outlook is the idea that Tantra is derived from a "non-aryan substratum" and Vaidika religions is derived from the Aryan strata. To my mind, there are serious problems with this theory; I support the views of Madeleine Biardeau and Alexis Sanderson that this is sociologically improbable, not to mention textually disproven. Why is the Atharvaveda not accepted as Aryan by the "non-Aryan" theorists? Surely this is moving the goalposts a little! And tantra is emically an heir to the AV, and etically can be seen to, indeed, share many of its categories and many of its social niches. As a Tibetanist rather than an Indologist, I would dearly love to know what proportion of Indologists subscribe to the "non-Aryan" theory of Tantric origins, and what proportion follow Sanderson, Gombrich, Biardeau et. al. In my field, it is safe to say thar 99% of scholars of Tibetan tantra follow the "non-aryan" view of Tantric origins, so I am interested to understand the prevailing view among the actual professionals in the field. To reinforce the critique of the "non-aryan" theory, we can see that the classic defining vrata of Tantrism, the kaapaalikavrata, is derived from the Dharmashaastras, and Tantric transgressions are an inversion of Brahmanic rules of purity. Likewise, the early Pashupata Suutras are limited to twice-born males etc. None of this looks "non-aryan" to me! Feedback from Indologists on this issue would be very welcome to this Tibetanist. Rob Mayer Research Fellow Theology & Religious Studies University of Kent at Canterbury U.K. From magier at columbia.edu Thu Sep 8 15:44:43 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 11:44:43 -0400 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227017173.23782.181253941655735429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following information was sent to me by a colleague. I thought it might be of use to you all. David Magier --------------- All U.K. telephone and fax numbers are being changed, by the addition of a number 1 before the area code. This means that when dialled from overseas, numbers in London will now become +44 171 nnn nnnn or +44 181 nnn nnnn rather than +44 71 nnn nnnn or +44 81 nnn nnnn. Similarly Liverpool numbers will become +44 151 nnn nnnn, Cambridge numbers +44 1223 etc, and Oxford numbers +44 1865 etc. At the moment the old and the new numbers are said to be interchangeable, but the old ones will go out of use early next year and the new ones will become permanent. Please change your address books accordingly. This is the consequence of the change of the international dialing code for calls made FROM the UK from 010 to the international standard OO (still not in use in the US where it is 011) From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Thu Sep 8 17:46:38 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 11:46:38 -0600 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017175.23782.6858983066973437557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rob Mayer raises several interesting issues which it may be worth bringing to the fore. I am no expert in the Aryan / Non-aryan controversy, and on this list and in this company would even hesitate to call myself an Indologist. But I want to mention something which is more methodological than textual. Mayer seems to suggest that since the Tantric traditions have formulated several (characteristic?) doctrines in terms of -- even if in so-to-say counter-terms of -- Brahmanical doctrines this implies the chronological priority of the latter. I ask him, as a Tibetologist, to consider the case of the Bon tradition. Virtually the entire literature of the tradition, and almost the complete formulation of its thought, is cast in what is obviously Buddhist terms (or again, counter-terms). But there is strong reason to believe nevertheless that the tradition, in some form -- even if this is archaeologically unrecoverable -- indeed pre-dates Buddhism in the Tibetan world. The overwhelming "high" culture of Buddhism provided the model for the formulation of Bon thought, but this is far from proving that Bon is "Buddhist." Such a comparison does not, of course, prove that Tantra is non-Aryan, but it does suggest that simply arguing that Tantric doctrines are formulated in Dharmasastric terms and are therefore inherently and originally of Aryan origin is not a sound way of proceeding. This may or may not be at all relevant to the so-called Aryan invasion theory which has been discussed (or has any discussion actually gotten going?) here over the last few days. But I thought it worthwhile pointing out the trouble I saw in Mayer's suggestions. jonathan silk: silk at ac.grin.edu From phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Sep 8 02:03:08 1994 From: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 14:03:08 +1200 Subject: aryans and dravidians Message-ID: <161227017166.23782.9514519655700400946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I too ran across some similar ideas last year, and posted a query on the South Asian Reflector, asking if there was any good scholarship backing up these ideas. In the end, I only received one answer (unfortunately I can't remember who sent it to me), which included these three items: 1. Renfrew, Coli. Archaeology and Language 2. Parpola, Oscar. 1983. The Pre-Vedic Indian Background of the Srauta Ritual. In Fritz Stahl, ed., Agni: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar. Berkeley: Asia Humanities Press, pp. 41-75 3. "A New View of Ancient India" by Georg Feuerstein, David Frawley and Subhash Kak appeared in the "Yoga Journal" (Berkeley, CA) July/August, 1992. I haven't had the time to follow this up, so I don't know if these items truly are relevant to the debate or not. Nor can I vouch for their scholarly quality, though I do recall that the person who sent them to me was not impressed with the third item. If anyone has any more information, I'd be most interested. Cheers, Bo Sax Head of Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch-I New Zealand Tel. (03) 364-2230 FAX (03) 364-2007 e-mail: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 8 22:21:33 1994 From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 15:21:33 -0700 Subject: Planets and Horsocopes Message-ID: <161227017180.23782.8255810860629415299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you all for the astrological readings of the chart I posted last week. I have now the answer, viz., that it is impossible for one planet to be in two houses simultaneously, although in switching from natal to radix chart it may be possible, or that a planet such as Mars may have its drishti (aspect) towards a house other than the one it inhabits. On the basis of the textual horoscope, no further elucidation is possible; since we do not have the birth-date of the Prince, we cannot check the positions of the planets at that time. So for the purposes of explicating the text I shall accept your interpretations and maintain that it is a valid horoscope. I am grateful for all the help. If anybody is interested in pursuing this any further I can forward my translations of the two Avadhi verses which describe the horoscope. Sincerely, Aditya Behl Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, 1203, Dwinelle Hall, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720. Electronic Mail: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Telephone: 1 (510) 642-1610 (O), 843-1264 (R) FAX: 1 (510) 642-3582 From czm1 at cornell.edu Thu Sep 8 19:31:21 1994 From: czm1 at cornell.edu (czm1 at cornell.edu) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 15:31:21 -0400 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017177.23782.16639399500489685210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Loathe as I am to get into this particular controversy, I would like to make some clarifications. The original question was about the supposed "discredited Aryan invasion theory." What is certainly discredited is the old theory of Wheeler that the Indus civ. was destroyed by invading "Aryans", and that the find on an upper level of Mohenjo Daro of a roomful of skeletons who had received no proper burial was evidence of this "sack." This theory has long ago been exploded, but please note that to say the speakers of Indo-Aryan languages did not invade and demolish the Indus civ.is not the same thing as denying that the Indo-Aryan languages and at least some elements of their associated cultures migrated into South Asia from someplace else, which we suppose because of the findings of historical linguistics. The first two ideas mentioned by Sax, Renfrew's and Parpola's, both suggest that the speakers of Indo-Aryan languages migrated into South Asia in a series of waves. Renfrew argues they arrived very early, bringing settled agriculture with them, I believe. Thus in this picture the "Aryans" become a "kindler, gentler" people. It is a fact that there is not perfect accord between what we know about the arrival of the "Aryans" from historical linguistics and what we know from archaeology. All the same, the speakers of the Indo-Aryan languages are still thought to have at some stage arrived in South Asia from elsewhere. This is far different from the view of the last reference of Sax, which appears to argue a sort of neo-Vedic nationalism, viz. that the Vedas, eternally based in India, are the original culture, from which all other world cultures are developments and of which the "Aryans" as a distinguishable racial group are the original custodians. It is this position which appears to assert that to draw attention to the scanty evidence for a single, violent, "Aryan" invasion is to prove that the "Aryans" have always lived in India. To discredit Max Muller, [who is in any case, not the originator of the invasion theory or the migration theory,] because he is a Christian and therefore incapable of dispassionate rationality, in favor of a view like this, which claims on the contrary to be objective and scientific, appears to me just a little bit disingenuous. And by the way, my physical anthropologist colleagues tell me that there is no archaeological evidence that allows for drawing racial and/or racialist distinctions in the skeletal remains of the pre-historic period in Indus-Ganges region, nor in the later periods for that matter. But the terms need to be defined, and mercifully, that subject is not at all my area. Whether the languages and cultures current in Northern South Asia when the "Aryans" arrived were "Dravidian" is a theory that has been suggested, but not proved, I do not think. But I would be glad to be corrected, Yours, C. Minkowski, Cornell U. From lnelson at teetot.acusd.edu Thu Sep 8 23:34:01 1994 From: lnelson at teetot.acusd.edu (Lance Nelson) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 16:34:01 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017183.23782.16212379924730125058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Sep 1994 R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk wrote: > Bon has its own canon; Tantra accepts all the Veda, > but adds more of its own special elite revelation on top. > It does not have its own canon. Taoism has its own canon. > So Taoism & Bon are separate from Buddhism, but Tantra > simply is a version of Hinduism. No tantrist rejected the > Veda outright. Tantra does not have its own canon? No (Hindu) Tantrist rejected the Veda? Is this true? I hope those who can speak with authority on this will contribute. Lance Nelson U. of San Diego From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Thu Sep 8 23:48:20 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 17:48:20 -0600 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017182.23782.2099454669194691902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a brief clarification re: Rob Mayer's note: The idea that tantra belongs to some unrecoverable and hypothetical pre-Aryan layer, later overlaid by Brahmanical ideology, rhetoric etc. is emphatically NOT "my view." I presented it only as a logical possibility which seemed to have been overlooked in Mayer's first message on the subject. Whether the view is defensible on the basis of evidence I have no idea, and it is not a field in which I have done any research or even reading. I understand RM's distinction between the Bon and Daoist cases and the Tantric one, and this seems to be significant. It also seems to be putting the cart before the proverbial horse, however, to offer as a distinctive difference the "fact" that Bon and Daoism existed before Buddhism, with the implication that Tantrisim did not pre-exist Hinduism. Is not it suggested by some that Tantra in fact existed chronologically prior to, or at least sociologically independently of, Hinduism (even if we take the starting point of this tradition as the Vedas)? I am not qualified to remark on the evidence of these claims; What I wrote about was only the logic of the argument, with which, I trust, RM does not disagree. jonathan silk From 6500isa at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu Fri Sep 9 01:02:06 1994 From: 6500isa at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (6500isa at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 18:02:06 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017185.23782.12120237022469213485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Tantras are texts which are specific to one of the various divisions of Hinduism, i.e. the Saiva Tantras, the Agamas, are considered canonical by Saivas, indeed even on a par with the Vedas, but not held to be so by the Vaisnavas, etc. It seems to me that to speak about Tantra as one thing is to immediately de-problematize a very problematic subject. The salient features of Tantrism seem to be the themes of subtle physiology, sexomagical ritual, and initiation. These themes have been worked out both within and outside of the Vedic framework. The schools of Kashmir Saivism and Sri Vidya consider themselves to be both Vaidika and Tantrika, while the Kapalikas and Aghoras seem to be rather outside the Vedic pale. While certain aspects of Tantrism may resemble certain practices found in the Atharva Veda, the very lateness of the Tantic texts make any direct connection seemingly unlikely. Any thoughts? Ganesh Natarajan From h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Sep 8 19:46:28 1994 From: h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Mizue Sugita) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 19:46:28 +0000 Subject: Oriental Institute Message-ID: <161227017172.23782.16134694502550182486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>1. Royal Asiatic Society, Bombay Branch >>2. Oriental Institute, Baroda > >Please send these addresses to me too. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse With regard to No.2, I sent this address directly to Professor ZYSK. But I will send it again to the Indology network, as it seems that other people need it. Oriental Institute has recently changed their address. The new address is Oriental Institute (M.S.University of Baroda) Opp. Palace Gate, Palace Road, Vadodara 390 001 (Gujarat) India Regarding the the purchase of books, The University Publications Sales Unit General Education Centre, Pratapgunj, Baroda 390 002 Mizue Sugita Email h54251 at sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Thu Sep 8 19:39:22 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 94 20:39:22 +0100 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017178.23782.15852874970666866798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I take Jonathan Silk's point, but what we can say is that Tantra as we have it is Aryan in the sense of Brahmanic. Jonathan Silk's view requires an hypothetical very early Tantra of which no travce remains. Tantra itself claims Aryan or Brahmanic origins. It seems to function sociologically as a part of the Brahmanic ideology. The case of Tibetan Bon is very similar to that of Taoism: in bith these cases, an in indigenous religion did exist prior to Buddhism, but early on began to borrow so heavily from Buddhism that they began to look like mere crypto-Buddhism. Tantra could not be more different: it is NOT a separate religion. It is the most widespread form of Hinduism, worshipping the same gods. Bon has its own canon; Tantra accepts all the Veda, but adds more of its own special elite revelation on top. It does not have its own canon. Taoism has its own canon. So Taoism & Bon are separate from Buddhism, but Tantra simply is a version of Hinduism. No tantrist rejected the Veda outright: they only sought to add to it in the "true" spirit of the Vedic revelation. Or so I see things. More debate, anyone? Rob From ac161 at leo.nmc.edu Fri Sep 9 05:32:47 1994 From: ac161 at leo.nmc.edu (ac161 at leo.nmc.edu) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 01:32:47 -0400 Subject: Def/resources on word LAKHU Message-ID: <161227017187.23782.16334943829625032348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for information and references to the (Hindi?) term: LAKHU. I understand it refers to a birthmark on one side of the nose and indicates some sort of auspiciousness (?). Details, please. Thanks. -- Regards, Greg Ozimek Dearborn (Detroit) Michigan ac161 at LEO.NMC.EDU (Internet) From 0005614754 at mcimail.com Fri Sep 9 13:58:00 1994 From: 0005614754 at mcimail.com (Mantra Corporation) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 08:58:00 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017194.23782.15917768092518692910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On July 28, 1994, one obeserved the following posted on USENET: From: williams at pangea.Stanford.EDU (Tom Williams) Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.geo.geology,soc.culture.indian Subject: Re: Vedic "Saraswati" River Message-ID: <318ucb$lsv at nntp2.Stanford.EDU> In article <316n7l$m0c at charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> hmccullo at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Huston McCulloch) writes: > > Last April, several articles were posted on soc.culture.indian, > containing some remarkable geological claims concerning the Saraswati > River that appears in the Rig Veda. > > According to these articles, quoting work by a David Frawley, recent > Landsat photographs have revealed the ancient presence of a major > river, now mostly dried up and filled in with sand, flowing from the > Punjab > > [I haven't been able to find the Punjabi Saraswati Frawley mentions, > but indeed "Studies from the post-graduate Research Institute of Deccan > College, Pune, and the Central Arid Zone Research Institute (CAZRI), > Jodhapur. Confirmed by use of MSS (multi-spectral scanner) and Landsat > Satellite photography. Note MLBD Newsletter (Delhi, India: Motilal > Banarisidass), Nov. 1989. Also Sriram Sathe, "Gharatiya > Historiography", Itihasa Sankalana Samiti, Hyderabad, India, 1989, pp. > 11-13." This is certainly a reasonable sort of feature to have found and delineated from LANDSAT data. However I couldn't find any references to Frawley's work. This is pretty darned grey literature. I did find three relevant references: 1) Ahmad, F. "Man, environment and geology since 2000 B.C. in Indo-Gangetic Valley." 1989. (INTERNATIONAL GEOLOGICAL CONGRESS, ABSTRACTS--CONGRES GEOLOGIQUE INTERNATIONALE, RESUMES. ; Vol. 28, No. 1, p. 18) 2) Ahmad, F. "Geological evidence bearing on the origin of the Rajasthan Desert (India)." 1986. (PROCEEDINGS OF THE INDIAN NATIONAL SCIENCE ACADEMY, PART A: PHYSICAL SCIENCES ; Vol. 52, No. 6, p. 1285-1306) 3) Murthy, S. R. N. "The Vedic River Saraswati, a myth or fact; a geological approach." Nov. 1980. (INDIAN J. HIST. SCI. ; Vol. 15, No. 2, p. 189-192) > So my question for geologists out there is, is there really such an > ancient river bed in India, and did it dry up circa 1900 BC? > > The archaeological implications of Frawley's claim are also enormous, > since it would indicate that the Rig Veda refers to the situation in > India prior to 1900 BC, which antedates the presumed > Aryan/Indo-Euruopean invasion of India. Finding such a feature on a LANDSAT photo is still a separate issue from showing that 1) the two really are the same river; and 2) it dried up prior to 1900 BC. One key question would be, what did they use to establish this date this precisely. I would expect dendrochronology to be the best tool, assuming they've done some field work; C-14 dating would be a close second. ** AND ** From: jais at bcarh64a.bnr.ca (Jai Singh) Subject: Re: Vedic "Saraswati" River Message-ID: <1994Jul28.144230.24036 at bnr.ca> > there is a minor Saraswati river in Gujarat that comes from the > direction of Rajasthan and sinks into the Lesser Rann of Kutch. It > could be in line with the great river Frawley talks about. It ...this thread is very intriguing indeed! I had an opportunity to visit Vira-vah and Nagar-Parkar, both in Pakistan, just north of the small Rann of Kutch. Although presently there is no city there (only small villages) a walk around Vira-vah is most interesting. There are large ruins of palace like structure and some pretty large temples (also in ruins) overgrown vegetation seems to taking over the temple that I saw. There was a large lake. It had water only when there was heavy rains. The general feeling I got after being there for about 1 year (we were constructing "sand" tracks for the Indian Army after '71 war) that there must have been a river (or canal) around there to sustain this sort of constructed buildings. My guess was that a canal or tributary of Indus flowed thour that region. It is possible that this could have been waters of the River Saraswati if the course of the river was indeed from Punjab to the Rann. I think the achaelogists could benefit by doing research in the Nagar Parkar area. Unfortunately its not very accessible from Pakistan side (no road at that time!) however one could easily drive from Bhuj via the Rann but watch out for rainy season, the Rann is easily "flooded" even with small rainfall. *** END OF POSTINGS *** If there is interest, I will attempt to reproduce more copies of postings from the net. *-=Om Shamti=-* Jai Maharaj 0005614754 at mcimail.com From rcohen at sas.upenn.edu Fri Sep 9 13:08:21 1994 From: rcohen at sas.upenn.edu (rcohen at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 09:08:21 -0400 Subject: Def/resources on word LAKHU Message-ID: <161227017191.23782.4296420248144125207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LAKHU is derivable from Sanskrit lak.sa "mark, sign," related to the word lak.sa.na which carries a similar meaning, often having a positive rather than a negative connotation; refer to the Sanskrit verb root: lak.s- "to mark, indicate, observe," etc. Yours, Richard Cohen South Asia Regional Studies Dept. Univ. of Pennsylvania rcohen at sas.upenn.edu Greg Ozimek wrote: > > > > I am looking for information and references to the (Hindi?) term: > LAKHU. I understand it refers to a birthmark on one side of the > nose and indicates some sort of auspiciousness (?). > > Details, please. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Regards, > > Greg Ozimek Dearborn (Detroit) Michigan > ac161 at LEO.NMC.EDU (Internet) > > From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Fri Sep 9 09:43:12 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 09:43:12 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017193.23782.11745532091966527313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wish to preface this note by the fact that I am not a professional Indologist, and I defer to the other learned sages on the net. Here are some rejoinders to this discussion.. In reference to Chris Minkowski's note, I do wish to point out that a belief that the world was created in 3000 BC would compel a person to chronologies within that limit. I disavow the extrapolation that being Christian excludes rationalality; I meant no more than Muellers functioning under a limited vision of physical reality (typical of all folks of the time). Max Mueller remains a primary systemitizer of the picture of ancient India, and even though the picture is being reformulated. His views have therefore have had an impact on contemporary culture and polity in India, and overturning of his scholarship is non-trivial. Equivalently, the new picture which will emerge as an intersection set of many disciplines like linguistics, archeology, remote sensing, genetics etc will also have a powerful impact on the future culture and polity of India. It seems to me that at best we can only look at a spectrum of possibilities, some very much more likely than others. I do believe that neo-vedic nationalism belongs to a section of people who need to believe this to feel good about themselves; It does not have a place in historical science. A comment on Rob Mayer's note on wether Tantra has Aryan origins or not; From my study of the subject, I do believe that Tantra has Aryan origins, but is not exclusive to it. Taoism, Zen, Ancient Celtic religion and various other traditions have strong Tantric elements in them. I believe that this is so as Tantra addresses the common human condition seen by sages of all cultures. It is my opinion that Buddha cut thru the Brahmanic exclusivism which had developed over centuries, and pointed out moksha was availible to all and the starting point of the journey is from where we are. Buddha was a great Tantric in the sense of his rejection of dogma, and emphasis on sincere personal experimentation and observation to find the self. His teachings however are in accordance with the vedic/upanishadic essence of "neti-neti". J.B. Bapat made a point about Shiva being a non-aryan diety. Is there someone on the net who knows more about this? I do know about the vedic precursor of Shiva being Rudra. On a related note, I was very struck by the similarity of the Shiva like figure on the "Gundestrup Cauldron" (ancient eastern Celtic art, found in Denmark), and the Indus vally seals depicting once more a Shiva like figure, surounded by forest animals etc. Has any scholarship been done on this? All the best.. J.B. Sharma From BRYSON at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU Fri Sep 9 17:00:50 1994 From: BRYSON at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU (Tim Bryson) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 12:00:50 -0500 Subject: Hemadri Kosha Message-ID: <161227017196.23782.12500652444448613246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mary, thank you. Your response was the most detailed of those I received. I'll take a look at what Widener has. Tim From hsa01dk at goldsmiths.ac.uk Fri Sep 9 12:27:44 1994 From: hsa01dk at goldsmiths.ac.uk (hsa01dk at goldsmiths.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 13:27:44 +0100 Subject: JBE Call for Papers Message-ID: <161227017189.23782.13062334218591756722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CALL FOR PAPERS JOURNAL OF BUDDHIST ETHICS (ISSN: 1076-9005) The newly established Journal of Buddhist Ethics is pleased to announce its very first CALL FOR PAPERS. GENERAL EDITORS: Damien Keown, University of London, Goldsmiths Charles S. Prebish, Pennsylvania State University TECHNICAL EDITOR: Wayne Husted, Pennsylvania State University EDITORIAL BOARD: Masao Abe, Nara University (Emeritus) George Bond, Northwestern University David Chappell, University of Hawaii Richard Gombrich, Oxford University Charles Hallisey, Harvard University Richard Hayes, McGill University Christopher Ives, University of Puget Sound Leslie Kawamura, University of Calgary Winston King, Vanderbilt University (Emeritus) Reginald Ray, University of Colorado Robert Thurman, Columbia University Paul Williams, University of Bristol The Journal of Buddhist Ethics has been established to promote the study of Buddhist ethics through the publication of research papers, discussion articles, bulletins, and reviews. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics is the first academic journal dedicated entirely to Buddhist ethics, and is innovative in adopting a totally electronic mode of publication. Research papers and discussion articles submitted to the journal will be subject to blind peer review. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics interprets "ethics" as including subject matter in the ten areas listed below. Upon request, the editors will offer consultation to authors on the appropriateness of potential submissions. Vinaya and Jurisprudence Research into all aspects of Buddhist monastic discipline. The origins and development of the Vinaya; its categories, structure, and organization; provisions on specific matters; comparative studies of the Vinayas of different schools; legal and jurisprudential principles. Medical Ethics Issues in contemporary medical ethics and biotechnology; abortion, embryo research, reproductive technologies (IVF, AID etc) and genetic engineering; AIDS; organ transplants; resource allocation; informed consent; coma patients and the persistent vegetative state; criminal and medical law; suicide; defining death; terminal care and euthanasia; state medicine and health policy. Philosophical Ethics Theories of ethics and metaethics; patterns of justification; teleological, deontological, and consequentialist theories; situation ethics; the quality of life; the value of life; personhood; ethics and human good; natural law; the status of moral norms; moral absolutes; "skilful means;" moral obligations; altruism and compassion. Human Rights The Buddhist basis for a doctrine of human rights and its provisions; the concept of "rights" in Buddhism; fundamental rights of individuals; autonomy and self-determination; human dignity; equality; justice; freedom; privacy; the protection of rights; women's rights; international codes, charters, and declarations; human rights abuses in Buddhist cultures. Ethics and Psychology The relationship between psychology and moral conduct; the psychology of moral judgments; the analysis of ethical terminology in the Abhidharma and elsewhere; the concepts of motive, intention, will, virtue, and character; the emotions; desire; love; moral choice and self-determination; related issues in philosophical psychology. Ecology, Animals and the Environment Responsibilities and obligations toward nature; animal rights; the moral status of animals and non-sentient life; experimentation on animals; philosophy of biology; speciesism; evolution; future generations; the relationship between Buddhist and other environmental philosophies. Social and Political Philosophy The Buddhist blueprint for a just society; the nature and role of the state; rights and duties of governments and citizens; democracy and alternative political systems; socialism, communism and capitalism; social, educational and welfare provisions; Buddhist law; law and ethics; Buddhism and war; nuclear warfare; revolution; capital punishment; justifiable killing; pacifism. Ethics and Anthropology Ethics in practice in Buddhist societies; ethics and social mores; the influence of indigenous customs and attitudes on moral teachings; rites de passage; variation in marriage and other customs; the great tradition and the little tradition; moral relativism; cultural pluralism. Cross-cultural Ethics Buddhism and comparative religious ethics; methodologies for the study of Buddhist ethics. Interfaith Dialogue Similarities and differences between Buddhism and other world religions in the field of ethics; the basis for dialogue; ethics and metaphysics; hermeneutics and the derivation of moral norms from scripture. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics publishes material in the following four categories: 1) Research Papers (5,000 words and over) 2) Discussion Articles (2,000 words or less) 3) Bulletins (1,000 words or less). 4) Book Reviews Authors should send submissions directly to either of the General Editors at the addresses listed below: Dr. Damien Keown Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths' College London SE14 6NW United Kingdom Internet e-mail: hsa01dk at scorpio.goldsmiths.ac.uk or Professor Charles S. Prebish The Pennsylvania State University Religious Studies Program 108 Weaver Building University Park, Pennsylvania 16802-5500 U.S.A. Internet e-mail: csp1 at psuvm.psu.edu The journal's procedures are designed to make the submission of material as simple as possible. Any questions regarding submissions may be sent directly to the General Editors. Submissions of all kinds be sent either electronically or through the normal postal service on computer diskette (DOS-formatted 5.25" or 3.5" disks) to. To make a submission, follow these three steps: A. After preparing your article, save it in a popular word- processing format such as WordPerfect or Microsoft Word. Do not worry unduly about diacriticals at this stage. If your article is accepted, the editors will contact you with information about how these should be shown in the published text. B. Save a second copy of the article as an ASCII file, using the extension *.txt (for example, Myfile.txt). The option to save in ASCII format will normally be found under "Save As. . ." on your word-processor's "File" menu. C. Send both files to the journal. Submissions to the journal on diskette will not be returned unless accompanied by a self-addressed stamped envelope or mailer. The Journal of Buddhist Ethics cannot be held responsible for loss of or damage to unsolicited material. Accompanying Information 1. Details of Submission Each submission should contain a header describing: a) Category of submission: Research Paper, Discussion Article, Bulletin, or Review. b) Title: Title of Submission c) Author(s): A.N. Author d) Word length: 6,500 words e) Date of submission: 1 November 1994 f) Address: Name of Institution Name of Department Full Postal Address E-Mail Address Telephone Number 2. Abstract For Research Papers and Discussion Articles ONLY, please include an outline of the subject matter not exceeding 150 words in length. The editors welcome your questions, comments, and suggestions. Please feel free to send e-mail to the following address: jbe-ed at psu.edu ************************************************* Damien Keown hsa01dk at gold.ac.uk Department of Historical & Cultural Studies University of London, Goldsmiths London UK, SE14 6NW Voice (+44) 071 692 7171 Ext.2153 Fax: (+44) 071 694 8911 ************************************************* From dileep at math.utexas.edu Sat Sep 10 18:33:40 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 94 13:33:40 -0500 Subject: Address of Prof Judy Saltmann Message-ID: <161227017198.23782.11874497061916382706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I need the address of Prof. Judy Saltmann, who according to the limited information I have, is in the Dept. of Philosophy at "Cal. Poly." I will be grateful for any information which will help me get in touch with her, Thank You, Dileep S Karanth From dileep at math.utexas.edu Sat Sep 10 19:26:32 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 94 14:26:32 -0500 Subject: Info Needed....... (fwd) Message-ID: <161227017199.23782.4384934875082283338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, I need to help a friend answer this question--- Could anybody tell me where K. Badrinath's review, Romila Thapar's book 'Cultural Transaction and early India`, was published? Will somebody please help ? Thanks a lot Dileep S karanth From z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Sun Sep 11 18:28:54 1994 From: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya Mishra) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 94 14:28:54 -0400 Subject: Def/resources on word LAKHU Message-ID: <161227017201.23782.15949488882782047733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I assume it means 100,000 (lakh). - Aditya Mishra Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 (Please leave message) email: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us PRODIGY: TVDS96A On Fri, 9 Sep 1994, Greg Ozimek wrote: > > > I am looking for information and references to the (Hindi?) term: > LAKHU. I understand it refers to a birthmark on one side of the > nose and indicates some sort of auspiciousness (?). > > Details, please. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Regards, > > Greg Ozimek Dearborn (Detroit) Michigan > ac161 at LEO.NMC.EDU (Internet) > > From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Mon Sep 12 16:28:57 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 17:28:57 +0100 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017203.23782.1785750330504315799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk is of course quite correct: it is not logically impossible that Tantra pre-existed Hinduism. All I am saying is that while Bon and Taoism maintained their distinctive canons, deities and distinct social existence, Tantra never left any trace as an independent religion. It only exists as Hindu, Buddhist or Jain tantra, not as Tantra in itself. So many people have inferred that it is a tendency in Indian religion, not a separate religion like Bon or Taoism. But I must take issue with Jonathan: tantra emerges pretty late in Indian religion if we stick to hard evidence rather than speculation. Of course, there is no logical reason why it could not be as old or older than the Vedas. But the evidence we have is late, and most tantra only really gets into full swing in medieval times. So there is a lot to be said for looking at it as atendency within Indian religious culture, not as a separate ancient faith like Taoism. Perhaps the most comprehensive survey of Tantric literature written so far is the volume by Teun Goudriaan and Sanjukta Gupta, entitled Hindu Tantric and Sakta Literature, published in 1981 in the "orange series" edited by Jan Gonda. Goudriaan sums up his massive survey of tantric literature as follows: The early development of (tantric) literature was probably due to the need among Saiva religious thinkers for formulation.... of esoteric truths...It was not based upon a popular movement, but was the outgrowth of the specialistic functionaries from the upper classes, as a rule Brahmans. The last sentence is very significant. Goudriaan's outlook is shared by Alexis Sanderson, now Professor of Sanskrit at All Soul's, Oxford (he recently won Bimal Matilal's old chair, the Spalding Chair). This is significant because Sanderson has dedicated the greater part of his professional life to reading Sanskrit tantric texts with a view to understanding problems of origins rather than metaphysics. So his even firmer insistence than Goudriaan's on Brahmanic origins in the not-so-distant past must carry some weight. The reason I have tried to open this debate is that while I am primarily a Tibetanist existing in a field where Sanderson's views have simply never been heard of, my knowledge of Tantrism comes precisely from Goudriaan, Gupta, Sanderson, Gombrich, Biardeau, etc; all of whom are unread by Tibetan experts on Tantra. Hence, for example, Geoffrey Samuel's recent masterpiece "Civilized Shamans" proceeds as though the views of Goudriaan et. al. never existed. My wish is to create dialogue between the likes of Samuel and Sanderson, to connect up the two quite separate areas of my intellectual life. From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Mon Sep 12 17:01:10 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 18:01:10 +0100 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017204.23782.3568843890230716926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesh's comments are very useful. Tantrism does not exist per se, but as a style of some other tradition, eg Saiva, Bauddha,etc. I agree that we are talking about themes of subtle physiology, initiation, etc, not about a separate religious tradition. These themes became important at a cetain time in India and many different traditions took them up in their own way. The connection with the AV is surely not direct, but many AV categories resurface in Tantric literature, so much so that Goudriaan devotes a whole chapter to this, if I remeber rightly. There are interesting sociological parallels between the AV and Tantra: both are connected with power and the Purohit, both are seen with some ambivalence by the pure and the conventional priests. The Tantric lineages claimed AV connections, but direct historical continuity seems unlikely, as far as I know. More a strategy of legitimation? What fascinates me is how the AV and the tantras both combine pragmatic magic with the deepest metaphysics. In general, I feel the tantras can claim some degree of descent from the spiritual legacy of the AV, even if no direct historical descent. Rob From wfinley at vt.edu Tue Sep 13 02:57:36 1994 From: wfinley at vt.edu (wfinley at vt.edu) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 21:57:36 -0500 Subject: Mountaineering Message-ID: <161227017207.23782.1296390102206797685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a senior at Virginia Tech located in Blacksburg Va and am taking a "Religion and Culture in India" class. For this class I will be writing a term paper on the effects of mountaineering on the religion and culture of India. If someone could send me information on books or articles availabe on this subject it would be much appreciated. William Finley 509C Progress St. Blacksburg Va. 24060 From sponberg at selway.umt.edu Tue Sep 13 04:58:53 1994 From: sponberg at selway.umt.edu (Alan Sponberg) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 22:58:53 -0600 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017209.23782.15900588747217833998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you provide a reference to Samuels "Civilized Shamans"? Thanks, Alan Sponberg ************************************* Alan Sponberg, Professor of Asian Philosophy and Religion Asian Studies Program, Arts & Sciences Bldg. University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 E-mail: sponberg at selway.umt.edu Ph: (406) 243-2803 FAX: (406) 243-4076 From phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Sep 12 21:43:33 1994 From: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 09:43:33 +1200 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017206.23782.8397504361332607299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please have a look at Douglas Brooks, the Secret of the Three Cities, for Brahmanical origins of Tantra. Also some other recent works and translations. Brooks is a sadhaka (and my best friend). He can be reached at dbrk at uhura.cc.rochester.edu Bo Sax Head of Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch-I New Zealand Tel. (03) 364-2230 FAX (03) 364-2007 e-mail: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz From magier at columbia.edu Tue Sep 13 13:56:41 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 09:56:41 -0400 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017215.23782.16170788893114789973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Could you provide a reference to Samuels "Civilized Shamans"? > > Thanks, Alan Sponberg Author: Samuel, Geoffrey. Title: Civilized shamans : Buddhism in Tibetan societies / Geoffrey Samuel. Published: Washington DC : Smithsonian Institution Press, 1993. Description: x, 725 p. : maps ; 24 cm. LC Subjects: Buddhism--China--Tibet. Tibet (China)--Religion. Notes: Includes bibliographical references (p. 635-692) and index. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ____________________________ 304 International Affairs /// -- David Magier -- \\\ Columbia University ||| Director, AREA STUDIES ||| New York, N.Y. 10027-7296 ||| S&SE Asia, Latin America, ||| 212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-2495 \\\ Mid-East, Slavic, Africa /// --------------------------- magier at columbia.edu From suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com Tue Sep 13 14:14:49 1994 From: suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com (suresh at bocaraton.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 10:14:49 -0400 Subject: Mountaineering Message-ID: <161227017217.23782.9888735522953992422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am a senior at Virginia Tech located in Blacksburg Va and am taking a > "Religion and Culture in India" class. For this class I will be writing a > term paper on the effects of mountaineering on the religion and culture of > India. If someone could send me information on books or articles availabe > on this subject it would be much appreciated. > William Finley > 509C Progress St. > Blacksburg Va. 24060 If you could separate the signal from all the cacaphonous noise I would suggest you to read the soc.culture.indian usenet newsgroup to understand the "Religion and culture in India". If you already know about this group then disregard this note. I usually don't have the habit of saving the articles from usenet groups, but there were very good articles are posted from time to time on the topic of your interest. Hope this info is helpful! Regards, Suresh. -- Suresh Kolichala e-mail: suresh at gator.bocaraton.ibm.com IBM, Boca Raton (On assignment with IBM) Phone: (407)-443-6585 =============================================================================== furthermore, the gap between theory and practice in practice is much larger than the gap between theory and practice in theory =============================================================================== From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Sep 13 17:35:58 1994 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 10:35:58 -0700 Subject: Court society Message-ID: <161227017219.23782.13875365013768615276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 6 Sep 94, there was the following inquiry by Dr. J.B. Bapat: "I am looking for articles, books, references etc. on court society, descriptions of courts, palaces. spatial organization, from Mogul, Rajput, Maratha and Vijaynagar periods. Could someone help?" I have in my modest collection of art books the following, none of which I think is rare: Edwards, Michael. 1969. Indian Temples and Palaces. London, New York, Sydney, Toronto: Paul Hamlyn.Great Buildings of the World series. Has a short bibilography for further reading at the end. Nakagawa, Tsuyoshi.1973. India. Bombay etc: Allied Publishers. Vol. 39 in This Beautiful World series. Has a chapter on sultans and rajahs. Gutman, Judith Mara. 1982. Through Indian Eyes. New York: Oxford Univ. Press. Intl' Centre of Photography. Many pictures of court life. The best source materials for this sort of research, however, would come from the many museums established in the capitols of former princely states. The ones in Bhuj, Mysore, Bikaner, Hyderabad ... Ashok Aklujkar, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2. Tel: O: (604) 822-5185, R: (604) 274-5353. Fax O: 822-8937. E-mail: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Tue Sep 13 17:42:01 1994 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 10:42:01 -0700 Subject: Court society II Message-ID: <161227017222.23782.13215019959149340772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My wife, Dr. Vidyut Aklujkar, suggests the following addition to the bibliography I recently posted: Patnaik, Naveen. 1985. A Second Paradise: Indian Courtly life, 1590-1947. New York: Dobleday Company. From mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca Tue Sep 13 19:29:57 1994 From: mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca (mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 15:29:57 -0400 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017227.23782.13186647464296773767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Could you provide a reference to Samuels "Civilized Shamans"? > > Thanks, Alan Sponberg > Geoffrey Samuel. Civilized shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan Societies. Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1993. Mitchell Weiss mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca From GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp Tue Sep 13 18:47:00 1994 From: GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp (=?utf-8?B?5byl5rC45L+h576O?=) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 18:47:00 +0000 Subject: Hobogirin 7 now published! Message-ID: <161227017211.23782.15077999318203287884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, (Apologies for any cross-posting) I am very glad to announce you the publication of a new volume of _Hobogirin_, "dictionary of Sino-Japanese Buddhist terms in French". The new volume, 7th, has been published in Paris a month ago (August 12, 1994), but I received it just today (Sept. 12, 94). Here is the Table of Contents of the volume : Daijoo, Mahaayaana. by Hubert DURT p. 767 Daijuku, Vicarious suffering. H. DURT p. 803 Daikai, Ocean H. DURT p. 817 Daikichijoo daimyoo Mahaa'srii mahaalak.smii (esoteric form of 'Srii Lak.smii) by Robert DUQUENNE p. 835 Daikokuten, Mahaakaala by Nobumi IYANAGA p. 839 Daimoku, Title of the Lotus Sutra by Gero JENNER p. 921 Daimyoo-byakushin (bosatsu) Mahaavidyaa Gaurii R. DUQUENNE p. 925 Dairaku, Mahaasukhaa by Ian ASTLEY p. 931 (This article is in English) Dairiki daigo myoohi Mahaabala-mahaarak.sa-vidyaraj~nii R. DUQUENNE p. 947 Dairiki kongoo, Mahaabala-vajra R. DUQUENNE p. 955 Dairin, Mahaacakra R. DUQUENNE p. 963 Daiseishi (bosatsu) Mahaasthaama-praapta (bodhisattva) H. DURT p. 993 Daishi, Great Master By Antonino FORTE p. 1019 There are only 13 articles in all ; but I would say that all are very important and interesting... The diffusion of _Hobogirin_ is assured in Asia area by Maison Franco-Japonaise, 3, 2-chome, Surugadai, Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, Japan, and in Europe and America area by Librairie d'Amerique et d'Orient, Adrien-Maisonneuve, Jean Maisonneuve, succ., 11, rue Saint-Sulpice, 75006, Paris, France. If you have difficulties to purchase it, you can contact : Ecole Fran,caise d'Extr^eme-Orient, Section de Kyoto, 602 Kyoto, Kamikyo-ku, Shokoku-ji, Rinko-in, Japan. Let me take this opportunity to ask you 1. If you know the existence of _Hobogirin_? 2. If you use _Hobogirin_...? How often...? 3. If you know its existence and if you don't use it, why...? I would like also to hear all your impressions, your critics, etc. about this new volume of _Hobogirin_. Please send me your e-mails to: n-iyanag at cc.win.or.jp or to : GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp Thank you in advance ! Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Wed Sep 14 02:47:15 1994 From: dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (dom) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 21:47:15 -0500 Subject: Ulrich Pagel's phone number. Message-ID: <161227017246.23782.14976522375770789975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 11:59:41 -0600 > From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (Jonathan Silk) > > I am looking for the telephone number (and if it exists email address) of > ULRICH PAGEL, who is now curator of the Tibetan collections in the British > Library. Or perhaps someone in London can just tell me the general phone > number for the British Library, if Pagel's number remains a mystery? Ulrich Pagel's phone number is +44 71 412 7819. The general number for the British Library is +44 71 636 1544. FAX: +44 71 412 7641. Some other useful BL numbers: Jerry Losty (Indian paintings): +44 71 412 7856 Michael O'Keefe (Sanskrit, Pali books & MSS) +44 71 412 7654 Graham Shaw (Keeper (?) Oriental section) +44 71 412 7838 And at the British Museum: Oriental Antiquities main office: +44 71 323 8416 Joe Cribb (Numismatics): +44 71 323 8585 Bob Knox (Amaravati; archaeology): +44 71 323 8359 Richard Blurton (Hinduism etc.): +44 71 323 8274 And while I'm on my "B" page: Bodleian Library (Oxford, OX1 3BG): +44 865 277000 Balliol College (Richard Gombrich): +44 865 277777 Blackwell's Bookshop: +44 865 792792 I'll spare you Borland UK and British Rail, Paddington! Dominik From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Tue Sep 13 22:44:39 1994 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 22:44:39 +0000 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017229.23782.13405134239797437856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rob Mayer: >Perhaps the most comprehensive survey of Tantric >literature written so far is the volume by >Teun Goudriaan and Sanjukta Gupta, entitled >Hindu Tantric and Sakta Literature, published >in 1981 in the "orange series" edited by >Jan Gonda. Goudriaan sums up his massive >survey of tantric literature as follows: > >The early development of (tantric) literature >was probably due to the need among Saiva >religious thinkers for formulation.... >of esoteric truths...It was not based upon >a popular movement, but was the outgrowth >of the specialistic functionaries from >the upper classes, as a rule Brahmans. > >The last sentence is very significant. Goudriaan's >outlook is shared by Alexis Sanderson, now Professor >of Sanskrit at All Soul's, Oxford (he recently >won Bimal Matilal's old chair, the Spalding Chair). >This is significant because Sanderson has dedicated >the greater part of his professional life to >reading Sanskrit tantric texts with a view to >understanding problems of origins rather than >metaphysics. So his even firmer insistence >than Goudriaan's on Brahmanic origins in the >not-so-distant past must carry some weight. My impression is that Sanderson's arguments are decisive for the later phases of Buddhist tantra which are clearly borrowed wholesale from Shaiva sources (but their underlying philosophy is massively modified). I am not sure that this is really proven for the earlier phases. Lance Cousins MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 From GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp Wed Sep 14 02:42:00 1994 From: GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp (=?utf-8?B?5byl5rC45L+h576O?=) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 02:42:00 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017224.23782.2545652562353821243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been most interested by all this discussion about the "discredited theory" of Aryan invasion and the origin of Tantra, etc. Although I am not an Indologist at all (I am a scholar of the Buddhism and the field of my interest is rather the Chinese and Japanese Buddhism), I am interested by these problems, and would like to hear more opinions from the specialists of Indology. 1. I think that there is (or perhaps *was*) a well-established theory that pretends to explain all the history of Indian religion as a history of a struggle between Aryan (or Indo-European) power and Dravidian (or autochthon) power (perhaps this theory is now "discredited" ?). The main argument of this theory is very simple : at the starting point, there was an autochthon culture in India (the civilization of Indus...~ the Dravidians ?), of Asian or "Austro-Asian" (?) origin, and then, there was the invasion of Aryans, of Indo-European origin, who bore the Vedic religion, and drove the Dravidians out towards the Southern part of India... ; but the Dravidians regained power, and the long struggle between Aryans and Dravidians started... The Brahmanical orthodoxy remains still mainly Aryan, but the devotional Hinduism is "more Dravidian", all the Tantric movements are the last form of the final victory of the Dravidian power, which ended in absorbing all the Aryan power in India, etc. (I simplify purposely, to clarify the argument). In this theory, the Aryan tendency represents the masculinity, the rationality, etc., and the Dravidian tendency represents the femininity, the emotionality, etc. I think that this theory is a form of Occidental "Orientalism" and can no longer be maintained. Nevertheless, the Japanese Buddhology continues (or continued until very recently) to adopt partially these views : for the Japanese Buddhology, this is the Buddhism, and especially the Mahaayaana Buddhist philosophy that is (*must be*) the greatest achievement of the Indian culture, and this is why the same Mahaayaana Buddhist philosophy must be the most rational (and "Aryan" ?) part of the Indian culture. Anyway, the disappearing of the Buddhism from the Indian Continent is explained as having been absorbed by the ambient Hindu Tantrism (which is perhaps true...), and as a consequence of the victory of the non-rational ("Dravidian ?) power in the Indian culture... This seems to me as a very interesting phenomenon of an "Oriental form of the Orientalism". So, I have been most struck by seeing that some Indian Brahmin priests adopt also a similar "Oriental form of the Orientalism" in saying that "Shiva being a non Aryan deity, we Aryan Brahmins do not worship him with the same devotion" (as wrote Jayant.B.BAPAT at the beginning of this thread). 2. I don't know if the problem of the historical origin of the Tantrism is so important ; anyway, it seems to me of little interest to speculate about some original form of Tantrism of which we have no evidence... I read some books of Madelaine Biardeau (_Clefs pour la Pensee Hindoue_, 1972 ; _Le Sacrifice dans l'Inde ancienne_, 1976 [with Ch. Malamoud]), and have been most impressed (and influenced) by her views. Her starting hypothesis is the "unity of the religion of the Hindus" ; she attempts to explain all the history of Hindu religion as a development of some *internal* forces or tendencies that were contained in the sacrificial religion of the Vedism (or the Brahmanical orthodoxy) ; her method is at the same time structural and historical. I think that her theory is in some degree based on the sociological works of Louis Dumont (_Homo Hierarchicus_ [1966], and especially the very important essay "Le renoncement dans les religions de l'Inde" included in this book [there is an important chapter on the Tantrism in this essay]). I would like to know what the professional Indologists think today about these works (of Biardeau and Dumont). 3. As a student of the Buddhism, I am very interested in the relation between Buddhism and Hinduism. I am deeply convinced that the Buddhism must be studied above all as *one of the many* Indian religions (though certainly a heretical one from the point of view of the Hindu orthodoxy). I am especially interested in the relationship between the Hindu and Buddhist mythologies. Many aspects of the Buddhist mythology must be explained by reference to the Hindu mythology ; for example, many aspects of the mythical figure of the Bodhisattva Avalokite'svara can be traced back to the mythology of 'Siva and Indra, etc. There is however one thing that embarrasses me : we, Buddhologists, should ask many questions to the Indologists, but the Indologists usually should have only few questions to ask to the Buddhologists... Nevertheless, there is perhaps a field where the Buddhologists can help in some degree the Indologists, and this is precisely the problems relating to the beginnings of the Tantrism. There are only very few evidences of the early period of the Hindu Tantrism, but one can find many texts of the Buddhist Tantra from 6th or 7th century remaining in the Chinese Canon... I apologize for my poor English. I hope however that what I meant can be understood, and that this can ba an invitation to fruitful discussions and dialogs between Indologists and Buddhologists. Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan (n-iyanag at cc.win.or.jp GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp) From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Sep 14 05:30:47 1994 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 05:30:47 +0000 Subject: seeking Vedas and Agamas Message-ID: <161227017238.23782.11181470818966999318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To members of the list: Dear Scholars: The editors of the monthly newspaper Hinduism Today are seeking electronic copies of the Vedas and the Saiva Agamas, in English. Does anyone know if such texts exist? I have been able to locate the Rg Veda at Oxford, in Sanskrit, but that is about all. Any help or clues would be *greatly* appreciated. By the way, the paper is available via email server. Drop me a note if you are interested. (Or I can post the information here if the moderator does not object.) Also available are email subscriptions to the Thirukkural, and the Nandinatha Sutras. Om Shanti Sadhunathan Nadesan HT Postmaster From phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu Thu Sep 15 00:37:07 1994 From: phillips at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Stephen H. Phillips) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 19:37:07 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017236.23782.18372909455587309626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whether or not there were conflicts or other relations of whatever nature between Aryans and Dravidians three or four millennia ago, surely at some point in time rather distant from us the distinction ceases to be salient with regard to many cultural phenomena in the Subcontinent including religious developments. Even if there were severe conflict extending for several centuries, how important could that be for, say, understanding religious developments within the last thousand years? Moreover, the distinction is not one, I dare to say, that gets much play in classical texts--though I wonder if in Tamil classical texts (as opposed to Sanskrit, Pali, and Tibetan), the distinction is made much of. Is there a classical Tamil scholar out there? Stephen Phillips, Univ. of Texas, Austin From kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu Thu Sep 15 05:20:58 1994 From: kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 00:20:58 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017239.23782.3196381333292025689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in answer to the question raised by Stephen Phillips. 1. First of all, the oldest strata of Tamil literature (tentatively dated 300 BC-200 AD, figures to be taken with caution) show the existence of an independent cultural life in Tamil, with very few traces of Sanskrit influence. As someone else already pointed out, there does not seem to be any contestation of the fact that Tamil and Sanskrit are unrelated. (See Burrow and Emeneau's Dictionary). Borrowings in both directions have been known for some time. 2. This literature has developed by integrating slowly Northern elements, with the consequence that it was possible to have access to most intellectual currents without using anything but Tamil sources. In recent times, perhaps due to the fact that foreign invasions pushed Sanskrit scholars to find haven in the South in particular, one has seen more conflictual situations. One may want to look up J. Filliozat's works (e.g. a collection of his papers under the title `Laghu Prabandhah') to see the place of Tamil sources in modern Indology. There are examples of Tamil works where a Sanskrit translation has been passed as the original. 3. Tamil-speaking regions and their sphere of influence have also contributed many writers who expressed themselves in Sanskrit, while they were well-aware of a related literature in Tamil, to which they occasionally made reference. It should not be believed that Tamil literature was developed only by non-Brahmins, since there are famous counter-examples. It is because Tamil literature has preserved a certain degree of independence that we may now infer that it stems from a source which has slowly imbibed conceptions of another. Over and above the question of the level of violence involved in this transformation, we must note that Tamil sources, because they do not duplicate material in other languages, have been and will be an invaluable source of insight. The reader who wishes to see for him/herself may want to learn more about the following works * For philosophical literature: Tirumantiram (by TirumUlar): one of the earliest treatises of Saiva Siddhanta MaNimEkalai: a Buddhist epic (perhaps around 200 AD?) containing refutations of other doctrines Civa-n~An'a Botham, C'iva-n~An'a cittiyAr, ...: these texts of the S'aiva Siddhanta include a study of other doctrines as well. * For musicology: CilappatikAram, by ILankO-v-at'ikaL (incudes glimpses of a remote ancestor of modern Karnatic music) * For poetry: PuRanAnURu, AkanAnURu: two of the oldest anthologies. TirukkuRaL: arguably the most famous work in Tamil * For mysticism: TiruvAcakam: contains the experience of MANikkavAcakar The poetry of the AzhvArs * A famous epic: Kampa-rAmayaNam: A well-known study by VVS Aiyar compares this to the Sanskrit original. Many of the above have been translated into English or French, at least once; but as one may infer from the difficulties in datation, much remains to be done. As usual, there is no substitute for first-hand information. We hope that these few lines will encourage more people to read about Tamil literature and its specific contribution to Indian culture. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota From GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp Thu Sep 15 00:32:00 1994 From: GGA03414 at niftyserve.or.jp (=?utf-8?B?5byl5rC45L+h576O?=) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 00:32:00 +0000 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017234.23782.7659030234991717521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Rob Meyer, You wrote : >Perhaps the most comprehensive survey of Tantric >literature written so far is the volume by >Teun Goudriaan and Sanjukta Gupta, entitled >Hindu Tantric and Sakta Literature, published >in 1981 in the "orange series" edited by >Jan Gonda. > and >The reason I have tried to open this debate is >that while I am primarily a Tibetanist existing >in a field where Sanderson's views have simply >never been heard of, my knowledge of Tantrism >comes precisely from Goudriaan, Gupta, Sanderson, >Gombrich, Biardeau, etc; all of whom are unread >by Tibetan experts on Tantra. Could you please provide me the references to the books (or articles) to which you refer (those of :Teun Goudriaan and Sanjukta Gupta [what is the "orange series" ?] ; Sanderson ; Gombrich ; Biardeau...) ? Thank you in advance ! Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan P.S. Excuse me for my long silence... I'm always thinking to write you... I shall send you my articles when they will be achieved. From C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 07:45:57 1994 From: C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk (Chris Wooff) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 08:45:57 +0100 Subject: HimNet - Himalayan Researchers List Message-ID: <161227017241.23782.15135301755036753736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following message was rejected by the list processor because of the presence of certain header fields. I'm therefore reposting it. Chris Wooff >From: "MAIL.SOUTHASI" >Subject: HIMNET - NEW LIST >To: CONSALD%UTXVM.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU, indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK, > CAIRO at MAIL.LOC.GOV, MEINHEIT at MAIL.LOC.GOV > > HimNet (Himalayan Network) is an E-Mail Internet link for Geologist >/ Geographer / Geophysicist researchers working in the Himalayan countries >of Pakistan, India, Tibet (China), Nepal and Bhutan. A news / discussion >digest is sent to all those who are subscribed. HimNet is a "moderated" >mailing list and aims to provide: conference details, list of latest >Himalayan papers published in scientific journals, Himalayan magazine >announcements, job vacancies with Himalayan interest, news from the >Himalayan regions, scientific research information and news about anything >related to the Himalayas. Back issues of the HimNet Numbers are available >from the coordinator. > > If you would like to subscribe to the HimNet Mailing List, send an >E-Mail to: HimNet at erdw.ethz.ch with the command: > > SUBSCRIBE > >Coordinator: Dr. David A. Spencer (DASpencer at erdw.ethz.ch) >Geologisches Institut, ETH-Zentrum, CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland > >************************************************************ > >If you do not want to remain on the HimNet Mailing List, send an E-Mail to: > HimNet at erdw.ethz.ch >with the command: > UNSUBSCRIBE > >If you want to subscribe to the HimNet Mailing List, send an E-Mail to: > HimNet at erdw.ethz.ch >with the command: > SUBSCRIBE > >You can submit your postings at any time to HimNet by sending them to: > HimNet at erdw.ethz.ch > >************************************************************ >************************************************************ > >Coordinator: Dr. David A. Spencer >E-Mail/Internet: DASpencer at erdw.ethz.ch >Postal address: Geologisches Institut, ETH-Zentrum, CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland >Telephone: +41-1-632-3698 >Telefax: +41-1-632-1080 > >************************************************************ >************************************************************ > > ----------------------------------- Chris Wooff Sent with ecsmail version 3 beta 4 From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Thu Sep 15 17:04:02 1994 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 10:04:02 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017254.23782.10659812099121734925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well taken points! | | The reader who wishes to see for him/herself may want to learn | more about the following works Yes! | | * For philosophical literature: | Tirumantiram (by TirumUlar): one of the earliest treatises of | Saiva Siddhanta As you no doubt are aware, legend has it that Tirumular was a Sanskrit speaking sage from the Himalayas who traveled to Tamil Nadu on the instructions of his Guru to revive Savia Siddhanta. In order to do so, he left his body and inhabited the body of a cowherd (mular) who had just passed away .. this so he could gain instant knowledge of Tamil. He then supposedly brought forth his realizations in the local tongue. Whether or not the story has any merit, its a profound mystical treatise, much closer in nature to Agamic than to Vedic works. Question: where is this important work available in English? In particular, is there an electronic copy you know of? The same question applies to the other works you have mentioned, and also to the Saiva Agamas. | | * For poetry: | PuRanAnURu, AkanAnURu: two of the oldest anthologies. | TirukkuRaL: arguably the most famous work in Tamil | Indeed, as it is sworn upon in the courts of Tamil Nadu and its perfect poetry has been compared to Shakespeare. It has been translated many times, but a modern English translation hasn't been done. One is now being completed and is scheduled for publication in 1995 in conjunction with the installation ceremonies for the stupendous Tiruvalluvar statue that Sri Ganapathi Stapathi is carving for the island at Cape Comorin, at the southernmost tip of India. A preliminary version is available by email subscription; write to pslvax!sadhu at ucsd.edu Sadhunathan Nadesan From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Sep 15 00:22:00 1994 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 10:22:00 +1000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017244.23782.12144513578027748786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satyanad Kchenassa wrote: >This is in answer to the question raised by Stephen Phillips. ...... >The reader who wishes to see for him/herself may want to learn >more about the following works > >* For philosophical literature: > Tirumantiram (by TirumUlar): one of the earliest treatises of >Saiva Siddhanta > MaNimEkalai: a Buddhist epic (perhaps around 200 AD?) >containing refutations of other doctrines > Civa-n~An'a Botham, C'iva-n~An'a cittiyAr, ...: >these texts of the S'aiva Siddhanta include a study of other >doctrines as well. > >* For musicology: > CilappatikAram, by ILankO-v-at'ikaL (incudes glimpses of >a remote ancestor of modern Karnatic music) > >* For poetry: > PuRanAnURu, AkanAnURu: two of the oldest anthologies. > TirukkuRaL: arguably the most famous work in Tamil > >* For mysticism: > TiruvAcakam: contains the experience of MANikkavAcakar > The poetry of the AzhvArs > >* A famous epic: > Kampa-rAmayaNam: A well-known study by VVS Aiyar compares >this to the Sanskrit original. > >Many of the above have been translated into English or French, at >least once; ..... Could it be possible to have some more precise bibliographical references to these translations? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From magier at columbia.edu Thu Sep 15 17:09:57 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 13:09:57 -0400 Subject: Classical Hinduism, Asst. or Assoc. Prof. (Columbia University) Message-ID: <161227017251.23782.10302154179416167629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT: Asst. or Assoc. Prof. in Classical Hinduism The Department of Religion, Columbia University, announces a position in classical Hinduism. Candidates at the assistant and nontenured associate professor level can be considered for this 5-year term appointment; PhD required. Teaching responsibilities will include both graduate and undergraduate courses, some of them assuming a knowledge of Sanskrit. An additional major responsibility will be the development of the new Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center, of which the appointee will act as Director; therefore leadership qualitiies and asministrative aptitude are essential. Academic interests of a particular relevance to the DHIRC are Veda, Vedanga (including Ayurveda), Vedanta, shastra, and the long history of interpretation associated with the vedic tradition, in the broadest sense, and with classical Hindu texts and ideas. Further information about DHIRC is available upon request from Robert A. F. Thurman, chair, Department of Religion, Kent Hall, Columbia University, New York, NY 10027 (212-854-3218), to whom applications should be addressed. The deadline for applications is November 15, 1994. Materials should include a vita, three letters of reference, and a small sampling of relevant publications. Columbia University is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. Women and members of minority groups are urged to apply. From magier at columbia.edu Thu Sep 15 17:10:21 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 13:10:21 -0400 Subject: Sanskrit Lectureship (Columbia University) Message-ID: <161227017252.23782.4448690569979635593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT: Lectureship in Sanskrit Columbia University, the Department of Religion, announces a Lectureship in Sanskrit, initial appointment for three year, renewable. PhD required. Teaching responsibilities will range from introductory to advanced Sanskrit, and may s=also include courses on other aspects of Indic religion and civilization. Preference will be given to candidates who have experience teaching Sanskrit; desirable areas of expertise include kavya, darsana, vyakarana, veda, and, ideally, fluency in spoken Sansrit. Administrative experience preferred, as the poointee will be expected to assist in the development of a new Indic Studies Center. The deadline for applications is November 15, 1994. Materials should include a vita, three letters of reference, a sampling of relevant writings, and teaching evaluations if possible. Columbia University is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. Women and members of minority groups are urged to apply. Applications should be addressed to Robert A. F. Thurman, Chair, Department of Religion, 617 Kent Hall, Columbia University, New York, NY 10027 (212-854-3218). From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 13:33:32 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 14:33:32 +0100 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017248.23782.15287532934816095826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance seems to have misread the point of the debate: we are not here discussing the relationship of Saiva and Buddhist tantra (for which debate his comment is entirely correct). We are debating the quite different issue of whether Tantra per se arose from a non-Aryan substrate or within Brahmanic circles. Also, whether Tantra is such a monolithic "thing" at all, or just a set of features of medieval religion that give the appearence of a distinctive syndrome. All the best, Rob From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 13:57:52 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 14:57:52 +0100 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017249.23782.15129040502597601859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Standard works on Folk Hinduism explode the idea of meaningful Aryan/non-Aryan distinctions; for example, Blackburn's paper in History of Religions some years ago, or Biardeau's Histoire du Poteau. All of which supports exactly what Stephen Phillips says. Why does this outlook not get through the barrier between Hindu studies and Buddhist studies? Rob From fp7 at columbia.edu Thu Sep 15 19:10:58 1994 From: fp7 at columbia.edu (Frances Pritchett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 15:10:58 -0400 Subject: The Columbia Book of Indian Poetry Message-ID: <161227017256.23782.18296293366826797099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, This project has been in the making for some years; two of its moving spirits, Barbara Stoler Miller and A. K. Ramanujan, have recently passed away. Their third collaborator, Vinay Dharwadker, is determined to bring it to a conclusion. He is soliciting manuscript and published translations from all periods and all South Asian languages. He is hoping to wrap up his collection of material in the next few months. Unfortunately, Vinay is not quite hooked up to email yet. So he can be reached at: Department of English, University of Oklahoma, Gittinger Hall 113, Norman, Oklahoma 73019. His office phone is 405-325-4661. He does not mind being called at home, at 405-360-4361. Or he can be reached by fax: either 405-325-0831 or 325-5068. A contribution to this volume would be a nice tribute to Barbara and Raman; the many people who knew them and miss them might wish to consider sending something. Vinay says, "Each piece included in the book will have to succeed on its own as a poem in its English version." This is a high standard to meet, but certainly Barbara and Raman would have wanted nothing less. From dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Thu Sep 15 23:03:20 1994 From: dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (dom) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 18:03:20 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017282.23782.11242398656373233581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been several lively exchanges about this topic recently, and it seems to me that there are two quite distinct matters of interest here. First, the topic itself. It is relatively easy to acquire some secure knowledge about the early history of India, even if some of this knowledge is necessarily conjectural. People have mentioned sources such as Parpola and Renfrew. I would add Allchin and Allchin's "The Birth of Indian Civilization" (recently reissued by Penguin India), and their successor to this book, "The Rise of Civilization in India and Pakistan". There are many other books, including many by Indian authors (if anyone cares about the nationality of their authors). I consider that Thomas Burrow's book "The Sanskrit Language" (Faber) is still a marvellously interesting and comprehensive survey of the very early history of Sanskrit. Other works on the early history of Sanskrit by Renou, Bloch, etc. are also excellent. The archaeological publications of Deccan College etc. are very important too, of course. There is no Great Dispute about early Indian history. Several generations of very dedicated and meticulous historical linguists, archaeologists, physical anthopologists, and others have revealed a fascinating and surprisingly coherent and well articulated picture of early Indian culture and history. Of course there are boundary cases, where sources become exiguous, and we grasp at straws. But this is the same for the early history of any culture, if you follow it back far enough. When I was an undergraduate Sanskritist twenty years ago we were already being taught that the coming of the Vedic people to India was separated from the fall of the Indus cities by a period of at least some hundreds of years, if not more. Anyone who still thinks of Max Mueller as an authority on any Indological topic is sadly out of date. (It's like thinking that London is still covered by smog and full of workhouses, as Dickens described.) Secondly, there is the sociology of knowledge involved in the debate about these matters. Some people seem able to ignore the edifice of knowledge created by establishment scholarship, and feel that the works of Frawley, Kak (and presumably earlier authors like Tilak) and other similar books are providing a new basis for the understanding of early India. Implicit in such a decision is a conspiracy theory about traditional scholarship, which often seems to express itself in terms of a critique of imagined orientalism or scholarly colonialism. To the academic historian, the Frawley/Kak material is to Indian history what von Dainiken's Chariots of the Gods is to world history: a cruel joke at best, or a monument of idiocy at worst. Underlying this divide is the question about authority and belief. Few of us can take the time to evaluate for ourselves from first principles *all* the issues we need to know about. So how do we decide what to believe? It is hardest when an author whose work we trust and admire comes out with something dramatically different from what we would expect. Quite often this takes the form of a scholar established in one field making dramatic claims about another, quite different, field. I think of Fritjof Capra (Tao of Physics), or David Bohm (Wholeness...). But Ernst Schroedinger seems to have managed it all right (What is Life?). Then there is the group of scholars like Martin Bernal (Black Athena), Gordon Wasson (Soma: divine...), Julian Jaynes (The Origin ...), and others who produce magnificent and very plausible theories which explain so much, and are so tempting, but at the same time so outrageous as to forbid belief. They attempt to change too much too quickly, and lose credibility. On the other hand, sometimes a great change is required and correct. The discovery of the Indus civilization, not so long ago (the cities were excavated properly only from 1920 onwards), is an example of an event that completely overturned most thinking about the early history of India. What I find wholly unacceptable is the "anything goes, everything is relative" view expressed by J. B. Sharma. He and I have swapped views on this before, and I don't want to bore everyone here by regurgitating the discussion. I believe that there is such a thing as extremely high probability regarding certain ideas and beliefs (in a Popperian sense). I do also think that to a large extent we end up believing what we have been taught by our teachers, professors, and other authorities (our "aaptas"), and that implies that we belong to a tradition. And the differences between traditions are not normally susceptible to resolution by reason alone. So, sadly, the Frawley/Kak followers will probably never understand how lunatic their ideas appear to university scholars, and university scholars may never realize how conspiratorial their ideas appear to Frawley/Kak adherents. Or am I too pessimistic? Is there really a faculty of reason, a buddhi, which can help us to distinguish true from false, as the swan separates milk from water? And in such a way that we all end up with the same result? Dominik From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Thu Sep 15 08:11:12 1994 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 18:11:12 +1000 Subject: Info Needed....... (fwd) Message-ID: <161227017243.23782.5804453553691646490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Romila Thapar's book has been published by Oxford University Press, New Delhi, in the last two or three years. On Sat, 10 Sep 1994, Dileep Karanth wrote: > > Hi, > > I need to help a friend answer this question--- > > Could anybody tell me where K. Badrinath's review, Romila Thapar's > book 'Cultural Transaction and early India`, was published? > > Will somebody please help ? Thanks a lot > > Dileep S karanth > > From mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk Thu Sep 15 23:56:48 1994 From: mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk (mhcrxlc at dir.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 23:56:48 +0000 Subject: the logic of the argument Message-ID: <161227017258.23782.17803616987998491707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rob Mayer: >Lance seems to have misread the point of the debate: we >are not here discussing the relationship of Saiva and >Buddhist tantra (for which debate his comment is entirely >correct). We are debating the quite different issue of >whether Tantra per se arose from a non-Aryan substrate >or within Brahmanic circles. I think actually I was assuming that the term brahmanic was not intended to include Buddhism or at any rate that Buddhist groups or individuals would not necessarily have the features which would be classified as brahmanic. This is perhaps arguable. In any case I don't believe in a non-Aryan substrate. It is not possible to separate out the origins and sources of things after such a long lapse of time. Quite obviously one could generate a number of different models, depending on how many so-called Aryans invaded, whether they came over a short or a long period of time, whether they were a socially homogenous group or groups, etc., etc. My suspicion is that: 1. There were probably many different cultures in India when they came and 2. they were themselves culturally diverse. In other words I see no reason to suppose that the surviving literature gives a balanced picture of their society. >Also, whether Tantra is >such a monolithic "thing" at all, or just a set >of features of medieval religion that give the appearence >of a distinctive syndrome. Isn't this a matter of definition? Clearly it can be defined tightly in terms of the specific texts called Tantras. At the other end the word tantra is sometimes used in ways that amount to magic in general. In this sense it is perfectly possible to talk of tantra as something which occcurs very widely in human cultures around the world. In between are various other possibilities, some of them perhaps more useful in many contexts than either extreme. I would be perfectly happy to concede that there are no monolithic "things" at all, just features that give the appearence of a distinctive syndrome. Lance MANCHESTER, UK Telephone (UK): 061 434 3646 (International) +44 61 434 3646 Fax (UK): 061 275 3613 (International) +44 61 275 3613 From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Sep 16 17:45:00 1994 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 10:45:00 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar Message-ID: <161227017264.23782.3003343158485825768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | | I have access to a copy of this although it is not to hand. If you | have any difficulty procuring it let me know and I can *probably* | find out how to get in touch with the publisher. I don't know of | any electronic version. | | noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca | | \ END: Noel Evans OK, thank you very much, Noel! From jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu Fri Sep 16 14:59:20 1994 From: jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu (Jim Hartzell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 10:59:20 -0400 Subject: Indology group Message-ID: <161227017259.23782.17227915905849305058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone suggest some articles and books covering the latest work on the Indus Valley civiliztion and research into the script of the seals? Thanks in advance Jim Hartzell jh at cubsps.bio.columbia.edu From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Sep 16 16:17:06 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 11:17:06 -0500 Subject: ADDRESS SEARCH Message-ID: <161227017263.23782.4285284186800463649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Introduction --------------- I am a new member to this group. My interests are Tamil and South Indian studies. I have a good handwritten list of articles and books (Total approx. 35000) on Tamil culturescape. I am interested in collecting atleast photocopies of some old Tamil books. The authors are like Tiruchengode A. Muttucaami KOnaar, C. K. Narayanasami Mudaliyar, M. R. Kandasami Kavirayar etc.. I am very interested in old books published from Kongu region. I am willing to pay for the postage + copying charges. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov. ********************************************************************* ADDRESS SEARCH? ---------------- I want to get in touch with the following Professors? Postal address and e-mail address/phone number are welcome. Please e-mail to: nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov 1) Prof. George W. Spencer. Chola historian. Northern Illinois State University. Full address is desired. 2) Prof. Gregory Possehl, University of Pennsylvania 3) Prof. Brian J. Murton, University of Hawaii 4) Dr. Kamil Zvelebil, Utrecht 5) Dr. John Marr, London 6) DR. Robert L. Hardgrave Thanks a lot, Ganesan From ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Sep 16 15:41:31 1994 From: ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 11:41:31 -0400 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar Message-ID: <161227017261.23782.17828784588278472851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >| Tirumantiram (by TirumUlar): one of the earliest treatises of >| Saiva Siddhanta > [stuff omitted] > > Question: where is this important work available in English? > In particular, is there an electronic copy you know of? The > Thirumoolar, Siddhar Thirumandiram: A Classic of Yoga and Tantra ed. M. Govindan illus. Barbara Miller notes and tr. from the Tamil, Dr B. Natarajan paperback, 3 vols. isbn 1 895383 02 1 Montreal: Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications, 1993 I have access to a copy of this although it is not to hand. If you have any difficulty procuring it let me know and I can *probably* find out how to get in touch with the publisher. I don't know of any electronic version. noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Fri Sep 16 21:03:23 1994 From: pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 14:03:23 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar Message-ID: <161227017269.23782.5779896361447028514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> | | I won't wait for you to have difficulty procuring it, I was able to | get the publisher's information without any trouble, and I think they | probably distribute only by direct mail. Here they are: | | Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications cool, thanks! From FRS00JDW at unccvm.uncc.edu Fri Sep 16 19:56:32 1994 From: FRS00JDW at unccvm.uncc.edu (J. Daniel White) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 14:56:32 -0500 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017267.23782.11349517770306278057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though this subject has been broached not infrequently here, I raise the question again: Has anyone discovered a Windows Devanagari program for Sanskrit that is completely "ASCII friendly"? I have used Madhav Deshpande's Chiwriter program for over a year now and have found it very helpful. What I am now looking for is an excellent Devanagari and Roman program for use with Windows so I can more easily move from the Sanskrit text into Xywrite or Note Bene which are ASCII friendly. Also, has anyone in cyberspace developed a PC program for Windows which facilitates comparisons of variant readings of Sanskrit texts once they have been entered into the computer? You may reply directly to me at the above e-mail address or through indology at liverpool. Thanks! From ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Sep 16 19:30:27 1994 From: ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (ai927 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 15:30:27 -0400 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar Message-ID: <161227017266.23782.13486704600798321490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >| I have access to a copy of this although it is not to hand. If you >| have any difficulty procuring it let me know and I can *probably* >| find out how to get in touch with the publisher. I don't know of >| any electronic version. >| >| noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca >| >\ END: Noel Evans > >OK, thank you very much, Noel! > I won't wait for you to have difficulty procuring it, I was able to get the publisher's information without any trouble, and I think they probably distribute only by direct mail. Here they are: Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications 165 rue de la Gauchetiere Ouest #608 Montreal PQ Canada H2Z 1X6 phone (514) 284-3551 .... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Fri Sep 16 21:12:58 1994 From: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya Mishra) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 17:12:58 -0400 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017271.23782.10837634517108478261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just ordered a set of Devnagri fonts which appear quite nice and capable of writing Sanskrit and mixing up with Roman characters as well. If that is what you want you can ask them to send you a free sample which has characters on the middle row of the key board. If you want the full fonts it will cost $19.80 in US and you may inquire by email from : info at impros.com If you want mailing address, I can send me email or directly to them. Aditya Mishra Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 (Please leave message) email: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us PRODIGY: TVDS96A From breusch at students.wisc.edu Sat Sep 17 00:54:39 1994 From: breusch at students.wisc.edu (breusch at students.wisc.edu) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 19:54:39 -0500 Subject: Indology group Message-ID: <161227017272.23782.16978599965861507854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suggest that you contact Prof. Mark Kenoyer of the Dept. Anthropology, Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison. He does excavations in Harappa every spring (winter in Madison) and then teaches in Madison. He has also published several articles. Right now he is here teaching some courses and is the organizer of a conference on "Changing perspectives of the Indus Valley tradition" to be held in Madison (Nov. 4-6). I don't know whether he ever checks his e-mail, but his phone numbers are: 608-262-5696 and 608-262-2866. Office hours: Tues. and Thurs. 2-3 PM (Midwest time). Beatrice Reusch breusch at students.wisc.edu 311 North Hancock # 111 Madison, WI 53703 608-256-6268 (voice & fax) From breusch at students.wisc.edu Sat Sep 17 11:08:41 1994 From: breusch at students.wisc.edu (breusch at students.wisc.edu) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 06:08:41 -0500 Subject: Mark Kenoyer Message-ID: <161227017277.23782.10375189637324778238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I failed to mention that if anyone wants to contact Mark Kenoyer through e-mail they can, if they wish, send their messages to my address and I will be happy to print them out and pass them on. I am his student and I see him on a regular basis. Beatrice Reusch breusch at students.wisc.edu 311 North Hancock # 111 Madison, WI 53703 608-256-6268 (voice & fax) From z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Sat Sep 17 14:10:09 1994 From: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya Mishra) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 10:10:09 -0400 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017280.23782.497657617318374278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I had posted one note recently on the topic but I misspelled the address. Here is a complete copy of the announcement INPROS is pleased to announce the release of DEVNAGARI Fonts for MS- Windows and Mac These are extraordinarily high quality fonts being offered at an equally extraordinary price of $15.90 +S&H for a set of three fonts. This offer expires on Diwali 1994. You can get a sample of SheelRekha in UUENCODED file via e-mail by contacting InProS at info at inpros.com The sample font contains some very nice symbols like Om, Namaste, Ganesh(swastika), Trishul and many others. Just for that it is worth getting a copy of the sample. For further information please contact info at inpros.com InPros Box 57-2141 Houston Tx 77257-2141 713-465-2967 (Fax, Voice Mail & Fax on Demand) support at inpros.com Aditya Mishra Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 (Please leave message) email: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us PRODIGY: TVDS96A On Sat, 17 Sep 1994 P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk wrote: > Perhaps it's time for some brave soul (or no-soul) to put together a > FAQ on Asian script fonts for computers. Or is the scene changing so > fast that this would be confusing? > > peter moore, canterbury, uk > > From A.BURTON at student.anu.edu.au Sat Sep 17 15:34:35 1994 From: A.BURTON at student.anu.edu.au (A.BURTON at student.anu.edu.au) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 10:34:35 -0500 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017275.23782.12890733025742240287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Though this subject has been broached not infrequently here, I raise the >question again: Has anyone discovered a Windows Devanagari program for >Sanskrit that is completely "ASCII friendly"? I have used Madhav Deshpande's >Chiwriter program for over a year now and have found it very helpful. What I >am now looking for is an excellent Devanagari and Roman program for use with >Windows so I can more easily move from the Sanskrit text into Xywrite or Note >Bene which are ASCII friendly. Also, has anyone in cyberspace developed a PC >program for Windows which facilitates comparisons of variant readings of >Sanskrit texts once they have been entered into the computer? You may reply >directly to me at the above e-mail address or through indology at liverpool. >Thanks! > Some new members of the list (like myself) would also be interested in hearing anything on this subject; e.g. why do the extended character sets (both devanagaari and diacritic) always seem to play up when being converted to other formats? so please reply to the full list. Thanks in advance, Adrian Burton From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Sat Sep 17 11:22:24 1994 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 12:22:24 +0100 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017278.23782.6601010715187352699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps it's time for some brave soul (or no-soul) to put together a FAQ on Asian script fonts for computers. Or is the scene changing so fast that this would be confusing? peter moore, canterbury, uk From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Sat Sep 17 01:01:59 1994 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand V Raman) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 13:01:59 +1200 Subject: Please be careful in your replies Message-ID: <161227017274.23782.6648926263473548699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please don't just hit 'r' when you want to reply to the Well I think it is possible to configure the listserv to set the Reply-to field to the originator instead of the list. Perhaps Chris could look into that if there happen to be too many replies to the list? - & From kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu Sat Sep 17 22:32:18 1994 From: kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 17:32:18 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Tamil sources Message-ID: <161227017284.23782.15282473012344347662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to the request by Lars Martin Fosse for references to translations of Tamil works, we include a brief list below. It is intended to give a cross-section of the work done in this century. It must be noted that many of these works were unavailable to most scholars until the beginning of this century, when most of them were edited by U. V. Swaminathaiyar. Since many texts refer to poetic conventions which have no equivalent in other literatures, we have included also a few studies and articles which may help the newcomer to Tamil Studies. One should also note that many works translate not the text itself, but a paraphrase by famous mediaeval commentators. These commentaries were written because a direct understanding of the text had become difficult in their time. It follows that these commentaries represent a deformation of the original to some extent. It is therefore recommended to look at the texts themselves whenever possible, or at least to compare several translations. To my earlier comments on the place of Tamil sources in Indology, one may add two further points: 1) We now know that there were direct contacts between Rome and Greece and the ancient Tamils, by sea, before the Christian Era; see e.g. J. Andre and J. Filliozat, L'Inde vue de Rome : textes latins de l'antiquite, relatifs a l'Inde, Paris, Belles Lettres, 1986. 2) It is also known that Tamil colons played a major role in the spreading of Indian culture in South-East Asia, from the time of the Pallavas (see the references below). The following list is limited to studies in Western languages. Those with some knowledge of modern Tamil are *strongly* urged to look up U. V. Swaminathaiyar's editions (for PuRam, Kampan, PattuppAt't'u, KuRuntokai...) which combine modern standards of scholarship with an excellent understanding of the texts. It would, by the way, be very nice if these editions were reedited--- I would appreciate knowing of any effort in this direction. For KuRaL, the Tiruppan_antAL edition, which includes five (sometimes contradictory) commentaries, is recommended. REFERENCES (alphabetically by author) Note: PIFI = Publication de l'Institut Francais d'Indologie, Pondichery 1) V. V. S. Aiyar, Kamba-Ramayanam, A Study, Delhi Tamil Sangam, 1950. This work contains translations of several passages (this author also translated the KuRaL). 2) J.Bloch, Structure grammaticale des langues dravidiennes, A.Maisonneuve, translated by R. Ganesh Harshe (1954) 3) Surendranath Dasgupta, A History of Indian Philosophy, The Southern Schools of Saivism, Cambridge, 1955. 4) J. Filliozat, (a) Un texte de la religion kaumara: le TirumurukARRuppat'ai (by NakkIrar) PIFI, 1973 (b) Un texte tamoul de devotion vishnouite : Le TiruppAvai d'ANt'AL, PIFI, 1972 (describes Sanskrit translations as well). (c) Laghu-Prabandhah, E.J.Brill, 1974. (d) Cours au College de France, 1971-1977. See Annuaire du College de France, from 1971 to 1977; includes translations from the Tirumantiram. (The same, from 1962, also contains some translations from MammAzhvAr, and from the Sangam) 5) Articles by J. Filliozat et P. Meile in `L'Inde classique' by L. Renou and J. Filliozat, 2 vol.Payot, Paris, 1947-1953. 6) F. Gros, Le Paripatal, PIFI #35, 1968. [Has also edited the Tevaram, with T. V. Gopal Iyer. The introduction of the first volume is in French, the text in Tamil only. Critical notes may have appeared as a third volume]. 7) G. L Hart III, (a) The Forest Book of the Ramayana of Kampan, translated and with an introduction by G. L. Hart and Hank Heifetz, U. of California Press, Berkeley 1988. (b) Poems of the Tamil Anthologies, (from AingkuRunURU, KuRuntokai, NaRRiNai, Akam and PuRam), Princeton 1979. 8) J.S.M.Hooper, Hymns of Alwars, Calcutta, 1929 9) F.Kingsbury and G.E.Philipps, Hymns of Tamil saivite saints, Oxford,1921. 10) S.Krishnaswami Aiyangar, Manimekalai in its historical setting, London, Luzac and Co, 1928. I gather there exists an abridged prose version. 11) J.M.Nallaswami Pillai, (a) Meykanda Devar, Sivagnana Botham, Dharmapuram, Gananasambandan Press, 1945. (b) Umapathi Sivacharya, Thiruvarutpayan, same ed., same year. 12) B. Natarajan, Tirumantiram, with introduction, synopsis, and notes, Madras, ITES Pub.l, 1979; Thirumandiram: A Classic of Yoga and Tantra, Montreal, Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications, 1993 [This reference was also mentioned recently by Noel Evans] 13) G.U.Pope, (a) The Thiruvacagam, Oxford, 1900. Also translated (b) TirukkuRaL and (c) Naladiyar. Reprinted by (a) Clarendon Press 1970, and Asian Educational Sevices, New Delhi 1980, 1984 for (b) and (c) respectively. [For KAmattuppAl, see VVS Aiyar, of a recent translation by Gros (Unesco, Gallimard, 1992)] (d) Also translated selections from PuRapporuL veNpAmAlai, and PuRanAnURu (South India Saiva Siddhanta Works Pub. Soc., Tinnevelli, 1973). 14) V.R.Ramachandra Dikshitar, The Silappadigaram, Oxford, 1939, or The Cilappatikaram, with a foreword by J. Bloch and K. R. Srinivasa Iyengar, South India Saiva Siddhanta Works Pub. Soc., Tinnevelli, 1978. 15) A. K. Ramanujan, The Interior Landscape, Indana Univ. Bloomington, 1967 16) H.W.Schomerus, (a) Die Dravidishen Literaturen, in `Die Literaturen Indiens,' H. von Glassenap, 2nd ed., Stuttgart, 1961. (b) Der Caiva-Siddhanta, Leipzig, 1912 reprinted: New York, Garland Publ., 1980. (c) Meister Eckhardt and MaNikka Vasagar, Guetersloh, 1936. (d) Die Hymnen des Maniikka - Vasagar, Jena, 1923. (e) Schvaitische Heiligenleben (Periya PurAnam), Jena, 1925 (f) AruNantis Siva-gnana-siddhiyar : die Erlangung des Wissens um Siva oder um die Erl"osung ; edited by H. Berger, A. Dhamotharan and D. B. Kapp, Wiesbaden, Steiner, 1981. 17) S.A.Singaravelu, A comparative study of the Story of Rama in South India and Southeast Asia, Kuala Lumpur, 1956 18) X.S.Thani Nayagam, Landscape and Poetry, Madras, 1956 I also think that there is an English rendering of PukazhEnti's NaLa-veNpA by M. Langton. In answer to S. Nadesan's question, very little is available in electronic format. Many texts of the Sangam, as well as the definitions in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, are available online by Gopher, from linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de (vt100-type terminal emulation is fine, and the transliteration system is explained in separate files). The texts themselves are however in Tamil only. I'd be happy to provide further pointers if needed---this list is not meant to be exhaustive. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics University of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Sun Sep 18 03:23:06 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 03:23:06 +0000 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017286.23782.7501174097311785428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me preface this note by introducing myself to the list. I am a faculty member in Physics in a college in north Georgia. I grew up in India, and had my schooling there. Subsequently, I have lived most of my life in the U.S. I am not a formal scholar of Indology, and indeed most of my knowledge of the Vedic tradition comes from growing up in it. I learned Indian history in the Indian schools where the stock fare is this invasion theory in question. This theory is a major influence on the current Indian ethos and those who follow Indian polity, battlelines have been drawn with this theory as the basis. If this view does not hold forth anymore, what is the revised view ? If the history of ancient India is so well known (even if some of it is "necessarily conjectural"...), my request to Dominik (or some other amenable sage) is to share the most current view briefly in the thoughtful manner of the Buddhist scholar from Japan (forgive me, I dont have the note handy for the name..). I have read some works of Kak, Frawley, Fuerstien, Elst, (not Tilak) enough to shake my belief in the standard theory, but am not convinced that they are totally correct. I would like to see refutation of what they are saying. I hope that someone on the net will point out some serious flaws in their reasoning. Hopefully some literature will be spawned on the subject. Invective or cries of heresey are just not intellectually convincing. I would like to deride the insinuation of being labelled as advocating "anything goes, all is relative". My viewpoint is more like we cannot know ontological realities conclusively. However, having exchanged a couple of notes is insufficient evidence to announce such personal judgements in a debate, and really, are besides the point. I dont think that there is an either/or choice between schools of thought. It seems that the only way we can look at occurences in ancient Indian history is as a spectrum of possibilities, some more likely than others. At this point, neither school seems definitive, though I would lend greater weightage to the consensual domain of folks who have spent a lifetime looking into these things. I have not however seen the Frawley/Kak school demolished by dialectic engagement which perhaps will close the debate, and rid us of the seething acrimony which has no place in rational discourse. The sociological analysis involving reactions to scholarly colonialism, and conspiracies etc serve to demean anyone who questions "the accepted view", instead of clearly pointing out why they are wrong. It is a roundabout way of crying sacrelige and killing debate. Different schools of thought are inevitable in the social sciences, as models to explain occurences must be necessarily based on some assumptions (axioms). So it is more a matter of difference in shared assumptions which causes folks to diverge in views. As more work is done on this interdisciplinary field, the assumptions (and hence the model) closer to whatever might be the "true" history will be clearer. I do belive that ultimately there will emerge a resolution as the process of historical science keeps crunching, and as always all gaurdians of rational truths are advised not to get attached to them (including myself). As a last hope, perhaps the love of fellow man will resolve this debate...;-) All the best, J.B. Sharma From IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU Sun Sep 18 17:34:00 1994 From: IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (robert l brown) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 10:34:00 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar Message-ID: <161227017297.23782.4895210337410677384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL-------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:38:42 BST > Reply-To: indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK > Sender: indology-request at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK > From: ai927 at FREENET.CARLETON.CA(Noel Evans) > To: Members of the list > Subject: Re: Aryans and Dravidians / Thirumoolar > > >| Tirumantiram (by TirumUlar): one of the earliest treatises of > >| Saiva Siddhanta > > > [stuff omitted] > > > > Question: where is this important work available in English? > > In particular, is there an electronic copy you know of? The > > > > Thirumoolar, Siddhar > Thirumandiram: A Classic of Yoga and Tantra > ed. M. Govindan > illus. Barbara Miller > notes and tr. from the Tamil, Dr B. Natarajan > paperback, 3 vols. > isbn 1 895383 02 1 > Montreal: Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications, 1993 > > I have access to a copy of this although it is not to hand. If you > have any difficulty procuring it let me know and I can *probably* > find out how to get in touch with the publisher. I don't know of > any electronic version. > > noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca > From MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu Sun Sep 18 15:51:56 1994 From: MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu (MAMCGEE at vaxsar.vassar.edu) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 11:51:56 -0400 Subject: Indology group Message-ID: <161227017288.23782.17002554133554536601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Indus Valley Script request made by Jim Hatzell. The late Walter Fairservis came out with a new book about a year and a half ago about this very topic. I do not know the title of the book offhand and have not read it, but Walter told me that it advanced a new theory that broke the coding of the script. If someone else on the network does not mention this book, you might try BIP under authors. Mary McGee From dileep at math.utexas.edu Sun Sep 18 17:10:21 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 12:10:21 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017295.23782.5936223521468489467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 17 Sep 1994, dom wrote: > > What I find wholly unacceptable is the "anything goes, everything is > relative" view expressed by J. B. Sharma. He and I have swapped views > on this before, and I don't want to bore everyone here by regurgitating > the discussion. I believe that there is such a thing as extremely high > probability regarding certain ideas and beliefs (in a Popperian sense). I appreciate your not boring us by regurgitating the discussion. I would be very happy if also cultivate the habit of not inflicting your sweeping judgments on us. J.B. Sharma has not said anything remotely similar to "anything goes". If you think so, please prove it. Or else, indulge in your mud-slinging in private. > > Or am I too pessimistic? You are being very pessimistic indeed. The faculty of buddhi ddoes not show up in your behaviour. Or else you would not make this network your private playground, where the only people who are free to speak are the likes of Rosane Rocher and Richard Lariviere (who make noise about "discrediting the discredited" and "rancid pablum" without mustering the decency to support their slanderous accusations with facts or even plausible explanations.) Dileep Karanth Is there really a faculty of reason, a buddhi, > which can help us to distinguish true from false, as the swan separates > milk from water? And in such a way that we all end up with the same result? > > Dominik > > > From mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca Sun Sep 18 16:34:25 1994 From: mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca (mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 12:34:25 -0400 Subject: Indus Valley Script Message-ID: <161227017290.23782.10824945029551985002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Re: Indus Valley Script request made by Jim Hatzell. The late Walter Fairservis > came out with a new book about a year and a half ago about this very topic. I do not know the title of the book offhand and have not read it, but Walter told > me that it advanced a new theory that broke the coding of the script. If someone else on the network does not mention this book, you might try BIP under authors. Mary McGee > AUTHOR: Fairservis, Walter Ashlin, 1921- TITLE: The Harappan civilization and its writing : a model for the decipherment of the Indus script / by Walter A. Fairservis. PUB. INFO: Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1992. DESCRIPTION: viii, 239 p. : ill., map ; 25 cm. Mitchell Weiss mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca From dileep at math.utexas.edu Sun Sep 18 17:35:30 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 12:35:30 -0500 Subject: Translation of "Les Quatre Sens de la Vie" Message-ID: <161227017299.23782.1509930220160332488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, Does anyone know of an English translation of the book "Les Quatre Sens de la Vie" by Alain Danielou ? I am afraid I do not know who the publisher of the original French book is. The book, I hear has a discussion of the caste system. Thanks in addvance for letting me know, Dileep S Karanth From magier at columbia.edu Sun Sep 18 17:04:08 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 13:04:08 -0400 Subject: PC Windows Devanagari? Message-ID: <161227017292.23782.12255288281061718365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Perhaps it's time for some brave soul (or no-soul) to put together a > FAQ on Asian script fonts for computers. Or is the scene changing so > fast that this would be confusing? YES!!! PLEASE!!! (And a suggestion: enforce explicitness with regard to platform. Mac fonts/Windows fonts/postscript/TeX/Meta/TrueType/screen-bitmap fonts/ etc., etc.). A million thanks to whoever undertakes this... -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ____________________________ 304 International Affairs /// -- David Magier -- \\\ Columbia University ||| Director, AREA STUDIES ||| New York, N.Y. 10027-7296 ||| S&SE Asia, Latin America, ||| 212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-2495 \\\ Mid-East, Slavic, Africa /// --------------------------- magier at columbia.edu From magier at columbia.edu Sun Sep 18 17:15:16 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 13:15:16 -0400 Subject: Indology group Message-ID: <161227017293.23782.7292052950593335650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Re: Indus Valley Script request made by Jim Hatzell. > The late Walter Fairservis came out with a new book about a year and > a half ago about this very topic. I do not know the title... Fairservis, Walter Ashlin, 1921- The Harappan civilization and its writing: a model for the decipherment of the Indus script / by Walter A. Fairservis. -- Leiden; New York: E.J. Brill, 1992. viii, 239 p. : ill., map ; 25 cm. Includes bibliographical references (p. 140-148). ISBN 9004090665 (E.J. Brill: cloth). -- ISBN 8120404912 (Oxford & IBH) -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ____________________________ 304 International Affairs /// -- David Magier -- \\\ Columbia University ||| Director, AREA STUDIES ||| New York, N.Y. 10027-7296 ||| S&SE Asia, Latin America, ||| 212-854-8046 / FAX: 212-854-2495 \\\ Mid-East, Slavic, Africa /// --------------------------- magier at columbia.edu From 0005614754 at mcimail.com Sun Sep 18 21:22:00 1994 From: 0005614754 at mcimail.com (Mantra Corporation) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 16:22:00 -0500 Subject: Fonts/extended char sets Message-ID: <161227017302.23782.138528203859145455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste! I received the following information from a friend in June about Devanagari and related fonts and hope that it is useful. *-=Om Shanti=-* Jai Maharaj 0005614754 at mcimail.com #L Language #M Author/Maintainer #C Contact for getting the font or any questions on the font #I Information on the location (if public domain or free) #O Platform/Operating System Requirements #L Hindi/Gujarati/Sanskrit/Latin #M Vaishnav Books Ltd #C Digitron Computers, Toronto, Canada (905) 454-3620 #C Digitron, 3 Smithers Cr, Brampton, Ontario Canada L6Y 3L3 #P $199 #O Windows #A goyal at bnr.ca (Ashok Goyal) #L Tamil #M Dr. Govindaraj #P $0 #I mac.archive.umich.edu: #I /mac/system.extensions/font/type1/palladam2.1.sit.hqx #I wuarchive.wustl.edu: #I /systems/mac/umich.edu/system.extensions/font/type1/palladam2.1.sit.hqx #O Macintosh #L Hindi/Tamil #M Prof. Hart @ Berkeley #C rbhumbla at ucsd.edu #P $0 #I mac.archive.umich.edu: #I /mac/system.extensions/font/type3/indianfonts.sit.hqx #I wuarchive.wustl.edu: #I /systems/mac/umich.edu/system.extensions/font/type3/indianfonts.sit.hqx #O Macintosh #L All Bharatiye languages #M Ethno Multimedia #C Ethno Multimedia, Toronto Canada #O Macintosh, Windows #A Meenan Vishnu #L Malayalam #M Jeroen Hellingman #C Jeroen Hellingman #P $0 #O TeX/Metafont #L Urdu #M Prof. Klaus Lagally #C lagally at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de #P $0 #I ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de: /pub/TeX/arabtex/arabtex.%*,faq% #I sunsite.unc.edu /pub/packages/TeX/language/arabtex/ #O TeX ## Uses arabic-style naskh fonts, persian-style nastaliq fonts under dev. #L Tamil #M Dr. K. Srinivasan #P $40 (shareware), $0 for non-profit use #I oak.oakland.edu /pub/msdos/editor/adami91.zip #I wuarchive.wustl.edu /mirrors/msdos/editor/adami91.zip #I nic.switch.ch /mirrors/msdos/editor/adami91.zi #O DOS/Windows ## Standalone word processor #L Hindi, Tamil, Bengali, Sanskrit, Marathi, Telugu #M Avinash Chopde #C avinash at acm.org #P $0 #I cs.duke.edu /dist/sources/itrans32.* #I oak.oakland.edu /pub/msdos/tex/itrans32.* #O TeX on Unix/DOS ## .zip for DOS, .tar.Z for Unix #L Standards, Codes #P GBP 20 + GB 2 P&P (GBP 5 overseas) #C Sesame Computer Projects (John Clews) 8, Avenue Road #C Harrogate, North Yorkshire HG2 7PG England Phone: +44-423-888432 #A Jeroen H. #L Devanagari, Sanskrit, Tamil, Punjabi, Tibetan, #C Linguist's Software Box 580 Edmonds, WA 98020 Phone: 206/775-1130 #A Jeroen H. #C "PicaType Ltd." in Pune + Abacus Computers Ltd. of Bombay #C Institute of Typographical Research (ITR), Pune #O Adobe font metrics/Postscript #A Jeroen H. #L Hindi, Marathi, Tamil, Assamese, Kashmiri, Bengali, Telugu, Urdu, #L Sanskrit, Punjabi, Kannada, Gujarati, Sindhi, Oriya, Malayalam, #L and Nepali. #M GIST Technology - by Center for Developement of Advanced Computing, #M Pune #C Mohan Tambe, CDAC, Pune University Campus, Ganeshkhind Pune 411 007 #C INDIA #C tambe at parcom.ernet.in Phone (212)332461, 332483, 332479 Fax (212)337551 #O SCO-XENIX/Any IBM PC compatible running a Unix variant #P $500 #A Jeroen H. ## Hardware card + software included. #L Gujarati, Malayalam(?), Bengali, Tamil #P substantial #O Mac, MS-DOS, etc. #C Linotype-Hell (main office) Bath Road Cheltenham Gloucestershire #C GL53 7LR Tel: 0242 222 333 #A Jeroen H. #P $5.00 for catalog (adjusted with purchase) #C Ecological Linguistics #C P.O. Box 15156 Washington, DC 20003 Phone : 202 546-5826 #A kumar at duck.ncsc.org (Ashwini Kumar [Gupta]) #L Hindi, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, etc. #C H&M Enterprises 8304 N.W. 113 Terrace #C Oklahoma City, OK 73162 Phone: 405 728-0634 (voice & fax) #O PC/XT,AT ## Bilingual word processor for IBM PC/XT and AT as well as clones #A kumar at duck.ncsc.org (Ashwini Kumar [Gupta]) #L Jaipur, Hindustan, v 4.0 (UBCnagari) #P $10 #C Dr. K.E. Bryant Department of Asian Studies #C University of British Columbia #C 1871, West Mall Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1W5 Canada phone: 604 822-3881 #O Mac #A Jeroen H. ## Postscript type 3, Mac-bitmap, keyboard-bindings #L Sanskrit, Hindi, Marathi Nepali, etc. #P $0 #I archive.cs.ruu.nl:/ftp/TEX/FONTS/devnag.tar.Z #O TeX, C, METAFONT source #C Frans J. Velthuis Nyensteinheerd 267 9736 TV Groningen #C The Netherlands #C velthuis at rc.rug.nl #A Jeroen H. #L Bengali #O Windows 3.0 #P $0, copyrighted #I use archie, sgaon.zip Sonar Gaon #C Anisur Rahman 722 N. 13th Street, #505 Milwaukee, WI 53233 #C (414) 223-3152. #L Telugu #O Metafont + TeX #I blackbox.hacc.washington.edu: pub/tex/telugu (temporary) #C Lakshmankumar Mukkavilli & Lakshmi Mukkavilli 915 Almaden Avenue #C Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA email: lzk60 at css.amdahl.com #A haccme at milton.u.washington.edu (Thomas Ridgeway) #L Tamil #O itrans (source in this post) or C + TeX with included preprocessor #P $0 #I ymir.claremont.edu:[TEX.BABEL.TAMIL]*.* #C Humanities and Arts Computing Center of the U. of Washington, USA. #C ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu #A Jeroen H. * * * From Peter_Scharf at brown.edu Sun Sep 18 20:44:33 1994 From: Peter_Scharf at brown.edu (Peter_Scharf at brown.edu) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 16:44:33 -0400 Subject: Fonts/extended char sets Message-ID: <161227017301.23782.1712908121314616270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To all Mac Devanagari Font users, There have been a couple of complaints on the network recently about the the reliance of Devanagari and Roman diacritic Fonts on the extended character set. Use of the extended character set to represent Sanskrit (or Hindi, etc) makes it difficult for certain standard computer tools to handle the language properly. For instance programs to transfer ASCII files will not be able to interpret some of the characters not included in the standard ASCII character set. It was to meet just this type of difficulty that I designed a screen Font (bit map font) to represent Sanskrit sounds using just the upper and lower case keys. The entire character set of this Font is a subset of the ASCII character set making it simple to use with all standard searching, and data transmission programs. The Font also makes it easier to type Sanskrit, which was an additional reason for its design. Devanagari Fonts are very cumbersome to use by virtue of having numerous keys for a single sound depending upon the context of the sound. This is an inherited feature of the script which is not posible for any Devanagari Font to overcome, even if it makes serious compromises to the large set of conjunct characters. In order to get Devanagari in a beautiful Laser Font (or for that matter, to get Roman Diacritics in a laser Font without hunting up special keys) one may use a program I have written to transliterate from my easy-to-type-in and easy-to-use-general-computer-applications-on Font to a couple of Devanagari and a few Roman diacritic laser Fonts. I have used this system to type lengthy files entirely in Sanskrit and have found that I can type Sanskrit as quickly as English (my first language). I have also written a program to do Sanskrit sandhi on files in my Font and intend to make it the standard for programs to alphabetize and do other linguistic functions on Sanskrit. My transliteration program currently transliterates to Jaipur and Vedic (Devanagari Fonts) and Hindustan and South Asia Times (Roman diacritic Fonts). Plans are currently under way to include Ken Bryant's Jaisalmer and Taj True-type Devanagari and Roman diacritic Fonts and Madhav Deshpande's Laser Fonts. If anyone has made, sells, or uses True-type or Postscript Laser Devanagari or Roman Fonts they would like my transliteration program to transliterate to, I will adapt my program to do so if they send me the Font or tell me how to get it. Sincerely, Peter M. Scharf Department of Classics Brown University PO Box 1856 Providence, RI 02912 e-mail:Peter_Scharf at brown.edu p.s. Concerning: Mac fonts/Windows fonts/postscript/TeX/Meta/TrueType/screen-bitmap fonts/ etc., etc.). Madhav Deshpande wrote a summary of Indic linguistic tools available for computers which appeared in the Newsletter of the American Oriental Society about a year and a half ago (issue and page numbers are not at hand at the moment). Perhaps an update is due. P.S. From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Sun Sep 18 22:43:14 1994 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 06:43:14 +0800 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017306.23782.9318875516038813546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I must say that I find Mr. Dileep Karath's tone a bit like that which he criticizes in others. I'm not sure who he means by the sweeping use of 'us', but I have found much of the discussion of the Aryan/Dravidian topic something less than scholarly in its assumptions and intentions. I am not objecting ... only pointing out ... but as one of 'us', I do not feel that the discussion has gone beyond the bounds of academic debate, not even the censorial buddhi tone Mr. Karanth introduces. Peter Claus From lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 19 13:32:18 1994 From: lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu (merry burlingham) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 08:32:18 -0500 Subject: Computer font info Message-ID: <161227017304.23782.8543574211847608099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The ANU Asian Computing database is searchable and contains postings on Indic fonts. They should be able to add descriptions of new fonts to what already exists. Merry Burlingham, South Asia Librarian, UT-Austin From dileep at math.utexas.edu Mon Sep 19 15:25:46 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 10:25:46 -0500 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017309.23782.5756228176853250135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Peter Claus wrote: > I must say that I find Mr. Dileep Karath's tone a bit like that > which he criticizes in others. I'm not sure who he means by > the sweeping use of 'us', You are right -- I shoould have said 'me' instead of 'us'. Thanks for pointing it out. but I have found much of the discussion > of the Aryan/Dravidian topic something less than scholarly in > its assumptions and intentions. I am not objecting ... only > pointing out ... but as one of 'us', I do not feel that the > discussion has gone beyond the bounds of academic debate, not > even the censorial buddhi tone Mr. Karanth introduces. I did not introduce the buddhi tone -- It was in Dominik's original hate-mail. Dileep Karanth > Peter Claus > > From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Mon Sep 19 14:27:14 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 10:27:14 -0400 Subject: Aryan and Non-aryan ... Message-ID: <161227017307.23782.2701887640168874797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bravo! Dominik. I think we needed a crisp comment like this. Madhav Deshpande From z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Mon Sep 19 16:03:33 1994 From: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Aditya Mishra) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 12:03:33 -0400 Subject: Computer font info Message-ID: <161227017310.23782.16866127428054937467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You forgot to give the address of ANU. Please let me khow how to explore it. Aditya Mishra Phone/FAX 305-746-0442 (Please leave message) email: z900672a at bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us PRODIGY: TVDS96A On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, merry burlingham wrote: > The ANU Asian Computing database is searchable and contains postings on > Indic fonts. They should be able to add descriptions of new fonts to what > already exists. > > Merry Burlingham, South Asia Librarian, UT-Austin > > From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Sep 19 18:10:49 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 12:10:49 -0600 Subject: personalizing the debate Message-ID: <161227017314.23782.17433193061573034180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suspect that Dominik is too much a gentleman to respond directly to Mr. Karanth, and while I can certainly not claim to speak on Dominik's behalf, I think many on this list will agree with me that labeling his comments "hate mail" is really crossing a line. There *is* such a thing as "hate mail," but I very much doubt whether Dominik has ever authored an example, and I have absolutely never noticed one authored by HIM on this list! It is up to Mr. Karanth's conscience to judge how he considers his own tone in this discusssion. Might I suggest that we try to avoid personalizing this -- or any other -- debate? The free flow of ideas is, I have always understood, what scholarship is (supposed, anyway) to be all about -- and this list has, in general, been representative of that tradition. But if INDOLOGY becomes a forum for politicized rhetoric and personal invictive, those of us who are here because we enjoy scholarly debate and exchange with our colleages in a trusting and intellectually honest enviroment might as well all send the "unsubscribe" message right away. Without wanting to usurp the discussion unto myself, I hope I can close with "enough said?" Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Mon Sep 19 04:23:15 1994 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 12:23:15 +0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227017317.23782.12323852228256304892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: September 19, 1994 Indology List indology at Liverpool.ac.uk Dear Members, Is there any one on the list who is a specialist (actually a generalist) on the Eastern Himalayan States of India (ie. Sikkim eastward) and who would like to write an article about the region for an encyclopedia of South Asia folklore? Or specific folklore topics (genres; from oral narrative to art and material culture) in that region? Or do you know anyone who IS a specialist on that region and MIGHT like to write on it? (Please include their address if possible.) Please send responses to me personally at the addresses and numbers below. Peter J. Claus fax: 510-727-2276 Phone: 510-704-9636 pclaus at .csuhayward.edu : From lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 19 17:31:16 1994 From: lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu (merry burlingham) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 12:31:16 -0500 Subject: Computer font info Message-ID: <161227017315.23782.16378720162053906619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The URL (Uniform Resource Locator) for the searchable databases at ANU is: http://cheops.anu.edu/11/Cooms-db ANU's variety of Coombs databases can also be accessed using a gopher client such as Turbogopher. In addition to the wais searchable files, they have separate sections for most of the Asian nations with links to related sites/files around the world. It's a very useful resource. Merry From ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca Mon Sep 19 16:55:54 1994 From: ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca (ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 12:55:54 -0400 Subject: translation of Les quatre sens de la vie Message-ID: <161227017312.23782.3904401611362093451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dileep Karanth just said: > Does anyone know of an English translation of the book "Les Quatre Sens > de la Vie" by Alain Danielou ? > > I am afraid I do not know who the publisher of the original French book > is. The book, I hear has a discussion of the caste system. Here is the information on the French text. I don't know of an English version, but I will check the French book to see if it mentions one. I will send you a direct email about that on Friday, which is the soonest I can inspect the book. auth Danie'lou, Alain bind paperback isbn 2 268 01403 7 pub at Monaco pub Editions du Rocher pub date 1992 title *Les quatre sens de la vie: et la structure de l'Inde traditionelle ... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu Mon Sep 19 20:08:10 1994 From: lyaa101 at uts.cc.utexas.edu (merry burlingham) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 15:08:10 -0500 Subject: Error in URL Message-ID: <161227017318.23782.7336490235417721925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is the sort of thing one dreads... Cooms should, of course, be Coombs in the ANU address. Sorry. Merry From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Mon Sep 19 20:47:20 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 16:47:20 -0400 Subject: B.G Tilak and his theories Message-ID: <161227017320.23782.3291378219629348561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to point out that one should not place B.G. Tilak and his theory about the arctic home in the Vedas in the same boat as the theories of some of the other names mentioned, and especially the theories coming out of the RSS, VHP, BJP mode of scholarship. While Tilak's theories may safely be abandoned now, one needs to recognize that his theory was based on considerations of astronomy etc. and not on considerations like the modern politicized Aryanism of the VHP, BJP type authors. In fact, at the beginning of his work, Tilak clearly states that his ideas will displease a lot of traditionalists for whom the eternal Vedas cannot contain any historical information. Additionally, he was willing to consider a home for the Aryans outside of India proper, and that did not seem to hurt his individual pride. Therefore, his motivations in proposing his theory were not of the same kind. Madhav Deshpande From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Mon Sep 19 21:42:53 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 21:42:53 +0000 Subject: B.G Tilak and his theories Message-ID: <161227017321.23782.9963040497652322586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to point out that one should not place B.G. Tilak and his theory about the arctic home in the Vedas in the same boat as the theories of some of the other names mentioned, and especially the theories coming out of the RSS, VHP, BJP mode of scholarship. While Tilak's theories may safely be abandoned now, one needs to recognize that his theory was based on considerations of astronomy etc. and not on considerations like the modern politicized Aryanism of the VHP, BJP type authors. In fact, at the beginning of his work, Tilak clearly states that his ideas will displease a lot of traditionalists for whom the eternal Vedas cannot contain any historical information. Additionally, he was willing to consider a home for the Aryans outside of India proper, and that did not seem to hurt his individual pride. Therefore, his motivations in proposing his theory were not of the same kind. Madhav Deshpande ------------- A most interesting note, and it raises several questions in my mind; 1) What is modern politicized Aryanism of VHP, BJP ? What basic tenets does this particular school espouse ? 2) Is one of the bones of contention the question of an Aryan homeland ? Is homeland equivalent to the place where a particular group of people gestated for some time to forge this particular identity, or the geographic origin of a specific identifiable race ? These are sincere questions, and any answers will be appreciated. Regards, J.B. Sharma From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue Sep 20 05:14:29 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 94 23:14:29 -0600 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017325.23782.13152388782951830748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to have a special knack for making myself mis-understood on this list. I did not (or did not intend) to suggest, as Bo Sax says, "that we close the discussion now to avoid further acrimony. " I meant merely to suggest that it should be possible to carry on the discussion (for as long as the participants have energy and interest) in a spirit of mutual respect and of civility, avoiding the urge to shift the focus from the "facts" (such as they may be) to the personalities of the discussants. This is not a call to end the discussion, but merely to moderate its tone. ala.m vivaadena jonathan silk Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From dileep at math.utexas.edu Tue Sep 20 15:25:20 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: personalizing debate-- My last word Message-ID: <161227017328.23782.15488497478582024232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I think many on this list will agree with me that labeling his comments > "hate mail" is really crossing a line. There *is* such a thing as "hate > mail," but I very much doubt whether Dominik has ever authored an example, > and I have absolutely never noticed one authored by HIM on this list! It > is up to Mr. Karanth's conscience to judge how he considers his own tone in > this discusssion. How about this? What I find wholly unacceptable is the "anything goes, everything is relative" view expressed by J. B. Sharma. - Dominik Note that this statement was not qualified or supported by argument. The original statement by J.B.Sharma was not quoted and criticized. How am I supposed to believe that this is not an ad hominem criticism of J.B.Sharma. If Mr. Sharma's sources (as determined from a private conversation which did not spill over to the indology net) are indeed of the same quality as Eric von Daniken's book, they should be easy to refute. The refutation could then be put on the listserver (an idea Dominik suggested to me in the course of an earlier argument with him) so that the discussion can be prevented from straying too far afield. > Might I suggest that we try to avoid personalizing this -- or any > other -- debate? Entendu. Only please remind the author of the following about it: "What I find wholly unacceptable is the "anything goes, everything is relative" view expressed by J. B. Sharma." -Dominik > But if INDOLOGY becomes a > forum for politicized rhetoric and personal invictive, The only people who have smelt politics have been those speaking on behalf of Dominik -- yourself, Madhav Deshpande, and Dominik. Why impute motives to people? If their arguments are wrong/laughable, point out the mistakes. Credit people with enough intelligence to make intelligent choices when the facts are placed in front of them. I have myself not read any book on this subject -- only articles by writers of various persuasions. I am apt to be convinced by each article I read. When people speak of others as advocating that "anything goes", I have no reason to believe their motives are sincere. >those of us who are > here because we enjoy scholarly debate and exchange with our colleages in a > trusting and intellectually honest enviroment might as well all send the > "unsubscribe" message right away. If you are in the network only to find fault with people who disagree, and to confirm your own (possibly biased) notions, maybe you should form a network called "Indology-Dominik style" . You can tell Chris Wooff to include a message to new members not to join unless they are willing to agree with all you want to say. That way trouble-makers like me will not interfere with "scholarly debate". > Without wanting to usurp the discussion unto myself, I hope I can > close with "enough said?" Me too. I promise this is my last word. I apologise to people who were not interested in this debate for burdening their mailboxes, and thank them for not getting back at me. Dileep Karanth From dileep at math.utexas.edu Tue Sep 20 17:01:40 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:01:40 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians: Summary for non-experts by non-expert Message-ID: <161227017330.23782.17303320868748430181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 Sep 1994 phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote: > > Originally it was claimed that "new evidence" of some kind called > the whole theory of Aryan migration into question. But it turned > out that there wasn't much, if any, new evidence of a scholarly > sort, and in any case that most of us have already aborbed the > implications of the evidence (e.g. that the Indus Valley > Civilization was not suddenly destroyed by waves of attacking > Aryans). > > Perhaps all the facts are not in yet. Is there indeed any new or > noteworthy evidence about Aryan origins, migrations, etc., that > hasn't yet been discussed? Would anyone care to summarize it for > non-experts like myself? Let me tell you what little is intelligible to a non-expert and biased mind like mine. The writers of the Kak/Frawley school (including others like Shrikant Talageri, Koenraad Elst (to a certain extent), Navaratna Rajaram (who calls it the "Indo-American School)) claim that : 1) The chronology of the civilization(s) of India as generally agreed upon by Western (for want of a better word in my vocabulary) needs to be revised. This, they say, follows from an examination of the assumptions of the original formulators of the theory. For instance, Max Mueller has actually said that the Vedas could not have been composed before some date, because the world was only created at some date etc (or something to that effect). Koenraad Elst does point out that a conspiracy theory could not posibly be true. Generations of Indologists could not possibly have faked evrything. But he does not rule out that some of the old stalwarts may have missionary motives, and the later indologists may have taken their assumptions for granted. A similar thing has happened in other branches of Indian history. For instance, modern Indian Historians do not concede that the Puranas are historical source material. (I generalise for simplicity only). Earlier Marxist historians like Kosambi did treat the Puranas as source material for history. However modern historians who do not significantly modify Kosambi's conclusions nevertheless sweep away inconsistencies that would arise by a reading of the Puranas more seriously (eg Ravana's being a Brahmin is a challenge to some conclusions of the Marxists theorists who believe in the Aryan invasion theory) by saying that the Puranas are not to be taken seriously. But they hide that their basic premises would then also have to be abandodned. A similar thing, the Kak/Frawley says school also happens in the case of Western Aryan-theory-wallahs. Perhaps modern historians have revised the invasion theory, but they have not revised the chronolgy and the dating of the Indus valley etc. (I do have any knowledge to comment one way or the other -- but I do believe that this point needs to be thrashed out in our discussions) 2) The Kak school also says that the Rig Veda was the work of a people based on the Saraswati river. Which is further in the heartland of India. They claim that many new archaeological discoveries have been made, on the basis of a reading of the Rig Veda. This leaves them with little doubt that the Sarasvati river as found by geologists is the same Sarasvati of the Rig Veda. They then conclude that in this light it can be said that the Vedas only know of "India". There is no mention of places other than in India in the Vedas. There is no a priori reason to believe that Aryans came from outside India. (The Iranian scriptures talk of an Iranvej as their ancient homeland, but Indian scriptures only talk of India). 3) The only thing that can be said conclusively is that the languages of India, and of many other countries to its west and north show many similarities. But these could equally well be due to the migration of Indians westward. I think that the Kak school is saying that there is as yet nothing that can clinch the issue of the direction of migration. In a review of Frawley's book, Kak says that Frawley speculates that India was the original homeland of the Aryans. Kak does not insist that it is already an established fact. The Kak school thinks that the Western pictures cannot be salvaged simply by saying that the Aryans enterd India after the Indus valley civilization declined. They claim that the Indus-wallahs were actually the western branches of the Sarasvati-based civilization, and so the whole idea that Aryans came to India is an unnecessary assumption. The earlier ideas which had necissated the postulation of Aryan outsiders in India simply need not arise. It may well be true that the whole Kak/Frawley theory is as trivial as daniken's book. But so far nothing said on this net has made it clear. ( Aside: Kak's book has been published by the Voice of India Publications. The VOI is not part of the BJP or RSS. It has in fact criticised the BJP and the RSS in three or four of its publications, though not in the way many leftists would like. It is another matter that certain people who largely (not entirely) support the BJP or the RSS, also subscribe to the opinions of the VOI. I say this with confidence, because I have the following VOI publications in electronic form (and permission from the publishers to share them freely): Perversion of India's Political Parlance (Sita Ram Goel) Hindu Society Under Siege (Sita Ram Goel) Hindus and Hinduism: Manipulation of Meanings (Sita Ram Goel) Cultural Self-Alienation and Some Problems Hinduism Faces (Ram Swarup) Dileep Karanth From kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu Tue Sep 20 19:00:16 1994 From: kichenas at s5.math.umn.edu (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:00:16 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians: Summary for non-experts by non-expert Message-ID: <161227017333.23782.14604186297905395304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent message, Dileep Karanth says: [...] 3) The only thing that can be said conclusively is that the languages of India, and of many other countries to its west and north show many similarities. But these could equally well be due to the migration of Indians westward. I think that the Kak school is saying that there is as [...] I think he was referring to the Indo-European languages of India. A theory which does not take into account the existence of the Dravidian group cannot be considered to be completely satisfactory. Satyanad Kichenassamy School of Mathematics U. of Minnesota kichenas at math.umn.edu From phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Sep 20 02:30:09 1994 From: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:30:09 +1200 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017323.23782.6103927126920555693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk has suggested that we close the discussion now to avoide further acrimony. While I sympathize with his motivations, I would like to keep it open for just a bit longer. Originally it was claimed that "new evidence" of some kind called the whole theory of Aryan migration into question. But it turned out that there wasn't much, if any, new evidence of a scholarly sort, and in any case that most of us have already aborbed the implications of the evidence (e.g. that the Indus Valley Civilization was not suddenly destroyed by waves of attacking Aryans). Perhaps all the facts are not in yet. Is there indeed any new or noteworthy evidence about Aryan origins, migrations, etc., that hasn't yet been discussed? Would anyone care to summarize it for non-experts like myself? If there really isn't much in the way of evidence, then an important question arises: where are these assertions (about "new" evidence calling the Aryan migration hypothesis into question, about the evils of colonial and neo-colonial scholarship, etc.) being made, and why? These are matters of cultural and representational politics, and they seem to me to be eminently worthy of debate, even if (or better, "especially because") they tend to excite rather more passion than philological discussion. Bo Sax Head of Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch-I New Zealand Tel. (03) 364-2230 FAX (03) 364-2007 e-mail: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz From Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch Tue Sep 20 14:37:06 1994 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch (Johannes.Bronkhorst at orient.unil.ch) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:37:06 +0000 Subject: Louis Dumont Message-ID: <161227017326.23782.2038930458531383745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to a recent question by Nobumi Iyanaga concerning Louis Dumont, I would like to draw attention to a short article which I have written and which is called "Louis Dumont et les renon?ants indiens". The article has not yet come out, and may take some time doing so. Meanwhile I am ready to send copies to those who are interested and send me their postal address. Johannes Bronkhorst From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue Sep 20 20:57:03 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:57:03 -0600 Subject: What is India? Message-ID: <161227017336.23782.17342617476599840431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his recent summary of the Aryan Invasion theory Mr. Dileep Karanth has repeatedly used the word "India." He is certainly not alone is his unnuanced use of this designation, which, it seems to me, especially in the present context is an inadvisable term -- and indeed it may be that Mr. Karanth himself is only reporting the usage of the authors whose views he is presenting. (I would like to assure him that I am not singling him out here.) I merely want to bring up the question: What does "India" mean? Does it refer only to the present political borders of the nation of India? I doubt it, but I am not sure what is intended with the term. Sometimes we try to play fast and loose with this by using "South Asia," but without a definition this is hardly more helpful (although it avoids confusion with the State of India). I would note in this regard that some time ago G. Fussman published a couple of papers in the _Annuaire du College de France_ in which he discussed definitions of "India" in different classical sources. I do not have the articles at hand just at the moment, but if I recall correctly he discussed European (Classical) sources, and also native "Indian" sources in his examination. Perhaps someone with access to Fussman's work can post the exact references for interested readers. It might clarify at least part of the discussion if "India" were defined by those who use the term in the formulations of their theses. Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Tue Sep 20 19:15:48 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 15:15:48 -0400 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017335.23782.18150817202796114517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was struck by the following sentence in Mr. Dileep Karanth's recent note: "I have myself not read any book on this subject -- only articles by writers of various pursuasions. I am apt to be convinced by each article I read." While I cannot speak for others on Indology, I can speak for myself that I have not only read a lot of books on this subject, but have written a few hundred pages on it in books and articles, and I cannot say that I am convinced by each article I read. This situation only brings out the imbalances in the current dialogue going on Indology. Mr. Karanth's above quoted statement is clear enough. Unless, for example, he reads intelligently the few thousand pages worth quality research which is out there in the libraries, I am not sure who can have a meaningful dialogue with him. If a student in my class comes to me to discuss a topic without having read any of the required assignments, I normally ask him to go back and read those assignments first. Here, somehow, there is an expectation on the part of some at least, that one would enter into a worthwhile discussion to convince someone who has"not read any book on this subject." I hope that we agree to think realistically that meaningful debate is possible only when both parties have prepared well for it. However, when I read comments like "the publications in America are too academic", I am really offended. Indology is supposed to be a network of people who are dedicated to being "academic" in the best ways known to us. However, a person, who tells us with all honesty that he/she has "not read any book on this subject", has to do a good deal of the required reading of a few thousand pages before being vocal on this network. Madhav Deshpande From dileep at math.utexas.edu Tue Sep 20 20:47:57 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 15:47:57 -0500 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017340.23782.776475748300812653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Deshpande, I do not need to read a few thousand pages to be sure that a mail which says that somebody believes that "anything goes" without actually giving us his argument is not acceptable. I am glad you at least took the trouble to read my posting, if only to criticise it on some trivial grounds. I will let you get back to reading the few thousand pages which (and not an open mind) are the qualifications recognised by the Dominik-fan club. You have not yet grasped the point that I am only criticising the attitude of using authority to settle disputes. Or perhaps you have, but you use the same strategies yourself (and so have been initiated into the inner circle of indologists) Again, the fact that you have no arguments to defend your supercilious behaviour is clearly brought out by the fact Jiten Sharma's polite and sincere questions (which ignore your impolite behaviour) are as yet not answered. Maybe I should not even expect sane arguments in a discussion group where a person who criticises a purely private discussion in public is called a gentleman. "Ushtranam hi vivasheshu mantran gayanti gardabhah, Parasparam Prashansanti aho roopamaho dhvanih" Please go back to scratching each others backs, ushtras and gardabhas. Dileep On Tue, 20 Sep 1994 madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu wrote: > I was struck by the following sentence in Mr. Dileep Karanth's recent > note: "I have myself not read any book on this subject -- only articles by > writers of various pursuasions. I am apt to be convinced by each article I > read." While I cannot speak for others on Indology, I can speak for myself > that I have not only read a lot of books on this subject, but have written > a few hundred pages on it in books and articles, and I cannot say that I am > convinced by each article I read. This situation only brings out the > imbalances in the current dialogue going on Indology. Mr. Karanth's > above quoted statement is clear enough. Unless, for example, he reads > intelligently the few thousand pages worth quality research which is out > there in the libraries, I am not sure who can have a meaningful dialogue > with him. If a student in my class comes to me to discuss a topic without > having read any of the required assignments, I normally ask him to go back > and read those assignments first. Here, somehow, there is an expectation > on the part of some at least, that one would enter into a worthwhile > discussion to convince someone who has"not read any book on this subject." > I hope that we agree to think realistically that meaningful debate is > possible only when both parties have prepared well for it. However, when > I read comments like "the publications in America are too academic", I > am really offended. Indology is supposed to be a network of people who are > dedicated to being "academic" in the best ways known to us. However, a > person, who tells us with all honesty that he/she has "not read any book > on this subject", has to do a good deal of the required reading of a few > thousand pages before being vocal on this network. > Madhav Deshpande > > From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Sep 20 16:10:12 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 16:10:12 +0000 Subject: personalizing the debate Message-ID: <161227017338.23782.16530686170206724763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote : I suspect that Dominik is too much a gentleman to respond directly to Mr. Karanth, and while I can certainly not claim to speak on Dominik's behalf, I think many on this list will agree with me that labeling his comments "hate mail" is really crossing a line. There *is* such a thing as "hate mail," but I very much doubt whether Dominik has ever authored an example, and I have absolutely never noticed one authored by HIM on this list! It is up to Mr. Karanth's conscience to judge how he considers his own tone in this discusssion. Might I suggest that we try to avoid personalizing this -- or any other -- debate? The free flow of ideas is, I have always understood, what scholarship is (supposed, anyway) to be all about -- and this list has, in general, been representative of that tradition. But if INDOLOGY becomes a forum for politicized rhetoric and personal invictive, those of us who are here because we enjoy scholarly debate and exchange with our colleages in a trusting and intellectually honest enviroment might as well all send the "unsubscribe" message right away. Without wanting to usurp the discussion unto myself, I hope I can close with "enough said?" -------- Almost... I agree with the high ideals and morality involved in sholarly debate. Dileep did overstep the bounds in his outburst, and so the rap on the knuckles is deserved. I am however surprised on this high moral ground overlooking the obvious, which I am sure was not missed by the most thoughtful of the scholars on the list. Sometimes it is vulgar to state the obvious, and on the same hand sometimes silence gives credence to accusations. It is matter of record on Dominik labelling me as advocating " anything goes, and all is relative", and then giving reference to personal correspondence. Gentlemen and scholars do not do that, even if I did write such a thing to him (which I did not). This is a method of invoking the "good old boys network", which is to the effect "this guy is irrational.. trust me ... I know as we have corresponded". This has no bearing on what I have written in this discussion, and is plainly trying to make an intellectual point by vilification. This is even more egregious a sin coming from a scholar established in the field; and if this is not personalizing the debate, I leave it to seekers of truth on the list to make their judgements. The civility of the discussion ended right there, before the appearence of Dileeps note. So, it is not a matter of great moral courage to deride Dileep, and by the same standards stroke Dominik; this presents a glaring logical inconsistency, which seriously erodes credibility... J.B. Sharma From magier at columbia.edu Tue Sep 20 20:55:31 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 16:55:31 -0400 Subject: 10/94 Veda and Ayurveda in the Western World Message-ID: <161227017341.23782.9256320882497225426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HEALTH, SCIENCE AND THE SPIRIT: VEDA AND AYURVEDA IN THE WESTERN WORLD Inaugural Conference of the Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center Columbia University in the City of New York October 28 - 29, 1994 Kellogg Center School of International and Public Affairs Columbia University 420 West 118th Street New York, NY FRIDAY, OCTOBER 28, 1994 8:30 a.m. Registration and Continental Breakfast 9:00 a.m. Welcomes Jack Hawley, PhD, Acting Director, Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center Hon. Harry Cahill, President, The Hinduja Foundation S. P. Hinduja, Chairman, The Hinduja Foundation 9:30 a.m. Address Science and the Spirit: A Century of Dialogue between India and America Diana Eck, PhD, Harvard University 10:45 a.m. Refreshment Break 11:00 a.m. Roundtable Discussion: The Meaning of Science and Health in Indian Religion Abroad Moderator: Paul Solman, Business Correspondent, MacNeil-Lehrer NewsHour Discussants: (on the Vedanta Society) Richard Seager, PhD, Hamilton College and William Conrad, physicist (on Transcendental Meditation) Alan Hodder, PhD, Hampshire College and Nancy Lonsdorf, M.D., Maharishi Ayurvedic Medical Center (on ISKCON) Shrivatsa Goswami, Sri Chaitanya Prema Sansthana and Joseph Sylvester (Bhagavat Das) 1:00 p.m. Buffet Lunch 2:30 p.m. Address Modern Insight into Ancient Wisdom about the Quantum Mechanical Body: Subtle and Causal Bodies as Understood in Ayurveda Deepak Chopra, MD Executive Director, Sharp Institute for Human Potential and Mind-Body Medicine 3:45 p.m. Refreshment break 4:00 p.m. Ayurveda in India: An Overview Moderator: Kenneth G. Zysk, PhD, New York University Tradition and Practice: Origins and Development of Ayurveda in India Francis Zimmermann, PhD, College de France Ayurveda in India Today R. H. Singh, PhD, Institute of Medical Sciences, Banaras Hindu University 6:00 p.m. Conference reception SATURDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1994 8:30 a.m. Registration and Continental Breakfast 9:00 a.m. Spirituality and Health: Ayurvedic Treatment in the Modern World Moderator: Kenneth G. Zysk, PhD, New York University Rejuvenation Therapy Scott Gerson, MD, New York City Ayurveda: The Science of Self-Healing Vasant Lad, The Ayurvedic Institute Veda in Human Physiology & Overview of Maharishi Ayurveda Research Hari Sharma, MD, FRCPC, College of Medicine, The Ohio State University 11:45 a.m. Refreshment break 12:00 noon Ayurveda in the Clinical Setting: Specific Health Problems Moderator: Fredi Kronenberg, PhD, Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Center, College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University R. H. Singh: Asthma/Skin Disorders Nancy Lonsdorf: Women's Health Problems Robert Svoboda: 1:30 p.m. Buffet Lunch/informal discussion of Ayurvedic treatments for specific conditions & other topics. Preregistration by topic will be required at the conference: Hepatitis: (to be announced) Skin Disorders: R. H. Singh Toxic Effects of Chemotherapy: Deepak Chopra Women's Health: Nancy Lonsdorf Pancakarma: (to be announced) Kayakalpa: (to be announced) Immune Functions: (to be announced) [Other topics to be determined] 3:00 p.m. Toward the Future: Policy Options, Research Needs Moderator: Craig Heller, PhD, Dept. of Biological Sciences, Stanford University Methodological Issues in Research Hari Sharma, M.D., FRCPC, College of Medicine, The Ohio State University Research Strategies with Herbs Michael Balick, PhD, Institute of Economic Botany, New York Botanical Gardens Reconciling the Traditions of Ayurveda and Western Medicine: The Importance of Methodology Craig Heller, PhD, Dept. of Biological Sciences, Stanford University Establishing Therapeutic Efficacy in Alternative Medicine Geoffrey P. Redmond, MD, Pres., Foundation for Developmental Endocrinology, Inc. 5:00 p.m. Adjournment -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Registration fee: $ 100 (Columbia students and faculty, $ 25) Fee includes 2 continental breakfasts, 2 lunches and Friday evening reception. To register: Send a check or money order to: The Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center Columbia University, Box 59 420 W. 118th Street, NYC 10027. Include your full name, mailing address, telephone number and professional affiliation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= About the Dharam Hinduja Indic Research Center: The Center was established at Columbia University by Srichand P. Hinduja on May 19, 1994 in memory of his late son, Dharam, a student in America who cared deeply about human and spiritual values and the betterment of relations between India and the Unite d States. The Hinduja Group, a worldwide business complex run by the four Hinduja brothers, is active in international trade, finance, banking, manufacturing, power, transport, telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, industrial project development, petroleum and lubr icants. With offices in Europe, India, the Middle East, the Far East and the United States, the Group employs 20,000 people. Through the Hinduja Foundations in India, Europe and America, the Hinduja family makes resources available for philanthropic activities in the areas of health, education, social welfare, art, culture, and sports. The Center at Columbia, dedicated to res earch on the Veda (the earliest religious texts in an Indo-European language) and the later Vedanta (philosophical texts) of India, works closely with other leading universities and scholars throughout America, sponsoring research, seminars, and conferenc es. The Center has also funded positions at Columbia for research and teaching in Sanskrit and classical Hinduism. Beginning in 1995, it will offer doctoral and post-doctoral fellowships as well. From s-collins at uchicago.edu Tue Sep 20 23:40:34 1994 From: s-collins at uchicago.edu (s-collins at uchicago.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 17:40:34 -0600 Subject: Louis Dumont Message-ID: <161227017343.23782.9482071919475801639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In reply to a recent question by Nobumi Iyanaga concerning Louis Dumont, I >would like to draw attention to a short article which I have written and >which is called "Louis Dumont et les renongants indiens". The article has >not yet come out, and may take some time doing so. Meanwhile I am ready to >send copies to those who are interested and send me their postal address. > >Johannes Bronkhorst > > Please send it to Steven Collins, SALC, University of Chicago, 1130 E.59th. Street, Chicago IL 60637, U.S.A. From drdj at mail.utexas.edu Tue Sep 20 23:01:05 1994 From: drdj at mail.utexas.edu (drdj at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 18:01:05 -0500 Subject: Dissertation of Dr. M.G.S. Narayanan Message-ID: <161227017344.23782.5881253705979845784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >To:H-ASIA at uicvm.uic.edu >From:drdj at mail.utexas.edu (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) >Subject:Dissertation of Dr. M.G.S. Narayanan > >I am desperately searching for a copy of Dr. M.G.S. Narayanan's Ph.D. >Dissertation entitled, "Political and Social Conditions of Kerala under the >Kulasekhara Empire, c. 800-1124 A.D.," University of Kerala, Trivandrum. 1972. > > >Although Dr. Narayanan tells me that his dissertation is scheduled for >publication, my needs are unfortunately more immediate. Does anyone have a >copy that he or she would be willing to photocopy and send to me? Of course, >I will reimburse you for any and all costs. Thanks. > Donald R. Davis, Jr. drdj at mail.utexas.edu Center for Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin From conlon at u.washington.edu Wed Sep 21 05:29:39 1994 From: conlon at u.washington.edu (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 22:29:39 -0700 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017349.23782.18075269354930721175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With full respect to the likelihood that Mr. Karanth, in his own innocent virtue, really believes that an offhand characterization of the arguments of J. B. Sharma somehow do a great wrong to Sharmaji, let me say that from my perspective, "why not give it a rest?" I have refrained from entering into the slanging around this issue, but Mr. Karanth, whom I believe to be an honorable, but substantially unqualified commentator on the history of India, persists. Why not leave it alone? Probably because, like a whole cohort of Indo-North American science types, he feels that he is perfectly qualified to discuss Indian history on the basis of his Indianness, whereas if I were to offer some hare-brained intervention on his particular field of scientific knowledge, he would, in the terminology of the Simpsons, have a cow. Don't misunderstand me, he's entitled to his opinion, as for that matter are those scoundrels LaRiviere and Rocher, but the posturings of the "interested parties", and the expectation that we are all supposed to fall down and ignore one hundred years of scholarship just because one or two new dudes have had an inspiration strikes me as pushing the envelope just a tad beyond the believable. But, of course, I may have it all wrong. In which case, just have a nice day and stay tuned. Frank Conlon From JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU Tue Sep 20 22:32:29 1994 From: JSHARMA at Hermes.GC.PeachNet.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 22:32:29 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017348.23782.4389200933869382317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satyanad wrote; I think he was referring to the Indo-European languages of India. A theory which does not take into account the existence of the Dravidian group cannot be considered to be completely satisfactory. -------- I think that Satyanad's point serves to focus the discussion. No history of India can be complete without a clear understanding of the early Aryan-Dravidian interaction. As Colin Renfrew's work suggests, the Indo-Europeans were cultivators of land and that their expansion was "kinder and gentler" (as coined by someone in an earlier post) than hitherto envisaged. Therefore the early interaction is not necessarily antagonistic. What are the scholarly opinions in this area ? In this time in history of man, this forum should be the best place in the world to come ask questions on Indian history. Bear in mind, that the forum itself constitutes historical record. I hope that it shall never be said that questions went abegging... All the best, J.B. Sharma From dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Wed Sep 21 04:30:32 1994 From: dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (dom) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 23:30:32 -0500 Subject: DEATH OF KARL POPPER (fwd) Message-ID: <161227017332.23782.797661200484783233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sad news: > > Forwarded from the usenet group sci.philosophy: > > PHILOSOPHER POPPER DIES AGED 92 > Saturday 17 September 1994: > > The philosopher Sir Karl Popper has died, aged 92, in a Surrey hospital. > He died in the Mayday Hospital in Croydon after a long illness. He > became world famous through publication of works such as "The Open > Society and Its Enemies", in which he sought to rebut Marxism, Fascism > and other authoritarian ideologies. > > He questioned the idea of inexorable laws of human history, believing > history to be influenced by the growth of knowledge, which is > unpredictable. His books attacking Marxism had a strong influence on > Margaret Thatcher as prime minister of Britain - and he was admired by > other world leaders past and present. From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Sep 21 13:17:44 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:17:44 -0500 Subject: Prof. Zvelebil's address Message-ID: <161227017354.23782.11054131164960239443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, Can anyone send me the postal address of the eminent linguist and Dravidian/Tamil scholar, Prof. Kamil V. Zvelebil? I think he is at Utrecht. Thanks, N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu Wed Sep 21 00:44:34 1994 From: pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu (pclaus at s1.csuhayward.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:44:34 +0800 Subject: Ayan, Dravidian (perhaps too seriously?)) Message-ID: <161227017362.23782.14098373721596762501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been following the discussion of this topic, and before the discussion gets cut off, I would like to mention of some literature which I would think pertinent. But before mentioning it, I would also like to point out that not all aspects of culture change or are absorbed (or are otherwise influenced by other cultures) at the same rate or in the same way. What is being discussed is not a single lump. Language, ritual, thought, social structure, etc. must each be approached in a different manner before ultimately tieing them all together. And, ultimately, of course, culture means people, with their particular motivations in relation to other people: culture as it is being talked about here is how they do it. Furthermore, even with regard to any one of these sets of information, the picture is by no means consistent. In looking at language, eg., we may usefully distinguish a Dravidian Language Family from an Indo- European one, but acknowledge mutual influences at (differently) the phonological, grammatical, lexical, etc. levels. And to speak of a language as belonging to one or another family is different than talking about speech communities, with many languages coexisting and people being bi- and multi-lingual as well as having varying capabilities in the community's languages. A genetic approach to the languages of India may not be as useful (and may yield misleading answers) for some purposes as a speech community approach. According to the latter, one need not see the spread of Indo-European languages in South Asia as due to any large scale invasion of people, but rather Indo-European languages as, say, having a prestige value or being used as a trade language, within a mixed speech community. Large sections of the speech community may have been bilingual, or use a secondary language as a pidgin, or various other levels of competency. One need only think of the situation with English in South Asia today: there are not, nor ever have been, many English in South Asia, although the language has deeply rooted itself in the culture and the speech community. For discussion of these issues one might read: Southworth and Fairservis (1989, Linguistic archeology and the Indus Valley Culture", in _Old Problems and New Perspectives in the Archaeology of South Asia_, JM Kenoyer, ed.) and Southworth (1990 The reconstruction of prehistoric South Asia language contact, in _The Uses of Linguistics_, EH Benedict, ed.). A different set of issues is involved in distinguishing a south Indian Dravidian Kinship System from the kinship system in Northern India. The former is usually identified as having a terminology which equates parallel cousins (mother's sister's children, father's brother's children) with ones own siblings (children of the same parents) and distinguishing cross cousins (mother's brother's children, father's sister's children) from both of these. In Dravidian Kinship, cross cousins are eligible (sometimes preferred) marriage partners while parallel cousins are not. In many castes (including Brahman) a mother's brother is also an eligible marriage partner for a girl (his sister's daughter). These characteristics are not found in many areas of Northern India, and, presumably, are in some way related to what one might regard as an Indo-European Kinship System. How the Dravidian System incorporates lineality (patrilineal, matrilineal) into the family system is variable, but does not preclude following sashtric gotram rules practiced in the north. The same is true of the way exchange of brides and gift are interpreted and are implemented. Thus, somewhat like language, but obviously through very different mechanisms, the 'rules' of one system can be incorporated (or accommodated) in the other. It might also be pointed out that many areas in northern India where Indo-European languages are spoken, various degrees of a Dravidian Kinship System are found. Clearly, the motivations for incorporating features of a kinship system into ones life are different than incorporating features of a language; and, the consequences are different too, since 'rules' of kinship have to do with how families are linked to one another and how such important matters as wealth, property and tradition are retained within a group. Yet it appears South Asian groups DO alter (or are sometimes forced by law to alter) various aspects of their kinship and family structures. In South India, for eg., one finds living next door to one another people speaking the same language, but inheriting property matrilineally, patrilineally, and bilaterally; some allowing sister's daughter marriage, others not; some favoring cross-cousin marriage, other practicing it rarely; etc. For further reading on the dynamics of kinship in South Asia I would suggest Nur Yalman's classic, _Under the Bo Tree_. Although having nothing to do with any Invasion Theory, it does give one much to think about regarding the evidence for interpreting the South and Southerners as Dravidian when they follow a Dravidian Kinship pattern and having "come from the north" when they don't. Religion and ritual constitute another set of practices which may lead to identifying a distinction between Dravidian and Indo- European, but, again, a different approach to the question is called for. Here, because many Indologists are scholars of literature, I would suggest as a starting point they acquaint themselves with the work of those doing research on contemporary practices in the villages. In addition to several works by George Hart already mentioned, Stuart Blackburn's essay, "Death and Deification: Folk Cults in Hinduism" (in _History of Religions_ , v24, no.3) is a source which contains a number of good leads. While Blackburn wisely does not distinguish between Dravidian and Indo-European, he does distinguish the Folk from the Classical. which, broadly, may be identified with Vedic sacrifices. But even there, he points out, the funerary practices of even the linguistically Dravidian non- Brahman villagers have certain resemblances with the Sanskritic sraddha funerary rituals. [But, then, too, they have parallels with Chinese and African rituals, too.] And the sraddha rituals are not necessarily a part of the most ancient layers of the Sanskritic practices, and perhaps already evidence an attitude toward the dead which was incorporated into people's thought from the outside the community. What may be more distinctively Dravidian are the features of performance in the rituals: narrating the story of dead heroes and laments to deceased relatives, enactment of the heroes life deeds and possession of the living by the spirits of the dead. All of these things form a consistent set for folk Hindu rituals in Dravidian Language areas. But they are also found in areas of the north, too. So here again, as in language and social structure, it is difficult to make sharp distinctions. With religious practice, furthermore, it is not clear what are the motivations for change and incorporation of elements might be. Surely there are people speaking Dravidian languages whose religious ritual is identical to Vedic ones: did they change languages or ritual practices? How could we know? Why would they do either? Why should we prefer one answer over another? Adoption of ritual practice is not as difficult as some textual sources would have it, and it is certain that many Dravidian peoples have put into practice highly Sanskritic rituals and are (perhaps thereby) regarded as Vedic ritual specialists, who (reasoning circularly) "must have come from the north." One of the least reliable sources of information on this matter is Caste Origin Narratives, including caste 'historical' traditions (legends, 'genealogies' and other forms) of where they came from. These are highly manipulable and even when presented publically for scrutiny, are done so usually by professional castes whose job it is to establish their patron's prestige (from which they, too, stand to gain). Whole histories can be borrowed from one group to another. This, of course, happens in written documents, too. While interesting from a variety of viewpoints, they need to be corroborated with other decisive documentary or archeological evidence if they are to be thought of as 'real history'. I would not be too pessimistic about reconstructing histories from any of these forms of testimony, and, indeed, if one is to know South Asia and its people as a dynamic and changing civilization, one MUST pursue these matters. Best, though, in my opinion, is in small pieces and starting with the present and going back in small steps, recognizing, with great humility, our enormous ignorance of (and ideological biases toward) the histories of the great majority of the groups involved. I have been interested, myself, in the past couple of years, in the pastoral people of the Deccan, whose caste legends would have them migrating from the north, although there is virtually nothing in their present culture to support this claim. In the past 5 or 6 centuries it appears they may have had considerable effect on the course of Deccan history. Yet, in combing the English literature written about them, I find only a few pages reporting on the study of them, most of that by the reports of 19th century colonial administrators and their civil servants, and much of it unreliable. The only solution that I can see is that we get off of our chairs and out of the cities and campuses and do more research in the countryside, collecting more data to analyze. We rely too much on the scant and often faulty material gathered in the 19th and early 20th centuries and desperately need more data and higher quality data, gathered with the criteria we now set for ourselves. We speculate more than we need to, and about issues for which we simply haven't the data, or don't know how to interpret it when we do. Jayant Bapat's initial question asks for this sort of speculation and my reply is thus: there IS no simple answer to the question; someday, maybe ... if we get to work, today. Peter J. Claus fax: 510-727-2276 Phone: 510-704-9636 pclaus at csuhayward.edu From pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU Wed Sep 21 08:45:39 1994 From: pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU (pslvax!siva!sadhu at UCSD.EDU) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:45:39 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017365.23782.2484517312357297121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a most interesting discussion! I am wondering if anyone would care to comment on the theory of the "Nostratic" language, mentioned in the following passage from the book "Dancing with Siva", H.H. Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, isbn 0-945497-48-2, 1993: (page 609) "Many scholars today of both East and West believe that the people of the Rig Veda who called themsevles Aryan were indigenous to India, and there never was an Aryan invason. The various langugaes of India have been shown to share common ancestry in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil. Even these two apparently unrelated languages, according to current "super-family" research, have a common origin: an ancient language dubbed Nostratic. Finally, there is an ever-increasing amount of physical and scriptural evidence that describes a gradual evolution of religion and culture in India from prehistoric lifestyles to today's rich ethnic diversity." The Aryan/Dravidian invasion discussion has been interesting, but has certainly digressed. Gentlemen, though a newcomer to this list, may I humbly suggest that personal attacks have no place here? It is painful to see eminent scholars use their intellects as weapons. Please let peace prevail. I offer for your enjoyment 17 couplets of the ancient Dravidian poet, Tiruvalluvar. Apologies for the length. Om Shanti Sadhunathan Nadesan ------------------------------ Speaking Pleasant Words Verse 95 Humility and pleasant words are the jewels That adorn a man; there are none other. Verse 97 Words yield spiritual rewards and moral excellence When they do not wander far from usefulness and agreeableness. Verse 99 Why would anyone speak cruel words, Having observed the happiness that kind words confer? Verse 100 To utter harsh words when sweet ones would serve is like eating Unripe fruit when ripe ones are at hand. Possession of Self-Control Verse 127 Whatever you may fail to guard, guard well your tongue, For flawed speech unfailingly invokes anguish and affliction. Verse 128 By a single word of injury Do all a man's virtues lose their goodness. Verse 129 The wound caused by fire heals in its time; But the burn seared in by an inflamed tongue will never heal. Possession of Forbearance Verse 151 Even as the Earth bears those who dig into her, To bear with those who revile us is the foremost of virtues. Verse 152 It is always good to endure injuries done to you, But to forget them is even better. Verse 157 Though unjustly afflicted, it is best to suffer the suffering And refrain from unrighteous response. Verse 158 Let a man conquer by forbearance Those who in their arrogance have wronged him. Verse 159 Those who patiently endure the caustic rude remarks of the insolent Possess the ascetic's remarkable exceptional rare purity. Verse 160 Great are those who suffer fasting's hardships, But they are surpassed by those who suffer hard words spoken. Eloquence Verse 641 Among a man's many good possessions, A good command of speech has no equal. Verse 642 Prosperity and ruin issue from the power of the tongue. Therefore, guard yourself against thoughtless speech. Verse 643 The content of worthy speech binds friends more closely, And its eloquence draws even enemies to listen. Verse 644 Judge the nature of your listeners and speak accordingly. There is nothing more virtuous or valuable than this. From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Wed Sep 21 13:50:45 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:50:45 -0500 Subject: Bibliography of Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227017355.23782.6673972308336978521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bibliography of Asian Studies ----------------------------- Dear members, What happened to Bibliography of Asian studies (BAS) from Association of Asian Studies, Univ. of Michigan? The advertisements for new voulmes used to appear in Journal of Asian Studies. The last BAS I saw was for the year 1986 published in 1991. It used to be a very good source for knowing the titles of articles on India. Atleast, the new book titles can be found thru' computer catalogs of university libraries, but not the journal articles. Hope BAS hasn't ceased its publication. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Sep 21 14:05:27 1994 From: rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Richard Lariviere) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 09:05:27 -0500 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017357.23782.17571623514826221763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Dr. Frank (and I use the term advisedly) Conlon: Just where do you get off telling me and my colleagues to have a "nice" day? While I readily admit to not being privy (and I use *that* term advisedly) to the latest in hip west coast greetings, nevertheless I deconstruct more than a little sarcasm in that remark, and I find it profligate, even wasteful, since just a little sarcasm would have done very nicely. I am not familiar with the scholars you refer to in your typical insider's manner, "the Simpsons", and I don't even want to know what perverse politics may have given rise to the wildly inappropriate reference to "having" cows. I willsimply close by confessing, reluctantly, that the tone of your letter has moved me to this-- YOU have a nice day. Richard PS. Best to Joan. On Wed, 21 Sep 1994, Frank Conlon wrote: > With full respect to the likelihood that Mr. Karanth, in his own innocent > virtue, really believes that an offhand characterization of the arguments > of J. B. Sharma somehow do a great wrong to Sharmaji, let me say that > from my perspective, "why not give it a rest?" I have refrained from > entering into the slanging around this issue, but Mr. Karanth, whom I > believe to be an honorable, but substantially unqualified commentator on > the history of India, persists. > > Why not leave it alone? Probably because, like a whole cohort of > Indo-North American science types, he feels that he is perfectly > qualified to discuss Indian history on the basis of his Indianness, > whereas if I were to offer some hare-brained intervention on his > particular field of scientific knowledge, he would, in the terminology > of the Simpsons, have a cow. Don't misunderstand me, he's entitled to > his opinion, as for that matter are those scoundrels LaRiviere and > Rocher, but the posturings of the "interested parties", and the > expectation that we are all supposed to fall down and ignore one hundred > years of scholarship just because one or two new dudes have had an > inspiration strikes me as pushing the envelope just a tad beyond the > believable. > > But, of course, I may have it all wrong. In which case, just have a nice > day and stay tuned. > > Frank Conlon > > > > From dileep at math.utexas.edu Wed Sep 21 15:19:01 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 10:19:01 -0500 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017360.23782.14136726337753575014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 21 Sep 1994, Frank Conlon wrote: > With full respect to the likelihood that Mr. Karanth, in his own innocent > virtue, really believes that an offhand characterization of the arguments > of J. B. Sharma somehow do a great wrong to Sharmaji, let me say that > from my perspective, "why not give it a rest?" I have refrained from > entering into the slanging around this issue, but Mr. Karanth, whom I > believe to be an honorable, but substantially unqualified commentator on > the history of India, persists. First of all, let me point out that Sharmaji has in a private message to me disapproved of my emotionalism. He does not want me to defend him. I only wish to point out that Dominik's original message was a reply to a private conversation with Sharmaji. He need not have made it a public matter at all. His criticism was not based on any idea of Sharmaji's. He dismisses all the work of Kak/Frawley, and says that they have nothing to say other they (Kak/Frawley) dismiss the "established scholarship" as the product of missionary motives. This is a plain lie. Dr. Navaratna Rajaram (of the kak/Frawley school) has clearly said that all Western scholarship cannot be wished away. He does counsel us that we must not dismiss sincere scholarship; as examples, he quotes the names of some Jewsih Indologists who could neither be accused of ideas of Aryan superiority nor of Christian missionary motives. Kak and Frawley in their work only say that Westerners had an opinionated way of approaching the problem -- not that they are liars. I met Shrikant Talageri (author of the book "Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian Nationalism") personally, and asked him to outline hsi work for me. That, I hope, partly compensates for my not having read the whole book myself. Dr. Talageri points out that the word "Arya" has been used in the Rig Veda 33 times. on 32 occasions, the word is used simply in the sense of "noble, good". (I regret to say I did not ask him "What about the 33rd occasion?"). His point is that the very reason Aryans have been postulated to be outsiders was the misreading of the word "Aryas" to mean a people (either a linguistic group, or a racial group -- both are wrong). The Kak school believes the chronology of the Indus Valley civization, as accepted by many Western scholars is wrong (not because they were bad guys, but because they were wrong). They say that many of the artefacts of the Indus Valley which are credited to the pre-Aryans on the basis of this chronology can be credited to the Aryans on the basis of their own chronology, if the Aryans are postulated to be the Indus Valley-wallahs. There is no need to import Aryans from the outside. The Kak/Frawley school calls upon other schools to make clear why Aryans have to be imported at all. Now Frawley, Feurstein and other scholars are not Hindus -- yet they have reached some conclusions which would gladden the hearts of some Hindus, notablr RSS men. But that is not reason enough to smell an RSS-VHP controversy as some people have done. By the same token, all Western scholarship could be dismissed as "missionary tactics". Dominik has not taken note of caveats by the Kak/Frawley school that their work should not be misunderstood as an attack on so-called missionary motives. > > Why not leave it alone? Probably because, like a whole cohort of > Indo-North American science types, he feels that he is perfectly > qualified to discuss Indian history on the basis of his Indianness, Your diagnosis is indeed partly correct. My Indianness, and experience with some Indians leaves me with no doubt that there are many Indians who cannot think independently and will blindly applaud any Western criticism of Indian scholarship. I thought I should point it out. The learned Professor Deshpande sent Dominik a note congratulating him over his content-free message. (to borrow a friend's terminology). Please note that when the discussion was really serious, that is when people like Rob Mayer, Jon Silk, and others were trading ideas, I was merely reading with interest. I decided to speak only when I saw that Big Brother was killing the debate. Sharmaji is too decent to say unkind things, but I am convinced that with a bunch of "Shathas" we need some "Shaathya". > Don't misunderstand me, he's entitled to > his opinion, as for that matter are those scoundrels LaRiviere and > Rocher, but the posturings of the "interested parties", and the > expectation that we are all supposed to fall down and ignore one hundred > years of scholarship just because one or two new dudes have had an > inspiration strikes me as pushing the envelope just a tad beyond the > believable. > I do not contest 100 years of scholarship. I am merely contesting the right of some people who will criticise people for private messages in public; who believe that merely imputing motives and making allusions to von Daniken's work are acceptable. I am surprised nobody even noticed the sheer stupidity of the allusion to von Daniken's work. If Sharmaji's comments were so stupid, they could be visibly and instatnly punctured with the help of a few precise arguments. But no, Dominik does not even quote Sharmaji's words -- he merely criticises them , knowing fully well that there are people who will not mind his highhandedness. Surely enough, ther are people who will call him a gentleman. Chivalry must really be dead. The other reason I am making a mountain out of this molehill is that I want to point out only a pain-in-the-neck like me can get a response from members of the Indology network. Sharmaji's precise and politely asked questions have been met only with supercilious silence. Of course, all this could have been said simply without making a fuss. But then, perhaps it is all for the better. For, now that we have a few thousand words on this matter, even the learned Professor Deshpande will agree that a point has been made. Dileep Karanth From IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU Wed Sep 21 17:57:00 1994 From: IBENBNW at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (robert l brown) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 10:57:00 -0700 Subject: Films on Religion in South Asia Message-ID: <161227017369.23782.12812096860736688618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL-------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 03:56:07 BST > Reply-To: indology at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK > Sender: indology-request at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK > From: SOGBS at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU > To: Members of the list > Subject: Films on Religion in South Asia > > I am reposting this list because the original version apparently > contained some non-ASCII codes. I hope that this version (tidied up > by Matthew Ciolek for the Coombs archives) is clean. > > Geoffrey Samuel > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The document can also be acquired from a sub-directory coombspapers via > anonymous FTP or COOMBSQUEST gopher at the Australian National > University, Canberra on the node COOMBS.ANU.EDU.AU or from the ANU > Soc.Sci.WWW Server at http://coombs.anu.edu.au/CoombsHome.html] > > The document's ftp filename and the full directory path are given in > the coombspapers top level INDEX files] > > [This version: 8 August 1994] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > DOCUMENTARY FILMS AND VIDEOS ON SOUTH ASIAN RELIGION > > compiled by Geoffrey SAMUEL > > August 1994 > > (address until 12/94) > Department of Sociology and Anthropology > University of Newcastle > NSW 2308 > Australia > fax +61 49 216902 > email (until 12/94): sogbs at cc.newcastle.edu.au > > (address from 1/95) > Department of Religious Studies > Lancaster University > Lancaster LA1 4YG > UK > fax +44 524 847039 > email (from 2/95): [probably] G.Samuel at lancs.ac.uk > > This list is work-in-progress, and does not claim to be in any way > complete. It has been assembled from a variety of sources, but I have > undoubtedly omitted many useful and worthwhile films and videos. Please > feel free to send me additions, corrections and comments. > > I have included films on South Asian performing arts with religious > themes, on non-Indian religions in South Asia (Zoroastrianism, Islam) and > on Hinduism (but not Buddhism) outside South Asia. > > I have not distinguished between films and videos in the listings since > most of the film material is probably now available on video. Generally > speaking, the older items were initially released on 16mm film. Note that > videos from the USA are normally in the NTSC system, those from UK and > Australia in PAL. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ABBREVIATIONS > > AA = reference to review in _American Anthropologist_ > > H6 = Karl G. Heider, _Films for Anthropological Teaching_. 6th edn. > American Anthropological Association, 1977 > > R-xxx; ref to Rolf Husmann et al. _A Bibliography of Ethnographic Film_, > Gottingen 1992 > > * I have seen this item > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > SOURCE LIST > > N.B. Some of these addresses are probably out of date. I have given the > most recent information available to me. - G.S. > > Apsara Media for Intercultural Education, 13659 Victory Boulevard, Suite > 577, Van Nuys, CA 91401. Attn: Distribution. (818) 785-1498 > > Arthur Cantor Films, 2112 Broadway, Suite 400, New York, NY 10023, USA. > Tel.: (212) 496 5710 > > BBC Productions (in UK): BBC Enterprises, Sales Department, Woodlands, > Wood Lane, London W12 0TT, UK. Tel. (?071) 743 5588 > (in Australia): BBC Education and Training, 11th Floor, 50 Berry Street, > North Sydney, NSW 2060, Australia. Tel. +61 2 957 6933. Fax +61 2 957 6448 > > BhakTV Productions Ltd, 3941 Madison Ave, PO Box 1015, Culver City, 90232, > USA > > Center for Mass Communication of Columbia University Press, 136 South > Broadway, Irvington, NY 10533, USA [1974 address!] > > Center Productions, 1800 30th Street, Boulder, CO 80301, USA. Tel. (800) > 824 1166 > > Cinetel Productions Pty Ltd, 15 Fifth Avenue, Cremorne, NSW 2090, > Australia. Attn.: Frank Heimans. Tel.: (02) 953 8071. Fax: +61 2 953 7122 > > Colorado State University Instructional Service, Colorado State > University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA. Attn.: James Boyd. Tel (303) 491 > 1325. Fax (303) 491 6989 > > Deakin University Video Publications, Deakin University Press, Deakin > University, Geelong, VIC 3217, Australia. Tel.: (052) 27 2633, 27 2194. > Fax: +61 52 27 2020 > > Direct Cinema, Ltd., Box 69799, Los Angeles, CA 90069, USA. Tel. (213) 652 > 8000 > > Disappearing World Series (UK) Granada Television, 36 Golden Square, > London W1R 4AH, UK. Tel.: (071) 734 8080. Fax: +44 71 494 6280 > (USA) PMI, 5547 N. Ravenswood Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60640-1199, USA. > Tel. (312) 878 7300, or Pennsylvania State University Audio-Visual > Services (see below) > > Documentary Educational Resources, 101 Morse St., Watertown, MA 02172, > USA. Tel. (617) 926 0491 > > Film Australia, PO Box 46, Lindfield. NSW 2070, Australia. Tel.: (02) 413 > 8777. Fax: +61 2 416 5672. British and US enquiries through Australian > Government Film Representatives: Canberra House, 10-16 Maltravers Street, > The Strand, London WC2R 3EH, UK; Australian Information Service, 636 Fifth > Avenue, New York, NY 10020, USA. > > Films Incorporated, 5547 Ravenswood Ave., Chicago, IL 60640, USA. Tel. > (800) 323 4222 > > First Run Icarus, 153 Waverly Place, 6th floor, New York, NY 10014. Attn: > Liz Fries. Tel (800) 876 1710; Fax (212) 989 7649 > > Malinis's Dances of India Troupe, 1355 Wynnstone Drive, Ann Arbor, MI > 48105 > > Media Services, University of Texas Library, Box 830643, University of > Texas at Dallas, Richardson, TX 75083-0643, USA. Tel: (214) 690 2949 > > Michael Camerini, Inc., 327 West 21st Street, Apt 2W, New York, NY 10011, > USA. Tel.: (212) 242 2363. Fax: (212) 242 2363 > > Nataraj, 12 Bristol Lane, Hadley, MA 01035. Attn: David Watson. (413) 586 > 8974 > > Pennsylvania State University, Audio Visual Services, Special Services > Building, Universty Park, PA 16802, USA. Tel. (814) 865 6314 or (800) 826 > 0132 > > RAI International Video Sales: Royal Anthropological Institute, 50 Fitzroy > Street, London W1P 5HS, UK. Tel. (071) 387 0455. Fax: +44 71 383 4235. > Attn: Gail S. Baker, Film Officer. (Some RAI material appears to be > distributed in the USA by Documentary Educational Resources, qv.) > > Rounder Records, Dept. SEM, 61 Prospect Sreet, Montpelier, Vermont 05602, > USA. Attn.: Stephen McArthur. Tel (802) 223 1294, Fax (802) 229 1834 > > Satyam Shivam Sundaram, 425 Alexander Street, Princeton NJ 08540, USA > [from 1974] > > Singer-Sharrette Productions, 336 Main Street, PO Box 68, Rochester MI > 48063, USA Tel (313) 731 5199 or 656 0030 > > Society of St Francis, Hermitage of St Bernadine, Stroud, NSW 2425, > Australia. Tel. (049) 94 5372 > > South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin, 1269 Van Hise Hall, > Madison, WI 53706. Attn.: Distribution. Tel (608) 262-9690; Fax (608) 262 > 3065 > > Syracuse University Film Rental Center, 1455 E. Colvin Street, Syracuse, > NY 13210, USA. (1977 address!) > > Traditional Healing Films/Earth Research, P.O. Box 68, 336 Main St, > Rochester, MI 48063, USA. Tel. (313) 656 0030 > > Under the Sun, BBC Elstree, Clarendon Road, Borehamwood, Herts WD6 1JF, UK > > University of California Extension Media Center, 2000 Center St, 4th > floor, Berkeley, CA 94704. Attn.: Daniel Bickley. Tel (510) 642 0460; Fax > (510) 643 8683 > > Visionova, 64 Royal Park Terrace, Hillsdale, NJ 07642, USA > > Wombat Prductions, Inc., 250 West 57th Street, Suite 1319, New York, NY > 10019, USA. Tel. (212) 315 2502 > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > FILM LIST > > > AHIMSA, NON-VIOLENCE > (Produced by Marion Hunt and directed by Michael Tobias, 1987, 58 min.) > Distributor: Direct Cinema > R-753 = AA 91,4 (1989): 1094-95 > ".. about modern followers of the Jain religion in India... Because of its > vivid and colorful subject matter, its seductive narration ... and its > unique depiction of an important religious community seldom studied even > in South Asian ethnography courses, this film will be tempting to plug in > as a remedial ethnographic profile of the Jains. However to do so without > additional background material would be a _big_ mistake. The film's made- > for-television slickness will encourage students to overlook its lack of > sociohistorical context and its consistently pro-Jain hyperbole... I would > certainly use this film in my courses, but only with additional materials > to ensure a critical viewing." (from AA review, which also makes several > suggestions for additional reading) > > > ALTAR OF FIRE > (Robert Gardner/Frits Staal, 1976, 45 min) > Distributor: University of California Extension Media Center (film and > video) > R-270 = AA 80,1 (1978), 197-9 > "... consists largely of footage taken during the course of the > performance of the Vedic Agnicarana ritual by Nambudiri Brahmins in Kerala > Province in April of 1975." Robert Paul's AA review focusses on the > dubious nature of the film's claims to "authenticity," and its lack of > contextualizing the event depicted: the makers of the film "pretend to > give us an authentic glimpse into ancient Vedic times, rendered hollow and > ethically repugnant through the patronizing, rigid, antiquarian, and > neocolonialist attitudes it reveals." > > > BAKE RESTUDY 1984 > (Nazir Ali Jairazbhoy and Amy Catlin, 60 min) > AA 96,2 (1994), 484-6 > Distributor: Apsara Media for Intercultural Education > "This videotape explores the preservation and transformation of > performance in India's southern states of Tamilnadu, Kerala and Karnataka. > It compares Arnold Adriaan Bake's unique 16mm films, photos and audio > recordings of music, dance and ritual, made in 1938, to the audio-visual > documentation collected on a revisit to the same sites by his students and > colleague, Nazir Jairazbhoy, in 1984." (details from _Asian Studies > Newsletter_ (Apr-May 1993), p.11) > > > BANARAS > (Michael Camerini, 22min) > Distributor: Michael Camerini, Inc. (Made in cooperation with Dept of > Indian Studies, Uni of Wisconsin, Madison) > "The feeling and mood of Banaras rather than a detailed description of any > given facet of the city. The film relies on visual images and the original > score to evoke the feeling of being in Banares. It shows the cycle of > daily activity, life on the ghats, ties the formal worship in temples to > the devotions of pilgrims and the people of the city at the river, and > explores the many different types of shrines found in the city. There are > many rhythms to the city: the pattern of daily life, the market places, > the multiple uses of the river and of water in general, and all contribute > to the holiness of the city. In exploring these rhythms the film also > gives the viewer a feeling for the people of Banares; their faces, moods > and actvities." (details and description from H6: 30) > > > BEING MUSLIM IN INDIA > (1984, 30 min) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > No further details available > > > BENARES: STEPS TO HEAVEN > (Richard Riddiford, 1984, 30 min.) > Distributor: Wombat Productions > R625 = AA 89,1 (1987) 251-3 > "Its 30 minutes are devoted to the city as a pilgrimage centre... leaves > this viewer with a sense of a guided tour, unattached to the actual lives > of people who live in the city and depend on its religious importance for > their livelihood... Yet its use in teaching about Hinduism, about Benares > as a pilgrimage center, about the antiquity of Hindu custom and the beauty > that can be allied with death and distress is certain..." (AA review) > > > CHANDALIKA: A DRAMA OF KARMA AND SOCIAL CHANGE > (video, 40 min) > Distributor: Nataraj > "From Rabindranath Tagore's book. At the lowest stratum of the Indian > caste system is the 'untouchable' or chandal. Within this caste, at one > time, were born Prakriti and her mother. Prakriti was scorned by village > women and bewailed her birth until she met a Buddhist monk who offered her > a new point of view. There was hope, she thought, to change her karma, and > the struggle to do so and its outcome comprise the story." (Details from > _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Spring 1990), p.5) > > > CHANT DES FOUS, LE > Distributor: Not known > French film on the Bauls of Bengal made in 1978-79. > > > CHITTIRAI FESTIVAL > (Michael Camerini and Myra Binford,1976, 25 + 35 min) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > H6: 45 > Filmed by directed by Joseph Elder. On the temple festival at Madurai, > South India. Part I : Historical background; Part II : Events of the > festival. William Harman's book _The Sacred Marriage of a Hindu Goddess_, > 1989, which is a description of this festival, refers to what seems to be > the same film under the title WEDDING OF THE GODDESS. This is perhaps a > longer version, since Harman gives the timings as 36 + 40 min. > > > THE CHRISTIAN YOGA EXPERIENCE > (1985, 32 min) > Distributor: Deakin University Video Productions > "Dr Peter Fenner from Deakin University discusses the Christian Yoga > experience with Brother Amaldas, who accompanied the Monk-Mystic, Dom Bede > Griffiths, on his visit to Australia. Order No.129" > > > CIRCLES-CYCLES: KATHAK DANCE > (Robert S. Gottlieb, 1989) > Distributor: University of California Extension Media Center > "The kathak tradition combines influences from both Hindu and Islamic > cultures and was cultivated in the royal courts of north India under the > nawabs and Maharajas. The themes range from simple village life to the > experiences of Hindu deities." (Details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ > (Spring 1990), p.5) > ".. provides a clear introduction to the history and performance of > kathak... with selections from the kathak repertoire as performed by > leading artists of North India... I recommend this film wholeheartedly for > teaching and research purposes" (AA review) > R-298 = AA 93,1 (1991), 252 > > > CLASSROOM CONVERSATION WITH A ZOROASTRIAN PRIEST > (James W. Boyd and Ron G. Williams, 48 min.) > Distributor: Colorado State University Instructional Service > "Dastur Firoze Kotwal, a Zoroastrian high priest from Bombay, in residence > for a semester at Colorado State University, provided the interview > material for this discussion about beliefs and practices of Zoroastrians." > (details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Jan-Feb 1994), p.7) > > > DARSHAN > (Filmed and edited by Florence Davey, 30 min) > Distributor: Satyam Shivam Sundaram > R-181 = AA 76,3 (1974), 704-6 > "This useful film contains brief but illuminating vignettes of four > contemporary "holy men" of North India.." (AA review) > > > DEVI: THE FEMININE POWER IN INDIAN RELIGIOUS TRADITION > Distributor: Nataraj > "For centuries in India there has been an indigenous folk tradition of > goddess worship, especially in Eastern and Southern India. Mahadevi is > often presented as one who responds to the needs or cries of her devotees > to destroy evil. This film explores principal aspects of the goddess in > dramatized form." (details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Spring 1990), > p.5) > > > DIVINE MADNESS: TRANCE, DANCE AND HEALING IN GUYANA > (Philip Singer, 1978, 60 min) > Distributor: Singer-Sharrette Productions > R-700 = AA 87,2 (1985), 480-1 > "an intense and intimate look at a ritual healing sequence at a Kali Hindu > temple in Albion, Guyana. The participants, primarily East Indian sugar > plantation workers of the district... come as patients, healers, and > ritualists to a religious event that derives directly from the Shaivite > Great Tradition of South India. The film is a result of close cooperation > between the anthropologist/ ethnopsychiatrist Philip Singer and the Kali > Mai _pujari_ Jaimsee Naidoo. In their joint narrative the _pujari_'s > explanations of etiology and therapy in "Kali work" are presented side by > side with Singer's psychological framework for these processes." (excerpt > from generally favourable AA review) > This seems to be an abridged and improved version of a series of three 40 > minute films by Philip Singer collectively entitled TRADITIONAL HEALING IN > GUYANA : THE DIVINE MADNESS OF KALI MAI FUNCTIONAL THERAPY > which were reviewed less positively in AA 81,2 (1979), 472-3. Criticisms there > focussed on the "rambling and inconsistent narration" with its > "condescending and patronizing tone" and on the failure to "make the > subject material generally comprehensible". > > > DOM BEDE GRIFFITHS: A CHRISTIAN SADHU > (1985, 33 min) > Distributor: Deakin University Video Productions > "Dom Bede Griffiths discusses East-West religious dialogue and his > experiences as a monk-mystic in the Benedictine Ashram in South India. He > talks with Professor Max Charlesworth and Dr Purusottama Bilimoria of > Deakin University. Order No.128." > > > DUST AND ASHES* > (Michael Yorke and Naresh Bedi, 1989, 50 min) > Distributor: Under the Sun > "Every twelve years, when the Sun enters Capricorn and Jupiter enters > Aries, devout Hindus go to the great Kumbh fair at Allahabad and this year > the government is expecting 37 million people. We follow the fortunes of > four pilgrims: an ascetic, who meditates in the ice cave from where the > Ganges flows; His Holiness Jagadguru Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal; a rural > peasant from central India and a wealthy industrialist." (Note from > programme of 2nd International Festival of Ethnographic Film, Manchester, > 1990) > > > EUNUCHS: INDIA'S THIRD GENDER* > (50 min.) > Distributor: BBC > AA 95 (1993), 517-8 > On the _hijra_ (transvestite) community of India. "Well known to Indians > is the custom a groups of _hijras_ celebrating a birth in a prosperous > household by song and dance, and by blessing the newborn... Less well > known is the caste-like structure of the _hijra_ community and its > religious cult centering on a goddess who is pleased by the sacrifice > performed by an initiated _hijra_ of "her" male genitalia. Both the caste > and the cult are detailed by Nanda [Serena Nanda, _Neither Man nor Woman_, > Wadsworth 1990]... The film "centers on a cohabiting couple, Kiran and > Hiresh, a _hijra_ and her truck-driver mate.. We see two communities of > _hijras_, one in Rajasthan, where there is a monastery occupied by > _hijras_... The second community is a house of prostitution in Bombay. We > witness here the welcoming of two new "girls" into the house, celebrated > by an elaborate wedding ceremony." (From a joint review with JAREENA: > PORTRAIT OF A HIJDA. "Both films are visually pleasing and nonsensational > in tone." > > > EYES OF STONE* > (Nilita Vachani, 1989, 90 min) > (Doordarshan 16mm film) > Distributor: Not known > "A film about women and the ritual of spirit possession and cure: a ritual > of faith, rebellion and individual expression that thrives within the > confines of a stringent patriarchal order. Shot in the Bhilwara district > of Rajasthan, India, the film documents one woman's participation in the > ritual and, through it, the strengths and sadnesses of her life. > Shanta is 19 years old. Married at the age of 10, she is the mother > of two sons. Her husband, Nandlal, a truck driver, is away on long- > distance trips most of the time. > Shanta has been ill for five years. It all began, she says, with the > evil gaze of a 'dakan' (witch). She suffers from headaches, bodyaches and > fevers, a sense of dissociation and disinterest in the world around her. > For the duration of her cure, Shanta lives with her parents and her > brother. They have taken her to doctors, tried different medicines, but > nothing has helped. Now, the family feels that this is no 'ordinary' > illness. They pin all their hopes on the goddess, Bhankya Mata. > Every Saturday, for five weeks, Shanta appears before the goddess. > Like hundreds of other possessed women, she goes into trance, and 'plays' > (the Hindi 'khelna'). In trance, the goddess 'comes' to her, and engages > the troublesome spirit in a battle of words, of wit, repartee, performance > and physical duress, in which the spirit must ultimately accept defeat. > The ritualised healing is a turning point in Shanta's life. After her > cure, she puts on her make-up and resumes her normal routine. She retunrs > with her husband to his village. True to the tradition, she covers up her > face and speaks in whispers. She is now the wife and mother - cooking, > cleaning, washing, sweeping. > The film has an inherent narrative structure as we move from Shanta's > 'abnormal' outbursts during possession to her socially defined behaviour > at her husband's home. The _cinema verite_ approach weaves a tapestry of > strongly defined characters, details of a rural, low-income Rajasthani > household, personal interactions that reveal the pathos of commonplace, > everyday problems; and midst it all, an unshakeable faith in the mother > goddess, 'who knows what is best, who knows all'." (from cover note to > video) > > > FLOATING IN THE AIR FOLLOWED BY THE WIND > (Ronald Simons, 1973) > Distributor: University of California Extension Media Center > H6: 65-6 > "A film ... about Thaipusam, a Tamil Hindu religious festival in Kuala > Lumpur, Malaysia. Worshippers pierce themselves with spears and hooks, and > carry highly decorated shoulder poles, called _kavadi_, to the place of > pilgrimage, a sacred cave. Preparations begin weeks before, and include > tutelage by a spiritual leader, a guru, who is skilled in inducing > entranced states. The trance state that occurs during the procession, > accompanied by rhythmic music and dance, prevents the worshippers from > experiencing pain." (description from LC) > > > FOREST OF BLISS* > (Produced by Robert Gardner and Akos Ostor and directed by Robert Gardner, > 1987, 89 min) > Distributor: Arthur Cantor Films > Robert Gardner's notorious movie on Varanasi. An art film rather than an > ethnography, this is of limited use for teaching purposes, but it is > undoubtedly a fascinating case-study in creative film-making. > R-273 = _SVA Newsletter_ 4,2 (1988), 1-7 and 5,1 (1989), 2-3; _Film > Quarterly_ 41,1 (1987), 58-61; AA 91,1 (1989), 273-4; _Humanism Quarterly_ > 12,3/4 (1987), 97-98 > > > FOUR HINDU SADHUS > also known as FOUR HOLY MEN: RENUNCIATION IN HINDU SOCIETY > (Mira Beym Binford and Michael Camerini, 37 min) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > "... examines several traditional ways in which a Hindu may renounce the > world and yet retain an integral role in society. The film focuses on four > different types of sadhus: a traditional guru who heads a monastery; a > scholar who is also the founder of a national political party; and a > recluse with no organizational ties [this makes three?]. Why did these > people choose the life of renunciation? Ho do they relate to the society > they have renounced." (details and description from H6: 67) > Also described in RAI Film Catalogue, p.19 > > > GIVEN TO DANCE > (Produced and directed by Ron Hess, 1985, 57 min) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > R-332 = AA 88,4 (1986), 1040-42 > On Odissi dance. Ex-temple dancers (_mahari_ or _devadasi_) speak about > their former lives to the modern Odissi dancer Madhavi Mudgal. Also > includes dances of the _gotipua_ (boy dancers) of Orissa, modern Odissi > dance performed by Madhavi Mudgal, and sequences from the chariot festival > of the Jagannath Temple at Puri. Would perhaps go well with Frederique > Marglin's _Wives of the God-King_. > > > HAIL MOTHER KALI: A TRIBUTE TO THE TRADITIONS AND HEALING > ARTS BROUGHT TO > GUYANA BY INDENTURED MADRASI LABOURERS > (Produced and directed by Stephanos Stephanides, 1988, 60 minutes) > Distributor: Singer-Sharrette Productions > R-735 = AA 91,2 (1989), 531-33 > "This video traces three days and nights of a Hindu _puja_ (healing > ceremony) in the canefields of Berbice, Guyana... The ceremony documented > is the anual Big Puja at the Blairmont Kali Temple... The goddess > incarnate seeing patients is more fully illustrated in the film DIVINE > MADNESS... While DIVINE MADNESS is appropriate for students of > ethnomedicine, clinical psychology, nursing, and related health fields, > HAIL MOTHER KALI will be more useful to students of religion, culture > history, expressive culture, and semiotics. It is not appropriate for use > with undergraduate students lacking prior introdction to Hinduism." (from > AA review) > > > HINDU LOAVES AND FISHES > (Produced and directed by Philip Singer, 1985, 20 min) > Distributor: Traditional Healing Films/Earth Research > R-701 = AA 88,4 (1986), 1042-43 > "An ethnographic study of Hindu shamanism centred on trance-linked > materialization of objects, this film is a true workshop view of a Hindu > holy man-cum-magician... The scenario is set with a Hindu professor of > biochemistry who regards this particular yogi as his personal guru and > believes he has achieved siddhi (occult powers) through austere > meditational techniques... The actual entry of Siddha Baba... into trance > and his trance-generated comportment is exquisitely done, by far the best > segment of the film, complete with hyperventilation, groans, and sundry > other sounds..." [AA review] Agehananda Bharati's review is critical of > several aspects of the film, but it might be useful with appropriate > introduction. > > > THE HINDU RITUAL SANDHYA > (Produced by Doris Srinivasan, 19 min.) > Distributor: Center for Mass Communication of Columbia University Press > R-733 = 76,1 (1974), 218-9 > "The film is a clear, straightforward presentation of a Smarta Brahmin > pandit performing his morning and evening prayers on the banks of a South > Indian river... The seeming multitude of gods mentioned during the prayers > are illustrated by cutaways to sculptures and paintings of them..." (from > AA review) > > > THE HO: PEOPLE OF THE RICE POT > (Michael and Valerie Yorke, 70 min.) > Distributor: (On hire from RAI Film Library) > "The Ho... are a secluded tribe of the Mundari-speaking group living in > the southern part of Bihar state in India. The film focusses on the life > ofe one man, his two wives and seven children in order to portray the > annual cycle of events and activities. They are shown engaged in > subsistence activities such as foraging in the forest and harvesting rice, > and in ritual and ceremonial observances... Shot over an eighteen-month > period, [the film] is able to recreate the atmosphere of everyday life for > the Ho, locating festival and ceremony firmly in the context of the > agricultural cycle..." > (Details and description from RAI Film Catalogue, p.25) > > > A HUMAN SEARCH: THE LIFE OF FATHER BEDE GRIFFITHS > (59 minutes) > Distributor (in Australia): Society of St Francis > "An intimate portrait of one of the greatest mystics and thinkers of this > century." > > > IMAGE INDIA: THE HINDU WAY > (Daniel H. Smith; series of 11 short films) > Distributor: Syracuse University Film Rental Center > R-707 = AA 74,6 (1972) 1585-87 > H6: 79 > "An eleven-film series on Hindu religious rites and celebrations... > photographed on location among the Tengalai Sri-vaisnava Brahmins of > Madras, Southern India... each film comes with a helpful Users' Guide" (AA > review quoted in H6) > The individual films are: > > HOW A HINDU WORSHIPS: AT THE HOME SHRINE (18 min) > HINDU TEMPLE RITES: BATHING THE IMAGE OF GOD (13 min) > HINDU SACRAMENTS OF CHILDHOOD: THE FIRST FIVE YEARS (25 min) > MONTHLY ANCESTRAL OFFERINGS IN HINDUISM (8 min.) > RADHA'S DAY: HINDU FAMILY LIFE (17 min) > PILGRIMAGE TO A HINDU TEMPLE (14 min) > HINDU PROCESSION TO THE SEA (8 min) > THE HINDU SACRAMENT OF THREAD INVESTITURE (14 min) > HINDU DEVOTIONS AT DAWN (10 min) > THE HINDU SACRAMENT OF SURRENDER (8 min) > A HINDU FAMILY CELEBRATION: 60TH BIRTHDAY (9 min) > > > IN THE NAME OF GOD (_RAM KE NAM_)* > (Anand Patwardhan. 90 minutes) > Distributor: First Run Icarus. > "In recent years, religious fundamentalism has swept across the globe. In > India, state repression has added credibility to separatist demands, but > by far the biggest danger to the nation's secular fabric comes from groups > appealing to the 80% Hindu majority to redefine India as a Hindu nation > and to put aside Gandhi's non-violent methods. Ayodhya, city of the epic > poem Ramayana, and city of a famous 16th century mosque, provides a focus > for this tragic drama. The film documents stresses between violent > impulses and non-violent efforts to prevent the spread of religious > intolerance." (_Asian Studies Newsletter_ No.2 (1993), p.9) > Also _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Jan-Feb 1993), p.4; (Jan-Feb 1994, p.7) > > > AN INDIAN PILGRIMAGE: KASHI > (Mira Reym Binford and Michael Camerini, 30 min.) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > H6: 82 > "The film begins with a detailed examination of an 1825 drawing of the > bathing steps of Kashi (Benares) ... and then abruptly shifts to shots of > the same bathing steps ... in the 1970s... The camera then leads us on a > tour of the pilgrimage centre... Halfway through the film, the film-makers > pick up two middle-class urban couples, natives of South India, who have > made the journey to Kashi. The two couples are asked their reasons for > coming... The film comes to life in the course of a long sequence on the > offerings to the ancestors when the narrator abandons his comments in > favour of subtitles which capture the dialogue between the priests and the > two couples... What is missing from the film is some explanation of the > sacred geography of the town and, indeed, of the cosmos... As it stands, > the film would make a suitable introduction to Indian pilgrimage for > students who are somewhat unfamiliar with the south Asian sub-continent." > (from description in RAI Film Catalogue, pp.26-27) > > > AN INDIAN PILGRIMAGE: RAMDEVRA > (Mira Reym Binford and Michael Camerini, 26 min.) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > H6: 82 > R-076 = AA 78,4 (1976), 958 > "Ramdev was a 15th-century warrior-saint of western India who effected > various miracles in his lifetime and whose miraculous power, according to > present-day devotees, continues to emanate from the grave where the saint > lies buried. The opening sequence of the film introduces the viewer to a > small group of Ramdev devotees living in Bombay who have decided to travel > together to the saint's shrine at Ramdevra on the occasion of the saint's > death-day... While worshipping at the shrine, one of the women in th > Bombay group becomes possessed by Ramdev. Other devotees escort the > possessed woman to a neighbouring shrine of a female disciple of Ramdev > and assist her in expressing ecstatically her devotion to Ramdev... during > the latter part of the film the camera focuses on the festival activities > of the pilgrims outside the shrine... This film touches on a number of > interesting topics in the study of Indian pilgrimage: the relationship > between the central shrine and the local organization of a cult, the > significance of women in organizing pilgrimage groups, the worship at the > same shrine of both Hindus and Muslims, and the overlay of Muslim ideas > (burial shrine of an historical personage) and Hindu ideas (Ramdev is an > incarnation of the eternal Krishna) at the same shrine. Unfortunately the > narrator does not pick up these points in sufficient detail..." There is a > good accompanying booklet; Mira Binford has also written an article on the > pilgrimage in Bardwell Smith (Ed) _Hinduism: New Essays in the History of > Religions_, Brill, Leiden 1976. (from description in RAI Film Catalogue, > pp.27-28) > > > IRAMUDUN (DISPELLING DEMONS)* > (Produced by Barrie Machin, 1985, 45 min.) > Distributor: Pennsylvania State Universty, Audio Visual Services > Sinhalese exorcistic dance-ritual. "This is an honest, competent, well- > made and instructive film. Together with Bruce Kapferer's book, _A > Celebration of Demons_,... it affords an excellent opportunity to study a > ritual process that has not been documented before... Questions about > meaning are (presumably) left for Kapferer's book to answer..." (from AA > review) > R-466 = AA 90,2 (1988), 493-4 > > > THE JAINS: A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY OF INDIA > (Marcus Banks, Caroline Humphrey and James Laidlaw, 1985, 35 min.) > Distributor: Department of Social Anthropology, Cambridge University, U.K. > Mentioned in review of AHIMSA, NON-VIOLENCE in AA 91 (1989), p.1094. > > > JAREENA: PORTRAIT OF A HIJDA > (Prem Kalliat) > Distributor: Visionova > AA 95 (1993), 517-8 > On the _hijra_ (transvestite) community of India. "Well known to Indians > is the custom a groups of _hijras_ celebrating a birth in a prosperous > household by song and dance, and by blessing the newborn... Less well > known is the caste-like structure of the _hijra_ community and its > religious cult centering on a goddess who is pleased by the sacrifice > performed by an initiated _hijra_ of "her" male genitalia. Both the caste > and the cult are detailed by Nanda [Serena Nanda, _Neither Man nor Woman_, > Wadsworth 1990]... The film centers on Jareena, a young man from Kerala > who works, dressed as a woman, in a massage parlor in Bangalore. Includes > a birth celebration; Jareena also gives a description of her ritual > castration. (From a joint review with EUNUCHS: INDIA'S THIRD GENDER. "Both > films are visually pleasing and nonsensational in tone.") > > > JVC ANTHOLOGY OF WORLD MUSIC AND DANCE* > Distributor: Rounder Records > This is a collection of thirty videocassettes, including five volumes (45- > 55 min each) on South Asia. They include several items on religious > topics, listed below. > > 11. SOUTH ASIA I (INDIA I) > 11-1 Bharata Natyam classical dance: devotional dance to Siva (8 > min) > 11-2 Kathakali: "Destruction of Duryodhana" from Mahabharata (10 > min) > 11-3 Manipuri dance: "Vasanta Ras" (Krishna and gopis) (12 min) > 11-4 Kathak dance: Rama and Sita in the forest from Ramayana (6 > min) > > 12 SOUTH ASIA II (INDIA II) > 12-1 Chhau from Purulia: (a) "Killing of the demon Mahishasur"; > (b) "Death of Abhimanyu" from Mahabharata (19 min) > 12-2 Chhau from Seraikela: several short items (14 min) > 12-3 Yakshagana: "Death of Abhimanyu" from Mahabharata (14 min) > 12-4 Hindi devotional song (2 min) > 12-5 Sikh devotional song (3 min) > > 13 SOUTH ASIA III (INDIA III) > 13-3 Epic of Pabuji (bhopa from Rajasthan) (2 min) > 13-7 to 9 Three Baul songs from Bengal (11 min) > > 14 SOUTH ASIA IV (PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH) > 14-1 and 2 two Qawwali items by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (31 min) > 14-7 Trance ritual from Hunza (4 min) > > 15 SOUTH ASIA V (SRI LANKA, NEPAL, BHUTAN) > 15-1 Excerpts from a _tovil_ (Sinhala exorcistic ritual) (8 min) > 15-10 Hindu devotional song (dapa khala) from Nepal (3 min) > 15-12 Traditional Newar dance-drama (Mahakali Pyakhan) from > Nepal (6 min) > > See critical review of the South Asian items in the anthology by Amy > Catlin and Nazir Jairazbhoy in _Asian Music_ 24,2 (Spring/Summer 1993), > 159-181. The quality of these performances is very variable, as is the > mode of presentation. Some are stage performances from Japan originating > in the Asian Traditional Performing Arts festivals (e.g. 13-7 to 9, 14- > 1,2); others are heavily edited for TV films. In many cases much better > material is available elsewhere (e.g. IRAMUDUN for Sinhala exorcistic > ritual; Pakistani commercial videotapes for Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan). There > are nevertheless some useful items, and further documentation is available > in F. Koizumi et al. _Dance and Music in South Asian Drama_, Academia > Music, Tokyo 1983 and other publications from the Asian Traditional > Performing Arts festivals. > > > KATARAGAMA* > (Produced and directed by Charlie Nairn. Anthropologist, Gananath > Obeyesekere. around 55 min.) > Distributor: Disappearing World series > R-542 = _RAIN_ 3 (1974), 8-9; AA 82,2 (1980), 579-80 > Cult of the Hindu deity of Kataragama (Skandha) in Sri Lanka. Scenes of > the annual temple festival, at which devotees make offerings, fire-walk > and in some cases hang suspended by skewers, are counterposed to the story > of a family who seek Kataragama's aid to find a lost child. > > > KHETURNI BAYA > (Sharon Wood, 1982, 19 min.) > Distributor: Pennsylvania State University, Audiovisual Services > R-793 = AA 86,1 (1984), 240-1 > A film of women's life in a Gujarati village, including some ritual > sequences. "..although one would like a more informed commentary, the film > can provide useful visual exposure to north Indian family life, > particularly the life of women, for high school or introductory college > classes dealing for the first time with Indian society and culture. Its > somewhat stereotypic description can be rounded out by a teacher > knowledgeable about [the] society..." (from AA review) > > > LESSONS FROM GULAM > (Directed by John Baily, 53 min.) > Distributor: RAI (UK); Documentary Educational Resources (USA) > AA 91 (1989), 836-8 > ".. shows how South Asian Muslims living in a mill town in northern > England gather on Sundays to speak Urdu and perform traditional music > [_qawwali_ etc.] under the guidance of a teacher named Gulam..." > > > THE LIVING GODDESS* > (Frank Homans, 50 min.) > Distributor: Cinetel Productions, Sydney, Australia > Film about the Kumari cult in Nepal, made with the assistance of Michael > Allen of the Department of Anthropology, Sydney University, cf. his book > _The Cult of Kumari_. > > > THE LONG SEARCH > (BBC series, 1977, 13 episodes, each lasts 48 min) > Distributor: BBC > This series contains two South Asian episodes, "330 Million Gods" on > Hinduism in India and "The Footprints of the Buddha" on Theravada Buddhism > in Sri Lanka > > EPISODE 1: 330 MILLION GODS* > "Visits various sites in India and observes the performance of > several types of religious ceremonies. Explores the Hindu approach to > God and the complexity of the Hindu religious experience." Ronald > Eyre's presence throughout as the naive outsider may be obtrusive, > but there is some nice video material, particularly the sequences in > a Bihar village showing Saraswati Puja, the village sadhu, etc. > > EPISODE 3: FOOTPRINT OF THE BUDDHA* > "Ronald Eyre tries to come to grips with a religion that has high > moral standards, but does not believe in a god." > > > LOVING KRISHNA > (Produced and directed by Allen Moore and Akos Ostor, 1985, 40 min) > Distributor: Centre Productions > R-272 = AA 89,1 (1987), 259-62 > Shot in Vishnupur, West Bengal. On the role of Krishna in the life of > Vishnupur. Its last half is devoted to an eight-day chariot festival > centred around Krishna. Akos Ostor's books _Play of the Gods_ (Chicago > 1980) and _Culture and Power_ (Sage 1984) provide further background. The > AA's reviewer also recommends David Kinsley's _The Sword and the Flute_ > "for students and instructors unfamiliar with Hinduism and Krishna > especially". > > > MAHARISHI MAHESH > (Conceived and narrated by Yavar Abbas, production manager Marion Abbas, > 28 min.) > Distributor: Center for Mass Communication of Columbia University Press > AA 76 (1974) 707-9 > Interviews the Maharishi at his Rishikesh centre. "Why are [all the > devotees] Westerners? Could the Maharishi possibly be catering to the > rich? The interviewer puts these and other hard questions to the > Maharishi, who offers evasive replies..." (AA review) > > > MANIFESTATIONS OF SHIVA > (Malcolm Leigh, 1980, 60 min) > Distributor: The Philadelphia Museum of Art and the Asia Society, Inc., > 725 Park Avenue, New York, NY 10021, USA > R-421 = AA 84,4 (1982), 988-9 > "Filmed in SOuth India, [the film] shows varied forms of ritual attention > to the Hindu god Shiva, with a particular focus on the ways in which > Indian artistic expression is interwoven with Shiva worship. The film is > worth viewing for its technical perfection, the extraordinary close-up > shots of devotees' faces, and for all the splendid colours and sounds that > uniquely capture the sensuous beauty of Indian art and religious life... > suffers from the brevity of its narration... most viewers will be baffled > by what they see... The film might be of use in a graduate course of > anthropological methods, to vividly drive home the initial fieldwork > frustration of observing interesting (and obviously significant) behaviour > that one is not yet equipped to understand." (from AA review) > > > MITHILA PAINTERS: FIVE VILLAGE ARTISTS FROM MADHUBANI, INDIA > (Ray Owens, 48 min.) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > "The Mithila painters of Madhubani in north India have received a degree > of notoriety in recent years. These women painters, whose art at first > adorned walls, express themselves and their topics in a distinctive > traditional style. In the video, the artists themselves come to life." > (details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Jan-Feb 1994), p.8) > > > MUNNI: CHILDHOOD AND ART IN MITHILA > (Produced by Joe Elder, directed by Raymond Owens, Ron Hess and Cheryl > Graff, 29 min.) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > AA 86 (1984) 807-8 > Includes some life-cycle rituals (first tonsure and wedding). > > > THE MURIA* > (Melissa Llewellyn-Davies [?] and Chris Curling, 1982; 50 min) > (BBC Worlds Apart series) > Distributor: RAI (UK); Films Incorporated (USA) > R-436 = AA 88,1 (1986) 271-3 > "The Muria of Central India live in a forested area encircled by > mountains. Their relative isolation has allowed them some differences from > the rest of India, in particular their lack of caste. The focus of this > film is on the institution of the _ghotul_, a dormitory within the village > where all people from about the age of twelve until their marriage must > stay. This film, like the other films of the BBC Worlds Apart series, > makes extensive use of interviews and subtitles, a technique which creates > a human and sympathetic portrayal of the Muria." > See critical review of the film in AA, focussing on its "very blatant and > ethnocentric message, that the Muria system is cruel and heartless and > causes psychological distress," on its "heavy-handed and ubiquitous" > narration, etc. > > > MURUGA > (Yvonne Hannemann) > Distributor: > R-319 = AA 76,1 (1974), 219 > > > OUR ASIAN NEIGHBOURS series > See RANA; SWAMI SHYAM; THE VILLAGE > > > PILGRIMAGE TO PITTSBURGH > (30 min video) > Distributor: Fred W. Clothey, University of Pittsburgh, Department of Arts > and Sciences, 2604 Cathedral of Learning, Pittsburgh, PA 15260. > "This is a documentary prepared for American audiences of the Sahasrakalas > abhisekam festival as performed by participants in the Sri Venkatesvara > Temple of Pittsburgh. It attempts to present the South Indian immigrant > community's self-perception as expressed through the ritual sequence - a > festival never before performed in North America and only rarely in > India." (Details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Spring 1990), p.6) > > > PLEASING GOD: A TRILOGY > See LOVING KRISHNA; SERPENT MOTHER; SONS OF SHIVA > > > PRINCIPLES OF CASTE > (Tom Selwyn, 24 min) > Distributor: RAI > "This film analyses the religious principles behind the caste system and > how these work in a Hindu marriage ceremony. Through an interview with an > untouchable and discussion with people working in various occupations, the > viewer comes to realize how much caste comes to shape every person's > life." > > > RAJ GONDS > (Chris Curling, Peter Loizos, Michael Yorke and Melissa Llewellyn-Davis > [?], 55 min) > (BBC Worlds Apart series [?]) > Distributor: RAI (UK); Films Incorporated (USA) > R-436 = AA 88,1 (1986) 271-3 > "The once powerful Raj, or ruling Gonds, have now been reduced to the > status of a tribe that needs the protection of the Indian government for > its survival. In defiance of their poverty and lack of power, the Raj > Gonds every year celebrate Dandari, a ritual of their former authority and > of their philosophy. The symbolism of Dandari is complex; riddles and > skits allow the Gonds to laugh at their fate while certain young men, > through their dress and actions, blur the distinctions between gods and > men, between men and nature. ... Anthropologist: Michael Yorke." > > > RANA > (Our Asian Neighbours series. 19 minutes) > Distributor: Film Australia > One of a series of films directed primarily at secondary schools. "The > story of a young Muslim girl student living in a crowded section of Old > Delhi. The customary veiling of women (Purdah) and impending marriage by > arrangement are examined." > > > THE SACRED COBRA* > BBC World About Us, 1982 > Distributor: ?BBC > Indian village with cobra cult > > > SERPENT MOTHER > (Produced and directed by Allen Moore and Akos Ostor, 1985, 30 min.) > Distributor: Centre Productions > R-272 = AA 89,1 (1987), 259-62 > Shot in Vishnupur, West Bengal. On the worship of the snake goddess, > Manasha, including the _jhapan_ festival in which serpent-handlers play > with cobras. Akos Ostor's books _Play of the Gods_ (Chicago 1980) and > _Culture and Power_ (Sage 1984) provide further background. The AA's > reviewer also recommends Edward Dimock's _The Thief of Love_ (Chicago > 1963) which includes a partial translation of the Manasha Mangal. > > > SHAMANS OF THE BLIND COUNTRY* > (_SCHAMANEN IM BLINDEN LAND_) > (Michael Oppitz, 223 min.) > Distributor: Media Services, University of Texas Library > R-568 = AA 90,4 (1988), 1049-50 > Michael Oppitz's 4 hr movie of Northern Magar shamans, Nepal > There is also a book of the film (in German). > "In the Himalayan region of West Nepal, the Magar peoples have preserved > their own distinctive version of the Classic Inner Asian tradition of > shamanism. The place of shamanism in Magar life is central, the mythology > is rich, the rituals are elaborate, and all of this has been exquisitely > documented in this colorful, moving film... both an original, informative > ethnography of Magar Shamanism and a landmark in ethnographic filming." > (AA review) > > > SONS OF SHIVA > Produced and directed by Robert Gardner and Akos Ostor, 1985, 28 min.) > Distributor: Centre Productions > R-272 = AA 89,1 (1987), 259-62 > Shot in Vishnupur, West Bengal. "Portrays the annual three-day _gajan_ > (calling) of the Lord Shiva, climaxing the many rituals of this deity > observed throughout the year... Trance dancing at critical moments of the > ritual is also shown, and several scenes give prominence to the > contributions of the Bauls, itinerant religious folk musicians famous in > Bengal." Akos Ostor's books _Play of the Gods_ (Chicago 1980) and _Culture > and Power_ (Sage 1984) provide further background; the AA's reviewer found > the account of the festival in _Play of the Gods_ pp.98-148 essential to > understand what was happening in the film. > > > SPIRITUAL SYMBOLISM IN INDIAN CLASSICAL DANCE > (1978, 36 min) > Distributor: Deakin University Video Publications > "An explanation and demonstration of the spiritual symbolism contained in > Indian classical dance forms. The dances are performed by Chandrabhanu, > and recorded at a Religious Experience Weekend School in 1978. Order > No.026." > > > SWAMI CHINMAYANANDA: SPIRITUAL ACTIVIST AND UNIVERSAL > TEACHER > (1984, 45 min) > Distributor: Deakin University Video Publications > "In 1984 Swami Chinmayananda, Spiritual Activist and Universal Teacher, > visited Australia. Professor Max Charlesworth, Dr Purusottama Bilimoria > and Dr Jocelyn Dunphy from Deakin University talk with the Swami who is > well respected in the East and West for his logical approach to religion. > Order No.140." > > > SWAMI KARUNANANDA > (Conceived and narrated by Yavar Abbas, production manager Marion Abbas, > 28 min.) > Distributor: Center for Mass Communication of Columbia University Press > R-002 = AA 76,3 (1974), 707-9 > Swami Karunananda is an Australian follower of Swami Shivananda; the film > follows him about his daily duties at Sivananda's Divine Life Socety in > Rishikesh. Also includes a brief discussion of Hatha Yoga "accompanied by > what can only be described as a remarkable virtuoso performance of a > number of asanas or postures... could be used by anyone lecturing on > religion in South Asia or religion in general" (AA review) > > > SWAMI SHYAM* > (Our Asian Neighbours series. 20 minutes) > Distributor: Film Australia > One of a series of films directed primarily at secondary schools. > "Involvs the audience directly in experiencing an Indian Swami. Set in the > Kulu Valley within the Himayas, the film ends with one of the Swami's > three minute lessons in meditation." > > > TIMELESS VILLAGE OF THE HIMALAYAS* > (34 min) > Distributor: BhakTV Productions Ltd > About the pilgrimage centre of Deoprayag in the Himalayas. Some nice > scenes of devotional music etc. > > > THE VILLAGE* > (Our Asian Neighbours series. c.20 minutes) > Distributor: Film Australia > One of a series of films directed primarily at secondary schools. > Made in the village in Beteille's study _Caste, Class and Power_. Some > scenes of domestic ritual (e.g. women drawing protective designs on the > ground in front of their houses). Commentary is fairly basic (designed for > secondary school audiences). > > > VISIONS AND SOUNDS: INDIAN CLASSICAL DANCE > (25 min) > Distributor: Malinis's Dances of India Troupe > This film is second in a series of tapes designed to introduce classical > Indian dance to the novice, and to enrich understanding and participation > by an initiated audience. Divided into seven parts, the artist explains > and demonstrates traditional accompaniment hand gestures, foot patterns > etc. The video is accompanied by a study guide which includes a brief > foreword about the history of classical dance in India." (Details from > _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Annual Meeting 1991)) > > > THE WAGES OF ACTION: RELIGION IN A HINDU VILLAGE > (David Thompson, 1982, 29 min.) > Distributor: South Asia Film Center, University of Wisconsin > R-750 = AA 86,3 (1984), 807-9 > A short film on popular Hinduism made in Soyepur village near Varanasi. > "...useful for initiating discussion in the classroom but it is too brief > and partial to cover any aspect of village Hinduism with the thoroughness > that a specialist would require." (AA review) > > > WEDDING OF THE GODDESS > See CHITTIRAI FESTIVAL > > > WEDDING SONG: HENNA ART AMONG PAKISTANI WOMEN IN NEW > YORK > (Susan Slyomovics and Amanda Dargan, ?1990) > Contact: Susan Slyomovics, Dept. of Performance Studies, NYU, 721 > Broadway, New York, NY 10003, USA (212) 998 1620 > AA 93,4 (1991), 1042-3 > "The art of painting the hands and feet of an Indian or Pakistani bride > during a prenuptial ceremony called _mehendi_ continues to be practised > wherever Muslim communities form. The videotape profiles Shenaz Hooda, a > _mehendi_ artist who is also a cosmetics supervisor at a large drugstore > chain in Manhattan. Shenaz participates in the dance, music, and orally > improvised songs that characteristically mock the groom, the in-laws, and > the wedding ritual." (AAA Annual Meeting abstracts) > The review suggests that the film lacks clarity and needs introduction and > interpretation for student use. > > > THE WISDOM OF A PROPHET > (136 min.) > Distribution (in Australia): Society of St Francis > "Part One: 'A New Vision of Reality in the Light of Modern Science'; Part > Two: 'A New Vision of Reality in the Light of Christian Mysticism and > Hindu Advaita." Both parts recorded during Fr Bede Griffith's visit to > Perth, Australia in 1992." > > > YATRA > (Filmed and edited by Florence Davey, 15 min.) > Distributor: Satyam Shivam Sundaram > R-180 = AA 76,3 (1974), 703-4 > On the Ardha Kumbh Mela, Allahabad, 1971 > See dismissive AA review: "almost totally useless as a learning > resource... should be withdrawn by its distributor..." > > > A ZOROASTRIAN RITUAL: THE AFRINAGAN > (James W. Boyd and Ron G. Williams, 17 min.) > Distributor: Colorado State University Instructional Service > "This was filmed in Bombay and depicts one of the most commonly repeated > public ceremonies of the Zoroastrian community. It is a beautiful service > of 'blessings,' involving offerings of flowers, fruit, wine and milk." > (details from _Asian Studies Newsletter_ (Jan-Feb 1994), p.9) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > end of file > > From mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca Wed Sep 21 15:08:39 1994 From: mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca (mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 11:08:39 -0400 Subject: Bibliography of Asian Studies Message-ID: <161227017359.23782.14463022405850638441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recently received a notice announcing publication of the 1987 and 1988 editions of the Bibliography of Asian Studies. A recent posting on the History - Asia network indicated others will soon follow, and the Association for Asian Studies is also producing a CD ROM version. Mitchell Weiss > > What happened to Bibliography of Asian studies (BAS) from Association > of Asian Studies, Univ. of Michigan? The advertisements for new > voulmes used to appear in Journal of Asian Studies. The last BAS > I saw was for the year 1986 published in 1991. It used to be a very good > source for knowing the titles of articles on India. Atleast, the new > book titles can be found thru' computer catalogs of university > libraries, but not the journal articles. > > Hope BAS hasn't ceased its publication. > > N. Ganesan > nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov mweiss at camtwh.eric.on.ca From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Sep 21 17:55:58 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 11:55:58 -0600 Subject: interpretive creativity and creative interpretation Message-ID: <161227017364.23782.7702926370528377852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was shocked, yes SHOCKED, to see the unlegalistic manner with which our dharmashastri Sri (or Sir?) Richard has taken on the Straightforward Conlon. For my turn, I completely fail to follow his reference to, apparently -- and I say apparently because his letter seems to be disfigured by a series of serious misprints or errors in the textual transmission (unexpected from such a manuscript specialist) -- "hip and waist coat greetings." Perhaps this is a reference to those neocolonialist scholars who have not yet understood that jeans and tweed are now the academic uniform? Just what sort of greetings do those who still wear waist coats give each other? -- Why, obviously "Have a Nice day!" of course! (Those scholars seem to consider Nice some sort of Mecca for academics, though why Paris seems to have lost status remains unknown; perhaps it is the superior weather in Nice.) As far as "having cows" is concerned, it is more than a little surprising that an excellent indologist like Sir Richard should have failed to notice the obvious reference to wealth -- what else could such a term mean? The term can be nothing else than an attempted translation of _gomat_. Probably the term "Simpson" is also a scribal error for "Simpleton," and the meaning that instead of using the proper Sanskrit term _gomat_ the Simpletons use the vernacular expression "have a cow," not realizing that _go_ should be taken in compound in the plural. Simpletons in their deplorable ignorance of Sanskrit say "have a cow" for _gomat_ instead of the correct "having cows." (Sir Richard, excellent knower of Sanskrit that he is, has unconsciously corrected the singular "have a cow" of the original, but apparently without realizing the importance of his intuitive correction.) This interpretation is bolstered by the context of the original expression, in which "hare-brained" immediately precedes "Simp[let]on." (The connection with the moon, shasaanka, and "looney" must not be ignored.) What do they say in the land of the Alamo? "Y'all take care now, hear?"? Respectfully, Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Wed Sep 21 17:24:24 1994 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 13:24:24 -0400 Subject: Aryans and the Indian homeland Message-ID: <161227017367.23782.1821065186471689960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Right on, Dominik! I appreciate your input and attitude in this discussion. We have never met, but I hope we do soon. One of the great things about e-mail discussions like this is that one gets a good sense of the fellow scholars in cyberspace one looks forward to meeting in addition to reading more from. Rosane Rocher. From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Wed Sep 21 01:34:34 1994 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand V Raman) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 13:34:34 +1200 Subject: DEATH OF KARL POPPER (fwd) Message-ID: <161227017346.23782.15012387838256356038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The philosopher Sir Karl Popper has died, aged 92, in a Surrey hospital. > He died in the Mayday Hospital in Croydon after a long illness. He > became world famous through publication of works such as "The Open > Society and Its Enemies", in which he sought to rebut Marxism, Fascism > and other authoritarian ideologies. Sad news indeed. Let us also not forget Sir Karl's pioneering contribution to the Philosophy of Science. - & From marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk Wed Sep 21 14:12:10 1994 From: marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk (marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 14:12:10 +0000 Subject: translation of Les quatre sens de la vie Message-ID: <161227017352.23782.10311932776783843947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dileep Karanth said: > >> Does anyone know of an English translation of the book "Les Quatre Sens >> de la Vie" by Alain Danielou? The book, I hear has a discussion of the caste >>>> system. And Noel Evans gave full bibliographic details for the French edition. I too have not heard of an English translation and more reliably neither has my local copyright library. Another recent French work which definitely is about caste is Robert Deli`ege _Le syst`eme des castes_ (Paris 1993, ISBN 2 13 045709 6) and there is a short review of this by Declan Quigley in _Cambridge Anthropology_ 17.1 1994. If it's works on caste in English that you are after then obviously Louis Dumont's massive tome _Homo hierarchicus_ is the starting point (revised English edition Chicago 1980). Declan Quigley's own _The interpretation of caste_ (Oxford and New York, Clarendon Press, 1993) is the most recent critique of Dumont and advocate of an alternative approach. Slightly older and fairly even-handed is Pauline Kolenda's _Caste in contemporary India_ (California 1978). Ronald Inden's _Imagining India_ (Blackwell, Oxford, 1990) has a chapter on early European work on caste. These are mostly anthropological works, but they are theoretical - there is a vast ethnographic literature on caste. Marcus Banks, Oxford From rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Sep 21 19:27:59 1994 From: rwl at uts.cc.utexas.edu (Richard Lariviere) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 14:27:59 -0500 Subject: interpretive creativity and creative interpretation Message-ID: <161227017371.23782.13802047350275308034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I stand flumoxed and corrected! But mostly flumoxed. ps -- Jonathan thanks very much for sending the copy of the article on Brahmin Judges in Traditional Hindu Society. It is really useful. Are you a regular reader of the journal" Deviant Behavior"? On Wed, 21 Sep 1994, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I was shocked, yes SHOCKED, to see the unlegalistic manner with > which our dharmashastri Sri (or Sir?) Richard has taken on the > Straightforward Conlon. For my turn, I completely fail to follow his > reference to, apparently -- and I say apparently because his letter seems > to be disfigured by a series of serious misprints or errors in the textual > transmission (unexpected from such a manuscript specialist) -- "hip and > waist coat greetings." Perhaps this is a reference to those neocolonialist > scholars who have not yet understood that jeans and tweed are now the > academic uniform? Just what sort of greetings do those who still wear > waist coats give each other? -- Why, obviously "Have a Nice day!" of > course! (Those scholars seem to consider Nice some sort of Mecca for > academics, though why Paris seems to have lost status remains unknown; > perhaps it is the superior weather in Nice.) > As far as "having cows" is concerned, it is more than a little > surprising that an excellent indologist like Sir Richard should have failed > to notice the obvious reference to wealth -- what else could such a term > mean? The term can be nothing else than an attempted translation of > _gomat_. Probably the term "Simpson" is also a scribal error for > "Simpleton," and the meaning that instead of using the proper Sanskrit term > _gomat_ the Simpletons use the vernacular expression "have a cow," not > realizing that _go_ should be taken in compound in the plural. Simpletons > in their deplorable ignorance of Sanskrit say "have a cow" for _gomat_ > instead of the correct "having cows." (Sir Richard, excellent knower of > Sanskrit that he is, has unconsciously corrected the singular "have a cow" > of the original, but apparently without realizing the importance of his > intuitive correction.) This interpretation is bolstered by the context of > the original expression, in which "hare-brained" immediately precedes > "Simp[let]on." (The connection with the moon, shasaanka, and "looney" must > not be ignored.) > What do they say in the land of the Alamo? "Y'all take care now, > hear?"? > > Respectfully, > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU > > Jonathan Silk > SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU > > > > >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 21 1994 Sep GMT 16:23:16 Date: 21 Sep 1994 16:23:16 GMT From: "MAIL.CORMOSEA" Subject: BAS ------------------------------------ AUTHOR: MAIL.CORMOSEA ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------- BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: cormosea at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Received: from OUCSACE.CS.OHIOU.EDU by MAIL.LOC.GOV (Soft-Switch Central V4L380P3); 21 Sep 1994 10:38:15 GMT Received: (from daemon at localhost) by oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA07588 for cormosea-outgoing; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:36:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:36:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199409211436.KAA20585 at postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ajr2 at postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: cormosea at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu From: ajr2 at cornell.edu (Allen Riedy) Subject: BAS Sender: cormosea-request at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu The 1987 and 1988 editions of the BAS have been published. I have received copies. Presumably they will be making their way to your libraries shortly if they haven't already. Allen Riedy Phone: (607) 255-8889 Echols Collection Fax: (607) 255-8438 178 Kroch Library Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 21 1994 Sep GMT 16:55:16 Date: 21 Sep 1994 16:55:16 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: RNG. TIRUMANTIRAM FR. INDIA The Tirumantiram is also available in English in this edition: 80-901563 Tirumanitram = Holy humns : with introduction, synopsis, and notes Tirumular; rendered into English by B. Natarajan. Madras : ITES Publications, copyright 1979- v. 1- >. BL1245 .S5 T4713 1979. Library of Congress seems to have received only v. 1 so far. This seems to be the same version as the Canadian publication mentioned in the network. Allen Thrasher Library of Congress >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 21 1994 Sep GMT 17:17:17 Date: 21 Sep 1994 17:17:17 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: RE: TRANS. OF LES QUATRES... RE: Dilip Karanth's Question on "Les quatre sens de la vie," by Alain Danielou, in English The following is presumably that: 92-25844 Danielou, Alain. Virtue, success, pleasure & libeation : the four aims of life in the tradition of ancient India. Rochester, Vermont : Inner Traditions International ; (Colchester, VT) : distributed to the book trade in the U.S. by American International Distribution corp. (AIDC), copyright 1993 182 p. BL1215 .L54 D36 1993 Allen Thrasher Library of Congress thrasher at mail.loc.gov >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 21 1994 Sep GMT 17:26:17 Date: 21 Sep 1994 17:26:17 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: FAIRSERVIS ON INDUS SCRIPT Pardon me if this was already answered by someone else, but the recent work by the later Walter Fairservis on the Indus script Mary McGee mentioned must be this: 91-31028 Fairservis, Walter Ashlin, 1921- The Harappan civilization and its writing ; a model for the decipherment of the Indus script Leiden : New York : E. J. Brill, 1992 PK119 .5 .F34 1992 Allen Thrasher Library of Congress thrasher at mail.loc.gov From dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Wed Sep 21 20:34:46 1994 From: dom%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (dom) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 15:34:46 -0500 Subject: Aryans and the Indian homeland Message-ID: <161227017351.23782.14647254085514763098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, I seem to have inadvertently put the cat among the pigeons! I thought my little note was a light-hearted squib to spark off some discussion on why we believe what we believe in scholarship. (I do have strongly-held views, but those who know me also know that I enjoy a good set-to in a discussion, without any rancour.) Apparently someone went so far as to consider it "hate-mail", which it certainly wasn't. (I can't think of anyone I hate....) Instead of engendering a discussion, I seem only to have provoked personal responses. So may I take this opportunity to say how interesting I thought Rob Meyer et al's musings and questions have been, on the relationship between tantra, veda and the heterodox traditions generally. I hope that this recent flurry of exchanges will not blot out that more interesting thread of discussion. It is such a pity that Alexis Sanderson does't use email (yet? much?). His direct input on this topic would be invaluable. Is there anyone in Oxford (Marcus?) who could go round and get him started up and signed on to INDOLOGY? (And Richard G. too, though he is even more technophobic than Alexis.) Dominik From brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca Wed Sep 21 22:35:07 1994 From: brzezins at epas.utoronto.ca (J.K. Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 18:35:07 -0400 Subject: Torture and execution (fwd) Message-ID: <161227017374.23782.3774896728630583512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 13:05:45 EDT From: Louis Fenech Subject: Torture and execution I was wondering whether anyone knows if the dynasties of northern India from the time of Mahmud of Ghazni to the coming of the British made use of torture and public execution. If so (and I have good reason to believe they did) for what reasons were these utilised. Were fellow Muslims also tortured (Sarmad the Jewish convert to Islam (acc. to tradition). Why? Were many non-Muslims really presented with the option of conversion to Islam or death? Was the Jizya tax as discriminatory as traditional accounts portray? I am particularly interested in legal literature in regard to torture and public execution (if such exists). As these dynasties were identified as Muslim there seems no doubt that my search will eventually take me to the Shariat. What does Muslim Law prescribe in this case is something I will look into. Again any help you can offer will be greatly appreciated. Please reply to : Lou Fenech Lfenech at epas.utoronto.ca From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thu Sep 22 13:07:48 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 08:07:48 -0500 Subject: Tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227017406.23782.12187611012092016630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tirumular's Tirumantiram ------------------------- The Tamil work, Tirumantiram has been fully translated by B. Natarajan. There is a nice Indian edition available from Sri Ramakrishna Math, Mylapore, India. It runs to about 1000 pages (8.5" by 11" size). It came out in 1992. The General editor is N. Mahalingam. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Thu Sep 22 13:07:48 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 08:07:48 -0500 Subject: Tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227017378.23782.4173089189576028803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tirumular's Tirumantiram ------------------------- The Tamil work, Tirumantiram has been fully translated by B. Natarajan. There is a nice Indian edition available from Sri Ramakrishna Math, Mylapore, India. It runs to about 1000 pages (8.5" by 11" size). It came out in 1992. The General editor is N. Mahalingam. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Thu Sep 22 14:34:07 1994 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 09:34:07 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017381.23782.8510733138749509869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi y'all. Since the new theories about who the As and the Ds were brings to this list the specter of pre-historical revisionism, I thought I'd also mention some new theories that would fall into the category of historical revisionism (not used in a pejorative sense). For instance, I have been told that Adi Sankara was not an 8th Century AD figure as is conventionally believed, but actually a 5th Century BC person. This is on account of the fact that the baseline for dating Indian historical events is the date of Alexander's incursion (invasion?) into India, which was 323 BC or thereabouts, with the Maurya dynasty and all subsequent historical events and figures being dated from then onwards. The "new" theory(-ies) claim that that was a different, later Chandragupta; i.e., the Chandragupta who defeated Seleucus Nicator was NOT the Maurya, but really Chandragupta I, the father/predecessor of Samudragupta and grand-dad to C-gupta Vikramaditya - which sets the clock back by some 600 years, since C-gupta V. is generelly assumed to have been a 3-4th cen. AD guy. The Ashoka of the edicts was not a Maurya, but actually Ashoka of the Gonadiyas, a Kashmiri dynasty (no idea how he was so id'd). The Lords Buddha is designated as an 1800 BC figure, not 500 BC. Adi Sankara "drove" Buddhism out of India in the 5th cen. BC, and Ashoka (Gonadiya) revived Buddhism in about 280 BC. Then, when did the _real_ Chandragupta Maurya live? 1550 B.C. (reason for this conclusion unknown to me). Then, adding a 1000-odd years to this (the difference between C-gupta Maurya and Adi Sankara), we have Adi Sankara at about 500 BC. Also unknown (to me, that is) is whether this new theory believes that Kautilya was contemporaneous with the earlier or later Chandragupta. Ditto for what it does to the dates of Kanishka, and yet later figures like Ramaanujacharya and Madhavacharya. And of course, Kalidasa, and other figures among the Navaratnas. And the chronologies of the various mutts supposedly estd. by Adi Sankara. Further questions abound. How did Buddhism die out in India again? No idea, at least so far. I guess if you want to know, you'll just have to Read The Books (North Americans on this list will be familiar with this marketing technique - the same employed by TIME-LIFE books to hawk its wares on TV). I don't claim to believe any of this. But in case you open minds are interested in adding to the already considerable material you have to sift through, some of the tomes that suggest these alternate dates are listed below. I haven't read them. My source who swears by these also mentioned an Australian author (a woman whose name he forgot), who also has similar theories based on the similarity between the social conditions during the Gupta dynasty and the conditions described by the Greeks at the court of Chandragupta (the one believed by unrevised history to be the Maurya). Speaking as one of those Indo-North American science types with a stricly amateur interest in the history and accomplishments of his ancestors, I might add that this had been an enjoyable couple of weeks, the occasional frayed temper and wisecrack notwithstanding (funny how Austin,TX seems to have its fair share of both types, eh?). Oh, the books. "Problems in Historical Chronology" by Shripad Kulkarni "Age of the Buddha" by Sriram Sathe "Satyartha Prakash" by Maharishi Dayanand Saraswathi [I read parts of this in my high-school days, but perhaps not the parts that have to do with alternate dates for historical events/figures] According to my source, David Frawley (and Prof. Kak?) is (are) in agreement with these new dates. So there's another connection with the ongoing debate (catfight?). Srinivas Sunder Austin, TX From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Thu Sep 22 14:34:07 1994 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 09:34:07 -0500 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017410.23782.10926478094575255629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi y'all. Since the new theories about who the As and the Ds were brings to this list the specter of pre-historical revisionism, I thought I'd also mention some new theories that would fall into the category of historical revisionism (not used in a pejorative sense). For instance, I have been told that Adi Sankara was not an 8th Century AD figure as is conventionally believed, but actually a 5th Century BC person. This is on account of the fact that the baseline for dating Indian historical events is the date of Alexander's incursion (invasion?) into India, which was 323 BC or thereabouts, with the Maurya dynasty and all subsequent historical events and figures being dated from then onwards. The "new" theory(-ies) claim that that was a different, later Chandragupta; i.e., the Chandragupta who defeated Seleucus Nicator was NOT the Maurya, but really Chandragupta I, the father/predecessor of Samudragupta and grand-dad to C-gupta Vikramaditya - which sets the clock back by some 600 years, since C-gupta V. is generelly assumed to have been a 3-4th cen. AD guy. The Ashoka of the edicts was not a Maurya, but actually Ashoka of the Gonadiyas, a Kashmiri dynasty (no idea how he was so id'd). The Lords Buddha is designated as an 1800 BC figure, not 500 BC. Adi Sankara "drove" Buddhism out of India in the 5th cen. BC, and Ashoka (Gonadiya) revived Buddhism in about 280 BC. Then, when did the _real_ Chandragupta Maurya live? 1550 B.C. (reason for this conclusion unknown to me). Then, adding a 1000-odd years to this (the difference between C-gupta Maurya and Adi Sankara), we have Adi Sankara at about 500 BC. Also unknown (to me, that is) is whether this new theory believes that Kautilya was contemporaneous with the earlier or later Chandragupta. Ditto for what it does to the dates of Kanishka, and yet later figures like Ramaanujacharya and Madhavacharya. And of course, Kalidasa, and other figures among the Navaratnas. And the chronologies of the various mutts supposedly estd. by Adi Sankara. Further questions abound. How did Buddhism die out in India again? No idea, at least so far. I guess if you want to know, you'll just have to Read The Books (North Americans on this list will be familiar with this marketing technique - the same employed by TIME-LIFE books to hawk its wares on TV). I don't claim to believe any of this. But in case you open minds are interested in adding to the already considerable material you have to sift through, some of the tomes that suggest these alternate dates are listed below. I haven't read them. My source who swears by these also mentioned an Australian author (a woman whose name he forgot), who also has similar theories based on the similarity between the social conditions during the Gupta dynasty and the conditions described by the Greeks at the court of Chandragupta (the one believed by unrevised history to be the Maurya). Speaking as one of those Indo-North American science types with a stricly amateur interest in the history and accomplishments of his ancestors, I might add that this had been an enjoyable couple of weeks, the occasional frayed temper and wisecrack notwithstanding (funny how Austin,TX seems to have its fair share of both types, eh?). Oh, the books. "Problems in Historical Chronology" by Shripad Kulkarni "Age of the Buddha" by Sriram Sathe "Satyartha Prakash" by Maharishi Dayanand Saraswathi [I read parts of this in my high-school days, but perhaps not the parts that have to do with alternate dates for historical events/figures] According to my source, David Frawley (and Prof. Kak?) is (are) in agreement with these new dates. So there's another connection with the ongoing debate (catfight?). Srinivas Sunder Austin, TX From marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk Thu Sep 22 09:38:28 1994 From: marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk (marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 09:38:28 +0000 Subject: Films on Religion in South Asia Message-ID: <161227017376.23782.9138927364464992537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the lengthy, three-part list of films and videos on South Asian religion, recently posted by 'robert l brown ' any different to the list posted (and then reposted) by Geoffrey Samuel in August? If not, then what is the reason for reposting so soon? Marcus Banks, Oxford From marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk Thu Sep 22 09:38:28 1994 From: marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk (marcus.banks at anthropology.oxford.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 09:38:28 +0000 Subject: Films on Religion in South Asia Message-ID: <161227017404.23782.13456782841090515685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the lengthy, three-part list of films and videos on South Asian religion, recently posted by 'robert l brown ' any different to the list posted (and then reposted) by Geoffrey Samuel in August? If not, then what is the reason for reposting so soon? Marcus Banks, Oxford From A.Raman at massey.ac.nz Wed Sep 21 21:52:12 1994 From: A.Raman at massey.ac.nz (Anand V Raman) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 09:52:12 +1200 Subject: Qualifications for entering into a debate Message-ID: <161227017373.23782.12601824382096942949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About laying the whole thing to rest... I have been following up this thread with interest and find I can't complain. Even most of the flames were nicely written and made good entertaining reading. As far as the content of the thread goes, if there is one thing it makes clear, it is this: After meticulous investigation, careful consideration of all available empirical evidence and profound rationalisation, a human will choose to believe bloody well what he or she wants to. This is a modified version of the one about the lab rat I heard: Under carefully controlled laboratory conditions a rat will do damn well as it pleases. :-) Cheers. - & From ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Sep 22 17:53:40 1994 From: ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca (ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 13:53:40 -0400 Subject: Thirumandiram History Message-ID: <161227017379.23782.18355978264484190055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Allen Thrasher's post about the ITES edition, here is a recent history of Thirumoolar's Thirumandiram. Information partly from the foreword to the 1993 edition and partly from David Creighton, who did the layout for the 1993 edition. 1979: Madras, ITES. Projected 10 volumes, Tamil and English. Only one volume was printed before the effort foundered. This must be the single volume that the LoC has. 1991: Madras (Mylapore, Madras 600 004), Sri Ramakrishna Math. Complete in one volume, Tamil and English. 1993: Montreal, Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications, 165 de la Gauchetiere ouest, Montreal, PQ, Canada, tel. (514) 284-3551. English only, three volumes, with new introduction, index, glossary, and illus. All three use the English translation of Dr B. Natarajan, but I am told that it has been revised somewhat from edition to edition. I have only seen the 1993 edition so I can't say how much difference there is. *Both* the 1991 and 1993 editions are available from Babaji's in Montreal, address above. Thanks to Allen Thrasher for finding the English of the Danielou book. .... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Sep 22 17:53:40 1994 From: ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca (ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 13:53:40 -0400 Subject: Thirumandiram History Message-ID: <161227017408.23782.2187916572863419711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Allen Thrasher's post about the ITES edition, here is a recent history of Thirumoolar's Thirumandiram. Information partly from the foreword to the 1993 edition and partly from David Creighton, who did the layout for the 1993 edition. 1979: Madras, ITES. Projected 10 volumes, Tamil and English. Only one volume was printed before the effort foundered. This must be the single volume that the LoC has. 1991: Madras (Mylapore, Madras 600 004), Sri Ramakrishna Math. Complete in one volume, Tamil and English. 1993: Montreal, Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications, 165 de la Gauchetiere ouest, Montreal, PQ, Canada, tel. (514) 284-3551. English only, three volumes, with new introduction, index, glossary, and illus. All three use the English translation of Dr B. Natarajan, but I am told that it has been revised somewhat from edition to edition. I have only seen the 1993 edition so I can't say how much difference there is. *Both* the 1991 and 1993 editions are available from Babaji's in Montreal, address above. Thanks to Allen Thrasher for finding the English of the Danielou book. .... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Fri Sep 23 14:00:42 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 10:00:42 -0400 Subject: two questions Message-ID: <161227017412.23782.15416094047558180906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have two entirely unrelated questions for anyone who might care to reply. The first question is about K. Kunjunni Raja in Madras. I have sent him two letters and a reminder and yet there is no response. Does anyone know his present whereabouts? The second question is about teaching an intensive Sanskrit course during the summer of 1995 at Ann Arbor. The University of Michigan has given us a go-ahead to teach such a course on a trial basis. It would be 2 to 3 hours per day, five days a week, for ten weeks. I will be teaching this course during the coming summer of 1995. I would like to get some feeling especially from my US colleagues, as to how many students can one expect to register for such a summer intensive course? Do you have any students whom you might want to send to Michigan for the summer, and then to continue later at your institution. The department of Asian Languages and Cultures would like to get some estimate of what to expect. Please respond ASAP. I need to write a memo to the Dean's office about such an estimate very soon. The proposed summer intensive course will start from the very beginning and will basically cover all the grammar of the classical language. Thanks for your assistance. Madhav Deshpande From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Fri Sep 23 14:00:42 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 10:00:42 -0400 Subject: two questions Message-ID: <161227017383.23782.14119439376270207298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have two entirely unrelated questions for anyone who might care to reply. The first question is about K. Kunjunni Raja in Madras. I have sent him two letters and a reminder and yet there is no response. Does anyone know his present whereabouts? The second question is about teaching an intensive Sanskrit course during the summer of 1995 at Ann Arbor. The University of Michigan has given us a go-ahead to teach such a course on a trial basis. It would be 2 to 3 hours per day, five days a week, for ten weeks. I will be teaching this course during the coming summer of 1995. I would like to get some feeling especially from my US colleagues, as to how many students can one expect to register for such a summer intensive course? Do you have any students whom you might want to send to Michigan for the summer, and then to continue later at your institution. The department of Asian Languages and Cultures would like to get some estimate of what to expect. Please respond ASAP. I need to write a memo to the Dean's office about such an estimate very soon. The proposed summer intensive course will start from the very beginning and will basically cover all the grammar of the classical language. Thanks for your assistance. Madhav Deshpande From ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca Fri Sep 23 15:42:47 1994 From: ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca (ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 11:42:47 -0400 Subject: Thirumandiram, address correction for Babaji's Message-ID: <161227017413.23782.6800574384312553024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my post yesterday about publication history of the Thirumandiram I left the suite number out of Babaji's address. Sorry about the error. Here is the full address: Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications 165 de la Gauchetiere ouest #608, Montreal, PQ, Canada H2Z 1X6 tel. (514) 284-3551. ... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca Fri Sep 23 15:42:47 1994 From: ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca (ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 11:42:47 -0400 Subject: Thirumandiram, address correction for Babaji's Message-ID: <161227017385.23782.8022418812855748388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my post yesterday about publication history of the Thirumandiram I left the suite number out of Babaji's address. Sorry about the error. Here is the full address: Babaji's Kriya Yoga and Publications 165 de la Gauchetiere ouest #608, Montreal, PQ, Canada H2Z 1X6 tel. (514) 284-3551. ... noel evans, ai927 at freenet.carleton.ca From dileep at math.utexas.edu Fri Sep 23 17:20:21 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 12:20:21 -0500 Subject: Torture and execution -- The Calcutta Quran petition Message-ID: <161227017418.23782.1372334961883029238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following book contains detailed information which should adequately answer Lou Fenech's question. (It is actually available in the US, and is very inexpensive, because it is published in India. In case you are interested, I can put you in touch with a distributor.) "THE CALCUTTA QURAN PETITION" This book contains the petition made by Shri Chandmal Chopra to the Calcutta High Court to have the Quran banned. The petitioner was in part motivated to do so when he enquired as to why the stream of Hindu refugees from Bangladesh did not abate even after India made immense sacrifices to help the people of Bangladesh. The detailed arguments are best read in the book. PREFACE TO "THE CALCUTTA QURAN PETITION" I Muslims in India have often sought shelter under Sections 153A and 295A of the Indian penal Code (I.P.C) for preventing every public discussion of their creed in general and of their prophet in particular. Quite a few publications which examine critically the sayings and doings of the prophet or other idolized personalities of Islam, have been proscribed under Section 95 of the Criminal Procedure Code (Cr.P.C) as a result of pressure exerted by vociferous, often violent Muslim protests. Little did they suspect that the same provisions of the law could be invoked for seeking a ban on their holy book, the Quran. The credit for this turning of tables goes to Shri Chandmal Chopra of Calcutta. It was he who filed a Writ Petition in the Calcutta High Court stating that publication of the Quran attracts Section 153a and 295A of the I.P.C because it "incites violence, disturbs public tranquility, promotes, on ground of religion, feelings of enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities and insults other religions or religious beliefs of other communities in India." He also prayed for a rule nisi on the Government of West Bengal "to show cause as to why a writ of mandamus be not issued to it directing it to declare each copy of the Quran whether in the original Arabic or in any of the languages as forfeited to the Government" in terms of Section 95 of the Cr. P.C. The case had caused considerable excitement among the "believers" and interest among the "infidels" in April-May 1985. The press in India and abroad gave many headlines to what was rightly regarded as an unprecedented event in the history of religion. The Petition was disallowed by the High Court. But the issues raised by the Petition remain pertinent. No laww court can deny to the "infidels" the right to kno what treatment the Quran prescribes for them at the hands of the "believers". Law has its limitations, particularly in a country where its main corpus continues to be what alien regimes had devised for their own political purposes. Moreover, a law court is hardly the forum for framing final judgments on matters of grave moral and spiritual import. A free and forthright discussion of the Quran cannot come to a stop simply because the existing law is not competent to take cognisance of its contents. The surahs and ayats of the Quran which Shri Chopra had cited in support of his plea, received scant or no attention at all in the heat of the controversy whether a book regarded as sacred by a large number of people can be the subject of a lawsuit. Those who have not read the Calcutta Quran Petition, as it came to be known, cannot envisage the quantum and quality of evidence marshalled by Shri Chopra. Our people are entitled to know exactly the issues that were involved. It is only a properly informed public opinion which can decidde in the long run whether a book qualifies or not as a religious scripture. This is the end we have in view while publishing verbatim the Petition as well as other papers relating to it. A brief history of the case will help in placing the Petition in its proper perspective. Most people do not know why the Petition was presented. They also do not know how the case was politicised from the very outset and what political pressures were brought into play even before the High Court had a chance to consider whether the Writ Petition could be admitted for adjudication. Chapter XV: The Petition has served a great purpose By filing the Writ petition for a ban on the Quran, Shri Chandmal Chopra has invited attention to a subject which Hindus have neglected for long and at great cost to themselves. They have yet to examine critically the claim of the Quran as a sacred script ure and of Islam as a religion. If Hinddus now take up this study in all seriousness and educate themselves about the character of Islam, the Petition will have served its purpose. Others subsections include: Mahatma Gandhi on Hindu Psycholgy, How the Quran became a "Holy Book" for Hindus, Pioneering work of Swami Dayananda, Political expediency triumphs over truth, Blinded by the Make-Beliefs, Muslims start the game again, History to be re-written, Medieval Muslim history is a commentary on the Quran, Warning from a veteran historian, A voice in the wilderness, Falsification of history becomes state policy, The fundamental Failure, and finally, Hindus should appeal to a higher court The law which prohibits Hindus from having a public discussion on the Quran embodies a disability which was once imposed upon them at the point of a sword. The law courts cannot be helpful so long as that lawless law continues on the statute book. Its repeal is a task to be undertaken by an informed public opinion. India is a democracy in which the sword of Islam is not supposed to have any sway. There is, however, a court higher than the Calcutta High Court or the Supreme Court of India. That is the court of human reason, of human values, of human conscience, of human aspirations for a purere and loftier life. The Quran should be brought before that court. The devotees of the Quran should be invited to defend it in that cort rather than in the streets. It was not so long ago that the Bible enjoyed a stranglehold similar to that of the Quran over vast populations in the West. The theocracies propped up by the Bible in Europe and America hadd enacted similar sagas of slaughter and pillage for several centuries. But a sustained Western scholarship showed up the Bible for what it was. The spell of Jehovah was broken. The rest is history. Christianity is now seeking a refuge in countries like India where its rout in the West remains unknown. A similar scholarship will not only put the Quran and its Allah in their proper place but also restore the image of Hindu spirituality which has suffered due to an adulteration of religious language. The Muslim mulla and the Christian missionary had an upper hand so long as Islamic andd Christian-Western imperialism prevailed in this country. A class of Hindu scholars learnt from them how to process Hindu spirituality and culture in terms of Islamic and Christian monolaties. It is that class which still passes for what is known as India's "intellectual elite". .... ) XVI A close look at Allah Section II etc... From dileep at math.utexas.edu Fri Sep 23 17:20:21 1994 From: dileep at math.utexas.edu (Dileep Karanth) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 12:20:21 -0500 Subject: Torture and execution -- The Calcutta Quran petition Message-ID: <161227017390.23782.4520977353953047297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following book contains detailed information which should adequately answer Lou Fenech's question. (It is actually available in the US, and is very inexpensive, because it is published in India. In case you are interested, I can put you in touch with a distributor.) "THE CALCUTTA QURAN PETITION" This book contains the petition made by Shri Chandmal Chopra to the Calcutta High Court to have the Quran banned. The petitioner was in part motivated to do so when he enquired as to why the stream of Hindu refugees from Bangladesh did not abate even after India made immense sacrifices to help the people of Bangladesh. The detailed arguments are best read in the book. PREFACE TO "THE CALCUTTA QURAN PETITION" I Muslims in India have often sought shelter under Sections 153A and 295A of the Indian penal Code (I.P.C) for preventing every public discussion of their creed in general and of their prophet in particular. Quite a few publications which examine critically the sayings and doings of the prophet or other idolized personalities of Islam, have been proscribed under Section 95 of the Criminal Procedure Code (Cr.P.C) as a result of pressure exerted by vociferous, often violent Muslim protests. Little did they suspect that the same provisions of the law could be invoked for seeking a ban on their holy book, the Quran. The credit for this turning of tables goes to Shri Chandmal Chopra of Calcutta. It was he who filed a Writ Petition in the Calcutta High Court stating that publication of the Quran attracts Section 153a and 295A of the I.P.C because it "incites violence, disturbs public tranquility, promotes, on ground of religion, feelings of enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities and insults other religions or religious beliefs of other communities in India." He also prayed for a rule nisi on the Government of West Bengal "to show cause as to why a writ of mandamus be not issued to it directing it to declare each copy of the Quran whether in the original Arabic or in any of the languages as forfeited to the Government" in terms of Section 95 of the Cr. P.C. The case had caused considerable excitement among the "believers" and interest among the "infidels" in April-May 1985. The press in India and abroad gave many headlines to what was rightly regarded as an unprecedented event in the history of religion. The Petition was disallowed by the High Court. But the issues raised by the Petition remain pertinent. No laww court can deny to the "infidels" the right to kno what treatment the Quran prescribes for them at the hands of the "believers". Law has its limitations, particularly in a country where its main corpus continues to be what alien regimes had devised for their own political purposes. Moreover, a law court is hardly the forum for framing final judgments on matters of grave moral and spiritual import. A free and forthright discussion of the Quran cannot come to a stop simply because the existing law is not competent to take cognisance of its contents. The surahs and ayats of the Quran which Shri Chopra had cited in support of his plea, received scant or no attention at all in the heat of the controversy whether a book regarded as sacred by a large number of people can be the subject of a lawsuit. Those who have not read the Calcutta Quran Petition, as it came to be known, cannot envisage the quantum and quality of evidence marshalled by Shri Chopra. Our people are entitled to know exactly the issues that were involved. It is only a properly informed public opinion which can decidde in the long run whether a book qualifies or not as a religious scripture. This is the end we have in view while publishing verbatim the Petition as well as other papers relating to it. A brief history of the case will help in placing the Petition in its proper perspective. Most people do not know why the Petition was presented. They also do not know how the case was politicised from the very outset and what political pressures were brought into play even before the High Court had a chance to consider whether the Writ Petition could be admitted for adjudication. Chapter XV: The Petition has served a great purpose By filing the Writ petition for a ban on the Quran, Shri Chandmal Chopra has invited attention to a subject which Hindus have neglected for long and at great cost to themselves. They have yet to examine critically the claim of the Quran as a sacred script ure and of Islam as a religion. If Hinddus now take up this study in all seriousness and educate themselves about the character of Islam, the Petition will have served its purpose. Others subsections include: Mahatma Gandhi on Hindu Psycholgy, How the Quran became a "Holy Book" for Hindus, Pioneering work of Swami Dayananda, Political expediency triumphs over truth, Blinded by the Make-Beliefs, Muslims start the game again, History to be re-written, Medieval Muslim history is a commentary on the Quran, Warning from a veteran historian, A voice in the wilderness, Falsification of history becomes state policy, The fundamental Failure, and finally, Hindus should appeal to a higher court The law which prohibits Hindus from having a public discussion on the Quran embodies a disability which was once imposed upon them at the point of a sword. The law courts cannot be helpful so long as that lawless law continues on the statute book. Its repeal is a task to be undertaken by an informed public opinion. India is a democracy in which the sword of Islam is not supposed to have any sway. There is, however, a court higher than the Calcutta High Court or the Supreme Court of India. That is the court of human reason, of human values, of human conscience, of human aspirations for a purere and loftier life. The Quran should be brought before that court. The devotees of the Quran should be invited to defend it in that cort rather than in the streets. It was not so long ago that the Bible enjoyed a stranglehold similar to that of the Quran over vast populations in the West. The theocracies propped up by the Bible in Europe and America hadd enacted similar sagas of slaughter and pillage for several centuries. But a sustained Western scholarship showed up the Bible for what it was. The spell of Jehovah was broken. The rest is history. Christianity is now seeking a refuge in countries like India where its rout in the West remains unknown. A similar scholarship will not only put the Quran and its Allah in their proper place but also restore the image of Hindu spirituality which has suffered due to an adulteration of religious language. The Muslim mulla and the Christian missionary had an upper hand so long as Islamic andd Christian-Western imperialism prevailed in this country. A class of Hindu scholars learnt from them how to process Hindu spirituality and culture in terms of Islamic and Christian monolaties. It is that class which still passes for what is known as India's "intellectual elite". .... ) XVI A close look at Allah Section II etc... From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Fri Sep 23 16:24:50 1994 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 17:24:50 +0100 Subject: ACADEMIC BOOK SERVICE Message-ID: <161227017388.23782.13182890305774332963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I trust the following brief advertisement will not be considered inappropriate on this list. A recently retired colleague is trying to start up a second-hand book service for academics and students in the UK, especially but not only in the following subject areas: classics * history * indology & oriental * philosophy * psychology * theology * religious studies * politics Requests for booklists, stating area(s) of interest, can for the moment be forwarded via my email address: p.g.moore at ukc.ac.uk Please head requests and enquiries as RE: ACADEMIC BOOK SERVICE Peter Moore, Canterbury, Kent From P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk Fri Sep 23 16:24:50 1994 From: P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk (P.G.Moore at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 17:24:50 +0100 Subject: ACADEMIC BOOK SERVICE Message-ID: <161227017417.23782.1160075222561490066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I trust the following brief advertisement will not be considered inappropriate on this list. A recently retired colleague is trying to start up a second-hand book service for academics and students in the UK, especially but not only in the following subject areas: classics * history * indology & oriental * philosophy * psychology * theology * religious studies * politics Requests for booklists, stating area(s) of interest, can for the moment be forwarded via my email address: p.g.moore at ukc.ac.uk Please head requests and enquiries as RE: ACADEMIC BOOK SERVICE Peter Moore, Canterbury, Kent From ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Fri Sep 23 17:10:41 1994 From: ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 18:10:41 +0100 Subject: List of village names in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227017415.23782.9364426352492533610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Institute of Indology & Tamil Studies, Cologne University, Germany has released a WAIS database containing > 22,000 names of villages in TN together with district and taluk on their gopher at linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de in the directory "Tamilnadu Geographical Names Server/" The place names are given both in English and Tamil as used officially. Corrections and additions are welcome. -Thomas Malten ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, Pohligstr.1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel 0221/4705340 Fax 0221/4705151 email ami01 at rrz.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Fri Sep 23 17:10:41 1994 From: ami01 at rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Thomas Malten) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 18:10:41 +0100 Subject: List of village names in Tamilnadu Message-ID: <161227017387.23782.4520959257676099032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Institute of Indology & Tamil Studies, Cologne University, Germany has released a WAIS database containing > 22,000 names of villages in TN together with district and taluk on their gopher at linus.informatik.uni-koeln.de in the directory "Tamilnadu Geographical Names Server/" The place names are given both in English and Tamil as used officially. Corrections and additions are welcome. -Thomas Malten ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Institute of Indology and Tamil Studies, Pohligstr.1, 50969 Koeln, Germany Tel 0221/4705340 Fax 0221/4705151 email ami01 at rrz.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jleslie%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Sat Sep 24 03:40:51 1994 From: jleslie%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (jleslie) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 22:40:51 -0500 Subject: Light relief Message-ID: <161227017420.23782.13541396787742610121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the tone of some recent contributions has been a little heavy... just for fun, and with thanks to Peter Moore who originally posted this on another discussion list, I offer you the following: ******************************************************************** In a Tokyo Hotel: Is forbidden to steal hotel towels please.. if you are not a person to do such thing is please not to read notis. In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable. In a Leipzig elevator: Do not enter the lift backwards, and only when lit up. In a Belgrade hotel elevator: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is not then going alphabetically by national order. In a Paris hotel elevator: Please your values at the front desk. In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 am daily. In a Yugoslavian hotel: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid. In a Japanese hotel: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid. In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from the Russian Orthodox monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetery where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists and writers are buried daily except Thursday. In an Austrian hotel catering to skiers: Not to perambulate the corridors in the hours of repose in the boots of ascension. On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave you nothing to hope for. On the menu of a Polish hotel: Salad a firm's own make: limpid red beet soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion. Outside a Hong Kong tailor shop: Ladies may have a fit upstairs. In a Bangkok dry cleaners: Drop your trousers here for best results. Outside a Paris dress shop: Dresses for street walking. In a Rhodes tailor shop: Order your summers suits. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation. A sign posted in Germany's Black Forest: It is strictly forbidden on our black forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men and women, live together in one tent unless they are married with each other for that purpose. In a Zurich hotel: Because of the impropriety of entertaining guests of the opposite sex in the bedroom, it is suggested that the lobby be used for this purpose. In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by the latest Methodists. In a Rome laundry: Ladies, leave your clothes here and spend the afternoon having a good time. In a Czechoslovakian tourist agency: Take one of our horse-driven city tours - we guarantee no miscarriages. Advertisement for sonkey rides in Thailand: Would you like to ride on your own ass? In a Swiss mountain inn: Special today -- no ice cream. In a Bangkok temple: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man. In a Tokyo bar: Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts. In a Copenhagen airline ticket office: We take your bags and send them in all directions. On the door of a Moscow hotel room: If this is your first visit to the USSR, you are welcome to it. In a Norwegian cocktail lounge: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar. In a Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty. In an office of a Roman doctor: Specialist in women and other diseases. In an Acapulco hotel: The manager has personally passed all the water served here. In a Tokyo shop: Our nylons cost more than common, but you'll find they are best in the long run. >From a Japanese information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner: Cooles and Heates: if you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself. >From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage, tootle him with vigor. Two signs from a Majorcan shop entrance: - English well talking - Here speeching American Sign in a shop in Merida, Mexico: Broken English spoken fluently. ---- Julia Leslie From jleslie%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in Sat Sep 24 03:40:51 1994 From: jleslie%vigyan.ernet.in at vigyan.iisc.ernet.in (jleslie) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 22:40:51 -0500 Subject: Light relief Message-ID: <161227017392.23782.8555547817018476665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the tone of some recent contributions has been a little heavy... just for fun, and with thanks to Peter Moore who originally posted this on another discussion list, I offer you the following: ******************************************************************** In a Tokyo Hotel: Is forbidden to steal hotel towels please.. if you are not a person to do such thing is please not to read notis. In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable. In a Leipzig elevator: Do not enter the lift backwards, and only when lit up. In a Belgrade hotel elevator: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is not then going alphabetically by national order. In a Paris hotel elevator: Please your values at the front desk. In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 am daily. In a Yugoslavian hotel: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid. In a Japanese hotel: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid. In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from the Russian Orthodox monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetery where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists and writers are buried daily except Thursday. In an Austrian hotel catering to skiers: Not to perambulate the corridors in the hours of repose in the boots of ascension. On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave you nothing to hope for. On the menu of a Polish hotel: Salad a firm's own make: limpid red beet soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion. Outside a Hong Kong tailor shop: Ladies may have a fit upstairs. In a Bangkok dry cleaners: Drop your trousers here for best results. Outside a Paris dress shop: Dresses for street walking. In a Rhodes tailor shop: Order your summers suits. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation. A sign posted in Germany's Black Forest: It is strictly forbidden on our black forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men and women, live together in one tent unless they are married with each other for that purpose. In a Zurich hotel: Because of the impropriety of entertaining guests of the opposite sex in the bedroom, it is suggested that the lobby be used for this purpose. In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by the latest Methodists. In a Rome laundry: Ladies, leave your clothes here and spend the afternoon having a good time. In a Czechoslovakian tourist agency: Take one of our horse-driven city tours - we guarantee no miscarriages. Advertisement for sonkey rides in Thailand: Would you like to ride on your own ass? In a Swiss mountain inn: Special today -- no ice cream. In a Bangkok temple: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man. In a Tokyo bar: Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts. In a Copenhagen airline ticket office: We take your bags and send them in all directions. On the door of a Moscow hotel room: If this is your first visit to the USSR, you are welcome to it. In a Norwegian cocktail lounge: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar. In a Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty. In an office of a Roman doctor: Specialist in women and other diseases. In an Acapulco hotel: The manager has personally passed all the water served here. In a Tokyo shop: Our nylons cost more than common, but you'll find they are best in the long run. >From a Japanese information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner: Cooles and Heates: if you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself. >From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage, tootle him with vigor. Two signs from a Majorcan shop entrance: - English well talking - Here speeching American Sign in a shop in Merida, Mexico: Broken English spoken fluently. ---- Julia Leslie From rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Sat Sep 24 13:11:22 1994 From: rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 15:11:22 +0200 Subject: ven. Rahula Message-ID: <161227017422.23782.11971648184849895807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please, does anybody know address of ven. Walpola Rahula of Shri Lanka? Thanks, Miroslav Rozehnal, Institut of Indology, Charles Univerity, Prague, rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz Sat Sep 24 13:11:22 1994 From: rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz (rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 15:11:22 +0200 Subject: ven. Rahula Message-ID: <161227017394.23782.13714664671545106633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please, does anybody know address of ven. Walpola Rahula of Shri Lanka? Thanks, Miroslav Rozehnal, Institut of Indology, Charles Univerity, Prague, rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz From magier at columbia.edu Sun Sep 25 14:57:54 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: Computer font info Message-ID: <161227017396.23782.3051035429258845966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The URL (Uniform Resource Locator) for the searchable databases at ANU > is: http://cheops.anu.edu/11/Cooms-db > > ANU's variety of Coombs databases can also be accessed using a gopher client > such as Turbogopher. In addition to the wais searchable files, they have > separate sections for most of the Asian nations with links to related > sites/files around the world. It's a very useful resource. > > Merry > > Merry, the above URL seems to be incorrect. I assume the serve should be "cheops.anu.edu.au" rather than the form without 'au' that you listed. But also, the directory listing you gave in the rest of the URL is wrong (even if one writes Coombs-db instead of Cooms-db). Could you repost this with the right form of the URL so we can get at it? (Particularly looking for the asian fonts info you mentioned, in the "Asian computing database"). Many thanks. David From magier at columbia.edu Sun Sep 25 14:57:54 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: Computer font info Message-ID: <161227017442.23782.10668326277974123000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [ repost by list.admin at liverpool.ac.uk] > The URL (Uniform Resource Locator) for the searchable databases at ANU > is: http://cheops.anu.edu/11/Cooms-db > > ANU's variety of Coombs databases can also be accessed using a gopher client > such as Turbogopher. In addition to the wais searchable files, they have > separate sections for most of the Asian nations with links to related > sites/files around the world. It's a very useful resource. > > Merry > Merry, the above URL seems to be incorrect. I assume the serve should be "cheops.anu.edu.au" rather than the form without 'au' that you listed. But also, the directory listing you gave in the rest of the URL is wrong (even if one writes Coombs-db instead of Cooms-db). Could you repost this with the right form of the URL so we can get at it? (Particularly looking for the asian fonts info you mentioned, in the "Asian computing database"). Many thanks. David From dran at cs.albany.edu Mon Sep 26 16:25:11 1994 From: dran at cs.albany.edu (Paliath Narendran) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 12:25:11 -0400 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227017400.23782.9903222931600888017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone send me the (e-mail or postal) address of Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty)? Thanks, Paliath Narendran From SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Sep 26 19:01:17 1994 From: SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU (SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 13:01:17 -0600 Subject: A Question of Tone Message-ID: <161227017403.23782.10564253530389650030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rob Mayer has raised a good point. Much of the problem in recent discussions, he suggests, has "a lot to do with academic cultures and styles...." He further refers to his own presentation at SOAS, apparently ill-received, despite the feelings of some that "it hit the right tone!" Perhaps much of the problem is indeed one of "tone," more than content -- although certainly the latter is far from irrelevant. We may all find out that we are more effective in communicating our messages to each other if we are willing to entertain the possibility that our accustomed "tone" is not taken by all in the spirit in which it was intended. Socio-linguists have written mountains about this, and a good accessible starting point to familiarize oneself with such issues are the popular books of Deborah Tannen, "You Just Don't Understand" and "That's Not What I Meant." I often had the feeling as I read these books that what she was saying was obvious -- but I had never quite formulated the ideas to myself in her terms before: this is always the sign of a good and convincing argument. It is sometimes hard to remember that on the electronic "super highway" we are addressing not only those we know, and whose worlds we know, but also those who live in conceptual worlds far different from our own. It may take some getting used to, especially since we tend to treat these communications more more like telephone calls than as writing -- we tend to less of the "think before you speak" type of reflection than we would were we even writing a letter, much less an academic paper. Well, I know I especially tend to prattle on here, so .... "Have a nice day!" Jonathan Silk SILK at AC.GRIN.EDU From R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk Mon Sep 26 14:09:44 1994 From: R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk (R.Mayer at ukc.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 15:09:44 +0100 Subject: Aryans and the Indian homeland Message-ID: <161227017398.23782.6515077012341711144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the hornets nest stirred up by Dominik's comments is a lot to do with academic cultures and styles that vary from place to place. Dom had the immense good fortune to study Sanskrit at Oxford, and Oxford is a place that sees the kind of vigorous debate Dom went in for as good fun and lively and interesting and altogether to be encouraged. Alas, this style is often misunderstood elswhere. As Julia Leslie, Dom's wife, can possibly remember, I once stirred up a similar hornets nest at SOAS by delivering a paper that blasted the "non-Aryan" theory of Tantric origins to see if it could withstand such a blast. Unfortunately, I had not reckoned on the fact that most of my audience adhered to versions of the "non-Aryan" theory, and were outraged by my paper. This despite the fact that Richard Gombrich, Sanjukta Gupta, and others had all read it before presentation and thought it hit the right tone! So what goes in Oxford (or here at UKC for that matter) as good-fun debate is interpreted as vicious hate-mail in circles with different cultures. I know the feeling, Dom. But I still feel that as scholars, we must be able to debate with vigour and remain good-humoured all the while. To have one's pet theories blown up is a good oppurtunity for intellectual growth, and a good reason to hold a champagne wake to happily mourn the passing of a wrong view. As Spike Milligan observed one Christmas, "Merry Crumble and a Happy New Era!" Rob (Or was it Spike Milligan?) From sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Mon Sep 26 20:32:22 1994 From: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com (Srinivas Sunder) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 15:32:22 -0500 Subject: Skt. - Latin Message-ID: <161227017423.23782.6529029480668737060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could somebody suggest some good books which discuss the link(s) between Sanskrit and Latin? Similarities in the vocabulary of the two languages are chiefly what I am looking for. Replies may be made to ths list, or by e-mail to: sunder at crystal.cirrus.com Srinivas Sunder Austin, TX. From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Mon Sep 26 22:36:38 1994 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 15:36:38 -0700 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians Message-ID: <161227017425.23782.345870302636219935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srinivas Sunder writes: > For instance, I have been told that Adi Sankara was not an 8th Century AD > figure as is conventionally believed, but actually a 5th Century BC person. > This is on account of the fact that the baseline for dating Indian historical > events is the date of Alexander's incursion (invasion?) into India, which was > 323 BC or thereabouts, with the Maurya dynasty and all subsequent historical > events and figures being dated from then onwards. This theory has been propounded mainly by the Kanchi Kamakoti Sankara Mutt, mostly to prove their antiquity compared to the four "canonical" mutts established by Sankara. The 5th Century BC date of Sankara has been effectively refuted by many people. The most available analysis is the one contained in the introduction to "Sankara Digvijaya -- The Traditional Life of Sri Sankaracharya", translated by Swami Tapasyananda of the Madras Ramakrishna Math. Proponents of the Sringeri Sankara Math (Karnataka state) have also been very vigorous in combating the rewriting of history by the 5th Century BC advocates, since such a theory directly affects the history of their mutt as well. Mani From williams at uhdux2.dt.uh.edu Mon Sep 26 23:17:32 1994 From: williams at uhdux2.dt.uh.edu (williams at uhdux2.dt.uh.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 18:17:32 -0500 Subject: ACADEMIC BOOK SERVICE Message-ID: <161227017427.23782.1664516933282982954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter: I wonder if it might be possible to send me book lists in the various areas of Hinduism. I'm not sure just how the lists are categorized but perhaps knowing that this is my area of interest, you could choose the appropriate lists for me. Many thanks. _______________________________________________________________________ Patrick S. Williams | Dept. of Social Sciences, U. of Houston-Downtown pwilliams at uh.edu | One Main Street, Houston, TX 77002-1001 | voice: (713) 221-8982, fax: (713) 221-8144 From bhagavam at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Tue Sep 27 00:29:40 1994 From: bhagavam at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (manu bhagavan) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 19:29:40 -0500 Subject: Torture and execution -- The Calcutta Quran petition Message-ID: <161227017432.23782.10760575123677415859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Look, and I am sure that I do not speak for everyone, but I for one am sick and tired of having my mailbox clustered by these anti-Muslim, semi-fanatic hate-orientred messages. Dileep Karanth's latest posting about the banning of the Quran is the last straw (for me anyway). I think authors of such mail should keep their postings private (i.e., between the concerned parties of the discussion). I am in no way trying to hamper the free expression of thoughts, but the series of postings over the past month have proven that...certain parties are only interested in communicating the "hidden truth" of Indian history that they believe Western scholars to be covering up. Might I suggest that these parties READ some of the "Western" (is JNU material Western? (rhetorical, of course)) scholarship before making erroneous judgments and leaping to false conclusions. Manu Bhagavan History Graduate Student Editor, _Sagar: South Asia Graduate Research Journal_ From adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 27 03:44:23 1994 From: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu (adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 20:44:23 -0700 Subject: Addendum to Light Relief (2) Message-ID: <161227017436.23782.11043622950814314633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Why God Never Received Tenure at a University: > ------------------------------------------------ > 1. Because He had only one major publication. > 2. And it was in Hebrew. > 3. And it had no references. > 4. And it wasn't published in a refereed journal. > 5. And some even doubt that He wrote it Himself. > 6. It may be true that He created the world, > but what has He published/done since? > 7. His cooperative efforts have been quite limited. > 8. The scientific community has had a very rough time > trying to replicate His results. Eight more reasons why God never received tenure at any university: 9. He never applied to the Ethics Board for permission to use human subjects. 10. When one experiment went awry he tried to cover it up by drowning the subjects. 11. When subjects didn't behave as predicted, he deleted them from the sample. 12. He rarely came to class, just told students to read the Book. 13. Some say he had his son teach the class. 14. He expelled his first two students for learning. 15. Although there were only ten requirements, most students failed his tests. 16. His office hours were infrequent and usually held on a mountaintop. Cheers, Aditya Behl Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, 1203, Dwinelle Hall, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720. Electronic Mail: adi at uclink2.berkeley.edu Telephone: 1 (510) 642-1610 (O), 843-1264 (R) Facsimile: 1 (510) 642-3582 From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Tue Sep 27 01:12:01 1994 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 21:12:01 -0400 Subject: Skt. - Latin Message-ID: <161227017434.23782.9133300852963607283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I am right that are at UT, Austin, you may wish to attend courses by Professor Edgar Polome. This should give you all the information you need and more. Rosane Rocher. From giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it Tue Sep 27 01:07:25 1994 From: giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it (carlo della casa) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 01:07:25 +0000 Subject: Light relief/just overheard Message-ID: <161227017428.23782.11552257308676851026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This came on the air on a private radio near Bergamo, just yesterday evening. "...thirty-two people were killed, of which 70 were injured" Alex Passi From LHEDRICK at delphi.com Tue Sep 27 05:40:04 1994 From: LHEDRICK at delphi.com (LINDA HEDRICK) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 01:40:04 -0400 Subject: Light relief Message-ID: <161227017440.23782.3006070670367949432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Julia! WA hotel I was staying in at in Madras had huges sige signs hanging both inside and outside the front door. The outside sign read "Entrance In", and the outside signsinside sign read "Entrance Out". A few weeks later I passed a laundry in Bombay with a sign that said: "Ladies, leave your clothes with us and enjoy your day." My boyfriendA little closer to home...my boyfriend's favorite Chinese restaurant in Washington sta te has a sign in the parking lot that warns, "Parkers will be violated." Linda Hedrick lhedrick at delphi.com izzyym8 at mvs.oac.ucla.edu From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Tue Sep 27 13:30:46 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 09:30:46 -0400 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians--Change of course requested Message-ID: <161227017443.23782.17625477798684586952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Jayant Bapat's question about Marathi Brahmins and their attitudes about Aryanism, please consult the discussion and bibliography in my 1979 book: "Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India: A Historical Reconstruction", Karoma Publishers Inc., Ann Arbor. Madhav Deshpande From phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Sep 27 00:11:59 1994 From: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 12:11:59 +1200 Subject: Light relief (2) Message-ID: <161227017430.23782.11570192291477161497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Julia. I think we all needed that. Here's another: Why God Never Received Tenure at a University: ------------------------------------------------ 1. Because He had only one major publication. 2. And it was in Hebrew. 3. And it had no references. 4. And it wasn't published in a refereed journal. 5. And some even doubt that He wrote it Himself. 6. It may be true that He created the world, but what has He published/done since? 7. His cooperative efforts have been quite limited. 8. The scientific community has had a very rough time trying to replicate His results. ------- Byeonggile Ahn Bo Sax Head of Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch-I New Zealand Tel. (03) 364-2230 FAX (03) 364-2007 e-mail: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz From jwg2 at cornell.edu Tue Sep 27 17:21:43 1994 From: jwg2 at cornell.edu (jwg2 at cornell.edu) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 13:21:43 -0400 Subject: ven. Rahula Message-ID: <161227017445.23782.11152515793278056311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please, does anybody know address of Ven. Walpola Rahula of Shri Lanka? > >Thanks, Miroslav Rozehnal, Institut of Indology, Charles Univerity, >Prague, rozehnal at praha1.ff.cuni.cz > The Venerable Walpola Rahula is currently Chancellor of The University of Kelaniya, Kelaniya, Sri Lanka. Correspondence so directed should reach him there. He also has a residence at Jayawardanapura (Nugegoda) Sri Lanka. I do not have the exact address with me, but he is sufficiently well known there that correspondence should find him there as well. I hope that this will do. > From Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au Tue Sep 27 14:58:10 1994 From: Jayant.B.BAPAT at sci.monash.edu.au (BAPAT JB) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 14:58:10 +0000 Subject: Aryans and Dravidians--Change of course requested Message-ID: <161227017438.23782.12977029379146082762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear fellow list-members Since I raised this issue some time ago, there has been a large volume of mail on this network and a small amount of it has been quite useful to me. I am very grateful to those people who contributed to the discussion and suggested reference works that I could peruse. I am sorry that some of the discussion has produced some unpleasantness and a rather unsavoury and totally unnecessary pollution of the normally pristine academic information-exchange.Such, unfortunately is life. Having perused many of the available works, I have come to the conclusion that:1)There is a reasonably serious challenge to the Aryan invasion theory 2)Unfortunately the proponents of the challenge themselves have no firm conclusive evidence to justify their case and 3) This whole area is in need of some totally unbiased and thorough research. I STAND CORRECTED and apologise for my naive summation. My original point however was somewhat different. In my researches I have encountered this perception on the part of the present day Marathi Brahmins that they are Aryans, Shiva is a non-Aryan god and the south Indians are non-Aryans. I find it a bit simplistic to blame this on the teachings of the wicked British (or the Poms as we fondly call them in Oz.) Wrong as it is, where did this perception come from? And it does not pertain only to the Marathi Brahmins any way. We all know how the DMK in the south burned the Ramayana some years ago. My trips to North India have also shown that the same thinking as the Marathi Brahmins persists there as well. This apparent rivalry between the North and the South must surely predate poor old British. What is the reason behind this phenomenon? Is there any research in this area? These are the questions I need to answer in order to understand and explain the strange case of the Temple- priest in Maharashtra. If I am stirring another hornet's nest, my sincere apologies. Jayant Bapat ____________________________________________________________________ Dr J.B. Bapat Phone (03)9054510 Chemistry Department Fax (03)9054597 Monash University e-mail:jayant.b.bapat at sci.monash.edu.au Clayton, Victoria Australia --------------------------------------------------------------------- _ From magier at columbia.edu Tue Sep 27 19:37:15 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 15:37:15 -0400 Subject: SYMPOSIUM ANNOUNCEMENT (9/29/94) Message-ID: <161227017448.23782.1992950843866135018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Asia Society has asked me to post this announcement to these listservs for them. Please correspond (by phone as below) directly with The Asia Society with questions, rather than with me. David Magier (South Asia Gopher) ---------------cut here-------------------------------- CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT: South Asia & the United States After the Cold War: An International Symposium Thursday, September 29, 1994 9:00am to 6:15pm THE ASIA SOCIETY 725 Park Avenue New York, NY for info, call Katie Simpson at 212-288-6400, extension 292. The Asia Society sponsored a study mission to South Asia that visited the region from March 22 - April 8, 1994 and which has just published its report. The study mission, which consisted of thirteen prominent Americans, analyzed U.S. policies toward South Asia, sought South Asian views on those policies, and formulated an assessment of the adequacy of those policies and changes which may be needed. This symposium's primary purpose is to bring the results of the study mission and sponses to the study mission report from South Asian participants to a broad public in order to encourage wider debate about the American relationship with South Asia. AGENDA 9:00-10:00 The Future of U.S.-South Asian Relations Marshall M. Bouton Study Mission Member and The Asia Society, New York O. Peter Sherwood Study Mission Member and Kalkines, Arky, Zali & Bernstein 10:00-11:00 Keynote Address H. E. Salman Khurshid Minister of External Affairs of India 11:00-11:15 Coffee Break 11:15-12:00 Critical Issues in U.S.-South Asian Relations I: Development and the Environment in South Asia Qazi Faruque Ahmed Proshika MUK, Dhaka 12:00-12:45 Critical Issues in U.S.-South Asian Relations II: Women in Society and Development Raunaq Jahan Columbia University Khushi Kabir Nijera Kori, Dhaka 12:45-2:30 Lunch Mahbubul Haq, UNDP 2:30-3:30 Critical Issues in U.S.-South Asian Relations III: The Resurgent Economies of South Asia Isher J. Ahluwalia Centre for Policy Research 3:30-3:45 Coffee Break 3:45-5:00 Critical Issues in U.S.-South Asian Relations IV: Regional Security Shelton Kodikara Regional Center for Strategic Studies, Colombo Sumit Ganguli Hunter College Shankar Bajpai Brandeis University 5:00-6:15 Critical Issues in U.S.-South Asian Relations V: Democracy, Governance and Human Rights Philip Oldenburg Columbia University Soli Sorabjeei Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India Mrs. Rama Devi Secretary General, Rajya Sabha ---------- Conference Rates: $35 members $45 nonmembers $15 students From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Sep 28 01:05:56 1994 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 18:05:56 -0700 Subject: K. Raja's address Message-ID: <161227017450.23782.2838332270546610366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Prof. Madhav Deshpande's inquiry: The address I have for Prof. K. Kunjunni Raja is: Office: Adyar Library & Research Centre, Theosophical Society, Madras 600 020. Residence: 3 Sri Ram Colony, Theosophical Society, Madras 600 020. From pslvax!mcimail.com!0003503090 at UCSD.EDU Wed Sep 28 00:49:00 1994 From: pslvax!mcimail.com!0003503090 at UCSD.EDU (Devananda Tandavan) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 19:49:00 -0500 Subject: Tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227017455.23782.1948675803743778066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OM! An even nicer edition of The TIRUMANDIRUM by Siddhar Thirumoolar is vailable: Edited by M. Govindan; the Natarajan Translation, Published by Babaji Kriya Yoga Pubnlications, Inc.; Montreal, Cananda Suite 608-165 de LaGauchetiere Street West; Montreal ,Quebec; Canada H2Z 1X6. It is a well bound paper cover with some additions by Mr. Govindan from the original Indian edition. Shanti! From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Wed Sep 28 15:31:28 1994 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 11:31:28 -0400 Subject: Why He could not get tenure. Message-ID: <161227017454.23782.9110793146784966206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> They say He spoke the Vedas, but they had existed all along. So He was not the author. Transmitters do not get tenure. Additionally, Kautsa was probably right that the Vedas that He spoke were completely meaningless. Fortunately for Him, if He is up there beyond time and space: anyaiH ... paridIyamAnaM SAkAya vA syAt lavaaNAya vA syAt? Madhav Deshpande From pbilmo at deakin.edu.au Wed Sep 28 06:23:46 1994 From: pbilmo at deakin.edu.au (purushottama bilimoria) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 16:23:46 +1000 Subject: Light Relief Message-ID: <161227017452.23782.10511749559372136711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tenure was denied... And it turned out that He did not exist anyway He was a ghost scholar constructed and promoted by a syndicate For without a theory what would the university community do for example with the antinomies of human conduct, such as displayed in the Aryan-Dravadian debate of late! From thrapp at helios.nosc.mil Thu Sep 29 00:09:19 1994 From: thrapp at helios.nosc.mil (thrapp at helios.nosc.mil) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 17:09:19 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227017457.23782.3329332803655202616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a new member of the list and would like to ask some questions regarding the list. Is this list an appropriate place to ask Sanskrit grammar questions? If not, or maybe even if so, are there any members especially in the US that would be interested in answering some grammar questions off-line? I would be interested in what professionals regard as the highest quality font package for Sanskrit. I have tried some publicly available ones such as a Macintosh bitmap font, Itrans, and the Velthuis TeX font. Of these the Velthuis font was the best but lacked characters for Vedic and Upanisad Sanskrit. It seems that a commercial font would probably be the most appropriate. I would greatly appreciate your suggestions. Thank you for any information you can provide. ------------------------------------------------------------- Gary R. Thrapp thrapp at nosc.mil From mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com Thu Sep 29 04:23:35 1994 From: mani at srirangam.esd.sgi.com (Mani Varadarajan) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 21:23:35 -0700 Subject: Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227017463.23782.2239100471710556387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thrapp at helios.nosc.mil writes: > Of these the Velthuis font was the best but lacked characters > for Vedic and Upanisad Sanskrit. What character does it lack for Upanishadic Sanskrit? I can't think of any. Mani From Peter_Scharf at brown.edu Thu Sep 29 05:49:47 1994 From: Peter_Scharf at brown.edu (Peter_Scharf at brown.edu) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 22:49:47 -0700 Subject: Modern Indian History Message-ID: <161227017459.23782.17657937071559885364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The South Asia Faculty Committee at Brown University seeks information regarding specialists in Modern Indian History and International Relations involving South Asia interested in teaching the subject at the Assistant Professor level. The committee may seek further information from respondents. Specialists in this field are requested to please send a current curriculum vitae to arrive before the last week of October to: Professor David Pingree Department of the History of Mathematics Brown University PO Box 1900 Providence, RI 02912 Alternatively, they may e-mail the same to me. Those knowing specialists who may not access this network are requested to pass on this request for information or to e-mail information about qualified specialists an how to contact them to me. Thank you. Sincerely, Peter M. Scharf Peter_Scharf at brown.edu From WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU Thu Sep 29 14:35:19 1994 From: WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU (WITZEL at HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 10:35:19 -0400 Subject: SUMMER SANSKRIT '95 Message-ID: <161227017465.23782.795907863164113567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ref.: Madhav Deshpande's query about an ** Intensive Sanskrit ** Summer Course in 1995. --- I reply on the Indology net, as this may be of interest to others as well. I have been giving such a course at Harvard since 1990, and on trial basis before in 1988, 1989. We had, *without* country-wide propaganda, an average of 10 students, and not only from the North-East but also from California and the Mid West. One problem, I think, is the fairly large fee Harvard charges, by now $2,500 for 7-8 weeks of classes (4- 5 times per week, 2.5 hours per day). This excludes housing and other living expenses. Even in 7-8 weeeks we could generally cover all of the important features of Epic/Classical grammar (depending a bit on the level of each Summer's class and the speed possible) so that students could read the beginning of the Gita or something like Nala on their own. In fact several of them each year have succeeded to get into one Skt./ South Asian graduate program or the other. I will probably not teach this course next Summer (rather work on my own things) but that does not exclude our offering it here. Even two courses, one at Ann Arbor, and one here, would not be impossible. There always are interested students. I have had some inquiries already. In fact, I think we should also have a course on the West Coast. Or we could rotate each year, from West Coast to Mid West to East Coast, in order to serve local students, just as it is being done for some other (SEA) languages. Any suggestions on this point? Please, do contact me so that we can start a country-wide planning group. Michael Witzel, Chair, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phones 617 - 495 3295 (also voice mail), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 email: Witzel at husc3.harvard.edu From Reli-Sec at vuw.ac.nz Thu Sep 29 04:09:44 1994 From: Reli-Sec at vuw.ac.nz (Reli-Sec at vuw.ac.nz) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 16:09:44 +1200 Subject: SANSKRIT Message-ID: <161227017461.23782.14626724674904537607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Dear Gary, I have been using locally available shareware which I must admit did not cost me a lot. The font I am using at the moment is called KANCHI NR. I also have another font on my computer called Devanagari but I have found this one is not so clear. I will be more than happy to send you a copy of these fonts if they are of any use to you. I must point out that this particular software is very easy to install on any Macintosh computer. (Dr) Pushpa Bhardwaj-Wood Lesley Fischer, Secretary, Department of Religious Studies, Victoria University of Wellington, P O Box 600, Wellington, New Zealand. Tel : +64 4 472 1000 Fax : +64 4 495 5065 E-Mail: Reli-Sec at vuw.ac.nz From rum at hotlan.att.com Fri Sep 30 13:52:00 1994 From: rum at hotlan.att.com (rum at hotlan.att.com) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 09:52:00 -0400 Subject: statistical data Message-ID: <161227017468.23782.1652079511844722967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know where I can find the following information: 1. Names of towns and cities in India with their longitudes and latitudes. 2. Demographic data, by state, on: tribes, their names, and number of people in each, castes (subcastes), their names, and number of people in each, languages, their names, and number of people in each. dialects of each language, their names, and number of people in each. other social and cultural characteristics such as: number of different dress styles, cuisines, etc. Thanks for your help. M. V. Ramana munagala.ramana at att.com >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 30 1994 Sep GMT 10:54:10 Date: 30 Sep 1994 10:54:10 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: SRI CAKRA PAMPHLET READY Re: Pamphlet on Sri Cakra-Sri Vidya I'm sorry but the names and addresses of the 3 people besides Doug Brooks who took up my offer of copies of the pamphlet on the proper way of constructing the Sri Cakra: Caturvedi, Candrasekhara Tantrik varg se nirnay ki mang : Sri Vidya mantra ka visuddha svarup? Mathura : Rajesvari Press, n.d. have dropped off my computer files. (I have extended the retention period of all of them) The photocopies are ready. Could anyone wanting a copy please contact me directly (not through INDOLOGY) with their snail addresses? I do have Doug's address. Apologetically Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4744 tel. (202) 707-5600 fax (202) 707-1724 Internet: thrasher at mail.loc.gov Any opinions expressed are mine and not those of the Library of Congress or its management. From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Sep 30 15:27:03 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 10:27:03 -0500 Subject: PhD in Tirumantiram Message-ID: <161227017470.23782.1690935261607972555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> PhD thesis in Tirumantiram ---------------------------- I found a PhD thesis in English done on Tirumantiram of the tamil saiva canon. R. Manickam, Studies in Tirumantiram University of Madras, 1973 This is a reference that can be used in addition to Dr. B. Natarajan's translation (Ramakrishna math edition or Canada edition). N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov Fri Sep 30 15:40:11 1994 From: nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov (nas_ng at lms420.jsc.nasa.gov) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 10:40:11 -0500 Subject: Coimbatore district manual Message-ID: <161227017472.23782.2333186347368568897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coimbatore District Manual -------------------------- I want to borrow the following books through Interlibrary Loan in USA. Does any library possess it? Or else I can pay for the photocopy. Any pointers? Thanks. Frank A. Nicholson, Manual of the Coimbatore district, Government press, Madras, 1887, 2 volumes. N. Ganesan nas_ng at lms461.jsc.nasa.gov From phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz Fri Sep 30 01:54:46 1994 From: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz (phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 13:54:46 +1200 Subject: Bettina Baumer's Address Message-ID: <161227017466.23782.8942729488447560273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I need urgently to contact Bettina Baumer. Can anyone give me her e-mail address, telephone or FAX number? Bo Sax Head of Religious Studies University of Canterbury Private Bag 4800 Christchurch-I New Zealand Tel. (03) 364-2230 FAX (03) 364-2007 e-mail: phil013 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz From magier at columbia.edu Fri Sep 30 21:06:09 1994 From: magier at columbia.edu (David Magier) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 17:06:09 -0400 Subject: statistical data Message-ID: <161227017474.23782.16450403684567704094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 1. Names of towns and cities in India with their longitudes and > latitudes. I too would be very interested in discovering such a database, of the same type as the Geographic Names Server at University of Michigan (which unfortunately only covers North America). Please let me know if you find anything of this sort. > 2. Demographic data, by state, on: > > tribes, their names, and number of people in each, > castes (subcastes), their names, and number of people in each, > languages, their names, and number of people in each. > dialects of each language, their names, and number of people in each. This kind of demographic information, of course, is to be found in the Census of India. Latest figures would be found in the 1991 Census, whose volumes and results are still being issued. > other social and cultural characteristics such as: > number of different dress styles, cuisines, etc. Can't think of any one central source for this sort of varied information... David Magier magier at columbia.edu