From yanom at JPNKSUVX.EARN Tue Jun 1 01:04:06 1993 From: yanom at JPNKSUVX.EARN (yanom at JPNKSUVX.EARN) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 01:04:06 +0000 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015842.23782.3322819904824033341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The topic concerning the 'level of perfection of e-texts' which was just posted by Dominik is quite significant. First of all he pointed out the difference of nature between e-texts and traditionally printed texts. All the e-texts will never attain their real perfection, being, as it were, always on the way to perfection. Thus it is the level of accuracy that counts. In his discussion of the 'level of perfection', however, Dominik seems to have put more weight to quantitative aspect of the 'level' than to qualitative aspect. By mentioning 'seriousness' of erros, he has touched the qualitatie aspect, but this is not enough. We should consider the 'quality' of e-texts more widely. And it is not easy to measure the quality. It is different according to the texts as well as according to the purpose of those who use e-texts. Since I am not good at writing English quickly, Let me give my own example. When I typed the Brihandsamhita --- the text now open for general use is far from being perfect. After I publicized it my students found hundreds of errors. I am preparing a better version ---- my main purpose was to register all the nouns in the text, because the text is encyclopedic and full of information on Indian culture. But I did not care much about verb. Thus my text will not have very high quality to those who are interested in verbal forms. If one wants to know the use of verbs in the same text one must read the text carefullty and put some flugs to all the verbs. The one who has typed an e-text or who takes pains of proof- reading is the best user of the text. One of my students who carefully proof-read the e-text of the Brihatsamhita wrote a MA thesis on the Utpala's glosses on the text. More than 5000 Sanskrit words with glosses have been registered by her as e-text. It really helps when we read the Brihatsamhita with Utpala's commentary. So if the same text are input two times or three times by different scholars with different purposes, it would not be a sheer loss of time. Michio YANO From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Tue Jun 1 10:47:36 1993 From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (Richard P Hayes) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 06:47:36 -0400 Subject: Ole Pind Message-ID: <161227015843.23782.4977810120783897719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone inform me of an e-mail address for Ole Holten Pind of the Paali-Ordbogen (Critical Paali Dictionary) project in Copenhagen? (I have his geophysical address already but not his email address.) Richard Hayes cxev at musica.mcgill.ca Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Tue Jun 1 14:18:17 1993 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 09:18:17 -0500 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015845.23782.7852133872917585177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank Dominik for his argument for electronic text dissemination. It so happens that I am working on a text that could be sent out, but I don't have the technical know-how to do so. Let me explain and perhaps others could offer some advice. The text is the Naagarasarvasva of Padmashrii with commentary. I am working on a "critical" edition of the text from manuscripts and two printed Indian editions, one with commentary, the other is a muula text. The program I am using is Madhav's Chiwriter, with which I have come to work rather easily. When completed, the text will be about 130 pp. in hard copy. As it is a critical edition, I have noted the variants, ignoring common occurrances such as doubling of certain consonants, etc. Random checks of previous work indicates that the margin of error fits into that mentioned by Dominik. The imput of the draft edition is about 4/5ths completed, with completing completion expected by the end of summer. Ideally, I should like to make the draft available to as many specialists as possible, so that their comments could be used in the revision process. The question I have is how can I do it through the network? How can I make the text in Chiwriter available by the current methods? Any and all suggests would be most appreciated. K.G. Zysk From rcohen at sas.upenn.edu Tue Jun 1 14:56:13 1993 From: rcohen at sas.upenn.edu (rcohen at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 10:56:13 -0400 Subject: Sharing Chi-Writer-based texts Message-ID: <161227015847.23782.17189396186048074962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unfortunately, the Chi-Writer program is not network friendly. It uses a very complicated marking-up system, the result of which is that only others using the program can read ftp'd files. One could write a filter, but it would be very difficult and time-consuming. Better and more easily convertible hardware/software combinations are now available for those using ChiWriter. I would suggest switching as soon as it is practicable, to either a MacIntosh-based system using Madhav Deshpande's new fonts, or sticking with the DOS system and moving over to a good text-editor, employing the CSX standard and TeX. Since you have invested much labor in your project, you could create a version of your text in ChiWriter, perhaps using the Kyoto-Harvard transliteration scheme, and save it in ASCII format. It could then be sent around the network and easily converted into whatever transliteration scheme is employed by the recipient. I understand there is a TeX converter for ChiWriter version 4.0. However, you would have to address the special problem posed by your use of Madhav's fonts within ChiWriter. -- Richard J. Cohen, Assistant Director, South Asia Regional Studies University of Pennsylvania, 820 Williams Hall, Univ. of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305, Tel: 215-898-7475; Fax: 215-573-2138 E-mail: rcohen at mail.sas.upenn.edu From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Tue Jun 1 20:11:12 1993 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 15:11:12 -0500 Subject: Sharing Chi-Writer-based texts Message-ID: <161227015850.23782.3791222166309158361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for the information about Chiwrite and its current problems with networking. Short of adopting an entirely new progam for my project, it appears that conversion to Kyoto-Harvard scheme might be the best way to go. Could someone give me more information about the Kyoto-Harvard scheme. How it works in my case and where to obtain a copy of it. Thanks. K.G. Zysk >?From mehta at kc235-2.mgmt.purdue.edu 1 1993 Jun U 15:08:10 Date: 1 Jun 1993 15:08:10 U From: "Mehta, Shailendra" Subject: RE: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts In the context of the electronic inputting of texts, Dominik Wojastyk writes, ___________________________________________ Many of these issues have long ago been worked out in the context of the creation of the Thesaurus Linguae Grecae. In that context, a great deal of money was made available by the Packard foundation and other sponsors, and each Greek text was typed twice by professional input typists. The two copies were then compared with eachother by computer, to give a first elimination of non-duplicate input errors. Then teams of proof-readers worked through the texts, checking and correcting. The resulting text was then added to the TLG CD Rom for distribution. Clearly this is a big, expensive, team effort. In the Sanskrit field, we don't have such central funding and the possibilities that go with it. The efforts to create e-texts are all scattered and individual. _______________________________________________ In this context the following occurred to me. ( Forgive me, I think like an economist because I am one, though with a strong interest in Indology.) The inputting of texts should occur in India, by typists who are familiar with the Devanagari script and with Sanskrit. There should be many such typists in the Hindi and Marathi speaking areas, and they should be willing to work for (my guess) 10 rupees per page. Thus for a few thousand rupees (the equivalent of a maximum of $100 per manuscript of 200 pages) one should be able to get the job done. I am sure there are governmental and private philanthropic groups who would be willing to fund such a project on a coordinated basis to reap economies of scale, and to ensure standardization along the lines of the Thesaurus Linguae Grecae. The important thing is approach them. I know an individual in Delhi, a good friend of mine, who while managing something called the "Rock Art Collection" (!) has been instrumental in creating a microfiche database of some 3 million Sanskrit manuscripts hitherto scattered worldwide. I am sure a similar effort is required to electronically input the texts and to make them available on CD Rom. India is the logical place to do this, in every sense of the term, because of the economics involved, and on account of the proximity to data sources. Further, if a small start is made to begin with, it can be built upon. I promise to look into this myself, when I am next in India. But that will not be for another year. In the meantime this must be just a thought which I would like to share with you. Shailendra Raj Mehta mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Wed Jun 2 16:00:19 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 93 16:00:19 +0000 Subject: Sharing Chi-Writer-based texts Message-ID: <161227015851.23782.3097509421055661557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Tue, 01 Jun 93 20:19:58 BST, ZYSK at EDU.NYU.ACFcluster writes: >Thank you for the information about Chiwrite and its current problems with >networking. Short of adopting an entirely new progam for my project, it >appears that conversion to Kyoto-Harvard scheme might be the best way >to go. Could someone give me more information about the Kyoto-Harvard >scheme. How it works in my case and where to obtain a copy of it. Ken, I have a copy of a paper by Nakatani from the last world Sanskrit conference in which he outlines his input scheme (and a metrical analysis program). Can you deal with a postscript file? Or TeX? Or is it simplest if I just post it? I should add that although his input scheme is fine, it seems to me not especially better than, say, Velthuis's. It is a set of equivalences for easy typing. For example, a = a i = i u = u retroflex vowel r = R retroflex vowel l = L etc. Also, don't overlook the Chiwriter->TeX program. You should evaluate it before doing lots of labour intensive stuff. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 02 1993 Jun GMT 15:04:15 Date: 02 Jun 1993 15:04:15 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: KAVYAMALA ISSUE Does anyone have a complete set of the Kavyamala still bound as it came out as a serial, with each no. containing fragments of a number of works? Library of Congress has one almost complete but with two unbound issues one of which is missing part of the title page. It is dated January, I expect 1900. It contains the following partial works: Yasastilaka, p. 313-28 Brhatkathaslokamanjari, p. 217-40 Ravananarjuniya, p. 97-104 Harisaubhagya, p. 625-64 Kavyanusasana, p. 33-40 Pracinalekhamala, p. 49-52. Could some one tell me which issue this is? Please respond to the network so that if anyone can answer no one else will keep looking. Allen Thrasher thrasher at mail.loc.gov From rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu Thu Jun 3 13:00:14 1993 From: rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu (rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 08:00:14 -0500 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015860.23782.15715287206906787217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Mehta: You have thrown out a tantalizing piece of information... "a good friend of mine, who while managing something called the "Rock Art Collection" (!) has been instrumental in creating a microfiche database of some 3 million Sanskrit manuscripts..." If this isn't the Indira Gandhi Center project, then you must tell us the name of your friend and how we might contact him. Richard Lariviere >?From mehta at kc235-2.mgmt.purdue.edu 3 1993 Jun U 11:31:00 Date: 3 Jun 1993 11:31:00 U From: "Mehta, Shailendra" Subject: RE: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts It is indeed the Indira Gandhi center database. Shailendra. _______________________________________________________________________________ From: indology at liverpool.ac.uk on Thu, Jun 3, 1993 9:25 AM Subject: RE: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts To: Members of the list Mr. Mehta: You have thrown out a tantalizing piece of information... "a good friend of mine, who while managing something called the "Rock Art Collection" (!) has been instrumental in creating a microfiche database of some 3 million Sanskrit manuscripts..." If this isn't the Indira Gandhi Center project, then you must tell us the name of your friend and how we might contact him. Richard Lariviere ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by KC235-2.mgmt.purdue.edu with SMTP;3 Jun 1993 09:24:57 U Received: from liverpool.ac.uk by mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk with Local-SMTP (PP) id <15790-0 at mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk>; Thu, 3 Jun 1993 15:09:21 +0100 Message-Id: <9306031300.AA02429 at emx.cc.utexas.edu> Comment: Indology mailing list Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 15:09:17 BST Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sender: indology at liverpool.ac.uk X-Listserver-Version: 5.5 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas From: rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu (Richard Lariviere) To: Members of the list Subject: RE: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts From ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Thu Jun 3 14:00:12 1993 From: ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (ZYSK at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 09:00:12 -0500 Subject: Sharing Chi-Writer-based texts Message-ID: <161227015857.23782.13415419108598363041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dom, It is perhaps best if you sent me the paper by conventional mail. I shall read it and get back to you. Ken Members of the Net: Please forgive the personal nature of my recent communications. KZ From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jun 3 06:01:19 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 11:01:19 +0500 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015853.23782.4037247780533597157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The subject of Sanskrit e-texts and grammatical analysis once again: Dominik writes: >2/ It require very significant grammatical knowledge on the part > of the typist. > > If the typist and the scholar are identical, as with > Peter Schreiner, then you can have large amounts of text, > already grammatically analysed. But this is not commonly > the case. Usually, I believe, a scholar gets a grant to > pay someone (a student) to type a text. In very big > transcription projects, the typists may not even know the > language they are typing (this was the case with the > Greek TLG project, where Greek texts were typed by > Phillipino typists who just learned the Greek alphabet.) > In that situation, it would slow the project unacceptably > to require grammatical analysis as well as transcription. In my opinion, the world's x-hundred indologists should be able to put together a text corpus consisting of 2,000 word samples without the help of typists ignorant of Sanskrit. Analysing grammatically and tagging a sample of 2,000 words is not an impossible task. 200 indologists delivering one sample each would at the end of their travail have a corpus of 400,000 words available, which is a very good start. > It is still very important to have texts transcribed > verbatim, without the dissolution of sandhi, compounds, > cases and tenses. I hope that in time it will be > possible to semi-automate these tasks. As I mentioned in > my earlier note, Peter already has a substantial list of > analysed lemmata, and this list can be used to analyse > "samhita" texts. In classical/Puranic literature, Peter > has found that up to 60% of words are common to all > texts. So a semi-automatic analysis by reference to a > list (i.e., dictionary-based, as opposed to algorithmic) > should have a very substantial impact on the task. Frankly, I fail to se the advantage of entering texts on a WYSIWYG basis. If we just want to *read* the text, it is available in print. If we want to analyse it linguistically or otherwise, another text format would in my opinion be more advantageous. Automatic compound analysis is no doubt possible, but it may still not be available for a long time. The experience with machine translation shows that one should be cautious. MT has received an enormous amount of funding, but there is still no MT system around that is even close to perfection. Manual analysis is the low-tech solution - it can be done by any reasonably competent Sanskritist, and it is available right away. > > Secondly, at the Leiden world Sanskrit conference, Aad > Verboom demonstrated an algorithmic sandhi analysis > program, and a grammatical analysis program. I don't > know what has happened to this effort since then. But > either it can be completed, or someone can do it again. > Aad's demonstration at Leiden provided a fully > satisfactory proof-of-concept. I wrote to Aad Verbom half a year ago to inquire about his project. I did not receive an answer, but I have heard that it ran into some sort of trouble (correct me if I am wrong). Once again, a couple of words about the "TUSTEP" format: The interesting part is not how you represent the individual characters, but the way you enter the text. Words are written separately, sandhi is marked and compounds are analysed. The fact that you can use this method for entering text without TUSTEP is in my opinion a great advantage. By using TUSTEP, you can produce a correct Sanskrit text by means of the king of filters made by Peter Schreiner. On the other hand, you do not always have to enter texts yourself. By means of scanners and optical character reading programs you can scan Sanskrit texts into the computer. In Tuebingen I was shown the "Optopus" scanning program, which was able to handle transcribed Sanskrit (e.g. reading a cerebral t as .t). The nice thing was that you could teach it how to read the speciol characters used for printing romanized Sanskrit. I was also told that they had taught it how to read devanagari, but that had been a rather troublesome process. With larger texts, the program would scan four times as quicly as you could type. But once again: Let's get together and share each other's texts! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 3 11:28:18 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 11:28:18 +0000 Subject: KAVYAMALA ISSUE Message-ID: <161227015855.23782.3111140750323538042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Wed, 02 Jun 93 20:12:56 BST, ALLEN W THRASHER writes: > Does anyone have a complete set of the Kavyamala still bound as > it came out as a serial, with each no. containing fragments of a > number of works? I seem to recall seeing the complete Kavyamala series in David Pingree's personal library at Brown in 1987. You could ask his assistant Kim Plofker who is email-able at . Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu Thu Jun 3 17:21:36 1993 From: JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu (JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 13:21:36 -0400 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015862.23782.4653145956297621793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the input/typing of texts, I believe that the logic of using typists ignorant of Greek for the TLG project included the idea that they would make LESS mistakes, precisely because they didn't know what they "should" be typing-- they only typed what they saw. Jamie Hubbard, Smith College From robin at utafll.uta.edu Thu Jun 3 19:30:27 1993 From: robin at utafll.uta.edu (robin at utafll.uta.edu) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 14:30:27 -0500 Subject: non-native keypunchers Message-ID: <161227015866.23782.7773710585451982220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm fairly certain that the TLG decision (alluded to) was based not upon supposition, but upon tests. It's particularly relevant in that double-typing method would tend to fail precisely at the point where knowing what "should be there" in the copy text will generate independent identical errors, and the diff won't be the wiser. Otherwise, independent identical mistakes are rare (if they are "random"). You could check w/ Ted Brunner or others at the project: tlg at uic.bitnet PS I have not followed this thread in detail, but am surprised not to have heard any concern about validating the structures of these texts with something like SGML. What will be used for "markup"? The TLG beta code uses its own set of ID markers, but I feel sure (now) that many wish it were something "standard" that could be validated by (eg.) a public domain SGML parser. Best wishes, and congratulations to Dominic and others for taking the initiative. Robin Cover ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Cover Email: robin at utafll.uta.edu ("uta-ef-el-el") 6634 Sarah Drive **In case of link failure, try: Dallas, TX 75236 USA Email: Robin.Cover at sil.org Tel: (1 214) 296-1783 Email: robin at ling.uta.edu FAX: (1 214) 709-2433 Email: zrcc1001 at vm.cis.smu.edu From JBRONKHO at ul9000.unil.ch Thu Jun 3 13:36:56 1993 From: JBRONKHO at ul9000.unil.ch (JBRONKHO at ul9000.unil.ch) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 15:36:56 +0200 Subject: Scorpions in Indian mythology and iconography Message-ID: <161227015859.23782.6537784854691257505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amy Heller, a scholar of Tibetan art and iconography, would like to know what role the scorpion plays in Indian art and mythology, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist. You can send whatever information you may have to me, and I will pass it on to her. Johannes Bronkhorst jbronkho at ulys.unil.ch From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jun 3 14:38:22 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 19:38:22 +0500 Subject: Issues in the creation and dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015864.23782.9860538133639874714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Regarding the input/typing of texts, I believe that the logic of using >typists ignorant of Greek for the TLG project included the idea that they >would make LESS mistakes, precisely because they didn't know what they >"should" be typing-- they only typed what they saw. > >Jamie Hubbard, Smith College Would anyone know if this was verified? Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From jage at seq1.loc.gov Fri Jun 4 20:59:45 1993 From: jage at seq1.loc.gov (jage at seq1.loc.gov) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 16:59:45 -0400 Subject: Indic Sorting Report Sought Message-ID: <161227015867.23782.2727576377869891195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friday, June 3, 1993 Indologists: Does anyone have a copy of know the location of a coppy of: "An Alphabetization procedure for Devanagari Words" by S.P.Mudur. NCSDCT Tech. Report (under preparation) 1978 ? It is cited thus in "Computer Input Outpput in Devanagari" by S.P.Mudur and L.S. Wakankar. Technical Report 19, March 1978 of the National Centre for Software Development and Computing Techniques [the aforementioned NCSDCT} of Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Homi Bhabha Road, Bombay 400 005. "Under preparation" means I'm not absolutely sure it was issued. Other descriptions of requirements for decent Indic script sorting would also be of interest. Thanks in advance, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at seq1.loc.gov [that's one before the dot and L after]) From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Mon Jun 7 10:46:57 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 10:46:57 +0000 Subject: Indic Sorting Report Sought Message-ID: <161227015869.23782.7722213587581060576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: Jim Agenbroad Re: Indic sorting I do not know of the report you mention. But you might be interested to know that I developed a sorting program for Devanagari. It works with source files originally created with Multi-Lingual Scholar and runs on a PC. It is possible that depending on the nature of your source files it might be of use to you. I could send you more details if you are interested. Devanagari sort order is dependent on the language also, as Hindi, Rajasthani, Marathi and Nepali have slightly different sort orders.fsf regards, Peter Friedlander [Forwarded by DW] -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 Original-Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu Mon, 7 Jun 93 08:00:39 CDT PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 8:00:39 CDT From: james nye To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: TrueType fonts for Devanagari Message-Id: Dwight R. Holmes inquired last month about sources for Devanagari TrueType fonts. The Center for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC) in Poona, (established by the Department of Electronics, Government of India) has a strikingly fine set of TrueType fonts for all the Indian languages. (This is the same group responsible for the GIST card, a board for creating a multilingual machine from several different types of computers.) Many of the scripts are available in multiple type faces. For instance, as of April there were 9 faces each for Devanagari and Gujarati, 6 for Tamil, and 2 for Oriya. Other scripts include: Thai, Sinhala, Cyrillic, Persian, and Tibetan. Characters are encoded using the Government of India standard, ISCII. A staff member from C-DAC, stationed in Madras to work on Tamil, gave me a demonstration in April. I also spoke with Mr. Rajaram Bhat of Quark Computers, one of the retail firms authorized to sell the fonts. The pricing for Indian scripts is arranged according to levels. Level one, for all the available fonts in any single script, is Rs. 12,000. Level two, for any two languages, is Rs. 24,000. Level three, for all Indian scripts, is Rs. 38,000. All of the non- Indian scripts are offered as a separate package for Rs. 30,000. In each case, the price includes all additional fonts or improvements developed during the year after purchase. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James Nye jnye at midway.uchicago.edu 312-702-8430 From K493750 at CZHRZU1A.EARN Mon Jun 7 17:20:25 1993 From: K493750 at CZHRZU1A.EARN (peter schreiner) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 17:20:25 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit e-texts Message-ID: <161227015870.23782.9828857207043112562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My name has been mentioned repeatedly in the recent discussion on the dissemination of Sanskrit e-texts so that I feel called upon to make some comments. I support Dominik's initiative whole-heartedly; perhaps an initiative with personal commitment is going to be more successful than the institutionalized attempts to centralize and pool Sanskrit texts; at least I have never received any feedback to the several questionaires which I filled in and sent back. To the problem of the level of perfection which provides Dominik's starting point I would like to add the problem of the competitiveness of academic life; after all one would like to get some kind of acknowledgement for the effort. This is not my personal problem, but it may be among the causes which hinder the free sharing of resources. Another problem area may be the copyright about which I need not bother as long as I am using the electronic copy of a printed book only privately. Concerning the level of perfection, I have no qualms about typing errors (there may be plenty in this letter), but I tend to be embarrassed when it comes to inaccuracies of tagging or mistakes in the analysis (e.g. of compounds). Another aspect of the competitiveness? I am not pleading for lowering the standards but for allowing for more teamwork in getting closer to the ideal. When planning the Tuebingen Puraa.na Project we were advised to follow the strategy assumed also by the TLG. The Brahmapuraa.na was typed twice by two Sanskritists; however, we "cheated" in typing two different printed editions of the text. After automatic collation of the two versions (something which TUSTEP is equipped to do) we had to look at all the differences and decide whether it was a mistake or a variant. Variants had to be proofread conventionally (and I am sure we missed many a typing error in the variants, but we gained considerably for the breadth of our textual basis). I recall (the fact, not the example) of one case in the transliteration of the Vi.s.nupuraa.na where the same mistake was repeated four times in the four versions of one chapter produced by three Sanskritists: It was not a typing error but a combination of words which was entered as compound where a compound was syntactically not possible. "TUSTEP--format" is somewhat of a misnomer, as has been pointed out. The Tuebingen System of Textprocessing Programs (TUSTEP) is the tool used to handle the input. Dominik calls it the "Schreiner format" -- I feel honoured, but perhaps something like the "Tuebingen--Zuerich format" ("TZ"?) would be more appropriate (Renate Soehnen--Thieme has been using it at SOAS, Lars Fosse supports it ...). What is specific to this format seems to be the fact that sandhi--changes are marked and that nominal compounds are dissolved. And since Dominik emphasizes the importance of having verbatim texts without sandhis marked or compounds dissolved I may repeat that this version of any of the texts in TZ--inputformat can be automatically generated (I call it the textformat; also the "pausaformat" of each word, i. e. the form a word would take at the end of a sentence can be generated; cp. the published materials for the BrP). Sandhi markers and compound dissolution do not yet make for a "tagged" texts. I suppose tagging should be and must be problem oriented; there is probably no such thing as a "fully tagged" text as long as anyone can conceive of a new problem or a new method to be applied to a (to the same) text. I hope Dominik's initiative will have tangible results. Peter Schreiner From NKATZ at CFRVM.EARN Thu Jun 10 13:11:26 1993 From: NKATZ at CFRVM.EARN (Nathan Katz, University of South Florida) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 08:11:26 -0500 Subject: Indian musical theory Message-ID: <161227015873.23782.14589837317367254724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One scholar of Indian musical theoryis Professor Guy L. Beck of Lousiana State University, Dept. of Religious Studies, Baton Rouge, LA. He recently published a very fine book with University of South Carolina Press on the subject. >?From THRASHER at MAIL.LOC.GOV 14 1993 Jun GMT 17:27:17 Date: 14 Jun 1993 17:27:17 GMT From: ALLEN W THRASHER Subject: THAI TIPITAKA AVAILABLE The Library of Congress has available an extra copy of this title: 88-916269 Tipitaka. Thai. Phratrapidok Phasa Thai 45 v. In Thai. Would any library like this by exchange and gift with the Library of Congress? Allen Thrasher Southern Asia Section Library of Congress thrasher at mail.loc.gov tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Thu Jun 10 08:32:21 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 13:32:21 +0500 Subject: Indian musical theory Message-ID: <161227015872.23782.4709400850814341991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On behalf of my Sanskrit student Nikolai Saeverud, I am looking for an indologist with knowledge of classical Indian music theory. Mr. Saeverud, who is a musicologist, is going to write a thesis on sound as an aesthetic phenomenon in hinduism. If anybody would like to give him advise and assistance, please write to me, and I'll pass the name and address on. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it Thu Jun 17 20:39:16 1993 From: giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it (carlo della casa) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 22:39:16 +0200 Subject: truetype fonts for romanized sanskrit Message-ID: <161227015875.23782.18289041166444150044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In an effort to rationalize the output of a pool of translators working on an Italian translation of the Ramayana (a long -term project that is finally beginning to get off the ground), we (Andrea Alberti, Umberto Pace and myself) have developed a truetype font for romanized sanskrit available both for Macintosh and Windows 3.1 systems. The font is MS-Word oriented and enables Word-5.0's file format converters to retain special characters while switching from Mac to dos (Winword-2) and viceversa. We will be very glad to pass it on to whoever wants to fiddle with it provided that she/ he give adequate instructions on how to send it through the system unscathed. (Quite possibly, mailing a diskette or two might prove more efficient, less time- consuming and cheaper.) The font is ultimately based on "Times" and is not a commercial product; the Mac intosh version includes a set of bit-mapped characters for screen use. And, of course, we are interested Dominik Wujastyk's remark on the Ramayana having alread y been punched-in twice - having the text on our machines could save us a lot of work, if anyone is willing to let us have a copy (we are working on the Baroda critical edition)... All the best from Italy. Alex Passi Dipartimento di Linguistica Universita' di Pisa E-mail giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it From ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu Fri Jun 18 21:13:21 1993 From: ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu (Thomas B. Ridgeway) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 14:13:21 -0700 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015885.23782.12618734205867759969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Humanities and Arts Computing Center of the University of Washington is making available for anonymous ftp a series of fonts in metafont source code format. Such fonts are most easily used with the TeX typesetting language. Ordinarily you will need the assistance of someone experienced with metafont to produce these fonts, or you will need to acquire the necessary expertise yourself. Humanities and Arts Computing cannot provide assistance to parties outside the University of Washington. The fonts now available are for: Old English Indic languages in Roman transliteration Puget Salish (Lushootseed) and other American Indian languages They may be found in the directory pub/metafont on the ftp server blackbox.hacc.washington.edu [128.95.200.1]. You may perform a quick evaluation of the 10 point roman members of these families by taking the file fontsamp.ps and printing it on a (preferably 300 dpi) postscript printer. Alternately, in the directory pub/metafont/binary are tfm and pk files which may be used for some other 300 dpi device, such as an HP LaserJet. These are in the families wngb* Washington Gerald Barnett (old English) wnri* Washington Romanized Indic wnps* Washington Puget Salish The wngb and wnri families have previously been available privately on a test basis. The wnps family was privately circulated under the names wnpfa* and wnpfb* (Washington phonetic font a and b). All prior versions are obsolete and no longer being modified/developed/ corrected. For one or two more details, ftp the README in the indicated directory. cheers, Tom From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Jun 18 12:15:58 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 17:15:58 +0500 Subject: shvetashvatara-upanishad Message-ID: <161227015877.23782.1858011541982420905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On behalf of one of my students, who is writing a thesis on the Shvetasvatara- upanishad, I would like to ask if anyone knows about articles written about this upanishad during the last five years. Any hint would be welcome! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Fri Jun 18 18:40:33 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 18:40:33 +0000 Subject: Attn: Listowners Message-ID: <161227015878.23782.561113921586946957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bernard Comrie and I are maintaining a list of lists specifically oriented toward various languages. I will be forwarding this to the LINGUIST list (linguist at tamvm1) and will forward it to your list as well for the interest of your readers. If you do not want me to post this to your list, please tell me by 23 June. If you are not a listowner and would like to receive a copy of the list (in case it's not posted to your list), please subscribe to Linguist. Thanks, Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Fri Jun 18 19:00:20 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 19:00:20 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit and Unicode character encoding Message-ID: <161227015880.23782.7728753318463997170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm reviewing the proposed Unicode 16-bit character encodings for Tibetan and Sinhalese; both the proposals depart from the standard ISCII layout which Devanagari, Bangali, Gurmukhi, Gujarati, Oriya, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, and Burmese follow (with some reservations re: Tamil). Given the body of Sanskrit literature written in the Tibetan script and Pali literature written in the Sinhalese script, it seems to me that encoding parallel to ISCII is important for both Tibetan and Sinhalese scripts. Does anyone agree with this opinion? Parallel encoding can simplify the transfer of a text from script to script because the positions of the characters are the same even though the actual code addresses are not. By keeping Tibetan and Sinhalese out of the fold, script transfer could be made more troublesome. Has anyone out there expertise on this question? I know, for instance, that Tibetan TSEG may cause troubles. Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Fri Jun 18 20:18:02 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 20:18:02 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit etexts Message-ID: <161227015883.23782.5701093758257271743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Jun 93 20:02:03 BST Lars Martin Fosse said, in Norwegian, > >Michael, er det noen hos dere som har dataregistrerte sanskrit-tekster de >kunne tenke seg } dele med andre? Selv skriver jeg inn fablene fra de to >f|rste b|kene av Panchatantra, og kunne godt tenke meg } "bytte" tekster >med andre. Which I don't think he meant to send to the Indology list but: He wants to know if anyone has encoded Sanskrit texts which could be exchanged. He himself has prepared the fables from the first boosk of the Pan%catantra. I only subscribed to this list today! :-) and I am busy reading the archives. I note that in the archives there are copies of the Buddhacarita and several other things (which names I can't read while I'm in this mailer). I myself have some S/ankara and Patan%jali around somewhere. Are the texts in the Indology archive text-only or something else? I'd like to know if I can read them on the Mac. Mon det er et svar til Din sp|rgsm}l, Lars? Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Fri Jun 18 15:53:04 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 20:53:04 +0500 Subject: Sanskrit etexts Message-ID: <161227015881.23782.8753292611231907656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael, er det noen hos dere som har dataregistrerte sanskrit-tekster de kunne tenke seg } dele med andre? Selv skriver jeg inn fablene fra de to f|rste b|kene av Panchatantra, og kunne godt tenke meg } "bytte" tekster med andre. Hei igjen, Lars Martin Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 19 14:12:40 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 14:12:40 +0000 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015886.23782.9701509509088115422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 18 Jun 93 22:30:57 BST, Thomas "B." Ridgeway writes: > The Humanities and Arts Computing Center of the University of Washington > is making available for anonymous ftp a series of fonts in metafont > source code format. Tom, this is a singular service to the scholarly community at large. On behalf of myself and all INDOLOGISTs, I should like to thank you and the staff of your Center for this generous donation of many man-hours of work for the general weal. Many INDOLOGISTS who do not use TeX may decide that now is the time to have a look at the system. With your wnri fonts, the scholar may now keep Indic language texts in the CSX coding, and typeset them directly with TeX, either for printing on proof devices such as matrix or laser printers, or at full publishing quality on phototypesetters. TeX is completely portable (DOS, OS/2, Macintosh, Atari, Amiga, Unix, etc.), prints on almost all known printing devices, and is free for downloading from ftp.tex.ac.uk and other archives. Now we have CSX outline fonts for using TeX seamlessly with Indian language material. (There are also Devanagari, Tamil, Malayalam, and Telugu fonts for TeX, all free). The new wnri fonts may also be converted to Hewlett Packard soft fonts, if TeX isn't your thing. Again, Tom, a big thank you. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 19 14:13:02 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 14:13:02 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit etexts Message-ID: <161227015888.23782.6981050529418923075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 18 Jun 93 20:33:59 BST, Michael Everson writes: > I only subscribed to this list today! :-) and I am busy reading the > archives. I note that in the archives there are copies of the > Buddhacarita and several other things (which names I can't read > while I'm in this mailer). I myself have some S/ankara and > Patan%jali around somewhere. Are the texts in the Indology archive > text-only or something else? I'd like to know if I can read them > on the Mac. Dear Michael, Welcome to the list. The texts on the INDOLOGY server at Liverpool.ac.uk are indeed plain text, with plain text markup in some cases. There is a standard roman character set for transliterated Sanskrit and allied languages called the Computer Sanskrit eXtended (CSX) coding. This is an 8-bit code: ASCII plus accented Indic characters and a base set for of accents for French, German, etc. It was agreed at the Vienna meeting of the International Assoc. of Sanskr. Studies (IASS) and details and examples are in the file iass.zip. Madhav Deshpande has created a PS font in CSX coding which works well on the Mac. It costs money. The liverpool files are also available for ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk:pub/users/ucagdkw/indology. Tom Ridgeway has taken copies of each of these files as they became available, and converted them from their creators' coding to CSX. These versions are stored on blackbox.hacc.washington.edu. I would gladly take copies of your Sankara and Patanjali transcriptions, and make them available through the same channels. Shall I send you a disk? Can you ftp stuff to me? (Or me from you?) Best wishes, and welcome again, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 19 20:01:16 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 20:01:16 +0000 Subject: Chiwriter to TeX Message-ID: <161227015889.23782.6428142361655056414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ken, I noticed that the Chiwriter to TeX program is freely available on the net. Try the site ftp.tex.ac.uk, in directory pub/tex-archive/support, I think. The site ftp.tex.ac.uk supports Gopher, and that gives you easy access and searching. I had a brief look at one of the docs for the program, and it looked as though it was highly configurable, and could deal with fonts intelligently. You may be in luck. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Sun Jun 20 00:58:23 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 00:58:23 +0000 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015891.23782.3409070114506422185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is it possible to convert TeX format fonts to Postscript? Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it Sun Jun 20 13:38:40 1993 From: giuseppe at imiucca.csi.unimi.it (carlo della casa) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 15:38:40 +0200 Subject: true type for sanskrit reply Message-ID: <161227015893.23782.1064611790586440966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> for Lars Martin Fosse and David Nelson Will send the fonts through the mail as soon as I can. No need to mail diskettes We do not have any e-texts currently available that I know of - Giacomo Ferrari at Pisa was working on the Veda, but that was years ago... will check that out. Alex Passi Universita' di Pisa, Dipartimento di Linguistica Via Santa Maria 36, Pisa. Fax +39-50-44100 Home address Via XX settembre 22, Milano. From rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu Mon Jun 21 11:45:13 1993 From: rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu (rwl at emx.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 06:45:13 -0500 Subject: Indian musical theory Message-ID: <161227015894.23782.1423434252301666732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars-- I have been away for some time and just found your message. You might have your student contact Prof. Stephen Slawek, Music Dept., MBE 3.210, University of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712, USA. Richard From MERRY.B at UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Jun 21 13:20:00 1993 From: MERRY.B at UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (MERRY.B at UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 08:20:00 -0500 Subject: Attn: Listowners Message-ID: <161227015897.23782.6834919553674473244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In-Reply-To: The letter of Friday, 18 June 1993 12:46pm CT If you'll forward a copy to me, I'll send it on to CONSALD people-- South Asia librarians. THanks. Merry Burlingham lyaa101 at utxvm.cc.utexas.edu From l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no Mon Jun 21 09:09:58 1993 From: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no (l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 14:09:58 +0500 Subject: Indian musical theory Message-ID: <161227015896.23782.14211448417155383349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lars-- > >I have been away for some time and just found your message. You might have >your student contact Prof. Stephen Slawek, Music Dept., MBE 3.210, University >of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712, USA. > >Richard > Thank you! I have already got another address, which I gave to my student, but I'll let him have this one too. Since you asked to keep you informed about the progress of my work, let me use this opportunity to tell you that everything is going according to plan so far. I have begun to write the first couple of chapters of my thesis (which will partly deal with the history of statistics in Sanskrit philology, partly discuss methodological problems). The next year will be crucial, because I shall then have to do my pilot study. If the pilot study breaks down due to practical of theoretical problems, I'm in deep trouble. I not, the future still looks reasonably bright. I plan to participate at the IX. Sanskrit World Congress in Melbourne, perhaps I will see you there! Best regards, Lars Martin P. S.: In case you are interested, I give you the abstract of the paper I would like to present in Melbourne (if they accept it!) IS THERE A FUTURE FOR STATISTICS IN INDOLOGY? Lars Martin Fosse Statistical methods have been used in philological studies since the 1880's . Within the field of modern languages in particular, a great number of studies based on such techniques have been published during the last hundred years. Statistics have been very successful in clarifying authorship problems. Although these techniques can never prove an hypothesis, they give a mathematically defined estimate of how probable (or improbable) a given hypothesis is. Multivariate techniques enable the scholar to evaluate a large number of criteria and to draw conclusions with a high degree of probability even on the basis of relatively small samples, as is shown in O'Donnell's study of The O'Ruddy. Despite the obvious usefulness of statistics in studying and clarifying a number of textual, linguistic or philological problems, the method has never really gained acceptance in indological circles. In the period from 1880 till 1905, a number of studies were published by among others H. Edgren, C. R. Lanman and E. V. Arnold where descriptive statistics were used, the most well known work being Arnold's Vedic metre in its historical development. The next major attempt at using statistics in an indological context was made by Walter Wust, who in 1928 published his Stilgeschichte und Chronologie des Rigveda. He gives no mathematical evaluation of the numbers he has compiled , and the conclusions are not supported by reference to statistical theory. The philological part of the study was criticized by Edgerton, but an informed statistical discussion had to wait until A. S. C. Ross published his article "Philological Probability Problems" in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society in 1950. In the Discussion on the Paper, P. A. P. Moran, B. Babington-Smith and J. Gillis offer solutions to the numerical material provided by Wust based on proper statistical principles. Wust's intuitive conclusions were by and large supported by the statisticians. It is, however, debatable whether Wust actually managed to say something about the relative age of the Rigvedic books, or whether he was merely able to group them according to certain numerical principles. Pavel Poucha's attempt in the 'forties to deduce the relative age of the Rigvedic hymns on a hymn-by-hymn basis has already been rejected by Gonda on philological grounds. It should be added that the numerical principles used by Poucha can at best be described as naive. But his basic perception that the Rigvedic books all contain both old and young material is most probably correct, and since some books probably contain more ancient material than others, this may create a false impression of books having been edited at different times. In the fifties and sixties a small number of works appeared where certain statistical figures were presented. Most notable are the three articles by R. Morton Smith on the stories of Amba, Sakuntala and Nala in the Mahabharata. Significance testing was not applied. It was only with T. R. Trautmann's study of the Arthashastra that more sophisticated methods were introduced. However, the statistical part of Trautmann's work was unfavourably reviewed by Sternbach, who objected to the limited amount of discriminators used by Trautmann. Trautmann's study is certainly not devoid of merit, although a more comprehensive choice of discriminators would have given it greater significance. As it is, Trautmann's work needs confirmation. Since Trautmann, no major statistical studies have been published within the field of Indology apart from M. R. Yardi's work on the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. The general impression conferred by earlier statistical studies within the field of Indology is one of numerical naivity. The techniques used are quite rudimentary, and there has been no proper discussion of what the numbers actually mean. Establishing a set of numbers (with or without significance testing or the use of other techniques) is only part of the job. Interpreting the numbers is a different matter. This calls for a milieu of scholars well versed in statistical theory as well as Indology. It also calls for the establishment of large electronic corpora of Sanskrit texts available to all. Such corpora already exist within other philological fields, e.g. modern languages, biblical studies, ancient Greek etc. They serve as the basis for linguistic, literary and stylistic studies. Furthermore, there is a need for a uniform format for the registration of Sanskrit texts. It is particularly important that compounds be dissolved. A common system of markup (tagging) for grammatical and stylistic features would be a great advantage. This would facilitate the exchange of files enabling scholars with different objectives to profit from the work of others. It would then be possible to conduct large scale statistical studies of Sanskrit texts and to develop statistical techniques adapted to the special requirements of Indology. Lars Martin Fosse Department of East European and Oriental Studies P. O. Box 1030, Blindern N-0315 OSLO Norway Tel: +47 22 85 68 48 Fax: +47 22 85 41 40 E-mail: l.m.fosse at easteur-orient.uio.no From RCJ at automation.university-library.cambridge.ac.uk Mon Jun 21 15:39:00 1993 From: RCJ at automation.university-library.cambridge.ac.uk (RCJ at automation.university-library.cambridge.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 15:39:00 +0000 Subject: Anyone with an interest in current Vedic scholarship... Message-ID: <161227015899.23782.10374584708316873018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked for something well outside my areas of knowledge and it struck me that members of this list would probably have an answer close to hand. What is the best way of compiling a list of current Vedic scholars worldwide? A published list of members of an essential society, a wide- ranging subject review article, a personal list, what is the simplest source of such information? Any and all help would be appreciated... This is unlikely to be of general interest to the list, so replies to me as rcj10 at cus.cam.ac.uk, and if anyone requests I will post a summary to INDOLOGY. Craig Jamieson University of Cambridge CBS%UK.AC.LIVERPOOL::INDOLOGY From joshi at u.washington.edu Tue Jun 22 17:11:52 1993 From: joshi at u.washington.edu (Irene Joshi) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 10:11:52 -0700 Subject: Earthquake depiction in art, myths Message-ID: <161227015902.23782.2575667661180267151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any information on the depiction of earthquake events in Indian or Nepali art? Or the mention of such events in mythology, Hindu or Buddhist? Is there an earthquake deity? From Nanjunda.Somayaji at Corp.Sun.COM Tue Jun 22 18:47:08 1993 From: Nanjunda.Somayaji at Corp.Sun.COM (Nanjunda.Somayaji at Corp.Sun.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:47:08 -0700 Subject: Elementary sanskrit. Message-ID: <161227015908.23782.6773229419043473711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I need the same info. I have studied sanskrit during my school/college days and have some introduction to this language and literature. Please put me in the "CC" list if you have any suggestions for Narain Attili request. Thanks Nanjunda Somayaji (nanjunda.somayaji at sun.com) ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Tue Jun 22 11:35:25 1993 Comment: Indology mailing list Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 18:42:35 BST Originator: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk Sender: indology at liverpool.ac.uk X-Listserver-Version: 5.5 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas From: narain at acs.bu.edu (narain attili) To: Members of the list Subject: Elementary sanskrit. Content-Length: 313 X-Lines: 19 Hello, I would like to learn sanskrit. Could anyone recommend good "starters" books to me..I would further like to have the intermediete level books too..(ie., the stage next to "starters". I do have some sanskrit vocabulary..Telugu being my native tongue.). Thanks, Narain Attili. narain at acs.bu.edu. ----- End Included Message ----- From jhelling at cs.ruu.nl Tue Jun 22 10:51:00 1993 From: jhelling at cs.ruu.nl (Jeroen Hellingman) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:51:00 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit and Unicode character encoding Message-ID: <161227015900.23782.15217720133508050268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Unicode list, Michael Everson writes: > I'm reviewing the proposed Unicode 16-bit character encodings > for Tibetan and Sinhalese; both the proposals depart from the > standard ISCII layout which Devanagari, Bangali, Gurmukhi, > Gujarati, Oriya, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, and Burmese > follow (with some reservations re: Tamil). Given the body of > Sanskrit literature written in the Tibetan script and Pali > literature written in the Sinhalese script, it seems to me > that encoding parallel to ISCII is important for both Tibetan > and Sinhalese scripts. Does anyone agree with this opinion? > Parallel encoding can simplify the transfer of a text from > script to script because the positions of the characters > are the same even though the actual code addresses are not. > By keeping Tibetan and Sinhalese out of the fold, script > transfer could be made more troublesome. > > Has anyone out there expertise on this question? I know, > for instance, that Tibetan TSEG may cause troubles. I am not really an expert, but I think the problems will not be to difficult. Using a table lookup, you can easily find the equivalent Tibetan character for a Devanagari character. I think that the parallell encoding of the various indic scripts is misleading, in that sense that you still need to do table lookup if you want to transliterate one in the other, as in most Indic scripts there are minor differences in encoded characters, for example, in Tamil, both aspirated and voiced versions of consonants are missing, and when trying to display Malayalam in Tamil script, these should be mapped to other characters (which indicates that round trip mapping is not possible). The additional problem with Sinhala is then that it includes some more characters (A, AE, AA, AEAE, and nasalized characters) which cannot be coded in parallel, as they are not known in the Devanagari prototype. The filling nature of TSEG is still under investigation, as far as I know. -- Jeroen Hellingman E-mail: 't Zand 2 Phone: +31-3473-73935 (home) 4133 TB Vianen (18.00--21.00 GMT) The Netherlands Answer in English, German, or Dutch. From narain at acs.bu.edu Tue Jun 22 17:33:31 1993 From: narain at acs.bu.edu (narain at acs.bu.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 13:33:31 -0400 Subject: Elementary sanskrit. Message-ID: <161227015904.23782.5159432571858239293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I would like to learn sanskrit. Could anyone recommend good "starters" books to me..I would further like to have the intermediete level books too..(ie., the stage next to "starters". I do have some sanskrit vocabulary..Telugu being my native tongue.). Thanks, Narain Attili. narain at acs.bu.edu. From madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu Tue Jun 22 18:09:52 1993 From: madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu (madhav.deshpande at um.cc.umich.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 14:09:52 -0400 Subject: ManjushreeCSX font for Romanized Sanskrit on Windows 3.1. Message-ID: <161227015906.23782.7695728226896526449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After prodding from a number of people, I have created a Windows 3.1. compatible TrueType version of my Romanized Sanskrit font: ManjushreeCSX. It is possible to enter the extended characters under Windows with Alt+four numbers. I would like some technical advice from anyone out there about how, if at all, this task of entering extended characters under Windows can be simplified. Personally, I have been so much taken by the ease with which I can use the ManjushreeCSX and the Devanagari Madhushree Fonts on the Mac. Is there a way to create a somewhat similar easy-to-enter procedure under Windows? This is especially crucial for using Devanagari under Windows with a full set of 255 characters. Currently, I have transferred my fonts to the Windows environment. However, I cannot think of any easy way to enter these characters. I would welcome any suggestions, comments! Madhav M. Deshpande University of Michigan From rublee at mv.us.adobe.com Tue Jun 22 21:58:48 1993 From: rublee at mv.us.adobe.com (Craig Rublee) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 14:58:48 -0700 Subject: ManjushreeCSX font for Romanized Sanskrit on Windows 3.1. (fwd)] Message-ID: <161227015910.23782.14114282895278832947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The FontShop in Toronto sells a product called ParaWin for $79 (Canadian) separately or packaged with a Cyrillic font for $121. ParaWin is a keyboard manager tool for windows which allows the user to select which code will be generated for any key or combination of keys. The tool also allows the user to switch from one keyboard to another. Craig Rublee Forwarded message: > From indology-request at liverpool.ac.uk Tue Jun 22 14:19:49 1993 > Message-Id: <23896763 at um.cc.umich.edu> > Comment: Indology mailing list > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 19:19:33 BST > Originator: > Reply-To: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > Sender: indology at liverpool.ac.uk > X-Listserver-Version: 5.5 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas > From: > To: Members of the list > Subject: ManjushreeCSX font for Romanized Sanskrit on Windows 3.1. > > After prodding from a number of people, I have created a Windows > 3.1. compatible TrueType version of my Romanized Sanskrit font: ManjushreeCSX. > It is possible to enter the extended characters under Windows with Alt+four > numbers. I would like some technical advice from anyone out there about how, > if at all, this task of entering extended characters under Windows can be > simplified. Personally, I have been so much taken by the ease with which > I can use the ManjushreeCSX and the Devanagari Madhushree Fonts on the > Mac. Is there a way to create a somewhat similar easy-to-enter procedure > under Windows? This is especially crucial for using Devanagari under Windows > with a full set of 255 characters. Currently, I have transferred my fonts > to the Windows environment. However, I cannot think of any easy way to > enter these characters. I would welcome any suggestions, comments! > Madhav M. Deshpande > University of Michigan > > > From gmc5 at cunixb.cc.columbia.edu Wed Jun 23 05:33:12 1993 From: gmc5 at cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Glen M Cooper) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 01:33:12 -0400 Subject: Elementary sanskrit. Message-ID: <161227015912.23782.6760656959869868162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm no expert in the field, but I did just complete my second year of academic Sanskrit study: we read the Bhagavad Gita and portions of the Kumarasambhava. After 3 semesters. I would recommend as an elementary text Robert Goldman's DEVAVANIPRAVESIKA (sorry, but the diacritics are missing). Then as an intermediate text we used the excellent one by Professor AKLUJKAR, the name of which escapes me (is he on the list, and can he be asked the title of his book?) So, as I mentioned with these two texts we were able, after 3 semesters to spend the fourth reading the above alluded to works, which I'm told is rapid progress for academic Sanskrit. Sincerely, Glen Cooper On Tue, 22 Jun 1993, narain attili wrote: > > Hello, > > I would like to learn sanskrit. Could anyone recommend good "starters" > books to me..I would further like to have the intermediete level books > too..(ie., the stage next to "starters". I do have some sanskrit > vocabulary..Telugu being my native tongue.). > > Thanks, > > Narain Attili. > > narain at acs.bu.edu. > > > > > > From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Wed Jun 23 13:41:17 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 13:41:17 +0000 Subject: List of Language Lists, version 1.1 Message-ID: <161227015914.23782.503399914729551548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Computer Bulletin Boards for Individual Languages Prepared by Bernard Comrie and Michael Everson Version 1.1 (13 May 1993) This file lists bulletin boards devoted primarily to the linguistic study of individual languages and groups of languages (though a couple of others, in particular lists for language learners, have been included as well). It would be great if other correspondents to LINGUIST will be encouraged to maintain corresponding lists for branches of linguistics, particular approaches to linguistics, language teaching, etc. The usual way of subscribing to a list is to send the following message to the listserver (not to the address for enquiries): SUBSCRIBE In the listing below, the name of the list is given in capital letters inside parentheses. When you subscribe, you will receive instructions on how to contribute to the list, and on how to remove your name from the subscription list (usually: SIGNOFF (UNSUBSCRIBE works too)). A list of mailing lists available on Internet is available by anonymous ftp from ftp.nisc.sri.com (192.33.33.32) in the file /netinfo/ interest-groups. A directory of scholarly electronic conferences is maintained by Diane K. Kovacs (dkovacs at kentvm.bitnet or @kentvm.kent.edu) and is available by sending the message get acadlist readme to one of the following addresses: listserv at kentvm.bitnet listserv at kentvm.kent.edu The materials you will receive include instructions for getting more detailed descriptions of particular sets of electronic conferences (e.g. LANGUAGES, LINGUISTICS). Those interested in contacting speakers of languages (not necessarily linguists) should also consider contacting the appropriate soc.culture list (e.g. soc.culture.polish). The order of the lists follows somewhat the Library of Congress Subject headings; no attempt at bibliographical perfection has been attempted. Please send corrections and emendations to this list to: Bernard Comrie (comrie at uscvm) and Michael Everson (everson at irlearn.ucd.ie) ========== Language(s): Sign languages; P117, E98.55, HV2474-HV2476 Sign languages (SLLING-L) Listserver: listserv at yalevm.bitnet listserv at yalevm.cis.yale.edu For questions, contact: Dave.Moskovitz at vuw.ac.nz (Dave Moskovitz) A previous incarnation of this was ASLING-L. 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Listserver: listserv at cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu For questions, contact: lojban-list-request at snark.thyrsus.com Language(s): Tolkien; PR6039 Tolkien, languages in works of J.R.R. (TOLKLANG) (includes Quenya, Qenya, Sindarin, Sindarin, Nandorin, Wood-Elven, Telerin, Eldarissa, Goldogrin, Khuzdul, Adunaid, Rohirric, Wose-speech, Arctic, Black Speech, Westron (Common Speech), as well as Old English, Welsh, Norse, Finnish, etc.) Listserver: tolklang-request at dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk For questions, contact: tolklang at dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk ========== Computer Bulletin Boards for Individual Languages Prepared by Bernard Comrie and Michael Everson Version 1.1 (13 May 1993) ========== Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 24 12:37:23 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 12:37:23 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit and Unicode character encoding Message-ID: <161227015916.23782.555967422136134591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 18 Jun 93 19:16:59 BST, Michael Everson writes: > I'm reviewing the proposed Unicode 16-bit character encodings > for Tibetan and Sinhalese; both the proposals depart from the > standard ISCII layout which Devanagari, Bangali, Gurmukhi, > Gujarati, Oriya, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, and Burmese > follow (with some reservations re: Tamil). ... I think my feelings are similar to Jeroen's. There are so many fiddly differences between transcription codings and character sets that any overlap that may be achievable will almost be more misleading than helpful. Moreover, with the existence of free robust and flexible code conversion tools like translit and patc one can go between codings quite easily. But I am handicapped in making a judgement by the fact that I don't know the degree of success that may be achievable. I mean if 95% of the characters can be made to coincide in the character sets for Hindi/Sanskrit/Pali/Tibetan/Tamil and whatever, then I'm all for it. And if it's a straight choice between making an effort in this direction, and not, then yes, I think it is well worth looking at. There we are. I think I've managed to come down firmly on both sides of the fence. (Ouch!) Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 24 12:37:42 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 12:37:42 +0000 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015918.23782.3917221513937888057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Sun, 20 Jun 93 01:06:31 BST, Michael Everson writes: > Is it possible to convert TeX format fonts to Postscript? I believe it is, yes. See the FAQ of the comp.fonts group, maintained by Norm Walsh, and available from ibis.cs.umass.edu:/pub/norm/comp.fonts. There are tools to translate PK files to PS (i.e., bitmaps at a particular resolution) which are part of a package called SeeTeX, I believe. Also there is a Metafont interpreter which outputs Postscript, not bitmaps, called Metapost, by John Hobby. It's copyrighted but free. The release notice I saw said it could translate MF into type 3 PS fonts. I'm not sure how useful that would be. But mostly people don't try because TeX documents as a whole are easily translated into PostScript, fonts, layout, and all. If what you are after is a screen font for editing, under Windows, say, then there are other fonts available which match the character set of the new WN Indic fonts. There are free VGA and EGA bitmap fonts available on blackbox.hacc.washington.edu itself. There are the PS fonts by Madhav Deshpande (commercial). There is the free TrueType font which was announced recently by Alex Passi. Finally, Tom Ridgeway is (I believe) going to make available something along the lines of an outline font perhaps a Type 1, on blackbox. Presumably this will match the coding of the Metafont fonts. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Thu Jun 24 15:09:03 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 15:09:03 +0000 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015921.23782.4717637545451454743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there a standard encoding for Romanized Indic fonts? Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Thu Jun 24 17:47:34 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 17:47:34 +0000 Subject: Romanized Indic metafont update available by ftp Message-ID: <161227015923.23782.7739574341757996172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Thu, 24 Jun 93 16:00:54 BST, Michael Everson writes: > Is there a standard encoding for Romanized Indic fonts? Yes. It is called CSX, and is an 8-bit extension to ASCII. It was defined by a panel of interested Indologists who gathered for the purpose at the last World Sanskrit Conference in Vienna, organized by the Int. Assoc. of Sansk. Studs. (IASS). A description is available in the file IASS.ZIP, which is available from the INDOLOGY listserv or by ftp from ftp.bcc.ac.uk:/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology. Best wishes, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From rajs at lugano.esd.sgi.com Fri Jun 25 22:45:09 1993 From: rajs at lugano.esd.sgi.com (rajs at lugano.esd.sgi.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: Origin of the word 'Hindu' Message-ID: <161227015927.23782.5497741065394104727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently I came across some discussion on the origin of this word - there appear to be at least two schools of thought - one tracing the origin to the Sindhu river (whose origin itself is also obscure) and the juxtaposition of 's' and 'h' by the people who lived west of the river. The other school of thought traces the etymology of the word to the Sanskrit 'hin' (violence) and 'du' (without)(which, from prior postings to this group, appears a little suspect!). Do we have any scholarly endorsements for either or yet another? And while I'm on the topic, does anybody know the origin of the names 'Hindukush' and 'Hinduraj' for the mountain ranges west of the Karakoram? Thanks, Raj Sehgal From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Fri Jun 25 23:15:48 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 23:15:48 +0000 Subject: IASS.ZIP Message-ID: <161227015925.23782.10519226656325979791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you please explain how I get that file to my Macintosh? A .ZIP file comes to me as gibberish. :-( Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 26 12:43:50 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 93 12:43:50 +0000 Subject: IASS.ZIP Message-ID: <161227015929.23782.12024885982282978651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 25 Jun 93 23:23:55 BST, Michael Everson writes: > Could you please explain how I get that file to my Macintosh? > A .ZIP file comes to me as gibberish. :-( A ZIP file is a compressed archive of one or more constituent files. To get at the contents you need a program called ... UNZIP. Your best bet would be to get this from a friend. At the same time you should get some other programs such as binhex and uudecode which help when you start fetching stuff from the Net. There is a British service called the Higher Education National Software Archive, which you can log on to by telnet at micros.hensa.ac.uk. Read the online help files, and there is a service whereby they will send you a Mac disk full of such utilities for about 5 pounds. However, I can't believe that at UCD there isn't someone within 100 yards of your office who doesn't already have UNZIP etc. Incidentally, the screen fonts inside iass.zip are for the PC screen (EGA and VGA), not Mac. (But the file will still be useful because it contains documentation about the CSX scheme.) For the Mac screen you need a Mac font, and I don't know much about these. I believe Tom Ridgeway is preparing an outline font which will appear in blackbox.hacc.washington.edu:/pub/indic/outlines in due course. Also there are the Pisa TT CSX fonts. Best of luck, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Sat Jun 26 12:44:20 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 93 12:44:20 +0000 Subject: Origin of the word 'Hindu' Message-ID: <161227015932.23782.15158154111855459747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Fri, 25 Jun 93 23:53:15 BST, rajs at com.sgi.esd.lugano (Raj Sehgal) writes: > Recently I came across some discussion on the origin of this word - there appear > to be at least two schools of thought - one tracing the origin to the Sindhu > river (whose origin itself is also obscure) and the juxtaposition of 's' and 'h' > by the people who lived west of the river. The other school of thought traces > the etymology of the word to the Sanskrit 'hin' (violence) and 'du' > (without)(which, from prior postings to this group, appears a little suspect!). > Do we have any scholarly endorsements for either or yet another? "Hindu" is a Persian version of the Sanskrit word Sindhu, the name of the river aka Indus. Cf. Sind. Any decent English dictionary will tell you this. The other etymology is nonsense. There is no root "hin" to harm, nor does "du" mean "without". The root of words like ahi.msaa is "hi.ms". This attempt to etymologize Hindu as "Harmless" is part of a tradition of didactic folk etymologizing that goes back to Vedic times. As the history of "Hindus" from Rigvedic warriors fighting the Dasas under Indra's banner through the medieval fighting aakhaa.das to the Ayodhya mosque episode and the current plans of the RSS and the BJP show, Hindus can be far from "harmless". Anyway, the idea of "harmlessness" and ahi.msaa arose and was probably chiefly fostered amongst Buddhists and Jains. I don't know where the "kush" in Hindu Kush comes from: I'd be interested to know. I've never heard "Hinduraj" as a name of those mountains, but the suffix is just the Sanskrit "raaj", "to rule". Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From NKATZ at CFRVM.EARN Mon Jun 28 13:54:12 1993 From: NKATZ at CFRVM.EARN (Nathan Katz, University of South Florida) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 08:54:12 -0500 Subject: Origin of the word 'Hindu' Message-ID: <161227015934.23782.18286748279255362155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I learned it, "kush" derives from Persian "kashidan", which means "to kill." Thus, the Hindu Kush mountains are "Hindu-killers" because they presented such a formidable obstacle. This, in any case, is the folk etymology au courant in Kabul. --Nathan Katz From CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Mon Jun 28 13:08:13 1993 From: CXEV at MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (Richard P Hayes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 09:08:13 -0400 Subject: Origin of the name `Hindu Kush' Message-ID: <161227015936.23782.4466027878010207092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although unable to confirm this, I wonder whether Hindu Kush may be an adaptation of the ancient name of these mountains, which in classical times were called Caucasus Indicus. Richard Hayes cxev at musica.mcgill.ca Religious Studies McGill University Montreal, Quebec From ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu Mon Jun 28 22:57:42 1993 From: ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu (Thomas B. Ridgeway) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 15:57:42 -0700 Subject: WNRI outline fonts available for ftp Message-ID: <161227015940.23782.10257122323470711092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Outline (Postscript type1 and truetype) versions of Washington Romanized Indic Roman, Italic, and Bold are now available for anonymous ftp from blackbox.hacc.washington.edu in the directory pub/indic/outlines See the README file in that location. These fonts are suitable for use in environments such as Windows 3.1, Macintosh System 7, or wherever Adobe Type Manager is in use. Possibly they might be used with the upcoming MS Word v.6 and WordPerfect v.6, who knows? cheers, Tom -- From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Mon Jun 28 17:29:17 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 17:29:17 +0000 Subject: CSX questions Message-ID: <161227015938.23782.5053434894483531401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After some confusion I managed to download the specifications to the CS and CSX code pages. I don't have a TeX reader so I had to guess a bit about some of the formatting, but it was legible enough. What I want to do is make a Macintosh font I can use to prepare text files in a format which will be acceptable on many formats; so here's my question: since the characters in PC page 437 have different values than on the Mac code page (location of German SHARP S is different, for instance), I'm wondering if a utility like Apple File Exchange doesn't remap PC and Mac text somewhat so that E-ACUTE remains E-ACUTE across the code pages. So when I make a Mac CS/CSX compatible font, do I just follow the layout given here, or do I remap? Is this clear? Is there a Mac implementation already of CS? Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From rcohen at sas.upenn.edu Tue Jun 29 16:59:32 1993 From: rcohen at sas.upenn.edu (rcohen at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 12:59:32 -0400 Subject: CSX questions Message-ID: <161227015944.23782.11420850398364351390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tom Ridgeway warns in his *Readme* file that moving TrueType or PostScript fonts from the PC to the Mac environment is not a trivial matter. I can attest to the problem, as a friend created both type of fonts through *Fontographer* on the Mac, and when I attempted to move them over to the PC, there were many problems associated with character mapping and the manner in which the fonts were drawn on the screen. That aside, Tom Ridgeway has once again rendered a service to Indologists, and we should thank him for it. Well done, Tom! Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > In message Mon, 28 Jun 93 17:44:08 BST, > Michael Everson writes: > > > After some confusion I managed to download the specifications to > > the CS and CSX code pages. I don't have a TeX reader so I had to > > guess a bit about some of the formatting, but it was legible enough. > > What I want to do is make a Macintosh font I can use to prepare > > text files in a format which will be acceptable on many formats; > > so here's my question: since the characters in PC page 437 have > > different values than on the Mac code page (location of German > > SHARP S is different, for instance), I'm wondering if a utility > > like Apple File Exchange doesn't remap PC and Mac text somewhat > > so that E-ACUTE remains E-ACUTE across the code pages. So when > > I make a Mac CS/CSX compatible font, do I just follow the > > layout given here, or do I remap? Is this clear? Is there a > > Mac implementation already of CS? > > Yes, Madhav Deshpande's fonts use CSX coding and are for the Mac. But see > also today's announcement by Tom Ridgeway. Get his outline fonts from > blackbox.hacc.washington.edu:/pub/indic/outlines and try those. They should > work fine on a Mac. > > Dominik > -- > Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 > > > -- Richard J. Cohen, Assistant Director, South Asia Regional Studies University of Pennsylvania, 820 Williams Hall, Univ. of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305, Tel: 215-898-7475; Fax: 215-573-2138 E-mail: rcohen at mail.sas.upenn.edu From D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Tue Jun 29 15:46:50 1993 From: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 15:46:50 +0000 Subject: CSX questions Message-ID: <161227015942.23782.10468751726230979772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In message Mon, 28 Jun 93 17:44:08 BST, Michael Everson writes: > After some confusion I managed to download the specifications to > the CS and CSX code pages. I don't have a TeX reader so I had to > guess a bit about some of the formatting, but it was legible enough. > What I want to do is make a Macintosh font I can use to prepare > text files in a format which will be acceptable on many formats; > so here's my question: since the characters in PC page 437 have > different values than on the Mac code page (location of German > SHARP S is different, for instance), I'm wondering if a utility > like Apple File Exchange doesn't remap PC and Mac text somewhat > so that E-ACUTE remains E-ACUTE across the code pages. So when > I make a Mac CS/CSX compatible font, do I just follow the > layout given here, or do I remap? Is this clear? Is there a > Mac implementation already of CS? Yes, Madhav Deshpande's fonts use CSX coding and are for the Mac. But see also today's announcement by Tom Ridgeway. Get his outline fonts from blackbox.hacc.washington.edu:/pub/indic/outlines and try those. They should work fine on a Mac. Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Phone (and voice messages): +44 71 611 8467 From ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu Tue Jun 29 23:29:15 1993 From: ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu (Thomas B. Ridgeway) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 16:29:15 -0700 Subject: update to outline fonts inventory on blackbox Message-ID: <161227015950.23782.15848577503092021403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have today added to the pub/indic/outlines directory on blackbox.hacc.washington.edu two additional fonts: a) a prototype Velthuis Nagari b) a Greek font (yes! it is an indological language) based on Levy's metafont greek. As noted in the file UPDATES, the Nagari font is not actually usable at this point; there are some severe problems involved in encoding and possibly division of the font into 2 parts which I do not now, and may never, have the time to deal with. I am making it available so that anyone with the requisite degree of interest may attempt a solution without having to start from zero. cheers, Tom NB: these files may be copied via (and only via) anonymous ftp: if you do not know how to do 'anonymous ftp' please contact a computer-support person at your institution for information. -- From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Tue Jun 29 18:00:04 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 18:00:04 +0000 Subject: WNRI outline fonts available for ftp Message-ID: <161227015946.23782.1371516588656614007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thomas' Washington Romanized Indic fonts are _not_ Macintosh ready! I received the file WNRIR.TTF today and it is only a text file. It is possible to _translate_ this to a Mac TrueType format by changing the filetype to BINA and the creator type to mdos and then opening the font in Fontographer and saving it as a Mac TrueType font. Obviously not everyone has Fontographer so I'll be happy to convert them into a readable format and then send them to blackbox.hacc.washington.edu or directly to Thomas so he can put them there. I would suggest creating a folder just for Mac versions and another for the PC versions already there. I have some misgivings still about the suitability of one-to-one mapping of CSX PC encoding to the Macintosh format. This is because utilities which routinely transfer text from one format to the other (say from WordPerfect DOS to MacWrite) automatically perform character substitution between the two character sets--so as far as I can see the Mac CSX layout will have to be different. Would anyone like to help me test this? It should be simple. I'll upload a very short text, say a few pieces of the Cha/ndogyopanis*ad in 7-bit format. Someone who uses a PC and Thomas' new fonts (or any canonical PC CSX font) will reset the text into a WordPerfect document, .ZIP it up and send it to me. I can unzip it and try to transfer it to my Mac. Then we'll see if it works. Anyone game? Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE Tue Jun 29 18:15:46 1993 From: EVERSON at IRLEARN.UCD.IE (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 18:15:46 +0000 Subject: CSX questions Message-ID: <161227015948.23782.2479096224978406768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 29 Jun 93 18:08:35 BST Richard J. Cohen said: >Tom Ridgeway warns in his *Readme* file that moving TrueType or PostScript >fonts from the PC to the Mac environment is not a trivial matter. I can >attest to the problem, as a friend created both type of fonts through >*Fontographer* on the Mac, and when I attempted to move them over to the >PC, there were many problems associated with character mapping and the >manner in which the fonts were drawn on the screen. I guess this is a vote that yes I should go ahead and try to sort the MacCSX PCCSX out. >That aside, Tom Ridgeway has once again rendered a service to Indologists, >and we should thank him for it. Well done, Tom! I certainly agree with this! Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 From ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu Wed Jun 30 06:07:44 1993 From: ridgeway at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu (Thomas B. Ridgeway) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 23:07:44 -0700 Subject: outline fonts and encodings Message-ID: <161227015952.23782.9136627094105728660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik writes: > I have tested wnrir___.* under OS/2, which has ATM built into it. However > there is a small problem. The fonts have the "/Encoding StandardEncoding > def" line in them. OS/2 takes this quite seriously, and does a whole lot of > remapping, trying to build the currently loaded codepage. After all this > helpful fiddling about by OS/2, the displayed charset is not CSX at all. righto; virtually any environment ( ? except X-windows ?) which will support these outlines is going to be hostile to a pure CSX encoding (which explains why they are starting out as an expanded-CSX/ANSI hybrid. > > The issues involved and the differences between Windows's and OS/2's > handling of font encodings is well described in Birnbaum's new section on > OS/2 fonts in Norm Walsh's FAQ for comp.fonts > (ibis.cs.umass.edu:/pub/norm/comp.fonts, part 4). > > Apparently the key is to tell the font that its encoding is not > "StandardEncoding" but "FontSpecific". If Fontographer is being used, then > the trick is apparently to set the font to have a "Symbol" character set. > Then OS/2 will leave it alone, and the characters will be displayed in > their proper places. and, unfortunately, saying symbol (or OEM) torches the font for windows- truetype. I suspect that until unicode (a 'real' character set---except it doesn't support CSX) arrives in force, anyone with odd character tastes is going to need to keep font manipulation utilities at hand because there will be no across the board solutions. cheers, Tom -- From aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Jun 30 20:38:50 1993 From: aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca (aklujkar at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 13:38:50 -0700 Subject: Etymology of Hindu and Hindu nature Message-ID: <161227015954.23782.15251627188032267053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As Dominik Wujastyk points out, the etymology of Hindu from hin etc. is a folk etymology (and I would add, not a folk etymology going back to Vedic times but one stemming from quite a recent period of Indian history), not different in scientific value, or absence thereof, from the etymology of arhan/arhant etc. from ari + han etc. One need not doubt either that the particular etymology was manufactured when propaganda was felt to be the need. Equally widely it should be recognized that the etymology of Hindukush as 'Hindu-killer(s)' is most probably a folk etymology produced in the days of aggressive Islam. What I find unacceptable and unfortunate is the following part of Dominik's communication of 26 Jun 93: "As the history of "Hindus" from Rigvedic warriors fighting the D[a]asas under Indra's banner through the medieval fighting aakhaa.da[a]s to the Ayodhya mosque episode and the current plans of the RSS and the BJP show, Hindus can be far from "harmless". Anyway, the idea of "harmlessness" and ahi.msaa arose and was probably chiefly fostered amongst Buddhists and Jains. ... First of all, how a people actually behave or have behaved (assuming, for a moment, that Dominik is correct in his details and right in being so trustful of the reconstructions given by historians and political scientists) is not relevant at all in the context of the present discussion. What matters in the context of even the psuedo-etymology is only how a certain section of the Hindus that coined the etymology has perceived itself. (I feel compelled to make this point because sometime last year Dominik had, over this network, reproduced in its entirety a newspaper article on Hindu fundamentalism. I think it is unfair to single out Hinduism in this way for negative publicity, especially by recourse to an article written by a non-specialist and without first creating the context of scholarly discussion of fundamentalism etc. as a phenomenon (I may add, taking place, periodically, in all religions). I would certainly be unhappy if this becomes a common occurrence on the Indology network with respect to any religion.) Secondly, the obvious truth is that all religious groups have been guilty of hi.msaa. Dominik s remark can easily be (mis?)construed as suggesting that somehow Hindus have a long or especially unquestionable history of hi.msaa and thus less of a right to associate themselves with absence of hi.msaa. This suggestion is not justified. In fact, as practically any objective specialist of Hinduism will attest,we cannot even be sure if we should use the term Hindu in speaking of the earlier periods. Also, the possible suggestion in Dominik's remark runs counter to what is suggested by a massive body of specialized scholarly writing on Hinduism, whetherthis writing is done in the context of fundamentalism or outside of it -- that Hinduism is still a relatively tolerant, non-violent, and, largely or essentially a secular religion. (This last (apparently) contradictory phrase is not mine. As far as I know, it comes from no less an authority than Louis Renou). Thirdly, while it is true that there is greater or more explicit emphasis on ahi.msaa in Jainism and Buddhism, the notion that ahi.msaa was a concept invented by those two religions is a product of earlier simplistic historical reconstructions made by Indologists. Such reconstructions were inevitable in their periods (given the limited extent of texts, linguistic expertise, and first-hand of knowledge of how Indian religions are actually lived or practised). However, a time has certainly arrived to modify them or give them up. From JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu Wed Jun 30 20:48:38 1993 From: JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu (JHUBBARD at smith.smith.edu) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 16:48:38 -0400 Subject: outline fonts and encodings Message-ID: <161227015957.23782.16444736268084167296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> Apparently the key is to tell the font that its encoding is not >> "StandardEncoding" but "FontSpecific". If Fontographer is being used, then >> the trick is apparently to set the font to have a "Symbol" character set. >> Then OS/2 will leave it alone, and the characters will be displayed in >> their proper places. > and, unfortunately, saying symbol (or OEM) torches the font for windows- > truetype. I suspect that until unicode (a 'real' character set---except it > doesn't support CSX) arrives in force, anyone with odd character tastes > is going to need to keep font manipulation utilities at hand because there > will be no across the board solutions. > Can you please explain why setting the font as symbol or OEM would "torch it" for Windows? I have gone bonkers trying to get my good 'ole HP bitmap fonts to work with Windows, precisely because of the re-mapping to ANSI that takes place (I see the correct character on screen but it PRINTS a character mapped from the ANSI set. Tho I have pretty much put the project aside, I had figured that if I set the font as OEM it would no longer perform the helpful!!@#$#$ re-mapping. By the by, I have also had the same experience trying to take PC Word Perfect documents to Word Perfect on the Mac-- those damn friendly machines re-map for you. I can imagine that for some folks it actually works (given that a French accent, say, is in a different upper ASCII slot in the PC Roman 8 character set than whatever the Mac uses), but it drove me nuts. Again, I simply gave up. Perhaps if somebody understands the mapping a table could be devised to translate the translated text! Jamie Hubbard, Smith College