From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Fri Nov 23 09:47:58 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 90 09:47:58 +0000 Subject: Welcome to the new INDOLOGY list. Message-ID: <161227014894.23782.11849099599278475385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is -- I believe -- the first message of human origin to be posted to the new INDOLOGY discussion list. (You will have received a standard, introductory message, explaining some of the technical workings of this system; it is very straightforward in normal use.) So may I welcome you warmly to this new forum, and encourage you to contribute your thoughts, queries, answers, observations, and announcements relating to Indology. A very useful theme might be for members to issue notices of texts that they have in machine readable form. In order to make it easy to find such notices amongst the other INDOLOGY messages, as they begin to accumulate, may I suggest that we use a standard phrase such as "Machine readable text: ..." in the "Subject:" field of such messages? Best wishes, Dominik From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Fri Nov 23 10:03:59 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 90 10:03:59 +0000 Subject: Job opening (Ashmolean Museum) Message-ID: <161227014899.23782.4981287198912627247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yesterday's Independent newspaper carried an advertisement for the following position: Keeper of Eastern Art. Salary 27880-30294 pounds, subject to revision. The keeper should be a scholar in a field related to the collection (China, Japan, Korea, SE Asia, Indian subcontinent and Muslim Middle East) and should have had administrative experience. Further particulars from the Director, Ashmolean Museum, Oxford OX1 2PH, England to whom applications with CV and the names of two referees should be sent by the 7th January, 1991. The post will be taken up on or shortly after 1st Oct 1991. From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Sat Nov 24 00:08:55 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 90 00:08:55 +0000 Subject: Word processing in Indian languages Message-ID: <161227014901.23782.4068228210732473882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I know that several members of this list have developed word processing facilities for Indian languages, or fonts for use with systems which allow customized character sets. It would be very valuable if you could outline for the rest of us what you have done in this area, and what you consider the strengths and weaknesses of your system to be. Dominik From IJL at UK.AC.OXFORD.VAX Tue Nov 27 22:18:00 1990 From: IJL at UK.AC.OXFORD.VAX (IJL at UK.AC.OXFORD.VAX) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 22:18:00 +0000 Subject: Visiting London? Message-ID: <161227014903.23782.15423572000261249887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just in case you might be planning a trip to London in the near future, may I give you my address and phone number at the School of Oriental and African Studies at London University? Department of Indology, SOAS, Univ of London, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG Phone (mine): 071-323-6296 It's always good to meet colleagues. Julia Leslie Lecturer in Hindu Studies From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Wed Nov 28 14:48:36 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 14:48:36 +0000 Subject: forwarded message: seeking Mahabharata e-text. Message-ID: <161227014905.23782.5415640691229578776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am taking the liberty of forwarding this message from Randall Smith, that appeared on the HUMANIST discussion group yesterday. Please send any replies to Mr Smith directly, but send a copy here to INDOLOGY too, please, since I'm sure we would all be interested. Best wishes, Dominik ------- Forwarded Message Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 0768. Tuesday, 27 Nov 1990. Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 11:50:20 PST From: 6500rms at UCSBUXA.BITNET Subject: E-text of the Mahabharata On behalf of one of our professor who is not yet connected to an E-mail system I am looking for a machine readable text of the Mahabharata. The text could be in the original (transliterated) Sanskrit or translated into English or another language. I would appreciate any information or ideas on where to look. Please reply to me directly and I will post a summary on Humanist. Thanks. Randall Smith Classics Department University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106 Tel: 805-893-3556 Email: 6500rms at ucsbuxa.bitnet ------- End of Forwarded Message From ITMS400 at EARN.INDYCMS Wed Nov 28 20:50:25 1990 From: ITMS400 at EARN.INDYCMS (Manjit Trehan) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: HINDI Word Processor Message-ID: <161227014907.23782.9559987905617479623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Subject field says it all; I would like to find out if anyone is aware of a HINDI word processor, public domain, shareware, or purchase-ware, respectively. Thank you. mst. From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Wed Nov 28 21:32:36 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 21:32:36 +0000 Subject: OED 2 errors Message-ID: <161227014910.23782.9915872077588907005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know why, but about once every couple of months I write to a dictionary about a word they have wrong. This time it is the OED, second edition, and since it has been mentioned here recently, I thought I'd share my observation. The spine of volume V of the OED has a Sanskrit word on it: "dvandva", the first entry in that volume. It caught my eye, so I looked it up. I was surprised to see it there in the first place, because it is *definitely* a Sanskrit word, never used in English as an English word (unlike, say, "yoga" or "guru"). But maybe I have missed some arcane point of lexicographical principle here. There are two errors in this entry. First, the Sanskrit word is "dvandva" not "dvandva" . i.e., the "n" is a normal one, not a retroflex one: no underdot. I thought it might be a bit of fly dirt on my copy, but it's not. Secondly, the relationship between the member words of a dvandva compound is certainly not the copula; it is the sense of "and". The mistake probably comes from believing the pericope from Monier Williams; the following one by someone else (I'm doing this from memory, or rather the lack of) which mentions the example "Prince-Regent" is better, but still misleading. It could be read as "The Regent who is also a Prince", whereas a true "dvandva" meaning would be "Prince and Regent", or even "the Prince and the Regent". In Sanskrit, dvandvas are often used just to string things together "catsdogssheepdonkeysgoats", meaning just "cats and dogs and ...". I have noticed other cases where the OUP dictionaries follow Monier Williams uncritically. Probably because they publish his Sanskrit-English dictionary. But he is wrong about a lot of things, and you really need to know the language to use his dictionary safely. Dominik From CXEV at CA.MCGILL.MUSICA Thu Nov 29 12:24:25 1990 From: CXEV at CA.MCGILL.MUSICA (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 07:24:25 -0500 Subject: Copulating dvandva compounds Message-ID: <161227014914.23782.13254829287053843135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent communication, Dominik Wujastyk objected to the characterization of dvandva compounds as copulative compounds, on the grounds that `the relationship between the member words of a dvandva compound is certainly not the copula; it is the sense of "and".' It may be worth pointing out, before our esteemed colleague goes public with his denunciation of OED, that the term "copulative" simply means "joining together" and is used by English grammarians to refer not only to linking verbs that join subject and predicate but also to some conjunctions. Thus the Canadian edition of Funk and Wagnalls says sub verbo "copulative": 2.b Connecting words or clauses in a coordinate relationship: "and" is a copulative conjunction. From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Thu Nov 29 10:42:30 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 10:42:30 +0000 Subject: e-text project survey Message-ID: <161227014912.23782.9044379567355898630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This message is forwarded to INDOLOGY from the HUMANIST group. Apologies to those who are members of both. I thought this survey might be of interest to Indologists. I haven't looked at it myself, but I would assume that it mentioned, for example, the Pali Tripitaka project(s), and perhaps the Austin/Delhi Ramayana/Mahabharata project. Dominik ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 23:22:09 EST Reply-To: Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear Sender: HUMANIST Discussion From: Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear Subject: 4.0776 New List of Electronic Text Projects (1/47) To: Multiple recipients of list HUMANIST Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 0776. Wednesday, 28 Nov 1990. Date: Mon, 12 Nov 90 08:35 EST From: Jim Wilderotter -- Georgetown Center for Text and Subject: Electronic Text Projects Fellow Humanists: For the past eighteen months, the Georgetown Center for Text and Technology has been involved in creating a catalogue of projects involving electronic text at institutions and companies around the world. Present accounting shows that we have on record a total of 312 projects over 27 countries. We will be offering public access to an on-line version of this catalogue sometime before the end of the current year. Presently we are offering the list of project names and addresses included in our catalogue. If you desire more specific information about any project, contact me personally at the address below, and I will be happy to forward this information along to you. James A. Wilderotter II Project Assistant Georgetown Center for Text and Technology Academic Computing Center Reiss Science Building, Room 238 Georgetown University Washington, DC 20057 Tel. (202) 687-6096 BITNET: wilder at guvax Internet: edu%"wilder at guvax.georgetown.edu" [...] -------------------- [A complete version of this list is now available through the fileserver, s.v. PROJECTS ETEXTS. You may obtain a copy by issuing the command -- GET filename filetype HUMANIST -- either interactively or as a batch-job, addressed to ListServ at Brownvm. Thus on a VM/CMS system, you say interactively: TELL LISTSERV AT BROWNVM GET filename filetype HUMANIST; if you are not on a VM/CMS system, send mail to ListServ at Brownvm with the GET command as the first and only line. For more details see the "Guide to Humanist". Problems should be reported to David Sitman, A79 at TAUNIVM, after you have consulted the Guide and tried all appropriate alternatives.] ------- End of Forwarded Message From bkessler at COM.HP.HPL.HPLB Thu Nov 29 20:09:50 1990 From: bkessler at COM.HP.HPL.HPLB (Brett Kessler) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 12:09:50 -0800 Subject: OED 2 errors Message-ID: <161227014923.23782.3169808656195182267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I was surprised to see it there in the first place, because > it is *definitely* a Sanskrit word, never used in English as > an English word (unlike, say, "yoga" or "guru"). But maybe I have > missed some arcane point of lexicographical principle here. Oh, but it's a fine English word, too, at least in my dialect (California Linguistics Student). Morphologists often use terms like dvanda and bahuvrihi to describe types of nominal compounds. In fact, my old Random House dictionary gives, as a definition for "copulative", "of the dvandva type", with "bittersweet" as an example, thus demonstrating both my assertion that dvandva is an English word and Richard Hayes's point about the broader meaning of "copulative". Dominik Wujastyk also misinterprets the dot under the "n". This is not a sign of retroflection, but a sign that the word is of Indian provenance. This is the normative use of diacritics in English, at least according to the American Ice Cream School (Haagen Dazs, Frusen Gladje): diacritics are decorations that show that words are precious and exotic. The Indological community should feel honoured that "dvandva" was felt to merit an underdot. -- Brett Kessler kessler at csli.stanford.edu From bkessler at COM.HP.HPL.HPLB Thu Nov 29 20:23:12 1990 From: bkessler at COM.HP.HPL.HPLB (Brett Kessler) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 12:23:12 -0800 Subject: programs Message-ID: <161227014920.23782.5061014776331254440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This sounds interesting. If the tools don't already exist, I wouldn't mind writing a C programme, given Harry's notes and enough community interest to test it properly. > more important: for some time I dream about a program converting > oriental dates (vikrama; gupta; hejra etc) into dates of our era, taking > fully into account that some Hindu dates are "wrong" and proposing > a range of dates for doubtful data. I am not capable to develop such a > program. But maybe someone of the group wants to try his luck? I have > collected articles and books giving all sorts of formulas for such > conversions, which I could communicate. > Harry > -- Brett Kessler kessler at csli.stanford.edu From FALK at EARN.DFRRUF1 Thu Nov 29 14:48:57 1990 From: FALK at EARN.DFRRUF1 (falk) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 14:48:57 +0000 Subject: programs Message-ID: <161227014916.23782.7263273484708383787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik asked about programs for processing Sanskrit. I got some little helpers (an automatic converter Grassmann to mandala-numbering; a device for changing a skt. text into its index ((slow but tiny, 1500 k))), but all this is usefull only for those working with NotaBene (with SLS). So, if someone should be interested, simply give me a note. more important: for some time I dream about a program converting oriental dates (vikrama; gupta; hejra etc) into dates of our era, taking fully into account that some Hindu dates are "wrong" and proposing a range of dates for doubtful data. I am not capable to develop such a program. But maybe someone of the group wants to try his luck? I have collected articles and books giving all sorts of formulas for such conversions, which I could communicate. Harry From GILLON at CA.UTORONTO.EPAS.VM Fri Nov 30 03:52:48 1990 From: GILLON at CA.UTORONTO.EPAS.VM (Brendan S. Gillon) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 22:52:48 -0500 Subject: More on Dvandva's Message-ID: <161227014918.23782.11178740889499450610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term "dvandva" appears fairly widely in the linguistic literature on compound formation, and in the sense in which the canonical phrasal paraphrase of the compound is a set of conjoined nouns. See, for example, Laurie Bauer's English Word-Formation (Cambridge University Press, 1983) Chapter 2.12. Curiously, such compounds in English, inasmuch as they have no overt indication of co-ordination, are confined to proper names: e.g., Alsace-Lorraine, Holt-Renfrew, etc. Where common nouns are involved, conjunctions are inserted: e.g., book and magazine rack, a join or meet lattice, etc. From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Fri Nov 30 13:40:37 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 13:40:37 +0000 Subject: dvandva definition in OED II. Message-ID: <161227014925.23782.18436926119599003881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I wrote a long note on this yesterday, and then crashed through several Unix shells and ended up with an unretrievable "detatched process". Very annoying, and my own fault.] Briefly, I see now, of course, that "dvandva" has to be in the OED. Fine. I also see that the dot under the "n" was pras'astavacana. :-) And my point about the sense of the copula stands, I think. What the OED says (I now have a copy of the page) is this: dvandva ... A compound word in which the elements are related to each other as if joined by a copula. It then goes on to give an example from MW, "... nouns ... connected by a copulative conjunction [etc.]". There is no doubt in my mind that the sense of "the copula" is "to be". This is what I was taught as a student, and I have checked a few dictionaries and textbooks. The confusion arises because dvandvas are called "copulative compounds" and MW uses the unfortunate phrase "copulative conjunction", referring to "and". It seems clear that the writer of this OED entry has been misled by all these uses of the word "copulative" into thinking that the sense implied between the members of a dvandva was "the copula". This is quite wrong, of course. We all know what a dvandva is (nice English illustrations, Brendan; thank you), and it's not expressing a relationship of subject and predicate, or substantives in apposition, which is what one would have to assume from reading the OED. I rest my case. Dominik From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Fri Nov 30 13:47:37 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 13:47:37 +0000 Subject: OED Message-ID: <161227014927.23782.12760393706264568905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One postscript: I have observed before that the OUP has a tendency to follow Monier Williams, and especially his dictionary, slavishly, in their other dictionaries. Julia Leslie, who wrote all the Indic entries in the OUP's Reference Dictionary, had to argue strongly with the editors about some definitions because they didn't want to budge from MW. They seem to grant him an authority far beyond what most Sanskritists would accord him. Perhaps because they publish his dictionary too? But nobody seems to have told them how much care must be taken in using MW, and that paradoxically you have to have a good knowledge of the language to use him safely. Dominik From ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL Fri Nov 30 13:53:26 1990 From: ucgadkw at UK.AC.UCL (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 13:53:26 +0000 Subject: programs (dates and eras) Message-ID: <161227014929.23782.2835339728547566691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This sounds interesting. If the tools don't already exist, I wouldn't > mind writing a C programme, given Harry's notes and enough community > interest to test it properly. > > more important: for some time I dream about a program converting > > oriental dates (vikrama; gupta; hejra etc) into dates of our era, taking > > fully into account that some Hindu dates are "wrong" and proposing > > a range of dates for doubtful data. I am not capable to develop such a > > program. But maybe someone of the group wants to try his luck? I have > > collected articles and books giving all sorts of formulas for such > > conversions, which I could communicate. > > Harry > > Brett, I would give my right arm for a program of the type Harry describes. To be able to feed in data like "Friday 11 suklapaksa of Asadha, sam 1617" and have it converted to the European era and verified, and a nearest guess made if the thing didn't check (assuming that scribes might be more likely to have the day of the week right than the tithi). Please, please go ahead! Prof. David Pingree is a foremost authority on these dating systems, and is well up on issues like where Pillai's tables are wrong. I would be delighted to help by testing, or in any other way. Dominik