[INDOLOGY] Fwd: Mbh stratification

Artur Karp karp at uw.edu.pl
Sun Oct 28 12:55:33 EDT 2018


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
Date: 2018-10-28 17:50 GMT+01:00
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
To: "McGrath, Kevin" <kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu>


I, quite to the contrary, am not convinced.

While determining the sequence of the epic's strata, I would instead search
for the mentions (direct or indirect) for the datable indicators of
material development. Such as networks of roads, novel technical and
architectural solutions (among them the Buddhist and the Jaina forms), use
of metals (especially iron), the introduction of new, non-native plant and
animal species.

Datable - because known well to archaeology.

I would also search for the mentions of uncharacteristic relations linking
people belonging to different communities/social strata. Such as 'mixed'
marriages and the appearance of the new type of heroes (as Astika) willing
to serve as mediators between the 'human' and the 'demonic' peoples. Which,
indeed, would place them in the later strata of the text.





2018-10-28 13:32 GMT+01:00 McGrath, Kevin <kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu>:

>
>  Dear Oliver,
>
>
> This is most interesting and I look forward to reading your MBh. essay in
> IIJ.
>
>
> The problem is with "2", it would seem, and the grounds for consistent
> inference which these various 'secondary literatures' employ.
>
>
> Relating "1" with "2" must be so tentative, no?
>
>
> Ideally on should use the primary text, in this case the MBh., as a source
> of dating.
>
>
> Anyway, let me read your essay now ...
>
> Thanks, and with very best wishes, from,
>
>
>   Kevin.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 28, 2018 8:09 AM
> *To:* Artur Karp
> *Cc:* indology
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
>
>
> Dear Arthur,
>
> one possible explanation runs as follows:
>
> (1) Linguistic features: Every text from the DCS is split into sections of
> equal sizes (say 100 lines). Frequencies of approx. 1,000 linguistic
> features such as the accusative, certain Sandhi, metre, ... are counted in
> each of these sections.
>
> (2) Dates: I collect approximate dates for each text from secondary
> literature. They include "exact" ones, as for some texts after 1000 CE, as
> well as quite wide temporal ranges for Puranas (and almost all the rest of
> Sanskrit literature).
>
> (3) Now, I use a mathematical model (neural networks) that tries to
> predict the approximate dates (2) on the basis of the feature frequencies
> (1). Basically the same as is done, for instance, for weather forecasting:
> Collect some information about the weather of today, and try to predict the
> temperature in the next 24 hrs.
>
> The uncertainties arising from (2) are hopefully handled in a follow-up of
> the follow-up, which I am currently working on.
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> On 28/10/2018 11:51, Artur Karp wrote:
>
> Dear Oliver,
>
> As a retiree of - already - some seniority, I have difficulty in ingesting
> phraseological solids, such as <<neural networks digesting all kinds of
> linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them>>.
>
> Could you please explain what hides behind these scholarly terms?
>
> Regards,
>
> Artur
>
>
> 2018-10-28 9:45 GMT+01:00 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> Dear all,
>
> just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and
> others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting all
> kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them)
> seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the Mbh. A
> detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not too far
> away from some outcomes of philological research:
>  * BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE
> (rather 200 CE++)
>  * Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> ---
> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 Düsseldorf, IVS Zürich
>
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