[INDOLOGY] Second-syllable rhyming in Dravidian

Jean-Luc Chevillard jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
Sun Aug 9 10:34:45 EDT 2015


Dear Professor Paturi,

I did not promise to send "massive evidence" to the list :-)

What I look forward to is exchanging information with you on a private 
basis :-)

As a (hopefully) final post,
let me just say that after reading your message,
I opened at random the anthology called /Puṟaṉāṉūṟu/ (with which I am 
sure you are familiar) and had a look at the following poems:

Puṟam 90 (a 13-line poem, starting with "uṭaivaḷai kaṭuppa ...")

Puṟam 86 (a 6-line poem, starting with "ciṟṟil naṟṟūṇ ...")

Puṟam 83 (a 6-line poem, starting with "aṭipuṉai toṭukaḻal ...")

A typical line (i.e. /aṭi/) in those poems possesses four /cīr/-s (i.e. 
"metrical feet"), which we can call 1a, 1b, 1c & 1d (for the 1st line), 
2a, 2b, 2c &2d (for the 2nd line), etc.

In those three poems, you can easily verify, by consulting an edition,
that we have

**********************
inter-line SSR (alias /etukai/)

in poem 90,
between 1a and 2a,
between 4a and 5a,
between 8a and 9a, (consonant only)
between 10a and 11a,
between 12a and 13a,



in poem 86,
between 5a and 6a,

NB: there is also full repetion between 2a and 3a, which is more than 
/etukai/,



in poem 83,
between 5a and 6a,

**********************
intra-line SSR (alias /etukai/)

in poem 86,
between 1a and 1c,

*******************
combination of inter-line and intra-line SSR

in poem 83

between 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b and possibly 3a
(NB the etukai is stronger between 1a and 2a, as you will see in the text)


All of this is of course irregular,
if we compare it with later (bhakti) poetry where inter-line /etukai/ is 
somehow compulsory

Best wishes
and aurevoir

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard
  (preparing for the start of the 13th CTSS, TOMORROW
	["http://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=853"]
	in Pondicherry)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956"




On 09/08/2015 18:46, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
> Looking forward for your pointers to massive evidences.
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
> <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Professor Paturi,
>
>     briefly
>
>     (1) the "is not true" predicate applied to the portion of your
>     message which I quoted in my message.
>
>     (2) thanks for confirming that you cannot provide "massive evidence"
>     from Tamil literature
>
>     (3) I am certainly VERY interested in learning more about Telugu
>     meters and obtaining authentic information from you on that topic.
>     If the forum has had enough concerning metrics (which some people
>     consider as a dry subject ;-), we can also have private exchanges
>     about the topic ...
>
>     (4) I also had the earlier statement by S. Palaniappan in mind when
>     I was referring to the lenses provided by Yāpparuṅkalam and
>     Yāpparuṅkalak kārikai and you might remember that I immediately
>     commented on his message and tried to suggest that Indira Peterson
>     may have referred to the more frequent usage
>
>     I believe I should not post more today :-)
>
>     Yours with every good wish
>
>     -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS) (in Pondicherry)
>
>
>     "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
>     "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
>     "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>
>     On 09/08/2015 18:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>
>         Dear Dr Jean- Luc Chevillard,
>
>         Your "This is not true!" probably is to my
>
>              >4. For a Dravidian '*origin*' of SSR to be considered the
>         following are the hurdles:
>
>
>              >a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line
>         and the SSR of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of
>         the south or in cases such as gOpIgItam of >Sanskrit,  is
>         inter-line.
>
>         Thanks for the examples of inter-line SSR from tolkAppiyam.
>
>         Does your
>
>               > If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil
>         literature
>              in order to support your statement, please do
>
>         refer to my
>
>
>              >SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line ?
>
>         Your position with regard to this is
>
>              >I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>
>         So you are asking me to provide me to provide massive number of
>         examples
>         for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. Did I get you
>         right?
>
>         -No. I am not in a position right now to provide massive number of
>         examples for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. I
>         need time
>         to browse through the corpus I have to see if this is true with
>         ancient
>         Tamil literature.
>
>         All that I can tell you readily with authenticity is that in Telugu,
>         which is one of the Dravidian languages, intra-line SSR is part
>         of the
>         rules of all the native verse meters but as an alternative to
>         intra-line
>         FSR. The rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the
>         syllable
>         count in Sanskrit meters. Since it is part of rule, naturally
>         there are
>         massive number of examples in Telugu for intra-line SSR , spread all
>         over the Telugu verse literature employing native Telugu meters.
>
>         Sri Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan in
>
>         http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-July/041805.html
>
>         says,
>
>         The second syllable rhyme can also occur within a line in different
>         patterns. Assuming there are are four feet in a line, the
>         second-syllable rhyming can occur in different patterns such as
>         between
>         feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1, 3, and 4; 1, 2,
>         and 4;
>         and 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>
>         So the Tamil situation is similar to Telugu at least in so far
>         as 'The
>         rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the syllable
>         count in
>         Sanskrit meters'.
>
>         If inter-line SSR is so massive in ancient Tamil literature,
>         origin of
>         the inter-line SSR in Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters can
>         probably
>         be traced to an older Dravidian situation. That becoming a
>         strict rule
>         for Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters could be specific to
>         Telugu
>         prosody.
>
>         If inter-line SSR in ancient Tamil lyrical literature is proved
>         to be a
>         regular lyrical meter device, the gOpIgItam's SSR can safely get
>         connected to a Tamil or Dravidian origin.
>
>         Quantity rules are rigidly ingrained in Sanskrit meters; so one may
>         explain the quantity correspondence of initial vowel in the SSR of
>         gOpIgItam in terms of the rigidly ingrained vowel quantity
>         pattern rules
>         in Sanskrit meters. That is another problem area in the topic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
>         <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
>         <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>
>         <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
>         <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>>> wrote:
>
>              Dear Professor Paturi,
>
>              This is not true!
>
>              SSR seems to happen frequently as "inter-line" in Ancient Tamil
>              literature.
>
>              I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>
>              See the characterizations (taken from the Tolkāppiyam),
>         which I gave
>              yesterday in:
>
>
>         "http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041916.html"
>
>              See also for instance, this nice example from the Tolkāppiyam's
>              characterization of the "verb" (viṉai).
>
>              TC195i
>              viṉaiyeṉap paṭuvatu vēṟṟumai koḷḷātu
>              niṉaiyuṅ kālaik kālamoṭu tōṉṟum.
>
>              We have etukai between "viṉai" and "niṉaiyum", which are
>         both at the
>              beginning of a line
>
>              (I could provide similar examples if you are not convinced ...)
>
>              Part of the problem lies in the fact that, people tend to
>         view the
>              rules of ancient Tamil literature through the lenses of
>         medieval
>              treatises such as the Yāpparuṅkalam and Yāpparuṅkalak kārikai
>              (which provide a very rich terminology for many marginal
>         examples of
>              intra-line SSR)
>
>
>              If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil
>         literature in
>              order to support your statement, please do
>
>              Your with every good wish
>
>
>              -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS)
>
>
>
>              "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
>              "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
>              "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>              On 09/08/2015 16:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>
>                  a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is
>         intra-line and
>                  the SSR
>                  of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of the
>         south or
>                  in cases
>                  such as gOpIgItam of Sanskrit, is inter-line.
>
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>         Hyderabad-500044
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044





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